Pam Didner: Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of B2B Marketing and More with Pam Didner. Yay. I haven't done a lot of episodes lately. That's because I was busy, I don't know, writing a novel! Yes, I'm writing a novel. I will tell you more little later in a different episode, but today I have a special guest for you and she is a Director of Demand Generation for HMI Performance Incentive. And she is Agnes Fotino O'Connell. Hey Agnes, so happy to have you here.
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: Pam, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Pam Didner: Yes, and we met at the B2B MX in February. Agnes came to my workshop and we had a great time. We hit it off right there, and at that time I was talking about sales enablement, and Agnes told me specifically that that's something that she has been doing and also is doing it.
So that's why I invited Agnes to the podcast to talk about specifically couple things, how to better support sales and also better supporting sales through demand gen. Before we get started, Agnes, talk to us about your job and also what does your company do?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: Yeah, sure. HMI Performance Incentives is a leading incentive strategy company, helping companies with a broad spectrum of needs and challenges, motivate both their direct and indirect sales teams, customers, et cetera, to meet sales goals, increase loyalty, change behaviors, and everything else that you come to know and love about customer loyalty and incentive strategies.
Pam Didner: If I'm not mistaken, I think the incentive program that you set up is very much tailored for channel partners, such as the wholesalers working directly with their distributors and the dealers and the value-added resellers, assisting integrators. It’s basically kind of like a channel marketing tools and then that you use that to incentivize and a lot of channel partners to reach the sales goal. Can you give us a very specific example about that?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: Yeah, sure. We might work with a large wholesaler. Let's say they were in the building material space. They're a company that's trying to go after the contractor or the dealer, and we'd help them do a couple things. One, we'd help them create a customer loyalty program that might go after what we call the “middle 60” of customers, that group that is always with you, you know what to expect out of them. And then might also help target their top 20% of their customers--the customers that bring 80% of their business, typically.
And we might put together some form of group incentive travel trip for those top customers, helping build a moat about around them, helping them diffuse from competition taking them, and again, help grow that middle 60 to do more than they've historically done with them.
Pam Didner: So it is whatever your customer want to incentivize and you build a program and you are able to track the performance and then be able to, uh, award whoever reached that specific target.
Agnes Fotino O’Connell You're spot on, Pam, for an incentive marketing agency.
Pam Didner: Very, very good. So then talk to us now, you have told us specifically in terms of what your company has done. Your role is a Director of demand gen, and I remember when I was talking to you and you said you've been on the sales side, you've been on the marketing side.
Before I talked to you about demand gen, can you talk to us a little bit about being on the sales side, being on the marketing side for any B2B marketers would like to supporting sales? Do you have any specific tips, trick, or advice?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: I think you have to just really understand what's important to the sales folks at a myriad of levels. Right. And Pam, I actually think you gave some really amazing advice during your workshop at the B2B MX on. About, you know, finding your sales advocates, right? Finding those folks who are gonna help you make an imprint, make a case study of what you wanna accomplish as a marketer.
You really have to go put your trust in sales’ hands and help-- really help them help you get the job done. So what I like to say is, you know, go find that top salesperson and make them your advocate. Show them how your campaign--whatever you wanna roll out as a marketer--is gonna make them successful. Get them on board, and then go find someone maybe more in the middle, right? Someone who's meeting and exceeding their KPIs, uh, but is maybe not a rock star. And then onboard them onto your plan. And then when you have, you know, those two or four, six people on board, you're gonna be pretty untouchable with whatever you try to roll out to your sales work.
Pam Didner: So the bottom line is really, really get to know them. And it started with a small group of people might be your ally. Build your own tribe try first and show them what kind of value you would add, and then take it from there step by step.
Agnes Fotino O’Connell As marketers, we talk so much about trialing, right, and piloting and looking at data. And I think a lot of times marketers forget to do that internally. You know, we only tend to look at doing that externally, and it's kinda like, “Hey, take a moment, pause, pilot internally, see what the reaction is, and then go run that external.”
Pam Didner: Love it. Love it. With that being said, I'm gonna touch the next topic demand gen. So demand generation is hard. I mean, I've been doing demand generation myself. I mean even actually try to build my own pipeline; that is hard. Not to mention that you work for a company and you have to sell products.
And the many B2B marketers I have talked to a lot of time, they actually have a demand gen targets like a monthly basis. It's actually very, very hard. Do you have any kinda like a holy grail or any kind of campaigns or anything that you do to actually help people to understand what they can do to better optimize their marketing campaigns?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: That's a great question and it's a loaded one at that. You know, I think right now we've moved away from a lot of what I would call short-term KPIs and we're really looking at the long tail and--
Pam Didner: So can you clarify that? Sorry to interrupt. What is the short term KPI versus the long tail? Can you be very specific about it?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: In our business, we have a long selling cycle, like hopefully most B2B marketers are experiencing right now. Yeah, we're, we're talking about 18 to 24 month sales cycles on the long end of it, really high end, high dollar value amounts.
