A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Tonight on APEX Express Host Miko Lee speaks with Restorative Justice Educator and Author Tatiana Chaterji about her work on the power of tenderness. Tune in!

Tatiana Chaterji’s website

Show Transcript

[00:00:00] Opening Music: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:44] Miko Lee: Good evening. I’m your host Miko Lee, and tonight we are speaking with Tatiana Chaterji about Restorative Justice. Restorative justice is a movement and a set of practices that stands as an alternative to our current punitive justice system. It focuses on people and repairing harm by engaging all the impacted folks working together to repair that harm. RJ is built off of ancient indigenous practices from cultures around the globe, including Native American, African, first Nation, Canadian, and many others. So join us with Tatiana Chaterji. 

[00:01:23] Tati, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? 

[00:01:28] Tatiana Chaterji: Thank you for the question, Miko. The first thing that comes to mind, my people are the people we’re, we’re, we’re coming up on the cusp of a possible teacher strike, and I’m thinking about workers and the labor, movement and comrades in my life from doing, work as a classified school worker for about a decade.

[00:01:49] Then my people are also from my homelands. The two that I feel very close to me are in Finland, from my mom’s side, and then in Bengal, both India, west Bengal, and Bangladesh. And my people are also those who are facing facing the worst moments of their life, either from causing harm or experiencing harm as a survivor of violence.

[00:02:11] I think about this a lot and I think about also the smaller conflicts and tensions and issues that bubble up all the time. So my people are those that are not afraid to make it better, you know, to make it right. And I carry, oh gosh, what legacy do I. I wanna say first kind of the legacy of the Oakland RJ movement that really nurtured me and the youth that I’ve encountered in schools and in detention on the streets in the community.

[00:02:41] Youth who are young adults and becoming bigger, older adults and, and, and also elders. To me. So sort of that’s whose legacy I carry in shaping the. Society that we all deserve. 

[00:02:55] Miko Lee: Thank you for answering with such a rich, well thought out response that’s very expansive and worldly. I appreciate that. Can you share what brought you to this work personally?

[00:03:07] Tatiana Chaterji: Sure. As a young activist involved in Insight Women of Color against Violence and aware of the work of Critical Resistance, and I had a pretty clear politics of abolition, but I didn’t. Really think that it impacted me as personally as it did when I was in my early twenties and I suffered a brain injury from a vehicular assault, a hit and run that may have been gang affiliated or, a case of mistaken identity. My recovery is, is, is complicated. My journey through various kinds of disabilities has shaped me. But I think the way that I was treated by the police and by the justice quote unquote justice system, which I now call the criminal legal system, it because there was no justice.

[00:03:52] I sort of don’t believe that justice is served in the ways that survivors need. yeah, I really, I got very close to the heart of what an RJ process can do and what RJ really is. I got introduced to Sonya Shah and the work of Suha bga and I was able to do a surrogate victim offender dialogue and then later to facilitate these processes where people are kind of meeting at the, at the hardest point of their lives and connecting across immense suffering and layers of systemic and interpersonal internalized oppression.

[00:04:26] Just so much stuff and what happens when you can cross over into a shared humanity and recognition. It’s just, it’s just so profound and and from that space of healing and, and, and compassion, I’ve been able to think about. Other ways that RJ can look and have sort of been an advan, what is it evangelical for it?

[00:04:51] You know, I think that because we don’t see these options, I, I, because I knew people, I was able to connect in this way and I would just shout out David uim, who’s the one who told me that even if I didn’t know the person who harmed me, that this was possible. People so often give up, they’re just like, well, I have to feel this way.

[00:05:10] I have to just deal with it. Swallow the injustice and the lack of recognition. Just sort of keep going. Grit your teeth. I think we don’t have enough knowledge of what’s possible and so we harden ourselves My name is Tatiana Chaterji. I’ll be reading my flash essay split. Before I didn’t know what a traumatic brain injury was. My tongue had not curled the letters TBI together shaping the sound of nightmare. I had not heard the clipping of staples from a scalp fused after it was split to release pressure.

[00:05:46] They said, removing the right cranial bone flap, not conceived of the skull as giving pressure, a living organism of its own, a piece of its stored in a freezer for months after being removed in the dead of night. Attempted murder, vehicular assault under a blanket of fog. This city, these hidden stars.

[00:06:07] Never concerned myself with science or medicine or the mechanics of survival, the filaments of me unbreaking encased as they were in a thick clay from where I stood young and forceful, standing or walking or sitting, because I wanted to willful, bold, joy, stubborn, had not needed to wait for the all clear discharge orders that released me to a world of indifference.

[00:06:33] Before I didn’t know life without its sense. Its tastes that the olfactory nerve stretches behind the eyes, vulnerable to bruising or severing from an impact to the head that you won’t know until you know an extended game of dice that ultimately rolled no permanent damage. You will smell again, but with loss.

[00:06:52] Unfamiliar associating Jasmine for coffee, revulsion to orange comfort and cinnamon. Before I had not been the target of any physical or lasting harm. Had not thought that victim or survivor would ever describe me. Had not organized a vigil for rape survivors as I did while unconscious dreaming, waking up to pelvic bruises, believing I was one of them.

