Birth Words: Language For a Better Birth

This week's episode is a special one recorded AT the Evidence Based Birth Conference in Lexington, KY, where Dr. Sayida Peprah delivered two powerful keynote addresses. In this interview, Dr. Sayida discusses the importance of being authentic, humble, and curious when interacting with others from different cultures or circumstances.

TRANCRIPT:

Sara:

Welcome, Dr. Sayida, to the Birth Words podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Dr. Sayida:

Thank you.

Sara:

I wanted to talk with you a little bit about some of the really important work you're doing around cultural humility and helping birth workers being aware of how they can support those who have been really victims of transgenerational trauma. And so my question for you is, what guidelines would you give to birth workers who are striving to show through their language that they are culturally competent, sensitive and humble? How do they show that in their spoken interactions with their clients?

Dr. Sayida:

I think one of the most important things to me like as a psychologist who really, one of the most important parts of my work, especially working with people, typically in very intense situations when I'm coming in, or I'm being invited in or I'm being asked to be there, or they're being brought to me because there's like been a crisis … We don't know each other and there's a lot of intensity. I need to make like a very strong, immediate rapport so that we can like help solve the situation. So whether that's been like with the incarcerated population, and there's like aggression or frustrations going on, and the domestic violence shelter, I used to work in a center where women were coming directly from their abusive situation right to the emergency shelter where I was a therapist, and a psychiatric hospital working with people who had just attempted to take their life or just been brought in by family members out of concerns.

And so, in all the various situations, there isn't time to like, get to know each other, and I have to be effective at showing people that I actually care and that I'm listening to them and that I don't have any overt biases against them. Most pertinently, like why they're coming in like oh, that you were in an abusive relationship to start with, or that you found yourself in prison to start with, or that you tried to take your life, or cut yourself or whatever. So that comes into play a lot. And what I think is most important is that I actually do care.

So it's nothing that I do that's like a guideline, it's not a script. It's not like let me check and make sure that I do anything in particular, that I like, center myself, and I go into a space of like common humanity, where a person has found themselves in a very difficult situation. And I am like, blessed to be able to be with them at like their lowest moment and be with them, like as a human. And then I have some skills and some tools to help them through whatever it is.

And to me that's not very different. And how I approach being a doula, which is outside of that practice in that work, but with the same energy of your person who is going through—and a lot of times its first time moms that are coming to want to have a doula, or women who've had experiences in birth and people who've had experiences that didn't actually reflect for them what they wanted in their first birth. So they're really coming like, I need support, right? When you come to a doula like, I want help right in some ways, and so, how do I show you that you don't have to be guarded with me? That you don't have to worry about trust issues because I have some other agenda, is that I don't have another agenda, right?

Like I have to…really human beings really detect BS. Like we are like, masters at that, and especially people that have historical disparities, historical trauma, especially if it's race related, if they're marginalized populations, like they know, by protection and resilience of the community, like you teach every generation like you've noticed, ways that people protect themselves and dominant, like aggressive, potentially harmful spaces. And so that's a way of being that a lot of people have wherever they are marginalized, whether that's because of their gender identity, sexuality, whether it's race and culture, whether it's religion… of this, like, are you a safe person for me to be with people come with a guard, because they've had experience that they're not safe.

And so how you show that they don't have to be is that you actually just have like, ease with them like, but you have to develop that as a person, right, in your own time. Like, you've got to know various types of people and I always tell people you need to think about the people that you're most uncomfortable working with. And get to know people who are in that lifestyle, whatever that looks like. And maybe especially with technology, it might look like just being familiar with images, documentaries, stories, like real ones, not like stereotyped characters of groups, but like watch things and read things that are from the community you're interested in and hear perspectives. So then you can learn like the world view, the experience, like listen to presenters, you know, that talk about you know, historical trauma or talk about how it is to be a queer person in the birth world and not be accepted, or even like talked about in general space but yet you're there and yet you're pregnant and yet you need support and that maybe there are birth workers that you know, have that you know, that you can be safe with, like how could you ever know that?

But you could know that by the way people use language in open space, like if they're in a crowd of people like who they say hi to, like people notice that like if you're a bunch of people and there are people you feel uncomfortable with you typically avoid people you feel uncomfortable with. And I talked about that a bit and the implicit bias part that we talked about the other day, that people's eye contact is different, that their proximity is different to people that they don't feel comfortable with. And people notice that people, certain people avoid them often. And then it's like, oh, well, didn't seem too friendly. So probably not going to be the birth worker that I'm going to go to for this. Yeah. But the ones that are openly open and friendly and look you in your eye and greet you like basic human stuff, it is not deep. It's just real.

And so the question is like, if you want to be if you have the question of how do I be more culturally congruent to work with a population that I don't know? That question means that you are not comfortable either because you haven't had opportunities to gain comfort, which is not necessarily a fault of your own. It could be demographics, situations, and we talked about the here at this conference was really interesting because certain people live in worlds that they, you know, maybe the first black person that they ever met was when they were in college, right. And so they had to leave where they were from and never had an experience where people are different outside of the TV, you know, and so like, you're going to have stereotypes. But being able to have experiences where you could sort of work out your discomfort on your own time and not work on your clients time, right? Which is not amazing to be like, "Oh, my gosh, I've never worked with a black family! Like, I hope I can do the best I can!" I mean, I feel your love and you're wanting to be helpful, but I also feel like I don't know what it means that you never work in a black family and that, like you're hoping you're going to be like that everything's gonna go okay, right. What does that mean? Like, are we different kind of human? And what does that mean for you? Yes, there are cultural things, but like, if that's like how you come to it, I feel like you should… And I don't want to say I don't think that certain people shouldn't work with certain people in that way. But you need to, if you are not comfortable working with certain people you create harm in the interactions through micro aggressions through, like inter personal in congruence, like you did something and said something, you perceive something, you judge something that was incorrect, and I'm going to keep having to either be silent about it to not offend you or to not have another drama that I have to deal with. Or I'm just not going to talk about it and I'm silent, or I'm gonna say something, we're gonna have a conflict, or I don't know, if I'm gonna have a conflict. Now I'm anxious, right? Like all of that most people have to deal with when they're like going to providers, or birth workers and they're not sure that they are cool, right? So be a person that can be cool in space. And if you're not, get it together and go into that space, and also have a good referral system.

Like if you there are certain communities that you know, you're not. You have this conference in like for me, I haven't worked with all populations on the planet, but I've tried my best to expand my perspectives and like global perspectives and different types of family systems and different types of ways of seeing the world and spirituality but I have not sat in front of them worked and studied every single population, but I feel really confident and comfortable that if you put anybody in front of me, I could figure it out. Because I've learned to listen, I've learned to watch, I understand that I can make mistakes, and I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with being corrected. And I've had enough diverse perspectives that I don't believe in my own way, and enough to be like, malleable. And yet I'm challenged every day when I like come across a new thing and a new perspective that that, especially as I'm trying to continue to expand, so, but I'm not uncomfortable in a space where I don't know. But if you're that person, you are uncomfortable. You need to check that discomfort. Yeah, yeah, that's what I bet it's not about you haven't had interaction. It's about How comfortable are you? How much do you really feel like you can like just show up and some people don't like, I just love, you know, birth work. I just love the baby's coming. And I just love to support people who you know, really could have any support in the family system. And it doesn't matter to me what they look like and I'm just going to figure it out. And if you feel confident in that and you lead with the heart, a lot of times like those nuances people can figure out. Especially if they're hiring you, like they are willing to work with someone cross-culturally because they're hiring you, unless they've been assigned to you. And then that's something to consider how that feels for people as a birth worker, but they don't necessarily have a choice. And maybe they would have chosen someone more culturally connected to their family experience, and how you can show them that they can still trust you.

Sara:

Sara:

Yeah, thank you.

Dr. Sayida:

That was a long answer.

Sara:

No, I feel like I can't add anything.

Dr.Sayida:

I didn't even know if I was going to have a full answer to that question!

Sara:

You have, you've got the answers. Thank you. I think that's really important. You talked about like putting yourself in the spaces that you're not comfortable in until you're comfortable, so that when you're speaking and interacting, you can be yourself authentic. And because sometimes you grow up in a demographic situation where you haven't been in those spaces, but that doesn't mean you're shot. You can interact with those people, right? Just get yourself in those spaces, find comfort, and then yeah, you're able to..

Dr. Sayida:

And getting into spaces, to be clear, doesn't mean getting in and like doing a lot of talking right making it about yours. Right? It's like getting into a space and being an observer. Right, and like being asked to be in that space, so you will have to find someone that will take you on that journey. And a lot of times it makes them be like, boy, you're in somebody else's culture is like weird in most cases, maybe not. And some, but most of the time, you need to, like be invited into that space. But also, you must know that when you're there, it changes. Even though you're in the space, and you may have been in the space for 20 years or 50 years, you may have had family members that are from a cross cultural community. And again, there's still something that happens when there's another person in somebody else's cultural space, like it just changes. Sometimes the way that people interact, the language that they'll use, the relaxation, that they'll talk in their conversations. I'd really like thoughtfulness for like what the other person might experience of their… eventually, maybe you might be blessed to be so congruent to a cultural community that when you're there, they forget. That's a beautiful, powerful sacred space that you will never know. You got to… only they know that and you might think that like, Oh, it's not a big deal. I'm here. It's really like something that in the community, like people get to a space and they're like, man, I totally forgot so and so was white. Like, we just, you know, I never and then I'll be like, ah man…I'm sorry I said that I totally forgot you were here. And then it's like, that's actually like a positive thing, like if you're trying to learn to be able to immerse yourself in cultural space where people don't feel like it's about you, that they can have their space and you can just be in it. And I think everybody needs that sacred secrecy of their own space. But also, it's a blessing to be able to do the cross cultural thing because we must do it like in this world in America in all these spots. Yeah.

Sara:

Thanks for the clarification, and that's important. My other question for you is: as a birth giver of color, when did you feel the most seen and heard?

Dr. Sayida:

Okay. So when I was giving birth, I felt most seen and heard, actually was a unique situation. So my… I hemorrhage pretty terribly, but I didn't realize that because it was my first birth and I thought that, you know, bleeding was normal or something right and so I'm bleeding out there's towels with blood all over the place and they're like going in and I'm, like, comfortable but like all the while I'm like, "I got a baby. This is great." I've been trying to be happy and so in such pain because of what they're doing to stop the bleeding and I'm like, I guess this is a normal part of like childbirth. So really going through that and losing one lose one and eventually they're like, No, she needs Pitocin. And I'm like, that was like I had like all these rules like my birth plan was tight. No. pitocin no epidural, no, you know, episiotomy, nothing. Like I want nothing but myself and my doula and just like the nature. So what I was done having a baby already and like, I didn't understand the use of Pitocin after that, so my doula got in my face. Like in front of the midwife who was like you really need this. And I'm like, I don't care anything about any of this. Like, I'm not getting Pitocin, like I don't do medication like. And she was like, you need, I understand, like, I know, I know, you're natural, and I know like, I know everything I understand. You need this. You're bleeding too much. Like this is serious. Like, I need you to trust me, and I need you to let them give you medication.

And I was like, okay, that's fine.

And I was fighting. Like, I was not going down. That he was gonna believe that. I was like, No, I will not as when my ears are ringing and like, I'm like hearing like, just like I can't really see I just remember that whole state after birth, which I still… my memory, my memory of that is like, totally blissed out and in complete joy. But I was hemorrhaging. And that was what was physically happening to me. That made me that I interpreted as this beautiful blissed out like angelic space. I felt heard. And I feel so yeah, my doula heard me. But yet she could respond to like the need that I had and that, but she was like I felt her know that this is like against my will. And that she was also waiting for me to get permission. Like it wasn't like nobody can do anything to you like you, you have to make this choice and I if you trust me, you can make this one. I felt like that I felt hurt and I felt seen.

Sara:

And it sounds like you had a pretty strong relationship of trust with your doula that she was able to come right into your personal space and communicate with you, like I know where you're coming from. And I want you to know that I want what's best for you. This is really what's best for you.

Dr. Sayida:

And this isn't a sham. This is like a medical thing that we say we don't do all this stuff like this is like the time we do it. And I think that is very important like for birth workers, to you have to establish that level of trust ahead. It's the only thing that you have for when the when it goes to hell is that even if it's like mom is like totally, you know, or birthing person is totally beside herself like there's no way that transition period like I just can't do this give me the epidural, I just there's no way, I can't, like I just can't you're just looking at it like you definitely can.

But I know it feels like you can't but literally that is just a feeling that if you keep breathing and we keep doing this, you're the baby's gonna come out like now and that feeling of like I can't do this is like, is intense. I know that we all if we've done that with nothing with no medical, you know, medicine assistant, there is a point where you're like, I mean seriously, this is intense, like what the… like, Come on, baby like, I just like gotta be done this labor, right? But you can move through that. Like, if somebody can look you in your eye and be like, I know, it's terrible. And we're going to breathe. And we're gonna go through the next moment because you can do this, like the convincingness that I'm able to lend them that they gave me and me being a relationship with them seeing how powerful they are, like knowing that they can do it. We just like, it's a dance. And I think, you know, I never would say like, the power that a woman has in birth is going to come from the doula or the midwife or whoever is like the birth attendant, the family, but that trust that, like, I do respect you, when I see you, and I hear you, and I'm with you. And I believe in you, like, just, you know, we all need people to believe in us more like feeling weak, you know, and, and I mean, I just think that's like, it's golden. And it's just the relationship. It's literally like the relationship, it's the same thing a mother can do. You I've seen, you know, family members do it like, yeah.

My so… my best friend in high school, she was having a baby. And I was there, and her mom was there. And you know, she just gets a point where she's getting like, all like dramatic and, you know, nobody was paying any attention to her because everybody had babies, not me. But everybody else had had babies who was in the room, her sister, mom. And they were just like, yeah, like, this is not that bad, like, whatever it is, whatever it is, it doesn't matter because the baby's gonna come out. It's like not necessary. So there's a lot of like, not really gouging, which I don't know, she seemed to be okay with it, but there was a moment where I was like, "Girl, you got this!" You know, I mean, it was like well, I mean yeah, it's good you know?

And I remember just being like wow, that was so effective. Like, just like the confidence of someone who can tell you I see you in that… like, right you have it it's like okay, "It's almost over!" I mean, I mean, it was like such a short labor like I don't even remember us being there for any amount of time. We walked in and the couple hours later start to finish yet baby. But that's like the 17-year-old body. It's just, yes pretty that's… it's always like everyone's always worried about teen moms. Like all the teen moms I know had like really like shorter labor's and like moms like they have babies like in their 20s like me. And the accounts of them…not all but a number of them… It's like, in retrospect, like they have really like their bodies were like really ready and easy to have, baby. Yeah, that's a whole nother conversation.

Sara:

Cool. Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts and helping us consider just like… I like, how you're talking about seeing people. Like with your friend, when you felt seen. And in the … for the first question we talked about, how do you show this cultural competence and humility? It's just seeing people, right?

Dr. Sayida:

Yeah.

Sara: And just Yeah, like, like actually seeing, recognizing we have common humanity and yeah, recognizing that, and then that the interaction just…

Dr. Sayida:

Everything else follows… And the grace follows, like, if you make a mistake, if you say something, they feel the heart, and they're just like, "Oh, I actually this is how we do it." And "this is actually how I, you know, call myself" and "this is actually like, you know, my partner, not my husband" and you know, right… The details are like, people are so forgiving when they feel like you care about them.

