Beyond the Roles: Voices in Education

Dr. Courtney Hattan is an assistant professor in the science of reading with the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill’s School of Education. She earned her Ph.D. in Educational Psychology from the University of Maryland and her reading specialist degree from Johns Hopkins University. She has seen many facets of the educational system, having started out as a language arts and social studies teacher at the elementary and middle school levels. Hattan’s work centers on equitable and evidence-based instruction that supports students in activating and building their background knowledge during reading. She was the 2019 recipient of the Timothy and Cynthia Shanahan Outstanding Dissertation Award and was named a Reading Hall of Fame Emerging Scholars Fellow. Her research is published in outlets such as Review of Educational Research, Reading Research Quarterly, and Journal of Educational Psychology.

In this episode, Courtney provides insights into the life of a tenure-track professor at a top research university. She shares how her teaching experiences with the KWL chart informed her dissertation research. She describes how she combines both qualitative and quantitative research methods to form a fuller picture of the whole story. Courtney also shares about the research she is conducting in partnership with certain rural schools in North Carolina and Illinois to help bridge the gap between research and evidence-based practices that educators can use. She is committed to telling the full story on literacy assessment in particular, in order to best support students’ needs.

Find out more about Courtney’s education, areas of expertise, background, and research at https://ed.unc.edu/people/courtney-hattan/

And you can read Courtney’s dissertation study at 

Hattan, C. (2019). Prompting rural students’ use of background knowledge and experience to support comprehension of unfamiliar content. Reading Research Quarterly, 54(4), 451-455. https://doi.org/10.1002/rrq.270

Donda Hartsfield has been an outdoor specialist for a Montessori school in Salt Lake City for the last 16 years. She has worked with children ages 3 through 12, and over the years has developed an outdoor curriculum for each age grouping (3-6, 6-9, 9-12). In recent years she has expanded her outreach and has facilitated a connection with nature for high school students and adults as well, through her work with Tree Utah and through her own nature journaling on her website: beecurious.bio.

In this episode Donda discusses the many hats she wears, the challenges and rewards of her work, and the primary motivation and philosophy for why she does what she does. She shares examples from her outdoor curriculum for each age level, from developing a sense of awe with invertebrate insects to field work in the various ecosystems in our state (wetlands, desert, forests). She also shares how her work with TreeUtah, a nonprofit organization that raises awareness and plants trees throughout Utah, has led to nature journaling opportunities for the greater community at their EcoGarden, and to educational outreach with students at the charter high school, Salt Lake Center for Science Education (SLCSE). Donda is an inspiring example for anyone who would like to create more of a connection with nature for themselves and/or the young people in their lives.

Find out more about:

Donda and her reflections: beecurious.bio

Biomimicry: https://www.learnbiomimicry.com/blog

TreeUtah: https://www.treeutah.org/

And their EcoGarden: https://www.treeutah.org/programs/ecogarden

Brief overview of Montessori education: https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/articles/what-is-a-montessori-school

Rebekah Cummings is a candidate for Lt. Governor of Utah, running on Brian King’s ticket for Governor in November. She brings a unique perspective to another facet of the educational system through her experiences as a librarian, educator, and advocate. 

In this episode, Rebekah shares about the progression of her involvement in local advocacy to state politics, and the rewards and challenges of advocacy work. She provides an insider perspective of the history of book banning legislation in the state of Utah. She describes the value of assuming good intentions in other people, and the importance of “communicating across the aisle” in the State legislature. She and Ramira discuss what we lose when we limit the stories we read, and how finding an issue you care about and feel you can make a difference in can be an “antidote to despair” in politics. Rebekah offers suggestions for how we can get involved in the school library book ban issue, through organizations like letutahread.org, or how we can support libraries in general, through organizations like EveryLibrary.

