This episode is one to listen to and treasure - and certainly bookmark to share with colleagues now and in the future. No matter where you are on your journey with using generative AI in education, there's something in this episode for you to apply in the classroom or leading others in the use of AI.

There are many people to thank for making this episode possible, including the extraordinary guests:

Matt Esterman - Director of Innovation & Partnerships at Our Lady of Mercy College Parramatta. An educational leader who's making things happen with AI in education in Australia, Matt created and ran the conference where these interviews happened. He emphasises the importance of passionate educators coming together to improve education for students. He shares his main takeaways from the conference and the need to rethink educational practices for the success of students. Follow Matt on Twitter and LinkedIn

Roshan Da Silva - Dean of Digital Learning and Innovation at The King's School - shares his experience of using AI in both administration and teaching. He discusses the evolution of AI in education and how it has advanced from simple question-response interactions to more sophisticated prompts and research assistance. Roshan emphasises the importance of teaching students how to use AI effectively and proper sourcing of information. Follow Roshan on Twitter 

Siobhan James - Teacher Librarian at Epping Boys High School - introduces her journey of exploring AI in education. She shares her personal experimentation with AI tools and services, striving to find innovative ways to engage students and enhance learning. Siobhan shares her excitement about the potential of AI beyond traditional written subjects and its application in other areas. Follow Siobhan on LinkedIn

Mark Liddell - Head of Learning and Innovation from St Luke's Grammar School - highlights the importance of supporting teachers on their AI journey. He explains the need to differentiate learning opportunities for teachers and address their fears and misconceptions. Mark shares his insights on personalised education, assessment, and the role AI can play in enhancing both. Follow Mark on Twitter and LinkedIn

Anthony England - Director of Innovative Learning Technologies at Pymble Ladies College - discusses his extensive experimentation with AI in education. He emphasises the need to challenge traditional assessments and embrace AI's ability to provide valuable feedback and support students' growth and mastery. Anthony also explains the importance of inspiring curiosity and passion in students, rather than focusing solely on grades. And we're not sure which is our favourite quote from the interviews, but Anthony's "Haters gonna hate, cheater's gonna cheat" is up there with his "Pushing students into beige" Follow Anthony on Twitter and LinkedIn

 

Special thanks to Jo Dunbar and the team at Western Sydney University's Education Knowledge Network who hosted the conference, and provided Dan and I with a special space to create our temporary podcast studio for the day

 

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 7 Episode: 4

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

 

 

 

