Asians and Asian Americans are numerous within the classical music industry, but their identities are often politicized and racialized in this Eurocentric musical genre. For the third episode of Obbligato on APEX Express, Isabel Li discusses this intersection with Mari Yoshihara, Professor of American Studies at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa and Professor at the Center for Global Education at the University of Tokyo, Japan; author of many books, including Musicians from a Different Shore: Asians and Asian Americans in Classical Music (2007) and Dearest Lenny: Letters from Japan and the Making of the World Maestro (2019). Tonight’s episode features music by Chinese American composer Zhou Tian.

To learn more about Mari and her work, please visit her website: https://www.mariyoshihara.com/index.html 

Musicians from a Different Shore: https://tupress.temple.edu/books/musicians-from-a-different-shore-2

Dearest Lenny: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/dearest-lenny-9780190465780?cc=jp&lang=en& 

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. 

00:00:53 Isabel Li 

Good evening. You’re listening to KPFA 94.1 FM. My name is Isabel Li and I’m delighted to be hosting a new edition of Obbligato on Apex Express, which is a semimonthly segment specifically about AAPI identities in classical music. Tonight’s guest is someone I have been incredibly excited to speak to because her writings have actually very much informed my studies and research. In fact, her books are exactly about the subject matter of Obbligato. I am honored to be speaking to Mario Yoshihara, Professor of American Studies at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa and Professor at the Center for Global Education at the University of Tokyo, Japan; author of many books, including Musicians from a Different Shore: Asians and Asian Americans in Classical Music, published in 2007, and Dearest Lenny: Letters from Japan and the Making of the World Maestro, which was published in 2019. Welcome to Obbligato on Apex Express. Mari, how are you doing? 

00:01:55 Mari Yoshihara 

I’m doing fine. Thank you for having me. 

00:01:58 Isabel Li 

Of course, my first question for you is how do you identify and what communities are you a part of? 

00:02:06 Mari Yoshihara 

Oh well, that’s actually a little bit complicated I am. I am a Japanese woman who have spent a little bit over well, maybe not more than a little more than half of my life in the United States. Born in New York but raised in Tokyo, educated mostly in Japan, but also earned my graduate degrees in the United States and most of my academic career has been in Hawaii, so I’ve been in American academia for almost 30 years now, but I also have a dual appointment with the University of Tokyo in Japan. So I split my time between Japan and Hawaii now. 

00:02:54 Isabel Li 

Can you tell us a little bit about your work and your books? I had a chance to read Musicians from a Different Shore, but how would you summarize your research to someone who might not have read your book? 

00:03:04 Mari Yoshihara 

So I am a scholar of American studies, which is an interdisciplinary field that has anything to do with America broadly defined. And within that, my area of expertise is about, well, I would say I’m a scholar of US cultural history. US Asian relations, mostly US, East Asian relations, especially in the cultural dimension, cultural studies, gender studies, Asian American studies, etc. And so I have written a number of books, both in English and Japanese, but the one that you’re referring to, Musicians from a Different Shore, is a book that I did research for more than 20 years ago and was published in 2007. It’s a study of Asians and Asian Americans and classical music. So it was partly historical in that I examined the ways. which Western music, so-called western classical music, was introduced to East Asia and how also East Asians became have become so successful and prominent in this field that is generally considered a white European elite art form, so it was partly historical, but then the rest of the book was based on my ethnographic field work and interviews among Asians and Asian Americans in classical music looking at how well who these people are in the first place and then also how musicians, Asian and Asian musicians themselves, understand the relationship between their racial and cultural identity on the one hand, and their practice of Western classical music on the other, so that was my study.  

And then I also wrote another book called Dearest Lenny. It’s about—the subtitle is Letters from Japan and the Making of the World Maestro. It’s about Leonard Bernstein’s relationship with two very special individuals in Japan. And through that story, I interweave an account of various things. For one thing, how Leonard Bernstein became a world maestro and also the relationship between politics and arts, gender, sexuality, art and commerce, etcetera, etcetera. So that was my most recent book published in English and then, I’m sure we’ll talk more about this, but I’m currently doing a follow up research on the on Musicians from a Different Shore, taking into account all the changes that have been taking place in the classical music industry in the United States in the past, I would say five years or so especially so that’s my that’s the abbreviated version of my research. 

