Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

• Jason's adoption story and upbringing
• Learning about God from different streams of historic Christianity
• Why worship is more than just expression
• Whether Jason sees himself as a worship leader
• The pressure to be a Christian influencer
• When to be spontaneous in worship
• Song stories

If you're a follower of Jesus, you know you're supposed to share your faith.We're supposed to tell others about Jesus. But it's often a topic that gives any Christian anxiety. What if I don't know how to articulate what I believe? What if someone asks me a difficult question I don't know how to answer?

What if I'm a terrible Christian, fail in my defense, get laughed at, and the name of Christ is disrespected because I don't know what I'm talking about?

Take a deep breath…

Lisa Fields is the CEO and founder of Jude 3 Project, a leading apologetics organization dedicated to equipping the Black community with the tools to know what they believe and why they believe it. As a renowned Christian apologist, speaker, author, and film producer, she has been a driving force in shapi ng conversations on faith, theology, and culture.She is the author of two books When Faith Disappoints and When Heroes Fall. She has also contributed to two additional books, Cultural Engagement: A Crash Course in Contemporary Issues and Urban Apologetics: Cults and Cultural Ideologies.

I wanted to talk to Lisa about her unique way of doing apologetics, what it's like being a black women in a field of study that primarily consists of white men, deconstruction and reconstruction, and how to navigate leadership scandal as both organizations and individuals.

• Lisa's story
• Healthy and unhealthy ways to approach apologetics
• Deconstruction and reconstruction
• Healthy accountability for pastors and churches
• What to do when a leader falls
• The challenge of being a black woman in a white male-dominated space (apologetics)

• Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible
• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• When Faith Disappoints by Lisa Fields
• When Heroes Fall by Lisa Fields
• Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer
• Bullies And Saints by John Dickson
• People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck

This episode is brought to you by the Dwell Bible app. Did you have big plans to listen to the Bible in a Year in 2026, but life seemed to get in the way? Maybe it's been a few years since you worked through a Bible listening plan, and now you're feeling the itch to dive back in. Or perhaps this is your first time hearing about a Bible listening plan.

Wherever you find yourself today, Dwell has something special just for you!

Beginning October 1, you can dive into the New Testament in just three months! It's the perfect way to get back on track or start fresh, by listening to the Bible! It's never been more easy to fit a Bible plan into your active lifestyle.

You can choose from multiple NT in 90 Day plans like:

• The Genre Plan – which groups books by their theme, taking you through the Gospels, Epistles, and Prophecy in a way that highlights their connections and differences
• The Historical Plan – which takes you through the New Testament as it was likely written, offering a unique historical perspective
• The Straight Thru Plan – which takes you through the traditional order, from the life of Jesus through the growth of the early church

And remember, with Dwell, you're not just listening—you're experiencing the Bible. You can choose from a variety of amazing voices, set the perfect background music, and even adjust the speed to match your pace.

To subscribe to a new plan now, head over to dwellbible.com/beyondsunday for 50% off today and so you're ready to start on October 1st!

Beyond Sunday is brought to you by Planning Center — celebrating 20 years of Sundays.

Since 2006, Planning Center been making tools to help you plan worship and make each Sunday count. Build and share setlists, schedule your volunteers and musicians, and keep song resources right where your team needs them—all in one place.

Twenty years of helping you make every Sunday count.

Learn more about all of their products at planningcenter.com.

Maya Angelou once said, ""History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, however, if faced with courage, need not be lived again."

The discipline of reading and studying history is not to make us feel good. It's to instruct us so we don't repeat the same mistakes.

One of the greatest living historians of American Christianity is Kristin Kobes Du Mez. Her book Jesus And John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation explores how American evangelicalism embraced militant masculinity and Christian nationalism. It was released in 2020 and was a worldwide bestseller. It's not an easy book to ready, but helps to make sense of so much what we're seeing in America today.

Her new book Live Laugh Love: The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made is another tour de force. It's a sweeping history about Christian women, but it's not only for women to read. We break it down in this interview and talk about 19th century holiness evangelicalism, the widespread influence of Hannah Whitall Smith and her book "A Christian's Secret to a Happy Life", the marketing machine of American religion, influential women artists in Christian music, why it's impossible to be apolitical, and why we need to pay attention to stories of spiritual abuse.

Historians are not our enemies, even if they tell us what we don't want to hear. Be prepared to be surprised, infuriated, challenged, and motivated to work towards a healthier church.