Sara:

Yeah, yeah. Cool. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this episode, Sara takes a close look at some pairings of words commonly used in birth and what lexically defines each word. Often, one word better contributes to an empowered birth experience.

TRANSCRIPT:

Hi, and welcome to today's episode. As I said in the introduction, we will be doing some lexical decomposition during this episode. Stay tuned to figure out what that means.

But I wanted to start by drawing your attention to my new website. I've mentioned it previously, but I want to give a little more detail about the features on the website. And the new URL for the website is www.birthwords.com. And I want to thank my friend Julie Francom, for her help in designing most of the website. Thank you so much, Julie, for your work. It looks great! And you'll see when you go to www.birthwords.com, that there are a number of resources there for you.

On the homepage, you can get a feel for the mission of Birth Words: to help people realize the power that their words carry and to consider what they're doing with their words. And then you can also see that there is, at the bottom of the homepage, a place to share your ideas. Anytime you have a thought about some topic that's at the crossover between linguistics and birth: between the words we use and how we shape our world through language; and pregnancy, birth and the postpartum period, I'd love to hear your ideas. So there's a form there where you can enter your information. And if you're interested in being a guest on the podcast, I'd love to host you. If you just want to share an idea that you want me to explore, that's also an option that you can submit there. And of course, there's places where you can connect with Birth Words and follow me. My email address, [email protected], is listed there. You can follow me on Instagram and there's a link on the website. My handle on Instagram is @birthwords, and find me on Facebook. Again, the name of my page on Facebook is Birth Words. And I invite you to also join the Birth Words Community, where we have some discussions about the role that words play in the birth experience.

If you look back at the menu, there's a tab for Listen Now, which is where you can directly stream the podcast from the website. Of course, you can also find it on podcast apps, including Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, and TuneIn. But if it works better for you to stream it directly from the website, there's a place for that.

There's also a tab about Classes. And this is an exciting place to keep checking back, because it's going to evolve over the coming months. Right now, the classes that I offer are video consultations, private video consultations, either with birth workers or expectant families. I offer consultations where we'll walk through the language that you use as you're preparing for and giving birth, if you're an expectant birthgiver, or for birth professionals, the language that we use when we're supporting those giving birth. And we'll talk through some activities and exercises to help you be reflective, intentional and empowering with the words that you choose as you work through that birth process.

Keep checking back on this page though the Classes tab. Because coming soon, there will be a webinar that you can download from that page, a one-hour webinar for birth professionals that is an adaptation of the workshop that I gave at the Evidence Based Birth conference. And I'm also working on some more robust online classes that will come with videos and workbooks for you to do along with them. That will be coming in the coming months, both for expectant families and for birth professionals. So keep checking back.

You'll also notice that on most pages, there's a place for you to join the linguistic reformation: you can sign up for the monthly newsletter. And yes, it's only once a month, but I give you some news about what's going on in the Birth Words community. That's where you'll hear about new classes, and other opportunities and new products. And it's also where you will get promo codes that are exclusive to newsletter recipients. So make sure you sign up there so you can stay up to date with everything going on in Birth Words.

You click on the About tab on the website, there's more description of what we do with Birth Words. But as I said before, we want to make sure that the language we're using as we prepare for it, birth and support others through it, we want to make sure that our language is intentional, that it's reflective, and that it's empowering. You can find more information about that there.

And the last tab is newly added: the Shop tab. Right now, the products that are for sale on my website are solely affirmation cards. I invite you to check them out, though, there's a wide range of different affirmations that you could purchase. There's also the option to purchase a custom affirmation. So check that out. You can have those shipped directly to your doorstep. Beautiful cards for you to find encouragement and inspiration as you prepare for and give birth. Keep coming back also to the products tab. I've got exciting new plans for other products that will be coming on that Shop tab.

So again, please go visit birthwords.com, share it with your friends, colleagues, and I was gonna say random pregnant people on the street, but maybe I don't know if that's well advised. In fact, probably not. But share it wherever you feel that it could be helpful and empowering to somebody who is supporting or preparing to give birth.

Now, jumping into lexical decomposition, you may have noticed that I titled this episode Decomposition, which is really a terrible word. But I figured it would be intriguing. Its clickbait. So if you clicked, I won! Right? It's actually a thing that people do in linguistics—lexical decomposition—it just sounds like rotting matter. But what we do with lexical decomposition is taking a look at the semantics of words. So in linguistics, semantics has to do with meaning, and how meaning is conveyed through words and how words differently do that job. So lexical decomposition means taking a word and breaking apart the different aspects of its meaning.

So for instance, if I say woman. Lexically decomposing that, it has the features of female and adult and human. Contrasting it with man, man also has the features of human and adult, but has the male component rather than the female. That's a basic example.

We're going to go into different pairings of words that are used during birth, and most of the pairings have one that's more empowering and one that's more disempowering for you to consider which words will help you to prepare to have a positive and empowering birth experience.

But I'm going to start off with one that is just a clarification that comes up a lot in the work that I do. And that is doula versus midwife. Now both of these are empowering roles. Both a doula and midwife want to support and empower birthgivers. But sometimes, I say that I'm a doula and people think that I'm saying that I'm a midwife. So I just wanted to clarify: doula and midwife have in common the lexical features that they are support people for birthgivers. However, while a doula provides emotional, physical, and informational support, a midwife is the one who gives medical support and can additionally give that emotional, physical, and informational support. But a doula cannot give medical support. It's not in a doula's training to do so. So there's your clarification between doula and midwife.

A midwife can be seen as your medical care provider throughout your pregnancy. Midwives assess maternal and fetal well-being. They can monitor heart tones. They can do vaginal exams if requested or chosen by the birthgiver. They can assist in the birth of the baby and by actually catching the baby. Whereas doulas are going to be giving more of that emotional physical support, telling, giving lots of affirming words and phrases, lots of affirming back rubs and hip squeezes, and helping partners support the birthgiver. And that is the role of the doula. And of course pointing them towards information, encouraging communication with the care provider, who has that medical roll as well. So there's the difference for you.

Next, I want to talk about, like I said, we're going to go into some more terms, one of which is a little bit disempowering, or maybe a lot, and the other which is more empowered. And I'm going to switch up which one comes first… to keep you on your toes.

So I'm going to start with the first term, which is probably more typical in most circles and maybe one that you're more familiar with and then contrast it with another lexical term that has more empowering features. So the first is patient versus client. The hospital is the most common place to give birth in the US. And I'm not arguing that that should or shouldn't be. But one thing that happens in the hospital is that the birthgiver is given the title of patient. Some midwives and most doulas that I know choose to use instead the term client. So let's look at the lexical differences between client and patient. Both terms have the feature of a person receiving support or care. A patient however, is seen as ill or otherwise, maladied and infirm, more passive, whereas a client implies that they made the informed choice to hire the professional, and that the professional is working for them and their needs. So consider whether you want to use the term patient or client when you're referring to yourself in your situation as during pregnancy and birth, or as you're supporting others in pregnancy and birth.

The next one is consent versus choice. We talk a lot in the medical world about informed consent. And of course, it is very important to have conversations with people receiving care so that they know the risks and benefits and alternatives to any treatment that is proposed any intervention any option that is proposed. Sometimes we call that informed consent. Another way to think of it is informed choice. Informed consent has lexical implications. The lexical components of informed means that it was—information was given. Consent means that, that a choice was made but more like a choice was made by another and then followed through with, conceded to. Whereas the term informed choice, again, you have the aspect of information being given, but choice is a more active word that puts the birthgiver in the role of being the one making a decision, rather than conceding to a decision already made.

Let's take a look at the words pain versus pressure. Many women use the word pain to describe the process of labor and birth. Others choose to use other words like intensity or pressure. And I'm not here to tell you one way is right or the other or that you won't experience pain during birth. But let's take a look at what these words--let's lexically decompose these words, pain and pressure. Both have a lexical component of intensity. That's implied in the meaning of both words. Pain, however, seems to also have an indication that something is wrong or abnormal, whereas pressure doesn't have that feature. So some women choose to use the word pressure rather than pain because it doesn't include that lexical feature of an indication that something is going wrong, rather that an intense physical process is happening.

Here's another interesting pairing. When you talk about your water being broken or breaking during birth, we can use the word break or the term release. So let's take a look at those two words lexically. Break and release. Both of them have the feature of something being there and then letting go. But the word break has the sense that it ought to be that way, that it is broken. That it was whole and now it is broken, whereas release lacks that lexical component. It seems more that maybe it's a process that is supposed to occur. So sometimes, we can choose to say that my water is released, especially if it happened naturally and physiologically without medical intervention, versus water being broken. And so that's an interesting term to consider.

Let's talk about one last pairing of birth words and their lexical decomposition. Allow versus encourage. The context that these are typically used in birth is sometimes a birthgiver will say, my doctor allows me to labor or allows me to push in whatever position I desire, my doctor will allow me to have intermittent fetal monitoring, versus encourage in those situations. You could also say, my doctor encourages me to labor in whatever position is comfortable or to give birth in whatever position feels right. My doctor encourages me to have intermittent fetal monitoring, etc. And there's a big difference between the lexical components of these two words. Allow and encourage both it have the component of an outside person in some position of authority or trust, promoting an activity on the part of the other. However, allow has the additional component that that position that that person in a position of trust is in a position of control. And that their authority—allow—gives them that position of control in which they can allow things to happen or not to happen. Whereas encourage, while it still has the component of a position of trust, maybe even authority, does not have that component of control, but rather of encouragement of thus giving the encouraged more of a sense of power and control. Whereas allowing takes the control from the birthgiver and gives it to the authority figure, encouraging gives some of that authority to the birthgiver, to be a decision maker.

So interesting. Okay, fun. Like I say this a lot, but I could do this all day. If you're interested in doing this all day, call me and we'll set up a time to just chat. But I hope this gave you some things to think about with the terms that we use when we talk about birth. They really matter. They make a difference. And sometimes the terms that we use, we do so so subconsciously and without thought that we're not considering the implications that our language has. So I encourage you, whether you're preparing to give birth, whether you're supporting a birthgiver, remind yourself or remind the birthgiver of her role as a birthgiver, an active, not a passive participant in the process of bringing life into the world.

Outro:

Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this episode, I continue the conversation from previous episodes about the language surrounding infertility. Natasha Marchand, co-founder of Bebo Mia, discusses the unique situations of would-be expectant parents facing infertility, and what helpful and non-helpful language looks like.

TRANSCRIPT:

Sara Pixton:

Welcome to today's episode. Before we jump in, I just want to say if you have listened to the podcast before and you are loving it, please leave a review on your podcast app, so more people can find out about Birth Words and be touched by the things that we're talking about here. And now for today's episode.

Natasha has been working with women to support their wellness goals for over a decade. She is a doula trainer, a hypnotherapist, prenatal fitness and yoga instructor, and a fertility specialist. As the co-founder of Bebo Mia and co-owner of Baby and Me Fitness, she loves helping women feel stronger and more confident in their lives, whether that is in their birth business, or as they move fertility all the way to parenting. She is also the proud mother of seven-year-old Sadie, conceived with ART after a four-year struggle, and recently gave birth to her second daughter, Margo. Welcome Natasha, to the Birth Words podcast.

Natasha Marchand:

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Sara:

I'm so excited to talk with you and for our listeners to gain your perspective. Do you want to give just a quick introduction of yourself and your business and what you're doing here on the podcast?

Natasha:

Sure. Well, my name is Natasha, like you said. I struggled myself with infertility for four years before having my first daughter and then six years later, had my second daughter so there's quite a bit of a gap. And so there was many years where I struggled with infertility, but my background is in yoga and hypnotherapy, and obviously I'm a birth doula and of course to a trainer as well. So I use a lot of that to create programming for people who are struggling with infertility, because I felt like it was not only a professional thing for me but also really personal. And Bebo Mia itself as a doula training organization, or a training organization that works with birth workers who want to become doulas, for example, or perhaps work in the world of infertility or fertility as a fertility doula, which is something that's new and happening right now as awareness for infertility moves forward.

Sara:

I love that. And one of the reasons I reached out to you specifically is because I saw that fertility doula training program on your website, and that really struck me. Like you said, it's not something that I'm really familiar with. I don't know any fertility doulas personally, but having had a small infertility journey of my own—Wow, I wish I had a doula there to guide me through it! Because It can be so difficult to navigate. So I'm so glad you have that going.

Natasha:

Yeah, I didn't have a fertility doula myself either. But because I was a doula at the time—I was a doula for many years before I had children of my own—so when I learned that this was going to be a struggle for me when I was figuring that out, I just started applying my work as a doula into my own life. And then recognizing that there were so many other people out there who didn't have support, who were doing this on their own or in silence, or in shame even. And so I started that to apply that into group work and into other people until eventually it just became my work as a fertility doula.

Sara:

I love it. That's awesome. I am so excited to pick your brain a little bit here today. So I have some questions for you. The first one is: What unique challenges do would-be expectant parents meet when they first come face to face with fertility struggles?

Natasaha:

I, you know, I can speak to my own experience and I can also speak to the experience of other people that I've witnessed. But the biggest thing is that realization that, you know, the idea of having children goes from that, like, when will I have children? to IF I'll have children. That's such a shift in everybody's mind frame. You know, you kind of grow up thinking okay, I'll do what everyone tells me I have to do you know, I'll go to college, I'll meet somebody, we'll have a family, we'll buy a house… all of those things will happen. And then suddenly, your expectations aren't meeting reality anymore, and that just kind of like flips everything on its side. Especially if you're someone like me who's like, I'm a planner. Like, I was like, yep, I turned 30, I'll have my kids, I'll do… You know? I had it all planned out. And then suddenly it's like, will I even have kids? And if I don't—Who am I? Yeah, you know?

Sara:

Yeah. And this episode I wanted to build on Episode number seven. I talked about my infertility journey and some research that I've come across. That goes a lot along with what you're saying of this idea of a reproductive story, that some people have it more consciously. Some people, it's more subconscious, but it totally disrupts that when you're faced with like, not when but if, and just it's a really challenging journey.

Natasha:

Yeah. And it's, it really is what is this thing about me? You know, because like when you talk about language and you talk about infertility, like there's still really is this… It's not even unspoken, it's this value that's placed on women, in particular, to have children. Like that's part of our value. Like who are we, if we can't have children. And now that that conversation is changing, but there still is these words that are used for people who don't have children, you know, like we hear it all the time. Like you're selfish or you'll change your mind, or you're too self-absorbed, or like all of this language that goes around, you know, choosing to not have children. Yeah.

Sara:

Especially difficult when…

Natasha:

There's so much language around that. Yeah, like, Is there something I did wrong? Am I being punished? there's something wrong with me. So like, you can't really, you can't win, right? Because our value is so intertwined as women in particular, to having children. And that's something we learn so early on, as young girls.

Sara:

Yeah, all of this discourse that just surrounds us as we go. And then facing like, Oh, is that… Is that what I want for myself? Is that possible? with the infertility struggle, right? And you said, Am I doing something wrong? And I mentioned to you and now to our listeners that this episode is also building on a previous episode with Margaret Quinlan, who's a professor of Communications, who wrote… You're Doing it Wrong is the name of her book, because that's what people feel a lot from just the common rhetoric around pregnancy and motherhood and fertility. And that's a really, really difficult thing to be told either explicitly or implicitly and a really difficult thing to feel.

