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Camillo Padoa-Schioppa is a Professor of Neuroscience at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. In this conversation, we talk about Camillo's work on economic values in the brain, whether it is causally involved in choice, Camillo's career, working with different species, and much more.
BJKS Podcast is a podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related, hosted by Benjamin James Kuper-Smith.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
0:00:00: The historic background of economic value
0:12:31: How Camillo became a neuroeconomist
0:38:50: What does neuroscience add to our understanding of behaviour?
0:47:52: Value in the brain / discussing Camillo's 2006 Nature paper
1:05:47: Does the brain even need to compute value?
1:11:59: Causality in neuroscience / discussing Camillo's 2020 Nature paper
1:27:19: Trivial decisions
1:31:26: Is it wise to do neuroscience in humans and in animals, or should I focus on one approach?
1:40:15: A book or paper more people should read
1:43:19: Something Camillo wishes he'd learnt sooner
1:45:53: Advice for PhD students/postdocs
Podcast links
Camillo's links
Ben's links
References
Ballesta ... & Padoa-Schioppa (2020). Values encoded in orbitofrontal cortex are causally related to economic choices. Nature.
Bentham (1780). An introduction to the principles of morals and legislation.
Gigerenzer & Gaissmaier (2011). Heuristic decision making. Annual review of psychology.
Hayden & Niv (2021). The case against economic values in the orbitofrontal cortex (or anywhere else in the brain). Behavioral Neuroscience.
Homer. Iliad.
Homer. Odyssey.
Padoa-Schioppa (2009). Range-adapting representation of economic value in the orbitofrontal cortex. Journal of Neuroscience.
Padoa-Schioppa (2011). Neurobiology of economic choice: a good-based model. Annual review of neuroscience.
Padoa-Schioppa & Assad (2006). Neurons in the orbitofrontal cortex encode economic value. Nature.
Padoa-Schioppa & Conen (2017). Orbitofrontal cortex: a neural circuit for economic decisions. Neuron.
Padoa-Schioppa ... & Visalberghi (2006). Multi-stage mental process for economic choice in capuchins. Cognition.
Padoa-Schioppa, Li & Bizzi (2002). Neuronal correlates of kinematics-to-dynamics transformation in the supplementary motor area. Neuron.
Smith (1759). The theory of moral sentiments.
Salzman ... & Newsome (1990). Cortical microstimulation influences perceptual judgements of motion direction. Nature.
Salzman ... & Newsome (1992). Microstimulation in visual area MT: effects on direction discrimination performance. Journal of Neuroscience.
Visalberghi & Trinca (1989). Tool use in capuchin monkeys: Distinguishing between performing and understanding. Primates.
Episode w/ Smaldino: https://geni.us/bjks-smaldino_2
Juliana Schroder is a professor at the UC Berkeley Haas School of Business. In this conversation, we talk about her research in which she asks people to talk to strangers, and how this experience is usually a lot more pleasant than people expect. We talk about how the research came to be, what they found, how culture and norms affect the results, how to create robust and replicable field studies, and much more.
BJKS Podcast is a podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related, hosted by Benjamin James Kuper-Smith.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
00:00: The origin of Juliana's studies on talking to strangers
02:15: Why don't people talk to strangers (during commutes)?
05:46: What happens when strangers are forced to talk to each other?
08:47: How to start a conversation
13:31: Cultural differences in talking to strangers
31:19: How to create robust and replicable field studies
48:04: What's next for this line of research?
54:14: A book or paper more people should read
55:26: Something Juliana wishes she'd learnt sooner
57:13: Advice for PhD students/postdocs
Podcast links
Juliana's links
Ben's links
References
Boothby, Cooney, Sandstrom & Clark (2018). The liking gap in conversations: Do people like us more than we think? Psychological Science.
Epley (2015). Mindwise: Why we misunderstand what others think, believe, feel, and want.
Epley, Kardas, Zhao, Atir & Schroeder (2022). Undersociality: Miscalibrated social cognition can inhibit social connection. Trends in Cognitive Sciences.
