A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight join Host Miko Lee as we focus on the APSC4. We will be doing a short series on the members of the Asian Prisoner Support Committee’s campaign for justice. In this first episode we speak with all four leaders, advocates from APSC4 including: Peejay Ai, Maria Lagarda, Kee Lam, and Chanthon Bun. They are staff at Asian Prisoner Support Committee who work with formerly incarcerated folks and their families. They provide support like jobs, healthcare, education, community. And yet, despite their work and their personal transformations and community transformations, they remain in immigration limbo and are at risk of being detained by ICE and potentially deported. Tonight, we hear their personal stories. We learn about movement building and talk about how you can get involved. And just a note for listeners that we will be talking about experiences with war. trauma, sexual assault, and violence.
APSC 4: https://action.18mr.org/pardonapsc3/
APSC Website: https://www.asianprisonersupport.com/
APSC Donation Page: https://donate.givedirect.org/?cid=13…
APSC Get Involved Page: https://www.asianprisonersupport.com/apsc-4
Twitter: / asianprisonersc
Facebook: / asianprisonersupportcommittee
Instagram: / asianprisonersc
Arriving: APSC4 Part 1 Transcript
Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.
Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:34] Welcome to our multiple part series about the members of the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, APSC4, and their campaign for justice. First up is an interview with all four. In the next episodes, we’ll be diving into their individual stories. Special thanks to the HHREC podcast for allowing us to re-air their shows, which will be linked in our show notes.
Miko Lee: [00:00:56] Tonight on Apex Express, we have members of the APSC4, Asian Prisoner Support Committee’s formerly incarcerated leaders, advocates, and healers. We are talking with Peejay Ai, Maria Lagarda, Kee Lam, and Chanthon Bun. They are staff at Asian Prisoner Support Committee who work with formerly incarcerated folks and their families. They provide support like jobs, healthcare, education, community. And yet, despite their work and their personal transformations and community transformations, they remain in immigration limbo and are at risk of being detained by ICE and potentially deported. Tonight, we hear their personal stories. We learn about movement building and talk about how you can get involved. And just a note for listeners that we will be talking about experiences with war. trauma, sexual assault, and violence. Thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. Welcome APSC4 to Apex Express. I am so happy to have you here. I want to start with a question that I love to ask of everyone, which is from the amazing poet Chinaka Hodges. And the question is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Let’s start with Peejay.
Peejay Ai: [00:02:12] So I am Peejay. I am Cambodian of origin. My mom and dad are Cambodian. We have part Chinese somewhere in our genes. When I think about legacy, I think about my culture, my upbringings, you know, my, my parents cares with them. I Also have experiences in incarceration, and obviously through my journey in life, I have this legacy as well, where I’ve learned some stuff and I have met people through the prison system. When I think about my people, I think about the people I’ve come across with who helped me grow in life, you know, and the foundation that my parents taught me when I was a kid. That’s kind of my legacy. I think about the people I’ve come in contact with, my community, my parents, what they teach me about my ancestor. And now that I’m working heavily with the CERI community, Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants here in Oakland, you know, I’m co facilitate the Men’s Elders group. So, with them, they teach me a lot about culture, a lot about my roots and where I came from. And so I’m relearning who I am as a person and redefining myself. And also reminded that, you know, beyond my experience, there’s a foundation of Cambodian cultural, right. and heritage, you know, behind me. So that’s kind of what I think about when I think about my people and I think about my legacy.
Miko Lee: [00:03:29] Thank you so much, Peejay. Bun, what about you? Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?
Chanthon Bun: [00:03:36] I’m Cambodian. My people are Khmer people. The legacy that I have is resilient. My family have lived through, through a lot of systems even my grandparents being Khmer from colonization to the genocide to, coming to America. My family have endured a lot. so the resilient in us still live and that’s the legacy I carry.
Miko Lee: [00:03:58] Thank you so much. Bun, I’m going to ask you about resilience later, because that is a key thing I get from y’all. Maria, what about you? Tell me about your people and what legacy you carry with you.
Maria Legarde: [00:04:09] Who are my people? I’m a Filipina immigrant, so my people are the survivors. You know, those that dealt with a lot of that, that had a lot of challenges growing up, right? And didn’t have a voice. So those are my people. My faith community are my people, my elders, my Lolas, and my mylas, my mentors, those that shaped me and who I’m becoming today. Those are my people. The legacy that I feel that what I’m leaving an imprint here on earth is being the voice for those that cannot express themselves. For those that do not have a voice right now and are scared. And I want to be that voice to let them know that they’re not alone.
Miko Lee: [00:04:54] Ke Lam, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?
Ke Lam: [00:04:58] My people are my incarcerated. Those are incarcerated. Those that got deported, and those that are living in fear are my people. Because I understand the struggle, I understand the fear, I understand the trauma. The legacy I carry with me is all the advocates before me that have done this work that, you know, that put their life on the line. As well as my grandfather who came to this country, you know, struggling to raise a whole family, whole generation. I think the other part of my legacy is. breaking the, the, the cultural cycle. Like my grandfather never hugged my dad, but I hugged my dad, gave my dad that hug. And so, and, and that progression is going towards my, my siblings, as well as even to other men that was incarcerated. That never got a hug from their father.
Miko Lee: [00:05:50] Thank you all for sharing your stories of who you are and your sense of resilience and giving voice and incorporating your culture. I know that each of you have had incredibly deep and profound experiences and thank you so much to the HHREC podcast, which is allowing us to air interviews that you did already sharing your stories. I have heard your stories also and I’m just wondering what is that like for you to continue to tell your stories again and again? How do you sustain reliving that type of trauma by sharing your stories?
Chanthon Bun: [00:06:25] You know telling our stories is really traumatic. But we’ve learned how to heal from a lot of our traumas without healing from your trauma, it’s hard to tell that story. And when you tell that story, it comes alive again. With that, I believe it’s so important for our elders and our youth, especially like Peejay, myself and Maria. We are the 1.5 generation. I truly believe that we bridge these generation, you know, where we could relate to our younger folks. And then our elders, we still hold the tradition that they’re used to. Telling our stories is bridging the experience, you know, bridging the past and the future with the present of our stories. For me, a lot of it is because when I grew up, I didn’t have stories like this. I had to live it and made mistakes as I went. I didn’t have somebody telling a story of how an immigrant could learn this culture. I did it all with mistakes that I’ve made and lessons that I’ve learned. And then passing it down. I mean, there’s a lot of folks that are in my shoe. There’s a lot of folks living the life that I live that still don’t understand and still can’t heal. And, you know, I’m just hoping that the shared experience could start a conversation of healing.