Natasha:

Yeah, yeah. And I think that there are so many people out there who think that by giving advice, they're trying to help you, or they are helping you, because they do think that there's something you're doing wrong, you know? Are you putting your legs up on the wall for 30 minutes after you have intercourse? No, Aunt Edna, I'm not. Like what? Like, you know, there's just so much. As soon as you say… as soon as you're brave enough to say that this is something you're struggling with, that's when you get all of this information that is not helping you at all. Really, it is just telling you what you said you're doing it wrong. And… these days. Are you relaxed enough? Are you going on vacation? Are you taking time for yourself? All of that is just blaming.

Sara:

And that's so difficult when you said like, it's so vulnerable to open up and say, Hey, this is something that I'm struggling with, and then to be hit with all of that does not honor the vulnerability, right?

Natasha:

That's right. And I if, if there was anything I wish I could do to change the language in this space, or to change the culture, in this space is to, to really have people understand how to best support somebody going through infertility. And like to explain that, quite often this unsolicited advice is not really welcome. You know, and even as, as birth professionals like we are, this can be a hard line for us because we want to believe in hope and to give people hope. And we can try it on this fine line where it's like, you know, if you do this, then you'll get pregnant, the same way often birth professionals can make that mistake of saying, if you have a birth plan, and if you give birth with this health care provider, and if you give birth at home or whatever, you know, your plan is, then you'll have the birth that you want. But really, that's, you know, we don't want to give people false hope, with infertility. You can do all of this thing, you can do everything. You can put your legs on the wall, you can go on vacation, you can do IVF. And still at the end of the day, not have a baby. Right? So we have to be really careful and mindful of our language and not offer this hope. Or it's like, oh, well, if you just did this, this would happen. Yeah.

Sara:

So what can we do? We're wanting to support people struggling with infertility. We know a lot of the things we shouldn't say. We know why… we've talked about why it matters, the way that we talk. You can add more thoughts about that if you want, but what do we do? What do we say what is helpful?

Natasha:

You know, I think being there for somebody and telling somebody that you're there for them is the most important thing we can do. Allowing them to be seen by you and allowing them the space to be vulnerable and, and validating the pain that they're going through is more important than anything else. Because that's what's not happening for them right now is they're saying that they're struggling, they're going through infertility. And what is coming back at them is usually something in between 'you're doing it wrong' or 'it's really not that bad.' I have a friend who has been struggling for four years or, you know, it's hovering somewhere in between that there. So what we need to do as healthcare practitioners is be okay with sitting in this uncomfortable space. Of this is just—can I swear?—this is just shitty. And that's what it is. And I am here to witness that with you and allow you to say how shitty this is to me.

Sara:

And friends and family. Oh, sorry, I jumped in before you were done. And you said, like as professionals, but also like as friends and family, too, we've got a mixed listenership on this podcast. And I think that that applies to both. Would you agree?

Natasha:

Absolutely agree. It applies. I agree. Yeah, that's right. There needs to be a shift in the way that we treat people going through infertility, because we don't talk the same way with people who have just been injured. You know? We don't talk to the same way who maybe just had a cancer diagnosis. We… this is a very special way that we talked to people who are going through infertility: we try to minimize it, or we try to be helpful, but we say the wrong things. Or we… there's not a recognition of how hard this really is. You know, just the little things that which I've heard, I'm sure you've heard before is like, once you realize it's going to be a struggle for you to have children, if that's something you truly desire to do, even things like getting a baby shower invitation in the mail is really hard. It can put you on the ground for, you know, days or weeks. And a lot of people don't understand that. They don't understand why you wouldn't show up. There really is not the validation around how painful this really is, how it leads to depression, how the stress rates are high for people who are going through infertility as people who are going through cancer treatments. There's not a recognition around that. It really is like, you know, 'it will happen when it happens,' or you know, 'maybe it's not your time.' There's such a minimization of the struggle that somebody is going through. Anyway, I get it. You can't really understand it until you've gone through it. But I'd love to see the culture change.

Sara:

Yeah, me too. I think those are really powerful thoughts. And I think I'm… Once you have gone through it, too, there's also this temptation to like, use it as your chance to be like, "Oh, I know, it's hard because let me tell you about how hard it was for me," which is also not a helpful response. Right? And if we're truly validating someone else's grief, we're not in platforming to, like, jump into our own, right?

Natasha:

Yes. As professionals, I find that's a hard line to walk regardless of if you're a fertility doula or a birth doula, right, because our own experiences shape what we think is good, you know, what, what we think are good decisions. And, and that's just human nature, but our job is to come at things in an unbiased way. And so when we're working with infertility, you know, as a professional, we're not really able to say, you know, well for me, this works and so it should work for you. It really still…we have to really come back to being like, here's all the information, what decision do you want to make? And also support you through that?

Sara:

Yeah, I appreciate that perspective. Another question for you. So how can those dealing with infertility harness the power of our words to help them in their journey?

Natasha:

One of the big things that I do in my work as a fertility doula is, is to look at the language we're using with ourselves now, and so for many of us, well for me, when I first began this journey of infertility, it was really like I was really down on myself, I really questioned my lifestyle, I really question things I had done in my past, I had a lot of negative self-talk. And, and I knew better because this is what I do for a living. And so I had to work really hard to fix that. And I'm not trying to say that everything we have to say is positive. And when it comes to fertility, like I said, I don't want to be giving false hope. I don't want to give people you know, thoughts…try to put thoughts in people's heads that are like, 'I will for sure have a baby' or, you know, 'close your eyes and imagine your baby.' That can be so hard and triggering for somebody who's going through infertility. So let's work on our thought process in not in a way that's like positive or nothing. But in a way that's like, how can we reframe this so it feels healthier in our in our bodies? So we're not hurting ourselves and causing ourselves harm as we go through this. Like we're not making it worse. And so what we do a lot of the times is come up with balanced statements. So statements that feel true, or can stop that negative cycle that causes us like a downward spiral each day, you know, like when you wake up your 'I'll never have a kid' and, you know, 'why? Why would I get up off the floor right now?' Like all those…that kind of language that spirals and changes your actions throughout the day? Like how can we create a kinder and more gentle thing that you can say in the morning? You know, so, rather than saying, 'I'll never have children,' we don't go right to positive and say, 'I will have children' and wake up and expect that that's going to be the outcome. But how can we say, 'you know what, today is the day that I'm going to practice my breathing techniques,' or work a little bit more on myself, or you know, spend the day, you know, whatever it is. I really do sit down and spend a lot of time with my clients to figure out what wording would work best for them to be gentler to themselves, so the day doesn't feel as hard. Yeah, you know, what, what can you be doing each and every day to make this journey better? And how can we implant that language into our subconscious rather than what was fed to us?

Sara:

I love all of your thoughts about that. And because I feel similarly with just my goal with this podcast and the other work that I do with Birth Words, the goal is not to be like, only positive talk, because sometimes there's some really negative stuff that already exists that you have to work through. But I like how you said, Let's reframe this, so it feels healthy in your body. And I think that reframing is critical.

Natasha:

Yeah. And it's really like when I sit with my clients, and I do this work, there are questions that I asked, you know, if your negative self-thought is 'I'll never have children, I'll never have children.' You say that over and over again in your head. Okay, so, just what about that statement is true? You know, have you been told that you'll never have children? Are all paths towards having children closed to you? What are you willing to do to have children? You know, like really start dissecting where that negative thought comes from. Who told you that if you never have children, you're not a good woman, you know, or good person? You know, where are these thoughts coming from so that we can look at it and be like, Oh, that statement's not really true. What is true is that I'm, I'm trying this avenue right now, and I'm giving it my best shot. And if this doesn't work, I'm willing to try another avenue. That sounds better, right?

Sara:

And you sound so much more like an agent, making choices, being thoughtful about, 'these are my options and this is the path that I can pursue,' instead of being like this passive recipient of your fate, right?

Natasha:

That's right. That's right. And putting some control into that because there is obviously the sense of a loss of control. Right? When you have when you have a plan and that plan is not happening for you.

Sara:

K, I love, I so appreciate our conversation. I'm going to wrap it up with two quick questions here. The first one is, if you had to describe in one word, your feelings or beliefs about the fertility journey, what one word would you choose?

Natasha:

The fertility journey or mine?

Sara:

However you want to interpret it, and if you need to throw out a few we can, we can work with that.

Natasha:

I wouldn't label it as… you know, it did change. But the beginning when I was just hearing about this and learning what a struggle it was going to be for me, I would have called it suffering.

Sara:

Okay. And I love the thoughts that you've shared to help, again reframe that, to make it feel less like suffering, but also the earlier thoughts you shared about having other people recognize, this feels like intense suffering. I think that's, that's really fitting.

Natasha:

Yeah. And it really was, I was gonna say it really was the, the getting out of that thought process and say, What can I do with this information now that I have it? How can I pull parts of my life to make a change to make this better? I feel very fortunate that I was already kind of in this birth world when I encountered this, because I was able to pull things together and create out of it, which really lifted me out of that suffering place. But not only that, it led me to find other people who were going through it. So I could say I'm suffering and they could say back to me, I'm suffering too. And that's still so much. Just being able to create that in my world was so important.

Sara:

Thank you for sharing your story and your wisdom. How can we connect with you? Follow you personally or Bebo Mia, or whatever you want to throw out there.

Natasha:

Sure, you can visit us at bebomia.com. We also have a blog post on this that comes with like a really large ebook just on how we can best support our clients who are going through infertility or who are now pregnant after infertility. So you can go to bebomia.com/birthwords. And that will be up for anybody who ever wants to see it. And if anybody ever wanted to join any of our programs, we have a BIRTHWORDS code for 15% off anything you'd ever want to join us with and become part of our community.

Sara:

Love it. Thank you so much for your generosity and go head over to their website. Check it out. They have so many resources for birth professionals and really are doing something dynamic and new with the way that they're approaching all of it, so go check it out. It's worth it.

Natasha:

Thank you so much. Thank you for allowing me to be on the podcast.

Sara:

It was so great to have you. Thanks so much, Natasha.

Natasha:

Thank you.

Outro:

Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this week's episode, I interview Kelly Buck, a Dunstan Baby Language Educator and doula. She talks about the Dunstan Baby Language program and how it gives us a window into the first communicative interactions between baby and caregiver. From birth, babies make sounds that are reflex-based. When we understand what these sounds mean, we can respond to and interact with babies more confidently and effectively.

TRANSCRIPT:

Sara: Hi, welcome to the Birth Words podcast. Today, I'm chatting with my friend and fellow doula Kelly Buck. Kelly is also a Dunstan Baby Language educator. And today on the podcast, I'm going to ask her more about the work she does with Dunstan Baby Language. So hi, Kelly, welcome to the podcast.

Kelly: Hi, thank you for having me.

Sara: It's great to have you. I'm going to just ask you a bit about your background with Dunstan Baby Language and the work that you're doing with that. So I'll jump into my first question.

Kelly: Okay, sure!

Sara: Great. So how did you find out about Dunstan Baby Language?

Kelly: So, I learned about the program in 2008 when I had just given birth to my oldest.

Sara: Oh, good.

Kelly: Yes. And I was one of the rare cases of postpartum depression that happens almost immediately. Yeah, we're talking, I was bawling in the recovery room. So and add to that, that my son was actually really colicky. And he had a lot of trouble latching. And I was just kind of like an emotional wreck. So, one day I was kind of I was on the phone with my mom. And she mentioned that she had seen the episode, an episode of Oprah where there was this lady that said she could understand why babies cry and I was like, okay, maybe I will look this up.

Sara: Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah. So that led me to looking up the video on YouTube and learning more about Patricia Dunstan and her programs. So at the time, you could only order the program online for DVDs. And so I did. And I'm telling you, it was a game changer for me. It was amazing. My husband and I both listened to it and we were just like this is… this is working! We tried it with with our son and he seemed to calm down. I still had a little bit of the depression, but I felt like I could at least care for my son, you know, do what he needed. So that I could, I could do that. And so I started like lending out all my DVDs telling my friends who were pregnant or who just had babies and I guess you could kind of say that new learning about Dunstan Baby Language actually kind of sort of paved the way for me to becoming a doula because I love talking about birth and babies and how just how much it did for me, specifically for my postpartum depression. So, so yeah, that's how I got my start. And then I, I went on to become a doula and then later on, I was thinking okay, what can I offer to my clients? What can I do and then I, I went online and lo and behold, you could certify to be an instructor. So I did, and I was like this is this it! And yeah, so I'm about six months into being an instructor and I love it. It's an awesome program.

Sara: So sounds awesome. Kelly and I were chatting before we press record about how I was not as fortunate as Kelly that I didn't find out about Dunstan Baby Language until after one of my clients introduced me to it. And I had three kids that were well beyond the baby language stage. So I'm glad that you found that at a fortuitous moment for you and I'm sure all the friends that you shared it with, were glad, too. And now all your clients that you can share, but with your formal training, that's awesome. So, can you give an overview of just the premise of the program, like the main points that it operates on?

Kelly: Absolutely. So the main points of the program are that infants are automatically born with certain reflexes that they are using to kind of communicate with us. And they've kind of boiled it down to five specific sounds that all newborns make. And again, like I said, they're based on reflexes that are happening in the body. And when you add sound to those you get these Dunstan baby words that can help parents understand what their baby needs. It's really a program all about helping families bond and bond from an early, age.

Sara: That's huge. And it's true for whatever language the baby goes on, is exposed to and goes on to acquire Is that correct?

Kelly: Absolutely. They have done studies with over—their first study was with over 400 mothers and parents and babies and they all found that whatever language they spoke these babies still made the same sounds. And so and also it applies to even autistic children. I can attest with my oldest who's autistic—he still made the sounds even though he has difficulty communicating. But I honestly believe that because I was able to respond to his needs so quickly that it might have helped a little bit with that. I can't say specifically or scientifically, but that's just my opinion, because he is high functioning and is able to speak. So…

Sara: But that makes a big difference like you said before with bonding and with him recognizing that he has needs that he can express and that you can respond to them because you know what they are. That's huge, and I feel like so many young parents with little babies making sound that have no idea what they're saying, just feel this frustration. And it affects the bond that can happen when you can't communicate with your child.

Kelly: Right, right. And I just think about those parents who are like, what happens now after the hospital doors closed, you know? And if I can give them these tools to say, okay, you don't have to feel that sense of kind of dread as what you do now that you can go home and be confident and in your ability to be a good parent.

Sara: That's huge. Cool. So I have another question for you. That's a little long, but… So in one of my classes, we were talking about language acquisition—first language acquisition—and I read an article about how older babies are, "learning how to mean," meaning that they're exploring with language and how they're able to communicate their needs and ideas with others through it. But as I was reading it, I felt like the author wasn't giving really young babies enough credit. He claimed that it was past six months, past nine months, even, that babies realized that they can learn how to mean. But I want to hear your opinion, when do you think that infants begin attempting to meaningfully communicate and what avenues do they use?

Kelly: So, like I said, our philosophy is that infants are, are kind of unconsciously communicating from day one. And again, it starts off on these basic, these very primal reflexes, but they're finding that if parents respond to the sounds that our babies, babies are making, that they… They're finding that if, if are not responded to the sound, usually about after three months, they kind of stopped making the sound. But they found that if parents are responding with the sounds and with these words that babies will kind of learn to associate that, and keep on making these sounds well past three months. It honestly, I believe it. It's my belief that, that it's helping babies communicate earlier. It's helping babies learn how to trust earlier. Because they know that their needs are being met. And so they're, they're calmer. So, yeah, does that does answer your question?

Sara: Totally. And that makes a lot of sense to me because like you said, initially, it's a physiological reflex-based, like not a conscious attempt to communicate. But when you realize that, hey, when I make this sound like I am communicating this message with my parents or other caregivers, then that invites communication earlier. I think that's great. I think that makes a lot ofsense.

