A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Powerleegirl hosts, the mother daughter team of Miko Lee, Jalena & Ayame Keane-Lee speak with artists about their craft and the works that you can catch in the Bay Area. Featured are filmmaker Yuriko Gamo Romer, playwright Jessica Huang and photographer Joyce Xi.

More info about their work here:

Diamond Diplomacy

Yuriko Gamo Romer

Jessica Huang’s Mother of Exiles at Berkeley Rep

Joyce Xi’s Our Language Our Story at Galeria de la Raza

Show Transcript

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. 

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:46] Thank you for joining us on Apex Express Tonight. Join the PowerLeeGirls as we talk with some powerful Asian American women artists. My mom and sister speak with filmmaker Yuriko Gamo Romer, playwright Jessica Huang, and photographer Joyce Xi. Each of these artists have works that you can enjoy right now in the Bay Area.

First up, let’s listen in to my mom Miko Lee chat with Yuriko Gamo Romer about her film Diamond Diplomacy. 

Miko Lee: [00:01:19] Welcome, Yuriko Gamo Romer to Apex Express, amazing filmmaker, award-winning director and producer. Welcome to Apex Express.

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:01:29] Thank you for having me. 

Miko Lee: [00:01:31] It’s so great to see your work after this many years. We were just chatting that we knew each other maybe 30 years ago and have not reconnected. So it’s lovely to see your work. I’m gonna start with asking you a question. I ask all of my Apex guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:01:49] Oh, who are my people? That’s a hard one. I guess I’m Japanese American. I’m Asian American, but I’m also Japanese. I still have a lot of people in Japan. That’s not everything. Creative people, artists, filmmakers, all the people that I work with, which I love. And I don’t know, I can’t pare it down to one narrow sentence or phrase. And I don’t know what my legacy is. My legacy is that I was born in Japan, but I have grown up in the United States and so I carry with me all that is, technically I’m an immigrant, so I have little bits and pieces of that and, but I’m also very much grew up in the United States and from that perspective, I’m an American. So too many words. 

Miko Lee: [00:02:44] Thank you so much for sharing. Your latest film was called Diamond Diplomacy. Can you tell us what inspired this film?

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:02:52] I have a friend named Dave Dempsey and his father, Con Dempsey, was a pitcher for the San Francisco Seals. And the Seals were the minor league team that was in the West Coast was called the Pacific Coast League They were here before the Major League teams came to the West Coast. So the seals were San Francisco’s team, and Con Dempsey was their pitcher. And it so happened that he was part of the 1949 tour when General MacArthur sent the San Francisco Seals to Allied occupied Japan after World War II. And. It was a story that I had never heard. There was a museum exhibit south of Market in San Francisco, and I was completely wowed and awed because here’s this lovely story about baseball playing a role in diplomacy and in reuniting a friendship between two countries. And I had never heard of it before and I’m pretty sure most people don’t know the story. Con Dempsey had a movie camera with him when he went to Japan I saw the home movies playing on a little TV set in the corner at the museum, and I thought, oh, this has to be a film. I was in the middle of finishing Mrs. Judo, so I, it was something I had to tuck into the back of my mind Several years later, I dug it up again and I made Dave go into his mother’s garage and dig out the actual films. And that was the beginning. But then I started opening history books and doing research, and suddenly it was a much bigger, much deeper, much longer story.

Miko Lee: [00:04:32] So you fell in, it was like synchronicity that you have this friend that had this footage, and then you just fell into the research. What stood out to you? 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:04:41] It was completely amazing to me that baseball had been in Japan since 1872. I had no idea. And most people,

Miko Lee: [00:04:49] Yeah, I learned that too, from your film. That was so fascinating. 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:04:53] So that was the first kind of. Wow. And then I started to pick up little bits and pieces like in 1934, there was an American All Star team that went to Japan. And Babe Ruth was the headliner on that team. And he was a big star. People just loved him in Japan. And then I started to read the history and understanding that. Not that a baseball team or even Babe Ruth can go to Japan and prevent the war from happening. But there was a warming moment when the people of Japan were so enamored of this baseball team coming and so excited about it that maybe there was a moment where it felt like. Things had thawed out a little bit. So there were other points in history where I started to see this trend where baseball had a moment or had an influence in something, and I just thought, wow, this is really a fascinating history that goes back a long way and is surprising. And then of course today we have all these Japanese faces in Major League baseball.

Miko Lee: [00:06:01] So have you always been a baseball fan?

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:06:04] I think I really became a fan of Major League Baseball when I was living in New York. Before that, I knew what it was. I played softball, I had a small connection to it, but I really became a fan when I was living in New York and then my son started to play baseball and he would come home from the games and he would start to give us the play by play and I started to learn more about it. And it is a fascinating game ’cause it’s much more complex than I think some people don’t like it ’cause it’s complex. 

Miko Lee: [00:06:33] I must confess, I have not been a big baseball fan. I’m also thinking, oh, a film about baseball. But I actually found it so fascinating with especially in the world that we live in right now, where there’s so much strife that there was this way to speak a different language. And many times we do that through art or music and I thought it was so great how your film really showcased how baseball was used as a tool for political repair and change. I’m wondering how you think this film applies to the time that we live in now where there’s such an incredible division, and not necessarily with Japan, but just with everything in the world.

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:07:13] I think when it comes down to it, if we actually get to know people. We learn that we’re all human beings and that we probably have more in common than we give ourselves credit for. And if we can find a space that is common ground, whether it’s a baseball field or the kitchen, or an art studio, or a music studio, I think it gives us a different place where we can exist and acknowledge That we’re human beings and that we maybe have more in common than we’re willing to give ourselves credit for. So I like to see things where people can have a moment where you step outside of yourself and go, oh wait, I do have something in common with that person over there. And maybe it doesn’t solve the problem. But once you have that awakening, I think there’s something. that happens, it opens you up. And I think sports is one of those things that has a little bit of that magical power. And every time I watch the Olympics, I’m just completely in awe. 

Miko Lee: [00:08:18] Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And speaking of that kind of repair and that aspect that sports can have, you ended up making a short film called Baseball Behind Barbed Wire, about the incarcerated Japanese Americans and baseball. And I wondered where in the filmmaking process did you decide, oh, I gotta pull this out of the bigger film and make it its own thing? 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:08:41] I had been working with Carrie Yonakegawa. From Fresno and he’s really the keeper of the history of Japanese American baseball and especially of the story of the World War II Japanese American incarceration through the baseball stories. And he was one of my scholars and consultants on the longer film. And I have been working on diamond diplomacy for 11 years. So I got to know a lot of my experts quite well. I knew. All along that there was more to that part of the story that sort of deserved its own story, and I was very fortunate to get a grant from the National Parks Foundation, and I got that grant right when the pandemic started. It was a good thing. I had a chunk of money and I was able to do historical research, which can be done on a computer. Nobody was doing any production at that beginning of the COVID time. And then it’s a short film, so it was a little more contained and I was able to release that one in 2023.

Miko Lee: [00:09:45] Oh, so you actually made the short before Diamond Diplomacy.

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:09:49] Yeah. The funny thing is that I finished it before diamond diplomacy, it’s always been intrinsically part of the longer film and you’ll see the longer film and you’ll understand that part of baseball behind Barbed Wire becomes a part of telling that part of the story in Diamond Diplomacy.

Miko Lee: [00:10:08] Yeah, I appreciate it. So you almost use it like research, background research for the longer film, is that right? 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:10:15] I had been doing the research about the World War II, Japanese American incarceration because it was part of the story of the 150 years between Japan and the United States and Japanese people in the United States and American people that went to Japan.

So it was always a part of that longer story, and I think it just evolved that there was a much bigger story that needed to be told separately and especially ’cause I had access to the interview footage of the two guys that had been there, and I knew Carrie so well. So that was part of it, was that I learned so much about that history from him.

Miko Lee: [00:10:58] Thanks. I appreciated actually watching both films to be able to see more in depth about what happened during the incarceration, so that was really powerful. I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about the style of actually both films, which combine vintage Japanese postcards, animation and archival footage, and how you decided to blend the films in this way.

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:11:19] Anytime you’re making a film about history, there’s that challenge of. How am I going to show this story? How am I gonna get the audience to understand and feel what was happening then? And of course you can’t suddenly go out and go, okay, I’m gonna go film Babe Ruth over there. ’cause he’s not around anymore. So you know, you start digging up photographs. If we’re in the era of you have photographs, you have home movies, you have 16 millimeter, you have all kinds of film, then great. You can find that stuff if you can find it and use it. But if you go back further, when before people had cameras and before motion picture, then you have to do something else. I’ve always been very much enamored of Japanese woodblock prints. I think they’re beautiful and they’re very documentary in that they tell stories about the people and the times and what was going on, and so I was able to find some that sort of helped evoke the stories of that period of time. And then in doing that, I became interested in the style and maybe can I co-opt that style? Can we take some of the images that we have that are photographs? And I had a couple of young artists work on this stuff and it started to work and I was very excited. So then we were doing things like, okay, now we can create a transition between the print style illustration and the actual footage that we’re moving into, or the photograph that we’re dissolving into. And the same thing with baseball behind barbed wire. It became a challenge to show what was actually happening in the camps. In the beginning, people were not allowed to have cameras at all, and even later on it wasn’t like it was common thing for people to have cameras, especially movie cameras.

Latter part of the war, there was a little bit more in terms of photos and movies, but in terms of getting the more personal stories. I found an exhibit of illustrations and it really was drawings and paintings that were visual diaries. People kept these visual diaries, they drew and they painted, and I think part of it was. Something to do, but I think the other part of it was a way to show and express what was going on. So one of the most dramatic moments in there is a drawing of a little boy sitting on a toilet with his hands covering his face, and no one would ever have a photograph. Of a little boy sitting on a toilet being embarrassed because there are no partitions around the toilet. But this was a very dramatic and telling moment that was drawn. And there were some other things like that. There was one illustration in baseball behind barbed wire that shows a family huddled up and there’s this incredible wind blowing, and it’s not. Home movie footage, but you feel the wind and what they had to live through. I appreciate art in general, so it was very fun for me to be able to use various different kinds of art and find ways to make it work and make it edit together with the other, with the photographs and the footage. 

Miko Lee: [00:14:56] It’s really beautiful and it tells the story really well. I’m wondering about a response to the film from folks that were in it because you got many elders to share their stories about what it was like being either folks that were incarcerated or folks that were playing in such an unusual time. Have you screened the film for folks that were in it? And if so what has their response been? 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:15:20] Both the men that were in baseball behind barbed wire are not living anymore, so they have not seen it. With diamond diplomacy, some of the historians have been asked to review cuts of the film along the way. But the two baseball players that play the biggest role in the film, I’ve given them links to look at stuff, but I don’t think they’ve seen it. So Moi’s gonna see it for the first time, I’m pretty sure, on Friday night, and it’ll be interesting to see what his reaction to it is. And of course. His main language is not English. So I think some of it’s gonna be a little tough for him to understand. But I am very curious ’cause I’ve known him for a long time and I know his stories and I feel like when we were putting the film together, it was really important for me to be able to tell the stories in the way that I felt like. He lived them and he tells them, I feel like I’ve heard these stories over and over again. I’ve gotten to know him and I understand some of his feelings of joy and of regret and all these other things that happen, so I will be very interested to see what his reaction is to it.

Miko Lee: [00:16:40] Can you share for our audience who you’re talking about.

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:16:43] Well, Sanhi is a nickname, his name is Masa Nouri. Murakami. He picked up that nickname because none of the ball players could pronounce his name.

Miko Lee: [00:16:53] I did think that was horrifically funny when they said they started calling him macaroni ’cause they could not pronounce his name. So many of us have had those experiences.

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:17:02] Yeah, especially if your name is Masanori Murakami. That’s a long, complicated one. So he, Masanori Murakami is the first Japanese player that came and played for the major leagues. And it was an inadvertent playing because he was a kid, he was 19 years old. He was playing on a professional team in Japan and they had some, they had a time period where it made sense to send a couple of these kids over to the United States. They had a relationship with Kapi Harada, who was a Japanese American who had been in the Army and he was in Japan during. The occupation and somehow he had, he’d also been a big baseball person, so I think he developed all these relationships and he arranged for these three kids to come to the United States and to, as Mahi says, to study baseball. And they were sent to the lowest level minor league, the single A camps, and they played baseball. They learned the American ways to play baseball, and they got to play with low level professional baseball players. Marcy was a very talented left handed pitcher. And so when September 1st comes around and the postseason starts, they expand the roster and they add more players to the team. And the scouts had been watching him and the Giants needed a left-handed pitcher, so they decided to take a chance on him, and they brought him up and he was suddenly going to Shea Stadium when. The Giants were playing the Mets and he was suddenly pitching in a giant stadium of 40,000 people. 

Miko Lee: [00:18:58] Can you share a little bit about his experience when he first came to America? I just think it shows such a difference in time to now. 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:19:07] Yeah, no kidding. Because today they’re the players that come from Japan are coddled and they have interpreters wherever they go and they travel and chartered planes and special limousines and whatever else they get. So Marcie. He’s, I think he was 20 by the time he was brought up so young. Mahi at 20 years old, the manager comes in and says, Hey, you’re going to New York tomorrow and hands him plane tickets and he has to negotiate his way. Get on this plane, get on that plane, figure out how to. Get from the airport to the hotel, and he’s barely speaking English at this point. He jokes that he used to carry around an English Japanese dictionary in one pocket and a Japanese English dictionary in the other pocket. So that’s how he ended up getting to Shea Stadium was in this like very precarious, like they didn’t even send an escort.

Miko Lee: [00:20:12] He had to ask the pilot how to get to the hotel. Yeah, I think that’s wild. So I love this like history and what’s happened and then I’m thinking now as I said at the beginning, I’m not a big baseball sports fan, but I love love watching Shohei Ohtani. I just think he’s amazing. And I’m just wondering, when you look at that trajectory of where Mahi was back then and now, Shohei Ohtani now, how do you reflect on that historically? And I’m wondering if you’ve connected with any of the kind of modern Japanese players, if they’ve seen this film.

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:20:48] I have never met Shohei Ohtani. I have tried to get some interviews, but I haven’t gotten any. I have met Ichi. I did meet Nori Aoki when he was playing for the Giants, and I met Kenta Maya when he was first pitching for the Dodgers. They’re all, I think they’re all really, they seem to be really excited to be here and play. I don’t know what it’s like to be Ohtani. I saw something the other day in social media that was comparing him to Taylor Swift because the two of them are this like other level of famous and it must just be crazy. Probably can’t walk down the street anymore. But it is funny ’cause I’ve been editing all this footage of mahi when he was 19, 20 years old and they have a very similar face. And it just makes me laugh that, once upon a time this young Japanese kid was here and. He was worried about how to make ends meet at the end of the month, and then you got the other one who’s like a multi multimillionaire. 

Miko Lee: [00:21:56] But you’re right, I thought that too. They look similar, like the tall, the face, they’re like the vibe that they put out there. Have they met each other? 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:22:05] They have actually met, I don’t think they know each other well, but they’ve definitely met.

Miko Lee: [00:22:09] Mm, It was really a delight. I am wondering what you would like audiences to walk away with after seeing your film.

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:22:17] Hopefully they will have a little bit of appreciation for baseball and international baseball, but more than anything else. I wonder if they can pick up on that sense of when you find common ground, it’s a very special space and it’s an ability to have this people to people diplomacy. You get to experience people, you get to know them a little bit. Even if you’ve never met Ohtani, you now know a little bit about him and his life and. Probably what he eats and all that kind of stuff. So it gives you a chance to see into another culture. And I think that makes for a different kind of understanding. And certainly for the players. They sit on the bench together and they practice together and they sweat together and they, everything that they do together, these guys know each other. They learn about each other’s languages and each other’s food and each other’s culture. And I think Mahi went back to Japan with almost as much Spanish as they did English. So I think there’s some magical thing about people to people diplomacy, and I hope that people can get a sense of that. 

Miko Lee: [00:23:42] Thank you so much for sharing. Can you tell our audience how they could find out more about your film Diamond diplomacy and also about you as an artist? 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:23:50] the website is diamonddiplomacy.com. We’re on Instagram @diamonddiplomacy. We’re also on Facebook Diamond Diplomacy. So those are all the places that you can find stuff, those places will give you a sense of who I am as a filmmaker and an artist too. 

Miko Lee: [00:24:14] Thank you so much for joining us today, Yuriko. Gamo. Romo. So great to speak with you and I hope the film does really well. 

Yuriko Gamo Romer: [00:24:22] Thank you, Miko. This was a lovely opportunity to chat with you.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:24:26] Next up, my sister Jalena Keane-Lee speaks with playwright Jessica Huang, whose new play Mother of Exiles just had its world premiere at Berkeley Rep is open until December 21st. 

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:24:39] All right. Jessica Huang, thank you so much for being here with us on Apex Express and you are the writer of the new play Mother of Exiles, which is playing at Berkeley Rep from November 14th to December 21st. Thank you so much for being here.

Jessica Huang: [00:24:55] Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:24:59] I’m so curious about this project. The synopsis was so interesting. I was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about it and how you came to this work.

Jessica Huang: [00:25:08] When people ask me what mother of Exiles is, I always say it’s an American family story that spans 160 plus years, and is told in three acts. In 90 minutes. So just to get the sort of sense of the propulsion of the show and the form, the formal experiment of it. The first part takes place in 1898, when the sort of matriarch of the family is being deported from Angel Island. The second part takes place in 1999, so a hundred years later where her great grandson is. Now working for the Miami, marine interdiction unit. So he’s a border cop. The third movement takes place in 2063 out on the ocean after Miami has sunk beneath the water. And their descendants are figuring out what they’re gonna do to survive. It was a strange sort of conception for the show because I had been wanting to write a play. I’d been wanting to write a triptych about America and the way that interracial love has shaped. This country and it shaped my family in particular. I also wanted to tell a story that had to do with this, the land itself in some way. I had been sort of carrying an idea for the play around for a while, knowing that it had to do with cross-cultural border crossing immigration themes. This sort of epic love story that each, in each chapter there’s a different love story. It wasn’t until I went on a trip to Singapore and to China and got to meet some family members that I hadn’t met before that the rest of it sort of fell into place. The rest of it being that there’s a, the presence of, ancestors and the way that the living sort of interacts with those who have come before throughout the play.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:13] I noticed that ancestors, and ghosts and spirits are a theme throughout your work. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your own ancestry and how that informs your writing and creative practice.

Jessica Huang: [00:27:25] Yeah, I mean, I’m in a fourth generation interracial marriage. So, I come from a long line of people who have loved people who were different from them, who spoke different languages, who came from different countries. That’s my story. My brother his partner is German. He lives in Berlin. We have a history in our family of traveling and of loving people who are different from us. To me that’s like the story of this country and is also the stuff I like to write about. The thing that I feel like I have to share with the world are, is just stories from that experience.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:28:03] That’s really awesome. I guess I haven’t really thought about it that way, but I’m third generation of like interracial as well. ’cause I’m Chinese, Japanese, and Irish. And then at a certain point when you’re mixed, it’s like, okay, well. The odds of me being with someone that’s my exact same ethnic breakdown feel pretty low. So it’s probably gonna be an interracial relationship in one way or the other.

Jessica Huang: [00:28:26] Totally. Yeah. And, and, and I don’t, you know, it sounds, and it sounds like in your family and in mine too, like we just. Kept sort of adding culture to our family. So my grandfather’s from Shanghai, my grandmother, you know, is, it was a very, like upper crust white family on the east coast. Then they had my dad. My dad married my mom whose people are from the Ukraine. And then my husband’s Puerto Rican. We just keep like broadening the definition of family and the definition of community and I think that’s again, like I said, like the story of this country.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:29:00] That’s so beautiful. I’m curious about the role of place in this project in particular, mother of exiles, angel Island, obviously being in the Bay Area, and then the rest of it taking place, in Miami or in the future. The last act is also like Miami or Miami adjacent. What was the inspiration behind the place and how did place and location and setting inform the writing.

Jessica Huang: [00:29:22] It’s a good question. Angel Island is a place that has loomed large in my work. Just being sort of known as the Ellis Island of the West, but actually being a place with a much more difficult history. I’ve always been really inspired by the stories that come out of Angel Island, the poetry that’s come out of Angel Island and, just the history of Asian immigration. It felt like it made sense to set the first part of the play here, in the Bay. Especially because Eddie, our protagonist, spent some time working on a farm. So there’s also like this great history of agriculture and migrant workers here too. It just felt like a natural place to set it. And then why did we move to Miami? There are so many moments in American history where immigration has been a real, center point of the sort of conversation, the national conversation. And moving forward to the nineties, the wet foot, dry foot Cuban immigration story felt like really potent and a great place to tell the next piece of this tale. Then looking toward the future Miami is definitely, or you know, according to the science that I have read one of the cities that is really in danger of flooding as sea levels rise.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:30:50] Okay. The Cuban immigration. That totally makes sense. That leads perfectly into my next question, which was gonna be about how did you choose the time the moments in time? I think that one you said was in the nineties and curious about the choice to have it be in the nineties and not present day. And then how did you choose how far in the future you wanted to have the last part?

Jessica Huang: [00:31:09] Some of it was really just based on the needs of the characters. So the how far into the future I wanted us to be following a character that we met as a baby in the previous act. So it just, you know, made sense. I couldn’t push it too far into the future. It made sense to set it in the 2060s. In terms of the nineties and, why not present day? Immigration in the nineties , was so different in it was still, like I said, it was still, it’s always been a important national conversation, but it wasn’t.

There was a, it felt like a little bit more, I don’t know if gentle is the word, but there just was more nuance to the conversation. And still there was a broad effort to prevent Cuban and refugees from coming ashore. I think I was fascinated by how complicated, I mean, what foot, dry foot, the idea of it is that , if a refugee is caught on water, they’re sent back to Cuba.

But if they’re caught on land, then they can stay in the us And just the idea of that is so. The way that, people’s lives are affected by just where they are caught , in their crossing. I just found that to be a bit ridiculous and in terms of a national policy. It made sense then to set the second part, which moves into a bit of a farce at a time when immigration also kind of felt like a farce.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:32:46] That totally makes sense. It feels very dire right now, obviously. But it’s interesting to be able to kind of go back in time and see when things were handled so differently and also how I think throughout history and also touching many different racial groups. We’ve talked a lot on this show about the Chinese Exclusion Act and different immigration policies towards Chinese and other Asian Americans. But they’ve always been pretty arbitrary and kind of farcical as you put it. Yeah.

Jessica Huang: [00:33:17] Yeah. And that’s not to make light of like the ways that people’s lives were really impacted by all of this policy . But I think the arbitrariness of it, like you said, is just really something that bears examining. I also think it’s really helpful to look at where we are now through the lens of the past or the future. Mm-hmm. Just gives just a little bit of distance and a little bit of perspective. Maybe just a little bit of context to how we got to where we got to.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:33:50] That totally makes sense. What has your experience been like of seeing the play be put up? It’s my understanding, this is the first this is like the premier of the play at Berkeley Rep.

Jessica Huang: [00:34:00] Yes. Yeah. It’s the world premier. It’s it incredible. Jackie Bradley is our director and she’s phenomenal. It’s just sort of mesmerizing what is happening with this play? It’s so beautiful and like I’ve alluded to, it shifts tone between the first movement being sort of a historical drama on Angel Island to, it moves into a bit of a farce in part two, and then it, by the third movement, we’re living in sort of a dystopic, almost sci-fi future. The way that Jackie’s just deftly moved an audience through each of those experiences while holding onto the important threads of this family and, the themes that we’re unpacking and this like incredible design team, all of these beautiful visuals sounds, it’s just really so magical to see it come to life in this way. And our cast is incredible. I believe there are 18 named roles in the play, and there are a few surprises and all of them are played by six actors. who are just. Unbelievable. Like all of them have the ability to play against type. They just transform and transform again and can navigate like, the deepest tragedies and the like, highest moments of comedy and just hold on to this beautiful humanity. Each and every one of them is just really spectacular. So I’m just, you know. I don’t know. I just feel so lucky to be honest with you. This production is going to be so incredible. It’s gonna be, it feels like what I imagine in my mind, but, you know, plus, 

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:35:45] well, I really can’t wait to see it.

What are you hoping that audiences walk away with after seeing the show?

Jessica Huang: [00:35:54] That’s a great question. I want audiences to feel connected to their ancestors and feel part of this community of this country and, and grateful and acknowledge the sacrifices that somebody along the line made so that they could be here with, with each other watching the show. I hope, people feel like they enjoyed themselves and got to experience something that they haven’t experienced before. I think that there are definitely, nuances to the political conversation that we’re having right now, about who has the right to immigrate into this country and who has the right to be a refugee, who has the right to claim asylum. I hope to add something to that conversation with this play, however small.

Jalena Keane-Lee:[00:36:43]  Do you know where the play is going next?

Jessica Huang: [00:36:45] No. No. I dunno where it’s going next. Um, exciting. Yeah, but we’ll, time will

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:36:51] and previews start just in a few days, right?

Jessica Huang: [00:36:54] Yeah. Yeah. We have our first preview, we have our first audience on Friday. So yeah, very looking forward to seeing how all of this work that we’ve been doing lands on folks.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:37:03] Wow, that’s so exciting. Do you have any other projects that you’re working on? Or any upcoming projects that you’d like to share about?

Jessica Huang: [00:37:10] Yeah, yeah, I do. I’m part of the writing team for the 10 Things I Hate About You Musical, which is in development with an Eye Toward Broadway. I’m working with Lena Dunham and Carly Rae Jepsen and Ethan Ska to make that musical. I also have a fun project in Chicago that will soon be announced.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:37:31] And what is keeping you inspired and keeping your, you know, creative energies flowing in these times?

Jessica Huang: [00:37:37] Well first of all, I think, you know, my collaborators on this show are incredibly inspiring. The nice thing about theater is that you just get to go and be inspired by people all the time. ’cause it’s this big collaboration, you don’t have to do it all by yourself. So that would be the first thing I would say. I haven’t seen a lot of theater since I’ve been out here in the bay, but right before I left New York, I saw MEUs . Which is by Brian Keda, Nigel Robinson. And it’s this sort of two-hander musical, but they do live looping and they sort of create the music live. Wow. And it’s another, it’s another show about an untold history and about solidarity and about folks coming together from different backgrounds and about ancestors, so there’s a lot of themes that really resonate. And also the show is just so great. It’s just really incredible. So , that was the last thing I saw that I loved. I’m always so inspired by theater that I get to see.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:36] That sounds wonderful. Is there anything else that you’d like to share?

Jessica Huang: [00:38:40] No, I don’t think so. I just thanks so much for having me and come check out the show. I think you’ll enjoy it. There’s something for everyone.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:48] Yeah. I’m so excited to see the show. Is there like a Chinese Cuban love story with the Miami portion? Oh, that’s so awesome. This is an aside, but I’m a filmmaker and I’ve been working on a documentary about, Chinese people in Cuba and there’s like this whole history of Chinese Cubans in Cuba too.

Jessica Huang: [00:39:07] Oh, that’s wonderful. In this story, it’s a person who’s a descendant of, a love story between a Chinese person and a Mexican man, a Chinese woman and a Mexican man, and oh, their descendant. Then also, there’s a love story between him and a Cuban woman.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:39:25] That’s awesome. Wow. I’m very excited to see it in all the different intergenerational layers and tonal shifts. I can’t wait to see how it all comes together.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:39:34] Next up we are back with Miko Lee, who is now speaking with photographer Joyce Xi about her latest exhibition entitled Our Language, our Story Running Through January in San Francisco at Galleria de Raza. 

Miko Lee: [00:39:48] Welcome, Joyce Xi to Apex Express. 

Joyce Xi: [00:39:52] Thanks for having me. 

Miko Lee: [00:39:53] Yes. I’m, I wanna start by asking you a question I ask most of my guests, and this is based on the great poet Shaka Hodges. It’s an adaptation of her question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Joyce Xi: [00:40:09] My people are artists, free spirits, people who wanna see a more free and just, and beautiful world. I’m Chinese American. A lot of my work has been in the Asian American community with all kinds of different people who dreaming of something better and trying to make the world a better place and doing so with creativity and with positive and good energy.

Miko Lee: [00:40:39] I love it. And what legacy do you carry with you?

Joyce Xi: [00:40:43] I am a fighter. I feel like just people who have been fighting for a better world. Photography wise, like definitely thinking about Corky Lee who is an Asian American photographer and activist. There’s been people who have done it before me. There will be people who do it after me, but I wanna do my version of it here.

Miko Lee: [00:41:03] Thank you so much and for lifting up the great Corky Lee who has been such a big influence on all of us. I’m wondering in that vein, can you talk a little bit about how you use photography as a tool for social change?

Joyce Xi: [00:41:17] Yeah. Photography I feel is a very powerful tool for social change. Photography is one of those mediums where it’s emotional, it’s raw, it’s real. It’s a way to see and show and feel like important moments, important stories, important emotions. I try to use it as a way to share. Truths and stories about issues that are important, things that people experience, whether it’s, advocating for environmental justice or language justice or just like some of them, just to highlight some of the struggles and challenges people experience as well as the joys and the celebrations and just the nuance of people’s lives. I feel like photography is a really powerful medium to show that. And I love photography in particular because it’s really like a frozen moment. I think what’s so great about photography is that. It’s that moment, it’s that one feeling, that one expression, and it’s kind of like frozen in time. So you can really, sit there and ponder about what’s in this person’s eyes or what’s this person trying to say? Or. What does this person’s struggle like? You can just see it through their expressions and their emotions and also it’s a great way to document. There’s so many things that we all do as advocates, as activists, whether it’s protesting or whether it’s just supporting people who are dealing with something. You have that moment recorded. Can really help us remember those fights and those moments. You can show people what happened. Photography is endlessly powerful. I really believe in it as a tool and a medium for influencing the world in positive ways.

Miko Lee: [00:43:08] I’d love us to shift and talk about your latest work, Our language, Our story.” Can you tell us a little bit about where this came from?

Joyce Xi: [00:43:15] Sure. I was in conversation with Nikita Kumar, who was at the Asian Law Caucus at the time. We were just chatting about art and activism and how photography could be a powerful medium to use to advocate or tell stories about different things. Nikita was talking to me about how a lot of language access work that’s being done by organizations that work in immigrant communities can often be a topic that is very jargon filled or very kind of like niche or wonky policy, legal and maybe at times isn’t the thing that people really get in the streets about or get really emotionally energized around. It’s one of those issues that’s so important to everything. Especially since in many immigrant communities, people do not speak English and every single day, every single issue.

All these issues that these organizations advocate around. Like housing rights, workers’ rights, voting rights, immigration, et cetera, without language, those rights and resources are very hard to understand and even hard to access at all. So, Nik and I were talking about language is so important, it’s one of those issues too remind people about the core importance of it. What does it feel like when you don’t have access to your language? What does it feel like and look like when you do, when you can celebrate with your community and communicate freely and live your life just as who you are versus when you can’t even figure out how to say what you wanna say because there’s a language barrier. 

Miko Lee: [00:44:55] Joyce can you just for our audience, break down what language access means? What does it mean to you and why is it important for everybody?

Joyce Xi: [00:45:05] Language access is about being able to navigate the world in your language, in the way that you understand and communicate in your life. In advocacy spaces, what it can look like is, we need to have resources and we need to have interpretation in different languages so that people can understand what’s being talked about or understand what resources are available or understand what’s on the ballot. So they can really experience their life to the fullest. Each of us has our languages that we’re comfortable with and it’s really our way of expressing everything that’s important to us and understanding everything that’s important to us. When that language is not available, it’s very hard to navigate the world.