• The surprising success of Jesus And John Wayne
• What the critics of J&JW are saying
• Why critiquing evangelical culture is so challenging
• Why Kristin was talking about Doug Wilson before he was national news
• The origins of Live Laugh Love
• Hannah Whitall Smith and her influence on Christian women's culture
• 19th century holiness evangelicalism and it's influence today
• The marketing machine of American religion
• Why it's impossible to be apolitical
• Why what is marketed as biblical is not always biblical
• The fascinating and tragic story of Elizabeth Elliot

• Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible App
• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Live Laugh Love by Kristin Kobes Du Mez
• Jesus And John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez
• All The Frequent Troubles of Our Days by Rebecca Donner

This episode is brought to you by the Dwell Bible app. Did you have big plans to listen to the Bible in a Year in 2026, but life seemed to get in the way? Maybe it's been a few years since you worked through a Bible listening plan, and now you're feeling the itch to dive back in. Or perhaps this is your first time hearing about a Bible listening plan.

Wherever you find yourself today, Dwell has something special just for you!

Beginning October 1, you can dive into the New Testament in just three months! It's the perfect way to get back on track or start fresh, by listening to the Bible! It's never been more easy to fit a Bible plan into your active lifestyle.

You can choose from multiple NT in 90 Day plans like:

• The Genre Plan – which groups books by their theme, taking you through the Gospels, Epistles, and Prophecy in a way that highlights their connections and differences
• The Historical Plan – which takes you through the New Testament as it was likely written, offering a unique historical perspective
• The Straight Thru Plan – which takes you through the traditional order, from the life of Jesus through the growth of the early church

And remember, with Dwell, you're not just listening—you're experiencing the Bible. You can choose from a variety of amazing voices, set the perfect background music, and even adjust the speed to match your pace.

To subscribe to a new plan now, head over to dwellbible.com/beyondsunday for 50% off today and so you're ready to start on October 1st!

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it's almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It's the end of the week. You're about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there's a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you'll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it's all right there, so you're not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.

A question I have wrestled with is…what makes the CHURCH different in the midst of our modern culture? What makes our local churches different than what other organizations have to offer?

What happens when our local churches become oriented merely towards pragmatism?

That's what I talk about with Pastor and Author Brian Zahnd. Brian is the pastor of Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, MO and is no stranger to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. He has a new book called Unseen Existences: Of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine Mystery in All Things.

This is a conversation about the church. About the Bible. About the sacraments. About wonder, mystery, awe, and what happens when we lose our sense of transcendence.

If you're a pastor, a worship leader, a Christian artist, or a follower of Jesus…there is something here that will reorient you towards hope and beauty in an age of cynicism, nationalism, and deconstruction. There is another way.

• The alternative to Christian Nationalism and endless deconstruction
• How evangelicalism forsook mystery and embraced empiricism
• How the Christian Right and the Christian Left co-opt Christ for political ends
• Good vs bad apologetics
• A spiritual vs a literal reading of the text of Holy Scripture
• The value of trying on different interpretive lenses when it comes to Scripture
• Recapturing mystery

• Atheist Delusions by David Bentley Hart
• Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry
• Unseen Existences by Brian Zahnd
• Make Your Home In This Luminous Dark by James K.A. Smith
• Magnifica Humanitas by Pope Leo XIV
• Crucified and Resurrected by Ingolf Dalferth

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it's almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It's the end of the week. You're about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there's a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you'll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it's all right there, so you're not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.

If you've listened to this podcast at all in the past, you probably have some connection to either Christian music or worship music. Maybe you love it and worship music and Christian radio helps you get through the day. Maybe you're a worship leader, always on the lookout for great worship songs for your church to sing.

But maybe you have a love/hate relationship with the Christian music industry. You've been burned by it. You've seen how the sausage is made.

This is a tension I hold. I love worship music. It's been deeply formative in my life. But there is a current that exists where worship and worship music becomes primarily about profit. And that is a scary and confusing place to be.

That's what I'm talking with Gable Price about. If you don't know who Gable Price is, turn off this podcast immediately and go stream his music. It is well written, honest, and perfectly crated rock and roll that defies the Christian music label. A true breath of fresh air in an industry that can often feel stale. And Gable is just a great guy who will make you smile.