Peejay Ai: [00:07:44] Yeah, I think for me, sharing my story over and over again it is healing in some instances, and sometimes, you know, living, reliving trauma is very difficult. And I’m learning to like, do my work, you know, as an advocacy with APSE, and through my own experience through restorative justice practices that, sharing my story, it could be empowering for other people to share, right. I think I grew up. In this API community or silence, you know, and it’s a shame to talk about, your experience, right, airing out your laundry, pretty much, you know, your personal experience could be very shameful but what that does, and I’m learning, like, you know, like, when you have trauma. and you don’t talk about it, you know, you become silent. It’s affects you, you know what I mean? It affects your life. It’s affects your health. It affects your community and your family. So now as I’m reframing the way I look at my story is that I’m using as a tool and to share, so that other people could, could learn and know, but also feel empowered to share their story. You know, I think storytelling could be a very powerful thing for a community, right? Not just Bun have said, like provide healing, right. But. Also, I think like it provide teaching, you know, like when I hear my elder share their story, it teaches me about my history, my culture, what they’ve been through, but also it also like reaffirmed that, I’m on the right track, you know, that healing could happen by watching, you know, my elder shed tears from their story by hearing their emotion and feeling their emotion and seeing it with my own eyes, you know? I think like storytelling is a very powerful tool for us and I think more people should tell their story because they have something to offer, you know, and I think we should always tell our stories. So, what’s once was like a very difficult thing to do now become something that I know is very purposeful and empowering.
Miko Lee: [00:09:19] Thanks Peejay Maria. What about for you? How is it for you telling your story again and again?
Maria Legarde: [00:09:24] Sharing my story like I always get emotional. So, it’s very hard for me, because I relive it, but I use it as a tool now, as it’s a powerful tool, you know, going through it, sharing it, like it just happened yesterday. Because when I share my story, especially with the young women, it makes it real for them. To know that I’ve been there, like, I’ve been there too, I know it, I know what she’s feeling. And, sharing it, what did I do, how did I do it. Painting the picture for them, not to traumatize them, but to show them how I got from not being able to speak about it. To talking about it to healing and then taking control over my life, and then becoming empowered by the struggles that I gone through all those years. It just didn’t take me one year, took me 15, 20 years, even today, you know, so to share that I know that when I plant that seed, it’s not because to traumatize them or to make them relive it. There’s that collective power in it, the collective healing in it, that that’s what got me to share my story in the first place. When I heard all the other women share it, I’m not alone. For the first time in my life when I heard it, I didn’t feel alone. Because I knew somebody believed me. When the people that were supposed to believe me didn’t believe me, they believed me. You know, so I, that’s the gift that telling that story gives another, individual. That life, it’s, pass it forward, you know, that’s why I was so happy with the Me Too movement because it’s a collective power within us. So like with Bun and with Peejay, the intergenerational healing from our, you know, the trauma within our family. Because of that, I know I can share it with my family and we start talking about it because they’ve seen me do it. Like how is that that young girl was able to talk to you like that? I was like, because she knew that I believed her. The moment she told me, she knew I believed her. it opens the door for healing in my family, in my community. So that’s why I, today, I use that as a tool to bring people together, collective healing.
Miko Lee: [00:11:42] Storytelling as collective healing and being able to, be heard and open the door for other people to share their stories as well. Thank you so much for sharing about that. Kee Lam, I’m wondering if you could talk about the resilience it takes to tell your story again and again, what is that like for you
Ke Lam: [00:12:02] Each time I tell my story is almost like an awakening. It, is reliving a lot of that trauma, but it’s also like reminding me of what I’ve been through and, and I’m still here. it’s also for me is, Self love, being able to share it because I’m hoping that I can be an encourager to those who don’t know how to share a story or who are afraid to share a story. And so when I, the reason I put myself out there all the time is like, who better to, Encourage somebody and somebody that’s been through it all as well. when I help, you know, restore your justice circles, people told me the way through is through the fire. and it’s not easy to share a story sometimes because it’s so traumatic. But one thing that encouraged me all the time is when I see other people. And I see them when they share the story that there’s like a burden that was taken off shoulders. I see the difference when somebody able to feel like they could release some of that harm that was put on them and find healing and then find, strength in a community that support them through their struggle. And so that’s why I keep sharing my story because I believe that. it takes all of us to bring voice to the hurt and pain that we, we had throughout so much generations.
Miko Lee: [00:13:14] Thank you for sharing angela Davis talks about how prisons are meant to break human beings. I’m wondering how each of you. what tool you drawed on to stay strong while you are incarcerated and how different that is, like, what mental health support do you do now? Do you have a daily practice to stay resilient now? And did you have something different when you were locked up?
Chanthon Bun: [00:13:38] Yeah, that is so true. Prison is meant to break you. And there’s many times while I was incarcerated for my 23 years that, I was fighting that, that don’t break me. You know, I still had the fight in me. You’re not going to break me. even during my long years in solitary, I just, there was something in me, like I say, there’s some resilience in me that, innately told me, like, do not let them break you, you know, mentally, physically. but yeah, during my, the hardest time where I felt like, you know what, this, this is getting too hard for me, being isolated, not having human contact. And, you know, the only thing on my skin is concrete and, and metal. I often look back to. My grandparents, I often look back to their teachings, their lessons that they’ve shown me through the years when I was young. and sometime, I use my trauma, you know, I, grew up in the refugee camp. It was hard. I was starving there. and it’s weird how like you use a bigger trauma. To cope with this trauma, you know, it’s like, man, I, when I, when I was a kid, I had nothing to eat. So I lick salt, you know, . They gave me three meals a day. I think I’m doing better than I used to be. So it’s like, it’s it was kind of crazy way to, think about it. And, and I think because I had so much trauma as a child. It really helped me to be resilient when I was incarcerated. And like, it really helped me to empower myself. And then, and then it really helped me to think about what is resilient? at first I didn’t even know what it meant. People tell me, I was like, yeah, whatever. It was just, Something I do, like when folks like, damn, you’re so resilient, like, I’ve been like this all my life. I don’t know. I don’t know what the gauge of resilience you’re giving me. I’ve always been a person like, I’ll figure this out, you know, as long as I survive, I’ll figure it out. So, if you let them, it will break you. You look deep inside you, and you look at your life, and just like me, a crazy way was, I’ve been through worse and I could do this too.