On the policy front, there’s so many ways just having resources in different languages, having interpretation in different spaces, making sure that everybody who is involved in this society can do what they need to do and can understand the decisions that are being made. That affects them and also that they can affect the decisions that affect them.

Miko Lee: [00:46:19] I think a lot of immigrant kids just grow up being like the de facto translator for their parents. Which can be things like medical terminology and legal terms, which they might not be familiar with. And so language asks about providing opportunities for everybody to have equal understanding of what’s going on. And so can you talk a little bit about your gallery show? So you and Nikita dreamed up this vision for making language access more accessible and more story based, and then what happened?

Joyce Xi: [00:46:50] We decided to express this through a series of photo stories. Focusing on individual stories from a variety of different language backgrounds and immigration backgrounds and just different communities all across the Bay Area. And really just have people share from the heart, what does language mean to them? What does it affect in their lives? Both when one has access to the language, like for example, in their own community, when they can speak freely and understand and just share everything that’s on their heart. And what does it look like when that’s not available? When maybe you’re out in the streets and you’re trying to like talk to the bus driver and you can’t even communicate with each other. How does that feel? What does that look like? So we collected all these stories from many different community members across different languages and asked them a series of questions and took photos of them in their day-to-day lives, in family gatherings, at community meetings, at rallies, at home, in the streets, all over the place, wherever people were like Halloween or Ramadan or graduations, or just day-to-day life. Through the quotes that we got from the interviews, as well as the photos that I took to illustrate their stories, we put them together as photo stories for each person. Those are now on display at Galleria Deza in San Francisco. We have over 20 different stories in over 10 different languages. The people in the project spoke like over 15 different languages. Some people used multiple languages and some spoke English, many did not. We had folks who had immigrated recently, folks who had immigrated a while ago. We had children of immigrants talking about their experiences being that bridge as you talked about, navigating translating for their parents and being in this tough spot of growing up really quickly, we just have this kind of tapestry of different stories and, definitely encourage folks to check out the photos but also to read through each person’s stories. Everybody has a story that’s very special and that is from the heart

Miko Lee: [00:49:00] sounds fun. I can’t wait to see it in person. Can you share a little bit about how you selected the participants? 

Joyce Xi: [00:49:07] Yeah, selecting the participants was an organic process. I’m a photographer who’s trying to honor relationships and not like parachute in. We wanted to build relationships and work with people who felt comfortable sharing their stories, who really wanted to be a part of it, and who are connected in some kind of a way where it didn’t feel like completely out of context. So what that meant was that myself and also the Asian Law Caucus we have connections in the community to different organizations who work in different immigrant communities. So we reached out to people that we knew who were doing good work and just say Hey, do you have any community members who would be interested in participating in this project who could share their stories. Then through following these threads we were able to connect with many different organizations who brought either members or community folks who they’re connected with to the project. Some of them came through like friends. Another one was like, oh, I’ve worked with these people before, maybe you can talk to them. One of them I met through a World Refugee Day event. It came through a lot of different relationships and reaching out. We really wanted folks who wanted to share a piece of their life. A lot of folks who really felt like language access and language barriers were a big challenge in their life, and they wanted to talk about it. We were able to gather a really great group together. 

Miko Lee: [00:50:33] Can you share how opening night went? How did you navigate showcasing and highlighting the diversity of the languages in one space? 

Joyce Xi: [00:50:43] The opening of the exhibit was a really special event. We invited everybody who was part of the project as well as their communities, and we also invited like friends, community and different organizations to come. We really wanted to create a space where we could feel and see what language access and some of the challenges of language access can be all in one space. We had about 10 different languages at least going on at the same time. Some of them we had interpretation through headsets. Some of them we just, it was like fewer people. So people huddled together and just interpreted for the community members. A lot of these organizations that we partnered with, they brought their folks out. So their members, their community members, their friends and then. It was really special because a lot of the people whose photos are on the walls were there, so they invited their friends and family. It was really fun for them to see their photos on the wall. And also I think for all of our different communities, like we can end up really siloed or just like with who we’re comfortable with most of the time, especially if we can’t communicate very well with each other with language barriers. For everybody to be in the same space and to hear so many languages being used in the same space and for people to be around people maybe that they’re not used to being around every day. And yet through everybody’s stories, they share a lot of common experiences. Like so many of the stories were related to each other. People talked about being parents, people talked about going to the doctor or taking the bus, like having challenges at the workplace or just what it’s like to celebrate your own culture and heritage and language and what the importance of preserving languages. There are so many common threads and. Maybe a lot of people are not used to seeing each other or communicating with each other on a daily basis. So just to have everyone in one space was so special. We had performances, we had food, we had elders, children. There was a huge different range of people and it was just like, it was just cool to see everyone in the same space. It was special. 

Miko Lee: [00:52:51] And finally, for folks that get to go to Galleria de la Raza in San Francisco and see the exhibit, what do you want them to walk away with?

Joyce Xi: [00:53:00] I would love for people to walk away just like in a reflective state. You know how to really think about how. Language is so important to everything that we do and through all these stories to really see how so many different immigrant and refugee community members are making it work. And also deal with different barriers and how it affects them, how it affects just really simple human things in life that maybe some of us take for granted, on a daily basis. And just to have more compassion, more understanding. Ultimately, we wanna see our city, our bay area, our country really respecting people and their language and their dignity through language access and through just supporting and uplifting our immigrant communities in general. It’s a such a tough time right now. There’s so many attacks on our immigrant communities and people are scared and there’s a lot of dehumanizing actions and narratives out there. This is, hopefully something completely different than that. Something that uplifts celebrates, honors and really sees our immigrant communities and hopefully people can just feel that feeling of like, oh, okay, we can do better. Everybody has a story. Everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and all the people in these stories are really amazing human beings. It was just an honor for me to even be a part of their story. I hope people can feel some piece of that. 

Miko Lee: [00:54:50] Thank you so much, Joyce, for sharing your vision with us, and I hope everybody gets a chance to go out and see your work. 

Joyce Xi: [00:54:57] Thank you.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:55:00] Thanks so much for tuning in to Apex Express. Please check out our website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the guests tonight and find out how you can take direct action.

Apex Express is a proud member of Asian Americans for civil rights and equality. Find out more at aacre.org. That’s AACRE.org.

We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. 

Apex Express is produced by  Miko Lee, Jalena Keene-Lee, Ayame Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Nina Phillips & Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support and have a good night.

The post APEX Express – 11.20.25 – Artist to Artist appeared first on KPFA.

How has the classical music industry approached representation and how has the new music community forged new paths to embrace diverse musics? On tonight’s episode of Obbligato on APEX Express, Isabel Li is joined by violinist Shalini Vijayan, who discusses her vibrant career and reflects upon the ways contemporary classical music can build community. 

Violinist Shalini Vijayan, deemed “a vibrant violinist” by Mark Swed of the Los Angeles Times is an established performer and collaborator on both coasts. Always an advocate for modern music, Shalini was a founding member and Principal Second Violin of Kristjan Jarvi’s Absolute Ensemble, having recorded several albums with them including 2001 Grammy nominee, Absolution. Shalini was also a founding member of the Lyris Quartet, one of Los Angeles’ most beloved chamber ensembles. With Lyris, she has performed regularly at Walt Disney Concert Hall on the Green Umbrella series, for Jacaranda Music and helped to found the Hear Now Music Festival in Venice, California, a festival dedicated to the music of living composers in Los Angeles. 

Shalini performed for over a decade with Southwest Chamber Music and can be heard on their Grammy nominated Complete Chamber Works of Carlos Chávez, Vol. 3. She has been a featured soloist with the Los Angeles Master Chorale in Chinary Ung’s Spiral XII and Tan Dun’s Water Passion, including performances at the Ravinia Festival. As a chamber musician, Shalini has collaborated with such luminaries as Billy Childs, Chinary Ung, Gabriela Ortiz, and Wadada Leo Smith on whose Ten Freedom Summers she was a soloist. Shalini joined acclaimed LA ensemble, Brightwork New Music in 2019 and also serves as the curator for Brightwork’s Tuesdays@Monkspace series, a home for contemporary music and performance in Los Angeles. As a teacher, she has been on the faculty of the Nirmita Composers Workshop in both Siem Reap and Bangkok and coaches composition students through the Impulse New Music Festival. 

Shalini received her B.M. and M.M. degrees from Manhattan School of Music as a student of Lucie Robert and Ariana Bronne. As a member of the New World Symphony in Miami Beach, Florida, Shalini served as concertmaster for Michael Tilson Thomas, John Adams, Reinbert de Leeuw and Oliver Knussen. She was also concertmaster for the world premiere performances and recording of Steven Mackey’s Tuck and Roll for RCA records in 2000. Shalini was a member of the Pacific Symphony Orchestra for ten seasons and also served as Principal Second Violin of Opera Pacific. She lives in Los Angeles with her son, husband and two dogs and spends her free time cooking Indian food and exploring the culinary landscape of Southern California. 

Check out more of her work at: 

https://brightworknewmusic.com/tuesdays-at-monk-space/ 

https://www.lyrisquartet.com/ 

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the APEX Express. 

00:01:03 Isabel Li 

You’re listening to Obbligato, which is a segment about the Asian American Pacific Islander community, specifically in classical music. 

00:01:11 Isabel Li 

I’m your host, Isabel Li, and today joining me is Shalini Vijayan, who is a violinist, established performer, and always an advocate for modern music. 

00:01:21 Isabel Li 

Shalini is also a founding member of the Lyris Quartet, one of Los Angeles most beloved chamber ensembles. With Lyris, she has performed regularly at Walt Disney Concert Hall on the Green Umbrella series for Jacaranda Music, and helped to found the Here and Now Music Festival in Venice, California, a festival dedicated to the music of living composers in Los Angeles. She joined acclaimed LA ensemble Brightwork New Music in 2019, and also serves as the curator for Brightwork’s Tuesdays at Monk Space series. She currently lives in Los Angeles with her son, husband and two dogs, and spends her free time cooking Indian food and exploring the culinary landscape of Southern California. 

00:02:04 Isabel Li 

Well, Shalini, thank you so much for joining me in this conversation today. 

00:02:09 Shalini Vijayan 

I’m so happy to be with you. 

00:02:11 Isabel Li 

Awesome. I’d like to just get to know you and your story. How do you identify and what communities do you consider yourself a part of? 

00:02:18 Shalini Vijayan 

I use the pronouns she, her, and I. Um, I identify as South Asian. I grew up in an Indian family. My parents immigrated to the US in the sixties to teach at medical school. And I grew up with a great deal of Indian culture. And I’ve spent a lot of time going back and forth to India from the time that I was very young. You know, it’s interesting because I feel like in LA, where I live and work specifically, there is so much overlap between all of our different musical communities. You know, I went to school in New York, and I feel like there I was much more, I’m very connected to the new music community in New York and felt really kind of entrenched in that at the time I was there. And after coming to LA, I realized that, um, there are a lot of musicians doing so many different things. That’s one of the things I love about Los Angeles, actually. And, you know, I’m definitely very, very rooted in the new music community in LA. And that was where I made my first sort of connections when I first moved to Los Angeles. But I also, you know, worked in an orchestra when I first came to LA. I played in the Pacific Symphony for almost ten seasons, and so I became a part of that community as well. And you know, as the years went on, I also became much more involved in the studio music community of LA studio musicians playing on movie scores, playing on television shows, records, what have you, Awards shows, all sorts of things. And these are all very distinct communities in LA in music. But I see a ton of overlap between all of them. There are so many incredibly versatile musicians in Los Angeles that people are able to really very easily move from one of these groups to the other and, you know, with a great deal of success. And I feel like it gives us so much variety in our lives as musicians in LA, you don’t feel like you’re ever just in one lane. You can really occupy all these different kinds of spaces. 

00:04:23 Isabel Li 

Right, yeah. So you’re classically trained, from what I know, and you describe yourself as an advocate for modern music. So why modern music? 

00:04:33 Shalini Vijayan 

That’s a great question. I have have had to answer this question quite a bit over the years, especially to non-musicians. And it’s always an interesting story for me. You know, as a violinist in particular, you know, we have such a storied history of repertoire and pedagogy, and there is such an incredible, um, library of music that we have access to from the very standard classical repertoire. And there is a great deal to be learned about the instrument and about music from playing all that repertoire. I think at some point when I was in high school, I started to become interested in more modern music. And actually I grew up in Davis in Northern California.  

My parents both taught at the university there, at the medical school and in Sacramento. Nearby there was a festival of modern American music that I think still goes on to this day at Cal State University, Sacramento. And it was really a great festival. And at that time, you know, they would bring professional artists, they’d have composers, they’d have commissions, all sorts of things. But at the time that I was like in high school, they also had a junior division to the festival, and I was asked to play a couple pieces in the Festival of, um, Modern Works, and I can’t remember at this time what the pieces were, but it left such a huge impression on me. And I think what I really took away from that experience as a kid is that in my studies as a violinist, I was always being asked to sort of live up to this history and this legacy of violin music and violin playing in Western classical music. And it’s a very high bar. And it’s, um, you know, of course, there’s so much great stuff there. But there was something so freeing about playing this music that had either never been played or not been recorded. So there was nothing to reference in terms of listening to a recording, um, and listening to how you, you know, quote, should be playing it that it made me feel, uh, you know, all this, this freedom to really interpret the music, how I felt, rather than feeling like I had to live up to a standard that had been set for me, you know, decades or centuries before. And I think that really something really clicked for me with that, that I wanted to have that kind of freedom when I, when I was playing. And so from there on out, um, you know, when I went to college and I really sought out opportunities in new music as much as I could. 

00:07:00 Isabel Li 

So you were first exposed to new music when you were in high school. Did that influence your decision to become a musician at all? Or were you already set on becoming a musician and that was just part of what shaped your works over the years. 

00:07:15 Shalini Vijayan 

I think by that time, I had already decided that I wanted to be a musician. I mean, as you know, so many of us as musicians and I think particularly string players, we decide so young because we start our instruments at such a young age and we start studying so early. Um, that I think by that time I, I had decided I wanted to do music, but this sort of opened another door for me that made me realize that it wasn’t just one path in music necessarily. I think it’s very easy as a, as a kid and as a violinist to think you admire these great soloists that you see and, you know, people like Perlman and, you know, Isaac Stern, who were the stars of the time when I was growing up. But, you know, you get to be in high school and you realize that hasn’t happened yet. It’s probably not going to happen. And so, you know, what’s then then what’s your path forward? How do you find a life in music if you’re not going to be one of these stars? And I think, you know, new music really opened up that opportunity for me. And yeah, made me look at things a little differently for sure. 

00:08:18 Isabel Li 

And currently you’re in the contemporary classical music ensemble, Brightwork newmusic, and you curate the ensemble’s concert series, Tuesdays @ Monk Space. So how do you go about curating concerts with music by contemporary or living composers? What do you look for? 

00:08:33 Shalini Vijayan 

Well, right now I’m really focused on trying to represent our new music community in LA at Monk Space, which is such, you know, we have such a diverse community of musicians, not just in the makeup of who the people are making the music or writing the music, but also in just the styles of music. And so I think I try to really represent a very diverse set of aesthetics in our season. Um, you know, everything from, you know, last season we had, uh, Niloufar Shiri, who is a traditional Persian kamancheh player, but she also she can play very in a very traditional way, but she also plays with a jazz pianist. And, you know, it does all this very improvisatory stuff. And, you know, then we would have other programs where everything is very much written out and very through, composed and you know, it’s been a very wide variety. And, you know, when I try to build the season, I try to make sure that it’s really balanced in terms of, you know, the different types of things you’ll be hearing because not every audience member is going to want to engage with every type of music. Um, or, you know, if we if we really stuck to one style and it was just in that language for the whole season, then I feel like we would, you know, alienate potential audience members. But with this, I feel like if we can bring people in for one concert and they’re really into it, then hopefully they’ll come to something else that is new and different for them and be exposed to something that they may really get into after that. So yeah, I think diversity and variety is really where I try to start from. 

00:10:09 Isabel Li 

How does that engage the community? Have you observed audience reception to this type of new music when there are composers from all different types of backgrounds? 

00:10:20 Shalini Vijayan 

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that each composer and each artist brings their own community into the space, which and so that’s another. I feel like another strong reason why I try to make things very different from concert to concert. And, you know, we have some younger players who come in and bring in, you know, everyone from college students to, you know, their friends and family. And then, you know, really established composers. Like this season we have Bill Roper, who is kind of a legend in the music community in LA. Mult instrumentalist and composer who has been around for decades. And, you know, I think people will come out just because they want to see him and he’s such a draw. And, um, you know, I, I also would love to be able to incorporate more world music into the series. Like I said, we did do Niloufar concert, which I felt like I really hoped would like engage with the Persian community in LA as well. And a couple seasons ago we had Rajna Swaminathan, who is, I just think, an incredible artist. Um, she plays mridangam, which is a South Indian percussion instrument, but she also writes for Western instruments, uh, and herself. And we had her and a pianist and then Ganavya, who’s a vocalist who’s amazing. And, you know, Ganavya had her own following. So we had and Rajna has her own following. So we had a whole full audience that night of people who I had never seen in the space before. And that was for me. That’s a success because we’re bringing in new friends and new engagement. And, um, I was really excited about that. When I’m able to make those kinds of connections with new people, then that feels like a success to me. 

00:12:05 Isabel Li 

Certainly. 

00:12:06 Isabel Li 

Let’s hear one of Shalini’s performances. This is an excerpt from the 10th of William Kraft’s “Encounters”, a duologue for violin and marimba, performed here by Shalini Vijayan with Southwest Chamber Music. 

00:12:20 [MUSIC – Encounters X: Duologue for Violin & Marimba] 

00:17:18 Isabel Li 

An excerpt from William Kraft’s Encounters, the 10th of which is called Duologue for Violin and Marimba, that was performed by Shalini Vijayan, the violinist, with Southwest Chamber Music. 

00:17:31 Isabel Li 

And Shalini is here with me in conversation today. We’ve been discussing contemporary music and her involvement in the new music scene, specifically in Los Angeles. 

00:17:40 Isabel Li 

Music is all about community, drawing people together. So going back to how you describe yourself as an advocate for modern music, what are other ways that you have advocated for modern music besides curating the concert series? 

00:17:53 Shalini Vijayan 

Well, over the years, um, you know, I feel like in all the ensembles I’ve been in, there’s been a real focus on commissioning composers and on performing works that have not been, uh, either performed or recorded before. And I feel like the only way to really get the music out there is to, obviously, is to play it and hopefully to be able to record it. We’ve worked especially with the lyrics quartet. We’ve worked with so many young composers in LA either just strictly, you know, contemporary classical composers or even film composers who, um, have works that they’d like to have recorded. And, you know, it’s been great to see a lot of those people go on to really amazing things and to be a part of their journey, uh, and to help support them. And, uh, the other thing that the quartet has been heavily involved in and now Bright Work Ensemble has been involved in as well, is the Here Now music festival, which has been going on in LA for well over a decade now. We were involved in the first, um, seasons of that festival. We’ve been one of the resident ensembles since the very beginning, and that festival is dedicated to the music of LA and Southern California composers. And, um, we have a call for scores every year that we, the four of us in the quartet, are part of the panel that reviews all the scores, along with a lot of our other colleagues, um, who are involved with the festival, and Hugh Levick, who is the artistic director of the festival and has we’ve worked side by side with him on this for a very long time. And that’s also been a fantastic avenue for, um, meeting new composers, hearing new works, having them performed. And the thing I always say about that festival every time it comes around, usually in the spring we have at least three concerts. It’s this incredible coming together of the new music community in Southern California, where all these great composers and all these amazing players come together and play these series of concerts, because there’s such a vast number of pieces that end up getting programmed. They can’t rely on just like one group or one or two groups to play them. So it really pulls in a lot of players from all over town. And I don’t know, it always just feels like a really fun time, a fun weekend for all of us to see each other and connect. And, um, and again, just build our community to be even stronger. 

00:20:20 Isabel Li 

That’s really cool. How do you ignite interest in new music? Because this is a genre that I think is slightly underrepresented or just underrepresented in general in both the classical music community and the music industry as a whole. 

00:20:35 Shalini Vijayan 

That’s a great question, and I think it’s a really important question for our whole industry and community. How do you engage people in new music and get them into a concert? Um, you know, I think one of the biggest hurdles for classical music in general, I will say, um, when I talk to people about why they don’t want to come to a concert or why they don’t want to, you know, let’s say, go see the LA Phil or, you know, wherever, whatever city they’re in, the major cultural music institution. I think there is a misconception generally that, oh, it’s, you know, I have to be dressed a certain way or I it’s going to be really stuffy. And, um, I, you know, I don’t know what to wear or I don’t know how I’m supposed to dress or how I’m supposed to act when I’m in the concert. Am I going to clap at the wrong time? You know, is it going to be really long? And, you know, and I and I get it, you know, I mean, I understand why that would be uncomfortable for a lot of people.  

And it’s not, um, it’s something that necessarily everyone has grown up with or that it’s been a part of their life. So I think it’s really up to us, as you know, when we’re on the side of programming concerts or putting together festivals or whatever, um, that we make things more accessible in terms of, um, concert length and interaction with audience. And, um, you know, I think it’s I know I’ve been told so many times and I really think it’s important that I think audiences love it when performers talk to them, when they talk about the music and, and set things up for a listener. I think that puts a kind of context on things that makes it so much easier for perhaps a new audience member, someone who’s never come to a concert before to feel at ease and feel like, okay, I know what I’m getting into.  

One of our, actually our former executive director at Brightwork, Sarah Wass, who was fantastic, and I was very happy to work with when I was just starting out programming, Monk Space had the idea of putting on the program the running time of the pieces, and I think even that is just something that, like, can prepare people for what they’re getting into when they’re about to listen to something new. And in terms of the music itself, I think that if someone, especially a younger person, doesn’t feel like they have any connection to Beethoven or Brahms or Mozart, they might actually feel more connected to someone who is their age or a little older.  

Someone who has had similar life experiences to them, or grown up in the same era as them, rather than someone who grew up, you know, in the seventeen hundreds. You know, there can be more of a real connection there, and that that person is writing this music and reflection of their life and their experiences. And, um, you know, again, I think that kind of context is important for a listener. And yeah. And then just lastly, I would say also, I feel like our space at Monk space is very inviting. It’s very low key. It’s, um, you know, it’s casual, it’s comfortable. Role. Um, we have, you know, snacks and a bar and, you know, everyone is very relaxed at intermission and has a good time. And I mean, for me, every time we host one of those concerts, I feel like I’m hosting a little party, you know? That’s what it feels like for me. And that’s what I want it to feel like for the audience as well. 

00:23:52 Isabel Li 

That brings up a really good point in that new music can make classical music or a new classical music, contemporary music, more accessible to different audiences. And certainly I’ve definitely heard the complaint from people over the years about classical music being a little too uptight. Would you say that these are two different genres? 

00:24:11 Shalini Vijayan 

I think that there is overlap, and I think, you know, for an ensemble like ours, like Brightwork, we have chosen to make our focus new music. So that’s our thing. That’s what we do. Um, and, uh, all of our concerts and our programming reflect that. Very rarely do we do anything that’s not considered a contemporary piece. Um, but, you know, if you do look at some of our major institutions, like I think the LA Phil and I think the San Francisco Symphony, um, earlier, you know, like in the nineties under MTT, really started to pave the way for incorporating contemporary music into a standard classical format. And, you know, I think that’s been very important. And I think it’s really changed the way that orchestras have programmed across the country. And there has been such a nurturing of contemporary music in larger spaces. Now that I think that kind of overlap has started to happen much more frequently. I think that in more conservative settings, sometimes there’s pushback against that. And even even, you know, in some of the places that I play, you know, sometimes with with the lyrics quartet, um, we are asked to just purely program standard classical repertoire, and we will occasionally throw in a little short piece, you know, just to try and put something in there, you know, something that’s very accessible. Um, and, uh, you know that we know the audience will like so that we can help them, you know, kind of get over that fear of connecting to a newer piece. And I, I think in some ways, that’s where the path forward lies, is that we have to integrate those things, you know, in order to keep kind of the old traditions of classical music alive. I think we have to keep the newer tradition alive as well, and find a way to put them in the same space. 

00:26:00 Isabel Li 

I certainly agree with that. 

00:26:01 Isabel Li 

Let’s hear more of Shalini’s work in new music. This is a performance of the first movement of Atlas Pumas by Gabriela Ortiz. Violinist Shalini Vijayan is joined by percussionist Lynn Vartan. 

00:26:18 [MUSIC – Atlas Pumas, mvt 1 by Gabriela Ortiz] 

00:29:21 Isabel Li 

The first movement of Gabriela Ortiz’s Atlas Pumas played here by violinist Shalini Vijian, and Lynn Vartan plays the marimba. 

00:29:30 Isabel Li 

And Shalini is actually joining us here for a conversation about new music, performances, identity, and representation. 

00:29:38 Isabel Li 

Many Asian American Pacific Islander artists in music have varying relationships between their art and their identity. I was wondering, to what extent do you feel that perhaps your South Asian identity intersects or influences the work that you do with music? 

00:29:54 Shalini Vijayan 

Growing up, um, you know, I grew up in a in a university town in Northern California and, you know, a lot of highly educated and, you know, kids of professors and, you know, but still not the most terribly diverse place. And then going into classical music. And this was, you know, in the early nineties when I went to college, um, it still was not a particularly it was very much not a diverse place at all. And, um, there certainly were a lot of Asian students at, um, Manhattan School of Music where I did my my studies.  

But I would say it was a solid decade before I was ever in any sort of classical music situation where there was another South Asian musician. I very, very rarely met any South Asian musicians, and it wasn’t until I went to the New World Symphony in the early late nineties, early two thousand, and I was a musician there. I was a fellow in that program there for three years that I walked into the first rehearsal, and there were three other South Asian, I think, of Indian descent musicians in the orchestra, and I was absolutely blown away because I literally had not, um, other than here and there at some festivals, I had not met any other South Asian classical musicians.  

So it was really like that was the hallmark moment for me. It was a really big deal. And coming with my family, coming from India, you know, there is such a strong tradition of Indian classical music, of Carnatic music and Hindustani music. And, um, it’s such a long, long tradition. And, you know, the people who have studied it and lived with it are, you know, they study it their whole lives to be proficient in it. And it’s such an incredible, incredible art form and something that I admire so much. And I did as a kid. Take a few lessons here and there. I took some Carnatic singing lessons, um, and a little bit of tabla lessons when I was very young. Um, but I think somewhere in middle school or high school, I kind of realized that it was, for me at least, I wasn’t, um, able to put enough time into both because both of them, you know, playing the violin in a Western classical style and then studying Indian classical music require a tremendous amount of effort and a tremendous amount of study. And I at that point chose to go with Western classical music, because that’s what I’d been doing since I was five years old. But there has always kind of been this longing for me to be more connected to Indian classical music. Um, I’ll go back again to Rajna. When I presented Rajna Swaminathan on Monk Space a couple of years ago, it was a really meaningful thing for me, because that’s kind of what I’d always wanted to see was a joining together of that tradition, the Indian tradition with the Western tradition. And, um, I’m so happy that I’m starting to see that more and more with a lot of the artists that are coming up now. But at the time when I was young, it just it felt almost insurmountable that to to find a way to bring the two together. And, um, I remember very clearly as a kid listening to this, um, there was an album that Philip Glass did with Ravi Shankar, and I thought that was so cool at the time. And I used to listen to it over and over again because I just again, I was so amazed that these things could come together and in a, in a kind of successful way. Um, but yeah, there is, you know, there there’s a part of me that would still love to go back and explore that more that, that side of it. Um, and but I will say also, I’m very happy now to see a lot more South Asian faces when I, you know, go to concerts on stage and in the audience. And, you know, a lot of composers that I’ve worked with now, um, of South Asian descent, it’s been, you know, I’ve worked with Reena Esmail and Anuj Bhutani and Rajna and, um, there’s so many more, and I’m so glad to see how they’re all incorporating their connection to their culture to, to this, you know, Western kind of format of classical music. And they’re all doing it in different ways. And it’s it’s really amazing. 

00:34:22 Isabel Li 

That’s fantastic. 

00:34:24 Isabel Li 

I was wondering if you could maybe describe what this merging or combination of different styles entails. Do you think this makes it more accessible to audiences of two different cultures? 

00:34:36 Shalini Vijayan 

For me, one example, before I started running the series at Tuesdays at Monk Space, Aron Kallay, who is our Bright Work artistic director, had asked me to come and do a solo show on Monk Space, which I did in November of 2019. 

00:34:52 Shalini Vijayan 

And at the time, I wanted to commission a piece that did exactly that, that, that, um, involved some sort of Indian classical instrument or kind of the language of Indian classical music. And so I actually did reach out to Reena Esmail, and she wrote me a very cool piece called blaze that was for tabla and violin. Um, and I really had so much fun doing that. And Reena, Reena really has a very fluid way of writing for the violin, which she actually was a violinist, too. So she’s she’s really good at doing that. But being able to write for any melodic instrument or for the voice, which she does quite a bit as well, and incorporating sort of the tonality of Indian classical music, which obviously has its own scales and, um, has its own harmonic, harmonic world that is different from the Western world, um, but finds a way to translate that into the written note notation that we require as, uh, Western classical musicians. And, you know, I think that’s the biggest gap to bridge, is that in Indian classical music, nothing is notated. Everything is handed down in an oral tradition, um, over the generations. And for us, everything is notated. And in Indian classical music, you know, there’s much more improvisation. And now, of course, with modern classical music, there now is a lot more improvisation involved. But in our old standard tradition, obviously there isn’t. And in the way that we’re trained, mostly we’re not trained to be improvisers. And um, so it’s it was great. She has a great way of writing so that it kind of sounds like things are being tossed off and sounding sounds like they’re being improvised, but they are actually fully notated, um, which I really appreciated. 

00:36:50 Isabel Li 

Yeah. 

00:36:51 Isabel Li 

So your career has spanned orchestras, recording ensembles, chamber music. Having had so much experience in these types of performance, what does representation in classical music mean to you? 

00:37:04 Shalini Vijayan 

Well, representation is is very important because we’re talking about a tradition that was built on white men from centuries ago, European white men. And and it’s again, it’s an incredible tradition and there’s so much great repertoire. But I’m going to circle back to what you were saying or what you asked me about connecting to audiences and, you know, connecting to audiences with new music. It’s I think people like to see themselves reflected in the art that they choose. They choose to consume. And, you know, whether that’s movies or television or music, I think that’s how you connect with your audience is by being a bit of a mirror. 

I think the only way that we can really continue to connect with a diverse audience is by having that type of diverse representation on our stages and on our recordings. And again, also not just the people, but the types of music, too. You know, musical tastes run wide, genres run wide as well. And it’s I think It’s good for all of us to be exposed to a lot of different kinds of music, to figure out what we connect with the most. And, um, yeah, the only way we can do that is by really, you know, opening our arms to a, a much wider variety of styles of music. And so I, you know, I mentioned improvisation, improvisation earlier. And I think that is something that’s now starting to happen so much more in modern classical music. And, you know, I think there’s something about the energy that a player has when they’re improvising that is maybe not something that an audience member could quantify verbally, but there’s a looseness and a freedom there that I think, you know, for a lot of audience members, they probably really can connect to. And, you know, that’s a lot of why people go and listen to jazz is because there’s so much freedom and there’s so much improvisation.  

