If you’re looking for the very best examples of B2B marketing content, you’ve come to the right place. Because – after a whirlwind of nominations, shortlisting, group stages, and voting – we’ve whittled them down. Nineteen contenders. Five finalists.

And, ultimately, one winner.

In a departure from our usual format, this B2BQ&A tries to ask a question posed by our host: “Just what is the best B2B content of all time?”

Along the way, we find plenty of B2B inspiration, cast an eye over audiences’ changing content preferences, and hear from expert judges like Andrea Clatworthy, Robyn Collinge, Irene Triendl,  Doug Kessler, Katie Colbourne, and Rishi Dastidar… as well as our co-host for this episode, Rockee.io founder (and recently revealed sausage enthusiast) Matt Laybourn.

After about 80 episodes, it’s also our final podcast hosted by Radix Creative Director David McGuire, who’s leaving us to embark on a new adventure. (There’s plenty more B2BQ&A to come, though, courtesy of our new-look hosting team. Wait and see!)

You’ll find a full transcript of this episode at the end of this post… just keep scrolling.

You can find the full list of nominees right here. And, reviewing the vote, here’s what we discovered:

Yes, AI-driven filler is making search engine results a bit unreliable lately. But when audiences do find content with true value, they’re all the more likely to appreciate it.

As Matt says: “As much as there’s a there’s a shift in the landscape with Google search results, people will find and gravitate towards really good content… like: I found this awesome thing, and I want to share it with you.”

Judging the podcast category, Irene says: “There is actually something quite arrogant in assuming people are going to want to listen to you and your guests talk on and on for an hour, or however long the podcast is. So if you do that, I think you owe it to your audience to have something interesting to say and to be really well prepared. And that you’re offering them something that they can’t get elsewhere faster or better. And this is ultimately true for all content, really. People’s time is precious, and you can’t take it for granted that they are going to give it to you.”

Gulp. We’re doing our best, Irene. Honest.

The high number of podcasts among the nominees is testament to the rise of community marketing, and the power of getting people to identify with your content.

Matt puts this down to authenticity, saying: “People want to hear a natural conversation, not someone kind of regurgitating, I don’t know, frameworks or the best practice. It’s got to be an authentic thing.”

No spoilers, but among famous players like Adobe Marketing Cloud, GE, and Volvo Trucks, smaller names can really hold their own – all they need is a fresh, witty way to express themselves. Whether it’s a financial blog about Chicken McNuggets, a rhyming explainer video, or – yes – a dating app for cows, content is a realm where a bright idea can carry the day.

Speaking about Iron Mountain’s entry, Rishi says: “Wit and whimsy are rarely used tools in this world. On this evidence, one wonders why.”

4:22 – Best B2B Blog Post

8:52 – Best B2B Podcast

13:20 – Best B2B Long-Form Content

17:20 – Best B2B Video Ads

20:25 – Best Wildcard Content

24:21 – Grand Final: The Best B2B Content of All Time

If you have a question about B2B content writing, we absolutely want to hear it. Send us a voice memo at [email protected].

And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share (or if you’d just like to say hello to the podcast’s new hosts), you can connect with us on LinkedIn and Twitter: @radixcom.

Finally, David has a massive list of goodbye-and-thanks: everyone he’s interviewed or co-hosted with, everyone who’s listened, and everyone who’s sent us a copywriting pro-tip. Thanks to Gareth at Bang and Smash for sound editing heroics, and Hannah Beech for super podcast branding. And especially thanks to Emily King and Fiona Campbell-Howes for birthing this podcast and passing it on. Thank you.

OK. You know we promised you that transcript…?

David McGuire: What is the best example of B2B content, ever?

Matt Laybourn: That’s a great question. Let’s ask the very best 10 B2B judges that we can find – and the voting public – to find out.

David: Hello, Listener, and welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing.

This is episode 113. And as this year marks the 10th anniversary of our podcast, we’re taking the very unusual step of trying to answer a question from me: “Just what is the best bit of B2B content, ever?”

To help me I’m joined by one of the judges from our expert panel. From rockee.io and the Sausage Factory podcast. It’s Matt Laybourn. Matt, hi! Welcome.

Matt: Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be here.

David: The Sausage Factory, I’ve got to ask you about that. That’s a new podcast, right? Love the name. Are you just talking about sausages a lot?

Matt: (Laughs) Yeah, so the reason behind it being called the Sausage Factory is because our perception – at least me and my co-host Mark Willis – our perception is we’re in a cycle of endlessly making content at the moment and not worrying about the quality of it. You know, the rise of AI and all of that type of stuff. So things have become a bit of a sausage factory. But the interesting side addition that I didn’t expect for this, is we now have this weird Venn Diagram of B2B marketers and sausage enthusiasts. And it’s kind of this little interesting crossover

David: That Venn diagram is a circle?

Matt: Yeah, you’d think so, but there’s been some discerning comments about certain types of sausages, which, again, is not something we expected to talk about on the pod.

David: Well, you’re very well qualified then if it’s a podcast about content that stands out from the run-of-the-mill because that’s what we’re trying to get to the bottom of today.

Before we go any further, I should probably introduce myself, shouldn’t I? My name’s David McGuire. I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, which is the B2B tech writing agency. And the reason I get to take the self-indulgent step of posing my own question for this B2BQ&A is that after eight years, this is my last time in the host’s chair of this podcast.

Don’t worry, I’m handing over to a fabulous rotating roster of hosts: George, Katy, Steve, and if you’re very lucky, Kieran. And we have many more brilliant episodes in the pipeline for you. So don’t worry, there is more B2BQ&A to come, just not with me.

So if you do have any comments or suggestions, or you’d just like to welcome the new hosts, you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter.

Announcer: @radixcom.

David: And if you want the show to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email.

Announcer: [email protected].

David: Right. That’s enough prevarication. Let’s get on with the serious business of finding the best B2B content of all time.

First, I should start by saying thank you to everybody who put forward their favorite examples of B2B content. We took all of your nominations, and we put them in front of a brilliant panel of 10 B2B marketing experts, as well as senior Radix writers, who helped us to create five category shortlists: best blog, podcast, long-form content, video ad, and a wildcard category for entries that kind of defied description.

We had a public vote, and the winner of each category went forward to the Grand Final, the voting for which closed just a few minutes ago. And in a few moments, we’ll reveal who won. Matt, are you ready?

Matt: I am very ready. I’m very excited. Let’s do this.

David: You sure?

Matt: Yeah. Come on let’s go.

David: Okay, let’s go.

Voiceover: Best B2B Blog Post.

David: Blogs are such a staple of B2B content marketing, it’s no surprise we’ve got lots of strong contenders here. So thanks to Andrea Clatworthy at Fujitsu and Robyn Collinge of WeTransfer who helped our Head of Copy, Matt, and Senior Copywriter George compile the shortlist.

Now, they very particularly enjoyed Beam’s How to Write a B2B Blog Intro that isn’t Boring AF and Hank Barnes of Gartner’s The Tyranny of More, but ultimately the four they selected were as follows:

So Matt, having been writing blogs for a while it feels to me like they’ve changed in nature a lot over the last few years in B2B; that they’ve become more of a mainstay of the content strategy where once they might have been SEO filler, I guess. Is that something that you kind of recognise? Why do you think it might be?

Matt: Yes, it’s an interesting mix at the moment, because you know, things like programmatic AI are starting to kind of make the pendulum swing the other way a little bit again, because we’re getting this kind of overpopulation of essentially facts-based articles. They don’t have editorial quality to them, they’re just telling the reader what they probably were looking for, for that search term.

And it’s funny enough was talking about this earlier, but some of that is fine. Some of that is fine, someone wants a very simple answer to a simple question. But then you start to lose the quality of, you know, where does the editorial come in, where does the tone of voice the brand, the real kind of in-depth, exciting solution-based content to those terms really start to come in.

So, blogs are going through a bit of a whirlwind. And I think it’s harder for brands at the moment, just because of the way Google is trying to figure out how to deal with essentially an influx of content. The barrier to entry to make content could not be lower at the moment, so how do we discern the difference between good, bad and ugly, I guess, at the moment. And Google doesn’t quite know that yet, because I’ve seen so many marketers going, “I just see bad content on search result pages at the moment.”

The battle to be relevant and to be interesting is getting harder and harder. So I don’t know – I’m kind of thinking the pendulum swinging around a little bit and doesn’t quite know where to land at the moment.

David: I think, until Google can sort that out, it might be social and other places, that really will help to reward the best blog content, I suppose. The more there is of this kind of wide base of low-quality content, the more that the real imagination has to stand out.

And I think that’s something that we’ve seen in the winner – with all of these blog posts – but in particular, in the winner, which is Assure Hedge – I think they’re now Alt 21 – which is The Chicken McNuggets secret ingredient is not what you think… which was voted the best B2B content of 2021 by our listeners, and it’s won again here.

Andrea Clatworthy said, “Fab this! Quite long, but a great story, which I enjoyed reading.” And Robyn Collinge agreed. She said, “I bloody love a metaphor to help me understand complex things.” And it’s super to see a blog post that’s built around the kind of storytelling that AI will never be able to do. And people actually recognising the value of that

Matt: A hundred percent. And I think that’s the interesting thing. As much as there’s a bit of a shift in the landscape with Google search results and things like that, people will find and gravitate towards really good content. So social groups, Slack groups, internal sharing groups, and things like that as well, they’ll be like, “I found this awesome thing, and I want to share it with you.”

So the best will still rise above it. We’ve just got a bit of a slight traffic issue in the short term. But normal service will be resumed I’m sure, don’t worry.

David: So congratulations to you, Assure Hedge, the best B2B blog of all time.

Announcer: Best B2B Podcast.

David: Loads of nominations we got here, which is a bit of a surprise given that when you talk about B2B content, podcasts might not be the first thing you think of. But I guess it is all about getting that community who’ll identify with your content, stick up for it, and end up nominating it for things.

Matt, you’re a podcaster yourself and you judged this category, along with Doug Kessler of Velocity Partners and Irene Triendl of Say What? So, what did you think?

Matt: It was a really interesting category. The thing that I was listening out for… so I kind of did my own research recently to get my own pod up and running and go, “What are the things I really like in a podcast?” And one word always comes up, and it’s authenticity.

So a lot of people listen to podcasts on the go on the move – trains, buses, whatever it may be – and they want to hear something that is kind of a natural conversation, not someone kind of regurgitating, I don’t know, frameworks or the best practice. It’s got to be an authentic thing between two or three people. And that’s what I think the very best in this category do for us.

David: Irene also sent us some audio and she found this category pretty tough to judge, I think.

Irene: I have to say, this has been a lot harder than I thought; it’s a tough category. I think for me, the key thing is, there is actually something quite arrogant in assuming that people are going to want to listen to you and your guests talk on and on for an hour, or however long the podcast is. So if you do that, I think you do owe it to your audience to have something interesting to say and to be really well prepared. And that you’re offering them something that they can’t get elsewhere, or can’t get elsewhere faster or better. And this is ultimately true for all content, really. People’s time is precious, and you can’t take it for granted that they are going to give it to you.

David: Out of a long list, there were quite a few that caught the judges’ eye. I think that between you, you commended Agencyphonics by Cactus, Everyone Hates Marketers by Louis Grenier, Uncensored CMO by Jon Evans. And I know Doug Kessler was particularly a fan of the Electronic Propaganda Society by Mathew Sweezey.

But ultimately, it came down to:

And by an absolute landslide, Call to Action took it.

So congratulations to Gasp. That was nominated by Fractional CMO, Graham Fraser, and Doug said…

Doug Kessler: Fun and sweary and it’s got a fun voice to it. Good guests list. They package it up well as a show with segments and everything – I like that.

David: Matt, this one stood out for you as well, didn’t it?

Matt: Yeah, it really did. I’m a massive Rolling Stones fan. So the fact that he had “I can’t get no call to action” as a theme tune… Well, that’s not the sole reason, obviously but okay, I’m interested from the very first 30 seconds, you’ve got me. But no, again, it was everything I love about a podcast where it’s just authentic good conversation.

So I listened to a really amazing one the other week with Chris Paouros. And it was just it really got to me. Really powerful conversation, learning more about the person behind the marketer as well. So I loved how that transcended just kind of the normal marketing conversation. So a really deserved winner.

David: Yeah, I’m glad you called that one out because, Chris Paouros, among other things, runs Proud Lilywhites. And as Spurs fan myself, and someone who you know LGBT Spurs fans are among my very favorite people in the world. You know, always deeply grateful for what Chris does. So to actually hear her interviewed was super.

So brilliant, well done to Gasp and the Call to Action podcast, you are officially the best B2B podcast of all time.

Announcer: Best Long-Form B2B Content.

David: So classically, when you think of B2B content, it’s long-form stuff that often you’ll think about. But this category had, in the end, no white papers and no ebooks on the shortlist. (Thanks to Maureen Blandford, founder of Serendipitus, and Jason Miller of Tyk, for helping Katy Eddy compile this shortlist for us.) Having said that, obviously, we had good examples, but I think there were fewer than they were expecting. Do you think there might be a reason why we might, relatively speaking, see fewer examples in the long-form category?

Matt: I think it’s just so much harder to maintain people’s attention, is the really simple answer. We’re in an environment now where you have seconds to get someone’s attention. So much emphasis is on messaging and short-form at the moment. So for something long-form, that someone could sit there for more than 15 minutes, if I’m honest, to stand out, all of a sudden this is a very challenging category. And the best really have to have something quite incredible to keep people hooked.

David: I think you’re right. And often the thing is that because they’re about something very specific as well, they might not ever reach a very wide audience. I think Andrea Clatworthy made the point that sometimes the best content is so super targeted, it’s not even necessarily in the public domain. You know, a lot of these things will be gated. So it’s probably quite understandable that we had relatively few to choose from.

But we did have some good nominees, and the judges particularly liked After the Virus by Cognizant, but ultimately the three that they picked and agreed on, were:

Now the vote in this category was really close; there were two votes between first and third place.

The winner was Ahrefs and Matt, this was actually your nomination wasn’t it?

Matt: Have I tipped the balance with my vote here? Yeah, it’s rationale behind it is going back to this point: it’s got to be something pretty incredible to keep you hooked. And this is a piece of content I go back to time and time again as my source of authority and credibility because it’s just an incredibly in-depth, clever, well-written, well-structured guide on how to set up fundamentals in SEO. And it sounds like a boring subject, but so many people must have to go back to this and go, “Okay now I’m gonna jump to this chapter. I’m gonna go to that chapter.” And I’m kind of a weird sucker for content UX as well. And the way they just have everything displayed perfect on the page, they have social proof, excellent categorisation blending in with videos infographics, imagery, and really good, high-quality, authoritative, written content. It’s an absolute treat.

David: And Katy, our Senior Copywriter here agreed with you, she said, “This huge guide could have been overwhelming, but mercifully, it’s not. The writing’s really accessible but without skimping on detail. It’s easy to navigate. And it’s visually clean with cute icons and useful diagrams. For Ahrefs, this format is easy to revisit and update when best practice inevitably changes. And it’s simple for readers to revisit the relevant bits whenever they want a refresher.” Just as you’ve done. So I think you’re both well agreed on that.

So congratulations to Ahrefs, your Beginner’s Guide to SEO is officially the best long-form B2B content of all time.

Announcer: Best B2B Video Ads.

David: Okay. I mean, this is always the eye-catching one because when you think of like, when B2B gets creative, when it gets humorous, when it sparks emotion – it’s often short videos that we’re talking about.

So we’re really grateful to Joel Harrison, Editor-in-Chief of B2B Marketing, and Basware’s Katie Colbourne for helping our Head of Development, Kieran compile the shortlist. The judges enjoyed Lenovo’s Metal Review video, but with some conflict over whether that was really B2B, the shortlist came down to:

This was the closest category; we actually had a tie in the public vote. So we went back to the judges and found that only one had placed in all three of their top three favorites. And that is Iron Mountain. It was originally nominated by Rishi Dastidar who said, “How do you make *checks notes* storing backup magnetic tapes interesting? Why not try some rhymes and a charming animation style? Wit and whimsy are rarely used tools in this world. On this evidence one wonders why.”

And among the judges, Katie Colbourne agreed she said, “This engaged me quite a bit as it used real-life examples of things we all do and are guilty of. So it had that emotive and connection element. It was also fast-paced, and it was funny from the off.”

What did you think of it, Matt?

Matt: Yeah, I completely agree with those comments. Super engaging. I was kind of wondering what this is at the beginning because you’re like, “Is this gonna be another boring B2B video, please don’t be boring.” And then you’re like, “Okay, this is funny. This is interesting. This is engaging.” But it focused on the problem. It was like, here’s a very clear problem and they’ve gone about it in a really creative way and given it different environments, and then taken it in towards a solution, and it’s absolutely perfect for short-form content, did everything you wanted it to do.

David: It shows that with a bit of thought and a bit of creativity, you can really cut through because there are some big hitters in this category, right? The Epic Split, which is many people’s immediate thing that they think about as great B2B content came third in this category, you know. And so you compete with big hitters like Volvo Trucks or you know Adobe Marketing Cloud who always – and GE – who always do these funny emotional videos, just shows with a bit of thought and a good script, you can really compete on that playing field and stand out.

So, well done Iron Mountain, yours is the best B2B video ad of all time.

Announcer: Best Wildcard Content.

David: Now, some of the nominees didn’t fit neatly into any category. So we created this extra one. Thanks to Rishi Dastidar, who’s Senior Writer at venturethree – and also a darn fine poet – for helping our senior copywriter Steve get to the bottom of this shortlist.

So ultimately, they chose:

Matt, Rockee helps marketers to get feedback and understand what people really enjoy about their content. So, with access to that information, do you see new formats, new approaches? If we run this in five or 10 years’ time again, might there be completely different kinds of B2B content? What do you think the future might hold?

Matt: Yeah, it’s really interesting, because we started to get feedback we just simply weren’t expecting, where people are asking for slightly different formats of where things work. So for example, you posted for the digital webinar, or something like that. It’s quite interesting, because people go, “This is too long, I want to see shorter versions of it.” So immediately, you’re getting data there to go, “Look, I can take this into maybe four or five snippets, I can put it into social short form. I can even take it to YouTube short form – I can make something really interesting and engaging when I have a long-form piece of content.”

So there’s a huge evolution happening. And that’s what the audience is asking for. It’s related to something they consume in a snappier format or that goes to the precise problem that they’re trying to solve. So that’s something we’re seeing straight away from Rockee at the moment is there’s a kind of a move away from longer form. So that’s something that’s certainly emerging.

And the other one is around creators as well, that that goes back to that authenticity piece, less around AI at the moment, but people who can, you know, rise up as a profile for their brand. An example is Todd Clouser, who used to be at Refine Labs and is now at lavender.ai. He does an incredible job of just making short comic videos that are related to the problem and the solution of the brand he works for.

So yeah, interesting trends emerging. I think it might gravitate towards those creative formats in the next couple of years, for sure.

David: So more profile for kind of, you know, individual personalities, and potentially more atomisation of bigger content pieces.

Matt: Yeah, a hundred percent. We’re moving to snack form type of stuff and we’re on a diet from long form. And yeah, that’s certainly what the audience is asking for. But it’s very competitive; using feedback is a great way of getting an insight as to which are the most juicy bits that you can focus on.

David: So we took the vote for our wildcard content, and Hectare Agritech and Tudder, which, if you don’t know, is their dating app for cows. Again, it was voted the Best Content of 2019. It ran away with this category once again. And Rishi Dastidar sent some audio to explain why he thought it was well-deserved.

Rishi Dastidar: It’s a very simple idea. The idea of a dating app for animals: cattle and sheep. I love the wit here. It’s a very simple idea, but it’s been executed really well. And that cross-pollination just really does cut through and raises a smile.

David: So well done, Hectare Agritech. Tudder is the best, I guess, B2B dating app of all time?

Announcer: The Grand Final.

David: So this brings us to the moment of truth. We have our five finalists:

Matt, are you ready to find out what is officially the best B2B content of all time?

Matt: Come on, I can’t wait any longer The suspense is killing me. Let’s do it.

David: Okay.

In third place… we have Hectare Agritech with Tudder.

In second place… it’s Assure Hedge with The Chicken McNuggets secret ingredient is not what you think.

In first place… it’s Gasp with the Call to Action podcast.

I think a few years ago you would never have thought that the best B2B content of all time would be a podcast, would you?

Matt: Definitely not. I don’t think people thought podcasts would ever pick up and no one would listen to a B2B podcast. But love this, I love this winner, thoroughly deserved. It’s real content, real people doing real things.

David: What is it you love about it?

Matt: I’m gonna say authenticity again. It’s real people, you know, having a good conversation, finding out about their experience, how they got to where they are, their expertise, their knowledge, beautifully framed, entertaining. Entertaining is probably another key word; I’d happily listen to it anywhere I go. So, yeah, incredible winner.

David: I mean, obviously, there’s an element to it of: “It’s a public vote, you know.” And with any competition like this, where it’s open, of course, it’s a subjective choice. And, of course, there’s an element of who will get people to vote for you.

But, for me, that’s kind of why podcasts are so good. It’s about getting that community that identify with you. And so the fact that they’ve won, shows the strength of their community, and it shows it’s working, right?

Matt: Yeah. 100%. And that’s what they’re kind of designed for. There are little subsections of all of our various parts of B2B marketing in different markets, and you want to meet up with fellow people who have the same opinions and kind of the same, you know, ambitions and thoughts and things like that. It’s great to see those communities come together, you know, loyal fan base and like good authoritative content. It’s a beautiful mix.

David: Yeah, I think the reason that we have the judges involved in this process, to do the shortlisting, is ultimately, the winner is always going to be subjective; everyone’s going to have a different view. But all of our five finalists – indeed, all of the 19 shortlisted examples – are worthy winners, and hopefully, fairly inspiring examples of good B2B content. And that, ultimately, is what this question was about. It was about you know, finding examples, finding ideas, finding some inspiration. So hopefully, we’ve managed that.

Well done, Gasp. Well done, Giles Edwards. Well done, Call to Action.

So, there you have it, the best B2B content of all time. Thank you to everybody who nominated. Thank you to everybody who voted. Thank you to all our judges. And, of course, thank you, Matt, for joining us to analyse it and go through these with us. I hope it’s been interesting.

Matt: It’s been incredible. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on.

David: And Matt, if people want to hear more from you, or hear the Sausage Factory – experience the sausage – where would they find that?

Matt: So you can find us on any good publishing channel. We’re on Spotify, we’re on Apple podcasts. Or you can visit rockee.io. And we’re very much trying to dissect what does great content look like in modern B2B, over all of those formats. So yeah, come and have a look.

David: Through the medium of tasty sausage snacks, presumably?

Matt: Through sausage-based analogies and jokes. Yes.

David: B2BQ&A will be back soon, albeit without me. I’d like to thank everyone who’s co-hosted over the years, everyone who’s let me badger them with impertinent questions, everyone who’s sent us questions of their own or copywriting pro tips.

I’d especially like to thank Emily King and Fiona Campbell-Howes for starting this fabulous podcast. And most of all, I’d like to thank you listener for joining me this past 80 or so episodes. Until next time, make great content.

David and Matt: Goodbye!

The post B2BQ&A 113: What’s the best B2B content EVER? appeared first on Radix.

As Greek philosopher Heraclitus pointed out, change is the only constant. So, how can B2B marketers ensure their content stays up-to-date and relevant to customers when technology and markets never stand still?

We’ll find out in this episode of B2BQ&A, where we answer a question posed by Kate Terry, Head of Demand Generation at Unily.

Specifically, Kate asked:

“How do you keep up with content when your products and business keep evolving into new markets?”

To tackle Kate’s question, we welcome to the podcast two experts with a wealth of experience in content marketing. Our special interview guest is Jason Miller, Head of Brand and Content at Tyk, and our guest co-host is Diane Wiredu, B2B messaging strategist and founder of Lion Words.

Along with Radix’s George Reith, our guests explore how your messaging can stay consistent when everything else is changing.

In this episode, you’ll also learn an essential copywriting pro tip from Ettie Bailey-King, founder of Fighting Talk Communications and consultant for inclusive and accessible content.

You’ll find a full transcript of this episode at the end of this post.

Jason suggests having a core of 80% of content; what he calls “big rock content”. According to Jason, “Your core content is based around the subject area you want to own and should answer the number one question in your customers’ minds. The remaining 20% of little rock content you can set aside for experimentation to try out ideas.”

There’s a reason our most trusted and respected textbooks remain popular for years: they’re updated so they stay relevant through change. Jason’s tip is to treat your core content the same way, by giving it a fresh coat of paint every now and again. But Jason doesn’t think we need to reinvent the wheel. Simplify, get back to basics, answer questions, and, above all, be helpful.

If you trust the reasons for creating a piece of content, you should give it every opportunity to work. For Jason’s team, that could mean tweaking the format, the targeting, or the approach. “Every piece of content that me or my team has ever created at any org has always been created for a purpose rooted in data… So if we put it out there, and it doesn’t perform, we don’t give up.”

“Every time there’s a change… there’s an opportunity to answer the biggest questions,” says Jason. “As soon as we see that… we go after the big questions with some blog and video content. But then we go to our leadership and we say, ‘What does this mean?’”

