Is a 21" front tire better than a 19" front tire?

Guest:  Bill

Episode Summary:

What if the right tire could transform your off-road motorcycle experience? Join me, Bret Tkacs, as I explore this question alongside fellow rider Bill, who is debating between a BMW 1250 GSA with a 19-inch wheel and a Triumph Rally Explorer with a 21-inch wheel. Together, we dissect how these choices impact performance on rugged terrains like gravel and rocks. We delve into how tire size affects bike suspension and handling for riders of different physiques.

The journey doesn't stop at tires. We also explore the challenges and joys of choosing the right off-road motorcycle, with a special focus on large adventure bikes like the BMW GS and Triumph Tiger. As we discuss the need for modifications, such as stock suspension adjustments and custom handlebars, you'll gain a better understanding of how to enhance stability and comfort on rugged terrains.

Full Transcript:

This is Bret Tkacs, and welcome back to Around the Wheel. Today I'm chatting with Bill. Bill is just a regular rider, like the rest of you guys, and happened to send me an email that was loaded with lots of conversation but had a very specific question that I thought all of you would be interested in. Bill, do you mind just reading that email to the listeners here?

Not at all, Bret, love your video series. I'm 6'4", 270 pounds. I currently ride a 2019 Scrambler XE. I want something bigger to handle all my motorcycle camping gear and my weight easier. I have a good lead on a 2023 BMW 1250 GSA. My only concern is the 19-inch tire for off-road. I know you put a 21-inch tire setup on your GSA. How bad would a 19-inch tire be for minimal off-road sometimes gnarly (rocks, stones, heavy gravel) if we were doing a BDR / Smoky 500? I run Motaz tires on my Scrambler. I also have a good lead on a 2023 Triumph Rally Explorer which comes with a 21-inch wheel. I understand the issue in low gear with the T-plane and I want to know your thoughts on tire size on the bikes. Cheers, Bill.

Perfect. Thank you, Bill. That really, I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on here. When I'm listening to your email and I'm thinking of everything from your height and weight, you know you're 270, you're 6'4". That makes a difference because at that point we're also talking about making suspension adjustments to, you know, if we really want the bike to be ideal and if you're discussing 19" versus 21", we're definitely talking about, how do you get the most out of that machine. So, before I get into the whole wide versus narrow options modifying a bike, power delivery, suspension, the type of suspension that both those bikes use, I'm going to answer that first initial question. The question was, you know, 19" versus 21", and how much of a difference does that make? And that one's actually a fairly easy answer for me.

For most people, this is a really common question, Bill. By the way, I get asked this a lot by email and at camps and everything else. And when you mention minimal off-road, my initial response to that is a 19 is fine. It's great. If all you're doing is gravel roads, service roads and you're touring, a 19" is a fantastic tire.

But you didn't stop there. You didn't just say minimal off-road, you also mentioned some very difficult and challenging terrain. And that's when we start really going, okay, what are we buying the tires for? Or the wheel size for, is it for the 90% or 95% of the riding or is it for the 5%? And we get that with tire selection where people go, hey, do I really need this knobby? I've got a 95.5 and I only ride off-road 5%. Well, it doesn't matter about how long, it's what kind of off-road. If that off-road is basically 95% paved and 5% because it's got gravel on it, then that's fine. But when we start talking about the difficulty, that's where the change is. So you mentioned you had watched one of the videos I made about the 21". What did you get out of that video? What was your questions left from that? Because I'm gonna, I'm gonna expand on this some more.

Well, I was kind of worried about my height and this kind of goes back into one of the other podcasts, the triangle when I didn't, I didn't want to put risers on my bike and I was trying to find um. So I've been really practicing riding with that, that natural triangle, as I, as I lean over the handlebars, I have 21 inch tires on my scrambler and when I come up to an obstacle I actually go over it pretty well because I think the axle is lined up with the top of the obstacle and so when I hit I have that good ramp up and then also I kind of just skim over the top once I'm up and over it.

Well, and this is where, if we just look at the math of a 21 versus a 19, it's pretty hard to argue that a 19 is that much better Right now. I'm just going to throw it out there right now A 19 is significantly better off-road. But it's not just about the axle height. Because we're raising the axle height, we're changing the rotational speed of the wheel and generally we're going to a narrower tire wheel and generally we're going to a narrower tire like a stock GS is a 120, where we're talking a 90-90 or 90-100 on that 21. So there's more to it than just the diameter of the wheel. But if we look at just the diameter, you're not really talking about much of a difference. You're only gaining about an inch in axle height because it split the difference between a 1921. And even if you're looking at the profiles of the tires and the tread and everything else, you really only come out about 25 millimeters of actual increase. But also you're changing the angle of crossing. So if you think about and I'm going to try to create a visual for anybody else that's listening to this as well as you but if you were to have a, let's just keep it square and just put an eight by eight obstacle that you're going to drive over and you roll your tire up to that obstacle and park it there and you take that point of contact, that top edge of that contact, and you were to draw a line directly down to the point of contact on the ground, the center of the tire. Basically, you know, drop a line straight down from the axle, you know, or plumb line down from the axle and you measure that angle of climb. If you make that a larger diameter wheel, that point of contact moves back away from the axle. That decreases your rate of climb. Does it make sense? It's not a lot, but it's a little bit. Then, on top of that, now you've also raised that axle height, so now your point of impact and center also increases. So there's all these little factors that go into play. It's not just about the axle height, it's about the impact and rotational. I said there's a lot of different elements about this and what happens is they add up. So these little minor changes add up to a pretty significant difference off-road.

The other one that really has to be accounted for is the width of the tire, and this comes into play when we're talking about cutting through mud or cutting through sand or any kind of a even like soft grass, where we're kind of, you know, barreling down into it. And you know we often hear I want a bigger tire because I want to float, I want to get up on top of stuff, and I did a video on that as well in here. I want a bigger tire because I want to float, I want to get up on top of stuff, and I did a video on that as well. And essentially what I found is that any modification to air pressure or tire pressure that we get by airing down or anything like that really didn't have a big effect on that. But even when you go from one tire to another, that's relatively small.

But what happens is it's not that you have float right, because those tires actually have about the same contact area. The difference is the narrow tire is long and narrow in its contact. Where the wider tires are going to be shorter in their contact but wider, you end up with the same surface area. So if you think about a float factor that a lot of people like to talk about, the float factor is really insignificant. If there's any difference at all, it's insignificant.

But what does change is that your tire is constantly going left and right, where you have that rake and trail that tries to recenter the balance of the motorcycle.

And if you have a narrower tire, it's kind of like trail braking, you know, when you that first edge of the tire pushes everything out of the way and the rest of that contact patch gets a free ride when, if you have a wider tire, it has to displace a lot more of that material to the sides, which causes greater resistance, and that's often why the bikes feel less stable.

So if you're going through sand and mud, you might find a wider tire kind of floats left and right a little more, where a 21, because it's also narrower will feel more stable going through. So there is some other effects that will help that stability, but primarily, a lot of it has to do with the width of the tire. So that's something to keep in mind. So if you think about 2021, it's, it's, you know it's, it's those two categories now on. Now, to make this more complicated, why not run a 100 on that 21 right? So that will bring that width of that tire down and in fact, that will make it actually perform better off-road. And, of course, that width that we narrow down to depends on the actual rim width. Right, there's a range of proper size when it comes to tires, and so that's always something we want to keep in mind.

Okay.

So the questions that we didn't get into. So, as we're talking about, the 2021 is also looking at suspension. You mentioned two bikes very specifically. We talked about the GS versus the Tiger 1200 Rally Explorer bike with occasional off-road direction, which is good because both of these are touring bikes. These are not dirt bikes. They're big.

I love riding my GS but it is a big touring bike.