00:05:55 Isabel Li 

That’s really cool, and I also want to ask you about these changes, if you can talk a little bit about the classical music world. I feel like classical music is one of those genres that seems to be unchanging on the outside. But as a scholar of classical music, what types of changes have you observed that has influenced how AAPI identities play into this world? 

00:06:18 Mari Yoshihara 

Yeah, I think especially in the last, I would say, yeah, 5 to 10 years, especially in the last five years, classical music industry in the United, I mean I say specifically in the United States because I don’t see the similar kind of changes taking place in Japan where I’m currently located. And I also don’t really know the situation in Europe. But the field of classical music in the US is changing. I think most significantly because of movements like the Black Lives Matter movement and also with the onset of COVID and the rise of anti Asian hate, there’s been a lot more heightened awareness about how issues of race and also class shapes classical music. So there’s a lot more vibrant conversations and debates about these topics in the industry and also in terms of AAPI community, are the biggest changes, the biggest change I’m seeing is that Asian and Asian American musicians themselves are being a lot more vocal and active in issues of race and racism in the field and there I’ve encountered many Asian and Asian American musicians who have, for instance, you know organized events or organizations, or taken up various forms of advocacy and activism on these issues. So compared to, say, 20 years ago, 20, 25 years ago, when I was doing the original research, I see a lot more kind of, you know, explicit awareness and awareness and articulation of these issues by Asian and Asian American musicians themselves. 

00:08:12 Isabel Li 

That’s really interesting. Just because classical music is also one of those genres, that doesn’t seem like a genre that most people explicitly associate with politics or activism. What are some examples of these, like activist movements that you’ve observed within the Asian American community in classical music? 

00:08:32 Mari Yoshihara 

So for instance, some Asian and Asian American musicians are are becoming a lot more vocal about the actual like racism or sexism that they have themselves experienced, or that they witness in the industry, like in in schools, conservatories, orchestras, opera companies, etc. Either through the media or you know their own writing, and also like speaking up within the organizations that they work in. So that’s one. There are other kinds of advocacy and activism in that they demand more diverse repertoire, and I think the repertoire is in terms of the industry industry changes. That’s the area that’s changing the most, the the kind of repertoire that many orchestras for instance perform have become a lot more– I mean overall it’s still very white, European centered– but in terms of the actual numbers of pieces that are performed, works by living, composers and composers of color, women composers, etcetera. That is significantly increased in the last 10 years and that is, you know significantly to do with the advocacy and activism on the part of, you know, artists of color. 

So yeah, so things like that and then, you know, many Asian, Asian American artists are doing their own programming, for instance, like event organizing programming. So yeah, those are the areas that I see changes. I see things happening that I didn’t see 25 years ago. 

00:10:20 Isabel Li 

Definitely. I remember reading your book, and your book has been published since 2007, so a lot of changes have happened since then. But in general, when you did your research at first, what how would you summarize the dynamic of Asian identities, Asian American identities in this very Eurocentric field, it’s a juxtaposition of two different cultures and identities that a lot of people also observe in orchestras. There’s a large population of Asian and Asian American musicians, conductors just in general. It’s a very large population, but yet this identity is still not quite represented in media. It’s not quite seen, so talk to us a bit about this juxtaposition and how you observe these dynamics in your research. 

00:11:10 Mari Yoshihara 

Yeah. So. The thing is, Asians and Asian Americans are indeed numerically overrepresented in classical music, in the sense that compared to the general public, the the the proportion of Asians and Asian Americans in the overall US population, the number of Asian and Asian Americans in classical music indexed by things like the student body at major conservatories or membership roster of US orchestras, etcetera, Asians and Asian Americans percentage is higher than the general population, right. So in terms of the numbers, Asians and Asian Americans are, quote unquote overrepresented. But those numbers are not reflected in the actual like voice, power and influence that they have in the industry.  

So that was my finding back 2025 years ago and I think that’s still true today. Also, the thing about Asian, Asian American musicians is that it’s a racialized category. They are seeing and treated as Asian. It’s this racial category. But their identities and experiences as Asians is not at all uniform, right?  

