Bleeding Daylight

If you’re battling addiction, or know someone who is, today’s episode is not only the story of Craig Brown and his recovery, there are some really practical steps to move towards healing and wholeness.

Craig Brown's life became marred by pain, shame and distraction. Now in his book, Stop Hiding, Start Healing, he uses his own experience and talks about more than 20 years of helping others discover how to be free from the pain and shame of their past.

https://www.stophidingstarthealingbook.com/

https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Hiding-Start-Healing-Discover/dp/B08PJPWLGT

https://www.facebook.com/craigbrownstophidingstarthealing 

https://www.facebook.com/craig.brown2

(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)

Emily Olsen 

Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen 

Thanks for listening. You can follow Bleeding Daylight and connect to our social media channels by following the links at bleedingdaylight.net Please share Bleeding Daylight episodes and leave a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you’re battling addiction, or know someone who is, today’s episode is not only the story of my guest and his recovery, there are some really practical steps to move towards healing and wholeness.

He was the son of a minister, but he struggled to connect with his father. Instead, Craig Brown's life became marred by pain, shame and distraction. Now in his book, Stop Hiding, Start Healing, he uses his own experience and talks about more than 20 years of helping others discover how to be free from the pain and shame of their past. It's my honor to welcome him to bleeding daylight. Craig, thank you so much for your time.

Craig Brown 

Rodney, thank you great being with you.

Rodney Olsen 

That early search for identity is often so vital in setting us up for success in life. And your search was difficult. Tell me about those early years for you.

Craig Brown 

I grew up in the church, my father was a minister. I have two older sisters. And the three of us always had to be on we had to make Father Brown looked at. I'm sure you've heard about preachers, kids and their reputations depending on the denomination. But I lived up to mine, it was a very difficult role. For me to play starting in my again, when I was born, all the way up through my youth and young adult life and into my adult life. Everything about our family was about making our father look good. What I saw from the pulpit was not what I experienced behind closed doors. My dad had his own demons that he had to struggle with, we saw a lot of anger. My parents marriage was never, we never really witnessed true nurturing love between the two of them. And as a youngster, when we would be blamed for a lot of things that were not our fault, our Father tended to rage out and take it out on myself and my sisters. And as a result, yeah, as we all do, when we're younger, we develop coping mechanisms and coping skills to deal with the hurt, the shame, the pain, the abandonment and I developed those early on. I mean, when the pain and the shame presented itself, and I, you know, I found that escape route. I kept that for most of my life, until I became honest and took responsibility and started dealing with that later on in life. My mother was the typical pastor's wife enable her, make her husband look good, make sure the family was on. And that was just unfair pressure put on young people that you know, like, like us, as a result that was just searching, you know, my father, and I didn't really have a relationship, I can count on one hand, the number of things he and I did father and son, and I'd have fingers leftover, he just didn't seem to be invested in my life or interested in my life. My identity was their identity, his identity, and I didn't have one till much later on in life. And as a result, I just suffered from that, instead of buckling down and proving that I could do something with my life, I took the easy route. And that is searching for, you know, something that would accept me and something I could participate in. Unfortunately, I made very, very poor decisions, and ended up in the drug world and the drug life and a life of destruction.

Rodney Olsen 

So your father is effectively teaching you about this double life, because you're seeing him one way in the church and a different way at home. And you're learning that too, because you're you're trying to deal with what's going on at home. But at church, you're the perfect little saint. So this must cause conflict right from the beginning within yourself. It did.

Craig Brown 

Oh, yeah, it's very confusing. Now, I must say, the life of the church was I loved it, dealing with, you know, with all the adults and getting the attention. I really, truly enjoyed growing up that environment. And that's one thing. But, you know, from a spiritual discipline, and finding out about, you know, God's love, Grace, mercy, I'm sure it was there, and the seeds were planted. It wasn't till much later in life, that that fruit began to bloom and I became, you know, a much different person. I just look back at that. And, you know, it's easy for me to say on this end, that I wouldn't change a thing. And I wouldn't, because it's what you know, everything I am today is a result of that pain, my deepest pain. You're right, it was trying to find that identity and trying to find that mission, trying to find that purpose. And it was hard to do in that dysfunctional environment. And I deal with this all the time in ministry, and that is when we're growing up, we think our families, the perfect family, we don't know any better, until well, afterwards, we look back and realize, Wow, man, how did I survive that? And that's essentially what I the attitude I had.

Rodney Olsen 

And I've spoken to a lot of my guests about this. In our growing up years. We just know what we know. We know that family life, and it's a matter of eventually realizing this isn't normal. So when did that Penny drop for you that The the way you grew up was not normal.

Craig Brown 

I would say it certainly wasn't in the midst of my pit of hell experience because that's I was totally in bondage to that. I would say it was well after that, when I had a major epiphany and life change, and I began to inventory my past and embrace my past and deal with my past, that I was able to kind of the scales coming off my eyes, and I realized what I experienced was not normal. As a result, I've got to process that I've got to do with my my father in his role, my mother, her role, our family role, and what that meant to me and the effect it had on me.

Rodney Olsen 

You mentioned that you ended up in the world of drugs, and you certainly did very heavily. But I'm wondering how this church boy ends up there, because it doesn't happen all at once. What was the road that took you from being this well behaved child at church and trying to do that at home, even though you weren't getting that connection you were seeking? How did you start that slippery slope towards where it ended up?

The party welcomes everybody, you don't need a membership card, you know, to show ID, you know, it just welcomes everybody in generally, it's those that have no self control, no self discipline, very lack of self worth, low self esteem, just looking to search and searching to fill the void. That is in our life. You see if our family if our family structure if our relationships, if we're if there's not that nurturing, love, support, care, identity, we're going to find it somewhere else, we will find it somewhere. For me, I had a lot of pain and a lot of loss. And I just wanted to medicate that. And as a result, entering into the drug world, it was wide open, and I walked in. It wasn't like I was like, you know, I think I'll go do drugs today. Or I think you know, I just think I'll make a mess of my life today. It's not like that. It's just a progression. And it's one step after the after another. Rodney, here's the thing about addiction, or here's, or drug use, or anything that we use to hide or medicate the pain, we make a decision to. Right, we make a decision. We get so deep into it, that we can't make a decision not to do it. It sounds very simple. But it truly It begins with that first choice. And mine multiplied and I ended up there. But here's the thing, Rodney. Yeah, I look at as I'm in the pit of hell, based on what I my youth and what I am, where I grew up, and how I grew up. Sure. I was looking around going what am I doing here? What am I How did I end up here. But at the same time, it's so engrained in my life and says, and has such a bondage on my life, that I knew no better. And I just continued on that lifestyle until I got to that defining moment in my life where I realized that I can't do this anymore.