TRAIL BRAKING: Expert Tips for Mastering Throttle and Brake Control

Guest:  Peter Shimm

Episode Summary:

Join us for an engaging and informative discussion with Peter Shimm, an experienced rider, as we explore the intricate world of trail braking techniques for street riders. In this episode, we emphasize the importance of blending throttle and brake controls to smooth transitions and stabilize suspension, showcasing the critical role trail braking plays with enhancing safety and handling in unpredictable street riding scenarios.

Trail braking isn't just for the racetrack—it's a vital safety tool that every rider should have in their toolkit. Whether you’re navigating winding roads of the mountains or the open stretches of the plains, introducing trail braking early on can be a game-changer. Peter and I dive into real-life examples and discuss how this technique can transform your approach to turns, ensuring you're always in control and never caught off guard.

Full Transcript:

0:00:15 - Bret Tkacs

Welcome to Around the Wheel with Bret Tkacs. This time we're talking with Peter Shimm, a 13-year veteran of riding and a relatively new adventure rider at two and a half years in the adventure world. He rides a 1200 GS from 2017. And we have a fantastic topic coming up today. And, Peter, why don't I let you introduce how we got to this topic?

0:00:40 - Peter Shimm

Well, Bret, thanks for doing this. I am a huge fan boy of your videos and I am particularly very, very happy that you branched out with your new venture on YouTube. One of your recent topics was trail braking. I think it was a taped segment that you made in New Zealand or somewhere down under. It was really really good and got a very, very positive response in the comment section.

One of the things you touched on in that talk really resonated with me. You talked a little bit about blending the throttle and the brake. Blending the brake, but blending the controls, which is something that I learned from Lee Parks and his Total Control course, and it's a technique that I just completely buy into. It's just it's made a huge difference in my riding. But yet, besides Lee Parks, you never, ever hear anybody talk or advocate that technique, and when you brought it up in your trail braking talk it really got my interest.

It apparently also got the interest of a lot of people who watched that video because in the comments section it just set off a firestorm of controversy. It was really really interesting some of the discussion that took place below in the comments section. I really would love to go into that specific topic deeper with you because I've just found it to be such a fantastic way to smooth the transition from deceleration to acceleration and the way it just smooths out your suspension and it doesn't upset the suspension, so I'd really love for you to go into that in a deeper way.

0:02:35 - Bret Tkacs

Let's definitely dive into that. I taught the Total Control stuff. Lee and I have known each other since before his book ever came out initially, and I also know Nick Ienatsch, and both those guys take a position on either side of me. Nick Ienatsch is far more into the separation of the braking and the throttle, which is a great way to trail brake. However, it requires a level of smoothness that often riders lack. And Lee Parks takes the other side of that. He likes very significant overlap of that braking and that blending, both that throttle and that braking. And again, also, that is a you know if you've done the course. I'm guessing you've done his level two if you've gotten into that. That it's also a fairly high skillset. But one of the things both of these guys have is a background in racing. They both spend a lot of time on the racetrack and although both of them advocate street riding and they use their trail braking methods to the street, they weren't developed from and for specifically street riders, and that's something I do differently. The way I teach trail braking is for street riders and it was made because I track and follow riders on the street. I've spent 11 years training riders on road and slowly came into this process where I've sort of shed off Lee's method of trail braking. I've shed off what Nick does and before that, if you look down through a super bike school, they're not into trail braking at all and kind of put those away because I've spent time watching riders on the road and the other thing that I've done is I've spent time because I've had so many years of watching this, of going. Now let's compare that skill set to the actual stats where people are dying out on the road. That's where trail braking came in, because here's the sweet spot about trail braking.

I mentioned this in the video and I'm gonna bring it up again to you. The key to trail braking is not about going faster through corners, which people always seem to misunderstand. You mentioned that firestorm where people just get really caught up. Nobody should ever do that. If you're going in and you got a trail brake, you're going too fast. You trail brake, you're going too fast. You should do all your braking before the corner. But the reality is we can't always see everything in the corner before we're in the corner. It's just not possible. Trees, you have cars, you have banked roads where you can't see sand and gravel.

Trail braking is really about extending your braking zone and that's, I think, what people are really lacking. This whole blending idea that you bring up, that you've learned with the Lee Parks stuff and I talk about in the video it has a lot to do with one is to carry that stability into the corner which you learned with Lee, where you carry that stability in that suspension, where you're not making sudden changes and you continue to make those changes as you go into the corner. And that's one of the certainly one of the key aspects of it. But it has so much more. I mean, it can change the way the bike turns into the corner, it can change where you are positioned in the corner so you're not increasing lean in the middle.

And, most importantly, it all boils down to one thing and and I think you know and anybody listening to us if they spend time knows that one of my number one answers is well, that depends. Well. What bike should he get? Well, that depends. Well. How fast should I go? Well, that depends. Well. Should I trail brake? Well, that depends, because there's always so many variables and trail braking is one of those techniques that is specifically for a that depends situation. You're not committing to anything except the exit. After you see the exit, trail braking allows you to delay that commitment to the exit until you're there, and that's why I got into this and talk about it so much in that video, and especially training with people like Lee and Nick and California Superbike School and all these other places that I've spent so much time.

0:06:26 - Peter Shimm

One thing, specifically that I'd like to get your input on is ground clearance. For me, the idea that when you trail brake, into a corner and then you're comfortable with your speed and direction, maybe you see the exit of the turn, maybe you don't, but you're comfortable with your speed and direction. Maybe you see the exit of the turn, maybe you don't, but you're very comfortable, and it's time for you to get on the throttle. And the Ienatsch school (Yamaha Champions Riding School) basically says you have to let go of the brake before you apply the throttle. I suppose, if you're a much better rider than me, or most, you can do that in such a smooth way that it doesn't upset the suspension. But if you think about it, even the very, very best rider, when they're off the brake, there is a millisecond or some fraction of a second between being off the brake and on the throttle.

The throttle, though, to me is the key in a turn, because when you're applying power to the rear wheel, the suspension rises, and to me is really the key to successfully negotiating the apex of a turn. Because you are raising the suspension, you're decreasing the chance of scraping, you're decreasing the chance of leveraging the bike and low siding. To me, that's the beauty of leveraging the bike and low siding. To me, that's the beauty of blending the brake and throttle, because there isn't that transition zone between brake and throttle and it's just a beautiful way to sort of maintain the speed, maintain the height of the suspension and smoothly get through that turn in the safest possible way.

0:08:04 - Bret Tkacs

Most riders, especially if we're talking about road riding. For me, that's what we're talking about. We're adventure riders, we're street riders.

0:08:12 - Peter Shimm

We're motorcyclists.

0:08:13 - Bret Tkacs

Right, that's where we live. We're not on the racetrack. Some of the riders that are listening to this may be on Harleys or Cruisers or very limited ground clearance motorcycles. Most of us are probably going to be on Africa twins or 1200 GSs or something where we have a very significant amount of ground clearance. Yes, absolutely correct, when you add the throttle.

One of the greatest myths out there is when you add the throttle, the front end comes up, but when you add the throttle, the back end squats. And that's not true and it's called anti-squat geometry, so anybody can look that up and go. What's anti-squat geometry? So anybody can look that up and go. What's anti-squat geometry? Essentially, the bikes are engineered so that they don't squat when you add throttle. Otherwise it would be disadvantageous to us to add throttle on a curve, but ground clearance is really for that limit. And on a cruiser, of course you can do that on the street, because you have so little to start with. And, frankly, if you or I are that close to limit on a 1200 GS, we're probably doing things that are already poor choices, you know,

TALKING SUSPENSION: AN IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION OF MAKING YOUR MOTORCYCLE RIGHT FOR YOU

Guest:  Hal Massey, an engineer and ADV rider.

Episode Summary:

Join us as we unravel the complexities of electronic suspension systems in modern adventure motorcycles with our guest, engineer and rider Hal, who brings his fresh experience with a Triumph Tiger 900 into the mix. We will explore how the evolution of suspension technology has led us from traditional manual setups to sophisticated computer-controlled systems that offer a variety of settings, even through intuitive pictorial interfaces. We examine how these advancements have impacted both novice and seasoned riders, and I share my own transition from manual to electronic suspension, including insights into aftermarket versus factory-installed options.