Rebekah has been a librarian for 15 years, for the last 11 at the University of Utah Marriott Library, where she is the Director of Digital Matters, a lab that provides resources to students and educators in how to use technology with a humanities approach. Rebekah served as the President of the Utah Library Association (ULA) in 2018-2019, which led her to build ties between the Association and the Utah legislature. She is currently Chair of the Utah State Library Board, Co-Chair of the Advocacy Committee of the ULA, and a founding member of the Let Utah Read Coalition. Rebekah views libraries as democratic institutions that serve our youngest populations all the way through to our eldest, invaluable resources, and community centers.  K-12 school librarians have a vital role in connecting readers with books they will love, helping young readers gain literacy skills, and showing students how to research. At the college level, that work continues as librarians educate both students and educators on data management, information literacy, research, and technological issues.

Find out more about Brian King and Rebekah at their campaign website: kingforutah.com

Support Rebekah with the "Readers for Rebekah" virtual fundraiser on Thursday, 8/29, from 6-7pm. Here is the link where you can donate to attend.

Since this episode was recorded on the 16th of July, there has been news coverage on how Utah is implementing the new law Rebekah talks about, HB29:

 It’s official: these 13 books are now banned from all public schools in Utah

More states are passing book banning rules. Here’s what they say.

Irene Gardea is a Speech and Debate teacher at Horizon High School in the outskirts of El Paso, Texas. This is her 16th year in education and her 4th year at Horizon, a public school in the Clint School District. She is also the Speech and Debate Coach and the team brought home its 5th consecutive 1st place team award this year. The team also went to the National Debate Tournament this summer, where some placed in the top 60 in their events.

Irene was nominated by her students and recognized as a National High School Speech and Debate Coach of the Year in 2020, and in 2024 received the Peter Piper Pizza Best Teacher of the Year award, again after being nominated by a student. Irene also leads the Horizon HS program for students who want to be teachers, a 4-year program called the Scorpion Teaching Academy. The program began three years ago with 8 in the first and second cohorts, and has grown to 25 joining for the third cohort this year. 

In this episode Irene discusses the challenges and rewards of teaching, both as a profession and for her personally. She shares her perspective on the opportunities that result from “doing extra"; the “way of the teacher"; the importance of “establishing your why"; and the benefits that can come with allowing ourselves to be pushed out of our comfort zones. Through sharing what inspires her to keep coming back to teaching year after year, we get a sense of how she inspires her students and why they nominate her for well-deserved recognition.

Dr. Lori Desautels joins Beyond the Roles to discuss the Tier I framework she created that integrates neuroscience, our understanding of the nervous system and its states, trauma, self-regulation, connection, and co-regulation within the context of education. Applied Educational Neuroscience (AEN) is applicable and potentially life-changing for every individual in the educational system, including children, adolescents, educators, administrators, and parents.

In episode 9 we heard about the application of AEN at a TItle I elementary school in the Salt Lake City school district. Jenn Haak shared how she provided a workshop for interested teachers throughout the year after COVID. Their increased understanding of their own nervous systems and those of their students had a number of unanticipated outcomes, including a sharp decrease in suspensions, and a change in status for the school. They came out of a Comprehensive School Improvement status for the first time in 10 years. And they moved to #2 in the district for overall growth, out of 17 Title I schools. 

In this episode, Dr. Lori Desautels, an Assistant Professor in the College of Education at Butler University, a former special education teacher, a parent of three, an author of many books, and an engaging global speaker, discusses the rewards and challenges of the work she does. She explains how the AEN framework evolved, how it differs from a typical Social and Emotional Learning curriculum (SEL), and how it utilizes what we know about how our brains develop and how our nervous systems work.  

The AEN framework can be applied by adults for better understanding of themselves and their students or children, and by children themselves, with easy to implement practices that we can incorporate into our daily routines. On her website, revelationsineducation.com, Dr. Desautels offers over a hundred focused attention practices that offer ways we can tune in to sensations, which make up the language of our nervous systems, and process them in ways that can impact our feelings and behaviors.