Rodney Olsen 

And of course, it's not just drugs that can hold us down. There's a whole range of issues. And I want to talk about some of those in a little while too. But you didn't just get involved in drugs in in taking them but you went a lot further into that drug culture, didn't you?

I did. I started drinking in high school just to parties and things like that. And right now is a really good athlete. I should have played college basketball, but I had very little or low self confidence. Everybody else was telling me how good I was. But I didn't believe it. And I really didn't have any support from home. I can count on maybe after four years of playing varsity basketball. My parents, I think came to two games. I mean, I just didn't I had nothing at home. So I should have I should have gone on to play college basketball, but I didn't. But I graduated from high school and I went to college. And it was at college where here's the thing, Rodney, when we're suffering in that family environment, we cannot wait to get out. We cannot wait to be set free. And I did I walked out of the house and I went off to that campus and I rarely went to class I drank I got involved and you know, just that lifestyle. I dropped out of college and came back home. And I started working and the bar business bar and restaurant. And I took a job at a bar in Washington DC and unbeknownst to me, it was owned by the largest cocaine dealer on the east coast  and he was working that drug trade out of that establishment as a 19 or 20 year old Rodney, I've died and gone to heaven. This is just amazing. Cocaine I'm sure you're aware, and the 80s in Washington, DC and all throughout the area and and the country for that matter. Cocaine was everywhere dominated every party scene is dominated every scene where alcohol and everything else is involved, and everybody had it. I wasn't a heavy user before then. But I sure was once I got there. And then I did low level drunk stuff on on the side and stuff like that. His drug business, that was just a major operation, all the who's who would come into this establishment, there was music people, local television, people, athletes, when you have no direction, or mission or purpose in life, and your whole life is the party was just in that in a place. And I operated in that environment. For years. That whole lifestyle dominated my life. And again, as I mentioned earlier, and as you referenced, Rodney, I'm looking, I'm in the middle of this mess, this just pit of hell. And I'm just, you know, I'm asking, I'm partying, but at the same time, I'm saying, How in the world that I get here, because I was in such depression, darkness, denial, pain, shame, guilt, and I just medicated it. I just kept medicating it instead, and I hid.

Rodney Olsen 

How was it that you actually came to the point where you decided I'm not going to try and medicate anymore? This is not where life should be going.

Craig Brown 

At that time, I did exactly what was the title of my book, stop hiding, start healing. I got to a point, Rodney, and the first chapter of my book is when the pain is greater than your fear. My pain level was at such an elevated level. Again, it was around 1985, I had this epiphany. And here's the kicker of it. From a spiritual standpoint, what we don't realize is that God's hand is on us at all times, at all times. And I didn't realize it at the time, even though I grew up at the church, because I had no relationship with God I, I was so far from it. The pain in my life was so great that I got to a point where I was no longer afraid to make some life changes. And I said to myself, Craig, you're either going to end up dead, Rodney, I had car accidents, I was in the hospital for throwing up blood, you would have thought one of these situations would have gotten my attention. And it didn't. But it led up to this defining moment, where all of that was multiplied. And the pain level was so great, that I realized that if I didn't stop, I was going to end up dead, or continue on this life of destruction, depression, and darkness. And I just made a decision to extricate myself from that pit of hell, from using drugs and alcohol to medicate my pain. And over the course of weeks and months, I was able to stop using drugs and stop drinking. You know, as they say, in recovery, I got clean, I got sober. And my whole life began to change, everything began to change. Honestly, honesty crept in, responsibility crept in. And I was able to change that pit of hell lifestyle, and enter into a period of my life, where I was able to live a healthier lifestyle. But I was still miserable.

Rodney Olsen 

So it started with a decision. And we need to start here with that decision. But I imagine for people who have an addiction of some sort, whatever it may be, it's very hard for you to make a decision and then to hold to it, because the addiction keeps calling to you and dragging you back in all the time.

Craig Brown 

Yes, yes. Now, I've invested 22 years of my life, serving in Christ centered recovery, helping people and serving and caring for people who experienced or are experiencing exactly what I went through. And it is difficult, but here's the thing. It can happen in your life. Those who are struggling, those who are dealing with addiction, those who are dealing with pornography, shame, guilt, drugs, alcohol, food, codependency, divorce, abortion, whatever it is, that is wreaking havoc on your life, and causing that pain and that shame and that guilt. The good news is You can be set free, when the pain is greater than your fear. folks that are dealing with struggles and issues and life struggles, it's hard to make that decision, it's hard to step out and admit, it's hard to step out and be honest about the struggle because of a number of different things. One, embarrassment, the shame. I mentioned shame a lot, Rodney, because shame comes from the parallel. And it is meant to keep really good people from finding the resources to get well and be set free. Shame is number one, guilt and pain and all the other categories, all the other issues and struggles are there as well. But shame is number one. If the person can get to the point where that pain is greater than the fear, that shame will begin to lessen. They'll enter into an environment where you find safe people, you find people you trust, because people that struggle generally have dysfunctional people, surrounding them, and people that are trying to fix them. And that's not healthy. And it's not what they need. They need people with empathy, people that will listen, people that have been to the pit of hell and back that are there to care for them. Now that can be in a number of different forums, Rodney, whether it's rehab or Christ centered recovery or recovery or AA, find that place where people understand you. And that'll be your first step, you have to admit, first, this My life is unmanageable. And I cannot do this anymore. And I've got to be set free. And that's the defining moment that happened in my life. And it can be the defining moment for your listeners as well.

Rodney Olsen 

I'm really interested in you coming back to Faith. Because in your early years, your experience of faith was that you live one way in front of people and a different way behind the scenes. And you must have had those doubts that can this even be real, because my dad's a minister, he's meant to have it all together when it comes to these things of faith. And yet, I don't experience that. So how did your walk back to Faith actually happen?

