In this Betwixt episode, Deb Gregory talks with Lacy Finn Borgo—spiritual director, Renovaré faculty member, and longtime companion to children and families at Haven House, a transitional housing community in Colorado. Lacy is the author of Spiritual Conversations with Children and Life with God for Children, books that have helped many of us reimagine children not as empty vessels to be filled, but as natural contemplatives who can lead us deeper into the heart of God.

We explore how children pray with their whole bodies, how play becomes a doorway into God’s presence, and how adults can learn to listen with humility and curiosity. Lacy shares stories from her work with children navigating trauma, her research on projection and imagination, and the surprising ways children model freedom, resilience, and unselfconscious connection with God.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom at ivpress.com/spiritual-wayfinding

In This Episode

• How children naturally engage God through play, imagination, and embodied movement
• Why adults often over-teach and under-listen
• The role of projection in helping children express their inner world
• How walking side-by-side opens deeper conversations
• Embodied practices that help children (and adults) regulate anxiety
• What children teach us about failure, freedom, and spiritual courage

Trail Marker: Why Poohsticks Works

Midway through the episode, we pause to explore the Pooh Thought-Sticks meditation—a practice Lacy and I reference early on. We look at why this simple act of naming a thought, choosing a stick, and releasing it into moving water helps the nervous system shift from defensiveness to openness. Rather than erasing or fighting difficult thoughts, Poohsticks teaches us to acknowledge them, accept them, and entrust them to God’s care.

You can download the full Poohsticks practice from Spiritual Wayfinding here: → LINK

Resources Mentioned

Spiritual Conversations with Children — Lacy Finn Borgo

Life with God for Children — Lacy Finn Borgo

Spiritual Wayfinding — Deb GregoryConnect with Lacy: Good Dirt Ministries | Substack | Facebook | Instagram

Connect with Deb: Flourish Spiritual Direction | Substack | Facebook | Instagram

Soundtrack Credits:

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

In this episode, Deb Gregory talks with Chris Hoklotubbe and Danny Zacharias about Indigenous Christian wisdom and the role of land in shaping faith, community, and Scripture. We explore embodied practices of gratitude and reciprocity, Turtle Island hermeneutics, and the ways reconnecting with the land transforms how we read the Bible and live well.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off SpiritualWayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Key insights include:

• The importance of land-based spiritual practices rooted in Indigenous stories like Sky Woman and Turtle Island.
• The significance of the circle dance as a metaphor for community interpretation of scripture and life with God.
• How biblical stories of creation and covenant invite us into a relational view of land, moving beyond exploitation.
• Disrupting doctrines like the Doctrine of Discovery with asset-based Indigenous theologies recognizing God’s presence everywhere.
• Practical embodied practices: slowing down, saying thankyou, touching trees, and honoring the land as a spiritual act of gratitude.
• The role of gratitude and recognition in fostering belonging, empathy, and a sacred interconnectedness.
• The integration of Indigenous wisdom into Christian spirituality as a way to live well with all our relations.

Timestamps:
00:00 - Welcome and introduction to guests and themes of land, community, and spirituality
02:09 - The embodied nature of land connection and its scientific backing
04:12 - Grounding in mountains, plains, and ocean—land as a space for prayer and presence
05:33 - Indigenous stories of Sky Woman, Turtle Island, and the land as a reciprocal gift
10:47 - The circle dance as a metaphor for interpretive community and scriptural engagement
16:42 - Co-authoring "Reading the Bible on Turtle Island" and the journey of cultural reclamation
20:23 - The meaning of the book's title and the land as a story of gratitude and interconnectedness
23:21 - Turtle Island hermeneutics: engagement with creation and Scripture as a relational act
25:29 - Challenging the Genesis 3 narrative with asset-based theology groundedin goodness
27:40 - Disrupting the Doctrine of Discovery with indigenous perspectives of land as God's gift
32:03 - The garden as a space of covenantal relationship and stewardship
35:13 - Embodied practices: gratitude, slowing down, and caring for trees and land
39:48 - Invitation for listeners to adopt land-based mindfulness and gratitude practices
43:56 - How land and nature deepen our relationship with God and the sacred story
45:50 - Concluding reflections and call to ongoing dialogue and action