We talk about living in New York City. Gable's formative days in the Vineyard Church. His deal with Bethel Music and why he left. And why he's more excited than he's ever been about making music.

• The influence of NYC on GP's music
• Fracturing faith and returning to faith
• GP's early years in the Vineyard
• Protecting worship from selfish ambition
• The challenge of worship being your job
• On the CCM industry
• The story behind "Too Good"
• Dream artist collabs

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• The Magician's Nephew by CS Lewis
• The Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien
• The Prophetic Imagination by Walter Brueggmann
• Live No Lies by John Mark Comer
• Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller
• A Long Obedience in the Same Direction by Eugene Peterson
• My Utmost for His Highest by Oswald Chambers

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it's almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It's the end of the week. You're about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there's a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you'll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it's all right there, so you're not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.

I think so many of us are longing for a faith that meets us right where we are. A faith that we can practice in school car line. At work. On a hospital bed. During a pandemic. A faith that is not merely escapism or triumphalism but a real faith in Christ that works not for the benefits it gives us, but for the ways it opens us up to the mystery of God. A faith that leaves room for questions, doubts, and one in which we don't have to perform to perfection.

That's why I love the writing of Tish Harrison Warren. Listen to these book titles: Liturgy of the Ordinary. Prayer In The Night. And her most recent, What Grows in Wearly Lands: On Christian Resilience. Tish formerly wrote a weekly newsletter about faith for The New York Times. She serves as the C.S. Lewis Theological Write-in-residence at Truett Seminary's Anglican Episcopal House of Studies. She is a senior fellow with the Trinity Forum and an assisting priest at Immanuel Anglican Church.

In this conversation we talk about Christian resilience, what we can learn from the first thousand years of church history, the writings of the Desert Fathers and Mothers, and Tish's spiritual journey from the Southern Baptist Church to the PCA to now becoming a priest in the Anglican Church.

• Writing in the midst of a busy life
• The frustration of writing and how to get it done
• Writing to teach ideas vs writing to convey beauty
• Reflections on evangelicalism in Tish's early years
• Tish's journey to becoming an Anglican priest
• Why we need the first 1000 years of the church
• Who the Desert Fathers and Mothers are and what we can learn from them

• What Grows In Weary Lands: On Christian Resilience by Tish Harrison Warren
• Prayer in the Night: For Those Who Work or Watch or Weep by Tish Harrison Warren
• Liturgy of the Ordinary: Sacred Practices In Everyday Life by Tish Harrison Warren
• Advent: The Season of Hope by Tish Harrison Warren
• Make Your Home In This Luminous Dark: Mysticism, Art, And The Path of Unknowing by James K.A. Smith
• Desiring The Kingdom: Worship, Worldview, And Cultural Formation by James K.A. Smith
• You Are What You Love: The Spiritual Power of Habit by James K.A. Smith
• Liturgies of the Wild: Myths That Make Us by Martin Shaw

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it's almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It's the end of the week. You're about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there's a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you'll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it's all right there, so you're not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

Not all spiritual formation is created equal. Just because you read your Bible, pray, and go to church every Sunday does not mean you are being renewed - as Colossians 3:10 says - in the image and knowledge of your creator.

A very good litmus test for us as followers of Jesus is…do we look like Jesus? Do we love what Jesus loved? Do we love whom Jesus loved? Do we speak as Jesus spoke? Do we embody what Jesus lived and died for?

That has been the historical definition of a Christian for generations: little Christs.

With the rise of Christian nationalism in our present day, many outside the church look at Christianity in America and wonder, what does it actually mean to be a Christian?

One of my favorite books in the last year was Making it Plain: Why We Need Anabaptism And The Black Church with Dr. Drew G.I. Hart. So I wanted to bring him on the show to talk about the history of anabaptism. The history of the black church. And what we can learn about following Jesus today.

Drew is an author, speaker, and professor of theology at Messiah University in Pennsylvania. With a decade of pastoral experience, Drew is a leading voice in Christian ethics, black theology, and anabaptism.