I'm never Rodney going to discount my experience in the church at my youth, because the Bible is very clear that seeds are planted. And they may sit there for a very long time, before they come to life. Even though I didn't take it in, even though I didn't comprehend it. The denomination I grew up in, it was really tradition. It was more, you know, tradition in the prayer book, this and that. I never ever experienced or learned about a personal relationship with God through Jesus, his son, nothing was really explained to me about that the Bible tells us the only way to the Father is through Jesus, his son. I never knew anything about that, you know, I operated in that church environment, you know, at a very young age. And I do I believe the seeds were planted. As I mentioned earlier, God's hand is on all of us. It's there. And it's a matter of us opening up our heart and saying, God, come in and take over my life, heal me and set me free. And that's essentially what I did. But it wasn't until I was clean for about six or seven years. I hadn't been using drugs I hadn't been drinking. But as I mentioned, I was still miserable. There's a couple of defining moments that I've, I've shared, but the the defining moment was when I received that phone call. My sister called and said, dad's dying, and we need to get to the hospital. Here's a man that I had very little relationship. Now. I loved him. He's my dad. Right? But I had a very challenging relationship with Him. And we weren't the closest. So I am led to his bedside in the intensive care unit, and my father is dying. Here I am. I've been in the pinna, hell, I've made nothing of my life. I felt like a complete failure. And I'm standing there and my whole life came right before my eyes, and I'm looking at my dad struggling to breathe. And I'm sitting here as his son, and I've done nothing with my life. And it just was a reminder to me of how powerless I am and what a failure were the decisions I've made in my life. That led me up to that day. And Rodney that The defining moment in my life, and that is this, when the pain is greater than your fear, you have an opportunity to be set free and change. I realized that here, this man is going to die. And neither of us were able to have the relationship that I longed for. And so the very next day, Rodney, I just cried out to God, I say, God, I've heard of you, I know what you can do. Because I've heard about the testimonies of what you've done in people's lives. I need you to come in and take over my life, because my pain is greater than my fear, I am miserable, take over my life, come in and set me free. From everything I've done in my life, forgive me. And Rodney, it was a miraculous experience, because that lasted for about an hour. And then when I got up, after crying out and praying, which I'd never been instructed to do, and know me, nobody told me how, my life was completely different from that second.

Rodney Olsen 

Tell me how it became different. What was that feeling? Because a lot of people will say that they come to that point of accepting Christ and they don't necessarily feel different, but they know that something has changed. And yet other people have an experience by the sounds of it like you have had where there is something physically that is happening, there is something tangible, tell me about that.

The Bible is very clear about when you do you say, God, Jesus, come into my life and take over my life. Now, again, it you've heard it, it's been shared many different ways. Be my Lord and Savior, take over be your lead my life Forgive me, offering forgiveness, confessing. It's very simple. It's so simple. But we make it so complicated. You know, the Bible is very clear, Jesus, come, come set me free. Come take over my life. Be Lord over my life, my pain, my shame, my guilt, my past, my purpose, my mission, all of it, Lord, take it and he did. And so yes, for me, a lot of people think that they make that decision, oh, life's just great. Now, you have to begin to do the work. And what does that mean? It just means you now have the power, the same power that rose Jesus from the grave, you have now received, and it's called the Holy Spirit. So the Spirit begins to live in your soul. The spirit is in your life, your heart, and he wanted to take over your mind. For me. It was miraculous. When I stood up after that hour. My whole perspective on life changed the burden, Rodney, the burden of the pit of hell drug life, the pit of hell pain, the youth of abandonment, the use of blame and shame, everything the burden was lifted immediately. It was miraculous, I don't have enough time to be your guest today to share how deep my pain was. Okay? That was absolutely instantaneous. I, at that moment, began to be honest with myself, I began to confess everything that I had, and believe me, Rodney, this is not a one way thing, where I'm the victim, I was not a victim. I made poor decisions and poor choices. Okay, that led me to where I was, I began to be honest with myself. I then devoured scripture, that day was when my recovery started. And that's when I began to immerse myself in every single principle that God has in this life manual called a Bible, and I apply them to my life. I've been doing that for now, Rodney, for 28 years, my life continues to be on track. Now, I've had some major challenges. Since that day, I've had major, major challenges that I've had to work through that day. But the difference is, I have a power and a strength and a different mindset to get me through it now, versus what I had in the old me.

Rodney Olsen 

And what I find interesting is that you say at this stage, you had stopped taking drugs for quite some years. And so you're completely clean for some years, but still miserable. And you say this is the day that your recovery started, the world will often see recovery as being free of drugs. And yet we know that that's not always the case in your recovery started on this day on wondering how soon after you were set free and started that recovering, did you start helping others?

Let me touch on that for a minute Rodney, and that's recovery versus Christ centered recovery, there is a difference. And that is this Rodney recovery began, like AA began back in the 1930s 40s. And it was faith based, they made no apology for the fact that God has a higher power. Now that's been watered down some over the years. But Rodney, there's only one that can fix, he'll change and restore. And that is the Lord God the Father, he's the only one that is able to do that in our life. And so a lot of people enter into recovery with a myopic track to get clean and sober. And that's good. Now there's nothing that that's absolutely should be the goal. But it's not. The end goal is see sobriety and abstinence are the byproduct of doing the work. That's recovery. Now the difference between recovery and Christ centered recovery, and that is this. And this is where relapse, this happens. Often slips happen, often it happens in in all life. Don't get me wrong. Oftentimes, people get into recovery to get clean and sober. And that's but they neglect the catalyst for what got them there. The pain, the shame, the guilt, the the abandonment, the abuse, maybe there was trauma, or physical sexual abuse, emotional abuse that they experienced. And yes, they're clean and sober. But yet, they're still miserable. And that's what happened to me. I was seven years out, great, I was off, no drugs, no drinking of any kind. I was living a healthy lifestyle, but there was something missing. And I was still miserable. So I get to the place where I realized, why am I still miserable? Well, in recovery, it's all about especially Christ centered recovery, it's all going back to discover the root of my sadness, the root of my grief, my shame, my guilt, my pain. And the Bible's very, very clear about that in Scripture, search my heart of God, change my mind, Oh, God. And when you change the mind and the thinking, and then it relates to the heart and healing the heart, you can be on a track of recovery, sobriety, abstinence, and what I call freedom, and be set free, and avoids slips relapse, when you have worked the steps and the principles and apply the principles to your life. And the other thing about recovery is, it's all about developing self awareness. And that's what recovery is all about self awareness, but also not avoiding the warning signs. And also being able to identify the triggers in your life. All of us are triggered every single day, they're everywhere, right. And for people in recovery, you've got to know what they are. If you're struggling with pornography, well, you got you know very well that if you click on that ad, or click on that link, or click it, that's a trigger, that's going to take you that's going to take you right back if you're not careful, or I can just have one drink, or I can just smoke that dope or whatever, you've got to be extremely mindful of your warning signs and triggers in your life. And you're able to do that in recovery, recovery, especially Christ centered recovery is able to uncover, pull back the layers, deal with the things deal with the challenges and the painful things in our life. And once you're able to embrace that and do that, you have a guide and a power, and God that's able to help you.

Rodney Olsen 

And you've been helping other people to break free from a whole range of issues. You've touched on a few there. It's not just drugs, as you say. There's a whole range of issues that we can be freed from that cause pain, and misery and especially shame within our lives. Tell me, what's the experience, like when you see someone else come out the other side and be released and become free from whatever it is that's been holding them?