Epley & Schroeder (2014). Mistakenly seeking solitude. Journal of Experimental Psychology: General.
Kardas, Schroeder & O'Brien (2022). Keep talking: (Mis) understanding the hedonic trajectory of conversation. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.
Roy (1997). The god of small things.
Sandstrom, Boothby & Cooney (2022). Talking to strangers: A week-long intervention reduces psychological barriers to social connection. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.
Sandstrom & Boothby (2021). Why do people avoid talking to strangers? A mini meta-analysis of predicted fears and actual experiences talking to a stranger. Self and Identity.
Schroeder, Lyons & Epley (2022). Hello, stranger? Pleasant conversations are preceded by concerns about starting one. Journal of Experimental Psychology: General.
Rick Betzel is an Associate professor at India University Bloomington. We talk about his research on network neuroscience, how to find good collaborators, Rick's path to network neuroscience, and much more.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
0:00:00: What's the purpose of connectomics if understanding a species' entire connectome (as in C elegans) doesn't allow us to fully understand its behaviour?
0:03:57: Rick's very very linear path to network neuroscience
0:19:41: Multi-scale brain networks
0:43:40: Collaborations (between people who collect data and people who analyse data)
0:52:33: The future of network neuroscience: generative modeling, network control, and edge-centric connectomics
1:13:15: A book or paper more people should read
1:15:55: Something Rick wishes he'd learnt sooner
1:18:01: Advice for PhD students/postdocs
Podcast links
Rick's links
Ben's links
References
Akarca ... (2021). A generative network model of neurodevelopmental diversity in structural brain organization. Nat Comm.
Barabási (2003). Linked.
Barabási & Albert (1999). Emergence of scaling in random networks. Science.
Betzel (2022). Network neuroscience and the connectomics revolution. In Connectomic deep brain stimulation.
Betzel & Bassett (2017). Multi-scale brain networks. Neuroimage.
Betzel & Bassett (2017). Generative models for network neuroscience: prospects and promise. Journal of The Royal Society Interface.
Betzel ... (2012). Synchronization dynamics and evidence for a repertoire of network states in resting EEG. Front comp neuro.
Bullmore & Sporns (2009). Complex brain networks: graph theoretical analysis of structural and functional systems. Nat Rev Neuro.
Cook ... (2019). Whole-animal connectomes of both Caenorhabditis elegans sexes. Nature.
Feltner & Dapena (1986). Dynamics of the shoulder and elbow joints of the throwing arm during a baseball pitch. J Appl Biomech.
Lindsay (2021). Models of the mind.
Nieminen ... (2022). Multi-locus transcranial magnetic stimulation system for electronically targeted brain stimulation. Brain stimulation.
Oh ... (2014). A mesoscale connectome of the mouse brain. Nature.
Rubinov & Sporns (2010). Complex network measures of brain connectivity: uses and interpretations. Neuroimage.
Scheffer ... (2020). A connectome and analysis of the adult Drosophila central brain. Elife.
Sporns (2016). Networks of the Brain.
Van Den Heuvel & Sporns (2011). Rich-club organization of the human connectome. J Neuro.
Watts & Strogatz (1998). Collective dynamics of ‘small-world’networks. Nature.
White ... (1986). The structure of the nervous system of the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans. Philos Trans R Soc Lond B.
Winding ... (2023). The connectome of an insect brain. Science.
Yan ... (2017). Network control principles predict neuron function in the Caenorhabditis elegans connectome. Nature.
Elisabeth Bik is a science integrity consultant. In this conversation, we talk about her work on reporting scientific errors and misconduct, how one becomes a full-time scientific integrity consultant, her postdoc work on the microbiome of dolphins, reactions to her work (both positive and negative), how to deal with online abuse, the arms race between fraudsters and fraud detectors, and much more.
BJKS Podcast is a podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related, hosted by Benjamin James Kuper-Smith.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
0:00:00: How Elisabeth became a full-time science integrity consultant
0:04:45: The microbiome of dolphins
0:12:02: What should I do if I find errors or fraud in a paper?