Full Transcript:

0:00:15 - Bret Tkacs

Welcome back to Around the Wheel podcast. My name is Bret Tkacs. Today is one of my passion subjects. We're going to be talking about suspension, and not just suspension. We're going to be talking about electronic suspension and how that interacts, whether it's better or worse, and I'm going to let the details of that be left to Hal, who is our guest today talking about that.

With that said, if you've never listened to one of these podcasts, this podcast is about riders who have questions. That's it. I don't try to bring on a bunch of experts. I'm not trying to bring anybody on that is really over the top. I just want regular riders, and occasionally I get emails that I just find fascinating and I'm very interested in responding. But rather than responding to that email and only having that person get the answer or go through the discussion to find a solution or an understanding, instead we record it right here on Around the Wheel.

With that said, this is a non-funded podcast. The only thing that Christina and I do is we use funding from Patreon, those that support us on Patreon, to host this podcast. We do no advertising. We do nothing else on it, so that you can just take in the content that we're offering here today and, with that said, I want to introduce Hal. Hal sent me an email asking about some suspension questions, and that's what we're going to be talking about. So, Hal, why don't you pose that question to our listeners and let's have a talk!

0:01:44 - Hal Massey

Yeah, so thanks, Bret. I have been watching as much adventure videos that I could possibly get my hands on and I gravitated towards Bret's material because he tends to have a scientific bent to the things he does. He's likely to pull out charts and graphs and justify things. That appeals to me. I have an engineering background. My particular questions started when I bought a new Triumph Tiger 900. And it has - I'm not even sure exactly what to call it, but it has - to me, my mind - it's got computer controlled rear suspension and that was my first run in with anything like that. I am suddenly presented with pictures. I'm setting up my suspension by selecting pictures on a screen. I started riding when I was 12 years old.

I was blessed to grow up in the Southern California dirt bike scene in the decade of the seventies, which was awesome, and of course you know we were introduced to things like preload and compression and spring rates and you know it really threw me and to this day, right up to this current minute, I am still trying to figure out how the settings on my screens, you know, relate to something that's quantifiable and measurable on the suspension on my bike. That's how I got here and I figured you were a great resource, because I'm never going to own five different adventure bikes. I'm retired now. Yeah, I could use some help figuring this out.

0:03:20 - Bret Tkacs

I think this is becoming more and more a topic for riders. Electronic suspension used to be just for high-end brands, expensive brands. I think BMW may have been the first for adventure bikes with their ESA they called it, and it's gone through variations where the electronic suspension would only change preload on the rear - or it would change preload and maybe some rebound, but nothing on the front. Now there's electronic suspension that goes front and back and we have some like you have on the Tiger, and the BMW is very much - at least it used to be this way, where they had a picture of one rider or two riders or two riders with the luggage and they would just go through these pictures and you would just pick the one that looks like what you're doing and you're correct. I mean, we grew up talking about spring rates and sag and preload and rebound and that's all that suspension is supposed to do. But not all electronic suspension is equal either and I think that's very confusing for a lot of riders and I've actually been experimenting with this because I'm a late taker. I have bikes with electronic suspension. I've always preferred manual because I wanted full control over the bike. On my BMW, the 1200 that I ride, I ended up going with electronic when I blew out the factory suspension and I went to an aftermarket I was convinced to try the new stuff because it was really really good and the spring rates would be correct and everything else, and I'll let you know what my thoughts are about that as we get into this podcast.

But I think to start off with, Hal, is to recognize that not all electronic suspension is equal. It depends on the price you pay for the bike and the complexity. Obviously you buy a Ducati Multistrada V4S, which is insanely complex and high-end and potentially, as far as I know, the most customizable electronic suspension I've ever certainly seen, and I'm not sure if anybody actually has a better system as far as individual customization. And then you have the other end where you can get a bike that only changes preload on the rear and they still call it ESA. BMW did that with the 800 series, the later ones. Their ESA was strictly one thing on one shock, and it was, to be honest, what I consider pretty pathetic because it didn't allow anything to ever be correct.

0:05:46 - Hal Massey

Right, yeah, and I wonder about, you know, what are the algorithms? Well, let's, let's back up. So I think there's a huge promise here. I can envision a day when real-time suspension control on an adventure bike is so refined that it's actually awesome and it's helpful for a number of class of riders, ranging from beginners, which I would love to get more people into the sport. It'd be great, all the way to those that are experts. I mean just to joke about it a little bit. When my salesman, who's a great guy, said, hey, this bike has electronic rear suspension, I literally envisioned screens that were not necessarily pretty pictures, but go ahead and set millimeters of preload in - some idea of what the shock might do on a dyno. But instead I'm trying to, I'm trying to reverse engineer what my bike is doing, and there's times when I honestly feel like there's two of us riding this thing.

0:06:48 - Bret Tkacs

Well, I think, Hal, the only way we're going to, we're going to actually get the answer that you're looking for and I, you already know the answer and I, I know this, but we're going to get there together anyways, is to back this up and let's bring every listener up to speed on what we're talking about, because suspension is often what people think of as a black art. There's certain things that are facts. Right, we know spring loads and we can do different things, but also there's how you ride, there's where you ride. Spring, the needs of your suspension change just based on speed.

I rode a WR450 for years as my dirt bike and it was set up perfectly for my riding conditions, which were technical trails, large routes, lots of hills, up and down rocks, nothing high speed, no big jumps. And I took that same bike and I went out and I did a desert race with it. Now, when I say I raced, that just means somebody was tracking my time front to end. It was - don't get too impressed if you're listening. But what I found is that that suspension was absolutely horrible for that setup, because now I'm going very high speeds, I'm making jumps, I'm hitting things at much higher rates of speed with greater impact and load rates and all of a sudden the bike was squirrely and uncontrolled and harsh. But if you take a bike that was set up for that desert and you take them where I rode, they could hardly ride it because the bike would just beat them up. It wasn't made to absorb these large travel that it needed

when you're going over bumps and over rocks at these lower speeds, I need a bike to feel like a couch, that feels stable. That's the idea. It should isolate me from the abuse of what's happening below me, but in a controlled manner. And if it's loose and it's not controlled, that's wrong. If it's transferring energy and beating me up, that's wrong. And that's kind of the best way to think about suspension.

But let's kind of break down some of those terms that you and I are throwing around. You know, preload - and you even in your email you're talking about you have zip ties and rulers and we have compression and we have rebound and you have high speed and low speed compression and you have all these different things. Let's kind of define these first, at what each one does, and then we can go back and go now, how does the electronic suspension handle these and is this a good thing or a bad thing? So let's start off with what you know about suspension and I'll kind of toss it on the side and we'll just work our way through it. So let's start with the springs, because that's kind of the fundamental factor of suspension. So what do you know about springs?

0:09:23 - Hal Massey

Well, most of the bikes I've been on were linear springs as opposed to progressive springs, which made them a little bit easier to deal with in terms of the math.