Kelly: Yeah. And and it also kind of dispels the belief that that babies are manipulating you. Because young babies actually can't. They don't…

Sara: Right.

Kelly: It's not like they consciously choose at two or three weeks to, you know, be colicky, they don't choose these things. So it's, it's your understanding that changes your whole perspective.

Sara: I think that's a really good point because we kind of thrust our perspective upon a baby like, oh, they're manipulating me. If you sat down with somebody who said that, they probably realize that didn't actually literally mean that they felt that their baby had the ability to like, recognize their desires and then thwart them by doing something different, right? Like toddlers, we know they do that, right? But little tiny babies, right? But if you shift the perspective and say, okay, where is the baby coming from and what cues is the baby responding to and what physiological things are going on? When we shift our perspective instead of putting our perspective upon our babies makes a really big difference.

Kelly: Yeah, exactly.

Sara: You're totally selling me. I love it. My next question I've kind of touched on before so if you don't have anything else to add, that's fine. But how has your work as a Dunstan Baby Language educator influenced your personal experiences, and then the work you do as a doula?

Kelly: Um, it To be honest, I love it so much. So sometimes it's hard to hold back, especially here in Utah, with so many women who are pregnant and then like.. YOU NEED THIS! But I hold back. And oftentimes, they'll be, I'll be in church or something and there'll be a baby crying and I'm like, "I think that baby needs to burp." But, you know, I just I can't just go up and say that to somebody. But there have been times where like, I've had family members who've had babies and, and I've listened to them and I'm like, "I think that baby is kind of gassy" and she's like, "No, she just pooped" or something. I'm like, "well, try this or try doing this…" And sure enough, 30 minutes later, the baby will pass gas again or, you know, if they, they'll be like, the baby will be hungry. And they're like, "Oh, they just ate" and I'm like, "no, they're still hungry." So yeah, they'll latch right on. So, but I, I just I love being able to offer this to women to, again to just be able to build that family bond.

And the other thing that I love about is that we focus a lot on the dad. And we… my husband was actually much better at hearing the sounds in my son that I was and it is kind of forced me to stop and listen to him and trust his instincts and improve my communication with him. I know a lot of times, moms are hesitant to, I guess leave their baby with her husband or something like that because they feel like they have to do everything. But couples who learn this are kind of able to let that go and say, "Okay, my husband knows what to do." And a lot of dads will come in and be like, "I feel so good because I know what to do."

Sara: Awesome.

Kelly: So yeah, I love that family bonding.

Sara: Yeah! And empowering for for both parents. Because it can be disempowering for a mother to feel like I am the sole provider for my baby physically, emotionally… Especially a breastfeeding mom who has literally… her body is producing all of its food and then feeling like its emotional needs can only be met through her, that can be disempowering for her. And it's great that you can flip it and empower for the husband as well for everybody to work together as a team. And even outside of that, you know, if you have other caregivers or grandparents or partner, whoever is helping to care, that's huge.

Kelly: Absolutely. This isn't just for for new parents. It's or anybody who's working with newborns, just to be able to improve their confidence and their skills. So yeah, I tell I tell my clients all the time that if grandma is watching baby then teach them these sounds so that she can respond quicker. But yeah, I love empowering the dad. That was my that's kind of why I do doula work as well. It's fun to see the dads in the birth room and see them transform into fathers. So giving them another tool is just, it's just a great opportunity.

Sara: So that's huge. Okay, you've totally sold me. I'm going to talk with you more and more about this and send my clients to you to take your classes and all of this. I think this is important work that you're doing. And I have two quick questions for you to wrap up. One is if you had to choose just one word to describe your views about birth and the surrounding perinatal period, what word would it be?

Kelly: life-changing? Is that one word?

Sara: Oh yeah, just stick a hyphen in there—totally one word.

Kelly: And no matter how your birth goes it's definitely going to permanently affect you and in whatever way, it's something that always stays with you. You can ask any person who's given birth. If any person has given birth, they may not be able to remember what they ate yesterday, but I guarantee you they can tell you every single detail of their birth and their story.

Sara: Great. Life-changing. I love it. And I feel like that applies, too, to the work you're doing with the Dunstan Baby Language that could be life-changing.

Kelly: Thank you.

Sara: My last question is, how can listeners follow you on social media or your website? How can they connect with you?

Kelly: Absolutely. So my website is shebirthservices.com, and you can follow me on Facebook at SHE Birth Services. And Instagram is the same thing: SHE Birth Services. So I'd love for anybody who wants to come and take a class. You're welcome to.

Sara: Great. Thank you so much Kelly. It was great to have you.

Kelly: Oh, thank you.

Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

This episode takes a look at the history of the use of the word "deliver" in relation to childbirth.

REFERENCES:

Exodus 1:19. Retrieved from https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/1-19.htm

Oxford English Dictionary (2019). Deliver. Retrieved from https://www-oed-com.erl.lib.byu.edu/view/Entry/49470?rskey=blB3K2&result=2#eid

TRANSCRIPT:

Hi, so we are here today to talk about the word deliver. We touched on this a little bit in previous episode, number 18, with Rebecca Dekker. She is the founder of Evidence Based Birth and the author of a book called, "Babies are Not Pizzas: They're Born, Not Delivered. I had a little conversation with her during that episode about the use of that word, how she feels that it's very problematic and puts the birthgiver in a passive position, not an active position, and postions them as a passive recipient of care to be acted upon--delivered from some… from the burden of a baby, rather than being a life-giving agent giving birth to a child.

So I had a little conversation on my Facebook group, Birth Words Community. If you are not part of it, go over to Facebook, type in Birth Words Community, and request to join us there. We'd love to have you. We talk about the power of words in relation to pregnancy, birth and the postpartum period. So I had a little conversation in that group about the word deliver. And I said in this episode with Rebecca Dekker, it was brought up, she feels strongly about it. She talked about how she has family, I believe a brother-in-law, who doesn't see that it's problematic because he doesn't feel that it's used very often as the doctor saying, "I'm going to deliver your baby," but rather the mother saying, "I'm going to deliver my baby." Rebecca is troubled by the history again, that puts the birth giver in a passive position.

So I wanted to tap into some other people and see how they felt about the word. And I got a variety of responses. Some said, "you know, I've never really thought about it and it doesn't really bother me. That's just kind of what we say." And others were really passionate about, "I really don't like that word. Why did we start using it?" And others took a kind of a middle ground position saying, "I really don't like it if we say that a care provider delivers the baby or especially delivers the mother. But if we're saying it in terms of the mother is delivering her baby, the birthgiver is delivering the baby. That seems like an empowering use of the word."

So that conversation got me wondering about the history of the word deliver in childbirth. So I was thinking back, where do I know…what are some old texts that I'm familiar with that use the word deliver for childbirth? And the Old Testament came to mind. I know that that word is used in relation to childbirth. So I was in interested to look and see how it's used and what the history of that is. So the first instance, I think, in the Old Testament is referring to the Jewish people who are in bondage. And there's a decree from the pharaoh that all the babies of the Jewish people are to be killed. The midwives tell the pharaoh that, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women, they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive."

And you heard in that translation, I said, "give birth." That's the New International Version, which uses the words "give birth". But in the King James Version, which is a more classical version of the Bible, written in the early 1600s… In that version, it says, "The midwife said unto Pharaoh, because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women, for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in and to them." And that word delivered. It was interesting to me that that's different in these different translations as the midwives are saying, "These women give birth before we get there. So we can't do anything about following the decree to kill the sons of the Hebrew women." The context of that story aside, which is an awesome story about midwives standing up for what's right…But let's set that aside and focus on the use of the word delivery here, delivered, because it's very interesting to me that in the 1600s, when the Bible was translated into the King James Version, the word delivery was used there. In the New International Version, though, says, give birth, not delivery. So I looked at the history of the Hebrew, the language, that of antiquity, that the Bible was originally written in. And as far as I've been able to tell, anywhere in the Old Testament, the Hebrew the verbs used to describe giving birth are specific to giving birth, bringing forth children. The word delivery also comes up frequently in the Old Testament, but it seems to have been introduced in later translations such as the King James Version. So in the Hebrew text the word used for deliver—as in delivering from evil, delivering from enemies, meaning to save somebody, is a different word. In the Hebrew text, a different word entirely was used than the word used to refer to the act of giving birth. And somewhere along the line, the two got commingled so that the word deliver was used for both.

So let's see what Oxford English Dictionary has to say. The Oxford English Dictionary goes through the history of a word and its usage in actual context. So the first thing that I came across in the Oxford English Dictionary was that the word deliver means "to free, rid, divest or clear of or from." And it did gives an example from 1632, to deliver, "deliver of her pain in childbirth." Interesting. 1632 and we're talking about delivering from pain in childbirth. Interesting, okay. We've talked about pain, you can listen back to that episode for more on that, but here's the use of the word deliver in relation to childbirth.

Then I scrolled down some more and came across this definition of the word deliver: "to disburden a woman (of the fetus), to bring to childbirth. In passive, to bring to give birth to a child or offspring. Rarely said of beasts." And then, "the active use of the word is late and chiefly in obstetrical use."

Okay, that whole definition is just packed with interesting things. To start with, "to disburden of the fetus, to bring to childbirth." So that is very much somebody else acting on the woman and "disburdening" her of the fetus.

"In passive, to give birth to a child or offspring." So you can passively be delivered. Prolematic.

"Rarely said of beasts." That gives me pause, like we don't really use that word. And historically, Oxford English Dictionary is looking back at the historical use of the term. It is rarely used when talking about animals giving birth, as if we have more confidence in their ability to do it on their own as active agents. Interesting.

And then, "the active use of the word is late and chiefly and obstetrical use." And that's the use that we talked about a little bit before. If somebody's saying, "I delivered my baby, that active use of the word, chiefly in obstetrical use. And I think that's an instance of somebody trying to reclaim the word that historically positioned birthgivers in a very passive position. Now these people, these women, are saying, and those supporting them are saying, "Oh, this is an active job that the woman is doing. Let's put her in this active role as she is delivering her child but still using the same word trying to reclaim it." Okay, interesting.

So, let's look at the history. The first instance that Oxford English Dictionary cites is in 1325: "Mary should be delivered of her child." Again, dis burdened of her fetus In 1400… "We…This is kind of in like Middle English so it's a little tricky. But the word delivered again is used for "women are delivered."

1480: "Again the time come that she should be delivered of her child."

We go into the 1500s and it says, "to have my wife with child safely delivered."

Shakespeare in "A Winter's Tale" in 1616: "She is something before her time delivered."

1676: "The third time they sent and begged that I would deliver her" There's the doctor doing the delivery.

And 1754 Treatise on Midwifery says, "a better method of delivering in laborious and preternatural cases…" That goes on, but this word was used.

Again, the first instance we saw was 1325. Now we're in the 1750s. And it continues to give examples through the 1800s, both in medical texts and lay texts where the word delivered is used to mean "disburdening the woman of her baby." I need to dig more into the history. And if you're a history buff, and you've got some sort of an inkling of why in the 1300s, going into the 1400s, throughout the 1600s, and all the way into the 1800s, this became more prevalent that we talked about being delivered of a child, whereas it wasn't before, send me a message. I want to hear your thoughts, hear about what you're thinking about this. Because I think a common perspective is that people say, "Oh, well when birth moved to the hospital, then people started putting power in the hands of doctors who were delivering babies rather than women who are giving birth to them." But really, the decline of home birth happened more over the 20th century, in around 1900 is when we started seeing that shift towards hospital births. And this clearly predates that.

So I need to do some more research. But that's what I've done so far on the history of the term deliver, delivered. I think it's interesting that in some circles people are trying to re-appropriate the term and say, "That has been used to put us in a passive position, we're going to reclaim it and talk about delivering our babies." And that can be really effective for some people. And it's been done for various terms throughout history, like the term Yankee referring to Americans. The British used it as a derogatory term and it's been reclaimed. And there are many other examples of such terms. And that can be a really effective thing.

But for some people, the only effective thing is to completely divorce themselves from the history of the term that has been used to put them in a disempowered position. And they want to use a different term. And I think that's also returning to the early use, as we talked about in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament and the story of the Hebrew women giving birth to their babies before the midwives could get there. That was the historical use. This word was not used for the word for delivering, being disburdened or saved was not used in the same context as giving birth. So for some, it is more powerful to return to that original intent and purpose and talk of giving birth, bringing life creating life, and completely separating ourselves from the use of the term delivery.

So I hope that was an interesting little travel through times, courtesy of the Oxford English Dictionary as we looked a little bit about the history of the word, deliver, delivery in childbirth and why it has been problematic and what is being done about it now. I'm sure that this topic will continue to come up in subsequent episodes. I'm also preparing an episode where we'll talk about, in other languages, how do we say to give birth? And how does it affect the culture of birth in those places. So again, if you know of, if you have experience, giving birth or assisting or supporting somebody with birth, who primarily spoke a different language, I'd love to hear your thoughts, your perspective, your experience, about the different uses of the word. That's all for our episode today.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this episode, I tackle the topic of pain during labor and childbirth.

REFERENCES:

Chooi C. S. L., Nerlekar R., Raju R., Cyna A. M. (2011). The effects of positive or negative words when assessing postoperative pain. Anaesthesia and Intensive Care 39(1), 101-106.

Dick-Read, G. (1984). Childbirth without fear. New York, NY: HarperCollins Publishers.

Mongan, M. (1992). HypnoBirthing: The Mongan method. Deerfield Beach, Florida: Heath Communications.

TRANSCRIPT:

Before we get started today, I just wanted to give a shout out to the social media group Birth Words Community. If you are not a part of it yet, head over to Facebook and type in birth towards community and request to join the group. And come join us as we have conversations about the importance of the way that we speak about pregnancy and birth and the postpartum period. So head over to facebook and join us in the birth words community group.

Hello, welcome to today's episode. Okay, so… many people think birth and think pain. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm pregnant but I can't stand the thought of the pain of giving birth. Even my husband, after I'd become a doula and had a very empowering birth experience. I said, "I needed help thinking of an affirmation. Do you have one?" And he said, "pain is babies leaving the body," which was humorous and funny and whatever. But still it associates pain and childbirth as almost intertwined and inseparable, and as the defining characteristic of childbirth. I don't think this is the way that it needs to be. Let's get talking about what is going on here.

So I'm going to use as the basis for our conversation, an article written by Chooi, Nerlekar, and Cyna. You can see the show notes for the citation, but it's called, "The Effects of Positive or Negative Words When Assessing Post-Operative Pain." Now, this is an interesting article with interesting implications. It's a different context, and it can't be totally applied to our situation, but… food for thought.

So this article was written, aimed at an audience of anesthesiologists, and it was raises some important questions about how birthgivers frame their own experience and how they're cared for. And in this article, they conducted a study to determine the effect of language when checking in with post-cesarean patients. So the assessors came into the room of the recovering patients the first day after their cesarean. To half of the patients, the assessors said, "Do you have any pain at the moment?" And they asked that to 116 patients, and 63 of them--54%--responded that they did. To the other group, they used more positive language, asking, "How are you feeling? Are you comfortable at the moment?" Again, they're still checking in on their physical well-being, but not introducing the word pain into the argument. So in this group, only 28 of the 116 women—which was 24%--reported that they were in pain. And they were recovering from a major surgery, so… interesting.

