Betwixt Podcast: Grounded Conversations & Embodied practices for Spiritual Wayfinding

What holds us when life becomes heavy? In this secondconversation, Deb Gregory and spiritual director Becky Eldredge explore how hope is sustained in the seasons when our interior movements go quiet. Ignatian spirituality teaches that discernment is never a solo practice — it is communal, embodied, and grounded in the ways God meets us through others.

Becky reflects on the reality of dark seasons: times when prayer feels thin, energy disappears, and the nervous system contracts under the weight of grief, fear, or exhaustion. In these moments, hope isn’t something we generate. It’s something we lean on. Something that is held for us. Something that comes through the people, practices, and postures that keep us tethered to God when we cannot feel that tether ourselves.

This is the heart of the scaffold of hope — thesteadying structures that support us until interior movements return. Becky names the simple, whole‑person practices that help rebuild hope: breath prayer when words are unavailable, stepping outside to engage the senses, tracing even the smallest graces through the examen, and allowing trusted companions to accompany us without rushing us toward resolution.

Hope becomes a shared practice, not an individual achievement. It shows up in the body as steadiness, breath, presence, and the quiet assurance that we are not alone. And in Ignatian discernment, hope is one of the most reliable markers of God’s movement — even, and especially, in thedark.

Themes

• Communal Hope — how others hold hope when we cannot
• Scaffolding Practices — embodied rituals that steadyus in dark seasons
• Ignatian Accompaniment — discernment as a shared,relational practice
• Desolation & Consolation — navigating spiritualdarkness with honesty
• Hope as Gift — a theological virtue, not optimism
• Whole‑Person Spirituality — tending the nervoussystem, emotions, and body in prayer

Practices

• Breath prayer in seasons without words
• Sensory grounding outdoors
• Naming small graces in difficult days
• The examen as a way of tracing God’s presence in darkness
• Allowing community to hold hope on our behalf
• Hand‑over‑heart prayer for God’s nearness

Favorite Lines

“Sometimes hope is held for us until we can hold itagain.”

“We need a scaffold of hope in the seasons when our interiormovements go quiet.”

Resources

Becky’s Books:

• Encounter Grace: Moments of Hope, Joy, and Peace
• The Inner Chapel: Embracing the Promises of God 
• Busy Lives & Restless Souls: How Prayer Can Help YouFind the Missing Peace in Your Life

Deb’s Book:

Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off

Follow Becky

• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beldredge98
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beldredge98/
• My website:  http://beckyeldredge.com 
• Ignatian Ministries- the non-profit Becky founded:  https://ignatianministries.org/

Where to Find Deb

• Flourish Spiritual Direction
• Substack
• IG or Facebook

Media Used in this Episode:

• Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)
• Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT
• “In Peaceful Defiance” — licensed via Soundstripe
• Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

What does discernment have to do with the body? In this conversation, Deb Gregory and spiritual director Becky Eldredge explore the affective and holistic wisdom of Ignatian spirituality — a tradition where the whole person prays, listens, and discerns.

Becky describes how interior movements show up not just in our thoughts but in our emotions, our breath, our posture, and the subtle shifts in energy that surface when we face a decision. Ignatian discernment invites us to pay attention to these movements as real spiritual data: signs of what draws us toward God and what pulls us away.

Favorite lines:

We throw hope around like confetti.

Hope has a name, and his name is Jesus.

Following this thread, Deb and Becky take a deep look at hope as a theological virtue — a God‑given orientation of the heart and a trusted fruit of the Spirit in discernment. Hope isn’t optimism or positivity; it’s the interior movement that buoys us, widens our perspective, and helps us recognize where God is drawing us forward.