So for me, looking at monthly MQLs is really not a great output of what we're gonna expect in that quarter. For us, we're spending a lot of our time and attention looking at thought leadership, the sorts of downloads, the sorts of referral traffic that we're getting from that. If we can get pings on how that's coming up in conversations, how people are leveraging what we're putting out, there is our best metric right now to understand. We tend to not look at as much leads per month--net new MQLs--we're really looking at is our thought leadership content creating opportunities.
Pam Didner: So does that mean that a lot of your metrics that you are responsible is tied to, say, pipeline opportunity driven?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: 100% of our metrics.
Pam Didner: What do you do to quantify that pipeline opportunity through say, referral traffic or through like a thought leadership content? Because I feel there's a gap there is in terms of like the content consumption and the leadership play, and all of sudden there's a pipeline activity, so there's a gap right there and how do you connect that gap and bring that content consumption or thought leadership play down?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: We're doing something very simple, which is capturing it at opportunity state--essentially understanding from the salesperson's perspective how and why did this opportunity turn into a deal? And we're asking them in the opportunity form to state it. And it's really interesting the amount of people that are essentially saying, “Hey, I feel like this was demand gen oriented for these couple of reasons.” So our goals are to have essentially 50% of our opportunities be self-validated from sales saying this was demand gen who helped me create this.”
And then you can start to look backwards in the customer file, if you will, or in the contact card to understand where did they first come into our database? When did they start to engage with us? And then when did they turn into an opportunity? I think the future state is really looking at those three moments in time in identifying is demand generation, at least a portion responsible for those important turns.
Pam Didner: I love you identify the three moments as when they come in and when they probably become the opportunities. So based on your experience and the working backwards. What are some of the channel, from your perspective, is most common to capture that moment that possibly can train into pipeline opportunity?
What kind of campaign tactics tend to drive to that specific point?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: For us, it's a lot of referral traffic from third party subject matter experts, and I can give you an example. If we see that a contact is constantly attending one of our subject matter expert partner’s webinars on a certain topic that we're sponsoring, it's essentially a form of intent data, right? Yeah. It's so we're able to start to aggregate, “okay, there's something here, right? Their, their ears are up, they're looking for something in this. Can we start to feed them a more aggregated, essentially marketing plan of and around that topic?” And then can we start to create a conversation essentially using ABM tied to that?
Pam Didner: Yep. That makes a lot of sense. So you actually watch data like a hawk, I assume.
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: Yes, we're a small team and we're feisty at that. So you know, when you have a small team--as I'm sure a lot of B2B marketers can relate to right now--data's your best friend. I mean, to go do things at scale is you have to be data driven right now.
Pam Didner: I 100% agree. So can you talk to us about what some of the tools that you use to actually unravel some of the key insights?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell For us right now, we're pretty excited about our tech stack. I think a lot of things are kind of coming back in style right now. You know, at B2B MX, we heard a lot about direct mail. We're trying to add a few different tools for that into our marketing stack right now to try and understand behaviors; we have two instances of intent data formally stood up, one at the top of the funnel and one at the bottom of the funnel using our friends at Rollworks.
We're also trying to find a partner for more of that middle intent data where we just have some listening out in the universe. We're big advocates of HubSpot. We use them for both our CRM and our marketing automation. On the send standpoint, we've just set up an integration with a very cool tool called Hand Write, which is sending out, uh, handwritten notes from our sales team after they meet in person, automated at a conference. So we're able to track that. It'll have a QR code to send them to some of our resources put on it, as well as a QR to their business card that we can track on the back end.
We're doing obviously a ton with QR codes and trying to leverage that as another source of intent data. You know, we're played around with Gong as a great marketing tool, which you know, for your listeners is an incredible sales tracking tool that listens in, using machine learning and AI to sales calls. It's a marketing tool. Yeah, it's a marketing tool. So we've started to leverage a bit of the insights that that provides us. But at the end of the day, it's really putting people right now to look at those moments in time that were training opportunities and then trying to scale those moments.
Pam Didner: So you brought up a lot of tools. A lot of marketers are overwhelmed because they feel they have to add a different tool at a different stages. And all a sudden, your Martech stack becomes pretty complicated. And I think to some extent that's inevitable. You have to use a different tool at a different time, and there's no one tool that fits all.
And also, depending on what kind of campaigns you are running and different channels, you might need to use the different listening tools, as well. So that I want to make sure everybody understand that. When Agnes was talking about different tools that she needs to use, that's probably based on the process or the workflow or the marketing channels that she is utilizing.
You have to kind of understand and to talk to the vendors and see if that actually fit your own Martech stack or your own workflow. So it may fit, it may not. But make a note of that, understand what those tools will do, and then you can make a decision if that actually works for you. So for longest time, When I listened to a tool, I said, “oh my God, Agnes, you used that tool. You know what, I probably should use it too, right?” But then later I found out I need to evaluate that tool first before I can determine if that actually applies to me. But, uh, there was a period of time I was like, “you know what? Everybody's using it, I should do.” But that's not necessary the case. So I wanna make sure you understand that? Go ahead, Agnes.