0:09:33 - Bret Tkacs

Mastering the Adventure: Lana's Journey from Racing Cars to Motorcycle Excellence

Guest:  Lana Tsurikova, autocross racer and GS Trophy Qualifier participant (Lana on Wheels)Episode Summary:From the roar of race car engines to the heart-pumping thrills of off-road motorcycling, Lana's story isn't one you stumble upon every day. Today, she sits down with me and shares the her tale of transitioning from a car racing champion to a motorcycle adventure rider. Lana discusses her systematic approach to conquer the off-road terrain starting on a KTM 390 Adventure. She demystifies the journey of learning to ride and the art of picking yourself and your bike up after a fall. Lana's narrative is not just about personal triumph; it's a beacon for setting achievable milestones and the relentless pursuit that follows.If you've ever wondered how to elevate your riding skills to competition level, this episode is your manual, packed with insights into the dedication needed to excel in the demanding world of adventure motorcycling.Full Transcript:0:00:15 - Bret TkacsWelcome back to Around the Wheel with Bret Tkacs and today my guest, her name is Lana. She's a rider who's actually trained with me, a fantastic, highly driven rider who went from zero experience off-road to participating in a GS Trophy Qualifier in only three years. So she's going to share with us the process it took to get from zero to "go in such a short period of time. Hey Lana, thanks for joining me and sharing your experience about getting into adventure riding, because it's something so many riders really kind of struggle with and I think now it's even - in some ways more difficult because there's so many different ideas. There's social media, there's YouTube and videos and schools. What I like about your story is that you had a very specific goal from where you came from, and your very driven personality and you had a goal to where you wanted to be. Why don't you share a little bit about that story with us?0:01:26 - LanaSure, thank you, Bret, and thank you for having me. So yeah, I came to motorcycles from cars before COVID started. I used to race cars for 20 years and I thought I knew what I was doing. I was so excited finishing 2019 season, I got my second national championship in Autocross and I was so looking looking forward to next year, but it was cancelled.0:01:54 - Bret TkacsBecause of COVID?0:01:55 - LanaBecause of COVID. Yes, we couldn't instruct. You can't sit in a car with another person, you can't be instructor, you can't invite students to see what you're doing. Literally everything was canceled.0:02:08 - Bret TkacsSo what led you to the bikes and what was your goal? How did you end up? Because I know your goal was you wanted to do ,.. like a GS challenge or a GS Trophy, and that was your objective. How did you end up, with that being your objective? What led you to motorcycles? Besides, you couldn't drive around in cars anymore.0:02:26 - LanaRight. So I was sitting at home and probably my husband is right that I'm adrenaline junkie. He just observed me bouncing from the walls - season 2020 - and he actually found this GS Trophy video online on YouTube. He turns the monitor to me and says did you know about this GS Trophy? And I looked at it like, oh, that looks good, I wanted. So that was it. Literally, he just showed me one video. I saw competition on wheels. It involved really good motor, so I wanted to do it. To say I didn't even know how to ride? That would not be fair. I rode maybe four or five times per summer on street, but that was it. I never took my wheels off the pavement. So in 2020, I went and bought 390 Adventure KTM. You know, I didn't know any better. I thought that's perfect bike to start.0:03:29 - Bret TkacsLana, how tall are you?0:03:31 - LanaI'm five seven.0:03:33 - Bret TkacsOkay.0:03:34 - LanaSo even reaching to the ground from that bike was a challenge. I knew right there I'm in trouble what I decided to do. I made a point to take that little bike. and I call it little because everything is relative right? I immediately took it off road and I will never forget my first fire road, how scary it was. You know everything is moving different places and..But it was so fun and I will never forget the sense of freedom that cars - for some reason, cars do not give you that. You escape in the forest. You just take a random path in the forest and suddenly you turn off the engine and it's silent. You can never get that sense of being one with the nature. I don't know, that's just something that I, when I close my eyes, that's where I go in my mind to just endless sense of peace and calmness. But to get there you need to be really good on two wheels, right? So I kept pushing and I started taking lessons, because I knew next trophy GS Trophy be two years. So I need to be ready.0:04:48 - Bret TkacsWell, you know they don't do GS Trophies on 390 Adventures, right?0:04:57 - LanaYes, I thought I would learn and then switch to a more appropriate bike.0:05:03 - Bret TkacsAnd Lana, I think that's something that a lot of riders struggle with is understanding and being realistic about where they need to start versus where they want to end up. I can't tell you the number of riders who have trained with me that have started off by apologizing - when I go, "o what do you ride? Well, I only have, and it's like, wait a minute, hold on. Whatever you ride is what you ride, whether it's because that's what you need to get better or because that's what makes you happy. Be proud of whatever it is that you ride.And I don't think people realize the developmental process and the advantages of starting smaller, something reasonable that you can build confidence on, that you can pick up, that you're not worried about dropping or damaging. You know, even bikes that have cheap body parts so you can really enjoy having a bike. Everybody's focused on their objective and for many people, it's what bike they want, you know, whether it's a Multistrata or a GS or an Africa Twin or whatever it is. You know they're just like that's my goal and they want to go out and buy that dream bike and then they're terrified that they're going to drop it and dent it or anything else. I think it's really important for anybody that's listening to understand that starting off small, starting off with something that allows you to put your toe in the water and figure things out and, most importantly, to not be afraid to use it, to drop it, to take it places and to sell it when you're done, is an important aspect of that process, of that development as an adventure rider.0:06:40 - LanaAbsolutely. And, Bret, you actually touched on a couple of other aspects that I didn't even realize what the stigma is around the notion of dropping a bike. To me, when you're training, you're dropping it, right? It's a nature of life, nature of progressing from where you are today to where you want to be tomorrow. So you're absolutely right, I knew that bike would be down. So whatever protection I could install, I installed before my first ride and that was it. Since that moment it became a training vehicle, not something that you're afraid to see a scratch on the peg, right? Oh, to be proud of what you're riding, that's something that I'm really happyI had experience in cars because I observed exactly the same attitude in my students and cars. What are you driving today? Oh, I'm just in Miata. Oh, my God, you're in a Bullet. You just need to know how to drive it. It is a momentum vehicle, so you have to carry speed through corners and people look at you like you have two heads. But you're sitting with me in a BMW. I can't carry that much momentum. So I will show different lines, different technique, but we'll get to your car and try to squeeze as much as we can from your car. So that idea that any vehicle is amazing training vehicle is something that people probably do not fully appreciate and, as you said, is, the more you switch between bikes, between cars, the more you start feeling them and you do not drive or ride by memory of what your day-to-day vehicle can deliver.0:08:23 - Bret TkacsYou did instruction in cars, correct.0:08:26 - LanaYeah, I'm racing instructor. Yep.0:08:29 - Bret TkacsAnd I think that really sets you off on the correct path as well, and the fact that that meant you already had a mindset where you know the value of tapping into somebody else's experiences, knowledge, and then to realize you don't have to buy into everything that an instructor tells you or school tells you. You go in with an open mind, you leave the things that you believe on the shelf, you take it in and then, when you're all done, you can reflect on it, sort through it and go what works for me, what doesn't work? How do I reapply that? What was the first training you did and what did you take away from that? What was your greatest takeaway and what did you do?0:09:08 - LanaSo my first training, I was really lucky. I did a two day session with Jocelyn Snow and Jocelyn is just an amazing rider and there were multiple factors why I wanted to train with her. First of all, she's a lady. Second, she's shorter than I am. I don't want to misrepresent her numbers, but like if I am 5'7", she's 5'2" or 5'3", much, much smaller than me and no way she can reach to the ground from GS, right? We're talking about 1250 GS.So when I saw her riding and I watched multiple videos of her riding style and the way she teaches, she gives you confidence just by few words that she mentioned. You come back to her and she says, no, you can do it, just do a little tweak in what you're doing and she sends you away again and you do it. So that kind of encouragement and belief in you as a student was something, something I actually didn't see in other instructors. But everybody has their amazing and points that you always take home.So about Jocelyn, her whole training for me and I told her I'm 100% novice,

CHOOSING THE PROPER ADV BOOT

Guest:  Brian Price, owner of Atomic Moto (https://www.atomic-moto.com)Episode Summary:Join me as I chat with the owner of Atomic-Moto.com, Brian Price, to discuss everything you need to know about proper footwear for adventure riding. Brian shares his extensive knowledge about motorcycle boots, from their complex construction to size variations. We cover why a good boot is essential and how it can enhance control, reduce fatigue and even prevent accidents when riding off-road. You'll also hear Bret's personal experience with boots, including his initial purchase of an inexpensive boot, and why he eventually traded it in for a more suitable one.As we continue our chat, Brian tackles the challenge of choosing the right adventure boot, suggesting research into construction, different brands, and stretching your comfort level to get comfortable with the right boot for your riding.  Whether you're a novice rider or a seasoned adventurer, tune in for an in-depth look at why investing in the right boots is an absolute must.

