KPFA - APEX Express

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

The post APEX Express – October 8, 2026 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

The post APEX Express – October 1, 2026 appeared first on KPFA.

A story-driven 3-part audio project about Cambodian, Hmong, Laotian, Vietnamese, and other Southeast Asian families doing everything possible to breathe with ease and live freely besides the people we love. 

Created by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, and hosted by writer and activist Michelle MiJung Kim, My Family seeks to answer many of the questions countless families in our communities are grappling with today. Mass deportation and family separation are fueled by isolation and silence. With My Family, we aim to dismantle both with stories full of heart, compassion, and an honest look at the tangled paths many of us take to reckon with the past, rebuild our lives, and make a new place home. 

Our deep gratitude extends to all the community members who shared their stories with us, even while painful to recount. Their commitment to creating stronger, more informed communities is unparalleled. 

In our second episode, we take a closer look at what happens when people are forced into ICE detention, including after completing their sentence in state prison and transforming their lives. You’ll hear from NC, Pam, and Tony, who endured ICE detention in California and other states, as well as Elijah Chhum, executive director of New Light Wellness. 

Music from episode 2, as well as related resources, can be found below in the show notes. If you are an impacted community member in California or have a family member who is directly impacted by detention and deportation, we encourage you to contact APSC at [email protected] or our partners at New Light Wellness and the Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants. 

Music:

Resources:

A special thanks to Hmong Innovating Politics for their guidance on Hmong communities’ history and refugee experiences.

Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:00:00] Hello. Welcome to “My Family,” a project by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express. I’m your host, Michelle Mijung Kim. If you haven’t yet, I invite you to check out our first episode. We’ll include a tag in the show notes, which you can find at kpfa.org/program/apex-express/. As as [00:01:00] listeners may know, many Southeast Asians are in the United States after their families found refuge here in the ’70s and ’80s, fleeing genocide and violence in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos.

Most have loved ones who didn’t survive. The ones who did make it out, around one point one million, are the largest refugee community ever resettled in the US. Today, after decades of building a home in the US, these families are targeted by mass detention and deportation. According to the latest data, forty-two percent of all Southeast Asian deportations to date happened between 2025 and 2026. There’s been a twentyfold increase in the deportations of Southeast Asian elders. Amid the pain and fear, families are seeking answers. How did we get here? What can we do to keep our family safe and together?

That’s why I’m partnering with the Asian [00:02:00] Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, to bring our communities and families honest recounts of what is happening so that we can be there for each other. In today’s episode, we’ll focus on what happens in ICE detention.

Welcome to “My Family.”

 A content warning for our listeners that in today’s episode, we’ll be discussing incarceration, depression, and family separation.

We first met NC in our last episode. NC and his family are Hmong. Like many other ethnic groups in Laos, including Lahu and Mien, Hmong people’s stories are unfa– Hmong people’s stories are unfamiliar to many.

These ethnic groups and others have shared ancient roots in the central and southern– in the central and southern regions of China. About 300 years ago, they were forced to flee the Chinese government’s oppression and persecution. Many sought safety in the highlands [00:03:00] of Southeast Asia. NC’s family settled in N- N- NC’s family settled in Laos.

During the Vietnam War, the CIA recruited tens of thousands of Hmong boys and men, including members of NC’s family, to fight in a covert campaign in Laos known as the Secret War, which you can learn more about in the resources we’ll share in the show notes. Hmong fighters served behind enemy lines, rescued US planes, and risked their lives for Americans.

The Hmong soldiers were told that they were– The Hmong soldiers were told they and their families would be protected, but when the war ended, the Americans left, and thousands of Hmong were left behind. Facing persecution for their work with the United States, the Hmong were once again forced to flee. One– Facing p- facing persecution for their work with the United States, the Hmong were once again forced to flee to survive, rendering them stateless.

Thousands of Hmong families and other ethnic minority groups hid in the jungles or escaped on foot. Many died on the journey from starvation, drowning, and disease. NC’s parents, [00:04:00] his mom pregnant with him, finally crossed the Mekong River into Thailand. NC was born into a refugee camp there, and after some time, his family was brought to the US, first in Long Beach and later in Stockton, where his dad opened an auto body shop

As a young person, NC was convicted of a crime, which led him to being incarcerated for 24 years. On the day he was supposed to be released from prison last year, instead of finally, instead of finally being able to return home, he was picked up by ICE. He had planned to finish his college education and become a social worker, helping young people struggling with trauma and loss like he did.

ICE took him to Mesa Verde, a detention facility in Bakersfield, California. For years, people detained in Mesa Verde and other ICE facilities in California, and other facilities, and other f- and other ICE facilities in California have led hun– Oh my gosh. For years, people detained in Mesa Verde and other ICE facilities in California have led hunger and labor strikes to protest medical neglect, gruesome conditions, including a perpetual lack of food and clean water.

California Attorney [00:05:00] General Rob Bonta says the conditions are worse now, calling ICE’s facilities in the state, quote, ” cruel, inhumane, and unacceptable.” As of this recording, at least 24 people have died in ICE custody nationwide this year. We’ll hear from NC what happened after ICE agents brought him to the Mesa Verde ICE facility.

Here’s NC

NC (pseudonym): Yeah, it’s kinda… It’s hard because when you hit detention, it’s like you paroled, you’re happy that you paroled because you’ve been incarcerated, ’cause I’ve been incarcerated for like like 24 years, and like, you know, it’s the next step.

So it’s the next step to freedom. And while I went to a detention facility, you know, you know, it’s like the main thing is just try to get out, not, not to get into trouble, you know. um, so during that time, it was like you don’t have like, like… If you don’t have, like, money to hire an attorney, then basically it’s kinda like you trying to ask for a pro bono attorney, somebody that’s willing to help you and represent you, but they have a lot of people in the [00:06:00] detention facility as well.

So when they come, it’s like they’re just overwhelmed with a whole bunch of people, and you hardly even get to, to really sit down and talk with them. So if you see them, they come visit like, I think, once a month, and then they’ll just take your A number down, and then they’ll just talk to you, and then they’ll just, you know…

If they come back to you, I guess they come back to you. But I haven’t really seen any, anybody, you know, um, they ever got back to that I know of, so. so.

 Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm.

NC (pseudonym): all the people, all the de- detainees that was there, um, those that were fighting their case, you know, Either they have a private, uh, immigration attorney, um, fighting for them, uh, uh, or they’re just doing paperwork themself.

one of the thing I wanna point out is while you’re in detention, you don’t have access to anything, you know. They give you like a tablet, and they give you like some cases on it, but you really don’t have access to look up anything or research anything. You only have, you know, the access to whatever that they [00:07:00] gave you um, According to their tablet. And, And, and it’s just like the tablet, they only have like… Like, for example, when I was there, um- We only had to, we had to share, like, four tablets, and there was a lot of us. And people sh- use it to, like, order canteen. Somebody would, like, use it to watch movie, listen to the radio.

Some people would use it to, um, talk with their family, Mm-hmm … like um, But, um, um, we don’t have enough tablets and, um, we don’t have enough, um, um, batteries on the tablet. And um, just getting a hold of the tablet is, is, um, is pretty hard to get. And, And, like, um…

They give you, like, a little pin for the, the computer, but it’s hard to, um, access it because they don’t really… There’s, like, no… They don’t really teach you how to access anything anyway. So you’re just, like, going from one place to another, and if you have something, you don’t know how to save it. So you would have to ask other people that’s been there for a while, and then you would have to go to, like… like…

You know, all this is, all this is just, like, um, like, um, I learned after, you know? It’s not like, like, like when I was [00:08:00] there-

NC (pseudonym): somebody was, was, you know, you know, showing me. So you have to sign up. You have to go to the library, and when they schedule… ‘Cause there’s, like, it’s overcrowded and there’s so many people. And, and they schedule the library.

There’s, like, one librarian and, and,  you know, you know, we have to share the library. And then if you go there, then you have to try to get it printed or, you know, stuff like that. And then, and then when you do that stuff, you have to be able to sign up. You gotta have it, and if the librarian’s not there, then you just have to wait until another time.

So everything is just, um, hard. It’s not like, um, like if you remember something, then you can do something. And it’s, like, uh, even pencils and paper, if you don’t have, like, money to buy it on your canteen, then you would just have to ask somebody for it because everything… ‘ Cause once you get there, they don’t give you any property, you know?

So sometimes, um, if you talk to the, the, uh, detaining officers, if they let you take some of your, um, like hygiene items. Like if you come from prison, you take some of your hygiene items, they’ll allow you to bring it with you. [00:09:00] But other than that, it’s like you really don’t have access to anything. ‘ Cause once you get there, you have to slip out of your clothes, and you gotta wear, you know, prison clothes and can’t have any, um, any personal belongings on you.

So you’re just, like, going from one… It’s like one, one prison to another prison.

You just, you know, try to just be calm and, um, you know, try to just, you know, stay, don’t get into trouble, uh, you know, await for your, um, immigration hearing. um, And the first time I was there, um, I waited for my immigration hearing and, um, um, they didn’t even, um, um, get my paperwork because something happened, and I had to call, call, and had to write a bunch of letters and paper and that’s how… That’s why I didn’t, like, go to, um, um, my immigration hearing, like, like, within, like, a couple of weeks when I got there.

I had to wait, like, a whole month, you know, before I got scheduled for one. So, ’cause they, they lost my paperwork. I don’t know if they, they d- lost it or sent it because I was writing to the, the, ICE agent that, um, um, is in charge of my case, and they said they [00:10:00] don’t have any paperwork on me, so they can’t…

You know, You know, I was writing to the courts and I was, you know, dialing the phone number to the courts to see if they, um, um, uh, scheduled me for m- an immigration hearing. So it was, it it was, part of the process of sending the paperwork from the ICE place to the, uh, courts so they can schedule it, and they didn’t, they didn’t, they didn’t do it.

So I had to wait. I had to stay, like, an extended like, period of time, much longer than I should have um, I was able to finish… I mean, they were able to schedule me and then, um, during that time, you know, I saw attorneys and they were just telling me, ” Oh, nothing’s gonna happen to you. Um, the country’s not gonna accept you.

Um, just go and, you know, you can fight it if you want, but you’re probably gonna lose. So you’re gonna be here, like, two, three, four, five years fighting it in, in detention. And then if you just, you know, s- agree to it, like, yes, yes, yes, and then, then, after you sign all the paperwork, you just, you know, you’ll wait about, like, a month, and, and then you’ll just be out of here.”

So that was just the, like, like, you know, Basically, like a protocol.

Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:11:00] NC was eventually put on an Omni Air International plane. Many first learned about Omni’s large contract with ICE in 2018 when it helped execute the then largest deportation flight of Southeast Asian refugees in the United States history.

Since 2025, Omni’s work for ICE has quadrupled. As journalist Gillian Brockell has ex– as journalist Gillian Brockell explained, Omni has been the only large jet airline flying shackled passengers on long-haul ICE flights to Africa and Asia.

A former ICE official told NBC last year that each ICE flight costs taxpayers about $25,000 per hour. NC was deported last November.

NC (pseudonym): Well, like like when I came to Laos, I didn’t have anybody. Um, I didn’t know nobody, not a single relative or friend over here. But, um, um, uh, when I went to the detention [00:12:00] facility, I met a guy and we became friends, and he kinda like, like, he had relatives here in Laos.

So he told me that, um, um, you know, “Hey, if, um, um, if you don’t have anybody, you know, you know, I’ll tell my, um, my family to, to come and, um, um, sponsor you.” You know, like his, his, distant part of the family. And I say, sh- you know, “Thank you.” You know? um, when I got here, um, it was hard, too, because he had to try to like really, really try to convince them as well.

Um, it wasn’t like something that they would want to, you know, just do, you know? you know? So, um, it was very, very hard to get them to trust me. So, So, uh, uh, when they came and see me and they talk with me, and then they say okay, they’ll, they, they’ll decided to sponsor me. So with that, uh, I had a, you know, a little bit of relief because um, when you get here, it’s kinda like like if you don’t have a sponsor, uh, you don’t know how you gonna manage. You don’t know how you gonna… You don’t even, they won’t even let you out of the camp. So it’s like you’re just going from one detention facility to another detention [00:13:00] facility, but the only difference is at the campground here is much better because you’re not…

You know, You know, you wear your, your clothes and you’re fr- you, you roam free, and then, um, you sleep in a place where, um, you know, you have mattresses. You sleep in a place and, um, they do, they give you like, uh, uh, three meals a day, too. So, but then the thing is that you’re s- you’re stuck in the camp if nobody comes to get you, and I don’t know, I don’t know about the people that’s been there.

They can be there, They’ll stay there for, like, like, two, three months, and if they don’t have no sponsor, I don’t know what happens after that, ’cause I didn’t stay that long to, to see what happened to the people that, that don’t have a sponsor to come get them. You know? So it’s kinda scary, too, if you don’t have a sponsor to come get you, ‘ cause you don’t know where you’re gonna end up

 Niketa Kumar: Hmm.

NC (pseudonym): But once I got a sponsor and, and,  you know, you know, I came out, the thing is that the, it’s hard because once they, they get you out, it’s like, you know, you start to realize that, you know, they’re not your family, and then they want you to, you know, keep paying them and all this other stuff. And then, and then you have to like, you know, you don’t wanna like get into anything that’s not good [00:14:00] with them, you know?

 you know?

you know. Mm-hmm. So then you try to go and find a place. So you kinda like just move out, you know, because you only there, you only allow, you know, they, you know, like, um, what’s the correct way? It’s like you can stay with them, like, like, but you only stay with them like temporary. Yeah.

So then you gotta go find your own place. but the, but the messed up thing is that if you don’t pay them, they don’t really help you to go find a place of your own. So that’s when, um, um, I was talking to some of my friends in America, and I was asking like, “Man, it’s kinda messed up ’cause we don’t have any programs here.

Like this country doesn’t have any programs that will, will, will help you transition, you know, into –

 Niketa Kumar: Hmm …

NC (pseudonym): you know, the way of life in, in Laos.” And basically, I, I, I had to just try to learn everything the best way I can, talk to people, be as cordial as I can, and, uh, uh, and respectful as I can, and, uh, talk and ask.

And, but I don’t know Laos, so I don’t talk to any of the Laos people. But fortunately there are some Hmong people here, so then I talk to some other Hmong people here, and

I was fortunate to meet some people who was, who was willing to help me.

Um, so I made some [00:15:00] friends. And although I don’t know the Laos language, you know, sometimes I ask them to go help me translate, then they would, um, if they, you know, have time. But it’s, it’s, it’s hard, like for a time, for a time in the beginning I was just like just staying out. Sometimes I stayed out all night.

Sometimes if I find a place to sleep, I would, you know, s- you know, sleep at a guest house. Um, but then like it would drain my funds really, really fast because I had to, you know, pay like per night. And then some nights I’d just stay up all night. like, um, you know, like, it’s sad because for the first time like, um, felt, I felt, felt homeless, you know? you know?

That’s, that’s the, that’s the correct term, I guess. I was just homeless, you know, just roaming the streets. And then I was thinking to myself like, “What?” I don’t know how to go rent an apartment or a place here because, um, I don’t have the connections. So you don’t know how to talk to people, and you don’t know who to talk to and ask.

And, and a lot of times they won’t rent it to you unless they know that you can, you know, pay them. So, So, you know, you know, you have to, um, have [00:16:00] somebody talk to them. So when I have my friend and she went to talk to them and, um, find out that, um, um, the room was open, and I was able to, you know, rent it. then, then I started, um, um, talking to my grandma back in, um, the US, and then my grandma then found a, a distant cousin of ours.

um, kind of I kind of reached out to them, they don’t live where I live. They live like really, really far up north. So I really talked to them, and then they started pointing directions like, “Oh yeah, you know, you know, we do have some distant cousins here in this, in this village. If you have time, you go visit them.”

So that’s what I do. I, I would, you know, if I could and I have the funds, I would go visit them because they’re not gonna come visit me. You know what I mean?

 Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm

NC (pseudonym): so yeah, I have to go visit them and show them that, “Hey, you know, this is me. Um, I’m here,” and, you know, um- basically like that, but, um, still like like transitioning is still hard because, you know, have to learn the language, you know, practice it, um, every single day and then learn the customs and, and learn how not to get in trouble and stay out of trouble.

Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:17:00] It’s time to come back to Pam, who you heard from in the first episode of My Family. Pam also grew up in California and was incarcerated for 16 years. When Pam first learned that she could be deported after serving her time, she said her parents were shocked. They told her, “There’s nobody over there who can support you, take care of you.

You’ve been here in America all your life. Why does ICE want to send you over there since you already did your time?” She spent a lot of time in the prison law library trying to understand her options to come back home to her parents and her children. Once she paroled, like NC, like NC, ICE came and took her directly to a detention center.

Here’s Pam. Here’s Pam

Pam (pseudonym): It’s pretty much worse than, um, in prison, because if in prison you could walk, you could program, you could [00:18:00] do other stuff.

But in the ICE ICE detainer, you get a yard, hour a day. It’s like you, you’re locked up in prison for, you know, when you get… Getting locked up again. You go, you go into that, the hole. You know, where us prison, we call it the hole, or jail is another way of, you you know, know, expressing it. in 24 hours, you only get a hour of yard time, and it was hard to be being in a dorm with all these people, over 100 people in the dorm.

It was hard. It was hard. But it’s like you’re against the world, and I never felt like that before.

I never felt like I’m against the world before. I have to fight for my life. So that was the first time. Even though I did my prison time, I didn’t feel like I have to fight my life, because I know what I did wrong. But that’s the first time I ever feel like I have to fight for my life just to be alive and [00:19:00] free, either with my family or without my family. So I’m going to another country that I, I never known since I was two years old. I left Cambodia when I was two, and now I’m almost 50. that’s a big old gap, what I’m going to a whole new world. When I first, from ICE detainer, I was nervous, and then I thought they’re gonna take me.

I thought they gonna not deport me at all. I thought they gonna move me to another ICE detainer. And I heard about another ICE detainer is worse, like Texas is worse. But also, even the officer in the detainer won’t even treat you, they don’t treat you like human. your personal property, your family send pictures, they copy your photo and they throw your original one away.

They say, “Oh, you got the copy.” What you mean? it’s not like [00:20:00] person you can have your copy, but they would throw your original. They won’t even save it for you. And then when you’re about to get deported, you have to make sure, you have to, like, be on them about, “Hey, I don’t have no clothes.

Can my family send money? I mean, send boxes for me so I can take my clothes?” Because I have my rights that I can ask for 40-pound box, before I leave. And it took them a long time to process your paper to get, to let your family send stuff like that. And about time you, that you got it, they’re going through every little detail, and then, like, some of your stuff is missing or damaged.

Like, hey, why my, my, stuff is damaged? My son send me a watch, it almost got damaged. Good thing that he, he wrap it with a bunch of clothes, they don’t care about your property. They don’t. They really don’t. So you have to ask them, what can you ha- can, what can your family send you? And sometimes they tell you, “Hey, I can’t get you a box,” they [00:21:00] tell you you’re about to leave, you And sometimes it’s not even true. You end up leaving the next day. So- It’s a lot of, it’s a lot of stuff I was s- I was s- going through it. I never go through… I had never felt like I’m going through a war zone with them. They just not specific with everything. They, they really treat you like you’re not… You never been in United States.

They really treat you like a great straight out prisoner. Even the prison don’t treat you like that. So it’s, it’s hard. It’s hard, tough, and, uh, hopefully, you know, the only thing that keep me going is strong bond with your family. Family, friend, loved ones, like, Any group that help with the deportation, what you have to go through, you know? So that’s the only way that you feel like you don’t have to battle with nothing. You ha- I nev- I never felt like I’m- Dead to the world. it was hard. It was hard. For a whole year sitting in detainer, it was hard.

Medical [00:22:00] was bad.

my brother and sister never seen me cry before on the phone and they’re like, ” If they not gonna accept you, if they said, ‘ Okay, do you wanna appeal?’

we want you to be happy. We want you to be happy. We want you to… The sound, we hear you, you sound like tired, you’re drained, and I think you’re really going through it right now. You’re really going through it, and we just want you to be happy. If you get deported, well, well, now we still love you. We still love you no matter what.”

I was like, “I know,” but I was expect to go home. My son bought a car for me. He bought a car. He bought a car. He’s like, “Mama, you’re not, you’re not getting deported. I got you a Honda Civic already. I got you a car. I got a place for you.” You know how, how, that affect me when your family member bought you stuff, be thinking that you coming home?

It was, it was sad. it hit me hard towards the point that I’m never gonna go home ever again. I’m never gonna step in America [00:23:00] again. That was my part of my experience going through ICE detainer. But when my… when about time when I’m about to leave, I was a little bit excited, a little bit scared because I don’t know what  going- gonna happen to me. I don’t know how they’re gonna escort me. Uh, you know, I heard so many bad things how they escort people and how the ICE officer don’t care about you.

A lot of bad things. But I come to find out I was really lucky. I was really lucky. I got three wonderful ICE officer. They helped me. They said, ” Hey, ma’am,” because I got my 40-pound box of clothes. They say, “Ma’am, I need you to tell me what’s really important for you to carry on a plane, and what’s not that important, it’s okay if you lose it because you can go…

We end up, uh, riding two flight. We’re gonna make a stop, so we don’t want nothing to be missing that is very important [00:24:00] to you.” So I got my paperwork in my backpack, and something that’s, you know, so dear to me is my kids’ pictures and letters, and other things. I, my clothes, for real, for real, I only have… I make sure I have one extra pair of clothes in my backpack, too.

And the rest of the stuff I was like, “Okay, as long as I got one pair of clothes, I’m fine.” So- The rest, and you know, you know, they was taking time. They were waiting for our pack or I pack my luggage how, the way I want it. they say, “Go ahead, finish packing your luggage. Put your watch on. Put, this, that on because, you know, as long as…

Then you know, you go through a me- metal detector, I need you to take it off. They say, “We’re not gonna cuff you because you’re gonna fly with us. You’re the only one to fly with us, so make sure you have your socks on, your tennis shoes on. Go ahead, put your shoelace.”

They was like, “Whatever make you comfortable, go ahead. But we’re gonna tell you this, if you cause a scene at the airport, we’re [00:25:00] gonna show you. That’s it. That’s all we’re asking. If you give us a smooth ride, we give you a smooth ride. If you get hungry, you get thirsty, let us know. That’s all we can afford for you.

And if you get sick, we could get you meds. We could take you and get meds, but besides that, like anything you wanna buy or you wanna get, you have… It come out your pocket.” they pretty much make it clear for me, if you try to run, you know we’re gonna catch and slam you down.

So I look at it as where, where, where I’m gonna go? Where am I gonna go? I’m on a whole different flight. Haven’t seen the world for 16 years- So I was like, “Oh, whatever.” I was excited, when I first stepped outside, ICE came to pick me up. I’m not gonna lie, ICE came pick me up a day before I parole. a day before I parole. And then when I got shipped and deported, I was from Washington, Seattle, [00:26:00] and I fly a good… I don’t know how long I fly. I sleep throughout the whole flight. Uh, they only wake me up for my meals. I ate my meal. I get three serving on a plane. Every, you know, it’s not just peanut butter sandwich, I, I get to eat what the commercial people eat.

Uh, Uh, they always ask me what I want, roast chicken or something, rice and chicken. I can’t remember, but the food was good. The food was good. The food was better than prison. And it’s way better than, way better than, ICE detainer. I only woke, I only wake up to eat and use the bathroom, and I barely use the bathroom.

Michelle MiJung Kim: That was three years ago during the Biden administration. Since then, Congress and the Trump administration have supercharged ICE with a two hundred billion dollar budget. Pam reminded us many times [00:27:00] that her story is just one experience, that she’s one of the lucky ones. She knows people who have been shackled the entire flight, blocked from using the bathroom.

News reports have shared how people have been forced to soil their seats because they can’t get up. Others have been held in straitjacket-like devices or endured verbal and physical abuse from agents, from agents. Flights can last multiple days, stopping in four, five, or even seven countries.

When Pam was deported, the only thing she knew about Southeast Asia was a f– was a fruit shr– When Pam was deported, the only thing she knew about Southeast Asia was a fruit shr– was a fruit she remember– Uh. When Pam was deported, the only thing she knew about Southeast Asia was a fruit she remembered liking as a small child.

Since then, Pam has slowly rebuilt her life. She… Since then, sh… Since being deported, Pam has slowly rebuilt her life. She has a job and an apartment. We asked Pam about her home in Cambodia now and how she keeps in touch with her big family back in California.

Pam (pseudonym): Like, a little studio with a little sink, but you have to buy your own furniture. And it just a room. It’s just, like, like, almost like a cell, [00:28:00] but you got windows you can open anytime.

You got doors you could go in and out, and it only cost me $50 a month. So that helps. And my food, oh, you know, you know, in a street vendor, if you go buy a street vendor, a bowl of rice, 1,000 riel. 1,000 riel 25 cent, you get a bowl of rice. the vegetable, I only spend, like, I, I mean, I, I mean, I fill up my whole refrigerator with vegetables and it cost me $20, but it last me for two weeks.

You know? not expensive, but if you don’t have no income from your family, it is expensive. But if you have income from your family, support from the state, all the stuff like that, it’s not that expensive. Because American money and the prices here, my paycheck, I only get 500 a month.

But my 500, I get to save 100 a month because I don’t really [00:29:00] need nothing. All I need is food, some clothes, and pay my bills. That’s it. Pay my phone bills, pay my electricity bill, my water bill, and my rent. So… I, And I, I get to save $100 a month. So for that, I say I see is the state, I work for 16 hours and I can’t even save money.

Mm-hmm. But here, I work for from what? 7 to 5, 10 hours. About 10 hours. But I can save my money. So, and it, I’m not gonna lie, when I was over there at the state, I didn’t get no sleep. I didn’t really get no sleep. I usually get two hours sleep. So I came to Cambodia and I sleep, I never sleep this much in my life.

So I feel like, yeah, I gained some weight. I’m not gonna lie. I’m gonna g- I gain, I gained a few weights. But, but I’m okay. I’m okay. Because why? I got a good family, helps me. Mm-hmm. And my mom, she going through [00:30:00] her own little struggle, but she said… This is the thing about my mom. She would never come to step foot in Cambodia again because she lost, she still trigger from, she lost three daughters in Cambodia during that war.

So she said she love me, she care about me, she wish I was in United States, but as much as she love me, she would never willing to step back into Cambodia. So that hurts in a way, but I also I have to understand what she go through as a mother losing her own child, three of her child before I was b- even born.

I have to understand how she go, what she go through.

The only thing that’s different is the time. I told my family, call me at 3:00 o’clock in the morning because I’ll be up getting ready for work, this and that.

I can still put you… You know, I can still talk to you while I’m doing stuff [00:31:00] So that’s what me, my family have a deal. from between 3:00 in the morning to 7:00 in the morning that I could talk to them before my class start, before I start working or whatever. And sometime, you know, when I first got here, I got my phone you know, uh, from Washington because they the one that has people fly over here, people from the group, they fly over here because my son send a phone with them to give it to me.

I still don’t know how the mailing process. I still working on that, how people send stuff from United States to Cambodia. I still don’t know that. I finally know how my family send money to me once in a while. Before, they didn’t have Western Union, they only have MoneyGram. So now they finally have Western Union for us.

two months ago they just finally opened a Western Union, and I don’t know how that works. I don’t know if it works really good or not. I was scared to [00:32:00] try My family try and make everything a negative turn into a positive. You know, try to keep me company and keep me, like, we just wanna s- we just wanna see you free, you happy. they hook me up with, on the Facebook.

They said, ” You know, whenever you got time, wherever you go to do new places, I want you to take video. We wanna see where you at.”

Michelle MiJung Kim: Pam told us that she’s learned to stay busy to take care of her mental health. When she first arrived in Cambodia, she thought to herself, “I need to start crocheting and get some yarn.” Crocheting helps her mental health and to stay strong. Before we continue, I invite you to take a deep breath with me Today, more and more people are sharing their outrage at the inhumane, at the inhumane and cruel conditions of ICE detention.

But this brutality didn’t just start this year. But [00:33:00] this brutality didn’t just start this year. People have been, people have been enduring and pushing for change in the community for a long time. People have been enduring and pushing for change in the community for a long… People have been enduring and pushing for change in the community for a long time.

To help share how, we spoke with Tony, who was first detained by ICE nearly 27 years ago in Los Angeles. He’s still fight, he’s still fighting to keep his family to– He’s still fighting to keep his family together

Tony (pseudonym): Um, my first time I, you know, went to a immigration detention center was back in October of 1999. Went there, you know, you know, for doing a county lid in Los Angeles, California. You know, we call it a county lid because it’s, you know, we took a plea bargain for one year of county time. And I did, like, eight month and 20 day.

From there like, before I got released, ICE came and interviewed me, told me that I got immigration hold, and they will, uh, you know, come and pick me up or detain me and, you know, take me to the processing and all kind, you know. Because, um, I got order to removal. So when I got to ICE in October of ’99, two weeks later I went to court you know, we just [00:34:00] got a court hearing.

There’s no lawyer, no nothing to represent you at all. You just in there solo bolo with the judge, and they ask you, you know, you know, um, how you plea or do you wanna fight your case, or you know, to sign the paperwork for final removal to get, you know, deported back to whatever country we from.

you know, that time it was my first experience going to ICE detention center, so first thing in my head is, like, “No, I’m not going back to my country without a fight.” So, you know, I called my family. They got me a lawyer, and I fought it for a good six month. That’s when, you know, the court make the final decision that I still getting deported.

And it was tough, you know, for my family to come up with the lawyer fee money and stuff, because during that time when I was, uh, incarcerated at, um, at the ICE detention center, there’s no pro bono lawyer, no orientation, any, i- any uh, uh, support group to help us at all. We just in there like a sitting duck, and everybody was going [00:35:00] through h- like, you know.

The feeling of that is more harder than, you know, being locked up in a, in a jail cell or, uh, or doing, you know, doing life, because there’s no release date, and they just like, they drain you all of all your hope and everything. And then, you know. And throughout the whole time, you know, people At the detention center, they went from a normal person to, you know, people go there. At the detention center, they went from a normal to, need mental health issue.

That’s how stressful it is. you know, from there, you know, I stayed there for a good 11 month until people start, like, you know, filing habeas corpus, and they slowly granted us, each one of us, a habeas corpus to go home

So, you know, you know, those are the worst experience I have ever had, and my family was like, you know, keep on asking me, you know, you know, “What’s the next step? What’s the w- what should they do?” I tell them, you know, you know, “Just save your money.” You know, since we lost the case already, “Save your money, you know, just in case I get deported, uh, you know, I have something to start a new life with back in Vietnam even though I don’t have no family and I don’t even have no family over [00:36:00] there, and I don’t even know nothing about Vietnam because I left the country when I was 10 years old.”

it was just like, you know Hard for me to, you know, you know, be far away from my my f- my brother, my sister, and my dad, ’cause, you know, I grew up with a single parent. My mom passed away when I was five years old. My dad raised all four of them, my si- you know, you know, me and my sibling all by himself. So it just emotion and everything washed in, it’s just like, you know, heartbreaking.

So every time, you know, when my dad come to visit me, he always break down and cry because he just like, you know, like, you know, feel sad that his oldest son is gonna get shipped back to his country. that’s my experience from being in an ICE detention center

After I got out, it’s like, you know, they make… They put me on ICE supervision. I started out with, you know, go and check, go check in once a month, from once a month to every three month.

But the feeling of going there to check in is like, you sitting there, each time you go check in, you sitting there, it’s like, you know, you got like a weird [00:37:00] feeling, like a butterfly in your stomach, makes you stress, oh, it’s like, “Oh, are they gonna detain me and ship me back?” And all kind of stuff washing in.

It’s like, it’s just like the mind game they’re playing with you when you’re on supervision. Even though, you know, back in the day, you know, my country, they still don’t accept people to go back or, you know, or anything. But it’s just a feeling that’s like, hey, you know, the law could change. Anything could happen, and it just like, like, you know, slowly break you down inside and outside.

‘

Tony (pseudonym): once you’re in ICE detention center, they don’t care you have any health issue at all.

Whatever medication they give you is not even, you know, What we call it is like, you know, genetic like, you know, medication, the dose or whatever treatment is not even there. uh, , you have to sign up on um, like a doctor waiting list for you to go see a doctor or s- to go get a checkup.

Because the only way that you g- you get any, um, you know, medical attention is when you drop, when you drop right there on the spot in front of them. [00:38:00] That’s the fastest way for them to, you know, show you me- medical attention. Other than that, we just like, you know, animal locked in a cage, you know. That’s why a lot of people, like, you know, you know, they go on there, they have health issues and stuff, and some, you know, end up, you know, being sick and, you know, die or,  you know, or their, you know, health condition get worse because we don’t have the fair treatment  like, you know, to help us at all.

I have to fight for my, you know, my life every single day because, you know, you know, I got diagnostic with a heart failure back in June of 2018, a day after my son was born. And I went to the emergency room three, uh, three different time. The first time they didn’t detect that I have a health issue or anything at all.

They just, you know, prescribed me some medication. ‘Cause I went there, I told them I have, uh, I got food poison. And, uh, you know, all they concentrates on are the food poison. But I told them I have this you know, like shortness of breath, my legs all, you know, swollen [00:39:00] up. I could not walk more than, you know, 20 step and stuff without, you know, have to take a break.

But I guess the, whatever, you know, the nurse and the doctor, they didn’t d- you know, catch that symptom at all, so… so… they just send me home, prescribed me some medication. And then the second time I went back, same thing. Just give me more medication. Until the third time I went in, I I got, I didn’t even get admitted.

I was still in the gurney waiting for them to do all the testing. Less than 30 minutes later, they came back and told me that I was diagnosed sick with a heart failure, and they have to drain out all the liquor from my body because my body was puffed up like a puffer fish. I was, uh, hospital life for two months fighting for my life because my, um, my heartbeat function, faction, function or faction went down to 12%.

So I have to, you know, breathe, you know, inhale, exhale, do a breathing machine like, you know, for at least a [00:40:00] month for me to get, you know, my strength back and everything.

After I got discharged from the hospital, they don’t wanna be uh, like, liability for me to drive like an hour like and 20 minutes just to go check in. So they want me to do like, like, you know, call them every six months to check in, I’ve been doing that for the past three years already.