Craig Brown  

Oh Rodney, it's amazing. I've been serving for 22 years and Christ centered recovery. Our ministry has helped 1000s of people. And Rodney there are 1000s of testimonies of people. And now people that come to our ministry. They're either Christian believers and non believers or they're, you know, all different walks of life. It's not that you have to have to subscribe to that. I mean, it's totally your choice. God gave us a choice accept me or don't you know, it's dope. Yeah, it's your choice. But anybody can come all are welcome. All are loved unconditionally, all are supported and accepted for who they are, no matter who they are. And they come in there and they sit in that environment where the Scripture and the gospel is being shared and the 12 steps of recovery. It's just absolutely powerful to see someone come in. First of all, it takes a ton of courage, Rodney for some of the steps into a Recovery Environment. That's where I say if the pain is greater than your fear of being known, if the pain is greater than your fear of embarrassment, you're ready to come in. And a lot of people walk through that door with a lot of courage on that first night. And, and I'm a firm believer that healing takes place, and circles. And we offer a lot of small groups, where men can be with other men and women can be with other women, in a safe environment, where nothing, there's no condemnation, what is shared there stays there, fellowship is developed, relationships are developed, accountability is established. And healing begins to take place over weeks and the coming months. So I see Rodney firsthand, the life change, and just going from dysfunction, going from brokenness, to wholeness and brokenness, to happiness. And it's just, it's just what's keep it keeps me going. And it's, it's wonderful to see people be set free, and marriages heal relationships with show their kids healed, relationships, restored, amends being made, hearts being healed, it's just miraculous. It's wonderful to see. And it, it's what keeps me going,

Rodney Olsen 

I'm sure that there are people that are going through their own moments of hell, who are thinking, I wish I could be a part of a group like that. But obviously, we're talking to people all around the world. How do we actually find a group like that for ourselves? If, if we're in that situation, how do we find that group of loving people to surround ourselves with to go through this kind of Christ centered recovery,

Our society, as you know, Rodney, it doesn't take it takes seconds to go to Google or some other search engine and put in Christ centered recovery in the search bar, or recovery near me or find a recovery meeting. Now, just a word of caution. Again, I can only speak for the ministry I've been a part of, and I am confident that we're recovery, your shared recovery is done to help others and the motivation is to help other people. But I also tell people to have a really good filter, and very good discernment as to where you are going to go. First of all, there's no perfect church, and there's no perfect environment. But there are environments and churches that have really good structure that have really good guidelines and accountability, and have a really good platform and an offering and a place and a beacon of hope. I don't know if you're familiar with Celebrate Recovery. But that's the ministry that we started 22 years ago at our church and the ministry we've been a part of, and there are celebrate recoveries all over the world. And all you could all you need to do is go on the website, and you can put in Celebrate Recovery, and your listeners could find one, hopefully near them. There's another organization I'm really support. And that's new life ministries, new life ministries, and that's led by Steve Arterburn, a pioneer in Christ centered recovery here in the United States. And he has ministries and networks all over the world as well, your local church or you know, again, a meetings, other meetings that could be that are nearby, it's taking that first step. And you may have to visit a few places, your listeners may have to visit a few places to find that there may be state offerings or resources or county resources or other resources. But there's also Christian counselors and therapists that are available as well. It's about research. And but here's the thing, Rodney, I am more than happy to be a resource for your listeners, if they have any questions whatsoever. They have an open invitation to reach out to me through email or on my Facebook page to send me a direct message or through your website if you'd like it, I would be more than happy and honored to help anybody that was searching, if I could be of a resource to them.

Rodney Olsen 

And of course, it brings us full circle to talking about your book as well. Stop Hiding, Start Healing and we're not just here to sell a book. But when you have a resource like that that's available that is going to help to bring healing. We can't help but recommend it to people and so where can people find this book that you've written.

One, you just go to Amazon in the search bar put in Stop Hiding, Start Healing. Put in Craig Brown, Stop Hiding Start Healing  so you can go directly to Amazon or you can go to my website, stophidingstarthealingbook.com, you can purchase the book at either of those.

Rodney Olsen 

I know, we've mainly been talking to people who may be going through their own difficulty, their own shame. But I'm also aware that there will be people listening right now who have loved ones who are going through difficult times, whether it be addiction or whatever it might be. How do we actually come alongside those that we love? When they're not ready to make the step? How do we love them? How do we bring them to that point?

Craig Brown 

That's a great question. No, I'm so glad you brought that up. Because it's one of the areas of my ministry that brings most heartbreak at times, because you look in the eyes of a mother or father, or a spouse, or a family member or a friend, and you just see the sadness and the grief, because they have tried and tried and tried to get their loved one to get help. But Rodney, it's so important to realize, and parents especially and family members, you must realize that it's not your fault, that that individual who is struggling, made a decision on their own, to put their life in that situation. So many times parents want to take that role of a rescuer. First of all, we have to admit that person is dealing with a very, very troubling lifestyle. And as much as we want to rescue because as parents or loved ones, we all want to rescue, we all want to help. And unfortunately, the hardest part, you have to allow that person to suffer, you have to allow them to get to the point where they realize that their pain is greater than their fear, and they have to get out, or their life is completely unmanageable. And they have to get help, that can be done in a number of different ways. There are organizations and other resources that can help families with intervention. And oftentimes, it takes the average person that is struggling to be confronted something like 57 times before they get agree to go get help. It's just an arduous process for family members and loved ones to help someone that struggling. A lot of times I have to tell people just to get out of the way, get out of the way. They're on a track, right now they are so in denial, they won't listen to anybody. They'll blame family, they'll blame everybody, for their troubles I did years ago, families need to find the right resources that are available. But it's up to that person to have to make the decision to want to go get help. If they don't think they need help. There's nothing anyone can do other than pray for them, support them, encourage them, and be there for them. until they get to that point where they realize they have to go get well.

Rodney Olsen 

We're a long way away from that young boy who had such a difficult lifestyle growing up and that difficult relationship with his father. What is life really like for you now for you and for your family? What is your relationship like with your own sons?

Craig Brown 

That's a great question. Great, great question. First of all, I've got an amazing wife, we are will be celebrating 28 years of marriage next month. I'm so grateful that I got over that I extricate myself from that total mess of a life before I met my wife and I didn't bring it into the marriage or into my family. We have three sons that are absolutely amazing. I made it a point early on that my relationship with them would be in stark contrast to what I experienced myself with my dad. But I have been brutally honest with my sons. I shared with them. my testimony I shared with them, the struggles that I went through, I shared with them. My being brutally transparent, not sharing details per se, but sharing my pain, shame, guilt, everything that I went through as a catalyst to be there for them as their mentor and their guide and their father who absolutely adores them, who always has their back. You know, I am there to support them in every endeavor. I'm also there to hold them accountable and to be a spiritual leader for them. You know that it started with them. My role as a spiritual leader and I been there for that, Rodney, I still have a bunch of defects I continue to work on, I still, you know, continue in my own recovery, I still continue to work extremely hard to getting better at who I am. And as a result, they know my defects and they're very and, you know, I am not perfect as an I've told them that my dad apologized to me once in my entire life. Like I've lost count of the number of times where I have had to confess, or share or ask forgiveness from my son's for my attitude or approach or what have you. But like for me, right now I am in an amazing season of life, Rodney, and it's all due to the grace of God, it truly, truly is. If you knew me, back then Rodney, and saw me today, you would be absolutely amazed. It's such a difference that the Lord has made in my life and will continue until I'm all used up to care, be there love guide others that have been where I've been. And I'll do that until the last day,

Rodney Olsen 

Craig, what I love about your story is that it's not just your story. But it's the story of 1000s that you've been able to help with God's help, obviously. And that's part of the story that is in Stop Hiding Start Healing  the book that you've written, and that's going to be a help for many, many more people, I'm sure it's going to be a help for those who are going through their own difficulties as well as those who love those who are caught in addiction or, or whatever it may be. So if people want to get a hold of that you mentioned before where they can find it, I will put links in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet, so that people can find the book, but also connect with you, Craig, it has been a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for being so open and honest in sharing your story.