[00:07:19] The brain injury bisected my life until I realized it was one in a string of paper cuts that stop hurting eventually, that there will be other moments that change me, that there are many ways to slice a life when I pull her to my chest. A sticky, slimy worm, six pounds, four ounces, eyes closed, mulling to find her place on my chest for the first time.

[00:07:44] My chin against the wet mess of hair. When he carries me over the threshold into our suite at the Wise Owl Hotel in South Colta, garlands of sweet Jasmine adorn my hair and my henna painted arms drip with gold. When the drama therapist asks the group to simulate the attack rushing towards me so I can do what I wished I had done, run away.

[00:08:11] It returns my power and I own what’s mine Fingertips. Throbbing with the life they can grasp. Sirens through the dark machines. Beeping into a week of unconsciousness, awakening to wonder and madness. One toe at suicide’s brink, recovering in this outpatient patient treatment program for depression and anxiety.

[00:08:31] All of it here. The breath and meat and sky. When I walked through the gates of San Quentin State Prison for the first time, shuttering at the cold, heavy clank permanence at my back. The man in front of me breathes nervously in his starched blue uniform, gently meeting my eyes to say, I’ve never met a real victim before.

[00:08:53] Thank you for coming. He is, of course, a crime victim, but also an offender, and there isn’t room to be both in this place. I am here for the penultimate session of Victim Offender Education and Dialogue where the men have met for over a year now, each week to learn empathy and build rigorous self-reflection muscles to take accountability.

[00:09:18] They are ready to present their crime impact statements and to listen to a panel of survivors. None of us directly harmed or were harmed by each other. We are all surrogates. This then is the greatest innocence, the widest Gulf I’ve crossed before, sitting with men who have killed, who have touched this threshold, this fever wound of life and God and pain.

[00:09:44] My eyes were full of dew. I was blind to the logics of violence, the way the toxins seep under and you merge with its poison that you become dehumanized. Brutal. A mentality of war. The hurt echoing at a different pitch. Copper pebbles in an empty cave. Before I sat alone in confusion, untangling the threads of my trauma with what I knew from a peaceful life of privilege.

[00:10:12] In that first circle at San Quentin and every subsequent circle, I uncloak this ache, hear from men who explain the numbness, danger in every corner under the shadow of each day. I let them hold my story, share its load. Listen to theirs, my witness body lifting off bits of the weight they carry. I welcome insights previously unimaginable.

[00:10:39] Receive apologies I didn’t know I needed. It’s as if the lights switch on all at once, a brightness. The dialogue melts the isolation of my suffering. Its icy blanket of shame, allowing me to see what had been there all along, not monster. A human did this to me, broken alone, and suddenly I have permission to heal for 10 days.

[00:11:07] Baby birds remain in the nest. Their mother has built. I spent 10 days in a coma from within the protective circle. My family had drawn around me for the entirety of my two plus decades on earth. Infant wind, bone creature before flight 24 years collapsed to 10 days in the coma nest so I could bear free the weight of the universe.

[00:11:33] Soaring my mind at ease. A fresh page appears the dotted line of life’s flashpoints waiting to blink on forward cuts and selves.

[00:11:46] Miko Lee: I just finished your new book. Wow. 

[00:11:48] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh you did?

[00:11:48] Miko Lee: Yes I did. 

[00:11:49] Tatiana Chaterji: Yay!

[00:11:50] Miko Lee: Yes I did. Everyday Restorative justice, moving from crisis Response to positive school culture. Big title, weighty title. It’s so much, it’s so rich, it’s so beautiful. It has so many different elements for, um, for a classroom teacher, an educator, a community organizer. And it has not just like lesson plans, but amazing quotes and rubrics.

[00:12:15] Even rubrics. ’cause you could tell your classroom teacher with real experiences, which is like the land I live in. Stories and Spanish translations. So tell us how this amazing book, what, I mean you’ve been doing this work for years, but what inspired you to collect this into book form? 

[00:12:33] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh, thank you Miko for reading it. That is the biggest gift ever. I want to shout out Heather Manchester Anita Vva and Evelyn Aquino. They wrote a book a few years ago on inter international Intergenerational Restorative Justice and really youth and adult partnership. And in that book, they featured the work that I had been doing at Fremont here in East Oakland.

[00:12:57] And I think that was the first time when I was like, wait, maybe we are really doing something special that deserves to be in a book. You know, like, what is this secret sauce? Or what is the, what is the combination? Things that we’re doing that’s really working that we want to share out with the world.

[00:13:14] And and so, yeah, so fast forward a little bit of time. There’s, I, I’ve actually now left the district. I’ve had more time to reflect on what that time was and what it was we were doing. And I had this invitation with Teachers College Press to, uh, to put it forth and really make it legible for classroom teachers who might not have always felt like they were invited into this work for a variety of reasons.