I’ve been very lucky to be able to work with, um, Wadada Leo Smith, who’s a trumpet player and composer. I’ve worked with him for probably almost ten years now. And um, through Wadada, actually, I have learned to become much more comfortable with improvising on stage and not within a jazz language of any kind or any kind of harmonic structure necessarily, but within the language of his music, which is very unique and very open and very free and, um, but also has a really strong core in its connection to history. And, um, you know, he’s written a lot of amazing works about the civil rights movement and about a lot of, you know, important moments in history for our country. And, um, that’s been a real learning experience for me to connect with him in that, in that way and learn from him and learn to be more comfortable with improvisation. Because I think growing up, improvisation for me always meant jazz, and that was not a language I was comfortable in. And um, or even, you know, jazz or rock music or folk music or whatever, you know, it was just not something that came naturally to me as a kid to, I mean, I listened to all of it. I listened to everything when I was a kid, but I never played in any of those styles. And I think the older you get, the scarier it gets to start branching out in those ways. But, um, I think, uh, that’s been a an incredible, like, new branch of my life in the last decade has been working with Wadada. 

[MUSIC – “Dred Scott, 1857,” from Ten Freedom Summers, by Wadada Leo Smith] 

00:42:23 Isabel Li 

An excerpt of Wadada Leo Smith’s music to give you a sense of the jazz influences in these types of contemporary new music pieces that also touch on pieces of history. This was an excerpt from his album, Ten Freedom Summers, which also consists of compositions based on pieces of American history. For example, what we just heard was from a piece called Dred Scott, 1857. 

00:42:49 Isabel Li 

Now that I realize that we’ve been having a conversation about new music, I realize that, hmm, when does new music really start? So if you take a look at maybe music history, when does new music really become new music? 

00:43:07 Shalini Vijayan 

I guess it depends on who you ask, probably. Um, it’s it’s pretty recent. You know, it has to be really legitimately pretty new. And, um, again, you know, if you ask an audience member, um, and I think of some of my friends or family who are maybe who are not musicians who come to concerts, and I’m always so interested in talking to them and hearing their opinions about things. Um, you know, they will listen to Bartok and say, oh, that sounds like new music to me. But, you know, Bartok, Bartok passed away a long time ago, and it’s, you know, and for me, that’s more like canon now. You know, that’s like now for me, part of the the standard repertoire. But there was a time when Bartok was new music. And I think for, you know, maybe the listeners who are more comfortable with the very diatonic, you know, world of Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, then something like Bartok really does sound so modern for me. Boy, maybe around the time that minimalism started, you know, John Adams and Steve Reich, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, all of that for me feels like maybe that’s the older like the The edge of new music now even though that was that would be the eighties, probably seventies 80s, you know, but that we’re talking about like, you know, fifty years ago. So yeah, I mean, it’s not that new, but those are all still living composers. So maybe, maybe that’s part of what it is for me is that it’s the composers of our era, the composers who are alive, who we can communicate with and ask questions of. And, um, you know, at the very least, if you can’t talk to John Adams, you can talk to somebody who has worked directly with him and get their impressions of how something should be played, um, as opposed to composers who have been gone for hundreds of years. And you can’t have that level of communication with them. I think that, for me is what new music, new music is about. It’s about working with living composers and, um, having that type of interaction. 

00:45:15 Isabel Li 

Yeah. So would the word or the phrase contemporary classical music, be a little oxymoronic in a sense? 

00:45:26 Shalini Vijayan 

No, I don’t think so. I think it’s still part of the same tradition. Um, yeah. I really do think it is, because I think there is a lineage there. Um, for a lot of composers, not all of them, um, that I mean, I think particularly if you’re writing for, let’s say, an orchestra or a string quartet or sort of one of these very standard classical ensembles. Um, even if you’re writing in a very new language and you’re writing in a very different way, I think there is still a through line to the canon of classical music. I guess for me, new music and classical music are not mutually exclusive. I think they can be the same. So I don’t I don’t think they’re totally different. I think that there is a lot of a lot of overlap. 

00:46:16 Isabel Li 

For sure, considering how new music fits into the classical music or the classical music industry as a whole. Have you noticed any sorts of shifts in the classical music industry in the past several decades in regards to diversity, equity, inclusion? And have you just noticed any changes? 

00:46:35 Shalini Vijayan 

I have noticed some changes. I mean, I think that most organizations in this country are making an effort to be more inclusive in their programming now. And, um, you know, another another South Asian composer who I just think is fantastic is Nina Shekhar. And, um, she has had pieces played by the New York Phil for the last couple seasons. I mean, you know, so on on major, major stages, I feel like now I’m seeing more representation and that is definitely Encouraging and, um, you know, uh, same for Anuj and Rajna and Reena. They’ve all, you know, had their works done by major ensembles. And, um, I think I think there is definitely movement in that direction, for sure. I think it could always be more.  

I think also for women and women composers, women performers, I think that has also always been a struggle to find enough representation of women composers and you know, especially if like as I mentioned before, when you’re in a situation where an organization asks you to program a concert, like, let’s say, for our quartet and wants much more standard repertoire than it does limit you, you know, how because there isn’t much from the older canon. You know, there is. You know, there’s Fanny Mendelssohn and Clara Schumann and, um, you know, I think in the last five to ten years they’ve both been played a lot more, which is great. But, you know, I think, uh, there’s so many amazing female composers right now that I think are starting to get much more recognition. And I think that just needs to be more, more and more, um, but, uh, you know, that is why, again, like on those programs, sometimes we try to just sneak one modern piece in because it’s important for those voices to be heard as well. But yes, I do see some forward movement in that direction with, um, classical programming. And, you know, you just have to hope that the intent is always genuine in those situations. And I think, um, you know, I think that’s the most important thing. And giving a platform to those voices is really important. 

00:48:59 Isabel Li 

How would you go about arts advocacy during this current time when, well, the arts are being defunded and devalued by our current administration and how everything is going on right now? 

00:49:10 Shalini Vijayan 

Yeah, it’s really, really difficult right now. And, um, you know, I think a lot of arts organizations are losing a lot of government funding. Obviously, I know of a couple projects that lost their NEA funding because of DEI, and which is so disheartening. And, um, I think, you know, there’s going to be a lot of leaning on private donors to try and, uh, make up that difference or, you know, private foundations to make up the difference in funding, hopefully. And, um, uh, you know, it’s yeah, it’s scary. It’s  a scary time. And I think, you know, even for private funding and, um, private donors, it’s, you know, everyone is feeling stressed and feeling concerned about our future right now, just as a country. and there’s so much uncertainty. And, um, but I think people who really rely on the arts for all the things that it can provide, you know, an escape and pleasure and, you know, stimulation of a different kind. And especially in a time like this, when you want to be able to get away from maybe what’s going on around you, you know, I’m hoping we can find a way to really come together and, um, kind of, you know, rally around each other and find a way to support each other. But, um, I think it is going to be hard for the next few years if we can’t find ways to replace that funding that so many people have lost. And I certainly don’t think that anyone wants to back away from the progress that’s been made with inclusion and representation, you know, just to get funding. So I know we have to be very creative with our path ahead and find a way to, to keep doing what we’re doing in this current environment. 

00:51:07 Isabel Li 

Yeah, on a brighter note, I read about your work with Lyris Quartet earlier this year when you presented a concert with Melodia Mariposa called Altadena Strong with the Lyris Quartet, raising funds for those who have been affected by the LA fires. Can you talk a bit about the power of music? And we’re going to end on a stronger note here about the power of music in bringing communities together and accelerating community healing. 

00:51:31 Shalini Vijayan 

Well, I have to say that concert was really a special one for us. You know, um, so many musicians were affected by the fires in LA. And, you know, I, I’ve lived in LA for over twenty years now, almost twenty five years and, um, certainly seen my share of wildfires and disasters, but this one hit so much more close to home than any of the other ones have. And, you know, I know at least twenty five people who lost their homes in between the Palisades and Altadena and Altadena in particular.  

When I moved to LA, it was a place where a lot of musicians were moving to because you could it was cheaper and you could get a lot of space, and it’s beautiful. And, you know, they really built a beautiful community there among all the musicians out there. And it’s just heartbreaking, um, to see how many of them have lost everything. And I have to say, Irina Voloshina, who is the woman who runs Melodia Mariposa, and just an amazing violinist and an amazing, wonderful, warm, generous person. You know, she started that series in her driveway during COVID as a way to just keep music going during the pandemic, and it really turned into something so great. And she’s, you know, got a whole organization with her now and puts on multiple concerts a year. And when she asked us if we would play that concert for the community in Altadena is, you know, there’s no question that we were going to do it. I mean, we absolutely jumped at the chance to support her and support the organization and that community. And people really came out for that concert and were so excited to be there and were so warm and, um, you know, and and she talked to the crowd and really connected with everybody on a very personal level, because she also lost her home in Altadena and, um, you know, it was it was a really meaningful show for all of us. And again, those are the moments where you realize that you can use this art to really connect with people that you may have never met before and show your your love for them, you know, through music, as corny as that may sound, but it’s true. 

00:53:54 Isabel Li 

Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much, Shalini, for sharing your visions, your knowledge with new music and community building with us today. Thank you so much for being on Obbligato. 

00:54:07 Shalini Vijayan 

Thank you so much for having me, Isabel. It was really a pleasure. 

00:54:10 Isabel Li 

What a wonderful conversation that was with LA-based violinist Shalini Vijayan. If you go to kpfa.org, you can check out more of her work. I put the links to two of her ensembles, Brightwork New Music and Lyris Quartet up on kpfa.org. And thank you for listening to our conversation here on Obbligato on Apex Express. 

00:54:32 Isabel Li 

We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. 

00:54:42 Isabel Li 

APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, and Cheryl Truong. Tonight’s show was produced by Isabel Li. Thanks to the team at KPFA for their support. Have a great night. 

[OUTRO MUSIC] 

The post APEX Express – 11.13.25 – Obbligato with Violinist Shalini Vijayan appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

The post APEX Express – November 6, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Tonight on APEX Express Host Miko Lee speaks with spouses of detained refugees. We hear about the similarities and challenges of Hmong and Nepali speaking Bhutanese refugees. We also speak with Asian Law Caucus’ Aisa Villarosa about the ongoing campaigns for freedom that ALC has been leading along with a host of other community based organizations.

Join us:

November 3, 4pm Pacific time, 7pm Eastern Time, Join us for “We Belong Here, Bhutanese & Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness” a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations. bit.ly/WBH-2025

TAKE ACTION

Rising Voices campaign for Lue Yang

Mohan Karki’s GoFundMe

And please help support these organizations working to support detained and deported folx:

Asian Law Caucus

Asian Refugees United

Ba Lo Project in Vietnam

Collective Freedom in Vietnam & Laos

Asian Prisoner Support Committee & New Light Wellness in Cambodia

November 1–2, people nationwide are joining the Disappeared In America Weekend of Action to stand up for immigrant families and defend due process. Actions include protests at Home Depots, candlelight Freedom Vigils, and Day of the Dead events honoring lives lost to detention.

We Belong! Transcript

Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express.This is your host, Miko Lee. Today we’re talking about detentions and potential deportations and the atrocities that the Trump administration is creating in our communities.We originally recorded this episode a month ago, and today is October 29th. 2025 and I have with me Aisa Villarosa a lawyer with Asian Law Caucus, giving us an update in the cases that we’re talking about. Welcome Aisa Apex Express.

Aisa Villarosa: Thanks so much, Miko.

Miko Lee: Tonight we’re gonna be talking with two spouses of detained folks. One is a Nepali speaking Bhutanese community member, and the other is Hmong community member. In the time since we recorded this, there has been a big update with Lue Young’s case, and I wonder if you could provide us with that update.

Aisa Villarosa: Miko since we last spoke, due to some really hard fought campaigning, both behind the scenes and drawing upon allies across Michigan and really across the country. Lue Yang, received a successful pardon from Governor Gretchen Whitmer. We actually received word shortly before Lue Yang was set to be placed on a very large deportation flight. Once we got word of the pardon, it was off to the races for the legal team to quickly draft some emergency motions for Lue Yang and to realize the power of the pardon before the deportation.

Miko Lee: Can we back up for a moment and give for an audience a sense of what that means? Lue Young was incarcerated at a detention facility, which Trump has called the FedEx of detention facilities in, Louisana, and explain to us what happened to him and the other members that were suddenly pulled together onto an airplane.

Aisa Villarosa: When these removal flights happen, there’s so much confusion, there’s so much fear that families undergo, and often it’s due to the perseverance of the families that we honestly even know where folks are. Shortly before what we call final staging happens, someone is moved from, in Lue’s case, a facility in Michigan to a facility like Alexandria in Louisiana where the planes do take off  from. Families typically look up their loved one on something called the “ice detainee locator.” What’s challenging is when final staging starts. Often that person completely disappears from the detainee locator or information gets a bit scrambled.

Because ICE has a bit of a sealed box as far as even telling families where, their loved one is. Families are either left to guess or rely on each other. So for Lue Yang and the pardon what is critical for folks to know is that as powerful, as rare as a pardon is, I can’t stress how extraordinary this is in these very difficult times. A pardon does not instantly, allow someone to say, walk out of an ice facility. There’s, numerous legal filings that need to happen. That is why , the team was so up against the clock.

Miko Lee: So let’s break this down a little bit around a pardon. What does a pardon mean in our current system? Because as a lay person, you think, oh, they’re pardoned. That means they’re free and they can go home and be with their family. Tell us a little bit about what a pardon means in our legal system right now.

Aisa Villarosa: A pardon is different from a criminal expungement, which folks might be familiar with. In Lue’s case, for example, when Lue was younger, he successfully expunged this record, in criminal court. The challenge is that immigration court, is basically the entity that issues something called a “final order of removal.” This document, is basically what powers deportation for folks. An expungement does not get at the final removal order.

However, a pardon has that more direct link. The pardon has the weight of what we call “vacating a conviction.” To explain more legalese and hopefully folks can stay with me. A final order of removal is an immigration court order document where , it gives ice the power to do all these deportations We’re seeing for the refugee community that Lue Yang belongs to. Often these are quite old orders, and so sometimes a loved one might be detained and they might not even realize that they have a criminal conviction or a final order of removal.

Miko Lee: Thank you so much for breaking that down. So we described how he was pulled off the plane that was going for his deportation. Tell us where Lue is at right now. What is happening with his case?

Aisa Villarosa: The call to action very much remains what it has been, which is we’re calling to bring Lue home. At the moment, Lue is in a facility in Louisiana. Our hope is that Lue can return to Michigan. There is also a call to release Lue on a supervised release.

The other component of the legal journey for Lue is something called a motion to reopen. Basically this is how the full weight of the pardon is realized. The motion to reopen calls on the Board of Immigration Appeals to reopen Lue’s case, because years ago he got that final removal order, so when someone gets that order, typically their immigration case is closed.

This petition says, Hey, he got a pardon. Please reopen Lue’s case because the underlying conviction that led to the final removal order. Has been pardoned, right? We are hoping that this motion to reopen will be heard in front of the Board of Immigration Appeals, that we can get a great result and that as the campaign calls for that, Lue can come home.

Miko Lee: I know lawyers like you are doing incredible work around the scenes. You did not sleep for two days, filing paperwork to be able to make sure that Lue was pulled off that plane. But what can regular people, what can our audience do to get involved right now?

Aisa Villarosa: There’s myriad actions along this really terrible deportation pipeline. We’re seeing that folks who might not have, any deep knowledge of the immigration system can still be so impactful. We have partners in LA in the faith community and they’ve started working with community organizations to do things like accompaniment, which is, joining community members like Lue, who often have these ice check-ins.

As folks have seen on the news, these check-ins can be really risky because that is where ice arrests can happen. If someone misses their ice check-in, typically that means that a warrant is issued, that immigration forces can come after you. In these cases, community members, particularly folks who are US citizens, accompaniment can be a great way to dig in to show up for our immigrant and refugee siblings.

Miko Lee: Thank you so much for breaking down how folks can get involved. It’s so important right now in a time where we feel so utterly helpless to be able to make change. Now we’re gonna go back to listen to our interview that is with the two spouses, Tika, Basnet, and Ann Vue, and also our current guest, Aisa Villarosa

Tika and Ann they’re part of a horrible club, which is both of their spouses are currently in detention from our immigration system. I just wanna start on a real personal note in a way that I often do with my guests. Anne, I just would love to hear from you, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Ann Vue: Thank you again, Miko and Isa, for having me on. We are Hmong. We helped Americans during the Vietnam War. In Laos, a lot of our pilots needed a communication. Because we’re indigenous and we are in the mountains they were able to speak with us and use us. Our Hmong, helped a lot of the pilots rescued a lot, like thousands and thousands of Americans, so that they can make it back home.

That is our contribution to the American people. When we were brought to America, was to resettle because of humanitarian purpose. Our legacy of helping Americans with the war. that is who we are and what we bring to America. That’s who I am. I’m actually the first generation Hmong American. I was born right here in the capital of Lansing, Michigan.

Miko Lee: Thanks so much ann. Tika, can you share who are your people and what legacy you carry with you?

Tika Basnet: Hi, my name is Tika Basnet. I am Bhutanese Nepali community. My parents and all the Bhutanese, they ran away from Bhutan in 1990 due to the ethnic cleansing. They came to Nepal, seeking for asylum, and that is where we born. I was born in Nepal, in refugee camp. Even though I was born in Nepal, Nepal never gave us identity. They never give us citizenship. We were known as Bhutanese Nepali, but as known as Stateless. My husband also born in Nepal in a refugee camp.

Miko Lee: Thank you. Aisa, I’m gonna ask the same question for you Aisa, that works at Asian Law Caucus. Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Aisa Villarosa: So much love to you, Miko and to you Ann and Tika for being here today. I just am, I’m so honored. My name is Aisa and I carry the love and, Maki Baka spirit of Filipino Americans both in my family across the diaspora. A little bit about the Filipino American story. We came to the United States as part of the colonial machine. The first Filipinos were brought as part of the Spanish Gallian trade. We made California home, parts of Lueisiana home, and it’s quite a contrast to a lot of the sort of model minority seduction that many of my people, and myself as a younger person tended to fall into that if we kept our heads down, if we were quiet, we would be left alone.

I’m struck because at this moment of just unprecedented government attacks, so many of our communities have this story where someone somewhere said to us, yeah, just keep your head down and it’ll be fine. We’re seeing the exact opposite, that this is the time to really use our voices, both individually and as one. I’m also an artist and try to infuse that into my work in fighting government systems.

Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. I will say I’m Miko. I am fifth generation Chinese American. I grew up knowing that my family was full of fighters that built the railroads, worked in the gold mines in laundromats and restaurants, and my parents walked with Dr. King and Cesar Chavez and Dolores Huerta, and I was raised in a family of social justice activists. I feel like our legacy is to continue that work and to fight for the rights of our peoples. I’m so honored to have both of all three of you powerful women join me today. As I was saying in the beginning, Tika and Anne are sadly a part of this club nobody wants to be a part of with the sudden, unexpected, harmful detentions of both of your husbands. I wonder if you can each just share the story about what happened and how you first found out about your husband being detained. Let’s start with you Tika.

Tika Basnet: My husband got his removal in 2014 when he was just 17 years old, high school student going from school to home. He’s a teenager and with his friend, they were playing around and they wanna go home really fast. They just cross from private property. That is where someone saw and call 9 1 1.

We came from the culture that we love to go people home , walking around, playing around. My husband came here in 2011. The incident happened on 2013. He just, came here without knowing culture, without knowing languages, So he has no idea.

So when somebody called 9 1 1, he could not explain what happened. First of all, English is his second language, he was barely here without knowing rules and regulation, without knowing culture.

The police took him to jail, gave a lot of charges. My husband doesn’t know what are those charges? At that time, nobody explained, this is the three charges you got, and this could lead to deportation. He feel guilty without knowing those charges. He trusts [00:14:00] Nepali translate guy, and he told my husband, if you don’t say I’m guilty, you will end up in prison for 20 to 25 years, but if you say I’m guilty, you’ll go home.

My husband said, guilty. At that time, neither criminal lawyer told my husband, if you say I’m guilty, you’ll end up getting deport. Deport to the country that you are you never born. Deport To the country, you doesn’t even speak their language. The lawyer did not explain my husband you will not gonna get your green card. You cannot apply your citizenship in your life. If those things the lawyer told my husband at that time, he will never gonna say, I am guilty to the crime that he did not even commit. When they tried to deport my husband back then, Bhutan say, he’s not my citizenship, he’s not from my country, We don’t know this guy. He’s not belongs to here.

When US Embassy reach out to, Nepal, do you know this guy? They told, ICE no, we don’t know this guy, like he’s not belongs here. The ICE officer, told my husband, we can let you go, you need to come here, like order of supervision every three months, every six months, whenever we call you. It been 11 years. My husband is following rules and regulation. He never did any violation after that.

He got married, he has a life, he pay taxes. He was taking care of his family and in 11 years he was doing everything. In 2025 for the first time they target Bhutanese Nepali community. I knew that this is the last time I’m gonna see my husband. I broke down. When they detained my husband in April 8, I was eight months pregnant. We dream a lot of things we are gonna take care of our daughter. We are gonna buy home, we are gonna work, we are gonna give her the life that we, I’m sorry.

Miko Lee: Totally. Okay.

Tika Basnet: I never thought like Bhutanese community can, like deport. Like my parent already go through this trauma, when Bhutan throw them away due to ethnic cleansing and same thing happening to us. It is unbelievable. I cannot believe that, we’re going through this again and I don’t know when this gonna be stopped. I don’t know whether like my husband gonna come home.

It is been five month and I really want my husband back. My daughter is, three month old. She need her dad in life ’cause I cannot provide everything by myself. My husband is the main provider for her aging parent. ’cause even now they cannot pay bills. I’m fighting for my husband case and I want my husband back. He deserve second chance because if you see his record is clean, like for one incident that happened like 12 years ago, that cannot define my husband.

I cannot believe that my husband is able to get deport to the country that doesn’t even accept. I don’t know whether he gonna get killed. Whether he gonna disappear, I don’t know what will happen to him. I don’t know if it is last time I’m gonna see him.

Miko Lee: Tika, thank you so much for sharing your story. Just to recap really briefly, your husband, Mohan Karki when he was a teenager, newly arrived in the country, was leaving high school, walked with his friends through a backyard and was racially profiled. The neighbor called police because he was trespassing on property. He was born at a refugee camp. Is that right?

Tika Basnet: Yes.

Miko Lee: There was not property that was like person’s property on that refugee camp. So that whole concept of walking across somebody’s land was something he was not aware of. He had an interpreter that did not give correct information. And so he signed something, including a deportation order, that he wasn’t even aware of until recently when he was put into detention. Is that right?

Tika Basnet: Yes. Yes.

Miko Lee: Right now he’s in detention. You live in Ohio, but he’s in detention in Michigan, right?

Tika Basnet: Yes.

Miko Lee: Okay, Tika, let’s talk about Mohans case and what’s happening. He’s held in detention right now in a detention facility in Michigan. What is going on with his case?

Tika Basnet: His criminal attorney file, a Motion to Redeem asking BIA to send that, case back to Georgia. His case, that happened in 2013. Our attorney just submit documentation where he’s asking to release my husband because it’d been five month. He’s not risk to the community. He’s not risk to the flight ’cause he doesn’t have no one in Bhutan. He doesn’t have no one in Nepal. All family is in here. His community love him ,he has family that loves him. We also get lot of documentations as a proof telling ICE that my husband is not risk to the community or to the flight.

Miko Lee: Thank you. He has a a four month old baby that he has yet to meet. So that is a powerful reason to stay. As Tikas pointing out, the lawyer just submitted documentation along with 50 letters of support from the community from employers, from family members, all saying why he should stay in this country.

Thank you so much for sharing. Anne, i’m wondering if you could share about what happened to your husband. He was also born in a refugee camp, right?

Ann Vue: Lue was born in Nangkai, Thailand refugee camp in 1978. In1979 his parents and him and his older brother Granted urgent humanitarian reasons for or for public benefit. They made it to America right before Halloween.

The early nineties, me even being the first generation American here, racism played a lot. We all went through that piece and our parents not speaking English at the same time, they were going to school themselves so that they can learn our English language, .

They weren’t able to teach us growing up. We had to fend for ourselves. I would say my husband he went out with some friends. He did not commit the crime. But of course now that is brought back to him, he understood about his particular case is second attempt, home invasion.

Nobody was harmed. He was in the vehicle, in the backseat when he was caught. He didn’t wanna partake, but he didn’t wanna stop them either ’cause to him it was like, if I don’t partake, then I have nothing to do with it. . Because if I do, then they might not be my friends anymore. It’s just a part of growing up as a youth.

Because he was there, and then would receive a court appointed attorney, and then provide it very similar to Tika’s too. Had an interpreter, that was explaining to them, was provided bad legal advice. He had no knowledge about how this would impact his immigration status. It was advised by their attorney, take the plea it’s easier, and you probably serve less than a year. You’ll be out, you’ll only be in the county jail anyways ’cause you didn’t really commit the crime and technically it should have been a misdemeanor. But because you’re an accomplice, that kind of falls under this category. So he took the plea, he served 10 months in a county jail.

He actually was released for good behavior. He even finished his probation soon because he paid all of his stuff off. He even finished a youth advocate program for anybody that committed crimes between the age of 18 to 21. I just saw this form the other day and I was reading it and it talks about, the one thing about our parents, experiencing the war and coming to America, they don’t talk about it.

A lot of us are from communist countries. We are very afraid to voice our voices, because someone can take action. Our parents never talked about it. I read what he wrote to his, youth coordinator, he felt so bad about what he did. He created disappointment for his parents and he understands, there are sacrifices that got us here to America.

He literally wrote all of this down, i’m going to be a better person. I’m going to make my parents proud now that I understand their sacrifices. They asked him, ” what was your upbringing like?” He wrote, “poor” and the coordinator wrote on the bottom of his comments said, “Lue is remorseful for what has happened and he wants to be a better person. I have no other questions. The training is complete.” He doesn’t need any further, support and believes that he will move forward to be a better person.

That’s literally what they wrote on the document. Then fast forwarding to 1999 that’s when, immigration showed up at his house. Him and I would meet in 2000, and then we’d be married in 2001. We’d celebrate. Almost 24 and a half years of marriage. We did appeal his case in the humanitarian piece of what this meant for Lue during the time where we all fled the country. Once the monks were declared enemy of the state by the LDR in Laos, we fled. It’s well documented that there was a little bit over 400,000 of us there right after the genocide and the killings of the Hmong there was probably less than 45,000 of us left. Once we understood a lot of that, we wanted to do better. We wanted to really service our community.

We appealed the case. The case was then denied in his appeal letters, general Vink Powell, which led the Hmongs during the war, even had a letter where he, also pled why Hmongs need to stay here in America. And why we need to bring the rest of our people to this country.

The reality is our whole family, Lue’s whole family was wiped out. We don’t have anybody, Lue doesn’t have anyone. That goes to Tika’s thing too. There’s nobody there. Going back to the case once it was denied in 2002. He then was forced to reach out to the embassy and was denied, entry into Thailand ’cause that’s where he was born.

We’re stateless too, just like Tikas husband. We were denied by Thailand. We were denied by Laos stating that we are not a citizen of theirs. They do not allow or welcome any sort of entry. In 2006, they actually took his green card and then we again were denied. In 2008 we were denied a third time and that’s when his immigration officer was like, just move on and start your life. Laos and Thailand, will never sign a repatriation act with America because of you guys, because of the Hmong people, what you guys have done to their country, making it the most bombed country during the war without even being a part of the war.

They will never allow you guys back. So we were like, okay. So we moved forward. Then in 2014, this immigration officer, which we was doing yearly checkups at this time, was like, Hey go get your citizenship, get your green card. They’re like you’re doing so good. You probably could have a chance to get it. We moved forward to apply for citizenship and for the green card. We were denied in 2015 and we know how expensive this is. You pay $10,000 outright, you don’t get that money back.

You just have to go at it again. We decided that, we’re gonna get his case expunged, and we got his case expunged in 2018. No questions asked. It was very straightforward. Once it was expunged, we continued with our [00:26:00] lives. Very involved in the community. We had six kids . This year we even called his immigration officer and he was like, “Hey, don’t worry about it, Lue, we’re moving you over to Grand Rapids and you should be fine. Just make sure that you stay outta trouble, continue to follow your stock.” I think what triggered it was when we applied for his work permit in April. He always meets his immigration officer at the end of the year, and we renewed his work permit is what triggered it.

The money was cashed out, everything the checks went through while we were receiving that, he was gonna be here, everything was gonna be fine. Then July 15th he was detained at work, six 30 in the morning, the detained officer they told him they know who he is to the community, so they have to do it this way because they don’t want any problems. They don’t want media, they don’t want reporters. He did ask them because he rode his motorcycle for some weird reason. He has not taken his bike out, his motorcycle out in the last three years. But for some reason that night he was like, I just wanna take my bike. So he took his bike that night and when ICE told him, do you have somebody come get your bike?

You need to call somebody to come get your bike. He was like, nobody in my family rides motorcycles. I don’t have anyone to come get my bike. I think there was some empathy and compassion for him. My husband was like, can I just take my bike back? I’ve got six kids. I’ve got my grandma at home and my parents are also at my house right now. I just wanna see them and wanna take my bike back.

They asked him, “if we let you go, please don’t run.” They followed my husband home and my husband literally called me at 6 37 in the morning and he was like, Hey, ICE is, here they got me.

I’m like, “what? What’s going on?” It was just so surreal. I was so shocked. It’s a 30 minute drive. When he got there, they were already officers, packed tight in our driveway. We live in the country. There were like five or six cop cars there too. We had to walk about half a mile down to go see him. They wouldn’t allow him to enter where our home was. The officer told, my husband, told him that they’re so sorry.

They have to do it this way. They know who he is. They don’t want any problems, they don’t want any reports in media out here. I will say my experience was a little bit different from others. They did take their mask off when they took him in, they were respectful.

They even, talk to my two older boys like, Hey, you guys have money. I could put the money in your dad’s account. We’re, take him into Grand Rapids, we’re gonna process him, and then we’re gonna take him to the detention center, which is gonna be in Michigan.

They were very open about these steps . My grandma has chronic pulmonary disease stage four. We couldn’t haul her fast enough because we only saw him for like maybe a quick minute, and that was it. They did ask us to turn around because they had to take him back and they didn’t want our little ones to see them cuffing him.

Miko Lee: They actually said, Anne, we don’t want any media to be watching this?

Ann Vue: I don’t want any problems.

Miko Lee: Your husband is also quite well known in the Hmong community, right? So probably, they were worried about folks coming out and protesting. Is that, do you think that was the case?

Ann Vue: That’s what I’m assuming. I don’t remember their exact words saying media, but do remember that they didn’t want people around, they didn’t want to create issues for the community. Because if he would’ve gotten the letter just like everybody did, which everybody then would receive the letter on Friday, and because my husband is a community leader, he is the Hmong Family Association’s president, we restart receiving many, many calls where everybody just wanted to talk to Lue ’cause they needed to know what’s going on, how to handle, what to do. At that moment I realized, oh my gosh, they detained my husband first. Then everybody else got a letter.

Miko Lee: And the ICE officer that he had been checking in with routinely has he been in touch with him since he was detained?

Ann Vue: He hasn’t.

Miko Lee: So they had different people come in even, ’cause he was the person that said everything’s okay, keep going with your life.

Ann Vue: Oh yeah.

Miko Lee: And so no contact with him whatsoever since the detention?

Ann Vue: No.