Craig Brown 

Rodney, thank you, I just want to commend you. You have a wonderful, wonderful platform. And it's such a beacon of hope to others. And I just pray the Lord's blessings over you and your mission and purpose and all you're doing to help others that may be struggling. And I just encourage your listeners if they are in a tough place in their life, to speak out. Find the right help. And again, allow the Lord in should you so choose to set you free. Thank you my friend. I really enjoyed being with you today. Thank you

Emily Olsen 

Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net

Where is God when trouble strikes? Where is he when things go horribly wrong? How can a God of love allow the suffering that many of us face? Sarah Nelson has had to seek those answers for herself and her family. Out of that experience, she's written the devotional book titled, A Perfect Storm. Sarah is today’s guest on Bleeding Daylight.

https://sarahnelsonblog.com/

https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Storm-Devotions-During-Crisis/dp/B08VY76WXF

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.millernelson

https://twitter.com/SarahNelsonBlog

https://www.instagram.com/sarahnelsonblog

(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)

Emily Olsen 

Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen

Thank you for your company. You can follow Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts and never miss an episode. Please encourage others by sharing Bleeding Daylight episodes through our social media channels.

What do you do when the busyness of normal family life is shattered by a medical emergency that threatens to change your world forever? That’s the story of today’s guest. We’ll meet her in a moment. 

It's one of the oldest questions ever asked, where is God when trouble strikes? Where is he when things go horribly wrong? How can a God of love allow the suffering that many of us face? Today's guest has had to seek those answers for herself and her family. Out of that experience, she's written the devotional book titled, A Perfect Storm. It's my very great honor to welcome Sarah Nelson to Bleeding Daylight. Thanks for your time.

Sarah Nelson 

Thank you so much for having me.

Rodney Olsen 

We're going to explore a very real crisis that you faced as a family but before that tell me what was life like for you and your family before everything suddenly changed.

Sarah Nelson 

It was fairly normal. We were a family with three young children ages seven, five and two. So I was very busy. I was managing a business, as well as managing my children. And we had just moved across country. So we were busy, but things were kind of getting back to what I call a normal routine after having three children. So anyone who has young children right now knows what that normal balancing act looks like but my children were healthy, we were healthy. We had really no medical issues that we knew of, and everything was going really well,

Rodney Olsen 

Something more than just one of those natural ups and downs happened for you. Maybe you can take us through that.

Sarah Nelson 

Sure. We were on a family ski trip. It was the first time we were skiing as a family of five in Park City, Utah, beautiful place, and the second day that we were there, I noticed changes in my daughter, we rushed her into the hospital and we realized that our two year old baby girl who was completely healthy, no pre existing conditions was suffering from a stroke on the left side of her brain. And she quickly debilitated and lost the use of her right side of her body and was paralyzed on her right side and lost her ability to speak. And we were in the hospital for two weeks in Salt Lake City. She was in a rehabilitation hospital for over a month in Dallas, and our lives were turned upside down.

Rodney Olsen 

I can imagine and I'm wondering about the doctors at the time when they are looking for what is causing these differences in your daughter did their minds immediately go toward a stroke? This is something that we would normally imagine happening in someone much older.

Actually they did. They were able to assess her quickly and identify what was happening right away. That morning. I actually saw a difference in her face. When she smiled. She only smiled a half smile. Later that afternoon. She was not responding to me are talking back to me as she did. Fortunately, she was a chatty two year old. So I noticed something that was off. And then by the time we got her into the hospital, the doctor showed me that her grip on her right hand was weakening. And she was dipping her leg on her right side was dipping as she walked. And the doctor looked at me right away in the pediatric emergency room. And he said, I'm sorry, but I fear your daughter is having a stroke. And immediately, they went into testing, CAT scans, MRIs, and they were able to identify it right away.

Rodney Olsen 

What goes through your mind in a time like this? A perfectly healthy two year old, you've got two other children that are there with you on the holiday that need to be taken care of at the same time. What goes through your mind?

The first thing we thought was we didn't know a two year old who is completely healthy could suffer from a stroke. It's typically something you hear about an elderly people as well as maybe here and there. Sometimes you hear of someone who is in their 30s or 40s. But never a child. It's not something that my husband and I had heard of before. There's really sort of this vacuum in your mind because you're trying to process the information that you're being given. It takes a while to try to come to grips with what is actually taking place.

Rodney Olsen 

And how does that balance work in your mind? You're obviously concerned for the here and now and what's going to happen to this beautiful child of yours. Was there a balance between that and then wondering what is the long term prognosis, what does this mean long term?

Yes, in fact, I was thinking that in the emergency room as they whisked her away to do an MRI, and I was standing in the hallway, realizing that she may never walk again. I might have to use sign language. There were no guarantees. What we learned was every stroke is different and every patient recovery is different. And we were watching her abilities deteriorate in front of our eyes and I imagined her possibly in a wheelchair for the rest of her life or walking with a walker. I had no idea moving forward what our life was going to look like the rug of normality literally had been pulled out from under us and are normal had completely changed?

Rodney Olsen 

When did you start to get a grip on what might actually happen? When the doctor start giving you a prognosis for what's going to happen toward the future?

Well, they gave us a little bit of insight, like I said, in the emergency room, but once she was in the pediatric, ICU Intensive Care Unit, they began to lay out the issues that we may face in the hospital there for the two weeks, while we were in Salt Lake City. And again, they told us that she would never fully recover 100% of what she lost. And they could give no guarantees if she would ever walk or talk again, they said, once again, children have a good chance of recovery, because the neurons in their brain are growing so quickly. But they could give no guarantees. And he said, a full recovery for a child like this would be to regain up to 80% of what they lost. And that a true full recovery was not possible.

Rodney Olsen 

So it's difficult enough for you and your husband to deal with this. But how did you talk about it with the other two children?