• Resources & Links:Reading the Bible on Turtle Island (book)
• NAITS - NorthAmerican Institute for Indigenous Theological Studies

Connect with Deb Gregory: Instagram| Flourish Spiritual Direction Website

Connect with Chris Hoklotubbe: LinkedIn

Connect with Danny Zacharias: Personal Website

Soundtrack Credits:

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Documentary Nature Music by ViacheslavStarostin

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

In today’s episode, Deb Gregory is joined by Courtney Ellisto explore the deep connections between nature, our bodies, and our spiritual journeys. Through mindful birding practices and embracing the liminal spaces of change, they reveal how tending to the natural world can help us find peace, resilience, and a sense of divine presence amid life’s transitions.

In this episode:

• Courtney’s personal experience with birding as a spiritualpractice during a health and grief journey
• The sensory richness of birding and its embodied connectionto prayer and presence
• The metaphor of rising above narrow focus to panoramicvision for emotional and spiritual health
• How curiosity and receptivity open us to divine grace innature and in our lives
• The significance of liminal and ‘thin’ spaces wheretransformation and renewal happen
• Practical ways to cultivate stillness, attention, and wonderduring seasons of uncertainty
• The importance of embracing one’s unique interests aspathways to God's delight and presence
• Insights from Courtney’s books Looking Up and WeatheringChange on navigating grief and change through the natural world

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction: Navigating the spiritual life withembodied wisdom

01:12 - Exploring the spiritual practice of birding andnature connection

01:49 - Courtney’s identity and passions: birds, books, andfaith

03:06 - Bird walk as mindfulness: letting the birds ministerto us

03:42 - How health challenges led Courtney outdoors forrenewal

04:54 - How birding helps us become aware of God's presence

06:06 - Using multiple senses to deepen engagement withnature

06:40 - The gentle art of waiting, receiving, and centeringthrough birding

08:18 - The calming effects of being outdoors and observingbirds

09:09 - Faith as curiosity, wonder, and receptivity likebirding

09:34 - Letting go of trying to force faith and delightingin God’s gifts

10:28 - The role of joy and delight in discipleship &spiritual growth

11:00 - Embracing special interests as sacred pathways toGod

12:23 - Integrating passions like birding into spiritualpractices

13:39 - Courtney’s book Looking Up on grief andnatural world as balm

14:43 - Personal grief journey during her grandfather’spassing

16:03 - Scientific evidence of nature’s healing power ingrief and depression

17:00 - How awe walks foster humility and wonder

17:48 - The importance of perspective and humility inseasons of change

19:02 - The science behind panoramic vision and stressreduction during birdwatching

20:07 - Nature’s attentional resets and echoes of divinerenewal

21:32 - Courtney’s new book Weathering Change on thelessons of nature for navigating transformation

22:13 - How change impacts the body, cognition, and emotion

23:02 - Recognizing that both good and difficult changeswear us out

24:20 - Learning from animals’ acceptance of change andadaptation

25:46 - Cultivating curiosity and gentle engagement withchange

26:38 - The liminal space as a ‘thin place’ of divinemeeting and transformation

27:32 - Biblical stories of transition: Hagar, Abram, andthe wilderness

29:02 - A story of decomposition and the patience of naturalprocesses

30:34 - Practical embodied practice: Lent birding challenge

31:06 - The power of a quiet 10-minute outdoor or window sitfor spiritual renewal

33:08 - Closing reflection: We are seen, loved, and part ofthis living world

Resources & Links:

Looking Up: A Birder's Guide to Hope Through Grief by Courtney Ellis

Weathering Change: Seeking Peace Amid Life's Tough Transitions by Courtney Ellis

Courtney Ellis - Website | Instagram | Substack | Threads | X

Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom (use code IVPOD25 for 25% off)

Soundtrack Credits:

Nature Documentary by Tunetank

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

In this ambling conversation, Deb Gregory and Mark Buchanan offer a contemplative exploration of walking as a profound spiritual practice. They delve into how walking can ground us more deeply in humility, wonder, and intimacy with God. This episode invites us to Slow Down, notice the sacred woven into everyday life, and step more fully into the divine rhythm that surrounds us.