[00:13:41] Miko Lee: Well, one, I think that’s fascinating that it took somebody else writing about your work for you to say, Ooh, look at this. I think that’s fascinating. Uh, more to that later, but I’m wondering I think many classroom teachers already do this whole, oh, let’s come up with our rules for the classroom. It’s like respect.

[00:13:58] I mean, it’s a lot of the principles around restorative justice, but actually implementing a whole system feels. Overwhelming or like you were just saying, they don’t have access to it, so how does this book give them access? 

[00:14:14] Tatiana Chaterji: Uh, well, and I, I wanna clarify from the top that I’m actually, I am, I have served in the role of a classroom teacher, but that’s not my training or background. And that I’ve, I’ve actually seen this schism or this kind of divisiveness between people who are in youth organizing, where I’ve, that’s my background. Youth organ organizing, youth leadership development, sort of student and youth services. Vis-a-vis classroom educators. And I was straddling both of these roles as a classified employee doing restorative justice alongside case managers, the school security officers who are now called culture keepers in Oakland Unified, and and administrators as well.

[00:14:56] And I was partnering with teachers to figure out classroom systems. I ended up co-teaching and then solo teaching a class within the Mandela academy for Law and Public Service. That continued until when that school, when that mini school closed down. But I learned so much from classroom teachers. The educators that I was working with are amazing and they are the original. RJ people, I would say, but they, they are not positioned that way and they aren’t often recognized or given the time and space to do circle and to do that culture building in their classrooms because they have any number of deliverables and test you know, requirements that they are responsible for.

[00:15:37] And so what I really saw was a kind of a sidelining of their work into the teaching and then the culture work happening in other pockets and primarily held by people who are not in front of the kids day after day dealing with. Management and communication and all the things that happen when you’re bell to bell responsible for so many different combinations of kids and communicating with their parents and making sure everything gets synced up. So I think I really wanted to honor their labor and and open the door. And, and, and I’m sure others have done it as well, but I just felt it wasn’t open enough. It wasn’t a, a sort of a strong enough like, here, you already do this. Why? What if you could take it a step further or here are some things that are legible for the systems and the, the tasks that you are responsible for, that you have to be responsible for. Let me create it in your, in your language. And really with great humility from my own position is, has not having the same training. 

[00:16:41] Miko Lee: Thank you for pointing that out. And those titles of, you know, the classroom educator, the community organizers, the youth development person, people often like separate them, but really it’s about the creating the best culture for the students is what we’re talking about.

[00:16:56] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. We should be on the same page. 

[00:16:58] Miko Lee: Yeah. 

[00:16:58] Tatiana Chaterji: And I think very often we are pit against each other and there’s sort of, you know, being in this violent, extractive society that that’s sort of what happens. But it shouldn’t happen, in fact. Right. And we should be more hand in hand working together when there’s been this smooth handoff between different roles on a campus. That’s when it’s just the best. And I want to, I hope to see that more. 

[00:17:19] Miko Lee: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the story behind the, forward to the book? You write in a dedication to a young woman, and can you share a little bit about that story? 

[00:17:30] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh gosh. Shamara Young her memory lives within me and with so many people in the Fremont community in Oakland. She was a student leader who was in the very first iteration of this RJ class, this restorative justice class that I taught for ninth graders, which really is the inspiration for this book. And she was killed shortly after we had just come back from distance learning from the pandemic, and it really shocked our, our entire community, an incident of road rage, and just the excess of the excess availability of weapons, you know, and, and firearms.

[00:18:07] So just wanted to honor her legacy, honor honor other students and young people who’ve been stolen from us, from violence here at home, and also in any number of imperial projects that, that. US government is responsible for just really seeing the interconnection between people’s struggle and the loss of life is tragic all the time. And the loss of a student is a particular pain that I just, I wanted to name because it is, it is so tender and other educators, youth organizers, parents, people who’ve known young ones to, to die in that way. It’s just something, a wound that stays and definitely motivates me to, to do this work.

[00:18:49] My name is Tatiana Chaterji. I’ll be reading my Vielle, a poem called Losing Shamara. When he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs losing shamara. The adults are loud in their grief. Students’ eyes down to forget their own stolen ones. Circles the forced ceremony of blood on false tongues, homage to her memory, her story without relief.

[00:19:15] When he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs. There’s enough rage in the streets, enough guns, too many per person drowning dreams. All the beef students’ eyes down to forget their own stolen ones. We fend for ourselves, feeding off crumbs, unmet needs of volcano. The lava, a sharp reef. When he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs.

[00:19:41] Healing hearts. Now the school spins as she hums her voice and my mind a faint shaking leaf when he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs losing shamara. The adults are loud in their grief.

[00:19:57] Miko Lee: Well, thank you so much for grounding the book in that story, because I think there’s something about talking about doing that work, but keeping in mind a real person and the impacts of our violent society and what’s going on, but also how we keep moving on. So I, and 

[00:20:13] Tatiana Chaterji: to say that, you know, Shaara really embraced this. She already, like so many of us and so many young people, she knew how to communicate through difficult situations, through drama and the gossip and what people are posting. And I saw that clarity and that maturity in her and wanted to just instill this book with that wisdom that, that young people often know how, already how to navigate these complex and oppressive systems. And that if we can offer a spotlight to them or something that’s substantive and really honors that intelligence, they’re, we, we could learn a lot.