Well, my husband did a great job. As I mentioned, we were skiing, unfortunately, we were with family. And so I stayed with our daughter Adalee in the hospital, he helped manage the other two children and drove back and forth to the lodge to take care of them to talk to them. And we were just very honest and open to let them know what was going on. So by the time they were able to come to the hospital to visit her, they accepted her differences. We just told them that we weren't sure we prepare them that she was moving around in a wheelchair in the hospital. And they loved her and they embraced her and it was very sweet to watch them just accept her for the condition that she was in.

Rodney Olsen 

And what about the wider family that you were there with at the time and, and obviously other family members in different places? What was their response to this terrible tragedy happening within your family,

Everyone was in complete shock and because we were 1,000 miles away, we live in Texas. My family is in Texas, my husband's family was in Houston at the time. They were in shock. And they were in dismay, because they couldn't come up to help us because there were only a certain number of people who could be up there in the hospital. And it was hard ache for them because they couldn't come to help. But what they did was they began to pray for us and pray for our daughter and they called on their churches and their prayer groups and their friends to start praying for us and for our daughter  and we began to have many, many people praying on our behalf and praying for her recovery.

Rodney Olsen 

We often hear at times like this, where something happens to people of faith, that there are such a network of churches that suddenly get the message and start to pray. Were you aware of that happening around you?

I was at the time I was aware of it. We had our home church in Waco, Texas praying for us. My parents had their churches in Dallas and Houston, praying for us as well and I have family in Illinois, Indiana, California. They reached out to their prayer groups and their churches and they began to pray in a way where people were praying for our daughter who didn't even know her and we ended up having thousands of people praying on her behalf. And I call it our army of prayer warriors because when we were in the hospital, we felt those prayers sustain us.

Rodney Olsen 

You're feeling that sustaining power of prayer as you're going through this. But there must have been those doubts, there must have been some of those questions that I mentioned in the introduction of how can God allow these? How did you start to process that I was

Standing in the pediatric ICU, the doctors had just given me the rundown. And the prognosis of what I mentioned earlier that she would not have a true full recovery that she would only be able to regain up to 80% of what she lost. And my husband had was not there yet that morning, because he was taking care of the children. I was by myself standing over her as she laid there asleep in her hospital bed. And I just prayed. I said, Lord, I'm willing to accept your will for her life. But right now, I pray for a full recovery over my daughter. I know you have the power to do that. I said so Lord, I pray that she will talk. I pray that she will walk. I pray she will run. And I gave her to you right now. And I pray that she will be a normal kid and have a normal life. And I just handed off to the Lord because I knew that only he could do what I was asking. And then I had to focus on taking care of her. Whatever that look like if I had to take care of her, because she was in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. That was my mission to do that at the time. And I felt that resolve as a parent, but I did have to hand it off to the Lord. And that was the first step in just moving forward in what was to come.

Rodney Olsen 

And what was to come from that point on, what were the things that then started to lay out in front of you,

Sarah Nelson 

As people were praying for us, her process of recovery begin to stabilize. So we saw her stabilize, she began to learn to sit up again, it was as if she were a six month old trying to go through therapy. For two weeks, we walked through the process of checking all of the different things that may have gone wrong. Fortunately, everything checked out well. And the doctors called her situation a perfect storm. And where it's all these components coming together, they couldn't necessarily find the cause of the stroke. But it could have been different components coming together at just the right time to cause this crisis. And so we took that as good news, because that meant that there wasn't a blood disease or an organ issue. And so we just continue to move forward. And then once she was admitted into the rehabilitation center in Dallas, where she was an inpatient for a month, where she did intensive therapy. Her process was out of the gate a jumpstart. We were there one day, and she went from not being able to walk, got up in her first therapy session and began to run. I actually had to step out to go to the doctor during that time. And my parents were there because they were helping me Unfortunately, it was in my hometown of Dallas. So they were able to go with the to the therapy session with her I had come down with strep throat, and had to go to a different doctor while she was in her therapy session, and I left with my dad carrying her down the hospital hallway to begin her first therapy session physical therapy session to strengthen her leg. My goal at the time, was that by the time we left the inpatient rehabilitation center, I at least wanted to and hoped it to be able to stabilize her on a walker, so that she can begin the journey of walking again. So as I watched my dad carry her down the hallway, I went to the doctor was treated, came back two hours later, my dad had put it on video so that I have it on video to watch. But my daughter was standing next to my father and had begun to run back and forth during therapy. And I knew in that moment that God had given her a miracle a jumpstart in healing. And her stay in the rehabilitation center was only four weeks her original, estimated stay was eight to 12 weeks. But the doctors didn't know what to do with her they had never, or they acted as if they had never seen a child recover so quickly. And so they could only justify her being an inpatient for a month. And during that time, she ran, she got occupational therapy for her arm, she had speech therapy. And by the time she left that hospital, she was able to talk, walk and run and live life as a normal child.

Rodney Olsen 

It's an absolutely remarkable turnaround. And no doubt people of faith would say, well, it's largely down to the fact that 1000s of people at this stage are praying for this girl, some who, as you say, don't even know her. There's a remarkable turnaround. But was that the the completion of the therapy once she got home? Was there an ongoing therapy that she needed to be part of?

Yes, when we got home, she underwent two and a half years, almost three years of occupational therapy and physical therapy. And for her right arm, her right leg, her hands, just to continue to build the strength and the right side of her body. And so that was a daily process multiple times a week, our schedule was very different from our schedule beforehand. But in that process of recovery, it was amazing to watch how God makes our bodies in this incredible, remarkable way to be able to recover things that we lose and how we exercise our mind and our body, especially for a child because they're growing so quickly. I do believe that God designed our bodies to be able to bounce back and which is kind of another form of healing.

Rodney Olsen 

So you have this two year old at the time who has been through this trauma. This was back in 2014. where many years on from there now. How is she these days?

She's great. She's a third grader. She's nine years old. She's the life of the party. She is a true joy. Very social, has lots of friends, and she gets to live a normal life. This year, we have realized there are some reading issues that we have to address. But you would never know, looking at her that she has been through anything like she has been through.

Rodney Olsen 

Does she have any recollection of those early days? I mean, most of us would not remember what we were doing when we were two years old. But is there any recollection of that? Or is it more the therapy that came after that went on for a couple of years?

She doesn't remember having a stroke or being in the hospital. Although it was very traumatic for her so for a while, she got upset when we had to go to the hospital for checkups. But she really remembers therapy, you know, her whole preschool years, were just therapy three times a week. And so she remembers that she talks about her situation matter of factly, because that's what therapists do. Each day you have therapy, they talk to you about what you're doing well, and what we need to work on. She takes a daily aspirin. So she remembers how to take care of herself in ways that maybe other people don't have to do. And she's actually very responsible about it, because that's all she's known. But we try to be very upbeat, and Matter of fact, but not to dwell on it.