But each time I call them to check in, my heart, you know, it just like stop beeping. Like, you know, my heartbeat just stop just to wait for them to say, “Okay, call me back this, this and that date.” You know, and then ever since, you know, Trump became the president, he make everything more worse. And each time, you know, you know, I call just like, like, you know, I get more worry and scared and paranoid

Because it will be hard and everything ’cause you don’t even know, we don’t even know nothing about that country anymore because we get so adapted to the, you know, the environment over here in the United State.

And some of us, you know, you know, might get like, you know, emotional [00:41:00] breakdown and everything when, when, when that day come and, you know, ’cause there’s so many uh, thing going through our head. all we have to do is just, you know, be, be sharp, strong-minded, and and, you know, just have faith And to our family, you know, we just have to pray for the best, and hopefully, you know, you know, the, you know, hopefully down the, down the road, you know, new law change and, you know, the bars that, you know, they deport us back, we could come back, you know, in future, maybe 5 or 10 years down.

You never know. you know, we just have to pray for the best and stick together. Don’t- Don’t give up all hopes and, you know, fight for your freedom

I think what have changed is that, you know, right now you know, people are fighting back and s- you know, ’cause they lost a lot. You know, we lost like, you know, loved one, family members, you know. Um, you know. Um, some lost their parents due to, you know, you know, ICE. And I’m happy, you know, all this you know, all the support group are, you [00:42:00] know, you know, coming out to support the, you know, their own people.

Even though, you know, is they’re not a- you know, you know, like from Southeast Asia, but, you know, we all human being. We have to, you know, stick together and treat each other equally and fairly. Because, you know, when you in ICE detention center, they treat you like animal. They don’t care, you know? Sometime when we got feed, you know, you know, in the middle…

Like outside section was fully cooked, but the middle section was still raw, and then we complained. It’s “Hey, you know, that’s all you have. You eat, either you eat it or you starve.” That’s it. And I’m happy, you know, you know, a lot of have changed, and for us you know, to g- see the better future we all, every, each one of us and our community have to stick together and help each other, you know, as one and be u- you know, united and fight against, you know, whatever is wrong.

Michelle MiJung Kim: According to the latest analysis by the University of Southern California Equity Research Institute, ICE arrests of Asian [00:43:00] and Pacific Islander Californians increased by over 1,000% between 2024 and 2025. A link to this data is included in our show notes. When we talked to Tony, he emphasized the need for solidarity within and across communities as we grapple with immeasurable toll on families, neighborhoods, businesses, schools, and on every thread in the fabric of what makes our lives.

Before we end this episode, I wanna bring in Elijah Chhum, who leads New Light Wellness, one of the community groups Tony mentioned. Who leads New Light Wellness, one of the community groups Tony mentioned. New Light Wellness works closely with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and other California groups to serve Southeast Asian communities impacted by deportation.

Here’s Elijah.

Elijah Chhum: in 2019, that is when Trump 1.0, um, the administration was really targeting our Cambodian families, um, and targeting them for detention and detainment and deportation, and that is when I joined the [00:44:00] movement.

And I really have to thank the leaders of Asian Prisoner Support Committee, the lawyers of Asian Law Caucus, the faith healers and interfaith healers of Interfaith Movement for Human Integrity, and of course, the wives and mothers and children of the directly impacted folks, um, that came to CERI. And we all coalesced in this moment, um, in February and March, and particularly on March 6th of 2019 when we all came to CERI, which was this old Victorian house in East Oakland, um, by Clinton Park, and we all met in the living room ’cause it was, it was a, uh, community center that was basically in a three-bedroom apartment, um, on the second floor of a Victorian house in East Oakland.

And so 60 of us gathered together all in a circle, um, on the living room floor of CERI, and we were [00:45:00] doing political education. We were listening to elders talk about genocide and talk about resettlement, and then now fearing the worst, that, that this government, you know, this… in America, that they could also endure family separation.

Um, and so that was the moment that changed our lives and changed my life, and that began the seed of New Light Wellness, but at that moment, we were just, you know, um, healers and, and mental health practitioners, um, that tried to provide wraparound care and mutual aid, um, for families also impacted by deportation, um, and that felt isolated at that time.

New Light Wellness emerged as our own organization in the summer of July 2024. We were first a project that was, um, part of a seed grant from New Breath Foundation around the year 2020. And at that moment, um, after… And this was during the pandemic. A little bit before that, you know, in 2019 as I [00:46:00] mentioned, we were first just starting to give wraparound care for impacted families.

Um, during that time, while we were holding the, uh, four impacted individuals and their families in the Pardon Refugee campaign, um, in those three to four months of actions, our- those four community members were detained, um, and most likely were going to be deported. Um, through our advocacy with all the different organizations, as I mentioned, um, which was, you know, bilingual sessions in political education, art builds, uh, getting resolutions passed at city, city council meetings and board of supervisor meetings, um, signing petitions, creating support letter templates, uh, going to the capital and advocating at- with electeds, um,

um, so all of that built our confidence that we can continue to do this and be intentional about this, and focus on anti-deportation and give wraparound care. And so in some ways we felt like we were filling a gap, um, and a need in the movement. And so our work of New [00:47:00] Light Wellness, um, now going to 2020, this was during the pandemic.

We were all trying to scramble how to still give care to… and a community in, you know, in East and West Oakland, um, that so desperately needed us. Um, so we couldn’t stop work. Um, we had to pivot and find ways to, to, um, actually adopt Zoom and give telehealth and connect folks and get our elders to, um- Learn how to use the app and y- learn how to unmute and mute and all the things that, uh, we’re doing now.

Um, and during this moment, um, as we were learning and honing our skills in, you know, virtual telehealth, you know, spaces, um, we received this seed grant from New Breath Foundation just to start something, some virtual program to, um, to focus on folks that do end up getting deported and living in Cambodia.

And around 2020, um, you know, there’s 18 years has passed since, uh, there was a s- uh, since the [00:48:00] Repatriation Act between Cambodia and the US was signed. So for 18 years, our community members have been deported and lived in Cambodia. Um, of course, there has been organizations, uh, on the ground that support folks, um, living in Cambodia, and there are, there have been movements that have come and gone to try to bring people back, um, and fighting their case or reopening their cases.

Um, and at the same time, um- There was a delegation called kites to Southeast Asia, um, composed of different Southeast Asian orgs based in the US that went and did a listening tour. And when they came back, um, their report back was really that they needed or they saw that mental health and wellness was something that was missing, um, as a resource in Cambodia.

And so with New Breath Foundation, the seed grant was please start some type of mental health or wellness support, uh, for folks in Cambodia. And, you know, mental [00:49:00] health is, is a word and, um, a service that is, is often used by licensed clinicians. Um, and, you know, traditional therapy can only be done, um, within the licensure of that licensed clinician within, you know, the state.

And, and so it was really hard for us to then see who, who could offer, offer this wellness support or healing support, and how do we not use mental health or the term mental health, and how do we… And if, if we’re not using licensed or getting the support of licensed clinicians to hold wellness space, then, then what are we doing?

And, and so we really adopted a peer specialist model, a community health outreach worker model, and now it’s evolving to a wellness coaching model. And, and so what are the kinds of things we can do and offer across the seas that is still accountable and responsible to the folks we’re serving,

though we’re not crossing the lines of what is traditional therapy?

Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:50:00] New Light Wellness has grown so much since 2020. We’ll hear even more about their work after a short break.

We’ll hear even more about their work after a short break. You’ve been listening to music by Joe Sin and the Angkor Wat Band. Joe is an elder in Oakland and a leader in the Khmer community. Let’s hear some more [00:51:00] Welcome back.

That was Joe Sin and the Angkor Wat Band.

In our next episode, Elijah will share more about New Light Wellness’s work in California. For now, I asked him to tell us more about the organization’s new community center in designed specifically for people who have been deported from the US

Elijah Chhum: when we hold spaces with our New Light Wellness support groups, and we hold spaces in person at events and in villas and, and, you know, and, you know, we close the door or shut the gate and, you know, our folks are safe inside, they feel at ease.

They feel like they can show off their tattoos or, you know, eat their burgers and fries or have their kids run around and speak English openly and without judgment. Um, so those, just for those few hours that they’re accepted as who they are. Um, and so I know that in Cambodia there needs to be some kind of narrative change and narrative shift so that the local community can understand what [00:52:00] our impacted community went through, what our 1.5 generation went through.

Because in the eyes of the local community in Cambodia, they believe the US is so just and so fair. And so to be deported, they believe and judge our community members for doing something so egregious, um, that they deserved to be deported. And so it’s, it’s a hard conversation, and it’s a hard conversation that our local community has to either be prepared to have or to avoid or, um…

And then sometimes, um- You know, it could be very risky, um, and it could be very negative to have these conversations, especially at, at a place like a workplace. And we’ve heard s- situations where students Google the, um, you know, a lot of our folks get teaching jobs, and, um, the students are very curious about the teacher, of course, ’cause that’s how youth are.

Um, and now we live in an internet age, and, you know, deportation isn’t this, um, you know, marginalized story any longer. It’s very much in the [00:53:00] open, especially in Trump 2.0. So the youth in Cambodia are, are savvy enough to Google folks’ names or, you know, look people up by their images, and they may even out our, our community members, even in the classroom in front of their, in front of the other students.

So, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of different experiences when it, when it comes to our folks facing society in Cambodia. And, you know, some folks may say just to assimilate, that is the best way. You know, be as Cambodian as possible. Cover up your tattoos. Speak Khmer. Marry a Khmer partner. Have Khmer children.

You know, try to let go of all your tastes. Um, and that can help, and that can and has worked for some, but not for everyone. And the road to acceptance of, you know, their fate or the road to acceptance that they are there, the road to healing and even being held a space for grief, the grief of their identity, a grief of loss of, you know, family [00:54:00] relationships, um, is also part of this.

Um, so it’s not a one-size-fits-all, um, for any community member. I think it’s just offering space for folks to hear many stories, actually, um, and different experiences, and it may not be your experience that you have when you arrive in Cambodia. Um, but to honor that, you know, previously, since 2002, some p- some people did not have any resources, so it’s really honoring those that have really survived and lived in Cambodia, some of them for over 20 years now.

And so in some ways, folks that have been deported more recently, um, gets the benefit from, um, the lived experiences and the traumas of those that, that came before them. And so I think it’s learning and relearning together, um, from all the different experiences and honoring those stories of survival, um, and honoring the leadership of those that came before us.

Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:55:00] [00:56:00] Thank you for joining us for this episode of “My Family,” a project by APEX Express and the Asian Prisoner Support Committee. I invite you to move into the rest of your day by taking a moment to honor the stories of survival and the resilience of those fighting the oppressive systems today. The music in today’s program is by Joe Sin, a Khmer elder in California, and the Angkor Wat Band, and the Angkor Wat Band, and one of our favorite songs by Thao.

We’ll include links to these songs and additional resources at kpfa.org/program/APEX-express and asianprisonersupport.com. We hope you’ll join us for the final episode of “My Family” where we’ll deep dive into what happens when people are [00:57:00] forced to move to a country they’ve never known.

Thank you for listening, and we’ll see you next time on “My Family.” I’m your host, Michelle MiJung Kim, and this podcast is brought to you by APEX Express and the Asian Prisoner Support Committee. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.

Have a great night, and see you next time

The post APEX Express – 9.17.26- My Family Ep 2: What happens in ICE detention? appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Friday is the twenty-fifth anniversary of 9/11. 9/11 marked a turning point in American history when two planes were hijacked by extremists who flew into two buildings at the World Trade Center in New York and another at the Pentagon, and two thousand nine hundred and seventy-seven people were killed. It was the deadliest attack on the US since Pearl Harbor sixty years prior. Following 9/11, the US government implemented multiple pieces of significant legislation around curbing and countering terrorism and enemy combatants. Policies such as the USA Patriot Act and the Special Registration Program targeted and disproportionately affected Arabs, South Asians, and Muslims in America. Tonight on Apex Express, in recognition of the twenty-fifth anniversary, we are hearing from members of the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, ASATA. Several ASATA members will listen to Apex Express episodes about the impact of 9/11 and share their thoughts. You will hear pieces of shows starting all the way back to two thousand two and as recently as this spring.

LINKS

Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, ASATA

Bay Area Solidarity Summer (BASS)

Black Panther Party History

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:34] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. This is Miko Lee, and I’m introducing a show that is recognizing the time that we’re in. And as many of you might know, this Friday is the twenty-fifth anniversary of 9/11. 9/11 marked a turning point in American history when two planes were hijacked by extremists who flew into two buildings at the World Trade Center in New York and another at the Pentagon, and two thousand nine hundred and seventy-seven people were killed. It was the deadliest attack on the US since Pearl Harbor sixty years prior. Following 9/11, the US government implemented multiple pieces of significant legislation around curbing and countering terrorism and enemy combatants. Policies such as the USA Patriot Act and the Special Registration Program targeted and disproportionately affected Arabs, South Asians, and Muslims in America. Tonight on Apex Express, in recognition of the twenty-fifth anniversary, we are hearing from members of the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, ASATA. Several ASATA members will listen to Apex Express episodes about the impact of 9/11 and share their thoughts. You will hear pieces of shows starting all the way back to two thousand two and as recently as this spring. So stay tuned to Apex Express and reflections on the twenty-fifth anniversary of 9/11.

[00:02:06] Arati: Hi everyone. Welcome. Can you please introduce yourselves?

[00:02:09] Hafsa: Hey everyone. My name is Hafsa. I’m here from ASATA. 

[00:02:13] Palvinder: Hi all, Palvinder Kaur a Sikh community organizer here in Sacramento.

[00:02:19] Priya: Hi, I’m Priya. I’m also an organizer with ASATA and a teacher based in Oakland.

[00:02:23] Arati: We’re gonna start listening to our clips now. 

[00:02:25] Speaker 5: I can clearly remember my parents repeating, “Please don’t let it be a Muslim. Please don’t let it be a Muslim,” while watching the news. I didn’t process at age five the type of impact this would have on my family, but as I got older, those words stuck with me as I watched police outside our mosques and soldiers touching down in Muslim countries around the globe.

[00:02:45] George W. Bush: Freedom itself was attacked this morning by a faceless coward. 

[00:02:50] Speaker 7: I got a call after the first tower had been hit. 

[00:02:53] Speaker 8: I was right here. My roommate was like, “Hey, man. Wake up. You should watch this.” 

[00:02:59] Speaker 9: My mom called me at 7:00 in the morning, and whenever my mom calls, I always think, “Oh, God,” you know? “What happened,” right? And my immediate reaction was, Bush has got his war now. 

[00:03:10] George W. Bush: Make no mistake, the United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts.

[00:03:25] Speaker 9: Pretty much as soon as the towers fell and it was determined to be a terrorist act, people were talking about Pearl Harbor, you know, day of infamy and making all those parallels. And of course, there was that immediate fear of backlash against Arab Americans. But what’s the point of revenge? It’s not gonna bring the people who died back. It’s not gonna prevent future attacks, in my opinion. If anything, it might create the conditions for more hatred. 

[00:03:55] Speaker 10: It is heartbreaking when you hear somebody who’s not even a Muslim or Arab got killed in Arizona who just happened to wear this traditional clothes.

[00:04:10] Speaker 9: Within the first week, I started seeing reports on the internet about hate crimes that occurred in San Francisco.

[00:04:15] Speaker 11: Arab American Discrimination more than two hundred incidents of hate crimes. Six of these people died. 

[00:04:30] Speaker 7: My mom actually called me and she was like, “Shave your beard,” you know, like, “Don’t do anything stupid.” My partner actually from Urban Groove, is a Sikh, and he was in Pittsburgh at the time, and he called me up and he said, “I’m scared for us right now.” I can’t even go to the library. I can’t even go to the gym. People are looking at me funny just getting in your car and going outside. You know, at that time we realized the education that really needed to come to a lot of Americans that Muslim or not, these are not people that blew up the World Trade Center. These are not people that hurt other Americans. You know, these are our friends, our coworkers, our family.

[00:05:15] Speaker 12: It took me a while to find my voice and publicly react and respond to the events at the close of 2001. Part of that has to do with the memory of how irrational Americans become during times of war. I didn’t wanna be on any blacklists, be monitored, stand out. 

[00:05:34] Speaker 8: One of the things that I thought was really ironic was the question the media posed to the, the public. You know, how could this happen to us? Well, kind of stop and look at the history of our foreign policy. It’s pretty evident in why something like this would happen. 

[00:05:50] Speaker 9: I didn’t feel like I was being disrespectful, and I didn’t think that I was somehow, like, less American for also criticizing the government. But then again, the appropriate response is that we all just fall in line behind the Bush administration, whatever they do. It doesn’t matter. Civil liberties are trampled. This is the appropriate response. You know, this is the way we show our patriotism.

[00:06:12] Arati: So most of those clips were from Robyn Takayama’s 2002 documentary in which she’s using different community voices to explore her own discovery of what patriotism looks like. It starts with, like, a small cut from the 20th anniversary, and then the rest of that is from these series of immediate reactions and lived experiences from Robyn’s documentary. So reflecting on when this documentary was released, 2002, and where we are now, what still feels resonant? Does anything feel stale or stuck in time, or are there things that you’re still like, “Yeah, that’s really where we’re at now”? 

[00:06:43] Hafsa: I think for me, growing up with the Muslim community in Southern California, I remember 2002 being a very scary time as the people in this audio clip are kind of sharing. And I think now I don’t feel as stranded as an American Muslim in America as I did at that time. And to provide context, I was 11 years old at that time, and I could feel the fear from people older than me and, even my friends as we would go to recess, and we would think we’d get sniped down by someone who’s, like, looking out for us because we’re little Muslim kids. yeah, I think that’s something that I can definitely feel, where I don’t feel stranded. I don’t feel like there are, there is a lack of other communities who’ve been harmed who can also make bridges with us. 

[00:07:34] Arati: Yeah. Thanks, Hafsa. 

[00:07:35] Palvinder: Yeah, similarly, I was, I was a teen as well, probably 11. I grew up Sikh. My dad wore the star, a turban. I remember seeing it on the news. And I didn’t really register for me for about a little bit of time until, like, the first racist comment was made towards my dad or we heard about, the Arizona death. It wasn’t until, you know, Brown communities, Sikh communities, uh, Muslim communities were targeted, anyone who looked Muslim, right, And so for me, I think at the time, it took a while to fully register. But, you know, once it did, it was like, oh, this isn’t about it just being a Muslim. It’s like people are just perceiving anybody. And, as I grew up, I realized, the need for, communities not to say like, “Oh, but we’re not Muslim,” you know? And I think that was like a really strong push from a lot of the Sikh community organizers, reflecting back on it. But of course, you still have folks who are in the community who are just like trying to say, “But we’re not Muslim.” And that’s a, that was a problem. You know, I wanna call out that, that problematic nature, and I think the same thing happens today when we see it around communities who have different immigration statuses. and it’s like, oh, we might be X, Y, Z race, but we’re not. You know, we’re, we’re American, or we were born here, we’re a citizen. And it’s just like, but why are we othering ourselves? So I still see some of those similarities around othering. I struggle with it because I can understand from the perspective of, you know, some of the individuals trying their best, working hard, and wanting to not be targeted, but at the same time, like, it’s not the right thing to do. I think we’re seeing a lot more, collaboration now, I would say, a lot more shifting in the narrative. I know we’ve had a lot of conversations across, the Sikh community over the past two and a half decades around the problem with othering ourselves from other races and other, other identities. And so I, I think that’s one aspect of it, but I still see that same sort of nature, right? Like, um, when an attack happens or when there’s a shooting, it’s constantly like, don’t let it be a interracial identity or immigration identity, right? and, I feel like the media continues to fail us, like the narratives around people of color, immigrants, is just very dehumanizing. and somehow, white folks get humanized in all of the actions that they’re taking. I do feel like there’s a media component to it, and we have to call that out. The one thing that, you know, when one of the individuals had shared that they were like falling in line, I think about just the over-surveillance that’s occurring and the way that social media recordings and just everything going live in public, you know, the need to be vocal, but there is a sort of line, right, that we all know that we shouldn’t cross, and the fear of being seen as un-American.

[00:10:15] Arati: Thank you, Balvinder.

[00:10:16] Priya: I can briefly add on to what was shared. Something you said, Hafsa, really struck me that when you were 11 years old, even going to recess was something that created a culture of fear, and honestly, I still see that in some of my students. When there were threats of ICE in the Bay Area, my classroom was empty. I mean, like, 90% of students didn’t come to school that whole week. That culture of fear still exists, among, like, Black and brown communities, even here in the Bay. but we have made a lot of connections with each other as people of color in our organizing histories. But the culture of fear is still salient.

[00:10:51] Arati: Thanks, Priya. Do you feel like there’s stuff, you know, a lot of these were current day organizers still 25 years later reflecting on their experiences. Are there pieces of the strategy that we still feel like are salient and that we want to bring with us and continue implementing in 2026?

[00:11:06] Hafsa: I think the communities that reach out to each other, that’s something that’s still working out for us now. I remember the Japanese community reached out to our masjid because they had been interned. Like, they were in internment camps, and they knew what it felt like to be othered in America in a very vile way. And I remember learning, oh, wow, like, A) there’s a big Japanese community in Southern California, and B) they are so resilient that they care enough to reach out to us even though they went through all this already, and now they wanna show us or they wanna be there for us in whatever capacity. So I think, like, as we grow and go through these traumatic events, whatever we learn, there’s a resilience that we build when we reach out to other communities. 

[00:11:55] Arati: Yeah, absolutely. All right, we’re gonna move to our next set of clips. this is gonna be a little heavy, but there’s some really incredible stuff in here thinking about the organizing that is birthed of necessity, and a lot of the Sikh coalition’s actions in the immediate aftermath, and specifically Asata’s actions here in the Bay Area.

[00:12:11] Speaker 8: At the end of the day, necessity is the mother of invention. On the day of 9/11 Sikhs in New York, where the Sikh Coalition is based, saw hate crimes occurring the afternoon of 9/11. Three members of our community were literally chased through the streets of Manhattan. The afternoon of 9/11, an elderly man was beaten to the point of having broken bones, and Sikh young children were shot with paintball guns. And so the night of, we issued a press release grieving against attack on the country and calling on a police to protect our community from hate crimes. Our first real action beyond the press release on the night of 9/11 was to create a website where community members could report hate crimes and other forms of discrimination that were occurring to them. And within that first month after 9/11, more than three hundred people logged in and, and reported acts of discrimination. Everything from, from people who had been shot at, one gentleman who was murdered, to beatings, school bullying, employment discrimination alike. And we really used the information there to get the word out to the media and the policymakers that we have a real problem that needs to be addressed immediately.

[00:13:24] So I think, you know, the heart of the activism in that first month was really creating a space for people to report what was happening and then using that information to call for change. We were able to persuade the, the city of New York to create a regulation on school bullying where none existed before, and where school administrators are required to track bullying incidents and keep statistics on them. They have to ma– use all means they possibly can to take non-punitive measures. And that regulation protects one point one million students in the public school system in New York City, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, national origin, religion, and the like. We were just able to get the New York City mayor to sign a bill that raises the bar for when employers can reject a request for religious accommodation in the workplace. Post 9/11, Sikhs have been barred from a number of jobs, including city jobs, because of their turbans. And if you wanna work for the public transit system, you have to brand your turban or if you’re a Muslim, your hijab, with a Metropolitan Transportation Authority logo. And so we were able to get the mayor to sign a bill last week that basically bans most of those practices. And again, it protects literally millions of New Yorkers who work in the city from discrimination based on religion in the workplace. But at the end of the day, it’s again, a regulation that pushes back on the government being able to do whatever it wants and creates a space for anyone to enjoy those protections.

[00:14:50] Speaker 13: So in the Bay Area, ASATA members distributed multilingual know your rights flyers and provided legal support in collaboration with other activist groups, such as the Arab American Anti-Discrimination Committee, the former ADC in San Francisco, the National Lawyers Guild, Council of American-Islamic Relations and the Progressive Bengali Network, and ASATA members provided support by taking down the contact information of the men standing outside the Department of Justice to register so as to notify families in case they were detained or disappeared, and also provided information about free legal resources. 

[00:15:28] Speaker 14: There’s a really moving testimony of a young Muslim girl from Seattle, Washington. Her and her mother were held in detention for, I think, nine months- Mm … without charges or anything, and her mother actually almost died while they were in detention. It was just such a traumatic experience, and I mean, we really need to let these stories be heard. 

[00:15:46] Speaker 15: I wanted to point something out, that the figures from May 2003 from the INS or BCIS say that the number of people registered as of May 11th, 2003, were 82,581. Number of people detained, and these are their figures, so who knows what the real figures really are, 2,761. Number of people still detained at that time, 158, and the number of people charged with terrorism-related crimes, zero. 

[00:16:19] Speaker 16: Reports indicate that some of those taken into custody were harshly treated. They were handcuffed, shackled, placed in cold cells without adequate clothing or blankets, blankets, forced to sleep standing or on concrete floors, hosed down with cold water, and denied adequate food and water. 

[00:16:40] Speaker 17: And I would like to ask for volunteers because when we monitor, when we stand here and monitor people, there are less detentions, there are less questions, and people get done quickly. Some people are afraid to go alone, and they can take a companion with them. If we want safety and security, we cannot buy it by terrorizing other people. We need to change our thinking. We need to change our ways. As superpowers, we need to start empowering people, not taking them away, not putting them in prisons, not detaining. This country has become so secretive. Secret evidence, secret detentions, secret deportations. Everything is secret except our privacy. So we need to really take our country back.

[00:17:32] Arati: Okay. So that was a little longer and definitely somewhat heavy. but I think it’s really interesting to hear how people were talking about this, especially post 9/11, and how they were talking about the country in general, and then their work in specific. What things stood out to you from how our communities were able to spring into action immediately post 9/11?

[00:17:49] Palvinder: I was a teen, so to me, as I learned all of the immediate action that was taken, it was really incredible and inspiring, so many different areas of it, right? Raising awareness around the detentions, trying to create that website. Working on school policies. Like, there was so much that was happening, and so much that continues to happen. Great to see community springing into action. I also struggled for so long in my early organizing days, being frustrated that these systems were not created for us, these policies were not created for us. And then when you learn so many of the policies were literally created against us- post 9/11, the over-policing, the over-targeting, it was just so challenging, right? Like, we have already so much, so many more challenges that we’re dealing with, and then here we have additional barriers to just kind of living a, a decent life here. But you know, still continue to be inspired by, the way that folks sort of look to heal the community and support. And so I think that, like, one of the things I think about is, is the community within the communities that we were able to create that culture of healing, as much as possible, and then also thinking about the greater change and sort of protections for our community. I struggle with the hate crime stuff, you know, and the data there because, you know, there’s so much around how data is used. Is it used in a beneficial way? Is it even, you know, supporting anything that’s gonna create some real change? and then of course there’s a surveillance question. But again, like I truly feel that folks thought this was coming from a good place. Um, and so I just continue to be mindful around the tactics that we’re using, being mindful of like going fast but also being thoughtful and considerate around how these might impact us in the long run. And I, I hope that we continue to look at that. not just finding sort of immediate solutions that might work for us now, but seeing the long-term impact of them too. 

[00:19:34] Arati: Yeah, totally. Would love to hear folks’ thoughts on this as well, and also I’m curious, I’ve, I’ve now heard a few of you say a couple times just like what it meant to be a child at the time, and yeah, maybe not actually being tapped in in that moment of what organizing and activism was taking place when you were that young. But I’m curious also about kind of hearing about it more, and I’m sure as you grew up but also now as an adult, kind of what, how you feel like that maybe has shaped you. 

[00:20:00] Hafsa: It’s great to hear that there was a collection of bullying and racism happening in schools and that being reported because 100% I’m sure each of those data points represents so many other unreported happenings. For reference, I went to high school in Huntington Beach, California. I did not know the demographics of that area until I left high school, and it helped me understand my experiences there, especially with the teachers who were allowed to be racist. One of the only books in my history teacher’s class was a book about how the Quran is false. He was a white man, Christian white man, and this was a history class. and he was a beloved teacher, beloved. And this is just one of many things that happened and that went unreported because we thought, oh, we are lesser than them. We do have to stick together. This is how they talk to us in front of us and behind our backs. So I remember hanging out exclusively with other Muslim students who also wore hijab because that’s who we were pushed into a corner and you look around and that’s who’s there. And I remember going to the masjid and every time there was someone who didn’t quite look Arab or South Asian or generally Muslim, if it’s like a white person entering the masjid, I’m thinking, “Is that a government operative?” And it was sometimes. Every masjid I knew had at least one person who was hella shady, and they were spying on us, and I wonder where that data lives right now. 

[00:21:30] Arati: Yeah. Absolutely. And that’s hard not to think about in the surveillance state we’re living in now.

[00:21:36] Priya: I was only three when 9/11 happened, but as an organizer now, I am really looking back on how our communities showed up for each other and provided like mutual aid relationship building, and that’s the kind of organizing that I wanna build on now in the Bay Area. So the way that like we showed up and we did know your rights in different languages and we, you know, took people’s names down, like we’re still doing that, and that’s the kind of work that I like want us to keep doing and that I feel really proud to be a part of. We have ICE watch at our school where neighbors walk around our school every single morning for an hour, and they have their whistle ready. So if they see ICE, they know how many times to blow the whistle, and we will, you know, spring into action immediately. But yeah, that kind of like relationship building and my neighbor’s got my back, and I’ve got yours, and we’re like in this together, and, and we live together, but we also like know each other’s names, and we know what it means to keep each other safe because that’s not what the government is doing for us. That’s what stands out to me from post 9/11 organizing, and that’s what I wanna build on. 

[00:22:46] Palvinder: Yeah, echoing that. Community and connection and relationship building and healing. I remember specifically there was, in Fresno, Piara Singh, an elderly Sikh man, got attacked. And, our first thing was like, “Okay, what do we do? Like, how do we heal as a community as well?” Of course, the news media attention is there forefront for, like, a day or two, maybe a week max. but you know, when the individual recovers, or they are gonna be recovering, there’s really not much attention after that. And for us, it was really like, how do we allow our elders to feel safe, right? How do we allow our community to feel safe, that same walk that this individual is taking, you know? And so I think there was components around that about healing, but also wanting to move fast. I think one of my greatest lessons would just be, centering healing and community and relationship building throughout all of it. no matter how fast we wanna go or how quickly we need to go, I just think about the need to center that. And I think more and more trying to find ways when we aren’t springing into action about how we can implement some of that and make sure that that’s also centered to the work that we’re doing.

[00:23:51] Arati: Yeah. I’m curious if anyone has any thoughts on pieces of the specific organizing that was happening that feel maybe relevant. I’m thinking about the non-punitive bullying measures, the non-discrimination activities that had broad benefits, monitoring for safety and security, the description of the detention conditions. I know we’ve touched on some of these already, but I wonder if there’s anything else that’s coming up when people are thinking about strategizing and coalition building in 2026.

[00:24:16] Hafsa: All the information I got as a child was through gossips and rumors from elders who were talking, and they were saying, “Hey, we have CIA operatives in the masjid. Hey, we might be attacked. You gotta watch out.” So I think just that sort of conversation or that kind of community interaction is so important because the media wasn’t telling me how to save my butt. It was telling me that I’m a scary person, and I’m gonna grow up to do something terrible one day. And I couldn’t find an ounce of that within me, so.

[00:24:51] Arati: All right. Thanks everybody. Let’s move to our next clip. speaking of media, perfect transition. this is a reflection around the 10-year anniversary of 9/11, and a lot of the audio in these clips are actually thinking about when the media started talking to us rather than just about us.

[00:25:07] Speaker 19: It’s the first time we actually have media approaching us around the time of the anniversary asking us what have been the effects on our communities. Uh, whereas before it would, you know, sort of be focused very much around the families that were directly affected by 9/11 and occasionally we’d get a call to check in about, oh, you know, are you– is your community facing any backlash? We’ve received a decent number of media requests talking about what the last ten years have been like. What have the various ways that our communities have been affected. And at the same time, uh, you know, I think a lot of the exposés in particular that have been criticizing what law enforcement and government agencies have done in the last ten years, a lot of those have seemed to come out in the last, uh, couple of weeks. Mother Jones did a extensive special on, uh, the FBI and their use of undercover agents and informants across the country. The AP has been doing a series, uh, the Associated Press has been doing a series on the NYPD, their collaboration with the CIA and, and their, uh, mapping of Muslim communities in New York. NPR has been doing stories and, and that it seems that they– there is an interest in the media to sort of be more critical, uh, slightly more critical of law enforcement agencies and, uh, starting to demand some form of transparency and accountability that so far they were just given a free leeway to do whatever they wanted, and everything was justified in the name of protecting, uh, our cities. Uh, but now there’s starting to be some questions are starting to be raised.

[00:26:48] Arati: Yeah, I feel like this kind of feels really specific in terms of what we were just talking about, and it draws us back into that idea. and I’m curious about if we have reflections on how movement work has changed, especially now that we do have to kind of consider how to engage with the current media apparatus and how does responding to what the media is saying about us, trying to work with the media to share out different kinds of messaging, is that something that folks are thinking about?

[00:27:11] Priya: It just reminds me of how like three weeks ago it came out that the federal government was spying on organizing activities in Minnesota among unions, among organizers. Like this is … no surprise this is still happening, but it can be helpful to look back and, and think about how our communities have experienced this before, and how we came together and how we can prevent it. Or just be more aware of the possibility that it will continue to happen.

[00:27:40] Palvinder: I think the common thing that I kinda see in, my perspective of it is, like, in the moment when something happens, it’s constantly the same thing, right? Oh my gosh, let’s go talk to the community, and, like, media wants to paint their narrative of it, right? Questions are very specific. and then there’s, like, a timeframe where the reflection happens, right? 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years later. And it’s like, oh, let’s see the impact on the community. Let’s see how they’re affected. But in the moment, when the opportunity is so prime, like, we don’t really have that. I mean, I think more and more I’ve seen folks, even in, like, media trainings with the community. And so I’ve really appreciated when folks don’t actually answer those questions, and they just shift their response to what they really wanna get across because that’s really what our community wants to share. You know, we don’t wanna just always answer the question and kind of fill the narrative that the media wants in the moment. but really, like, sharing it from our perspective. And so just greater need to write our own histories, document what’s happening. I think we’re so caught up in the moment sometimes that we don’t even do that. And of course, there’s a balance, right, of, action is being taken, what sort of impact those, taking photos or videos of those actions have as well. I just really think that we need to continue to make sure that the stories and the narratives that we want to share even in the moment are shared. and so flipping that script is really great for folks who can do that. I’m not an expert on that. I hope to be one day. But, yeah, just wanna also acknowledge that the reflection piece is, when I feel like the media starts talking to us.