Themes

• Embodied Discernment — how the body participates in prayer and decision‑making
• Interior Movements — noticing emotional, cognitive, and somatic shifts
• Ignatian Spirituality — whole‑person wisdom for everyday life
• Cura Personalis — care for the whole person in spiritual direction
• Consolation & Desolation — affective markers that guide discernment
• Hope as a Theological Virtue — more than optimism; a God‑given orientation of the heart
• Affective Discernment — reading the signals of breath,posture, and energy
• Spiritual Accompaniment — the ministry of noticing what moves within

Resources

Becky’sBooks:

• Encounter Grace: Moments of Hope, Joy, and Peace
• The Inner Chapel: Embracing the Promises of God 
• Busy Lives & Restless Souls: How Prayer Can Help You Find the Missing Peace in Your Life

Deb’s Book:

Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off

Follow Becky

• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beldredge98
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beldredge98/
• My website:  http://beckyeldredge.com 
• Ignatian Ministries:  https://ignatianministries.org/

Follow Deb

• Flourish Spiritual Direction

• Substack
• IG or Facebook

Media Used in this Episode:

• Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)
• Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT
• Music by Viacheslav Starostin from Pixabay
• Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

Why I wanted to talk with Noel

Noel is both an Old Testament scholar and a spiritualdirector — two threads that run through my own story. My early academic path was aimed toward becoming an Old Testament scholar, but my vocation ultimately led me into spiritual direction. Even so, my love for the Hebrew Bible has never faded. Talking with Noel gave me the chance to explore both the scholarly depth and the spiritual formation that emerge in the wilderness stories of Scripture.

Key Themes we Discussed (and Wrestled With)

• naming our interior landscape
• encountering God in desolation and disorientation
• biblical wilderness as a formative space
• varied terrains of wilderness in the Old Testament
• the Suscipe: An Ignatian prayer of trust

What stuck with me

Wilderness is not a single metaphor. It’s a range ofterrains — and each one can become a place of encounter.

A question for reflection

Where do you notice wilderness in your own interiorlandscape, and what stands out as you name it?

The Suscipe Prayer of St Ignatius

Take, Lord, and receive all of my independence,

Memory, understanding, and my entire will

—all of my resources and possessions.

Everything is yours. I entrust all of it to your care.

Only inflame my soul with your love and grace.

That is enough for me.

(Translated by Deborah Gregory, Spiritual Wayfinding,pg 75)

About Noel’s bookGod in the Desert: A Spiritual Theology of Wilderness in the Old Testament⁠ traces how God meets people in barren, exposed, ordisorienting places — and how those ancient encounters can help us understand the landscapes within our own lives.

Where to find Dr. Noel Forlini Burt

• Substack: noelforliniburt.substack.com
• Instagram: @noelforliniburt

Where to Find Deb

• Flourish Spiritual Direction
• Substack
• IG or Facebook

Thanks to InterVarsity Press for generously offering 25% offSpiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom. Use Code IVPOD25 at https://www.ivpress.com/spiritual-wayfinding

Music:

• Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)
• Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT
• Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

I’ll admit it—I was a bit nervous to talk about heaven with Brian Zahnd. Perhaps like you, I carry baggage from childhood images of gold streets and clouds, and I wasn’t sure where this conversation would go. But his stories of walking long long-distance pilgrimages like the Camino de Santiago opened such a grounded way of talking about heaven, embodiment, and the unseen world we move through every day. I really loved this conversation!

What we get into

Brian has walked multiple pilgrimages—40 miles, 160 miles,and the full 500-mile Camino de Santiago twice. Those long walks have shaped his sense of identity and the stripping-away that happens when life is reduced to walking, eating, sleeping, and repeat.

Brain shares the adventures of crossing the Pyrenees, staying in the monastery at Roncesvalles, and watching people who don’t consider themselves religious still feel drawn into the shared rituals of the Camino. He noted that at some point, his perspective shifted from finally getting a vacation to an overhaul of vocation.

“Eventually it doesn’t feel like a holiday. It feels like, Iam a pilgrim now. My life has been reduced to blessed simplicity.”

We also explore his new book Unseen Existences: Of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine Mystery in All Things and why so many of us inherited narrow or sentimental ideas of heaven. Brian talksabout heaven in a way that isn’t wispy and frail, but grounded and gritty.

Why this conversation matters

If you’ve ever felt allergic to heaven-talk, this episode might be a relief. Brian challenges the modern assumption that only what we can measure is real, without dismissing science or reason. Instead, he invites us to recover an older Christian intuition: that the visible and invisible co-exist, and that our own lived experience—our senses, our movement, our curiosity—can help us glimpse the mysterious existence of heaven all around us.

What made me laugh

Two pastors walked together for days before admitting theywere pastors—only on the Camino!