Miko Lee: [00:15:32] Before you get to you stay resilient now, Maria, I see you smiling a lot. I wonder if you want to respond to that. About prison breaking, meant to break human beings.
Maria Legarde: [00:15:43] I, I, because I agree with what Bun was saying, you know, it’s like trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma. Which one’s worse? There’s really, like, is, this trauma is really worse than this trauma? Because I both came out of it, you know, so give me more. Is there anything more that you can give me, right? So it becomes a defensive mechanism for us. And Bun said, I didn’t know what resilient means. too, when I was in prison, what does resilient mean? I said, I know English is my second language, but, , you know, I don’t know what that meant for a human being to be resilient and what it embodies. So that’s why I agreed. And I smile because, yep, we didn’t know we were resilient because we’ve been fighting to survive. We’ve been fighting to just to live another day.
Miko Lee: [00:16:28] Peejay, what about you? How did you stay strong when you were locked up?
Peejay Ai: [00:16:32] There’s many factors, right. But I think like one factor I share with Bun, like I grew up on the street. It was hard, you know, I grew up poor. I grew up on welfare. I grew up, you know, as a refugees, you know, coming to America, doesn’t speak the language, was bullied, you know, was victim of school shooting to the point. Right. And like, there’s. Certain things in my life that really, like, shaped me and, like, pushed me really hard. And so I knew I was different. I knew I was, like, you know, like, the deck is stacked against me. And so I think, like, experiencing it as a young person, I become numb to it. And so when I hit prison, and I went, you know, I went to Juvenile Hall, right? I went to Juvenile Hall. I went to the CYA. I went to prison. So as young person going through the prison system, I started to the lower level first and I can build resilience, you know, like teaching myself how to read, like learning, to accept hardship, right. Not being able to be isolated, not to be like in a cell locked up for many, you know, for many days, sometime many years or two, right. I think the one thing that really shaped my life the most is when I was in Solano State Prison. And I was just like, this was like new. I turned 18, they sent me from CYA. To Solano, and one night my mom came to visit me and, she was just so dumbfounded by like, what she hear about prison. And then she asked me, how am I doing with everything? And then I explained to her, like what the environment is like, and I didn’t candy coat it for her, but I just explained it to her and she couldn’t understand why people would continue to harm each other in prison. We’re all in the same boat, you know, like we’re all in the same boat, we’re locked up away from our family, like, why are we not together helping each other out? Right? And then there’s one thing she said was I stuck with me today. She said life is hard, you know what I mean? Like, and it could be harder, you know what you make of it, right? Like, you’ve got the choice to make it easier if you want to, like, Your circumstance were always going to be the same, right? But you have a choice to make it worse. And I’m sitting there like, man, that’s just makes so much sense to me. You know, like, why are we making much harder on ourself? Right. so then I started looking at life much differently. I think her statement for me was at the moment I had, it’s like, you know, things are hard, right, but I can always make it harder for myself and things could always be harder too, right? So why not enjoy You know, things that is around me and try to make a difference in my own self. Right.
So from that concept, I started developing resiliency. You know, I started, I looked at it, I started reframing life differently. Right. I started thinking about like, well, I don’t have nothing to eat, you know, like doing lockdowns, I think about, yeah, well, people starving all over the world too, you know, like, you know, So it just kind of gave me strength, you know, as I learned to reframe my environment over and over again. And then I started to develop, like, start to like find opportunity to create better opportunity for myself. I went and got a job, you know, I worked in a kitchen and I fed myself and I, went to school and I got a, education and I started getting in the program. And so, you know, I started really thinking about like, How do I make my life better? You know, I call it my life, despite what I, you know, very little I have, I make the best of it. Right. So I think like that kind of echo out in my whole life until I got to the ICE detention center, you know, I’m reminded like, Oh, it’s pretty bad down here. at that point, I’m like, I’m used to this already, you know, I’m used to reframing things to become positive, right? No matter how negative it is, you know, I try to find the best of it. Right. Conditioning through like hardship, hard time when I was a kid, all the way to my adulthood, even now, you know, like things get hard, with this new immigration policy and stuff, there’s a lot of fear. I mean, I’m constantly reminded that I’m not alone, you know, I’ve built community throughout my life, I’m creating opportunity, for healing. And so I should focus on what I have that is positive versus what I don’t have that is negative, you know, let’s cherish the moment, you know, cherish my friendship, you know, cherish my opportunity, right. And my freedom and soul. So that grounds me, that reminded me that, can get better and it will get better. I just got to keep that faith alive and just keep hope alive and just keep moving, you know. When I go through prison and I survive all the hardship, it’s grounded myself on knowing that, you know, like, people in the world have it so much worse, you know, and sometimes we have a choice to make things better for ourselves, but we have to choose to make it better, right? You can’t focus on the bad things. Problem solving, you know, don’t focus on a problem, like, let’s focus on a solution. What can you do different right now to make it better?
Miko Lee: [00:20:11] Thanks Peejay key. I’m wondering how you were able to stay strong when you were incarcerated.