Miko Lee: Okay. Thank you so much. I just wanna point out, for all of our listeners, how many similarities there are in these two cases. In both of these amazing women are here supporting their spouses. Both spouses born in refugee camps. Dealing with intergenerational trauma from families that had to escape ethnic cleansing or involved in a war, came into the United States under, legal properties through refugee resettlement acts, made mistakes as young people, partially due to culture and wanting to fit in. They served their time, they paid their dues. They were racially profiled. They suffered from incredible immigration policy failure with bad advice, with a system that’s broken. Now both of them are detained. Not yet deported, but detained. Many of the community members have already been deported and they’re facing statelessness. We’re seeing this not just with Bhutanese and Hmong folks, but with Mien and Lao and Haitian and El Salvadorian. We could fill in the blank of how many other peoples in other communities are facing this. We also know that these private detention centers where people are being held, are making millions and millions of dollars, and it’s connected into our corrupt political system that’s in place right now.

Aisa, I’m wondering if you could, talk about the case, but also about some of the deals that we think have had to be made with Laos and Bhutan in order for these deportations to even take place. So Aisa from Asian Law Caucus, I’m gonna pass it to you to go over some of the legal ramifications.

Aisa Villarosa: Of course, Miko, and thank you for it for the context. There are so many parallels that we as advocates must uplift because this is not the time to be divided. This is the time to build solidarity that we’ve long known needs to happen. What Miko is referring to is largely something that we’ve observed around the travel  bans.

Earlier this year, right around the time that the Trump administration took hold, there was a draft travel ban list that leaked across a number of media outlets, the Times, et cetera, and the same countries we’re talking about today, Bhutan, Laos. These were historically not countries that were subject to sanctions, like the travel ban, and yet here they were.

A lot of us were scratching our heads and asking, why is this happening? Our theory, and this is a theory that is now also manifesting in a number of FOIA requests or Freedom of Information Act requests that are submitted from Asian Law Caucus to departments like the State Department ice, the Department of Homeland Security.

Asking the same question that Tika and Anne are asking, which is, how are these deportations even happening? They were not happening until this year. What very likely happened was a bit of a quid pro quo. So in removing Bhutan, removing Laos from this list where they could be sanctioned as a country, there was likely some backdoor deal that took place between the US State Department and Bhutanese officials and the US officials, where essentially there was some form of an agreement that there would be an acceptance or a supposed acceptance of a certain number of folks from these communities. That is why around March, for the Bhutanese refugee community, for example, we started seeing pickups very similar to Mohan’s case, where, many people who had perhaps made some mistakes in their youth or had really old criminal convictions were swept off the streets and thrust into these really rapid deportation proceedings.

I don’t even know if proceedings is the right word, because there essentially was no proceeding. The Immigration Court is very much a cloaked process. The immigration judge is kind of judge and jury wrapped up together, which is very different than many of us might turn on the TV and see something like Law and order.

An immigration court works a very different way where this piece of paper, this final removal order, basically gives ICE a lot of bandwidth to make these deportations happen. However, that doesn’t mean we should just accept that this is happening. We know that just basic procedures of fairness are not being met.

We know, too that in the case of, for example, the Bhutanese community ICE officers have come to the wrong house. And put a lot of people in fear. So racial profiling was happening even before this recent Supreme Court decision, which essentially now condones racial profiling, as criteria that the ICE can use.

I also just wanted to talk about this trend too, we’re seeing with so many cases. It happened to Lue, it happened to Mohan, where in someone’s underlying criminal court case, maybe they were given a court appointed attorney. In many cases, they were not told of the immigration impacts of, say, taking a plea.

There is a Supreme Court case called Padilla versus Kentucky and basically the law shifted such that in many cases there now is a duty for a court appointed public defender to actually talk to folks like Mohan and Lue about the immigration consequences of their plea. So when Tika mentioned that there’s something called a post-conviction relief effort for Mohan.

That’s happening in Georgia. This is very much what that legal defense looks like, where, an expert attorney will look at that very old court record, see if those rights were violated, and also talk to Mohan and make sure did that violation happen and is that grounds for reopening an immigration case. For Lue, there is a really mighty pardoning campaign that’s brewing in the state of Michigan. So in Michigan, governor Gretchen Whitmer does have the authority to in some cases expedite a pardon in process.

Unfortunately in the immigration arena the expungement does not have that same weight as say a vacating, or a motion to vacate that criminal record. So it’s super frustrating because, so much of this turns ethically, morally on- do we, as people believe in second chances, and I know most people do, and yet here we are really. Based on a technicality.

I also just want to name too that Lue as a person is both a natural organizer and he is a spiritual guide of his community. So something that many folks don’t know is because of so much of the trauma that Anne talked about, both from, supporting the Americans during the Secret War, many Hmong folks who came to the States, they actually in some cases died in their sleep because of this, almost unexplained weight of the trauma.

It almost underscores the importance of Lue, not just to his family, but this family is a collective family. He’s both a mentor for so many, he’s a spiritual guide for so many. Him being away from his family, away from community, it’s like a double, triple wound. for Mohan, I’d love to uplift this memory I have of a moment in June when Tika gave us a call, and at that point, Mohan had called Tika and said, they’re taking me, I’m being deported. At that point, they were removing Mohan from the ICE facility in Butler, Ohio and transporting him to the Detroit airport or that deportation to Bhutan. Tika was forced to essentially delay her childbirth. It was very much in the range of when she was due to give birth to their daughter.

But because the clock was ticking, Tika drove to Butler, literally begged for Mohans life as our organizing and advocacy and legal team was trying to get together this emergency stay of deportation. That fortunately came through at the 11th hour. But the fact that Mohan remains in this facility in St. Clair, Michigan, that he’s never held his daughter is unacceptable, is ridicuLues. I think so much of these two cases almost, this invisible brotherhood of pain that I know Ann has talked to me about that. Because Lue right now has been in a couple facilities. He is organizing, he’s doing his thing and actually supporting folks while also just trying to keep himself well, which is no easy feat to do in so many of these facilities.

Especially because, in Alexandria, for example, which is a facility in Louisiana. We know that folks are sleeping on cement floors. We know that folks are not being fed, that there’s a lot of human rights violations going on. Here is Lue still continuing to use his voice and try to advocate for the folks around him.

Miko Lee: Aisa thank you so much for putting that into context, and we’ll put links in the show notes for how folks can get involved in both of these cases. One is, Rising Voices call to action for Lue. We encourage folks to do that. In terms of Mohan, there’s a GoFundMe to help support Tika and the immense lawyer fees, and also a letter writing campaign to the ICE director Kevin Roff, to try and release Mohan and Lue. These are really important things that are happening in our community, and thank you for being out there.

Thank you for talking and sharing your stories.

We really appreciate you. And also, just briefly, I’d love us for us to talk for a minute about how many folks in our Asian American communities, we don’t wanna talk about mistakes that we have made in the past because we might consider that shameful. And therefore, in both of these communities, when we started organizing, it was really hard at first to find people to come forth and share their stories.

So I wonder if both of you can give voice to a little about that, the power you found in yourself to be able to come forward and speak about this, even though some other folks in the community might not feel comfortable or strong enough to be able to talk. Tika, can you speak to that?

Tika Basnet: What makes me really strong, and I wanna see that my husband case is because he was 17, people can make mistake and from those mistake, if people are learning. Americans should consider, ’cause my husband did make mistake and I wish that time he knew the rules and regulation.

I wish somebody taught him that he’s not supposed to go somebody else property, around in backyard. I wish he was been in the United States like more than , one and a half year. I wish, if he was like more than two years, three years. I think that time he, from high school, he could learn.

He’s not supposed to go there. He was just been in the United States like one and a half year just going to high school. Nobody taught him. His parent doesn’t even speak English. Until now, they doesn’t even speak, like nobody in our community knew rules and regulation.

He doesn’t have guide, mentor to taught him like, and even though he did make mistake and he’s really sorry, and from those mistake learning a lot, and he never get into trouble, after 11 years, he was clean, he work, he pay taxes. That is the reason that I really wanna come forward.

People can make mistake, but learning from those mistake that changed people life. The reason that I’m coming forward is because organization like Asian Law Caucus, ARU, and, Miko, a lot of people helped me. They taught me like people can make mistake and, we shouldn’t be same.

I really wanna give example to my daughter, that, you are fighting for justice and you shouldn’t fear. What is right is right. What is wrong is wrong. But if somebody’s make mistake and they are not, doing that mistake again, I think the people can get a second chance.

My husband deserves second chance. He’s 30 years old. He has a family, he has a wife, children and he deserved to be here. We came here legally, my husband came here. Legally, we, promise that we’ll get home and this is our home. We wanna stay here and I really want my husband be home soon so he can play with her daughter to play with his daughter.

Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Tika. Ann I wonder if you could talk to the strength that it takes for you to come forward and speak about your husband and your family.

Ann Vue: I’m a community leader with my husband. There was a moment when he was first detained where I was in complete silence. I was so shocked. It took my attorney, Nancy, just talking to me about it. Of course, back to what Aisa said earlier in our communities, we’re afraid. I was so scared. I didn’t know what to do. It took me visiting my husband in Baldwin and letting him know that, hey, a bunch of community members are now reaching out. And that’s that. At that moment, he was like, you have to say something. You have to say something you have to make noise because you have a, 50% chance, right? We have a 50 50 chance. 50%. They’re gonna send me 50%. You’re gonna feel bad if you don’t say anything, right? 50 here, 50 there. It doesn’t matter.

But a hundred percent regret if you don’t say something. I thought about it and he was like, well, go out there, be my voice. He’s like, you’ve always been my voice. You got this right. I didn’t say no to Nancy. ’cause she really wanted to talk to our rep Mai you know about this.

Mai and I are pretty close too. , I just knew if I said anything, Mai’s gonna be like mm-hmm. All the way. I just let Nancy help me, and my most vulnerable time. I’m glad that she did. I’m glad that we did get this out.

It is the most important thing for us. what keeps me going is all of those that have been impacted by this, from people like Tika. I have many, I call ’em sisters. We’re all in a lot of these group chats together. They’ve been also keeping me going.

Our amazing team of attorneys and everybody just strategizing through this unprecedented time. It’s really everyone’s voices. I get to talk to Lue daily. It’s definitely not cheap, but he gets to share each story of each person. I believe that everybody has a story and they might not be as lucky as maybe Tika or my husband, but at least now I have their story. I will be their voice. I will tell each person’s story, each name, each alien number that I track down, my husband’s even literally learned how to count in Spanish, just so he can give them like my phone number in Spanish in case they need to call an emergency.

Oh, I’m be getting a lot of calls. that is what keeps me going because I think that Tika and I and many others are, hoping that there is going to be a better day, a brighter day. I hope that everyone can see that, our children are American, right? Our children, they deserve to have their fathers and their mothers. They deserve to grow with these parents. And with that being said, the most important thing to me is they’re not just bystanders.

They’re literally the future of America. I don’t want them growing up with trauma, with trying to ask me questions “well mom, if we’re refugees and we helped, Americans as allies, and we come to this country, why is this payback like this?” There’s a moral obligation that has to be there and they’re gonna grow up and they’re gonna be trauma by this.

I’ve got children right now that’s been talking about joining the National Guard. It speaks volume about what happens to my husband. He’s championed the Hmong, Michigan Special Gorilla unit, the Hmong veterans here in the last two years, really  with helping them through resolutions, tributes, making sure that they have things, that they are out there, that people now know them, they are finally recognized.

This puts my husband at great danger by sending him back, because now he’s championed the veterans here. He celebrates our veterans here. So it’s a moral obligation. I hope that, and this is to every child, I hope that every child, they deserve their father’s presence.

There are many people who don’t even have their father’s presence and they wish their fathers were around. Our fathers wanna be around. I hope that our daughter, I only have one daughter too, that someday they can, their fathers can be a part of their, the American culture.

I hope that we get that opportunity and I hope that somebody stop being scared, but turn around and help us. Help us. We came here legally, minor stuff, long decade old. This detainment has been worse than when he did time back in 1997. I just hope that somebody hears our podcast, Miko. Thank you. Aisa and Tika. And they turn and they have some compassion and help us because this is the tone that we’re setting for the future of our American children.

Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. Tika, you wanna add?

Tika Basnet: Yes, I really wanna talk about what kind of husband Mohan is. Even though like he detained for five month I put lot of money in his account and there was one guy, his family cannot support him. For me, it is really hard. I’m not working. But even my husband called me you don’t need to put like money in my account, but can you please can you please put money in his account?

He did not eat food. His family did not have money. I can survive without eating food. I think his story is really touching me. My husband was crying listening to that guy story in detention center and then I did put like $50 in his account. My husband is giving person. He love to give even though, he struggle a lot, even though, he doesn’t know what will happen when he get deport.

But, him saying other guy story. Does make him cry. I think this is the reason that I really wanna come forward. My husband is giving person, he’s lovely person, he’s caring person. That is the reason I wanna come forward. I want people to hear our voice, rather than silent.

Right now people know our story. But if I was silent then I don’t know whether my husband was already disappear. I don’t know whether he gonna die torture or maybe he will expel within 24 hours. I have no idea. My husband is number one support system for me, because of him I’m here sharing his story. For years I had wonderful time with him. We build our dream and until 2025, our dream is destroy. I’m trying to build again. I’m hoping, my husband is coming home soon and I’m hoping that this will be the last time that he will get detained. I hope that this will be the end.

I don’t want him to get detained or deported again. I’m really tired. I don’t know what to do. I’m hopeless. I hope listening to my story and Ann’s story that separating family is not good. It is affecting not only one person but his whole community, whole family.

We deserve to get our husband back. It is not only about the wife that is fighting for husband, it is the children. They’re so small, they born here and we cannot raise alone, we cannot work. We have things to pay. Paying bills and taking care of child alone is really difficult.

It’s been five month. I went through postpartum depression, I went through trauma and I don’t wanna deal anymore. Like I don’t have courage to do this anymore. We need our husband back.

Miko Lee: Thank you. I think both of your husbands are also main caregivers for parents that are ailing in both cases. It’s a really important that we are intergenerational communities and as you both said, it’s not just about the children, but it’s also about parents and brothers and sisters and community members as well.

Thank you so much for lifting up your stories. I just wanna go back for one more thing. We talked briefly about the crazy expensive lawyer fees that have come up for families that they’ve been dealing with this, and then also Tika was just bringing up about detention and commissary fees. Can you talk a little bit about the prison industrial complex and the fees that are associated? As Anne was saying, just calling Lue every day the costs that are associated with those things. Many people that don’t have a family member that’s incarcerated don’t know about that. Can you share a little bit about what that system is?

Aisa Villarosa: Yeah, absolutely Miko. Just to underscore, a big theme from this conversation, is that the US made commitments and they have broken them, both with, as Anne talked about, the refugee experience is one that is made possible through US commitment of acknowledging what, people have survived, what they have given to the country.

Folks are being removed to countries where not only do they have zero ties to, don’t speak the language, but, especially in the case of the Bhutanese refugee community, as Tika mentioned, it is truly a double expulsion. So the fact that we have well-documented testimonials of folks deported from Bhutan after they’re removed there into these life-threatening conditions . A community member passed away in large part because of the failure of the US to both care for them while in detention. So going back to that prison complex, but also just putting them in such a harrowing situation.

In another instance, a community member was found after wandering for over a hundred miles on foot. So this is not, deportation and the story ends. This is deportation and, there is a family that is grieving and thinking through next steps, there is, this call to not have borders, break us the way that this country is trying to do.

And to say a little bit about the fees, USCIS, there, there has not been a point yet in history where so many changes and charges hurting families have been ushered in, But for this year. To give a couple examples of that – asylum cases for one, these often take many years through this administration.

Now, families have to pay a cost yearly for each year that your asylum application, languishes because we’re also seeing that those same folks who are supposed to process these applications are either being laid off or they’re being militarized. So something like USCIS where this was where one would go to apply for a passport.

Now the same department is literally being handed guns and they’re now taking folks during naturalization interviews. Other avenues to challenge your removal. Like I mentioned a motion to reopen. All these things used to be fairly affordable. Now they can cost many thousands of dollars on top of the attorney fees.

So something that’s been quite challenging for groups like Asian Law Caucus where we do have attorneys representing folks in removal proceedings, there’s often this misperception that oh it’s costing so much money. Attorneys are pocketing cash. Unfortunately there are some situations where attorneys have been known to take advantage of families in this desperate moment.

But for many, many attorneys who are in this mix, they’re experts at this work. They’re trying to do the right thing. They’re both overwhelmed and they’re seeing these new charges, which make the battle really even more difficult. So to turn it back to the listeners, I would say that as powerless as this moment can make us feel everyone is bearing witness. Hopefully the listeners today can take in Anne’s story, can take in Tika’s story and whatever power one has in their corner of the world, this is the moment to use that. Whether it’s your voice, whether it’s learning more about a community, maybe you’re learning about for the first time. This is really the moment to take action.

Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. I wanna thank you all for being here with me today, for sharing your personal stories, your personal pain, and for recognizing that this is happening. We deeply believe that we need to keep our families together.

That is really important. It is written into the very basis of this American country about redemption and forgiveness. And this is what we’re talking about for misunderstandings that happened when these folks were young men, that they have paid for their time, and yet they’re being punished again, these promises that were broken by this American government, and we need to find ways to address that. I really wanna deeply thank each of you for continuing to be there for sharing your voice, for protecting one another, for being there and standing up for your family and for our community. Thank you for joining me today.

Check out our Apex Express Show notes to find out about how you can get involved. Learn about the Rising Voices campaign for Lue Yang and Mohan Khaki’s GoFundMe. On November 3rd, 4:00 PM Pacific Time, 7:00 PM Eastern Time. Join us for We Belong here, Bhutanese and Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness, a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations.

Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program, apex Express to find out more about our show. APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Have a great night.

The post APEX Express – 10.30.25-We Belong! appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

On tonight’s episode, we’re focusing on a particular segment of our immigrant and refugee community, Hmong and Bhutanese refugees.

Both of these targeted communities are stateless with no land to call their own, and their deportation carries the very real danger of disappearance and death. Robin Gurung from Asian Refugees United and Kao Ye Thao from Hmong innovating Politics, discuss their community and personal refugee stories, and talk about the intersection of the US’ deeply broken immigration and criminal legal systems, otherwise known as crimmigration.

We also get to hear from the wives of two detained refugees, one Bhutanese and one Hmong, who are currently fighting to keep their families together and to protect their loved ones from the dangers of deportation as stateless people.

Important Links:

Hmong Innovating Politics: Website | Instagram

Asian Refugees United: Website | Instagram

Bhutanese American Refugee Rights website

Transcript

Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to Apex Express on KPFA. My name is Swati Rayasam.

Since the onset of the Trump administration, immigrant and refugee communities have been under increased attack, being kidnapped in broad daylight, detained in unsanitary and unsafe conditions, and deported to countries many of them barely know. All without due process or communication to their loved ones and communities.

On tonight’s episode, we’re focusing on a particular segment of our immigrant and refugee community, Hmong and Bhutanese refugees.

Both of these targeted communities are stateless with no land to call their own, and their deportation carries the very real danger of disappearance and death. Robin Gurung from Asian Refugees United and Kao Ye Thao from Hmong innovating Politics, discuss their community and personal refugee stories, and talk about the intersection of the US’ deeply broken immigration and criminal legal systems, otherwise known as crimmigration.

We also get to hear from the wives of two detained refugees, one Bhutanese and one Hmong, who are currently fighting to keep their families together and to protect their loved ones from the dangers of deportation as stateless people.

I also want to note because this is a rapidly developing situation, that this episode was recorded on August 13th, 2025, and is being released on August 28th, 2025.

For the most recent updates, please go to bhutaneserefugeerights.org or check out the Pardon Refugees campaign. Now, here’s Miko.

Miko: Welcome to Apex Express. Thank you so much for being here today. I’m so glad to bring you all together in this time. I’m wondering if I could ask you each to introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about the community your organization serves and what you do, and let’s start with Kao Ye.

Kao Ye: Hello everyone, and thank you for making space- my name is Kao Ye Tao. I use she her pronouns, and I work as the director of policy and partnerships with an organization called Hmong Innovating Politics. We are an organization that serves Hmong youth and families in Sacramento and Fresno, which holds two of our largest Hmong American communities in California. And our work with Hmong youth and families is really about developing their leadership to organize towards social justice and to get the resources that their communities deserve.

Miko: Thank you, Kao Ye and Robin, could you please introduce yourself?

Robin: Sure. My name is Robin Gurung. I use he, him, his, I’m from the Nepali speaking Bhutanese community. I live in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. my role at Asian Refugees United is the co-founder and the co-executive director. We have our program in California and Pennsylvania. California programs are, are serving Asian diaspora and then, Pennsylvania programs are focused serving the Nepal speaking Bhutanese community. We work in the intersection of arts and healing, storytelling, civic engagement, leadership development. Thank you.

Miko: Thanks Robin and I am your host Miko Lee, lead producer at Apex Express. And all of us are part of a network called AACRE Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, which is a network of progressive Asian American groups.

So you all work with refugee populations. I’m wondering if you could tell a little bit more about the backstory of your community, and also if you feel comfortable about how you personally came to be a refugee in the United States. And, Robin, I’d love to start with you on that one.

Robin: Sure. My community is Nepali speaking, Bhutanese refugee community. And we are ethnically Nepali, which means culture wise and language wise we speak Nepali and follow the Nepali culture tradition. Our ancestors like maybe in 18 hundreds, 19 hundreds migrated from Nepal to Bhutan and became the citizen of that country.

And most people don’t know about Bhutan, it’s a very tiny country between China and India. And, if people know about Bhutan, then people know it through the cross national happiness concept, Bhutan is considered the happiest country in the world.

So our ancestors were in mostly in the southern area of Bhutan for generations, they became the citizen. They had their own home, their own land. And then later, 1980s, early nineties, there was a policy by the government of Bhutan, which is the monarchy government system- king rules the country. They brought a policy called One Nation, One People Policy. Which means all different groups of people would have to follow the same culture, same religion, kind of follow the same dress code and because of that policy all people were forced to stay away from following our own culture or our own religion, which, most of our folks were Hindu. Our people protested against it and because of that, the government expelled over a hundred thousand of our community members.

And, they expelled to India and then from like India wouldn’t allow us to stay and we had to resettle in Nepal in seven different refugee camps under different international agencies like U-N-H-C-R and other agencies.

Miko: And then Robin, can you tell a little bit about your personal story and how you came here?

Robin: Yeah. Yeah. So 1992 is when my family had to leave Bhutan. And at that time I was three years old. I remember growing up in a refugee camp in Nepal, from three years until I was 23 years. So 20 years of my life I was in a refugee camp in Nepal. And in 2012, I came to US through the refugee resettlement program introduced to our camps in 2008, and through it US agreed to resettle 60,000 of our committee members. By 2017, I think US has resettled about 70 to 80,000 of our Bhutanese community members.

Miko: Thank you so much for sharing. Kao Ye I wonder if you could talk about your community and the refugee resettlement program that your community was a part of.

Kao Ye: The Hmong American community, or just the Hmong community overall, is a group that’s indigenous to East and Southeast Asia. And through our ancient history, we’ve always been a stateless, people fighting for our autonomy to live to practice our customs and our culture. And particularly where we come into this history of refugee is during the Vietnam War where many Hmong people, alongside other ethnic groups in Laos, were caught in the crossfire of the United States conflict in Southeast Asia.

And so with the Vietnam War. The Hmong as well as many other ethnic communities that lived, in the hills and the mountains were recruited in covert operations by the CIA to fight back against the Vietnamese, the Northern Vietnamese communist forces, as well as the Putet Lao. And so once the US withdrew from Southeast Asia, it created a vacuum of conflict and violence that our people had to escape from in order to survive. And so after the Vietnam War in 1975, we saw the mass displacement of many Southeast Asian ethnic communities, including Hmong families. And that is where my history starts because my parents were born in Laos and because of this war, they fled to Thailand refugee camps and lived there for a few years until they were able to come to the United States in 1992. And I’m actually I’m a child of refugees and so what I know about this part of my history comes from the stories of my grandparents who raised me as well as what little I could learn in the textbooks of public education.

And so it wasn’t actually until going to college and. Being able to access more of this literature, this history that I really learned about what the United States had done in Southeast Asia and the ramifications of that for myself and my family and so many others, refugees that. Have to have had to resettle in the United States.

And so it’s definitely a history that runs very close, because we have relatives that live through that refugee experience. And so it is very well and alive. And so as we now approach this conversation around ICE and deportations, it really is a reminder of the trauma that our people face, but are still facing as a people that have been seen as disposable to the United States government.

Miko: Thanks, Kao Ye. Let’s talk a little bit more about that. But first I wanna say, did either of you ever hear about refugees in your textbooks? I never did. So I’m wondering if, you said you learned a little bit about that from textbooks. Was that something you learned in public education.

Kao Ye: I did not learn about refugees or refugees experience. I learned about the war and as a Hmong kid it brought me so much delight to try to scroll through the history books just to see if Hmong people were mentioned. And even then the refugee experience was not ever something that we talked about.

I felt like definitely not in, in high school. I think it was college really, that then started to articulate those terms and that Southeast Asian identity, that is really where I think I also became politicized in that.

Miko: Yeah, because I think in textbooks there might be a little section on the Vietnam War, but it does not talk about the, all the Southeast Asian ethnic peoples that actually fought in the war. We have to dig that information out on our own, but I wanna move us to what is happening right now.

So the Trump administration has created. Culture of fear among immigrants and refugees, these ICE raids and disappearances. It is so intense and using immigrants as a fear tool to prop up white supremacy is so blatant right now. I’m wondering if you can each talk about, how this administration’s policies are impacting your communities. And, Robin, let’s start with you. What is happening right now? I know since the end of March, can you share a little bit about what’s been happening with Bhutanese Americans?

Robin: Sure. Sure. So our people were settled to this country with the hope that this is going to be our home. But starting March of this year, with the new policies of this current administration, we started seeing abrupt, ICE arrest in our communities. People were picked up from home, their workplaces, and from their ICE, check-ins.

And, since March, within I would say two to three months, more than 72 of our community members were picked up, mostly from Pennsylvania and then Ohio, and also from other states like New York, Georgia, North Dakota. So until now, we have, the records of at least 50 people who have been deported to Bhutan and at least 72 who are detained.

So more than 30 people are [at risk] of getting detained. The nature of the ICE arrests that we have seen is we don’t know whether the due processes were followed.

They made it so hard for the families to look for attorneys, and also to track their family members. Within days family members would find their loved ones disappeared, and then they wouldn’t be able to talk to them they wouldn’t be able to track them and provide the support that they needed.

So for us as a community organization we did not anticipate this and we were not prepared for this. And, and we didn’t have the infrastructure to really address this, right? So it became such challenging work for us.

Like within days we had to mobilize our people. We had to mobilize our teams to help family members with legal support, emotional support, mobilize our community members to update what’s happening with this situation. The rapid response work, know your rights clinics that we had to set up.

So on one hand it’s the detention and deportation in the US and on the other hand, when our people were deported to Bhutan, what we’re seeing is within 24 hours, they are being expelled from Bhutan to India, and then from India because India wouldn’t accept them as well, they had to enter Nepal because for most of these Deportee, they’re very young, they were born in refugee camps, and for most of them, the only known land is Nepal. Right. And they had to enter Nepal without documentation. And then some of them were found in refugee camps. And most of them are unknown. Like they’re, they have disappeared.

Miko: So that is so much over the last few months that ARU has had to step in and take a leading, role in this situation that has impacted the Bhutanese community from focusing on wellness and youth development to suddenly translating materials into Nepali, translating, know Your Rights materials into Nepali, hosting all these different events, the work that you have been doing is really powerful. I wonder if you could share with us the story of Mohan Karki, who is a community member that’s currently detained in Michigan.

Robin: Sure. So, Mohan Karki is now in detention in Michigan and he’s a community member member who lived in Ohio. So he was detained by ICE during his regular ICE check-in , I believe in April, they detained him and then he was taken for deportation. And last minute, the families and the community had to come together and then appeal the deportation. Right now he’s in Michgan detention center and his wife, who was pregnant and had due date, when Mohan was being deported on June 10, is now fighting day and night to stop the deportation and also to bring Mohan home. Right now, Asian Refugees United and other community partners, like AWPAL, Asian Law Caucus are working together to support Mohan’s family, to bring Mohan home and also running a, GoFund me fundraiser, to help the family pay the legal fees.

Miko: Thanks Robin. And we’re gonna listen to Tikas story right now.

Tika Basnet: Hi, my name is Tika Basnet

I’m from Ohio and I’m fighting my husband deportation case.

So on April seven, a lot of people told us not to go to the ICE office, but my husband wanna follow the rules, he wanna go there. We went to the Westerville office inside And we sit down, we talk to each other. Nothing will go wrong. And suddenly ICE told us to come inside and they told us that my husband got travel documents from Bhutan. I told them like it is not safe for my husband to get deport in Bhutan, all the Bhutanese people run away in 1990s due to the ethnic cleansing and if my husband get deported in Bhutan, he will either gonna get killed, tortured, disappeared, imprisoned, I don’t know what will happen, but they did not listen to me. So they detained my husband and I came at the parking lot and his mom saw me coming alone. So they start crying and I told them like, Mohan is gone and this is the last time I think I’m gonna see my husband. the time that my husband was taken away from Butler County on June 10 I was 41 weeks pregnant. I was supposed to deliver on, June 10. But no, I told the doctor I change my delivery time. I am not gonna go now like I need to fight for my husband.

Like, When Bhutanese people started coming here in 2007. Third party promise us that in here in United States, we will get our identity. That identity will never taken away. They promise us that the way Bhutan take our identity, they will not gonna do that. we thought that this is our home. We thought that having a green card, having a citizenship, it is permanently, but no, we are, we all are wrong. And that identity is taken away within a second.

And we became stateless again.

So, my husband, Mohan Karki he just arrived in the United States he been here less than two years when the incident happened. He did not understand the law. He did not understand the culture. He did not know anything.

My husband he was only 17 years old, high school student coming from school to home. On the way to reach their apartment, there is one private house. They are just trying to go to the shortcut from the backyard. So some neighbor call 9 1 1. And that only one mistake lead to deportation.

The place that we come from, there is no boundaries. In Nepal, we are allowed to go anybody property We are allowed to walk somebody else house and because of the cultural difference, he’s paying price right now.

At that time, nobody can speak English. They cannot understand what police were saying and Nepali interpreter told my husband that if you say I’m guilty, you’ll out of prison soon. But if you did not say I’m guilty, you’ll end up in prison for 20 to 25 years. High school student he’s scared he just say, I’m guilty, and he did not know what is deportation mean. He did not know what he was signing. Nobody informed him what he was signing. That signing was deportation. What happened in 2013 is impacting us in 2025 and still he wish he did not cross somebody else backyard at that time. He wish he knew that he wasn’t allowed to cross somebody else’s backyard.

I don’t know what will our future is gonna be, but I hope that he gets second chance.

His community love him. He love people. He was working as a truck driver. He paid taxes. He was supporting his parent. He was supporting me. My daughter deserve to have a father. You know, she’s just one month. But now the dream that I was hoping one day I’m gonna build with my husband that is taken away and I’m left alone with this child. I already went through a lot without him, i’m the only one that fighting for my husband case. The deportation is not only breaking one family, but it is breaking everybody, the community and the family.

And I hope that people can support me so I can fight for my husband case. Like I really need so many attorney. I need criminal attorney to open up his 2013 case. And I have wonderful, wonderful attorney, my husband get stay off removal, but that is not guarantee my husband can get deport anytime. The attorney fee are really expensive and he still needs support.

The US made bhutanese people a promise of home. We belong here. Stop the detention and deportation. Stop deporting Bhutanese people. We are stateless. We don’t have country, don’t have a home.