Full Transcript:0:00:15 - Bret TkacsWelcome to Around the Wheel with Bret Tkacs, and today I have a very special guest and I'm going to let you introduce yourself.0:00:23 - Brian PriceMy name is Brian Price and I am the founder and owner of Atomic-Moto.com.0:00:30 - Bret TkacsAnd today we're going to talk about a topic I don't think we can cover too often, and that is proper footwear, and really just dig through what's a good adventure boot when are we overdressed, when are we underdressed? How are these things built? I mean, you're kind of the boot guy, aren't you?0:00:51 - Brian PriceI try to be. I like to think of myself as that. I put more time and effort into studying them and understanding them and making good recommendations to people, so that's my goal.0:01:02 - Bret TkacsFor me, I know, when I'm teaching, one of my greatest concerns… when I'm talking about gear recommendations, people are always asking me well, how should I set up my bike, what tire should I have, what helmet should I wear, what gear should I wear? And the only thing I really get insistent on is footwear. I'm like if you come out to train with me, I want you to have the best protective footwear you can, because when we're learning, we're far more likely to put our feet on the ground, to get caught under the bike and to end up with those feet injuries. And to me, it's one of those places where you really do get what you pay for. You can buy a cheap Snell helmet and you can buy some pretty good entry-level riding suits, but when it comes to boots, at least in my opinion, you seem to get what you pay for.0:01:48 - Brian PriceThat is true for a lot of reasons. One of them is that a motorcycle boot is a relatively complex piece of gear compared to a helmet. A helmet is typically about 50 pieces total and the key pieces of a helmet - the shell and EPS liner are manufactured by machine, and a motorcycle boot is a minimum of 150 pieces and in the case of a some like the [Sidi] Crossfires, a pretty technical boot, that's probably well over 200. And there's a lot more machine… actually there's less machine labor, there's just a lot more human labor in them and more steps. It's a more complex process, there's more going into it, and I think that that's one reason why an inexpensive helmet works fairly well. But that sort of comparison doesn't work quite as well with boots.0:02:40 - Bret TkacsNow I know that as we go through life, often the lessons that we share to others, our greatest experiences, are the mistakes that we've made, and I am 100% guilty of this. When I first got into adventure riding - actually motorcycle, off-road motorcycle riding, I was actually my mid-30s. I started off like many riders: I went out, I bought an inexpensive off-road boot, realized that wasn't a really good decision, and then my wife had gone out and bought me a set of Alpinestars Tech 10s and of course that's their top of the line, top shelf boot. I was naive at the time and thought to myself this boot costs more than my helmet. This is ridiculous. I don't need to do that.I returned the boot and I didn't go all the way back down to the bottom, but I traded that Tech 10 in and ended up getting a Tech 7. And I do like Tech 7s. But I was naive at the time, not understanding why that boot was so expensive, and I think even now anybody listening to this podcast is probably wondering why are they so expensive? I mean, I can buy a suit or a jacket, sometimes for what I can pay for a pair of boots, and then to see boots out there that cost as much or more than my helmet. It's really hard to sometimes wrap your head around this. Why are we spending so much?0:04:03 - Brian PriceThere's many answers to that question. I can only hit upon a few of them. One of them is that the country of manufacture, the area where they're manufactured, is not a very low wage area, especially for some of the raw materials that are machined over there, like the buckles and things like that.0:04:23 - Bret TkacsMost of these boots are made in Italy, now, right? The good, high quality stuff?0:04:26 - Brian PriceYeah, I actually lived over there and I worked for Alpinestars actually when the Tech 10 was being developed and at the time several of the manufacturers were working on moving their factories just the production across the border into either Romania or Croatia because it was… not strictly because it was cheaper, but it was easier to get space. There were less governmental regulations for things like gluing soles on, it was easier to get workers. It was actually a little harder logistically, but at the time they were getting all the materials in Italy, from Italy, and then driving them across the border and dropping them off and picking up a load of boots and bringing them back. It's a fairly good system that actually works fairly well. The level of quality isn't really any different from.. despite what some people say, the level of quality isn’t really any different from manufacturing in Italy. But that's one area, one reason, excuse me. Another is…0:05:24 - Bret TkacsI think you mentioned just the complexity, the number of pieces. I had no idea that a Sidi Crossfire was upwards of potentially 200 different pieces. That's one of my favorite boots. If I'm going to get stupid, the Sidi Crossfire is my go-to boot. That's crazy. That's a lot of pieces.0:05:46 - Brian PriceIt is and that reflects their design philosophy, at least the one that they had when that boot came out. It's evolved a little bit but they're very focused on making the best possible boot that they can and ignoring any influences, financial or technical or otherwise, that would get in the way of them producing the best boot that they can. And other brands, other companies, have a slightly different design and product development philosophy. Gaerne, for one, I can see when they're producing a boot… you know they probably draw it out on paper and then they… typically you draw something out on paper and then the designer hands it off to the product team and then the product team tries to walk some of the stuff back to make it either easier to manufacture or less expensive to manufacture or sometimes better. But Gaerne and Sidi's philosophy is a little bit different. Sidi has moved with some of their later stuff a little closer to that, where there's fewer pieces and, for example, they're new Atojo or the X-Power, and that's just a kind of a reality and probably down into some arcane stuff that people don't really care about. But that's just one of the realities of developing a product.0:06:58 - Bret TkacsWe are talking about really high-end stuff and most of this that we're discussing right now is really motocross boots or professional level riding and enduro type stuff. Obviously, my audience is primarily adventure riders.I know, for me, one of the… we've kind of coined as a tongue-in-cheek kind of thing lately about wearing adventure slippers to class and a lot of riders show up in these boots and even though I send out an information sheet on how to select boots and what my recommendations are versus what the minimum requirement is, a lot of the riders show up with that minimum requirement, which really is that adventure boot, which to me, I consider a nice street touring boot that looks like a dirt boot and that's what a lot of those are.But this is something that I deal with all the time that they think that they're uncomfortable, that they can't manipulate the controls, they feel like they're wearing a snow boot and they just say, well, but I got this other boot and it feels so comfortable and I can walk around it and it looks really protective. I think compared to their street boot, it is and it certainly looks and feels a lot sturdier than the street boot. What's your take on, as we so jokingly call them, adventure slippers?0:08:16 - Brian PriceYeah, I think that you have nailed a very important part of riding gear. I don't know how to describe the category… and you did a really good job. Just before this, I watched your video on 5 Adventure Boots and you are talking to this ‘adventure slippers’ topic, which can be said in different ways. I say ‘wear as much boot as you want to tolerate’, and really what it is - first of all, is that the industry has done a terrible job of explaining to people how gear functions and what they really need, and what they do instead is they take the easy path of least resistance when selling footwear, which is driven by the way we buy our casual footwear.If you're going to buy a set of athletic shoes or hiking boots or anything that's not a technical piece of equipment, you choose that footwear based on how comfortable it feels, and what that does is it forsakes the design of the footwear, the boot, and you know, for example, if it's an off-road motorcycle boot, how much plastic does it have,

OLD GUY ADV RIDING TIPS

Guest: Murrae Haynes, a lifetime motorcyclist who is currently 74 years old.

Episode Summary:Get ready to unlock the secrets of continuing your adventure riding journey as you age, with invaluable insights from our 74-year-old guest, Murrae. We promise to transform how you see and handle the unique challenges of maturing as a rider. Together, we examine the shifts in mindset, the importance of self-assessment and risk management, and why riding slower might be a wise decision. Discover how choosing the right bike, planning your route strategically, and conserving energy can enhance your riding experience. Murrae shares his personal experiences, offering practical advice on navigating your adventure riding in your golden years.