Jason also recommends leaning on trusted advisors for guidance during times of change. But he’s always cautious when new voices come on the scene. “There’s no shortage of experts and opinions out there,” he says. “It’s how you curate them, and how you build trust or trust those folks to keep you in a good place.”

3:46 – George poses Kate Terry’s question to Jason Miller.

17:24 – Co-host Diane Wiredu shares her thoughts on Jason’s insights.

21:40 – Diane and George discuss the changes that generative AI could bring.

28:13 – Ettie Bailey-King shares her copywriting pro tip.

To get your burning B2B content questions answered, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can connect with us on LinkedIn and Twitter: @radixcom.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Kate Terry: How do you keep up with content when your product and business keep evolving into new markets?

Diane Wiredu: That’s a great question. Let’s ask Jason Miller from Tyk.

George Reith: Hello, listener, and welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is Episode 112.

Diane: Change is something of a constant in the world of B2B. But when your organisation, its products, and even the entire industry you work in, are constantly changing, how do you make sure your content stays up-to-date and relevant?

Well, in a few moments, content marketing guru Jason Miller will answer that very question, posed by Kate Terry from Unily. Plus, we’ll hear a copywriting pro tip from Ettie Bailey-King.

George: But first, we should introduce ourselves. It’s been a long time since I hosted the Radix podcast. But if you’re a longtime listener, you might remember my dulcet tones.

I’m George Reith, Senior Copywriter at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency. And today I’m delighted to be joined by Diane Wiredu founder and messaging strategist at Lion Words. Diane, thank you so much for joining us.

Diane: Thank you for having me, I’m excited to help you host.

George: Oh, it’s such a pleasure. And Diane, I hope you don’t mind, but I had a quick look at your LinkedIn and I saw that you’ve done all sorts of things over the years from messaging strategy to translation and everything in between. How do you manage it all?

Diane: There’s been an evolution over the years; many pivots and many sorts of changes in positioning. But, right now I am exclusively focussed on messaging strategy for B2B and B2B Tech – and SaaS in particular.

But, my journey has been quite a linear one, I think. My background was in translation and languages. And I moved into copywriting and the world of copywriting. And from there kind of into the more strategic side of how you actually build a kind of messaging framework that can inform your copy and content.

George: It’s great to hear actually about your own transformation. Considering the theme of today’s episode is very much about change, it sounds like you’ve had a fair few of your own over your career. So, I think you’re well-placed to co-host this one.

Diane: I think so too, yeah.

George: Cool. So, before we get into the meat of it and start answering this episode’s question… Diane, would you mind telling the listener how they can get in touch with the show?

Diane: Sure thing. Listener, if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter.

Voiceover: @radixcom.

Diane: Or, if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email.

Voiceover: [email protected].

George: Thanks very much.

Diane: Now it’s time for our B2BQ&A for this episode. It comes from Unily’s Head of Demand Generation, Kate Terry.

Kate Terry: How do you keep up with content when your product and business keep evolving into new markets?

George: Thanks for your question, Kate.

It’s a thought that’s probably immensely common across the B2B marketing world – we have new technologies constantly coming into play and threatening to change the game. But it’s not just external changes to watch out for. Even changes a company makes to its own products and messaging can risk existing content falling out of vogue very quickly.

So, how do you keep ahead of change and ensure your marketing content stays relevant? To find out, I spoke with Jason Miller – the head of brand and content at Tyk.

If you’ve not come across Tyk before, they offer a full lifecycle API management gateway. So that means the things that businesses use to connect one thing to another. And when you’ve got lots of connections going on, loads of different components keep changing, they have to keep changing, too.

So, I sat down with him and asked how he’s handled industry and technology changes across his illustrious career in B2B marketing. And I asked him Kate’s question directly, “How do you keep up with content and keep it clear, sharp and consistent when your product and business keep changing?”

Jason Miller: So, you know, it’s a great question. I think I would go back to say, “Everything changed, but nothing changed.” Right?

So, even from my days at Marketo, or LinkedIn, or Microsoft, the core fundamentals of the content strategy that I believed in, and that I believe still works to this day, are still there.

You have your core content which is answering the number one question in a customer and prospect’s minds. And, you know, it’s based around what sort of conversation you want to own. That’s sort of what we call the big rock content. And that big rock content’s a stake in the ground – what conversations do you want to own? So that’s your core, that’s always-on stuff, right? I’d say that’s about 75–80% of your content strategy.

Then that 20% is where we put in sort of this intelligent risk content, which is the blog stuff, video stuff. And that’s based on not only, you know, extrapolating, slicing and dicing the big rock content, keeping that always-on strategy. But it’s also carving out some space for experimentation and going after new conversations. Or finding if there’s an appetite for a direction that you want to take that conversation.

So yeah, when you have that big rock, and you have the blog, and you have those two pieces moving, I think that’s core and critical to any piece, any content strategy. And anyone who says anything different? You know, you have to dive into how much can you repurpose and how much value can you extract out of every piece of content? That’s number one.

Number two: is that piece of content necessary?

Number three: how do you activate that content effectively, outside of just checking boxes and pushing it out, and moving on to the next thing?

So, I think it doesn’t matter if your business is changing, or the conversation’s shifting, or if the products evolving, which it obviously should be. It’s a matter of: do you have a core piece of evergreen content that you can evolve with it, that you can put a fresh coat of paint on?

And you treat it like a best-selling book. I mean, you look at something like a classic like The New Rules of PR and Marketing by the great David Meerman Scott, or Ann Handley’s Everybody Writes. These are classic books, essential books, and each year they do a new version of it. Why can’t you just think of your content like that?

So, I’d say that’s worked for the past 10 years, and it continues to work. The channels, the activation strategies aren’t going to change. But again, I don’t think we need to spend too much time trying to reinvent the wheel. Simplify, get back to basics, answer questions, be helpful, and put in those intelligent risks.

George: Just wondering if someone’s listening to that and thinking, “Well, how do I get back to basics? How do I discover like, what is my big rock for my brand?” How’s the best way to go about that?

Jason: There’s no question about what topics we should be creating for our audiences. All the data is out there; from the various numbers of free and paid tools, you can find out within a second, right? So, that’s the data; that approach of what people are searching on.

There’s also the element of what are they not searching on, that value that you provide, that you can put an answer to, or put something out there, or an innovative solution, right?

So, there’s a balance between intent search data, which is core and which should always be on. You should always be looking at and adjusting accordingly. Obviously, that’s going to shift around AI and ChatGPT, and wherever Google goes with this.

But at the end of the day, it’s still pulling from the best of the best of authoritative content. And that’s what we should be trying to address with the best content we can, written with opinions and fact-checked and researched and providing some sort of direction instead of just answering the question.

But, again, it’s as simple as: “What’s the number one question that someone would type into a search engine or type in ChatGPT, that you want to be the best answer for? The most creative answer for? The most helpful answer for? And how do you build on that?”

And the big rock is the core, and every piece of content that comes out of that derivative piece of content – video, podcasts, whatever it may be – just links back and supports that. So, you can own that conversation.

There’s a wealth of content that we know that it’s the content apocalypse, or whatever, I think Mark Schaefer calls it Content Shock. Well, you know, we’re probably on the verge of content shock 3.0 with all the AI-generated stuff coming out. The difference here is, everybody wants to be better storytellers; everybody wants to be more creative.

But we discovered very quickly, and I saw this at Microsoft, I saw this at LinkedIn, that it’s very difficult to tell a very compelling story that stands out and tie it back to the product. We thought it’s super easy. Everybody’s a storyteller, Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Well, it’s hard. And it’s hard to get people to pay attention not because of the attention spans, but because of all the crap that’s out there that’s inundating them. And everyone’s looking for a shortcut to going viral or a shortcut to get engagement.

And if you look at it, you take a step back, and you look at creativity. And creativity has been associated with arts and design, and I think if you take a look at how creativity can be applied to B2B, B2C marketing, whatever, creativity is about finding unique solutions, unique ways to address very complex problems. And the more constraints you have, the more elegant that solution can be.

So, I think if you take that storytelling angle, and you bring in this new definition of creativity, or this revised definition of creativity, and apply that to really good informative content – add opinions, add personality – that’s the piece that we’re missing. That’s the piece that’s going to stand out.

That’s the element that I think we’re missing, and we talk about it so much, but every time a brand gets up to bat and takes a big swing… they seem to get cold feet. And they don’t want to take a risk and they play it safe, and then it gets lost. And that’s what drives me crazy.

George: I’m just wondering if we could talk a little bit about sort of how you guys are navigating that journey and putting that unique value into your content to sort of stave off the change side that we’ve been talking about.

Jason: Out of all the roles I’ve ever had, I think this is the most challenging, but also the most rewarding. I don’t want that to sound cheesy, but marketing to a very technical audience – they don’t like to be marketed to they don’t like the fluff and the snake oil,  they like to solve problems. And they like to get to the core, and they like straight talking.

So, it’s almost like everyone should take lessons from marketing to this technical crowd – developers, CIOs, CTOs, architects – because it is challenging, and you have to be real. And they can see through all this fluff and BS.

So, Tyk is an open-source gateway, full lifecycle API management platform, we do lots of different things. But what we’re seeing in the market, and it’s really interesting and I think it’s called a once-in-a-marketing-lifetime opportunity, you’re seeing category creation happen right before your eyes.

APIs are becoming much more mainstream, they used to be very technical, just for developers and architects. But now everyone needs to understand the basics of how you can use APIs to grow and monetise your products, right? So, we’re seeing new audiences come into this very technical world and there’s an opportunity to not only educate them, and build trust with them, but also to create a new category.

It’s always about, you know, educating and building trust. And I think that’s why you’ve seen sort of branding, making a comeback. Now we’re figuring out that no one’s going to click on anything unless they know who you are, and they trust you. And I think that’s the importance of the brand coming around. Brand storytelling, creativity, content, social, all of this is coming back to becoming the most critical piece to moving forward. It’s the only thing we have left, I think in terms of marketing effectively, and in an authentic manner.

George: I’d love to hear from you, Jason, some more like small-scale stories of like, you know, when you’ve been working with Tyk, or even before, when you were with LinkedIn, and Microsoft, you know, were there specific situations where you had a piece of content and something happened that changed it? And you thought, “Okay, we’ve got to go back and do something else with this.”

Or maybe the opposite, where the other people thought something had to be changed, and you were like, “No, no, no, this has got to stay the same.”

Jason: Here’s the thing. Every piece of content that me or my team has ever created at any org has always been created for a purpose rooted in data, right? So if we put it out there, and it doesn’t perform, we don’t give up, and I think that’s the difference, right?

So, we either change the title, we change the copy, we change the creative. I think you keep going, if you know it’s rooted in data, and you know, there’s an appetite for it, I think you need to give it two or three shots.

So, even at LinkedIn, and even at Tyk, we’ve released the same piece of content two or three times, tweaked it, changed the creative, changed the targeting, changed the approach, changed the format.

So, I do see a lot of marketers just being forced into launching and moving on – if it fails, it fails. And I think anything that you create, anything that you bring your team together to put some blood, sweat, and tears into, you need to give it every opportunity.

I’d say after the third time, maybe if you got it wrong, by the third time…

George: Three strikes and you’re out sort of thing, right?

I guess there’s changes that are sort of internal like, say, if you guys at Tyk decide to release a new product set or something like that, you know, that’s a change that you guys are starting and you know, I guess you’d want to create new content around a new product or solution, you’ve released that type of thing.

And there’s obviously change that gets sort of forced upon you by external factors. So, like your market changes, or like, I don’t know, ChatGPT. Suddenly, everybody thinks it’s going to change how your industry operates, and you’re almost reacting to change that’s happening externally.

Do they hit differently for you as a content marketer? Is there a different approach you would take for those different types of changes?

Jason: I think with every time there’s a change, it’s an opportunity, right? There’s an opportunity to answer the biggest questions, but also be a bit of a thought leader. Again, I think these are words that are tossed around way too loosely. But you know, you answer the questions, and you tie it back to how your platform or your solution can help solve that answer or ease that pain. But the biggest opportunities around getting the experts in your company to form an opinion on what this means for that. Right?

So, what does ChatGPT mean for developers or mean for the API world? You know, we have a very outspoken, very opinionated CEO in Martin Buhr, and James Hirst, our co-founders. And so as soon as we see that, as a content team, we go after the big questions with some blog content, video content. But then we go to our leadership and we say, “What does this mean? People need to know what this means?” And they’re looking for someone to take that conversation and share hopefully some good news, but also some things to be maybe cautious about.

So, I don’t see that enough. And I think that’s the biggest opportunity.

George: If you could share one piece of advice for somebody that was in a situation where they were seeing change and were a bit frightened by it. As a content marketer, you know, if you could give them one tip to kind of change their perspective, what would you say to them?

Jason: I mean, the biggest tip for me when I first heard about AI, and I talk a lot about creativity, AI creativity and it’s something I’ve been talking about quite a bit. Was I concerned? Of course.

But here’s the thing, if you have your network of trusted sort of advisors, right – and I know my go-tos right, they’re the Doug Kesslers, the Jay Acunzos, the Ann Handleys – if you have that in place, and these are the folks that you trust in your feed, and that you go to these folks, and this is, again, goes back to that opportunity of that opinion, what does this all mean by a trusted leader who’s got the expertise?

If you have that in place, and you do your own research on the side, those two coming together will alleviate any sort of anxiety or challenge because you have the trusted advisors and you have your own research, and you can form your own opinion.

The part that frightens me is that people just take these text-based posts at face value because they’ve gotten 600 shares or whatever, and they don’t look at where it’s coming from, and they don’t look at the intent on where it’s coming from. Right?

Again, and this goes back to every good marketer, every good content marketer every like, even as a photographer as a creative, who are your 10 to 12 sources, that you have an individual feed or you subscribe to the newsletters, and these are the ones that you trust in, believe in, that you’ve built up over time. There’s always some new ones coming in, but just see where they’re coming from. And make sure that they’re coming from a place of good intent, and not trying to take advantage of the situation, right?

So, it’s your responsibility – there’s no shortage of experts and opinions out there, it’s how you curate them, and how you build trust or trust those folks to keep you in a good place.

George: Thanks, Jason, for your insightful response to a very tricky question. It’s interesting to hear that yes, there are plenty of ways savvy marketers can create content that stands the test of time, and resists change.

So, Diane, what stood out for you there?

Diane: Yeah, I think it was a really great answer, actually. There were a few different parts that stood out to me.

One, the key thing about having, big rock content, right? And also this idea of, if you have evergreen content that you can just slap a fresh coat of paint on.

I think that’s a really great place to start. Because when it comes to content, there’s a lot of talk about creation, and not as much talk about repurposing, re-igniting, I guess, redistributing, looking at one piece that you have, and actually looking for different angles, different points of views, different ways to share them, and kind of elaborate on those.

So, I think that that was a really great place to start in probably the same place, I would have started with my answer as well.

George: Yeah, absolutely. I think it ties in with something he said at the end, that actually really stood out for me, which is: if you know an idea is good, you kind of need to give it a few tries. He mentioned this idea of like he might try something two or three times and you know, you might put it out there and it doesn’t get the engagement you expect. But you know, the idea is good.

So you’ve tweaked the PPC adverts that link through to whatever piece you’ve produced something like that, you tweak a few things and give it another try, because you kind of have that confidence in it.

And, I think that kind of goes back to what you were saying about, you know, almost you can give something a new lease of life by repackaging it and give it that second chance that it might deserve to kind of actually break through and well, go viral – I say in sort of quotation marks – as much as anything in B2B goes viral.

I’m curious about how you felt when I was interviewing Jason. I almost hoped we were doing good justice to Kate’s question, because I think it’s such an interesting idea of all these different forms of change. But I kind of love that Jason almost just took it to a different angle and was like, “You know, what, don’t worry about change. What’s evergreen is you need to tell a good story.” Like, “Forget about change, don’t worry about that. You’ve got to focus on making your content just really good to read.”

And so I thought it was quite an interesting way to tackle that and think about, you know, becoming better storytellers. And how hard that is. I mean, well, it resonated with me from a writing perspective. I don’t know how you felt about that, Diane.

Diane: Yeah, I do think that was a really great point as well. And I think that coming from that angle, it’s almost like kind of “Disregard the idea of change. So, I know that’s your question, but let’s put it to the side for a minute.”

And really thinking about not just the quality and actually really great storytelling, but one thing that I think is incredibly important is this idea of having a strong point of view at the core of thought leadership, which is a phrase that gets thrown around a lot. And it’s like, well, the phrase does begin with “thought”. So you do have to have a really strong thought on something and some kind of opinion.

And, you know, it doesn’t always have to be based around change, I think that a really interesting way of looking at how you approach content in times of change is, well, all of these trends are happening, and there’s a lot of change happening around you, what are you constant about? And that might also be a different way of looking at things.

I know that in the work that I do with my clients, helping them create a messaging strategy. One of the key things that we work on is, you know, what is your point of view? What is your point of view about the changing landscape and about the industry in which you operate?

Because there’s often a huge shift happening, and your customers and prospects are often coming to you to help them kind of solve a problem. And so, what is it that you stand for? And I think that’s also a really great way of looking at building out evergreen content and different ways to approach that theme or that topic that you can own.

George: Absolutely. It’s really interesting to hear about your experiences from the sort of strategy and messaging side with your own clients, and how these same topics apply really whatever sort of area of the marketing piece you come in from, it all has the same sort of foundational requirements to meet something that’s really good and will stand the test of time.

I’m also wondering, I know this wasn’t necessarily directly what Kate was getting at with the question, but it struck me that, at one point, Jason and I wound up talking quite a bit about ChatGPT. Because you know, I think that the generative AI technology that’s coming in does pose a really fundamental change; maybe one of the biggest changes potentially, we’ve seen for a lot of industries in a long time.

And again, I think the idea that a lot of these technologies, all they can do is sort of repackage things that are already out there and that they’ve been trained on, right?

So, the idea that you can counter that by just having your own unique perspective as a human is quite a sort of empowering way, I think of looking at a new technology that I imagine a lot of marketers are sort of finding a bit scary that this stuff can come out and produce stuff that sounds like real copy.

I don’t know if you’ve sort of had to play around with any of these technologies, Diane, and have your own perspective on that sort of change coming in.

Diane: I think I’m most interested in using AI from a process-oriented perspective to bring operational efficiencies into the way that I work. Definitely, in terms of maybe summarising, synthesising data, and helping me find themes.

But, particularly because a lot of the work that I do is based on the company’s strategy, based on interviewing founders, really kind of human-to-human understanding your perspective and your point of view, and brainstorming and workshopping, and all that kind of stuff. So I’m not too worried about AI from that perspective, but I do see that it can bring a lot of value in other areas.

Jason was talking about, you know, if you’ve got a question, if you’ve got to answer a question, or you’re going to type a question into a search engine, and then kind of spew an answer… If that’s the type of content you’re producing, then you really need to add another layer on top.

George: And I think, you know, Jason made a really good point as well about how that change with generative AI, and also lots of other changes, they do create that sort of opportunity, like you said, to have a unique thought that positions you as a thought leader and leads into thought leadership content.

Speaking of which, one final thing Jason said, that really jumped out to me that I’d love to discuss with you is this idea of him saying that when there’s change happening in your industry, and it’s kind of scary, what do you do? And he suggested turning to these people that you trust, voices in your industry that you know will have a good thought about it.

I’m just wondering, do you have any particular people that you trust as a sort of trusted voice within the industry? What kind of things would you recommend for people looking for those trusted sources of information?

Diane: Yeah, I think this was a really great point. And I think it really depends on your industry, the industry in which you’re operating, and whether you’re looking for voices who operate in that industry, or who have this sort of same role as you. You know, marketers follow marketers, or CEOs and leadership, also following other leaders to hear how kind of how they’re addressing the challenges in their org. Or whether you’re sort of trying to listen to, you know, top voices within tech or AI.

One thing that I think I’ve fallen into the trap of is living in a bit of a vacuum. You know, marketers like to talk to other marketers, and sometimes you go on LinkedIn, and we’re just marketing to each other. And I’m trying to kind of expand my network now and really connect with and follow and listen to podcasts. really out of my realm of expertise, and I think that we don’t talk about that enough.

And so I would perhaps suggest that as well. I want to be up to date on what is happening and so I’m also kind of connecting with and following people on LinkedIn who are kind of top voices in those arenas.

So I would say play around, look through your network, and then sort of branch out. If you’re listening to the same podcasts and reading the same newsletters, I would say ask around beyond your industry and also beyond your role in the org.

George: It’s interesting, what you mentioned about sort of slowly branching out as well because I think when people think about building a network, they think it’s something they can just snap their fingers and have hundreds of people they’ll turn to for trusted information.

But, I know speaking to both you and Jason – people who’ve done all sorts of things in their careers – I imagine it’s a slow process. You slowly start to branch out and see who’s trustworthy, who has the best thoughts about things, who’s covering the latest topics, and you’re building that up piece by piece.

Diane: Listening to or reading thoughts from people who have big followings is great. But bear in mind that often the bigger your following is because you’re sometimes putting out a bit more generic content that is more palatable to the masses. And so I also think it’s worth connecting with – and listening to – underrepresented voices as well.

So, don’t always just go out there and say, “Okay, which are the top 10 marketing leaders, thought leaders, which are the top five marketing podcasts?” Also listen to some of those that are not being spoken about, and that aren’t at the top of everyone’s list, because there are a lot of people doing brilliant things. And I think that diversity of voices and diversity of thought is also incredibly important when it comes to content and improving your own thought process.

George: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. It’s a really great idea.

So, Diane, in the interview with Jason, he had this really interesting idea, this model of big rock content that stays the same; little rock content that doesn’t. And I’m wondering if you’ve had any strategies when you’ve been working with your clients to kind of establish those big rock things that don’t change and kind of still stand up and help you create content, even if things are changing and that content’s still relevant?

Diane: Yeah, it definitely is. I think that this links really nicely to an element that I work on with my clients when helping them build out a messaging strategy. And that’s the concept of having key messaging pillars.

So, if you’re creating key messaging pillars at the company level, so these things that you own in your customers’ minds and your prospects’ minds, a few topics, or themes or ideas that you can completely own and go after, that you want to be remembered for. It makes, obviously, creating content around these things a lot easier. And I think that once you have those as well, it’s easier to kind of stay rooted and stay grounded in one thing, even if there are trends consistently changing.

So I think that we talk a little bit in content about having content pillars, and it’s the same as sort of the messaging in your company strategy – you should also have very clear messaging pillars so that everything that you produce from copy and content is also kind of grounded and revolves around those themes.

George: Before we wrap this episode up, it’s time for our copywriting pro tip.

Voiceover: Copywriting pro tip

Ettie Bailey-King: Constantly ask, “What’s in it for me?” to get in your reader’s mindset.

Diane:  Thanks, Ettie, that’s an amazing piece of advice for writing and probably many other professions as well. I know I use this daily in my work.

George: As do I. Well, with that then, we’ve reached the end of today’s episode. So, Diane, thank you so much for co-hosting again, it’s been a real pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you.

Diane: Thanks for having me. We should also thank Jason Miller for answering our question, Ettie for the pro tip, and of course, Kate Terry for asking the question that prompted today’s episode.

George: Thanks to everyone that contributed to today’s episode. Remember, listener, next time, it could be your question that we answer.

Voiceover: If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email, a voice memo to [email protected]. Or find us on social media.

George: We’ll be back soon for another B2BQ&A. Until then, take it easy and remember change is the only constant although the need for good storytelling is pretty constant too.

Diane and George: Goodbye.

The post B2BQ&A 112: How can B2B content stay consistent when everything changes? appeared first on Radix.

Account-based marketing owes a lot of its power to the way its content can speak to this reader in particular, and address their unique needs. But how much tailoring is too much?

That’s the question we’ll be tackling in this episode of B2BQ&A, on behalf of Rhiannon Blackwell, Account-Based Marketing Leader at PwC.

Specifically, Rhiannon asked:

“How do you strike the right balance between your brand voice and messaging and hyper-relevance with a client, for example, by using their language?”

To answer Rhiannon’s great question, we’re thrilled to welcome two further well-known experts from the world of ABM. Our special interview guest is Andrea Clatworthy, Head of Marketing Transformation in Europe for Fujitsu, while our guest co-host Judy Wilks is International ABM and Executive Content Lead at Autodesk.

Along with Radix’s own David McGuire, we try to get to the bottom of how to show a customer or prospect you really understand them without being, well, creepy.

But wait; there’s more. You’ll also hear an essential copywriting pro tip from Sarah Mullaney, freelance copywriter and content writer, and owner of She’s a Writer.

You’ll find a full transcript of this episode at the end of this post.

It’s important to mimic the language your clients use when they talk about their business. Make sure that everything you say to them, you put in the context of their brand – not your own. According to Andrea: “It could be as simple as just recognising whether a client calls their customers ‘customers’, or ‘consumers’, or even ‘clients’.”

Relevance to the reader is all-important in ABM, but it can be especially tough to find that blend between what your brand wants to say – and how it wants to say it – and what the reader needs to read. As Andrea explains: “Whilst your brand is important to the customer, it’s not the primary thing that they are worrying about.”