So for the most part, this study was well conducted. It did have some limitations that the authors acknowledged. Only the patients, not the assessors, were blinded. And there's a difficult-to-define spectrum of pain and comfort, and that affects the results. And I'm not claiming that this was a perfect study. But again, like I said, food for thought in the care of laboring women.

So, imagine a similar phenomenon that might happen to someone who's giving birth. If asked how she's feeling or if she's comfortable. The birthgiver and her support and care providers can work with her to find optimal comfort and to find a rhythm with the work that her body's doing. If she's confronted with the question, "Are you in pain?" Or, if she's been anticipating pain since the day she first learned that the stork isn't the source of all babies… Then what's she going to experience? She's gonna likely fall into what we call the fear-tension-pain cycle. And this was really purported by Grantly Dick-Read, an influential British obstetrician and the author of Childbirth Without Fear. He was a proponent of natural, painless birth during the 1930s. And he hypothesized that pain in childbirth comes because of fear, which causes physical tension, which leads to pain. And he inspired the Hypnobirthing founder, Marie Mongan, and others.

So I have not experienced a painless birth. I have talked with some who have. And I do feel that what I identified as pain during labor had a different function than pain I've experienced at other times, and that the pain I experienced in during labor did not color my experience and it doesn't really register in my memory of it.

So back to this article about the post-operative pain assessing. The authors point out that during pregnancy in the postpartum period, women are increasingly susceptible to the power of suggestion, which is acutely true during labor, so we need to carefully consider how our language frames the birth experience. And I'm saying this for those supporting birth givers. I'm saying this if you are currently pregnant, how are you framing the experience that you're going to have for yourself? And is pain playing too big of a role? How can we work with that, figure out where that's coming from, and reframe it in a way that's going to help us have a more healthy and empowered birthing experience?

So I certainly do not want to discredit women who have experienced pain during childbirth. Like I said, I am one of them. And although I believe that there are ways to manage pain, there are ways to increase comfort in labor, I feel that it would also be beneficial to reframe our perception of pain in labor.

I do believe that there are ways to manage pain and increase comfort in labor. Hire a doula if you don't have one, and she will let you know all the tricks: counter pressure, different positions... I tell you what, lying in a hospital bed is pretty much the way, especially if you're on your back… best way to maximize pain during labor! But moving around, making noises, listening to music that helps you calm and release that tension, being with loved ones who make you feel safe, being told that you're doing such a beautiful job working with your body, getting some nice hip squeezes and lower back rubs, other forms of counter pressure and love and support… that will make a difference in your level of comfort during labor.

Also, considering reframing our perception of pain and labor is important. And this is something that really needs to be done prenatally because it involves some work that can't be done on the same day while you're in labor. So as the author of the study, the authors of the study point out pain is defined as an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage. Or Google says, "physical suffering or discomfort caused by illness or injury." Again, some of that could happen during birth, especially in certain situations, but a lot of that is just not relevant. This is an illness. Is this an injury? Is this an indication that something is wrong in my body? If I break my leg, I get stung by a bee, my body sends pain signals to my brain saying, hey, something is wrong, get this checked out. Sometimes, that is the meaning of pain in labor. If baby's mouth position or if you're not in the best position, and it's saying, Hey, let's try to get in a different place, try something different, to help this be more comfortable for everybody involved.

Sometimes though, what we call pain in labor is the intensity of a contraction. And it's often a sign that everything is right, that the body is doing just what it needs to do in order to birth this baby. So for this reason, hypnobirthers have chosen to linguistically reframe many of the sensations of labor. They call contractions waves or surges, which again works for some and not for others. These words are inspired by images of nature running its right in proper course and they can help you in labor realize that your body to is doing what it naturally should. Many hypnobirthers speak of intense pressure rather than pain as that's how they experience the sensation of the uterus working to open and then the cervix. My friend Joanie, who talked to us in Episode 6 (check it out if you haven't yet!) used pressure to discuss The sensations that she felt of labor. And yes, it was intense pressure. But she felt that that was more fitting than using the word pain to describe it.

Here's my theory, our minds work with language. That's kind of how we make sense of the world by putting it into words, especially if you're linguistically-minded. And so we look for a term to make sense of our experience, and we choose one from common experience. But did you hear that? We choose one from common experience. Birth is anything but common experience! So I argue that this term, which again, may feel like the right term to use for some people, but it's a term adopted from common experience, to describe this very uncommon experience, and I think that there's a bit of a misfit there.

Many women feel that hypnobirthing isn't for them or this approach doesn't work for them and they say, "I feel pain during labor," and again, I felt pain during the labor. And when you say you're in pain, those supporting you should believe you and work to help manage it. But if you are laboring along, and you maybe said uncomfortable, or "Oh, this is intense," you haven't said anything of pain, then let's not introduce the word into the vocabulary of the birthing experience. Let's talk about optimizing comfort. Let's compliment you for beautifully handing handling the intensity of the experience and let's remember your body knows what to do and you are doing just what you need to be doing.

So, to close, whether or not pain is part of your birth giving experience, it does not need to be the defining characteristic.

Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www dot birth words. com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this episode, I interview Margaret Quinlan and hear her perspective about the social phenomenon surrounding the topic of infertility.

Margaret M. Quinlan is an associate professor in the department of communication studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. She explores how communication creates, resists and transforms knowledges about bodies. She critiques power structures in order to empower individuals who are marginalized inside and outside of healthcare systems. She authored approximately 40 journal articles, 17 book chapters and co-produced documentaries in a regional Emmy award-winning series. She co-authored "You're Doing It Wrong! Mothering, Media, and Medical Expertise (Rutgers) with Bethany Johnson."

TRANSCRIPT:

Sara

Welcome to the Birth Words podcast, episode number 22.

Introduction:

You're listening to the Birth Words podcast. Utah based birth doula and Applied Linguistics scholar Sara Pixton digs into the language of pregnancy and birth to help expectant women claim their power as life giving agents, engaged in a praiseworthy work. This podcast aims to promote positive birth paradigms, and is not intended as medical advice.

Sara

Before we jump into today's episode, I just wanted to pause for a minute and encourage you to get out your Instagram, go to Facebook, find Birth Words, give me a follow. You can stay up to date and share it with anybody that you know who may be interested in the language that we use to make birth better. Give it a share, give it a follow, and then we'll see you online!

Sara

Margaret Quinlan is an associate professor in the Department of Communication Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. she explores how communication creates, resist and transforms knowledge about bodies to critique power structures in order to empower individuals who are marginalized inside and outside of healthcare. She authored approximately 40 journal articles, 17 book chapters, and co-produced documentaries in a regional, Emmy Award winning series. She co-authored You're Doing it Wrong! Mothering, Media, and Medical Expertise with Bethany Johnson. So, I'm just thrilled to be able to talk with Maggie today about the work that she's done. And we're going to focus specifically, today, on a chapter that she wrote in that book, You're Doing it Wrong, about infertility as an extension of the episode. I previously aired Episode Seven about infertility. So Maggie, welcome to the podcast!

Maggie

Thank you so much, Sara. It really is an honor. And I'm really looking forward to talking to you about, not just my research, but my research with Professor Bethany Johnson. And we've been researching women's health and the history of infertility and other health related women's health related issues. So I'm looking forward to digging into a little bit of that today.

Sara

Excellent. Will you start by giving us just a brief overview of your book, You're Doing it Wrong?

Maggie

Sure, so Bethany and I were interested in the ways in which new mothers face (and we see mothers as a pretty broad term) many of the same health issues, confronted by women for generations, and Stephanie is a historian and I am in Communication Studies. And so we were interested in how the number of lay experts and technical experts is, you know, potentially growing, especially on social media. So, what we did was we looked at what we call the life cycle of early motherhood, which is preconception through toddlerhood. And we looked at different crises that individuals could potentially face during during those times such as fertility and conception, challenges in pregnancy behavior and outcomes, premature birth, infant loss, having a child in the NICU, developmental delays, you know, other postpartum health issues. So, what we were interested in is how during these crisis moments, individuals tend to receive a lot of advice from experts, such as, like, doctors. As well as from other individuals, friends, family members, strangers and individuals. Add on social media. So, we looked at the ways in which, throughout history, what those messages have looked like and then what do they look like today on social media?

Sara

Excellent. Thanks for that overview. I think that's a really important work that you're doing, and any listeners who have gone through that life cycle of early motherhood, like you're talking about, I'm sure can relate to some advice, whether solicited or unsolicited, that they received, how it has impacted their journey. So I think you're doing really important work. I'm excited to talk more with you about it.

Maggie

Thank you.

Sara

Yeah! So, like I mentioned, and you wrote this entire book, I believe, is it nine chapters?

Maggie

Yeah!

Sara

So, you dive into a variety of topics in this life cycle of early motherhood. But, because I keep my episode short, and because we could go on for hours and hours, we're just going to focus today on a really little piece of it, which is chapter two, when you talk about infertility. So, in chapter two, which you titled: "A State of Mind? Fertility Treatment(s) and Expertise," you state that the World Health Organization considers both male and female infertility as a disease. And then others, like Marion Sims, in the 1850's saw women's bodies as machines that need to be fixed by an expert mechanic. Even today, treatments are often "overly fixated on the problems of the body," and the experts who can, "fix them." How does this perspective and the linguistic framing that accompany it affect wouldbe expectant couples and their experience through the journey of infertility, and then if they're able to become pregnant, how does it affect them throughout pregnancy and postpartum?

Maggie

Well, while you were asking the question, the first thing that came to mind was the story of Dr. Dickinson, who practiced in the early 1900s. And we found in his medical journals and in his papers about how he used, he was a doctor who did fertility treatments, and how he used his sperm and other men's sperm to artificially inseminate women. And he did not often tell the women, and the women did not tell their male partners that they were part of the problem. And so, this was a really fascinating story to uncover, because, you know, just this sort of this fear the protection that many individuals did to protect men from the emotional and relational turmoil of infertility. That there, you know, it was believed that men would not come back from disaster, learning about their failed masculinity, or they wouldn't bond with the child.

We even saw some early 20th century public divorce cases where the woman ended up getting the custody of the child for the first time because they thought about that it was not the father sperm that that was being used. And so, that example is really interesting because, in some of our research with women undergoing infertility, I think of a woman named Vivian, and she did not tell her husband that he has low sperm count, because she, you know, wanted to protect him and didn't want him to have to deal with it. Where, you know, we still see today that many women going through infertility, that they're the bodies that undergo a lot of the treatment, and they're expected to take on the emotional labor from the health crisis. And that they're expected to keep the emotional stability of, of the relationship.

And so, in terms of, you know, what we saw throughout history and what we what we see today that, when thinking about how this could impact possibly becoming pregnant or the birth experience or the postpartum period, that if couples are already not dealing with some of the emotional issues, are not in a really stable, strong point in the relationship, when undergoing some of these are having intimacy issues, that those are going to be issues that they follow through them through pregnancy, birth, and the postpartum period. And so, you know, we still see that today, right? That you're not considered whole, if you're not a mother, your identity is supposed to be, you know, you're supposed to naturally be a mother and you're to blame, or female failure, or the failure of the woman if infertility occurs. And so, you know, we still see a lot of women going through infertility dealing with depression, social life force, isolation, depression, or relationship issues, sexual dysfunction, right? Going through all this. So, you're able, then, to become pregnant, some of those issues, for sure, would follow through, right?

Sara

Yeah. Wow, that is heavy. And so important that you're shedding light on it so that we work to change some of that. That is really heavy and difficult for those women who are feeling the weight and the blame, it should be a shared journey to shoulder with somebody else. All right, thank you.

I'm gonna move on to the next one. A question which, again, deals with infertility and you wrote about in chapter two. So, you wrote that the social and emotional challenges of those facing infertility are very similar areas, eerily similar you can say, to others in their shoes over 100 years ago, although there's a much higher likelihood that they'll be able to become pregnant and birth a healthy baby. So, why does the social and emotional journey remain so challenging in such similar ways, when so much has changed?

Maggie

Yeah, it's interesting. I wonder, you know, after going through the historical aspects of this, I am curious about how much has really changed, that we still believe the biological mandate and we assume that there was, you know, romantic love that produced this child, which is a romantic, you know, 19th century idea. That there's still the same messages that, if that doesn't happen, or if you're not able to have a "healthy," baby, that somehow you failed, that you're shamed on that, you know, we see the link that women do when going through infertility treatment. That in, not in this chapter, but in some of our other research about Instagram and infertility, we see women who have Instagram accounts that are just for their infertility journey and can't be usually connected to their name. And they go there to, you know, create community and to protect their identity. They're not telling others in their lives that they're struggling with this and are connecting and trying to get lay medical expertise through these through these sites. And so, what we would think has shifted a lot in many ways, haven't. So, I think about, just even the shame and the stereotypes about African American women who are infertile, that they are sort of a double failure because the idea that African American women are, women of color are, hyper fertile. And then, they're not that sort of a double failure, and viewed with a lot of racial stereotypes. And so, we have groups like fertility for colored girls and another group called Broken Brown Egg, that tries to, you know, bring awareness to the silence that happens for individuals who go through infertility. And so, in my opinion, even though the likelihood that an individual will get pregnant has really increased, that I would like to personally have had seen more of a shift in, in how some of the challenges that individuals going through infertility face.

Sara

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that that's a phenomenon that is not unique to this realm that cultural frameworks sometimes just change very, very slowly. So even if there's technological improvements that are changing rapidly, on top of that, underneath, you've got a cultural framework that is really takes a lot of work to progress and evolve. Is that what you found?

Maggie

Absolutely.

Sara

All right. Well, I guess we're doing the heavy lifting work of changing that underlying cultural framework.

Maggie

Yeah!

Sara

Right.

Maggie

And more to build on.

Sara

What's that?

Maggie

I said, a lot more to be done

Sara

For sure. Yeah. And more numbers are needed and a lot more awareness. And so, you kind of started to touch on the role of social media. So, my next question brings that in: what role does the discourse of social media play in shaping understandings of fertility? And you've talked a bit about the supposedly lay versus technical dichotomy, but blurred on social media, and how does that affect would be parents?

Maggie

Well, one thing, you know, we talked a lot about, my research partner and I, is that if somebody on social media shows that they're confident, that somehow is confused with being an expert in something, so if you're somebody who sells Shakeology, right, that you're an expert in this and that is, sort of, your idea of something that could, that could cure infertility or could could help get your body in the right, not superfoods right to be able to, to prepare for a baby. And so it's interesting in, you know, Facebook groups that I belong to when different social media aspects, you see a lot of people posting, you know, I could post something and get a response from lactation consultant, I could get a response from a pediatrician, I could get a response from somebody who you know, sell, you know, some sort of organic product or something, CBD oil, right? And so, you know, we see a lot of people posting and it's been fascinating to watch how even individuals are able to speak back to some of the discourse and in these spaces, right, we saw a natural medicine practitioner who was posting on Instagram, about how, you need to prepare your garden for having, you know, for having a child, and I saw women speaking back to this person saying, you know, I'm vegan, I've done acupuncture, I exercise, I look very healthy, but I have, you know, terrible egg quality and that has nothing to do with what you're saying. And so, I think it's an interesting space where individuals can speak out, they can have their voice recognized, they can talk about how some of the language used to talk about fertility or women's bodies is inaccurate. And I think, sometimes these are safe spaces where women can do this, but that they wouldn't feel safe, maybe doing it in or disagreeing in their doctor's office. And so, you know, we've seen ways in which women can share care packages with each other for when they connect with people going through the same treatment cycle. And sending care packages or medicine to each other, or, you know, the ways in which some of these natural practices even have really have sort of a medical academy to them, and so I see it, I tend to see social media as, having a lot of dark qualities, a lot of negative social support, but I have definitely myself benefited from some of these communities in ways that, you know, I've been able to connect with people going through some of the same struggles that I have, or I've been able to donate my breast milk to a woman having trouble, or her babies or something.