Key Insights:

• The deep connection between walking, humility, and embodied spirituality
• How walking shifts us from rumination to reflection and insight
• The biblical roots of walking as a spiritual act, from Eden to Emmaus
• The science behind embodied cognition, resonance, and synchronicity in walking with others
• Practical ways to incorporate mindful walking and noticing into daily life
• The creative and prophetic power of walking in story and novel writing
• How walking can deepen intimacy with God and open us to surprising revelations
  

TimeStamps:

00:00 - Welcome to the Betwixt podcast: Embodying wisdom in daily walks

00:17 - Introducing Mark Buchanan and the spiritual potential of walking

01:42 - Mark shares about his life, love for wild places, and what draws him outdoors

02:46 - Sent for a walk meditation, and the invitation to navigate by trees

03:38 - The Micah walk: moving into God's love and humility through walking

05:15 - How walking cultivates humility amid a culture of speed and achievement

06:50 - Walking as a humble act that reminds us of our life limits and dependence on God

08:40 - The vulnerability and humility inherent in wandering wilderness landscapes

09:56 - Self-reflection, love, and humility as we walk through our brokenness

10:43 - The transformative power of walking beyond rumination into contemplation

12:22 - Why walking is a core spiritual practice for Christians, rooted in Scripture

13:12 - The biblical and historical significance of walking in the story of faith

15:07 - Walking as a pathway to hearing from God, exemplified in the Road to Emmaus

16:06 - Walking in Sabbath and the deepened awareness of God's presence

18:38 - The surprising normality of revelation in walking, not just in sacred spaces

19:32 - The science of embodied cognition, resonance, and shared rhythm in walking with others

21:43 - Hearing from God in the body, especially through diverse neurodivergent experiences

25:27 - The mystic within us: cultivating a spiritual openness and receptivity

26:45 - The importance of opening ourselves to all ways God might show up

28:16 - The theological and scriptural affirmation that walking is embedded in our faith tradition

29:41 - How walking and surprise are woven into biblical encounters with the Divine

30:50 - Mark’s new novel and the interplay of walking, story, and courage during dark times

35:01 - The creative process of writing and how walking fuels inspiration

36:46 - Practical tips: noticing new details on familiar paths as a spiritual exercise

37:50 - Prayerful walking: turning everyday observation into ongoing conversation with God

38:41 - The sacramental beauty of the ordinary—recognizing divine whispers in daily life

39:01 - Closing the walk: an invitation to embody the sacred through simple, mindful steps

Resources & Links:

• Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom (Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off )
• Mark Buchanan’s Website

Reflection & Practice:

Take a familiar route, whether in your neighborhood or a quiet nature trail. Walk slowly, with curiosity. Notice what your senses reveal—textures, sounds, scents—and allow these details to ground you in the present moment.

Pause at a point where something catches your eye—an object, a scene, or even an absence—and offer a quick prayer or reflection. Ask: What is this moment inviting me to notice about God’s presence or my own life?

Conclude with a few moments of silence, sensing the quiet stillness within and around. Soundtrack Credits:

Nature Documentary by Tunetank

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

Join us in this contemplative conversation with Jesuit Father Brendan McManus, whose life of pilgrimage and spiritual accompaniment reveals the deep ways walking can transform our hearts and minds. Through stories of the Camino de Santiago, discernment in nature, and the embodiment of Ignatian spirituality, Brendan invites us to see walking as a sacred act of opening ourselves to divine love and presence.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom.