Going beyond the basics, we dive deeper into the significance of energy conservation and continuous training for older riders.  Expect to learn, grow and be inspired, whether you’re an experienced rider or just starting out. So come along, as we explore the thrilling world of adventure riding, no matter your age.

Full Transcript:0:00:15 - Bret TkacsWelcome to Around the Wheel with Bret Tkacs. Today, my guest speaker is Murrae. Murrae is a 74-year-old rider, and so our chat today is old guy ADV riding tips. I'm 51, which by some definitions people would call an old guy, but in the adventure world I am top dead center of the bell curve, but Murrae is on the other side of it. So whether you are already in that same age bracket or approaching the same age bracket as Murrae, all of us are headed that direction. So this is a great talk, no matter what your age or who you are as a rider. So, Murrae, let's go ahead and jump into this and just talk about some of the concerns or some of the changes that are prominent in your thought and your mindset as a rider of your age.0:01:02 - Murrae HaynesSure, well I think the easiest thing is when I hit my early 60s - because I'm a rider coach and I do training a lot, I started just kind of by habit, going into some self-assessment. I think when you and I spoke the other day it started on the racetrack in terms of what are my skill sets, how are my reaction times, what do I need to do to be safe? And then that kind of bubbled over into the street and into ADV riding and everywhere else. So I would say the main concern maybe is self-assessment and risk management. How can I look at my risk offset and how, if any way, do I need to change it or tweak it to accommodate my age, to stay active in the sport?0:02:02 - Bret TkacsWe could spend all day, I think, talking about this one. So, Murrae, what Murrae is referring to is yesterday we had had a get together for all the Patreon supporters and we were discussing what sort of topics or what sort of videos they like to see on the podcast or the videos for 2023. And this one came up as a video and I thought it was a much better idea for podcasts because we can dive into the details, because once we've started talking about that on the meeting, I started scribbling down a bunch of notes and then I had one of the other riders that was on that meeting is also just approaching – he’s 72, I think now, and he came up with some ideas as well. And a couple of things that you brought up that we should bring forward in this conversation is we're talking about rider speed, how that made a difference. Thom brought up the greatest concerns that he seemed to notice amongst his riding buddies of similar age. There was way more concern about falling, especially falling with the motorcycle, and they're very concerned about being able to self-recover, to be able to pick up and recover that motorcycle. Are those kind of peak concerns for you, or do you have a different direction that you're coming from?0:03:12 - Murrae HaynesNo, I think the baseline for my concerns would be that exactly just wanting to avoid falling - an injury and being able to, as you say, recover the motorcycle, pick the motorcycle back up.0:03:28 - Bret TkacsI think that led into a couple of categories. Being an educator myself, like you, I'm always breaking things down into bite-size bits. What are the categories, as we get older, that we should be aware of? One, of course is and I'm going to run through this list I think we should go back and maybe discuss these together, because I'm not your age – 51; I'm definitely older than I used to be, but there are significant differences between 50 and 74, at least certainly from the people I've trained and the people I've ridden with. In fact, I just had a guy that rode in Nepal with me who was also 74. I'm always just impressed, amazed and envious of the stupidity at that level to be able to continue to do what we all do. Because none of us are doing this because we're smart. If we were smart, we'd sell our motorcycles and we'd buy a Volvo.0:04:23 - Murrae HaynesAt 51, just as a reference, at 51, I would say a lot of my riding… I was riding just like my hair was on fire. I was loaded up and ready to go and having a great time and being competitive and getting out there and doing it. At 74, now it's kind of my hair is at a smolder, if you will.0:04:48 - Bret TkacsI think the way to look at this is riding speed, because that's an obvious thing I see every time I ride with somebody in their late 60s or in their 70s, the speeds are much slower, and there's good reason for that. The bike choice - what bikes you ride, because you're balancing between the smaller bike that's easier to handle versus the lack of comfort of a smaller bike and the greater fatigue that sometimes comes from riding a smaller bike. Route choice, energy conservation, which is true for all of us. The tools that you should have with us. I think those are the big ones that I go, okay, these are the categories we really have to pay attention to as we're getting older. Let's just jump into the riding slower. I'm assuming that you are definitely riding slower than you did when you were 50.0:05:37 - Murrae HaynesOff-road? Definitely the case, and I think on-road as well. On the racetrack, as I had mentioned, I went from riding big bikes at high speed to riding smaller, vintage bikes which accommodate my reaction times I think, a little safer. So yeah, overall, I'd say yeah, slower, I'm trying to increase my risk offset.0:06:03 - Bret TkacsWhy are you riding slower, though? If you were to break it down to the specifics, why is your speed affected so much as you get older?0:06:12 - Murrae HaynesI would relate it to skill sets, which are good, but reaction times, which I think tend to tail off and we have to be cognizant of our reaction ability. But I also think, at least on the street, the increase in traffic density has been crazy. Off-road, I think it's obvious choosing the right road and, when you get into something that's challenging, paying more attention to your line and to your speed and just that avoidance of falling over and having the bike land on top of you.0:06:49 - Bret TkacsI broke it down what I was guessing would be the reasons for that change, because obviously this happens and I mentioned earlier in this podcast - it's a good thing - If we can only ride as fast as we can handle the situations that are coming at us. And as we get older, we know our vision changes. We can't get information as fast. It means you have less time to process the information f you're going fast, ;the only way to get more time is to slow down. That also goes with the mental processing. We know that as we get older, sometimes we can't multitask quite as well as we used to. Sometimes we have to think about things just a little bit longer. Of course, that requires time. I think you also mentioned reflex. Our reflexes change as we get older. I think there's a lot of natural aging that occurs that if you're still riding at a fast pace as you get older, you're also riding at a much, much higher risk. The only way to maintain the same risk level is to actually drop your speed. Does that sound about right? Am I missing anything on that one or - you're there, I'm not.0:07:58 - Murrae HaynesWell, I think you're absolutely right. And what's interesting is in your mind, you can still be 30 years old and saying, yeah, it's great to be out here and let's have some fun. But if you're smart, you listen to your body and listen to your reflexes and just simply step back and assess what reality is, if you will, because I think everything you just said is very pertinent, you bet.0:08:23 - Bret TkacsAnd the other one that I didn't mention here was, I think, fear. As a trainer, one of the things I notice is the greatest challenge for riders is the fact that fear gets in the way. Often they drop their bike, not because they're not capable, not because they don’t have the physical skill or strength. It's because they're afraid of dropping it and therefore they do. And I think as we get older, because we know that we don't bounce anymore, there's no cartilage left, that healing takes a lot longer, that if you drop the bike you may not be able to pick up and recover the bike, I think it's very natural for fear to come back into play where you're more concerned about these and therefore that fear can become the same challenge or the same issue as it is when you're a brand new rider.0:09:09 - Murrae HaynesI think for me, less so fear and more so caution came up. I know the recovery time from injuries and stuff from prior experience and at this point at 74, the recovery time is so much longer than it is, say, at 50, that your caution naturally goes up, and I think when that crosses the line into fear, what you're talking about is exactly what happens. People start to make mistakes that they wouldn't normally make.0:09:41 - Bret TkacsNow. So, let's talk about some of the ways to compensate for this. Right? We know what the challenges is and we know that riding slower is okay, right, that that's a good thing. So,

TRAIL BRAKING WITH YAMAHA CHAMPIONS RIDING SCHOOL

Guest: Chip Spalding, business development manager and instructor at the nation's premier motorcycle riding school: Yamaha Champions Riding School.Episode Summary:Get ready to master the art of trail braking as I am joined by the business development manager for Yamaha Champions Riding School, Chip Spalding. Listen in as we debunk the misperception that riders should never touch the brakes in the corner and learn how trail braking is an essential part of riding technique. Chip elaborates on the critical role of trail braking in their curriculum and how 70-80% of their students are street riders.Moving forward, we turn our attention to how skills learned on the track can be transferred to the street. Engage with us as we dissect the variables of apexes, the slowest point of the corner, and the decision point. We further compare the benefits of Yamaha Champ School's two-day program and the one-day program for street riders.As we conclude, we encourage all listeners to invest in formal education to become safer, more confident riders.