Tune in if you enjoy conversations about:

the Camino de Santiago

• embodied spirituality
• heaven without sentimentality
• the unseen world in Christian (mystic) imagination
• pilgrimage and spiritual transformation

Where to Find Brian

• Website: https://brianzahnd.com
• Substack: https://brianzahnd.substack.com
• Twitter / X: https://twitter.com/BrianZahnd
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brianzahndFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/BrianZahndAuthor
• YouTube (Word of Life Church): https://www.youtube.com/c/WordofLifeChurch

Where to Find Deb

• Flourish Spiritual Direction
• Substack
• IG or Facebook

Thanks to InterVarsity Press for generously offering 25% offSpiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom. Use Code IVPOD25at https://www.ivpress.com/spiritual-wayfinding

Music:

• Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)
• Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT
• Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

Related Episodes: 32 Fr. Brendan McManus, SJ: How Pilgrimage Heals and Helps Us Find Our Way

Buen Camino!

Forest Bathing: Cultivating Connection with Nature andGod with Kim Van Natta

Discover how forest bathing—an intentional immersion innature—can deepen your spiritual life and boost your physical health. In this episode, Kim Van Natta, a spiritual director and certified forest therapy guide, shares insights on engaging all your senses outdoors to experience divine connection.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Main topics:

• The essence of forest bathing and its physical healthbenefits, including immune boosting through phytocides
• The spiritual significance of engaging with creation as ameans of connecting with God
• Practical guidance on how to participate in a forest bathingwalk and incorporate it into your spiritual practice
• The biblical basis for nature as a pathway to divineencounter, supported by scripture references
• The emergence of Wild Church as a community of outdoorbelievers rediscovering sacred space in creation

In this episode:

• How trees release healing chemicals that support immune function and reduce stress
• The history and development of shinrin yoku in Japan and its global adoption
• The relationship between embodiment, senses, and spiritual awareness
• How to create your own forest bathing experience, regardless of location or season
• The role of silence, shared presence, and sensoryinvitations in deepening spiritual mindfulness

Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction to forest bathing and itshealth benefits
02:00 - The physical and spiritual 'rest' offered by engaging with nature
03:30 - Exploring the biblical and scientific foundations of nature as divinegift
05:00 - The historical origins of forest bathing in Japan and its global spread
07:00 - Practical steps for doing a forest bathing walk and sensory engagement
10:00 - How biblical scriptures illuminate our connection to creation and God
13:30 - The role of Wild Church and outdoor communities in spiritual renewal
16:00 - The scientific evidence of phytocides' effects on immune health
18:00 - Embodiment and sensory awareness as pathways to divine presence
20:00 - How to start your own practice of forest bathing today
42:00 - Guided natural mindfulness practice: Experience the Pleasure ofPresence

Resources & Links:

Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Wild Church Network

Church of the Wild by Victoria Louris

Rewilding with Mary DeYoung

Association of Nature and Forest Therapy

Connect with Kim Van Natta:

Website

Connect with Deb Gregory:

·       Flourish Contemplative Center

·       Substack

·       Instagram / Facebook

May this episode inspire you to slow down, open your senses,and experience God's presence in the sacred space of creation.

From the lived complexity of leading a multiracial, justice‑oriented church, Rich Johnson reflects on how the contemplative posture of slowing down becomes a radical act of spiritual formation.Pastor and spiritual director Rich Johnson joins Deb Gregory for a conversation at the intersection of contemplation and action — a place often misunderstood, oversimplified, or treated as two separate paths. Drawing on Howard Thurman, African American approaches to spiritual formation, pietistic roots, and his experience leading a multiracial, justice‑oriented congregation, Rich explores how slowing down, listening deeply, and grounding ourselves in the divine voice becomes the wellspring for courageous, sustained action.

Rich shares stories from his journey — from Morehouse College to planting Sanctuary Church — and invites us into a rhythm of discernment that harmonizes active love and deep reflection.

Rich Johnson is the founding pastor of Sanctuary Columbus Church, a multiracial, justice‑oriented, contemplative Christian community. He is a spiritual director and the Director of the Weborg Center for Spiritual Direction at North Park Seminary. He is a lover of coffee, long walks, and a student of Howard Thurman’s wisdom on the inner life and social action.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

KEY THEMES:

Contemplation as Paying Attention

Rich defines contemplation as noticing where God is at work— in memory, in the body, in habits, in resistance, and in desire. It’s not passive. It’s an active inward movement that naturally leads outward into relationship and action.