[00:29:14] Hafsa: Yeah, I think, something that I’ve shifted within myself because, just, talking to media and, you know, being able to represent myself and my community, that’s not something that’s within my skillset. Like, that’s not something I definitely work on. But what I do love to work on is increasing representation of people who look like us in other areas. And I think back as 11-year-old American Muslim immigrant growing up in America, what did me and my friends need? And something that we didn’t have access to was really, like, the outdoors and nature, and that is just the number one healing thing, and that’s something that a lot of immigrant communities cannot find when we come to America ’cause we are put in areas that don’t have nature, where it’s redlined districts or places that we can afford. They don’t have access to nature. So something I like to do is try to organize for those communities to get us out in nature and feel safe because when we can feel safe in the world alone, we can feel ourselves in a way that we can’t when we hear media tell us that we are scary or we are worthless or whatever else. It’s a great place to unwrap those lies and really feel ourselves. 

[00:30:22] Arati: That’s a beautiful reflection. I really appreciate you thinking about what you needed as a child, what our communities need, and, what, what it feels like to work with the media, but also to be like, ” That might not be our friend.” So how do we protect ourselves from the media? Thank you for sharing that.

[00:30:37] Palvinder: I’ll also just quickly add on the media piece, and this is like a definitely based off my, my experiences. There are certain folks who have access to media, you know, in the community. There are certain folks and organizations who the media will always go to. And, you know, I understand they’ve built those relationships, they’ve invested those resources, and I would just really encourage, you know, and continue to encourage those folks to really think about the folks who are on the ground doing the work as well, and giving opportunity to those voices as well when they want them. cause of course, not all organizers and activists want those, opportunities. But, I just think that it’s important to share the diversity of voices amongst the community, and while many of those who have access and privilege with media, they are very niche. and yes, they’re eloquent in their speaking, they’re great at sort of getting what message they want across, but we’re also very diverse communities. You know, there are some folks who are gonna pick up the pen and then others who are gonna go to the streets, you know, and organize. There’s others contacting decision-makers. So it just all depends. But, yeah, I would just really encourage our communities to really think about, sharing the mic really.

[00:31:46] Arati: Okay. Thanks so much for sharing that. These are really, really incredible reflections. Um, we’re gonna move to our next set of clips. A lot of this is gonna be audio from a massive Stop Urban Shield demonstration in 2014, which is nested inside of an interview with Zahra Billoo from CAIR or the Council on American Islamic Relations. So we get to hear from Zahra, we get to hear from the Stop Urban Shield work, which was happening right here in the Bay Area, and, um, I’m excited to hear y’all’s thoughts.

[00:32:14] Speaker 20: I think a, a really huge local victory for Bay Area residents to celebrate is all of the organizing that happened to push back Urban Shield. I don’t know if folks are familiar with Urban Shield, but it’s essentially like a massive law enforcement training exercise where they train SWAT teams and sell weapons and, you know, military-grade weaponry for domestic police agencies. And so when you wonder why the local police department in Ferguson has a tank or things of that sort, or why people are dying because police are using military-grade weapons, a lot of that’s happening in this culture of this Urban Shield convention, and so it’s been coming to Alameda County for a couple of years now.

[00:32:54] Speaker 21: On the second day of Urban Shield, community members filled the intersection of 10th and Broadway, just outside of the Marriott where the vendor show was taking place.

[00:33:11] Speaker 23: Can you read the sign that you’re holding? 

[00:33:15] Speaker 22: Don’t shoot. From Ferguson, Gaza to Oakland, our homes are not war zones. 

[00:33:21] Speaker 23: Simi Makhijani. I’m here with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action. We’re out here to stand in solidarity with all those that are targeted by state-sponsored violence, whether at the hands of Oakland, Ferguson, New York Police Department, or the drone attacks on Pakistan, or the struggles against Zionism in Palestine or Hindu supremacy in India. After September 11th here, in terms of surveillance and unwarranted detentions of Muslims and those mistaken as Muslims in the Sikh population, and in other countries from Kashmir to Gujarat to Gaza, you know, the attacks on Muslims. We haven’t always been recognized or as visible as we should be in standing together, walking together in these struggles here, and it’s the primary reason that we’re trying to be here, because it’s really important that non-Black communities of color not be silent on this issue.

[00:34:13] Speaker 21: Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders came out in force, and nearly everyone I spoke with made links between the militarization of police in our communities in the US and the militarism perpetuated by the US throughout Asia. 

[00:34:26] Speaker 24: The increasing brutality of the local police and the paranoia about terrorist attacks stems directly from the attack on the Twin Towers. Of course, giving local police military-grade equipment is older than 9/11, but we’ve seen an upswing in funding from the Department of Homeland Security. So in that way, Urban Shield is one facet of the war on terror. 

[00:34:45] Speaker 20: There was a really great coalition that formed on the ground in the Bay Area, primarily out of Oakland and San Francisco, that said, “Look, you can’t push violent policing in our community, that we’re not going to let you use Oakland as a base for that kind of development and activity.” And so they organized for a couple of months leading up to it, and then around the convention last weekend, there were very large rallies and huge visibility events. They also got a couple of people to move their events from the Oakland Marriott, which is where the convention was happening. And as a result, the, the news or the rumor out right now is that Urban Shield will not be returning to the Bay Area. And even if it does, I always find victories even in the organizing, right? Getting hundreds if not thousands of people out to push back against violent policing, against civil liberties erosion is a very big deal. And so if folks wanna learn more about that campaign, they can simply Google Stop Urban Shield.

[00:35:41] Arati: I just think there’s so many incredible moments in that and, that was a big win in 2014. In thinking, in particular about how the speakers described Urban Shield as an extension of the surveillance state and as an extension of the war on terror, and then about the campaign itself around that event, I’m wondering what lessons the current day movement organizers can take from this.

[00:36:01] Palvinder: I think the biggest thing is probably that it’s not in a vacuum, right? there’s a lot of other movements that are very similar. There’s a lot of other things that are a part of these larger systems, right? specifically, it was mentioned as the war on terror, right? So this is just one part of that, one facet of it, and I think it was really great that there was specific call-out for Ferguson, Gaza, other international movements as well across the globe, and I think that that’s super critical, in the organizing work that we do. As much as we feel like our local communities might be targeted, this is all part of a greater system. It’s not happening in a vacuum, and we have so much to learn from the organizing that’s happening in those areas as well.

[00:36:39] Hafsa: Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. I think something that helped me get through the time post 9/11 was just realizing that this has happened in America before, like many different times, specifically to the African American community. And I remember reading about Malcolm X, reading about Martin Luther King and thinking, “Oh, these are people who can be my role models. I don’t look like them, but I’m pretty sure I feel things that they felt.” And even, like, reading bell hooks or Du Bois, like they didn’t look like me, but we shared a similar struggle, and I hope that in the future someone can look at our community, and maybe they don’t look like us, but they will say, “Hey, these people fought for the same thing I did,” and it was basically against America’s attack on human rights, which has been happening since America was founded.

[00:37:27] Arati: I know for me, one of the reasons it feels great to listen to this clip is because right now it feels like we’re just in a cacophony of oppression, right? Like, every single day there are these new policies, new initiatives, absurd tweets, just so much messaging coming, and so many policies also happening that we’re constantly contesting with. We’re constantly trying to fight against. And, it can feel really hard. It can feel really hopeless. And I guess I’m curious about how we can think about these examples of, like, local work, like Urban Shield or any other work that you’ve engaged in recently, and think about how does, that local, work on the ground help fit into this larger thread or this national moment around liberation

[00:38:07] Hafsa: I also very much appreciate that these communities were able to show up to stop things like Urban Shield, because specifically, like in my experience growing up in the Muslim community, I was just so much in my corner just trying to survive that I wouldn’t even be able to think about this larger picture of what’s happening on the local government le- level that’s going to affect me and my kids or whomever else. So I really appreciate that recognition of solidarity and people showing up and saying, “Hey, I know someone who hurts more than me and I’m gonna go out to the streets and stand up for them and protest for them.” ‘Cause I think that’s something that’s also helped me even when my community has been demonized. It’s always think about someone else who’s been demonized more than you and make that my fight song rather than my own experiences, because that can be a little harder.

[00:38:55] Palvinder: I think the other thing for me is realizing that when folks can’t show up, there’s other avenues too, right? So not everyone has to be in the streets protesting or showing up to these causes. I think about the need to make sure that our organizing is accessible for all people, and that accessibility looks different. I feel like especially when I was in my, like, 20s, I felt like showing up at protests and, at organizing events was the main way. And if you weren’t there, you weren’t down for the cause. And I think for me, I learned very quickly that there were reasons why they actually couldn’t go and show up there, you know, for their own safety. Just the need to be able to have those different actions so organizing can be accessible.

[00:39:33] Hafsa: And I think having CAIR as an organization has been really great. That’s been a constant in my life. It was pretty new when I was younger, and I’m so glad that it’s still up and running and they’re still, like, you know, fighting the good fight. and Balvinder like what you’re talking about, like how not everyone can show up to a protest. I remember my first protest, and I told myself at the time, it’s my last protest. It was with the Sierra Club in Huntington Beach, and it was a silent protest on the Iraq War. And I was one of two hijabis. The other one was my friend. Everyone else was white, and we were supposed to be silent, walking down Huntington Beach. And who was targeted? It was me by other white people, racists. And I’m like, “I’m silent protests. Don’t talk. I don’t know what to do.” And I was, like, 17, 18, and I was like, “I’m never doing this again.” So I’m so glad that organizations like CAIR are there and I can actually organize in the Bay Area with people who look like me rather than being told how to organize by people who don’t understand my struggle, don’t understand my experience, and won’t stand up for me when they see something go wrong.

[00:40:36] Arati: Oh my, oh my- 

[00:40:37] Palvinder: Yeah. Oh, oh my gosh. I would not have shown up to any protest if that was my only experience with a protest. I would’ve been like, “No, these people are all crazy,” and like, “Where’s my community at?” 

[00:40:47] Hafsa: Oh my- No, I switched to anarchism after that. I was like, “No, the Democrats don’t have it figured out. I cannot… Y’all don’t understand me. You want to maybe, but that’s it.”

[00:40:59] Arati: Yeah. I feel like at this point I’m like, if there’s a protest, we need to have a safety training. We need to know what are the people’s risk tolerances. I’m so sorry that happened to you. That is wild. But it’s also… I mean, sadly, it’s not unique. I think a lot of people have a story of being, like, at a protest and then not being protected. So yeah, how are we, how are we really thinking about how we’re protecting ourselves and our community, for sure. 

[00:41:21] Hafsa: Yeah, and it was a good experience because the Sierra Club fights for land, and knowing that they don’t necessarily fight for me gives me information that, hey, I have to do that fight because I’m in environment. I’m a field biologist, so that’s something I keep in mind, I think. I’m one of the few people who can actually understand the struggles of the animals and the humans, and that’s very rare.

[00:41:41] Arati: Do we have any other thoughts on the Bay Area specifically and how we might be positioned in the Bay to support this fight for liberation?

[00:41:48] Hafsa: I moved to the Bay Area because I saw that there was a solidarity there that wasn’t quite there in Southern California where I lived, in Orange County, and I wanted to learn more from that because I didn’t wanna just hang out with people who look like me. I wanted to hang out with people who had all these different kinds of experiences with the American government, with being discriminated against, because The answer is there. It’s between all of us. It’s not within our little silos of community. It’s when we all connect together, and that’s also what brought me to joining ASATA as well.

[00:42:17] Priya: I echo that. I also grew up in SoCal in a really white, wealthy suburb called Manhattan Beach, which sounds not too dissimilar from Huntington Beach. And yeah, the message of solidarity that the Bay Area really espouses is what brings me here. And, the way that we show up for each other in the Bay feels uniquely inspiring. Whether it’s Urban Shield, whether it’s like, oh, there’s a Muslim ban, we’re at SFO within like hours. Oh, we’re gonna, accompany people to their ICE court hearings. Like, I really feel like we just show up in unique ways. And yesterday I did canvassing for ICE Out of Dublin, and it’s, that similar message of like we’re out here, we’re talking to neighbors. And like Balvinder said, there are so many ways that you can show up for each other, but we have a history of doing it. 

[00:43:03] Arati: I love that. This takes me right to the next thing I wanted to talk about, which is, a lot of people organizing now don’t have a living memory of 9/11, right? And so we’re gonna listen to some clips, from Deepa, who’s a community organizer, and Fahd Ahmed, who was the legal and policy director of Desis Rising Up and Moving. And, they both have some kind of reflections around social movements, young organizers, and, yeah, we’re gonna, we’re gonna think a little bit about that as we continue to, like, look forward.

[00:43:29] Speaker 19: Social movements have always been the main vehicle for change whether in the United States or the world abroad. And and the power of social movements is that the democratic potential that you build, the people’s political awareness that you build, the power that you build doesn’t dissipate away just based on an election. Doesn’t dissipate based on the changing of a person in power and that if we really had truly strong social movements that built coalitions, built alliances as were discussed earlier, that those movements retain power through various ups and downs, through various issues. And if those movements are infused with a deeper political understanding, historical awareness, that they can be very powerful in holding government accountable. While all these sorts of acts may happen, blowbacks may happen, backlash may happen, at the end of the day, we– the best– the government is the only place that we can hold accountable through our taxes, through our votes, through our social mobilization.

[00:44:33] Speaker 25: Some of the young folks that are entering or working at nonprofits now, supporting South Asian nonprofits don’t have a living memory of 9/11 and the global war on terror, and they have been politicized in different ways, right, over the last eight years, for example, the pandemic, global wars, etc. And so there are a couple of ways in which I’ve been thinking about how we can support South Asian young people. So for example, how can we share historical analysis and political analysis so that young people understand that they are part of a trajectory of South Asian activism that actually started well before 9/11, before the nineteen sixties, right? And that continues to today. So they don’t feel fragmented. So that’s something that I’ve been sitting with a lot. Another is around pathways into public service and community service and into the nonprofit sector. So how could we support young people in terms of building their skills in having pathways open to them into our nonprofit organizations? And then finally, how do we support them, um, so that they can do this work for the long run? You know, we all struggle with burnout. We all struggle with sustainability. What are some lessons learned that we can pass on? What are some best practices? That’s something that’s been sitting with me quite a bit, and I hope that the coalition will really think about supporting young people’s leadership and finding different avenues and pathways to do that.

[00:46:00] Arati: What do we think about how we can share historical analyses that will help people new to organizing and understanding their role? Or how can we support young people in building skills that kind of help get them into movement work?

[00:46:11] Hafsa: I think reading literature is very, very, very important. When I think about what’s helped me understand myself better, it was things like the Black Panthers, and that’s another reason why I moved to the Bay Area. Like, they’re organizing. They weren’t just there armed guards, like, policing their, policing other people from their community. It was also, like, you know, free lunch programs for the kids. It was a holistic understanding of community and what it meant, what it really meant. Like, hey, we got us and no one else got us. 

[00:46:43] Palvinder: Some of my favorite things has been around BASE, so Bay Area Solidarity Summer gives context to like, young organizers, about the long-standing history of South Asian organizing, and it is so diverse. I remember the first time I saw it, I was, like, amazed. I was just like, “Wow,” “This is really great.” It was so inclusive of different communities, in the larger sort of South Asian stream of organizing, and so it was just really great. I think Anirudha and Mrinalini cover that South Asian timeline, each year at BASE, and it just allows you to see the context that this was pre-9/11. This is, going back to the ’60s, ’70s there’s been so many other movements that have happened, and just all of the different actions that have been taken. And so I think that’s really, really helpful to see it across communities, religious, minority, state, countries, all of that, in the larger, broader South Asian group and then just the need for training and educating and informing young people. I think it’s never too early to start. And then I think just investing in our communities. I have to say, I know for the Punjabi Sikh community, I worked for Jakara Movement, was our first community organizer. We had a part-time staff member, turned full-time staff member prior to me working. And I remember when I would tell people that I’m, like, an organizer, they would be like, “No, no, no, but like, like, what’s your job? Like, what do you actually do?” So it was interesting to see when I would do the work, they would be so appreciative, they’d love it, and they wanted it to happen. But the investment in understanding that this can also be a job and needs to be a job, in doing development work in the community around the organization, I just saw that, we want things to happen, but we don’t wanna put our money there always. And I think that if we want for greater social movements and greater advancements in our communities to happen, we need to be like other communities. We need to have organizations that are established, investing in paid positions. And so many of us do this in our free time, right? And I think that so much of it happens in that. But we can see where folks in social movements have gone further, and that’s because there’s been intentional and critical investments that have sustained them. So great call-out to, I think all of our communities to making sure that we’re investing in this because we can only do so much of it in our free time.

[00:48:50] Priya: I really appreciated the thread of education, and I was a BASE alum, and Aditi gave me a great overview of South Asian organizing. And, like you said, Balvinder, it’s such an in-depth history. and it really has helped inform my current politics and what South Asian organizing can look like today. and I think the other way that I try to educate myself is just, like, be curious, ask questions. Ask my grandparents what their experience during partition was like. Ask my parents what their experience post 9/11 was like, and just, learn from each other and learn those histories also, public education curriculum, especially in Oakland, is getting better and better. Like, all ninth graders have to take ethnic studies. We talk about the Black Panther Party starting in, like, fifth grade in Oakland schools, so I feel like there’s a lot of progress being made.

[00:49:39] Speaker 27: I think that we need to begin to dream again. I think especially among progressives, there is a great despair and a cynicism and even a pessimism as we’re entering a new decade and so much of the apparatus of oppression that we’ve inherited after 9-11 have not, has not been rolled back. The wars persist. And I think it begins with dreaming again enough to inspire the, inspire movement building. And I think that we need a new frame for movement building. I think rights separate us as if, you know, immigrant rights is separate from LGBT rights is separate from Muslim and South Asian rights. I think that we need to ground our movement building in shared moral imperatives. There is a groundswell out there of not only young Sikh and Muslim and South Asian Americans, but really a whole generation of Americans who are really hunger, hungry to emerge from the shadow of 9-11 and think of this, the end of the 9-11 decade as an end to a chapter of history and the beginning of a new chapter.

[00:50:37] Esha: So again, this is kind of us tying back to what we’ve been talking about, which is just how, how do we connect that work and build on top of it, and also keep people engaged and continue to build solidarity. so would love… I know we’ve kinda touched on this as a through line of all of our conversation, but would just love to hear your hopes for the future and, and what you see as a positive, and where we can go from here.

[00:51:01] Palvinder: Esha, I’m a bit critical about this, I’m gonna start with the critical, but I’m hoping to end on a positive here. I think when I hear a lot of this dreaming and need to close this chapter, I struggle because I think there is a lot of healing that still needs to take place and a lot of healing that never took place because we come from communities that sweep things under the rug. When I think about a lot of my experiences, a lot of my parents’ generation’s experiences, they just never talked about it. They had to provide for their family. They had to move on. They had to figure out how do they continue to have space for Punjabi Sikh folks in the Central Valley or in, in Northern California. I know when I went to college and was exposed to folks who came from different socioeconomic backgrounds, things just really changed, and there was a privilege with being able to dream and think about your future without having to think about, “Is my dad gonna be safe?” “Are we gonna have enough food?” Right? Or any of those questions. So Yes, all in for dreaming. I think there’s a need to make sure that we’re healing and we’re uplifting everyone that’s a part of the community as well. and so dreaming means that we’re thinking about the organizing. We’re thinking about what’s coming into our futures and how are we gonna get there, and it means taking everyone with us. I am very hopeful, and I’ve seen in the last two decades of my own organizing and my own community building, the ways that folks are showing up for others who don’t have those same backgrounds. I see the conversations around those who are detained in this current climate right now conversations that my own parents may not have had, right? Just advancements in their own thinking around, a lot of the politics in the past eight to 12 years even, and I see that across the community as well. Not everyone, of course. I don’t know when we’ll get there, but I definitely see greater humanity and just connecting back to folks and seeing those inhumane conditions that people are living through. Still have a lot of work to do around, when we talk about homelessness and substance use and so much other stuff. But I think we’re making ample progress, and it’s because we’re really trying to bring everyone, the generations ahead of us that, never wanted to have these conversations and we never thought we could ever change their perspective. Some of them are slowly moving over. But I am grateful for just organizations and people and spaces and community, who can come together. And I know Aisa was like, “Oh, this has been great.” I feel the exact same way, right? Like, you know, three of us are joining on a call, and I feel like we’re able to come and connect in this space because of that sort of shared linkage around organizing and care and healing. So just really grateful for spaces like this and people who continue to really think critically about the way that we do this work.

[00:53:43] Hafsa: Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Balvinder. I also grew up in, like, a very low-income household in government housing in Southern California, and I think a lot of American Muslim immigrants in the area were also in a similar situation. And, I think about the struggles, the everyday struggles that my parents still have to go through. There’s no, like, healing. There’s no understanding of 9/11 still. They’re still working every single day. And yeah, I can dream of a better life for them, but I’ve kind of been coming to terms now that they’re not gonna experience the freedom that I wish we could all experience in their lifetime. And yeah, like I said, it all comes down to the socioeconomic fight in this country, and really throughout the world, where we can say it’s all these marginalized communities because of what we look like, but it all really comes down to keeping the classes separate and keeping a very high income class continuously growing, and the rest of us are just the soil that they use to extract nutrients from. And there has been a larger struggle of socioeconomic issues throughout history, and that’s also something that’s really helped me understand my own position in the world. Because even though 9/11 did position me as a perpetrator of violence that I’ve never done, I realize that there’s… it, it, it really helps to link myself and my experiences to struggle that have already happened because it makes you not feel alone, and it really helps you feel that solidarity even with people who are not alive still, and that’s really helpful. I, I think about ancestors a lot, and I think of we… A lot of us don’t have access to our actual grandparents or great-grandparents because of partition or whatever else, so I’ve looked to people like Malcolm X and other people like that. And even I’ve read a lot of Tolstoy . Like, even it, it’s not just something that, um, has to happen right now with the people that are alive right now. It’s a long line of human rights movements and the thirst for freedom that we’re all a part of, and that makes me feel a lot more contained as I’m going through the more difficult parts of being part of a marginalized community in America today.

[00:56:05] Arati: We would love to hear your thoughts as well on that last clip.

[00:56:08] Priya: I appreciate the call to dreaming and thinking beyond what exists, and I feel like music and art and all the ways that we, you know, practice joy and experience that in community with each other is part of dreaming and, um, yeah, like creating what we don’t yet see.

[00:56:29] Arati: Absolutely. So that was a clip from Valarie Kaur, who’s an award-winning filmmaker, and we thought it was, her words about dreaming, y’all’s words about the future, hope, solidarity, also pain, and how we heal and how we move together, that’s the note we wanted to end on. So thank you so much for sharing your stories, your strategy, your, hope, your dreams, your experiences of isolation, and your experiences of community, because we’re not gonna get through this without each other, and we look forward to continuing working together and organizing together. And one day we will, we will win, and we’ll all be liberated. Thanks, everyone.

[00:57:09] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Pretti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by Swati Rayasam, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.

The post APEX Express – 9.10.26- Reflections on the 25th Anniversary of 9/11 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Tonight on APEX Express, Host Miko Lee is going Beneath the Surface — with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. Both artists have been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho — stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing. Masaki Fujihata — a pioneer in new media art.And here’s what they have in common: they’ve both shifted with the times… but never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them changed. Listen in to APEX Express

Check out:

BeHere / 1942: A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration at the Oakland Museum from Friday, September 18, 2026—Sunday, December 27, 2026

Masaki Fujihata website

Choligarchy at Berkeley Rep, September 15-19th, 2026 

Margaret Cho website

Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges at Oakland Asian Cultural Center, September 11, 2026 7pm

Artists featured:

Show Transcripts

[00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:34] Miko Lee: Tonight on Apex Express, I’m going beneath the surface with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. I’m your host, Miko Lee.

[00:00:57] These are two artists who’ve been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho, stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing, and Masaki Fujihata, a pioneer in new media art. And here’s what they have in common. They’ve both shifted with the times, but they never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them have changed. So stick with me. First up, my conversation with Margaret Cho

[00:01:29] Welcome Margaret Cho to Apex Express. 

[00:01:32] Margaret Cho: Thank you. 

[00:01:34] Miko Lee: I wanna start with my question I ask most of my guests, which is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? 

[00:01:41] Margaret Cho: I think my people are Asian American, my people are queer, my people are all ages, my people are progressive, my people have hope for the future. That’s what I’m hoping. I think that’s it, and that’s who I am too. 

[00:01:56] Miko Lee: Thank you. You started stand-up so young in this very Bay Area, and I think you started at age 14. I’m wondering what’s your earliest childhood memory of being a performer? 

[00:02:08] Margaret Cho: My earliest childhood memory of being a performer was I was actually a singer. I was a singer in a band of children, and I was probably maybe five years old. We were on a show on KTVU. I believe it was called Asia Now, and it was filming in the studio and I wouldn’t stop waving at my mother, who was just off camera. And after the performance the band leaders asked me not to come back. Aw. I remember that because I could not stop waving at my mother and so I kept breaking that fourth wall. That was my first memories of performance.

[00:02:47] Miko Lee: And what did that feel like to you? 

[00:02:50] Margaret Cho: I didn’t really get the idea. I didn’t really understand television exactly quite. I didn’t understand why we were performing. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t say hi to my mother while I was performing. I didn’t have a real comprehension of like even like rejection of what that meant or even performance or what that meant or television. So all these things that I come to learn about very well, rejection, performance, and television is my whole life. But back then I didn’t understand the importance of all those things. 

[00:03:22] Miko Lee: But there must’ve been some kind of zhuzh for you that you said, “Ooh, I wanna keep doing this,” right? 

[00:03:28] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I think so. Much later though, you know, I did perform as a pianist. I was a classical pianist. I was also a ballet dancer. So those things required performance, which actually would make me really, really nervous, I think because in piano you’re playing a classical piece. You’re playing Beethoven, you’re playing Mozart. So if you make a mistake, everybody’s gonna know. Also with ballet you’re choreographed and you’re in as a troupe. If you’re doing choreography with a bunch of other people- If you make a mistake, everybody’s gonna know. But with comedy, mistakes are a little bit more of, something you can gloss over a bit. There’s a little more control there, a little more room for chaos, which I absolutely need, I think, as a performer.

[00:04:22] Miko Lee: Mm, this is interesting. You’ve already described some of the different types of performance that you do, and you’ve also done so many things in your life. But I’m wondering if there is a type of art form that still makes you nervous. 

[00:04:34] Margaret Cho: Music. I think playing an instrument in front of people, I think because when I was a child and would perform these recitals, I would be so nervous. There were a couple of times in recitals where I had to start over, you know? When you’re, like, eight or nine years old and you make a mistake and have to start over, and this audience is, like, hundreds of people, it’s, like, really mortifying. I still carry that. I play m- numerous instruments, and I really dread playing them in public. What helped me a little bit is busking, which I did quite a lot of over, over the years because when you’re playing out on the street, there’s a… I don’t know. It’s like people are not really paying attention to you, and therefore you’re kind of in this divide of I’m in performance, but I’m also kind of not. So that helped. In general, I refrain nowadays from when I do music, I don’t usually play my instrument along with the band. I usually just focus on singing. Even that is quite nerve-wracking. Singing and doing music still, even though I’ve been doing it really my whole life, there is something about it that, that quite, um… because when you’re singing, you’re actually also the instrument. So there’s a bit of more required. That’s why I always prefer comedy. Your quality of voice doesn’t matter because the music you’re making doesn’t have to sound pleasing. 

[00:05:59] Miko Lee: And when you were busking, what instrument were you playing?

[00:06:02] Margaret Cho: Guitar. Ah. So I would play guitar, sometimes a six-string banjo, sometime, I’d play all manner of sort of guitar-necked instruments, which can go from, guitar to mandolin to a cello that’s, it has a guitar neck, so I can play- Ah that as well. So all those things, I cheat at everything ’cause I have a guitar neck. 

[00:06:21] Miko Lee: I love that. The improv just comes out of you in all different ways, I guess. 

[00:06:27] Margaret Cho: Yeah.

[00:06:27] Miko Lee: So you have been a path maker, rule breaker in so many aspects of your life, from comedy obviously, and producing and starring in the first Asian American TV show, actor, fashion maven, author, rapper, podcast host, and out and proud queer role model. I’m wondering, what’s a career dream that you aspire to? 

[00:06:46] Margaret Cho: Ooh, well, I wanna be an old lady crime show, like Murder She Wrote. I wanna just solve crimes. I love, like, a British crime show, like an old lady solving crime. Like a Prime Suspect, like a Helen Mirren. I love that kind of genre of television, and so I would love to mature in that ’cause, like, it’s so interesting and also so rich and, I feel really drawn to it. So that’s something that I haven’t… I’m a participant in a lot of those types of shows. I’m on a show called Bull Trent, which is very much that, which is really cool. And then I’ve been on Law & Order, which is the ultimate, SVU is the ultimate sort of crime show. So I would love to engage in that genre more.

[00:07:31] Miko Lee: Ooh, are you developing that on your own? 

[00:07:34] Margaret Cho: I’m not, but I am participating in lots of other people’s versions of it. They’re not out yet, so they will be coming, forthcoming. 

[00:07:44] Miko Lee: Coming soon, and then your own version starring you. Yes. The- Yeah … modern Murder She Wrote. I would love it. In what town would this be? In San Francisco or in- 

[00:07:53] Margaret Cho: Oh, San Francisco would be great. Yeah. San Francisco or, like, Marin. 

[00:07:56] Miko Lee: Oh, God. That would be really funny. 

[00:07:58] Margaret Cho: Sausalito. Sausalito would be so fun. You know, Napa Valley. You know, something, like, very, like, th- this community that looks very, like Saint Helena, like Calistoga, s- community that’s very quaint and peaceful and, like, kind of like foodie oriented and, like, very, you, you know, you think very upscale, but actually there’s a lot of dirty dealings going on underneath the surface.

[00:08:20] Miko Lee: The wine country Murder She Wrote. 

[00:08:23] Margaret Cho: Yes, I love it. 

[00:08:24] Miko Lee: I would watch that. That’s fun. So you also have expressed your art in so many ways. Your body is filled with so many tattoos. I think you have over 70. Which of your tattoos evokes the strongest emotion for you? 

[00:08:38] Margaret Cho: Well, right now I’m in this, like, trend only getting art from Korean artists, and these are guys. People from Korea who are tattooing now are really the best in the world. They are the state of the art. Like, their eye and their talent is just so innovative. There it’s semi-illegal, so they do it under duress, you know, and they have to sort of do all these different things to do it. But their ability to just visualize things that are just, that seemed impossible, you know, these miracles on skin that they can do. The art now I’m really resonating with. There’s an artist now that works exclusively in Dancheong, which is a kind of the color scheme of Korean temple art. And so all of his tattooing reflects that. And so I’m working on a very, very large piece on my leg that is, all Dancheong, which you know, for me, like having had lots of different kinds of tattoo, like I had sort of Japanese traditional and a lot of American traditional, and a lot of just kind of different kinds of art. Now to just really delve into the art of my ancestors is quite powerful, and by being done by very young, very skilled tattoo artists from Korea. You know, so I get to speak in Korean to them. We communicate in a language that is shared, that’s ours, which is very different from the way that I’ve communicated with all of the other artists that I’ve had over my time as a tattooed person. So, um, yeah, tattooing for me, it’s, it’s all about Korea right now. 

[00:10:21] Miko Lee: And what inspired your first tattoo? 

[00:10:25] Margaret Cho: My first tattoo was done by Don Ed Hardy, who is a legendary Bay Area tattooer, also, an amazing guy and he was a friend of the employees of my father, who, my father owned Paperback Traffic, which is his gay bookstore just going in the 1970s. And so a lot of people were getting tattooed by Don Ed Hardy. They were getting full body suits in the ’70s and ’80s, and the, the, um, images, like, so on our refrigerator as a… When I was a child, my father would put up, um, the full body tattoos of these guys that worked for him. So that’s what I would see every day. Instead of, like, our graded papers or, like, stuff that you usually have on a refrigerator, it was photographs of completely tattooed people. Um, and that really stayed with me. And so when I was ready to be tattooed, and this is, like, 2002, um, my father’s employees and all of our, like, old friends took me down to see Don Ed Hardy, who was doing these body suits, and, he gave me my very, very first very large Japanese-inspired piece on my stomach and back. And that kind of started it off. I got the most painful, most difficult place in your body tattooed first, which is, like, basically your stomach, and your sternum, your chest. All those areas are really, like, those are the worst, and I got that over with. And so I realized, oh, I could actually keep on doing this. And I always knew that I would be heavily tattooed because of that.

[00:11:59] Miko Lee: So your first one you chose really big, not just like a small something. You got a really big one. 

[00:12:03] Margaret Cho: Yeah. 

[00:12:04] Miko Lee: Wow. Yeah. Just jump in, girl. Just jump in. 

[00:12:07] Margaret Cho: Well, I just knew that was right, and I knew also this was probably, like, the only time that I would be able to get a very large piece from Don Ed Hardy, you know? Yeah. People know him, of course, from the clothing line- That’s right … and the sort of Y2K influence. But he is so much more than that. His influence on tattooing is really significant. That was towards the end of his tattooing career. He didn’t have many years where he kept doing it after, ’cause he explained to me that he absorbs the pain of people. Wow. And so he realized, like, that probably wasn’t so good for him physically as he aged, I was really lucky to get what I got from him, which is a very, very large piece and a very important piece.

[00:12:51] Miko Lee: Amazing. And as you’re talking about your childhood and growing up in the bookstore, it just makes me reflect on how your childhood was so unique and so interesting. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering if today you were to make a television show about your childhood, how very different… With, with more artistic freedom. It would be so fun. It would be so fascinating. There’s so many more streaming options than just the three networks that we grew up with. Yeah. So, what would that be like for you to do a TV show on your childhood now? 

[00:13:23] Margaret Cho: I would love it. I mean, I would love to create that world, recreate that world, because, you know, we had the influence of, like, people who were doing a lot of very early body modification, meaning these full, full body tattoos, and, like, body piercing, which was such a different thing. I mean, in the 1970s we had the rise of Harvey Milk you know, and his assassination. 

[00:13:44] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:44] Margaret Cho: We also had the devastation of the People’s Temple, which was all San Francisco people. 

