Bicycle For The EO Mind

By ZolidarBusiness

Bicycle For The EO Mind episodes

August 22, 2025Ownership Matters: Designing Trust and Participation in Online Communities
Meet Nathan Schneider (Assistant Professor, University of Colorado Boulder; Board Member, Start.coop). In this episode, we dig into how small business owners can make employee ownership (EO) a realistic exit path—and why Zolidar is designing a Wikipedia-inspired EO community to keep fragmented information fresh, accurate, and community-owned. We talk frankly about the hard parts of building participatory spaces and multi-sided commons: the need for clear early scaffolding (sometimes top-down) so participation matters from day one, and how the right software becomes an “Iron Man suit” for owners, advisors, and employees moving from curiosity to transaction.
Some takeaways:
Why a Wikipedia-style knowledge layer is key for EO: freshness, accuracy, and shared ownership of information
Participation is hard: pragmatic scaffolding early on so people actually contribute and benefit
Tech as a thought partner: a platform layer that speeds trust, widens reach, and supports real transactions
Day-one value design: seed content and peer owner stories so first visits create momentum
Right-sized governance for SMBs: don’t rewrite every rule—shift accountability and keep participation lightweight
Where the numbers work: tools that surface financially sound EO deals and run them on familiar professional rails
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar YouTube Channel.
MAILBAG | GET IN TOUCH WITH US We'd love to feature your voice in an upcoming mailbag episode! Have a question for us? Leave a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or send an email to [email protected]. Remember, voicemails make for more engaging episodes—we want to hear your actual voice!

ZOLIDAR LINKS:
https://zolidar.com
https://zolidar.com/podcast
https://zolidar.com/blog
https://zolidar.com/grid/person/all
ZOLIDAR FEATURES:
https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
https://x.com/zolidar
https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
https://www.facebook.com/zolidario
CHAPTERS
(00:00) - Introduction to Nathan Schneider
(00:24) - Exploring the Intersection of Technology & Social Change
(02:07) - The Twitter Campaign and Platform Cooperativism
(03:34) - Building New Digital Communities: The Case of Social.coop
(05:02) - Cultivating Community in Online Spaces
(06:49) - Diversity in Shared Ownership Models
(08:28) - The Challenge of Stakeholder Ownership
(09:47) - Shifting Accountability: From Shareholders to Stakeholders
(10:25) - Aligning Incentives in Cooperative Structures
(12:36) - High Fidelity Democracy: Liquid Democracy and Citizen Assemblies
(14:42) - Designing Participatory Spaces for Community Engagement
(16:22) - Success Metrics in Shared Ownership Models
(20:01) - The Power of Ownership and Participation
(23:14) - Navigating Fragmentation in Employee Ownership
(25:37) - Scaling Employee Ownership Awareness
(27:29) - Policy and Technology: A Dual Approach
(30:14) - Building Trust in Online Communities
(35:10) - The Importance of Governance in Online Spaces
(37:38) - Podcast Outro
CONNECT WITH NATHAN SCHNEIDER
Nathan Schneider
REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
Namaste Solar
Start.coop
Click here to view the episode transcript.
© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.
Note: This podcast is not investment advice and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.

LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2605NdSV35dhgtuB6cETBo?si=v9EdSd4iTDa7GDp4cxISTQ
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ownership-matters-designing-trust-and-participation/id1793273251?i=1000723116922
YouTube: https://youtu.be/d3hvknFTTMQ
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/6844010c-769e-48b1-8abd-fbbc4273db8c/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind-ownership-matters-designing-trust-and-participation-in-online-communities
YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=d3hvknFTTMQ&si=wcgh0GNzH5LnX3eb
Pandora: https://www.pandora.com/podcast/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind/ownership-matters-designing-trust-and-participation-in-online-communities/PE:1319560595?part=ug-desktop&corr=210763187052618403
PocketCasts: https://pocketcasts.com/podcasts/62832590-c704-013d-7d6f-0affcdcd4ef3/459eb03f-cc06-4f34-aa14-64ed0db0fbd6
38 min
July 31, 2025How a $50M Science Ed Company Used a Perpetual Purpose Trust for Succession
Meet David Vernier, founder of Vernier Science Education, a 43-year-old education technology company serving science teachers that transitioned to a Perpetual Purpose Trust (PPT) in January 2024. With over 100 employees and $50M in annual revenue, Vernier's transition offers valuable insights for business owners considering employee ownership alternatives.
Some takeaways:
How a CEO's retirement announcement after 30 years with the company became the catalyst for exploring various exit options
Why the Perpetual Purpose Trust model appealed to Vernier after considering ESOPs, strategic sales, and other options
The creative financing structure: founders donated 50% of their shares while creating seller financing for the remainder
How maintaining company culture, including daily sports activities, sustainability initiatives, and a family-like atmosphere was central to their exit planning
The dual challenges of transitioning ownership while navigating post-pandemic supply chain disruptions that affected company valuation
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar YouTube Channel.
MAILBAG | GET IN TOUCH WITH US We'd love to feature your voice in an upcoming mailbag episode! Have a question for us? Leave a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or send an email to [email protected]. Remember, voicemails make for more engaging episodes—we want to hear your actual voice!