With a lot of B2B content, there’s a temptation to show more of your research than you should. But in ABM, the risks of getting it wrong are even greater, so be careful – if you tell your reader things they already know, you’re not going to get very far. And remember, there’s a fine line between “personalised” and “creepy”.

Finding out how your audience consumes information can give you a good indicator of how to deliver your content. “It’s worth the effort to find out if a client is turned on by numbers and graphs,” says Andrea. “Or if they prefer video over written, or they like snackable content rather than long-form. Figuring that out can be really helpful.”

This golden rule holds true for any writing, but if your ABM content can show an understanding of your reader’s business (without telling them their business) you can provoke a powerful response. As Andrea explains: “If you get it right, the reader or, if you like, the consumer of your writing, will have a positive emotional reaction. And they’ll be more likely to share content internally and be your advocate.”

4:01 – David poses Rhiannon Blackwell’s question to Andrea Clatworthy.

15:00 – Co-host Judy Wilks gives her thoughts on Andrea’s insights.

21:58 – Judy and David discuss the fine line between “personalised” and “creepy”.

24:23 – Sarah Mullaney from She’s a Writer shares a copywriting pro tip.

25:05 – David updates us on the search for the best B2B content of all time. Ever.

To get your burning B2B content question answered, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can connect with us on LinkedIn and Twitter: @radixcom.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Rhiannon Blackwell: How do you strike the right balance between your brand voice and messaging and hyper-relevance with a client? For example, by using their language.

Judy Wilks: Well, what a great question from Rhiannon, and something that’s very close to my heart. Let’s ask Andrea Clatworthy of Fujitsu, what she thinks.

David McGuire: Hello, listener, and welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 111.

Judy: Account Based Marketing, or ABM for short, relies on your content talking to a very specific audience about their very specific needs and concerns. But the big question is: how do you balance that with delivering your own messaging and brand voice at the same time?

In a few moments, ABM expert Andrea Clatworthy will answer that very question posed by our friend and colleague, Rhiannon Blackwell of PwC.

Plus, we’ll hear a copywriting pro tip from Sarah Mullaney and get an update on your search for the best B2B content of all time.

David: Before all that, let’s do some introductions.

My name is David McGuire. I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency, and I’m delighted to say that we have another ABM leader as our co-host for this episode. It’s Judy Wilks, International ABM and Executive Content Lead at Autodesk.

Judy, thank you so much for joining us.

Judy: Thank you for having me. I’m very happy to be here.

David: That’s some job title. What does it actually involve?

Judy: That’s a very good question. So, in a nutshell, our team designs and creates content that does two things: content that fuels regional ABM programs and content that fuels global executive engagement within Autodesk.

David: So, from that point of view, as well as Andrea’s viewpoint, which we’ll get in a minute, you’re very well placed to help us answer Rhiannon’s question as well. So, that’s amazing. Thank you so much.

Before we get on to that, though, would you mind performing your first official duty as our co-host and telling the listener how they can get in touch with us?

Judy: Absolutely.

So, listener, if you have any comments or suggestions, you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter: @radixcom. Or, if you want us to answer your question in a future episode, just record a quick voice note and send it in by email: [email protected].

David: That’s amazing. Thank you.

Judy: Now it’s time for our B2B Q&A for this episode. It comes from someone I know well from the ABM circuit; it’s PwC’s ABM leader for global marketing, Rhiannon Blackwell.

Rhiannon: How do you strike the right balance between your brand voice and messaging and hyper-relevance with a client – for example, by using their language,

David: Thanks, Rhiannon. It feels like we have a lot of ABM experts on the show today, which is great, because this really is an important question.

Relevance to the reader is all-important in ABM. When we’re writing ABM content, it can be especially tough to find that blend between what the brand wants to say and how it wants to say it, and what the reader needs to read.

So, how can you strike that balance? Well, I asked Fujitsu’s Head of Marketing Transformation in Europe and long-time ABM evangelist, Andrea Clatworthy. And I started by asking her Rhiannon’s question: just how do you balance client relevance and brand voice?

Andrea Clatworthy: This is such a great question. And it’s not an uncommon one.

It’s like a “depends” answer, which is never a good one, but I think it’s right to find the balance. And so thinking about it depends. For instance, if what you’re trying to do with your customer is perhaps reposition yourself, then you probably want to dial down your brand a little bit – without breaking the rules – and use more of the customer’s voice.

If perhaps it’s a new customer, or it’s new territory for you and you’re trying to break in, then perhaps you want to dial up your brand whilst recognising their voice. So it’s a really fine line.

And I find what we try and do when we’re creating the story and the narrative and the value proposition, we’re thinking all the time about what’s important to the customer. And whilst your brand is important to the customer, it’s not the primary thing that they’re worrying about. I would edge towards dialling it down just a little bit, but don’t break the guidelines.

I think it’s really important not to break your brand guidelines because they’re there for a reason. But you can stretch them. And you can take some liberties… perhaps.

Having said that, sometimes it’s appropriate to use some of the branding elements that your customer might have. So perhaps they’ve got an imagery style that you want to mimic rather than be 100% them.

Or it depends on what the communication is that you’re going to be providing. So, supposing it’s in the form of an infographic or something, as part of a conversation, and you want, you expect, and you’d love them to then use that asset, that you’ve created for them, with their stakeholders in their company, as part of their business case process if you like. Then you might want to make it slightly more their brand.

So, even though it looks like yours, and you’re suggesting this awesome thing, it’s easier for them to reuse that asset.

David: And that makes their life easier and turns them into kind of a representative of you. And I guess that goes for both brand elements, design-wise, but then also if they have a particular vocabulary, like a particular way of talking about a subject or an issue.

Andrea: Yes, there might be a project name that they use, or it could be as simple as just recognising whether they call their customers “customers”, or “clients”, or “consumers”? So, use the language that they use when they talk about their business.

David: Is there a chance, though, that a writer working on ABM Content could almost be too keen to show how much research they’ve done? And end up either telling the reader something they already know? Or just being a bit creepy?

Andrea: Yeah, that creepy thing is spot on, isn’t it? And actually, it’s relatively easy to get it wrong and I’ll give you an example of somebody pitching to me.

So, I’m a gamer. And somebody came in to see me, I reached out to them and said, you know, tell me stuff about your proposition. And they came to me, and they’ve ABMed and done everything personalised and tailored to me, which is great. And they focused on this gamer aspect. And I like a particular type of game, but they pitched to me using first-person fighter game, and they’re not the sorts of games that I like.

So they got the gaming bit, right, but they got the type of gaming bit wrong. So instantly, I’m kind of like: this is a bit creepy, and it’s wrong. So I gave them that feedback, you know, say thanks ever so much. It was so nearly right but made it completely wrong.

So using that research correctly is a trick there.

David: And I guess that must be easier – or maybe riskier – if you’re writing to accounts that you know well.

Andrea: If it’s an existing account, it’s much easier to get that balance right, because you know them and you’re in dialogue all the time, and you know completely what you’re doing. And the marketing part of that ongoing engagement will be reflective of the conversations that the account team or whoever is having.

So it’s much easier to get that right; it’s much harder when you don’t really know who you’re talking to. Then you probably edge a bit more on your brand, but reflect the language that you know that they use.

David: And when you’re doing your research in that case, and you’re thinking about the challenges they’re facing, and how your products and solutions can match that, how much are you thinking about the position that the company’s in? And how much are you thinking about the individual role? Like, are you thinking, “Oh, this is a company in the retail sector,” or are you thinking, “This is a CTO,” or whatever?

Andrea: It’s a bit of both to be quite honest. And then a bit contextual.

A company in the retail sector might be in growth mode, or they might be in massive reduction mode, as we’re seeing happening across the piece, they’re just reflecting where they are, because the language that you use might be slightly different.

If they’re in growth mode, and they’re being really prosperous, then they’re going to have a slightly different outlook on any future investments that they’re going to make, compared to if they need to reduce in one shape or form whether that’s people, or stores, or whatever. So it is both.

That persona piece is important too. So if it’s a CTO, then you know, there’s loads of work on personas and I think most people are probably reasonably comfortable with those.

But, then if you know who that CTO is, as a human being, then picking up on some of those things is equally important if you can get it right.

So I think that there are a few bits to this. There’s a bit about emotion. If you get it right, the reader, if you like the consumer of your writing, copy, assets – whatever it is – they have a positive emotional reaction, hopefully. And then they’re more likely to continue the conversation or, you know, share internally, and be your advocate. So, that’s a very clear signal.

David: I’m interested in the emotional response. What kind of response is that? Is that kind of a relief at feeling seen; that someone is recognising what they’re struggling with? Is it kind of delight and surprise, like, what sort of emotions are you seeing from the best content that you send?

Andrea: Yeah, those ones, and “relief” is a great word. Because actually, if you get the personalisation bit right, and what you’re suggesting you can help them with is right as well, then that’s the combo, because what you want people to do is to choose you above everybody else.

So, if you’ve delivered those messages correctly, you can kind of get a sense that these people get me and I can see how we could work together. And they’re going to solve a business problem one way, shape, or form, whatever that might be, with me when I choose to work with them.

So, it’s a bit of euphoria as well, I guess,

David: It’s not adding on something to make them feel emotional. It’s actually listening and thinking about what they really need, and then expressing that in a really kind of clear and impactful way.

Andrea: I think you’re spot on. That listening piece is really important, isn’t it? If you think about the old elephant adage: two big ears so do the listening first. If you get that right, then it can really help.

Now, how do you listen? That would be the next question.

We can read stuff, right? But quite often, if you’ve got an account team in with that account, they’re really getting to know those people, that person. So that they’re your primary source of that first-party insight if you like. It’s really important to include them in the process that you’re going through to create whatever it is you’re creating.

David: Okay, so we’ve thought about the branding, the voice, the vocabulary, and the kind of messaging that you’re aiming to deliver to make that connection. What else is important in ABM content that really works?

Andrea: Great question, again. I think it’s worth considering the format of the content that you’re going to be delivering.

Understanding how people consume information can give you a really good indicator of how to deliver that content. So, if somebody is very much numbers based, then think about making sure that there’s numbers and perhaps graphs.

If somebody likes to consume video over written, or perhaps they like snackable content rather than long form, and then working some of that out can be really helpful.

And clearly, you want to use omnichannel anyway. Don’t just rely on one thing.

There are some little things you can do. So you can use some DiSC profiling, for example, which will give you an indicator of the type of behaviours and brain workings, to use a non-technical term, that could determine how people like to consume information. So that’s quite a good starting point.

David: It’s really thinking about the individual and what they need, really in a kind of 360 way.

Andrea: Yeah, absolutely. And, we know, don’t we, as good marketeers, that different content and content formats work better at different stages of the customer journey. So, building that in as well to your comms plan is a good thing to do.

David: That’s amazing. Thank you.

So if the listener wants to find out more and really dive into the subject of creating really good ABM content, where do you suggest they go for more information?

Andrea: A really good starting point is a bit of reading. There’s a really great book by Bev Burgess called A Practitioner’s Guide to ABM. And it is a practitioner’s guide, so that’s a great place to start.

I’d also recommend reaching out to organisations like yourself, David.

David: [Laughs] Thank you very much; the cheque’s in the post

Thanks, Andrea, that’s great. It’s so helpful to know there’s no one right answer; you can dial your brand voice up and down – depending on the job your content needs to do.

Judy, what stood out for you there as an ABM leader?

Judy: Well, actually, “everything” is one answer. There was such a lot of great stuff in there and like a topic that I could talk about till the cows come home.

But there were two key things that Andrea said that I think are kind of foundational.

And number one is: never break the brand rules. That’s just a good starting point for any ABM. Not your brand rules, nor the client’s brand rules.

And then moving on, I pulled out this quote, and I wrote it down and I’m going to read it because I think it’s really essential to ABM.

Andrea said, “Whilst your brand is important to the customer, it’s not the primary thing that they are worrying about.” And that’s just absolutely crucial, you know. It’s a nice way of saying the customer doesn’t care about you or your brand. You have to make sure that everything you say to them, you put in the context of their business.

So what that means with getting that balance right between your brand and voice and theirs, is that if you, if your piece, either visually or stylistically shouts your brand, you’re actually not going to get your point across because your point in ABM is always: I understand your business. And if you’re shouting your brand, you’re not going to get that point across. So you need to think about that.

But, at the same time, it’s really powerful when you get it right that you can show the synergies between two brands.

David: So is it more complicated than the way the content sounds, the way the content looks, the vocabulary you choose, the register you write in, are maybe led by your brand, so that it’s recognisable, but the content, the stuff that you write about, the messaging, that kind of stuff is led by their priorities?

So maybe the content is about them, but the branding and the voice are about you? Or is it more nuanced than that?

Judy: I think that is your starting point. And then it depends.

I think you can look at it like a continuum. Absolutely, the content will always 100% be about them. That’s the starting point. But the continuum is then how much do you kind of shift the brand, the tone, the voice, the vocabulary, to reflect the customer, as well?

And that will depend on a couple of things. It will depend on: what is your level of awareness with that customer already, and what is the level of the relationship?

If, as Andrea said, you need to establish awareness with the customer, then you’re probably going to want to lean more towards your brand. But, if you’re at the partnership stage, then you might want to show how the two brands work together, so you really visually and stylistically get that partnership message across.

David: Yeah, and I guess, all of this with the proviso that when you talk about the vocabulary that you use, any specific terminology should be their terminology. So if they call their customers “clients”, or they call their customers “members”, for example, or if they have certain initiatives that they have their own language for, then you should absolutely adopt that rather than trying to impose your terminology on top of something that they would recognise.

Judy: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I don’t really have anything to add to that. I 100% agree.

David: With a lot of B2B content generally, there’s always a temptation, when you’ve done your research, to show maybe more of that research than you should and end up telling the reader things that they already know, to kind of show off how much you know.

I guess that’s an even stronger temptation, in ABM, given how much you will know about your particular audience, right?

Judy: Yeah. And this is a podcast so you couldn’t see me smiling then. But yes, absolutely. That is a real danger because as you say, you do a lot of research into the company and their business and you know a lot about them. And it’s ABM, so you really want to show them we understand your business. But if you just tell them what they already know about their business, you’re not going to get very far.

So I apply the adage here that you don’t tell someone you’re funny, you make them laugh. It’s the same thing: you don’t tell them everything you know about their business, you show that you understand their business by the recommendations that you make in the content.

And, let’s face it, you’re never going to know their business as well as they do. But the value that you bring is that you are an outside perspective. So you show them you understand their business, by adding that outside perspective to what you know about them – and perhaps sending them something they hadn’t thought of before.

David: Yeah, it’s the same thing as when I’m training copywriters in general how to do this stuff. OK, you’ve got this knowledge about them. So what?

So it’s not, you know, “Ah, this company has workforces on three different continents” or whatever it is, it’s “Because you have a workforce on three continents, you will need to handle time zones in this way or handle collaboration – and here’s a way that we can help you with that.”

Like, we’ve done the thinking around the “so what?” about the information that we have – we’re not just parroting back the information.

I think that’s obviously all the more important in ABM, and I think in any B2B content, that’s useful.

Judy: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, in any content, the more you talk about the customer, and the more you show an understanding of their business – without telling them their business – then it’s going to be more powerful. So yes, that is exactly it.

Which takes thinking. It’s one thing to have a load of data, it’s another thing to then analyse that data. So, suddenly the writer is not just a writer, you know, the writer is suddenly an ABM strategist as well.

And, I always say, “Writing is thinking.” It’s not just about putting words on a page, you’ve got to have those thoughts first before you can then articulate them nicely on a page.

David: Yeah. Do you have any advice on how much of your research it’s even okay to show before you start to kind of worry them that you’re getting a bit creepy?

Judy: Well, now we’re talking about talking to the individual, and as well as talking to the company. And, the topic of creepy personalisation, as I often call it, comes up a lot in ABM. And, I think one good standard is to think: how would I feel if it happened to me?

So, for example, on my Twitter profile, I probably say I’m a cat fancier. But if someone gave a business presentation, and it had cats all over it and used cat analogies, or gifs… is that going to make me like them more?

David: Of course it is! Be honest…

Judy: All right, well, even if you take cats out of the equation, you know, that’s creepy. And we come back to what is the one key word that sums up ABM? It’s relevance. Are cats relevant to that conversation? No, they’re not.

I think it’s much more powerful, if yes, you do your homework about that person, but you also try and understand their values. What are their motivations? What’s their personality type?

So, don’t just kind of look at what they do out of work, “Oh, David plays golf, let’s put some golf analogies in here.” That’s not relevant.

But, if you understand their motivations and the type of person they are, then you can tailor the content in the right way. So for example, if I think of myself as a bit of a change agent – and typically, I’ll have plastered that all over LinkedIn – it won’t be very difficult to find. If I’m that type of person, then you need to position whatever you’re proposing as some bold, exciting, disruptive move.

That’s much more powerful than putting some images of cats or golf into your content.

David: Before we finish this episode, there are a couple more things we need to do. First, it’s time for our copywriting pro tip.

Voiceover: Copywriting pro tip.

Sarah Mullaney: My name is Sarah Mullaney, from She’s a Writer, and my B2B copywriting tip is to have core materials about the values or proof points of the client within reach when you’re writing about them.

You can use these to focus less on what services or solutions the clients are offering and keep bringing the copy back to why the client is a leader in their field and why their customers continue to use them.

This will help you to get into the mind of the reader writing the most purposeful and benefit-driven B2B copy for them.

Judy: Thanks, Sarah. That sounds like a really useful tip for making sure that you can stay on track during the day.

So, David, I gather that you have something to ask the listener.

David: Yeah, I do… To mark the 10th anniversary of this podcast, we’re continuing our search for the best B2B content of all time.

Now, in particular, we’d like the listeners’ help finding the best blog posts, case studies, and web content. There’s so much to choose from out there, it’d be really helpful if anyone could tell us where to focus our search.

All you need to do is to jot down one or two of your favourites and email them to us at [email protected]. Or just fire them at us on LinkedIn or Twitter.

Anyway, Judy, thank you so much for co-hosting. It’s been so much fun to do this with you. I wish we had more time.

Judy: I know. Well, I’ve already said I could talk about this topic forever. So, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity.

And I guess while we’re at it, we should thank everybody else that’s been involved in this episode.

So, in no particular order, thank you, first of all, to Andrea Clatworthy, for answering the really great question. Thank you to Sarah Mullaney for the pro tip. And lastly, thank you to Rhiannon Blackwell for asking the question in the first place.

David: Rhiannon, I hope you feel that we have done you justice.

Remember listener, it could be your question we answer in a future episode.

Voiceover: If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email a voice memo to [email protected]. Or find us on social media.

David: We’ll be back soon for another B2BQ&A.

Until then, make great content. And remember: a writer only begins the content; it’s the reader who finishes it. Well, either them or that stakeholder who won’t sign it off anyway.

David and Judy: Goodbye.

The post B2BQ&A 111: How can ABM content balance relevance and brand voice? appeared first on Radix.

Researching keywords is relatively easy in a popular B2C market – where data is plentiful and vocabulary is simple. But how do you find search intent in the rarefied world of B2B tech? That’s what Emily King from Bluefruit Software wants to know:

“It’s one thing to know what you call your product or service, but it’s another to know what your potential audience is actually using in their searches. So how do you find this out?”

Such an important question needs a very special guest… so we went straight to the top: Andy Crestodina from Orbit Media. Andy literally wrote the book on SEO and content marketing, and we’re thrilled to have him on the podcast.

And we don’t just have Andy’s sage advice for you. In this month’s episode, we’re joined by guest co-host Ruth Connor, Content Marketing Specialist at B2B Marketing and Propolis. You’ll also hear a copywriting pro tip from UX writer Fiorella Rizzà, and there’s news of an exciting challenge to mark the 10th anniversary of this podcast.

You’ll find a full transcript of this episode at the end of this post.

Writing for smaller companies that focus on niche B2B tech has opportunities in search that some of the bigger companies might miss.

Andy explains: “If you don’t have super-high domain authority, that’s a benefit because it pushes you towards key phrases that are less popular – but much more targeted. The niche is where the fun is: you can find phrases that a small number of people are searching for, but they’re thrilled when they find you. The click-through and conversion rates are high. It’s an enormous opportunity.

Andy recommends targeting the key phrases that indicate strong commercial or transaction intent – the person who has their wallet out, but just needs a bit of help.

“Start by optimising your homepage,” he advises. “That’s the page for which you have the best chance of ranking. Next, optimise your service pages. Those pages have strong intent; the visitor is looking for help – they need a service or a product.”

Andy suggests the ultimate source of keywords is your own audience.

“If you get asked the same question two or three times you should be answering that question in your content,” he says. “We listen out for the topics that our audience really, really cares about. We put plans in place to publish on those topics. And then, as we’re publishing, we look for keyword opportunities.”

The number of searches for which the click-through rate is zero keeps growing because Google’s Featured Snippets are so informative.

According to Andy: “We should all be looking for opportunities to write content that is keyword focused, but also where the answer to the question is deep and long with details.”

The days of fooling search engines with low-quality filler content are long gone. “You’re not doing SEO if you’re not sincerely trying to make one of the top 10 pages on the internet,” Andy proposes. “You have no right to rank if you made another medium-quality piece.”

“But also, as you do this, don’t forget to inject your own voice; say something that’s provocative or counterintuitive. Put people into your articles and include contributor quotes from people with interesting ideas.”

1:59 – Ruth Connor explains why the BBC is a role model for content atomisation

5:11 – David McGuire poses Emily King’s question to Andy Crestodina

13:54 – Ruth and David discuss personas and the importance of talking to customers

23:49 – UX writer Fiorelli Rizzà shares a copywriting pro tip

24:15 – David McGuire announces a new challenge to mark our 10th anniversary

To get your burning B2B content questions answered, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on LinkedIn, or Twitter @radixcom.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Emily King: It’s one thing to know what you call your product or service, but it’s another to know what your potential audience is actually using in their searches. So how do you find this out?

Ruth Connor: That’s a brilliant question. Let’s ask Andy Crestodina from Orbit Media.

David McGuire: Hello listener, and welcome back to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. We’re back for a new season, and this is Episode 110.

Ruth: Wow, Episode 110. That feels pretty special.

David: 10 years.

Ruth: That’s incredible. That’s incredible. Well, in a few moments, we’re gonna hear from Andy Crestodina, the CMO and co-founder of Orbit Media studios, and all-round B2B SEO colossus. He’ll take a stab at answering this episode’s question: “Just how can you find the right keywords when you’re working in a super geeky B2B niche?” Or nitch as Americans would say.

David: They do, they do.

Ruth: Plus we’ll hear a copywriting pro tip from Content Designer and UX writer Fiorella Rizzà and we’ll reveal details of a new search to find the best B2B content of all time.

David: Before all that though: Who are we? Well, my name is David McGuire. I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, a B2B writing agency. And our guest co-host for this episode, I’m delighted to say, is a consultant, B2B tech marketing director, and the resident content marketing expert and trainer for B2B Marketing and Propolis. It’s Ruth Connor! Ruth, welcome.

Ruth: Thank you very much, David, I’m really delighted to be here.

David: As a content marketing expert yourself, where do you find inspiration for content marketing?

Ruth: That’s a great question. And this is something I used to talk a lot about with my team. And we’d always look to actually the BBC and shows like Strictly Come Dancing, Line of Duty, and, more recently, Happy Valley. And that’s because I think the team at the Beeb do a great job of something I’m really passionate about when it comes to content marketing – which is recycling, reusing, and repurposing.

So, taking that big piece of hero content and turning it into loads of different spin-off pieces of content. And I think they do a great job in some of those shows. I think you know you’ve kind of cracked the content marketing nutshell when you find people producing their own content because they’re so passionate about those shows. And I think the last few weeks on social media and Happy Valley just shows the strength of the sentiment for those shows.

David: Wow. So if you’re in search of B2B marketing inspiration for your content, look to Happy Valley, look to Strictly and the way that they atomise things. That’s an amazing thought to start us off on this episode.

Before we get on to answering this episode’s question, though, Ruth, would you mind performing your first official duty as co-host, and telling the listener how they can get in touch with us?

Ruth: I’d love to David. Listener, if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn (radix-communications-ltd) or Twitter (@radixcom).

Or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email to: [email protected].

David: That is perfect. Thank you so much.

Ruth: Now it’s time for the B2BQ&A for this episode. And our question comes from a very familiar voice.

Emily: Hi, B2BQ&A. This is Emily King from Bluefruit Software. I just had a question about how to effectively find out which keywords your target audience is using in their searches.

So, it’s one thing to know what you call your product or service, but it’s another to know what your potential audience is actually calling it and what they’re using in their searches. So, how do you find this out?

David: How lovely to hear from you again, Emily. Listener, in case you didn’t know, Emily actually started this podcast almost exactly 10 years ago. And for that, we’re endlessly grateful.

But anyway, let’s get on with Emily’s question, which speaks to a bigger point. How can you make SEO work for you when you’re dealing with niche B2B audiences and subjects? And do you reach a point where talking to your customers is better than doing digital research?

To answer we have an SEO and content marketing expert whom I’ve wanted to have on the podcast for basically as long as I can remember. Orbit Media CMO, Andy Crestodina publishes such helpful well-researched advice on digital content, I just knew he’d have something interesting to say here.

So I asked him Emily’s question: How can you find the right SEO keywords, when you work in a geeky B2B niche?