Some of these Asian musicians are Asian Americans, like multi generational Asian Americans whose parents or grandparents or great grandparents etcetera have come to the United States and they themselves are U.S. citizens. So that’s one group.  

Many Asian musicians working in the United States are people who were born and raised in Asia, places like China or South Korea, Japan, etcetera, and came to the United States as international students to study music, often at the college level, college conservatory level, so obviously these people have very different sense of identity and experience as Asians compared to say, you know 3rd, 4th generation Chinese Americans or 1.5 Korean Americans.  

There are other people who live in the United States because they were very talented, very young musicians, and the whole whole family immigrated to the United States specifically for their music education. So Midori, the famous violinist, Midori is a case, example of this, but there are also a number of other, especially among Koreans and Chinese. There are families, the whole family immigrated to the United States when the child was a very promising musician at age 7 or something. So that’s one group. They too have a different sense of identity and experience of Asians than the two former groups that I that I talked about.  

There are other people who also came to the United States because not because of the music education, but because of their parents’ profession, for instance. And they have transnational kind of family ties and you know, they move, they go back and forth between US and Asia, for instance. And then there are also mixed roots families where one parent is Asian and the other is non Asian.  

And then there are also Asians who were born and raised in Europe for other parts of the globe and then came to the United States, for either personal or professional reasons.  

So in other words, they’re all Asians in terms of their racial identity. But what that means is really quite diverse and their experience as Asian and Asian American musicians is also quite diverse. So it’s not as if you know, just because they’re Asian, they share some kind of experience and identities around which they coalesce. So that’s, you know, that was true 20, 25 years ago. And I think that’s still true today. 

More and more Asian musicians are coming to the United States to study, study or work in classical music, but especially because of this, like new influence, this Asian category is becoming even more diverse. However, because of the COVID, you know the rise of Anti Asian hate during the COVID pandemic, I think that heightened the awareness of, you know, these different kinds of Asians, the heightened awareness that they are Asians. First and foremost, you know, in, in that in the sense of being racialized in the United States. So I have talked with a number of musicians, Asians and Asian American musicians, who did not really, hadn’t thought about their Asianness before. It wasn’t at the forefront of their identity before, but during this rise of anti Asian hate it they became they basically became more politicized. You know, they had quite a politicized language and awareness to think about race and racism especially against Asians and Asian Americans. 

00:16:31 Isabel Li 

Yeah, that’s a great point. It is a such a diverse group and there are so many different identities, even within just the Asian American framework AAPI, as a label is very, very diverse. And that applies to classical music as well. But I think there’s also this social perception of Asian and Asian Americans as a group that also relates to the model minority stereotype that’s historically been present and, for example, a lot of people might think of, like a young Asian or Asian American musician as being like a prodigy because they are technically skilled at their instrument, where like these social perceptions that exist both in media and in the culture around us, why do you think that is? 

00:17:15 Mari Yoshihara 

Well, that as you said, there is a model minority myth and there is a stereotype of Asians and Asian Americans as being very studious and diligent, but also quiet, right? I mean, they just quietly follow, like, obedient, obediently follow the instructions and that translates in the field of music as the stereotype that Asian musicians are technically very proficient but artistically non expressive. I mean, that’s a very common stereotype that yeah, you know, practically any Asian, Asian Americans in classical music have been subjected to, you know, quite regularly and frequently. And I think that, yeah, that just comes with the overall kind of racial stereotype of Asians and Asians and Asian Americans in American society at large. And also the fact that, you know, classical music, especially in terms of instrumental performance, it is an area that is, it’s something that is, indeed, technically very demanding, right? You need many, many years of disciplined training and a lot of practice. And there is a myth of merit– well, no, not entirely a myth– but there is this this very, you know, dearly held faith in meritocracy in classical music. The idea that if you have the chops you will be rewarded, you will be recognized and you know, no matter what kind of great artistic idea you might have, if you can’t play the notes, you can’t play the notes. That kind of ethos of meritocracy is particularly strong in classical music because of the technical demands of the genre, and that and that kind of, you know, goes hand in hand with the model minority methods for Asian Americans. 