Action Emerging from the Inner Voice

Rich shares how he began to burn out when he was “listeningto every voice around me instead of the voice within.” Returning to the inner voice of God reshaped his leadership, his discernment, and his community’s justice work.

 Belovedness as Identity and Communion

Drawing on Henri Nouwen’s Life of the Beloved, Rich reflects on belovedness as the core of human identity — not just for the self, but for the community. Belovedness becomes the ground for how we show up, act, and extend ourselves to others.

Pietism: Head and Heart Together

Rich describes his Swedish‑Lutheran pietistic roots, where faith is not performative or rigid but relational and lived. Two guiding questions shape this tradition:

Where is it written? How goes your walk?

Communal Discernment

Rich shares how Sanctuary Church practices discernmenttogether — beginning with silence, naming interior movements, listening for the Spirit, and asking: What does the Lord require of us? This practice guides their justice work, including recent engagement with prison reform.

The Missing Practice of Lament

Rich names what many feel but rarely articulate: lament is missing from most spiritual‑discipline handbooks. In his community, lament is encouraged — shouting, grieving, protesting, naming what hurts. Lament becomes a way of gathering in grief and attuning to God’s heart.

Coffee as Contemplative Practice

Rich shares his morning ritual: a sensory grounding practice using the 5‑4‑3‑2‑1 method while holding a warm cup of coffee. It’s a way of awakening the senses to God before the day begins to pull them apart.

Resources & Links:

Howard Thurman: Essential Writings

Henry Nouwen: Life of the Beloved

Howard Thurman House — Visiting the sacred space

Gethsemane Monastery in Kentucky, exploring silence, community, and contemplative practice

Where to Find Rich Johnson:

Rich Johnson on Instagram

SanctuaryChurch Columbus

NorthernSeminary - Weborg Center

Drawing from decades of work at Chartres Cathedral and in trauma‑touched communities worldwide, Jill Geoffrion reveals how the labyrinth’s winding path becomes a living conduit of joy and healing.

In this episode, Deb Gregory speaks with theologian, photographer, and global labyrinth facilitator Dr. Jill Geoffrion, whose scholarship and ministry at Chartres Cathedral have shaped contemporary understanding of the labyrinth as a path of prayer.

Jill’s work through Faith, Hope, and Love Global Ministries extends far beyond France, bringing labyrinth installations and healing practices to communities experiencing violence, displacement, and collective trauma.

The conversation explores the sensory wisdom of embodied practice, the medieval Easter traditions of Chartres, the historical development of labyrinths in Christian contexts, and the surprising ways labyrinths create safe spaces for healing in places of suffering.

Historical Background

Labyrinths appear in Christian tradition as early as the fourth century, beginning with a repurposed Roman mosaic placed at the doorway of a North African cathedral in 324. Jill notes, “Anything that shows up in a cathedral has been around because it doesn’t get to the cathedral first.” By the ninth century, labyrinths appear in manuscripts; by the twelfth andthirteenth centuries, they are installed on cathedral floors in Italy and France, culminating in the large walkable labyrinth at Chartres Cathedral around 1220.

Jill clarifies a common misconception: medieval pilgrims did not use labyrinths as substitutes for traveling to Jerusalem. “The first time we even hear of such an idea was in the eighteenth or nineteenth century,” she explains. Instead, labyrinths served primarily as liturgical tools for the cathedral community.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

In this episode:

• Jill's journey from scholarship to global healinginitiatives with labyrinth installations
• The distinction between labyrinths and mazes, and whyturning back on the path matters physically and psychologically
• How labyrinths serve as containers for community andindividual pilgrimage, especially in regions of trauma
• The significance of the Chartres Cathedral labyrinth as acenturies-old testament to prayer, pilgrimage, and liturgical joy
• Practical tips for approaching a labyrinth intentionally, whether walking physically, tracing patterns, or imagining the path
• The profound connection between physical movement, sensory engagement, and spiritual/emotional healing
• The surprising ways labyrinths have facilitated physicalrecovery—like Deb’s experience walking the labyrinth with a broken ankle
• How the rhythms of play, spontaneity, and openness transform our experience of sacred practice
• Embracing the mystery: why the spiritual and physical impactof labyrinths remains partly beyond our understanding