ZOLIDAR LINKS:
https://zolidar.com
https://zolidar.com/podcast
https://zolidar.com/blog
https://zolidar.com/grid/person/all
ZOLIDAR FEATURES:
https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
https://x.com/zolidar
https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
https://www.facebook.com/zolidario
CHAPTERS
(00:00) - The Journey of Vernier Science Education
(05:40) - Exploring Ownership Transitions
(10:52) - Understanding Perpetual Purpose Trusts
(20:07) - Navigating Financial Challenges
(28:09) - Leadership Changes and Future Directions
(41:59) - Introduction and Call to Action
(42:46) - Podcast Outro
CONNECT WITH VERNIER SCIENCE EDUCATION
Vernier Science Education
REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
David Vernier (Founder)
Natalie Reitman-White (Purpose Owned, Purpose Trust Ownership Network)
Peter Koehler (Lumo Group)
Organically Grown Company (Peer PPT company)
Local Ocean Seafoods (PPT restaurant)
DAVID'S FAVORITE QUOTE
"Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans."

Click here to view the episode transcript.
© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.
Note: This podcast is not investment advice and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.

LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2flY9px357tBles6PreW3R?si=6SAkFDemQeCwCf7w478CVA
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-a-%2450m-science-ed-company-used-a/id1793273251?i=1000720145349
YouTube: https://youtu.be/Nx9E-g-mNxE
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com.mx/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/b3141326-3ce8-41b6-a826-624d5609ad1a/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind-how-a-50m-science-ed-company-used-a-perpetual-purpose-trust-for-succession
YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx9E-g-mNxE&si=vvHI0hsBhd4cq5hV
Pandora: https://pandora.app.link/ocAgTPnJsVb
PocketCasts: https://pca.st/tusa7mwk
43 min
July 30, 2025A Value Driven Exit: How a Financial Advisory Firm Became a Perpetual Purpose Trust
Meet Michael Kramer from Natural Investments, a financial advisory firm specializing in socially responsible investing that transitioned to a Perpetual Purpose Trust (PPT) in 2023. After joining as the firm's third financial advisor in 2000, Michael served as managing partner from 2007 to 2023 before becoming a trust steward and manager during their innovative ownership transition.

Some takeaways:
How the growing valuation of their successful firm made traditional succession planning impossible, as younger advisors couldn't afford to buy in
Why they rejected lucrative acquisition offers from larger firms to preserve their mission of "using money as a tool for social change"
Their creative financing approach: borrowing from RSF Social Finance for the down payment, with customized promissory notes for each exiting partner
How they decoupled governance from ownership by creating a Trust Stewardship Committee with 3-year rotating terms to increase diversity in leadership
The importance of early stakeholder engagement in the transition process to gain buy-in and incorporate diverse perspectives
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar YouTube Channel.
MAILBAG | GET IN TOUCH WITH US We'd love to feature your voice in an upcoming mailbag episode! Have a question for us? Leave a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or send an email to [email protected]. Remember, voicemails make for more engaging episodes—we want to hear your actual voice!

ZOLIDAR LINKS:
https://zolidar.com
https://zolidar.com/podcast
https://zolidar.com/blog
https://zolidar.com/grid/person/all
ZOLIDAR FEATURES:
https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
https://x.com/zolidar
https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
https://www.facebook.com/zolidario
CHAPTERS
(00:00) - Introduction to Natural Investments and Transition Planning
(02:53) - Challenges in Business Ownership and Succession
(05:27) - Exploring Alternative Ownership Structures
(08:09) - Values Alignment in Consulting and Decision Making
(11:05) - Maintaining Culture and Legacy During Transition
(13:33) - Financial Considerations and Valuation Process
(16:34) - Financing the Transition and Community Impact
(18:59) - Normalizing Financials and Predicting Growth
(21:54) - Aha Moments in Trust Stewardship and Governance
(31:15) - Leadership Development and Trust Stewardship
(32:30) - Defining Purpose and Objectives
(34:15) - Governance Structures and Legal Frameworks
(37:02) - Navigating Legal Documentation
(38:36) - Financial Planning and Scenario Modeling
(39:07) - Preparing for Worst-Case Scenarios
(41:45) - Engaging Stakeholders in the Transition
(43:47) - Reflections on the Transition Process
(46:09) - Future Goals and Technology's Role
(48:38) - Advice for Business Owners on Exiting
(54:48) - Podcast Outro
CONNECT WITH NATURAL INVESTMENTS
Natural Investments
REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
Michael Kramer (Former Managing Partner, Trust Steward)
RSF Social Finance (Lender)
Organically Grown Company (PPT Pioneer)
Lumo Group and Purpose Owned (Consultants)
The Resilient Investor (Book)
MICHAEL'S FAVORITE QUOTE
"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see." - Henry David Thoreau

Click here to view the episode transcript.
© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.