So, you know, it's like, I do see a lot of potential of these moments and social media to to connect people, but I'm also very cautious of how, sometimes you'll see a lot of fertility e-courses and we talk about them in our, in our book, these e-courses are sort of painful. Yeah, a lot of them pedal the idea of, you know, get just getting your mind right or you know, just relaxing, and they use a lot of 19th century language. Which, if that doesn't work for you, it, you know, places a lot of blame or puts a pile of shame on you, because you weren't in the right mindset to do that. And, you know, you'll see a lot of people in that desperate state, you know, most likely signing up for these because they can't afford a $30,000 treatment and an $800 course that would allow them to get in the right mindset to "get pregnant." You know, the ways in which that, you know, plays on the medical academy and the reason that, you know, we need to be aware of the practices happening and to help people understand that, you know, just getting in the right mindset or going on a vacation or drinking a glass of wine, for a lot of people, is not going to get them pregnant, and then you see a lot of that same message in social media today.

Sara

Yeah. How do you feel like that interplays, with the messages they may be receiving on social media with the face to face interactions these people struggling with infertility might be having with their doctors or with close friends and family?

Maggie

I think that's a great question that I think a lot of women do internalize these messages, right? That there's this great post that we have Instagram posts that we got permission to use. And it shows this woman who has all of her infertility meds, you know, on a desk or something that she has, you know, different alternatives, such as super foods or coconut oil and all of those also embedded in the image is, you know, a candle to help her relax and then she has a card that says, you know, reminding her to relax. And so, I think you get that these messages are so internalized in people's experience and, you know, I think doctors need to know that individuals are doing acupuncture and they are doing ultra alternative medicine, as well as, that's the medicine or the protocol that's been prescribed to them through infertility. And so, that this is just a part of our culture and you know, we need to be, we need to be talking about it, that people are going to do alternative and biomedical approaches to infertility.

Sara

Thank you. And thank you for doing the work to get people talking about it, get people aware of the complexity, the struggles and the layers and things that are heard and read and how this all kind of jumbled together to make a rather confusing experience for people going through infertility.

Maggie

I have, just the cost of it all makes sense, why individuals are, you know, are doing everything possible to possibly have a baby and the toll that's taking on them financially, emotionally, relationally, etc.

Sara

Yeah, it's expensive in more ways than just financially, takes a toll on many aspects of our being. All right. Well, I feel like we've just kind of scraped the surface of a very complex topic, but I invite all of our listeners to look into, You're Doing it Wrong! Can you remind me the subtitle Maggie?

Maggie

Yes, You're Doing it Wrong! Mothering, Media, and Medical Expertise.

Sara

Thank you. And thank you for talking with us today about where those messages are coming from, because no woman wants to be told she's doing it wrong. And so, thank you for your work to help us dig through where those messages are coming from and realize that there are, just, many approaches and many layers of this challenging life situation that comes to so many.

Maggie

I think it's comforting, you know, probably to your listeners to realize that you're not the only one going through these messages, that women throughout history have had experiences. And so for me unpacking the historical arc was really helpful in saying, "Okay, I'm not alone, that women throughout history have been getting this message." And, you know, what, what can I do about it? Or how can I work through some of these messages to help me through work through the crisis that I'm experiencing at this moment.

Sara

Thank you. Thank you for your work, and thank you for talking with me today. It's been a pleasure.

Maggie

Thank you, Sara! It was a lot of fun.

Sara

Thank you for joining me on today's episode. As we wrap up, I just want to extend an invitation if you are liking what you hear on the podcast, if you feel like you've learned something, or it's given you a new perspective, that's been helpful if it's given you power or confidence, or helps you reflect on the language that you use, please leave a review. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'd love to hear what's helpful and what's working for you. And please share with your friends, colleagues and neighbors so that we can spread the influence of Birth Words.

Outro:

Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit www.birthwords.com.

In this episode, I collaborate with Hillary Melchiors from the Birth Geeks podcast, as we discuss three guiding principles for positive language during pregnancy and birth.

Transcript:

Hillary

Hi, Sara!

Sara

Hi Hillary! How are you? I'm just fabulous. I'm so excited to be talking to you.

Hillary

Ditto, I'm a big fan. I totally fangirled when I met you, by the way. Do you remember that?

Sara

Oh, I totally remember. It made my evening. I was so nervous. And then I was like, people know me and appreciate me! It was very awesome. I really appreciate it.

Hillary

Oh, anytime.

Sara

Okay, good. Let's set up another meeting time so you can fangirl again. Okay, so yeah, this is Hillary Melchiors, right?

Hillary

Yeah!

Sara

I actually just listened to your podcast so that I would say it right. But just the little intro part, like how does she say it? Okay, and Hillary is a podcast host too, over at the Birth Geeks. I'm going to see if I can remember your slogan... I know it's something about...oh: "Upping the--" but up is not the verb you use-- "Something, the professional something, getting the conversation, upgrading the conversation and something your professional mox--"

Hillary

--helping you renew your professional moxy

Sara

There we go, ok! "Upgrading the conversation, helping you renew your professional moxy."

Hillary

Do you know, one of my daughters, actually, we had our kids record the tagline. And she kept saying "PROfessional" and we were laughing so hard. It's really cute. And this is Sara Pixton. Sara is a doula in Utah, but she's also a podcast host of Birth Words. So she's also a linguist, which I love, as a language nerd myself.

Sara

One of my very favorite things that happened on social media was on Instagram a couple of weeks ago, somebody tagged me and was like, "There is literally a podcast for everything. If you're a word nerd and a birth geek, I just found your thing!" And I was like, I'm so glad I fill that niche for you!

Hillary

Right? And now we are here.

Sara

Yes, the word nerds, the birthy, wordy, nerdy geeks. That was a really, really good introduction.

Hillary

Yes.

Sara

I just have to comment one other thing, that your pin from the EBB conference, that "I'm a Birth Geek" pin that was like in the swag bags or whatever, my daughter found it the other day and was like, "What does a birth geek mean?" And I was like, "It just means you just know and love every single thing about it." And she was like, "Great, can I wear the pin?" And then she had this kind of like identity crisis throughout the rest of the next few hours that she was wearing it where she was trying to defend her right to wear the pin, but like not totally sure that she wanted to commit to everything that it represented. She was like, "I'm a birth geek, because that means I love everything...well, I don't know if I love everything about birth, but like, I really like the pin."

Hillary

Yeah, so we're recording this on Halloween it's going to be a little bit before we publish, but I wanted to tell you that my Birth Geek friends always have the best costumes. So one of my Birth Geek friends in Texas, she actually is dressed up as the IUD today.

Sara

Oh, wow! Can you put a picture of that in the show notes?

Hillary

I should. Well, I have to ask her...

Sara

If it's with consent.

Hillary

I mean she's, she's technically, like, the reproductive system, because her hands have the ovaries on them, but very much the middle of her sweatshirt is a big IUD. Fantastic.

Sara

Alright.

Hillary

So hi! So today we're going to be talking about... what are we talking about Sara?

Sara

We're talking about your top three tools to improve communication during pregnancy, birth and the postpartum period. Yeah.

Hillary

Well, and as a doula, I really do try to get my my clients to communicate with their care providers more effectively. I think that's really important. Especially,because you have such a limited amount of time with them before the big day. So, you have to really be careful.

Sara

Yeah. And you're probably one of many, many clients that they have, right. I mean, depending on circumstance, but especially if you're at a ob clinic, right? Right. Um, so yeah, knowing how to have that effective communication, really important.

Hillary

Absolutely. Well, and also, you know, as a doula, making sure that I'm communicating well with my clients and in a way that they want me to, I think that that's also good.

Sara

Yeah. And then I think from your clients perspective, obviously, they're communicating with you, they're communicating with their care provider provider, they're communicating with nurses in the hospital, they're communicating with friends and family members who have maybe just different opinions, or thoughts, or stories about pregnancy and birth that might be thrown at them at any moment, with or without warning.

Hillary

That sounds like you have personal experience there.

Sara

I have just, you know, like, maybe not even, I mean, some personal experience, certainly, but also just experience of listening to others stories, and experiences. So, I think that the things the tips that we're going to touch on will help you navigate all of those situations, because I think that the way that we talk and interact with other people makes a big difference in our experiences.

Hillary

Absolutely.

Sara

We're going to first talk about being intentional.

Hillary

What does that mean to you, Sara? To be intentional, with their language?

Sara

That's a really good question. Um, to me, it means a few things. One, is being aware, like we've been talking about, of the effect of the words that you produce, and also the discourse that you've been bathed in throughout your life, whichever ones they are. Just being--and now I'm kind of branching over into reflective, you can't really separate all of them, but we're trying--So intentional, just being aware that the way that I speak, and the words that I choose to incorporate in my belief system, and my feelings, and my experiences, make a big difference. So, I'm going to make sure that the ones that I'm using are positive and confidence building, right?

Hillary

Absolutely. Well, and as a doula, I feel like I'm combating a lot of the messages that my clients are getting from elsewhere. And so, when I'm more intentional about my language with clients, I think that that's very helpful for them. At least I, maybe I'm fooling myself that I'm not.

Sara

I don't think so at all. I'm totally going to jump on board with that and say, yeah, because I think sometimes we're not intentional, but we're just, like, using the lingo that is used without pausing to consider, like in my Birth Words Community Facebook group yesterday, we just had this big discussion about the word deliver or delivery, which some people have strong feelings about, some people not as much. Some people feel like "I don't mind it if the mom is saying 'I delivered my baby,' but really mind it if the doctors are saying 'I'm going to deliver you, or deliver your baby,'" right? So we just had this big conversation about it, and one thing that just was brought to light is that some really, often not intentional, or, again, reflective is the next thing we're going to talk about, but we just choose words because, well, that's the one that was in What to Expect When You're Expecting or whatever. And so, I figured that's the word that we use.

Hillary

Right. Well, I think also being intentional about even something really minor, like pronouns, for example. You know, making sure that you're intentionally using inclusive language. That's very important to me. It's not for everybody, and that's okay. I don't know if it's okay. But it's a thing. And I think that that's important as well.

Sara

Yeah, and, in addition, like, okay, we talked about pronouns, and nouns, and this can be from a gender neutral perspective, or just from a perspective of being empowering, which we'll talk about as our third prong. Now I've revealed all of them, there's no more dramatic tension except that Hillary's going to apparently surprise me with something down the road. So, don't tune out now, just because I've spilled all three beans. But yeah, I've been talking about just the words like client versus patient. What am I saying when I'm calling somebody a patient? What am I implying about their position and their abilities to make decisions and to, you know, just be an empowered participant?

Hillary

Yes, you're making my medical anthropologist heart very happy right now.

Sara

Oh, good! Tell me why.

Hillary

Well, that, that distinction, actually, between client and patient, I think, it's a powerful one, because of power distinctions. Right? Because a midwife, they intentionally say client most of the time, at least the ones I work with, and that's intentional because they work with people, right? They don't work on people, working on people. It's a little different. It's just a different perspective.

Sara

Oh, I was just getting excited about like we've talked about pronouns, nouns. Now we're talking about prepositions. Like it's all so important! We're working with people not on them. I love that distinction. And, yeah, I love it. Okay. And my other, back to nouns, my preferred noun is birthgiver because it's empowering and inclusive.

Hillary

No, it's great. I think that's fantastic. I think it's important.

Sara

Oh, I wanted before we move on from intentional, I also wanted to talk, just from the birthgiver's side of things, being intentional in the way that you and interact with your care provider, like we talked about the importance of, you know, making sure that you're having those conversations, but also being intentional about what you let in too, you know what I'm saying?

Hillary

Yes. Have your earmuffs they filter everything, right?

Sara

Yeah. Or I mean, or maybe there are things that have already been led in decades ago that are just like part of your identity as a birthgiver that are not helpful. Like, what do you do with that? Well, maybe you need to intentionally work through them and figure out, and again, we're going into the reflective portion... You can't really separate it out. But saying like, "Where did this come from? Do I place value in that? Can I separate myself from it?" And just like working through until you're left with an identity that is intentionally chosen and not just, kind of, what was thrust upon you.

Hillary

I love it. It's almost a bridge from like being intentionally reflective.

Sara

There we go. Let's bridge Let's go there.

Hillary

Yeah no, I think we should reflect more on our own language, before we open, as we sit here and talk. No, I think that a lot of there's a lot of unconscious bias and things that we say and we don't realize it. And I think, so, reflecting on the reasons for your word choices, I think that's also important.

Sara

Yeah. Again, like just pausing and saying, "Oh, what just came out of my mouth?" or "What am I about to open my mouth and say?" would be the best place to pause. But sometimes, like a random example that comes to mind, I, for a while, was a volunteer doula at a local hospital that has a volunteer doula program. And so, I had a couple of women that I talked to that were maybe interested in my sport but they were, kind of, not quite ready for it yet. And I was going to go take a lunch break, and I was just telling the charge nurse, or, I don't remember who I was, the care coordinator that I was going to go down to lunch, but there were these people that were maybe interested in my sport so here's my phone number if they get to a point where they're like "Yeah, have her come," call me back up. Um, but I remember having this conversation with her and saying like, Oh yeah, I have these two or three patients in rooms blah blah, blah, blah blah. And then being like, wait, okay, A) I'm not even a care provider. Like I'm a volunteer doula. B) I had purposely avoided using that word, I wasn't quite as mindful about it at this point, but from that point where I was like, "What just came out of my mouth?" I've been really reflective about like, why did I say that? Where was it coming from? And part of it, I think, was like wanting to be savvy with the nurses, and use their lingo and whatever but if we're really reflecting ...Wow, yeah, yeah.

Hillary

No, I was just gonna say like, it sounds to me like you were mirroring, right? Like, no matter if she said one word to you at all, you know that she's a nurse. So you're almost, you know, like, "Okay, now I'm talking to the nurse. So we're going to talk about patient."

Sara

Yeah. So from the other side of it, when I was pregnant with my first two babies, because they're twins, I was on hospital bed rest for four weeks. And that was totally something that I did during my time there, is that I started to mirror the nurses lingo. Because I wanted to, you know, show them that I was smart and could like play their game and whatever. Not that they were trying to play games. They were taking good care of me, I was in early labor at 30 weeks and we didn't want that to happen. And they came at 35, so we hung on for a while. But yeah, I kind of wanted to use their lingo and very much became, I don't know, it was kind of this tricky place between, I was trying to empower myself as a patient, right? I was trying to be like, "See, I'm the savvy patient!" But I was very much assigning myself in the role of patient by just using all of this terminology that was very much placing me in that position. And a lot of ways, I was, there were a lot of medical needs that were needing to be cared for. But then I think it really affected my birth experience, when I was in labor that I had been in this position as a patient, using all the patient lingo and wasn't as intentional or thoughtful about the choices that I made during my labor.

Hillary

That is interesting. Well, I was just thinking, as a doula I tried very hard not to, like overly use the medical language. So, I feel like sometimes I'm like this cultural broker, not to be too anthropological. But, you know, I can speak the medical language, I can give you the two minute rundown of everything that's happened, with all the abbreviations. Like, I know how to do that. But I intentionally try not to do that with my clients.