[00:20:49] Miko Lee: Speaking of drama and learning a lot. I know that you have a background in theater and theater of the oppressed, and I’m wondering how you bring that work into your RJ work.

[00:21:00] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh, well that’s a big passion of mine. I have not done it as much in the classroom space as I might have liked. But it’s it when, when there is the invitation or the, the, the container to really go deep and create stories. Using theatrical forms and, and our bodies, this, this magic of image theater, it can be so powerful.

[00:21:22] The bulk of my work in that area has been inside of prison and doing programming in that highly violent system where there is generative, juicy, beautiful art to be made. And I just shout out all of the incarcerated artists that I’ve worked with who helped to shape those spaces and do performance in the prison where, where there was kind of like a witnessing and a participation across the audience and the performers who are on stage. That is that that gives me a lot of just light and hope and yeah. Good stuff. 

[00:22:02] Miko Lee: I wonder if you could share a bit for folks that are not as familiar with rj uh, restorative justice work, and particularly at school sites, if you could share about the carpet of community building, what is that all about?

[00:22:15] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh yeah. Well, in the book I talk about the standard model of three tiers of restorative justice using kind of a triangle diagram where the, the bottom third, it’s not even quite a third, it’s the biggest chunk of the triangle, but that bottom layer is tier one. And this is not just in restorative justice, a lot of people will be familiar with this, where tier one is kind of universal. It’s supposed to be for everybody. It is supposed to work for everyone, kind of the way that you shape the culture and the conditions of a learning environment.

[00:22:48] Tier two is when things go wrong or rather. People might need more support, more individualized attention in an RJ context, that’s often if there’s conflict or a pattern of, uh, behavior that is harmful. And then tier three is at the very top where it’s the fewest people. But the idea that maybe somebody needs to be removed in a typical school that would be through.

[00:23:15] Expulsion or suspension or even juvenile detention and that they are in a restorative justice framework, they are welcomed back with intention and clarity on what that means. Doing something that’s called a cosa, a circle of support and accountability that looks at the ways that a young person can succeed and holds them to account with a lot of love and care.

[00:23:39] So that triangle is great. Kind of, but it also could be Reconceptualized as a carpet of just interconnecting reasons for meeting in Circle. And I really wanna credit one of my mentors and friends, Kamoa Johnson, who helped me to think about this as a sort of, there’s so many reasons to get, come together and circle that none of them should be prioritized more than the other. Or rather that every single thing should be grounded in the strength of the community and building relationships. So if I’m meeting with someone because they did something. Wrong, quote unquote, you know, that’s also an opportunity for relationship. And there should be, uh, a piece of us getting to know each other as human.

[00:24:23] That is part of that as well. And yeah, so I think like just thinking about the carpet you can think about the different kinds of circles that people practice. That is all happening as community. That community building has to happen first and alongside all of these other interventions. So it’s almost like the two top layers of the triangle would actually be situated in the bottom triangle or the bottom little chunk. And that bottom chunk would actually be a circle 

[00:24:50] Miko Lee: or just reconfiguring the whole idea of a triangle.

[00:24:54] Tatiana Chaterji: Right, exactly. Yeah. 

[00:24:55] Miko Lee: Yeah. So that we are all on one level space working in collective, uh, communication. 

[00:25:02] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, and I think I might’ve explained it in sort of a confusing way. You’d have to really look at the book to see the, the reconceptualization, but I wanna emphasize that The reason that this framework and this redesign is so crucial is because people jump into rj, they jump into a circle and they don’t do the groundwork to prepare everyone, including themselves to be there. But in a school environment, there’s any number of toxic elements that students are absorbing, that teachers are absorbing, that we’re all kind of just surviving with, you know, we’re hungry, we’re tired, we’re overstimulated, the lights are too bright. We didn’t get enough sleep. There’s distractions on our cell phones.

[00:25:44] There’s so many reasons that prevent us from sitting with each other and listening and being willing to learn from what another person might say or what their experience might be. And so if we can just go. Backwards and start with authentic connection and community building and skilling people up on how to listen. Then we’ll be more successful. Any number of people who have tried to do a circle and it fails, and I count myself in that group as well. It’s not. All your fault. In fact, it might not be your fault at all. There’s so many reasons why a circle will flop, and I think the assumption that I make is that people are not going to bear their souls to me or be vulnerable to me right off the bat.

[00:26:32] And maybe they won’t really ever. But that there are steps that can be taken to soften the hostility, the inherent hostility or harshness that is in our society, and to kind of slowly work towards a, just a, like a, a warmth. A warmth where people feel like it’s not dangerous to talk about the icky stuff and the uncomfortable stuff, and that we have to do it very slowly and in a container where students and really anyone can relearn the part of ourselves that we have to strip away when we grow up.