Ke Lam: [00:20:17] Wow. , at first when I first started, on my. Committed offense. I went through the whole system. I went to all one time. I went to juvenile hall, youth authority, county jail, prison and immigration all on one case. It took a while. living straight strictly on survival mode. It’s almost no different than when I was growing up. My family moved around constantly and it was just either you survive or you become a victim. And I started off my early life being a victim and then I learned, how to normalize violence, growing up in a predominantly African American community. And that actually, sadly prepared me for my committed offense, be doing time inside. It wasn’t easy. one thing I learned was not to be, you know, to be a tough guy. just go there, mind your business, do your time, be very observant. That’s one thing that did help me a lot in life is being observant of what’s going on around me, being conscious of what’s going on around me. And the other thing is. Try not to take too much stuff personal, but it wasn’t until I started going through self help classes that I became more in tune with learning about empathy, compassion, forgiveness, not just forgiving others and receiving forgiveness from others, but also learning how to forgive myself for a lot of the stuff that I allow myself to go through and the things that I’ve done to others. I think the other part of me was becoming really spiritually grounded was another big part of me was, I started out practicing Buddhism. My first, you know, my first stay for, like, 10 years of incarceration. then I converted to Christianity. no denomination because I don’t believe in being a religious person. I believe in being spiritual. So a lot of people are like, what’s your religion? I say, I don’t have one, but I do believe in a higher power. I believe that, you know, we are spiritual being experiencing a human experience. so it’s a mixture of what I learned in Buddhism and Christianity is learn to have compassion for everything around me, including myself, and part of that compassion the biggest part that actually helped me to prison was. one thing that I never got from my father and he never got from his father was a hug. So I start hugging guys, giving people hugs, guys, on a yard, you know, so nationality did not matter to me. you know, I didn’t grow up. biased against a lot of different people. I learned to embrace a lot of different cultures. and then one thing by going through the self help classes, learning to connect with people on a human level, besides what t they believe in or what they look like. And so once I was able to do that, I started experiencing a lot of healing for myself and for them.
Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:22:50] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, 97.5 K248BR in Santa Cruz, 94.3 K232FZ in Monterey, and online worldwide at kpfa.org.
Miko Lee: [00:23:10] I’m wondering what each of you do, what is your personal, like mental health support that you do now to be able to stay, stay resilient, stay in there. Maybe you all have touched or feel like you’ve answered this already, or is there anything that you’re doing differently now in your daily practice?
Maria Legarde: [00:23:26] Do want to share something real quick, Miko, going back the quote, right? That prison is meant to break us. I was already broken when I went to prison. There’s nothing more that they can break me. That’s why I said it, like, give it to me more. What else can you give me? Because I’m already broken. You took everything from me. You know, everything was taken from me. What more can you do to break me? But then, you know, with my journey, faith as being my foundation, right, I believe that once, God gives you that second chance, right, for me. What do I want to make? With this chance, who do I want to be? So like a phoenix, you know, rise from the ashes, right? And so I utilized that and it didn’t take just one year, right? Took me in that journey. That throughout that 14 years to be who I am today. So I took that broken pieces of me and put it in a puzzle and made it into this beautiful product today, right? So my mental health, my wellbeing, emotionally, mentally, I always go back to my faith. Because it’s what saved me from when I got to prison. So when everything else is in chaos, I go back into that place. Go to my place within me that I can just be at peace. And meditate, listen to my music, be one in nature, so that’s my go to. And it helps when I know I have people, like my beautiful family here. it helps when I know that I don’t have to tell them. They can hear it from my voice and say, it’s gonna be okay, Maria. So that’s the kind of care. Without even having to say it, they just know. And that’s more effective than anything else.
Miko Lee: [00:25:16] Thanks, Maria. Peejay, you were going to add?
Peejay Ai: [00:25:19] Yeah, so one of the things that I adopted for myself when I was in prison is that I was heavily involved with the Native American spiritual circle, you know, because of my kind of Cambodian Background before Buddhism came through, we were indigenous, right? And so through my indigenous side of sharing with the Native American cultural there, they found a lot of similarity to us people, right? And so I was fortunate to be invited to join the spiritual circle, did ceremony with them. And so a lot of the spiritual practices that I have done with them, like, for example, like this sweat lodge ceremony, which are often used for healing or prayers. stay connected with the earth, stay connected with your creators, stay connected with the higher power and also like have an opportunity to pray for your family and do some healing and cleansing for yourself. So I still practice that today and sometime when I feel out of balance, when I feel like, you know, a lot’s going on and things are heavy and just stuff out of control and I need to find that balance again. You know, I go to ceremony, I go to ceremony here, here when I’m in the lodge. you know, it’s pitch black, the sweat leader brings in the stone that just represent grandfather, and your elders and when he poured a water on top of the stone and it’s pitch black, the steam comes out, you know, reminding me of like grandfather’s breath, right. The creator’s breath. And, you know, like that. And like being a sauna, people think about it being a sauna, like it washes away a lot of like toxins out of my body. It just, it washes away a lot of the hardship I’ve experienced as I leave it into the fire, you know, leave it into the steam and allow myself some time to like disconnect from the world around me and just reconnect with myself, you know, what am I experiencing at that moment, my breath, my pores opening, my heartbeat, you know, and, sometime, you know, people who are in the sweat lodge sing traditional songs and the sound of the drum. , And it wakes up my spirit, and it reminds me of who I am, where I came from, where I’m going. Yeah, and when I come out of the sweat lodge, I always feel like renewed, I feel energetic. I feel like I’ve been reborn again, right? And that helped me stay grounded on a very physical, spiritual, and emotional level. I think the other piece is that as I’m going through life, I’m celebrating it by, like, with family members, with a long walk with my family. Well, my, my dog, also help, just kind of like putting things in perspective, right. I found moments to do like me time, sometime yoga, even, you know, I, you know, the other day I did silver sneaker, because some of my elders like to do silver sneaker. . And that was like, very, powerful moment, right. And I feel like I guess it’s like what I’m learning is that, Those moments help me connect with myself. And sometimes that’s the thing that I need to do most when things are hard. sometimes working and responding to crisis disconnect me from myself and then when I start to refocus on myself, I realize where I need to be. then I feel empowered take the next step. That’s what keeps me going. Be aware of connecting with myself more often, right? You know, I because sometimes it’s easy to forget that I matters and forget myself.
Miko Lee: [00:27:59] Thank you for sharing. It’s really easy to get disconnect, disconnected in our world right now. So many things are hitting at us constantly. Ke. What about you? What are ways that you stay resilient?