Resources & Links:

• Faith Hope and Love Global Ministries — Jill’s nonprofit for healing through labyrinths
• Jill's article  Revisiting the Chartres Labyrinth: A Journey Through Time
• Labyrinth Locator — Discover labyrinths worldwide
• Lauren Artress and Veriditas — Pioneers of labyrinth revitalization and training
• Labyrinth Patterns and Resources — Free downloadable labyrinth designs
• Book: "Spiritual Wayfinding" by Deb Gregory —Guide to embodied spiritual practices and labyrinths
• Research on Restorative Play with Matt Bloom

Connect with Jill Geoffrion:

• Personal Website

• Labyrinth prayer: https://labyrinthprayer.com 
• Labyrinth experience around the globe: https://throughjillseyes.wordpress.com 
• Chartres Cathedral resources: https://praywithjillatchartres.com 
• Articles about the Chartres labyrinth: https://jillgeoffrion.com/writings/articles-written-by-the-rev-jill-k-h-geoffrion-ph-d/ 

Music:

• Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions (www.sessions.blue)
• Faded Promises licensed through Soundstripe. Code:LUJWGE5LY2FBKNAT
• Closing Music: ⁠Roots by Ryvoli⁠

Episode Swap with Josh Davis of Neurodivergent Faith

Today’s episode is a little different. We’re sharing a curated portion of Josh Davis’s interview with Deb Gregory from the Neurodivergent Faith Podcast. Last week, Josh joined Deb on Betwixt for a conversation about embodied spirituality and sensory wisdom. This week, we continue that collaboration by offering listeners a deeper look into Josh’s work — and into Deb’s own story of neurodivergent spirituality, sensory processing, and interoceptive discernment.

Josh and Deb share a lot of common ground: both are spiritual directors, both come from neurodivergent families, and both are passionate about centering ND experiences in conversations about Christian formation. This episode swap gives Betwixt listeners a chance to hear Deb through Josh’s lens — and to explore how neurodivergent ways of sensing and processing open new pathways into prayer, discernment, and connection with God.

You’ll hear the opening moments of Neurodivergent Faith to reacquaint you with Josh’s voice, and then we jump ahead to the portion of the interview where the conversation turns toward embodied discernment, sensory processing, and interoception. Stay through the end for a guided interoceptive body scan as our closing meditation.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off SpiritualWayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

In This Episode

Why this Betwixt episode is a curated swap with Neurodivergent Faith

Deb’s story of growing up in a neurodivergent family — autism, ADHD, dyslexia

How sensory processing differences shaped her daughter’s spiritual experience

The challenge of finding worship spaces that support ND nervous systems

Why behaviors often signal sensory need rather than defiance

The body’s role in discernment —fast thinking, sensory cues, emotional signals

The eight sensory systems: taste,touch, smell, sight, hearing, proprioception, vestibular, interoception

How interoception helps us notice hunger, temperature, tension, emotion, and internal states

Emotions as discernment tools —anger, disgust, joy, grief

The “yuck walk” and how disgust can become an invitation to care

How ND people can reclaim sensoryand emotional experience as part of their relationship with God

Final Meditation: A full guided interoceptive body scan led by Deb

Resources Mentioned

Neurodivergent Faith Podcast

Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom by Deborah Gregory

Daniel Kahneman — Thinking: Fast and Slow

Connect with Josh Davis:

Podcast: Neurodivergent Faith Podcast

YouTube: Just Josh Davis (AutisticPastor)  

Facebook - Josh Davis

Instagram -@autisticpastor

Music – Just Josh Davis on Bandcamp

Music:

Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

Featured Songs by Josh Davis: What If

Autistic pastor and spiritual director Josh Davis believes it's time to start talking about shame and the expectations to mask for neurodivergent Christians. In this episode, Josh takes us inside the sensory‑rich, embodied wisdom of neurodivergent spirituality. He shares how his body processes emotional and sensory spikes, how stimming helps him settle, and why music is his “heart language”—a place to regulate and commune with God without words.