Note: This podcast is not investment advice and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.

LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/386mgvtP4NU6P4ZWnxccvr?si=FDlB-02ARUao2O9pbnAavg
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-value-driven-exit-how-a-financial-advisory/id1793273251?i=1000719752190
YouTube: https://youtu.be/UIzvXfi87VE
YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=UIzvXfi87VE&si=T7iH7144yWYgyyva
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/b1f123af-56bd-46e5-b847-40e6366c1379/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind-a-value-driven-exit-how-a-financial-advisory-firm-became-a-perpetual-purpose-trust
Pandora: https://www.pandora.com/podcast/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind/a-value-driven-exit-how-a-financial-advisory-firm-became-a-perpetual-purpose-trust/PE:1319337804?part=ug-desktop&corr=210763187052618403
PocketCasts: https://pca.st/jv9567q0
55 min
July 30, 2025When Buyers Don't Knock: ShopBot's Profitable EOT Exit
Meet Ted Hall, founder and board chair of ShopBot Tools, and Anne-Claire Broughton, founder of Broughton Consulting and former executive director of the North Carolina Employee Ownership Center. Founded in 1996 in Durham, North Carolina, ShopBot designs, manufactures, and distributes computer numerically controlled (CNC) routers with about 35 employees.

Some takeaways:
How being an open-book management company with profit sharing perfectly paved the way for their EOT transition.
Ted’s innovative earn-out structure as a 70% shareholder—taking 10% every year for 10 years—aligning his incentives with the company’s ability to operate profitably, reinvest, and continue profit sharing throughout the buyout.
Why ShopBot’s fluctuating profitability made it less appealing to third-party buyers, even though it was consistently profitable overall, making employee ownership the most sensible exit path.
The importance of state trust laws when planning for an EOT transition—North Carolina’s trust law played a key role in ShopBot’s unique governance structure.
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar YouTube Channel.
MAILBAG | GET IN TOUCH WITH US
Have a question for us? Leave a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or send an email to [email protected].

CHAPTERS
(00:00) - Introduction to ShopBot Tools and Employee Ownership
(02:54) - The Challenge of Transitioning from Business Owner to Exiting
(08:34) - Common Experiences in Business Succession Planning
(09:37) - Family Legacy and Profit Sharing in Business
(13:38) - Open Book Management and Employee Engagement
(15:49) - Understanding EBITDA and Its Role in Business Transition
(16:26) - Realizations About Employee Ownership and ESOPs
(17:24) - Discovering the EOT Model and Its Benefits
(21:36) - Establishing Governance and Employee Voice in EOT
(24:35) - Navigating the Transition Process and Legal Considerations
(26:38) - Navigating Funding Challenges for Employee Ownership
(31:46) - Transitioning to Employee Ownership: Lessons Learned
(35:50) - The Roadmap to Employee Ownership Transition
(37:54) - Evaluating Employee Ownership as an Exit Strategy
(41:59) - The Role of Technology in Employee Ownership
(45:25) - Empowering Employees Through Financial Literacy
(47:18) - Podcast Outro
ZOLIDAR LINKS:
https://zolidar.com
https://zolidar.com/podcast
https://zolidar.com/blog
https://zolidar.com/grid/person/all
ZOLIDAR FEATURES:
https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
https://x.com/zolidar
https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
https://www.facebook.com/zolidario

KEY TERMS USED IN THIS EPISODE:
EOT (Employee Ownership Trust)
ESOP (Employee Stock Ownership Plan)
EBITDA
Open Book Management
Click here to view the episode transcript.
REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
Chris Michael (EOT Advisors)
Purpose Trust Ownership Network (PTON)
The Great Game of Business
North Carolina Employee Ownership Center
Broughton Consulting
National Center for Employee Ownership (NCEO)
WHAT TED WANTS TO HEAR FROM AUDIENCE MEMBERS
Ted wants to hear from other companies or founders considering a transition - especially those who may be interested in learning more about Employee Ownership Trusts (EOTs) or are navigating their own transition planning process. Find Ted on the Grid!

© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.
Note: This podcast is not investment advice and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.
LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5xkwye4574eviX5ZdbmR9u?si=925c7ee650da4a1b
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/when-buyers-dont-knock-shopbots-profitable-eot-exit/id1793273251?i=1000714654316
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/ccaa0f30-7938-4c0e-9686-2c2e4ac5320c/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind-when-buyers-don't-knock-shopbot's-profitable-eot-exit
YouTube: https://youtu.be/jeuVvDxvvto
YouTube Music: https://youtu.be/jeuVvDxvvto?si=ufpdyzS0w8oXO9hV
PocketCasts: https://pocketcasts.com/podcasts/62832590-c704-013d-7d6f-0affcdcd4ef3/12b211ac-9c18-4ef6-9...
48 min
July 30, 2025Nature Has a Seat: Biohabitats' Evolution Into a Purpose Trust
In this episode of Bicycle for the EO Mind, we speak with Keith Bowers, founder of Biohabitats, an ecological restoration firm that transitioned to a Perpetual Purpose Trust in 2023. Founded in 1982, Biohabitats has spent over 40 years restoring the earth and inspiring ecological stewardship. Their unique transition preserves the company's values and mission for generations to come.