Sara

Right. Because what position does that put them back in? Like they're part of a medical system, and if they're trying to birth in a natural physiological system, whether that's at the hospital or not,

Hillary

I was going to tell you, I did have a client who made me much more reflective on my language than I ever really thought about before. I got the opportunity to serve surrogate clients. And that really made me much more reflective about how I spoke to her. And, you know, she was excited, but for much different reasons than a lot of other people that I had the opportunity to serve. And it was a very interesting, it was very interesting, it made me so reflective, it just made me think, "Oh, wait, no, no, you're not, that's not your baby." And I took a really great training online actually, that made me think more about, you know, how I was going to speak to this person.

Sara

Yeah, I think that's a really good example. Because like, because then I bet going forward, you were more reflective about the language that used with all your other clients, even if they weren't surrogate parents because you realized that they are unique individuals, right? That should be spoken to in unique ways based on their--

Hillary

I may or may not have revised my entire website. Because I really enjoyed that process. And, I mean, that person in particular, is really lovely. And I was like, "Man I would love to do that again, I should make sure that, you know, my website and everything that I publish, you know, reflects that I want to be a part of that." So, and I know how to serve those people in a way that they would like to be. So that that was a really, it was I felt like it was on the job training. But really, really rewarding.

Hillary

So the last one is empowering. How do you make sure that your language is empowering?

Sara

Well, we've talked about a couple of things and obviously, they're all intertwined and it comes a lot from being reflective saying: "What am I doing when I refer to my client as a patient? What is that implying about our relationship and her abilities to make decisions to birth without assistance?" etc, etc. And so we've talked about that, we've talked about using intentionally empowering terminology like birthgiver, like, giving birth versus being delivered, right? I also think, as we're talking about reflection and the unique experiences and needs of each client that you serve, or if you are the one giving birth, as you're reflective, as you're considering, something that I do with my clients is have them just sit down and think about "Okay, what are my feelings and beliefs about birth as a process?" Okay, next step, "What are my feelings and beliefs about myself as a birth giver?" And then if a partner is there doing it, "What are my partner's feelings?" Well, the partner fills out: "What are my feelings about my partner's abilities or role as a birthgiver?" Okay, what about the roles of authority figures? Because that comes up. And different people are positioning themselves in different ways, and you're accepting or rejecting different authority figures throughout the whole process.

Hillary

I am a big rule follower and Robin makes fun of me for that. There's a story, I'll tell you later. Yeah, no, no, it's just, we were driving and I was like, "Oh, I can't do that. That's against the rules." And she was like, "It's okay. Going somewhere..." It's silly.

Sara

Yeah! Okay. But like, that's, okay so, but let's go with that. Because, we're talking about being reflective about various things that are going to come up in birth. And then, I was gonna say for the empowering part, then you work through, like we've talked about, the reflection: where's this coming from? And you choose, intentionally, again, looping back to being intentional, those things that are empowering. So, if Hillary's giving birth, and is a total rule follower, it really matters who you see as an authority figure, and what role you're going to let that authority figure play. Like, if you see, if your care provider is, like, I don't want to do a negative stereotype, whatever, but if it's an obstetrician with a 50% cesarean rate, and you are induced for some medical reason, and you see your care provider is an ultimate authority figure--who has proven through their practice that, you know, they often choose those choices that lead towards the path of a cesarean--and you're just saying, "Okay, yes, yep, you're in charge," then you have a 50% chance of having a cesarean birth, which, obviously, is not in alignment with, like, the actual physiological medical needs for necessary birth.

Hillary

Yeah, and sometimes I feel like, well, so again, to put on my anthropologist hat, a little bit, I think that, you know, we're taught in our culture very much to respect the medical profession. And I think that that's a, it's a good thing. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but respect versus, like, doing literally everything you're told and never questioning anything is a very, very different thing. And so, respecting authority versus, like, bowing down to it, I think that you need to make that fine distinction.

Sara

Yeah, like you're saying that we are absolutely, I'm not and I don't think Hillary is, advocating for, of course you're not being disrespectful to care providers, or like we are not saying like, go be a belligerent like, "No I won't _____!" That's not going to be a helpful way to communicate with your care provider, A). B) It's not the respect that a human being deserves, especially one who is in a service oriented profession and serving you. C) I don't know... all the things!

Hillary

I feel like you should be empowered to be as respectful, like to be mirroring respect, right? So if someone is being completely disrespectful and talking down to you, that's different than someone coming to have a conversation with you, like, "This is my opinion. These are the reasons why I'm recommending this." You know, that's a different story than, walking in and saying, "Hey, you're going to have a cesarean because it's 4pm and I have a tee time." I literally never heard that phrase uttered by a physician before. Never.

Sara

Mutual respect, and I think that that goes along with being intentional about who you place in authority as an authority figure. No matter how you position yourself. In some ways, whoever you choose as your care provider is going to have some level of authority at some point during your birth experience. And so, you want there to be that level of mutual respect that, "Wow, my care provider respects and honors my authority as the one with the baby in my body, with the intuition to know the best choices for this circumstance, and with the power to and the ability to birth this baby." And not choosing somebody who doesn't respect your position as somebody bringing life into the world, somebody, you know, a care provider that sees you more as a patient who's a passive recipient of care, that's not going to be able to have that mutual level of respect. And really not going to be an empowering position for either person.

Hillary

I really loved how you incorporated all three resources into that.

Sara

Oh, well, there you go! That was my concluding.

Hillary

I think that was fantastic! Uh, Sara?

Sara

Yes, Hillary?

Hillary

Are you ready for my silly question?

Sara

I'm ready for your silly question.

Hillary

Have you seen the BFG or read the BFG?

Sara

I have read it. I have not seen it.

Hillary

This has inspired the question that I chose, so that's your warning.

Sara

I'm a little scared.

Hillary

Would you rather burp bubbles or fart green fumes?

Sara

Burp bubbles!! Bubbles are magical.

Hillary

Agreed. How fun would it be to just be drinking soda all day and have little kids follow you around the zoo while you burped bubbles?

Sara

I mean, like, I hope that I could do it kind of politely

Hillary

Oh see and I was imagining you, like, leading a parade while you're burping out bubbles!

Sara

Well, either way, I still would prefer the bubbles.

Hillary

I would be so proud if I could burp bubbles. Green fumes not so much. It would be a little more embarrassing.

Hillary

I really appreciate you taking the time, Sara, I know that we're in different time zones, and you only let me fangirl once so far when we met in person. I really, really appreciate you taking the time. Especially because I know that your podcast is typically much shorter than ours, because we are chatty. Not that you're not chatty, but

Sara

I like to be chatty. I just restrict sometimes.

Hillary

I love it. I think that's fantastic.

Sara

Well, thank you. Thanks for chatting with me. I appreciate your perspective. And, what are you laughing about?

Hillary

I was like, "Oh, I have a perspective!"

Sara

Yeah! Your medical anthropology perspective, you pulled that hat out two or three times.

Hillary

I honestly I never take it off. I got to interview one of my grad school professors for the podcast and I think it was after we were finished. She was like, "You're doing such a great job using your PhD!" And I was like, "Aw, that was maybe the best compliment I ever got." So, I just, it never turns off. That's all right. Robin did get upset. Robin got upset because I, we were in Las Vegas together and she said, "Do you ever turn the anthropologist off?" Like, no, not really. Sorry

Sara

I like it. Keep it coming.

Hillary

Thanks Sara!

Sara

Thank you, Hillary.

In this episode, I tackle the hot topic of consent in the birth space.

TRANSCRIPT:

Before we jump into the content on today's episode, I wanted to encourage you to head on over to www.birthwords.com, check out the new website and all the features there. You'll notice a few things. There's a Classes tab, where you can sign up for one-on-one video consults. And I'd love to meet with you that way, either for expectant families or birth professionals. Stay tuned, in a while those will turn into full fledged online courses, but for now, you can have the one-on-one if you sign up there. You can also check out the Shop tab which has birth affirmations cards that you can choose from the ones that speak to you or customize your own and order from there. And, if you use the promo code podcast for either of those purchases, you can get 15% off, so head on over to www.birthwords.com. Come and check it out.

Hi, welcome to today's episode about informed consent. This is a big phrase in the birth world. I know doulas who have T-shirts that say "informed consent is my jam." And it's important and people are passionate about it, because it doesn't always happen the way that it should. I've talked a little bit about this topic previously. I'm thinking about my conversation with Rebecca Dekker that was aired on October 28. Go back and check that one out if you haven't. We talked a little bit about informed consent or informed choice in that episode. And it's a really important topic that we'll continue to touch on and dig into in upcoming episodes. Today I want to talk about this progression from no consent, to consent, to informed consent, to informed choice.

So, no consent, unfortunately happens in the birth space more than people would like to admit. Occasionally it makes headlines, but most of the time it doesn't. And most of the time, this looks like things like the nurse saying: "Okay, the doctor wants me to turn up your Pitocin," so she turns it up, not waiting for any sort of consent, not waiting for a verbal "Yes, that's okay." So, I'm thinking of when you fly in an airplane, if you're seated in an exit row, they tell you the roles and responsibilities of being seated in that row and what you would need to be able to help with in the event of an emergency and the plane will not take off until each person and an exit row has given a verbal "Yes."

And sometimes, in the birth space, that verbal "Yes," is not waited for and it can have traumatic, long-lasting effects. I'm thinking of unconsented episiotomies--have a huge effect. And, just other things that are done during the birth process that don't recognize and honor a woman as a life-giving agent, engaged in a praiseworthy work, right? Somebody who's bringing new life into the world, who has carried this life within her own body for nine months, and is now emerging, and is now inviting that baby to be born, the birthgiver is playing a critical role in the ongoing drama of life. And, acting for her, acting upon her, without her consent is completely counter to the truth of the work that she is doing, and the beauty of it.

So let's talk about consent, then. We talked about no consent, let's talk about consent: "compliance in or approval of what is done or proposed by another." That's Merriam Webster, there: "compliance in or approval of what is done or proposed by another." So still here, that agent, the actor is the care provider. Saying: "Hey, I'm going to do this," but it does in this case, wait for that "yes. That's okay. You can proceed with that."

Still, with the power in the hands of the care provider, with the nurse or doctor or midwife being the one proposing or doing a course of action, and then leaving the role of the birth giver to be simply to consent, again, I argue does not honor the beautiful, life-giving, life changing work that she's doing in bringing that baby into the world. And of course, people will argue, and I will not disagree, that in some emergency situations, this is appropriate for the care provider to be the one really proposing the course of action. And, then we'll go into the next step of informing as much as possible, as much as emergency allows, and then moving forward with it.

In some cases, that's appropriate.

But in most cases, as I talked about in episode one and episode three, birth is typically emergence, not emergency, and sometimes we act as if it's the other way around. So, let's take another step forward into informed consent. Google says that informed consent is "permission granted in the knowledge of the possible consequences, typically that which is given by a patient to a doctor for treatment with full knowledge of the possible risks and benefits." So, with this model, who is granting the permission? The patient. It's a step up in that the patient is supposed to fully acknowledge and be made aware of all the risks and benefits. That's great when this happens. Again, I think there's another step that we can take beyond that. But often it doesn't.

Often what we call informed consent is really just taking that step back to consent. Oh, your doctor wants me to break your water. Oh, your doctor wants me to turn up your Pitocin. And sometimes there's an opportunity to ask questions. A lot of times the assumed authority of the doctor is the reasoning given, and there's no conversation for risks and benefits in that space.

But really, truly for informed consent to truly happen, what that means is that there's the informed portion of conversation in which the birthgiver has a conversation with their care provider about the possible risks and the possible benefits of proceeding forward with the proposed action. And the birthgiver should make the decision that they make in full knowledge of both sides.

And again, I don't often see this happen to this full extent. And, it's also worth noting that Google's description says informed consent is "permission granted in the knowledge of possible consequences, typically that which is given by a patient to a doctor for treatment with full knowledge of the possible risks and benefits." You notice I paused there this time on patient. This is one of my ticks--one of the things that makes me tick?-- No, this is one of my issues that I have sometimes in the birth world is that we say "okay, you are a patient in the hospital setting." A patient according to, again, my good friend, Google is "a person receiving or registered to receive medical treatment." Let's stop there for a minute, "receiving or registered to receive medical treatment." Okay, so we're giving birth and there is some medical treatment that will most likely come along with it. Or maybe stitches. After the birth, there may again be medications administered throughout labor, then there's medical treatment given to the child after it's born. But you notice a person receiving medical treatment really puts the birthgiver in this passive state of receiving treatment. A birthgiver, I use that phrase a lot, right? It's my favorite, because they're giving birth. Maybe we should call them a lifegiver. Maybe that would help us recognize that they're not there to receive treatment. They're there to bring new life into the world.

And it's tricky because a hospital where most babies are born, is set up to provide treatment for those who need it. And there are many benefits that the hospital provides for those giving birth there. My perspective is that they are far too many and overdone. And that, whatever your opinion about how many interventions should or should not happen during birth, still, when a patient goes to a hospital to receive treatment for an illness, that's a very different thing that we're dealing with than when a birthgiver arrives at the hospital to bring new life into the world. Okay, so here's the other nugget that came along with Google's description of patient. It has some similar words listed down below some synonyms. Here they are: "sick person, case, sufferer, victim, invalid," and the list goes on.

Now, if I was a sick person receiving treatment, some of those I would still squirm about being called. I don't love the term invalid, though I've sometimes been an invalid at a hospital receiving treatment. I hope that I never go to a hospital as a victim. And I hope that the number of people who have the experience of being a sufferer while giving birth can decrease and decrease and decrease over time, as they're made more aware of their options, their choices and as they're given compassionate care that really considers their perspectives.

Okay, so perhaps that was a little bit of a side soapbox about the word patient, but let's not think of those giving birth as sick people, victims, invalids. Okay, moving on, interesting, another gem the Google Gods bestowed upon me as I was looking on Google for informed consent, and oh, and then patient as followed, so the first definition I read to you just a minute ago. The second definition is a linguistics specific definition of patient, "the semantic role of a noun phrase denoting something that is affected or acted upon by the action of a verb." And we're not going to get too into this, but did you notice affected or acted upon by the action of a verb we're using that word, patient? And it means in linguistics, when you're grabbing the structure of a sentence, or in the case of people, it means being acted upon. And, I think that is something we really need to step away from in the first place.

So, let's talk about informed choice. We have arrived at the end of our progression from no consent, to consent, to informed consent, to informed choice. I love, for this idea of informed choice, the BRAIN acronym. BRAIN stands for Benefits, Risks, Alternatives, Intuition and Nothing. And I think that this acronym places the birthgiver, and again, I use that word purposefully, it puts the onus of agency on the person giving birth. As the actor, the decision maker, the researcher who is consulting medical experts, and others as needed, to inform that choice. It puts that birthgiver in the position of informed decision maker, benefits, risks, alternatives, intuition, nothing. Whenever there's a crossroads a choice to be made in the birth space, ask: "What are the benefits of constant fetal monitoring, as opposed to intermittent fetal monitoring?What are the risks? What are the alternatives? What does my intuition say? And what if we do nothing?"

Again, this could happen in the case of labor augmentation. "Let's get you on some pitocin, your contractions haven't really been picking up and you haven't made any cervical dilation progress in the last three hours.

Okay, let's pause. What are the benefits of starting some Pitocin?

What are the risks of starting some Pitocin?

