What happens when a 9-year-old's sense of justice grows into a $2.2 billion investment banking career dedicated to employee ownership? In this episode, I sit down with John Hoffmire, research associate at Oxford's Center for Mutual and Co-owned Business and founder of an investment banking firm that facilitated massive ESOP transactions. John shares his unconventional journey from working with displaced farm workers in California to becoming a leading voice in employee ownership finance, revealing why he chose the challenging path of making employee ownership deals bankable.

We explore the financial realities behind employee ownership transitions, from the struggle to raise capital for EO-focused funds to the critical role of "bankable" CEOs in deal success. John opens up about the contradictions of working in high finance while staying true to his mission of economic justice, and introduces a revolutionary concept for expanding employee ownership globally through nonprofit surplus-sharing models. This conversation is packed with hard-won insights for anyone curious about the financial mechanics that make alternative exits possible.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
 01:51 Early Career Path to Employee Ownership
 02:10 From California Farm Workers to Finance
 05:03 Why John Considers Himself "Lucky"
 06:53 From Bain & Company to Investment Banking
 08:01 The Discomfort of Corporate Contradictions
 09:48 The 9-Year-Old's Revelation About Poverty
 11:25 Why Investment Banking for Employee Ownership
 20:55 Employee Ownership in Countries Without Tax Support
 24:01 Nonprofit Surplus-Sharing as EO Alternative
 28:28 The Dignity Principle in Employee Ownership
 33:36 Transition from Practitioner to Academic
 37:08 Policy Advice: Start with One Case Study
 39:53 Quick-Fire Questions
 41:37 Contact Information and Wrap-Up

Key Takeaways:

• How childhood experiences with poverty and injustice can shape a lifetime career in economic democracy
• The fundamental challenge of raising capital for employee ownership funds when you're giving away majority control
• Why "bankable" leadership matters more than perfect financial structures in EO transitions
• The critical importance of dignity as a first principle in employee ownership design
• Why starting with one successful case study beats creating perfect policy frameworks
• The role of community organizers in building sustainable employee ownership ecosystems
• How going public became an alternative solution when private fundraising failed

About John Hoffmire:

John Hoffmire is a research associate at the University of Oxford Center for Mutual and Co-owned Business and director of the Center on Business and Poverty. He holds a PhD from Stanford and co-hosts the annual Oxford Symposium on Employee Ownership. John founded an investment banking firm that facilitated approximately $2.2 billion in ESOP transactions and has dedicated his career to promoting inclusive economic development through innovative financial structures and employee ownership.

Connect with John:

Website: cobap.org
Linkedin: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/john-hoffmire-5999621

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - [email protected] 

What happens when you flip the traditional business pyramid upside down? In this episode, I sit down with Ian Hiscock, founder of IHC Limited and a seasoned voice in the UK employee ownership sector. After 30 years at the iconic John Lewis Partnership, Ian now helps companies navigate the complex transition to employee ownership as an independent trustee and advisor. He shares the psychological shifts, leadership challenges, and cultural transformations that make employee ownership work—or fail.

We explore the fundamental mindset changes required from both leaders and employees when transitioning to shared ownership. Ian unpacks his "Four Cs" framework for successful employee engagement, discusses why employee ownership is actually the "purest form of capitalism," and reveals why the transition can be harder for leaders than employees. From managing through tough times to creating psychological safety, this conversation is packed with practical insights for any founder considering an alternative exit strategy.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
 01:18 Ian's Journey at John Lewis Partnership
 03:39 Understanding the Philosophy Behind Employee Ownership
 06:31 Balancing Commercial Success with Employee Benefits
 11:49 Protecting Business Independence Through EO
 12:59 The Psychological Contract in Employee Ownership
 15:23 Inverting the Leadership Pyramid
 18:48 The Four Cs: Clarity, Context, Consistency, Contribution
 22:25 Creating Psychological Safety for Employee Voice
 24:58 Who Struggles More: Leaders or Employees?
 29:46 Employee Ownership During Tough Times
 34:18 The Twin Tracks: Culture and Financial Reward
 36:16 Quick Fire Questions: Leadership Inspirations
 41:28 Advice for Business Owners on the Fence
 43:06 How to Connect with Ian

Key Takeaways:

