In this insightful episode, Dr. Elizabeth McIngvale and Cali Werner are joined by Dr. Jon Grayson, a psychologist with over 40 years of experience treating OCD and anxiety. Together, they discuss the critical role of uncertainty in anxiety disorders, the importance of acceptance, and why coping doesn’t always feel good—but it’s essential. From practical tools for embracing discomfort to mindfulness strategies that empower, this conversation offers a compassionate and realistic perspective on living with anxiety.

Key Points:

[0:00] - Introduction to Dr. Jon Grayson

Dr. Grayson’s 40+ years of expertise, his acclaimed book, Freedom from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and his groundbreaking work in OCD treatment.

[8:00] - What OCD Teaches Us About Anxiety

The parallels between OCD and general anxiety: how uncertainty underpins them both and why facing fears matters for everyone.

[18:30] - Language Matters: “I Can’t” vs. “I Choose Not To”

Dr. Grayson explains the importance of reframing how we talk about avoidance and the empowering impact of this subtle shift.

[27:45] - Acceptance Isn’t Bliss

Why “acceptance sucks,” and how learning to sit with discomfort is key to moving forward in life—without avoiding or overcompensating.

[36:00] - Mindfulness in Practice: Coping Through Awareness

Practical examples of mindfulness as “doing two things at once” and finding moments of joy even amidst anxiety.

[43:20] - Uncertainty and Probability in Everyday Life

Understanding how low-probability events drive anxiety and how to resist the urge to control the uncontrollable.

Quotable Moments:

[19:15] “When you say ‘I can’t,’ you rob yourself of power. ‘I’m choosing not to’ gives you back control.”—Dr. Jon Grayson

[28:05] “Acceptance sucks. It’s not fun or blissful, but it’s the only way forward.”—Dr. Jon Grayson

[37:50] “You can feel anxious and still enjoy moments of your life. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.”—Dr. Jon Grayson

Links Mentioned:

• Freedom from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder by Dr. Jon Grayson: https://www.amazon.com/dp/042527389X?ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_A54KYSKW8CEWR1DJ6G40

• OCD Institute of Texas: www.ocditexas.com

• Anxiety Society Podcast Website: www.anxietysocietypodcast.com

Dr. Grayson’s conversation is a reminder that while uncertainty is unavoidable, we don’t have to be controlled by it. By reframing how we think about avoidance, embracing mindfulness, and accepting discomfort, we can learn to live fuller, more meaningful lives. Don’t forget to subscribe, and share this episode with someone who might benefit from these empowering insights