Rodney Olsen 

So there's this amazing turnaround, and you've got your your beautiful daughter back. But of course, there are many people that go through all sorts of crises that it doesn't turn out so well. And you decided that you wanted to speak for those people as well. And so you've written this devotional book, tell me when did the thought of this idea come to you?

Well, I began writing updates on a CaringBridge blog while she was in rehabilitation in the hospital, because we knew there were so many people praying for us, that I wanted to start updating them on the progress she was making. I felt a responsibility very, very early on that that was meant to be shared and so I was updating everyone on this blog, because I wanted them to know, we see your prayers being answered, this is God working, and he is teaching us lessons in this process. And I began to feel the responsibility of that. During that time. You know, I would never think that I can speak for someone whose child has not recovered or for someone who's lost a child. But during that time, I began to feel led to share a testimony based on Psalm 118:24. This is the day the Lord has made, I will rejoice and be glad in it, about how God had prepared me for this moment to deal with this crisis. And initially, I did not want to share it. But God gave me a sign to share it. I prayed over that. I released it on the blog, I had no idea why he wanted me to share this testimony. And when I got home, a friend of mine who I'd had known was pregnant with her fourth child in December, walked up to me. I was back home. I'd seen her for the first time I had no idea what was going on back home because I had just been in this complete vacuum during the time and I saw she was in her third trimester. I walked up to her. She walked up to me. I said, Oh, Shelly, how are you doing? I'm so excited to see you. What are you having? And she looked at me and she said, Well, I'm having a girl, but she's not going to live. And my heart broke. Here. I had just come out of the hospital where my child had lived, I had no words to offer her. I just looked at her. And I said I'm so sorry. And I felt so ill equipped to say anything that could be of hope or encouragement, I felt so ill equipped. And she looked at me and she said, Sarah, I read your blog on Psalm 118:24. For a while at least it was in the hospital. And it ministered to me and she said God changed my perspective through your situation. And I was stunned, totally stunned, and humbled because I knew that that did not come from me that came from the Holy Spirit. And part of this journey as we have began to write things down. It, it came to the fact that I did feel we were supposed to write this in devotional format, and Shelley is actually a guest featured in this devotional in devotionals, 24 and 25. And she shares her story. And it really is able to minister to those who have lost a child or lost a loved one during a crisis. And it's about how God cares for the brokenhearted and how he ministers to those who have lost.

Rodney Olsen 

I sometimes feel that when we're asking those deeper questions about why things happen, we need to keep it in the perspective that this life isn't all there is. Is that something that really came home to you during this time?

Yes, it came home to me as I was standing in the emergency room, contemplating on the fact that my daughter may never walk or talk again. And as I was standing there, I would look down this dark corridor behind me, I could hear the noise of the doctors and my husband Mark talking through the scenarios, talking through the test and the blood work. And I just had a moment to stop and pause. And I, as I stood there, I felt the Lord speak to me, because the rug of normality, like I had said, had been pulled out from under us, and I was envisioning of the possibility of what life may look like. And I felt the Lord stop me. And I felt his presence. And I felt him say, Sarah, I am Here I am God, I am constant, I will never leave you nor forsake you. And he spoke so many lessons to me in that moment, and I felt his piece kind of fall over my shoulders as if he was draping a cloak around my shoulders. And it helped the ball of stress in my stomach, it didn't make it go away. Because as a mother, I don't believe it's made to go away. But it did sustain the stress that I felt. In that moment, I realized how temporary this life is, the her body may be broken. But how quickly that would pass because I knew that one day, in eternity, she would be whole again. And in that moment, he gave me such an eternal perspective, a perspective that this life goes by so fast, and that our focus should be on eternal purpose.

Rodney Olsen 

It's an interesting perspective to bring out of this. And we mentioned at the start how you had this so called normal life of running after three active children, and you were on this holiday. And that seemed to be life as normal. I'm wondering how much life has normal has changed? What are the different perspectives that God has now brought to bear? What are the differences in your normal today,

We have a greater understanding of our relationship with the Lord and how he interacts with us in our crisis in our in our darkest circumstances. But we are also very aware of, of what people are going through with children who are in the hospital, who are suffering from disease, who are suffering from this kind of crisis, you have a greater understanding, a greater depth of emotional awareness of what those people are feeling and going through. And we've been able to minister and reach out to people who are going through similar circumstances. And my heart also has a greater understanding for children who are in wheelchairs for children who are stabilized on walkers, for parents who have a special needs child. And even though my daughter is not categorized as a special needs child, I've watched and been so close in the hospital, and understand the day to day schedule and demands that they have on their life. And so it opened our eyes to deeper feeling deeper understanding and in that we've been able to turn around and reach out and minister to those going through similar situations.

Rodney Olsen 

Have you had a response from some of the people that have read it who are going through those sorts of difficult times?

Yes, I have. It's the response has been incredible. People can identify even if they have a different circumstance, people can identify going through pain and sadness and crisis, because unfortunately, that is a part of life. And so when people see how God interacts in a very tangible way, in a very practical way, it really helps them to apply scripture to their own lives. And the scripture that I actually used in this devotional is the scripture that was given to me on note cards on a three ring binder, by the people in our Sunday morning class at our church, they gifted me with this scripture, and each of the Scriptures I've included in this devotional because those are the scriptures that God use to breathe his peace and breathe the lessons of him being there for us during that time.

Rodney Olsen 

And what are some of the responses that people have made those that have had the opportunity to read through that day by day journal? What has been the response coming back? What are some of the stories that you've heard?

I think the main thing that people say is, I identify so much, because I know a child who is going through cancer, or my daughter just was diagnosed with this rare disease. That is the response that I get the most, especially people with children, people who are dealing with a family member going through cancer, even though That's different people have just related so much, just through hearing a story and understanding the pain of a loved one or the pain of a parent, the agony that a parent goes through watching that family member or loved one suffer. And so the main thing that I hear is identify so much with us. And it meant so much to me, because we're walking through a similar crisis.

Rodney Olsen 

I know that at the time, the scriptures that you had, knowing that people were praying for you, you had this real sense that God was holding you up. Have you had responses like that from some of the people that have read through the devotional that that has given them that same sort of sense that that God is walking through this with them?

Yes, in fact, one of the readers reached out to me via Facebook, and they had just lost a family member. And that family member had gone through sickness. And she just reached out to me to say, as we're walking through this grief, this journey and this devotion, and the scriptures have given us strength, to understand the reality of life, but that how God intervenes on our behalf, and he how He intercedes for us, through His Holy Spirit. And, and really, they understand how scripture comes to life, because scripture is breathed by the Holy Spirit is breathed by God. And so even if it's applied to a different scenario, or circumstance, the Holy Spirit ministers to everyone on such an individual level through that scripture, and so yes, the person who reached out to me had just lost a loved one and was able to work through their grief while reading the scriptures through this devotional.