• Leaders must psychologically shift to serving daily colleagues who now own the business
• The "Four Cs" framework: Clarity, Context, Consistency, and Contribution
• Employee ownership is pure capitalism—spreading ownership benefits, not rejecting commercial success
• Leaders often struggle more than employees due to emotional obligations to colleagues
• Psychological safety must exist organization-wide, not just in specific voice sessions
• Two tracks required: developing ownership culture while ensuring financial rewards

About Ian Hiscock:

Ian Hiscock is the founder of IHC Limited and a leading voice in the UK employee ownership sector. After spending 30 years at the John Lewis Partnership, including roles as an employee trustee and chair of democratically elected bodies, Ian now serves as an independent trustee on multiple Employee Ownership Trusts. He helps businesses transition their governance, culture, and trust structures toward employee ownership, drawing on deep experience in both the philosophical foundations and practical realities of shared ownership models.

Connect with Ian:

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/ian-hiscock-926437137/
Website: https://ihclimited.co.uk 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - [email protected] 

Host Andy Farquharson closes out Day 3 of the Oxford Symposium on Employee Ownership with quick hits from the field. From the human side of ownership and employee wellbeing, to governance trade-offs in one-person-one-vote systems, to financing growth via ESOP-style leverage and M&A, this mini-episode captures what’s working, what’s hard, and what’s next for scaling EO worldwide.

Key takeaways

• Center the human/leadership dimension. Ownership mindsets, dignity, and employee wellbeing must be designed—not assumed.
• “Pilot first, policy next.” Start with a success case to build proof and momentum before pushing for policy.
• Governance is a muscle. One-person-one-vote can tilt short-term; boards and education must balance long-term stewardship.
• Finance drives scale. ESOP-style leverage, pension alignment, and M&A can accelerate sector growth when done responsibly.
• Bottom-up pathways matter. Grassroots entrepreneurship—e.g., women-led cooperatives—can transition into EO and broaden impact.

Chapters

• 00:00 — Host intro: Reflections from Blenheim; empathy, employee voice, and mental health in EO.
• 00:53 — Chantal Carr: From co-ops to EO; start with one success; ambition: a women’s co-op in Kenya transitions to EO.
• 03:26 — Robert Postlethwaite: Candid governance realities; one-person-one-vote and balancing short- vs long-term incentives (Basque case).
• 04:20 — Glen Dott: Financing innovation; interest in ESOP leverage, sector growth via M&A, potential role of AI.
• 06:53 — Outro: What’s next on Alternative Exit: deeper interviews with global EO leaders.

Notable quotes

• Andy: “Let’s design with empathy—employee voice, mental health, and wellbeing are part of the ownership equation.”
• Chantal: “Go do it first. Build the success case—policy follows evidence.”
• Robert: “Be honest about governance—employees often favor the short term; structures must protect the long view.”
• Glen: “To reach the next level, we should learn from ESOP financing and unlock more M&A activity.”

Who should listen

Owners exploring succession; EO practitioners; policymakers; advisors; leaders building resilient, values-driven companies.

Resources & mentions

• Oxford Symposium on Employee Ownership (event)
• Hope Arising; Disruptive Giving (Chantal)
• Postlethwaite Solicitors (Robert)
• Scottish Enterprise / Co-operative Development Scotland (Glen)

Call to action

• Subscribe to Alternative Exit for deeper, long-form EO conversations.
• Share this episode with owners or advisors considering employee ownership.
• Connect with us for case studies and practical transition toolkits.

Join Andy Farquharson as he hosts a special series live from the Oxford Symposium on Employee Ownership. Day two was filled with deep dives into various forms of employee ownership and impact investing, featuring insightful conversations with industry leaders.

Key Highlights:

• Smitha Mankat shares her dual role in grassroots work with artisans in India and as an independent director on corporate boards. She discusses the potential for broad-based employee ownership in India. 
• Ita McMahon from Castlefield Investment Partners reflects on the importance of democratizing wealth and the innovative practices of John Lewis in employee ownership. 
• Callum expresses his amazement at the supportive community and the potential for pension reform in the UK to support employee ownership. 
• Barry Horner highlights the growing international movement in employee ownership and the exciting potential for expansion in the UK. 
• Michael Golden discusses the rapid implementation of employee ownership in Slovenia and the potential for Canada to perfect the model with profit-sharing elements.