Dr. Desautels’ book Connections over Compliance offers a new lens for discipline that "benefits all students by reaching for sustainable behavioral changes through brain state awareness rather than compliance and obedience."

The follow-up book, Intentional Neuroplasticity, provides a message of resilience and hope, explaining how we can move from nervous system states of protection to those of growth.

Both of those books and the upcoming manual, Body and Brain Brilliance, can be found at her website, revelationsineducation.com.

Throughout the episode, Dr. Desautels also references:

Dr. Bruce Perry,  (What Happened to You?)

Resmaa Menakem

Breath, by James Nestor

Polyvagal Theory by Stephen Porges

Beyond the Roles host Ramira Alamilla revisits the goals of the podcast, which are to get a sense of the needs of various individuals within the educational system while providing a forum where those individuals can share their stories and experiences. The first season presents an array of varied perspectives of the educational system, revealing awe-inspiring everyday people who are making a difference with their unique combinations of skills, strengths and motivations. In this episode, Ramira shares some patterns and questions that have emerged for her from their stories.

The connections made with each guest have been the most rewarding and unexpected outcome of these conversations. Thank you to each one, for sharing and having the courage to appear on a podcast for the first time. And thank you to all who kept the momentum of these conversations going, through a ripple effect of making recommendations of other guests, as well as learning from those who contributed here. Most of all, a huge thanks to all those who are listening. 

Megan Lopez was a Language Arts and English Language Learner (ELL) teacher for 13 years and for the past 7 years has worn many hats at the Utah State Board of Education (USBE) in the Assessment and Accountability department. In her roles, she oversees the development of all the state tests for Secondary Language Arts (6th - 10th grades). In the state’s English Language Proficiency assessments she oversees screeners identifying English learners, and their growth and proficiency testing, and recently collaborated with colleagues in rewriting Utah's Title III law (for immigrants, refugees, and multilingual learners) to better do that. Her Professional Learning Community (PLC) involves collaborating and sharing resources with people in her roles from other states and participating in various committees in the WIDA consortium, which covers testing for ML students. Utah is unique in developing its own assessments and other states often want to purchase them because of their validity and reliability. Finally, Megan plays an important role in bridging the gap between data and positive outcomes for students, as one of the program managers for Assessment to Achievement (A2A), a publicly funded program that works to effect systemic change, in which schools and LEAs (Local Education Agencies) can voluntarily participate.

In this episode Megan discusses the crucial role accountability plays in ensuring that students are getting the education they have a right to. She explains how data can tell a story, and how we can become more "assessment literate," through a deep dive from a 30,000 foot level view of generalized data into a CSI-type investigative approach in the ways we can look at, understand, digest, and implement action plans from data. It helps to ask, what type of data should I be looking at, at what time, and for what purpose? Support is available, through team teaching, the use of coaches, and resources from the State. She encourages educators and administrators to be open to: collaboration for "collective efficacy," evidence-based decisions, and opportunities for growth. She emphasizes how USBE is there to help. Thank you, Megan, for sharing your invaluable perspective on this facet of the educational system!

For more on Assessment to Achievement (A2A), go to USBE Assessment.

Find out more about A2A's resources for LEAs in an A2A cohort's learning space. 

Check out USBE's assessment literacy online self-paced course here , under "Assessment Literacy."

Hayes Greenfield, an award-winning jazz musician, notable film composer, and innovative educator joins the podcast to discuss his background and his latest sound curriculum. Hayes began working as a teaching artist in public and private K-12 schools. Over the last 30 years, he has created and implemented various curricula for K-12 students and professional development workshops for New York City teachers of children with disabilities. He developed a pre-K program for PNC Bank’s “Grow Up Great Initiative,” has consulted with Head Start programs, and started the Jazz-A-Ma-Tazz school assembly program that has reached over 300,000 young people.