This is our home. US is our home. We belong here.

Miko: Of the 72 people, Mohan is the first Bhutanese refugee that we actually have a stay of release on, as Robin was saying earlier, most of the folks were moved from state to state, so you can’t really get a lawyer in that time. And as we all know, nonprofit immigration lawyers are under a lot of stress because of the attack of this administration.

So it makes it incredibly complicated, let alone the legal fees that it costs to help support people going through this. And right now, Mohan has a stay on his, deportation and the lawyer that they do have is drafting up a letter to be able to release him into the community and also overturn his original case that happened as a minor in Georgia, which was a ridiculous case where he was leaving school, early high school, first year in the country, leaving high school early, and walked with his friends across a backyard. And the neighbor that they walked through their yard called the police, and they arrested him along with his friends for trespassing, they gave him paperwork that he didn’t even understand. He signed it along with a interpreter they gave him false information to say he’d be locked up for 25 years, or if he signed this papers, that would be fine.

He could go and what the papers said was it changed his charge into a felony and had him sign a letter of deportation. So this is part of the failure of our American legal system that we’re not providing adequate information. It is a lack of due process. Thankfully, the work that Asian Law Caucus and United States of Stateless and other community activists are doing to call this out and help work with us is really critical.

I wanna turn now to Kao Ye how this administrations is impacting Hmong refugees, and how is it similar or different to the experiences that Robin is describing for the Nepali speaking Bhutanese community?

Kao Ye: I echoed many of the sentiments and the challenges that Robin shared around what we as nonprofit, grassroots organizations are having to build and grapple with just the limited infrastructure that we have to deal with the current ICE disappearances and deportation and all the support that’s needed for the families.

And so thank you Robin, for sharing that. I wanted to start broad a little bit because I think that this Trump administration is happening in the backdrop of the 50th year commemoration of the end of the wars in Southeast Asia and the refugee resettlement. We had over 1.1 million Southeast Asians resettle to the United States, the largest immigration resettlement, in American history. And so this year brings so many complexities, I think as a Southeast Asian community where there is a level of looking back at policies that have impacted us and have failed, but also looking forward what is the community that we are building together to move and progress together.

And so there are those complexities, I think as the fact that it’s the 50th year and like, this is what we’re dealing with. This is the trauma that we are grappling with. And so I wanted to put that out front and center because even I think within our communities , there is no necessarily enlightenment in terms of how we talk about what is happening to our people and how they’re getting deported unjustly.

So that is why it is so important to have this dialogue within our communities as well as the solidarity that we also share with the Bhutanese community and other immigrant groups too. I think that in many of our Southeast Asian communities, their reasons for deportations is very tied to past convictions, and so this is the intersection between criminal law and immigration law. And it makes it complex because our people are now having to consult not just an immigration lawyer, but like criminal attorney so that they could really assess like what kind of relief they can get in order to mitigate, impending deportations. And then also

miko you had shared about the lack of adequate legal service or representation because many of these folks, right, that have had these convictions that have now served their time and are simply members of our community that make our community rich. They are now having to revisit removal orders that they signed, thinking that, oh, nothing necessarily was gonna happen because they don’t have a repatriation agreement. So, in our community, there was never a thought that we were going to be deported back to our home country because of that policy. And so that is a big contributing factor as to why the Hmong community, we don’t have that infrastructure to really support our members who have gone through the criminal justice system and now have those removal orders.

And so HIP, as well as many other grassroots. Sadly we did have to scramble to put this know your rights information together because again, I don’t think that there was visibility in the need for us in this conversation around immigration Southeast Asians are a segment of our API community and so it just, I think, multiplied the invisibility that we already faced as a group of Southeast Asians. And so the support was definitely not there. And, to Robin’s point, we did our best to try to put this information together to our community, starting with the Know Your Rights. And then we also realized like it was more complex than that, and that the legal supports were so necessary because everyone’s case was different. I think what we’re still dealing with now is that there’s always been a lack of trust between our community members and government entities and nonprofit organizations. And so, if someone is dealing with the situation, they wanna go to, a partner that they trust to help them, even if they’re not necessarily equipped to do that work, is that they’re going to only the people that they trust because there is such a big mistrust.

And so I think that, there is still the level of trust building that is needed to be done within our community so that folks feel comfortable to come to us or come to other people for support. And I think what makes me feel emotional is just when I hear about community members feeling hopeless and just feeling like there’s nothing that they can do and that level of disempowerment to me, I think is something that is real. And I can’t say that we can’t combat it, but I think that it is about being able to find different outlets of support for them.

Miko: Thank you for lifting that up. And just , in terms of the numbers, over three months, March, April and May, there were about 72 Bhutanese Americans that have been detained.

And this is just kind of starting up with the Hmong community. So we had 15 that were detained from Minnesota and another 10 right now are being held in Michigan. And we also see this happening with Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodians, and Myan folks. All of these folks as Kao Ye you’re pointing out, have had common threads, which is connections with the system, with the criminal legal/ justice system and crimmigration is something that in the AACRE network we’ve been talking about and working on, which is really about the education to prison, to deportation pipeline.

And one of the things that this administration had talked about is, let’s get rid of all the murderers and the rapists. You know, this like scare language about people that are convicted criminals, let’s get rid of them all. But the fact of the matter. The vast majority of all of these people are people like Mohan Karki, a cultural misunderstanding that happened when he was a child.

Like Lou Yang, who is Hmong refugee detained in Michigan right now. Somebody who was involved in something as a kid, but has since then become a leader in the community. So let’s take a moment and listen to the spouse of Lou Yang, a Hmong refugee detained in Michigan in July.

Anne Vu: My name is Anne Vu and I come before you today with a heart full of hope. Sorrow and a plea for justice.

I am a proud American, a mother of six, the daughter of Hmong refugees who would gain their citizenship, and the wife of a man called Lou Yang, who is now detained and faced with potential deportation from the only country that he’s ever known.

Lou has lived in Michigan since October, 1979. He was born stateless in a refugee camp in Nongkai Thailand and his family fled Laos due to persecution. His father and like many others, served with the United States force during the Vietnam War as part of the Secret War, recruited by CIA in Laos, a conflict that most Americans do not know has happened.

The Hmong were recruited by the CIA as part of the Secret War to help America during the Vietnam War. But when the war ended and the US withdrew, we were as the Hmongs declared enemy of the state. What followed was genocide, polarization and persecution by the state, and it was because of our alliance, the promise made by the US government that the Hmong refugees were legally settled here under certain migration of refugee laws and acts. And Lou arrived here as a young, toddler in infancy.

In 1997, he was arrested on an alleged accomplice in an attempt home invasion, second degree. He was in the vehicle at the time. He never entered the home. He literally was still a juvenile at that time. He had a court appointed attorney and was advised to take a plea without being told it would affect his immigration status for the rest of his life.

This is the reality of our immigration system – long, complex, confusing and devastating, unforgiving. It is not built for people like us, people like Lou, people who have served their time, rebuilt their lives and have nowhere else to go. We’ve walked this legal path, we’ve stayed together in the lines, and yet we are here punished today.

Lou has no other charges, no current legal issues, no history of violence. He is not a flight risk. He is not a danger to our public safety. He is a father, my husband, a son, a son-in-law, a grandson and a brother to many, and our leader and a provider to our community, and to my family. He renews his work authorization and follows every rule asked of him no matter how uncertain the future felt.

Together, we’ve raised six beautiful children. They’re all proud Americans. Lou has contributed to Michigan’s economy for decades working in our automotive industry and now he is gone and all that he is built is unraveling and the community is heartbroken.

We didn’t come from wealth. We didn’t have every opportunity handed to us because we didn’t come seeking a land of opportunity. We came here because of survival. We had to build from the ground up. But the most important thing was Lou and I, we had each other. We had our families, our friends, and our neighbors. We had a shared commitment to build a better life, grounded in love, respect, and purpose. And somehow that’s still not enough.

For years, we were told like other Hmong families that Laos in Thailand would never take us back. And that has changed. In June, 2025 the US imposed a partial travel ban on Laos, citing visa overstays, and lack of deportation cooperation. And in response, Laos began issuing these documents under pressure. Today over 4,800, including Hmong, Myan, and the other ethnic minorities are facing removal to Laos and to many other countries, many have never stepped foot in a country that they are now being sent to. Lou is Stateless like many others that is detained with him. None of these countries recognize him. He was born in the Thailand refugee camp, it does not recognize him nor qualify him for any sort of Thai citizenship and I’ll tell you guys right now if forced to return, he will face danger because of his family’s deep ties to the CIA and United States military.

Deporting him turns him, a civil servant and respected community leader, into a political casualty, it would be a grave and irreversible injustice. To deport him now is to punish him to death.

Once again, 50 years later, as we celebrate resilience this year across the nation, we are now celebrating a fight within our own grounds, right here in United States, right here in Michigan. We’re now fighting the same fight within our own country. Thousands of Southeast Asian Americans, many that entered legally admitted as refugees are being deported for decade old offenses they’ve longed paid for.

America is our country. All we ask is the right to stay in the home that we’ve helped to build and work hard to protect. We are not seeking special treatment. We are asking for justice, compassion, and a second chance in this country to claim what we believe in. To Governor Whitmer and members of Congress and all elected officials, please help bring Lou and the many others home. Urge ICE and DHS to release him on humanitarian grounds. Help his case. Help us preserve the integrity of our laws and the dignity of our families. And to the public allies and the media. Please call our elected officials. Please call these offices.

Please share Lou’s story. We need voices. Voices louder than ours alone. It is hard times you guys. It is real. And I speak to you from the bottom of my heart. Please help me and our families in the many that are suffering.

This is our home. These are our children. This is my husband and this is our fight. Let him come home. Let our families be whole again, and let America keep its promise. Thank you guys for hearing me.

Miko: Lou Young is a community leader. Michigan, who actually runs a nonprofit in support of Hmong folks in that community, and is targeted and also has a stay of removal.

So we’re doing a targeted campaign for both of these folks, Lou Yang and Mohan Karki, to be able to get them released to overturn their original convictions and they also have spouses that are telling their stories and telling the impact these detentions have had. Because while this current administration talks about getting rid of criminals, what they are actually doing is breaking apart families and community.

Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and [email protected]. Coming up is Deporting the Pilgrim from the Anakbayan Long Beach Mayday Mix tape.

Swati Rayasam: That was please be strong, featuring Hushed, loudmouth and Joe handsome. And before that was deporting the pilgrim from the Unec Bayan Long Beach Mayday Mixtape. Now back to the show.

Miko:

I wanna shift us a little bit to talking about Asian american representation in the larger fabric of immigration justice in the United States. Mostly many of our Asian communities have been like isolated, not really involved in the broader immigration movement. And I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about the difficulty and nuance of bringing your community struggle to the forefront because many of us heard about the Venezuelans and the Mexicans that have been deported and what was going on, but we don’t hear as much about these stories of our Asian sisters and brothers. I wonder if one of you could give voice to that.

Robin: Before going there can I add something to

Miko: of course.

Robin: crimmigration conversation? So when you all are sharing about that, I was thinking about, the justice system in this country and what we are seeing right now is a broken justice system. Like you said, Miko, where families are separated where families are broken, and what I don’t understand is, when, let’s say your loved one gets into trouble, makes a mistake, and gets into a trouble, then, as a human being, like, don’t you want your loved ones to rebuild their lives? Like Yes, of course there is a system that you have to follow, the laws that you have to follow, but at the end, I think we all want our loved ones to come back, rebuild their lives, right?

And what we’re seeing in this country is they’re constantly breaking the families. And I don’t see how we are going to build a better future when we are constantly, hurting the families. And in the cases of detention and deportation, what we’re seeing is the double punishment. Like the mistakes that they had made, but then throughout their life, they have to go through that, a continuous cycle of being punished. And not just the individuals, but their family members have also go through the challenges, the suffering, right? And in the case of Bhutanese from double punishment to double expulsion to this, the state of being statelessness. Right? So what kind of future we are imagining when an individual has to go through that continuous cycle of being punished and not having the opportunity to rebuild their lives. So that’s a big question mark that I think, we all need to think about.

To your later question around my community and the larger Asian American context or the national context. My community is relatively new to this country. We lived, almost two decades in a refugee camp, which was a enclosed camp. And our lives were dependent on foreign aids like UNHCR or ILWF. Pretty much I would say we had our own world over there. And for us to work outside the refugee camp was illegal. There was no laws that gave us the permission to work outside. So we were not pretty much exposed to the outer world. So for us to come to US was a big step. Which means pretty much from basic every day stuffs like, you know, using a bathroom, using a kitchen, taking a bus. All of those were foreign for us. So for our community to really tap into the education system, the political landscape of this country. And also like the experience of being expelled for voicing our, our opinions, for fighting for our rights.

Right? So for us, for our community to kind of step in into the politics, it’s like re-traumatizing ourselves. I would say there are a lot of barriers, multi-layered barriers for our community members to really tap into the larger political, like socio political landscape, from language barriers to culture barriers to education, to pretty much everything.

So right now, the way our committee has been being attacked. It’s a surprise to the community. And also it is like kind of traumatizing the community and taking us back to the same place of feeling, insecure, feeling like we don’t have a home. And we did hope that this is legally, this is going to be a home.

Because after coming to the US most of us became the legal citizens of this country and we started rebuilding our lives. Now it’s kind of like going back to the same circle of statelessness.

Miko: Thank you for sharing about that. Kao Ye, would you like to add to that?

Kao Ye: When I think of the Hmong American community and even the Southeast Asian community and why the narratives of what is happening still feels very invisible. I think of how our community, we were assimilating for survival. And I speak on that as a child of my refugee parents and siblings where growing up we were taught to, listen, not speak out, not cause trouble. Go through the system, listen to authority, listen to law enforcement. And because of that, I feel it’s shaped a culture of fear. Fear to dissent and fear to speak out because we care so much about the stability of our families. And we wanted to protect ourselves, because of everything we’ve gone through with the war.

And we are finding that it’s been challenging for our community members to come forward with their stories. Honestly, we’re still sitting on that and we’re still kind of sitting through like, why is there that tension? You know, I feel like folks are going through a lot and even folks have, our impacted loved ones, but they’re afraid to tell their story because of fear of of retaliation.

And so I think that there is a level of, I think that lack of even psychological safety, but real, physical, real financial safety that people have. And I think that being a factor to the assimilation, but also this facade of like the American dream and like if we don’t just disrupt, if we don’t speak out, we will be protected.

And, white supremacy, right? Like we will be okay. And it’s a facade because we know that because our communities are the ones getting kidnapped and getting deported. Right. And so I think there is that fear, but there’s also recognition of this now, this facade that the silence doesn’t protect us and that there is a real need for us to really, be strong in speaking out, not just for our SEA siblings that are impacted, but for all of our immigrant groups, even the Bhutanese community, right.

That’s been impacted during this time. And so I, yeah, I think it is that multi-layered experience of being a Southeast Asian refugee community on top of, being part of this AAPI umbrella. AAPI we are not homogenous. We all have very unique histories as to how we have dealt with the systems in this country and how we came into this country.

And so I think it’s been challenging to make space for those nuances. And at the end of the day, I still see the interconnections that we all have together too. And so, I think it’s the willingness to make space for those different stories. And I am finding that more of our ethnic media, our smaller news outlets are more willing to cover those stories as opposed to, these larger mainstream outlets.

Like they’re not covering those stories, but we are.

Miko: Thank you. Oh, both of you have brought up so much today about our failed criminal justice system, about us punishing people as opposed to rehabilitating people and punishing them more than once. We brought up questions around statelessness and the impact that it has, and I just recently learned that the United States does not have any policy on Statelessness. So one of the things that this coalition of folks is trying to do is to get a congressional hearing to help the United States develop policy around statelessness, because it is actually our responsibility and our duty to do that. The other thing I hear you both talking about is this good immigrant, bad immigrant trope, which we’ve heard of a lot, but I think that’s also very much connected to why so many members of our communities don’t wanna speak out because this connection with, you know, quote unquote criminal history might be something that’s shameful. And I’m wondering if you both see that as a divide mostly between elders in the community and younger folks.

Robin, do you wanna talk about that?

Robin: Yeah. I mean, initially when we were mobilizing our community members to fight against the the unjust and unfair detention and deportation, this issue around the perception around good immigrants and bad immigrants became one of the main topic of discussion.

We had to deal with people, and mostly elders, but I would say some young folks as well, who would pull themselves back on speaking against this issue because for them people who are being deported or detained are criminals and they deserve this kind of mindset.

And not being able to see the larger picture of how the administration is targeting the immigrant and the refugee population of this country and really trying to dismantle community power, right? So, yes, it is a challenge that we are, we’re going through and I think it’s going to be quite a bit of work, to really build solidarity within our own communities.

Kao Ye: I feel that the divide in the Hmong community is stemming from class and education. I feel as though when folks are articulating, regurgitating these justifications of the bad immigrant as to why folks should be deported it’s folks that maybe kind of made it in their lives and now they’re comparing themselves to folks that were not in that situation.

And there is this growing within our community as well, where some folks are getting that education, getting, good jobs. But so much of our community, we still suffer from poverty, right? And so, I think that has been really interesting to witness the level of division because of class, because of income and also the education piece.

Because oftentimes when folks are feeling this, it comes from a place of ignorance as well. And so that’s why I think the education piece is so important. I actually feel though our elders are more understanding because these are their children that are being separated from them. And Robin’s point is that when we have loved ones that go through the system, we just want them to rebuild their lives and be self-sufficient.

And I feel like those are the values that I grew up in my community where our parents were always about keeping the family together to a fault, you know? And so they don’t want separation. They just want us to be well and to do well, and to turn our lives around. And so, I feel strongly that our elders, they do understand that the importance of giving this opportunity for us to, to stay together and turn our lives around.

Miko: Thank you so much, both of you for joining me here today to talk about this important conversation. I’m wondering if you could provide our audience with how they could find out more about what is going on and what are next steps for our audience members. Robin, let’s start with you.

Robin: Yeah. I just wanted to add what, Kao Ye talked about.

I do agree the patterns around the divide is based on class. And I do see that in the community, and not just the class, but in our community class and caste, I would say. And in terms of the class, there were some instances where we had to deal with even the highly educated like PhD holders kind of, questioning us like, you know, what we are advocating for, and, I couldn’t understand like, I couldn’t relate the education, the title, the degree that he holds and the perception around this issue. Right. So, I just wanted to echo that.

So, in terms of our work and Asian Refugees United, our website is www.asianrefugees.org And you can find us in our Instagram, Facebook, Asian Refugees United.

Miko: And you can also get latest news about what’s happening at bhutaneserefugeerights.com. Yeah. And Kao Ye how can folks find out more about your work?

Kao Ye: Right now HIP is part of a statewide network in California called the Pardon Refugees Campaign, where we are really pushing Governor Newsom to pardon all refugees, not just Southeast Asians because of everything that we talked about, about how our families, they deserve to stay together. And so, I don’t think we have a website up yet, but you can follow this campaign with us. We will be having a rally and press conference, coming up soon, in the next few weeks. And so, I would say that please follow us in that work where we are really moving in coalition with all of our uh, grassroots partners to advocate for our loved ones that are currently being impacted.

Miko: Thank you so much, Robin Gurung, Asian Refugees United and Kao Ye Thao from Hmong Innovating Politics. Thank you so much for being with us here today, and I hope you listeners out there take action to keep our families together, to keep our people in the communities as loved ones where they belong. Thank you all.

Have a great night.

Swati Rayasam: I’m so grateful that Miko was able to talk to Robin and Kao Ye. And for those who missed it, visit bhutanese refugee rights.org for the most recent updates on the Bhutanese refugees. The press conference in rally Kao Ye mentioned took place last week on August 21st, 2025, but check out the Pardon Refugees Campaign for updates from the coalition supporting Hmong, Cambodian Laotian, Myan, and other refugees facing deportation.

Thanks so much for tuning in to Apex Express. Please check out our website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action.

We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by  Miko Lee, along with Jalena Keene-Lee, Ayame Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar,  Anuj Vaida, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Ravi Grover, and me Swati Rayasam.

Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support and have a good night.

The post APEX Express – 10.23.25 -And We Become Stateless Again appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

TAKE ACTION

Rising Voices campaign for Lue Yang

Mohan Karki’s GoFundMe

And please help support these organizations working to support detained and deported folx:

Asian Law Caucus

Asian Refugees United

Ba Lo Project in Vietnam

Collective Freedom in Vietnam & Laos

Asian Prisoner Support Committee & New Light Wellness in Cambodia

November 1–2, people nationwide are joining the Disappeared In America Weekend of Action to stand up for immigrant families and defend due process. Actions include protests at Home Depots, candlelight Freedom Vigils, and Day of the Dead events honoring lives lost to detention.

The following day, November 3, 4pm Pacific time, 7pm Eastern Time, Join us for “We Belong Here, Bhutanese & Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness” a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations. bit.ly/WBH-2025

We Belong Here! Show Transcript

Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. This is your host, Miko Lee. Today we’re talking about detentions and potential deportations and the atrocities that the Trump administration is creating in our communities. And today I am so honored to have three guests with me, Tika Basnet, and Ann Vu, and Aisa Villarosa. Tika and Ann they’re part of a horrible club, which is both of their spouses are currently in detention from our immigration system. But I just wanna start on a real personal note in a way that I often do with my guests. Anne, I’m gonna start with you. I just would love to hear from you, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Ann Vue: Thank you again, Miko and Isa, you guys for having me on. So we are Hmong. And we helped Americans during the Vietnam War. And so, during the Vietnam War in Laos, a lot of our pilots needed a communication. And because we’re indigenous and we are in the mountains, they were able to speak with us and use us. And so a lot of our Hmong, what they did or what they contributed helped a lot of the pilots rescued a lot, like thousands and thousands of Americans, really, so that that way they can make it back home, right?

And so that is our contribution to the American people. And so when we were brought to America, was to resettle because of humanitarian purpose. Really because of our legacy of helping Americans with the war, right? So that is who we are and what we bring to America. And that’s who I am. I’m, and I’m actually the first generation Hmong American too. So I was born right here in the capital of Lansing, Michigan.

Miko Lee: Thanks so much ann. And Tika, can you share who are your people and what legacy you carry with you?

Tika Basnet: Yes. Hi, my name is Tika Basnet. So I am Bhutanese Nepali community. My parents and all the Bhutanese, they ran away from Bhutan in 1990 due to the ethnic cleansing. And they came to Nepal, seeking for asylum, and that is where we born. I was born in Nepal, in refugee camp. Even though I was born in Nepal, Nepal never gave us identity. They never give us citizenship, so we were known as Bhutanese Nepali, but as known as Stateless. And yeah, my husband also born in Nepal in a refugee camp.

Miko Lee: Thank you, Tika. And Aisa, I’m gonna ask the same question for you Aisa, my friend that works at Asian Law Caucus. Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Aisa Villarosa: So much love to you, Miko and to you Ann and Tika for being here today. I just am, I’m so honored.My name is Aisa and I carry the love and, Maki Baka spirit of Filipino Americans both in my family across the diaspora. A little bit about the Filipino American story. We came to the United States as part of the colonial machine. The first Filipinos were brought as part of the Spanish Gallian trade. We made California home, parts of Louisiana home, and it’s quite a contrast to a lot of the sort of model minority seduction that many of my people, and myself as a younger person tended to fall into that if we kept our heads down, if we were quiet, we would be left alone.

I’m struck because at this moment of just unprecedented government attacks, so many of our communities have this story where someone somewhere said to us, yeah, just keep your head down and it’ll be fine. And we’re seeing the exact opposite, that this is the time to really use our voices, both individually and as one. And I’m also an artist and try to infuse that into my work in fighting government systems.

Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. And in the interest of fairness, I will say I’m Miko. I am fifth generation Chinese American. I grew up knowing that my family was full of fighters that built the railroads, worked in the gold mines in laundromats and restaurants, and my parents walked with Dr. King and Cesar Chavez and Dolores Huerta, and I was raised in a family of social justice activists. So I feel like our legacy is to continue that work and to fight for the rights of our peoples. That being said, I’m so honored to have both of all three of you powerful women join me today. And as I was saying in the beginning, Tika and Anne are sadly a part of this club. Nobody wants to be a part of this club with the sudden, unexpected, harmful detentions of both of your husbands. I wonder if you can each just share the story about what happened and how you first found out about your husband being detained. And let’s start with you Tika.

Tika Basnet: So, my husband got his removal in 2014 when he was like minor. Just 17 years old, high school student going from school to home and, he’s a teenager and with his friend, like they were playing around and they wanna go home really fast. So they just cross from private property. And I think that is where someone saw and call 911. So we came from the culture that we love to go people home , walking around, playing around. So my husband came here in 2011. The incident happened on 2013. So he was just, came here without knowing culture, without knowing languages, So he has no idea.

So when somebody called 911, he could not explain what happened. First of all, English is his second language, he was barely here without knowing rules and regulation, without knowing culture.

The police get them and then they took him to jail I think police gave a lot of charges. And even until now, my husband doesn’t know what are those charges? At that time, nobody explained, this is the three charges you got, and this could lead to deportation. And he feel guilty without knowing those charges. And just because he trusts Nepali translate guy, and he told my husband, like, if you don’t say I’m guilty, you will end up in prison for 20 to 25 years, but if you say I’m guilty, you’ll go home.

And my husband said, guilty. And at that time, neither criminal lawyer told my husband, like, if you say I’m guilty, you’ll end up getting deport. Deport to the contrary that you are you never born. Deport To the contrary, you doesn’t even speak their language. And even the lawyer did not explain my husband like, you will not gonna get your green card.

You cannot apply your citizenship in your life. If all of, if those things like the lawyer told my husband at that time, he will never gonna say, I am guilty to the crime that he did not even commit. And so when they tried to deport my husband back then, Bhutan say, he’s not my citizenship, he’s not from my country, We don’t know this guy. He’s not belongs to here.

And when US Embassy reach out to, Nepal, do you know this guy? They told, ICE no, we don’t know this guy, like he’s not belongs here. And then the ICE officer, they told my husband, like, we can let you go, you need to come here, like order of supervision every years, every three months, every six months, whenever we call you.

And it been 11 years. My husband is following rules and regulation. After that incident, never police arrest him. He did not even get criminal record. He did not even get misdemeanor record. So basically he never did any violation after that. So he was following, he got married, he has a life, he pay taxes. He was taking care of his family and in 11 years he was doing everything. And in 2025 for the first time they target Bhutanese Nepali community. And at that time I knew that this is the last time I’m gonna see my husband. And that is a time I think I broke down. Like, when they detained my husband in April 8, I was eight months pregnant. And um, like we dream a lot of things like, you know, we are gonna take care of our daughter. We are gonna buy home, we are gonna work, we are gonna give her the life that we, I’m sorry.

Miko Lee: Totally. Okay.

Tika Basnet: So, yeah. Um, like I never thought like Bhutanese community can, like deport. Like my parent already , go through this trauma, you know, when Bhutan throw them away due to ethnic cleansing and same thing happening to us. It is unbelievable. I cannot believe that, we’re going through this again and I don’t know when this gonna be stopped. I don’t know whether like my husband gonna come home.

I dunno. Like I’m fighting and it is been five month and I really want my husband back. Like my daughter today is, she’s three month old. She need her dad in life. ’cause I cannot provide everything by myself. My husband is the main provider for her aging parent. ’cause even now they cannot pay bills. Like they have really hard time paying bills.

And this is the reason, like I’m fighting for my husband case and I want my husband back. And I think he deserve second chance because if you see his record is clean, like for one incident that happened like 12 years ago, that cannot define my husband. Like who he is right now, you know?

So yeah, this is what happened. Like I cannot believe that my husband is able to get deport to the country that doesn’t even accept. And I don’t know whether he gonna get killed. I dunno what, whether he gonna disappear, I don’t know what will happen to him. I don’t know if it is last time I’m gonna see him.

Miko Lee: Tika, thank you so much for sharing your story. And just to recap really briefly, your husband, Mohan Karki when he was a teenager, newly arrived in the country, was leaving high school, walked with his friends through a backyard and was suddenly racially profiled. And the neighbor called police because he was trespassing on property.He was born at a refugee camp. Is that right?

Tika Basnet: Yes.

Miko Lee: And so there was not property that was like person’s property on that refugee camp. So that whole concept of walking across somebody’s land was something he was not aware of. He had an interpreter that did not give correct or full information. And so he signed something, including a deportation order, that he wasn’t actually, wasn’t even aware of until recently when he was put into detention. Is that right?

Tika Basnet: Yes. Yes.

Miko Lee: And right now he’s in detention. You’re, you live in Ohio, but he’s in detention in Michigan, right?

Tika Basnet: Yes.

Miko Lee: Okay, Tika, let’s talk about Mohans case and what’s happening. He’s held in detention right now in a detention facility in Michigan. And what is going on with his case?

Tika Basnet: Yeah, I don’t wanna say a lot of things about his case, but our attorney, his criminal attorney does file, a Motion to Redeem asking BIA to send that, case back to Georgia and we recently hired, criminal attorney to fight for his case, that happened in 2013. And our attorney just submit documentation where he’s asking to release my husband because it’d been five month. And he’s not risk to the community. He’s not risk to the flight. ’cause he doesn’t have no one in Bhutan. He doesn’t have no one in Nepal. He’s all family is in here. So his community love him ,he has family that loves him. And, we also get lot of documentations as a proof telling ICE officer that my husband is not risk to the community or, to the flight.

Miko Lee: Thank you. And he has a new baby, a four month old baby that he has yet to meet. So that is a powerful reason to stay. And as Tikas pointing out, the lawyer just submitted documentation along with 50 letters of support from the community , from employers, from family members, all saying why he should stay in this country. Thank you so much for sharing. And Anne, i’m wondering if you could share about what happened to your husband. He was also born in a refugee camp, right?

Ann Vue: So, Lou was born in Nangkai, Thailand refugee camp. In 1978 and in 1979 his parents and him and his older brother received parole for legal entry. I think the exact word was, they were paroled pursuant under section 212D5 of the I and N Act, which means that they are granted urgent humanitarian reasons for or for public benefit.

Right. Because my father-in-law had helped and during the war. And so he received his visa in September. I just lookeded back at all of his history there and then they made it to America right before Halloween ’cause my father-in-law was like, I always remembered it because in the country of Asia, they’re scared of halloween, scary Halloween stuff. And so when they came, they were like, oh my gosh. There were, Jesus says, I remember there were just a lot of zombies, right? And we were so scared because we were like, and so I always remember that about, you know, I’ll fast forward it to 1997, right when he just turned, I believe 18 and very similar to Tika, you know, her husband too.

And a lot of times, in the early nineties, me even being the first generation American here, racism played a lot. And we all went through that piece and our parents not speaking English at the same time, they were going to school themselves so that they can learn our English language, right.

And they weren’t able to teach us growing up. So we had to kind of fend for ourselves. And I would say my husband he went out with some friends. He did not commit the crime. But of course now that is brought back to him, he understood about his particular case is second attempt, home invasion.

Nobody was harmed. He was in the vehicle, in the backseat when he was caught. And he didn’t wanna partake, but he didn’t wanna stop them either, you know? ’cause to him it was like, if I don’t partake, then I have nothing to do with it. Right. Because if I do, then they might not be my friends anymore. I mean, it’s just a part of growing up as a youth.

But because he was there, and then would receive a court appointed attorney, and then provide it very similar to Tika’s too. Had an interpreter, that was explaining to them, was provided bad legal advice. He had nothing, no knowledge about how this would impact his immigration status. He would take a plea, and it was advised by their attorney, take the plea it’s easier, you know, and you probably serve less than a year. You’ll be out, you’ll only be in the county jail anyways ’cause you didn’t really commit the crime and technically it should have been a misdemeanor. But because you’re an accomplice , that kind of falls under this category. So he took the plea, he served 10 months in a county jail.