[00:13:50] Miko Lee: Yep, yep. 

[00:13:51] Margaret Cho: It happened in Guyana, people don’t realize this originated in San Francisco and came from there. All the people who died were San Franciscans, and Oakland, Bay Area people. This is our people. My parents actually rented the recently vacated People’s Temple for my grandparents’ 50th wedding anniversary. Wow. Like, crossing the police tape. To go in and have a Korean party, and then my mother’s, “Lot of ghosts.” She saw all the ghosts.

[00:14:19] Miko Lee: Yeah, I’m sure.

[00:14:21] Margaret Cho: “Ghosts, ghosts, lot of ghosts. Well, ghosts don’t really do anything. They just make food get cold very fast.” You know, like that kind of a thing. So it would be a great TV show, I think. 

[00:14:32] Miko Lee: Ugh, I would watch that too. We’re talking about your new show, Choligarchy, which is gonna be at Berkeley Rep, and I read that you said it brings you back to your roots as a political comedian. Can you share more about this? 

[00:14:44] Margaret Cho: Well, I had the luxury of the Obama administration where I didn’t feel like I had to fight so hard to be heard and seen as a queer Asian American woman, ’cause I worked on the Obama campaign, I worked on, getting people registered to vote in 2008 in Philadelphia. I worked on all these different things with Cal Penn in 2008 to assure a kind of future where we are gonna have something different, and then we did. And then so I got to spend about eight years where I could do dance, I could do music, I could kinda like drift into these other arenas of work that I hadn’t been able to do because, before, had been, like, so much about fighting the Bush administration, so much about fighting what was going on. So now to be able to return to a thing that I’m very used to, like political commentary, where I’m really focused on using my voice to affect change and to create change, and it’s really profound, you know? I love doing this show. It’s got me thousands and thousands of death threats, which is also really terrifying and bizarre. I’ve always had a kind of very confrontational relationship with conservatives, but now it’s escalated to the point of, like, oh, I actually do fear for my safety. But I think that it’s worth it. The message is worth it, and I’m proud to do this show, and I’m very, very excited to bring it to very progressive Berkeley, which they’re gonna hear it better than anyone. I do think Berkeley is even more progressive than San Francisco. So it’s exciting. 

[00:16:27] Miko Lee: Well, San Francisco is filled with tech bros now, so it’s a very- Yeah … different vibe than when we were-

[00:16:32] Margaret Cho: That’s right.

[00:16:32] Miko Lee: growing up. I’m wondering, I heard you say about how different it was during the Bush regime, which is actually relatively tame in retrospect compared to the fascistic times we’re living in now. I’m wondering how different, now that you’re going back to the kind of political roots, how different is it from that Bush time in your approach to your comedy? 

[00:16:51] Margaret Cho: Well, Bush never descended into a cult. Bush never had the sort of magnetism as a person, to demand the cult-like sort of atmosphere that sort of exists now, where we have a leader who will gladly let all of his followers be on a decoy plane while he rushes away in a catering van. We think the decoy plane, that’s really America. Like, the decoy– we are all, as a nation, on the decoy plane. He’s happily content to let us all die to ensure his safety. It’s like they’re, and they’re still gonna follow him after that. So that’s a cult, you know? This is a different beast than we’re dealing with just sort of patriotism or the idea of like xenophobia or the idea of wanting this kind of America that Bush wanted. Bush couldn’t create that because he was not a cult leader, whereas now we have a bona fide cult and cult leader on a path to destruction. 

[00:17:57] Miko Lee: So given this time that we’re living in and how complicated it is, I’m wondering, especially as you’re going on tour with this show, what brings you comfort and makes you feel connected to home when you’re on tour or when you’re away?

[00:18:10] Margaret Cho: Well, my dog is with me all the time, so that’s really special. She’ll be there at Berkeley. She’s really, really amazing. I’m a big fan of social media. It’s connecting with people on there, and people are encouraging me through there. There’s a lot of points where I carry home with me. I’m also, at home on the road, because I’ve been traveling and performing for over 40 years, so it’s a place that I feel a great deal of comfort in. 

[00:18:35] Miko Lee: Because you mentioned social media, I’m just wondering, isn’t that where the death threats are coming from, though, is social media? Or are you getting them in—

[00:18:42] Margaret Cho: Yes. But I’m also get, I get them on my phone. I get them, like they—

[00:18:45] Miko Lee: Oh, you, they- Yeah … find your cellphone and contact you—

[00:18:47] Margaret Cho: Yeah.

[00:18:48] Miko Lee: directly? Wow. 

[00:18:49] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I get them, like, you know… I’m also concerned about, I’ve been doxxed, you know, they threatened to kill my dog, and I’m like, “She’s white. She’s one of you. Why would you kill her?” It’s kind of funny.

[00:19:01] Miko Lee: But you don’t respond to any of these folks, right? 

[00:19:04] Margaret Cho: No, you can’t, because you just don’t know what… I always think about, like, Melissa Hortman. They killed her dog. I don’t wanna be another example of, like, MAGA lunacy. When you speak out and you are a symbol of what they don’t want. They don’t want women, they don’t want people of color talking. When you are that you’re really in the line of fire. That’s why traveling works for me, I get to be very, very stealth and hidden. Um, and that’s kinda also why I travel so much, is to be stealth. Mm. I get so much encouragement from social media. I don’t wanna cut myself off from it. But yeah, you have to be careful. 

[00:19:42] Miko Lee: So you feel like that balance outweighs it? 

[00:19:45] Margaret Cho: Yeah, for sure.

[00:19:45] Miko Lee: And I’m wondering if you think there’s something that’s misunderstood about you? 

[00:19:49] Margaret Cho: When I’m talking and people don’t like what I’m saying, they will say, “Oh, look at this has-been talking again.” And I’m like, “I’m not talking because I think I’m a celebrity. I’m talking because I am alive, and everybody who is alive has the right to speak.” I think this is really important. I don’t talk because I feel like I have a responsibility to talk because I represent anything. No, I talk because we should all be talking. We should all have a voice. I don’t have a sense of importance about myself or who I am or what I do. I think that everybody should be talking, and now we should all be talking because now we are all on that decoy plane, and he will leave us to die. So I’m going to say something about it. People have a myth about celebrity that somehow it involves our ego, and that’s why we feel compelled to have a voice. But I think we should all have a voice no matter who we are. 

[00:20:41] Miko Lee: I’ve heard you call yourself the patron saint of outsiders. Can you talk about what that means to you? 

[00:20:47] Margaret Cho: I think for me it means to be able to have, my queerness front loaded, my Asianness front loaded, my gender front loaded, all these things that I want to be able to talk to those who feel like they don’t feel represented by mainstream culture, by white supremacy. If you have felt rejected or even just not included by society at large, I wanna hear your voice. I wanna hear your opinion, and I wanna know you. 

[00:21:15] Miko Lee: And last question, why should folks go and see Oligarchy at Berkeley Rep? 

[00:21:20] Margaret Cho: Oh, it’s Choligarchy.

[00:21:20] Miko Lee: Choligarchy.

[00:21:22] Margaret Cho: It’s my nation. It’s my dictatorship. In my dictatorship, we have universal healthcare. In my dictatorship, we have a universal living wage. If we actually made the billionaires pay their share, if we actually stopped supporting Israel and Argentina, other countries which I don’t know why we give them so much money, but we do, if we stop doing that, we stop supporting the billionaires, if we stop giving corporations handouts, we could actually have a universal living wage where everybody in this nation would just be able to just live. We could just live because we are American. We could just live. And then your work could be what you really wanna do. That would be such an important change to the way that we exist as Americans. And we could do that if we actually stopped giving b- bailouts to corporations, actually made billionaires pay their share, and stopped giving money to countries that are not ours. That’s what my platform is. That’s what I run on, and that’s what I plan to do. 

[00:22:35] Miko Lee: And folk can find out more by going to see the show at Berkeley Rep, and we’ll put a link in our show notes. Thank you so much, Margaret Cho, for joining us on Apex Express. 

[00:22:45] Margaret Cho: Thank you. 

[00:22:46] Miko Lee: Next up, get a preview of an upcoming unique performance at Oakland Asian Culture Center. Listen to Sawaal Jawaab 

MUSIC

[00:24:01] Miko Lee: That was Sawal Jawab with Arjun Verma, Eman Hashimi, and Pezhham Akhavass in Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges, a one-night-only performance on Friday, September 11th at the Oakland Asian Culture Center. The concert’s a rare opportunity for Bay Area audiences to experience the interplay of some of Asia’s richest classical music traditions from India, Iran, and Afghanistan. Next up, we hear from two voices, multimedia artist Masaki Fujihata and Carin Adams, senior curator at the Oakland Museum. Masaki Fujihata is a world-renowned sound, installation, interactive, and new media artist. He’s also a professor at Keio University. His work has been shown all around the world, and now it’s coming to the Oakland Museum, opening September 18th and running through the end of December. The piece is called BeHere / 1942, A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration, and it’s a new augmented reality work. So tune in to my interview with Masaki and Carin Welcome to Apex Express, multimedia artist Masaki Fujihata and Carin Adams, senior curator at Oakland Museum. 

[00:25:13] I’m so happy to have you both with me, and we’re talking about the new exhibit BeHere / 1942: A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration, which opens at the Oakland Museum from Friday, September 18th to Sunday, December 27th. So thank you so much for joining me. I wanna start with a question I ask all of my guests. I’m gonna start first with you, Carin, and then I’ll go to Masaki, and the question is, who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you? 

[00:25:53] Carin Adams: Oh, wow. I think there are lots of different facets of my family and who I think of as my people. Um, I think in, in this work in particular, I’m really, um, thinking a lot about my grandparents, my, my mother’s parents, and, um, my mom, who’s turning 91 in, um, October, and, um, her and her siblings’ experience, um, being incarcerated in Tule Lake. So- Mm … that, I think has, has a lot to do with wh- why I’m here, and thank you so much for having me. 

[00:26:36] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much. And Masaki, what about you? Who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you? 

[00:26:43] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, in my case, my, career started with the computer graphics long time ago in the ’80s, so I came in, uh, Bay Area and, uh, West Coast quite frequently to join a big, uh, conference and so on. But then in ’90s, I was very many times to be invited to be in Europe, so-called media art, i- is so dominant. So my curiosity is about the visual arts plus computer technology. Then nearly 10 years ago, I started to play with augmented reality. I recognized AR is a very good technology to put the history in actual moment. So the title Be Here 1942 means, I try to call the people in the past in the present. After one of my friend, the professor at UCLA invite me to be in Los Angeles, then we started to focus onto the Japanese Americans’ history. That was the first, a kind of coincidence, but it was, very interesting to me because, I was born in Tokyo and grew up here in Tokyo, so usually I didn’t think about who is a Japanese.

[00:28:10] Along with this production, I studied a lot, not only the racial problems, but also the identity, , not only the personal identity, but also identity of Japanese and also American. It’s really difficult to understand what’s is the identity in the America because so many different people are living together and of course there are several conflicts. This is very good study for me, through the new media technology and, through the meeting with the people. Some of them really had, severe experience inside the camp. I never had a chance to think about these opportunities. Then I really want to recreate what had happened in the 1942. That was my point of view for this project. 

[00:29:08] Miko Lee: I’m wondering when you were growing up in Japan, did you learn about the Japanese American incarceration? 

[00:29:15] Masaki Fujihata: Maybe, maybe, but a tiny. Most of the young students just thought, oh, this is the history, not mine 

[00:29:27] Miko Lee: And did you… Were there kibei that were there? Cause I know there were a lot of Japanese Americans that had been pushed out and repatriated to Japan. Did you grow up knowing any of those people? 

[00:29:39] Masaki Fujihata: Mm, not, not really. Not really. Um, how can I say? Mm, maybe this is the education, the Japanese education. They didn’t talk much about the history. The first part is an ancient moment, is very, very, you know, impressive. But, at the end of the term, so the modern age usually passing very, very fast. 

[00:30:10] Miko Lee: Oh, interesting. 

[00:30:11] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, so n- not only about, history between America and Japan, but also China and Japan.

[00:30:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:19] Masaki Fujihata: We have very few knowledge in, on the context of, uh, history education. I mean—

[00:30:24] Miko Lee: So sort of World War II- I mean- and forward? From World War II—

[00:30:27] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, yeah …

[00:30:28] Miko Lee: You didn’t really learn about it?

[00:30:28] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, modern age. Modern age. I believe this is very big problem in the education. 

[00:30:35] Miko Lee: That’s so interesting. So the first that you really learned about the Japanese American incarceration was during, when you started this project at UCLA? Is that right? 

[00:30:44] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, yeah. I know something about the history in the US, but when I started to do research, there are many details, and every people’s history is very, very different. So the textbook of the history is just the surface- So that’s why I wanted to show more the detail through a new media technology. 

[00:31:16] Miko Lee: I read a quote from you that said, “My aim was to peer deeply into photographs to derive from them more than was visible on the surface.” Can you talk a little bit more about what that means to you?

[00:31:29] Masaki Fujihata: Yes, because, I started to think about to focus on the moment when they ride the bus. So then, of course, I did some research to read some oral history, but, most of them didn’t tell about the moment because I think this was just one hour or two hours for waiting. I suppose they usually don’t want to remember, and also they thought that this is not important day, then they forgot.

[00:32:04] Miko Lee: What was it about the bus that you were curious about? 

[00:32:08] Masaki Fujihata: We planned to realize our project, to think about the beginning. What is the beginning? There, there are quite many novels and writings about the life in the camp because of, of course, this is so heavy. Four years in the camp is unbelievable. According to my research, some people said they thought the war will ends in three months. But in there they spend in the camp, over four years. So of course, this is a heavy story and also while in the inside the camp. There are some conflict between the first generation, second generation or American side or Japanese side. The beginning is, of course, the Pearl Harbor raid, but, the bus, suddenly one day the bus came into your town and you were asked to ride the bus, and before riding they didn’t tell them where they are going. So so if it happened now, how can we behave? So this is my question. This is the beginning, and they didn’t know what will happen in the future. And then in parallel, I did some research to see the photographs because, there are many documentary photographs were in the archive, in National Archive, and also Library Congress. I tried to, see the photography, but as I said, when see the picture, you know, the detail is telling a different story, against the comment. The comment is just they are lining up for riding a bus or something, or Japanese American families get together and waiting. Of course they have some name card. At last I found through one of small girl’s eye, there is a reflection of the photographer. But, not only the photographer, there are two, three, or four more people standing with the cameraman. Then, of course I understand they are all Caucasians. They are not Japanese American people. So for the little lady, for the little girl, when she was surrounded by, white officer, perhaps military police, she has nothing to do. But on the surface of the photography, she’s smiling. So this contrast is the beginning. So this is a problem about media, visual media. So then I really want to share this experience with the other audiences through the exhibition. That was my intention.

[00:35:18] Miko Lee: And had you seen the photographs from Dorothea Lange and Russell Lee prior to working on this project?

[00:35:25] Masaki Fujihata: Of course, I know these names because they are very famous,, documentary photographer, the magazine Life started to publish from the year 1933, it was hit, so popular. I was really surprised because they did the job to make a document for Japanese Americans, and there is over 4,000 pictures left in the archive. I saw all of these so many times, so I can tell each picture. I can tell what is the difference, between the Dorothea and Russell Lee. So each photographer has, different characteristics. But I really surprised because, Dorothea Lange’s photography is very different from others. And—

[00:36:18] Miko Lee: And the government didn’t like them. They locked them away for years because they were too real. 

[00:36:25] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, and because, Dorothea’s photography is always associated with the object inside the photography. She tried to understand who is she, who, who is—- 

[00:36:38] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm … 

[00:36:39] Masaki Fujihata: and try to have a good relationship with the object. Most of the photographer, like a press cameraman, it’s just go there, “Hey, smile,” and shot is their, you know, way of business. But Dorothea’s way is very different, so sometimes, I can tell she is always calculating the distance from her to the object. I enjoyed very much to have a chance to see all of these details. Of course, another luckiness because all of these photograph were shot by the government, then all of these are now public domain. Even me from Tokyo, I can see so many photographs with high resolution. I think those are made after year 2000 because of the technology came in. Then now they are supplying 3,000 by 4,000 pixels. That’s why I could enlarge and to see the reflection on the girl’s eye. It’s a coincidence, but also it’s the evolution of computer technology from analog photography. So this is also interesting part to share with the audience.

[00:38:01] Miko Lee: Thank you. Carin, I wonder if you could talk about what an audience will see when they come in to see the exhibit. 

[00:38:08] Carin Adams: The exhibition is going to happen inside and outside the gallery. So if people are visiting the museum coming up through our entrance on Oak Street, they will have an opportunity to enter the augmented reality application that Masaki has designed where they’re, standing there grounded in, the architecture of the Oakland Museum. But they’re also seeing people, dressed as if they were in 1942, waiting with their belongings and their family members. They’ll be able to see the buses that lined up on Oak Street in ’42. There was a civil control station that was across the street, and Dorothea Lange took some very famous photographs of people waiting with their belongings in front of their houses that, on the museum side of the street. Masaki has adapted the augmented reality that he first developed for Los Angeles for Oakland. So people on entrance onto our campus will have that experience, and then if they come into the gallery, then they’ll really be entering into the gaze of these eyes. They’ll be surrounded by very high resolution images that Masaki has blown up, to mural size. You’re forced to encounter the people that were reflected in the eyes of the subjects that Lange photographed. 

[00:39:45] Miko Lee: Thank you, and I know that in the collection, you’ve had these Dorothea photos for a long time, right, in the Oakland Museum’s—

[00:39:53] Carin Adams: Yeah. The Oakland Museum is the holder of the Dorothea Lange archive, including some of her images of the incarceration. The Bancroft Library also has extensive holdings of her work and material , related to this history. And of course, Masaki did lots of research in the National Archive and Library of Congress.

[00:40:16] Miko Lee: Masaki, I know this is the second version of the show since you have opened it first at JAMM and at UC, with UCLA. Yeah. What was it like for you to recreate it for the Oakland Museum? How has that experience been?

[00:40:30] Masaki Fujihata: I’m very, very lucky to find OMCA. Mm-hmm. We started to think about the production in OMCA. I made a research through, of course Dorothy Lang’s photography. Then there is a number of the street, 1117 Oak Street is the place where people apply their address and family name. The Civil Control Station is that address. I was very surprised because this is a street in front of the museum, and actually the other side of the street was the Civil Control Station where the bus came in. So this is exact place I really wanted to put my augmented reality models. So I was very shocked because I never think about the museum is a real place.

[00:41:24] Miko Lee: So it’s truly a place-based piece of art because that is the history coming alive in that very spot. 

[00:41:31] Masaki Fujihata: Yes. Yeah. So, all the projects start from the realization of augmented reality. 

[00:41:39] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:40] Masaki Fujihata: So augmented reality is a kind of tech term, but augmentation is adding some information rather than the first wa- surface or rather than the display. In this case, we are putting the happenings in the 1942 in present, and then try to make a contrast between now and the past. The exhibition inside the gallery is showing a kind of process of the research to make this augmented reality piece because for making the 3D model data, we invite many volunteers into a special studio. I have to direct them. I have to prepare some scenario for them. In some cases, you are the university students. Coincidentally, you met the professor, while waiting for the bus. This is a fiction I made. When I need to make a scenario, I really need a research what is possible, what is not possible. So then the photography help me a lot to make a small scenario. 

[00:43:01] Miko Lee: How many volunteers worked with you on this? 

[00:43:04] Masaki Fujihata: I think totally 64 volunteers. 

[00:43:08] Miko Lee: Wow. That is amazing. 

[00:43:10] Masaki Fujihata: Each one was asked to walking towards the point where the bus would come, and then the second part is waiting, and then the third part is just lining up for the bus. So there is three different scenario. Then each person appears three times. Then totally you will see nearly 200 people. 

[00:43:37] Miko Lee: Wow. And I understand that you use, in order to utilize the AR, you use cameras that kind of replicate those used during the incarceration, and I’m wondering what made you decide to choose that?

[00:43:53] Masaki Fujihata: So I try to know the core idea of each technology, because the technology is usually used for capitalism. My manifest is liberate technology from capitalism. So technology has another dimension, not only for serving for the capitalism to make money for your life more rational, but the technology also can give you a chance, who are you? What is life? What is the world? So I really want to use the technology another dimension of the technology usually used by the companies, and capitalism. In this case, this project is really good because very nice photography was left in the archive. But imagine in the 1942, photography was a high technology. Very few technicians or rich people could have the camera. Now so popular everybody has a camera inside their mobile phone, but it was high tech. And now augmented reality is somehow popular technology, but no one didn’t use the AR technology to think about what we are doing as an art. So I wanted to use augmented reality to, to think about what is our life 

[00:45:32] Miko Lee: Ooh, that is so interesting. I really appreciate that. And I’m wondering because you’ve seen audiences go through the first exhibit, I’m wondering if anything surprised you by audiences that have seen it and what, what you’d like people to walk away with after going to your installation. 

[00:45:51] Masaki Fujihata: I was really surprised because this was my first case the audience had a tear. So after they saw the augmented reality, some of the person said, “Masaki,” I suppose, she suppose that, “Perhaps my grandfather was here.” Could feel the same impression or imagine, she could imagine what had happened on her grandfather So it’s a bit like a cinema, but there is no written story, so each person can explore the images through a tablet. But, uh, maybe five minutes later, uh, the user will feel inside the scene. So In another words, I can say you are going to feel you are inside a cinema studio. You will be captured by the camera. And also another, okay, another interesting aspect because, I could develop this project because the photographs were left made by Dorothy and other people, uh, professional documentary photographer made these photography. So photography was left. And then, um, while you are using iPad in the entrance plaza of, Oakland Museum, you will see many Japanese people wearing the costume and, waiting for the bus. But now you are the cameraman. You believe you are seeing what had happened through the display, but, imagine for them inside the image were looked by you. So this is the viewer you are going to see, but also from them, from the object, you are the cameraman.

[00:48:04] Miko Lee: So you want people to feel both sides, both being the watcher but also in it—

[00:48:09] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah.

[00:48:10] Miko Lee: Immersed in the experience. 

[00:48:11] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, hunter. 

[00:48:13] Miko Lee: Mm. 

[00:48:13] Masaki Fujihata: Image hunter, yeah. 

[00:48:15] Miko Lee: Image hunter, mm. I, I feel like you’re saying utilizing technology as a tool for your emotions as opposed to a capitalistic gain. I’m wondering if you’re working with AI at all, and your thoughts about it. Because you’ve really been on the forefront of so much multimedia since the ’80s and I’m just wondering now people are just talking about AI and the impact of artists  and I wonder what your thoughts are about that.

[00:48:39] Masaki Fujihata: I, I think, uh, it’s too early to, uh, work with AI as an artist because, uh, e- even the developer of, uh, AI didn’t know what happened inside, so it’s a black- totally black box. So that’s interesting part of AI. Uh, maybe you know some, some story about this. Very recently, uh, the AI ju- just hack the connection, then they escape from the inside the laboratory to go outside the internet. So this could happen. Uh, that’s why, because a human couldn’t imagine. So the AI doing something different, and it’s really a black box. Then, uh, that’s interesting point. If I can be inside the development company as an artist, I can make something interesting hacking software, but it’s a huge business, and, uh, I think this is not the moment for the artist. And also, as you know, all the data inside the AI is, uh, happenings in the past. 

[00:50:02] Miko Lee: Right. 

[00:50:04] Masaki Fujihata: And then, right, the present is important for the humans. What is the role of the artist? There is some, uh, sentence, artist is the person who is creating something new which has not exist before. so, uh, we are not AI, so w-we have to know who, what we should do in contrast to AI is the important moment 

[00:50:37] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I wonder if you would want to just reflect briefly on how this, this piece that you’re presenting at Oakland Museum is very resonant right now in America because of the current politics of incarceration of peoples and you know, we’re at the same, at the exact same concentration camps where Japanese Americans were held. Immigrants are being detained and put there right now. I’m wondering how this piece speaks to the moment that we’re living in in the United States right now.

[00:51:13] Masaki Fujihata: Um, please do not make more mistakes that American government did before in 1942. So Our project can be a kind of reference what the American government did after the Pearl Harbor. 

[00:51:39] Carin Adams: Masaki, would you wanna talk a little bit about the new piece that you’re making? 

[00:51:45] Masaki Fujihata: Oh, I see, I see. I think- That’s a good idea. I, I totally forgot. Yeah. Thank you, Carin. Because I proposed to Carin and museum about to make a new piece. The idea is about, uh, the poster. The, that they… So the, in Okura case, maybe, uh, to l- late April in 1942, the poster paste on anywhere, everywhere inside the town, and talking about the, at the certain day, you cannot be stay here. You will be criminal. So, so this is the s- starting point. Then they need to come to the civil control station to sign up, and then one week later, the bus came in, then they need to go to the camp. Then the poster is now very famous, but, uh, usually, people didn’t read it Then I, I asked to, collect volunteers to ask read this text on the poster, uh, several different locations inside the Oakland. So when you see the final result, the view of the people reading the text aloud is very peaceful, very bright, California sunshine and there is a lake behind and sometimes, you know, the buses came and stop and go there. So this is very peaceful, but the content is very strong- strongly contrast- co- contrasted. So it’s a command from the government. I really wanted to, to make this contrast through this new production. So you, you will see three vertical monitors, and, 25 different group of people. I think there was nearly 45 people helped me to realize this

[00:54:02] Miko Lee: What is it you hope to evoke by adding this new piece of the relocation poster?

[00:54:08] Masaki Fujihata: I really wanted to involve some of the young generation and family and also, known Japanese American people. So all of these people, of course, have some fear against the, this moment, and then try to, uh, send messages. So they helped me to realize this.

[00:54:39] Carin Adams: The video is really going to provide the soundtrack for the exhibition. There is no sound in any of the other film elements or in the AR other than what visitors bring in conversation into the space. But they’ll be able to hear the local volunteers that Masaki assembled reading the exclusion order text and we’re expecting that to be very profound- impactful. And yes, some of the people who volunteered for this new video element were incarcerated themselves, others are descendants, and then there are just people who are representing different immigrant experiences who wanted to participate. So it’s a very local production, and it really cites us in the present moment with this really chilling text from the past. 

[00:55:33] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining me and chatting with me about the exhibit BeHere / 1942. I’m really excited to check it out, and I hope our audience gets a chance to go and see it all the way through the end of December at Oakland Museum.

[00:55:48] Carin Adams: Thank you so much for having us. 

[00:55:50] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.

The post APEX Express – 9.3.26 – Beneath the Surface with Margaret Cho & Masaki Fujihata appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Join Host Miko Lee as she introduces Dr. Robynn Rodriquez’s show “Spitting Fire.” Dr. Robynn speaks about Filipinx and colorism with Dr. Joanne Rondilla.

LINKS

Dr. Robynn, The People’s Professor

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:35] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we get to hear the podcast from Dr. Robin Rodriguez called Spitting Fire, and I’m so excited for you to listen to it. Check it out, and if you wanna hear more, we’re gonna link in the show notes an earlier interview I did with Dr. Robin Rodriguez. So please listen to Spitting Fire with Dr. Robin

[00:01:01] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: I can’t actually remember a specific episode when my parents or my Lola, who helped raise me, explicitly said, “Don’t stay out in the sun.” But I always knew growing up that staying out in the sun was something I shouldn’t do because being dark was something to be avoided. I remember being embarrassed by my mom who would bust out an umbrella on a bright and shiny day. “Mom, it’s not even raining outside,” I remember complaining. I hated the big hats she would wear or insist I wear, or the comments of, “You’re getting darker,” also in a disapproving tone. I remember, too, the high praises anyone with lighter skin was heaped, even when I didn’t think they were that particularly attractive. Or how if my relatives knew someone was going to be marrying an American, basically a white person, they would exclaim, “Oh, they’re going to have beautiful children.” When I brought home a hapa, a dude who was Filipino and white, I was told that if we got married, I would be improving the race. I’ve always known, whether I can remember being told, “Don’t stay out in the sun,” that if there was a skin hue to aspire to, it was to be light.

[00:02:49] To be called mestiza was to receive one of the best compliments. To be a mestiza is always already to be beautiful. Of course, if anyone said I was mestiza, it was always qualified as mestizang morena. That is, someone who exhibits certain types of physical traits that are associated with a mestiza, like having a more pointed nose or being slightly taller than the average Pinay, but not the lighter skin of a genuine mestiza. So that’s why I was sometimes called mestizang morena. Still meant as a compliment. After all, I could still enjoy the privilege of being associated with mestizaje, but only partially So many Filipinas in the diaspora, especially those of us who live in white settler colonial societies like what we now know as the United States as well as Canada, so many of us share experiences similar to the ones I’ve experienced.

[00:03:58] My dear friend and colleague, a fellow sociologist, Dr. Connolly De Leon, who currently teaches at Ryerson University in Canada, made this shared experience a topic of study in her book chapter, “Mas Maputi Ako Sa’yo,” I’m Lighter Than You: The Spatial Politics of Intraracial Colorism Among Filipina-Filipino Youth in the Greater Toronto Area. It was a chapter that was part of the very historic anthology, Filipinos in Canada: Disturbing Invisibility, edited by Roland Coloma, Bonnie McElvaney, Ellen Ethel Dongohan, John Paul Katungol, and Lisa M. Davidson, and it was published in 2012. Now, I’ve taught, uh, Dr. De Leon’s chapter, Connolly’s chapter, in my Filipino American experience courses in the past, and it’s always, always deeply resonated with my Filipina students. In Dr. De Leon’s chapter, she starts off with a quote that so many of us are familiar with in some way. She writes, quote, “You’re so dark. Yuck.’ My cousin would say to me in disgust as she would place her forearm beside mine to compare her light skin to my dark skin.” End quote. Dr. De Leon continues, quote, “As early as the age of four, as early as the age of four, I was taught to feel ashamed of my complexion. I did not understand what was so shameful about being the particular shade of brown that I was.” End quote. The shaming that Dr. De Leon and so many of us experience comes from colorism, which scholars define as the discriminatory treatment of individuals falling within the same racial group on the basis of skin color.

[00:06:01] On this episode of Spitting Fire, Dr.- Doctora Robyn Speaks, you’ll actually hear less from me and more from yet another friend and colleague, Dr. Joanne Rondilia, who I recently hosted as part of a lecture series jointly sponsored by the Bolosan Center for Filipinx Studies, of which I serve as the founding faculty director, and the School for Liberating Education, my platform for offering Filipinx or Filipinos and ethnic studies courses that are often only available to those who happen to be able to get accepted into the four-year, often elite institutions where they are taught. It’s where I get to teach all of these amazing courses that I think all of us should have to the broader community. Dr. Rondilia has researched on colorism in the Philippines and the diaspora for over a decade. It was a topic of her 2012 dissertation, which was entitled Colonial Faces: Beauty and Skin Color Hierarchy in the Philippines and the United States. In her 2007 book, co-edited with Paul Spickard, entitled Is Lighter Better? Skin Tone Discrimination Among Asian Americans, she explores colorism as a phenomenon that no- not only plagues Filipinos, but Asian Americans actually more broadly. So now I’m gonna turn to Dr. Rondilia and her lecture entitled Don’t Stay Out in the Sun: Understanding Filipinx and Colorism. Go ahead, Joanne. Take it away. So happy you’re here. 

[00:07:44] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: All right. Thank you so much, Robyn. It’s, uh… Do you mind if I call you Robyn? Shall I call you Dr. Robyn? 

[00:07:50] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Oh my God. You only know me as Robyn. Okay. 

[00:07:56] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: I will call you Robyn, but everybody else, you, you are required to call her Dr. Robyn- … Queen Robyn. You know, that’s, that’s how. But it’s, it’s such a, a joy to be here. Um, you know, before we opened the doors, uh, Robyn and I were talking about, um, you know, what it is to be an academic and the type of language and, and spaces in which we share our research. And I think one of the things that’s really hard, especially for the soul of a lot of, uh, academics, is that we… it’s so rare for us to really share our research, uh, with the community, right? ‘Cause I don’t think of myself as a researcher. I think of myself more as a, a storyteller Right? And I think that that’s really, uh, when students- when I have students who refuse to, like, engage in research, I try to remind them, like, research is not… I don’t think of research as, uh, sort of like the white person’s, uh, uh, game. I think of research as something that is connected to us, um, and it’s our birthright. It’s our ancestral birthright, right? Because storytelling is our ancestral birthright, and that’s the lens in which I come into, uh, to exploring this issue of colorism.

[00:09:15] So show of hands, for those of you in the room, I’m curious to know how many of you were told, uh, were, were told this: “Don’t stay out in the sun or you’re- or, or else you’ll get too dark.” How many of you were raised with that sort of mantra? Yes. Right. I, I almost feel like these words, uh, are so quintessential to the Filipino experience or the Filipinx experience. Like, “Don’t stay out in the sun or else you’ll get too dark.” And I’m someone who, I was born and raised on Guam, um, and so everybody on Guam is dark because we are always out in the sun, right? And my mother is very light-skinned. Uh, she came from a middle-class family from San Pablo City in the Philippines. My father’s from Lucena, and he ca- he grew up poor, uh, and rai- was raised by a single mother. And so m- there was this definite class difference between my parents, uh, but there’s also a, a skin tone difference between my parents. Like, my dad was someone who was very, very kuripot. He was very cheap, but he had this great love for my mother. Um, you know, and I think part of that was he saw her as like, you know, this, this wonderful, like, prize almost, you know. Because she came from a well-to-do family, and, you know, when they got married, her family did not want them to get married because, uh, he was not wealthy. But he was someone who, because he works on Guam as an engineer for the government of Guam, uh, and, and the US military, like that sort of… and, and he had, uh, I think in total like 13 deeds to his name. That’s sort of what eased my, my mother’s family into, you know, being supportive of their marriage. But there was… And, and on my mother’s side of the family, this is a family, and mind you, I love them very much, but this is a family that, um, values beauty a lot, right? My mom and my aunties were all some form of provincial, uh, beauty queen And so this is why me and my brother and my sister were always told, “Don’t stay out in the sun or you’ll get too dark.” Because the idea was you had to preserve whatever, whatever it was our mother gave us, right? Even though, um, you know, like, uh, you know, even though, like, members of her family say didn’t, didn’t necessarily find us attractive , you know, the idea was, like, you know, as children of this, this woman or as chil- as, as, you know, members of this particular family, you had to, um, you had to sort of preserve yourself.