Andy Crestodina: If you’re in a B2B niche, especially a small one, you actually have big opportunities in search that some of the bigger companies might miss. So, it’s exciting to do SEO in a micro-niche for B2B. Niche companies tend to be smaller, which means in a way they have a bigger challenge because they don’t have super-high domain authority and difficulty ranking.

That actually is a benefit, it just pushes you towards the less competitive, longer tail, less popular – but also much more targeted – key phrases.

So it’s not a problem that you’re a smaller online player when you’re in a niche, when you’re targeting the more specific phrases, you can’t target the big general phrases. But those phrases are not as valuable as it might seem anyway, because you know less about the visitor; the visitor does not have strong intent.

People who search for single words or the business category, very hard to convert them, because they’re less likely to have a specific need to look for a specific answer to need a specific service.

So the niche is really where all the fun is, in B2B keyword research. You can find phrases that a small number of people are searching for, but they’re thrilled when they find you. The click-through rates are high, the conversion rates are high. So, it’s an enormous opportunity.

And it’s something that the big companies will often miss. So there’s plenty of blue ocean in those longer three-, four-, or five-word key phrases that others fail to catch or to target, and that you can really target and win what might just be a trickle of traffic, but they’re very passionate, very engaged visitors.

David: How hard is it to find out among that ocean of key phrases, which are the ones that your audience, in particular, are really interested in?

Andy: Every key phrase equals intent. So when you think about the true story in the life of the person who just typed that on their keyboard – and it’s happening right now, as we speak all over the world – the more specific the key phrase, the more you know about their information needs.

So if you think about keywords as being intent, you can target key phrases and therefore intent, that is at different stages in the person’s process, as they consider options. Some key phrases are simply information intent queries, they’re looking for an answer, they want to solve their problem themselves. They’re not at all interested in buying or becoming a lead event for anything.

Other key phrases indicate strong commercial or transaction intent. They’ve got their wallet out there ready to go, they know they need help, they’ve given up on every other option they need, they need help, they’re raising their hand, they need a service. So I would always prioritise beginning your keyword research and content, content marketing and conversion, copywriting and SEO, with the bottom of the funnel.

Start by targeting the key phrases that indicate the person really needs help. And those are generally going to be not content marketing; typically, they’re like service pages. Start by optimizing your homepage, as that’s the page for which you have the best chance of ranking.

Next, optimize your service pages. Those pages have strong intent, the visitor is looking for help they know they need, they need a service or a product. The problem with using software and tools to do your keyword research for you is that they don’t really know or care what your audience is looking for. They don’t know you; they don’t know them.

Sometimes, what you might think of as a blockbuster key phrase, like “Hey, we rank really high for this, you know, ‘What is the sales tax in this geography?’” Like, great, that person just wanted a quick answer. They’re never going to convert, they’re never going to convert!

David: And is there a role for maybe interviewing or talking to real customers, or maybe even talking to your salespeople to get a view of the questions that real people ask, and how they kind of map to intent?

Andy: The ultimate source of keywords is your audience. And there’s lots of ways to get that. One of them is, of course, talking to people. And if you get asked the same question two or three times you should be answering that question in your content.

But when I do that – and when we all do that (and we all should) – search is not your primary concern. Because once you write this article, you can literally send it to exactly the person who asked you the question.

Who needs Google? – you’re already talking to this person.

So, what we should do is listen for the topics that our audience really, really cares about. Put plans in place to publish on those topics. And then as we’re publishing look for keyword opportunities.

Some will have keyword opportunities; some will not have keyword opportunities. If you write the thing that your audience really loves and wants and you give it to them, but there wasn’t a keyword related to it, you can publish it an adjacent topic that does add the keyword that links to this great piece you made. But yes, I think empathy is the ultimate marketing skill.

There’s other sources of empathy, such as if you have a site search tool, and people are searching for a phrase – that’s a source of empathy. And then sometimes, of course, the keyword research tools, and Google itself will tell you what people are looking for related to your topic or your industry works like a charm.

David: Are there other opportunities or trends with search at the moment that are particularly relevant to B2B tech?

Andy: Well, there’s a risk and a threat in search right now that we should all be aware of, which is, as I alluded to a minute ago, none of us should be targeting phrases for which there’s just a short, simple answer.

The number of searches for which the click-through rate is zero keeps growing because Google gets more informative on its own platform. So we should all be looking for opportunities to write content that is yes, keyword focused, but also, the answer to the question the visitor is asking is deep and long with details, because Google’s search results are so informative. Click-through rates to websites are on the decline.

So, target key phrases which give up the I. Remember years ago, we used to publish glossaries? Remember this SEO strategy? We’re like, “Oh, I’ll make a big glossary and answer, you know, tell everyone with the top…” No, that doesn’t work at all anymore. No traffic at all.

So, target key phrases for which the best answer is very long and detailed and 2000 words and you can’t get it in a Featured Snippet.

David: Any final tips for the audience of B2B tech marketers when they’re thinking about keyword research or optimising their content? While we have a world expert with us, the audience would be upset with me if I didn’t ask.

Andy: The ultimate in the best advice is: when you’re publishing a piece of content related to a search, that you literally make a sincere attempt to create the best page on the internet for that topic.

You’re not doing SEO if you’re not sincerely trying to make one of the top 10 pages on the internet. You have no right to rank if you made another medium-quality piece.

But also, as you do this, don’t forget to inject your own voice; say something that’s provocative or counterintuitive. Inject it into this keyword-focused piece that’s going to touch on all the related topics and semantic SEO and subheads and detail, but put yourself in there and throw in some strong points of view.

Search is, of course, library science. It’s an information retrieval technology. But your reader has a brain with an amygdala and can feel emotion.

So if you want to be memorable, and not just a lovely Wikipedia for your industry, then don’t forget that some of the best results from digital come from differentiated voices, strong points of view, Op-Ed. You know, the counterintuitive prediction or perspective of voice. Put people into your articles and include contributor quotes from people with interesting ideas.

Don’t just rank high, be interesting – and have fun.

David: Andy, thank you so much. If the audience want to hear more from you, more of your points of view and your wisdom, where can they best find you?

Andy: I write an article every two weeks at orbitmedia.com. So orbitmedia.com/blog is where you find the main source of my stuff. I put it all together into a book called Content Chemistry.

And also LinkedIn would be my best social media platform. You can connect with me on LinkedIn. The blue button that says Follow? You can skip that and go down to Connect. You know how that works. But yeah, anyone’s welcome to reach out anytime. I’m happy to help however I can.

David: Thanks, Andy. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard so much clear, valuable advice in just a few minutes.

Ruth, you’re an experienced marketing leader, as well as a content marketing expert in your own right. You must have enjoyed that, right?

Ruth: I thought it was great. I thought it was super helpful. And I think what really kind of my takeaway is: when you’re working in a niche tech sector, some of the more generic pieces of advice you get around keyword research just aren’t that helpful, because they don’t cut the mustard for the space you work in.

But Andy got straight to the point of giving us some really helpful pointers as to how we could get started.

One of the things I do think we should also mention, though, is first off Andy talks about both the fun and opportunity for those B2B marketers working in niche tech sectors. And truthfully everybody needs fun and opportunity in their role. So I thought that was a great starting point from Andy.

David: Yeah, absolutely. And as a marketer yourself, do you find it difficult to know, kind of search terms, and use the research as a starting point for good content? Where do you go to?

Ruth: That’s a great question, and I always start with the customer.

Because I really believe that nothing interesting happens in the office. And what I mean by that is marketing teams need to get out there and speak to their customers, speak to their client-facing colleagues, to maybe sit in on meetings, go to trade shows with them, ask the Client Advisory Board, ask the user group, wherever you can get in front of customers, and get a real sense of how they talk about the challenges or pain points or issues that they face in to really understand the language that they use.

I’m picking up on something that Andy mentioned, I also feel that those conversations and those bits of insights really give you the topics that your audience is passionate about and care about. And I think there’s a lot to be said, for producing really helpful content. And I think if you start by listening to what the customer has got to say, tap into the knowledge and insight of your client-facing teams, really unearth these topics that you can tell the audience care about, I really believe when you come to publication, just like Andy said, you can add in the keywords, you can make it a bit more SEO friendly during the publication stage, but it’s all got to start with some customer insight for me.

David: Yeah, and I love that about going to trade shows! I was here like, the listener can’t see, but I was here with my hands in the air like preach, you know, like, just as a younger marketer and a younger copywriter, working on trade shows, even if I wasn’t doing the selling just supporting was so helpful, because I got to hear the conversations that were happening.

And I suppose from that point of view, it’s not either/or, it’s both/and when you work in such a niche market. It’s using those conversations and what you can glean can help you understand where the search intent is in the keyword report and understand what the keyword report means.

And then the other way around, the keyword report can help you understand the language that people are using to address the problems and the questions and the issues that you’ve heard them talk about, whether it’s on a trade show, or writing case studies is another one that I love, because you get to talk to a customer about their thing, and about their challenge and about their world. Like every case study makes me a better writer.

Ruth: Definitely. And you know, David, I think what you’ve just said picks up on something Andy mentioned as well about every key phrase equals intent, and how you’ve got different key phrases at different stages of the customer journey.

So, for example, if somebody’s right at the start of their customer journey, as content marketers, we tend to focus on producing what we call TOFU content. But this is the kind of content that needs to talk about pain points, challenges, questions – those are the kinds of things we need to be thinking of when we’re thinking about our key phrases and our keywords.

If you’re producing middle-of-the-funnel content, rather, I think that’s when we need to see things that relate more to the solutions that somebody might be searching for.

And then when you get to the bottom of the funnel, that’s where it could be more product focus keywords.

So I think Andy made a really good point about thinking around this premise of every phrase equals intent. And those phrases change depending on where somebody is in their journey.

David: I was interested in what Andy had to say about zero search queries and how that changes the nature of the content that people are producing. Is that something that you see?

Ruth: Actually, I hadn’t really thought about this until I heard this in Andy’s advice. And that got me really thinking about that. And that’s something that I’m definitely going to go away and consider a bit more.

David: Yeah, although AI might change it all, again. If, soon enough, ChatGPT gets pulled into Bing, if Google sorts out Bard, you know, you might have these chatbots answering the questions, instead of a list of search results, perhaps.

Ruth: Yeah, that’s true. Actually hadn’t really thought about it from that context. So that’s really insightful.

David: Anything else that stood out for you?

Ruth: Yeah, one of the things Andy mentioned was about the idea of starting with the bottom-of-the-funnel content first, so bottom-of-the-funnel keyword research, content marketing to support the bottom-of-the-funnel stage.

And I would always, always advocate this as a starting point because, ultimately, a very small number of your target audience are active in the market at any one point in time. And I think you need to be if you’re starting out on your content marketing strategy, or you’re revisiting your content marketing strategy, you will always want to prioritise the most commercial-focused activities first, in my opinion.

I think it wins you friends with the sales team. I think it buys you goodwill from your superiors and your stakeholders to then move back up through the funnel to the different stages. So 100% agree with Andy’s point around starting with the bottom-of-the-funnel content first and then working out through the other layers. So you get, you know, to the top of the funnel.

So yeah, 100% agree with that point.

David: Absolutely. You know, I think when content marketing first became an approach, it was so new and so different, everyone almost kind of the product marketing almost became a dirty word. You know, because that wasn’t what content marketing was about.

But, sometimes, the most helpful thing you can write is about your product for someone who’s at that stage of their buying journey. And absolutely, it needs to be included.

Ruth: What do you think about the persona perspective, in this context, in the sense of Andy talks a lot about mapping it to different stages of the customer journey?

But I also wonder if there’s a case for mapping it to different personas in your buying unit. So you know, for example, you might have a C-suite persona, but then you also might have an end-user persona.

And I guess the same would be true, as the customer journey point too, you probably need to think about the personas that you’re writing for, and think about their journeys that they might go on. So your keywords might be different for the C-suite part of your DMU versus the kind of hands-on end-user DMU.

Or are personas old hat, in your experience now? Have people moved on from them?

David: I don’t know, I must admit, I kind of like an avatar more than a persona, for me.

Ruth: Tell me a bit more about that.

David: I’m fortunate in my career to have had enough lives and to have known enough people and enough clients and whatever, that for most sort of what you might call a persona for most job roles, challenges that people are facing, I can normally think of someone that sort of works in that job.

So I can normally write to a person that I have in mind, rather than a persona. And it’s just a bit more, a bit more real.

And it comes back to the point that you were making right at the beginning around getting out to trade shows and meeting people, you know. Doing case studies, interviews, whatever you can do to meet the customer because you might well meet people that map to those personas and makes that more three-dimensional for you. So you can get from a persona to an avatar. You’re like, “Oh, I’m not, I’m not writing for, you know, the CTO and the automotive sector. I’m writing for Janet.”

Ruth: And I think when you give them a name, and you give them an identity that makes it even more real, and I guess if you can base it on somebody that you’ve actually met in a real-world situation, all the better.

David: Before we finish up this episode, we do have a couple more things to share. First, we have this copywriting pro tip.

Announcer: Copywriting pro tip.

Fiorella Rizzà: Hi, I’m Fiorella Rizzà. I’m a Senior Content Designer. And my writing tip is if you need to read it twice, it’s not good enough.

Ruth: Thanks, Fiorella. It sounds so simple, but it’s so, so effective.

Before we go though, David, I gather you’re looking for some of the best pieces of B2B content ever.

David: Yeah, that’s right. As I mentioned earlier, this is the 10th anniversary of the podcast. So, we thought we’d do something a bit unusual to celebrate. And we’ve set ourselves a challenge to find the best B2B content of all time. I mean, it could be a blog post, a video, ebook, white paper, who knows. But the first stage is: we need to compile a long list of contenders.

So, listener, have a think about content that stuck with you, and please send us a nomination, anything you like on social media, or vote at radix-communications.com.

Speaking of which, Ruth… Do you have a particular favourite you’d like to put forward for the list?

Ruth: I do. You actually, so my favourite piece of content is Vital Stats by Earnest. This got shared with me many moons ago on a content marketing training course at the IDM. And they use this Vital Stats video as an example of a good piece of video content. But as the name suggests, it was also jam-packed with loads of really helpful information around how you could make the case for content marketing in your business. And I went back to the business I was in and I used all the stats in the Vital Stats video to make the case for introducing content marketing in my business at the time.

And frankly, I haven’t looked back.

So, when I went to work in earnest, I actually got to work on I think it was Vital Stats 3, and it was a proper fangirl moment for me, because I loved the first two iterations and now it was my job to help champion Vital Stats 3.

So Vital Stats 1 by Earnest is one of my favourite pieces of content of all time.

David: Amazing. I’m not sure I know it, I think I’ll go and look it up straight away. And we’ll absolutely link to it in the show notes so that the listener can have a have a look, get inspired and send us suggestions of their own as well. Thank you for that.

Ruth, if the listener wants to get in touch with you and chat about content marketing. How can they do that?

Ruth: Oh, you can find me on LinkedIn, drop me a message. I love to have a chat with anybody. Always happy to talk about content marketing and help out wherever I can.

David: Thanks for co-hosting. Also, Ruth, you’re an absolute natural. I do hope you’ve enjoyed it.

Ruth: I’ve had a lot of fun, thank you David for asking me. And I think whilst we’re at it, we should also thank Andy Crestodina for his wisdom and super helpful tips.

And Fiorella Rizzà for that copywriting pro tip because that’s what I think we’ll all remember.

And of course, we must thank Emily King for the question that kicked this whole episode off.

David: Yeah, not to mention kicking off this very podcast. Emily, wherever you are listening. I hope you feel that we’ve done justice to your question.

Remember listener, it could be your question that we answer in a future episode.

Announcer: If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email a voice memo to [email protected]. Or find us on social media.

David: I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then make great content and remember, Google can bring you back 100,000 answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one. I’ve never been shushed by Google though. At least not yet.

The post B2BQ&A 110: How can you find the right SEO keywords for niche B2B content? appeared first on Radix.

After a longer than expected absence from the recording booth, the podcast is back, though not quite in the usual B2BQ&A format. In this episode, we’ve collected our favourite copywriting tips from the past few months.

Imagine a compilation album called Now That’s What I Call Copywriting, featuring freelance writer Matt Binny, Giles Edwards from …Gasp!, Katherine Wildman from Haydn Grey, and copywriter Vikki Ross, as well as contributions from our own in-house writing team.

You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.

A lot of our contributors stressed the importance of getting rid of unnecessary content. From deleting your first sentence to simply using fewer (and shorter) words, brevity is key. Giles from …Gasp! puts it this way: “If you can take a word out and nothing is lost, you should.”

When writing copy, it can be easy to lose track of the brief. When he’s reading through a piece he’s written, Matt pretends he has no prior knowledge and asks himself three questions: “Does it tell me what I need to know? Would I buy it? Am I bored out of my mind?” And always make sure you are using the right tone of voice for the client.

Your copy may be intended for a wide audience, but it’s important to remember that you are only ever writing to one person at a time. Katherine puts it this way: “It’s a conversation between me, and what’s happening in my head, and the reader, and what’s happening in their head. It’s very intimate, and very privileged.”

We’ll be back to a more traditional podcast format in the near future, but until then, thanks for listening.

0:30 – David explains why there hasn’t been a B2BQ&A podcast for a while

2:18 – Radix wordsmith, John, warns against ‘sesquipedalian loquaciousness’

2:52 – Freelance writer, Matt Binny, squeezes four tips into one

3:27 – Giles from …Gasp! tells you to trim the fat

3:38 – Katherine from Haydn Grey suggests you get personal with your reader

4:20 – Matt Godfrey, head of copy at Radix, has his tip spoken by a computer

4:52 – Ben from Radix talks tone of voice

5:30 – Copywriter, Vikki Ross, asks if no copy is really the best copy

6:00 – Radix’s Claire keeps it short and sweet

6:25 – David wraps up

If you have any suggestions for future podcasts, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom

David McGuire:  Hello listener, this is not an episode of B2BQ&A, and for that I can only apologise.

It might have escaped your notice, but we have been somewhat less regular than usual with the podcast lately. I’m sorry about that. Things have been somewhat stretched, to say the least, for various reasons, some of them COVID related. But in short, we’ve had a lot to do with not very many people. So I’ve had to roll my sleeves up, get my back to the wheel, and all of those other cliches. But basically, I’ve had to put the podcast down for a minute and pitch in with the team.

Rest assured we will get back to you as soon as we can with questions on corporate social responsibility, copywriting and how to do that without greenwashing, on writing with SEO keywords appropriately, and frankly, any other questions that you have for us, you can certainly still send them to podcast at radix hyphen communications.com.

I do also have to say that I’m afraid we won’t be running the best content of the year polls this year.  There’s simply no time to get that done in anything like the high standard of quality that we’d like to for you. But hopefully we will run something else along those lines for you soon. So in the meantime, just because I feel bad that we haven’t put any advice and information in your earholes lately, we do have this collection of tips and highlights from guests over the past few months of the show. And I hope that you will find that useful.

John Kerrison: I’m John Kerrison, and I’m a Senior Copywriter at Radix Communications. My copywriting tip is to limit your vocabulary. That sounds like the opposite of what a writer should do. But often you’ll see people who are just starting out try and flex their inner thesaurus and pepper their copy with words you’d never use in conversation.

It’s important to remember that your job isn’t to show off, it’s to make things really clear and engaging for your reader. So as an example, instead of saying my work suffers from sesquipedalian loquaciousness, you can just say I use too many long words.

Matt Binny: Hi Matt Binny here, freelance writer from Falmouth in Cornwall. My copywriting tips are as follows. When I finish writing, I like to let it rest for a while or go make lunch, a cup of tea, probably then another cup of tea, then return with fresh eyes and proof. Always read copy out loud. [It’s] a very common tip for a reason: it’s very, very effective.

I also like to re-read copy as if I was someone with sort of no knowledge on the topic, or the product, or service, and ask a few questions: Does it tell me what I need to know? Would I buy it? Am I bored out of my mind? is always a good one too.

Giles Edwards: Hello, it’s Giles from …Gasp! My tip is: trim the fat. If you can take a word out and nothing is lost, you should.

Katherine Wildman: Hello, this is Katherine from Haydn Grey, and my favourite short copywriting tip is to remember that you’re only ever writing to one person at a time. So it’s never about the collective all of us, some of you, nothing like that. It’s a conversation between me, and what’s happening in my head, and the reader, and what’s happening in their head. One-to-one, very intimate, very privileged. So only ever write to that one person. Thanks for having me.

Katy: Radix’s head of copy, Matt Godfrey, is far too shy to record his actual voice, so we had to get a computer to read his tip for him.

RoboMatt: When you’ve finished writing a piece, delete your first sentence. Too much B2B content opens with unnecessary exposition, especially considering we’re typically writing for an expert audience. So, by deleting your first sentence, or even your first paragraph, there’s a good chance you’ll have a much stronger opening that will hook readers in, rather than telling them stuff they already know.

Ben: My name is Ben and I’m a Copywriter at Radix. For my copywriting tip of the month, I’m going to steal a piece of advice I learned from Fiona when I first joined the company.

Every time you switch the brand you’re writing for, just take 15 minutes to read some of their work, even if you’re already familiar with them. It could be a few blog posts, emails, or even an ebook. It will help you really capture their tone and voice, and get you in the right headspace for approaching the task at hand. It’s especially useful if you’re writing for multiple brands a day.

Vikki Ross: Hello, my name is Vikki Ross, and I’m a copywriter. One of my favourite copywriting tips is something David Abbott once said. He was one of the best copywriters in the world, so he knew what he was talking about. He said, “Sometimes the best copy is no copy.” I say that’s absolutely true, that sometimes you need a copywriter to say so.

I hope that helps you when you’re writing, or when you’re telling someone why you don’t need to write anything.

Claire: Hi, I’m Claire, a Junior Copywriter at Radix, and my favourite copywriting tip is to use fewer words. Read over your sentences and ask yourself, can I say the same thing in less words? The chances are that, if you can, it will make your writing clearer, more readable, and more concise.

David: And there you have it: a roundup of advice and information. I hope that’s helpful for you until we can get back with the other podcast proper.

Obviously, I’d like to thank everybody that contributed to that, once again. You’re all wonderful. And I’d like to thank Lisa Woodruff, who’s the Marketing Manager here at Radix. And does so much for the podcast behind the scenes. And Gareth at Bang and Smash Audio, who is very much the unsung hero, making all of this sound vaguely audible and make sense. So thanks to them.

And thanks to you for listening and for bearing with us while we get back to you with a proper podcast sometime in the near future.

The post B2BQ&A 109.5: Copywriters share their top tips for writing B2B content appeared first on Radix.

In an ideal world, a B2B copywriter can read your mind and conjure up the most perfect piece of content you could ever dream of. But here in the real world, there’s briefing to be done.

And in this episode we answer a question from freelance B2B writer (not to mention Radix founder, and original host of this here podcast) Fiona Campbell-Howes, about what happens when briefings go wrong:

“We hear lots on social media about what writers find frustrating about their clients. But I’d be really intrigued to hear things from the client side: what do marketers find frustrating about writers that they work with? And what can we do to make things better for them?”

We put Fiona’s question to Sally Adam, Marketing Director at the cybersecurity company Sophos. And, as you’ll hear, she gave us a brilliant and unflinchingly honest answer. Plus, four anonymous B2B marketers each get their own personal copywriter gripes off their assorted chests.

Also in this episode, Ettie Bailey-King joins us for the final instalment of her inclusive writing advice, and Vikki Ross shares a classic pro tip from copywriting legend David Abbott. And to help us navigate it all, we get fabulous insights and lots of laughs from our guest co-host Harendra “Harry” Kapur (whom you can also find on Twitter here).

You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.

Let’s be clear: Sally considers copywriters to be “hugely, hugely valuable”. But that doesn’t mean we can rest on our laurels. Writers can often give marketers a frustrating time – and usually, it’s when we forget the basics:

Copywriters are full of knowledge, enthusiasm, and good ideas – and usually that’s a good thing. But if it means you start to make assumptions about the brief, or you’re too keen to show off what you know, that can cause issues.

“The copywriter goes off and puts a load of effort in,” says Sally. “And you’re excitedly waiting for the piece because you’ve got a deadline. But when it comes back, they’re not matching up.”

Often, a copywriter has creative ideas that go beyond the brief. And that can be great. But if you try to spring surprises on the marketer, that can be as bad as not listening in the first place. Instead, a quick call or email can confirm you’re on the right track.

“Do check in,” Sally explains. “Sometimes the answer is ‘No, that’s not relevant here,’ and sometimes it’s ‘Wow, brilliant connection; I hadn’t thought of that myself.’ But as someone who’s doing the briefing, you’d much rather have someone ask that question than go to all the effort of creating a piece that misses the mark.”

If the brief involves interviewing a customer or senior leader, the writer’s behaviour reflects strongly on the marketer. And impressions really matter.

“I’m putting you in the hands of a valued customer, whose business we really value,” Sally says. “You’re representing me. We can work on the actual copy that comes back, but the experience the interviewee has with the copywriter is not going to change. That can make or break relationships and have a wider business impact.”

0:59 – Meet the hosts: David McGuire and Harendra Kapur

To have your burning B2B question naswered, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Fiona Campbell-Howes: What do marketers find frustrating about writers that they work with, and what can we do to make things better for them?