His upcoming book, Creative Sound Play, is an entirely play-based educational tool and resource for teachers that offers techniques and ideas that reach every child, including those who are verbal, nonverbal, or have disabilities. The guide invites teachers to use sound-making as a collaborative, play-based practice in the early childhood classroom, first to transform tricky transition times and ultimately to support children's development of executive function skills and social-emotional learning. 

In this episode, Hayes shares about how growing up with dyslexia impacted who he is as a musician and led to his interest in educating through sound and silence. He points out the difference between sound and music, and urges us to stop being “sound asleep.” He shares how you never know what will inspire a student, and how the children he worked with throughout the years inspired him to find ways of reaching them through the curriculum he has developed and shared in the book, Creative Sound Play.

Learn more about Creative Sound Play here.

Find out more about Hayes Greenfield at his website.

Find out more about the Jazz-A-Ma-Tazz program here.

Jennifer Haak is a school counselor at Meadowlark Elementary, a Title I school in the Salt Lake City School District here in Utah. She has a graduate certification in Applied Educational Neuroscience (AEN) and is currently working towards a Doctorate of Education in Educational Leadership. 

Learning to ask the question, "What experiences does this individual (colleague/student) need?" through the AEN framework empowered Jenn to understand and heal from her own traumatic encounter with a student in fight or flight that resulted in multiple injuries for Jenn and in her hospitalization, before moving to Utah. 

After the year of COVID closures and hybrid teaching, Jenn again applied that question, this time in support of her colleagues at Meadowlark. In this episode, Jenn shares about that experience and about the AEN framework. Through optional monthly professional development meetings, the participants learned about how the brain is impacted by trauma and how the nervous system works, about touch points that can lead to meaningful relationships, and co-regulation. They learned to consider their own needs, and gained self-efficacy in asking for what they needed, and a greater consideration of their students' needs. They practiced embodied experiences, and focused attention and energizing practices they could use for themselves and with their students. 

Combined with a few other initiatives and the systemic support of the administration, the changes in staff morale and student outcomes by the end of the 2021-2022 school year surpassed expectations. Among other powerful data Jenn shares here, Meadowlark moved out of a CSI (Comprehensive School Improvement) designation for the first time in over a decade. And they moved to #2 in the district for overall growth, out of 17 Title I schools.

For more about Intentional Neuroplasticity, AEN, and other resources from Dr. Lori Desautels: https://revelationsineducation.com/

Where you can find the digital books Jenn mentions, giving focused attention practices and resources for “building the nest”: https://revelationsineducation.com/free-lesson-plans/

For more on restorative justice:  https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/do-restorative-practices-work

Through sharing her experiences in teaching, Kelli Brown provides valuable insights into why some teachers may be leaving the profession. Right after college and the completion of her teacher certification, Kelli became an assistant and then an English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) teacher at an inner city public high school in Columbia, South Carolina. Only two and a half years later, she felt overwhelmed and burned out, and  was relieved to leave the profession to start a family, which did not seem possible while teaching. She is one of a third of new teachers who quit their jobs within the first five years.

In this episode, Kelli vividly describes the overwhelming expectations, the eye-opening disparity in access to facilities and resources, the pressures from the administration without enough support or autonomy, and how much she juggled as a 23-year-old ESOL teacher with 5 sections of seniors and 1 section of juniors and varsity girls’ soccer coach, with very little compensation. Her experience raises the question, "What more could we be doing for teachers?" As you will hear from her stories, there are many factors that contributed to her burnout, and no easy answers. 

Ultimately, however, Kelli credits the experience with developing her sense of empathy for students (“you never know what somebody has going on”) and teachers (“I think people’s minds would be blown to hear the ins and outs of what each teacher goes through on a daily basis”). Now she makes sure her kids know that “You can learn something from everyone…if you will give them the opportunity to teach you.”

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Some Thoughts on Teachers Crying in the Classroom (Cult of Pedagogy Blog and Podcast)