Key Takeaways:
Keith's deep ecology philosophy that "we are the rocks dancing" reflects Biohabitats' understanding that everything in nature is connected and alive.
Unlike selling to private equity or competitors, the Perpetual Purpose Trust model allows Biohabitats to practice capitalism differently - prioritizing purpose over profit maximization.
In a groundbreaking move, Biohabitats legally codified nature as having a seat on their Trust Stewardship Committee, with Keith serving as the initial "Nature Guardian".
Rather than completely exiting, Keith has transitioned to a role where he can focus on the ecological restoration work he loves while leaving operations to new leadership.
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar YouTube Channel.
MAILBAG | GET IN TOUCH WITH US
Have a question for us? Leave a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or send an email to [email protected].

ZOLIDAR LINKS:
https://zolidar.com
https://zolidar.com/podcast
https://zolidar.com/blog
https://zolidar.com/grid/person/all
ZOLIDAR FEATURES:
https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
https://x.com/zolidar
https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
https://www.facebook.com/zolidario
CHAPTERS
(00:00) - Introduction to BioHabitats and Keith Bowers
(02:39) - Legacy and Transition Planning
(05:24) - Employee Ownership and Governance Structure
(08:15) - Valuation and Fairness in Buyout
(10:40) - Financing the Transition
(13:47) - Education and Stakeholder Engagement
(16:14) - Choosing Advisors and the Deal Team
(18:51) - Matrix Analysis for Ownership Models
(21:50) - Legal Considerations and Trust Formation
(24:31) - Celebration of Transition and Future Vision
(30:26) - Navigating Legal Complexities in Business Transitions
(32:52) - Dismantling and Restructuring: The Case of Biohabitats
(36:36) - Purpose-Driven Governance: The Role of Trusts
(40:09) - Checks and Balances: Ensuring Accountability in Purpose Trusts
(44:03) - Leveraging Technology for Seamless Transitions
(48:04) - Post-Transition Reflections: The Impact of Purpose Trusts
(51:21) - The Role of Nature in Business Governance
(54:45) - Advice for Future Business Exits: Planning for Legacy
(56:27) - Connecting with Keith: Resources and Next Steps
(58:04) - Introduction and Call to Action
(58:50) - Podcast Outro
CONNECT WITH BIOHABITATS

REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
Keith Bowers (Founder)
Biohabitats' Leaf Litter Journal
KEY TERMS USED IN THIS EPISODE:
PPT (Perpetual Purpose Trust)
ESOP (Employee Stock Ownership Plan)
S Corporation
C Corporation
AOE (Alternative Ownership Enterprise)

Click here to view the episode transcript.
© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.
Note: This podcast is not investment advice and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.

LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6rJeeymjEPwHywDDnSluR0?si=9622cd2c58c44ec4
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nature-has-a-seat-biohabitats-evolution-into/id1793273251?i=1000717523206
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/c4b47f45-cb10-4bc5-b231-7c4ec69f6b65/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind-nature-has-a-seat-biohabitats'-evolution-into-a-purpose-trust
YouTube: https://youtu.be/5waCQuoAO-0
YouTube Music: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=5waCQuoAO-0&si=cjTeOfGfu9qDJAK-
Audible: https://www.audible.in/pd/B0FHQCZ9ZC?source_code=ASSGB149080119000H&share_location=pdp
Pandora: https://pandora.app.link/Mf5o454f3Ub
PocketCasts: https://pca.st/gtyktuw5
1 hr
March 27, 2025ACE in the Hole: ACE Hardware’s Gina Schaefer on Becoming an ESOP
Meet Gina Schaefer, founder and former CEO of A Few Cool Hardware Stores, and current CEO Craig Smith. Based in the Washington-Baltimore region, they are an ESOP of 13 brick and mortar hardware stores, generating roughly $50M in annual sales, which transitioned in 2021, creating over a hundred employee owners.
Some takeaways:
How an excited employee owner at New Belgium Brewery, and realizing employees paid $0 to become owners convinced Gina and her CFO husband Marc to choose an ESOP exit
The Hogan leadership assessment helped Gina zero in on change management as a key trait to find in her successor, Craig
Gina and Craig’s quest to professionalize the neighborhood brick and mortar hardware store retail experience – including building significant wealth for employee owners
Gina had to overcome obstacles as a woman in a male-dominated business world, including how she let go of the title “CEO".
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar YouTube Channel.
MAILBAG | GET IN TOUCH WITH US
Have a question for us? Leave a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or send an email to [email protected].