Welcome to the AI and education podcast. Now, we've got something pretty special for you over the next three episodes cuz we're going to hear from a group of really smart people. So, that's not you and I, Dan. There were a great group of people at the AI education conference that was the run and created by Matt Estim. and hosted by the education team at Western Sydney University. It was a such a high energy event. I had about 130 teachers, education leaders spending all the day hearing about and talking about the pedagogical aspects of AI in education. So they talked about the educational implications. They didn't really spend that much time talking about all the twists and turns in technology that we were talking about in last week's podcast. It was more about what would happen in the classroom. Yeah. Absolutely. So I think our listeners should settle in because I think we're going to bring a lot of the series together in some shorter interviews from different schools in this episode. So next week we'll have a longer interview with a brains behind the conference Mr. Matt Estman himself. But this week we're going to really hear from several of the speakers from K12 and the week after I think Ray we're going to put some bits together around higher education as well. We've got a lot to get through today. Let's crack it. Yeah, lots of voices to hear. here from schools. So we've got Anthony England from Pimble Ladies College, Siobhan James from Eping uh Boys High School, Roshanda Silva from King School, Mark Liddell from St. Luke's. But Dan, we should start with the man in the moment, the conference convenor extraordinaire Matt Estman from Our Lady of Mercy College. Hi Matt, welcome to the podcast today. How you doing? Yeah, really well, thanks. Really well. What an amazing event. It's been so good and we've had so many great people from different areas represented different uh parts to the sector. What were your main takeaways? Cuz you were in a lot of the panels and everything. Yeah. Oh, look, main takeaways are when you get a bunch of interested, passionate people together, then you can talk about pretty much anything, go anywhere, but everyone's here for the same purpose, which is to just do better by our kids. And just because today was themed on AI, I think a lot of the the conversation came back to success for students and working with young people and rethinking what we're doing for them. So, yeah, I was I walked away really inspired, been great. Did Did you learn anything new. I'm sure there's lots of things, right? Yeah. I guess perspectives like what we talked about earlier, you know, that idea of hearing from people in say primary or higher education and what they're thinking about because I guess my echo chamber is secondary education and Australian secondary education. So, it was really good to hear from other states and from those other sectors as well. Yeah. I I thought it was also interesting picking up on the variation in adoption. So, we we had some people that were all in like you or all in. And then other people that even though this is an AI and education conference, they didn't really use it that much. It was very new to them and they were in sponge mode. They were just absorbing what other people were doing. And then in some of the conversations then people were very cautious about what their colleagues might think. You know, they were happy using chat GPT to do things but they knew that their colleagues wouldn't be. And that kind of human aspect of the change came out a lot for me and I think a lot of people worried about things perhaps about perceptions rather than reality as well. People worried about what their boss might think or worried about what systems might think whereas actually they don't think about it yet and whether people are using it on their personal devices to test things out and really explore but then in their work world having to be very very cautious or applying a self-perception that they have to be cautious whereas actually if they turned around to the person next to them and said hey here's something I tried their minds would be and they and they'd be have a really cool conversation about that. So, it's interesting. Yeah. And also I picked up on people saying, "Oh, wouldn't it be good if the department did this for us?" So, things like report writing, you know, there was obviously a demand to have have their lives made easier, but looking above them for organizations to to take that pain away. But I don't think we've ever had something that was individually driven recently than this because most learning technologies or technologies in schools are are given to you, right? Like you're given a device, you're given a room that has particular equipment or whatever, given particular software to apply. This it you can be at any school in any context doing any job and pick up your own smartphone and just try some stuff that relates to that job, but nobody at work needs to know about. So, it's a totally different environment we're working in. Yeah. Well, this this been phenomenal today and this podcast episode is a testament to your uh you know, tenacity to bring all these people together because I think if we read We want to change and I do think Australia does have the opportunity to do it. As I was saying to you earlier, I think we big enough that we can make a difference and an impact, but small enough that and agile enough and smart enough that we can actually do it. Wow, Dan. Small enough, agile enough, smart enough. Hey Dan, two out of three isn't bad. Matt's extraordinarily wise, isn't he Dan? I saw that at the conference and there's a lot more to come in the fulllength interview next week. But who else did he speak to? Well, let me introduce you next. Rashandanda Silva from the King School. He started to use AI in his work from an admin side and a teaching side. And like Matt, he's from a humanities and he's a history teacher. So let's roll the VT. Hi Rashan from the King School. How are you doing today? I'm very good, thank Dan. Thank you very much. So in your kind of background in education and technology, this AI, what are your thoughts on it? Look, it was quite exciting right when it first came about because obviously this process has has actually been around a long time but it obviously allowed people like a ordinary classroom teacher and a student for example you put put in some information and get some information back. At the start it was a bit bit fraught I guess in the education sense because obviously students were using it for a number of different reasons