00:19:20 Isabel Li 

Definitely. That’s really interesting and another part of your book that was quite fascinating to me when I first read it was chapter 3. You talked about the intersection of gender as well as, you know, racial identity in classical music. The chapter is called Playing Gender and you talk about, I think at large don’t necessarily associate classical music with a discipline that provides a stable job. It is an art form and there is kind of an uphill battle for artists in a sense like a starving artist myth there. We’re not even a myth. Like if there’s a starving artist image, whereas the image of a very successful classical musician there’s this duality that you also mentioned in one of your other chapters about class. So what really interested me in for this chapter was that there was this intersection of power in classical music of who would go down the path that might not be traditionally as successful. How do you think gender dynamics play into this and how do you think they might have shifted within the last two decades or so? 

00:20:20 Mari Yoshihara 

Huh. I’m not sure if it has shifted all that much in the last two decades, but as you said, because music I mean, not just classical music, but music. Like, you know, arts in general is a field that is very like economically insecure in terms of career, right?  

But at the same time. Classical music is associated with kind of, you know, bourgeois identity and just kind of overall cultivation and so, many Asian, Asian American parents are very eager to send their kids to, say, piano lessons, violin lessons, cello lessons, etcetera. To, you know, give them a well-rounded education and also because it is considered useful tool, you know, when you’re going to college and stuff like, you know being, you know, being able to show that you’re very talented violinist, for instance, is believed to help your college application. 

So there’s this, you know, both stereotype and reality that like, you know, places like Julliard Pre-College, very competitive, you know, school, like music education program for kids is filled with Asian, Asian American, you know, students and their parents who are waiting, waiting for them to come out of school.  

So there’s that. But how gender plays into this is that while both men and women are do study music at a young age. When it comes to, you know, choosing say, college, like what they would, what they would pursue at the college level, far fewer male students tend to choose music as their college major or go to conservatory and pursue it as a as a career. But I think it’s both their own choice. And also especially for Asian and Asian Americans, like parental pressure to not pursue music professionally because of, you know, financial insecurity.  

So there’s that, and also how that plays into the actual experiences of Asian, Asian Americans musicians who do study music is that I have heard from a number of female Asian musicians that either their peers or especially their teachers are doubtful that they are actually serious about music. There is a stereotype that, you know, say for instance, Japanese or Korean female students at Juilliard School, Manhattan School or whatever, they are there because they, you know, they want to study music and then find a good husband and marry, you know, a lawyer or doctor or engineer or something. [laughs] And and not that that doesn’t happen. But that’s a stereotype of, you know, that’s a racialized and gender stereotype that comes from these, you know, gender and class and racialized dynamics. 

00:23:35 Isabel Li 

And just for clarification, is the classical music world at large still a male dominated field? 

00:23:41 Mari Yoshihara 

Yes. Oh yes. Definitely. I mean, it depends on the segment of you know, I mean classical music is itself quite diverse. So if you look at, for instance, the string section, especially the violin section of the New York Philharmonic for instance, you will find that like, I think the majority of those violin players are Asian women, perhaps. But if you look at say for instance, the Faculty of Conservatories or music directors and major orchestras and said, I mean still very male dominated. 

00:24:23 Isabel Li 

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I like how your book also has so many different layers for each chapter. So Chapter 3 was about the gender intersection with this, with this identity, and Chapter 4, was it Chapter 4, I believe it was about class, Class Notes, and you’ve already mentioned a little bit about how class plays into the perception of music, how class influences gender even. But there’s a statement in there that you said that, “it’s misleading to characterize Asian musicians as just coming from the upper middle class.” And it makes sense that people would think of musicians coming from this economic bracket, because classical music is an in and of itself a very kind of expensive undertaking. You need so many lessons, so many instruments. But tell us why this statement would be misleading. 

00:25:15 Mari Yoshihara 

Because I mean, first of all, most of the overwhelmed, I would say overwhelming majority of the Asian, Asian American musicians that I interviewed come from middle class backgrounds, many of them from so-called like professional executive class backgrounds in, meaning that their parents hold these professional executive positions, right. And that’s why they were able to afford advanced musical studies from a fairly young age. They need, you know, sustained and disciplined and often costly, you know, lessons, you know, competitions, etcetera, auditions, travel, etcetera. So that’s for sure, yeah.  