[00:27:11] Miko Lee: So I feel like you’re talking about multiple things. One is creating a safe environment for the young people to be able to speak what’s on their heart, what’s on their mind, and, and to recognize that everybody’s coming from such a different space. Even in one school. Even in one classroom. It reminds me of that theater game the moment before. Like you never know what happened to that person the moment before they came to that circle. 

[00:27:34] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. 

[00:27:34] Miko Lee: And so it’s just to be very conscious of that, that, uh. All of the environment that they’re coming from. 

[00:27:41] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. Conscious of it and accepting of it, but also not accepting that that’s it. Like if someone is showing up and they’re on their phone or they’re kind of listening in a superficial way, they give a a cheap answer to a question that that’s not all they’re capable of. And I think we know that and educators would know that, but they might not have the tools to allow the student to go deeper or to, or even the time in their day in the semester to allow that growth to happen. And so I spotlight this experiment that we did at Fremont, which was 12 weeks long, and it rotated three times.

[00:28:18] It was an intro to the Media Academy, introduction to that. Architecture academy, and then it was a restorative justice class. And in those 12 weeks from the start to the finish, I noticed an incredible change in the student’s ability to connect with each other, to feel empowered, to take, uh, sort of shape what they understand and shape what they care about and what they might wanna advocate for. And it was an intensive laboratory. I was super strict about phones. You know, I was, it was like, that was the place where you had to listen, learn how to listen, which was, in fact, the, the, my biggest, deliverable for them was that they should know how to listen and that they, of course, knew how, but this was a way to practice it further.

[00:29:02] Miko Lee: Can you name a few other things in that 12 week session that were able to foment this, uh, community? 

[00:29:10] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, I think because it was a non-academic space, I was really able to prioritize how people are listening and how they are, uh, speaking or communicating. So everybody has a different comfort level with speaking out loud. And being in circle can feel extremely intimidating if you’re not someone who likes to talk in front of people or likes to have the spotlight on you. So through the course of the class, there were, there were smaller activities to practice, people’s public speaking, and even reflecting and then articulating what it is that you wanna say and practicing what does it mean to divulge something but not too much that you feel exposed.

[00:29:50] That skill, I think, is something that adults often take for granted, that we know how to evaluate a situation and shape our story correctly. And not all adults either, but it’s something that for young people that is some that, that they can grow into that. Understand what they might wanna share that would be meaningful without making them feel too naked in front of their peers. So it’s sort of like all of these dimensions of what are the pressures that they’re feeling among this group of people? What feels comfortable to share? And when we got, when we broke into the more vulnerable and tender territory, it was pretty incredible to see and, and witness the shift in energy and how letting people’s guards down could happen, like in a responsible way. I, in no way, am advocating for having students and encouraging students to open up about their trauma and then be let loose into the, to the world. You know, there are so many dangerous things that, that people are dealing with and having to say, 

[00:30:53] Miko Lee: especially our social media world. 

[00:30:56] Tatiana Chaterji: Right, absolutely. That’s a whole other terrain. But to say that there is perhaps more possible than what we accept. So, so we kind of, I think we give up on like, well, you know, people are gonna shut down. They already are shut down and they’re guarded, and boom, that’s it. Let’s just roll with it. Let me give them as many worksheets as possible, but I’m not gonna ask them to talk out loud because that’s too much and 

[00:31:23] Miko Lee: watch a bunch of movies. 

[00:31:25] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. Well, I mean, teachers would tell me that they were so grateful that this space was being held because of what I think they understood as like a, a naturally therapeutic environment. And then of course, it’s crazy because it wasn’t always great. Sometimes it, you know, it didn’t, I couldn’t contain the space as well as I wanted to, but then students would say that I was the only teacher that would. Require them to speak out loud. Um, and so, and I didn’t do 

[00:31:48] Miko Lee: what of the whole day? That was the only class?

[00:31:51] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. Yeah. That’s pretty easy for some of them, you know, some of them and not all of them, but like, it’s, it’s remarkable to, to understand that education can happen that way. And increasingly with remote learning and with everything being sort of through this technological interface, it is possible to pretty much not communicate out loud. So then what does that mean? We are losing so much of what we’re capable of. 

[00:32:13] Miko Lee: Yeah. It’s not giving voice to students at all. Literally. 

[00:32:16] Tatiana Chaterji: Well, right. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:32:19] Miko Lee: I mean, you make me think of a couple things. One, when you talk about the public speaking, clearly that’s where your theater training comes in, not just naturally to do the public speaking, but then I also, when you’re talking about consent and what you’re sharing and how much you’re sharing of yourself, ’cause that can be very vulnerable for young folks, especially folks that are survivors. And I’m thinking about Dr. Danielle Allen from Harvard and her work around the youth participatory politics. Are you familiar with her stuff? 

[00:32:47] Tatiana Chaterji: No, 

[00:32:47] Miko Lee: she’s amazing she, she has this whole theory about how youth should share, and one of her components is sharing, um, digitally what they wanna share about who they are in the world. But I was just thinking about these as you’re speaking about how you’re getting them to talk about who they are. And I’m wondering if you could share a little bit more about youth leadership and how that’s part of the development of the program, how important that is. 