ZOLIDAR LINKS:
https://zolidar.com
https://zolidar.com/podcast
https://zolidar.com/blog
ZOLIDAR FEATURES:
https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
https://x.com/zolidar
https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
https://www.facebook.com/zolidario
CHAPTERS
(00:00) - Chapter 1
(00:00) - Introduction to Employee Ownership
(04:35) - The Concept of Recovery Hardware
(04:35) - Hiring for Impact: Building Generational Wealth
(05:05) - Mentorship and Guidance in Transition
(06:06) - The Role of Employee Ownership Exchange Network
(06:48) - Craig's Journey into Hardware Ownership
(07:42) - Navigating Employee Ownership
(08:25) - Learning from Mentors in the ESOP Process
(09:22) - Exploring Ownership Options
(10:10) - The Value of ESOPs
(11:01) - Tools and Resources for ESOPs
(11:18) - Financial Considerations in the ESOP Decision
(11:54) - Navigating Financial Considerations in Business Transitions
(13:19) - The ESOP Advantage: Employee Ownership and Tax Benefits
(14:42) - Professionalizing Retail: The Impact of Employee Ownership
(16:42) - Building Relationships: The Role of National Cooperative Bank
(18:44) - Manifesting Success: The Journey of Business Growth
(20:09) - Valuation Insights: Understanding Business Worth
(21:20) - Understanding Valuation in ESOPs
(22:21) - Transitioning to an ESOP: The Journey Begins
(24:59) - Change Management and Leadership Dynamics
(29:28) - Documenting Processes for a Smooth Transition
(30:35) - Empathy in Leadership During Change
(31:10) - Navigating Change and Employee Concerns
(33:30) - Understanding ESOPs and Employee Engagement
(34:32) - Streamlining the Transition Process
(37:50) - Setting Goals and Metrics for Success
(38:59) - Emotional Aspects of Transitioning to ESOPs
(41:31) - Call to Action
(42:16) - Podcast Outro
CONNECT WITH A FEW COOL HARDWARE STORES
https://acehardwaredc.com/
A Few Cool Hardware Stores
REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
Gina Schaefer (Founder, Former CEO):Gina Schaefer
Craig Smith (Current CEO):Craig Smith
Marc Friedman (Former CFO):Marc Friedman
Employee Ownership Expansion Network (EOX): Employee Ownership Expansion Network (EOX)
Steve Storkan (Executive Director, Employee Ownership Expansion Network): Steve Storkan
One America (ESOP service provider/Third Party Administrator): OneAmerica Financial
National Cooperative Bank (Finance): National Cooperative Bank
Click here to view the episode transcript.
© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.
Note: This podcast is not investment advice and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.
LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/756alSrywJ5dAN8BRJoQ62
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ace-in-the-hole-ace-hardwares-gina-schaefer-on/id1793273251?i=1000701114490
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7AQl8eBpUY
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/d0ec6c75-4f41-46d9-b6a9-98fde0e3259f/
YouTube Music: https://youtu.be/nQb-HcvGh8g
Pandora: https://www.pandora.com/podcast/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind/ace-in-the-hole-ace-hardwares-gina-schaefer-on-becoming-an-esop/PE:1317598905
PocketCasts: https://play.pocketcasts...
43 min
March 12, 2025Why a Bay Area IT Firm Made the Transition From Owner-Operated to Worker-Owned to Secure Its Future
Meet Jerry Skomer, founder of Alternative Technologies, an IT and telecom services company that supports Bay Area nonprofits and progressive businesses. Jerry faced a crucial challenge: how to preserve the company’s values, protect employees’ jobs, and ensure continued community service. His solution? Transforming Alternative Technologies into a worker-owned cooperative. The transition wasn’t easy—COVID-19 included, Jerry financed a third of the sale, structured an earnout over six years, and retained management hiring control for three.

In this episode, you’ll hear about:
Balancing Agility and Risk Aversion
Trusting the Process
The Role of a Task Force
Sharing the Risk
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar YouTube Channel.
MAILBAG | GET IN TOUCH WITH US
We’d love to feature your voice in an upcoming mailbag episode! Have a question for us? Leave a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or send an email to [email protected]. Voicemails make for more engaging episodes—we want to hear your actual voice!