Conclusion: The symposium continues to be a platform for exchanging ideas and fostering innovation in employee ownership. Stay tuned for more insights as the event progresses.

Hashtags: #EmployeeOwnership #Innovation #OxfordSymposium #ImpactInvesting

Join us as we delve into the highlights of the Employee Ownership Symposium, featuring insights from industry leaders like 

• Karen McGuire, Chair of Employee Ownership Ireland, and 
• Pascal Nieuwland-Jansen, Director of the Netherlands Participation Institute.
• Frank Cumberbatch, Bader Philanthropies
• Jone Nolte, General Manager ASLE
• Dr. Gonzalo Hernandez, Professor and researcher ITESO

 Discover the latest innovations and the growing momentum of employee ownership models across the globe.

Key Highlights:

Karen McGuire shares her excitement about the growing awareness and application of employee ownership models in Northern Ireland. Pascal Nieuwland-Jansen discusses the organic evolution of employee ownership and its potential as the primary business model for new companies. Jone Nolte from the Basque Country emphasizes the importance of legislative innovation in Spain to promote employee ownership. Frank Cumberbatch highlights the cultural values at Bader Philanthropies and the wealth-building potential of employee ownership for low-income individuals.

Hashtags: #EmployeeOwnership #Innovation #BusinessModels

What happens when a founder realizes they're no longer the most passionate person in the room about their business's future? In this episode, I sit down with Chris Maslin, who made the bold decision to transition his accounting firm Maslin to an Employee Ownership Trust (EOT) in 2021. Chris opens up about the personal moment when he recognized his team's excitement for growth had surpassed his own, and how this realization sparked a journey toward employee ownership that would transform both his business and his life.

We explore the messy realities of transitioning ownership and leadership simultaneously—something Chris admits they "did a fairly bad job of" initially. From navigating the 30-30-40 rule of employee engagement to creating a hybrid ownership model that combines EOT benefits with direct share ownership, Chris shares hard-won insights about what really works in employee ownership. Now helping other small businesses through GO EO, he brings both founder and advisor perspectives to the challenges of making employee ownership accessible and affordable.

Timestamps:

00:50 Introduction and Chris's EOT Journey
03:21 What Sparked the Transition to Employee Ownership 
05:05 The Challenge of Transitioning Ownership and Leadership
08:23 Employee Engagement and the 30-30-40 Rule 
12:25 The Reality of Employee Mindset in Ownership Models 
17:45 Creating a Hybrid EOT Model with Direct Share Ownership 
23:46 Advising Others: Common Questions from Business Owners 
29:46 EOT Sales vs Traditional Trade Sales 
32:33 Preparing for Employee Ownership Transition 
35:06 Advice for Business Owners on the Fence

Key Takeaways:

• Why losing passion for growth can be a signal it's time to transition ownership
• The importance of clearly defining roles and responsibilities during leadership transitions
• The 30-30-40 rule: 30% of employees will embrace ownership, 30% can be engaged with effort, 40% view it as just a job
• How a hybrid EOT model can balance collective ownership with individual stake and accountability
• Why direct share ownership creates both upside potential and downside risk for key employees
• The advantages of EOT sales: control over process, minimal haggling, and tax benefits
• Common valuation challenges when owners have unrealistic expectations about business worth
• The importance of having a clear post-sale purpose and role definition
• Why EOT works best for founders who genuinely care about staff and long-term business future

About Chris Maslin:

Chris Maslin transitioned his accounting firm Maslin to an Employee Ownership Trust in 2021, serving as both founder and employee trustee during the transition. Now working with GO EO, he helps small businesses (5-50 employees) navigate affordable EOT transitions. Chris brings a unique perspective having experienced employee ownership from both sides—as a business owner making the transition and as an advisor helping others through the process.

Connect with Chris Maslin:

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/chris--maslin/
Website: go-eo.uk 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/   
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq   
Website - https://abettermonday.me/ 
Email - [email protected] 

Alternative Exit #031 | How to Exit Without Leaving: Tim Rettig’s Playbook for Purposeful Ownership

What happens when you witness the worst possible exit scenario and vow never to repeat it? In this episode, I sit down with Tim Rettig, CEO of Intrust IT, to explore his deliberate 8-year journey from sole ownership to employee ownership. Tim shares the pivotal moment in a Texas manufacturing plant that changed everything—watching employees discover their company had been sold without warning, their owner vanished overnight, and their futures thrown into uncertainty. This traumatic experience sparked Tim's commitment to creating a radically different legacy through employee ownership.