Main insights from this episode:

• How walking in darkness and dawn can heighten awareness of God's light and love
• The power of embodied prayer through simple gestures and mantras during walks
• Long pilgrimage journeys as transformative spaces for healing grief, fear, and finding clarity
• The significance of discernment in action — listening for God's voice amid movement and challenge
• Ignatian principles of consolation and desolation as guides for interior awareness
• Practical ways to create your own pilgrimage in everyday life and small journeys at home
• The importance of silent, intentional walking for deep spiritual listening
• Insights on processing grief and trauma through the body's movement and reflective practices
• How the ongoing journey continues after the pilgrimage ends, needing space for integration
• God's love as the foundation for our discernment, healing, and calling

Timestamps:00:00 - Welcome and introduction to spiritual wayfinding through pilgrimage02:09 - Brendan shares about walking in the dawn and experiencing God's presence04:54 - The surprising intimacy of walking in darkness and relying on external light06:43 - Long walks in Ireland and Ireland’s pilgrim routes as catalyzers for conversion07:49 - The significance of Camino de Santiago in Brendan’s life and formation08:36 - A profound experience of prayer and trust amidst hardship on the Camino10:19 - Brendan’s journey from careers in IT and psychology to Jesuit ministry12:38 - Reflecting on walking in nature as a source of clarity and listening to God13:19 - Creating space for silence, reflection, and discerning God's call in pilgrimage15:00 - How challenges teach us about humility, moderation, and God's voice17:15 - Embodying discernment in motion, paying attention to interior movements18:46 - Questions and aspirations pilgrims bring to their journeys19:46 - The gift of Ignatian spirituality: noticing consolation and desolation22:49 - The inward and outward half-light as a trail marker for spiritual clarity26:26 - Brendan’s powerful story of grief and healing through a pilgrimage after brother's suicide28:42 - The body’s role in metabolizing grief, and the unfolding process after pilgrimage30:33 - Living the Camino back home: processing long-term transformation32:53 - Grounding in God's love and foundational trust in the spiritual journey37:59 - A simple embodied practice: asking for grace in advance before walking39:42 - Letting nature and prayer unfold naturally, not overcomplicating41:22 - A gentle invitation to observe interior movements: consolation, desolation42:21 - Trust in God's gentle companionship in every step of life’s pilgrimage

Resources & Links:Spiritual Wayfinding by Deb GregoryFather Brendan McManus, SJFinding God in the Mess by Brendan McManusThe Camino de SantiagoCamino Companions MinistryIgnatian Spirituality ResourcesFeel inspired to step into your own pilgrimage—whether walking in nature, reflecting in silence, or carrying sacred rituals into daily life. Remember, God is always walking with us, inviting us deeper into love, trust, and presence.

Meditation music: Documentary Nature by ViacheslavStarostin

Closing Music: Roots by Ryvoli

A New Season of Betwixt Podcast is on the way! Deb Gregory shares the evolution of her podcast journey—from exploring liminal spaces to embracing embodied practices that deepen our spiritual walk. She invites us into a more grounded, movement-centered approach to recognizing God's presence and discovering ourselves along life's liminal passages. Whether you're a seasoned contemplative or just beginning to tune into your body’s wisdom, this episode offers a thoughtfully grounded and nourishing perspective on spiritual transformation.

Key Topics

• The shift from liminality to embodied spiritual practices
• What walking meditations reveal about our internal and external worlds
• How to integrate body awareness into spiritual discernment
• The role of curiosity and clarity in navigating life's passages
• Including neurodivergent-friendly approaches in spiritual formation
• The significance of trail markers—brief insights or research—to orient the journey
• Deb’s new season focus: walking alongside guests through movement and inquiry
• How embodied awareness can deepen our understanding of God's presence
• Practical ways to cultivate a steadier, more embodied spirituality

Where to find Deb:

• Flourish Spiritual Direction
• @spiritualwayfinding on Instagram
• @spiritualwayfinding on Facebook

Timestamps:00:00 - The evolution of Betwixt podcast from liminal spaces to embodiment
00:45 - Introduction to walking meditations and their role in spiritual practice
01:22 - The guest's experience: what surprised and stirred during the walk
01:43 - The concept of trail markers: insights and research to guide us
02:03 - Deepening conversation: whole person spirituality and embodied discernment
02:36 - Walking with guests through their lived experience and body awareness
03:04 - Exploring neurodivergent-friendly approaches to spiritual formation
03:33 - The importance of movement, reflection, and awareness of God's presence
04:02 - Invitation to join the journey and walk with God through embodied practices
04:17 - Encouragement to share and find steadiness in embodied spirituality