ZOLIDAR LINKS:
Home Page: https://zolidar.com
Podcast: https://zolidar.com/podcast
Blog: https://zolidar.com/blog
ZOLIDAR FEATURES:
Day Zero Guide: https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
Aha! Planner: https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
Zolid AI: https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
X: https://x.com/zolidar
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/zolidario
CHAPTERS
(00:00) - - Introduction and Personal Philosophy
(04:36) - - Transitioning Out of Business Ownership
(07:02) - - Planning the Exit Strategy
(08:35) - - Forming the Task Force
(10:52) - - Navigating the Pandemic's Impact
(13:22) - - Understanding Business Valuation
(15:34) - - Exploring Employee Ownership
(17:47) - - Financing the Transition
(20:10) - - The Role of the Lender
(22:12) - - Trusting the Process of Transition
(25:56) - - Transitioning to Governance: A New Role
(28:51) - - Building a Supportive Team for Transition
(32:13) - - Navigating Legal Complexities in Co-op Formation
(33:08) - - The Impact of Technology on Transition Processes
(39:13) - - Reflections on Employee Ownership as an Exit Strategy
(42:06) - - Proud Achievements and Lessons Learned
(43:09) - - First Steps for Business Owners Considering Exit
(45:19) - - Call to Action
(46:03) - - Podcast Outro
Key Terms Used in This Episode:
EBITDA
Valuation Multiples
Earnout
Indicative Valuation

CONNECT WITH ALTERNATIVE TECHNOLOGIES
Website: https://www.alternativetechs.com/
Zolidar's Community: Alternative Technologies
REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
Jerry Skomer (Former Owner & President): Jerry Skomer
Shared Capital: Shared Capital Cooperative
Project Equity: Project Equity
Click here to view the episode transcript.
© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.
Note: This podcast is not investment advice and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.
LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5U2Y5MEglF9gORUTm5PoEc
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-a-bay-area-it-firm-made-the-transition-from/id1793273251?i=1000698910452
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhVHuksMGDY
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/6698256b-be4a-4469-a5ae-dc7edfccb68f/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind-why-a-bay-area-it-firm-made-the-transition-from-owner-operated-to-worker-owned-to-secure-its-future
YouTube Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMPJD1I37uw&list=PL8U8GQPqeIJh_1UfW234RmiPXJ6PYE1o1
PocketCasts: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/62832590-c704-013d-7d6f-0affcdcd4ef3/96b63b6e-5b67-421c-8227-1707c070dd92
Pandora: https://www.pandora.com/podcast/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind/why-a-bay-area-it-firm-made-the-transition-from-owner-operated-to-worker-owned-to-secure-its-future/PE:1317452291
47 min
February 27, 2025Austin Consulting Firm becomes a Worker Co-op | How the Business Owner Retired, Got a Fair Valuation & Benefited Employees
Meet Linda Wurzbach, who recently retired from a successful 12-person education consultancy using an employee ownership model. Resources for Learning’s path to a worker co-op showcases a successful transition and the win-win for Linda and her employees.

In this episode you’ll hear about:
Using revenue-based financing to make employee ownership work for their professional services business
Landing the exit - getting fair value while preserving her legacy and team
Bringing several advisors together who worked together as a transition team
The Resources for Learning team bloomed as they embraced democratic co-op culture and decision-making
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar Youtube Channel.
MAILBAG | GET IN TOUCH WITH US
We'd love to feature your voice in an upcoming mailbag episode! Maybe you've got a question for us? You can leave us a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or if you prefer, send an email to [email protected]. But remember, voicemails make for more engaging episodes—we want to hear your actual voice!

ZOLIDAR LINKS:
Home Page: https://zolidar.com
Podcast: https://zolidar.com/podcast
Blog: https://zolidar.com/blog
ZOLIDAR FEATURES:
Day Zero Guide: https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
Aha! Planner: https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
Zolid AI: https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
X: https://x.com/zolidar
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/zolidario
CHAPTERS
(00:00) - Introduction to Resources for Learning
(02:53) - The Journey to Employee Ownership
(05:18) - Exploring Co-op Models
(07:50) - Valuation and Financial Considerations
(10:11) - Building a Support Network
(12:35) - Transitioning to a Worker Cooperative
(14:19) - Employee Perspectives on Ownership
(16:51) - Challenges of Managing Change
(19:03) - Finalizing the Transition
(21:36) - Looking Ahead: The Future of the Co-op
(26:20) - Decision-Making Dynamics in Co-ops
(30:03) - Qualities of Effective Advisors
(32:39) - Navigating Financing Challenges
(35:00) - Building Relationships with Lenders
(38:26) - Employee Ownership and Board Dynamics
(42:43) - Pain Points in Transitioning to Employee Ownership
(46:58) - Encouragement for Future Business Owners
(48:17) - Outro and Call to Action
CONNECT WITH RESOURCES FOR LEARNING
Website: https://www.resourcesforlearning.net/
Zolidar Community: Resources for Learning
REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
Linda Wurzbach (Founder, President; Linda Wurzbach)
Annelies Lottmann (Director of the Texas Rural Cooperative Center at The University of Texas Rio Grande Valley; Annelies Lottmann)
Allison Curtis (ICA Group; Allison Curtis)
Jonathan Ward (Fund for Jobs Worth Owning; Jonathan Ward)
Jacqueline Radebaugh (Jason Wiener|p.c.; Jacqueline Radebaugh)
Josh Glickenhaus (Local Enterprise Assistance Fund (LEAF); Josh Glickenhaus)
Project Equity (https://project-equity.org/)
Click here to view the episode transcript.
LINDA'S FAVORITE QUOTE
“No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care”― Theodore Roosevelt
© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.