Harendra “Harry” Kapur: Oh, can’t wait to get into this one. Let’s ask Sally Adam from Sophos.

David McGuire: Hello listener; you are excessively welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search for an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 109.

Harry: In a few moments, we’re going to hear from Sally Adam, content and marketing leader at Sophos, as well as a few other B2B marketers. And they’re going to be telling us about the most annoying thing about briefing a copywriter, and what we can do about it. We’re also going to hear a copywriting pro tip from Vikki Ross, so good for you. And we will get some inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.

David: Before all of that though, who the hell are we? Well, I’m David McGuire, Creative Director at Radix Communications, the B2B tech writing agency. And our guest co-host for this episode is a B2B tech writer, consultant, speaker, all round agent of chaos, Harendra Kapur. Harry, welcome.

Harry: Hey man, thanks for having me on.

David: Hey, how you doing? For the listeners who don’t know, you were Head of Copy at Velocity, and doing your own thing now, right?

Harry: Yeah, just freelancing my little butt round town. That’s kind of what I’ve been up to. And, yeah, it’s gone much better than I thought. Because it’s like, leaving a successful agency with this fancy title and stuff in the middle of a pandemic, maybe recession type of deal. When I did it, it just felt like…

David: Perfectly sensible.

Harry: Yeah, like this could go horribly wrong. And it hasn’t. And I’m very grateful for that. So yeah.

David: I’m glad to hear it’s going well. Couldn’t happen to a nicer chap. But before we get on with this serious business of answering the question for the episode, would you mind doing your first duty as co-host and telling the listener how they can get in touch with us?

Harry: Yeah sure. So listener, if you have comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter @Radixcom. But if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, then record a quick little voice note and send it by email: [email protected].

David: That’s perfect, thank you very much.

Vikki: Hello, my name is Vikki Ross, and I’m a copywriter. One of my favourite copywriting tips is something David Abbott once said. He was one of the best copywriters in the world, so he knew what he was talking about. He said, “sometimes the best copy is no copy”. I say, that’s absolutely true, that sometimes you need a copywriter to say so. I hope that helps you when you’re writing, or when you’re telling someone why you don’t need to write anything.

Harry: Love that from Vikki. So much of the best stuff a copywriter does on any kind of project is wordless and invisible and choosing not to do something. And so it’s really good of her to call that out because so much of this is about restraint even. But anyway, let’s get to the Q&A part of B2BQ&A. We’ll start with a very familiar voice.

Fiona: Hi, Radix. It’s Fiona Campbell-Howes here, freelance B2B tech content writer. So, we hear lots on social media about what writers find frustrating about their clients. But I’d be really intrigued to hear things from the client side. What do marketers find frustrating about writers that they work with? And what can we do to make things better for them?

David: Hello, Fiona, how lovely to have your voice back on the show. Listener, in case you’re new around these parts, Fiona actually founded Radix and used to co-host this very podcast. And as you’d expect from Fiona, this is such a good question. The only issue is who’d be bold enough to talk to a copywriter about the most annoying things that copywriters do? Well, actually more people than you might think.

To start with, I spoke with Sally Adam, who’s content and product marketing leader at the cybersecurity company Sophos, and I asked her Fiona’s question, what do you find the most frustrating thing when you’re briefing a copywriter?

Sally: I think the most annoying thing is when the copywriter doesn’t listen to what you are looking to achieve with the piece. Usually, you’ve got a lot of goals, or the things you want to do with it. And sometimes you can see the copywriter isn’t really listening and when the piece comes back, you can see it’s a case of, “okay, I had this thing that I knew on this topic that I wanted to write about. And I’ve just written what I wanted to say on this topic rather than what we needed to achieve with this particular piece of work”.

David: Why do you think it is a copywriter would do that? Are they just trying to kind of add value, ironically? Or are they trying to kind of show off how much they know? Or do they think they know better than you?

Sally: I think it’s probably a bit of all of those. Often when you’ve been writing on a topic for a while you build up your own knowledge, your own experience of the topic, and suddenly your mind runs away. And you’re thinking, “okay, actually, I’ve got some experience here. I’ve already done this, I feel comfortable writing about this particular element because I’ve done it before”.

And so there’s a bit of a case of, “okay, this is an area where I’ve got some expertise that I can bring in, or I enjoy writing about that”. But also, I do think there’s a piece of, “okay, this could be helpful, or I can use my knowledge here to extend the piece”. And sometimes that’s great.

What is wonderful with a copywriter is when they’re joining together the different briefs you’ve done over a period of time, and they’re linking up and thinking, “okay, well, we actually did this piece. And that ties in with something she’s mentioned, let me ask her if it’s worth us joining these together, or should I reference them”.

And I love that, when people are piecing the puzzle together and helping extend the story and connect elements. The challenge is when there isn’t the check. And the copywriter goes off and puts a load of effort in and you’re excitedly waiting for the piece because you’ve got a deadline. And when it comes back, they’re not matching up.

David: So the thing there that the copywriters should be doing, but they’re not doing is to check with you. Is that really what you’d like you’d like to happen in that situation?

Sally: Absolutely, yeah. So, play back the brief. And I try and do that myself when I’m getting tasks at work is, play back and make sure I’ve understood correctly what we’re being asked for.

But, and also, as you have other ideas, if you have thoughts of connections, or ways it could go, do check in. As someone who’s doing the briefing, you’d much rather have someone ask that question and say, “is this something we can join in together?” Then them go to all the effort and the time of creating a piece that then is missing the mark.

David: And sometimes I guess people don’t feel like they’re allowed, because they know that you’re busy or whatever. But I suppose in the long run, that will save you time.

Sally: Yeah, absolutely. And I think for us who are briefing, we need to make sure that we give the copywriter the time, we give them those opportunities to ask the questions, because otherwise, we’re putting them in an impossible situation.

So yeah, very much there’s a responsibility on the briefer to support and enable and to allow the person – and to help them also feel good about asking the questions. Sometimes the answer is “no, that’s not relevant here”. And sometimes it’s “wow, brilliant connection. I hadn’t thought of that myself.”

But as with all things, it’s fine to ask the question, and we need to make sure that the copywriter feels comfortable, and isn’t going to be made to feel stupid or anything for asking that question.

David: So do you then find things tend to go better where it’s a written brief, or if it’s a briefing call, or a combination of the two? How do you prefer to work and which gives the most opportunity for that clarification?

Sally: I think both are good. And quite often, it’s good to do both together. So maybe start with a written brief so the copywriter gets a chance to think with a little bit of calm and to maybe formulate some questions that they want to ask, and some initial ideas. And also then give something for everybody to go back to when you’re just wanting to refresh yourself when you’ve been doing a different job, and writing about a different topic.

But having the opportunity to speak and explore in person, and I think explain perhaps in a bit more detail than you would do in an email is also really helpful. But also you have to ask the copywriter what would they prefer because I suspect different copywriters prefer different approaches. Some may prefer to just start with the conversation, some may want to have a really detailed written brief.

David: Can I ask about the amends process, when a piece may be hasn’t hit the mark? Is that something where when you go back with that feedback, do copywriters kind of get defensive at all, or is it kind of alright for them to sort of push back if you or stakeholders have suggested changes?

Sally: I think it’s probably true for copywriting as much as any other job. If somebody is giving you quality feedback that they’ve properly taken the time to consider and to convey back then it is a gift to take.

Now, there’s sometimes feedback that is just a personal opinion. And I think we need to make clear when we’re giving feedback if something is a personal opinion, or if it’s just experience, or if it’s a factual thing. And then maybe sometimes as a copywriter, you’ve got expertise.

Certainly, I’m sure every copywriter’s grammar is better than mine. And so do push back, if it’s an area where you feel you are the expert. But generally, if it’s good and quality, considered feedback, then hopefully it’s something that can help with the final piece.

And probably the longer that you work with an organization, the better you’ll get to know them. You’ll be able to get to know their style, and the type of topics that they cover, and the approach they’re looking for. So in my experience, the longer we work together, the fewer the amends as we go on.

David: Do you find yourself sometimes sort of stuck in the middle between a copywriter and a stakeholder, or stuck between a copywriter and a subject matter expert who are sort of at loggerheads. Sometimes I kind of feel for the marketer being stuck in the middle there. What’s that like?

Sally: That’s where you have to say, “okay, my job, my expertise is to be the person in the middle and to be the person who is representing the audience we want to reach”. And that’s the hat I need to wear, “what is going to resonate with the audience?” And that’s where I can add value between the subject matter expert and the copywriter is going “okay, great. You’ve both got really informed and interesting positions here. But let me play the role of the audience”. And that’s my part in the process, that’s the value that I bring.

David: How can a copywriter best help you at that stage of the process?

Sally: Perhaps through explaining why they’ve done something in a particular way. If there’s a stakeholder and in our case, quite often a very technical stakeholder, who is saying something, it can be really valuable to have the outsider in terms of the copywriter, share their opinion:

“I don’t know that term, that is not something that is commonly understood, that is really valuable feedback,” or “the reason I structured this particular part in this way is because of ABC”. So yeah, explaining their reasoning because there’s a lot of skill and thought and expertise that goes behind those words. And that also helps communicate and convert to the subject matter expert.

David: So, comments in the margins, that kind of thing that will kind of help you and kind of inform that conversation. Is there anything else that you finally wish that, while you have the ear of copywriters, is there anything else you wish they did differently?

Sally: So copywriters are hugely, hugely valuable. They create wonderful pieces, they turn thoughts and ramblings into coherent stories that really help get across what we’re about. So great copywriters are fabulous.

I think the final thing I’d sort of say is that when we’re briefing a copywriter, particularly for an interview situation, where it’s going to be interviewing, perhaps colleagues, perhaps its customers, perhaps it’s other people in the wider industry, you’re representing me. I’m putting you in front of senior leaders in my organisation, I’m putting you in the hands of my customer, whose business we really value and whose business we really wish to maintain. You are the representation of me.

And I know that is widely understood. But I think it’s probably worth emphasising because I think that’s probably the nervousness from my side, more than anything else. The actual copy that comes back, we can work on that. But the experience that the interviewee has with the copywriter, that’s not going to change. That’s the impression that they’re going to walk away with. And that is, therefore, probably the thing that is most important, because that’s going to make or break other relationships and perhaps will have a wider business impact.

So I’d say just bear in mind you’re representing the person who briefs you, you’re representing their organisation as well. So we’re placing a huge amount of trust in you. And it’s almost always repaid 100-fold, but you are being entrusted with our perspectives and our representation.

David: Thanks, Sally. That is a really helpful and balanced response. And there’s loads of practical input for all the copywriters listening. Harry, I know you’ve got to have some views on this. So what stood out for you there?

Harry: Well, I mean, having managed writers in my life, I know how annoying we can be. But I think Sally’s definitely clocked the most annoying thing about briefing copywriters. And it’s really, when you just don’t listen. I’ve been this guy more times than I’d care to admit.

And I think generally speaking, when a copywriter’s going into a briefing, it’s a moment of high excitement for them on multiple different levels. You might be really nervous about, “I don’t want to say something stupid in front of the smart person”. Or you might be like, “I’m really excited to talk about this brief, because I’ve got some ideas that I want to pitch the client that would fit this brief, and I can’t wait to tell him or whatever”.

And actually, I think, really, the important thing, and you just learn this over the years from doing it time after time, is just put all that stuff aside, and just go into the room, and listen, and just sit there and be a dummy. The other ones in the room is by definition smarter than you. That’s why they’re briefing you, because they know more than you do. And so just like let it in, hear it the way they’re saying it, don’t hear it the way you wish it was.

These are all obviously really hard things to do. And you get better at doing them over time. But I think, really, the big thing is just, enjoy being the dummy. Just chill. Just ask your stupid clarifying question or, test, “I thought this would be a good thing that we could do.” Just say the things that you need to say, because I think, if you spend 20 minutes really doing someone that courtesy of listening to them, they’ll listen back. They’ll be happy to talk to you about the thing. It’s a lot easier that way. But it can be hard and definitely the most annoying thing I think that copywriters can do.

David: Yeah, I mean, I think Katherine Wildman, I think in a previous episode was kind of – shared a tip about intelligent naivety. Which I think is great – actually pretending you’re dumber than you are. Just to be that blank canvas, to represent the audience.

Harry: Yeah, exactly.

David: Which is a really tricky thing to do, particularly in an area like ours, where you’re aware that they’ve hired a specialist B2B writer or a specialist B2B tech writer for a reason. Because they don’t want to have to go right back to zero and so you kind of want to show that you know the area and that there’s a real balance there because you don’t want to cross pollute with too many of your own ideas.

Harry: Exactly.

David: There’s that idea from the – is it from the Kama Sutra? – of the beginner’s mind. I think it applies here. The stuff from your old partners should not colour the stuff with your new partners. I think it’s the same with clients a little bit.

Harry: You’ve got to do a thread on what B2B marketers can learn from the Kama Sutra. Make that happen!

David: You haven’t heard my ebook about that? That’s a whole different podcast series.

Harry: I think really the challenging thing, I think that – in an ideal world, the client and the copywriter, and really any other creative representative involved in the briefing, you’re all trying to shape something together, that fits obviously the client’s vision of reality, and what will pan out and all that stuff, but then also all your own little weird, artistic, “this is a good way to say that”, or whatever your thing might be.

And you’re trying to get to that place where you’re shaping it together. And I think ground zero and that is that when the other person’s briefing you, you hear what they’re saying, even if it isn’t in the words they’re saying. You’re really trying to understand the intent behind the briefing as well.

And so listening, it’s not just sitting there thinking nothing. It’s really paying close attention to what they mean, and what they’re prioritising and all this invisible in-between-the-line stuff, all the good stuff.

David: And being that – Sally was saying that she’s the avatar kind of for the audience, for the reader. That’s really important. All the time, sitting in their seat. It’s so important.

Harry: Correct. Yeah. And there’s obviously at the end of the spectrum, there’s another kind of like, weird little issue that comes up. Which is you can know a client so well, that you have an amazing shorthand with them. And you have these awesome fluid four minute briefing sessions where they just go, “ebook, top of funnel, difficult,” and you go, “I know what you mean”.

And you go ahead and make this thing, and it’s that thing of the avatar for the customer or the prospect, I think is – so much of that is that they don’t have any other context. They don’t know what you’re talking about. They have no – they don’t know where this company is coming from, where the stuff that they’re preaching is coming from, where the best practice advice is coming from, any of that stuff. And so you do have to – you need to be able to both go down to zero and think about it like a smart prospect would be thinking about it, and how they would be approaching it.

David: Absolutely. Sally’s not actually the only person to have answered this question for us. I think we alluded to this earlier. I got a whole bunch of – Sally was the only one that was brave enough to put a name on it – but I did get a whole bunch of anonymous responses as well.

It seems there’s actually quite a lot that annoys marketers about copywriters. So we picked the best few. We’ll play those in and you can tell me what you think just off the top of your head. Okay?

Harry: Cool.

Anonymous marketer #1: I wish B2B copywriters understood that people in B2B are still people. They may not be in their primary role as a consumer when they are reading the copy you’ve written, but we can talk to them as if they are. They’re still humans. They don’t need dozens of fluffy buzzwords to understand a concept or engage with your content. Without dumbing it down or doing your content a disservice, write as a human to another human in a conversational and human way.

Harry: That’s hard to argue with. I mean, I do feel sure that we can be more annoying than that. We can be worse than that. There’s worse things copywriters do.

David: You don’t think that’s the worst thing?

Harry: No, no.

David: Okay, this is the top four.

Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we need a good top three. We need to burn this into people’s back’s or something.

David: The thing that’s interesting about this is a – it’s like a B2B tech writer that’s gone native, right? I think every B2B tech writer comes into it, trying to weed out the buzzwords and trying to get away from that stuff. And probably at the end, just the whole career of having to get things signed off. In the end, they just assume that they have to write that way. I think there’s a switch that gets flicked.

Harry: No, definitely, definitely. It’s kind of like an ocean, right? It’s like the national gravity in the space is that – and this is the uncomfortable thing. If you want to efficiently work with many different clients in B2B, actually, the consequence of that might be that there’s a whole lot of buzzword nonsense in your thing, because you just split writing. Your audience is the marketing department paying your bills, and that’s kind of the extent of it. But no, writing for humans, definitely good. I’d love to see a B2B company try to talk to people as if they were cats. I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe – imagine if that works. Imagine if that’s amazing!

David: B2B catnip. You heard it here first. Okay, the next one.

Anonymous marketer #2: My pet hate is briefing an agency that then subs out copywriting to someone who wasn’t in the room.

Harry: Oh, okay, okay, now we’re talking. Now we’re getting into some really good stuff. Because I’d like to say this first as like a very small point of defence on behalf of agencies. Because I’ve been in that situation, I’ve been in every version of that situation. I’ve been the guy outside the room, I’ve been the guy telling the guy inside the room to give it to the guy outside. I’ve been through all permutations of this.

And it can work. I’ve seen this work. There are times when there’s someone who’s outside the room, who you’ve never spoken to, and you didn’t expect them to work on it, and then they do something and it blows your mind. That can happen. And I think actually a lot of the magic you’re paying for with an agency is that possibility that that could happen.

Now that said, this is the worst thing. I hate this one. It’s so irritating, it’s so frustrating to – especially I think when clients really do the agency the kind of courtesy of bringing their best self to the briefing. They’re prepared, they’ve thought about the session, “I’ll explain this, then I’ll explain this and he’ll get it,” you know, whatever. They’ve really thought about doing the briefing well, and then they do the briefing, and then it’s some random who didn’t even clock all the important stuff they we’re talking about in the brief. That’s the worst, it’s so annoying. So really hard.

David: I love it. The worst thing about briefing a copywriter is when the copywriter is not there.

Harry: Yeah! What’s the point of that?

Anonymous marketer #3: When the individual hasn’t understood the client’s tone or style of writing and so returns with the monotone or “off-voice” style. Take more time to review the client’s historic style and tone please.

Harry: Yeah, that’s just basics man. That’s the – it’s basics and you’d hope that every copywriter’s doing this kind of a thing, but I think it’s really good to hear this from the horse’s mouth, from the mouth of someone who’s annoyed and irritated by it.

Because I think, especially with younger writers, I think there’s a part of us that believes that this client doesn’t know what they want. “Once I make this thing, they’ll understand how good it is like, they’ll see it in the finished product, I’ll blow their mind and it’ll be amazing”.

And I think that’s an important part of you to keep, you should always be trying to do that for the client. But really the first audience you need to know, we talked about knowing your audience and stuff, the first audience you have to know is the dude or lady who at 6:17pm on a Friday is saying to her office friends, “no, you guys go to the pub, I’ll catch up with you later,” or whatever. “I’m going to open this document that the stranger has sent me. And I’m just really desperately hoping that what’s in this document isn’t professionally embarrassing to me. It just a little looks like it’s coming from someone who doesn’t know what the hell they’re talking about,” or whatever.

And that’s the first hurdle you have to clear as a copywriter. That’s the first person you’ve got to be empathetic to I think, definitely on the B2B side, but I think that’s true on the B2C side as well. Maybe a lot more deferential out there. It’s really annoying. You need to know how the person you’re working for wants to represent themselves and no idea you have is more important than that.

And that’s the first hurdle you have to clear as a copywriter. That’s the first person you’ve got to be empathetic to I think, definitely on the B2B side, but I think that’s true on the B2C side as well. Maybe a lot more deferential out there. It’s really annoying. You need to know how the person you’re working for wants to represent themselves and no idea you have is more important than that.

Anonymous marketer #4: I have experienced two recurring issues. One: not being able to speak the language of the target audience or decision makers. We had a Gen Z copywriter who was writing content directed at senior C suite executives, 50-60-year-old mostly male individuals. This doesn’t necessarily mean jargon but definitely some corporate terminology that CHR or CFOs would relate with: increase revenue, decrease costs in some way or the other.

We had to go through a few rounds and I had to describe our audience in detail for them to do a good job to the whole features instead of benefits angle. Quite a few times content and copy would be about what we provide rather than intelligently talking about the value add and when this was explained most copy was a direct “here are five benefits of ….”, which in my opinion doesn’t really work.

Harry: That sucks. If you keep coming across that’s awful, that’s really bad. I mean, I guess, obviously, all that tells me is that like the most annoying thing is bad copywriting. Nothing beats bad copywriting.

David: I think there’s an element of this and it’s maybe something we should talk about on the show that I know that Leif Kendall at Pro Copywriters has for a while been talking about the idea of “do we need some kind of accreditation for copywriters?” Because at the moment anyone can stick a shingle outside their door and say “I’m a copywriter.” And the more people who do that, who don’t really embrace the craft, the more it undermines the rest of us.

Harry: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it’s a weird one as well, because at least in the years I’ve been doing this… Over the years, you sort of tried to collect as many absolute truths about the craft as you can. And I’ve got an empty bag. I can never find anything that pervades all industries and all contacts and all situations, because B2B, we don’t hang out because we like talking to companies, we hang out because we don’t sell shampoo.

We’re united by what we don’t do. And that’s about the extent of it, like a service company and a SAS company. It’s fundamentally different business models, and the way they approach markets are going to become completely different, the way they talk to people is going to be different. And so it’s hard, but it is a little frustrating when someone has worked with seven bad copywriters in a row and then they go “ah, marketing doesn’t work” or whatever.

And it’s like, “no, you hired bad people.” And I don’t know how to convince them of that. I don’t know how to demonstrate that to someone. Maybe accreditations would be good. But yeah, maybe it’s good that Leif’s talking about this because I really couldn’t think of many people who would take on something like that, but maybe Leif’s the guy though.

David: Yep, absolutely. Leif, the ball’s in your court. You make it happen and we will support you.

Harry: Good luck dude!

David: Okay, it is almost time for us to wrap up. But first we do have our final inclusive writing tip from Ettie Bailey-King.

Ettie Bailey-King:  You’ve probably heard people talking about person-first language or identity-first language. So what does this mean?

Person-first language would put somebody’s name first. And they might say “Ettie has depression.” That’s person-first language because the person’s name, or perhaps the pronoun talking about them comes first. You might say “she has depression”. And person-first language is really popular with a wide range of identities, and often marginalised experiences.

In many cases, we want to be referred to using person-first language because it puts the person back in the frame. I’m not defined by my depression, I’m still a real person with a full and rich identity separate from that. But many people actually want identity-first language. So what does identity-first language look like?

Well, that might look like saying, “I’m autistic,” “I’m schizophrenic,” “she’s disabled”. And in some cases, that community of people really, really wants to use identity-first language. It’s really important that we find out what people’s preferences are.

So in the example of autism, many, many autistic people say that they really want their autism to be considered part and parcel of who they are. It is not a separate trivial detail of their identity. It’s absolutely integral. And that’s why many autistic people will really, really want that language to be used.

And if we don’t respect that wish, then were really undermining their right to express themselves and to be taken seriously given their identity. So what’s the lesson that we can draw from this? Well, unfortunately, there isn’t one simple tip as to whether you should always use person first or always use identity first. Brings us back to tip number one, which is that you must always ask.

If you’re looking for a rough rule of thumb, it’s typically the case that identity-first language is popular with people who have physical, motor and sensory disabilities. So for example, many deaf people want to say “I am deaf”, they won’t say “I am a person with deafness”. So you can keep in mind that frequently identity-first language is popular with certain physical motor and sensory disabilities. But you always need to check.

David: That’s actually the last in the series of these tips. Etiie, we are really grateful to you for sending them in. They’ve been so practical and thought provoking over these last few months. And listen, if you want more information on inclusive and anti-oppressive language, you can find Ettie at fightingtalk.uk or on Twitter @ettiebk.

Harry: And of course, we also want to thank Fiona Campbell-Howes for asking the question that kicked this whole thing off. We hope you feel like you were satisfied by the answers that we came across, that we did surface the annoying things about briefing copywriters. And so, of course, we would really like to thank Sally Adam from Sophos for such an honest, thought provoking, good, correct answer, I think, to a difficult question – we appreciate that. And obviously, thank you to everyone who anonymously sent in their comments. And, of course, the great Vikki Ross, for her pro tip.

David: Thank you, Vikki. And thank you, Harry, you have been a fabulous guest co-host once again. I hope you’ll come back again?

Harry: Oh, it’s been my pleasure. I would absolutely love to.

David: Awesome. We’ll look forward to that. In the meantime, if the listener wants to get in touch with you and find out more about the wonderful world of Harry Kapur, where can they do that?

Harry: You can reach me, the quickest way to reach me is probably on my Twitter, which is @rupees1hundred, probably easier to just search my name. But also if you want to work with me, then probably best to find me on LinkedIn.

David: Great, and we’ll put a link in the show notes as well. Remember listener, it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer email, a voice memo to [email protected]. Or find us on social media. I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then make good content and remember, one day you will die but the content you publish will live forever. Thanks a bunch, Google.

Harry and David: Goodbye!

The post B2BQ&A 109: What’s the worst thing about briefing a B2B copywriter? appeared first on Radix.

This episode, we’re answering a question that’s been bothering Irene Triendl:

“How much content actually gets consumed in B2B? So, how much of the stuff that we create is actually read, or watched, or listened to? And how can we use that knowledge to create better content?”