Ke Lam: [00:28:10] I think for one is definitely take a lot of deep breath is grounding myself is definitely one thing. It’s so easy to get caught up in all the chaos around us, you know, hearing all the raids and pick up and who works, who works with ice. It is, it’s really, it’s depressing and it causes a lot of anxiety. One of the things I do besides breathing is I have wind therapy, wind therapy. I just learned what wind therapy is actually just riding my motorcycle, just going out there and just, you know, pick a location, just go, right? no plan. Just, just go. And most of the time I just go by myself. so I ride my ride. I zone out, play my music and I go, other things. I really, I actually been doing a lot lately is sitting with my dog and Just sitting there in peace and just quiet, just hanging out with my dog. Cause I lost my other one in October. And so the one I have now, I just meet her, just chill at the, on the sofa. I mean, on the ground, sofa on the floor, and sometimes we just go for long walks and just, don’t have to talk. you know, just being present and grounded with earth and with the environment around me. and then other thing is, you Just stay connected with family and community. you know, being able to slowly share like what’s going on while I’m feeling inside and outside. It’s been helpful.
Miko Lee: [00:29:22] Thank you. I think we all need as many resources as we can to find ways to stay connected to ourselves and our community right now. , I’m wondering both. Peejay and Ke, , touched on the fact that you have been involved in the like bad education to incarceration as a youth into adult incarceration and now potential deportation. Can you all give a breakdown about what crimmigration is and why it is important for people to know about it?
Chanthon Bun: [00:29:50] Crimmigration is, my simplest definition of crimmigration is double punishment. crimmigration is for folks that come here legally with papers, but then because of the IIRA IRA law of 1996 that states that any crime of moral sopropo you could be deported after you serve your time so you have to serve your whole sentence pay back to society what they say you got to pay back to society serve your sentence and after that deal with deportation consequences and that’s another question that we’re going through today Right with this new administration is who deserve to stay in who doesn’t and right now it’s so Convoluted where where you know, every day we’re getting new explanation who stays who goes who stays who goes and everybody talk about the law, it’s the law this, it’s the law that, the law says this, and they interpret the way they want to interpret it. But nobody that’s in power is talking about the family, nobody’s talking about the person, nobody’s looking into the person like, you know, a country of second chances, nobody talks about that, like yeah, there are criminals. send them out But we have folks that have served long term, like all four of us and we healed ourselves. we went to a parole board, the state of California, the governor approved that. We are no longer a threat to our community, our society, and also an asset to our community and society, right? But after that, immigration comes in like, we don’t even care. We just know you were arrested for this and this. And it’s time for you to go. And for a lot of our Southeast Asian families, that’s a hard thing to wait for your family member for 20, 30 years, and then get deported for life. And I only say that is because We suffer a lot of displacement. We suffer a lot of family separation. a lot of us are the ones that were saved during the genocide, during the war, the ones that survived. and then, this country doesn’t look at our history. Right. and our history is sold like you are blessed to have a second chance to come to this country and make something of yourself. Right. And that’s a totally blank statement. But then reality was, we came here with nothing. We came here with a lot of trauma, and we were just placed here with no explanation, no nothing. struggling to survive, struggling to understand this country. a lot of us like myself, fall into the criminal system. And we had, paid for what we’ve done. we’ve served our time and now to turn around our parents that are elderly now saying goodbye to them again. And, oh, that’s a misstatement saying goodbye. They don’t even let us say goodbye. You know, it’s not like, oh yeah, say goodbye to, no, you got to go. And the way it’s done is so cruelly done that, nobody ever think of the human. Nobody ever thinks of the heartbreaks, nothing. And right now, all I hear is the law says so. So we are a country of law, right? But we are human too.
Miko Lee: [00:32:56] Thanks for that rundown on criminalization. Peejay, do you want to add.
Peejay Ai: [00:32:59] Yeah, I think about, like, when I hear crimmigration, I think of, like, my own experience, you know, like, going through the pipeline list. I’m learning, like, there’s a pipeline. You know, between the criminal justice system to the immigration system in the criminal justice system, a legal system, you know, like for me, when I came to United States, we settled in a very poverish, violent, crazy community. Right. there was not a lot of resources, you know, and then there’s like a lot of gangs, a lot of like bias, racism was happening at the time. This is the time, like the war on drugs, tough on crime policy, it was out, and the prison boom. Right. Right. And so for me, I think like the lack of education, the lack of support was already like a prelude to my incarceration. Like there was a pipeline or established that one, one of these days, I’m going to be in prison because of all those X, Y, Z reason. And I’m not the only one. I think like that’s pipeline created, you know, hardship for a lot of people, and then, for many Southeast Asian community end up in prison because of like, Dealing with trauma, you know, like we didn’t have the resources to deal with a trauma, you know, it comes out in crimes comes out in gangs, it comes out and, you know, like adapting to environment by, being part of all this negative stuff. Right. And, you know, in a prison system. And, you know, unfortunately, a lot of us in being raised in prison, you know, learning about the prison system, through our lived experience, I have to suffer through it. Right.
And I think like what Bun said, you know, like, for Southeast Asian community. You know, being in prison system is just the first step, like surviving your environment, your resettlement is one thing, right? And then end up in a prison system is another step, right? And then the other step is that you end up in an ICE dentention center, simply not because of like what you did, it is who you are, like you were born with, you were born Asian or you were born an Islander, you were born, you know, API, right? And you have the immigration hole on you. And so they try to punish you again because of that very reason, you know, like if I was an American citizen. And I served my time, changed my life. I will be home. Right. I can give back to my community. I reconnect with my family. But for, you know, for API community, that’s not always the case. You know, like where are you pre preset that, you know, like after prison, you’re going to go into the immigration system and that’s where you’re going to take your next step, your journey. Right. And then after you, if you were to survive the immigration system, we will deport you, you know, and we’ll separate you from your family again. And often like stuff that makes sense, like Cambodian, for example, and this is true for Laos, Vietnamese, Hmong, and a lot of other Southeast Asian communities, right? Like we were refugees, you know, we came to this country, you know, as kids. So we’re not even born in the country that we left, you know, like I, I was never born in Cambodia. My mom left Cambodia during a genocide and I was born in Thai. So then I was in, they were trying to deport me to Cambodia to a country I’d never been to. I wasn’t even born there, you know, so it didn’t make no sense, right? But I feel like this, when I think about like crimmigration it’s a pipeline, you know, it’s a pipeline that it’s very biased, it treats us very differently. if you’re API, then you’re out of luck, if you’re API, you will be out of luck, you know, like you’d be treated differently. Right. and I, and I don’t think that’s a right system because it’s the exact opposite of what the American society is supposed to stand for. Right. You know, especially like California, and you’re like, we’re a very liberal community, right? Like, we’re a state that just, support, ideally, immigrants and all ethnic background. But then we treat people so differently, And not because of what I did, just simply because who I am.