[00:12:18] So as a young kid growing up on Guam, I always wanted to go swimming, uh, ’cause my, my neighbors across the street, actually one of them, uh, represented the island of Guam, uh, during the 1988 Olympics in, in Seoul, right? So I always wanted to go swimming. I wanted to learn swimming, but my mother wouldn’t let me because I would get too dark And so that, you know, like, there, there was so much of our lives that were limited because of this need to preserve beauty. And this is how I entered the research, uh, the exploration of colorism. So very quickly, for those of you who do not know what colorism is, simply put, colorism is a looks-based or, you know, um, you know, physical look, a looks-based system of discrimination where light skin and Eurocentric features are favored over darker skin and non-Eurocentric features.

[00:13:13] These discriminations typically occur within the same racial or ethnic community. Uh, the term colorism was coined by, um, the writer Alice Walker. And when she first started writing about colorism, she was talking about, she was talking about colorism in a very intimate way. She was talking about the way in which lighter-skinned Black women evoked pain, right, uh, onto darker-skinned Black women. And so this is where she comes up with this term called colorism. Colorism is intimate. It happens within the same racial or ethnic group, typically. And the reason why I say typically is because, um, in our society, we live in a very colorist society. So I’m sure some of you, and you can throw up reactions, some of you know people, may be related to people who say, “I’m not a racist. I don’t have a racist bone in my body, in my body. I love Black people. I listen to Beyoncé. Halle Berry’s my favorite actress.” Like, you know, they’ll go on and on and on about how they’re not racist. But when you look at the patterns of what they deem is attractive or, um, sort of civilized among, uh, the Black or African American community, they always resort to people who tend to be, like, lighter skinned, right? And that’s also a way that, um, colorism manifests itself. It starts in the intimate space, but it manifests itself in a much larger, um, you know, in a much larger sphere. So for, um, the Filipinx community, when we look at popular culture, right? And, um, I don’t know if any of you have heard of the show or are watching a show called, uh, The Cleaning Lady It’s a new show that was, uh, it just premiered last week through Fox. And The Cleaning Lady, the reason why this is really big for, uh, the Filipinx community is because the… It, it’s supposed… It originally was supposed to be a Filipino storyline, right? And it was a way to sort of introduce, uh, you know, Filipinx characters in the public sphere. But what happened was S- Shannon Sossamon, the actress Shannon Sossamon, uh, was originally slated to play the main character, who is an undocumented, uh, Filipina maid, right? But something happened during the initial table read, so they end up casting Elodie Yung, who’s, uh, French Cambodian. So they changed the character a little bit, but when you look at the setting, it’s set in Los Angeles. It’s really a Filipino family. And my argument when I look at popular media and colorism is that oftentimes in popular media when they’re trying to introduce Filipino, Filipinx characters, it’s done through the mixed race body. It’s done through a mixed race person, right? So for those of you who may be familiar with Shannon Sossamon, she’s mixed race. She’s a mixed race Filipina, but she’s very white-passing, and it’s usually mixed race white-passing or mixed race white-pleasing, what I call white-pleasing, uh, Filipinos that popular culture suddenly becomes interested in us, right?

[00:16:45] And that’s what we see in a show like The Cleaning Lady. In the next few months, I think Jo Koy, uh, is going to have a movie called, um, I think it’s called Easter Sunday. And again, Jo Koy, very Filipino, right? It, it’s ingrained in his comedy. But what makes, what allows his fame to happen in the United States is that he’s very white-passing and white-pleasing, very different from someone like a Rex Navarette, whose career is much longer, right, than someone like a Jo Koy, right? So there’s definitely colorism at play, right? But when we’re looking at the intimate spaces, the way colorism plays out in the Filipinx community, it’s the lighter skinned Filipino discriminating against the darker skinned Filipino. In the Asian American community, it’s the Chinese person discriminating against the, the Cambodian person, right? So there, there’s these different levels of, of colorism at play. Colorism, um… It’s important to know that colorism is the discriminatory system that makes anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism exist. It actually maintains anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism. And the reason why this is important is, one, when we look at anti-Black racism, and you, you’re hearing this a lot, you know, um, either in academic circles or even in, uh, sort of, um, more popular conversations. I feel that it’s important to talk about anti-Black racism in conjunction with anti-Indigenous racism because they happen hand in hand. And when we look at the founding of the United States, for example, the founding of this country happens through the genocide of Indigenous peoples as well as the enslavement of African peoples. So they’re not separate. They come together. And so when we’re looking at colorism, the system of colorism, right? Colorism is what, is what allows anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism to exist Um, what makes, um… And, and, and we see this through the different, uh, colonial periods of the Philippines. There’s something very distinct about colorism in the Filipinx community, and it really has to do with our, um, our, our colonial history.

[00:19:25] And so on the worksheet, there’s just a very sort of like quick and dirty kind of list of like these three major periods of colonization in the Philippines. What I really wanna ta- uh, point to is the role of the Chinese throughout these historical periods in the Philippines. Because, um, typically when you talk about colorism, uh, colorism is most prevalent in, um, the African American community and the Black diaspora. But there’s something very distinct about Filipinx colorism, and it’s that our notion of lightness is defined by Eurocentric standards of beauty, right? And this is because of Spanish colonization. But it’s also defined by Chinese standards of beauty or East Asian standards of beauty, and this is because of the positioning of the Chinese throughout these colonial periods. Because the Chinese, um, historically were the, um, were the merchant class, they were often elevated above indigenous Filipinos, right? And so that’s why today in the Philippines when you see people who are in power and you look at the mixed race or mestizo, you know, uh, the mixed race people who are in power in the Philippines, they’re often, uh, mixed race Chinese, right? And that’s because of the, the legacy and the presence of Chinese in the Philippines. And so it’s, um, it’s, it’s the history of the Chinese in the Philippines, th- these notions of Chinese lightness that really make colorism in the Philippines and among Filipinx very distinct. Uh, it’s a very distinct conversation.

[00:21:14] Um, uh, I wanted to pause and say if you have any questions or if I’m going too quickly, feel free to, you know, put this in the chat, and I will try to address it, um, as I go along. Um, in– At the beginning of the talk, I asked how many of you were told, “Don’t stay out in the sun.” And for those of you who said that you were told this, by show of hands, how many of you heard this in the context of family? How many of you were told this in the context of friends or any other intimate, uh, setting? ‘Cause oftentimes these messages are circulated among the family. And so When w- uh, and again, like colorism, you know, relative to racism, colorism has a very… There is this intimate aspect because oftentimes how we understand our own value and our own self-worth has to do with the messages that are articulated in the family, right? So, uh, one of the interviews that I had conducted, uh, was this, with this woman who when I conducted the interview, this was in the Philippines, and she worked in the entertainment industry in the Philippines. And she, um She, uh, had talked about how her lola would address her and her cousins. So the woman I interviewed, very light skin, light eyes, light hair, and that’s why she’s an entertainer in the Philippines.

[00:22:47] She’s a model, and at the time she was hosting a television show. And she said that growing up, her lola always called her Miss Universe, right? And it was because of the way that she looked. Her lola would call her cousin, who was, um, like Spanish mestiza, sh- so, uh, this person who I called Tyler, Tyler was Miss Universe. Her cousin was Miss Philippines ’cause she was mestiza, and then Tyler’s sister was Miss Cebu. So here, you know, like… And this is very blatant, and I’m not saying that all families are like this, but here you have this very explicit example of, a lola articulating the differences between these three young girls. Queen of the universe, queen of the Philippines, queen of the province. And in her interview, Tyler had said, “Yeah, it was very clear that Lola had her favorites, and it was in the way that she designated you in this spectrum of, like, these sort of beauty queen titles,” right? In another interview that I had, uh, conducted there, and this was an interview here in, um, the United States, uh, I- in the research I called her Milen. Milen talked about how whenever there was a dance or prom or something like that, there was this whole process of, you know, her and her brothers having to go to Lola’s house so that Lola could see, you know, what everyone was wearing and that there could be pictures. But what was very clear was, um, Milen’s youngest brother was clear…

[00:24:29] You know, her words were, “He was clearly not a favorite,” and this was largely because he was darker. He was often omitted from the photos. Um, Lola didn’t really care about what he was wearing and things like that. She always put attention to Milen, who was very light-skinned, uh, and her two brothers who are also very light-skinned. So there’s a very central role in which the family plays in how we understand, um, colorism and how we understand personal value And so as I was, uh, exploring this, uh, in sociology there’s a term called the beauty cue, and the beauty cue is a system of classification. It’s a societal system of classification that classifies women from lightest to dark to, you know, from most valuable to least valuable. And so what I did using this theory that Margaret Hunter had wr- uh, she wrote about, I added to this conversation by talking about the intimate beauty cue, because the beauty cue itself is about a societal, uh, a societal structure, but the intimate beauty cue is how we understand our value, how our notions of beauty are created in the most intimate spaces.

[00:25:47] And the reason why this is important to look at is because I think each and every one of us can, um, we can look at the TV and we can look at societal messages and say, “Yes, that’s how society understands beauty, but that’s not me because I’m my own person.” But in the intimate space among family and friends, when you’re getting the messages that you’re not beautiful or you’re not valuable and it’s coming from an unconditional love space such as the family, therein lies the problem and why colorism is such an intimate issue, because these are messages that are articulated by people, usually by people that you love or by people that you’re closest to.

[00:26:35] There is a gendered aspect to colorism. Women in families are often seen as being more responsible for, um, you know, for beauty or engaging in beauty practices over men. However, men do… You know, like, there is some pressure for men Uh, when we look at colorism in popular media, again, in the US sphere, the few chances we get to see Filipinos or Filipinx in popular media, they are oftentimes light-skinned, mixed-race people, such as, and again, the example of, um, The Cleaning Lady. We have the example of Jo Koy and his future projects. It’s not until we get into the independent sphere that we can see more variation. But when major institutions such as, uh, a Fox network or Netflix is trying to introduce a public to the Filipinx community, they’re gonna go with what they feel is safe, and it’s usually someone who’s light-skinned, someone who is white passing, someone who’s white pleasing, right? You know, there is something about, uh, the way in which popular media uses the mixed-race person or the mixed-race body. When you look at skin-lightening advertisements, oftentimes it’s a mixed-race person that is being used to model such products. Uh, this is over t- I think it’s over 10 years ago now. Um, there is a company in the Philippines called Glutamax, and when they launched their line, they used a mixed-race, um, Black Filipina model named Jinkee Oda.

[00:28:27] And what they did was they showed the sort of before and after, and one of the taglines in the advertisement in Tagalog, it said, “You could be white like me,” because it showed this progression of her being dark-skinned and then being light-skinned. And again, like, here for this particular, um, product, you’re seeing the usage of, um, you know, that, that progression. It harks to very old, uh, beauty advertisements that, um, sold products specifically to Black women, um, you know, especially skin-lightening products to Black women. So there’s, there’s a way in which the mixed-race person is often used to sell beauty, to sell product, to sell, to sell us our notions of, um, lightness Having said that, I’m not trying to demonize the mixed race person. I, you know, I, I don’t think it’s fair to, um, I do not think it’s fair to, for example, um, boycott Jo- Jo Koy because he’s so fair, right?

[00:29:35] Or, um, yes, I love that comment, how we lift up Olivia Rodrigo, but our love for her or Saweetie is very, is, it’s fairly limited. Exactly. You know, um, you know, like, I, I don’t want to attack the person, but if you’re light, you cannot… You, you have to recognize the amount of privilege that you have, right? Um, and then when we’re looking at skin lightening products, again, like this is a global, um, this is a, you know, a multi-billion dollar global industry. Um, in 2018 it was valued at 8.3 billion. 2022, those numbers have gone, have gone up. Um, and as of late there has been a lot of talk about, uh, skin lightening products for various reasons. Globally it’s because that market is so high, but here in the United States this has become an issue because skin lightening products and the usage and sale of skin lightening products has actually reached our policies.

[00:30:41] So for example, uh, the CARES Act. Um, because of the work of… Excuse me Because of the work of Ilhan Omar in the CARES Act, what, um, what was able to happen was the enforcement of the usage of a particular ingredient called hydroquinone. So this ingredient, uh, it’s a derivative of mercury, which is very harmful to the skin. Um, this is a very popular ingredient that is used by a lot of, uh, skincare professionals. Now there’s an enforcement about how you can buy or have access to this particular, uh, ingredient. So skin-lightening products and the, the conversation about skin-lightening products has been a huge issue as of late. Um, I wanna end with two thoughts, and it’s this. I want you to, to reflect, and I know this was a lot of me talking. I want you to reflect on the way in which we articulate ideas of colorism on a daily basis. I want you to think about, you know, just, uh, a few weeks ago, for those of you who may have gathered with family, what are the ways in which you’ve heard these, you know, certain ideas about colorism articulated? It’s often, “Oh, this, uh, this person is so beautiful.” Sometimes there’s a comparison of children. Sometimes when you’re greeted by the people you love, there’s comments about, oh, how dark or light you’ve gotten. Um, included in the conversations about colorism is body size, how much weight you have or have not lost. You know, um, the, this is all part of the c- colorism conversation. There’s a daily… There’s a way in which we articulate ideas of colorism on a daily basis. I want you to reflect on, um, the beauty practices that we engage in, you know? If we… You know, like, if I dye my hair blonde or if I wear, you know, green contacts, what is my reason behind it?

[00:32:50] Is it because I want to engage in a sense of play? Or is it because I’m trying to escape a part of my identity, right? These are, these are important questions for us to ask because these are the daily, everyday ways that we, um, sort of, we contribute to these ideas of colorism. Um, and that, um, I believe is connected to the everyday practice of anti-racism, right? Um, you know, it’s important to understand that, like, there’s no end because, you know, with respect to colorism, this is a systemic issue. And so what we have to do is tackle it piece by piece. Sometimes it’s about the practices that we engage in, uh, individually, but it’s also about the way in which we engage with the people around us. With respect to colorism, because it’s so intimate, right, it’s about having the hard conversations, um, with the people that we love the most, right? Our friends and family 

[00:33:55] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Dr. Randilia. You know, I actually have a, a question. I’m wondering, Jo-Ann, do you feel, especially with increasingly more, um, kind of mixed race, uh, especially kind of Black and Filipinx, um, figures, um, you know, uh, in popular culture, is your sense that there is a shifting around colorism, um, or not?

[00:34:28] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: I think that there’s small shifts, right? So I think of, uh, for… And I’m looking at the com- the comment, the Magandang Morenx, and then also, you know, we, we do have like, um, you know, the, the Black and Filipinx sort of mixed race entertainers like her and Saweetie. Um, also, uh, there’s some no- notable athletes that are Black and, um, Filipinx. Like, I think of, I think of their popularity as moments as opposed to actual, like, movements, right? And the reason being is because white supremacy is so prevalent, it’s going to take so much to dismantle that system, right? The magnitude of, of white supremacy is, is beyond anything that we can, you know, like, we can quantify, right? And so, um, I, you know, like, so I, I think of, uh, I, I think of something like the Magandang Morenx movement, I think that they’re important. I, I think of them more as moments because… And it’s not because, uh, they’re not powerful. It’s because white supremacy is just so prevalent, right? Um, and so, and I, I don’t mean to be the pessimist in, in that, you know.

[00:35:50] Um, I think the way that we, the way we move forward is to do the heart and soul work, right? To do the anti-racist work, to recognize the ways in which, um, we contribute to anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism, but to make the conscious decision that this is gonna, like, I, I’m going to work towards eradicating it e- while knowing that eradication may not happen in your lifetime. And I’d hate to be the pessimist. It’s not gonna happen in our lifetimes. But our jobs right now is to plant the seeds towards that vision, right? It’s to plant the seeds to make these moments the actual movement, to make it so overwhelming to white supremist systems that white supremist systems have no choice but to go away. But it takes so much, um, so much seed planting. Um- 

[00:36:49] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: So Joanna, it looks like there’s two questions that are sort of interrelated, and both, I think you probably saw them, um, kind of connect with concretely, you know, some ideas around or strategies around addressing, um, both colorism and anti-Blackness in the intimate space of the family or among friends, et cetera.

[00:37:10] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Okay. Think that is an excellent, uh, question and something that I have grappled with and, you know, is very close to my heart. The first thing I’ll say is there’s no easy way to bring this up with family and friends, right? Especially, you know, um, in our families, especially in our respective families. Um, how… I mean, you know your moms and dads, you know your lolas. You, you know them, and you know they’re hella stubborn, right? Like… And so the advice that I have is this: It’s impossible to change someone’s mind. What you can do is model certain behavior, right? What you can do is model certain language, right? And that alone will speak volumes- Yeah because you are not gonna change, you know, maybe you’re not gonna change, like, your lolo or lola’s mind. But the people around you are listening. And so here, here’s an example, right? Um- W- uh, for me, e- especially in, like, having these conversations with my mom, because she’s very much the driving force, uh, for a lot of the research that I do, you know, um, I know my mom, and I know that if I make her feel like crap, like if I make her feel stupid or if I make her feel like, um, what she’s saying is old and antiquated, I, I know that I’m not gonna get through to her.

[00:38:36] So what I had to do with my mom was event- was create a love language of understanding, right? Because by creating a love language of understanding the ways in which, like, some of her comments have hurt me, when I started to actually honestly articulate my pain, it’s not that my mom let go of some of these ideas, but she started to create an understanding of the impact of her words. And what that did was it changed the way she would… Like, she wouldn’t say the things she would say. She wouldn’t tell me how dark I was. She wouldn’t make comments about, like, me being fat or whatever, right? Because she understood, she understood the impact of that. And as I started to, to realize, like, okay, we may not come to an agreement, but there’s a love language that we can speak to, that’s how I started seeing changes in, in the way that we interact, right?

[00:39:33] Um, and so you can’t change someone’s ideas, but what you can do is plant seeds and sort of, and really stand your ground in terms of how you feel about certain ideas, right? But you have to do that in a love language ’cause Filipinos, the language we speak is love, right? So that, I, I think that’s, that’s what’s important. It- You have to understand that you may not change someone’s mind, but you’re also making it so that the people around are listening. ‘Cause I see the way that, like, my niece, you know, my nieces and nephews, they had just… They have such a better way of dealing with my mom when she would say terrible racist things, right? They had a better way of communicating with her and articulating their, their frustration and their anger, and it would change. It may not have always changed my mother’s ideas, but it definitely changed her behavior, and it changed her consciousness, and I think that that’s all we can really do, um, is develop that love language.

[00:40:39] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: And if I may, if, uh, if I can just also add, you know, I, I, I think what you said is absolutely spot on and really resonates, um, Joanne. And, and I would add also, I think that there’s something, um, really important about how these broader social movements can also- 

[00:40:55] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Mm-hmm … 

[00:40:56] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: become so important. I mean, so just in my own family, you know, my eldest was, uh, biracial, Black Filipino. And, um, of course, having a biracial, uh, grandson didn’t necessarily mean that my mother could also grapple with her own deep anti-Blackness. Um, and it was always a struggle. And, and I agree with Joanne. Sometimes, you know, it is really understanding the particularities of the, of your own dynamic with, with specific intimates in your circle and understanding that certain kinds of lo-lov-love languages open up possibilities for conversation whi- whereas other approaches close off. But I do have to say, you know My mother, you know, is going to be 79. It really took, it took all the movements that happened- Mm-hmm … in response to the George Floyd murder, it took all of the movements around anti-Asian hate for my mother for the very first time, and this is some- You know, I’m her daughter. I’ve been teaching around race and talking about race. I, you know, I, I produced a biracial grandson for her, right? Um, and it– we could never have real frank conversations about white supremacy, could not really touch it, you know? There was a way that my mother didn’t want to, to name white supremacy as something that actually shaped her life. And, you know, those are really com- there may be complicated reasons for that, but being able to name that was always really, really hard. Talking about anti-Blackness was hard. But all of those movements did something for her, and it shifted things in ways that I thought w-were going to be impossible at, by the time- Yeah you know, in her period of life. And not only did she– was she able to have some real kind of honest conversations, but she actually became a kind of advocate, and then used her own platforms to start conversations about white supremacy, um, and kind of race in our community. So I guess that’s to say that it’s not entirely hopeless, you know?

[00:42:57] I think- Yeah … it is true change can be slow. It can be incremental. It comes in these gentle kinds of ways, um, over time that require a lot of love and patience. And couple that with, I think, also kind of these movements that are also equally invi- uh, important to grow, um, that together that you can see change is, is really absolutely possible. Um, so, you know, just to kind of share that. But it, it is. You know, it’s so hard ’cause even within a family where there are biracial, uh, family members, right? It– that isn’t itself even going to necessarily change even when they have, right, a loved one, um, that ought to be- Yeah … challenging that for them.

[00:43:44] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, too, um, you know, another thing that helped me, especially, you know, like with my mom… So when I did the research, I did spend some time in the Philippines, and my mom came with me, right? So seeing my mom’s very light-skinned, um, you know, uh, Filipina navigate the Philippines. And so I just wanna say for the record, I know I look really light, and it’s because we’re in COVID, and your girl has not had some sun, okay? Like just, just so that… ‘Cause I’m looking at them like, “God, yeah,” like I know I look light. I swear, you know, I’ll show you pictures. But, you know, um, I, I didn’t– At the time when my mom came with me to the Philippines, I did not realize how important it was for me to observe her in the Philippines because I was able to get these glimpses of my mom before she was a mom, right? And I was able to understand, like, okay, like… So one of the sort of things that I learned was, like, all these hurtful things that, like, my mom would say to me about the way that I look and what have you, I learned that part of the reason why she leaned in so hard to, with me is because when we would travel, you know, like go around to, like, malls or whatever in the Philippines, people would always tell her, “Oh my gosh,” like, “your daughter looks just like you.”

[00:45:09] And, like, if my mom were sitting next to me, and you can see this in, like, uh, photos with the two of us, like she’s very vanilla, and next to her I look like burnt caramel. And I think that there was something about the embodiment of my body size, ’cause I’m big, you know, and, and my, my darker skin tone. It’s almost like I was the physical embodiment of everything that she had feared and everything that she was told you should not. And for her, it was confronting, like, I gave birth to this, to this person who’s everything that I, you know, that I was told was wrong, right? And so I think I, I… You know, like just watching her navigate, I began to understand, like, the context in which she was raised. I, I started to understand the messaging that she, uh, was, was given. Because when I finished the dissertation, I, I felt like I finished the dissertation at a place where I could actually forgive my mother for all the things that she would say about me. I c- I could forgive her for, like, the comments that she would make because all those things that she imposed onto me was a product of her own pain, and I was able to have something that she did not have, which is a sense of healing. ‘Cause until her very last breath, she was so trapped by these notions of beauty. She was so trapped by needing to be beautiful because this was the constant messaging that she was given, right? And so What we can offer, you know, and the way that we, um, the way that we engage in our sense of healing, especially with the people that we love, really comes down to I know that when my mom left the world, I planted all the seeds that I needed to plant in her, right? I know… Sorry. I know that I have this healing, something that she could not have. I know that her grandchildren don’t have to suffer the pain that she did. So I think understanding our family, right? Understanding, like, um, you know, uh, the people, our family and friends, understanding them in that respect, putting into context the reason why they do the painful things we do, choosing how w- choosing the way in which we heal from the things that they did to us, that’s all we can really do, right? And all of this, I think, and I’d hate to sound so cheesy but all of this is encased in, like, this deep, profound sense of the love that we have for ourselves, the love that we have for each other. In the midst of confronting immense colonial legacies that time and time again tell us that we are not worth it, right? If we can find that light, and if we can find that value, and if we can share that value with the people around us, that’s all we can really do. 

[00:48:20] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Joanne.

[00:48:25] Thank you. 

[00:48:26] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Sorry about that. 

[00:48:27] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: You don’t have to apologize. I think that’s one thing about this space, Bulosan’s space, the School for Liberating Education, is we all do this out of deep, deep, deep love, right? That that’s the whole purpose- Yeah … of being able to host, um, share s- to create space like this, to share space like this. Um, we all know, um, people like you, me, uh, those of us who chose this path into academia, we didn’t do this because we wanted to produce knowledge for an institution that wasn’t built for and by us. 

[00:49:00] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:00] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: But it was precisely to produce knowledge that could heal and liberate our people. Yeah. And so, you know, so appropriate for you to feel all of those feelings, and that’s why it was so important to have you here, because this is such, uh, for so many of us, a deeply, deeply hurtful kind of… We s- we struggle with this, and I think what I- 

[00:49:25] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Mm-hmm … 

[00:49:26] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: What’s so valuable, what you bring to the table is it’s so much more complicated than the colorism. There are all of the ways in which colorism intersects with class, intersects with body. I, I mean, you know, even the whole notion of, like, the magandang morenx.

I mean, you know, that there are even these fine distinctions that exist in the Philippines about the morena mestiza. You know? Like, that was, like, the, the way that I would get, like, weirdly, like, sideways complimented. Like, “Oh, she’s a morena mestiza, though,” you know? Mm-hmm. What does that mean? But, you know, our bodies, um, are subject to such scrutiny within at least that context, and even in this context, right? We’re constantly dealing with… We’re actually dealing with multiple contexts, right? Contexts, Filipinx folks in the diaspora, where our bodies are subject to examination and evaluation- Mm-hmm … every single day, and we subjected ourselves also, our bodies to- Yeah … these valuations all the time. And, you know, um, and we do this work because we’re trying to find, you know, a way out, right?

[00:50:29] A way, um, to heal all those, um, bits of hurt and brokenness and, you know- I mean, thank you so much, uh, Joanne, for not just sharing your amazing research, but also your heart with us. And I think I can m- I can feel that, um, people came away with, uh, from today with just that much more, um, just healing. And, you know, that’s the point. That is why we do what we do here. Yeah. Um, uh, that’s why we created, uh, the Balosan Center and, um, why I launched the School for Liberating Education. Um, this is the whole, this is the reason why we do this. And so I, with that, I do wanna thank everybody for joining us, um, and, you know, really invite everyone to continue to follow, uh, the work, um, that we’re doing at the Balosan Center, what we’re doing at the School for Liberating Education.

[00:51:27] The next major thing actually is next week. So my next book is coming out, um, on Asian American activism. Uh, it’s actually really cool to talk about coming full circle, Jo-Ann, because basically this is a collab between our professor, our old professor, um, when we were undergrads at UC Santa Barbara, Diane Fujino and I, um, ended up collaborating on a couple things, and this is the latest collab, which is a anthology on Asian American activism. And one of the things I’m doing is launching a mini course, um, on Asian American activism, uh, that’s based on the book, but also stuff I’ve done, um, on activism. So next week, I guess on Thursday, we’re officially launching, um, the, the new, uh, the registration for the new course. And so we’re launching it with this conversation I have with, um, Art Nagin Concordia, who is the godfather of ethnic studies in the K through 12 system, basically the ninong of ethnic studies in K through 12. Uh, was one of the key authors for the ethnic studies model curriculum and does m- uh, ethnic studies work at Santa Barbara, actually, also with Diane. So anyway, um, that’s coming up next week. But do keep following, um, you know, the, the work that we’re doing. This is, uh, you know, such important work, um, supporting our scholars and our artists, our community historians. And again, thank you so much, Jo-Ann. Yeah, no. I really think we have our real, real conversation. ‘Cause one of the projects I always wanted to do is, uh – 

[00:53:09] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Yes. 

[00:53:09] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: No, thank you … a podcast that gets real, real, like real, real. Yes. Like, let’s really talk about- 

[00:53:13] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Just so you know, you’re- … those 

[00:53:14] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: real stories … 

[00:53:15] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: you’re looking at, like, 25 years- of friendship, so I know lots of, uh, Robyn’s secrets. I have lots of pictures ’cause I- Yeah. Oh, my God … was very good at documenting these things. 

[00:53:24] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: You, you did that photo shoot of my… I think you did a before and after of my ja- my, my, my eyebrows. 

[00:53:30] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: I have a photo of you, like, in a, in a, like, a face mask. 

[00:53:34] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Yes. Yes, yes. You can- So- If, if, if I look this good coming on 50- … it’s because Joanne taught me about makeup and skincare regimens. 

[00:53:46] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna launch a course on my skincare regimen. 

[00:53:51] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Oh my God. 

[00:53:54] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Skincare after your 30s, right? 

[00:53:57] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: No, seriously, I’m about to launch, I’m not, I’m not even joking. I’m totally launching a whole, uh, journey to 50, so y’all can come because I, I’m, I’m, I’m going. I’m getting there. As of next, or the week after next, it’s T minus 365 days to 50. So join in the fun. Anyway, Joanne, it’s so great to see you. I wish I could give you a big hug. Uh,

[00:54:21] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: well, we’ll see each other soon hopefully.

[00:54:23] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: I can’t wait to, like, really break bread with you because- Yes … you know, I always know I eat well when I’m with you. Like, I r- I will still- I still dream about the ice cream, that homemade ice cream you make. Like, nothing compares ever again to the ice cream that I consumed that you make. So thanks again. Thanks everyone. 

[00:54:43] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Thank you so much everybody. Hope to see you. Thank you. 

[00:54:58] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.

The post APEX Express – 8.27.26. Dr. Robynn’s Spitting Fire on Colorism appeared first on KPFA.

A story-driven 3-part audio project about Cambodian, Hmong, Laotian, Vietnamese, and other Southeast Asian families doing everything possible to breathe with ease and live freely besides the people we love. 

Created by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, and hosted by writer and activist Michelle MiJung Kim, My Family seeks to answer many of the questions countless families in our communities are grappling with today. Mass deportation and family separation are fueled by isolation and silence. With My Family, we aim to dismantle both with stories full of heart, compassion, and an honest look at the tangled paths many of us take to reckon with the past, rebuild our lives, and make a new place home. 

Our deep gratitude extends to all the community members who shared their stories with us, even while painful to recount. Their commitment to creating stronger, more informed communities is unparalleled. 

In our first episode, we talk to Roger Viet Chung to bring APSC’s longstanding Restoring Our Original True Selves (ROOTS) program from inside San Quentin to listeners outside. Roger is faculty in the Department of Ethnic Studies at Laney College and a founder and faculty lead of Restoring our Communities (ROC), Laney College’s program for formerly incarcerated students and justice involved juveniles. He previously served as the lead instructor and curriculum designers of ROOTS. 

We also speak with NC, Pam, and T. NC was deported to Laos this past year. Pam was deported to Cambodia three years ago, and T was deported to Cambodia six years ago. 

Music from episode 1, as well as related resources, can be found below in the show notes. If you are an impacted community member in California or have a family member who is directly impacted by detention and deportation, we encourage you to contact APSC at [email protected] or our partners at New Light Wellness and the Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants.

Music:

Resources:

Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:00:00] All across the United States, ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, is terrorizing immigrant neighborhoods. Every time I scroll on social media, I see horrifying videos of children being ripped apart from their parents as they get shoved inside unmarked cars of ICE agents. You can hear the family’s cries for help, children wailing, neighbors and protesters yelling at the abductors.

The scene is [00:01:00] pure chaos, swirling with desperation and fear. I notice I’m clenching my jaw as I imagine the trauma of the moment that will last a lifetime for these families. But the scene usually ends here, and not long after I scroll away, I’m met with another slew of videos of similar intensity. But what happens to the people after this painful moment?

What happens to the families after the protesters depart? What happens when their loved ones actually get detained, get deported? where do they go, and what happens to those who remain? I’m your host, Michelle MiJung Kim, and I’m partnering with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express to bring you stories from families who are grappling with the impossible choices amid the cruelty and horrors of mass detention and deportation, stories full of truth, understanding, and lived experiences that are too often hidden or silenced. [00:02:00]

Tony (pseudonym): Even though I don’t have no family and I don’t even have no family over there, and I don’t even know nothing about Vietnam because I left the country when I was 10 years old.”

My dad raised all four of m- you know, me and my sibling all by himself. So just emotion and everything rush in, it’s just like, you know, heartbreaking.

So every time, when my dad come to visit me, he always break down and cry because he just like, feel sad that his oldest son is gonna get shipped back to his country.

Pam (pseudonym): My son bought a car for me. He bought a car. He’s like, “Mama, you’re not getting deported. I got you a Honda Civic already. I got you a car. I got a place for you.” You know how, that affect me when your family member bought you stuff be thinking they’d be coming home?

Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:03:00] Every family threatened by ICE is different, with their unique traditions, memories, and inside jokes. But there are also fears and questions that every community being ripped apart shares, whether our families are Asian, Latino, Black, or Arab. For many Southeast Asians in the United States, there’s one other thing in common.

Their families found refuge here in the ’70s and ’80s, fleeing unthinkable genocide and war in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. Most have loved ones who didn’t survive. The ones who made it out, around one point one million, are the largest refugee community ever resettled in the United States. Upon arriving here, families were forced into impoverished and under-resourced neighborhoods.

Parents who just lived through war and genocide never got the mental and physical healthcare they critically needed. To survive poverty and attacks in their neighborhoods and schools, some youth turned to gangs and [00:04:00] crimes. After serving their time, they’ve since grown up, transformed, and found their ways to heal.

They are now mentors, parents, small business owners, homeowners, just everyday neighbors who, like most of us, take their kids to school and pick up groceries and call this country home. And yet, around sixteen thousand of these Southeast Asian community members are facing imminent deportation based on convictions from years, if not decades ago, and despite the fact that they already served their sentence.

Today, California is home to the largest Southeast Asian American population, followed by Texas, Washington, and Minnesota. And these families are seeking answers. How did we get here? What can we do to keep our family safe and together? And their friends and neighbors are asking questions, too. How can this be?

What can we do? That’s where these stories come [00:05:00] in. We’re taking a closer look at what happens to families after the headlines pass and the blaring noise quiets down. You’ll hear directly from people who are living on all sides of this nightmare, all trying to do what’s best for their kids, their parents, their loved ones.

Welcome to My Family.

As some listeners may know, the Asian Prisoner Support Committee based in Oakland, California, was born out of the campaign to support the San Quentin 3, Eddy Zheng, Viet Mike Ngo, and Rico Riemedio. The San Quentin 3 advocated for ethnic studies in the California State Prison, and in retaliation, the prison administration sent them to solitary confinement.

Out of that struggle, they started the Restoring Our Original True Selves, or ROOTS program at San Quentin, which the Asian [00:06:00] Prisoner Support Committee continues today, teaching hundreds of people under the motto, ” No history, no self. Know history, know self.” Together in ROOTS, community members incarcerated in California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation prisons, or CDCR, learn immigrant and refugee histories, address intergenerational and inherited trauma, and build lifelong leadership and community skills.