mostly just to put in a question and get an answer back that they would submit as their own work. I think staff and students have become a lot clever in the use of it especially in terms of writing prompts now and I think a lot of schools are teaching students how to write proper prompt so they can Yeah. So they can actually get a a much much better response in return and then take that information and edit it edit it for their own. Have you had to do lots of staff training around that? Is there a bit of a gap appearing? Look, there is a huge gap and I think teachers are a little bit still concerned about the use of AI. I still think there's this whole idea of catching students out and I don't think that's that's what we should be looking at. It's actually helping them use the tool like a a computer or or a calculator came out a long time ago. Yeah, we've been using those tools for a long time. So This is just the next step. Yeah. Well, what excites you most? Have you used any of the tools out there? What kind of ones capture your imagination the most or have you seen teachers using in the classroom? Yeah, I can split that answer into two actually. So, probably in in my area where we're lighting writing a lot of policies and huge documentation where we're actually reading large amounts of PDFs that are sometimes 195 pages long. Yeah. Yeah. So, that takes time, right? The whole speed and and processing power of the of the AI tools of of summarizing information for us quickly and then for us to reuse that information in a meaningful way. That saved us a lot of time, which has made us a lot more productive in terms of writing policies and procedures. I'm a history teacher by trade. So, we would now start the process of saying to students, let's put this question in and see what the AI spits out. Yeah. And let's look at the sources that we can use to either prove or disprove some of this information. And that's interesting from a history point of view. I know Matt Estman, he's a history teacher by Chad and geography teacher and he's done quite a lot of interest in historical references and uses of G technology which is quite cool but then also on the other side of it I think science and history are one of the subjects that do a lot their own sources correct so what would your thoughts be then if students are using work from GPT and and other technology similar to that using AI what's the best way to source things like that look I think sourcing is is a difficult thing right I think what AI is actually doing is giving students a starting point so we all know that not every student is is equal in terms with their understanding and the way they're able to formulate an answer. Yeah. So, I would say the whole AI process is providing students who aren't as gifted or talented with an opportunity to start the whole process at a point and that's making a lot easier for for boys and girls, I guess, to formulate an answer because they they're being provided with a prompt and then they can go away and check that prompt that's linking into their research skills and not just history, that's linked into any subject and then proving or disproving that. answers. So I think the whole idea that AI is a tool for cheating I think has now moved because we're now realizing that actually it's speeding up our whole work process students staff at the same time. Yeah, absolutely. That's such a thoughtful and mature way to be thinking about this. I hope lots of teachers are listening into to that cuz that's that's a wonderful way to think about it. Thanks Rashan. Thank you for having me. Take care. Wow. It's been interesting to hear the perspectives of people who are on the journey and doing their experimentation. Now it's not People like you and I, Dan. Few. We live and breathe technology and AI every day. But I love hearing from people like Matt and Rashan who are primarily teachers and they're taking the pragmatic approach of this just another tool in my teaching toolkit. Yeah. And and like every tool, you have to learn how to use it. So next we've got Siobhan from Eping Boys. She's going to talk about a voyage of discovery about using AI, finding AI, and the different apps and services that she's tried. in the classroom and with her teachers. It's really fascinating to listen to what she's learned on the way. Hi Siobhan, how are you? Good. How are you Dan? I'm very well, thanks. So from Epin Boy School, I started last year. Awesome. So I was teaching and then I moved to the teacher librarian role this year. You do so many things in that role. What what's kind of capturing your attention at the minute around this generative AI conversation? Probably the apprehension mostly like how a lot of people feel that it's this new scary thing and the actual potential of what it can do. Do are you getting any PD or professional development around this area at all or you just got to find it all yourself? Find it all yourself. Basically, this has been like a little pet project of mine since end of last year when chat GPT kind of started to be released to the public. Yeah. What kind of things have you been doing with it in your school? Well, I've been playing around to see I'm trying to test it to its limits. So, for me, um, if it can't write a whole response, I'll see how well it can mimic my own writing style. Wow. So, I've been having fun playing around with that. Yeah. And like following a lot of different social media platforms to see how they've been testing and playing with the technology. So, some people have been using it to write what's called VBA code to craft PowerPoint presentations with pre-filled information, playing around with your voice. There's a few different AIs which you can train it for about 10 minutes and then can record dialogue in your style. Yeah. And in your voice. Wow. Wow. That's fantastic, isn't it? Yeah. The technology is moving very, very quickly. Yeah. Are are any of the teachers in your school utilizing anything specifically? Have you got any examples of what some of the teachers have been doing? Not really. It's mainly been me playing around with it and then having casual conversations with other teachers to see what they want to use it for. Yeah. But basically, next year there's going to be a bigger push for how we're going to deal with AI as a whole school, especially with the department. I believe it was announced recently. that they're going to be not blocking chat GBT from school servers because other schools have it freely available but department schools don't. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. And are there any other tools that you might have been using in the classroom and in school which you've been playing with that that have been quite uh fun? Have you done any image stuff? I've been playing around with the image stuff myself just for fun and I've been using it to like I've been using it for mainly my own practice. Yeah. I haven't had the I've had conversations with other students doing like individual research projects on how to best utilize it and be being aware of the limitations that AI has. Um, but I haven't had the chance to execute it officially in full school lessons yet because we're still trying to learn how we're going to deal with it as a school as well as in general. I I find the the teacher librarians, especially in New South Wales where I reside, there's a lot of innovation that comes out to the teacher librarian side. When STEM became popular, teacher librarians are running the STEM programs in schools. So, it's great to see that you're bringing that generative AI stuff together. Is there something that you're looking forward to learning more about is there kind of areas that you're interested in? Probably seeing how it's applied in other subjects because a lot of the time most people think with AI, oh, it's specifically for the written subjects. It's usually, oh, it's how are we using it in the English classroom, the history classroom. I'm curious to see how it can be used for other subject areas that may not necessarily be based in writing. Yes. Cuz writing is the biggest obvious But of course with Midjourney and Darly and all those visual AI stuff, it'd be interesting to see how students could adapt and use those kinds of image technology AI within their own individual projects. Yeah, definitely. I've seen some great stuff in some schools I've been in recently where even some of the English teachers have been showing images and getting kids to reverse engineer Yes. using English the prompts back to try to copy the image. It's like been fantastic. So thanks again Siobhan. Thank you. That was fascinating. I love the freedom to experiment that Siobhan obviously feels like that's something I talk about all the time. I ask the question, have you used it? What tasks have you given it? And then I talk about the wide range of tasks that I've used it for because let's be honest, we don't really know what it's capable of, do we then? No. True. And that's what I found interesting when you were talking with Mark Liddell from Salut's Grammar School. I listened to that and we went from learning about the technology to learning about the application of it with teachers and some really re really really good insights in the in this interview about the different approaches and different staff attitudes. Hi Mark, how are you Dan? Great to see you today. Yeah, you too. Thanks for joining us on this podcast episode. We at the AI education event obviously. What have we find this morning so far? It's been wonderful. So it's been great to be able to hear some different perspectives on how is it that AI can have an impact? What's been happening so far and then looking at where are we headed? What are some of the ways that we can help for our teachers and for our students to get prepared for these next steps within AI? Yeah. And what are you currently doing at the minute at your school? So, right now we're just asking lots of questions. So, we have been able to provide some optin AI professional learning sessions for our teachers. We've been able to develop a student learning continuum and a teacher learning continuum and Now we're looking at our next few years of being able to say right in what ways do we want to differentiate the way that we'll support teachers. We've also got innovators within the school who we're working closely with. So right now working with this really wonderful math teacher and he's asking the question how is it that I can help to improve the behavior, the effort and the meaning of each lesson for my students? And it turns out the way he's been solving those different problems is by AI writing code that's developed a dashboard for him that's bringing together effort academic progress and disposition reflection. So it's just been really fun to go on that journey with this particular teacher. And isn't it interestingly from technology I know you've got a rich history of technology and innovation in your in your background but one thing that's jumped out to me is there's a couple of maths lecturers here today. Mathematics education has been something that often technology has kind of left behind and other other subjects picked it up more. So that's fantastic to hear the maths department's picked this up. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a matter of saying we've got our math curriculum, right? And we're doing quadratic equations. Okay. We we can't really shift a whole lot within that if we're learning quadratics. However, we get to set this up for our learners. We get to provide the landscape of how it's going to apply. We also get to describe to students what does success look like? And we would want to say that Success doesn't just look like I can understand quadratic equations and solve them. We also want to articulate and say, wait a second, your ability to persevere, your ability to develop reasoning, your ability to collaborate, all of these things are part of that success criteria. So if all you can do by the end of the lesson is solve for two values for X, we haven't done our job properly. Like there's a whole lot more to regular classroom learning than just ticking that curriculum. box. That That's phenomenal, isn't it? Did you learn anything specific from today? I I know the one of the quotes that jumped out to me was around the beehive. Yeah. Right. So, that quote that you're referring to there was just saying that the purpose of the beehive is not to produce honey. It's that these bees are constructing this healthy hive and it turns out a byproduct of that is this honey. And so, I guess the thing that's jumped out for me in today's session is that we're all come together around AI. But really most of the conversation has been about hi which is human intelligence or AI like emotional intelligence that actually will go alongside that AI work. So I feel as though we shouldn't really be just coming together to discuss AI. We should be looking at the whole person the whole student and saying right we already know all of these things are required for our students to be successful in the long run and now we've just got this additional tool. I I feel that for some exper