At the same time, there are also Asian musicians who come from less privileged backgrounds, you know, immigrant families who have, because quite a few. I mean overall Asian American population, many immigrants experience downward social mobility upon immigrating to the United States because of, you know, oftentimes linguistic barriers or you know, or plain old racism. And so you’re not Asian families that immigrate to the United States, like, for instance, if the parents have professional positions back in South Korea, oftentimes they become, you know, for instance, you know, small business owners and they experience downward social mobility. I mean, that’s a very common scenario. Yeah, so now all Asian, Asian American musicians grow up in a privileged environment. 

00:27:06 Isabel Li 

Definitely a great point. Now before we move on to some discussions about Mari’s research. First of all, thank you for tuning in to Obbligato on APEX Express, we’ll be taking a short music break and as mentioned earlier, a great way to increase diversity within classical music is to uplift works by living composers. If you’re listening to my first. 

00:27:26 Isabel Li 

Episode 2 months ago, you’ll know that I featured music by Chinese American composer Zhou Tian. I’m happy to say that coming up next is one of Zhou’s compositions inspired by a trip to Italy. This is a piece called Hidden Grace performed by the Formosa Trio. 

27:45 – COMP MUSIC – Hidden Grace 

00:35:34 Isabel Li 

That was a piece called Hidden Grace, composed by Zhou Tian for a fascinating instrumentation of flute, Viola and heart coming up for our second piece. In this interview, break another movement by Zhou Tian, the third movement of his double concerto for violin and Viola, called Rendezvous. 

35:58 – COMP MUSIC – Double Concerto for Violin and Viola, III. Rendezvous 

00:41:09 Isabel Li 

Noah Bendix-Balgley on violin, Shanshan Yao on viola, and the Hangzhou Philharmonic, playing the third and final movement of Zhou Tian’s Double Concerto for violin and viola. So back to the conversation with Professor Mari Yoshihara. 

00:41:25 Isabel Li 

As you also mentioned before, you’re working on an updated version of Musicians from a Different Shore. Can you talk–I don’t know how much you can talk about your, like upcoming projects, but are you using similar research methods to what you’ve done before using ethnographic field work? You’ve mentioned the new changing dynamics of classical music in the United States with new waves of activism and awareness. What are some new topics of your chapters that you might focus on? So for your 2007 publication, you talked about your gender and class and how these intersect with identity. Are there any new things that you’re drawing upon here? 

00:42:02 Mari Yoshihara 

Yeah. So I’m using basically the same research method. I’m interviewing actually some of the same people that appeared in Musicians from a Different Shore. Some people kept in touch with over the years, I’ve gone back to them and interviewed them to see the trajectories of their careers since the first time I interviewed them. But then I’ve also interviewed a bunch of other, you know, new musicians that I’m speaking with for the first time. So it’s essentially an interview and ethnographic fieldwork-based research. 

I told you earlier about I think one of the biggest changes is, as I said before, the activism and advocacy on the part of Asian, Asian American musicians themselves. So I have one chapter about that. Like, what? How? What kinds of advocacy and activism they’re engaged in.  

Another big change that I’m seeing is that compared to 20 years ago, there are a lot more Asian musicians in the field of opera. 

00:43:01 Isabel Li 

Ohh yeah. 

00:43:02 Mari Yoshihara 

Uh. Both as singers. Yeah, many of them singers, but also in other, you know, like for instance opera, you know, pianist for opera or be opera directors, et cetera. There are many more Asians in this particular field than what I saw 20 years ago. And I talked about this a little bit in my first book, but opera is a very particular kind of field within classical music.  

How race plays into opera is very different from other areas of classical music because it’s a theatrical art form. It’s visually oriented, you know art form. And because singers have to be cast in order to, you know, sing on stage. So the racial politics in opera, you know, unfolds very differently from, say, for pianists or cellists or conductors or or composers.  

So I now have a whole chapter about opera, especially Madame Butterfly, that this very fraught work, you know, opera that many Asian and Asian Americans have love hate relationships. A lot of pigeon-holing that happens in that through that opera. But also, production of new opera by Asian and Asian American artists, composers, directors, singers, etcetera. So I have a whole chapter about that.  