Miko Lee: [00:35:54] Ke can you talk about the APSC4? What your campaign is about.
Ke Lam: [00:35:58] APSC4 is a campaign to save half of the staff from deportation back to a country that they have no ties to, , for me is Vietnam for Peejay and Bun it’s Cambodia and Maria to the Philippines. It’s basically trying to say, you know, we’re not the same, like people that served time and got released are considered, I consider is redeemed, we changed our lives, we made restoration for the harms that we’ve done, and we’re giving back to the community, and we’re showing that people with a second chance can make society greater. And by deporting APSC4, deporting people like us, you’re taking valuable resources from the community. People that understand the struggle and, the hardship that’s going on in our community. So we’re bringing voice to the voiceless. We’re bringing, light to those that are still in the dark. And the other thing, the biggest part of APSC4 is we’re hopeful for a lot of folks that are, not just impacted people, but for families. If APSC4 is able to get a part in, we’re showing the community that when we fight, we win. That together, we can not just save APSC4, but we can actually save our community. I think that’s one of the biggest mission of why we urge Gavin Newsom to pardon APSC4 is that way that we can show that not only are people that committed crime, not their crime, because so easy to label somebody that committed crime. You know, as that thing, right? , but we’re not, I think that’s the biggest part for me for APSC4 and I’d like to hear what Maria had to say on
Maria Legarde: [00:37:24] So much going through my head. APSC4 you know, we make up half of the staff for APSC, right? We represent the community that APSC serves. We’re directly impacted. We’ve been through immigration. We, you know, with our family reunification. APSC4 is the bridge between the people that are inside fighting for their freedom, what freedom looks like out here, how, when they’re out here, how they can bridge that gap in their community, how they can bridge that gap with their family, how can they start over by, you know, having a solid reintegration into a community that’s gonna be supportive of their success. Because they were given second chances, who they were when they were 20 years ago are different people today. And I think, you know, with Nia, with Danny, right, they received pardons from Governor Newsom, you know, and it was during that time, too, when all the immigrants were at risk. And so for us, APSC4, It would really be, a loss in the community because we bridged that gap, Miko. Like, when I first came home, Ke was my bridge. I was in LA, right? People didn’t know it, what to do for folks. immigrants coming home on parole. But we bridged it. Now LA knows what to do. LA knows where to start because Ke bridged that gap between local DMV, and head, Sacramento DMV. You know, that’s what community work and that’s what APSC4 is. We were the bridge, literally the bridge from our folks inside, to our community out here, to our elected officials that you invested in programs to rehabilitate us, to spend money on those rehabilitation, those fundings, and now that we’re here, you’re allowing you know, allowing an administration, like for your investment to just, what, go down the drain, because really that’s what it is. Only because we weren’t born here, only because of what we were dealt with at the time when we were facing challenges we didn’t know how to, but now we have all the tools and we’ve proven that we’ve held our community, because our community has spoken for us. You know, ask Governor Newsom to please pardon the community members that are coming home that are all at risk of deportation and it’s not just APSC4. very much. But we are being the voice for those that don’t know how to advocate for themselves. We’re showing them, look, we’re putting ourselves out here. Because we know the value that we hold today. And our community believes in us. And with their support, hopefully, Newsome hears that, you know, changes his mind, I don’t know. Do within his executive authority to save those people that are working in his vulnerable communities, in his marginalized communities, that are thriving, helping those communities thrive. And we are part of that. And we’re hoping that he does it in a manner where, because it’s imminent, we don’t know when we get to talk to our community members again, to you, to have this discussion again, and so that’s what APSC4 campaign is about.
Miko Lee: [00:40:50] And folks can find out more about the APSC campaign on their website, Asian Prisoner Support Committee, and we’ll also post it on the Apex Express website. And folks can meet all of these amazing guests in person at an event that’s happening February 28th from 6 to 8PM at Edge on the Square in San Francisco, Chinatown, where we will be hosting the reading from the book arriving. Can one of you talk about and and the other exciting thing about that is at that event, there’s actually a zine. That’s based on Maria’s life story called when we were girls, that they’ll be able to meet Maria and actually walk away with the zine. That’s for people to take people can make a donation to actually receive the book. Can one of you talk about the book and what that experience was like working on the book and about what this event is coming up at the end of February.
Chanthon Bun: [00:41:40] Arriving is our second anthology. the first anthology was called The Others. So, Arriving is a collaboration of incarcerated writers. I’m an artist in that book also. it was, it’s just stories. of folks that are incarcerated, API folks that are incarcerated, expressing, poems, expressing their trauma, expressing their live experience, expressing what it felt like to be API at a certain moment. in time with, immigration, with, coming to, uh, this country, acculturation, you know, we have, many different writers that, that collaborated with us. when I read certain, certain, writers, And they’re telling my story. They’re telling all our stories. So, if you guys can, check out, check out the second anthology, Arrival.
Miko Lee: [00:42:30] So we are recording this on the last day of January, 2025. And already in just a couple of weeks, our political system is in tumult based on Trump 2.0 policy. Can you talk a little bit about how, and I know the policy is changing daily. I mean, every day it’s this onslaught, but from what you know right now, how has this impacted your community?