0:00:15 - Bret TkacsWelcome back to Around the Wheel with Bret Tkacs, and we have a special guest today: Chip, from a school down in California. I'll let him introduce himself, but this is a topic that's extremely near and dear to myself. I've talked about it before, I'll talk about it again because I think it's that important, and that’s talking about trail braking, and I'm not going to talk in dirt, I'm talking about the street, I’m not racing, because that's where we spend so much time as adventure riders, as street riders, and I just think it's an extremely misunderstood and… it's just one of those skills that we need to know, should know, and is just so noticeably absent in rider education. Hey, Chip, why don't you introduce yourself?

0:00:56 - Chip SpaldingHi Bret, my name is Chip Spalding and I am the business development manager for Yamaha Champions Riding School, and I'm also one of the partners. We're based on the West Coast in Indy Motorsports Ranch in Arizona and on the East Coast at NC Bike in North Carolina, but we operate at schools all over the country and online with our online curriculum Champ U.

0:01:19 - Bret TkacsThat's fantastic. I'm going to start off with the… so, people may have heard of Nick Ienatsch; he did a bunch of riding and he's one of the primary members of that school, or founding member. He wrote a book way back in 2003 called Sport Riding Techniques. I still think it's a really solid reference for riders who are on the street or track riders. There's a quote in this book where he talks about trail braking. It's called ‘Setting the Speed Precisely’, and I'm just going to read this because I really want to give people an idea for all you that are listening and I did what we're going with this and it goes:

“Trail braking’s bottom line is safety.” Hey guys, this is really the truth and this is why I think it should be an all rider training. “The ability to trail brake allows you to set your cornering speed closer to the apex, which is the slowest point of the corner. Those who use their brakes in a straight line and then let go of them to steer their bike are deciding very early in the corner what speed they need. If you always ride the same road, this technique works okay as long as there are no mid-corner surprises”. And this is just part of what he's talking about in this book, and that's one of the things I stress so highly when I talk about trail braking to street riders is that - look, the idea that somehow you're going to dive into a corner and then brake hard to make up for errors is completely a misnomer.

To me, what I think, trail braking is the key to never overrunning a corner, ever, ever, ever again. And as riders we've all done that. And I know when you're down at your school, you guys do a lot of track - the skills and obviously you help racers, club racers and others get much, much better. But your school has a really high emphasis now on bringing street riders in and you have a couple different programs. How does trail braking incorporate into those programs at your school?

0:03:12 - Chip SpaldingExcuse me, I would say that at this point, 70 to 80% of our customers, our students, have no intention of being racers, being track days folks, riding on a track when they come into the school. Now a whole lot of people leave the school and go oh man, I got to do this some more. They have such a good time. But the intention coming in is not to go racing, it's just to be a safer, more confident rider. Trail braking is just a massive part of our curriculum. It's foundational.

0:03:46 - Bret TkacsFrom my experience - and I've done a lot of different track schools. I've been in the industry for 27 years and one of my things is I take classes every year, usually more than one. There's no school in the country that I know of that has such a strong emphasis on trail braking. I mean you guys, in my mind, you are the trail braking school, so obviously you firmly believe in this technique.

0:04:10 - Chip SpaldingYes, I wouldn't want to say that we're the trail braking school, because we do talk a lot about all the other stuff a motorcycle does, but it is a fundamental part of our curriculum for sure, because the brake lever is the most important control on the motorcycle. You use it to control speed, control direction and set chassis geometry. You can't do any of the other cool stuff a motorcycle does without doing that first.

0:04:37 - Bret TkacsSo as riders… and I hear this all the time with instructors who are talking to me… obviously MSF is the larger curricula that we know, but whether it's Team Oregon or the curriculum used in Washington or any others, I so often hear street instructors who are training new riders and they always say “well, don't ever touch the brake in the corner”. And actually, the other thing that's interesting about this, by the way, Chip, is I did a bunch of research on this when I was looking into the whole four-finger myth and even those they do specify that when you talk to them in person, it was intended for first line riders in a parking lot learning the basic skills, but they just don't seem to understand what trail braking is. And if you have the chance to fill a room full of these instructors who teach riders that they shouldn't be using the brakes in a corner, that they should release and set their speed all before, what would you tell those instructors? I mean, how do you convince them? If you can convince them, you convince the riding public.

0:05:41 - Chip SpaldingWe all trail brake naturally. You trail brake in your car every time you turn in your driveway. You don't get all your braking done in the straight line and then jump off the brakes and pitch it into the driveway. It's not how anybody drives. You stay on the brakes until you're happy with speed and direction. You do the same thing with a motorcycle.

The theory behind not teaching new riders how to trail brake is that they're not competent enough to use the brakes and steer at the same time, and we just simply don't believe that a new rider should be taught anything differently than a veteran rider. How do you know as a new rider, that you need to start using the correct technique? Well, when you fall down, we'd rather them just not fall down. So let's use the correct technique from the start.

0:06:29 - Bret TkacsI would actually argue… I'm going to be upfront. I mean, I'm not an unbiased host here. I'm a trail braking fan. I actually incorporated it into the new rider training that Washington has been using for several years now. Our incident rates have gone down with that curriculum. There's some other elements that were incorporated into the development of that to help with greater success and everything else.

But certainly from my perspective and, by the way, the argument that I think some of the instructors are going to have is again so well, yeah, you're talking about cars, but cars don't follow over; bikes do, and we can certainly dive into why those dynamics still not only apply to motorcycles but actually apply in many ways. I think even more so why this is so important. But trail braking is... I almost think that when you tell people you cannot brake in a corner, that we potentially could be causing more accidents than we're helping. Because when a student - and I'm the same way, when I take a class, I want to be a good student. I'm going to leave the things I know behind. I'm going to listen to and try whatever that school is teaching me, whatever that instructor is teaching me in it, and then I'm going to filter out those things that work for me or those things that work into other processes or techniques that I've been taught over the years.

But the idea that you go into the corner and you want to be a good student and then when you get in and you've misread the corner and you've made an error, you realize this corner is tighter than you expected, or it's a normally greater than 90 degrees and you were expecting 90 degrees, and you're going faster than you're comfortable in that corner, because most of the time it's not really attraction limit, it's our brain shuts down before we actually run out of traction; were the ones that cause ourselves crash. But being a good student, you just hear that thought in your head. The instructor told me don't use my brakes in the corner, and so you wait and you wait, and you wait until you get to a point of panic and then you dynamite the brakes. Because they're teaching press and pray, right? When you go into a corner too fast, then you just need to push harder and pray that you make it. And well, let's face it, my brain is shut down. I'm already terrified in the corner, so I'm not going to do that.

WHY TEACH FOUR FINGERED BRAKING?

Guest: David Weed, currently an MSF-certified RiderCoach and RiderCoach trainer and formerly the lead technical specialist for the Washington State Motorcycle Program.

Episode Summary:Join us for a fascinating chat with David Weed, a certified RiderCoach and instructor trainer with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF). We tackle the contentious issue of four-finger braking in motorcycling. Listen as David demystifies the myth of four-finger braking, highlighting its practicality, effectiveness, and role in the MSF curriculum. From his insights, you'll understand that while the MSF doesn't prescribe a specific number of fingers for braking, it is essential for riders to have the freedom to experiment and find the method that works best for them.

David also brings to light the importance of effective communication in motorcycle training. We engage in an enlightening discussion about the necessity for instructors to be clear in their teachings. David underlines the significance of questioning our own beliefs and keeping abreast with the latest guidance as instructors, which makes for an intriguing listen.