We dive deep into Tim's methodical approach to ESOP transition, starting with his father's successful employee ownership story and evolving into his own strategic implementation. From introducing open-book management and the Great Game of Business to building a culture where 70 employees understand financials and forecast P&L line items weekly, Tim reveals how transparency and education became the foundation for shared ownership. This conversation is packed with practical insights on financial literacy training, daily huddles, quarterly bonuses, and the governance structures that make employee ownership thrive.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
 02:48 The Flexibility and Complexity of ESOP Structures
 08:28 The Catalyst: Witnessing a Traumatic Business Sale
 16:23 Setting the 8-Year ESOP Goal and Employee Involvement
 20:51 The Accounting Game: Teaching Financial Literacy
 25:42 Cultural Changes Moving to 100% Employee Ownership
 32:05 Innovation from Employee Ownership: The AI Security Solution
 34:07 Quick Fire Questions and Final Advice

Key Takeaways:

• How witnessing a traumatic business sale in Texas became the catalyst for Tim's ESOP commitment
• Why announcing ESOP goals 8 years in advance gets employees invested in the journey
• The power of the "Accounting Game" workbook to teach financial literacy in just 8 hours
• How 35 of 70 employees forecasting P&L line items gives real-time financial visibility
• Why the 30% ESOP threshold enables 1042 tax-deferred exchanges for business owners
• How employee-driven innovation led to an AI-powered cybersecurity solution becoming a new product
• The governance shift from advisory board to external board with firing power at majority ownership

About Tim Rettig:

Tim Rettig is the CEO of Intrust IT, a technology services company he founded in 1992 and transitioned to 30% employee ownership in 2019. Currently in due diligence to become 100% employee-owned, Tim has set an ambitious goal to create 10,000 employee owners in his lifetime. He's also the interim owner of Staff Nation, which he plans to transition to employee ownership as well, continuing the family legacy started by his father's successful ESOP transition in the early 2000s.

Connect with Tim Rettig:

Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/timrettig/
Website: intrust-it.com/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - [email protected] 

What happens when a traditional exit strategy feels like value destruction rather than creation? In this episode, I sit down with Barry Horner, co-founder and executive chair of Paradigm North, one of the UK's leading financial planning firms. Barry shares his transformative journey from exploring trade sales to pioneering employee ownership in 2019, and how he recently completed the leadership transition piece of the puzzle by stepping back as CEO while remaining as executive chair.

We dive deep into the practical realities of building an employee-owned business over six years. From managing deferred consideration payments to restructuring governance models, Barry unpacks the lessons learned, challenges faced, and unexpected benefits of choosing employee ownership. This conversation is packed with honest insights about leadership transition, stakeholder management, and why protecting culture and client relationships ultimately trumped financial maximization.

Key Takeaways:

• Why Barry's exploration of trade sales felt like "value destruction" rather than creation
• How wide share ownership (20 employees) complicated but ultimately enhanced the EO transition
• The strategic decision to communicate EO plans 18 months early to build trust and excitement
• Why a nine-person trust board was too big and how they streamlined to five with independent chairs
• The critical importance of aligning meeting cadences between main board and trust board decisions
• How "partner voice" groups separate operational input from trust board governance responsibilities
• Why deferred consideration payments create healthy tension around growth vs. payout priorities
• The unexpected client acquisition benefits of being publicly employee-owned
• How leadership transition and ownership transition are two distinct processes requiring separate focus

About Barry Horner:

Barry is the co-founder and executive chair of Paradigm North, a 93-person financial planning firm that transitioned to employee ownership in 2019. With over two decades of building values-driven businesses, Barry recently completed his leadership transition by stepping back as CEO while maintaining his role as board chair. He's an active champion of the employee ownership community and advocates for sustainable, purpose-led business models that prioritize long-term stakeholder value.

