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Jesus himself taught Purgatory exists.

And he's pretty clear that those there can be saved, but there is a level of punishment or suffering there.

In Luke 12, he gives a series of eschatological parables.

The first one ends thus:

"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

This makes it clear that his parable was about the end.

But then Luke continues:

41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

This is an eschatological (pointed towards the end) parable...

A - One steward is rewarded for being faithful and wise.(Heaven)

B - A second steward is a drunk, and he's "cut in half" (literally: διχοτομήσει- that's the word we get "dichotomy" from) and sent to be with the unbelievers (Hell)

Then we have two more.

C The third steward knows the master's will and doesn't get ready, he intentionally disobeys, so he's beaten with MANY blows (but not kicked out like B).

D The fourth steward doesn't know things, and thus is not as culpable for his mistakes. He is beaten with FEW blows (but again, is not thrust out like B was)

Escatalogically, this is purgatory. The one who knew more and failed IS beaten or punished, but ultimately attains heaven. The one who knew less is judged with more mercy. Still something akin to punishment happens (because being purified is a process) but salvation is the end for C and D, as it is of A. It is only B who is utterly destroyed.

And what's the next part of this gospel? In case you needed confirmation, Jesus gives ANOTHER parable about some place of punishment after this life that is not hell.

Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

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R. C. Sproul's quote has been taken down by Ligonier Ministries (for what seems to me obvious reasons) but here's the archive of it: https://web.archive.org/web/20120314002140/https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/we-talk-bible-being-inspired-word-god-would-men-wh/

***

My argument:

"The Bible is simply not sufficient by itself and there's a simple proof of this.

The Bible does not actually give you a list of books that belong in the Bible.

That had to come from an external Source - it came from a church which called itself Catholic and had Bishops and priests and deacons and prayed to Mary and the Saints and believed that the Eucharist that they celebrated with the actual body and blood of Jesus.

They're the ones who gave you the list of books that belong in scripture and if that list of books is infallible, it's because *they* - that church--are infallible and you should heed them still (ie you should be Catholic)

If they were mistaken, if they were not infallible, then the entire list of books you have in your Bible is itself fallible. Which means you have no reason to believe that any of the 27 books in the New Testament what's a 46 or 39 books that are in the Old Testament or actually inspired.

You can accept as true that all scripture is inspired by God and God breathed Etc, but if you can't answer the simple question "is this book scripture?" then you have no Bible. You have at best good spiritual reading, like Augustine's Confessions."

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This is by no means meant to be representative of every single online debate. I have had many wonderful and fruitful debates with people online, but sometimes they'd go a little South.

I found that for a lot of people they get very angry when you start to challenge them on things that they just don't understand, and I think that this is often times just something we all struggle with as human beings. But I think it also shows a lack of Charity a lack of faith and I would encourage any online debate participants to follow the model of Saint Peter who says to be prepared to give a defense of the hope that is in you but do it with gentleness and reference.

Unfortunately there wasn't a lot of gentleness or reverence, mostly just name calling.

And that's only in this particular thread. There are a lot of other ones too.

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Where do we see the eucharist in the bible, and is it just a symbol or more? In this video we look at a tract by James Lyman Ministries and figure out what points he's made that are utter defeaters of the Catholic Church

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The biblical evidence and historical evidence that Mary remained a Perpetual virgin even after the birth of Jesus is pretty sound. You can find a lot of different answers, to a number of different and common questions, like what about all of the brothers of Jesus we here in Scripture. ( The answer being that the Greek word adelphoi was a common circumlocution for more distant relatives when there wasn't a clear word that could be used. It can mean brother, but can also just mean Ken, and it can even mean people who you are simply close to. Of course as I'll discuss in this video it could also be step-siblings who were the children of Joseph from a prior marriage.)

However, when the angel greets Mary, he uses future tense language to tell her that she will have a son. Where she planning to have a traditional marriage then she ought to have answered with something like “oh, with Joseph, my betrothed husband.” but she doesn't.

Instead she asks a question, “ how can this be since I do not know man.” that very answer lets you know that she understood where babies came from and that she was not planning to engage in those activities, even when she was married.

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Is Peter the rock upon which Jesus built the church?

Here's a short discussion showing why it's reasonable to assume that Jesus WAS referring primarily to PETER as the rock, taken from a few different perspectives, including textually, philosophically, and historically why this makes sense.

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Source: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-of-benedict-xvi-the-church-and-the-scandal-of-sexual-abuse-59639

Vatican City, Apr 10, 2019 / 04:23 pm (CNA).- The following is a previously unpublished essay from Pope emeritus Benedict XVI:

Translated by Anian Christoph Wimmer.

Quotes from Scripture use Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE).

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Class Notes: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y0nm90mwbrbqevr/AADN4Pyho20JhqxIZsmB517ca?dl=0

In this relatively short video I'm going to discuss why and how we can know that the Catholic church is the church that Jesus Christ founded, how it compares to other churches and how it has persisted Through Time unchanged via Apostolic succession. We will look at this claim from scripture as well as history and philosophy, and this will bookend well with the next class which will be discussing scripture and tradition in particular

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RE: https://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

Text from THE LAST BATTLE by C. S. Lewis

“So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable trees till lo! in a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like the ostrich, and his size as an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold and the brightness of his eyes like gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Lagour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert.Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, though knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless they desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what the truly seek. “Then he breathed upon me and took away the trembling from my limbs and caused me to stand upon my feet. And after that, he said not much, but that we should meet again, and I must go further up and further in. Then he turned him about in a storm and flurry of gold and was gone suddenly. “And since then, O Kings and Ladies, I have been wandering to find him and my happiness is so great that it even weakens me like a wound. And this is the marvel of marvels, that he called me Beloved, me who am but as a dog-“

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