0:28:58: Reactions to Elisabeth's work: awards, online abuse, and lots of silence from journals
0:52:23: Should you report misconduct if you're in a vulnerable position?
0:58:19: What problems are worth reporting?
1:05:51: How does one become a (full-time) research integrity consultant?
1:13:21: The arms race between people commiting fraud and people detecting fraud
1:22:49: A book or paper more people should read
1:25:26: Something Elisabeth wishes she'd learnt sooner
1:29:09: Advice for PhD students/postdocs
Podcast links
Elisabeth's links
Ben's links
References & links
PubPeer: https://pubpeer.com/
COPE: https://publicationethics.org/
John Maddox Prize: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maddox_Prize
Episode w/ Joe Hilgard: https://geni.us/bjks-hilgard
Bik, Casadevall & Fang (2016). The prevalence of inappropriate image duplication in biomedical research publications. MBio.
Bik, Costello, Switzer, Callahan, Holmes, Wells, ... & Relman (2016). Marine mammals harbor unique microbiotas shaped by and yet distinct from the sea. Nature Communications.
Brown & Heathers (2017). The GRIM test: A simple technique detects numerous anomalies in the reporting of results in psychology. Social Psychological and Personality Science.
Reich (2009): Plastic fantastic: How the Biggest Fraud in Physics Shook the Scientific
Peter Bandettini is director of the fMRI core facility at the National Institute of Mental Health. In this episode, we talk about the history, present, and future of fMRI, alongside Peter's career.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
0:00:00: How Peter got started working on fMRI in the early 1990s
0:05:48: What was possible in neuroimaging in the late 80s
0:18:44: Major advances in fMRI in the 1990s
0:26:39: History of structural MRI
0:29:02: Major advances in fMRI since 2000
0:40:11: The future of fMRI
0:58:19: What is Peter working on?
1:06:31: A book or paper more people should read
1:14:36: Something Peter wishes he'd learnt sooner
1:21:52: Advice for PhD students/postdocs
Podcast links
Peter's links
Ben's links
References
This episode broke the character limit of show notes, couldn't include all references.
Bandettini ... (1992). Time course EPI of human brain function during task activation. Magnetic resonance in medicine.
Belliveau ... (1991). Functional mapping of the human visual cortex by magnetic resonance imaging. Science.
Biswal ... (1995). Functional connectivity in the motor cortex of resting human brain using echo‐planar MRI. Magnetic resonance in medicine.
Blamire ... (1992). Dynamic mapping of the human visual cortex by high-speed magnetic resonance imaging. PNAS.
Engel ... (1994). fMRI of human visual cortex. Nature.
Finn ... (2015). Functional connectome fingerprinting: identifying individuals using patterns of brain connectivity. Nat Neuro.
Gordon ... (2017). Precision functional mapping of individual human brains. Neuron.
Gordon ... (2023). A somato-cognitive action network alternates with effector regions in motor cortex. Nature.
Hasson ... (2004). Intersubject synchronization of cortical activity during natural vision. Science.
Huber ... (2017). High-resolution CBV-fMRI allows mapping of laminar activity and connectivity of cortical input and output in human M1. Neuron.
Huth ... (2012). A continuous semantic space describes the representation of thousands of object and action categories across the human brain. Neuron.
Kamitani ... (2005). Decoding the visual and subjective contents of the human brain. Nat Neuro.
Kwong ... (1992). Dynamic magnetic resonance imaging of human brain activity during primary sensory stimulation. PNAS.
Newbold ... (2020). Plasticity and spontaneous activity pulses in disused human brain circuits. Neuron.
Norman ... (2006). Beyond mind-reading: multi-voxel pattern analysis of fMRI data. TiCS.
Ogawa ... (1990). Brain magnetic resonance imaging with contrast dependent on blood oxygenation. PNAS.
Ogawa ... (2000). An approach to probe some neural systems interaction by functional MRI at neural time scale down to milliseconds. PNAS.
Sereno ... (1995). Borders of multiple visual areas in humans revealed by functional magnetic resonance imaging. Science.