Chanthon Bun: [00:42:54] The community is in fear. All day today I was driving around going to meetings, but getting phone calls right in the middle. What’s happening? What’s going on? I heard and there’s a lot of rumors. There’s a lot of fear out there and folks are catching up to rumors and, you know, our folks like, hey, they’re deporting us. Should I run? Should I stay? Should I check in? Should I check in with my family? Should I move out for a while? And it’s just a lot of fear. The sad thing is they’re calling me and they’re probably calling everybody from APSC. because we have a wide connection with our former incarcerated folks and folks that are under, final removal order. The hard thing is, Like what you said, I tell him the same thing. Like I know it’s fear. We have a lot of fear in our community. I know we’re all worried. for the kids, for the family. And I can’t give you no answers because it’s changing every day. I wake up, I look at the news is something else new. There’s something there. There’s something there. And every day since the inauguration, it’s just. hits our community and living with fear is such a mental breakdown. I had one guy, call me a friend of mine. He says, I do a door dash and I see them everywhere. What do I do? Like, I see them everywhere I’m living at. I see them in the corners. I see them eating in the restaurant. And, you know, I have to go pick up food there to drop off. and you know, the only thing I could really say, and it’s not even something that, could calm them. It was like, be careful, you know, be aware. I mean, it’s hard. I know it’s hard, a heart advice but I myself is living in that same fear. being aware, but still trying to uplift our community in times like this. I mean, this is not going to be the first or last time that our community are in fear. It’s happened before and we’ll get through it. You know, with our community strength, we’ll get through it. And the hard thing is, some of us won’t get through it. Some of us will be deported. But somehow, as a community, we have to stand strong together. We have to just brace this. And, hopefully, it’ll end soon.
Ke Lam: [00:44:57] Yeah, my biggest concern with what’s going on right now is when community, fight each other like good immigrant versus bad immigrants. you know, how to stay away from that narrative, right? how not to pit each other against each other. So I think that’s one of the things we seen on the first administration. and now with the second administration, especially when he’s talking about going a little harder on it. I worry that, you know, family will. Start separating within each other. And, you know, with the, political views, certain family members who support Trump, who doesn’t support Trump other part of the population I’m afraid of is those that are remaining silence. Those are that are hiding in the shadows. Right. Because they think by being invisible, they’re that, that they’d be safe when in reality they’re not. And so like, that’s what caused, that’s what’s going on with this new mission. It causes people to hide and by hiding, by being siloed, that they become more vulnerable. And then I asked that community don’t become like that. It’s like the shame culture in our, you know, in our generation, the Southeast Asian, where we don’t talk about nothing. Right. And that’s actually not really productive for healing at all. That’s actually the perpetuation of trauma. And so like we need to talk about crimmigration, criminal justice, we need to talk about social reform. Even something as simple as like, did you vote. That are who are able to vote like you need to vote. And don’t complain about what’s going on if you didn’t vote. And so that’s a hard conversation with our families, that I have with my family. You know, when they complain, I say, did you vote? No? Well, you got nothing to complain about. Right? But the other thing is, I think the other word that popped in my mind is proximity. How do we get our, people. To come close to the problem and to talk about it. We’re all close to the problem, but we don’t talk about it. And so like, you know, hopefully people like formerly incarcerated people, like APSC4, we’re making that difference. We’re bringing voice to our community that don’t want to talk about it. Even our community that fight against us and tell us not to remain silent. Like we’re like, no, like my family tell me, don’t talk about it. Like, I’m like, I’m going to talk about it. You know, either you’re with me or not, regardless, I’m gonna talk about it because we need to talk about we need to, we need to heal from all this trauma.
Miko Lee: [00:46:58] Thanks, Ke. Maria, what are your thoughts on how this new administration is impacting your population?
Maria Legarde: [00:47:05] Well, he succeeded in creating that climate of fear. That he wanted to, you know, that’s the one thing that he did, but like yesterday I was with a group of community members up here in the Central Valley, and, we were talking about how, you know, when I was growing up, 1986, it’s a revolution in the Philippines, when the church and the state, you know, it’s always separated, right? But it was that one time. That the church and the state stood together to overthrow a dictator. And if it happened in history once, right, I, there’s that hope. And so for my Filipino community that are in fear of what’s going on in Trump 0, especially the ones in SoCal, know, knowing their rights and everything that we’ve talked about for the last week already, right? It’s good to know those things, creating that space for them to talk is what my family is helping with others too. So here, my husband and my mom at work, like this is what needs to be done. You know, this is what needs to be done. There’s a lot of our Hispanic over there, in the community, and this is what you need to tell them, translate it, so we know what we need to do, so it’s our job to, disseminate the information and show them how it’s done, so for our Filipino folks, It was actually, you know, my family, some of my family members that gave me a call. It’s like, okay, so what do we do again? You know, I said, I’m going to send you some red cards in the mail if not printed. Like, well, I don’t have a printer. So just doing my part to make sure that my family is well equipped, their family, their community, wherever they’re at. It helps alleviate that fear. And I always tell them like, Yeah, sometimes it would creep in. And when it does happen to me, Bun knows, I go to Bun, I go to my mom, I go to my brother, I cry if I have to, because I just need to release it. And I tell them, just do it! If you need to yell, yell! But, you already succeeded. Then what? But like you said, you know, the laws are changing every day. And so, you earned it. Then fight for it. And when you fight for it, did things happen because you’re in this fight and you don’t give up and that’s what resilient people are. Immigrants are resilient. We’re the backbone of the economy. I mean, if they don’t know that by now, I don’t know what world they’re living in or what planet they’re living in, because we’re showing them that we are the backbone of the economy. You know, and without the hardworking immigrants, would America be really that great? Because we add to that greatness.
Miko Lee: [00:49:26] Thanks, Maria. Peejay, what are your thoughts on Trump 2.0 and the impact on the community?
Peejay Ai: [00:49:31] I think it’s terrorism, right? For me, I think, like, when I think about Trump 2.0, I mean, like, there’s a lot of stuff on the news about, Trump using anti terrorism, sentiment, to try to scare people into passing all these bills and justifying, treating other people as terrorism, but I think, like, we live here, like, we are being terrorized right now, by the whole Trump 2. 0 process, by, like, separating people from their family, creating fear, attacking people at their home, like, all those are, like, Formal terrorism, you know, I think to me is like, how do you treat human being that way? You know, and, I can’t believe that’s the best option that you could think of. Of how to solve whatever immigration problem that they feel like they’re having, but yeah, I think this is a way to like create separation between community, right? You’re pitting people against each other. Like you said, you know, like when people live.