• Drew's upbringing in "Black evangelicalism"
• The difference between "Black Evangelicalism" and "Black Liberation Theology"
• The history of Anabaptism, its victories and vices
• The multicultural reality of Anabaptism globally
• The Christendom mindset and its influence today
• The history of colonial conquest in America and the birth of the Black Church
• How The Black Church balances out Anabaptism
• What went wrong with Christopher Columbus and his spiritual formation
• Why liberation theology is often resisted
• The Black Lives Matter movement and why it is so often resisted

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Making it Plain: Why We Need Anabaptism And The Black Church by Drew Hart

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it's almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It's the end of the week. You're about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there's a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you'll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it's all right there, so you're not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

When I was a young teenager, I heard a traveling evangelist say the best form of therapy was speaking in tongues. The preacher at the time was criticizing modern therapy as unchristian and, ultimately unnecessary. We don't need to sit in rooms and endless unpack our problems and our past trauma. What people need more than anything - he said - is the presence of God.

I understand the sentiment. I love the presence of God. I believe there is tremendous value in spiritual disciplines, practices, and experiences with God. But what happens to our formation as people when we are trained to be skeptical of therapy? How would our relationships be different, our marriages be different, our relationship with God be different if we learned to feel at home in the body God gave us? Where we didn't feel the need to set aside our humanity for performative piety? What if therapy is a gift from God?

I'm not a therapist or an expert on therapy. That's why I'm talking to Kate Willsey. Kate is a therapist and coach who specializes in religious trauma. She unpacks the tensions inherent at the intersection of the nervous system, theology, and spiritual formation. I've been following Kate's work on social media and have been so blessed by her work. And I thought you would as well.

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it's almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It's the end of the week. You're about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there's a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you'll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it's all right there, so you're not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.

I remember my days as a young worship leader. There was always this unspoken tension between being performative and pastoral. Is it my job as a worship leader to provide a powerful, exciting experience or to guide them in a healthy practice for their spiritual formation? When we say worship was really good this week, what do we mean? If you lead worship, you know the tension. When you put a singer or musician on a stage, under the lights, it is by definition a performance. Performance is not a bad thing,but we, at the same time feel uncomfortable talking about performance when it comes to worship. If you surveyed your congregation, likely most would scoff at the idea of worship as a performance. And yet, we have adopted performative tools in local church ministry. So what do we do?

One of the worship leaders that helped me navigate these tensions early on was Paul Baloche. If you don't know the name Paul Baloche, you likely know his songs. Open The Eyes of My Heart, Above All, or Hosanna (Praise is Rising) have been staple songs in churches all over the world, and that's only scratching the surface of the sheer number of songs he's written. But what I love most about Paul is not his songwriting prowess but the fact that he's truly a normal guy like the rest of us. In a marketplace of worship that has often been defined by what is trending, cool, and exciting, Paul has been faithfully leading the church and coaching worship leaders on how to be themselves and lead with authenticity.

Paul is no stranger to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. And it was refreshing to catch up and talk all things worship. Even do some reminiscing about earlier eras of worship leading in the 80s and 90s.

• The story behind Paul's new album
• How Paul was discovered by Integrity Music in 1992
• How to resist performative ministry
• The call to worship leader authenticity
• Why everyone struggles with insecurity
• The story behind Paul's new record

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Yes We Believe by Paul Baloche

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it's almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It's the end of the week. You're about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there's a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you'll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it's all right there, so you're not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sunda

If you're like me, a child of the 80s, you grew up watching Star Wars. I understood a lot about Star Wars but what I didn't understand at the time was how political it was. The empire and the rebellion. Resistance. Fighting for the underdog and the oppressed. Fighting for an alternative way of being that is not dictated by empire.

One of my goals with this podcast is to create a diverse platform of voices within the church. Voices on the margins. Artists on the margins. Theologians on the margins. One of those important voices is author and Cuban-American theologian Kat Armas. One of my favorite books this year is her new book Liturgies for Resisting Empire.

This is a conversation about reimagination. Decolonization. Reclaiming agency. Seeing the beauty in humanity in dehumanizing times.

There's a lot here, but the entire conversation is worth your time if you like to be challenged, stretched, and gain perspective from a different vantage point in a global and diverse Christianity.

• The importance of listening to marginalized people
• Deconstruction vs Decolonization
• How the Bible is co-opted in support of various political agendas
• Why The United States of America can't be de-colonized
• How to resist empire
• Global missions and colonialism
• How to care for those who have deconstructed their faith

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Liturgies for Resisting Empire by Kat Armas
• Abuelita Faith by Kat Armas
• Sacred Belonging by Kat Armas
• Bewilderment by Richard Powers

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it's almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It's the end of the week. You're about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there's a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you'll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it's all right there, so you're not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to