‍Note: This podcast is not investment advice, and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.
LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/34FzNqj3WYqzTJLnylrb7R
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/austin-consulting-firm-becomes-a-worker-co-op-how/id1793273251?i=1000696575644
YouTube: https://youtu.be/CvrU7gH-0o0
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/91167637-9657-4e77-a735-24e0906a385b/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind-austin-consulting-firm-becomes-a-worker-co-op-how-the-business-owner-retired-got-a-fair-valuation-benefited-employees
YouTube Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3eGesmSZZk&list=PL8U8GQPqeIJh_1UfW234RmiPXJ6PYE1o1
PocketCasts: https://pca.st/episode/66c238aa-95c9-427f-bdf2-42789b855a3b
Pandora: https://www.pandora.com/podcast/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind/austin-consulting-firm-becomes-a-worker-co-op-how-the-business-owner-retired-got-a-fair-valuation-and-benefited-employees/PE:1317336015
50 min
February 06, 2025Building Eudaimonia as an ESOP: Employee Owners at JOMA Construction
John Newland from JOMA Construction needed an exit that would prevent culture disruption, offered financing, and guaranteed his team would be taken care of. Plus, they wanted to keep building eudaimonia.

In our conversation, John and Mackenzie share:
The journey from flipping houses to a 30-owner ESOP success story.
Why transparent communication from day one created trust throughout the transition
How seller financing aligned long-term interests between owner and employees and avoided the “us vs them” mentality
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar Youtube Channel.
MAILBAG | GET IN TOUCH WITH US
We'd love to feature your voice in an upcoming mailbag episode! Maybe you've got a question for us? You can leave us a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or if you prefer, send an email to [email protected]. But remember, voicemails make for more engaging episodes—we want to hear your actual voice!

ZOLIDAR LINKS:
Home Page: https://zolidar.com
Podcast: https://zolidar.com/podcast
Blog: https://zolidar.com/blog
ZOLIDAR FEATURES
Day Zero Guide: https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
Aha! Planner: https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
Zolid AI: https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
X: https://x.com/zolidar
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/zolidario
DEEP DIVE ANALYSIS
Strategic Transition Planning
Eight-month timeline from decision to closing.
Core values guided decision-making: teamwork, continuous improvement, do the right thing, and WOW customer service.
Creative Deal Structure
100% seller financing avoided traditional banking constraints.
Structure aligned interests between seller and employees
Owner remained engaged post-transition
Demonstrated how smaller companies can make ESOP transitions work
Trust-Based Implementation
CFO represented employee interests alongside trustee.
Nine rounds of offer/counter-offer negotiations.
Transparent communication from initial announcement.
Ongoing education and engagement strategy.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to Joma Construction and ESOPs
02:55 The Journey to Employee Ownership
06:12 Core Values and Company Culture
08:54 The Role of Advisors and Trustees
11:53 Communication During the Transition
14:58 Understanding the ESOP Process
18:08 Negotiation and Complexity of ESOP Transactions
20:57 Regulatory Oversight and Employee Protection
23:53 The Importance of a Clear Roadmap
32:34 Key Documents in Business Transactions
35:33 Understanding Financial Feasibility
37:00 The Role of Financing in Employee Ownership
40:07 Liability and Employee Ownership
42:42 Navigating Bonding and Insurance Challenges
44:26 Advice for Small Business Owners
48:03 Aha Moments in the ESOP Process
50:32 Reflections on Employee Ownership
52:35 Post-Transaction Experiences
56:07 Future Planning and Goals
59:17 Closing Thoughts on Employee Ownership

CONNECT WITH JOMA CONSTRUCTION:
Website: https://jomaconstruction.com/esop
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/jomaconstruction/
REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE:
John Newland (Co-founder, CEO): John Newland
Mackenzie Gallagher (CMO: Mackenzie Gallagher)
Michelle Griffith (CFO: Michelle Griffith)
Steve Smith (ESOP Advisor) (Steve can be reached via the JOMA contact form here: https://jomaconstruction.com/esop)
Click here to view the episode transcript.
© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.