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: If I can, you know, it's something I'm passionate about. I love giving people the next tool sort of recommendations. And something I'm coming outta, actually just yesterday with one of my team members is essentially a Martech stack audit.
Pam Didner: Audit? OK got it.
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: We look at how are all of our systems working together, and if you don't already have a flywheel of this, I would look at it and it's gonna become, hopefully it becomes a pretty complex flywheel because your different tools will speak to one another and you should draw that out.
So just start drawing dotted lines or hard lines if it's a very strong integration. And then you'll be able to show and explain internally how everything works, which is really helpful for both your team, but also the sales team, right? To show them, “Hey, here's how everything can work together. Here's what you can use, here's what I can use, here's what we can both use.”
And then what you could layer on top of that is where different tools layer in. So, for example, you could start to augment that flywheel to show here's what we're using at a lead level. Here's what we're using at an MQL level. Here's what we're using at an SQL level. Here are tools that we use everywhere.
And then you can start a part of this maybe ongoing deck is how I do it, at least, that's updated, that are, “hey, here are some tools that are not the right fit for us right now, but I've evaluated, I understand their pricing and I understand what they can do.” And then you just put a slide in for them with some of your raw notes. That way when a gap does come up, you're not scrambling trying to go on G2 or wherever you might go for your insights, it's, “oh, I think I already did something there, or let me see if I've already evaluated that.” Flip through your deck and it's waiting for you.
Pam Didner: I love it. So do you have that flywheel you can share with us?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: Yeah, I can send it out after this. I would love that.
Pam Didner: And I would actually add that to the video. Yeah. And uh, so people can see it.
Agnes Fotino O’Connell Yeah, I'm happy to.
Pam Didner: Yay. I love it. So, last question: now you've been working on the both sales and marketing side. Have you have any advice for anyone who are interested, kind of moving back and forth between sales and marketing, you know, any kind of career advice that you have for them?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell My first thought would be do both, and I truly stand behind that and I don't just stand behind, I put it in action. I've put up and stood up a program at HMI that is the HMI Sales and Marketing Excellence Program that allows young grads to come in and, and see and experience both sides of the house, everything from biz dev to field marketing, to social, to digital and so on.
But I, you know, I think it's really important your trajectory to understand how hard both roles are. It's an amazing skillset to understand what it's like to go, you know, do the role of a biz dev, making those 50-100 calls every day. And I will say in turn, you understand then, and I think have a higher level of appreciation for when you need those marketing assets at your disposal to send out how great those are to have and how to design them to be a better fit for not only the actual salespeople using them, but to the recipients.
So, do both if you can. It'll make you a, I think a more well-rounded individual going into either your sales or marketing career on whatever side that you end up. Or you could be like me and just maybe hover somewhere in the middle, if you find an organization that will let you.
Pam Didner: Well said, I really have nothing to add except I don't do two at the same time, but try each one of them in different time. So you really don't want to be Michelle Yeoh. Like be everywhere, anytime at the same time (laughs).
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: I couldn't agree.
Pam Didner: So one last fun question. So what show are you binge watching right now?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: I've been watching a bit of “Top Chef,” but the really old seasons of Gordon Ramsey, which has been fun and “Hell's Kitchen.” But I'm, I'm reading some really good books right now, Pam, if you're interested.
Pam Didner: What is it?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: I'm rereading Thinking Fast and Slow, which I think it's the best. And then for a fun book, reading, When Life Gives You Lululemons.
Pam Didner: Love it.
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: What are you reading, Pam?
Pam Didner: Oh, I'm reading (laughs) . I'm reading a drama. This is very dark. Gillian Flynn's Sharp Objects. My God, it's so dark. After I read it, I was like, “you know what? I'm actually getting a little depressed.”
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: Maybe a light book after thus, huh?
Pam Didner: Yeah, exactly. But that was like, I'm reading right now. I'm actually reading more and more fictional. I got away from the business reading in the past two years. I guess I just need to take a break after 10 years. It was like, you know, “I'm done. Lemme read some fictional book.” Anyway. Hey, Agnes, it's wonderful to have you. You share a lot of insight and by the way, it was so wonderful, so wonderful to meet you at my workshop. Such a great, great addition to have you at my workshop. We had a great time, right?
Agnes Fotino O’Connell: We sure did. Cannot recommend going to both B2B MX—I’ll give them a bit of a shout out cause that was a really excellent conference--but also if you have an opportunity to get to one of Pam’s. workshops. It was incredible. Truly lucky to sit in her grace there for like two and a half, three hours. You don't get a lot of those opportunities to learn like that from a marketing expert. Amazing Pam.
Pam Didner: I actually pay Agnes to say that. (both laugh) Just kidding. Just kidding. Alright. Hey Agnes, it's wonderful, wonderful to have you here. Wish you best of luck and keep us posted about all the stuff that you are doing and come back next time.
Agnes Fotino O’Connell Thanks Pam, I appreciate it.
Pam Didner: If you want to see Agnes’ flywheel, look in this episode's show notes or visit my website at pamdidner.com/podcasts, episode 226.