experienced teachers. Uh for some teachers that aren't that interchange, just having that conversation always about AI is actually going to repel them. And if we start using more holistic language where we are talking about the relational growth of our students, we are talking about the the growth in reasoning of our students. And then alongside that, we've got these other tools that help to refine some of the learning process of our students. I think that's going to allow for better buying for some of different teachers that will be able to say, "Wait a second, I can support my student with their academic learning and also with the tools that will support them with revision that might connect with AI." That's that's such a good way to look at it. When you reflect yourself on where things are going with AI now, what what do you see is coming next, which you excited about? And then also, how are you managing that digital divide in in your school? Is everybody on the same page or are varying different uh degrees of staff PD happening? Sure. So where are we headed next? So firstly, we're headed into a very exciting time because when it is that staff are equipped to understand and use AI well, it does amplify the progress for our students. It helps them to be able to see just like we've had with other technologies. How is it that I can harness this for good use? So I'm reading and I'm listening and I'm getting involved with lots of different conversations which is helping me to know that whatever those different problems are, we're going to solve them alongside students to make school a better place. So that's number one. Number two, how is it that we best help our teachers? Well, in the same way that we differentiate learning for our students, we have to do the same for our teachers. And just in the last week, some of the different conversations, some of the opportunities, some of the fears that our teachers have, there's lots of misinformation, there's lots of misunderstanding because it's just moving at 190 km per second. A lot of people will say, "Right, I'm jumping on board. This is going to be the ride of my life." Other people are like, "I'm not even going to the station." Like, if you tell me something now, it's going to be out of date and then I'm going to have to listen again. So, I think we've got to empathize well and say, what is going to provide that entry step for this group of teachers? What's going to provide that comfort and that kind of handholding for a different group of teachers? Because we can't just put our heads in the sand and think this is going away like that is not going to happen. We need to be able to make sure that all of our different teachers can see the possibilities. They can see the need and then to be able to care for them well and provide those learning and development opportunities that will help them to take their next steps. Well, that that's fantastic. Thanks for joining us today on the podcast, Mark from St. Luke's. Really really appreciate it. Thanks so much, Dan. That was fab. Hearing that really unlocked good ideas for moving from experimentation to actually supporting teachers on their journey. Let's be honest and between Matt, Rashan's, Siobhan, and Mark, we've had some amazing insights to help other school, let's call them middle leaders, the people that are leading this and they're navigating the complexity and the ambiguity. So, how do we bring it home, Dan? Who have you saved for last? Oh, we've got Anthony England from PLC. Let's roll the VT. Welcome, Anthony England, to the podcast. studio. Absolutely. It's a good looking studio. It is, isn't it? How have you How have you enjoyed today? Yeah. Good. Look, I love talking AI. I actually think I like cruising the uncertain edge and I think that's what AI is. Yeah, absolutely. And and I was really interested of the questions you posed the panel discussion because it really teased out some of the key components with with some of the some of the panelists and the audience in terms of the things that you were doing with your school. I I saw a LinkedIn post the other day where you It's a a personalized tutor. You're really pushing the boundaries at the minute, right? Yeah. Look, I think bit like co there is no best practice with the experiment. And so I'm one to experiment and happy to fail, but certainly happy to kick the tires to see what works, what doesn't, and then if I love something, I will tell people. So I'm going to flip the question. What hasn't worked is the old assessments. Wow. Because in a world where where typically what we do at the moment is get a student to make something to prove that they've mastered the content, the mode, and no longer be able to say with certainty that they were the maker. I love that AI is pushing assessments to a different place. I love that if you know what you want to say, then you've got this savant assistant that with clear purpose you can get it to produce something that you're happy with and it's so polite at taking feedback when it's I'm so sorry I got of course 2 plus 2 plus 5 what was I thinking as an AI it's so good isn't it I how are the image generation side to those things have you seen a lot of use of that look interesting I reckon I've learned more about art and art criticism given an AI tool than ever before from any art theory or museum that I went to because I love I know what I love but I need to now know how to describe what I love to a a machine so we can create something that is something that I value. Um so I've given it tasks to provide feedback on user interface design. I've given it tasks to generate logos and images that give meaning to some concept I'm trying to convey. Uh, I've had it, you know, remove backgrounds and generate new bits in into images really quickly. I feel more artistic than I have since I was a 5-year-old. You know, you don't you don't find a 5-year-old that doesn't feel like they're an artist. But as a 50year-old, you don't find many people who feel like they're artists. And for first time in ages, I feel like, hey, I'm kind of being creative visually. And for me, is exciting, playful. Yeah. I And I I love it when teachers are playing with these things cuz that it just boggles my mind. I saw somebody the other day where they're a literacy teacher that was asking the teachers, you know, what have you done? Literacy teacher created an image with quite a complex prompt and they in the class it was about the kids trying to copy that image with descriptive writing. Beautiful. Ah, it was a beautiful task. Yeah, I can't even describe how good it