Many ROOTS alumni are now mentors and counselors in California, while others are working in reentry, violence prevention, faith, and other community organizations across the state.

To kick off our first episode, we’ll start with some context from Roger Viet Chung. Roger is faculty in the Department of Ethnic Studies at Laney College in Oakland, and founder and faculty lead of Restoring Our Communities, Laney’s program for formerly incarcerated students and justice-involved youth.

He has served as the lead instructor and curriculum developer of the ROOTS in San [00:07:00] Quentin.

A content warning for our listeners that in today’s episode we’ll be discussing war and genocide, inherited trauma and self-hatred, depression, and family separation. Here’s Roger.

Roger Viet Chung: My name is Roger Viet Chung. Uh, I’m from Oakland, California, and I currently work for Laney College. At Laney College I instruct in the Department of Ethnic Studies, a range of classes that range from Southeast Asian studies all the way to courses like race, gender, and sports.

In 2013, um, I had the honor and privilege of, supporting and facilitating a course for Asian Americans and others in San Quentin State Prison, and which launched me on a, a journey of understanding more about incarceration, the prison industrial complex, abolition, the way pipelines form. And since 2013, I’ve been deeply involved in figuring out how to work reentry, how to support those in custody, how to help people come home, how to help people on parole tell their stories.

Um, [00:08:00] and so since 2013, uh, I’ve been working for a program called Restoring Our Communities, which is a reentry program at Laney College, where we support the reentry of folks coming home from prison, jail, juvenile hall and help them explore their post-secondary pathways and dreams. In addition to that, I also run our Laney College, a satellite campus inside the Alameda County Juvenile Justice Center, where, we work with, uh, young people who are interested in going to college, transferring to four-year universities, um, and, uh, reuniting with their families.

Uh, I’m a Vietnamese American. I was born in, uh, 1978 and, born in the United States, my proximity to incarceration and the entire carceral landscape you know, was pretty distant up until I went to graduate school. Uh, when I was in graduate school in, um, the early 2000s, I heard a story about a person named Eddy Zheng, who at that time was incarcerated in San Quentin State Prison.

We heard this story about how Eddy and two other folks were asking for ethnic studies programming at their [00:09:00] prison when there was a growing movement for education inside CDCR. Uh, we understood that, you know, that movement, um, you know, landed Eddy in solitary confinement, got him transferred, uh, to another prison.

And I think for me, that was my first moment where as an Asian American, I connected both with this idea that Asian Americans were doing time, but also you know, it intersected with my field of study, ethnic studies. And so, that was probably my first moment where I saw myself possibly in the work.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Before we come back to Roger, we had a chance to talk to Eddy Zheng about his fight for ethnic studies at San Quentin, the early days of APSC, and how he continues to support incarcerated and formerly incarcerated community members. Let’s hear from Eddy

Eddy Zheng: Happy New Breath everyone. My name is Eddy Zheng.

The importance of ethnic studies, Asian American study, [00:10:00] is really focuses on the long tradition of the struggles, that many of the immigrants and refugees, the people who came to this country, uh, for multiple reasons, right? Some of them came voluntarily, and some of them came as refugee because the forced migration as a result of the United States’ foreign policies, and then many of the push and pull challenges that came from other, uh, countries across the world.

The long tradition of, of that struggle really is a internal one, right? The internal struggle is finding a sense of belonging in a foreign country or in a country even though we may be born here sometimes, there’s still this sense of being treated and being respected as an American versus a perpetual uh, foreigner. 

And for many of the people who were impacted by the criminal legal system [00:11:00] and by this type of oppressive foreign policy and systemic racism oftentimes people don’t necessarily get an opportunity to understand their culture and history that informs their identity. So therefore as even I was learning how to read and write and speak English and to eventually to become thinking critically I have experienced the power of when I was able to comprehend and articulate the connection that I have, right, with my ancestors and my culture and the history that informs my identity.

Immediately, I was able to, find confidence and find that sense of belonging that I was not alone, that there, there was a long lineage of the knowledge, The connected point to, not only who I am as an individual, but then who I am connected [00:12:00] to, the rest of the humanity, right?

I think when we talk about that lineage really ties back to the 1968 Third World Liberation Front, when students and people in the community, the activists that who stood up fighting for the opportunity to have curriculums and, or materials that really teaches a more well-rounded history around, the makeup of the United States of America, So the fight for the Asian American studies, women’s studies, and global studies was very important, as it continue to 1969 in UC Berkeley, and then also later on in 1999, where students are also facing threats of having ethnic studies and Asian American studies eliminated, from the university curriculum, right?

So I have experienced all those lineage of struggles to fight for what the basic academic right, for people [00:13:00] to learn about each other’s culture and history and how that historically has been continued to also trying to erase history. when I was in San Quentin State Prison, then once I was able to start to become a thinker, then I realized especially after September 11, the scapegoating of people of color, scapegoating of people that who came from other countries is perpetuated within the prison industrial complex, myself and three of my friends, we were advocating for, uh, the opportunity to be able to, uh, engage, in this process of, Asking to have Asian American studies or ethnic studies within the prison college program, And so that, that was when we signed a proposal, you know, advocating not only for the opportunity, to study, Asian American histories a- and cultures, but other people’s culture and [00:14:00] histories at the same time, and then also honoring the prisoners’ rights, right?

To choose, what we want to learn and how we participate in the decision-making process within the volunteer-ran college program in the San Quentin State Prison. The outcome was the three of my friends who signed the proposal you know, Mike Ngo Rico Riemedio we were, uh, put into solitary confinement uh, for signing that proposal.

And then my other friend that, who signed the proposal, Stephen Liebb, you know, even though he didn’t go to solitary confinement, that he, but he was punished as a result of signing the proposal. That’s when the forming of an unexpected Asian American movement, right, in the Bay Area, which is the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, where volunteers and activists that who have heard of the struggles, of the activism inside San Quentin advocas- in advocacy for Asian American studies, ethnic studies, and prisoners rights, that they [00:15:00] came together to support us, you know, inside the prison system.

And so it’s very interesting in that, the dynamic, uh, between, we want you to, uh, learn and we wanna give you opportunity to learn, but then learning and applying what you learn comes at a price, that’s where the importance of why ethnic studies of Asian Americans are important because it allow us to gain power, right? when we gain power of thinking, and critical thinking, then there’s this fear from the, the people that, who have power and don’t wanna share that power.

And so that’s why it’s very important. So fast-forward to post-incarceration after… first of all, I spent 11 months, uh, in solitary confinement as a result of that advocacy in San Quentin. And then later on, uh, when I was finally released after, uh, being incarcerated for 21 years, [00:16:00] I’ve never forgotten the importance of, creating more learning opportunities within the prison system for those that who are still incarcerated.

Around 2012, that’s when we, you we meaning that, you know, that’s when I me and members of the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, we started thinking about how do we go inside the prison and create Asian American studies and ethnic studies program inside, We were able to went under you know, as volunteers, we were able to go into San Quentin State Prison to participate, uh, in in this program called, TRUST. I believe the acronym is, uh, Teaching Responsibility Utilizing Sociological Training, uh, which is designed to transform incarcerated men, uh, from social liabilities into assets, right?

So, Uh, while we were participating, we were able to get an opportunity to engage The participants who are [00:17:00] AAPIs to ask them if they are interested into creating a program where we’re able to, learn about our culture and history, And they all agreed that it’s important.

After about, like, almost like a year or more of kind of like a collaboration, brainstorming, and advocacy from within the prison, finally in 2013, I think that’s when, we started the first cohort of the ROOTS program. The ROOTS acronym is Restoring Our Original True Selves, uh, which is, really came about as a result of the brainstorming of the prisoners, a lo- of many of the lifetime prisoners who were inside.

 Because they felt that along the way they have lost themselves, right, as they were trying to find a sense of belonging.

So the goal is to, uh, use that as a way to heal intergenerational trauma that many of the prisoners experience when they came to the United States, and that ended up, making poor choices and then, [00:18:00] uh, involved in the criminal legal system.

that’s when the first ROOTS program was started in 20, uh, 13. And then what is interesting was that when it started, I wasn’t allowed to go in to participate in the program that I co-founded with the people inside, it wasn’t, uh- Until the graduation of the first cohort of ROOTS, uh, that they allow me to go in to do a keynote speech, right? Because the participants inside, advocated saying that, “Hey, we would like Eddy to come in to be our keynote speaker at our graduation.”

And so that’s when I was able to go in and really, experience this fruition of all the advocacy. seeing many of those leaders and participants graduating from the first year of the ROOTS program really solidified why an Asian American study is so important, right? It really focuses on, uh, for the participant to [00:19:00] learn about the connection the, to the ancestors and the culture and, and the history.

I mean, That sense of belonging they had lost along the way or for many was not able to learn in traditional economic environment, and then part of this is also even though the curriculum focused Asian American studies, but then it also connects to other people’s colors of histories and how the intersection of that of that experience domestically, internationally, are connected to the same systems of oppression in, in that space.

I think what, what is also important is that once they were able to learn about their own culture and history, they inform their identity. They’re able to also learn about other people’s history, other people’s culture that inform their identities. So immediately there’s opportunity to, humanize each other And so that’s why this is so important that we must engage in the collective learning [00:20:00] process that allow us the opportunity for collective healing. And when the collective learning, collective healing is invested and engaged in racial solidarity, that’s how we can embark on this journey of collective liberation.

The ROOTS program is the first ever Asian American studies ethnic studies program in the history of the penal system, and then this continues on to today, right? since 2013.

Michelle MiJung Kim: That was Eddy Zheng. In 2017, Eddy founded the New Breath Foundation to help underserved frontline groups empower, heal, and change the lives of Asian, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander community members with a focus on the incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, and those who have been impacted by immigration and criminal legal [00:21:00] systems.

Let’s return to Roger and what stood out to him when he first started working in San Quentin.

Roger Viet Chung: I think when I first went into San Quentin State Prison in 2013, um, again, I mentioned I was born in 1978, and, um, you know, I looked across the room to people who were around my age, um, none of whom were actually born in the United States. And so I think there’s this really interesting question that needs to be pursued around Southeast Asians, Asian Americans that have immigrated at a young age, you know, largely through, the pathways of war that make that experience so much different than a, an experience like my own, right?

Born here in the United States, but also different than my parents, who immigrated to the United States as adults. And so the 1.5 generation as we will frame it today, we’re gonna be talking about Asian Americans, Southeast Asians, refugees, immigrants that came to the United States at a, a young age, you know, all the way up until their adolescence. We’re looking at a population that has had significant experience with [00:22:00] social institutions like schools, uh, elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools that their parents may not have.

This was a time in California where we began to see more prisons being built, more apparatuses designed to be able to figure out how to work with young people, mainly through the lens of punishment and deterrence.

And so I think the idea of coming into, a state like California during a political landscape where, punishment, prisons and tough on crime positions were being applied to both adults and young people is something to consider when we’re thinking about the 1.5 generation, um, that has been incarcerated.

I think that as the 1.5 generation immigrated into the United States you know, through various refugee and immigration policies, you know, they’re inheriting a context in California where they’ve already been criminalized and their pathways into, uh, juvenile halls, into county jails, and into state prisons are being mapped out, without them really even knowing.

In [00:23:00] ROOTS, um, which was an Asian Prisoner Support Committee sponsored program, everyone has an, a unique and individual story, but, you know, the more we learned about people’s stories, there just seemed to be a lot of collective threads that, tied everyone together. so if we were to talk about the 1.5 generation, you know, like a common collective journey would be something like this, right?

You know, whether a person escaped from Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos a lot of the common stories were, young people were born in Southeast Asia during or at the tail end of the wars in Southeast Asia, and most of them were not part of the original refugee exodus, which mainly featured, the elite and the educated.

And so one of the collective stories has been that a lot of the 1.5 generation, who would have otherwise left at much younger ages or even been born in the United States were experiencing significant transitions in countries that, were returning from civil [00:24:00] war. a lot of that destruction and a lot of the, the trauma and those experiences, right, began right around there.

And when people began thinking about, exiting, these positions, whether it be for political or, or class-based reasons or both, one of the collective stories that we tended to hear very often was that young people were really able to visualize, remember, right, even today, a lot of violence, a lot of trauma, that, you know, really propelled their, either their escape or, their emigration Young people met, went to camps oftentimes.

If they left Vietnam, they were in the Philippines, Malaysia, Hong Kong or Thailand. And if, you left Cambodia or you left Laos, you ended up in a variety of different forms of camps in Thailand awaiting for United Nations sponsorship. I think this is an important part of understanding the journey, because a lot of the one point five generation that became incarcerated were exposed to a variety of different traumas at [00:25:00] young ages that they still had kind of these vivid memories of.

And so as they, they left camps, you know, many stayed in camps for months, some even years. They were resettled into the United States, often in places that didn’t have a lot of Asian Americans. And so at the time, United States refugee policy really asked all the states to share, right, some sort of, right, burden in resettling refugees.

And so a lot of the one point five generation that we met inside San Quentin, you know, their story in the United States didn’t actually originate in California. Many of them were in Wisconsin or Ohio or Florida or Arkansas as their first stop into the United States before their parents did a secondary migration into a place that had more support, had a stronger ethnic community, um, and in some cases, right, just had, more protection against racial discrimination.

And so as parents, moved into ethnic communities and, and sought spaces that could protect themselves from racial [00:26:00] discrimination, the young students, right, the one point five generation didn’t have, those same protections. And so many of them were enrolled into public schools, oftentimes schools that were underfunded and oftentimes schools that, uh, were in districts that had young people of color competing for resources.

When it came to that, that 1.5 generation, that journey into United States schools, was, I think, the beginning of understanding how to survive in a place where, a unique form of racial discrimination, a unique form, right, of class identity had to be navigated as they began their journeys in education, a lot of them feeling a lot of pressure to be, strong students in order to, you know, deliver their parents out of poverty. A lot of themes came up. One of the approaches that we took in the ROOTS program was looking at trauma.

We’re not the first program to look at this, but I, I do think that it’s a very important and interesting way to think about, [00:27:00] understanding the stories of people who are incarcerated. You know, oftentimes the, the narrative of people who are incarcerated is that they have committed an act that has traumatized another person, and therefore, right, their own trauma is something that we often either don’t allow, ignore, or outright say, right?

“You don’t deserve your own trauma because of the things that landed you in custody.” And so I think one of the projects that we really wanted to look at was to help people kind of, like, name their trauma, explore it, and, right, heal from it. And so when we thought about, the activities and the curriculum design, you know, we had people kind of, share stories of immigration, share stories of how, their parents came to name them, stuff like that.

And, you know, one humongous theme that came out in the ROOTS program was this idea of self-hatred and how much being in, right, the United States and being in places where you experience discrimination and you experience poverty led to really, really low concepts of [00:28:00] self and, , really resulted in, people, literally writing, right, reflections, saying things like, “I hated myself.

I hated how I looked,” right? “I hated my name.” Those are some of the themes that kind of were fleshed out as we explored the ROOTS program. And we wanted to take a look at, How that trauma not only would h-help people kind of understand their own trajectories more, but how that trauma could also be translated into, right, a more institutional form of advocacy for themselves and understanding how to do things like describe and explain, right, and be introspective about the things in their youth that led to, right, their incarceration.

Because one of the things we also noticed was that people were struggling to tell stories about their families because they didn’t wanna bring shame, they didn’t want to blame their families. And so, a lot of our 1.5 generation folks struggled with being able to tell a story to a parole board that kind of held their freedom in their hands.

And so being [00:29:00] able to have people tell their stories, right, to engage, right, some of the things that they experienced as traumatic, help them heal from those things, but also name them, , through ethnic studies concepts, through, history and through culture, was in a lot of ways, very freeing.

I think I’d be remiss to not mention that, you know, when we did programming inside ROOTS, there was a very, very, I think collective agreed upon, workshop that people inside wanted to do, and it was a workshop about gangs. Not just the criminalization of gangs and how gangs have become criminalized into the ’90s, into the 2000s, but I think, incarcerated people, were really advocating around things like gang prevention. And so a lot of stories came out around, like, why people join gangs in the first place and, , it’s not a brand-new story at all, but it was something that they wanted to explore and they were really, I think, very adamant about exploring among themselves.

And, you know, I think if you talk to incarcerated people, one of the things that they’re so passionate about is [00:30:00] making sure their stories reach young people, which has also inspired me to go into juvenile hall to do a lot of work. But, one of the things that they wanted to develop, I think conceptually, was the idea of the migration to school-to-gang pipeline.

And, you know, whether or not the gang itself, should be conceptualized as, right, a protective, mechanism against racism, against bullying, against harassment, against exploitation. I mean, those are all things that we know, young people are looking for, as they join gangs, especially those that are immigrating from Southeast Asia or even, right, Latin America.

I think the folks inside were really, really adamant about making that connection and understanding that, not only their participation in gangs, but the criminalization of the gangs through that participation was one of the pathways that led them to places like juvenile hall, the California Youth Authority, the Division of Juvenile Justice.

I think the folks inside would, um, say that they need to be accountable to you know, the decisions that [00:31:00] they made and they wish that they were stronger about not making decisions to do things like join, criminal-based organizations. But, I think that there is a reality that, you know, there are a lot of social forces that, drove, that type of youth behavior.

And so, when we were in San Quentin, I think a lot of the folks were like, we need to improve this idea by, you know, understanding that, part of our journey has been, as 1.5 generation young people is , our responses to our trauma, our responses to racism, our responses to, disconnects between us and our families, particularly our parents, right, led us through a path, that was laden with policies that were designed to punish us.

You know, I think something that’s really important that that I would wanna mention is, you know, the apparatuses that were designed to control and to rehabilitate and to correct youth, those apparatuses have been abolished because they didn’t work.

And so when I think about the 1.5 generation that immigrated to the United States during a time of [00:32:00] heavy, heavy juvenile punishment, had they immigrated today, right, and, these systems not existing, you know, would they have done a significant time in state prison? You know, I don’t know.

Would they been criminally adjudicated as adults? I don’t know. And so I think that when we think about, you know, Asian Americans and Southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders that are coming to the United States at a very specific time, specifically those guys we worked with in ROOTS, you know, history was just not on their side, and that’s not something that individuals can control.

And so when we think about the situations that we’re put in, I reflect on my own life about, you know, looking at people that look like me that were the same age as me and, just weren’t born in the United States and had privileges like I did. You know, I think those are some of the things that, I would ask the community to reflect upon.

That, you know, we’re looking at, such a traumatic and punished time in California and U.S. history to really kind of take, a broader approach and to be able to, you know, deconstruct some of the things that have happened to help understand the lives of people who, you know, are in ICE detention today

Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:33:00] That was Roger Viet Chung, faculty in Laney College’s Department of Ethnic Studies and founder of Restoring Our Communities. This is APEX Express. We’ll return after a short break. [00:34:00]

NC (pseudonym): We were refugees. It was because of the, the war, the secret war in Laos, I guess.

Michelle MiJung Kim: This is NC. He grew up in California after his parents’ harrowing escape from war and persecution in Laos. He was incarcerated for 24 years as a result of a conviction when he was a young person. He earned parole last year in [00:35:00] 2025.

NC (pseudonym): You know, I don’t know for sure, but I’m just going off what people say and what they tell me is because- we were refugees, and we were hunted, and, so we fled, and crossed the river into Thailand.

And from Thailand we were, um, we were sent to the US. That’s it.

When my, when I came here, my dad says, ” Well, you gotta learn everything here, know the language and everything, because this is your country now.

You’re gonna live here.” So that’s, that’s what he told me.

Things were tough because my parents don’t know nothing about this country, so they don’t, You know, it’s help was very, I would say, I think the best word I can use is help was very narrow, because we had, like, an…

I had, like, an uncle who knew the language, and they would help my, dad and my mom. And then, um, my dad actually went to a vocational training school to learn how to do auto body, This was in when we were in, in Long Beach, but they [00:36:00] came over to, uh, Stockton to open up a, um, garage, you to fix cars and do auto body. Growing up it was just hard because, you know, we were, uh, always poor and we didn’t know how to adjust to the c- you know, the community.

America is, like, totally different, ’cause we go to school and then we read, write, speak English, and then we don’t, we don’t do none of that inside the house. So there’s kind of that culture clash where, you know, the parents wanna teach you something and then you go to school and you learn something else, and then you’re s- you struggle with your, um, you know, everyday life because, those are two different things

I was basically working while I was in prison, taking a lot of self-help classes and, um, earning certifications and trying to better myself, um, learning job skills. So when I, parole, I can, become a productive member of society. So while I was in, also incarcerated, I was taking college courses, to try to, attain a [00:37:00] AA degree.

So I was doing a lot of that stuff while I was in prison programming. My plan was… when I got out, as far as for work I would just like any job will do, just as long as I got work, any job will do.

But the goal was to continue my education, get my, uh, degree in, um, sociology, try to to open up a, a place and to be, um, LCSW certified, a licensed clinical social worker so I can help people, just like how, um, when I was, um, incarcerated, I was talking to, um, an LCSW so they can like, help you when you get back from this environment to the streets to help you adjust. First of all, it’s helping people, and a lot of people, when you come out and get out, there’s really nothing, like nobody’s… the way I see it is, like- I don’t see a lot of help, you know?

I don’t see a lot of help or any [00:38:00] help, in my community that I’m at. I figured that, you know what? More help or help is always good, and a lot of times people… While, while I was in, um, incarcerated, you know, incarceration does affect you, it, in a way, institutionalizes you and makes you think a certain way, act a certain way, be a certain way, and when you come out, you have to, like, try to adjust to, you know, the norms of, outside living.

When I was talking to my, um, social worker, she was giving me a lot of those pointers. So I was thinking, like, “Okay, you know what? This is something I could do.” I could help, you know, like, a youth who’s been incarcerated or young people coming out or anybody of any ages from anywhere that has, um, cultural issues, You know, like, if they’re coming from a different country and they’re, they’re coming to the US and they’re having, like, cultural issues. it’s just about transitioning from one place to another place.” when I paroled from prison and they told me that, I have a ICE hold, an immigration hold. And [00:39:00] then I wasn’t sure, like, what that was, if it’s happening or not. And then when they paroled me, uh, immigration came and picked me up and took me to a detention facility.

 ICE came and picked me up at the prison and, um, I went to a detention facility in Bakersfield called Mesa Verde

Michelle MiJung Kim: We’re gonna come back to NC and what he experienced at Mesa Verde on the next episode, and what happened after he was deported to Laos just four months ago. Right now, I want to introduce you to another community member, Pam. Pam also grew up in California. She was incarcerated for 16 years. Three years ago, she was detained by ICE and then deported to Cambodia

Pam (pseudonym): [00:40:00] So I’m gonna start it off when the day I find out that, um, I probably get deported in 2000… yeah, 2012. ICE came and see me, and they say, ” Well, we got you on record that, you know, you’re on a list that you’re gonna get deported when you parole.” So if I have any kind, like American citizen to prove that, you know, I can’t parole, and this and that.

I was like, “Okay.” I really didn’t pay attention. My mind was more like stuck. On that day, my mind was more like, “Wait, my attorney told me I’m not ever gonna get deported,” and it just, my mind is like wondering off, like, why is this happening now? So other than that, I started doing research. I just signed the paper.

I didn’t even hear exactly what they told me because I, my mind’s already like blow. So I just signed the paper. Didn’t even know what I’m signing, so I just signed the paper like so they can leave me alone. I just [00:41:00] need to process something on my own.

When I finally process, I start doing research and…

But before I start doing research, I call my parent up and told them, “What’s gonna happen?” And they, you know, and my parents tell me, “Just tell them you don’t have a family over there. There’s nobody over there that could support you, take care of you. You’ve been, uh, here in America all your life. There’s nobody.

Nobody. So why they came and… why did someone send it to you, send you over there, and since you already did your time?” So it’s some kinda- mixed feeling. It’s a lot of mixed feeling as I can see there’s a lot of hurt inside my family. I can see what they go through, and then I was like, “Okay, now just too much.”

So after I talk to my parent and then see how they feel about it, and I understand, and I do feel them, too.

And I do understand, and, um, ‘ cause I’ve never been really separate from my family that long until I got [00:42:00] locked up. So it’s harder difficulty than anything. I don’t even move away from my mom that far.

I live across the street. So it’s hard for me to see that, I’m really, like, can’t see my mom ever again. I started doing research for years and years and still, hoping that I could fight and why I’m in prison, but people keep on telling me, “You can’t fight your case until you get through, um, the ICE detainer, and that’s how you fight your case.”

And it’s like, eh, I need to find a… You know, I started doing more research on the law library about ICE and, you know, about deportation, everything about the law. I did all that, but it’s nothing that really helped me unless it’s something against my life. So and I did more research about, like anything They say the only way you could get away from it is, like, something affects your life, something that danger you. It’s like, it mean life or death. [00:43:00] But I even do research on that. They say if they stop the war in Cambodian… So it was hard. It was just a lot. It was just a lot of paperwork that I would have to go through and try to do the research and find out.

So I started talking to more about with my family about that, and then my dad say, “You know, I can see this is really stressing you out, and I can see that you’re looking through a lot of stuff that don’t help you to get out. But we still have hope that you’re gonna come home to us.”

Michelle MiJung Kim:  Every person who shared their story with us talked about the family members and friends who supported them through these traumatic experiences, those who have stood with them in the darkest of times. Those relationships are what keeps people going, and it’s no different for the person you’re about to hear from, T.

T served his time in prison many years ago. After he got out of prison, he led a [00:44:00] full life. He got married, became a father, and grew in his career as a superintendent of a welding business, including jobs for the US Navy. And then one day, everything changed.

T (pseudonym): You know, I, I’d been reporting, uh, as scheduled, to the, you know, the ICE agent e- every, you know, I start out once a month, once every three months, once every six months, once every year.

And I, I, I’ve been reporting perfectly how they want. And then one day, you know, I, I came home and I went look at, check my mail and, there’s a, a mail from them. So I opened the mail up and it tells me, the mail tells me they’re gonna detain me. They give me a date to be there, and they say they’re gonna detain me.

You know, I, and my, my heart just sank, you know. When I saw that letter- Mm … I’m like, “Oh my God.” And you know, I, I, it broke me down right there, standing over there by the mailbox. And then I told my wife and, , we [00:45:00] both, sat and, you know, did a little, a little crying.

And it’s just like depressed knowing that they can, uh, detain me, that scheduled date that they gave me, yeah, it, it, it was tough. It’s like a, a little… I think they gave us like a, a month or something. No, three weeks, half a month, something like that. it, it, it was tough ’cause I, I, me, me and my wife and my two daughter we, you know, we have family.

They, they okay, you know. yeah, I, I’ve checked in and, uh, they, they, they did detain me and, uh, of course my wife’s all crying and, you know, my daughter, my, both my daughters young at that time. They’re still young. They don’t know what, what happened, you know. They asked my wife, “Hey, where’s Dad?”

And you know, my, my wife didn’t tell them what happened yet because they didn’t, my wife didn’t want them to, you know, worry. So my wife just told them, “Oh, you know, uh, your dad went to work. Maybe he’ll be gone maybe a month or so.” She just don’t want them to feel bad.

But yeah, my wife went through some stuff and trying to figure things out while I was in the detention center. and uh, [00:46:00] yeah, I got interview and got deported. and my wife, she was struggling at that time. She didn’t work either because she’s the, you know, she stayed home as a housewife, take the kids to school and stuff like that.

Michelle MiJung Kim: T’s wife and daughter are now with him in Cambodia. He’s currently serving as a staff member at New Light Wellness in Phnom Penh providing mental health and healing services to other people and families who are deported and separated

T (pseudonym): Yes. To me it’s very important, to have someone to talk to ’cause when you’re deported, uh, you, you already broken. you feel like you’re a broken person, and, and sometime you don’t know who to talk to because you’re at a new, new place.

You don’t really know no one, you know? And, uh, it, it, it’s heartbreaking you trying to, uh, find someone to talk to. You, you feel like you’re alone.

But at New Light, [00:47:00] we provide all that. You need someone to talk to, here. We, we, here you could pick one of our team here to talk to. You can go to the facility that we have over there and just talk to someone and just relax over there and just, you know, we, we have, always have someone there to help, talk about anything you want, to guide to bring closure, that, that’s the thing, uh, about our team here.

We wanna make sure we have all that, everything Cause we understand, we understand, uh, being deported need someone to talk to, because that’s what I, I did when, uh, the first couple years when I got deported here and I, I was so stressed out, and I don’t know who to turn to, where to go.

Luckily, I found New Light, and I’m so glad, and I’m still with them now.

Deportation to me, I feel it is very cruel. It breaks families apart, and then it’ll change the life and future of, your children. You know, it, it… Deportation, it, it’s just a sad [00:48:00] word, it’s just a sad word. It, it’s just… It’s like pain. It’s a lot of pain, that word deportation.

It’s a lot of pain. I mean, I, I… It, it’s just… To me, it’s just a lot of pain. It is just getting ripped off from your family, and affect everyone. It affect, you know, your brother and sister, your cousin, your niece, your nephew. You know, that’s how, that’s how I, I sees it,

Roger Viet Chung: Yeah, I think it’s, um You know, I, I think it’s important to, understand that, um, you know, deportation, isn’t something that existed, since 1776, right?

Michelle MiJung Kim: That familiar voice is Roger, who you heard from earlier. Here’s what he thinks about previously incarcerated people getting deported despite having already served their time.

Roger Viet Chung: And so I think when we kinda think about the logics of a [00:49:00] person who is serving a sentence and is being released by even authorities around in the carceral state and determining that they’re not a threat to society, that they’re no longer harmful to society, that they’ve done their rehabilitation in order to continue to contribute to, right, the nation and to their families and their communities, I think we have a very contradictory message where, you know, you actually have, a, a carceral apparatus naming a person as no longer a harm to society, but then, right, being deported.

And so when we think about these stories and, you know, I remember talking to a life term prisoner who has children who were born in the United States. And, he’s going up to the parole board, and he has, an ICE hold. He has, you know, a mandatory deportation because of his conviction. He’s asking the questions to himself, you know, “What do I do? do I fight to be released from prison? If that’s the case, I might get taken to ICE custody right away and, [00:50:00] get my travel documents prepared to be deported. Or do I stay in prison so that my family can continue to see me in the United States, right?

And maybe, I don’t do the types of things that are gonna win me my freedom in front of a parole board.” And I think those are the types of contradictions in the stories that I think illuminate the contradictions and, right, like, the problems with the way that we approach, deportation today.

There’s, the idea of deportation, we often, I think because it’s related to law, oftentimes, right, you know, our communities, see that as an objective or neutral phenomenon, that’s always been that way. And so I think, when we try to get folks to kinda understand the ways that deportation and, you know, immigration policy, has been shaped, one of the things that I’ll ask students, I remember being inside San Quentin, and I, I ask this of my Laney students all the time, you know, I ask them, “When was Immigration and Customs Enforcement founded?”, “What year was like the birth of what we understand now as ICE?” And, [00:51:00] students will guess, they’ll guess, they’ll guess, and maybe they’ll look it up online, and they’ll say, ” Oh, Roger, it’s 2001.” Then I’ll ask people, “Who’s older, you or ICE?”

And most of the time, the people that I ask are older than ICE. And so I think one of the ways that we kind of approach this is, you know, by understanding that what’s happening now is a, a very new and contemporary phenomenon immigration in its most brutal form, right? Or deportation in its most brutal form.

And I ask people, right, you know, “What was ICE called before it was called ICE?” There was an, a, an organization that existed before. And, you know, people will struggle a little bit, and then, you know, I’ll say the initials, uh, INS. And then people will say, “What does that stand for?” INS stands for, uh, Immigration Naturalization Services.

And so you have this really significant institutional difference, just in the name itself around how a migrant is being treated and perceived. Right? On the one hand, right, you have enforcement through [00:52:00] ICE. But for the most part, right, immigration policy in the United States was not ICE. It was Naturalization Services, right?

It was about welcoming people to come to the United States, contribute, be taxpayers, right? And, become citizens, become naturalized. And so I think that’s one of the ways that we begin thinking about how to deconstruct the idea that deportation is just a matter of law, it’s a neutral idea, and that it’s always existed in the form that it has.

And, you know, we know that the law that really is driving Asian American deportation or a- and other immigrant-based deportation today is a law that was designed in 1996. And so- The way that we see, right, immigration today is really kind of like a parcel, a very small piece of immigration history and deportation history for that matter in the United States.

And I think that’s one way that I think helps people understand that you know, what we’re seeing now is, a phenomenon that doesn’t have to be what it is.

I’m lucky enough to be able to be [00:53:00] part of a post-secondary system that is, you know, one of the largest in the world and one of the most welcoming in the world.

I feel like part of my passion or my drive to keep going is I feel like there are some things that are still very much unexplored around this concept of re-entry. When I was in juvenile hall a couple of years ago, I met a young person who told me that he didn’t have a good relationship with his dad.

His dad wasn’t in his life. His dad has been in and out of prison and learned mostly about his dad through his sister, but began reconnecting with him a little bit. this young person had, a pretty significant conviction inside the juvenile hall which, like I mentioned earlier, which had it happened 10, 15 years ago, he would be in the California Youth Authority.

And, you know, he was telling me about his dad and, you know, there were so many things that felt like I knew him. He told me the job that his dad had, which was a very unique job [00:54:00] that is not very common. And I wrote who I thought his dad was on a piece of paper and I showed it to him and he said, “Yes, that’s my dad.”

And so his dad, came to Laney College, um, joined the machining program after years in prison and got you know, a living wage job, in the steel industry, was able to buy a home and he was able to put his daughter through graduate school. but he never mentioned a son to me. And I left the hall that day and, I called him walking to my car and I said, “Hey, like, um, I think I met your son.

I didn’t know you had one.” And he said, “Yeah, that’s still a shameful part of my life that I’m, still trying to figure out.” And so I, I think that there’s something that we’re missing still. I think, you know, when in San Quentin we talked about, intergenerational trauma and the trauma that you can inherit from your parents and your parents’ parents, and I think there’s something here where, you know, we, we can engage both generations at [00:55:00] once to really kind of figure out some of this healing.

I feel like there’s still something that, we as a team as a family and as a community are on the verge of understanding a little bit better and breaking those cycles.

Michelle MiJung Kim: I can’t stop thinking about what T said about the word deportation. It’s cruel. It’s a painful word. It’s a sad word that rips you off from your family. Many of our listeners are here because you believe a different world is possible, one that replaces isolation with kinship, trauma with repair, and loss with transformation.