And then I also will have another chapter about, you know, what it means to, you know, sit at the table, basically. Like stand on the podium and sit at the table, stand on the podium. Not only, I mean I will, I will have a whole discussion about Asian and Asian Americans conductors, but not only in that literal sense of, you know, standing at the podium, but like being at the table like in other words, not only, Asian and Asian American musicians playing music that are given to them and they are assigned to them that they’re hired to play, but also having a real voice in the organizational and institutional dimensions of classical music industry. So the kinds of people, Asians, who are in these positions more executive positions with decision making power what their experiences are like. I’m going to have a chapter about that.  

So those are some of my ideas. I’m still in the middle of the project, so I can’t. I can’t see the whole picture, but those are some of my current ideas. 

00:45:48 Isabel Li 

I see. And do you have an idea of when this book will be published or an updated version? 

00:45:54 Mari Yoshihara 

Well [laughs], my goal rather ambitious goal is to have it published in 2027, because that would be 20 years since Musicians from a Different Shore, so that would be ideal if I can make that. 

00:46:08 Isabel Li 

Well, yeah. Nice. That’s really exciting, definitely. I will also kind of bridge, I guess my part of the research into this part of the interview, since I’d love to talk to you a little bit more about how classical music in general is portrayed in media.  

So as I’ve introduced myself before, I had a back, I have a background in media studies as well as music history and theory. And what was really interesting to me in my senior thesis while I was doing research for that was I coined this term and it could just be loosely associated with the genre of film. But it’s the “classical music film.” So think of any narrative fictional film you can think of with a classical musician in there. So it could be like Amadeus, where I think of like Tár. If you watch Tár like a lot of these depictions are quite understandably white and European, but they my senior thesis I’ve never really seen any depictions of Asian American or Asian classical musicians? I was wondering if you have ever watched a film like that, or could maybe talk a bit about maybe the lack of representation in media, how media plays into how people perceive classical music as a genre as a whole. 

00:47:23 Mari Yoshihara 

That is a very interesting question. I think you know, because of the stereotype of Asian and Asian American model minority and model minority stereotype often is associated with, you know, violin or piano-playing Asian American kids, I think. Asian, Asian American characters who are, you know, these kind of musical classical music geniuses appear here and there. But the ones that center on such a character as the main, you know, like the protagonist, come to think of it, I’m not sure if I’ve seen. I mean, I’ve seen several Korean dramas, you know, character, but those are Korean dramas, not Asian American, so more American works with Asian classical musicians… 

00:48:21 Isabel Li 

And I think also classical music as a genre is. It’s interesting because classical music is also kind of underrepresented. It’s not quite in the mainstream. And then one of my final questions for you is I do also want to take a second to acknowledge that your book was actually one of the only books that I could find about this topic. I think there are not that many other books about Asian and Asian Americans in classical music. I think there are a few other books and a few and definitely some papers that talk about this, but what got you interested in this field? And I don’t know if you think there’s a scarcity of information, but do you think there’s relative scarcity of information about this topic? 

00:49:01 Mari Yoshihara 

Yeah. So how I got into it is. So I was a pretty serious student of piano when I was a child. That’s like, yeah, that really kind of preoccupied my childhood and adolescence. But then I, for various reasons I ended up not going to a music Conservatory and became an academic.  

And then once I entered academia and became a scholar of American studies, all I was studying was like race, gender, class. I mean, that’s what  we do in American studies. And my first book, which was originally my doctoral dissertation, was a cultural history of orientalism and white women. So that was a study of the intersections of race and gender and to some extent class in American history.  

So once I finished that book, I was thinking about what projects to work on next. And I happened to turn on the TV, and it just so happens that the Vienna Phil New Year’s concert, conducted by Seiji Ozawa was playing on the TV and that was sort of my “aha” moment because I had always known or, you know, kind of generally aware that Asians and Asian Americans are, if not necessarily overrepresented, but, you know, they’re quite numerous, you know. They’re present. Their numerical presence is quite notable in classical music that is often associated with white, you know, European culture, elite culture. 