He actually was released for good behavior. He even finished his probation soon because he paid all of his stuff off. And he even finished a youth advocate program, a youth training program for anybody that committed crimes between the age of 18 to 21. I actually just saw this form the other day and I was reading it and it talks about, you know, the one thing about our parents, experiencing the war and coming to America, they don’t talk about it.

And a lot of us are from communist countries . We’re, we are very afraid to voice our voices, because someone can take action. And our parents never talked about it. And I read what he wrote to his, youth coordinator, and he wrote, he felt so bad about what he did. He created disappointment for his parents and he understands now after his parents told him, there are sacrifices that got us here to America.

And he literally wrote all of this down, he’s going to be a better person, is what he wrote. I’m going to be a better person. I’m going to make my parents proud now that I understand their sacrifices. And, they asked him, well what was your upbringing like? And in one sentence, he wrote, poor, right? So he wrote, poor and the coordinator wrote on the bottom of his comments said, Lou is remorseful for what has happened or for what ha what has happened, and very remorseful and he wants to be a better person. I have no other questions. The training is complete. He doesn’t need any further, support and believes that he will move forward to be a better person.

That’s what literally what they wrote on the document. Then fast forwarding to 1999 , after everything was done and he served, that’s when, immigration showed up at his house. And from there moved forward to explain to him what had happened. And once that happened, of course him and I would meet in 2000, and then we’d be married in 2001.

Right? So we’d celebrate. Almost 24 and a half years of marriage. Right? So we did appeal his case in the humanitarian piece of what this meant for Lou during the time where we all fled the country. Once we were, once the monks were declared enemy of the state by the LDR in Laos, we fled.

And once we fled, it’s well documented that there was a little bit over 400,000 of us there right after all the genocide and the killings of the Hmong there was probably less than 45,000 of us left, right? And so once we understood a lot of that, we wanted to do better. We wanted to really service our community, right?

So. Fast forwarding it. We appealed the case. The case was then denied I believe in 2002. And even in his letters, in his appeal letters, general Vink Powell, which led the, Hmongs during, in the war, even had a letter in there where he, to also pled why Hmongs need to stay here in America, right. And why we need to bring the rest of our people to this country.

The reality is our whole family, Lou’s whole family was wiped out. We don’t have anybody, Lou doesn’t have anyone, right? And so you know, that goes to Tikas thing too. There’s nobody there. And, going back to the case once it was denied in 2002, of course he then. Was forced to reach out to the embassy and reached out to the embassy and was denied, entry into Thailand ’cause that’s where he was born.

We’re stateless too, just like Tikas husband. We were denied by Thailand. We were also denied by Laos stating that we are not a citizen of theirs. They do not allow or welcome any sort of entry. And then in 2006, that’s when they actually took his green card was in 2006 and then we prompt again we were denied. And then in 2008 we were denied a third time and that’s when his immigration officer was like, just move on and start your life. Laos and Thailand, will never sign a repatriation act with America because of you guys, because of the Hmong people, what you guys have done to their country, making it the most bombed country during the war without even being a part of the war.

So therefore, they will never allow you guys or accept you guys back. And so we were like, okay. So we moved forward and then in 2014, this immigration officer, which we was doing yearly checkups at this time, was like, Hey go get your citizenship, get your green card. They’re like you’re doing so good.

You know, you probably could have a chance to get it. That’s when we moved forward to apply for citizenship and for all we did for the green card and then for citizenship. And of course we were denied in 2015 and we know how expensive this is. You pay $10,000 outright, you don’t get that money back.

You just have to go at it again, right? And so, uh, we decided that, you know what, we’re gonna get his case expunged, and so. We got his case expunged in 2018, no questions asked. It was very straightforward. Once it was expunged, we continued, with our lives. Very involved in the community. And we had all of our children by that time already, so we had six kids already. So fast forwarding to that, and then leading up to his detainment, which this year we even called his immigration officer and he was like, Hey, don’t worry about it, Lou, we’re moving you over to Grand Rapids and you should be fine.

Just make sure that you stay outta trouble, continue to follow your stock and I think what triggered it was when we applied for his work permit in April. Because he was supposed to, he always meets his immigration officer at the end of the year, and we renewed his work permit is what triggered it.

And so of course, the money was cashed out, everything the checks went through while we were receiving that, he was gonna be here, everything was gonna be fine. And then leading up to July 15th where he was detained at work, early morning of six 30 in the morning, the detained officer they they told him that they know who he is to the community, so they have to do it this way because they don’t want any problems. They don’t want media, they don’t want reporters. He did play with them. He did ask them because he rode his motorcycle for some weird reason. He has not taken his bike out, his motorcycle out in the last three years.

But for some reason that night he was like, I just wanna take my bike. So he took his bike that night and when ICE told him, do you have somebody come get your bike?

You need to call somebody to come get your bike. And he was like, nobody in my family rides motorcycles. Like we don’t, I don’t have anyone to come get my bike. And I think there was some empathy and compassion for him. He was like, okay, let me check on something. Because my husband was like, can I just take my bike back?

I’ve got six kids. I’ve got my grandma at home and my parents are also at my house right now. I just wanna see them and I just wanna take my bike back. So they asked him, if we let you go, we asked will you like please don’t run. Right? And so they followed my husband home and my husband literally called me at 6 37 in the morning and he was like, Hey, ICE is, here they got me.

So I’m like, what? What’s going on? So it was just so surreal. I was so shocked. And so it’s about a 30 minute drive from his workplace back to our house. And um, when he got there, um, they, there were already officers, like there were, it was packed tight in our driveway. So our driveway’s pretty far up because we live in the country.

And so, there were like five or six cop cars there too. So we had to walk about half a mile down to go see him. They wouldn’t allow him to enter where our home was. And the officer told, my husband, told him that they’re so sorry.

They have to do it this way. They know who he is. They don’t want any problems, they don’t want any reports in media out here. And I will say my experience was a little bit different from others. They did take their mask off when they took him in, they were respectful so that part is that much.

They even, you know, talk to my two older boys like, “Hey, you guys have money. I could put the money in your dad’s account.” We’re, take him into Grand Rapids, we’re gonna process him, and then we’re gonna take him to the detention center, which is gonna be involved in Michigan.

So they were very open about these steps, what they were doing with him, at least that much. But I will say that it was my grandma, of course she has chronic pulmonary disease stage four. So at that point we, we couldn’t haul her fast enough because we only saw him for like maybe a quick minute, and that was it. And so they did ask us to turn around because they had to take him back and they didn’t want my, our little ones to see them cuffing him.

Miko Lee: They actually said, Anne, we don’t want any media to be watching this?

Ann Vue: I don’t want any problems.

Miko Lee: Mm. And and your husband is also quite well known in the Hmong community, right?

Ann Vue: He is

Miko Lee: and so probably, they were worried about folks coming out and protesting. Is that, do you think that was the case?

Ann Vue: That’s what I’m assuming, because I don’t remember their exact words saying media, but I do remember they were saying that they didn’t want people around, they didn’t want to create issues for the community.I am assuming that correct, because if he would’ve gotten the letter just like everybody did, which everybody then would receive the letter on Friday, and because my husband is a community leader, he is the Hmong Family Association’s president, we restart receiving. Many, many calls where everybody just wanted to talk to Lou ’cause they needed to know what’s going on, how to handle, what to do. And so at that moment I realized, oh my gosh, they detained my husband first this way. And then everybody else got a letter.

Miko Lee: And the ICE officer that he had been checking in with routinely has, have you all been in touch with that same ICE officer?

Ann Vue: He has been, I think in the last seven or eight years.Yeah. It’s been the same guy.

Miko Lee: But has he been in touch with him since he was detained?

Ann Vue: He hasn’t.

Miko Lee: Has not, no. So they had different people come in even, ’cause he was the person that said everything’s okay, keep going with your life.

Ann Vue: Oh yeah.

Miko Lee: And so no contact with him whatsoever since the detention?

Ann Vue: No.

Miko Lee: Can you give a little bit of an update of Lou’s case and what’s going on with him right now?

Ann Vue: I don’t know as much. Maybe I may have to have Aisa respond to the legality piece around it. ’cause I know we’re, they’ve been doing, working around the clock and working hard on strategy.

Miko Lee: Okay. Thank you so much, Aisa. Before we move into that, I just wanna point out, for all of our listeners, how many similarities there are in these two cases. And in both of these, you know, these amazing women are here supporting their spouses, both, spouses born in refugee camps.

Dealing with intergenerational trauma from families that had to escape ethnic cleansing or involved in a war, came into the United States under, legal properties through refugee resettlement acts, made mistakes as young people, partially due to culture and wanting to fit in. They served their time, they paid their dues.

They were racially profiled to be able to actually be in those positions that they were in. They suffered from incredible immigration policy failure with bad advice, with a system that’s broken. And now both of them are detained. Not yet deported, but detained. Many of the community members have already been deported and they’re facing statelessness.

And we’re seeing this not just with Bhutanese and Hmong folks, but with Mien and Lao and Haitian and El Salvadorian. And we could fill in the blank of how many other peoples in other communities are facing this. So, we also know that these private detention centers where people are being held, are making millions and millions of dollars, and it’s connected into our corrupt political system that’s in place right now. We also know and Aisa, I’m wondering if you could, talk about the case, but also about some of the deals that we think have had to be made with Laos and Bhutan in order for these deportations to even take place. So Aisa from Asian Law Caucus, I’m gonna pass it to you to go over some of the legal ramifications.

Aisa Villarosa: Of course, Miko, and thank you for it for the context. And there are so many parallels that we as advocates must uplift because this is not the time to be divided. This is really the time to build solidarity that we’ve long known needs to happen. And, and this is really the moment. What Miko is referring to is, uh, largely, um, something that we’ve observed around the travel bans.

So. Earlier this year, right around the time that the Trump administration took hold, there was a draft travel ban list that leaked across a number of media outlets, the Times, et cetera, and the same countries we’re talking about today, Bhutan, Laos. These were historically not countries that were subject to sanctions, like the travel ban, and yet here they were.

And so a lot of us were scratching our heads and asking, you know, what, why is this happening? Our theory, and this is a theory that is now also manifesting in a number of FOIA requests or Freedom of Information Act requests that are submitted from Asian Law Caucus to departments like the State Department ice, the Department of Homeland Security.

Asking the same question that Tika and Anne are asking, which is, how are these deportations even happening? Because they were not happening until this year. And what very likely happened was a bit of a quid pro quo. So in removing Bhutan, removing Laos from this list where they could be sanctioned as a country, there was likely some backdoor deal that took place between the US State Department and Bhutanese officials and the US officials, where essentially there was some form of an agreement that there would be an acceptance or a supposed acceptance of a certain number of folks from these communities. That is why around March, around April for the Bhutanese refugee community, for example, we started seeing pickups very similar to Mohans case, where, many people who had perhaps made some mistakes in their youth or had really old criminal convictions were swept off the streets and thrust into these really rapid deportation proceedings.

I don’t even know if proceedings is the right word, because there essentially was no proceeding. You know, the Immigration Court is very much a cloaked process. The immigration judge is kind of judge and jury wrapped up together, which is very different than many of us might turn on the TV and see something like Law and order.

An immigration court works a very different way where this piece of paper, this final removal order, basically gives ICE a lot of bandwidth to make these deportations happen. However, that doesn’t mean we should just accept that this is happening. We know that just basic procedures of fairness are not being met.

We know, too that in the case of, for example, the Bhutanese community ICE officers have come to the wrong house. And put a lot of people in fear. So racial profiling was happening even before this recent Supreme Court decision, which essentially now condones racial profiling, right? As criteria that the ICE can use.

I also just wanted to talk about this trend too, that we’re seeing with so many cases. It happened to Lou, it happened to Mohan, where in someone’s underlying criminal court case, maybe they were given a court appointed attorney. In many cases, they were not told of the immigration impacts of, say, taking a plea.

There is a Supreme Court case called Padilla versus Kentucky and basically the law shifted such that in many cases there now is a duty for a court appointed public defender to actually talk to folks like Mohan and Lou about the immigration consequences of their plea. So when Tika mentioned that there’s something called a post-conviction relief effort for Mohan.

That’s happening in Georgia. This is very much what that legal defense looks like, where, an expert attorney will look at that very old court record, see if those rights were violated, and also talk to Mohan and make sure did that violation happen and is that grounds for reopening an immigration case. For Lou, there is a really mighty pardoning campaign that’s brewing in the state of Michigan. So in Michigan, governor Gretchen Whitmer does have the authority to in some cases expedite a pardon in process.

We’re hoping that this public swelling of support from Mohan will result in a pardon, because importantly, even if Mohans conviction was expunged, which can be very helpful in, for example, state court, arenas, things like, applying for certain jobs.

Unfortunately, in the immigration arena the expungement does not have that same weight as say a vacating, or a motion to vacate that criminal record. So it’s super frustrating because, so much of this turns ethically, morally on- do we, as people believe in second chances, and I know most people do, and [00:35:00] yet here we are really. Based on a technicality.

I also just want to name too that Lou as a person is both a natural organizer and he is a spiritual guide of his community. So something that many folks don’t know is because of so much of the trauma that Anne talked about, both from, supporting the Americans during the Secret War, many Hmong folks who came to the States, they actually in some cases died in their sleep because of this, almost unexplained weight of the trauma, right?

And so it almost underscores. The importance of Lou, not just to his family, but this family is a collective family, right? He’s both a mentor for so many, he’s a spiritual guide for so many. And so you know, him being away from his family, away from community, it’s like a double, triple wound. And then for Mohan, I’d love to uplift this memory I have of , a moment in June when Tika gave us a call, and at that point, Mohan had called Tika and said, they’re taking me, I’m being deported.

And at that point, they were removing Mohan from the ICE facility in Butler, Ohio and transporting him to. At first we had no idea. Then we learned it was, toward the Detroit airport or that deportation to Bhutan and Tika was forced to essentially delay her childbirth. It was very much in the range of when she was due to give birth to their daughter.

But because the clock was ticking, Tika drove to Butler, literally begged for Mohan’s life as our organizing and advocacy and legal team was trying to get together this emergency stay of deportation. That fortunately came through at the 11th hour. But the fact that Mohan remains in this facility in St. Clair, Michigan, that he’s never held his daughter is unacceptable, is ridiculous. And I think so much of these two cases almost, this invisible brotherhood of pain that I know Ann has talked to me about that. Because Lou right now has been in a couple facilities. He is organizing, he’s doing his thing and actually supporting folks while also just trying to keep himself well, which is no easy feat to do in so many of these facilities.

Especially because, in Alexandria, for example, which is a facility in Louisiana. We know that folks are sleeping on cement floors. We know that folks are not being fed, that there’s a lot of human rights violations going on. And here is Lou still continuing to use his voice and try to advocate for the folks around him.

Miko Lee: Aisa thank you so much for putting that into context, and we’ll put links in the show notes for how folks can get involved in both of these cases. One is, Rising Voices has a call to action to reach out to Governor Whitmer for that. Pardon in Campaign for Lou. So we encourage folks to do that. And in terms of Mohan, there’s a GoFundMe to help support Tika and the immense lawyer fees, which we discussed that are needed. And also a letter writing campaign to the ICE director Kevin Roff, to try and release Mohan and also Lou. These are really important things that are happening in our community, and thank you for being out there. Thank you for talking and sharing your stories.

We really appreciate you. And also, just briefly, I’d love us for us to talk for a minute about how many folks in our Asian American communities, we don’t wanna talk about mistakes that we have made in the past because we might consider that shameful. And therefore, in both of these communities, when we started organizing, it was really hard at first to find people to come forth and share their stories.

So I wonder if both of you can give voice to a little about that, the power you found in yourself to be able to come forward and speak about this, even though some other folks in the community might not feel comfortable or strong enough to be able to talk. Tika, can you speak to that?

Tika Basnet: Yeah. So what makes me really strong, and I wanna see that my husband case is because he was 17, people can make mistake and from those mistake, if people are learning. Then I think Americans should consider, ’cause my husband did make mistake and I wish that time he knew the rules and regulation.

I wish like somebody taught him that he’s not supposed to go somebody else property, like around in backyard. And I wish he was been in the United States like more than one and a half year. I wish, if he was like more than two years, three years. And I think that time he, from high school, he could learn.

You know, he’s not supposed to go there. He was just been in the United States like one and a half year just going to high school. Nobody taught him. His parent doesn’t even speak English. Until now, he doesn’t even, they doesn’t even speak, like nobody in our community knew rules and regulation.

So no, basically that he doesn’t have guide, like mentor to taught him like, and even though he did make mistake and he’s really sorry, and from those mistake learning a lot, and he never get into trouble, like after 11 years, he was clean, he work, he pay taxes. And I think, that is the reason that I really wanna come forward.

You know, people can make mistake, but learning from those mistake that changed people life. And, and I think, the reason that I’m coming forward is because organization like Asian Law Caucus, ARU, and, Miko, a lot of people helped me. You know, they taught me like people can make mistake and, I think we shouldn’t be same.

And I really wanna give example to my daughter, you know, that, you are fighting for justice and you shouldn’t fear. I think, what is right is right. What is wrong is wrong. But if somebody’s make mistake and they are not, doing that mistake again, I think the people can get a second chance.

And I think my husband deserves second chance and he’s 30 years old. He has a family, he has a wife, children and he deserved to be here. We came here legally, my husband came here. Legally, we, promise that we’ll get home and this is our home. We wanna stay here and I really want my husband be home soon so he can play with her daughter to play with his daughter.

Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Tika. Ann I wonder if you could talk to the strength that it takes for you to come forward and speak about your husband and your family.

Ann Vue: I’m a community leader with my husband too, right? I would say that there was a moment when he was first detained where I was in complete silence. I was so shocked. It took my attorney, Nancy, just talking to me about it. Of course, back to what Aisa said earlier in our communities, we’re afraid. I was so scared. I didn’t know what to do. It took me visiting my husband in Baldwin and letting him know that, hey, a bunch of community members are now reaching out and I think it’s hit our community. And that’s that. At that moment, he was like, you have to say something. You have to say something you have to make noise because you have a, 50% chance, right? We have a 50 50 chance. 50%. They’re gonna send me 50%. You’re gonna feel bad if you don’t say anything, right? 50 here, 50 there. It doesn’t matter.

But a hundred percent regret if you don’t say something. I thought about it and he was like, well, go out there, be my voice. He’s like, you’ve always been my voice. You got this right. And so when, I didn’t say no to Nancy. ’cause she really wanted to talk to our rep Mai you know about this.

And , Mai and I are pretty close too. And, I just knew if I said anything, Maya’s gonna be like mm-hmm. All the way. Right? So I just let Nancy help me, and my most vulnerable time. And I’m glad that she did. And I’m glad that we did get this out.

It is the most important thing for us, and I’ve been, I will say what keeps me going is all of those that have been impacted by this, from people like Tika. I have many, I call ’em sisters. We’re all in a lot of these group chats together. They’ve been also keeping me going.

Our amazing team of attorneys and everybody just strategizing through this unprecedented time. It’s really everyone’s voices. I get to talk to Lou daily. It’s definitely not cheap, but he gets to share each story of each person. I believe that everybody has a story and they might not be as lucky as maybe Tika or my husband, but at least now I have their story. I will be their voice. I will tell each person’s story, each name, each alien number that I track down, my husband’s even literally learned how to count in Spanish, just so he can give them like my phone number in Spanish in case they need to call an emergency.

Oh, I’m be getting a lot of calls. Right. I would say that that is what keeps me going because I think that Tika and I and many others are, hoping that there is going to be a better day, a brighter day. I hope that everyone can see that, our children are American, right? Our children, they deserve to have their fathers and their mothers. They deserve to grow with these parents. And with that being said, the most important thing to me is they’re not just bystanders.

They’re literally the future of America. I don’t want them growing up with trauma, with trying to ask me questions like, well mom, if we’re refugees and we helped, Americans as allies, and we come to this country, why is this payback like this? There’s a moral obligation that has to be there and they’re gonna grow up and they’re gonna be trauma by this.

I’ve got children right now that’s been talking about joining the National Guard. It speaks volume about what happens to my husband. He’s championed the Hmong, Michigan Special Gorilla unit, the Hmong veterans here in the last two years, really with helping them through resolutions, tributes, making sure that they have things, that they are out there, that people now know them, they are finally recognized.

This puts my husband at great danger by sending him back, because now he’s championed the veterans here. He celebrates our veterans here. So it’s a moral obligation. And I hope Tika, I hope that, and this is to every child, I hope that every child, they deserve their father’s presence.

There are many people who don’t even have their father’s presence and they wish their fathers were around. And our fathers wanna be around. And I hope that our daughter, I only have one daughter too, that someday they can, their fathers can be a part of their, the American culture.

So I, I hope that. We get that opportunity and I hope that somebody stop being scared, but turn around and help us. Help us. We came here legally, minor stuff, long decade old. Even lose share with me. This detainment has been worse than when he was, when he did time back in 1997. And I just hope that somebody hears our podcast, Miko. Thank you. And, Aisa and Tika. And they turn and they have some compassion and help us because this is the tone that we’re setting for the future of our American children.

Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. Tika, you wanna add?

Tika Basnet: Yes, I really wanna talk about what kind of husband Mohan is. Even though like he detained for five month and I cannot. I put lot of money in his account and there was one guy, I think his family cannot support him. And for me, like it is really hard. I’m not working. But even my husband called me like, you don’t need to put like money in my account, but can you please can you please put money in his account?

He did not eat food. His family did not have money. I can survive without eating food. But, I think his story is really touching me. And that time, like my husband was crying listening to that guy story in detention center and then I did put like $50 in his account. And my husband is giving person like, he love to give even though, he struggle a lot, even though, he doesn’t know what will happen when he get deport.

But, him saying other guy story. Does make him cry. I think this is the reason that I really wanna come forward. My husband is giving person, he’s lovely person, he’s caring person. And that is the reason I wanna come forward. I want people to hear our voice, rather than silent.

Because right now people know our story. But if I was silent back , then I don’t know whether my husband was already disappear. I don’t know whether he gonna die torture or maybe he will expel within 24 hours. I have no idea. So I think, my husband is number one support system for me, and I think because of him that I’m here sharing his story and yeah, like for years I had wonderful time with him. We build our dream and until 2025, our dream is destroy. I’m trying to build again. I’m hoping, like my husband is coming home soon and I’m hoping that this will be the last time that he will get detained. I hope that this will be the end.

I don’t want him to get detained or deported again. I’m really tired. I don’t know what to do. I’m hopeless. I hope listening to my story and Anna’s story that separating family is not good. Like it is affecting not only one person but his whole community, whole family.

We deserve to get our husband back. Because it is not only about the wife that is fighting for husband, it is the children. , They’re so small, they born here and we cannot raise alone, we cannot work. We have things to pay. And paying those bills and taking care of child alone is really difficult.

It is giving depression like it’s been five month, like I went through postpartum depression, I went through trauma and I don’t wanna deal anymore. Like I don’t have courage to do this anymore. We need our husband back.

Miko Lee: Thank you. And I think both of your husbands are also main caregivers for parents that are ailing in both cases. It’s a really important thing that we are intergenerational communities and as you both said, it’s not just about the children, but it’s also about parents and brothers and sisters and community members as well.

Thank you so much for lifting up your stories. I just wanna go back for one more thing. We talked briefly about the crazy expensive lawyer fees that have come up for families that they’ve been dealing with this, and then also Tika was just bringing up about detention and commissary fees. Can you talk a little bit about the prison industrial complex and the fees that are associated? As Anne was saying, just calling Lou every day the costs that are associated with those things. Many people that don’t have a family member that’s incarcerated don’t know about that. Can you share a little bit about what that system is?

Aisa Villarosa: Yeah, absolutely Miko. And, just to underscore, a big theme from this conversation, it is that the US made commitments and they have broken them, both with, as Anne talked about, the refugee experience is one that is made possible through US commitment of acknowledging what, people have survived, what they have given to the country.

And to look at this moment where folks are being removed to countries where not only do they have zero ties to, don’t speak the language, but, especially in the case of the Bhutanese refugee community, as Tika mentioned, it is [00:52:00] truly a double expulsion. So the fact that we have well-documented testimonials of folks really deported from Bhutan after they’re removed there into these life-threatening conditions that in some cases have actually resulted in a community member passing away. A community member passed away in large part because of the failure of the US to both care for them while in detention. So going back to that prison complex, but also just putting them in such a harrowing situation.

In another instance, a community member was found after wandering for over a hundred miles on foot. So this is not, deportation and the story ends. This is deportation. And, there is a family that is grieving and thinking through next steps, there is, this call to not have borders, break us the way that this country is trying to do.

And to say a little bit about the fees, USCIS, there, there has not been a point yet in history where so many changes and charges hurting families have been ushered in, But for this year, and so to give a couple examples of that – asylum cases for one, these often take many, many years through this administration.

Now, families have to pay a cost yearly for each year that your asylum application, languishes because we’re also seeing that those same folks who are supposed to process these applications are either being laid off or they’re being militarized. So something like USCIS where this was where one would go to apply for a passport.

Now the same department is literally being handed guns and they’re now taking folks during naturalization interviews. Other avenues to challenge your removal. Like I mentioned a motion to reopen. All these things used to be fairly affordable. Now they can cost many thousands of dollars on top of the attorney fees.

So something that’s been quite challenging for groups like Asian Law Caucus where we do have attorneys representing folks in removal proceedings, there’s often this misperception that oh it’s costing so much money. Attorneys are pocketing cash. And unfortunately there are some situations where some attorneys have been known to take advantage of families in this desperate moment.

But for many, many attorneys who are in this mix, they’re experts at this work. They’re trying to do the right thing. They’re both overwhelmed and they’re seeing these new charges, which make the battle really even more difficult. So to turn it back to the listeners, I would say that as powerless as this moment can make us feel everyone is bearing witness. Hopefully the listeners today can take in Anne’s story, can take in Tikas story and whatever power one has in their corner of the world, this is the moment to use that. Whether it’s your voice, whether it’s learning more about a community, maybe you’re learning about for the first time. This is really the moment to take action.

Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. I really wanna thank you all for being here with me today, for sharing your personal stories, your personal pain, and for recognizing that this is happening. We deeply believe that we need to keep our families together. That is really important. It is written into the very basis of this American country about redemption and forgiveness. And this is what we’re talking about for incidents that happened, misunderstandings that happened when these folks were young men, that they have paid for their, they have paid for their time, and yet they’re being punished again, these promises that were broken by this American government, and we need to find [00:56:00] ways to address that. I really wanna deeply thank each of you for continuing to be there for sharing your voice, for protecting one another, for being there and standing up for your family and for our community. Thank you for joining me today.

Check out our Apex Express Show notes to find out about how you can get involved. Learn about the Rising Voices campaign for Lou Young and Mohan Khaki’s GoFundMe and please help to support these organizations working every day to support detained and deported people. Asian Law Caucus, Asian Refugees, United Balo Project in Vietnam. Collective Freedom in Vietnam and Laos Asian Prisoner Support Committee and new light Wellness in Cambodia. November 1st and second people nationwide are joining the Disappeared in America Weekend of Action to Stand Up for Immigrant Families and Defend Due Process. Actions include protests at Home [00:57:00] Depots, candlelight, freedom Vigils, and Day of the Dead events, honoring lives lost to detention. The following day on November 3rd, 4:00 PM Pacific Time, 7:00 PM Eastern Time. Join us for We Belong here, Bhutanese and Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness, a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations. Find out more in our show notes.

Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program, apex Express to find out more about our show. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.

APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Have a great night.

The post APEX Express – 10.16.25 – We Belong Here appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

The post APEX Express – September 25, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Host Miko Lee speaks with author, activist Michelle MiJung Kim about her new Podcast, I Feel That Way Too. Then we listen to the first episode.

Michelle MiJung Kim Website

I Feel That Way Too podcast

I FEEL THAT WAY TOO show Transcript

Miko Lee: Welcome to APEX Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight I’ll be talking with author, speaker, and activist, Michelle MiJung Kim, about the new podcast. So we get to listen after the interview to the very first episode, and you get a little behind the scenes with activist Michelle MiJung. Kim, stay tuned. welcome, Michelle MiJung Kim to Apex Express. I’m so excited to chat with you. You are an award-winning author, activist, and now a podcast host. Hello girl. Welcome. Yay.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Hello. Thank you so much for having me, Miko. I’m so excited.

Miko Lee: I wanna start with my big question, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Michelle MiJung Kim: Hmm. What a deep question that I can go on forever about. My people are, first and foremost people who are in my life, who have supported me throughout. Everything that I’ve gone through in my life, including my friends and family who have different lineages, people, most of the people that I hold near and dear carry with them, a deep understanding of their historical trauma, their familial trauma, and people who are courageous enough to share them [00:02:00] with me. So that really creates this bond that I have with my people. A lot of my people are in the queer and trans community and in the physical space of the Ohlone land, also known as Oakland, California. A lot of my community rooted in my Asian American identity.

Miko Lee: Love this. My follow up, what is the legacy you carry with you from your people?

Michelle MiJung Kim: The legacy that I carry from my people that jumps out to me right now is the legacy of my grandparents. My grandparents were both born in Korea. My grandpa from the north, my grandma from the south, and I am always thinking about how my grandpa was fighting for the Korea’s liberation from Japanese occupation, and he was a writer himself. I always saw him writing and he had [00:03:00] stacks of paper ready to be published, but he ended up not being able to publish before he passed.

So my book dedication starts with my gratitude to my grandparents and my grandpa specifically. The legacy of his work, his spirit, his love for philosophy, social justice language I carry with me. My grandmother, who was part of the first class of women in her generation to go to a university she was a badass matriarch of our family and her energy, her audacity, her courage, her confidence in her herself and her community is what I try to channel. I think about them every day.

Miko Lee: Ugh. I love that. I’m wondering if you could share a little bit about your book.

Michelle MiJung Kim: My book is called The Wake Up Closing The Gap Between Good Intentions and Real Change and really it’s part memoir, part [00:04:00] principles of Social justice that I hold near to my heart. I really wanted to write a book that could be timeless and that could put into accessible ways how we can embody these values that are important for our collective liberation.

So much of the social justice work that I encountered throughout my education journey had been highly intellectualized and theoretical and sometimes not unpacked in ways that feel human. I wanna see how people are struggling to hold social justice values while living their daily lives.

How sometimes it gets challenging to embody the values that we say are important to us because it asks us to trade off our comfort and safety sometimes. I wanted to be really honest about my experience trying to live in alignment with my values, including the parts of my own contradictions and struggles and paradoxes that I’ve had to navigate.

Miko Lee: Such a powerful [00:05:00] book for the time of now in that it does have the personal story, but then also recognizing what’s happening in our world. It’s really action forward. Tell me how you got from this book to creating a podcast series called. I feel that way too. Tell me what inspired this whole series?

Michelle MiJung Kim: I think it is an extension of the work that I’ve been doing, which really marries personal storytelling and social justice values. I Feel that way too, exploring these tricky life questions like, can we be friends if we politically disagree? What if I’m not above revenge, even though I am a self-proclaimed abolitionist? Why do I have this urge to, be vengeful and why do I feel gleeful when people that have done harm get punished, right? Am I supposed to sleep with one person for the rest of my life? Am I a bad daughter? These are all the questions that I’ve struggled [00:06:00] with. I wanted to have an opportunity to unpack them with raw honesty and with guests that could really help guide me in thinking about these things while trying to stay tethered to my values around social justice.