You want a future full of families together and safe. That’s the kind of future we at My Family want, too. Each story we share is not only a reminder about the violent systems that harm so many communities, but it’s also a reminder of how much each of us is [00:56:00] needed in this fight for a more just and liberatory future.

There is so much pain and trauma in each person’s story, there’s also so much strength, resilience, and a steadfast belief in community and hope. I’m taking a deep breath as I reflect on these stories, and I invite you to do the same.

And if you’re impacted by mass deportation and detention, there are organizations and advocates who can help you, from mental health and wellness to legal help and family support. In Northern California, where we are based, we encourage you to reach out to the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, the Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants, and New Light Wellness.

You’ll [00:57:00] find links to these organizations in the show notes at kpfa.org/programs/APEX-express. The music in today’s program is by Cambodian Australian singer and songwriter Satiya. We’ll include links to his songs in the show notes, too.

We hope you’ll join us for episodes two and three of My Family, where we’ll deep dive into what happens when our family and neighbors are detained, and what happens when they are forced to move to a country they’ve never known. Thank you for joining, and we’ll see you next time on My Family.

I’m your host, Michelle Mijung Kim, and this podcast is brought to you by APEX Express and the Asian Prisoner Support Committee. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.

Have a great night.

[00:58:00] 

The post APEX Express – 8.20.26 – My Family Ep. 1 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Hosts Miko Lee & Guest Host Mia Nakano celebrate Bayanihan in Ballhalla. Bayanihan is a core Filipino cultural value of community unity, and Balhalla is the home arena of the Golden State Valkyries. Apex Express was invited to join Filipino Heritage Night at the Valkyries game. We speak with the community behind this cultural celebration. That includes Al Perez, artists Venazir Martinez and Kristian Kabuay, and coach Carolyn Sideco about the history of Philippines and basketball.

Links for more information:

More information on our guests:

Golden State Valkyries

Al Perez, President of the Filipino American Arts Exposition

Artist Venazir Martinez

DJ P-LO

Cultural Practitioner Kristian Kabuay

Carolyn Sideco Coaching Kapwa

Raquel Redondiez SOMA Pilpinas

Shows that Coach Sideco recommended to us:

Show Transcript:

[00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:01:13] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight is Bayanihan in Ballhalla. Bayanihan is a core Filipino cultural value of community unity, and Balhalla is the home arena of the Golden State Valkyries. Apex Express was invited to join Filipino Heritage Night at the Valkyries game. Tonight, please join me and my guest host, Mia Nakano, as we speak with the community behind this cultural celebration. That includes Al Perez, artists Venazir Martinez and Kristian Kabuay, and coach Carolyn Sideco about the history of Philippines and basketball. Join us. Today I have the honor of having my bestie with me who’s gonna co-host Welcome to Apex, Mia Nakano. 

[00:01:59] Mia Nakano: Hi, Miko. Thank you for having me. 

[00:02:01] Miko Lee: I was invited to a Valkyries game, and I said, “Oh, my gosh, I need somebody with me that can speak basketball.” And so I thought of you. 

[00:02:10] Mia Nakano: And here we are. And the Valkyries do put on a show. That’s one of the things that makes them so great. 

[00:02:15] Miko Lee: Yeah, it was super fun. It was Filipino Heritage Night, and so we got a chance to talk with the different artists that are there, what is the night about, what’s the cultural celebration. What were some of the things that stood out to you? 

[00:02:28] Mia Nakano: I think that it really got to the roots of, one, what a great sports city San Francisco and then just the broader Bay Area is, and two, the deep connections to the Filipino community that exists within the Bay Area. When you look at how historically the Warriors really came up and the fan shots from when they were at Oracle Arena, the huge fan base that was there initially was the Filipino community. To see that translate in a very different way as the Valkyries are coming up in the WNBA as this incredible team, second year, on their way to probably making the playoffs for the second year in a row, bringing that community back, particularly with all the connections of the artists, the activations, and even the food that they have in Chase Arena brings it full circle.

[00:03:26] Miko Lee: Having Natalie Nakase as the coach there is so powerful and important representation for Asian Americans as well. The other thing that stood out to me was I did not know there was this history of basketball in the Philippines, and then to talk to the different guests on our show tonight about what that history represents, where it comes from, the connection to colonization, and then also how it’s really developed into its own cultural phenomena in the Philippines.

[00:03:55] Mia Nakano: I played basketball- All throughout junior high and high school and was very immersed in it in Southern California, but I had no idea that basketball was the national sport of the Philippines. After we came back from the game, I did a little a bit of a deep dive, and it was really wonderful to see that it actually started in the Philippines as a women’s sport? And it was making sports more accessible to folks, and also very clearly connected to,, roots of colonization and religion. But to still have that anchor and connection there, and then this interesting juxtaposition where right now there has still never been a Filipina player in the WNBA. There are folks who people really thought were almost gonna make it. So there’s still that one last phase that they need to break into this sport that is their national sport, but in the United States they’re not quite there yet in terms of representation. 

[00:04:55] Miko Lee: And talking with Coach Caroline, which people can hear later in the episode, about that history and how it was intended to be this women’s sport in the Philippines because it was easier. They thought they’d give it to the women to play. But the men were watching going like, “Oh, this looks fun. This looks more fun than baseball. So it really just took off. I love that transition for that it went and across the country. A few of our guests talked about tenement basketball courts. It’s just so wildly different from this country. 

[00:05:25] Mia Nakano: I think that that is contextually just how sports are played in a lot of different countries in the world where they don’t have access. When you think about people playing football, right, like soccer, in different areas where they are playing barefoot. They are playing in dirt or, like, fields that are not necessarily fields. I think that in the context of playing basketball differently in the Philippines versus the United States or even in European leagues, when the United States goes to play in the Olympics, even though you have the USA women’s team, USA men’s teams who are supposed to be the best of the best in the world, the way that the game is played at that particular level and arena is quite different.

And so they all have to adjust to the physicality, to how calls are called just slightly differently. With smaller players in the WNBA what I find really incredible, and this is what Carolyn talks about a little bit, is like the layup packages? When you get close to the rim, you don’t have a Filipino who just goes up and makes a regular layup. They do it with flair, right? There’s a part of that maybe is a little bit of showmanship, but also it’s a part of trying to sneak your way around bigger players so that you can get the basket. And anybody that you play against, even in a league that is familiar to you, you’re gonna have to change your game up, and play to your strength, and also just know what you can’t do in the game, and go to another person who has more of those strengths 

[00:07:03] Miko Lee: One of the other things that stood out to me in talking with one of the artists, Christian, who was there in the outside, in the cultural area, and he was doing, pre-Filipino writing with folks, and we’ll interview him later in the episode. He was saying how he does this activity at a lot of different games, but it was very different. That was the first time at the Valkyries, and he said the crowd was so different, that it felt like back in the day. It felt like community. There weren’t tech bros. You feel like it, The audience was way more women, As someone that goes to Warriors’ and Valkyries’ games, do you notice a difference in the audience? 

[00:07:41] Mia Nakano: The first Valkyries game that I had the opportunity to go to last year was their Pride Night, and that is the game that my wife and I always go to for the Warriors. It’s a special feeling there. I noticed there was a whole parking lot area for strollers on different levels. There was such great energy, and people just talking about the game, people cheering or rooting for players on the other team. There was not a lot of negative energy going around. When Christian mentions, the tech bro energy, the people rolling around with Patagonia shirts, and sweatshirts, that is so true. You truly feel this family environment that’s also very queer friendly. There’s so many folks of color, and they’re not just there because the team’s winning, because last year we didn’t know if the team was gonna win or not. They were just showing up. The Valkyries have really created such a strong culture that is team based. That’s what you see with the Valkyries, but I also think that that’s a testament to the coach, to the players, who really trust in one another, and to the community that we have in the Bay Area. I think even the players did not understand when they came here what they were stepping into, and they talk about talking to other players on opposing teams who are like, “Is it always like this? Is it every night?” They’re like, “Every single night, this is how our fans are, and we love it.” 

[00:09:14] Miko Lee: So it’s in different WNBA hometowns it’s not like that?

[00:09:18] Mia Nakano: Absolutely not. The Valkyries have sold out every single game from day one. They are the first WNBA team, and I think the first women’s professional sports team, to reach $100 billion in valuation. then you see other teams, like the Atlantic Dream, who are playing in arenas of 3,500, or the Dallas Wings, who are playing in much smaller arenas, even though they have all these franchise players like Angel Reese and Paige Bueckers and AZ Fudd. The Dallas Wings are actually moving to the same arena that the Mavericks are gonna play in next year. It’s an interesting juxtaposition given where the context of our world is at, who’s in office right now, the battles that we’re having to fight to keep women’s rights, queer rights, trans rights in the forefront and not have them stripped away. Yet on the other side of this, we have this huge, meteoric rise of women’s sports, and it’s not just basketball. It’s baseball. It’s hockey. It’s all these different leagues that are starting to emerge and have huge fan bases where you can watch women’s professional sports all year round. They’re nationally televised games.

[00:10:31] Miko Lee: Thank you for the history lesson and current events of women’s sports. I love it. One of the other things that was really special for this Filipino heritage night was the halftime show where they had DJ P-Lo playing. And then they brought onto the court, the director of SOMA Pilipinas, Raquel Redondiez, and she runs San Francisco’s Filipino Cultural Heritage District. She got her name on a Valkyries jersey, and was announced in the halftime moment as a big show.

[00:11:05] Mia Nakano: I had a conversation with her said, ” the work that you are doing, particularly in this moment, bringing together the artists, the culture of Filipinos and Filipino history is so critical right now because so many of our communities, cultures, and stories are getting erased, that we are the culture bearers and culture keepers, and so thank you for doing that work.”

[00:11:31] Miko Lee: SOMA Pilipinas, for those that don’t know, was established as a Filipino cultural heritage district in 2016 and was one of the first in the state designated as an arts district by California Arts Council in 2017. So they do so much great work, they host great things from the, United States of Asian America Festival every year. Self-defense workshops for women. I’ve taken those in Kapwa Gardens that were amazing. They do mental health services for Filipino folks and provided groceries and COVID education and, Filipino language training, and then artists, as you were saying. They pulled together all these different folks, for this wonderful night to introduce a sense of heritage and a sense of pride that was really powerful.

[00:12:19] Mia Nakano: , It’s a really lovely connection back to the Filipinos banding together with Chinese American folks in Chinatown that really helped create the broader Asian American movement and what that word and power even means.

[00:12:38] Miko Lee: From the I-Hotel to today

[00:12:40] Mia Nakano: exactly, and all of that being really anchored and rooted in San Francisco, as well as everything that Larry Itliong did with union organizing that I think has just recently started to get recognized in the broader social justice movement. 

[00:12:58] Miko Lee: I’ll put links to past shows that we’ve done on the I-Hotel, on Larry Itliong, because folks, if they don’t know about either of those movement le- leaders and huge moments in our Asian American history, they should. It’s powerful part of our labor and housing rights history. Were there other things that stood out to you at this Valkyries game?

[00:13:20] Mia Nakano: I know that this is probably not gonna be a surprise to you, but the fact that we honestly just got to go behind the scenes and see the inner workings of what the Valkyries, the tunnels and getting lost and trying to figure out where we’re going.

[00:13:34] Miko Lee: It was a maze down there, by the way. It was like, which direction? Go to this press room. No, this press room. This place. It was very much kind of, in theater-wise, it’s like going backstage and seeing how the tech is done. 

[00:13:46] Mia Nakano: The thing that was the most exciting about this unique experience was being able to see Natalie Nakase talk after the game, and the snippet in here is really incredible because it shed light into not just who she is as a coach and how she approached the game, but her investment in people, and the importance of seeing people for their full selves, and the importance of the whole WNBA as a league, as a business. They have a lot of money and power, so who are we gonna lift up? It’s a always a very intentional choice of what is happening at Chase Arena, at the Valkyries nights, these heritage nights that really uplift so many wonderful communities that are doing incredible work. 

[00:14:36] Miko Lee: We’re gonna get a chance to do an interview with Coach Natalie in a different episode, so stay tuned for that. Is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience? 

[00:14:45] Mia Nakano: Go see a Valkyries game. Go to Balhalla. It will change your life. 

[00:14:50] Miko Lee: Experience Balhalla. Okay. Thank you for joining me, and hopefully you’ll join me back when we do an interview with Coach Natalie too. 

[00:14:59] Mia Nakano: Oh, absolutely. 

[00:15:00] Miko Lee: To frame the conversation, we start with Valkyries coach Natalie Nakase, the first Asian American woman to coach a WNBA team. Last year, she was named WNBA Coach of the Year, and at the post-game presser, a reporter asked her, “Tonight is Filipino National Heritage Night, so can you talk a little bit about what it means for fans to be seen around the league?” This is her response.

[00:15:25] Natalie Nakase: Yeah. It’s huge. I love the fact that we can celebrate and acknowledge different cultures. I’m really big on that. I think it gives people almost like a superpower or a confidence for, you know, the day to be recognized like that and to be celebrated for everything that their, their culture brings. it also, I think, educates people about different cultures. And so I love the fact that we’re super intentional about that because I think we have to do that more than not. And, it’s exciting. I think this world needs more celebration. I think this world needs more love, more care, especially when some people are not seen as much.

[00:16:01] Miko Lee: In the very loud outdoor Chase Arena area, we spoke with several of the folks involved in Filipino Heritage Night at the Valkyries. Please note that the sound quality is due to the nature of being outside a really excited fan base at the game. First off, listen in as we hear from Al Perez, who helped to curate this community celebration.

[00:16:23] Al Perez: Hello, my name is Al Perez. I am a community organizer. I’m serving as president of a nonprofit called the Filipino American Arts Exposition, and we partnered with the Valkyries to help curate their cultural activation for Filipino Heritage Night tonight.

[00:16:41] Miko Lee: Since the Valkyries are named after women warriors, is there a Filipina version of a woman warrior?

[00:16:48] Al Perez: Absolutely. We have one that’s local. Her name is Victoria Manalo Draves. She was the first American woman to win two Olympic golds in the Olympics in nine- 1928. She happens to be Filipina-American. So yeah, she was born and raised here in, in San Francisco Bay Area, so we’re very proud of her to be, to represent us and be the warrior and an inspiration for all of us. 

[00:17:11] Miko Lee: Excellent. And since Valhalla or Valhalla is the space that we want to get to, what is the Filipino version of that place you want to see?

[00:17:19] Al Perez: Wow.

[00:17:20] Miko Lee: That perfect world you wanna get to.

[00:17:21] Al Perez: I think for us, we have this tradition called bayanihan. That’s when we help each other towards a common goal. Yes. No matter how Herculean that task is, it’s just coming together to help each other. So it’s not necessarily a destination. It’s more like an attitude of, coming together as a community towards a common goal, towards a cultural pride and community empowerment.

[00:17:46] Miko Lee: Great. And tell us what you’re doing here today with all these groups.

[00:17:47] Al Perez: So we have an outreach table here because we’re part of the organizing committee to curate tonight’s event. So we actually have an event next weekend called the Pistahan Parade and Festival. It’s the largest Filipino cultural celebration in the country, happening August 8th and 9th at the Yerba Buena Gardens, so please come check us out. There’s a big parade down Market Street on Saturday to kick off the festival weekend, and then the festival’s at the Yerba Buena Gardens, 11 to 5. We’re here to promote that event as well as all our other upcoming events in the fall. We’re also curating the Filipino Heritage Night with the Golden State Warriors, with the Giants, San Jose Sharks, and San Jose Earthquakes. And then one more. October is Filipino American History Month in the country. So we also produce official celebration proclamation by the mayor at City Hall. So we have a reception, we have entertainment, and we light the City Hall building with Philippine flag colors. 

[00:18:42] Miko Lee: And when folks are coming out to these Filipino nights, what should they expect? What’s happening? 

[00:18:47] Al Perez: Our goal is to be here to be in community, to help showcase our beautiful culture, our traditions. So when these events happen, we usually have, cultural performances, either a pre-game or a halftime. Tonight you’re gonna see, P-Lo, a Filipino rapper and a hip hop singer. Here in the plaza we have some basketball hoops, because basketball is a big thing in the Philippines, our national sport. There’s also, Sarap Shop is a concession inside. They have Filipino food there. Our goal is to get people a little taste of our Filipino culture, so hopefully they’ll be inspired to, to learn more about our community and our culture.

[00:19:29] Miko Lee: And what’s your dream for the game tonight? 

[00:19:31] Al Perez: Of course, to win, right? Number, yeah, number one, Valkyries to win. And also, I hope that people will come and learn about our culture, and to appreciate it more. Maybe it will inspire them to try some Filipino food, or even come to our Pistahan Festival next weekend. Also Señor Sisig is right here in the plaza. They also do fusion Filipino food. I’m hoping that, by being here, people can get to be a little bit more familiar and curious about Filipino culture and community. We have such a, vibrant and diverse culture, we love to be in community. Our food’s delicious, and entertainment’s fantastic. So come check us out wherever and whenever you can. 

[00:20:14] Mia Nakano: I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about the artists who are here and the community organizations that are here tonight.

 [00:20:19] Al Perez: So there’s several of us nonprofit organizations here. Our group’s the Filipino American Arts Exposition, our mission is more about broadening awareness and deepening understanding of Filipino culture and traditions by doing these cultural events. There’s another group here called Young Filipino Professionals Association, or YFPA. They’re more about, , uplifting young entrepreneurs, young career-minded, individuals to help them on their path to being more successful. There’s also SoMa Pilipinas Cultural District is here. That’s a new, relatively new, neighborhood in San Francisco. You know, there’s Chinatown, there’s Japantown, there’s North Beach, so now we also have a Filipino community. It’s called SoMa Pilipinas, they’re also celebrating their 10th anniversary this year as being, designated as a cultural district. There’s also Venazir is a visual artist. She’s doing live art mural here inspired by Filipino culture and the intersection of culture and basketball. So it’s a great way for people to kind of learn about our fine arts, our visual arts, and our he- heritage. Kristian Cabuay is doing script writing of traditional pre-colonial Philippine script. You know, Chinese and Japanese have their own script writing. The Phi- Filipino community also did before we were colonized by Spain. It’s kind of almost forgotten and almost wiped out, so there’s a few people now that’s trying to revive that, that old tradition of writing .. It’s called Baybayin. 

[00:21:42] Mia Nakano: Can you talk a little bit about the history or why basketball is the national sport of the Philippines?

[00:21:48] Al Perez: Yeah. It’s interesting. Yeah, why is basketball the national sport? I’m not sure exactly, but I think it has to do when after the Philippines was colonized by Spain, and then it, the country became, a commonwealth of the United States, right? And during that time, a lot of Americans came to the Philippines, to establish educational institutions, and one of them is sports. It just got introduced to us, and somehow it clicked. Everybody loves basketball. No matter where you are in the Philippines, in every little barrio, every little town, there’s always a game happening

[00:22:21] Miko Lee: So are people playing in school, like they start in elementary school, or is it more community based? 

[00:22:26] Al Perez: I think it’s both. It’s just kinda grow, ingrown when you’re just a kid growing up in your community. There’s always basketball around you, surrounded by basketball. And then of course in more, elementary, high school, it became more teams dynamic, and you got competitions , intramural games. Even between little neighborhoods and little towns, they also have competitions. It’s really a big deal. In fact, they love NBA. All the American basketball players are so popular. Everybody knows who they are.

[00:22:54] Miko Lee: Al mentioned artist Venazir Martinez, and we pulled her away from the beautiful mural she was creating to talk with us. Again, this is outside, so the sound is quite loud. Venazir is a muralist and a visual anthropreneur. She weaves a tapestry of narratives that explore the connections between human traditions and the ever-changing landscapes that shape them. Listen as she tells us about her work and how she utilizes a symbolic red thread

[00:23:25] Venazir Martinez: I’m Venazir Martinez. I am a muralist and a visual entrepreneur, and I am invited to create a live painting for the Golden State Valkyries.

[00:23:36] Miko Lee: What has inspired you to create this work of art?

[00:23:39] Venazir Martinez: So first and foremost, of course, women empowerment, and we have a lot of very talented Filipino Americans who play basketball. In the Philippines, because I grew up in the Philippines, basketball is such a huge deal. Everywhere in the most promote areas in the Philippines, basketball is their way of enjoying themselves and just pretty much having a time of their life. Basketball tenements are everywhere in the most remote areas in the Philippines. There’s this concept of Filipino resiliency that I wanted to incorporate in my work, there are basketball hoops that is made out of wood scraps and like discarded metals. I wanted to highlight that part of Philippine ingenuity. That’s why I’m here is to just shed light on that beautiful concept of Filipino ingenuity that we have. 

[00:24:40] Miko Lee: I love that. Thank you for sharing. Can you break down what a basketball tenement is? 

[00:24:44] Venazir Martinez: Oh, basketball tenement. So tenement courts, these are,.. How do I say this? In America, there’s basketball courts that is, like, roofed. Okay. With a roof, and- 

[00:24:54] Miko Lee: Like in a gymnasium. 

[00:24:56] Venazir Martinez: In a gymnasium, yes. But in the Philippines, anywhere can be a basketball tenement court. They’ll just put up a basketball hoop in a pole, like an electricity pole, and they can already play basketball in that area.

[00:25:12] Miko Lee: So their court’s just made up anywhere. Yeah. Anywhere in the community. 

[00:25:14] Venazir Martinez: Anywhere in the community, in the most remote areas in the Philippines, they do that all the time. I grew up in the Philippines, so, it’s that really is an immersive experience of having to see basketball really change lives for young people in our community.

[00:25:32] Miko Lee: So we’re at a WNBA game, and I’m wondering if there was a woman basketball player that you looked up to when you were growing up. 

[00:25:39] Venazir Martinez: Growing up, my dad plays basketball. That’s the only experience I know that, remembering what basketball is like. ‘Cause I’m mostly in martial arts. But here I am trying to experience a different, like, more empowering way of sports. And it’s when I came to America that I experienced this kind of really, it’s kind of empowering. 

[00:26:01] Miko Lee: And since the Valkyries are women warriors, is there a Filipina equivalent of the woman warrior? Is there a Filipina equivalent of a woman warrior?

[00:26:01] Venazir Martinez: There’s a lot. There’s a lot of very empowering Filipina. First and foremost, it’s the Filipina community leaders that I know of in the Bay Area. They are my women warriors. They helped me from the ground up. They created a home for me. They, you know, so they welcomed me. The filipina community in the Bay Area welcomed me. They’re all women. 

[00:26:31] Miko Lee: Who would you say are some of those folks, some of those women? 

[00:26:34] Venazir Martinez: Sonia Villarin, she wears so many hats. She’s president of Filipina Food Movement, founder of summer camp in the University of the Philippines Alumni Association in San Francisco. She was the, senior vice president for Bank of America Global Leasing, and she welcomed her home to me and, pretty much, helped me establish my life here as an artist. So those are my women warriors.

[00:27:00] Miko Lee: And when people see your beautiful work, what do you want them to walk away with feeling?

[00:27:05] Venazir Martinez: I want them to take a second look again in my work, because these, my work pretty much talks about Filipino immigrants, and immigration at large, and pretty much our contributions and the harvested hopes that we have contributed in this cultural landscape, 

[00:27:28] Miko Lee: this show is a pop-up tonight, so where can folks find out more about your work or see your work in the community?

[00:27:34] Venazir Martinez: I have a huge, huge mural, 2,500 square feet mural in 5th and Folsom in San Francisco, downtown San Francisco in SoMa. It’s called Ani, meaning to harvest. There’s one in downtown Santa Cruz. There is one in Yuba City. There are multiple murals in Michigan, in New York, mostly in Queens. It’s pretty much everywhere, but if you follow the red thread, which is my signature, my artist signature, you’ll know that it’s my work. 

[00:28:08] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. Thank you so very much. Appreciate you taking the time. Another artist presenting their work was Kristian Kabuay working on pre-Philippines calligraphy. His line was so long that we ended up interviewing him separately. Christian is an artist, entrepreneur, futurist who specializes in endangered writing systems and tattoos from the Philippines. Hello, and welcome to Apex Express. Can you tell me your name, your background and what you were doing at the Valkyries Filipino Heritage Night?

[00:28:40] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. My name is Kristian Kabuay. I’m a cultural practitioner specializing in our old, uh, pre-colonial, I say pre-Philippine, writing system and tattooing traditions. I was at the Valkyries, Filipino Heritage Night to interact with the community. I’ve done a lot of work with the Warriors, you know, going back to Oracle for these cultural nights, the Giants, as well. So most of the teams in the Bay Area, but it was my first time with the Valkyries, and it was quite different.

[00:29:16] Miko Lee: How was it different? 

[00:29:17] Kristian Kabuay: The vibe was, um… I’m telling everybody that it was my first Valkyries game, too. So the vibe was different. It reminds me of the old Oracle, it wasn’t full of, like, tech money that are, you know, Patagonia vests watching the game. It felt very homegrown and it just brought me back to those days in old Oakland A’s and when the Warriors were in Oracle.

[00:29:42] Miko Lee: What does that evoke for you? What is that feeling like? 

[00:29:46] Kristian Kabuay: It gives me a stronger sense of community and the audience is different. The demographics is different. There isn’t that toxic male energy. I don’t have to worry about someone being drunk and going off and, it was very homey and welcoming. It brings back, as a kid, when I used to watch A’s games in the bleachers, watching at Oracle, the community, and not everyone was there to be seen. They were really there for the team. 

[00:30:15] Miko Lee: Oh, I love that. I actually do feel like it is, it’s such a we’re together community vibe.

[00:30:20] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. They even had the wave. I know some snooty teams, they don’t have the wave, so- 

[00:30:26] Miko Lee: That wave went on for a long time, too. 

[00:30:29] Kristian Kabuay: Exactly. I’ve been to a lot of games. They’re, “Oh, I don’t wanna look stupid,” or whatever? So that’s a big part of my childhood. 

[00:30:36] Miko Lee: So I was gonna try and talk with you at the game like I did the other artists, but you had a huge line waiting to see you and talk to you. Talk with me a little bit more about your art form and this pre-clo colonization form of writing. 

[00:30:52] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. Most civilizations had a writing system. It was prior to the land alphabet when the Spanish came and colonized the Philippines in the 1500s. We have this writing. There’s only one ethnolinguistic group left in the Philippines that writes it. I come from a background of calligraphy, graffiti and abstract art. When I started to practice it, I incorporated those things. Later I found that I had to become an educator. Then starting to do the cultural festivals. Then you make your parents proud. It wasn’t until I started to interact with the community that, there was this responsibility. I didn’t come from a highly academic background, but I was being invited to Stanford and Berkeley to give talks about this. So, you know, that imposter syndrome kicked in. Because of the efforts that I’ve started in, 2010s, the idea of education around this specific writing system, my service isn’t really needed. It’s out there. Wikipedia, even AI can do it now, and there’s a lot of influencers on TikTok that are, building on the stuff that I did 10 years ago. It goes in line with my idea of putting myself out of business. ‘Cause if it’s a cultural practice, then you shouldn’t be this gatekeeper, this apex of this this knowledge or this practice. It needs to be spread 

[00:32:15] Miko Lee: What is the writing system called? 

[00:32:17] Kristian Kabuay: A couple names. One of the popular names is Baybayin, and that literally means to spell. It’s an adverb, but then it became a noun. So there’s many different names depending on the languages in the Philippines. 

[00:32:30] Miko Lee: And you said that there’s a village of folks that still utilize it. Have you been there? 

[00:32:34] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, I was there in 2016 with a research trip. I stayed with them for a few days to learn, a bit about more about the culture and to donate some time and volunteer, ’cause there’s the Mangyan Heritage Foundation. I did some technology work with them. But then also meet with the elders that were there. The village elder did an interview for a film project that I’m doing, but also met the heirs, the daughters in the family that ultimately inherited this practice.

[00:33:02] Miko Lee: And so they know that you’re teaching this cultural practice around the world, and what is their opinion of that? What do they think? 

[00:33:09] Kristian Kabuay: They like it, because it’s a different perspective, and a lot of questions. When I go home they go, “Oh, why are you interested in this?” It’s a totally different perspective. ‘Cause out here, we have our identity, and the diaspora issues. But back home, because of circumstances, colonization, et cetera, then, the priority is to eat, to live, not to preserve these cultural practices. I’ve had some indigenous elders tell me that when People come over there, to do their dissertation and they need to figure out their paper to get their PhD. They ask them, “What are you doing to preserve this?” It’s kind of extractive or, like, information gathering. Honestly, it really is you strip it down, it is, survival: food, clothing, and shelter. 

[00:33:52] Miko Lee: When people were standing in line for you at the actual Valkyrie’s game, what were they asking you to write? Were they asking you to write notes or their name, or what was the request? 

[00:34:03] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. Yeah, the line… I was telling people I’ve never had a line that long when I’ve done the Warriors. So- … you know, it’s kind of different. 

[00:34:10] Miko Lee: That’s interesting. Just saying

[00:34:11] Kristian Kabuay: Yes. I was writing mainly people’s names- Mm um, and some words. Maybe a, a good third were non-Filipino, some were there just curious and asking and cultural sharing. Someone knows a Filipino and they go, “Oh, can you write mahal kita?” Like, I love you. And so, we pick up things, just here in the Bay Area. I have conversations with people wanna hear a family name that I never heard about. I say, “Whoa, where’s your family from?” Kids learn the stories on how they combine names and some of the origins. It’s always interesting when I do this with folks.

[00:34:44] Miko Lee: I love that. And you’re also a tattoo artist. Do you use some of this writing in your tattoo artistry? 

[00:34:51] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, I do. And that’s where the separation between the art and the cultural practice is. Where the writing wasn’t tattooed traditionally, but that’s where I kind of balance the art. And I separate those two where art is my expression, my personal expression on paper or maybe even on a body, but a cultural practice is more about them and their lineage. So I have to be clear to make those two distinctions. 

[00:35:20] Miko Lee: So a question I’ve asked all the different people that have been involved in this night is that the Valkyries are based on women warriors, and I wonder if there’s a Filipina woman warrior that comes to mind to you?

[00:35:32] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, there is. There’s one that, part of the lore. Where my dad’s from, in his area called Pangasinan, the land of the salt. There’s a princess warrior named Princess Urduja that was thought of as a great warrior. This specific Princess Urduja has that Valkyrie’s spirit. All the artwork that you see and Academics will say, “Oh, it’s you’re romanticizing,” and things like that. But you know what? We need a little romance in our lives, right? And romance leads to action. 

[00:36:03] Miko Lee: Ah, we certainly do. I’m wondering, with all those people, the long line that stood waiting for you, and you’re having these conversations, what would you like them to walk away with after interacting with you? 

[00:36:14] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. That’s why there was a sign, and I took a picture of it. It doesn’t say, Philippine writing. So it says pre-Philippine calligraphy. I made that term up in 2007 as a way to jolt someone’s idea of what pre-Hispanic, pre-colonial is. ‘Cause those things kinda just fly overhead. But if I said pre-Philippines, people, they take a step back and they, “What’s that mean?” Or they try to have a smart comeback, “Well, what were we before then?” And my question’s always then, “Well, I don’t know. Let’s talk about it.” That gray area, that being uncomfortable, leads to more curiosity, and ultimately, that’s what I want folks to go ahead and, you know… oh, I have this banana leaf. I ran out of index cards. I brought 100 of them. I had these banana leaves that I just meant to decorate the table. I said, “You know what? Let me write on these banana leaves like how our ancestors did.” People are asking, “Oh, what, we wrote on banana leaves?” I’m all, “Yeah, we wrote on, organic materials.” So this thing is probably gonna wilt away in a few weeks or a month or so, but that’s how it is. So it’s a metaphor for our physical selves, but then also, the message. Maybe they can go ahead and learn how to write it themselves or until we reconnect again.

[00:37:31] Miko Lee: Hmm. That’s beautiful. And how can our audience find out more about you and your work? 

[00:37:36] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, you can just search for me online. My last name’s K-A-B-U-A-Y. First name’s Kristian, both with a K. All over the internets and the socials, pretty easy to find. 

[00:37:46] Miko Lee: Thank you. And we’ll put links to your website in our show notes, so thank you so much for chatting with me today.

[00:37:52] Kristian Kabuay: Thanks, Miko

[00:37:54] Miko Lee: I honestly didn’t know that basketball was such a revered sport in the Philippines. So wanting to find out more, I reached out to a bunch of community folks, and multiple people said, “Reach out to Coach Carolyn Sudeco. She’s the one. She’s in the know.” So talking to me from her vacation spot halfway around the world is Coaching Kapwa’s Carolyn Sudeco. Welcome, Carolyn Sideco, to Apex Express. I’m so happy to have you here. 

[00:38:19] Carolyn Sideco: Thank you for having me. 

[00:38:21] Miko Lee: Can you first start by telling me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:38:27] Carolyn Sideco: Oh my gosh, my people are, collectively, folks who identify as, Philippinics, Filipina, Filipino, and American, and, migratory, and those who claim blood relation and those who I’m still looking for. I live in San Francisco, California, Ohlone land, and also in the land of Choctaw Bulbancha, which is New Orleans, Louisiana. Those are the two places I reside. 

[00:39:04] Miko Lee: Can you share about your work with Coaching Kapwa? 

[00:39:08] Carolyn Sideco: Coaching Kapwa is what I love to do, and my background professionally is as a certified athletic administrator. I’m a physical educator at the high school level by profession, by certification, by training. But really what I love to do, and so what I do in my consultancy, is I explore and I examine and I think about and learn about everything related to sports cultures and how the culture of sports in all its various ways affect our societies. Specifically, I geek out over learning about my own Filipino American histories and other peoples. Learning that through the concept or the constructs of culture and how sports really is, for me, the funnest way to investigate who I am and who we are to each other. I call myself a sports relationship coach. I am a sports cultures consultant. I also like to identify as a sports liberator.

[00:40:16] Miko Lee: Ooh, can you break down what a sports liberator is?

[00:40:20] Carolyn Sideco: Miko, I took that from a friend of mine, Danya Cabello, also from the East Bay. Played at Cal, played professionally, and when I first met her years ago, she identified as such, and I said, “That is exactly the kind of person that I wanna be, like, in sports.” I wanted sports to be a way that I could share with people who we are to one another. I wanted to teach young people that they can express themselves in a way that helps make them feel free. With my background in sports administration, I was feeling like the sports industrial complex was really the antithesis of that. And what a lot of people in my profession were striving for was this success that was not defined in the same way that I was defining what my liberation was, and what I felt through sports. So I adopted that. I asked Dania, “Can I call myself a sports liberator too?” And she said, “Girl, you call yourself whatever you want.” So that’s what I go by. 