Toi ... (2022). In vivo direct imaging of neuronal activity at high temporospatial resolution. Science.
Brian Nosek is a professor of psychology at the University of Virginia, and Co-founder and Executive Director of the Center for Open Science. In this conversation, we discuss the Center for Open Science, Brian's early interest in improving science, how COS got started, what Brian would like to do in the future, and how to figure out whether ideas are working.
BJKS Podcast is a podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related, hosted by Benjamin James Kuper-Smith.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
00:00: Brian's early interest in improving science
15:24: How the Center for Open Science got funded (by John and Laura Arnold)
26:08: How long is COS financed into the future?
29:01: What if COS isn't benefitting science anymore?
35:42: Is Brian a scientist or an entrepreneur?
40:58: The future of the Center for Open Science
51:13: A book or paper more people should read
54:42: Something Brian wishes he'd learnt sooner
58:53: Advice for PhD students/postdocs
Podcast links
Brian's links
Ben's links
References & Links
Article about John Arnold: https://www.wired.com/2017/01/john-arnold-waging-war-on-bad-science/
Scientific virtues (including stupidity): https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2022/02/10/the-scientific-virtues/
Cohen (1994). The earth is round (p<. p05). American psychologist.
Greenwald (1975). Consequences of prejudice against the null hypothesis. Psychological bulletin.
Greenwald, McGhee & Schwartz (1998). Measuring individual differences in implicit cognition: the implicit association test. Journal of personality and social psychology.
Hardwicke & Ioannidis (2018). Mapping the universe of registered reports. Nature Human Behaviour.
Meehl (1967). Theory-testing in psychology and physics: A methodological paradox. Philosophy of science.
Nosek, Banaji & Greenwald (2002). Harvesting implicit group attitudes and beliefs from a demonstration web site. Group Dynamics: Theory, research, and practice.
Nosek & Bar-Anan (2012). Scientific utopia: I. Opening scientific communication. Psychological Inquiry.
Nosek, Spies & Motyl (2012). Scientific utopia: II. Restructuring incentives and practices to promote truth over publishability. Perspectives on Psychological Science.
Rosenthal (1979). The file drawer problem and tolerance for null results. Psychological bulletin.
Open Science Collaboration (2015). Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science. Science.
Schwartz (2008). The importance of stupidity in scientific research. Journal of Cell Science.
Uhlmann, Ebersole, Chartier, Errington, Kidwell, Lai, McCarthy, Riegelman, Silberzahn & Nosek (2019). Scientific utopia III: Crowdsourcing science. Perspectives on Psychological Science.
Rachel Bedder is a postdoc with Yael Niv at Princeton. In this conversation, we talk about her research on rumination and repetitive negative thinking (in the context of a partially observable Markov decision process), her work as a curator, why she enjoys teaching without grades, how to manage yourself as a PhD student, and much more.
BJKS Podcast is a podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related, hosted by Benjamin James Kuper-Smith.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
0:00:00: Teaching maths in prison
0:06:40: Teaching without grades
0:15:42: Working as a full-time research assistant (after BSc) and dealing with lots of rejections
0:25:51: How Rachel ended up doing a postdoc with Yael Niv
0:32:08: Discussing Rachel's conference proceedings 'Modelling Rumination as a State-Inference Process' (featuring partially observable Markov decision processes)
0:56:49: Rachel's background in art and curation
1:10:58: How to not turn hobbies into a stressful thing you need to get done
1:14:46: A book or paper more people should read
1:16:47: Something Rachel wishes she'd learnt sooner
1:19:05: Advice for PhD students/postdocs, with a twist: 5 tips for managing yourself during a PhD
Podcast links
Rachel's links
Ben's links
References and links
Episodes with Matthias Stangl and Toby Wise about postdoc jobs & fellowships:
https://geni.us/bjks-wise-postdoc
https://geni.us/bjks-postdoc-stangl
Episode with Paul Smaldino on modelling social behaviour, and with Eiko Fried on theories in psychology
https://geni.us/bjks-smaldino_2
https://geni.us/bjks-fried
POMDPs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partially_observable_Markov_decision_process
Dear World Project: https://engagement.fil.ion.ucl.ac.uk/projects/dear-world-project/
5 tips for managing yourself during a PhD: https://www.rachelbedder.com/phdtips
Scientific virtues (including stupidity): https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2022/02/10/the-scientific-virtues/
Bedder, Pisupati & Niv (2023) Modelling Rumination as a State-Inference Process. https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/tfjqn
Burkeman (2021). Four thousand weeks: Time management for mortals.