We explore the surge of surprise, the role of embodied prayer, and the spiritual depth that emerges when we honor the body’s way of knowing.

This episode features selections from Josh’s own music throughout.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off ⁠SpiritualWayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom⁠

Key Themes:

• How surprise impacts emotional regulation and spiritualtransformation, guided by research from “surpriseologists” Tania Luna and Leanne Renninger
• The significance of the surprise regulation protocol: freeze, find, shift, and share
• Josh’s embodied practices for connecting with God throughsunlight, blessing, and sensory grounding
• The nuances of masking versus unmasking, and the spiritualjourney of owning neurodivergent traits
• The sacred role of music as a heart language that fostersdivine communion
• Challenges and creative solutions for neurodivergentbelievers in church environments
• The importance of cultivating spaces of authentic belongingand vulnerability
• How imagination works differently in neurodivergence,including insights on aphantasia and alternative pathways to divine encounter
• Practical ways leaders and spiritual directors can validatediverse pathways to God and nurture neurodivergent gifts
• A guided reflection inspired by Psalm 34 to taste, see,hear, smell, and touch the goodness of God

Resources & Links:

⁠Neurodivergent Faith Podcast⁠

⁠Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom by Deborah Gregory⁠

⁠Surprise by Tanya Luna & Leanne Renniger⁠

Connect with Josh Davis:

Podcast: ⁠Neurodivergent Faith Podcast⁠

YouTube: ⁠Just Josh Davis (AutisticPastor)⁠  

Facebook -⁠ Josh Davis⁠

Instagram -⁠@autisticpastor⁠

Music – Just Josh Davis on ⁠Bandcamp⁠

Extended Closing Meditation:

 Join Josh in this embodied reflection: pause, notice one sensory experience that signals God's goodness, and breathe in divine blessing. Feel free to adapt practices for your own body, soul, and context—trusting that transformation often begins in the surprise of simply showing up as ourselves.

Music:

• Opening Music: Palms Down by BlueDot Sessions
• Closing Song: "Roots" by⁠Ryvoli⁠

Featured Songs by ⁠Josh Davis⁠:

• ⁠WhatIf⁠
• Desire

Today’s guest is Br. Guy Consolmagno, SJ—astronomer, Jesuit brother, and former Director of the Vatican Observatory. Br. Guy has spent his life studying meteorites, galaxies, and the deep structure of the cosmos, all while living a profoundly grounded Ignatian spirituality. His work invites us to see scientific curiosity not as a threat to faith, but as one of its most natural expressions.

In this conversation, we explore how wonder becomes a spiritual practice, how humility is woven into the fabric of the universe, and why the vastness of space can actually draw us closer to a God who delights in creation. Br. Guy shares stories from his decades of research, his unexpected path to the Jesuits, and the surprising ways science can deepen our prayer.

Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off SpiritualWayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

In this episode:

• Why wonder is essential to both science and spiritual life
• How Ignatian spirituality shapes the way we explore the cosmos
• What meteorites teach us about time, humility, and God’s creativity
• Why the universe’s vastness doesn’t diminish us—it situates us
• How curiosity can become a form of prayer
• The role of joy, play, and delight in scientific discovery
• What it means to trust a God who is both intimate and unimaginably expansive

Trail Marker: The Spiritual Gift of WonderMidway through the episode, we pause to reflect on awe as a spiritual posture. Br. Guy describes awe and wonder not as fleeting emotions but as a way of being awake to God’s presence in the world. Wonder slows us down, opens us up, and reminds us that we are creatures—finite but infinitely loved.

He reminds us that the universe is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be entered. That shift—from control to curiosity—changes how we pray, how we learn, and how we live.

Resources Mentioned

• Jesuit Guide to the Stars (Loyola Press)
• Vatican Observatory
• SpecolaVaticana
• Vatican Observatory Foundation

God’s Grandeur: A poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins, SJ (Read by Jonathan Roumie)

Connect with Deb:

Flourish Spiritual Direction| Substack | Facebook | Instagram

Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom

Soundtrack Credits

Opening Music: “Palms Down” — Blue Dot Sessions

Closing Song: “Roots” — Ryvoli