It’s a damned good point. We spend all this time writing blogs, ebooks, white papers and video scripts, but who knows how much of it finds its way to an actual reader?

Katie Colbourne, Senior Manager of Global Demand Generation at Basware, that’s who. So we asked her.

This month’s episode also features a copywriting tip from Katherine Wildman, and Ettie Bailey-King is back with more of her brilliant inclusive writing advice.

Plus, get insights from our co-host, Matt Laybourn, founder of Rockee.io – the first B2B audience feedback platform.

You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.

Katie brings a lot of valuable insight to this month’s podcast episode. If you find yourself without the time to listen, here are some highlights:

B2B audiences are smaller than B2C ones, meaning you’ll always have fewer readers. But don’t get disheartened, it’s not an entirely bad thing.

The effort to create B2B content isn’t wasted because that small number of people still need to find the answers they’re looking for. And often, the answers they need only occasionally are the most influential in the buying process.

“Your evergreen content is your bread and butter information around your proposition – your solutions, your fact sheets – which aren’t being read every single day, but actually they’re being read when they need to be,” Katie explains.

Keeping track of clicks, views and plays will tell you how far your content is going, and how many people it’s reaching – but it can’t tell you how many people are really engaged.

“By the time somebody lands on a web page, I’d love to tell you 100% of them engage with it and read every single word, and they fill in all the forms you want them to,” says Katie. “But actually, we’re talking sort of 10-to-15% of those people doing something on that page.”

To track engagement it’s important to look at how many people are taking action based on your content – whether that be following links, commenting, sharing, subscribing to a blog or newsletter, booking a meeting or making a purchase.

At the end of the day, it’s not about creating content that will go viral, it’s about helping your readers solve their business challenges – and that starts with understanding their pain points.

“If you’re producing content that doesn’t resonate with your audience, in today’s world, then you’re doing something wrong,” Katie adds. “Because I think that’s a massive alert that you’re not listening to your customers and you don’t know your customers.”

Katie says to research your target audience, run focus groups and questionnaires, and read reports about them. It’s the same advice we got last month from Claire Drumond, Head of Marketing for Jira Software and Agile Solutions at Atlassian, when we answered “What content works best for B2B audiences?”

1:03 – Meet our hosts, David McGuire and Matt Laybourn

4:20 – What’s Katherine Wildman’s favourite short copywriting tip?

5:15 –We ask Katie Colbourne this month’s big question

23:00 – Guest co-host Matt talks useful metrics and analytics?

32:48 – Ettie Bailey-King shares some inclusive writing advice

To get your burning B2B questions answered, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Irene Triendl: How much content actually gets consumed in B2B? So, how much of the stuff that we create is actually read, or watched, or listened to? And how can we use that knowledge to create better content?

Matt Laybourn: That’s a really interesting question. Let’s ask Katie Colbourne from Basware.

David McGuire: Hello listener, you are completely welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 108.

Matt: In a few moments, Katie Colbourne from Basware will tell us how much of the B2B Creative Director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency. And we have a super interesting guest co-host this episode. It’s Matt Laybourn from Rockee. Matt, thanks for joining us.

Matt: Thank you, David. Really, really appreciate it. Thank you for having me on.

David: No, absolutely. I think people will actually be quite interested when they hear what Rockee does. It’s a new thing, right? So could you introduce it to us?

Matt: Yeah. So Rockee is an audience feedback platform that is hopefully going to help B2B marketers to make even better content.

David: All right, so how does it do that then?

Matt: Good question. So it’s basically from a bit of a challenge that we found from speaking with different marketing leaders, performance marketers or creators, demand gen marketers, we were all kind of looking at what content does and hypothesising about what the good version of it looks like.

So some of us use Google Analytics, some of us used like, I don’t know, SEM, Rush and SEO tools, some of us are just looking at the amount of leads that come out of it. And all of those essentially are proxies around what content does. Now, what good content is, is in the eye of the beholder. So Rockee is designed to basically ask the people who matter most and that is the people who have actually read that piece of content. So it’s basically a feedback widget at the moment that sits on a website, which is collecting that data, getting insights as to whether the content was useful, helpful, solved problems, all the things that content is supposed to do.

So yeah, early stages, we’re only a beta stage at the moment and taking on a few early users. But yeah, we’re really excited and seeing some really interesting data already.

David: Oh, that sounds very interesting. Sounds like another very interesting data source that marketers will have, and not tell copywriters if anything works.

Matt: That’s the problem. We’ve got to tell the creators, man. We can’t just keep holding that to ourselves and then not putting it into good briefs and actually helping you guys – because the feedback loop is a thing that we hypothesise about as a theory that has never come into action.

David: When we do emails, we get asked to do different headlines and things for A/B testing. And then they never tell us which one worked.

Matt: Wow. Yeah. It’s weirdly reassuring to hear everyone having the same challenge, put it that way. Because you’re like, is someone doing this amazingly that no one told us about.

David: I know that you’re going to have lots to say about this topic, this question that we’re talking about today. But we’ll come on to that. Before that, could you tell the listener how they can get in touch with the show, please?

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. So, listener if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter @radixcom. Or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it in by email: [email protected].

David: That’s marvellous. Thank you very much.

Katherine Wildman: Hello, this is Katherine from Haydn Grey. And my favourite short copywriting tip is to remember that you’re only ever writing to one person at a time. So it’s never about the collective, all of us, some of you – nothing like that. It’s a conversation between me and what’s happening in my head, and the reader and what’s happening in their head. One to one, very intimate, very privileged. So only, only ever write to that one person. Thanks for having me!

Matt: Thanks, Katherine. That’s really great advice. So simple, but so very effective.

David: Yeah, do you know that might actually be my favourite copywriting tip of all time?

Matt: I can see why. It’s time for our big question for this episode, and it comes from Irene Triendl at Say What?

Irene: Hi podcast listeners. I have a question that pretty much bugs me every time I create a content programme for one of my clients, or actually write any content in the B2B space. And it’s how much content actually gets consumed in B2B? So how much of the stuff that we create is actually read, or watched, or listened to?

Especially in B2B, I think we all share that belief that content works, because we assume that when the vendor shares valuable expertise and shares knowledge about their market, they’re able to engage their prospect, and they drive leads because they build authority, they build credibility.

And we know that B2B tech companies invest a lot in content creation, and hope they measure the value of that. Yeah, so I would love to hear from someone who measures this sort of stuff. That’d be super interesting. And ultimately what can we learn from that form for our content practice? And how can we use that knowledge to create better content?

David: There’s a lot to answer there, Irene, but you are absolutely right. As content creators, it can be super easy just to publish and think that job’s done. But actually, what does happen next? And how do we respond to that and learn from it?

Okay, Matt, I know you have lots of thoughts on this. But first, I’d like to hear from Katie Colbourne, who’s Senior Manager for Global Demand Generation at Basware. I started by asking her Irene’s question, essentially, how much of the content we write actually does get read?

Katie Colbourne: So I think that’s a tough question to answer. But my gut would tell me that probably not all of it, or not a lot – surprising as that may sound. Just because first hand from obviously working in the industry for several years now, I know that we spend lots of effort and time producing white papers, research reports, case studies, etc.

But actually, because we’re talking about B2B audiences, they’re quite niche anyway, if you compare that to B2C, and then if you consider conversion rates and engagement, and all of those types of things, by the time you actually get down to the bottom of that funnel, if you want to call it that, I think those numbers are actually quite small.

But what I would say is that I don’t think that’s a bad thing, because I think it does, for the people who are looking for that content, they need to engage with it, they need the case studies for an RFP, or whatever it might be. I think the effort sort of pays off and does that job.

But then you also always have that evergreen content, which I think is always there. It’s kind of your bread and butter information around your proposition: your solutions, your fact sheets, which again, they’re not being read every single day, but actually they’re being read when they need to be. So when you get to certain points, no conversation with prospect, and all of those types of things.

And then I would add one more thing to that. I think if we’re talking about research reports, or anything that’s considered thought leadership, or current affairs, or anything like that, I would always say there’s a naturally a big peak in the way that’s being absorbed and read, but then that will naturally tailor off. And it’s harder to make those types of materials be evergreen content after a certain number of months. So that’s a long answer. Hopefully, that sort of answers that in many ways.

David: I think so. So to summarise, it’s a small audience for a lot of content.

Katie: Yeah, exactly.

David: But that’s okay because potentially it’s a high-value audience or it’s a valuable job that it’s doing when it is used. And also, some of them are like a long, slow burn with a little audience, but stretched out. And some do attract a lot of attention, but those might not be the most valuable pieces in the long term.

Katie: Yeah.

David: Wow. That’s interesting. You mentioned engagement and readership and things like that. In that situation, where you have different kinds of audiences for different kinds of things, what kind of metrics do you think are sensible to define what a B2B piece of content is doing?

Katie: Yeah, so that depends on obviously the piece of content. So if we’re looking at things like blogs, it would be looking at the number of page views that you’ve got, anybody that shared that blog with anybody on Twitter or email, whatever that might be – so they forwarded it on to a colleague. And equally as well, if there are links in that blog, if they’ve clicked on that. So again, it’s not just saying who’s looked at the blog, but actually who’s engaged, digested it, and read it.

If you’re talking about videos, it would obviously be video plays, but importantly, video plays sort of to the end or further on in, so you can see those statistics in most of these video platforms now.

And then I think when you’re talking about things like white papers, or research reports, it would naturally be conversions. And that’s what I was meaning around my comment earlier about, “there’s a small audience,” because by the time somebody lands on a web page, I’d love to tell you 100% of them engage with it and read every single word, and they fill in all the forms you want them to. But actually, we’re talking sort of 10 to 15% of those people doing something on that page. So again, that number is sort of dramatically reduced. So I think those would be the main statistics we would be looking for.

But then also as well, I would be also considering things like blog subscriptions, and newsletter subscriptions. So these are kind of some of those softer metrics. But if somebody’s coming to the site from their own organic searching, or whatever it might be, those are types of things that would indicate an interest there, and that they’ve been they’ve liked the content, and they want to see more and hear more from us.

David: So again, it’s not just the raw number of how many people are reading, it’s actually what those people are doing, and how much it’s kind of affecting, or engaging them, or moving them forward through the process.

Katie: Yeah, because I think, obviously, in the B2C world, you get millions of views on a YouTube video, you can see that when they release movie trailers and things like that, trailers even.

But that’s never going to be the case in B2B. And even if you did get, let’s say, I don’t know, 100,000 views on a video, the propensity of those viewers actually having any intention to buy now or if in a time in the future is so low that actually – that’s fantastic as a vanity metric and obviously, it’s great to sort of say. But if you get 100 viewers that are all engaged, that’s actually much better, in my opinion – just in the context of B2B that is, not B2C obviously.

David: Yeah, absolutely. So, you mentioned 100 really engaged viewers there. And I guess it depends on the brand and a lot of other things. But when you’re looking at the bucket of metrics that you’re looking at for different pieces of content, are there particular numbers, particular benchmarks that kind of give you a rule of thumb that – “yeah, this one!” – what stands out to you as a success? What does that look like when you’re evaluating content?

Katie: So I think if we want to get a general perception of how the content is, what good quality it is, if it’s interesting, engaging, all of these types of things, we would actually be looking across all of the different channels because that gives you I think, a fair representation, rather than just say, looking at people that are coming on to the website.

So are people engaging in it on LinkedIn? Are they engaging with it on Twitter? Are they clicking through from newsletter features? Equally, are our telling us that that was a great piece of content, it helped to start a conversation? So some of those kind of metrics or opinions, if you like, are a mixture of offline as well. If you’re at an event booth, is that the most sort of picked up asset? If you’re presenting on it, similarly, in an event Keynote, are people actively asking questions about it?

So there’s so many ways, I think, to define what a great piece of content is. But I think, again, for us, for me anyway, in my career, it’s always been a piece of content that has enough breath to be repurposed in lots of different ways. So it’s not just the white paper itself, or fact sheet, whatever it is, but actually, it’s something that can be divided up and used across different channels and definitely spread kind of the content from the asset itself.

David: Yeah, one sidebar to that I’m interested in is, you mentioned kind of the offline stuff, things getting picked up at events, people asking questions about it, that kind of stuff. Is it possible to capture that anywhere and include that in your reporting? Or is that all sort of done through word of mouth in your marketing department?

Katie: Yeah, again, I think it depends. So obviously, if we’re talking about sales guys sending a prospect a piece of content and then talking about it with them in a follow-up meeting or something, there are various tools you can actually use now to do that, to see if the prospect has engaged with it.

So you can add that to any anecdotes that also come out of the meeting. So there’s tools like Showpad, Brandfolder, all of these types of ones that allow you to see if a prospect has engaged. And that’s just coming from an Outlook email or even a LinkedIn InMail invite, whatever it might be. If it’s at an event or kind of a round table, then I guess, that is more anecdotal. Unless she was sort of capturing contacts at booths for an asset, but I think people tend to veer away from that these days, because it’s such a kind of blocker.

David: Yeah, I suppose even these days when everything is quantified, sometimes you just get a sense of the temperature of the response to something that can’t always be quantified and measured, I guess.

One of the things I wanted to ask is, how common is it that a piece of content really doesn’t deliver? Like, it just doesn’t resonate, nobody’s interested? Like, does that happen a lot? Is that half the time, is that one in 10? How many ones are there that really, really engage the audience? And how many are there where it’s like, crickets? Because there must be some that for whatever reason, just miss right?

Katie: Yeah, trying to think now. Let’s have a think. Do you know what? I think sometimes, and this isn’t any disrespect to you because I know you’re agency side, but – and I’ve been agency side for 10 years – but there have been a number of ideas over the years that we’ve suggested to clients where we suggest it because it’s cool, if you know what I mean.

So it’s actually a good idea that creators are really excited about it. But when you actually deliver that piece of content, the prospects aren’t interested because it’s just a different audience. So I think sometimes, I’d like to say that doesn’t happen as often now, I’m talking sort of years ago, when you’d sort of come up with these ideas, and not do the research.

But I think as long as you know – if you’re close to your audience and your customers, so not just from your own research, so focus groups, questionnaires, whatever it might be, but actually, you’re reading reports about them, like what are their challenges, what are their pain points, then I’d like to think that in today’s world, most of the content that you do write is relevant to somebody, it’s not a complete, sort of, waste of time.

But I think sometimes when we try and do like the bigger ideas in B2B or do those kinds of things that we want to go viral, and again, I am talking years ago now when that was kind of a thing. You know, when clients say, “Oh, can we have something that goes viral?” I think those are the ideas that, actually, they kind of don’t work.

David: But so these days, the less that you’re kind of trying to be cool, the more that you’re plugged into your audience – you might not always get those bits of content that just get a stratospheric response. But similarly, your baseline will be better. There’ll be relatively these days, relatively few pieces of content, then that just don’t resonate at all, because everything kind of has its place for someone. Is that right?

Katie: Yeah. I think that’s a fair summary. I would say that if you’re producing content that doesn’t resonate with your audience, in today’s world, then I think you’re doing something wrong, really. Because I think that’s a massive alert that you’re not listening to your customers and you don’t know your customers.

David: Wow.

Katie: Well, I don’t know, that’s just my opinion. But we –

David: No, no, I think it’s valid.

Katie: Yeah. And also I think there’s less of that in B2B as well, because obviously, budgets are smaller, things like that. So you do have to be really focused on what you’re doing. You have to be constantly thinking about “what is the cost of getting a new customer? How much is this going to convert?” There’s that constant ROI of marketing spend being analysed in B2B and that’s across the board, that’s not just where I am now. That’s always been a thing. So I think you have to deliver.

David: Yeah, absolutely. So the advice then for the listener is really to listen to the audience to avoid a piece of content that really doesn’t get read. Do you have any advice practically on how they can do that? Or which metrics to watch to see if it’s working?

Katie: Yeah, so – well I think before you even do that, I would just really ask yourself, if you think this is going to add value to somebody, and is it interesting?

So I used to do loads of social media training a few years ago and that was the first one we used to always say about posting tweets, LinkedIn posts, whatever. “Is this actually interesting? Would you want to read it?” So I would always start with that question.

And then in regards to actually releasing those answers to your audience, I would do maybe some desk research, see if there’s any latest studies on sort of what are the top challenges, and you’d be looking for sort of industry analysts, research preferably, but even analysts from sort of business publications like The Economist, they’re always good ones to look at to get that broader view.

And then if you have any customers that you can call on, or if you can speak to any of the account managers in your business that are talking to the customers regularly, just ask them what they’re hearing, what are people’s challenges, what are they struggling with, what what’s working for them as well, like, where do they want to sort of keep building on? And then to me, it’s a bit like a jigsaw, you have to sort of fit all of that research together, to come up with a piece of content, hopefully, that works, and engages and delivers.

And I would also look at what’s worked before as well for yourself. So look at your top-performing assets, so views, watches, shares, all of those types of metrics. And then equally as well, I would see what your competition are doing, that’s always really good to be aware of, because whatever they’re focusing on, obviously, I’m not saying copy your competition, but it’s good to be aware of the challenges their customers are seeing too. So I think it’s that rounded picture that you need. They’re very simple in isolation. But when you bring them all together, I think that that really gives you that holistic view for what your audience wants to engage with.

David: That’s amazing. Katie, thank you so much. If the listener wants to hear more from you, get more of your kind of wisdom and insights, where can they find you?

Katie: Yes, so you can obviously connect with me on LinkedIn. Or you can follow my Twitter handle, which is just my full name, Katie Colbourne.

David: That’s perfect.

Katie: I tweet regularly there.

David: Thanks, Katie, you’ve taken Irene’s question in a really interesting direction there. Matt, I know, you’ll be revving your engines wanting to weigh in on this one. So what stood out for you from what Katie had to say?

Matt: There’s loads, loads of really good stuff to go through there. One of the things that actually was really sort of landed for me was around audience size and total addressable market. And I think to answer kind of the overarching question “how much content actually gets seen?” Sometimes very little of it.

And that’s not a bad thing. I completely agree with what Katie’s saying on it, because that one article, that one blog, that was sat somewhere on the website that you wouldn’t expect it to be, might have influenced the most important person in that decision making unit. It might have been the thing that made them go, “You know what, I really want to work with this company.” And that unlocks a huge deal, a huge opportunity for that business, which is absolutely incredible.

So I think we have to be quite smart between some of the metrics we look at and what the relevance is sometimes, because I think we get lost in those comparisons you can see with this YouTube video got 100,000 views, she said that perfectly. Like, it’s not gonna happen in B2B, our market might only be 100,000 people, not all of them are going to watch that video. So it’s so relative.

David: Oh, it might be way fewer than that and sometimes intentionally so. Sometimes you intentionally write a piece that’s for a subset of a subset of a subset of a market. So within a vertical, it’s someone in a particular job role that’s facing a particular challenge, at a particular time.

And that’s why ABM works so well, because the content is so laser-focused on a particular person, facing a particular challenge. And no one looks at ABM content and goes but the audience is really small. That’s the point. So if the size of the audience and the size of the readership is not necessarily that meaningful a metric, what kind of metrics actually are useful in improving content, do you think?

Matt: Yeah, it’s a good point because we rely, as marketers, so much off of quant data. And I feel like such a nerd when I talk like that because I – “was quant or qual data”. And I look at it like that because I look at numbers. But we rely so heavily off of those quiet kind of quant metrics. And the difficulty is sometimes, is ascertaining where the real value in some of those metrics are.

So you’ve got your distribution metrics, just reaching people and having an exposure of your content or your advertising, be it on a website, social media, whatever it is, isn’t necessarily a metric of quality or performance. It just shows your distribution strategy worked, and you found the people. So we can’t measure things like that. But can Katie really came on to it quite nicely, it’s when you start to work into that data, you find some real meaning and value.

So I suppose the next line of metrics you look at are around value and engagement. And those are things like how many people actually viewed the video all the way through? Or how many people scrolled to the bottom of this piece of content, or what the dwell time was on a website, for example? Now you’re starting to get some proxy around that content to say, “oh, do you know what, we’re getting good engagement with it, it’s keeping people entertained or interested”.

And then again, she said it perfectly, the next kind of value is, are people doing things with this content? Are they commenting on it on social media? Are they leaving notes on YouTube videos, or on your LinkedIn posts? Are they sharing it? Are they tagging people in? That shows you’re getting traction, and obviously, we know social media algorithms love that as well.

And then there’s the final metrics, which I think are possibly the most valuable. The first one is obviously has it led to someone going to make a very positive action. So in the content itself, is there a call to action? “We want you to do X or Y, or take a demo,” whatever that might be. That’s a great indicator that content has influenced that person or changed their behaviour

And the other thing that I think is valuable and interesting, and I know has been mentioned on previous podcasts, is their feedback. Is there someone saying, “you know what, I read this, and I really enjoyed it. It helped me solve a problem, it gave me an answer to a challenge I couldn’t face, or I found it incredibly entertaining or amusing”. Those are the kind of the real deep qualitative metrics which we can go, “do you know what, we’re making valuable stuff here. We’re really adding stuff to organisation”. So, a super long answer there but there’s lots of different tools to look at.

David: Yeah. Are there any sort of, when you look at the quant data – see you’ve got me doing it now – when you look at that quantitative data, are there particular benchmarks or rules of thumb within that, where you can kind of say, well, if there’s one piece – if someone’s spent four minutes on something, if someone has spent five minutes on something, if someone has read 80% of it – is there something where it will then correlate with the other qualitative stuff, where you kind of go, alright, if the average read time on this, the average dwell time is beyond a certain amount, we kind of know it’s doing well, or are there so many variables, that you can’t actually get any meaningful rules of thumb out of it?

Matt: Yeah, you’ve just uncovered one of the biggest problems we have, because I don’t think there’s many people doing this well. So I suppose the two metrics I would always consider the most valuable out of quant is essentially, the dwell time, which also in GA4 now is, we’re kind of looking at as engagement rate. And also something called scroll through rate – so how many people have got maybe towards the bottom of the page. But these are still imperfect indicators, they’re proxies.

So as a perfect example of that, to say the best dwell time has got to be relative to the content. So I don’t know how big that piece of content is, unless I’ve got a very fancy spreadsheet or Data Studio report which tells me that blog should take someone five minutes to read therefore we expect a dwell time of five minutes. And to have that data married up with stuff that’s coming out of analytics, there’s only a very small amount of very sophisticated marketers who are doing that to kind of go “we’re really getting high read-through rates and engagement rates of our content”.

But that’s kind of what I mean, there’s a lot of imperfections there as well. Even things like the UX of the website, the layout and structure of how you put that content, has it got too many images in? Is it hard to scroll? There’s so many things, so many variables, as you say, which actually make it not quite as black and white as we need. So I think it’s a challenge we have to be talking about more in content marketing.

David: A thing I hadn’t planned to ask you about actually, but you mentioned there so I’m gonna is GA four. So the new Google Analytics. So engagements in there as a metric, is there stuff in there that’s going to help people make better content, do you think? Or is it too early to say, because I know GA four was a thing that people are just beginning to get their heads around, if they’re even doing that at the moment.

Matt: Yeah, and we’ve got to get onto it quickly, because Google are kicking out the old version of Google Analytics, I think summer of next year. So we have to embrace GA4 now, or similar packages – other providers are available, of course.

But it’s an interesting one, because they’re much more goal focused. And it is essentially a tool that is built around website performance, as opposed to content performance, we have to remember that. So we’re just trying to find the best bits of it to fit into what we do. But because they’ve got engagement rate, which is sort of replacing things like bounce rate as kind of a primary metric. And it’s also bringing into how people are scrolling through a page and how long people are staying on that page. That’s going to be a really meaningful metric.

But it is hopefully going to be easier as well in terms of managing internal attribution of our websites – so how many people read this content, and then went on to make a meaningful action or meaningful engagement. But we call it goals or conversions or events, depending on your setup. It should be a lot easier for that, and understanding what valuable customer journeys look like.

As to how we plan it into our content, in terms of how do we improve our content, that’s still going to be a bit of an interesting one. And I think it needs a bit more exploring, but it’s certainly going to help us understand the information architecture of our websites and how we structure our content, I think that’s going to definitely improve that.

But I suppose the creative element is a little bit of an unknown at this point. And I suppose that’s kind of where my theory is, you still need that qual to get the context behind what good content looks like. Because we’re always sort of gonna guess, from just quant alone, so whoever gets that blend right first is the winner, I think.

David: Matt, thanks. That’s fascinating. I could genuinely talk about this all day. But we only have so many minutes in the podcast. Where can people get in touch with you if they’d like to know more about this stuff?

Matt: Yeah. So best bet, find me on LinkedIn. Just look for Matt Laybourn. There’s not many of me, I’ve got a weird enough name for it. Or check out Rockee.io and yeah, see our new website hopefully launching this week.

David: Wow, amazing. Good luck with that. Perfect. So, before we wrap up, there’s just time for some more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.

Ettie Bailey-King: Avoid generalisations. Generalisations, broad umbrella terms and catch-all terms obscure difference. If you’re talking about asexual people, then just say asexual people, don’t hide under a broad umbrella term like the LGBTQ+ community. Unless of course you are talking about the entire community and then, of course, feel free to use that term. But just be sure that you’re genuinely speaking about the right level of detail here and you’re not trying to sweep people in under a blanket definition of their identities, their wants and their needs.