McCullers (1940). The Heart is a Lonely Hunter.
Montague, Dolan, Friston & Dayan (2012). Computational psychiatry. Trends in cognitive sciences.
Geoff Cumming is an Emeritus Professor at La Trobe University. In this conversation, we discuss his work on New Statistics: estimation instead of hypothesis testing, meta-analytic thinking, and many related topics.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
0:00:00: A brief history of statistics, p-values, and confidence intervals
0:32:02: Meta-analytic thinking
0:42:56: Why do p-values seem so random?
0:45:59: Are p-values and estimation complementary?
0:47:09: How do I know how many participants I need (without a power calculation)?
0:50:27: Problems of the estimation approach (big data)
1:00:08: A book or paper more people should read
1:02:50: Something Geoff wishes he'd learnt sooner
1:04:52: Advice for PhD students and postdocs
Podcast links
Geoff's links
Ben's links
References/links
Dance of the p-values: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OL1RqHrZQ8
Significance roulette: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcJImS16jR4
Episode with Simine Vazire (SIPS): https://geni.us/bjks-vazire
Coulson, ...(2010). Confidence intervals permit, but don't guarantee, better inference than statistical significance testing. Front in Psychol.
Cumming & Calin-Jageman (2016/2024). Introduction to the new statistics: Estimation, open science, and beyond.
Cumming (2014). The new statistics: Why and how. Psychol Sci.
Cumming & Finch (2005). Inference by eye: confidence intervals and how to read pictures of data. American Psychol.
Errington, ... (2021) Reproducibility in Cancer Biology: Challpenges for assessing replicability in preclinical cancer biology. eLife.
Errington, ... (2021) Investigating the replicability of preclinical cancer biology. eLife.
Finch & Cumming (2009). Putting research in context: Understanding confidence intervals from one or more studies. J of Pediatric Psychol.
Hedges (1987). How hard is hard science, how soft is soft science? The empirical cumulativeness of research. American Psychologist.
Hunt (1997). How science takes stock: The story of meta-analysis.
Ioannidis (2005). Why most published research findings are false. PLoS Medicine.
Loftus (1996). Psychology will be a much better science when we change the way we analyze data. Curr direct psychol sci.
Maxwell, ... (2008). Sample size planning for statistical power and accuracy in parameter estimation. Annu Rev Psychol.
Oakes (1986). Statistical inference: A commentary for the social and behavioural sciences.
Pennington (2023). A Student's Guide to Open Science: Using the Replication Crisis Reform Psychology.
Rothman (1986). Significance questing. Annals of Int Med.
Schmidt (1996). Statistical significance testing and cumulative knowledge in psychology: Implications for training of researchers. Psychol Methods.
Brooke Macnamara is an associate professor at Case Western Reserve University. In this conversation, we talk about her research on growth mindset and deliberate practice, whether deliberate practice is falsifiable, the benefits of diverse experiences, and much more.
BJKS Podcast is a podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related, hosted by Benjamin James Kuper-Smith.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
0:00:00: How Brooke started working on mindset and deliberate practice
0:02:10: (Growth) mindset: does it matter?
0:21:10: Mindset interventions
0:36:48: Deliberate practice
0:47:06: Benefits of diverse experiences
0:56:20: Is the theory of deliberate practice unfalsifiable?
0:59:36: What can we take practically from the growth mindset and deliberate pratice research?