[00:41:37] Miko Lee: Ooh, thank you for sharing. That’s so interesting in the midst of our kind of capitalization of sports, how corporate it has become. Interesting. Thanks. I also wanted to thank you for sharing with me, Rafe Bartholomew’s Hoop Nation and Cassidy Hubbard’s, Hoop’s Paradise. So those, along with your YouTubes, really gave me a grounding in the connection to between basketball and the Philippines. I’ll put a link to those in the show notes for other people that like to do deep dives like me. But can you just give our audience a sense of why basketball is so popular in the Philippines? 

[00:42:10] Carolyn Sideco: I learned about the history of basketball and Filipino culture in the Philippines through various people, Rafe Bartholomew one of them, and his book Pacific Rims. A friend of mine here in the San Francisco Bay Area, Kevin Santos, was doing his master’s thesis on the history of basketball in the Philippines, and putting an ethnic studies frame on it, so he was the one who actually, practiced his thesis and presentation with me, and I learned a lot through him, and through other people as I was learning about this myself, and how basketball when it was initially, or as we, the modern game of basketball was invented, by Dr. Naismith in Massachusetts with the peach tree basket. Most of us are familiar with that history, but also that was around the time of the Philippine-American War, and US colonization was at its beginning. And so what did the United States export, was its culture, and a lot of that was through sports, mainly baseball, ’cause baseball was already the national pastime. Basketball was relatively new, and basketball was taught in the Philippines also, like in conjunction with the American education system by teachers, by the Thomasites, and by others who were using that form of colonization. They gave basketball to the women and the girls, because it was the lesser sport. It was the newer sport, so it was the lesser sport. They gave it to the women. The men were supposed to play baseball. The Philippines is a collective society- Baseball is a spread out sport, and people aren’t close to one another. You’re out on a field, it’s hella hot, and it’s boring.

[00:44:17] Miko Lee: Agree. Totally agree … 

[00:44:19] Carolyn Sideco: it’s easy, to make this assumption that these people playing baseball were watching the girls and women play basketball, and it’s faster. Close to one another. It’s easy to make a space. So they started playing basketball. 

[00:44:39] Miko Lee: Also, you don’t need all the things. You need a ball.

[00:44:41] Carolyn Sideco: Exactly. In the early days, you didn’t even need shoes. Yeah. So it took off in that way because basketball already itself was an activity that Filipino people, kinda took hold of already, and they made it their own. Trained teams started forming and the Philippines had national teams that were already very successful in Asian context, so Asian tournaments they were dominating. In 1975, the Philippine Basketball Association became the first men’s, basketball league in Asia, and the first after the NBA in America. So the Philippines has had a long history of relationship with the sport of basketball, but because it’s been so long, the sport itself was formed in response to all the cultural aspects that were already existing, right? a lot of town squares had basketball courts ’cause it was so easy to put there. So the same plazas, meeting spaces where people would have their town gatherings, social places, were also courts 

[00:45:56] Miko Lee: And why do you think or just surmise that basketball has taken off more than, football or American term soccer, which is developed so much in other countries, which is also a little bit more communal?

[00:46:08] Carolyn Sideco: My opinion is that American colonization, in the United States dictated, much more the United States cannot dictate because football or soccer is a more global sport, and the US didn’t have as much stake in guiding that as a colonization tool as they did basketball.

[00:46:29] Miko Lee: Hmm. Interesting. Speaking of the colonization and politics, I’m wondering about the connection between basketball and politics. In, Cassidy’s podcast, they were talking about a politician who released their own basketball shoe, which is wild to me. Yes. So I wonder if there’s other connections between basketball or politics, and if that’s generally somebody who’s more on the colonizer’s viewpoint or more conservative viewpoint. Hmm. 

[00:46:58] Carolyn Sideco: Hmm. Interesting. I, hmm, I go back and forth with this a lot, Miko, the colonizing tool that is sports, especially the capitalistic sort of, extraction, of sports, right? Of its players, who I like to think of as workers. They’re also workers, right? The professional, Philippine Basketball Association is not much different than even professional sports in America with the way they’re set up, right? You have owning groups or companies, and so you have these ways that exploitation and that workers’ rights are… how do I say it? Because it’s at the professional level, these concepts are very much at play, excuse the pun. The Philippines also has a governmental arm related to sports. So sports in and of itself is recognized, right? It doesn’t have as much of this sort of altruistic thing as, as we say in the United States, like the sports is like the good of mankind, like that sort of thing. Like, I think, you know- 

[00:48:08] Miko Lee: The kind of Olympic idea of unity, it brings us all together.

[00:48:11] Carolyn Sideco: Right, like that, those conceptual sorts of virtues. 

[00:48:15] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:15] Carolyn Sideco: Yeah. So in the Philippines, I think it’s so much more practical because it’s fun, and you could get in a game anywhere, and it’s accessible. Mm-hmm. It’s accessible to all strata, economic strata, right? You see basketball courts everywhere, in rural areas in cities. Everywhere you’ll see basketball courts. The Philippines itself as a country- I think that relationship to sports is something different than the American relationship to professional sports, where dominance and, winning and, beating others and making as much money as possible in that is at the forefront. In the United States even with youth sports now. I do some consulting work, especially in youth sports spaces, and the privatization and the extraction of the youth sports space is, is… We could go on all day about that. I think, this is obviously from a Filipino American perspective. For sure. I’ve never lived in the Philippines. I was born in the Philippines, but my relationship to the Philippines is also, being mitigated by how I experience American sports, right? So when I think about how I’ve experienced basketball when I’ve gone to the Philippines, , and it’s the same as any aspect of that culture, right? It’s warm, it’s welcoming, it’s friendly, and those are the cultural aspects that kind of, , supersede the fact that basketball… Basketball has its place, but it’s in service to the cultural needs, right? To the need to be social, to participate in a town gathering. It’s so sociopolitical.- And because it is, it’s still a colonizing tool, right? But it’s still mitigated in a way that I think just like Filipino basketball players are so, like, quick. They’re known for quickness, agility, and finesse, and, like, drama, right? I used to joke around, like, you can always tell where a Filipino basketball player is in the United States ’cause no Filipino who has Filipino blood in them can do a regular layup. Like they have to make it all fancy. I think that, those sorts of aspects that are not tangible, that bring to light, the way a culture of people affect the sport. it enables a culture to push out through the boundaries of that sport what was given to them. What was given to them is, “This is how you play. These are the rules,” and all that kinda stuff, and that’s great, but Filipino history of basketball is always, like, how do you integrate all the really cool things about your culture? It’s something that’s very different, and it emerges as something that’s not quite American.

[00:51:36] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I’m wondering how our audience can find out more about you and your work. 

[00:51:43] Carolyn Sideco: They can, follow me on Instagram at coachingkapwa, K-A-P-W-A. Kapwa is the Filipino word for the concept of interrelationship, interconnectedness. And so everything I learned about being, being a person really is through being a good teammate, and sports is the funnest way, like I’ve said before to practice being a good teammate 

[00:52:12] Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Coach, for sharing with me about Sports Liberation and your work, and I’ll put links to all that in our show notes. And I thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. 

[00:52:23] Carolyn Sideco: Thank you, Miko

[00:52:25] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night. 

The post APEX Express – 8.13.26 – Bayanihan in Ballhalla appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

For this episode of “Obbligato,” a show dedicated to AAPI classical musicians, composers, and scholars, host Isabel Li interviews Indian American composer Reena Esmail, who blends Hindustani musical themes with western classical compositional styles.

Music in this episode:

– This Love Between Us “Prayers for Unity”: II. [Sikhism]

– Lacrimosa (from Malhaar: a Requiem for Water)

– Terra infirma: IV. roaming the ghost forest

Isabel Li: I’m Isabel Li, here for a new edition of “Obbligato,” which explores the AAPI community in the classical music world. Today, we’re featuring the Indian American composer Reena Esmail and her unique compositions that blend Hindustani music with Western classical styles and how she writes music about religion, spirituality, and even environmentalism. Welcome, Reena, to Apex Express.

Reena Esmail: Hey! It’s so great to be here.

IL: My first question for you is one that’s probably a little bit loaded, but how do you identify and what’s your story?

RE: I don’t know, it’s interesting because I work in many different situations, and I think I always identify as the thing that isn’t whatever the dominant situation is that I work in. Right? So it’s like when I’m in America, I identify as an Indian American. When I’m in India, I identify as an American. When I’m working in Western classical music, I’m the person who knows stuff about Hindustani music. When I’m working in Hindustani music, I’m the person who knows stuff about Western music. So really. Actually, I think of identity not as a fixed thing, but as how you, um, delineate yourself, how you’re unique in the situation you’re in.

You know, it’s interesting because especially in the case of Asian Americans, Asia is such a broad thing, right? There are so many more East Asians in Western classical music than there are South Asians. Certainly in my generation. You know, I was surrounded by Chinese, Korean, some Japanese people who were always, you know, playing the piano when I was playing the piano. And, um, there really was not many other Indian people. And, you know, I’ll, I’ll actually say that even within India, um, you know, if you look at me in America, I’m just Indian. If you look at me in India, I have a very unusual lineage, which is that my dad is from the region of Gujarat and his family is Muslim. My mom is from the region of Goa and her family is Catholic. And so because of that, when I was expressing interest in music, My mom was the one who had more of kind of a musical knowledge in her family, even though there’s no professional musicians in her family. So because Goa was colonized by Portugal, there is this element of Western classical music in Goan culture. And so because of that, my mom was like, oh, let’s give her guitar lessons, let’s give her piano lessons. And so that’s how I landed up in Western classical music as opposed to doing Indian classical music. Um, so yeah, I kind of went through the Western classical scene. I was very interested in being a pianist. And, you know, I’m glad that I’m glad I’m a failed pianist in all honesty, because I see what my colleagues who are real, you know, professional pianists have to go through. And I just don’t think I have what it takes to do that. It’s really an intense job. Um, but when I was in high school, um, one of my theory teachers kind of said, hey, you know, you might be a composer. It seems like you think like a composer thinks, why don’t you try composing and why don’t you try writing things down? and one thing led to another. And basically a year and a half to two years after studying, I got one of a very few spots in the undergrad program in composition at Juilliard. And that was a point where my parents kind of said, okay, you know, we don’t know a lot about the music world, but it seems like if she got into Juilliard, she’s probably like somewhat good at this. Maybe we should kind of see how this goes. And, you know, from there on, I pursued composition.

IL: And when and why did you start to study Indian classical music, which is a big element in your compositions now?

RE: Yeah, absolutely. So I think it’s interesting because in every generation, I’ve seen so much change in how the diaspora views itself. And certainly when I was growing up, you know, I know this is hard to believe, but there were not if you were an Indian going to school, you were kind of the only one. If you were an Indian music, you were kind of the only one. So there was this element where when I went to Juilliard, um, there were I to my knowledge, two Indians in the entire school, me and an actress who had actually come from Calcutta. And so people were trying to, you know, make conversation with me and they’d be like, well, you know, do you do stuff with Indian classical music? And I would just be like, no, I’m trying so hard to even write music for orchestra and, you know, string quartet and all the things that my peers are trying to do. Like, is that not enough? Because I’m Indian, I also have to be doing all this other stuff. And so I resisted it for a long time because I was just trying so hard to do one thing well. But then, you know, I think what, what made me kind of unique is that, you know, I stood out, I was Indian and then, you know, when I was young, that felt really cool. The older I got, the more I thought, well, you know, I know I’m from this culture that has incredible music and I know it when I hear it, I know nothing about it, and maybe I should actually pursue it. And so I really separately kind of started meeting Indian musicians who lived in New York, and I would just ask them questions, and I got to know them. And I realized that while we didn’t share a type of music, we did share a culture and we did share a love of music because it is interesting that the culture of Indian classical music is actually quite similar to the culture of Western classical music. You know, you study with a teacher over a really long period of time. You’re practicing for hours a day. The kind of personality that would love Western classical music would also love Indian classical music. And so I just made friends with some of these Indian classical musicians. And of course, being a composer, I thought, why don’t I put them in my music? You know, how do I do that? And so it was really just curiosity that led me down that path. And for many years, that path was very separate. Because again, I know it’s very hard to believe now, but there was a time where people really did not want these cultures to be combined, and people just really looked down on cultures that were not, you know, the dominant Western European classical culture. And so I kept them really separate. And even when I started combining them, people were like, oh, that’s sweet. She does stuff with Indian music, you know? And it was really not taken seriously. It’s only really in the last decade that people have been embracing other musical cultures. And I mean, how glad I am that that’s happening. But it was very, very hard fought and very separate at first.

IL: And on that note, how do you navigate the unique challenges of composing with both these cultures in mind, but also being situated in the United States, where people come from all different backgrounds? And how do you as a composer approach that in this context?

RE: I mean, I think it’s interesting because first of all, I am musically bilingual now, so I can. I went to India, I studied Indian classical music. Seriously. I still work with Indian classical musicians very closely. And so, you know, I can be working on a piece that has Indian classical musicians in it, and I can turn to them and immediately speak in their language and their musical language. And then I can turn to the Western musicians and speak in their musical language. So every single piece I write, especially the ones that involve Indian classical musicians. There is a way through those pieces, both through the Western lens and through the Indian lens. And so I think I’m working in a position where I actually do know how to speak both those languages. And when you do speak both those languages, you know, just the way that if you speak any two, you know, verbal languages, you would know that there are sounds that are cognates. And so you’re like, oh, I say the sound. So maybe and it means one thing in one culture and one thing in another culture. But you know that that sound is the same. And so with musical language, you can actually use those musical cognates to connect across cultures by saying, just listen for this thing. And when you listen for this thing, interpret it through the lens of your own culture. So that’s certainly how I work. But, you know, I mean, again, I want to say that’s not the only way to work. I don’t think that you have to be, you know, I mean, again, there’s probably most people who are listening to this probably have one musical culture and then maybe they know much less about the other musical culture. That is also fine. You know, you don’t need to be an expert in order to want to explore and, and love a thing that’s just, you know, where I am because it’s the, the center of my musical practice.

IL: Well, let’s hear a selection from Reena Esmail’s oratorio, “This Love Between Us.” This is the second movement titled Sikhism. David Hill conducts Juilliard415 with the Yale Schola Cantorum.

[MUSIC: This Love Between Us “Prayers for Unity”: II. Sikhism]

IL: That was Sikhism, the second movement from the oratorio This Love Between Us by Reena Esmail, who is here in conversation with me today on KPFA for APEX Express. Something that I really found interesting in especially your work — and I’m sure this has been asked many times, but This Love Between Us: Prayers for Unity. This oratorio that you wrote, beautiful work where you use words from the seven major religions of India. And each movement of the choral work is also named after a different religion. In what ways did you adhere to or challenge norms of spiritual music? Because religion is so religion and music are so deeply tied together. How did you challenge those norms or how did you express those norms when you wrote this work?

RE: You know, I think it’s interesting because my own spiritual background is very kind of multi spiritual multi-faith. But like I said, my, my father is, is my father’s side of the family is Muslim. My mom’s side of the family is Catholic. My husband is Hindu. All of them grew up in a very singular practice in each of their religions. But for me, I grew up, you know, around my mom and my dad and then, you know, my husband later. And just there’s a part of me that takes in the essence of each of these spiritual traditions. And, you know, I’m trying to kind of find what feels true to me in each of those places. And so to me, you know, this love between us is, is a place where I’m trying to essentially say, yes, we express things differently through whatever cultural, uh, history, that language or that that religion emerged through. And yet we’re all trying to get at that same numinous thing. And, you know, I mean, I’m not saying, oh, all religions are the same. Definitely not. You know, there’s, there’s many different ways to practice things. And, you know, your unique way into your spirituality is your own. And that’s, that’s amazing. But also, we all kind of our cultures form religions for a certain reason, and it’s because we want to try to understand things that are beyond ourselves. And so that’s essentially what the piece is saying. So I know I’m sure there are purists who are like, you shouldn’t be combining these things, but, you know, there’s always going to be purists who do that and there’s a role for that. But that’s not really my role. So, I mean, I picked the pieces and I picked the religion specifically because of the numbers of people who practice that religion currently within India. And so it is like the largest, um, populations, you know, like Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, all, all of those things. And then there’s one little tiny religion, Zoroastrianism. And while they are not, there’s not many of them within India. They are the ones who are practicing Western classical music in India. So people like Zubin Mehta and all, they are Parsis that are Zoroastrians. So I thought, you know, it’s important to include them too, because it’s a piece that involves a lot of Western classical musicians.

IL: I’m wondering now, as a composer who’s working with music of different languages and religions and origins and also evoking a lot of these spiritual truths that are pretty universal in nature. What is your view on the function of music? There’s the platitude that music is a universal language. Do you how to what extent do you agree with that?

RE: You know, yeah, it’s hard to, to, um, to think of music as a universal language. But I think sometimes we, how can I say this? It’s such a broad question. When we are working in a form that isn’t completely narrative, it gives us a little more chance to get at things that don’t have to follow logically after one another. They’re just feelings that we’re able to feel. And I like working even when there are words, you know, there are certainly words in all of these, these, uh, pieces in this love between us. But I feel like sometimes we just feel something within us. And, you know, I experience this a lot when I have a piece performed, people will come up to me and say like, oh, this made me feel like this. And then the next person will come up to me and say, oh, this made me feel exactly the opposite thing. And I, I really love that we can have those experiences. And, you know, recently it’s been really interesting because people have been asking these questions like interviewers, you know, before performances will be like, well, what do you want the audience to feel? And I’m like, oh, I don’t want to answer that question. I want you to feel whatever you feel. There’s nothing right to feel. And often, I mean, I’m not the one to ask. I’m so close to the music because when I’m listening, I’m thinking like, okay, was that C sharp in tune? Okay, you know, that’s what I’m feeling. And I certainly don’t want them to feel that. So I don’t know. I think it’s, it’s just exciting to see how when we get out of these, what we should do this and this is the right thing to do. And this is the only way to do it. Um, how do we behave? And there are so few spaces left where if we don’t say exactly the right words at the right time to the right people, you know, if we don’t have exactly the right opinions that everyone around us has, We are so condemned and music might be one of the last places that we’re allowed to feel whatever’s inside of us.

IL: Mhm. That’s really interesting to think about. I think art in general is very beautiful because it allows people to interpret it in many different ways. I think for your music, you really draw on cultural specificity in terms of Hindustani music. What advice would you give to other young composers or also maybe artists of different mediums in creating that balance between specificity and universality?

RE: Yeah, I think the thing is that the way into a deep practice is specificity. You know, I know people have asked me like, oh, you’ve done stuff with Indian music. Are you going to do stuff with other music? And I’m like, gosh, there’s still so much to explore. I could have like three lifetimes and still not explore everything I want to explore just in the relationship between Indian and Western classical music. I mean, goodness knows I have four degrees in Western classical music, and I still am barely scratching the surface of it. Right. So I kind of feel like specificity is important because it allows you to access depth. And yet, you know, when you are specific about a certain thing, um, like for instance, like a scholar who only speaks Italian, I mean, they’re going to know more than someone who maybe speaks five words of each language, right? So they can transfer over at a higher level and make more sophisticated points and understand the world with a more universal lens if they’ve gone really deep on one thing. So I would say, you know, to young composers, to young musicians, pick one practice and know it really, really well and deeply become go as far as you possibly can and then, you know, try to see if you can find relations between your primary practice and a different practice. Um, and I mean, some people, you know, I know in this generation that’s coming up, that’s like in their teens and twenties, there are South Asian, uh, kids who are here whose parents have come from India that are learning Indian and Western classical music side by side. And I think that’s great. I mean, that’s awesome. But I would also say make sure you don’t just learn halfway. Both of those things, you know, if you’re going to learn them, if at least with one thing, try to go as absolutely far as you can.

IL: Let’s hear another example of Reena Esmail’s bilingual musicality with her work, Malhaar: A Requiem for Water, which was recorded fairly recently. The vocalist is Graycen Gardner with the choir conducted by Amy Fogerson.

[MUSIC: Lacrimosa (from Malhaar: a Requiem for Water)]

IL: Composer Reena Esmail used Indian classical instruments in that work, titled Malhaar: A Requiem for water. The vocalist was Graycen Gardner, with the choir conducted by Amy Fogerson. Percussionist was Rohit Panchakshari. I’m Isabel Li in conversation with composer Reena Esmail on this edition of Apex Express here on KPFA 94.1 FM.

So when you integrate Hindustani classical Hindustani music, Indian classical music and those instruments into your scores, did you happen to did you have to develop a way to translate the notation of those notes in Western classical music notation, or vice versa?

RE: Yeah, it it begs the greater question of what is notation for? Right? Because notation is essentially a way for Western musicians who read notation to look at a thing and be able to associate sounds with that thing. And so when I’m notating for Western classical musicians, I’m saying, okay, what is a cellist typically seeing and what are they doing based on what they’re seeing? And then how can I take that language that they know really well that they play in Bach suites, that they play in Elgar, Cello Concerto, whatever it is, how can I take that language and just move it, you know, a couple degrees outward so that they’re able to express different things, right? And so it’s very much a psychological thing. You know, it’s not a science the way that we think of it as and we learn it as this, oh, you know, eighths and sixteenths, and they divide this way. There’s a lot you can do just to make someone feel a certain way with notation. On the other hand, if I’m writing for a sitar or tabla, the question is what? What is the role of the notation? Because the role of the notation for tabla player who has only Hindustani training and doesn’t read music. It’s certainly not for the tabla player that I’m doing the notation. Usually what I’ll do is sit down with the tabla player in a, you know, more Hindustani style and say, hey, this is what I want. I want you to have like six overtones of teental. It should be at this tempo, blah, blah, blah. And they’re like, oh, got it. I see what you want me to do. Right? And so all you need to figure out is the alignment points with the Western classical musicians. And so then the notation I put in the score is not really for them. It’s for a conductor, for the Western musicians to be able to understand what they are doing and to be able to cue them in and help them kind of be in dialogue to one another. So it’s interesting because, I mean, these days now I’m finding that there are tabla players who are both Indian and Western classical trained, and they want a part, but parts are not a thing. When I first wrote This Love Between Us, there were no parts for the tabla and sitar player. I actually had a cue sheet that I would actually point to as they were going, so that they knew, you know, what the different cues were because a part, you know, counting rests and stuff is not going to help them at all. So I think it’s mostly trying to understand how is someone perceiving something and how can you give them the information they need in the most seamless way possible so that you can express what you want to express?

IL: I love how technical that entire rundown was. I also wanted to talk a bit about your work, Terra Infirma, which is pretty recent. I had the honor of attending the premiere of Terra Infirma, a harp concerto that you composed based on your experiences with the Los Angeles fires in January of 2025. Um, it was such a wonderful work. I personally really loved hearing how you musically depicted the progression of a wildfire from despair to hope. It’s also not the first environment based piece that you’ve written. YYou’ve written, for example, Earth Speaks in 2015. How do you approach composing works that are so rooted in environmentalism? And of course, have, have the undertones of speaking to the larger climate crisis at hand?

RE: The thing that is interesting is, you know, someone was asking me about that piece, you know, you, you’re, they’re asking like, how do you kind of deal with activism in your work? And I was saying like, you know, I don’t really think of myself as an activist because I think these issues are so fundamental to all of us, right? It’s like you turn on your tap and you’re just afraid that there’s only going to be so long before water stops coming up. That’s not, um, it doesn’t feel like activism. It just feels like, you know, fear and it feels like we’re tapping into these human emotions where people are so worried about what’s going to happen. We don’t really know what to do. And I think, you know, with anything, most people who have fear about things, you’re going to just clam up if you feel that it’s too, um, too much to deal with. And it is I mean, the environmental crisis is so huge that I think most people are just clamming up. And I guess, you know, what is our role as musicians? I think it’s maybe to have some moments where we’re not just like on our phones, seeing pictures of things burn down and freaking out where we can actually take some time to just reflect and be with one another. Because if we’re going to solve this, it’s going to be together and we need to come to some kind of like calm understanding of what is happening. And so a lot of my pieces are not accusatory. They’re not, you know, pointing a finger. They’re not supposed to rile people up. They’re supposed to actually depict that experience of what it feels like to really sit with a hard thing for a long time and come to terms with it and then figure out how to move forward. And that’s certainly the case with Terra Infirma and certainly the case with my Requiem. Certainly the case with curiosity, like you were saying, it’s from Earth Speaks, which is many years ago. And that piece actually talks about the, the Pasadena institution’s. It was actually for an organization called Pasadena Master Chorale. They commissioned the work many years ago. And what’s so funny is I now live in Pasadena. I live in Altadena, up in the hills. So it’s I wasn’t living here at the time, but it is, you know, a place where many scientific institutions like the U.S. Geological Survey, you know, JPL, Caltech, all these places that are really exploring the environment in important ways are based. And so the piece kind of honors that and honors how we can interact positively with our environment. We can get data, we can find ways to do things that are, I mean, beyond my understanding, you’d have to ask a scientist, but but I just love that that we’re in this place that sees the environment as something to understand more deeply instead of something that’s just going to turn on us at a certain point.

IL: Certainly. And I’m really curious, because Terra Infirma is also a work that was paired with multimedia animation and performance. Was there anything in your compositional process that differed when you’re collaborating across these different mediums?

RE: Yeah. So it’s interesting because so the, there was, there were projections that were happening. And also in addition to that, it was a harp concerto, but a harp concerto where the harpist was also playing percussion. And so there were some elements that were so different than what would be typically like if harpist was like, I want a concerto. You would just be like, okay, you know, she sits there, she plays these notes. They’re in that one position. That’s all fine. Um, there was so much more, you’re right with this piece than with, um, with my normal pieces. Um, and to me it’s both, how can I say this? There’s, there’s such a different way I have to think about it, but I think that way starts with collaboration. So Yolanda Kondonassis, the incredible harp player, and Camilla Tassi, who was the production designer. These are people I know well and I’ve had multiyear relationships with. And so when you’re thinking about how to build something, you’re totally aware of what their work is like. I knew kind of the not even what Camilla’s projections were going to look like, but the way that they interact with things. We’ve done projects together before. And so I pretty much had the sense of how she was going to respond. And I knew what she needed to know in order for her to do her work and make things kind of match up with one another. And then also with Yolanda, a lot of the stuff I put in that was like harp and percussion together. It wasn’t something that I was making her do, right? It were things that we came up with together. We’ve spent so long workshopping things in percussion studios in, um, you know, we’ve met in all these different cities and we’re basically like banging things against a harp and doing, you know, just so much experimentation. So for every technique you see in the concerto, you, um, you basically there’s like ten things that we didn’t do that didn’t put in. So you’re really only seeing the best of all the kind of crazy stuff that we tried. So I do think the thing is that when you’re trying to invent something new and you’re trying to invent new styles and new techniques, I mean, you can think of anything, but you’re trying to find the things that A practically work and B allow the performers and the artists to really express themselves. So I found that I was actually choreographing the piece before I was composing it, um, that I had to figure out, okay, where are these percussion setups going to be? What are the instruments that I want? Okay. Are these chimes going to be like over her head? Or is she going to have to reach really far to get them? Are they going to be near the low end of the harp? Things like that that seem so practical. But the difference between having to reach out far and slowly versus having to like, quickly swat something near your ear, right? It makes a different choreography. And so I thought that way first. And then I kind of put the notes and rhythms and melodies and stuff in.

IL: Let’s now hear a selection from Reena Esmail’s Terra Infirma. This is the fourth movement titled “Roaming the Ghost Forest.” Yolanda Kondonassis is the harpist with the Interlochen Center for the Arts Orchestra.

[MUSIC: Terra infirma: IV. roaming the ghost forest]

IL: The harpist was Yolanda Kondonassis with the Interlochen Center for the Arts Orchestra, playing the fourth movement of Terra Infirma by composer Reena Esmail. I’m Isabel Leigh, and in this episode of Apex Express, I’m joined by Reena Esmail, the composer, in conversation about her music and her approach to making art.

Something else that I really was fascinated with on your on your Instagram account. You actually made a post a while back that I found to be very powerful. It’s pinned as the letter to the young artists’ immigrant parents. It’s such an empathetic message that I also really relate to as a daughter of immigrants in the arts. And you kind of argue that these children’s pursuit of the arts is a tribute to their parents immigrant struggles. Um, what motivated you to write this letter?

RE: You know, I’m so glad you asked about that because so much has changed since I wrote that letter in a really good way. You know, first of all, I will say that when I wrote that letter, if you weren’t a child of, you know, like Asian immigrant parents, you. And actually, I think this is true for most immigrant parents who, you know, have kind of given up everything to move to America so that their kids can explore all these opportunities they wouldn’t get in their country of origin. When I first wrote this letter, it was really just, I felt like I was saying something really new. And now I think what’s really interesting is that we have both parents who understand this and, um, kind of almost this parody way of seeing what Asian parents are like. Right. For me, one thing that I, that just makes my heart sing is the comedy of Zarna Garg. I don’t know if you know who she is, but she is like an Indian American comic and she plays this role of being like this very typical Indian parent. And I will say, my parents weren’t really like this because again, they were two different religions and married one another. So they were already quite open minded. But like 99% of Indian parents and even my parents, sometimes they have this thing of like, well, ‘why are you going into this?’ Like you should make money, you should do this stuff. And I feel like, um, since Zarna’s comedy came into the world, it’s such an easy way to just point a finger at that and say, hey, this is what we’re really dealing with as Indian immigrants. And, you know, we all just laugh at it. And I find that, you know, sometimes my friends who are just, you know, white Americans who have been in this family has been in this country for many generations. They don’t get it. But like anyone who’s a child of immigrant is like, oh yes, I completely understand what she’s saying. So we have that. And I think that’s really healthy and awesome. And she’s very talented. Um, and on the other hand, I found that when I was first going into music and I mean, I, you know, when I was 18 and I was going to go to Juilliard, my parents were certainly supportive and curious and wanted me to do whatever they thought I might be good at enough to make a living and didn’t want to optimize for, oh, you need to earn the most money or you need to, etc. but most other Indians around us were like, oh my God, she’s so smart. Why is she like wasting her life doing music? You know, that was kind of the dominant narrative.

And so I had to become very good at explaining why. And imagine my complete disbelief when I would go to conservatory and meet people whose parents had encouraged them to do music. I was like, what is happening? Like, we’re like, there’d be four siblings and all of them would be in the arts. And I was like, oh wait, you’re not the black sheep of your family. Like, I mean, half of my family, I don’t think really knows what I do still even. Right? And so to me, it was so important to provide some kind of context. And like you said, it’s like to, to come to this country and be an immigrant and to come with a lot of skills, but to have to just work in silence for so many years with no congratulation, with no one just constantly propping you up. That is what being an artist is. And you know, it’s only maybe the past 10 years of my career that I’ve even been visible to people. Before that, it was just me doing my thing and like, no one cared about it. It was not not glamorous at all. And for me, that’s what built the kind of strength in me to be able to sustain the career that I have now. And so I think if it had been a little too easy, I don’t know that I would be able to handle, um, the, what I have now. So I think what’s great though is that the Indian parents of kids who are teenagers and in their twenties nowadays are not coming to me being like, oh my God, what do I do with this kid who wants to be a musician? I’ve failed as a parent. Which again, for those of you who are not Asian, this is totally a true thing out there. They will come to me and say, hey, look, my, my child doesn’t wants to be a musician. I want to help them. I can’t tell like, are they good at this? Where should they be? Can you help me understand things? And that is really what my parents did.

And I will, you know, kind of go further to say — PBS did a special on me a number of years ago, and I insisted on putting my parents in this special because I wanted people to see what it looked like to have really encouraging Indian parents who, again, they weren’t going in blind. They were. They would go to my teachers and be like, well, I mean, is she good? Can she do this? We don’t know what these answers are. Can you help us understand? And they really relied on the right people to be able to help me get to places that they couldn’t get, but they also weren’t just immediately dismissive of it. And that’s what allowed me to kind of have a massive advantage, because I didn’t have to also go back to school and do a medical degree. Or like most of my my peers of my age actually did. So I wanted to put them on that special to actually show that that is possible. And I’m seeing more and more that it is. There are many more parents like that now. And oh my goodness, I love every one of them.

IL: That’s wonderful. When you look back at your compositional career and how everything has changed since then, how do you think your work has evolved?

RE: Oh, so you mean like since I began being a composer?

IL: Yeah. Or maybe in the past ten years, even.

RE: Yeah. It’s interesting because I think one of the big inflection points in my work was when I did my Fulbright in India. So before that, I really didn’t know very much about Indian classical music. And then the year before that, I really started to get deeper and started to integrate my Indian and Western classical world with one another. And then, you know, I from 2011 to 2012, I went to India and what was so different was actually seeing the music in its culture and actually getting to participate as an Indian in India, studying Indian classical music. Right. Because there’s no filter. You’re not going through a Western filter. You’re just there in this culture. And I know that many of my Indian teachers, they kind of had this attitude of like, look, we don’t know what kind of music you were doing before, but we’re so glad you’re here and studying your own music. And this is great. And so there wasn’t this sense of having to go through another culture to get to their, their music. And to me, that really changed things because I don’t see myself as writing music. That’s one through the conduit of the other. I just see it as two streams that are equally incredible and equally independent, and they just meet each other in these interesting places.

IL: And looking ahead into the future, is there an ensemble or an artist who you haven’t worked with before that you’d love to work with? Ooh. It’s interesting because, like, almost everyone who comes to mind is not a musician. Um, I’ve worked with so many. I mean, truly, I’ve been so lucky to work with musicians like Gil and Orli Shaham. Yolanda Kondonassis. I’m writing a piece for Hilary Hahn and Matthias Goerne right now. It’s I mean, just like literally anyone who I could ever ask to work with, I have. I don’t know. I mean, to me, it’s like, gosh, someone like Misty Copeland would be amazing. Like, you know, there are so many actors like the world of Indian/South Asians in comedy and in drama and stuff like that is just incredible. People like Mindy Kaling who have done incredible things to me, people like that are just going outside of just music would be fascinating to me.

IL: Absolutely. And I will put a link to your website, as well as the links to the music that will also be aired on this in this episode on KPFA.org, so our listeners can learn more about you and your wonderful work. Well, Reena, thank you so much for your time and thank you for talking to me today.

RE: Absolutely.

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