Matt: Thank you Ettie, that’s really clear, useful advice. And listener, you can hear more inclusive writing advice from Ettie next time. We should also thank Katie Colbourne for answering Irene’s questions so very well. And Katherine Wildman for the writing tip earlier. Plus, of course, thanks Irene Triendl, whose question kicked the whole episode off.

David: And thank you, Matt. You really have been an excellent co-host – no wonder you have a fancy microphone. I hope you’ve enjoyed it.

Matt: Yeah, very much so thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, hopefully some of this is some valuable stuff for the people out there.

David: Yeah, I’m sure people are nodding along and really beginning to think about this stuff and how they can use it. Remember listener, it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email a voice memo to [email protected]. Or find us on social media.

I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then, make good content and remember, once you’ve experienced excellence, you’ll never again be content with mediocrity. Yeah, actually now I think of it that sounds more like a warning. Oh well.

Matt and David: Goodbye!

The post B2BQ&A 108: How much B2B content actually gets read? appeared first on Radix.

In this episode of B2BQ&A, we answer a great question from Richard Hatheway, Senior Manager for Ezmeral Marketing and GTM at Hewlett Packard Enterprise.

He asks: “I have influencers, decision-makers and end-users that I have to engage, so how do I determine what type of content to use for those different target audiences?”

And as you’d expect, we’ve put together an all-star podcast to answer.

First, we put Richard’s question to Claire Drumond, Head of Marketing, Jira Software & Agile Solutions at Atlassian. But that’s not all; you’ll also hear from our guest co-host for this episode: Maureen Blandford, Managing Director of B2B Unleashed.

Meanwhile, Matt Binny brings an assortment of tried-and-true copywriting tips, and we get more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.

You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.

Briefly, here’s what Claire recommends:

If you want to know what kind of content your audience wants, Claire suggests you simply ask. Not only can you get insights into your content, but it’s also a chance to connect with your customers.

“We have a really robust community,”  Claire says. “Sometimes we will just poll the community and ask for feedback on the content before we actually publish it. And people love to give their feedback; they love to have been mentioned, and they love that we ask.”

Monitoring general traffic can help you see how well your content is ranking in Google, and to see if it’s reaching a wider audience. But an even better way to know that content is working is to see if your audiences are inspired to do something.

“If there’s an action that we’re asking that audience to take, we can measure if they’re actually taking that action – whether it be sign up for something, or if it’s just to read the next article,” Claire explains.

After all, you publish content for a reason. If your audience aren’t inspired to act, it’s not doing its job.

If you have the time and resources, you can map what you know about your audience at each stage of their buying journey, and create content to help. But rememeber it may be a different person reading each piece.

“We like to create content for basically every stage of the funnel, and there is a different person that will find that content useful at every stage in the funnel,” says Claire. “We think that buying our products and using our products is a team sport so we make sure that we’re targeting the whole team and not just the buyer.”

3:11 – Matt Binny shares his favourite copywriting pro tips.

3:55 – We pose Richard Hathaway’s question to Claire Drumond.

16:54 – Maureen Blandford shares her wisdom on content for influencers.

22:35 – Ettie Bailey-King reveals the importance of affirmative language.

To get your burning B2B content question answered, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom.

(The same channels work if there’s a copywriting pro tip you’d like to share.)

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Announcer: “I have influencers, decision makers and end users that I have to engage. So how do I determine what type of content to use for those different target audiences?”

Maureen Blandford: I love that question. Let’s ask Claire Drumond from Atlassian.

David McGuire: Hello, listener; you are exceptionally welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 107.

Maureen Blandford: In a few moments, Claire Drumond will tell us how Atlassian match different kinds of content to a broad set of audiences. We’ll also get copywriting tips from Matt Binny, and some inclusive writing advice from Eddie Bailey-King.

David McGuire: Before all of that though, some introductions. My name is David McGuire. I’m Creative director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency. And I am thrilled to welcome a brilliant guest co-host for this episode. Dialling in all the way from Chicago, it’s the Managing Director of B2B Unleashed, complex sales superfan and stakeholder whisperer par excellence. Maureen Blandford. Maureen, welcome.

Maureen Blandford: Always delighted to be with you all. Thanks for having me.

David McGuire: Thank you for being here. So I think possibly – I have to check this – were you B2B Unleashed last time you were on here, or is this new to the listener?

Maureen Blandford: I think I was in my last role. So this is new. So I launched B2B Unleashed a little over a year ago.

David McGuire: Cool, okay. So if it’s a new idea to the listener, what is B2B Unleashed? I’ve got to ask that before we start.

Maureen Blandford: Well, and I appreciate it. So it kicked off as a management consultancy focused on helping B2B organisations get off legacy mountain. So we’re all drowning in legacy, legacy tech, legacy processes, legacy mindsets. So focusing really on the gaps between product marketing, sales and success. Both the siloed humans and the siloed tech stacks, and soon to be unleashing some tech to support that hopefully later this year. So a lot of wins for functional area leaders within B2B to be slaying, if they just talk more to their compadres and other functional areas.

David McGuire:That sounds much needed. I can’t wait to see the tech as well. Maureen, before we answer this month’s question, would you mind telling the listener how they can get in touch with the show?

Maureen Blandford: Absolutely, you know I can. So listener if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn, or Twitter @radixcom. Or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email [email protected].

David McGuire: Perfectamundo! Thank you.

Matt Binny: I’m Matt Binny, freelance writer from Falmouth in Cornwall. My copywriting tips are as follows. When I’ve finished writing, I like to let it rest for a while; I go make lunch, a cup of tea, probably then another cup of tea. Then return with fresh eyes and improve. I always read copy out loud, very common tip for a reason as it’s very, very effective.

I also like to reread copy if I was someone with sort of no knowledge on the topic, or the product or service, and ask myself a few questions: “Does it tell me what I need to know?”, “Would I buy?” And also “Am I bored out of my mind?” is always a good one too.

Maureen Blandford: Thanks, Matt. Some things are classic for a reason and tips like that are popular because they really work. Now, who’s asking the question this month?

Announcer: Richard Hatheway, Senior Marketing Manager at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, asks: “I have influencers, decision makers and end users that I have to engage. So how do I determine what type of content to use for those different target audiences?”

David McGuire: Thanks, Richard. That’s something we content writers get asked a lot. So it’s great to have an opportunity to answer it on the show. B2B tech in particular has lots of potential audiences and big squiggly buyer journeys. So I caught up with Atlassian’s Head of Product Marketing for JIRA Software and Agile Solutions, Claire Drumond. And I started by asking her Richard’s question: just how do you figure out which content works, for which audience?

Claire Drumond: The best way to identify what content works for specific audiences is to ask your audience. And I think that we often forget in the digital world when we’re creating content that we actually can talk to customers and see what they think. So that’s one perspective on it.

Another way that I know that it’s working for a specific audience is, if there’s an action that we’re asking that audience to take, we can measure if they’re actually taking that action – whether it be to sign up for something, or if it’s just to read the next article, or if it’s just to scroll through the article. We create a lot of long-form content and I know that it resonates based off of some of those metrics.

And I also have the luxury of seeing content that I create resonate with a specific audience when it gets tweeted, and I get @ mentioned on Twitter or on LinkedIn. And if I’m lucky, it’ll spur a pretty awesome conversation in social media. So I hope that answers the question. It’s mostly just about tracking and seeing if there’s a specific action that you wanted the user to take, and if they’re taking it, then you know that it’s resonating. And if they’re not, then you need to tweak the content.

David McGuire: That’s interesting, because your metrics that you track are outcome-based then. They’re to do with the next thing, the next action, rather than just traffic or something like that.

Claire Drumond: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think traffic is not indicative of the success of the content itself. It just shows if you’ve been successful at distributing that content and getting people to it. So I think that traffic is an interesting indicator for if your content is going to rank in Google, or if it’s going to reach a wider audience. But I don’t think that it’s a great indicator of if the content itself resonates.

David McGuire: Sure. You were saying about asking your customers. What does that look like? I mean, do you literally call them up? Do you have a poll? How does that work?

Claire Drumond: So we have a really robust community and sometimes we will just poll the community and ask for feedback on the content before we actually publish it. And people love to give their feedback, they love to have been mentioned, and they love that we ask. And so it’s a nice two-way conversation.

And it’s a nice way for us to connect with our customers. And just make sure that whatever it is that we’re publishing, not only resonates with them, but it’s helpful, because we like to create a lot of content that actually helps people do their jobs.

David McGuire: Do you have a sense then of when you look at different audience groups, different people in the decision making unit – or maybe you’ve got decision makers over here and you’ve got budget holders over there, and you’ve got users somewhere else – do you see that different kinds of content resonate for different kinds of audience?

Claire Drumond: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So an example of that is we create a lot of content around Agile best practices, for example. And I know that this content isn’t for our primary buyers, because the buyers that are purchasing our products are looking for more specific details about the actual tech specifications, or the product or features. They’re not really looking for best practices.

However, the people that are the end users of our products need the best practices, because that will help them be successful with our products. So we know from talking to customers, that best practices are a really useful way for the end users to understand how to do Agile and how JIRA can help them. But you wouldn’t get a lot of tries, “try” clicks, from that content because those aren’t the buyers. They’re enabling it.

So I think we have to target different areas of the funnel with different types of content and that brings you closer to trying the product and being successful in the product. But it’s far beyond just a landing page that gets you to try the product as soon as possible. So we like to create content for basically every stage of the funnel, and there is a different person that will find that content useful at every stage in the funnel.

Something that I think is unique with Atlassian is that we think that buying our products and using our products is a team sport and so we make sure that we’re targeting the whole team and not just the buyer.

David McGuire: I think that’s really good advice for anyone. There’s so many complex – sales and kind of distributed decision making units going on in B2B, especially in tech. So when you’re thinking about different stages of the funnel, is that always different roles at different stages of the funnel? Or is it sometimes one person moving through a buying journey? Or is there a mix of those things?

Claire Drumond: I think it’s a mix. It can definitely be one person, especially in smaller teams, where they become aware of us because of maybe an ad or because we published Agile best practices, and they were looking to do some new Agile rituals within their team. And they come to us, and then they end up touching all of the content through every stage of the journey until they finally try the product. But I find it more common that it’s multiple people who are touching the content in the funnel.

David McGuire: So you’ve got all of these people, you’ve got all of these buying journeys, all of these funnel stages. How do you make sure you have every angle covered? I mean, is it even possible to do that?

Claire Drumond: I think it’s possible. And we rely really heavily on SEO research to see where there are gaps. So if you pull branded keywords, or associated keywords, non branded keywords that are associated with our product, like say “scrum boards” or something like that – that is related to the product, but not directly. And we realise that we aren’t ranking for those keywords, then I think there’s an opportunity there.

So we know that we should have content in this category, we know that there’s a decent amount of search volume for it. And we are being outranked by maybe a competitor, or maybe by scrum.org, or something like that. So it’s possible if you’re looking at your SEO research on a regular basis to see where the gaps are, and to continue to create content to fill those gaps.

And sometimes it’s your own content that’s ranking that you didn’t intend to rank for those keywords, and you wanted something else to be there, you want your customers to reach something that isn’t accessible. Then you have to basically try and figure out how to compete against yourself and rank over what is there – which we do a lot. We do a lot of that.

David McGuire: Yeah, that sounds like an interesting challenge. So if the marketer that’s listening to this has maybe limited resources for content or don’t have the luxury of producing the big mountains of content that you can produce at Atlassian, where should they focus? Would you say – is there one part of the audience or one funnel stage or something else? Where should they start?

Claire Drumond: I think that if you are just starting out, and you don’t have a lot of resources, I think you need to look at two areas of the funnel. One is, what are you creating content around to be a thought leader in that will help customers understand the concepts that are related to either your product or whatever it is that you’re trying to create a funnel for.

What is that category? What does it look like, from a competitive perspective? What does it look like, from your own perspective? What are you blogging about? And are you ranking for those related keywords? If you’re not, who is? And I think if you look at that competitive landscape for that theme or subject, you can pretty quickly understand where you need to start developing content, thought leadership content.

And I’m talking about evergreen content that’s going to stick around for a long time, not blog posts that are about what’s the latest thing in the news and are going to be irrelevant in a week. I don’t think that’s worth anybody’s time if you’re just starting out and you have limited resources.

So I would say look at that evergreen landscape and start there. And then of course, you also need to make sure that your branded keywords are also SEO optimised and that you have links to those pages so that you can continue to create some domain authority around your branded stuff because that’s the most critical. So I think, top of funnel thought leadership content and very bottom of funnel branded keywords. Those are the two places that I would focus your attention.

David McGuire: That’s great. That’s so helpful. Thank you. Is there anything else on this topic that you wanted to say to the listener that we haven’t already covered?

Claire Drumond: Sure, I think the only other piece of advice that I would give from a content strategy perspective is, if you only have 10 chips, and you need to figure out where’s the best bet, make sure that it’s what is the most useful for your customers, and not the most useful for you.

Because if you create content that is useful for your customers, you will always reap the benefits of that, versus what you think you want to write about. I guess just put your customers first, put yourself in their shoes, and I think your content strategy will follow.

David McGuire: Amazing. Amen to that. Thank you. Claire, if the listener wants to hear more from you, or from a content team at Atlassian, and get more kind of wisdom from you, is there somewhere they can kind of find you online?

Claire Drumond: Sure. You can follow me on LinkedIn at Claire Drumond or on Twitter, @clairedrumond. And I definitely post stuff on LinkedIn and on Twitter, sometimes. You can definitely keep up with us there. And I do podcasts and stuff like this pretty regularly, too. So if you follow me on Twitter, you’ll be able to see what I’m up to.

David McGuire: Oh, thanks again, Claire. That is a really helpful response to Richard’s question. Maureen, there is a lot to dig into there. Did Claire say something that resonated with you?

Maureen Blandford: Yeah, you know, that was really great. A couple of things for me in particular that I love her shining the spotlight on is – the first one is that remembering that we can actually talk to customers and see what they think.

I actually love when we see copy directly from customers, whether it’s quotes, or whether it’s you were just lifting their language and using it because I think the most attractive copy is the stuff that’s going to resonate the most with customers. And that’s a great way to get it is by actually talking to them.

And the other thing I think it can’t be said enough is outcomes. So when thinking about all the different folks you’re trying to connect with, keeping in mind their outcomes, rather than your stuff. I thought that was brilliant for her to cover.

David McGuire: Yeah, absolutely. So you can kind of measure the outcomes that you’re looking for. But also think about being helpful and the end game that your customer has in mind.

So I think part of the thing in B2B and part of the thing I wanted to talk to you about in particular is quite how complex the decision making unit can look like in a B2B organisation. I know this is something you have experience of. So are there particular audiences that you feel are more important than others – if you’re trying to move someone through your funnel?

Maureen Blandford: Yeah, one of the areas I think we miss as B2B marketers, and we partly miss it because it’s hard and we partly miss it because we’re drowning. And that is B2B influencers. So not Kim Kardashian style, not who we’re mostly seeing on TikTok, although those people are all great, too.

But when you think about growing your reach, and your influence, B2B influencers are huge for that because they have a trusted network of their own, that if they buy into what you’re promoting, or what you’re advancing, they will, often unpaid – I don’t think I’ve ever paid an influencer – they will scale that message. So you’re really able to grow your unpaid reach.

So, for instance, one of the strongest B2B influencer communities that I’ve seen on Twitter is kind of the CIO or the transformation influencer community. And boy, those folks are generous. And if you can be a valuable part of their conversation, you’re included and you’re scaled and they are then more likely to look at articles you’ve written or be willing to publish or cite your folks as trusted sources. So it’s complicated to get there. But once you do, if you put the work in, how they grow your unpaid reach is just, it’s phenomenal. And I think it’s an underused channel in B2B today.

David McGuire: That sounds amazing. So, where would the listener begin to find those people and begin to build those relationships?

Maureen Blandford: So for me, Twitter for B2B influencers is the best. I kind of think of Twitter as where the influencers live and LinkedIn is where kind of the real people live. So it’s not work I do on LinkedIn, I’m sort of active. But on Twitter, just start by listening to the conversations, and start to jump in as who you are, as opposed to your brand, although I suppose you could. I’ve always started kind of with the humans, and that’s what I recommend. And sometimes people will engage with you, and sometimes they won’t. And that’s not the point. The point is just to start planting seeds, and hearing what they’re talking about. Because then speaking of outcomes, you can then approach them based on the outcomes that you know they care about, because you’ve been listening and watching the space. So I would start on Twitter, and I would start by listening.

David McGuire: That sounds great. And obviously, you know, the buyer journey in B2B. I mean, it can take months and more sometimes. How do you keep your audience’s attention? How’s their attention span over something that long while they’re going through that process? If you have kind of only limited resources for content, how can you possibly cover that?

Maureen Blandford: Well, it is for me, the resource is time as opposed to money. And that can be hard when you’re juggling the 50 million things that marketers are expected to juggle on the regular.

So for me, the thing you have to think about influencer relations – it’s kind of like learning a new language – is if you invest the time to understand it at the beginning, the payoff is just exponential in the end. Once you know how to engage with influencers, you just do it as you breathe, it takes very little time during the day. But it does take time to get immersed in the short term. And I’m not sure how to quantify that really, except to say it takes time.

David McGuire: Time – the thing that we all have so much of. Thank you, that is really insightful, kind of adds another layer to the conversation. And insightful as ever, I’d have expected nothing less. So, thank you so much. Before we wrap up, though, there is time for some more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey King.

Ettie Bailey-King: Use affirmative language. So affirmative terms are words and phrases that are very clear, specific and positive. It’s words and phrases like saying “disabled person,” “has paraplegia,” “has schizophrenia,” “deaf person,” “autistic person”. This affirmative language is distinct from the kinds of negative and shaming language that you might have heard, potentially in the recent past, or when you were younger.

So negative and shaming terms might be a phrase like “retarded,” or using euphemistic language about someone’s disability and saying that they are “confined to a wheelchair,” for example. Well, it’s not true and it’s not accurate. Wheelchairs typically liberate people. So use affirmative language to make sure that you’re being accurate, and celebratory about difference.

Maureen Blandford: Thanks so much, Ettie. That’s definitely something we all need to keep in mind and, listener, you can hear more inclusive writing advice from Ettie next time. Thanks, also to Claire Drumond and to Matt Binny for sharing your advice in this episode. And thanks to Richard Hatheway for the question. We hope you found the answer useful.

David McGuire: And thank you, Maureen for being such a brilliant guest co-host, as ever. I hope it hasn’t been too painful an experience this time.

Maureen Blandford: It’s always a pleasure, David. Always a pleasure. Thank you.

David McGuire: Oh, bless you – cheque’s in the post. Remember listener, it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer email a voice memo to [email protected]. Or find us on social media.

I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then make good content, and remember Sun Tzu said: “If you know your audience, and you know yourself, you need not fear the result of 100 blog posts”. But then again, he also said: “Don’t believe every quote you read on the internet”.

David and Maureen: Goodbye!

The post B2BQ&A 107: Which kinds of content work for which B2B audiences? appeared first on Radix.

This month’s question gets to the heart of what it means to be a B2B copywriter: the tension between our technical subject matter, and the need to be compelling, engaging, and clear….

Wait. Didn’t we cover this already?

You might remember last time, we asked Katherine Wildman of Haydn Grey and WeTransfer’s Robyn Collinge:“How can I take a fairly dry – some would say boring – non-sexy service, such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something people actually want to read?”

The question came from Dave Briggs, marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors. And Dave, we’ve got another answer for you. We wanted a perspective from the client’s side, so we got in touch with Brian Macreadie, who has a long history of making legal stuff interesting as Head of Marketing at Addleshaw Goddard.

You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.

Often, topics that seem dry on the surface aren’t actually anywhere near as boring as you thought. Take law: “I think the law is pretty sexy,” says Brian. “It’s an industry full of incredibly smart, busy, often pressured people making really big risk-decisions to keep companies safe. And so I’ve always found it to be alive with emotive issues and human angles.”

If you’re looking for an interesting angle, focus on outcomes or barriers to progress that potential clients will care about. Brian explains: “If we can find sources of tension in our client’s worlds and offer a strong opinion about that, it’s likely to be more evocative.”

Brian’s time-honoured approach is to “hire a great agency and let them do their thing”. But if a creative approach is going to provoke a response in your audience, you should it expect it to challenge you too.

“If the ideas that we get pitched by our agencies don’t make us equally excited and nervous, we’re probably not pushing things hard enough to stand out,” he warns. “If a piece of content of a piece of marketing doesn’t actually move us, and I mean  genuinely evoke a smile, or a wow, or some serious intrigue, it almost certainly won’t move the reader or listener either.”

1:01 – We pose Dave Brigg’s question to Brian Macreadie

1:50 – Brian shares his thoughts on turning marketing on its head

6:37 – David shares some thoughts too

To get your question answered, just send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

David McGuire: Let’s have a bonus episode about making boring B2B subjects interesting. And this time, let’s ask Brian Macreadie at Addleshaw Goddard.

Hello listener, you are extremely welcome to – well, let’s call it episode 106-and-a-half of B2BQ&A, the podcast that goes in search of an answer to your question about B2B content writing. My name is David McGuire, I’m Creative Director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency. And as it’s just a sort of mini episode, I don’t actually have a guest co-host this time. We’ll put that right next time.

You might remember last time we answered this question from Dave Briggs…

Dave Briggs: My name is Dave Briggs. I’m the marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors in Plymouth. And my question is “How can I take a fairly dry – and some might say boring – non-sexy subject, such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something that people actually want to read?”

David: We got some brilliant answers from Katherine Wildman and Robin Collinge but they are both copywriters. So I thought to give us a marketer’s perspective, I got in touch with someone that knows this territory really well and who has long experience of making legal stuff interesting. That’s Brian Macreadie, the Head of Marketing at Addleshaw Goddard, and Brian was kind enough to send us this…

Brian McCreadie: Hi, I’m Brian Macreadie. I’m the Head of Marketing at an international law firm called Addleshaw Goddard, and I was asked the question, “How can I take a fairly dry – some might say, boring – non-sexy service, such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something people actually want to read?”

I guess I have to protest before I provide an answer; I think the law is pretty sexy. Without it, trade can’t happen and it’s an industry full of incredibly smart, busy, often pressured people making really big risk decisions to keep companies safe. And so I’ve always found it to be alive with emotive issues and human angles.

So if anybody wants a fresh perspective on the law, you can go to our law firm website, https://www.addleshawgoddard.com/poetry/ and get a whole bunch of fresh perspectives where we’ve invited poets to offer what they think about the law. So just sharing that in case anybody wants a different viewpoint on the law.

But back to the question, how do we find more interesting angles on topics that might on the surface seem quite dry. So I’ve worked in several B2B industries, and the same answers apply to law as other subjects, I find.

So one possibility is to not necessarily focus on the law and instead, focus on how the law impacts people. If we can find that the outcomes that potential clients and buyers care about, or their barriers to progress, then that can become the focus of what we want to write about. If we can find sources of tension in our client worlds and offer a strong opinion about that it’s likely to be more evocative.

So a process I often follow is to consider the human that we’re aiming to help have a clearer view on how our topics impact that person, and bring those impacts to life in the most interesting way possible, perhaps using stories or humour, provocation, strong opinions. Essentially, we’re just looking for the most interesting aspects of the topic, and then bring that interesting aspect to life somehow.

So just a couple of quick examples, maybe to elaborate on that. So my team and I once delivered a real estate law seminar, where we looked at what was changing in real estate. But to make that point more provocatively, we twisted the theme to focus on what was turning real estate on its head for the people that worked in the industry. And then to further bring that to life, when guests arrived at our physical seminar, we suspended a city upside down over the heads of the people as they walked into the room just to kind of make the point.

Just one other example may be, at the start of the pandemic, we wanted to offer fresh perspectives to clients on how to transact amid all the uncertainty. So we summarised the top five to seven issues that decision makers should consider when delivering major corporate transactions back in that surreal environment we found ourselves in during the initial lockdown. And then to bring that to life in the most interesting and relatable way we brought the surreal times to life of the pandemic using Picasso-inspired imagery.

So those are a couple of ways forward and and us marketers don’t necessarily need to come up with those creative ideas or those leaps. We don’t need to do that ourselves. If we each have creative ideas then great, but we’re of course often better served focusing I find on the objectives and the strategy and the calls to action and the results. So if we each need some new inspiration, some new creative ideas, the time-honoured answer is to hire a great agency and let them do their thing.

But there is one last little imperative of that I wanted to share, if the ideas that we get pitched by our agencies don’t make us equally excited and nervous, we’re probably not pushing things hard enough to stand out. Every marketer that I know, their threshold for what makes them nervous varies; I find the competence to push boundaries comes with time. So the convenient truth is just to push it as hard – that’s right for us and right for the brands that we work with.

But I think we must each always remember that if a piece of content, if a piece of marketing doesn’t actually move us, and I mean by that, genuinely evoke a smile, or a wow, or some serious intrigue, it’s almost certainly won’t move the reader or listener either.

And just to close, you know, the writer Robert Frost offered some sage advice on that when he said,: “No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader; no surprise for the writer, there’s no surprise for the reader.” So if it doesn’t surprise or evoke us in any way, it won’t evoke the reader. So we do have to find that creative twist ourselves or with agencies.