Miko Lee: [00:50:11] in a classic divide and conquer mode.
Peejay Ai: [00:50:14] divide and conquer. Yeah. And I don’t think it’s fair, you know, I don’t think anyone have a right to treat human being that way, you know? create more trauma and justify it as the right thing to do. Cause I don’t think, creating that kind of pain. I mean, it’s human right. You know, but you’re violating, human right. And even the constitution of being violated and that, and people think it’s okay that is happening, you know, so if, if, and the constitution are created to safeguard people, right. Safeguard United States the citizen. Right. So if you can’t even honor your own constitution, how do you know anyone here is safe? I think we’re creating. A lot of damage, right? I think this administration is creating a lot of damage in this policy. And I think, I don’t think we’re going to recover from it. And people is going to wake up one day and realize that the people they care about is no longer there. And it’s going to be too late to be sad because, you know, they’re gone, right? and I think people should do something about it. You know, now we have a chance to come together as a community and fight back, you know, and keep each other safe and show the world like what community can do for each other, what it means to each other, right? And I’m, I’m sad, you know, I’m really sad. I have a lot of fear for myself, for my, brothers and sisters, APSE four, and I’m very sad for my community around me and the client that I serve, you know, I think it’s tragic. And we’re now, At this stage, you know, being in America, I mean, like, that’s just insane to me. yeah, I think terrorism has a very crazy definition and I think, you know, if you unpack it, you can see it happening in this, with the way people are being treated right now, from this whole process.
Miko Lee: [00:51:28] Feel like we all need what Ke’s saying, take a breath and, lean into the resilience we were talking about earlier. This is why I was asking you questions. You all are some of the strongest people I know, like how do we keep the strength? How do we continue on? I want to move us toward my last question for all of you, which is around a liberatory future and what does it look like? Dr. Bettina Love, who, as you all know, is an amazing teacher around abolitionism, talks about how abolitionist teaching is not just about tearing down and building up, but also about the joy necessary to be in solidarity with others. Knowing that your struggle for freedom is constant, but that there is beauty in the camaraderie of creating a just world. So my question for us to leave in a dreamy note, is what is your dream of a liberatory future? What does that look like for you?
Chanthon Bun: [00:52:22] I’m a father, grandfather. For me, a liberatory future is folks could just live with their family happy. Thank you. You know, we have the worries of, making money and all that, but beside all that, just having the breath to share with your, your family, you know, the feeling of true freedom, right?
Like, I don’t even know how that looks like or how it feels. Cause haven’t got there yet, but there’s moments when I spend with my kids and my grandkids. So I want that moment to be longer.
Miko Lee: [00:52:52] Thanks, Bun. Anybody else have their dream of a liberatory future?
Ke Lam: [00:52:57] For me, a future is where there is no us versus them. There is a place where community could come together, break bread, despite different languages. and then part of that is, where members of community that has been a silo for so long can actually come to, to ask for help. You know, there’s no fear to, right now I have a friend who’s so afraid to ask for help and in the shadow, because a part of it is also a liberatory future. It’s like, Not carrying on the shame of the past, breaking a lot of those intergenerational trauma. All right, where it’s, you know, it doesn’t matter if you’ve been convicted of a crime, if you’re a refugee, if you’re darks complected, or you’re like completed, there’s like no biases in a laboratory future where we share in each other’s wealth and happiness. your happiness is my happiness. And there’s no need to like, I need to have what you have to be on the same status like it’s like no social class, like, there is none. We’re all equal. You know, we all have universal health care and, and education, and it’s just, and universal childcare as well. We definitely need that because it’s so expensive, but it just, it just, for me, it’s a place where it’s like a utopia, a liberatory future. It’s like a dream. Right. And I think, A liberatory future is like one win at a time, but not just one small one, but big wins.
Miko Lee: [00:54:20] Thanks, Key. Peejay, what are your thoughts?
Peejay Ai: [00:54:23] I just want to not live in fear. you know I’ve Live in fear since the day I was born, and I continue to live in fear to today. And I feel that journey has not ended for me and my family. You know, fear from being murdered and fear from genocide, fear of incarceration, fear of family separation. You know, I haven’t had, I have not had a stable life. You know, until today, I’m still living in limbo, right? I was born into it. And so for me, it’s just not simple, you know, like I just want what any kid wants, you know, in a family, you know, to be loved, to feel safe, to be accepted. And to be with my family, that’s really all I want, you know, just to be a normal kid, to be a normal person with a normal life without having to be afraid all the time.
Miko Lee: [00:55:01] Thanks, Peejay. Maria, what are your thoughts on what does a liberatory future look like?
Maria Legarde: [00:55:06] Think for me, like, everyone shared, you know, what the future looks like. one thing is that not have, not looking behind me or, you know, just walking, enjoying a walk out there without having to fear that is somebody going to come out of that corner. want a future where, you know, finally I’m at a place in my life where I’m able to make Decisions, good rational decisions I’m able to take care of myself, my family, my loved ones, my community, I’m able to give back more than I thought I could, you know, and I’m living that life where I can actually make a difference. You know, who would have thought little old me? Is going to be able to make a difference in people’s lives. I just want to be able to continue that and love, you know, and share that love and joy and with everybody. And that’s the kind of future like what he said, you know, the kind of future where everybody would have the help that they need. If they need someone, they can go to the next person without having to fear if they’re going to get be judged or treated differently because of the color of their skin. Or because of the way they talk or because of the way they look, you know, I just want that kind of future where we can all be happy, and life is full of challenges, but I want that future that we, I know that we can all depend on each other and grow together. That’s the kind of future that I want.
Miko Lee: [00:56:27] Thank you so much to the APSC4 Peejay, Maria, Bun, and Ke for sharing your stories, your fight, your leadership, your advocacy, and also what does a liberatory future look like, which is just living without fear, being able to be with our families, being able to celebrate and take joy in beloved community, and not to have to worry, but just breathe and be with each other. I really appreciate y’all and all the work that you’re doing and encouraging our big community to come out and celebrate February 28th at Edge on the Square in San Francisco, Chinatown. Thanks, y’all. Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.
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