Connect with Barry:

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/barry-horner
Website: https://paradigmnorth.co.uk 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - [email protected] 

What happens when a strategy consultant turns social entrepreneur and then becomes a champion for employee ownership? In this episode, I sit down with Mike Brady, co-founder of 40 Million Owners, to explore his fascinating journey from PWC strategy work to pioneering open hiring at Greyston Bakery, and now to scaling employee ownership across America's lower middle market. Mike shares how his experience creating inclusive cultures taught him that providing access to jobs isn't enough—we need to create pathways to wealth building and true ownership.

We dive deep into the practical challenges facing the "silver tsunami" of retiring business owners and why employee ownership offers solutions that go far beyond traditional succession planning. From the capital structures needed to make deals competitive, to the cultural shifts required for successful ownership transitions, Mike unpacks the real work happening on the ground. This conversation is packed with insights for anyone curious about how employee ownership can scale beyond aligned sellers to become a mainstream business solution.

Key Takeaways:

• Why workforce development alone isn't enough—quality jobs with wealth-building opportunities are essential for systemic change
• How the "silver tsunami" creates dual challenges: business succession and labor shortages that employee ownership uniquely addresses
• The competitive advantage of employee ownership in attracting talent as labor markets tighten
• Why successful EO transitions require both adequate capital and strong operators, not just aligned sellers
• How existing ESOPs can become powerful acquirers, creating an ecosystem for scaling employee ownership
• The importance of transparency and "loving action" in building authentic ownership cultures
• Why market-based solutions are crucial for employee ownership to compete with private equity and search funds
• How the lower middle market ($3-50M enterprise value) represents the biggest opportunity for employee ownership growth

About Mike Brady:

Mike Brady is co-founder of 40 Million Owners, an organization dedicated to scaling employee ownership across America's lower middle market. Previously, he served as CEO of Greyston Bakery, where he pioneered award-winning open hiring practices and delivered a TED talk on inclusive employment. Mike began his career in strategy at PwC, had a tech exit with Fast, and currently serves as an operating partner at Southeast Acquisition Capital. He's recognized as a leader in impact entrepreneurship and workforce development innovation.

Connect with Mike Brady:

LinkedIn:https://linkedin.com/in/mikebrady40million/
40 Million Owners: https://40millionowners.com/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website -https://abettermonday.me/
Email - [email protected] 

Episode Summary:

In this episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy Farquharson is joined by Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller, a seasoned expert in workforce research and organizational development. Ellen, the founder and CEO of the Workforce and Organizational Research Center (Work), shares her expertise on the role of employee ownership in creating better workplaces. With a focus on the link between quality jobs and employee engagement, she discusses the pivotal role of leadership in shaping a culture of ownership within companies. Ellen explains how operational practices, such as giving employees more autonomy and fostering collaborative management, can ignite an ownership mindset, leading to better business outcomes. She also provides a deep dive into the scientific tools and research methods her organization uses to help businesses track progress and make informed decisions about cultivating an ownership culture.

Ellen challenges the traditional view of ownership, emphasizing that the culture around ownership is as important as the financial incentives tied to it. She outlines practical strategies that businesses can use to integrate ownership principles into their daily operations, fostering an environment where employees feel both responsible and invested in the company's success. This episode is a must-listen for leaders and business owners who want to build more engaged, loyal, and high-performing teams.

Key Takeaways:

• Ellen’s journey from HR consulting to founding WORK
• How academic research can be applied to improve business outcomes
• The connection between employee ownership and job quality
• Social exchange theory and its impact on ownership mindsets
• How to create an ownership mindset through management and autonomy
• The importance of measuring ownership behaviors with the Ownership Impact Index
• The role of leadership and communication in fostering ownership cultures
• Steps to implement an ownership culture through incremental changes
• The role of employee ownership in preserving a company’s legacy
• The various structures of employee ownership and their benefits

About Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller:

Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller is a thought leader in the field of workforce and organizational research. As the founder and CEO of the Workforce and Organizational Research Center (Work), she is committed to advancing research that links employee ownership with job quality and organizational success. Ellen’s work combines over three decades of experience in human capital strategy, research, and business transformation. She focuses on the intersection of academic research and practical application, using evidence-based methodologies to help organizations foster ownership cultures that drive business outcomes. Ellen’s insights are invaluable for companies looking to implement meaningful organizational change and create lasting improvements in employee engagement and performance.

Connect with Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller
Website: https://www.worcimpact.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellenfrankmiller/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   
Website - https://abettermonday.me/   
Email - [email protected]