Finally, we venture into the realm of motorcycle safety and strategic thinking. Bret and David emphasizes the need for riders to make decisions based on their own experience and understanding of the motorcycle's response, rather than strictly adhering to instructions. In addition, we discuss the mental aspects of riding, providing insights that can help improve your riding experience. So tune in and be part of this enlightening conversation. And remember, our podcast doesn't have any advertisements or sponsors - we're all about sharing knowledge and engaging in discussion.

Related Video: Does MSF Teach Four Finger Braking?

0:00:15 - Bret TkacsWelcome to Around the Wheel with Bret Tkacs and today my guest is David Weed, a fantastic rider and trainer. We're going to be discussing four fingered braking: When you should use it, if you should use it… if this is something that is just a myth in riding or if this is the standard. We're going to talk about strategies, how to improve as a rider or a trainer and just dive into some of the history and background of this particular topic. So, let's get started. Well, David, why don't you let our listeners know a little bit about yourself. Who are you?0:00:51 - David WeedMy name is David Weed. I am currently a RiderCoach and RiderCoach Trainer certified with MSF. I've been riding since about 2010, and I ride a fair amount of miles. I still feel kind of like I'm a beginner, to be honest, but I probably ride 15,000 to 20,000 miles a year; teach a lot of classes and then I was the Lead Technical Specialist for the state's motorcycle safety program in Washington for the Department of Licensing and led that program for about five or six years and currently, as I said, I am a RiderCoach Trainer with MSF.0:01:37 - Bret TkacsAnd for those of you who are listening, just to let you know that David isn’t just a RiderCoach Trainer. We've had a relationship - professional relationship, in the past and worked together in Washington State and in other avenues. Keep in mind, David is just talking from his point of view, from his perspective. He is not representing the MSF, or the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, and to best that, I've also spent a lot of time talking to those in other organizations, including Dr. Ray Ochs, who wrote the curricula that David teaches other instructors to teach, and the curricula that he teaches. So I'm actually kind of a step ahead.But, with that said, it's always fun to throw somebody under the bus as we get started. So here we go, David. I read all the time - comments and I hear instructors say, and I see things written. In fact, I have been on websites: Arizona has one of the schools there that put this on their website and they quote MSF and they say “we teach four fingered braking because that's what MSF teaches”. What's the lowdown on this four fingered braking thing? Because I hear it all the time.0:02:50 - David WeedYou know, Bret, I've heard it a lot too. I heard it when I first learned to ride through the MSF program. I learned it in conversations with other instructors and it comes up pretty consistently in my work and training and supporting new and current instructors.One of the challenges that I give Instructor Candidates when they're first learning to be instructors is to go through the MSF curriculum and find where it's written that four fingers must be used on the brake.And the interesting thing is, as you may well have imagined, and I'm sure already know… that nowhere in the curriculum is it written that four fingers must be used on the brake, and so it presents a good learning moment to help instructors think about - what is it that we're really teaching our students and what is it that we really want them to come out of our training with? And in my opinion, and this is my opinion of course, it's the ability for new riders or experienced riders to make choices… and to make choices based on the feedback of the motorcycle. So one of the things that I think happens a lot in motorcycle training is because it's usually folks that are very passionate and love what they're doing and want to make a positive difference and keep students safe, and all that… is that sometimes it's easy to get on to do it “The Way” versus teaching “A Way”.0:04:28 - Bret TkacsWell, let me dig back for a second. I'm going to cause a pause there and, for those listening, I've been a… was a certified MSF instructor in most all the curricula that they offered. I was never a trainer for MSF and I started that back in the mid late 90s. So I was certified for a little over 20… 20 some years. I think it was 25 years when I actually let it lapse. But you made a mention of… well, there's no place in the curriculum where it says you must use four fingers. Have you found any place that references the number of fingers to use at all? You're a Chief, so I would suspect you would be very well versed in the current curricula, which is the BRC or the Basic RiderCourse. Obviously there were multiple curriculums before that, but it… does it say anything about fingers… that you know of?0:05:21 - David WeedTo my knowledge, no, actually it doesn't say anything about the number of fingers. And when you give an arbitrary requirement like that, it doesn't take into account people's experience level. It doesn't take into account people's physical stature. You know, when students are riding a training bike, usually a little bit more basic on the food chain level of motorcycle, oftentimes it does not have adjustable controls. Oftentimes the controls may or may not have seen a little bit of love over the years and there are people who can't physically put four fingers on that front brake. So then if you have an instructor hollering at you constantly to put all four fingers on the brake, that actually might degrade someone's braking performance. So my take on it is, encourage students to explore different options. Try four fingers, try three fingers, try two fingers. Who cares? You know what, if you get the job done, guess what - you're doing it right.0:06:26 - Bret TkacsI spoke to Dr. Ray Ochs, who is the person in charge of the curricula that you teach - the BRC - and that's about when he came in. So I was actually trained on the previous curriculum. It was called the MRC:RSS, so the Motorcycle RiderCourse: Riding and Street Skills, and when I asked Ray Ochs the question, his answer was far shorter and more direct than even yours is. And when I said, hey, Ray Ochs, what is the status of four fingered braking with MSF? What's the official on this? He goes, we don't have one. It doesn't exist… we don't… you know, you can use four, you can use two… that, we don't… that's not our place to, you know, to make a call and in fact I've done quite a bit of digging. I was even looking at curricula up in Canada and some out of, and also down in New Zealand and some other places. And up in Canada, I was talking about the instructors and in his instructor training manual it references four fingers. Yeah, and it's only a very light reference in the control section. However, when I really challenged to push to the next level and we looked at the actual curricula and not the school policy, it doesn't exist there and it doesn't exist in New Zealand and it doesn't exist in any of the MSF curricula - they had one in… the first one is 1973. It was the Beginning RiderCourse. Then they had the Motorcycle RiderCourse in ‘76 and then in ‘86 they had the Motorcycle RiderCourse: Riding and Street Skills, and then around ‘01, the Basic RiderCourse, came out and then they did a revision in 2014. Not a single one of those references fingers as far as the MSF goes, that I can locate, that I can find.I went so far as to look at the other curricula in the States as well. There's only a few states that don't use the MSF. That's California, Idaho, Oregon, Ohio, South Dakota and Washington. Those all have other curricula used in those states, or at least available in those states. The only one, the only one that I found, that had a reference to the number of fingers is Oregon State and Idaho. And there's one other state that references their stuff but their curricula mentions it, but only once and it's under the use of controls early on, when they describe what the controls are, and it's not in their range - the range books I have sitting in front of me. It's not in their manuals, but yet in these curricula, they just push and push and push and just, I mean instructors won't get certified if they don't do demos with four fingers.And I'm like, if it's that big of a deal, why did I have to dig so deep to find even a single reference in one curricula which I would argue and debate there was some flaws in that development process, or at least the team there. Sorry, guys,

MX BOOTS VS ADV BOOTS

Guest: Alex and Bret discuss some of the advantages and challenges of switching to a heavier boot for ADV riding.

Discussion Points:

1.  There is huge difference between motocross boots and boots that are marketed as an Adventure boot.

Key Takeaways:

- There is the challenge of getting away from boots that you can walk around in.  Move into boots that actually protect your ankles if you fall down.

Boots mentioned in this podcast are the Sidi Crossfire 3's - purchased on Amazon here.

Disclosure: I only recommend products I actually use, and all opinions expressed in this podcast are my own. This post contains affiliate links that - at no additional cost to you - I may earn a small commission.

ADV Tire Talk

Guest: Jarrett King is an ADV rider and mechanical designer at Mitas Tires.Discussion Points:1.  Air pressure – should I air down before riding off-road?2.  Why is the manufacturer's baseline pressure different from what's written on the sidewall?3.  Can a rider increase or decrease the size of the tire on the bike?Key Takeaways:- It’s interesting to observe what people think they can feel and what they can actually feel when it comes to tires.