I’ve always been a fan of audio storytelling. So this was the perfect opportunity to explore that, especially in an era where the world is constantly insisting we solve these issues in isolation and we deal with our traumas in shame and without each other’s witnessing. This is my way of hopefully making people feel a little bit less alone in their struggles and also in a way that, helps us to build more courage and community through stories.

Miko Lee: I binge the entire season. Super fun, super personal., I was wondering how did you decide on these topics? Did they come naturally [00:07:00] or did you create an arc? Tell me about your process.

Michelle MiJung Kim: I had probably two, three pages long list of topics that I wanted to explore and we had to pick and narrow it down. I wanted to tackle questions that felt existential in the collective psyche. I look at and feel into the zeitgeist of what is happening in the world . These are the questions that I wanted to explore because of my own life, but also some of these questions bring up a lot of shame and tension. when I looked at other podcasts that were exploring similar topics, I just felt as though a lot of these issues were being talked about in a very intellectualized way, in a very theoretical way without the raw sort of personal storytelling aspect that I was craving.

So this was my attempt at being, courageous and practicing what I preach and being able to share some of the more vulnerable [00:08:00] tensions that aren’t typically explored in the public arena.

Miko Lee: Oh wow. So two whole more pages for future seasons of shows to do. I was, struck by how vulnerable the episodes are, how they’re so personal. The first one being around, supporting your single mom and around financial and really emotional stability that really struck me as being so very personal and deep. I just wonder, has your mom and dad listened to the series or particularly that episode and what has been any response?

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. Um, my dad, no, but my mom, yes. I wanted my mom to listen to it before it aired. ’cause I thought that was the only fair thing to do. I gave her the option also to not have this air if she didn’t want it to go live.

And I was. So [00:09:00] scared about how she was gonna receive it. And for the listeners, the story really goes deep into my struggle around prioritizing her needs over my desires, and constantly living in this. Feeling of guilt for not doing more to support my mom. And also our definition of love and sacrifice being entangled in ways that feel sometimes impossible to navigate.

I had attempted to have this conversation years ago with my mom that like completely backfire that I talk about on the podcast and, since then, I just never broached the subject because I was so nervous about how she was gonna take it. , And my biggest fear was her feeling less loved and feeling, hurt by my honesty.

And so when it came time for me to present this podcast to her, I was incredibly nervous. What ended up happening was we ended up listening to the episode together. She was sitting [00:10:00] right there on the couch behind me and the, I played the episode and I just couldn’t look at her face. So instead of looking directly at her, I had my camera on , so I could look at her through my phone.

And I had my back toward her, and within the first five minutes she started crying. So I would pause the episode, talk to her about what was coming up for her. We would cry, we would fight, we would argue, we would apologize and we would cry again. So the entire episode that’s 30 minutes long, took us three hours to get through.

Miko Lee: Wow.

Michelle MiJung Kim: It was incredibly difficult emotionally. And it was probably one of the most pivotal interactions I’ve ever had with my mom. I’ve been able to be more honest than ever with her. [00:11:00] She got to also be honest in her reaction and response, and we were able to be really brave with our vulnerability, which we had never done because most of our lives, our love and , especially our pain was communicated through silence.

Just pretending that we’re not hurting because we don’t wanna hurt the other person. Very Asian. It was hard, very Asian, but it was also really healing.

Miko Lee: Wow. I would love, love, love a follow up episode with you interviewing your mom.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. I don’t if request that.

Miko Lee: I dunno if she’d be downed for that, but that would, I’m curious if you could share a little bit more about your needing to have your back toward her in the beginning and if that shifted over those three hours.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. I think it was my fear of my truth being seen by her , and the inability for me to face her [00:12:00] when I knew my truth was hurting her. Hmm. And I also didn’t want to pressure her to react in a certain way when I’m looking at her. So I, I, I don’t know if she knew that I was looking at her through my phone.

But I think I really wanted her to have an honest reaction and, that scared me. So I, and so at some point in. Yeah, I did turn around after I saw her crying. I paused the episode and I looked at her and I said, well, what’s coming up for you? And she, her first thing, the first thing that she said was, I just don’t remember it that way.

Which started a whole nother conversation right around how she remembers my childhood, from her vantage point. And I think it’s only natural for a parent, for anyone to want to know that their child, was not [00:13:00] hurt by their choices and that they did the best that they could and that was enough.

And I think it’s really hard to make space for the possibility that their best. Also cause harm.

Hmm.

Without making them, one dimensionally a bad person or a bad mother. I think holding multiple truths like that can be so difficult , for anyone, but especially when it comes to the impact that our action has on our loved ones.

Mm-hmm. So I think it was truly, shattering the image of what she thought was our childhood. And rewriting an entire history in her mind, in order to make space for my reality. And I think that took a lot of courage on her part, and also a lot of grace, that she had to extend to herself and me.

Miko Lee: And by the end of that three hours, did you have a sense of resolve or a different [00:14:00] path moving forward?

Michelle MiJung Kim: I think we didn’t come to a hundred percent agreement on what happened, which I didn’t expect. But there was certainly things that were said that we had never verbalized before around what was hard, what was painful, and what we kept from one another.

And I think we needed time away from each other to really process that. So I think we did the best that we could. Actually that night we went to a concert together ’cause we already had tickets and we could not go. And we went,

Miko Lee: what was the concert?

Michelle MiJung Kim: We went to a K-pop concert, Bada, which is

Miko Lee: Oh yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: All like dancing.

Miko Lee: Love her.

Michelle MiJung Kim: So we just let out all of our angst , dancing and that was a good end to our night.

Miko Lee: That’s a great way to actually resolve dance it out.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah, exactly. We just dance it out. And then, at first it was a little awkward, but, we got over it. Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] Afterwards, she listened to the podcast on her own with a transcript because her first language is not English.

She really wanted to make sure that she understood what she listened to. So she had the transcript in front of her and she was looking up words that she didn’t understand. She said that really helped her to understand more of what, I was trying to say. I didn’t expect this, but weeks later she just randomly said, I am really sorry. I did the best that I could and I didn’t know how much you were carrying. That changed everything for me. I didn’t expect that kind of acknowledgement and validation from her when I was putting out this episode when I was writing it. I truly just wanted to do justice to my own truth and make space for my stories in ways that I’d never done before.

But to then receive her acknowledgement, of some of the things that [00:16:00] I talked about was. Truly invaluable and healing in ways that I didn’t expect. That completely changed our relationship. I’m able to be a lot more honest with her and I feel less, guarded about, the most tender parts of me when I’m around her.

Miko Lee: Wow, that’s so powerful that one episode. How impactful. Thank you so much for sharing about that. the topics that rose to the top in your conversations? Every single one of them had such universality, the Oxford study then the talking about Gaza and the impact on your job, being friends with somebody that you disagree with politically, each of these topics, there’s so much resonance. I’m wondering of the three pages you had to choose from, how did these float to the top?

Michelle MiJung Kim: It was a tough one. I had a team that I talked to about which topics to prioritize and we all got votes [00:17:00] on which ones we wanted to talk about. Some I had to really push to get it in to the season.

The one about, my open relationship journey, they were like, why the hell do , we wanna talk about this? For me it was like, it’s not about how to do open relationship 101 or how to do poly 1 0 1. It’s actually about desire. Right. How we get in touch with our desire and practice wanting and being able to practice wanting that is at the core of that episode. I really wanna talk about it because no one else was talking about it.

Miko Lee: I appreciated that episode because it was about autonomy. Like how do you hold on to who you are as an individual? To me, I didn’t look at it as much about poly as much as it about who am I and how do I hold on to my belief in who I am even in the midst of being in a relationship.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Absolutely. Exactly. I think I wanted to prioritize topics that weren’t popular in terms of the public discourse, not ’cause [00:18:00] it’s not something that people are grappling with, but because it’s tricky to navigate. Because it requires a lot of nuance and often I think when we talk about desire or when we talk about personal wellness and self-development, it’s so often done through the lens of, white co-opted, self-help culture. I wanted to do it in a way that felt more in alignment with my values around social justice. I picked the topics that were less explored through that lens, but also that, I felt were present in our public zeitgeist and in the cultural musings. Some of these topics were also timely.

Like the one about my job loss due to Palestine or my struggle with my friendships that were breaking all over the place because of our political disagreement or the conversation around [00:19:00] abolition and conflict, navigating conflict in our own lives that map to our vision of the collective liberation

Miko Lee: and the contradictions that we hold.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Exactly, and the contradictions that we hold and that we have to make room for that often get, muted or disregarded because it’s uncomfortable to talk about or that makes us feel less radical, less critical, less social justice-y And I think these are actually quite urgent topics that we need to talk about in order for us to create more, coalitions, more resilient relationships that is at the foundation of all of our organizing.

Whether that is, you know. Or in our political work or personal, , living in alignment with our values. So I felt these were also timely conversations that needed to be had in a way that felt accessible, personal, and honest, that wasn’t overly packaged up. So that people can [00:20:00] resonate with the raw struggles.

Miko Lee: I also appreciate how you put listeners voices in at the end and just with their perspectives, because as you’re talking about, for instance, the breaking up with friends because of political differences, then we’re hearing other people’s voices about their experiences. So how did you do those call out for those voices and did you identify specific topics you wanted colleagues to speak on?

Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah, so we did a call out for voicemails for every episode, and it was so important for me. I kept pushing our team to do it, even though we were running out of time and resources. They were like, no, we gotta cut this part out. And I was like, no, because the podcast is called, “I Feel that way too” and it’s about, not just me, but how my story then gets reflected by the entire community. I wanted to make sure that the community voices become a part of this episode. I did a call out on my social media, on my newsletter, and it was actually quite hard to get people [00:21:00] to submit voicemails. I think people feel a lot of pressure to get it perfect. I asked my friends and they said they wanted to do it, but they were feeling pressured because they feel, they felt like they didn’t know what to say and they wanted to say it in a way that felt professional. And so

Miko Lee: come up with something profound.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Exactly. They wanted to be profound and everything that we do, I think takes a level of courage. I really appreciated people who submitted their voicemails.

Miko Lee: Yeah.

Michelle MiJung Kim: We had voicemails coming from New Zealand, from Taiwan, from the United States from Canada, and so it was wonderful to know that there was a global sort of connection to these issues and the things that we are grappling with, and also knowing that we’re none of us is really alone.

Miko Lee: Speaking to the alone, we’re living in such a time of isolation right now and where there’s two different parties with really clear agendas and people are this way or [00:22:00] people are that way, and yet your title is, “I feel that way too”. Can you share a little bit about where that title comes from?

Michelle MiJung Kim: I was part of my very first high risk direct action calling for an end to the genocide in Palestine, I was terrified and I decided to partake in it because I didn’t know what else to do to process my anger and my desperation, watching what was happening unfold on my screen. I just felt like I had to do something more than what I was used to doing, whether it’s donating or signing petitions or writing. There was a collective gaslighting during that time where the media outlets were justifying what was happening in Gaza.

People were being, retaliated against for talking about Palestine. There was this overall, polarization between people who felt this [00:23:00] urgent need to do something about Palestine versus people who are living their daily lives as if nothing was happening. I went to participate in this direct action, I was surrounded by people who felt similarly, and after this really intense action took place when everybody was highly activated and charged because we had just seen our comrades be arrested and then released, and we were, just in our adrenaline. We all held hands to chant together collectively. And the chant went like this.

” Don’t worry, I got you. I feel that way too. We’ll get through together, we’ll make our way through.” And when the chant leader said, I feel that way too, something in me broke and I just started weeping. In that moment, I just needed to feel like I wasn’t alone in feeling this kind of [00:24:00] desperation, this type of pain and trauma, and anger towards our systems, and that just holding hands with complete strangers. Chanting, I feel that way too. Made me feel so much more grounded and hopeful and courageous to a point where I felt I was able to take more risks than I was comfortable with.

So that’s where, that’s the origin of the phrase. I feel that way too, for our podcast. I just think back to that moment where I felt so seen, I felt so held and encouraged just by the sentence. I feel that way too. That’s the kind of feeling that I hope to be able to gift to our listeners, whoever’s listening to our podcast and whatever topic may be.

I hope more people feel encouraged by the stories that we share and the way that we are creating space for us to be vulnerable and courageous together.

Miko Lee: I [00:25:00] love that. So you’re asking your audience to listen, feel connected to something else, be able to be part of a bigger movement. Are there other things that you want your audience to ponder or to take action on?

Michelle MiJung Kim: I think the podcast really is about, community and courage. The podcast asks us to be courageous about identifying what we want, about how we want to live our lives, who we want to be, and being courageous enough to face the contradictions and make space for the collective, and connection.

I would love more than anything for people to feel seen. But also feel encouraged to share their stories with people in their lives and to hopefully be able to take action together. I think the action of caring for one another in this vulnerable, honest way, the way that my mom and I got through that very difficult conversation.

That [00:26:00] in and of itself is healing. Multiple generations of trauma. If we all could muster up the courage to practice that level of honesty and courage with one another, so much of our, need to heal can be met and so much more possibility emerges from that action.

After airing some of the episodes, we also hosted a discussion session. Called the Courage Collective, where we got to discuss and unpack what came up for people after they listened to the episode, and that was incredible. Just being able to have a consistent space where people can meet provided that sense of community that we all need right now to be able to move in solidarity with our broader movement , and to sustain this very difficult, exhausting path that we’re all walking in our personal lives, but also in our collective lives. I hope people can listen to the podcast and share with somebody that they wanna talk about the topics and keep the [00:27:00] conversation going in a way that can encourage you to take action that brings you closer to more community, more possibilities for our collective liberation.

Miko Lee: Michelle MiJung Kim, thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. We’re gonna put a link to the entire series in our show notes. where else can they find out more information about you and your work and your book.

Michelle MiJung Kim: Everything you need to know about me on my website, www.michellemijungkim.com. You can sign up for my newsletter and follow me on social media, on Instagram at Michelle Kimkim or on LinkedIn.

Miko Lee: Love it. Thank you so much for joining me. So now take a listen to the first episode of, “I Feel that way too.”

Michelle MiJung Kim: The other day I was talking to my mom about my uncle, her older brother who has stage four lung cancer. My mom was [00:28:00] venting about how upset she was that her brother’s kids weren’t jumping at the opportunity to pay his hospital bills. She said he sacrificed his whole life for them. How could they do this to him?

I mean, they have their own lives too, mom. One of them has a little kid. It’s not exactly cheap to raise kids in Korea. So I don’t know. It feels fair to me that they’re talking about what they can or can’t afford. My mom was not having it. She said they have their whole lives to be there for their kid, but their dad, he doesn’t have that much time left.

They should do everything they can to support him. Wait, were we talking about love or money? My mom knew there was a difference right after a few back and forths. I just asked her the question that I really wanted to ask. Do you think uncle feels like his kids [00:29:00] don’t love him because they’re not giving him money?

It wasn’t just a question about my uncle and his kids. It was a question about me and my mom. About love and sacrifice, after all, isn’t our willingness to sacrifice the ultimate measure of our love.

Hi, and welcome to, I Feel That Way Too, a podcast where we ask some of life’s trickiest questions and together find the courage to unpack them one story at a time. If you’ve ever wondered how life could be different, but didn’t know where to turn, I’m here to tell you, you are not alone. I feel that way too.

Ever since I was young, I felt responsible for taking care of my single mom. You know, growing up seeing her sacrifice so much for [00:30:00] me and my younger sister. When I got older, I just thought, yeah, that’s my job now. That’s just what you do, right? Whether it was taking a soul sucking corporate job, or using my savings to relocate her from Korea.

I took the responsibility for caring for her seriously. I took pride in it. Whatever sacrifice I had to make felt appropriate, given how much I love her and how much she’d given up to raise me. But as an adult, I’ve been struggling with this more and more. If the only way I can express my love is by showing how much I’m willing to sacrifice, then how can I ever prioritize my own desires and needs?

What do I do with all the guilt and shame and resentment that comes from feeling burdened by this responsibility? Have I become so Americanized that the idea of al piety feels suffocating? Am I a bad daughter? I mean, [00:31:00] that’s such a common experience. This can be even more complicated in immigrant families because often we have those values, right?

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Asian values, filial piety, or we see fism as a really big value in immigrant households. So putting other people first, prioritizing the family over the individual, that’s a hedged core Coley. She’s a therapist, writer, and founder of Brown Girl Therapy, the first and largest mental health organization for children of immigrants.

I’ve been following her on Instagram for years now, and I love the fact that she’s making mental health relevant and accessible for Asian Americans like me, like learning

Speaker 3: about words like enmeshment. So enmeshment is this idea that there are very loose or no boundaries within. Relationship. So in the family system, if we’re talking about families, there are no boundaries.

There is research that suggests that immigrant families tend to be more enmeshed because they’re actually trying to protect themselves and their loved ones, creating these insular communities and [00:32:00] families from harm from the dominant society. So it was adaptive initially, but of course, just because it’s adaptive doesn’t necessarily mean it’s healthy.

We can see now that that kind of loose boundaries can lead to people feeling really dependent on one another. So often that’s it’s hierarchical in immigrant families, so it’s a top down of dependency, but then children are being dependent on more, depending on your birth order, your age, your gender, your being dependent on in different ways.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Becoming someone my mom can depend on was kind of my life purpose for a long time. My attention was always on what she needed and how I could provide that as a kid. I rarely asked my mom for anything that wasn’t practical or necessary. She was a single working mom, and I could see how hard she was working just to keep us afloat.

Instead, I tried to help however I could. I’d hand over my New Year’s allowance from my aunties and uncles. Whenever we went out [00:33:00] to eat, I’d always check the prices on the menu to make sure I wasn’t picking something too expensive. I worked hard in school, got good grades, and told myself, this is how I can help.

I’ll get into a good college, land a good job, and make enough money to take care of her. That’s exactly what I did. Right after college, I jumped into corporate America instead of chasing my passion for social justice because. At the time, what mattered most was bringing my mom to the US and supporting her financially.

And honestly, I was proud of myself for that, starting so young, being able to help my mom. It felt good. Looking back though, I realized that I never really let myself just want things, you know, like things just for me. And then in my thirties, something started to shift. I found myself really struggling with our relationship.

I was having trouble differentiating my desires from her needs.

Speaker 3: So in the Western world, we talk about [00:34:00] individuation. When you’re an adolescent, you were growing up and you start to build your unique interests and you start to prioritize your friends and you start to be your own person. A lot of us immigrant children didn’t really get that we were still expected to do X, Y, and Z, so we didn’t really get that chance to individuate around that age, you know, as we’re 12, 13, up until 19, 20, 21.

And so a lot of us are doing that later in life. I work with clients who are 30, 40, 50 years old who are like, wow, this is the first time I’m doing something for myself.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: At every crossroads in my career, my decisions were often tied to one question. How will this affect my ability to support my mom? Can I quit my job? How much money do I need saved up to cover both of us for six months? Even little decisions like whether to make a frivolous purchase came with this gnawing sense of responsibility.

That kind of mental math had become second nature, but prioritizing my own joy and [00:35:00] abundance. Well, that always came with a side of guilt. It felt like my entire life was split in two. One part lived for me and the other for my mom, and as I got older, the tension between the two only grew becoming harder to navigate and more emotionally draining.

Sahe calls this parent child role reversal parentification.

Speaker 3: At the root of it, there are two types of parentification. There’s instrumental parentification, which is more about taking care. In more practical roles of the family. So maybe, you know, cooking for sick relatives or making sure your younger siblings were okay, or if you were a latchkey kid, left at home alone, you know, going to school one time, making your bed, all of these things that you had to do for yourself or for your family because maybe your parents were out working or just weren’t able to do it.

And then we have emotional parentification, which is more about taking on those emotional roles. So being the family mediator, maybe taking on the role [00:36:00] of a parent or a spouse for one of your parents, because either one parent isn’t more present or because emotionally they don’t have the type of relationship where they speak to each other more emotionally or vulnerably.

So a parent might use a child to do that. It’s also about generally managing your parents’ feelings.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: One year after many years of working with my therapist, I mustered up the courage to set some financial boundaries with my mom. Not necessarily because of money, but because I needed to shed the guilt. That gnawing feeling that whatever I was doing was never enough and that there was always more to give.

I thought if I can get my mom to tell me the exact amount that she actually needs, then I can finally know that I’m meeting her expectations and I don’t have to wonder if I’m not doing enough. I could handle the financial responsibility, but I didn’t wanna carry the emotional weight anymore. So one day at a [00:37:00] posh new Indian Fusion restaurant that I thought she’d like, I mustered up the courage to ask her, can you tell me exactly how much you need monthly so I can better budget my own finances?

Up until then, I was paying her rent and giving her allowance in random amounts, paying for whatever needs arose at various times throughout the month. She was visibly perturbed by my question. Without looking at me, she said, just give me whatever you can. I insisted, no, mom, I want you to tell me what you need and want.

She replied, I just want you to do what feels good and right for you. I said, I don’t know what that is, so I need you to tell me. I was getting frustrated. She was getting uncomfortable, so I said. Okay, fine. So if I said $500 per month, that’s okay with [00:38:00] you. She looked visibly worried. See, so you know what you need.

Why won’t you just tell me, make my life easier? She burst into tears. Why are you making me say an amount? You want me to feel shame? I already feel bad now. We were both cry, yelling. People at other tables were exchanging awkward glances. She said, don’t make me say an amount out loud. I want you to support me because you love me and because you want to, not because I’m asking you to.

At this point, my voice was near full volume, tears dripping down my face from knowing I had caused her pain, but somehow my untamed anger kept spilling out. Despite knowing full well that I had done enough damage to my mom’s heart, I desperately needed her to see my pain too. I shouted, [00:39:00] I do love you, and I’m asking for your help.

Why can’t you just help me?

I never got my mom to say an amount. It was as if I had spoken the very thing that needed to remain unsaid. By speaking the unspoken. I had broken the delicate dance we’d been doing for decades where love meant anticipating needs and quietly fulfilling it to save face. Where protecting meant pretending not to see the weight we each carried, because naming it would make it all too real.

Silence had become our shared language of care, but now we were at a loss for words. We packed up our untouched food without speaking and left the restaurant, and I never brought up the topic again. And here I was wanting her to tell me exactly what she needed so that I could feel less [00:40:00] guilt for feeling like I’m not doing enough, even though I was doing a lot.

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: And so we were at this crossroads and we couldn’t see past each other’s pain and our own pain in being able to connect to one another. And since then I’ve been really hesitant to bring up. Any conversations around money or boundaries with her, because first and foremost, I’m terrified of her feeling like she’s not loved.

That somehow if I bring this up, she’s going to feel more like she’s a burden and she’s going to stew in her own shame knowing that I don’t think she has. Capacity and the skillset to be able to hold her emotions right now. And then I feel resentful that I have to think through what she needs before I can just be a child and tell her to meet me where I am for once.

Right? Mm-hmm. And so then the cycle just continues and I am not sure I, I know how to get out of it.

Speaker 3: Boundaries is such a like. Trigger [00:41:00] word for so many of us, right? When you hear the word boundaries, you’re like, no. All of a sudden that door closes and you say, this is not something that’s gonna speak to me.

Because it has this reputation of being like, cut people out. Say no, protect yourself. And those narratives really don’t speak to so many of us who come from collectivist backgrounds where. We want to maintain a lot of these relationships. We just don’t want it to feel as bad as it does. And so disentangling and learning how to disentangle our feelings and our values from our parents is often the work I do with my clients.

And it takes a long time, right? Because you are sitting down, sifting through a basically a pile of values, norms, expectations, feelings, and saying, okay, this one belongs to me. This one belongs to my mom. This one belongs to my dad. And trying to figure out. Where does that leave you, and how do we move forward and build the sense of self with things that actually feel true to you?

And a lot of that work is painful.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Trying to disentangle my definition of love from my mom’s isn’t the only thing that’s been painful to navigate. It’s also the [00:42:00] realization that so much of my upbringing fundamentally shapes the way I live today.

Speaker 3: At its best, parentification can lead to having a lot of pride developing really good work ethic, being really mindful of your role in your family and leaning into that.

But at its worst, it can be a form of emotional neglect. And I think that’s really important because in my work with children of immigrants, a lot of times a lot of us don’t realize that we have different needs when we’re growing up. And sure, maybe you had a roof over your head, maybe you were, you know, sent to school, maybe you always had food on the table.

And these are really. Big significant needs that were met, but were you also cared for emotionally? Were you allowed to express your emotions? Were you modeled and nurtured emotionally? So just being taught that even emotions weren’t something that was safe to have. And so in that way, that’s when parentification can become a sign of emotional neglect.

So as by definition, parentification is taking on adult-like roles or roles that are. Older than you are developmentally at a young [00:43:00] age. And it can lead to people pleasing, it can lead to perfectionism, it can lead to constantly, um, monitoring our parents or other people’s emotions or feelings. Right?

Those are very common long-term consequences of being parentified children because we’ve never really learned how to take up space. People pleasing,

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: perfectionism, hyper vigilance. Yeah. I’ve been dealing with all of them pretty much my entire life. One of my core memories from when I used to live in Korea was being invited to a friend’s house After school, we were supposed to do homework together, and her mom sat with us going over everything and helping us out.

I remember feeling so reassured, like finally someone was helping me in the way that Mamie feel safe and cared for. And because I wanted to be invited back, I was always on my absolute best behavior. I didn’t want her to feel like I was being a burden or a nuisance, so I made sure to take my shoes [00:44:00] off in the neatest way possible.

I made sure to wipe off any crumbs off the table, and I even offered to do the dishes. Y’all, I was barely 10, but I felt like I needed to be, liked to be helped.

The truth is. I am resentful. I resent that I never got to just be a kid. I’m angry that I couldn’t tell my parents that I was sad or hurt or scared. I’m angry that I thought care and attention were earned. By making myself small, likable, and pleasant. I’m angry that I couldn’t allow myself to rest or stumble because I knew there was no safety net to catch me and that I thought it was easier to not want than to be disappointed.

But for the first time in my life, there is something I want [00:45:00] just for myself. I want to heal desperately. I want to shed this weight so I can finally be my most authentic, free, and expansive self without needing to prove anything to anyone. I want to access the safety, abundance, joy, and ease that I didn’t have as a.

Child. Talking to my parents about my childhood wounds feels really hard. Not only because I’m worried about how it’ll make them feel, but because deep down I truly believe that they loved me the best way they knew how so? How do I even begin to tell them that their best wasn’t enough to protect me from harm?

How do I share that? I feel resentful for the child that I never got to have without breaking their hearts in the process. And the hardest part, even now, I catch [00:46:00] myself prioritizing their feelings over my truth. It is like this unshakeable sense of responsibility where their comfort feels more important than my pain.

How do I even untangle that?

Speaker 3: You deserve joy and peace and ease. I mean, ultimately so many of us aren’t able to give ourselves permission to be able to work towards joy and peace and ease. ’cause we don’t believe we’re deserving of it. And that is a product of, you know, these family dynamics, but also guilt and shame and not knowing the difference between those two.

And then feeling like we automatically are. Bad if we aren’t constantly pleasing other people. So many of us also struggle with that, uh, binary mindset. You know, if I feel this way, it’s wrong. If my parents are disappointed, I’m a bad child. And that’s not true. We have to learn. And [00:47:00] you have to decide at what point you’re willing to accept that it might not change.

And then decide what you’re willing to tolerate. And that’s the acceptance in grief work that is so hard and grief, I call it grief for a reason. ’cause grief never goes away. There’s no resolution in grief. It’s learning to build a life around it.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Yeah, that’s so real and so hard, that whole acceptance piece, right?

Knowing that it’s going to take time, but also that there may need to be a time where you start to accept, uh, your parents for who they are and what they have capacity for and what they don’t. What’s been really difficult for me is the acceptance of the reality. And my desire to heal, part of me feels like I can’t heal until I get the acknowledgement, until I get the validation, until I feel seen in my entirety by my mom and by my dad.

And sometimes I feel like that just sets me up for more disappointment and sense of betrayal and resentment because I [00:48:00] am not getting the very sort of human and childlike need from my parents. But knowing that that may never come, and I can’t depend on that for my healing, but that’s been really hard to accept.

Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, that makes me really sad because I’m hearing you like deny yourself something that you deserve because you’re still waiting for your parents to give you permission for it. When you can give yourself permission for it yourself, but for some reason you don’t feel like you have enough agency or you’re not allowed to be the one who decides I can heal.

Even without my parents’ acceptance. And that’s a lot of the inner child like re-parenting work of like, you know, thinking about little Michelle and what she needs and how do you give it to her. How do you find power and strength in being able to be the adult who can say, fine, if you’re not gonna take care of this little girl I am.

I’m gonna take care of her. And it’s really hard, right? And it’s really painful, but. [00:49:00] It hurts me to hear you say that you won’t be able to do this until you get that permission, because the reality is you may never get that acceptance and acknowledgement you’re looking for from them.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: In high school, when I came out as bisexual to my dad, he just ignored it.

He pretended he didn’t hear me change the subject, and that was that we never talked about it again. And honestly, I was fine with that at the time. He didn’t wanna hear more and I didn’t want to share more. We lived under the same roof, but how much did we really know about each other? Anyway, fast forward many years later, I was on my way to a date with a woman I just met.

I was on the phone with my dad and thought maybe this is a chance to let him in on my life, just a little. So I told him where I was going and casually asked, what would you do if I ever brought a girl home? I don’t know what I [00:50:00] was expecting to hear, but I definitely wasn’t prepared for his answer. Don’t come home.

He said

Speaker 3: It’s very challenging and I think I just recently had these conversations with a couple clients of mine where, you know, sometimes we have to ask ourselves. The greatest gift we can give people we love is letting them see us for all parts of ourselves, right? Every part of who we are. That’s the greatest gift we can give someone we love.

And not everyone deserves that gift, especially if they’re not tending to it, nurturing it. And I see you like, as like a younger version of you, like vulnerable and raw and saying, love me, love me, love me. Mm-hmm. It’s not just you, it’s it’s all of us. Right? We, we have these experiences.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: It wasn’t until one Thanksgiving back at my dad’s house that I realized just how much I did crave my dad’s acceptance and love.

Thanksgiving is one day [00:51:00] that we all gather at my dad’s house. We ordered a Thanksgiving family meal from Boston Market that no one really likes chit chat and eat for no more than 40 minutes and migrate over to the living room to watch a movie of someone’s choosing, usually me or my dad. This has been our way of bonding for as long as we started gathering.

The movie that my dad, the same man who stonewalled me when I came out to him in high school, chose for us to watch, was Boy Erased a movie about a gay man’s search for acceptance from himself and his family without making eye contact. He said, have you seen this? I thought you might like it. It’s about a gay person.

As someone who’s never been interested in anything L-G-B-T-Q related, this was his clumsy way of inching closer to me. My dad didn’t throw me a coming out party. He didn’t wear a rainbow pin or proclaim how proud he was to be an ally. [00:52:00] There was no tearful heart to heart about acceptance, apologies, forgiveness, or unconditional love.

And you know what? At that moment I realized. I didn’t need any of that. Sitting side by side on that Costco couch of his, I understood exactly what his silence was trying to say.

Speaker 3: And that’s what happens in high context cultures, right? It’s not about being direct, it’s not about being explicit. It’s more about what the contextual clues are.

I think behaviors is where it all comes down to. So that might have been your dad’s way of saying, I accept you and the way that I know how, and me watching this with you is my way of showing that in the same way that my dad. Never growing up or through my thirties, only recently started to say, I love you.