And you'll have those conversations with your care provider and they'll lay those out. What are the benefits and the risks? And, do your research to find out the risks that may not be mentioned in that conversation, benefits that may not be mentioned in that conversation. Alternatives: What else could I do to speed up labor? Is there something besides pitocin that can have the same effect? Intuition: What do I feel right about? And nothing? What if I just continue to labor as I'm doing and we don't intervene right now what would be the consequence of that? Again, I love this acronym putting the birthgiver in the position of informed decision maker.

So, what does informed choice informed decision making look like in real life? It looks like choosing a care provider who recognizes that you have unique situations, perspectives, preferences, intuition, and desires and who supports them to the ultimate extent that they can. It looks like referring to yourself, in your mind, in conversation with others, etc. as an informed decision maker, avoiding phrases like "my doctor won't let me." Choose one instead who supports you as a decision maker and informs you of the unique responsibilities related to your specific situation. Or, it also looks like avoiding the phrase: "I can't because I'm high risk." Instead, we could say, "because of my unique circumstances during this pregnancy, I'm choosing x,y, & z."

You see how we reframed that, we didn't say "I can't because I've had This Label put upon me and other's authority dictates my actions." Instead, I say, "I recognize that in this pregnancy with this baby, at this time, there are some unique circumstances. And because I'm aware of them, I'm going to make specific choices that will be beneficial for me in this situation."

What else does this look like? What does being an informed decision maker look like? It looks like finding the support you need, family members who are supportive, a doula, supportive care providers, etc. to help you find a situation in which you feel empowered, confident, capable and respected as you do the magnificent work of bringing new life into the world.

Thank you for joining me on today's episode. As we wrap up, I just want to extend an invitation if you are liking what you hear on the podcast if you feel like you've learned something or it has given you a new perspective, that has been helpful, if it has given you power or confidence, or helped you reflect on the language that you use, please leave a review. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'd love to hear what's helpful and what's working for you. And please share with your friends, colleagues and neighbors so that we can spread the influence of Birth Words.

Sarah Roberts, birth photographer, shares her birth experiences and journey to becoming a birth photographer. We discuss the rhetorical role of being a birth photographer in the community and how her profession honors the birth experience.

TRANSCRIPT:

Sara

Welcome to the Birth Words podcast. Today we have a special guest, my friend Sarah Roberts. She is a lifestyle photographer and specializes in birth photography. She is here today to tell us about her stories of birth with her three children and the role that language played in those births. So welcome, Sarah!

Sarah

Thank you!

Sara

It's great to have you here. I'm going to just jump in with some questions. And for any of these, feel free to answer them specific to one of your pregnancies and births or kind of touch on all of them, whatever just comes to mind as being most relevant. Because I know you have three different experiences to draw from. So, my first question is, what words did you use to identify yourself as an expectant mother and as a laboring mother, and where did these words come from? Did you read books? Did they come from family members, your personal experiences, or maybe from your care provider? Where did these words come from? That you identified yourself with.

Sarah

I think that's kind of hard, I didn't really enjoy, like, during the actual pregnancy, I don't think I really identified with any particular words. I think in my mind I was like, feeling: how do I want for this to go? Do I want to lean towards my friends who went unmedicated and all natural or do I just want to lean towards, you know, having a hospital birth and having the medications that I need, and that will help. So I kind of identified myself in those terms. And I really felt like I didn't have any other knowledge. And I'm thinking specifically more of my first pregnancy because it was, I felt like, just the most impactful for me because it was the first one. But I think maybe the biggest thing that I identified with was, which is kind of sad, it was dealing towards the weight gain. I had I gained about 40-ish pounds during that pregnancy, which was, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that. And then, one of my doctors mentioned to me that I shouldn't gain any more weight. And I was about six months in, or maybe halfway I can't remember. And that was so hard for me to hear because, here I am feeling like I'm doing all I can, I'm working to create, I'm creating a child within me, and then to mention that what I'm doing is something wrong because I'm eating too much and being too lazy, I don't know. And I was, I felt kind of stuck. I didn't know what to do about that, like, how do I, I mean, I have these cravings, I'm hungry all the time, and you're telling me not to gain any more weight. And so that was kind of impactful for me. And in fact, when I went into labor, he was there, he was the doctor on call, and I was really disappointed. I didn't want him to be there during something so pivotal. Luckily, he was there while I went into the hospital, and I just was like, I don't want to deal with him. I have really hard feelings about it what he told me. But fortunately, all he did was break my water, and administer and he left and there was a shift change. And so, by the time I delivered, it was a new doctor who I felt more comfortable with. So, anyway, there you go!

Sara

No, thank you for sharing that. I think that's really important because, like, this one thing that he said, totally affected your relationship with him and the trust that you felt and the comfort, the level of comfort that you had when you were doing this awesome work not only during birth, but throughout your pregnancy. And, you felt like his words acknowledged only one thing that he was judging wasn't being done, as he would recommend, and didn't acknowledge all the amazing things that you were doing exactly as you should be doing and that were going so well. And it sounds like he didn't give any additional advice. Like, if he really was concerned that there shouldn't be more weight gain, then you'd hope that he would also give some tips or like guidance about how to healthfully manage that and still be able to get the nutrients that you and your baby need. And you know, and it sounds like it--

Sarah

Yeah well, and even if he did, I probably wouldn't hear it, you know, because I was so focused on how he said it. And the way he said it was just so negative to me. And if I had a better relationship before with him, maybe it would have made a difference to or even mentioned, the more positive things. I don't remember any of that. So it was just that negative thing that I focused on.

Sara

That makes a lot of sense. Because, when you are an expectant woman, you are doing so much good and there are some really hard things that you're sacrificing for, and it's really hard to not have people verbally acknowledge that and only verbally acknowledge, like, what you feel like they're saying you're doing wrong. I think that's huge. I'm sorry that that happened. I hope that you had more supportive care providers in the future, and sounds like even among the team of doctors, you were working with that was just kind of one thing that you were glad to get away from. Okay. And let's talk about your birth experiences. Can you remember any words that you used, or that others use, to help you frame the experience? Some people have, you know, preconceived ideas about how birth is going to feel either physically, emotionally, or what. What it is like what is the process of birth? Can you remember in your different birth experiences, how you approach the idea of labor and birth?

Sarah

I, I don't know. I don't feel like I have anything like that shaped what I knew. I mean, all I was just thinking for each one, it was going to be a big surprise. Like, I didn't know what would happen. Even though, I mean granted, yeah, your cervix is going to dilate and you're going to... Your water is going to break, you know, but the sequence of things… how that's going to happen, the station of baby, you know... I really feel like I just did myself a huge disservice and not finding out, or, you know, having responsibility enough to look up that stuff on my own. I read some of the materials from, like, the offices that I went to, but it was more like the process of birth and, I don't know, I don't feel like, I don't know, I've kind of detached from that. And so, I guess I don't have any. I mean, I think it was more of an unknown, and a little bit of fear because each one was just different, but it's kind of the same process. With the last one I was a little bit more experienced obviously, having two, but at the same time, deciding to go unmedicated for the third one, just I think I went in very unprepared to know what, because if I had gone in knowing: "okay, here's where I am at now, I'm heading into transition, and this is what I can expect it's going to get hard, but then it's going to be close to being done," you know, but I didn't have that. And I don't remember my moto, I feel like it was such a quiet you know, thing, you know, even in the visits beforehand, nothing like to help prepare me and I don't know, maybe I just didn't ask questions. I didn't know what to ask still, even the third time around. It's so embarrassing to me, but I share this because I want others to not do this too. And it's not until I got into birth photography that really understand it so much better now, and I'm close friends with all these doulas and I hear this all the time and it's like, "Okay, the next time around, I know what's going to happen. I know what to anticipate. It's going to be kind of different. Because of my experience with the third one." Anyways, so I don't know if that answers your question.

Sara

I think you make really good points by just saying, I think there's no reason to feel embarrassed or sad because so many women approach birth exactly the way that you did and that I did with my first birth experience. In that, many people do all the time that they don't really have, like you said, I say: "What words did you use to frame your experience?" And you're like: "I don't know, it just kind of went into it."

And I think it's reflective of, I mean, I think that we use language, we use words, in part to reflect our knowledge and experiences, and you didn't really have knowledge or experiences. So it makes sense that you didn't have any words to frame the experience for you. But I love that you're saying that you want that to be not the norm, right? You want that to be different for other women because I think part of the thing is that we don't like birth, it's a taboo subject in some circles. I've been a doula for a couple of years and like, just this last time I was with my parents was the first time that I felt like my dad was like actually asking questions about it. He's not, like, getting into the nitty gritty details of birth, but, like, actually asking, "so what do you do with your clients?" And before, he was just kind of like, "Oh, you do that birth stuff, like that's weird" and would just, like, I just felt uncomfortable every time we had an exchange because it felt like something he didn't feel comfortable talking about, which made me feel devalued. And I think that we need to, in our society, show that we value birth more just by speaking about it more. Because not having words to talk about something means that you're lacking a lot more than just words. So, does that ring true with what you're saying?

Sarah

Yes. And also, as you're talking it made me also realize, like, I associate pregnancy birth with pain, right? Because, there's the epidural. That's the fallback. You know, if you're in pain, just get an epidural and, and even like, baby showers are kind of a weird thing to go to, people have weird feelings about baby showers. Some love going to or you know, maybe it's for the social aspect. But others view it as a place in the platform to talk about their negative birth experiences. Because I think that they end up having these negative experiences because of the way birth is shaped for them, like, whether it's what people other people have said, you know, negative birth experiences, like just kind of create more negative birth experiences, just because that's what you think, that's what you hear. And you think that's the norm. And so, then women want to feel maybe validated in their decisions to use interventions, you know, or to just be a passive participant and have the doctor just tell them what to do. Or they just have these painful experiences that they just didn't get to process and work through. And so they use baby showers as a place to do that. And so here they are, talking about negative birth experiences in front of an expectant mother who's going to have a baby soon. It's like the worst place ever for that. So we need to change our, we need to change our society and how we, we talk about birth. And we like granted Yeah, if you had a bad experience, yeah, let's talk about it and let's work through it. And but let's see how we can change it to it doesn't always have to be like that it can be power empowering, and it burns is such a sacred event and you're creating life and you're helping a little person come into this world. And it's so special and it's so amazing. And we need to give it that. It's not just some terrible ordeal that women have to go through. And it's something like, oh, we're we're all victims in this. No, we are not victims, and we are not martyrs. And, we can be champions as we bring in the next generation and if we can help others, and cheer them on to do the same.

Sara

I love everything that you just said. I just want to like stamp a big "amen!" right there. That's awesome. I think that critically important, everything you just said. And it made me want to know how you got involved in birth photography and what role you see that playing in like this societal change that you feel like needs to happen around birth?

Sarah

Well, I feel like it was just such a thing I stumbled on. I really didn't, I didn't anticipate myself ever doing this. I've always been interested in photography. But I think what made the huge difference for me was my friend and neighbor Danny Reed, becoming a doula and her passion for birth. It just is so infectious. It just, uh, she would talk about it and talk about positive things about birth and her excitement with helping women having a positive birth experience by helping them give them extra support and whatnot. And was just so pivotal in my, in my direction, and I have a new birth photographer. She lives in my neighborhood area and I didn't even think of that. But when I went to my sister's baby shower, she lived in Idaho at the time, and she was going to be scheduled for a C section because her baby was breached and I had brought my camera. I went up with my other sister, we were going to have a weekend of it, and the next day was going to be her baby shower and we found out that the doctor changed the induction date to, or the C section date to the day of the baby shower. And so, I don't know what, not what possessed me, but I don't know what came into my mind like, I should take a picture of a birth like, I didn't even think of the other birth photographer I knew. I didn't even think of it being a, like, a career option for myself. I just thought that would be fun to document and see and I want to see it I you know, I was kind of fascinated by a C section and so the stars aligned, I was able to be in the room with everyone and take pictures and it was such an emotional, amazing event, watching my nephew be born. And I get a little emotional, because it was so wonderful to see, so beautiful. And my sister, of course, is emotional and she was able to see her her precious little boy being born and I got to document what was happening. And, because she is there on the table, couldn't really see much, and her baby was passed through the little window to be cleaned up and foot stamped and measured and all that stuff and so she didn't get to see all that. And, I got to get those first pictures of them as a family and and then later on I did some of her nursing him, and for the first time I got pictures of him getting bathed for the first time, and all of that was just like wow! What a high and emotional high was on. I wanted to do it again and again and again. And so that's, that was my start of it. And so it was it was a really amazing event for me.

Sara

That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that.

Sarah

I guess I didn't really finish your other question was, well, and now I see so many others have experiences where they're just like, you know, birth is not such an amazing event for them, for whatever reason or another, whether it was in their control or not. And, I want to help change that. I view myself as a birth worker even though I'm just documenting things, I feel like it's an important aspect of birth work and making changes. In the birth photography course i'm actually taking right now, it's saying they are saying people have used, like providers have looked at photography from birth, and seen things like, "Oh, we can change this, we can make this better for the patient." And so, positive changes are happening and people are even like, I didn't know I, I could do this option, but because I saw it in a picture; until I saw that, I didn't know it was an option. And so you know, women are seeing these options happen, and it's empowering them more. And I think the more we empower women in birth, the more that they will be able to recover after birth and be able to pick themselves up and have less problems with postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. I feel like those are major, major, not consequences, but things that happened because of poor birth experiences, just things that, traumatic things that happened to them during labor and delivery. And so we can, if we can avoid it, as best as we can, then let's do that and help these women to not, not have as bad a time with depression and anxiety afterwards.

Sara

I think that's huge. And I think you were talking earlier about how birth is a sacred event. And like, I think that as you are a photographer in that situation, you're showing your belief that it's just this beautiful, transformative sacred event. And being a photographer there like legitimizes that, that sanctity. Just like you would want a wedding photographer at a really that really important event and you would want it at your baby's christening or blessing or whatever, we photograph important moments in our lives. So I think that you're doing a huge service of removing the stigma or the taboo of birth by just saying, "Look at this beautiful, amazing transformative experience." And I want it to be memorable and shareable. So I think that's huge.

Sarah

Yes, exactly. And, I was able to photograph Danny's pregnancy or, excuse me, birth a couple years ago with her last baby and she kept saying how, how she was able to process her birth again, because I think we want to, we want to talk about our birth story over and over again. It's, it's helpful, it's processing, you know, it's healthy to process that and to remember what happened and the events that happened. And when you have pictures to add to that or video which I am working on too, but video even and hearing the noises and seeing the baby come out. it's just so empowering. You don't really remember those things when you're in the moment giving birth. And so it helps to have the words with it, as well as the images together to help create, recreate that, that event and that story that forms you. That's part of your history. That's, that's who you are.

Sara

Thank you. I'm going to keep thinking about all those things you just said, because I've been thinking a lot about birth stories and why we tell them and what sort of like what the rhetorical purposes and I think that photography is a really important part of that. So, I'm going to keep thinking about that. And I feel like our interview has gone a different way than, like, with the questions that I sent to you. But I'm so glad that it did, because I really appreciate all the thoughts that you've shared. And I think that our listeners will too. So before we wrap up, will you let them know how they can follow you on social media, your website, all of those things.

Sarah

Okay, my website is www.yellowkitephoto.com and, using that handle @yellowkitephoto, you can reach me on Instagram and Facebook. And, I just would love if you followed me, even if you're not interested or, or whatever, it's important to share and to embrace the stigma of birth being a taboo thing, something that shouldn't be seen and, so give it a follow and share with others if you feel like it's inspiring to you and would inspire others.

Sara

Great. Thank you so much, Sarah!

Sarah

Thank you. This is so wonderful to talk about. I love talking about birth!

Sara

Great. Me too!