was. And sometimes you see some of those lessons, you think, wow. And the ideas the teachers come up with just keep getting better and better and better. Another thing I think is working well is feedback. I think The navana of personalized education that's catered for you as a learner was a bridge too far. But AI makes it possible. I have got chat JP4. So I would upload a rubric, upload a handwritten piece of work, ask it to generate some comments about that according to the rubric how it's gone. Then got it to suggest an improvement on what it would change. Then I got it to critique the original and the uh revive. and identify what elements it changed and why it could justify that paragraph by paragraph it was providing amazing feedback to a student who's wanting to improve their writing. Yeah, absolutely. It's that Sal Khan two sigma problem that they talked earlier on as well isn't it? The two things that have always been sort of out of the grasp of teachers have been personalization and assessment changing assessment and I think we're on a cusp of being able to change those. Absolutely. If you've got a grade as the motivator, you're creating an assessment that's asking to be gained. Yes. Because what's the outcome? The best thing is an A and that's what they hope for. But if it's about some intrinsically valuable thing that they want to improve and grow in, when you speak to students, they don't want to cheat that process. They want to improve themsel. And so it actually nudges assessments to look at what's intrinsically valuable. Yeah. To the learner, not just grade hunting. One thing you mentioned earlier on which I'd never heard before and I thought it was phenomenal where you talked about pushing students into beige. Mhm. And and that's really made me think today about the top end students and the negative elements that if you are chasing that grade we could bring down the top end. Do you want to explain to us a bit about that beige? Yeah. Yeah. So the idea is that you're going to compress to the middle that the obvious one is that the lowerend student is going to submit work that's better than they naturally might have done without AI. Yeah. And so they they've gone further to the middle. On the other end, the threat is will AI with its say with image creation, with its amazing ability to generate pretty impressive output, will it make those top- end students go, well, could I be bothered? It's a lot of hard work to get the skills required to be able to produce this. So, eh, and so they don't bother. They'll lower their effort. and then lower their growth in the face of AI. And so the threat is will students then all compress to the middle and everyone just becomes beige? Yeah. And I think the missing piece in that question is the joy of mastery that when you find something that you love, cooking the perfect steak, making perfect loaf of bread, painting that sunset, nobody wants to cheat that joy. In fact, there's a whole game industry about those micro moments of joy of mastery that we yes I failed last time but I got it this time and that's an addictive gaming strategy the gamification of things those micro moments of joy the dopamine hit that I'm on the right path I've made that next level that is what we're forgetting that people don't go beige people want to improve and you talk to students today cheaters going to cheat taylor Swift would say that you know haters going to hate cheaters going to cheat but the other students who don't want to cheat. They want to be their best self. They're worried because they don't want to be seen as shortch changing their own growth. Yes. And so they're worried if I use this, am I diminishing myself and nobody wants to do that. And I I think that's gold. I really do. I think this definitely you're on to something there. I mentioned something in the panel earlier on where they were talking generally about AI and how it was going to impact your brain function and my analogy was using Google Maps and you forget what everything is you just follow the sat lab these days and you don't even know where the cricket thing is which you've been to 20 times this term but you you can't remember where it is. So you get a cognitive amputation as Travis Smith from Microsoft calls it. But if you are intrinsically interested and want to master a particular thing then that doesn't even come into play. But if there's something that's boring for the kids it's about maybe the teachers lighting that fire and bringing learning opportunities to the students that really want to do. So the master is there. Yeah, every teacher wants to light the spark of curiosity, of finding a passion. No one's decides, hey, I want to be a teacher because I want to help achieve a minimum standard. Tick a box. That's I want to be able to give people B's and A's. They want to see people grow. And so lighting that spark, that's what teachers want to do. That's why we got into the game is to inspire the future generation to be their best self. Like that's inspire Spiring to see them grow and be better. That's what teachers love. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Absolutely. Lovely to chat with you, Dan. Cheers. Bye. Well, Ray, that was another excellent interview to end the podcast today. You know, I find Anthony and some of his thoughts around education. He thinks so deeply about the implications for his staff and more importantly the students and the way that this technology moves. He's always thinking ahead of the game. game and like the Wayne Gretzky quotes about playing where the puck is going to be just absolutely phenomenal and his thoughts on art and the way he's developed his own thinking around this technology just blows my mind. This podcast is going to be the one I keep coming back to and referring other people to to get into the understanding of what people are doing, what might happen in the future. Yes, it's just so I mean just amazing voices that we got to hear there. AB: Absolutely. And I'm really looking forward to uh the next episode where we'll look at some of these in a little bit more detail and have some extended interviews with some of the characters you heard from today. Yeah, next time round it's a longer interview with Matt Estman and just understanding and a bit more detail what he's doing and then beyond that we've got some interviews we did we did with people from higher education that uh will be in an episode in the future. Thanks everybody who actually uh took the time out to uh be on our podcast during the event a couple of weeks ago. Thanks Dan. See you next week. Bye.