But growing up I would go home and he would leave me newspaper clippings about mental health or about something I had told him about and those would be on my bed every time I would visit home. And that’s, I knew, was his way of saying, I love you. [00:53:00] Right. We have the cut fruit anecdote that everyone has in an Asian household.

Our mom’s way of loving us is through food and by caring for us and caretaking for us. ’cause that’s the role they knew how to play. I even had an interesting conversation with my mom where I’ve asked her, I think this was a while ago, where I asked her, what else do you wanna do? Like stop trying to do my laundry when I come home.

Get out of the kitchen. We’ll just order food. But then I realized it made her sad and I realized I was actually taking away her agency to love me in the way she knew how. Because that’s not how I need to be loved. I’ve also asked my parents, did your parents ever say, I love you? When was the first time or the last time you, you heard them say that to you?

What was that like for you? Oh, that must have been really sad that your parents didn’t even say, I love you. You know, that impacts kids. And then using that as a frame of like. Are you thinking about how you don’t do it with me? Like sometimes it takes these little kind of games before we can get to a place where we feel like we can get that conversation going.

But even then, where can we find beauty in the relationship with our [00:54:00] parents? I’m sure if we, you know, really wanted to dive deep into it, we would. You would be able to think of like strengths in your relationship with your parents, ways that they do love you or see you even if it’s not what you want.

The way that they love you is still a way that they are showing you that they love you.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: When I think about my younger self, I sometimes find myself imagining my mom and dad when they were young, what were they like growing up? How many crushes did my mom have as a teenager? When did she start sneaking cigarettes? And what made her start? Who was there for my dad when he lost his dad as a child who told them they were loved?

When was the last time someone asked them about their hopes and dreams? What did they long for?

Growing up in Korea with my mom, she often told me her parenting philosophy. [00:55:00] I want us to be like friends. She’d say, she’d tell me stories about how she was always afraid of her mom, how strict my grandma was. How she never got the chance to fully explore her passions and curiosities. One day when I was in elementary school, she just said, you’re not going to school today.

And instead of taking me to school, she drove me and my sister to a farm outside the city. She told us real life experiences are more important than what you learn in textbooks. She didn’t want us to live inside the same box. She’d grown up in. She wanted something different for us. She’d say things like, date as many men as you can before you marry.

Travel as much as you can while you’re young. Learn to drive as soon as you can. More than anything, she wanted us to be free freer than she ever got to [00:56:00] be.

The way my parents love me and the way I love them. It’s not something you’d find in some textbook. It’s messy. It’s complicated. It’s nuanced, and it’s big. It’s so big. It is not the kind of love you see in those Hallmark movies where a white parents hug you and say, I love you at least 15 times a day.

But I feel it. I feel it in the everyday moments, like when my mom insists on doing my laundry with her permanently sore back, or when she likes every single thing I post on Instagram. I feel it every time she sees me and says, you’re so pretty with genuine awe in her eyes.[00:57:00]

Michelle MiJung Kim: If you liked what you heard today, please tell your family. Tell your friends. Tell your people. Subscribe to our show and leave us a review.

Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Wanna hear more from me in Sege? Watch the full interview on the I feel that way. Two YouTube channel. And while you’re at it, subscribe to our newsletter on our website at www dot I feel that way. Two.com.

Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program, apex Express to find out more about our show. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.

APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Have a great [00:58:00] night.

The post APEX Express – 9.18.25 – I Feel That Way Too appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

The post APEX Express – September 11, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

Asians and Asian Americans are numerous within the classical music industry, but their identities are often politicized and racialized in this Eurocentric musical genre. For the third episode of Obbligato on APEX Express, Isabel Li discusses this intersection with Mari Yoshihara, Professor of American Studies at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa and Professor at the Center for Global Education at the University of Tokyo, Japan; author of many books, including Musicians from a Different Shore: Asians and Asian Americans in Classical Music (2007) and Dearest Lenny: Letters from Japan and the Making of the World Maestro (2019). Tonight’s episode features music by Chinese American composer Zhou Tian.

To learn more about Mari and her work, please visit her website: https://www.mariyoshihara.com/index.html 

Musicians from a Different Shore: https://tupress.temple.edu/books/musicians-from-a-different-shore-2

Dearest Lenny: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/dearest-lenny-9780190465780?cc=jp&lang=en& 

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. 

00:00:53 Isabel Li 

Good evening. You’re listening to KPFA 94.1 FM. My name is Isabel Li and I’m delighted to be hosting a new edition of Obbligato on Apex Express, which is a semimonthly segment specifically about AAPI identities in classical music. Tonight’s guest is someone I have been incredibly excited to speak to because her writings have actually very much informed my studies and research. In fact, her books are exactly about the subject matter of Obbligato. I am honored to be speaking to Mario Yoshihara, Professor of American Studies at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa and Professor at the Center for Global Education at the University of Tokyo, Japan; author of many books, including Musicians from a Different Shore: Asians and Asian Americans in Classical Music, published in 2007, and Dearest Lenny: Letters from Japan and the Making of the World Maestro, which was published in 2019. Welcome to Obbligato on Apex Express. Mari, how are you doing? 

00:01:55 Mari Yoshihara 

I’m doing fine. Thank you for having me. 

00:01:58 Isabel Li 

Of course, my first question for you is how do you identify and what communities are you a part of? 

00:02:06 Mari Yoshihara 

Oh well, that’s actually a little bit complicated I am. I am a Japanese woman who have spent a little bit over well, maybe not more than a little more than half of my life in the United States. Born in New York but raised in Tokyo, educated mostly in Japan, but also earned my graduate degrees in the United States and most of my academic career has been in Hawaii, so I’ve been in American academia for almost 30 years now, but I also have a dual appointment with the University of Tokyo in Japan. So I split my time between Japan and Hawaii now. 

00:02:54 Isabel Li 

Can you tell us a little bit about your work and your books? I had a chance to read Musicians from a Different Shore, but how would you summarize your research to someone who might not have read your book? 

00:03:04 Mari Yoshihara 

So I am a scholar of American studies, which is an interdisciplinary field that has anything to do with America broadly defined. And within that, my area of expertise is about, well, I would say I’m a scholar of US cultural history. US Asian relations, mostly US, East Asian relations, especially in the cultural dimension, cultural studies, gender studies, Asian American studies, etc. And so I have written a number of books, both in English and Japanese, but the one that you’re referring to, Musicians from a Different Shore, is a book that I did research for more than 20 years ago and was published in 2007. It’s a study of Asians and Asian Americans and classical music. So it was partly historical in that I examined the ways. which Western music, so-called western classical music, was introduced to East Asia and how also East Asians became have become so successful and prominent in this field that is generally considered a white European elite art form, so it was partly historical, but then the rest of the book was based on my ethnographic field work and interviews among Asians and Asian Americans in classical music looking at how well who these people are in the first place and then also how musicians, Asian and Asian musicians themselves, understand the relationship between their racial and cultural identity on the one hand, and their practice of Western classical music on the other, so that was my study.  

And then I also wrote another book called Dearest Lenny. It’s about—the subtitle is Letters from Japan and the Making of the World Maestro. It’s about Leonard Bernstein’s relationship with two very special individuals in Japan. And through that story, I interweave an account of various things. For one thing, how Leonard Bernstein became a world maestro and also the relationship between politics and arts, gender, sexuality, art and commerce, etcetera, etcetera. So that was my most recent book published in English and then, I’m sure we’ll talk more about this, but I’m currently doing a follow up research on the on Musicians from a Different Shore, taking into account all the changes that have been taking place in the classical music industry in the United States in the past, I would say five years or so especially so that’s my that’s the abbreviated version of my research. 

00:05:55 Isabel Li 

That’s really cool, and I also want to ask you about these changes, if you can talk a little bit about the classical music world. I feel like classical music is one of those genres that seems to be unchanging on the outside. But as a scholar of classical music, what types of changes have you observed that has influenced how AAPI identities play into this world? 

00:06:18 Mari Yoshihara 

Yeah, I think especially in the last, I would say, yeah, 5 to 10 years, especially in the last five years, classical music industry in the United, I mean I say specifically in the United States because I don’t see the similar kind of changes taking place in Japan where I’m currently located. And I also don’t really know the situation in Europe. But the field of classical music in the US is changing. I think most significantly because of movements like the Black Lives Matter movement and also with the onset of COVID and the rise of anti Asian hate, there’s been a lot more heightened awareness about how issues of race and also class shapes classical music. So there’s a lot more vibrant conversations and debates about these topics in the industry and also in terms of AAPI community, are the biggest changes, the biggest change I’m seeing is that Asian and Asian American musicians themselves are being a lot more vocal and active in issues of race and racism in the field and there I’ve encountered many Asian and Asian American musicians who have, for instance, you know organized events or organizations, or taken up various forms of advocacy and activism on these issues. So compared to, say, 20 years ago, 20, 25 years ago, when I was doing the original research, I see a lot more kind of, you know, explicit awareness and awareness and articulation of these issues by Asian and Asian American musicians themselves. 

00:08:12 Isabel Li 

That’s really interesting. Just because classical music is also one of those genres, that doesn’t seem like a genre that most people explicitly associate with politics or activism. What are some examples of these, like activist movements that you’ve observed within the Asian American community in classical music? 

00:08:32 Mari Yoshihara 

So for instance, some Asian and Asian American musicians are are becoming a lot more vocal about the actual like racism or sexism that they have themselves experienced, or that they witness in the industry, like in in schools, conservatories, orchestras, opera companies, etc. Either through the media or you know their own writing, and also like speaking up within the organizations that they work in. So that’s one. There are other kinds of advocacy and activism in that they demand more diverse repertoire, and I think the repertoire is in terms of the industry industry changes. That’s the area that’s changing the most, the the kind of repertoire that many orchestras for instance perform have become a lot more– I mean overall it’s still very white, European centered– but in terms of the actual numbers of pieces that are performed, works by living, composers and composers of color, women composers, etcetera. That is significantly increased in the last 10 years and that is, you know significantly to do with the advocacy and activism on the part of, you know, artists of color. 

So yeah, so things like that and then, you know, many Asian, Asian American artists are doing their own programming, for instance, like event organizing programming. So yeah, those are the areas that I see changes. I see things happening that I didn’t see 25 years ago. 

00:10:20 Isabel Li 

Definitely. I remember reading your book, and your book has been published since 2007, so a lot of changes have happened since then. But in general, when you did your research at first, what how would you summarize the dynamic of Asian identities, Asian American identities in this very Eurocentric field, it’s a juxtaposition of two different cultures and identities that a lot of people also observe in orchestras. There’s a large population of Asian and Asian American musicians, conductors just in general. It’s a very large population, but yet this identity is still not quite represented in media. It’s not quite seen, so talk to us a bit about this juxtaposition and how you observe these dynamics in your research. 

00:11:10 Mari Yoshihara 

Yeah. So. The thing is, Asians and Asian Americans are indeed numerically overrepresented in classical music, in the sense that compared to the general public, the the the proportion of Asians and Asian Americans in the overall US population, the number of Asian and Asian Americans in classical music indexed by things like the student body at major conservatories or membership roster of US orchestras, etcetera, Asians and Asian Americans percentage is higher than the general population, right. So in terms of the numbers, Asians and Asian Americans are, quote unquote overrepresented. But those numbers are not reflected in the actual like voice, power and influence that they have in the industry.  

So that was my finding back 2025 years ago and I think that’s still true today. Also, the thing about Asian, Asian American musicians is that it’s a racialized category. They are seeing and treated as Asian. It’s this racial category. But their identities and experiences as Asians is not at all uniform, right?  

Some of these Asian musicians are Asian Americans, like multi generational Asian Americans whose parents or grandparents or great grandparents etcetera have come to the United States and they themselves are U.S. citizens. So that’s one group.  

Many Asian musicians working in the United States are people who were born and raised in Asia, places like China or South Korea, Japan, etcetera, and came to the United States as international students to study music, often at the college level, college conservatory level, so obviously these people have very different sense of identity and experience as Asians compared to say, you know 3rd, 4th generation Chinese Americans or 1.5 Korean Americans.  

There are other people who live in the United States because they were very talented, very young musicians, and the whole whole family immigrated to the United States specifically for their music education. So Midori, the famous violinist, Midori is a case, example of this, but there are also a number of other, especially among Koreans and Chinese. There are families, the whole family immigrated to the United States when the child was a very promising musician at age 7 or something. So that’s one group. They too have a different sense of identity and experience of Asians than the two former groups that I that I talked about.  

There are other people who also came to the United States because not because of the music education, but because of their parents’ profession, for instance. And they have transnational kind of family ties and you know, they move, they go back and forth between US and Asia, for instance. And then there are also mixed roots families where one parent is Asian and the other is non Asian.  

And then there are also Asians who were born and raised in Europe for other parts of the globe and then came to the United States, for either personal or professional reasons.  

So in other words, they’re all Asians in terms of their racial identity. But what that means is really quite diverse and their experience as Asian and Asian American musicians is also quite diverse. So it’s not as if you know, just because they’re Asian, they share some kind of experience and identities around which they coalesce. So that’s, you know, that was true 20, 25 years ago. And I think that’s still true today. 

More and more Asian musicians are coming to the United States to study, study or work in classical music, but especially because of this, like new influence, this Asian category is becoming even more diverse. However, because of the COVID, you know the rise of Anti Asian hate during the COVID pandemic, I think that heightened the awareness of, you know, these different kinds of Asians, the heightened awareness that they are Asians. First and foremost, you know, in, in that in the sense of being racialized in the United States. So I have talked with a number of musicians, Asians and Asian American musicians, who did not really, hadn’t thought about their Asianness before. It wasn’t at the forefront of their identity before, but during this rise of anti Asian hate it they became they basically became more politicized. You know, they had quite a politicized language and awareness to think about race and racism especially against Asians and Asian Americans. 

00:16:31 Isabel Li 

Yeah, that’s a great point. It is a such a diverse group and there are so many different identities, even within just the Asian American framework AAPI, as a label is very, very diverse. And that applies to classical music as well. But I think there’s also this social perception of Asian and Asian Americans as a group that also relates to the model minority stereotype that’s historically been present and, for example, a lot of people might think of, like a young Asian or Asian American musician as being like a prodigy because they are technically skilled at their instrument, where like these social perceptions that exist both in media and in the culture around us, why do you think that is? 

00:17:15 Mari Yoshihara 

Well, that as you said, there is a model minority myth and there is a stereotype of Asians and Asian Americans as being very studious and diligent, but also quiet, right? I mean, they just quietly follow, like, obedient, obediently follow the instructions and that translates in the field of music as the stereotype that Asian musicians are technically very proficient but artistically non expressive. I mean, that’s a very common stereotype that yeah, you know, practically any Asian, Asian Americans in classical music have been subjected to, you know, quite regularly and frequently. And I think that, yeah, that just comes with the overall kind of racial stereotype of Asians and Asians and Asian Americans in American society at large. And also the fact that, you know, classical music, especially in terms of instrumental performance, it is an area that is, it’s something that is, indeed, technically very demanding, right? You need many, many years of disciplined training and a lot of practice. And there is a myth of merit– well, no, not entirely a myth– but there is this this very, you know, dearly held faith in meritocracy in classical music. The idea that if you have the chops you will be rewarded, you will be recognized and you know, no matter what kind of great artistic idea you might have, if you can’t play the notes, you can’t play the notes. That kind of ethos of meritocracy is particularly strong in classical music because of the technical demands of the genre, and that and that kind of, you know, goes hand in hand with the model minority methods for Asian Americans. 

00:19:20 Isabel Li 

Definitely. That’s really interesting and another part of your book that was quite fascinating to me when I first read it was chapter 3. You talked about the intersection of gender as well as, you know, racial identity in classical music. The chapter is called Playing Gender and you talk about, I think at large don’t necessarily associate classical music with a discipline that provides a stable job. It is an art form and there is kind of an uphill battle for artists in a sense like a starving artist myth there. We’re not even a myth. Like if there’s a starving artist image, whereas the image of a very successful classical musician there’s this duality that you also mentioned in one of your other chapters about class. So what really interested me in for this chapter was that there was this intersection of power in classical music of who would go down the path that might not be traditionally as successful. How do you think gender dynamics play into this and how do you think they might have shifted within the last two decades or so? 

00:20:20 Mari Yoshihara 

Huh. I’m not sure if it has shifted all that much in the last two decades, but as you said, because music I mean, not just classical music, but music. Like, you know, arts in general is a field that is very like economically insecure in terms of career, right?  

But at the same time. Classical music is associated with kind of, you know, bourgeois identity and just kind of overall cultivation and so, many Asian, Asian American parents are very eager to send their kids to, say, piano lessons, violin lessons, cello lessons, etcetera. To, you know, give them a well-rounded education and also because it is considered useful tool, you know, when you’re going to college and stuff like, you know being, you know, being able to show that you’re very talented violinist, for instance, is believed to help your college application. 

So there’s this, you know, both stereotype and reality that like, you know, places like Julliard Pre-College, very competitive, you know, school, like music education program for kids is filled with Asian, Asian American, you know, students and their parents who are waiting, waiting for them to come out of school.  

So there’s that. But how gender plays into this is that while both men and women are do study music at a young age. When it comes to, you know, choosing say, college, like what they would, what they would pursue at the college level, far fewer male students tend to choose music as their college major or go to conservatory and pursue it as a as a career. But I think it’s both their own choice. And also especially for Asian and Asian Americans, like parental pressure to not pursue music professionally because of, you know, financial insecurity.  

So there’s that, and also how that plays into the actual experiences of Asian, Asian Americans musicians who do study music is that I have heard from a number of female Asian musicians that either their peers or especially their teachers are doubtful that they are actually serious about music. There is a stereotype that, you know, say for instance, Japanese or Korean female students at Juilliard School, Manhattan School or whatever, they are there because they, you know, they want to study music and then find a good husband and marry, you know, a lawyer or doctor or engineer or something. [laughs] And and not that that doesn’t happen. But that’s a stereotype of, you know, that’s a racialized and gender stereotype that comes from these, you know, gender and class and racialized dynamics. 

00:23:35 Isabel Li 

And just for clarification, is the classical music world at large still a male dominated field? 

00:23:41 Mari Yoshihara 

Yes. Oh yes. Definitely. I mean, it depends on the segment of you know, I mean classical music is itself quite diverse. So if you look at, for instance, the string section, especially the violin section of the New York Philharmonic for instance, you will find that like, I think the majority of those violin players are Asian women, perhaps. But if you look at say for instance, the Faculty of Conservatories or music directors and major orchestras and said, I mean still very male dominated. 

00:24:23 Isabel Li 

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I like how your book also has so many different layers for each chapter. So Chapter 3 was about the gender intersection with this, with this identity, and Chapter 4, was it Chapter 4, I believe it was about class, Class Notes, and you’ve already mentioned a little bit about how class plays into the perception of music, how class influences gender even. But there’s a statement in there that you said that, “it’s misleading to characterize Asian musicians as just coming from the upper middle class.” And it makes sense that people would think of musicians coming from this economic bracket, because classical music is an in and of itself a very kind of expensive undertaking. You need so many lessons, so many instruments. But tell us why this statement would be misleading. 

00:25:15 Mari Yoshihara 

Because I mean, first of all, most of the overwhelmed, I would say overwhelming majority of the Asian, Asian American musicians that I interviewed come from middle class backgrounds, many of them from so-called like professional executive class backgrounds in, meaning that their parents hold these professional executive positions, right. And that’s why they were able to afford advanced musical studies from a fairly young age. They need, you know, sustained and disciplined and often costly, you know, lessons, you know, competitions, etcetera, auditions, travel, etcetera. So that’s for sure, yeah.  

At the same time, there are also Asian musicians who come from less privileged backgrounds, you know, immigrant families who have, because quite a few. I mean overall Asian American population, many immigrants experience downward social mobility upon immigrating to the United States because of, you know, oftentimes linguistic barriers or you know, or plain old racism. And so you’re not Asian families that immigrate to the United States, like, for instance, if the parents have professional positions back in South Korea, oftentimes they become, you know, for instance, you know, small business owners and they experience downward social mobility. I mean, that’s a very common scenario. Yeah, so now all Asian, Asian American musicians grow up in a privileged environment. 

00:27:06 Isabel Li 

Definitely a great point. Now before we move on to some discussions about Mari’s research. First of all, thank you for tuning in to Obbligato on APEX Express, we’ll be taking a short music break and as mentioned earlier, a great way to increase diversity within classical music is to uplift works by living composers. If you’re listening to my first. 

00:27:26 Isabel Li 

Episode 2 months ago, you’ll know that I featured music by Chinese American composer Zhou Tian. I’m happy to say that coming up next is one of Zhou’s compositions inspired by a trip to Italy. This is a piece called Hidden Grace performed by the Formosa Trio. 

27:45 – COMP MUSIC – Hidden Grace 

00:35:34 Isabel Li 

That was a piece called Hidden Grace, composed by Zhou Tian for a fascinating instrumentation of flute, Viola and heart coming up for our second piece. In this interview, break another movement by Zhou Tian, the third movement of his double concerto for violin and Viola, called Rendezvous. 

35:58 – COMP MUSIC – Double Concerto for Violin and Viola, III. Rendezvous 

00:41:09 Isabel Li 

Noah Bendix-Balgley on violin, Shanshan Yao on viola, and the Hangzhou Philharmonic, playing the third and final movement of Zhou Tian’s Double Concerto for violin and viola. So back to the conversation with Professor Mari Yoshihara. 

00:41:25 Isabel Li 

As you also mentioned before, you’re working on an updated version of Musicians from a Different Shore. Can you talk–I don’t know how much you can talk about your, like upcoming projects, but are you using similar research methods to what you’ve done before using ethnographic field work? You’ve mentioned the new changing dynamics of classical music in the United States with new waves of activism and awareness. What are some new topics of your chapters that you might focus on? So for your 2007 publication, you talked about your gender and class and how these intersect with identity. Are there any new things that you’re drawing upon here? 

00:42:02 Mari Yoshihara 

Yeah. So I’m using basically the same research method. I’m interviewing actually some of the same people that appeared in Musicians from a Different Shore. Some people kept in touch with over the years, I’ve gone back to them and interviewed them to see the trajectories of their careers since the first time I interviewed them. But then I’ve also interviewed a bunch of other, you know, new musicians that I’m speaking with for the first time. So it’s essentially an interview and ethnographic fieldwork-based research. 

I told you earlier about I think one of the biggest changes is, as I said before, the activism and advocacy on the part of Asian, Asian American musicians themselves. So I have one chapter about that. Like, what? How? What kinds of advocacy and activism they’re engaged in.  

Another big change that I’m seeing is that compared to 20 years ago, there are a lot more Asian musicians in the field of opera. 

00:43:01 Isabel Li 

Ohh yeah. 

00:43:02 Mari Yoshihara 

Uh. Both as singers. Yeah, many of them singers, but also in other, you know, like for instance opera, you know, pianist for opera or be opera directors, et cetera. There are many more Asians in this particular field than what I saw 20 years ago. And I talked about this a little bit in my first book, but opera is a very particular kind of field within classical music.  

How race plays into opera is very different from other areas of classical music because it’s a theatrical art form. It’s visually oriented, you know art form. And because singers have to be cast in order to, you know, sing on stage. So the racial politics in opera, you know, unfolds very differently from, say, for pianists or cellists or conductors or or composers.  

So I now have a whole chapter about opera, especially Madame Butterfly, that this very fraught work, you know, opera that many Asian and Asian Americans have love hate relationships. A lot of pigeon-holing that happens in that through that opera. But also, production of new opera by Asian and Asian American artists, composers, directors, singers, etcetera. So I have a whole chapter about that.  

And then I also will have another chapter about, you know, what it means to, you know, sit at the table, basically. Like stand on the podium and sit at the table, stand on the podium. Not only, I mean I will, I will have a whole discussion about Asian and Asian Americans conductors, but not only in that literal sense of, you know, standing at the podium, but like being at the table like in other words, not only, Asian and Asian American musicians playing music that are given to them and they are assigned to them that they’re hired to play, but also having a real voice in the organizational and institutional dimensions of classical music industry. So the kinds of people, Asians, who are in these positions more executive positions with decision making power what their experiences are like. I’m going to have a chapter about that.  

So those are some of my ideas. I’m still in the middle of the project, so I can’t. I can’t see the whole picture, but those are some of my current ideas. 

00:45:48 Isabel Li 

I see. And do you have an idea of when this book will be published or an updated version? 

00:45:54 Mari Yoshihara 

Well [laughs], my goal rather ambitious goal is to have it published in 2027, because that would be 20 years since Musicians from a Different Shore, so that would be ideal if I can make that. 

00:46:08 Isabel Li 

Well, yeah. Nice. That’s really exciting, definitely. I will also kind of bridge, I guess my part of the research into this part of the interview, since I’d love to talk to you a little bit more about how classical music in general is portrayed in media.  

So as I’ve introduced myself before, I had a back, I have a background in media studies as well as music history and theory. And what was really interesting to me in my senior thesis while I was doing research for that was I coined this term and it could just be loosely associated with the genre of film. But it’s the “classical music film.” So think of any narrative fictional film you can think of with a classical musician in there. So it could be like Amadeus, where I think of like Tár. If you watch Tár like a lot of these depictions are quite understandably white and European, but they my senior thesis I’ve never really seen any depictions of Asian American or Asian classical musicians? I was wondering if you have ever watched a film like that, or could maybe talk a bit about maybe the lack of representation in media, how media plays into how people perceive classical music as a genre as a whole. 

00:47:23 Mari Yoshihara 

That is a very interesting question. I think you know, because of the stereotype of Asian and Asian American model minority and model minority stereotype often is associated with, you know, violin or piano-playing Asian American kids, I think. Asian, Asian American characters who are, you know, these kind of musical classical music geniuses appear here and there. But the ones that center on such a character as the main, you know, like the protagonist, come to think of it, I’m not sure if I’ve seen. I mean, I’ve seen several Korean dramas, you know, character, but those are Korean dramas, not Asian American, so more American works with Asian classical musicians… 

00:48:21 Isabel Li 

And I think also classical music as a genre is. It’s interesting because classical music is also kind of underrepresented. It’s not quite in the mainstream. And then one of my final questions for you is I do also want to take a second to acknowledge that your book was actually one of the only books that I could find about this topic. I think there are not that many other books about Asian and Asian Americans in classical music. I think there are a few other books and a few and definitely some papers that talk about this, but what got you interested in this field? And I don’t know if you think there’s a scarcity of information, but do you think there’s relative scarcity of information about this topic? 

00:49:01 Mari Yoshihara 

Yeah. So how I got into it is. So I was a pretty serious student of piano when I was a child. That’s like, yeah, that really kind of preoccupied my childhood and adolescence. But then I, for various reasons I ended up not going to a music Conservatory and became an academic.  

And then once I entered academia and became a scholar of American studies, all I was studying was like race, gender, class. I mean, that’s what  we do in American studies. And my first book, which was originally my doctoral dissertation, was a cultural history of orientalism and white women. So that was a study of the intersections of race and gender and to some extent class in American history.  

So once I finished that book, I was thinking about what projects to work on next. And I happened to turn on the TV, and it just so happens that the Vienna Phil New Year’s concert, conducted by Seiji Ozawa was playing on the TV and that was sort of my “aha” moment because I had always known or, you know, kind of generally aware that Asians and Asian Americans are, if not necessarily overrepresented, but, you know, they’re quite numerous, you know. They’re present. Their numerical presence is quite notable in classical music that is often associated with white, you know, European culture, elite culture. 

So I was kind of curious about that phenomenon, but I hadn’t really thought too much about it until I watched Seiji Ozawa were conducting the Vienna Phil. And that’s when I thought, well, maybe I can kind of combine my classical music background and my academic training in studies of race, gender, class into this project. So that’s when I decided to work on. You know, this topic of Asians and Asian Americans, classical music. 

I think the reason that there hadn’t been at least a book-length study on the topic until my book is that for one thing, classical music is considered to be kind of a very abstract absolute form of music. This ethos that it is kind of transcends– that it is a universal, transcendental kind of genre, that is sort of above things like politics or race or gender. Like it shouldn’t matter that these, you know, individual identity, racialized gender identity shouldn’t matter vis-à-vis the universalism of classical music. I mean that kind of ethos is very strong in this particular genre of music. I think that has a lot to do with it.  

And also the study of classical music until rather recently, like musicological study of classical music, really tended to be focused on the study of composers and their works, right? It was the textual that, like it, was an analysis of Beethoven Symphony or, you know, Bach Fugues, etcetera. Yeah. It was really focused on the study of the score, the study of the composer’s ideas, as reflected in the score, I mean that was the centerpiece of musicological approach to classical music. 

And so sort of more sociological anthropological study of the musical practice is a relatively new approach in in the field of musicology. I’m not a musicologist. So that’s not how I’m trained. But I think the academic approach to classical music was not very, kind of, open to the kinds of topics that I raised in Musicians from a Different Shore. 

00:53:12 Isabel Li 

Definitely. I see. And my very final fun question for you is can you name three of your favorite classical music pieces for any recommendations you have for the audience who might be listening, who might be wondering what they will listen to next? 

00:53:27 Mari Yoshihara 

Well, OK well. Pieces well, because I wrote a book about Leonard Bernstein. I mean, I ended up– I wrote a book about Leonard Bernstein. Not necessarily because I was an avid fan of Bernstein. It just kind of happened this this project. But nonetheless of while I was doing research and writing the book I did listen to a lot of Bernstein. I and I have come to really love Bernstein music and so. And you know, of course, everybody knows West Side Story, but he actually wrote many other pieces that may not be as well known.  

Well among the pieces that I like, I like…which one should I choose? I will choose. Ohh well, I’ll choose a piece that I learned myself as a pianist. 

I learned the piece called “Touches” that he wrote. It was a commission piece for the Van Cliburn International Piano Competition, and it’s kind of yeah, it’s a chorale and variation. So that’s very interesting and very interesting and very Bernstein-esque so well.  

I’ll OK, as an American study scholar. I’ll, I’ll stick with American pieces. I like someone Barber a lot. I like Barber “Excursions,” which I also learned to play. 

00:55:04 Isabel Li 

Yeah. 

00:55:09 Isabel Li 

Tough question. 

00:55:11 Mari Yoshihara 

Umm, Mason Bates piece that I also learned, “White Lies For Lomax.” This one was also, I believe…was it commissioned by the Cliburn? But no, maybe it wasn’t. Yeah, I think it was commissioned. But anyway, I played it at the Van Cliburn International– the amateur competition of the Cliburn competition. 

I did all these. So like Bernstein, Bates, Amy Beach piece I also played. Yeah, I’ll stop there. I I wish you had prepped me for that then [laughs]– 

00:55:42 Isabel Li 

Oh my gosh. Great responses. 

00:55:46 Mari Yoshihara 

Hard to think on the spot. 

00:55:47 Isabel Li 

Yeah, I totally get that. Whenever people ask me for my favorite composer, I never have an answer. No, so I totally get it.  

Well, thank you so much for your time, Mari. And thank you for your wonderful insights. I’ll put the link to your books so that people can learn about your works on APEX Express on kpfa.org. So thank you so much for your time, Mari. 

00:56:07 Mari Yoshihara 

Thank you. 

00:56:09 Isabel Li 

As mentioned, please check our website kpfa.org to find out more about Mari Yoshihara, her scholarship, and links to two of her books. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. 

00:56:31 Isabel Li 

APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, and Cheryl Truong. Tonight’s show was produced by Isabel Li. Thanks to the team at KPFA  for their support. Have a great night. 

[OUTRO MUSIC] 

The post APEX Express – 9.4.25 – Obbligato with Mari Yoshihara appeared first on KPFA.