[00:33:15] Tatiana Chaterji: Absolutely. Um, I have a quote from one of my favorite RJ comrades to BD Gibson where he says that anything a young person can do, they should do that. We should hand it over, you know allow for more scaffolded, kind of shared responsibility. When I think about from the beginning of a school year to the end, that, that there’s kind of a, the teacher is, and the, or the youth worker, whoever’s holding the space, is doing a lot of the work to, to teach the skills, to transfer, the skills, to mentor and empower or skill up the young people. And that through the course of the year, by the end of it, that the young people are taking it on, shaping it, and they’re doing so. In collaboration with the adults. And that it is not so much just youth adult partnership, but that there’s a, a sense of intergenerational ness even among young people.

[00:34:08] There might be two people on the same grade level, one of whom has been in a youth leadership program and already kind of feels confident about doing any number of things. And I and a and their peer who could learn from that. Or an upper class person and a younger class person or a recent graduate. Many of the teachers and staff at Fremont were actually alumni of the school, which was really powerful for students to see someone who had gone through those same hallways. I think that’s all a, a, a piece of it.

[00:34:38] The other thing about youth leadership is that the model of restorative justice in schools that I’m grounded in and that I would say many of my people in Oakland are grounded in is peer leadership. So when students are leading circles, and not just leading circles, but also kind of having their ears to the ground and listening to what students are worried about, if there are social and political phenomena that are affecting students and staff, how, how can they shape the questions or the activities that might need to happen? And, um, 

[00:35:12] Miko Lee: for sure they know what’s happening way more than any teacher does. 

[00:35:16] Tatiana Chaterji: Right. I mean, often or in a different way. 

[00:35:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:18] Tatiana Chaterji: And so to be able to invite their voice in a, in a, in a meaningful container that isn’t tokenizing it, that isn’t sort of celebrating them just for being young or oppressed. I mean, I see that a lot in, in, in the work of youth leadership even. But to sort of meaningfully integrate them, which also requires training them in various, skills. And that partnership and that kind of coming together and doing things as a community can be transformative for everyone involved. I mean, for the staff that I’ve worked with, not just at Fremont, but at other schools when I’ve had students that are leading a training in circle keeping, for example, that can be so magnificent because the teacher gets to literally learn from their students, which I think is a dream that many people already are already want to do.

[00:36:06] Miko Lee: Absolutely. I think that’s true.

[00:36:08] Ayame Keane-Lee: We’re gonna take a quick break from the interview and listen to Slow Fade by MILCK.

MUSIC

[00:40:26] That was Slow Fade by MILCK.

[00:40:29] Miko Lee: I wanna pull a little bit bigger and talk a little bit more about restorative justice for just a moment. You write in your book about this need for a cultural shift, a paradigm shift because we are living in a capitalistic, uh, you know punishment based world in that we have this whole prison industrial complex and in, in fact the education to prison industrial complex. So can you talk about the different questions that are asked that, that restorative justice uses versus re, re versus like. 

[00:41:01] Tatiana Chaterji: retributive. 

[00:41:02] Miko Lee: Yes. Cannot say that word. So talk a little bit about the difference in our current system, which is this punishment base versus a restorative justice based. What kind of questions are different? 

[00:41:13] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, definitely. Uh, uh, and, and to say that it’s not just oppressive, capitalistic, it’s also very transactional, that our relationships are not human. They’re about just what people can get from them. And I’m seeing that just a lot. Um, but Howard Zer, I think is one of the people that I would credit with these contrasting questions in our current system, in, in sort of punitive and criminal or carceral spaces, the questions are who what law or rule was broken?

[00:41:40] Who broke it? You know, who’s at fault? And then what should be the consequence? And often consequence means punishment or retribution. It means a payback because you broke a law. And in that system, the law or the institutions, right, is. Is is more important than the person and the victim or survivor is invisible.

[00:42:02] They are not even really of concern. And our, that’s how our criminal legal system works. You don’t really often have to consult a victim or a survivor around what they want to have happened because they literally don’t matter. Their, their voice is taken away. It’s the state of California versus the person who is accused of a crime vis-a-vis the person who’s hurt or their mother, their community versus someone who, who has caused harm in a restorative approach.

[00:42:30] We ask. What the heck just happened? What, what’s going on? You know who was harmed? Who else was affected? And what needs to happen to make things right? And that what needs to happen to make things right? Also includes who needs to do what. So it’s going into the impact, the needs that arise from that impact, and then the obligations that. flow from there. So it’s a really sort of, it’s a more holistic and humanizing approach to situations that are complex. There’s always a backstory, and that backstory isn’t to justify the harm, it’s to give the context.

[00:43:14] It’s to understand how things happen. I have, I’m now a mom, I have two kids. If something’s going on at school or if my child is blamed for something, I have to ask what prompted this kid to do the thing? I mean, when you’re a parent, you really feel it quite closely, but it’s there all the time. There’s sort of, there’s cycles that get played out in any number of of problems that we attend to.