1:01:06: A book or paper more people should read
1:02:10: Something Brooke wishes she'd learnt sooner
1:04:32: Advice for PhD students and postdocs
Podcast links
Brooke's links
Ben's links
References/links
Brainology mindset intervention: https://www.mindsetworks.com/programs/brainology-for-schools
Trello: https://trello.com
Burgoyne, Hambrick, & Macnamara (2020). How firm are the foundations of mind-set theory? The claims appear stronger than the evidence. Psychol Science.
Dweck (2006). Mindset-Changing the way you think to fulfil your potential.
Epstein (2021). Range: Why generalists triumph in a specialized world.
Ericsson & Harwell (2019). Deliberate practice and proposed limits on the effects of practice on the acquisition of expert performance. Frontiers in Psychol.
Ericsson, Krampe & Tesch-Römer (1993). The role of deliberate practice in the acquisition of expert performance. Psychol Rev.
Gladwell (2008). Outliers: The story of success.
Macnamara & Burgoyne (2023). Do growth mindset interventions impact students’ academic achievement? A systematic review and meta-analysis with recommendations for best practices. Psychol Bull.
Macnamara, Hambrick & Oswald (2014). Deliberate practice and performance in music, games, sports, education, and professions: A meta-analysis. Psychol Science.
Macnamara & Maitra (2019). The role of deliberate practice in expert performance: Revisiting Ericsson, Krampe & Tesch-Römer (1993). Royal Society Open Science.
Macnamara, Moreau & Hambrick (2016). The relationship between deliberate practice and performance in sports: A meta-analysis. Perspec Psychol Science.
Macnamara, Prather & Burgoyne (2023). Beliefs about success are prone to cognitive fallacies. Nat Rev Psychol.
Sisk, Burgoyne, Sun, Butler & Macnamara (2018). To what extent and under which circumstances are growth mind-sets important to academic achievement? Two meta-analyses. Psychol Science.
Simine Vazire is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Melbourne. In this conversation, we talk about her work on meta-science, the purpose of journals and peer review, Simine's plans for being Editor-in-Chief at Psychological Science, the hidden curriculum of scienitic publishing, and much more.
BJKS Podcast is a podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related, hosted by Benjamin James Kuper-Smith.
Support the show: https://geni.us/bjks-patreon
Timestamps
0:00:00: What is SIPS and why did Simine cofound it?
0:05:10: Why Simine resigned from the NASEM Reproducibility & Replicability committee
0:13:07: Do we still need journals and peer review in 2023?
0:28:04: What does an Editor-in-Chief actually do?
0:37:09: Simine will be EiC of Psychological Science
0:59:44: The 'hidden curriculum' of scientific publishing
1:04:03: Why Siminie created a GoFundMe for DataColada
1:15:10: A book or paper more people should read
1:17:10: Something Simine wishes she'd learnt sooner
1:18:44: Advice for PhD students and postdocs
Podcast links
Simine's links
Ben's links
References/links
Episode of Black Goat Podcast I mentioned: https://blackgoat.podbean.com/e/simine-flips-out/
Mini-interview with Simine in Science: https://www.science.org/content/article/how-reform-minded-new-editor-psychology-s-flagship-journal-will-shake-things
My 2nd interview w/ Adam Mastroianni, and his blog post on peer review:
https://geni.us/bjks-mastroianni_2
Interview w/ Chris Chambers and Peer community in RR
https://geni.us/bjks-chambers
Simine's vision statement for Psychological Science
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mozmB2m5kxOoPvQSqDSguRrP5OobutU6/view
GOFUNDME for Data Colada's legal fees
https://www.gofundme.com/f/uhbka-support-data-coladas-legal-defense
Francesca Gino's response
https://www.francesca-v-harvard.org/
NYT Magazine article about Amy Cuddy (and Joe Simmons)
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/18/magazine/when-the-revolution-came-for-amy-cuddy.html
Streisand effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
Holcombe (during dogwalk). On peer review. Personal communication to Simine.
Open Science Collaboration (2015). Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science. Science.
Reich (2009): Plastic fantastic: How the Biggest Fraud in Physics Shook the Scientific
From the publisher's feed
A podcast about neuroscience, psychology, and anything vaguely related. Long-form interviews with people whose work I find interesting.

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