I hope that helps. But just want to say one last shout out for the law. It’s an amazing B2B sector to work in.

David McGuire: Oh, Brian, I knew you’d be great at this. Thank you so much. And I couldn’t agree more: it is not about somehow making a subject sexy or interesting. It’s understanding what’s already inherently interesting about it, and bringing that to the fore. And a lot of the time, that is the human element.

And I love the point about needing to feel a little bit nervous about your ideas, but that everyone’s mileage may vary, of course. Plus, Robert Frost! What’s not to like?

Dave, I hope you’re satisfied not just with last month’s answers, but also with the insight that Brian’s given you here. For those of us who aren’t lucky enough to work in commercial law, well, there’s plenty we can apply there too.

So very short and sweet episode this month. We’ll be back answering another in a bit more detail next time. And remember, it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer email a voice memo to [email protected] or find us on social media. You can also get in touch with us on Twitter @Radixcom or on LinkedIn.

Next time we’ll dive into a question and a bit more detail with all the normal stuff like copywriting pro tips that you’d expect. I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A.

The post B2BQ&A 106.5: How to make boring B2B subjects more interesting (part 2) appeared first on Radix.

This month’s question gets to the heart of what it means to be a B2B copywriter: the tension between our technical subject matter, and the need to be compelling, engaging, and clear.

Dave Briggs, marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors, asks: “How can I take a fairly dry – some would say boring – non-sexy service, such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something people actually want to read?”

To answer, we needed some serious inspiration. So we put Dave’s question to B2B copywriter and all-round creative firebrand Katherine Wildman of Haydn Grey – and as our guest co-host we called upon the woman behind WeTransfer‘s breezy tone of voice, senior creative copywriter Robyn Collinge.

This episode also includes a writing tip from freelance copywriter Mel Barfield (also known by her alter-ego AllCopyMel) and some more inclusive writing advice from language consultant Ettie Bailey-King.

You can read a full transcript of this episode at the bottom of this page.

To see what’s interesting about a subject, we have to really understand it. And often, that means we have to ask the big, dumb questions about what it is, what it does, and why. Making experts answer those questions clearly is a real skill, and it can take a willingness to look more ignorant than you are. (Katherine calls it “applying intelligent naïveté”, and that’s a phrase I’m 100% stealing for my next meeting.)

Meanwhile, Robyn shared that WeTransfer uses a similar approach: ELI5, or “explain it like I’m five“.

The most exciting part of a product or service is usually the people who use it, and what they use it for. Failing that, it might be what might happen if you don’t use it. Just like Katherine’s dad used to make his insurance work interesting by telling stories about climbing Huddersfield’s mill chimneys, we can hook the reader into what we’re saying more easily if we illustrate it with a narrative.

It’s not just about what you say; it’s how you say it. The language we choose can do a lot to set content apart, surprise and entertain the reader, or just make their life easy. In some B2B markets, just saying something clearly is enough to make you stand out. But as Katherine points out, we need to strike a “lovely balance” where we don’t overcomplicate things, but we do still use the right terminology to be taken seriously.

Helpfully, Katherine’s provided us with links to several of the things she mentioned in our chat…

1:15 – Meet this month’s guest co-host: WeTransfer’s Robyn Collinge

2:30 – Copywriting pro tip: Melanie Barfield on using the Hemingway editor

3:19 – We hear Dave Briggs‘ question, and put it to Katherine Wildman

18:30 – Robyn shares her perspective on making B2B interesting

27:15 – Ettie Bailey-King explains why euphemisms reinforce stigma

B2BQ&A is your show, and we’d love to feature you on a future podcast.

Send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And if there are any other thoughts you’d like to share, you can find us on Twitter @radixcom.

Podcast editing and music by Bang and Smash.

Dave Briggs: How can I take a fairly dry, some might say boring, non-sexy service such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something that people actually want to read?

Robyn Collinge: That’s a brilliant question. Let’s ask Katherine Wildman from Haydn Grey!

David McGuire: Hello listener; you are extraordinarily Welcome to B2BQ&A, the podcast where we go in search an answer to your question about B2B content writing. This is episode 106.

Robyn: In a moment, B2B copywriter Katherine Wildman will share the methods she uses to get to the bottom of what’s interesting about boring and complicated companies. We’ll also get a copywriting tip from Melanie Barfield, and some more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.

David: Before all of that, though, we should introduce ourselves. My name is David McGuire. I’m creative director at Radix Communications, the B2B writing agency, and we have a brilliant guest co-host this month. If you work in marketing, it’s someone whose words you have almost certainly read, basically on a daily basis. It’s WeTransfer’s, senior copywriter Robyn Collinge! Robyn, welcome.

Robyn: Thank you. Hello. I’m unnecessarily excited to be here. At the risk of making my life sound way more put together than it actually is, I mentioned to David that I had just put being on my first podcast and a list of goals for this year. So here I am.

David: That’s amazing. It’s like serendipity. Here we make wishes come true. That’s what we do. Well, would you like to perform your first official duty as guest co-host and let the listener know how they can get in touch with us?

Robyn: Yeah, I can certainly try. So listeners if you have any comments or suggestions you can find Radix on LinkedIn or Twitter @Radixcom… or if you want us to answer your question on a future episode, record a quick voice note and send it by email to [email protected].

David: Done like a pro. Sounds you’ve been doing it for years.

Melanie Barfield: Hi, I’m Melanie Barfield, aka @AllCopyMel. I’m a freelance copywriter. And my copy tip for beginners is to just chuck your copy into the Hemingway editor. It’s at Hemingwayapp.com. And it highlights any issues in different colors like where your sentences are too long, or where you could shorten and simplify your copy to make it more punchy. You can’t take it all as gospel, but it’s a really quick, free, visual way to see at a glance where you could simplify your copy.

Robyn: Thanks, Melanie. That’s a great tip. I’m a bit of a slave to Google Docs myself, but I’ll definitely give it a try. Now who is asking this month’s question?

Dave: My name is Dave Briggs. I’m the marketing manager at Nash & Co Solicitors in Plymouth. And my question is, how can I take a fairly dry and some might say boring, non-sexy service such as law, which is often laden with jargon, and turn it into something that people actually want to read?

Robyn: I love this question because I’m such a huge advocate for writing like you speak. I’ll tell anyone that will listen that one of the biggest misconceptions about writing or like communicating in general is that using unnecessarily long and complex words will make you sound smarter. When in fact, I think it just does the opposite. And it’ll just intimidate and alienate your audience. So I can’t wait to hear from Katherine as she tackles this question.

David: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think as B2B and tech copywriters, ourselves, we spend all this time making dull things interesting and complicated things simple, but maybe we don’t spend enough time breaking down the “how” of that; how we do that in practice. So as you say, to answer Dave’s question, I contacted one of the most creative B2B copywriters, I know, Katherine Wildman at Haydn Grey. And I started by asking her Dave’s question: how do you take a non-sexy, boring subject that’s laden with jargon and turn it into something people actually want to read?

Katherine Wildman: I was thinking about this and my dad was an insurance underwriter, which is about as dry as it gets, isn’t it? But he used to come home from work and tell us stories about climbing up the mill chimneys in Huddersfield where I grew up. And he would only tell us when he’d done that, he wouldn’t tell mum he was about to, but he would tell us, and he would tell us about the people in the mill and the people who worked there. And it was always, always, always about the people that he talked to.

And I think the thing that I approach any project like this with is just a raft of very simple questions. And I saw a great thing on LinkedIn that said, “We don’t ask daft questions; it’s called applying intelligent naivety”. And it’s something…

David: Ooh, I like that.

Katherine: Yeah. Isn’t it lovely? It’s really nice. And people go, like, you know, “Ooh! Aren’t you clever”, which is always nice. And I think it’s about sitting with people in the room and making them, forcing them, to break it down for you. Which means you have to pretend to be far more ignorant than you might be.

Or you might be extraordinarily ignorant. I did a project about cryptocurrency recently. And I had to ask a lot of really basic questions, which is, “But what do you mean? But what do you mean? So what is it? So what? Why does that do that?” And the secret to making people break it down, which I find very hard, is to shut up. And just look like you don’t know what they’re saying, until you understand what they’re saying and don’t pretend to know.

So it’s a question of making sure that you could then take it to another parent in the playground, or to your elderly mom, or your grandma and say, “Oh, I’m doing this project. And what they do is XYZ”, and until you can break it down to XYZ. So it’s not X with the flourish, Y with a flourish, Z with, you know, some little acronyms thrown in; it has to be broken down so that you understand it. And once you understand it, and you can feed it back to them, then you’ve absolutely cracked it.

And then how you then make that glossy and interesting, I think is you, you throw it back to them. And then you sort of get a feel for where they want to go with their tone of voice. So whether they want to be edgy, or they want to be very, very sturdy run of the mill, or perhaps for some people, just the simple fact of breaking it down into Janet-and-John English is enough to make them stand out.

So at that point, I would look at what other companies in the field are doing in the UK and abroad. You’ll find like particularly Australia, New Zealand companies can be really quite wacky where we won’t go that far. But you can see where you could take it and see where you can pitch them in the middle of all the the competition that they’re trying to gain business from or do business alongside, how can you make them stand out?

So then you bring along, you know, the Voicebox kit? Nick’s brilliant kit, where he’s broken down these 11 voices? And you can show…

David: For the for the audience, this Nick Parker’s kit, yeah?

Katherine: Yes, sorry. So Nick Parker’s brilliant Voicebox kit, which, mine is getting ragged around the edges. And Nick has these brilliant examples of how the financial companies write about themselves, how do insurance companies write about themselves, and you can see people’s faces light up in the room where they go, “Oh, so we could do that!”

They’ve never thought that they could do anything other than this “business-focused solutions”, all of the stuff that we wade through every day, and become a little bit more human and a little bit more approachable and a little bit more understandable. And then it makes life easier for everybody. And then and they can choose and you can see you can read the temperature in the room as to where they want to go with it.

And all of a sudden, you’ve got this very dry, turgid, verbose, reams and reams of copy that become like a conversation. And as soon as you’re having conversation, somebody wants to engage with you.

David: Absolutely. And one of the things I was interested is that you were talking very much about how your dad was telling stories about how the, you know, not that so much the insurance but what was being insured and what the insurance meant. Are there kind of… once you’ve got the way that you’re writing about the subject, then there’s the issue of what you write about, right?

Katherine: Yes. So then it’s a question of asking people to paint you a picture. So if they have, for example, policy insurance in place, what happens if something goes horribly wrong? And then what happens if they have this policy in place and how they can sleep at night? It’s all those human emotions where you’re basically wanting to either save people time, save them peace of mind, save the money, make them money? How does their life improve by having this in place?

And again, it’s those Janet-and-John flinty details where somebody can come to it afresh and just read it and understand straightaway what you’re talking about. They’re not having to try and decipher the language. And it just makes it simple and accessible and your work is to break down those horrible pages and pages of words to just go “Actually, what does that actually say?”

And usually, the ratio is usually about sort of six paragraphs to half a paragraph, really. And there’ll be a bit nervous about that, because that’s very bold and scary. But also it saves so much time. Particularly if you’ve then got a messaging framework in place, and then everybody’s lives are just so much easier.

And I think another layer that I would throw on when you’re doing your competitor research is if there’s something where you can look at reviews online. And I know Jo at Copyhackers talks about this, which is mining for voice of customer. So it could be that you’re looking at Trustpilot, it could be that you’re looking at Google ads, it could be that you’re looking at what people are saying about the competitors, and what they do well, can you take that line and apply it to your company?

And ask the people in the room why they come to work every day. What is it that gets them out of bed? What is it that makes them feel like they’re making a difference? Because people in big businesses don’t tend to get asked questions like that, you know, “How did you get here? Why are you here? What makes you, you know, sit on the train for an hour every day again, now, to come and do this? It’s not just so that you can pay the mortgage. What is it that lights your candle about it? And can you share a little bit of that passion?” Because people will have a story to tell. And there’ll be something, there’ll be a nugget, that hand on the door in the doctor’s surgery where they turn round and they just say something and you’ve just got that gold dust, you’ve got that line.

David: Yeah, absolutely. Is there an element with something like commercial law, for example, where you need to use a certain amount of the right language or else people might feel that you’re not taking it seriously, or they might not take you seriously? Because I know, from a stakeholder’s kind of point of view, they’ll go, “If we don’t say the right words that all our competitors are saying…” then you know, the audience… if the audience is already in a world where some jargon is fairly established, is there a balance, there?

Katherine: There’s a lovely balance to be achieved. And as well, Mr. Google needs the words doesn’t he? Mr. Google needs the search words, but I think there’s a way that you can scatter them, rather than drown us in them.

Vikki Ross put a beautiful post on LinkedIn just last night about “You need to be careful where you pitch the language because you’re trying to say something that’s too technical for your audience, you’re going to exclude that audience. And if you say something that’s too simple, they don’t want to be talked down to her or explained to.” So there’s that pitch of where you’re going to be and as well paying heed to Mr. Google, who does need to find this lovely company in the midst of everything. It’s making sure that the people who need the product can get the product.

Catherine Every, again, did a brilliant post about a crypto ad, and you read this ad that she posted on LinkedIn; wouldn’t have a clue. And I think as copywriters we understand quite a lot about quite a lot of things. I looked at this thing, I thought that could be in a foreign language for all I know. But what was so clever and what Catherine highlighted was the people that need to know will know that that’s exactly for them. So it cuts out everybody else. So you’re speaking exactly to your audience.

And that’s again, that’s your audience research. That’s understanding how far down the buyer journey people are. If they’re doing policy three, do they really need to read these documents again? No. Do you need to attach them? Yes. Can you make their lives easier? Yeah, probably very much so. Even if it’s just the way that you lead into, and some people do it, and they’re quite irreverent, you know,”Read this later”.

David: Are there go-to questions or approaches that you have? You know, if you’re trying to pull out what’s interesting in a dull subject?

Katherine: So I always start every project with you get as many people as possible on the call, from the really senior people, to the sales team, to the marketers to everybody.

And my first question is, “So what do you do?” And then the secret is to shut up. And they will all, they’ll wait for everybody else to chip in. And the secret is to shut up until everybody has said every little last thing they could possibly say and then they’ll chip in again. And your thing is to just be quiet.

And then my next question is “So why should I care?” And it’s it gets to be… People say after I’ve drilled down into these, you know, it was like a therapy session. And I’ve had people in tears. I’ve had people resolving longstanding problems that have been going on in the business, but it’s a question of asking “why”.

And then this is another Copyhackers tip, which is “So that… So that… You do that so that…” and it gets people right down into the absolute essence of why they do what they do. And how and for whom. And it’s you just… people come up with things that are really surprising. And it’s a question of until you absolutely understand that you can’t go any further down that particular line, you keep asking.

And for me, the hard thing is to not pretend that I know and to presume, so have confidence that the people that you’re talking to know what they’re doing and why. And you are just there to be the mirror and to ask questions and to get them to tell you about it.

David: It’s that, what was it, intelligent naivety? It’s that thing, isn’t it? That sometimes I think that we have as external writers, we kind of have a licence to be the dumbest person in the room.

Katherine: Totally.

David: If you’re an in-house marketer, saying, “I don’t know what that means”, even if you’re pretending not to know what that means, must feel really painful because you’re undermining your status. Whereas we, you know, we have a licence to say, “What does that mean?” And even more cheekily, we have the licence to ask “So what? Okay, why do I care?” Or when someone goes, “Oh, we’re the best at this”, “Can you prove that?” No, we have to ask rude questions and stupid questions.

Katherine: Absolutely.

David: And that naivety is a superpower.

Katherine: It’s an absolute superpower. You’re absolutely right. And I’ll tag team. I work a lot with an art director, Keith Noble, and he and I will tag team until you’ve absolutely drill down. And if they won’t let me into the nuggets, Keith will try. And by the end of it, we’ve just got to the heart of it. So he’s got his design ideas. I’ve got my writing hook.

But also it’s that scenario thing. And these are all things, like…. the first copywriting book was Andy Maslen’s, “Write to Sell”; it’s the one book I’ll never lend to anybody. It’s full of squiggles, turned over corners, it is… That’s the thing that doesn’t leave the bookshelf. And he does that scenario asking in that. “So what happens if I come to you for this product? What happens if I don’t come to you for this product? What won’t happen if I come to you for this product? What will happen if I come to you for this product?” And by the time you’ve got to the fourth one, they’re telling you all the lines that you need for the website.

So it’s… Andy did psychology and you can so tell in the way that he writes because it’s all people. It’s all really quite simple what we do. But fascinating, because it’s all people, same thing. And everything is connected all the way through. So I’m sure you find this as well. You go from project to project to project and people start telling you the same things. You’re like, “I did on the last project. I’ve just learned about this”, because the trends emerge in business, and we just get to kind of sometimes we ride the wave, we’re a little bit ahead of it for people and other times we’re catching up.

So yeah, we do we have licence, licence to thrill.

David: Thanks again, Katherine; that’s a really helpful response to Dave’s question. I’ll put links to Haydn Grey and all the other resources you mentioned in the show notes. Robyn, what stood out for you there?

Robyn: Quite a lot, actually. I really love everything Katherine said. And I think particularly this idea of asking the basic questions, like I’m such an advocate for asking stupid questions, or as Katherine put it, applying intelligent naievety. It’s so good.

David: I’ve been searching for that phrase.

Robyn: I can’t wait to casually drop into my next meeting.

David: Yeah, absolutely. Just just as copywriters you get to be the dumbest person in the room. And I think as we said, it’s just a superpower. That licence to ask that slightly rude question that as grown-up business people were not supposed to ask, right?

Robyn: Yeah. And I think I’m actually really glad you guys spoke about that. Because sometimes I think as a writer, I worry that I come off a bit rude if I’m in meetings with people and briefings and I’m sitting there going, “Yeah, but why? Why is this important? Why should I care?” And so it’s, like, really reassuring to know that other people also sit there and ask these kinds of stupid questions.

David: I genuinely once did a talk where people I, I was speaking at an event and I smuggled I’d got my kids out of school and I smuggled my kids into the event. And I got someone on stage to explain what they do, and they were an accountant. And they’re like “Ah, we do this and that” and I literally put my like five year old daughter in front of him just to go “Why? Why?” until he said something that she could understand like why you do these things. And then I had my son who was slightly older and slightly ruder, and I got him to just kind of keep asking, “So what?”

Robyn: I love that, like getting your kids in there an early age. It’s funny, you should say that as well. Because something we often do that we transfer as like a little exercise, this type of stuff is ELI5. Have you heard of that before?

David: No, no, I haven’t.

Robyn: Erm, so it’s a little acronym, which usually I’m pretty anti-acronym, stands for “Explain it like I’m five”. So I think it comes from like a Reddit thread, where people just kind of go to get simple explanations to like, I guess, concepts or problems or questions. But I guess the clue’s in the name, the idea is that you want to explain something, the way you’d explain it to a five year old or in a way that a five year old would understand.

So like sometimes if we’re getting a brief in about a new tool, or a new feature at WeTransfer, we’ll do it as an exercise with like our product marketing managers and break down this thing, the way that we would explain it so a five year old would understand it.

Or sometimes in my head, I think as well, “Would my grandparents understand this?” Because one of the things about WeTransfer with our free product our audience is so broad, so we have to make sure everyone can kind of understand what we’re talking about. And so yeah, like breaking down functionality and explaining the way you could do a five year old’s a really good kind of thought starter, for when you’re writing copy about things.

David: But that’s the starting point for the copy, if you like, not the finishing point, because obviously, you have a lot, you know, your pro users and your bread and butter users, you know, are going to be kind of, you know, marketers, designers, you know, experts in their job and stuff as well. Right?

Robyn: Yeah. And then we do actually have a slightly different tone of voice for our pro audience, which I really like.

So we have a paid subscription service at WeTransfer, WeTransfer Pro, we also just dropped, WeTransfer Premium as well, where you get unlimited everything. And but yeah, with our kind of pro and premium audience, we know that these kind of small business owners, creatives, they work in agencies, so we’re able to be a bit more kind of tongue-in-cheek sometimes with our copy and really make specific references to the creative industry. Like, we can make jokes about like kerning and pixels.

And we understand it will alienate some people, but the type of people we’re going after will get the reference. And, you know, we can kind of empathise like, “Oh, we know working with clients can sometimes suck, but we’re here to help you!” They’re just these little nuggets that we know this audience will relate to.

David: Absolutely; so much is about kind of knowing your audience. So how do you take it from being easy to understand and being clear, and to actually take it into something that’s engaging and that people actually actively enjoy?

Robyn: Yeah, it’s quite… It’s tricky to kind of put your finger on it sometimes, especially because I started at WeTransfer as the very first copywriter, like four years ago. So I actually got to establish the whole tone of voice and kind of put that together. So it’s largely based on my own personality. You put it into a formula. “Okay, this is how we make it sound appealing” because it’s just kind of, “Okay, how does it sound in my head?” which makes you know, documenting our style guide and stuff difficult.

But I do have like a few go-to methods that aren’t just “Get inside my head and see how I’m talking about it.” I think I can’t remember where I heard at first, so apologies if I’m like misreferencing someone, but I read this idea that copywriting is rarely about writing about products, it’s more writing about problems. And Katherine does kind of touch on that when she talks about finding the human emotion in what you’re writing about finding your brand’s “why”.

Because when you’re writing, I guess a landing page copy or even email copy, something where you’re trying to convert someone, you’re not really writing about what your product is, you should be writing about the problem it’s solving for them. So how is your service or product, making their lives easier? What’s it solving for them? What frustration are you removing from their life? Like how will their lives get progressively worse if they didn’t invest in whatever you’re selling? And that’s kind of something I’d keep in mind. You shouldn’t be writing about your product, you should be framing it as “What’s the problem and how are you the solution?”

And also trying to avoid just saying “we” and “I” and talking about yourself; you should always kind of be writing in the second person. And yeah, using things like “you” and “your” and yeah speaking directly to people.

David: Absolutely. Like I used to… write a lot of work in the public sector. And, you know, there was a lot of kind of very kind of jargon-filled stuff. And, you know, at the time I was writing PR, I was having to get into the newspapers and stuff. I was like, well, fundamentally, why should people care? And usually anything that you as an organisation want to communicate, there’s a reason that you’re communicating it, right? You need to tell somebody, and they need to know, because of something. And actually, it’s the “Why, why are you…”

There are very few things that are actually intrinsically boring, you know, that that actually, it’s how they wrapped up, it’s how they’re presented. But when you get down to it, somebody needs to care about it, because it makes a difference to them. And why do they need to know?

Is that kind of what it comes down to? Who, who you’re talking to? How would they talk about it? And why should they care? If you got those things, you know, then you’re automatically making it a bit more engaging, I think.

Robyn: Yeah. And I think what you’re saying about nothing’s ever boring, it’s… all of the copywriters I know, are just inherently curious people, like they want to get to the bottom of things, you know, we end up in late night Google and Wikipedia rabbit holes, like about some random subject, and I think, kind of getting that passion to translate to whatever you’re writing about is a real skill. And, yeah, quite often, just breaking things down to their simplest format.

And, you know, I had a previous manager who, whenever I’d write copy would just be like, “Okay, but what are you trying to say? What are you trying to say? What, Why? Why should I care? Why should I? Say it in less, like say it in…” and I think he would say like, “Say it in three sentences. Now try and say three words” and really get to the core of what you want to say. I think once you can do that, yeah, you can. You can get people to care about it.

David: Before we wrap up, there’s time for some more inclusive writing advice from Ettie Bailey-King.

Ettie Bailey-King: No euphemisms. Steer clear of euphemisms, coded language, or awkward, anxious workarounds for talking about people’s identities. Just be clear, and specific and accurate. Euphemisms signal discomfort, and they reinforce stigma.

If you’re not sure whether something is considered a euphemism, then you might want to run it by some people from that affected community. Or you could very quickly check on social media and see who’s using that language. Is it being used by people from that community? And are they using it with what looks like energy, enthusiasm and pride? If not, it’s potentially the kind of euphemism that’s used by people outside the community, and just reinforces otherness.

So some examples of euphemism here might be the way that many white people will use the word “diversity” when they actually should be talking about anti racism, or anti white supremacy, or anti oppression. Or the euphemisms might be terms that you might have heard in the past, for example, “handicapped”, which used to be a phrase that was used for disabled people.

Robyn: Thanks Ettie for that tip, and listener, you can hear more inclusive writing advice from Ettie next time. Thanks, also to Katherine and Melanie, for sharing your advice in this episode, and thanks to Dave for the question. Hope you found our answers useful.

David: And thanks to you, Robyn; you’ve been an awesome co-host. Delighted to have been your first podcast experience. I hope it’s not been too traumatic.

Robyn: No, honestly, I’m thrilled. Had a great time.

David: Absolutely come back any time. And remember, listener: it could be your question we answer in a future episode. If you have a question for B2BQ&A to answer, email a voice memo to podcast@radix -communications.com, or find us on social media.

I’ll see you next time for another B2BQ&A. Until then, make good content and remember: no subject is inherently boring, though I did once write about a company who drilled very precise holes in very hard metal and that… yeah, I have to concede that one.

David and Robyn: Bye!

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