So I was kind of curious about that phenomenon, but I hadn’t really thought too much about it until I watched Seiji Ozawa were conducting the Vienna Phil. And that’s when I thought, well, maybe I can kind of combine my classical music background and my academic training in studies of race, gender, class into this project. So that’s when I decided to work on. You know, this topic of Asians and Asian Americans, classical music. 

I think the reason that there hadn’t been at least a book-length study on the topic until my book is that for one thing, classical music is considered to be kind of a very abstract absolute form of music. This ethos that it is kind of transcends– that it is a universal, transcendental kind of genre, that is sort of above things like politics or race or gender. Like it shouldn’t matter that these, you know, individual identity, racialized gender identity shouldn’t matter vis-à-vis the universalism of classical music. I mean that kind of ethos is very strong in this particular genre of music. I think that has a lot to do with it.  

And also the study of classical music until rather recently, like musicological study of classical music, really tended to be focused on the study of composers and their works, right? It was the textual that, like it, was an analysis of Beethoven Symphony or, you know, Bach Fugues, etcetera. Yeah. It was really focused on the study of the score, the study of the composer’s ideas, as reflected in the score, I mean that was the centerpiece of musicological approach to classical music. 

And so sort of more sociological anthropological study of the musical practice is a relatively new approach in in the field of musicology. I’m not a musicologist. So that’s not how I’m trained. But I think the academic approach to classical music was not very, kind of, open to the kinds of topics that I raised in Musicians from a Different Shore. 

00:53:12 Isabel Li 

Definitely. I see. And my very final fun question for you is can you name three of your favorite classical music pieces for any recommendations you have for the audience who might be listening, who might be wondering what they will listen to next? 

00:53:27 Mari Yoshihara 

Well, OK well. Pieces well, because I wrote a book about Leonard Bernstein. I mean, I ended up– I wrote a book about Leonard Bernstein. Not necessarily because I was an avid fan of Bernstein. It just kind of happened this this project. But nonetheless of while I was doing research and writing the book I did listen to a lot of Bernstein. I and I have come to really love Bernstein music and so. And you know, of course, everybody knows West Side Story, but he actually wrote many other pieces that may not be as well known.  

Well among the pieces that I like, I like…which one should I choose? I will choose. Ohh well, I’ll choose a piece that I learned myself as a pianist. 

I learned the piece called “Touches” that he wrote. It was a commission piece for the Van Cliburn International Piano Competition, and it’s kind of yeah, it’s a chorale and variation. So that’s very interesting and very interesting and very Bernstein-esque so well.  

I’ll OK, as an American study scholar. I’ll, I’ll stick with American pieces. I like someone Barber a lot. I like Barber “Excursions,” which I also learned to play. 

00:55:04 Isabel Li 

Yeah. 

00:55:09 Isabel Li 

Tough question. 

00:55:11 Mari Yoshihara 

Umm, Mason Bates piece that I also learned, “White Lies For Lomax.” This one was also, I believe…was it commissioned by the Cliburn? But no, maybe it wasn’t. Yeah, I think it was commissioned. But anyway, I played it at the Van Cliburn International– the amateur competition of the Cliburn competition. 

I did all these. So like Bernstein, Bates, Amy Beach piece I also played. Yeah, I’ll stop there. I I wish you had prepped me for that then [laughs]– 

00:55:42 Isabel Li 

Oh my gosh. Great responses. 

00:55:46 Mari Yoshihara 

Hard to think on the spot. 

00:55:47 Isabel Li 

Yeah, I totally get that. Whenever people ask me for my favorite composer, I never have an answer. No, so I totally get it.  

Well, thank you so much for your time, Mari. And thank you for your wonderful insights. I’ll put the link to your books so that people can learn about your works on APEX Express on kpfa.org. So thank you so much for your time, Mari. 

00:56:07 Mari Yoshihara 

Thank you. 

00:56:09 Isabel Li 

As mentioned, please check our website kpfa.org to find out more about Mari Yoshihara, her scholarship, and links to two of her books. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. 

00:56:31 Isabel Li 

APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, and Cheryl Truong. Tonight’s show was produced by Isabel Li. Thanks to the team at KPFA  for their support. Have a great night. 

[OUTRO MUSIC] 

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