[00:43:38] Miko Lee: Thank you for breaking that down so clearly. We’re living in this time right now where the Epstein files are just being released and every day there’s a different story in the news. And I’m just wondering for folks right now that may be triggered every time they’re listening or reading or what, taking in the news, what are some RJ methods for coping with that?

[00:44:01] Tatiana Chaterji: My gosh, I’m one of these people that is triggered constantly and I just wanna give a shout out to all the survivors of, um, of child sexual exploitation, commercial sexual exploitation, and um, uh, sexual violence, all the, the, um, the predatory stuff that happens on the streets in my community and definitely at the schools where I’ve been. It is extremely. Unjust on the local level, and we’re seeing it at these, at the scale, right? Of power. So blatant, 

[00:44:34] Miko Lee: so big, so international, so wild. 

[00:44:39] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. So in terms of how can RJ help, I mean, I would say that there is such a lack of any kind of accountability right now for the harm doers for people who have caused harm. There’s no, there’s not, there’s not, there’s not punishment, right? If you wanna look at retributive justice, there’s not sort of 

[00:44:57] Miko Lee: no accountability. 

[00:44:58] Tatiana Chaterji: There’s no accountability, but there’s no compassionate encounter with with people who have done harm either. I mean, the framework I guess I would offer is the social relationship window. Um, ol and waktel, Ted Wachtel, various people have reenvisioned it, Dorothy Ving, and if you get the book, you can see all that. So that legacy, but that we sort of, we hold people who are causing harm. We hold them with love, and we also hold them with with a clear structure and boundary around what’s acceptable.

[00:45:28] And so we’re not sliding into a permissive zone where where we just let it go and enable the behavior to happen. And we’re also not trying to dehumanize people who have caused harm and only see them as as monsters. I, I don’t know, miko when it comes to people with such. Positional power, privilege, and just impunity. I, I don’t know if I would apply that to the, to the perpetrators, right, to the people who, who are responsible for such harm right now. Like, that’s not the conversation that I’m interested in having. I think, yeah, I, I don’t know. Maybe I’m messing up this question. 

[00:46:02] Miko Lee: No, you’re not. I’s so complicated because as an abolitionist, you know, I don’t want these. I don’t want people to be incarcerated necessarily, but these are some hideous, awful people that are like, so how do, how do you like wrestle with that? 

[00:46:18] Tatiana Chaterji: I think it’s like the, there’s individuals right, who cause harm, but I think the main thing is that there are systems that allowed this harm and are allowing and have continued this harm to happen. I, 

[00:46:29] Miko Lee: and it’s perpetrated. It’s still going on. 

[00:46:30] Tatiana Chaterji: Right? Right. So I think like it’s really about dismantling these systems and, and shining the light on what is there that we don’t always see because we are caught up in the interpersonal, right. And so much of conversations about oppression will get into interpersonal because that’s what we see.

[00:46:46] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:46] Tatiana Chaterji: So students and community members will feel that someone is racist because someone has made a comment or this, that and the other. They’re not seeing the kind of racial capitalism, the structure of poverty and what’s baked into our laws that are behind it. So I think what circle and what restorative justice spaces can do is for me as someone who resists.

[00:47:08] Racial capitalism and resists structural inequality and the existence of poverty and racialized poverty in the way that it is, that it is. I think it is a space for dreaming together, for, for identifying shared struggle. What are the common things that we’re dealing with? A circle is really good because it breaks people out of isolation that they think they’re grappling with a thing on their own, and actually it is shared by other people and perhaps everyone.

[00:47:38] So then from that place of shared struggle, what do we dream that, could be different? And how do we, organize together? I see the healing component of storytelling and of channeling grief and rage as connected to action and, and strategy. So that’s primarily what I would say. Thank you for that question, for this timeliness. Yeah.

[00:48:02] Miko Lee: I’m wondering what you want folks to understand after reading your book. What do you want them to walk away with? 

[00:48:09] Tatiana Chaterji: I think I want people to maybe f feel a, a little bit more confident that they could to the heart of pain with students and with others in your life, that there are frameworks and structures or ideas that can really. Hold you and support you in navigating that hard stuff or that even to study it. Maybe I want people to be curious about how do people create justice? What is, what is healing based justice look like? What’s possible? Let’s study it together because it takes a lot of work. It’s not apparent. Our media and Hollywood, they glamorize, you know, there’s propaganda.

[00:48:58] There’s just like a glamorous portrayal of vengeance and that humanity, we can have vengeance, but we can also have other things. And those things might be the ones that we, the, the healing based justice systems is what we want when it’s representing our best selves and what could help us and future generations.

[00:49:17] So to walk away with a little bit of hope. To not throw away RJ because of your past experiences where it sucked. RJ often sucks because of how, because of any number of factors and that it doesn’t, don’t give up. Don’t give up. It can be better. And it, and, and there’s some things that we can all learn, including myself and any of my own mistakes, that there’s perhaps, it’s still worth fighting for and it’s still worth trying, and that we can do it slowly with care, with intention, and to give that.