‍Note: This podcast is not investment advice, and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.
LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4b79OjrjaFSubG9YpKuE3n
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-eudaimonia-as-an-esop-employee-owners-at/id1793273251?i=1000686580483
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYQyb2L9tLs&list=PL8U8GQPqeIJgF2PeoiTeoVaFwl0tdIMxI&index=2
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/34c3b73e-9a9c-49e7-9609-62d341f66f42/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind-building-eudaimonia-as-an-esop-employee-owners-at-joma-construction
YouTube Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gh28XCJ5-E&list=PL8U8GQPqeIJh_1UfW234RmiPXJ6PYE1o1
PocketCasts: https://pca.st/episode/d250cf80-0847-42e0-b741-7ce5e2f1048c
Pandora: https://www.pandora.com/podcast/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind/building-eudaimonia-as-an-esop-employee-owners-at-joma-construction/PE:1317283379
1 hr 3 min
February 06, 2025Employee Ownership will Eclipse M&A for SMBs | Welcome to Zolidar's Podcast
Why do we believe in EO's growth potential? Facts and Trends - our favorite friends.
FACTS
3 million retiring small and medium business owners
$8 trillion in illiquid wealth at stake.
4 out 5 SMBs don't find traditional buyers.
TRENDS
The Succession Crisis is here: Millions of small business lack a succession plan and EO is a proven solution.
Bipartisan Policy Support is Growing: Federal & state incentives (tax benefits, capital access) are making EO more financially attractive than ever.
Technology is the Market Multiplier: Data science & AI are making EO faster, easier and more scalable, removing historical adoption barriers.
WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE
Why profitable, stable businesses often struggle to sell.
How the synergy of technology and humans in the EO loop can drive employee ownership adoption.
Why Zolidar is betting on employees as owners, the Airbnb moment for SMB exits.
The "EO leaky bucket" as the barriers stopping SMB owners from choosing EO and how we aim to fix them.
Click here to watch this episode on the Zolidar Youtube Channel.
DEEP DIVE ANALYSIS
The Traditional M&A Mismatch
Most SMBs aren’t a fit for private buyers. Buyers look for aggressive growth, not stable businesses.
EO offers a fair sale price without the uncertainty of third-party negotiations.
Tech as a Market Multiplier
Current EO processes are too complex, slow, and expensive for many owners.
Zolidar’s platform solves this by making EO faster, easier, and more scalable.
Day Zero Guide helps owners compare exits.
Aha! Planner makes financial planning accessible.
Zolid AI provides 24/7 insights for owners and advisors.
Fixing the "EO Leaky Bucket" Problem
Raising awareness isn’t enough—owners need clarity, conviction, and step-by-step support to move forward.
Zolidar provides trusted guidance, AI-powered insights, and a growing advisor network.
CHAPTERS

CONTENT | TOOLS
The Jobs to Be Done framework (read more here: https://jobs-to-be-done.com/what-is-jobs-to-be-done-fea59c8e39eb)
Iron Man/J.A.R.V.I.S. analogy (read more from a recent HBS and Wharton study here: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=64700)
PEOPLE AND ORGANIZATIONS
Ashish Agrawal (Founder, CEO: Ashish Agrawal)
Sonali Kothari (Founder, COO: Sonali Kothari)
Matthew Epperson (Podcast Host, EO Domain Expert: Matthew Epperson)
Our podcast's name is inspired by this Steve Jobs quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmuP8gsgWb8
Kiva.org
Jobs for the Future (https://www.jff.org/)
ZOLIDAR LINKS
Home Page: https://zolidar.com
Podcast: https://zolidar.com/podcast
Blog: https://zolidar.com/blog
ZOLIDAR FEATURES
Day Zero Guide: https://zolidar.com/exit-plan-guide
Aha! Planner: https://zolidar.com/exit-financial-plan
Zolid AI: https://zolidar.com/dashboard?zolidai=true
ZOLIDAR SOCIAL MEDIA
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/zolidar/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@zolidar
X: https://x.com/zolidar
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zolidar_com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/zolidario
MAILBAG EPISODES | GET IN TOUCH WITH US

We'd love to feature your voice in an upcoming mailbag episode! Maybe you've got a question for us? You can leave us a voicemail at 650-203-6565, or if you prefer, send an email to [email protected]. But remember, voicemails make for more engaging episodes—we want to hear your actual voice!
Click here to view the episode transcript.
© Copyright 2025 Zolidar, Inc.

‍Note: This podcast is not investment advice, and is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views expressed in this episode are solely those of the guest(s) and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host or Zolidar.
LISTEN ON YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST APP:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/70jyotfKK3BSppwEuum5xI
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/employee-ownership-will-eclipse-m-a-for-smbs/id1793273251?i=1000689641859
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c8A3kHID8k&list=PL8U8GQPqeIJgF2PeoiTeoVaFwl0tdIMxI&index=2
Audible/Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e9fe6479-8499-4a29-9b51-cc164d686d79/episodes/0fb09a5a-78eb-499e-83c0-70070b577440/
YouTube Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPlRCKmVHfk&list=PL8U8GQPqeIJh_1UfW234RmiPXJ6PYE1o1
PocketCasts: https://pca.st/episode/7423eb0e-b021-490c-a4ca-ef93d7b71d6f
Pandora: https://www.pandora.com/podcast/bicycle-for-the-eo-mind/employee-ownership-will-eclipse-m-and-a-for-smbs-welcome-to-zolidars-podcast/PE:1317283378
26 min

About Bicycle For The EO Mind

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Most small and medium businesses (SMB) struggle to sell — employee ownership is a proven exit path. Hear real stories from business owners who transitioned through employee ownership. Whether you're…

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About Bicycle For The EO Mind