[00:49:51] Allowance that people aren’t going to be always ready, and it’s not their fault. They, that doesn’t make them less good or smart or wise or politically, you know, savvy. It’s that there’s so much that we are working against all the time to, and, and our survival mechanisms are very toxic. We don’t really treat each other well, and that’s on purpose. In fact, we tear each other down and that’s, how, systems are allowed to continue to exploit us. So, yeah, that’s, it’s kind of a mouthful, but maybe a little bit of that, like a little bit of inspiration to try things on.

[00:50:26] Miko Lee: Okay, I wanna go back. Can you give a breakdown of what copaganda is? 

[00:50:32] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh, I mean, copaganda is what we all, I mean, I consume it certainly. It’s like the, it’s Paw patrol, it’s my kids getting exposed to superhero dogs that are the police because they quote unquote save the day. So it’s these stories that the police are going to help. And in fact, we should look for them. There was a one time at a story circle, this person was reading a book and the, and the refrain was, help is on the way. Help is on the way. It gets kept going through any number of crises. That, anyways, just to say that help is not always on the way, as many of us know from trying to seek police protection from harm.

[00:51:14] And that when it does arrive, if it does, that it can cause harm to us, that we can be the target of it, especially if we’re disabled or marginalized in another way. So propaganda is so pervasive, but it’s this idea that the police will will help us. And we’ll keep us safe. And I know from personal experience, my students know that that’s not always true. So then what is the alternative? We kind of like add our voice and creativity into the mix, which is also very hard because it’s a lot to work through. People are so culturally accustomed to thinking about external sources of help and protection from the state. You know? 

[00:51:52] Miko Lee: And many marginalized communities have created their own pods of safety, like the Black Panthers and queer and trans folks because they knew that they could not rely on the cops to be able to help.

[00:52:04] Tatiana Chaterji: Absolutely. Yep. And that’s how I learned with Insight, women of Color against Violence, learning from people, immigrant women, sex workers, people who are not protected, who could not, or undocumented immigrants who couldn’t call on the state for help. What. What do they need and how do they create that for themselves?

[00:52:22] Mimi Kim was a big inspiration for me. So in my politics, kind of like trying to bring more people into this, right? Like, what, what does it look like when you talk about abolition? And students are like, no, are you kidding? Like, we can’t get rid of prisons. And, and, and that is absolutely okay to have that conversation and to sort of open up the possibilities there, recognizing that many people have not even gotten the kind of justice or protection that a prison might afford for some people and maybe has in some instances. Right? So to start with that and to be like, you deserve better now. You deserved better, your family deserves better. 

[00:53:00] Miko Lee: You deserve food and shelter. 

[00:53:02] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. 

[00:53:02] Miko Lee: The basic things. Yes. 

[00:53:04] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. 

[00:53:05] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate it. So I found this quote in your book by Aurora Levin Morales, and I’m just wondering, please read that quote for me, and then tell me the why. Why you included this, why it’s so important.

[00:53:20] Tatiana Chaterji: Aurora Elevens Morales is this poet who has given me so much inspiration with her work. And this quote was on the website of Restore Oakland, where I’ve partnered and I just, uh, shout out to Kari and Tash and everyone. So she says, for what is revolution, if not healing? And I put it, uh, to start off my I think it’s the conclusion, breathing in shards from a broken sky, new air, and new lungs.

[00:53:46] And I kind of put forth this idea of RJ lungs, which really like strength are, are, are strong with the power of empathy and connection. And yeah, I think that political work and change making happens with healing, it’s before and after and all around that there has to be that synchronicity between healing what’s wounded and, and, and giving us space for that while also activating change that they shouldn’t happen in these bubbles, which I think is, uh, more and more people are embracing that interplay between the two. It’s not just you, you heal over here and therapy. You do your political work where you burn out and people are getting abused and hurt all the time. It’s like more we should hold all of our human messy selves in the political work. 

[00:54:35] Miko Lee: Thanks so much. And then my final thing is you included a quote by a ninth grade student. Could you share that quote with me and 

[00:54:43] Tatiana Chaterji: Yes. 

[00:54:43] Miko Lee: Why it’s so important? 

[00:54:44] Tatiana Chaterji: One of my, um, teacher comrades Danielle Zimmerman, this quote came from one of her students in a writing exercise. And Ms. Z is someone who just really embraces RJ in all, in, in all ways. And so the student says, feed your heart with love, forgiveness, hope, and healing words. There is no other way to survive. And I think for me, it’s like if we are supposed to live in this world, if we want to live here, and we are taught that we have to be hard, we have to protect ourselves and be harsh and battle the hostility, uh, what is going to happen to us as a result? How are we shaping the, the, the next generation, our families the school environments that we’re part of, so that instead of that hardness feed yourself with this love, with this softness, with the power of of tenderness and and healing and it just, yeah, this student is so brilliant.

[00:55:46] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for listening tonight. Remember to reconnect to your ancestral technologies and hold in the power of tenderness.

[00:55:55] Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.

The post APEX Express – 3.19.26- The Power of Tenderness appeared first on KPFA.