Rodney Olsen 

I know that many people who are facing crisis, who are already people of faith would want to have something like this in their hand to help them through at this time to read those scriptures that have helped you so much. I'm wondering, have there been people who have been further away from God who have thought, I just need something that they've been able to pick up this book and start to relate to God in a different way?

Yes, in fact, I had someone recently gift, this devotional to several people who are really searching, and they're in the process of reading it, or they've heard an interview or a podcast, and they are beginning to respond and ask questions. And the first devotional is on salvation. So if there is someone who has never had a relationship with the Lord before, or maybe never even been taught about what our relationship with Christ is, we start off with the basics of salvation, to describe who Jesus is and what he offers us through His sacrifice and through His resurrection. And so yes, I am starting to see a response people asking questions, people reaching out to those who have gifted the devotional to them. And it is it is incredible, because I have just prayed over this, that whoever reads this, if they don't already know Christ, that they would come to him after reading this journey.

Rodney Olsen 

So I'm wondering if you have a copy of the book handy, and maybe there's a devotional in there that has been extra special for you? And maybe you could read us a little of what's in there today?

Absolutely. I think the one that is really the most special to me, is devotion. Three, it says God never leaves us. And the Scripture is Deuteronomy 31:6, Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of the for the Lord your God goes with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. And the reason this is so special is because this is the foundation of the purpose for this devotional. And it's the first message God laid on my heart because it's the first thing he spoke to me in this crisis to say, I am God, and I am always with you and I am constant. And regardless of what happens on this earth, I will never change. And it just talks about the story. It said, the pediatric ER doctor looked at me and said, I'm worried about your daughter, I think she is having a stroke. Immediately, doctors and nurses flooded the room and began drawing blood, poking Adelee for IVs and prepping her for a CAT scan. It was apparent at least brain had been affected and her ability to talk had been impaired while the other symptoms were progressing. Adult he was losing the ability to use the entire right side of her body as well as her ability to speak. The next step was to answer a multitude of questions in the middle of the whirlwind. I stood in the emergency room hallway looking into the dark, empty corridor. Moments earlier my daughter had been lying on the bed and the room adjacent to where I was standing. My heart felt like a heading bowling ball pressing down my chest and my stomach was a ball of knots pulling in opposite directions. Time stood still That moment I felt the Holy Spirit fall over me as I heard a voice over my head, state the Word of God, I heard the Lord say to me, I will never leave you nor forsake you, Sarah, I am here. I am God, and I am constant. And that is the thing. And the message that I want to make sure that listeners hear is that when you're going through a crisis, God wants to be there for you. And he wants you to feel his presence.

Rodney Olsen 

And that reading just took us right there into that situation. And we can start to feel some of the anguish that you're feeling. But also at the same time, there's that immediate comforter. And I wonder, if you look back to the Syrah before this incident happened, would you ever have believed that your faith would be strong enough to carry you through that you'd be where you are now and being able to minister to other people.

I don't think we can ever foresee the circumstances. The Lord had been preparing me with Psalm 118:24. For two years, I began to quote that every day, this is the day the Lord has made, I will rejoice and be glad in it. And I begin to quote it, because we had had a lot of things going on. And I just needed to make sure that I maintained a positive attitude and joy in the Lord, regardless of what happened to that day. Because sometimes the blessings even on our normal day can feel overwhelming, especially when you have three small children. But the Lord prepared me and disciplined me with that scripture so that once I was in a situation where something happened, that was a crisis. And that was something that was truly awful. The Lord helped me to remain in a perspective, where regardless of what happens, even though my daughter may never be the same, he is my joy. And it's a day that the Lord has made, and I will still rejoice that he is God, because he does not change. And that just sustained me. When that happened, you know, I looked back over the last two years of being disciplined in that scripture and thought, Wow, it's incredible how God will go before us and prepare us. And looking back, it's amazing to see how God works in that way.

Rodney Olsen 

When these large events happen in our lives, they continue to define us in a couple of ways. Sometimes, they will define us in a way that we cannot get past that. And it's going to hold us back for the rest of our lives until we're prepared to do business and bring some change. Or they can define us as a way that launches us into something else. And I see that that's what's happened for you that this has defined you to a large degree, to be someone who is continuing to minister to other people. And I guess that's the legacy that this event has taken place. Maybe you can help us to fast forward to where things are now. Explain what normal looks like in your household today.

Sarah Nelson 

Ah wellI love that question. First of all, because you're right. The purpose of this devotional is to let people know God wants to be there for you during crisis. But it's also the point. And this is where Shelley comes in. And her testimony is we can allow the Lord to minister to us, which he wants to He wants us to receive that peace and comfort. But then when we learn how to receive that, there are things that we can do then to turn and look outward into the lives of other people to then minister to them. And that is what the Lord, I think wants us to do and and sometimes calls us to do. And so that is how this has taken shape. And as you mentioned, it is the legacy of this devotional and of the stories of two families intertwined, that we are now able to see how God ministered to us, and how he ministered to Shelley and her family to know that we can then turn and look outwardly to minister to those who are going through a crisis. And that is the whole point of this. But today, a normal in my house is very, very busy. Our children are now 14, 12 and nine, and they are active. They're busy. My husband is an entrepreneur, I have a part time job on the staff at our church, using my background in business, to minister to people and so we are literally jumping from one thing to the next. But this has also taken priority, that together as a family, we've had the opportunity to stand up and share what God has done in our life.

Rodney Olsen 

And as you continue to do that through this wonderful devotional I'm sure that there are people listening right now who say that is something that I need in my life right now because I've been through a difficult time or, as you say, to be able to gift this book to someone else who if they know that someone is going through a difficult time that they would like to gift it to them. If people are trying to get themselves a copy of a perfect storm wish should they go?

Sarah Nelson 

They can go on Amazon, and they can get the ebook or they can get a paperback copy amazon.com You can type in A Perfect Storm: Devotions During a Crisis. You can also go to my blog, sarahnelsonblog.com and there is a link where you can buy it on Amazon there as well.

Rodney Olsen 

And of course, we will put links to both Amazon to get the book, also to your blog, on the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net. So the people can track that down very easily. Sarah, it has been wonderful to talk to you to hear how God has used this very difficult circumstance to bring good for so many more people. I just want to thank you for being open with your story. And thank you for being prepared to hear God's voice in putting this devotional together for others. Thanks for your time today.

Sarah Nelson 

Thank you for having me.

Emily Olsen 

Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net

His parents were told they should abandon him. They didn’t listen and Dorsey Ross has been ignoring every limitation ever since. Dorsey Ross was born with a severe congenital disability. Now, in his mid-40s, Dorsey has proved the doctors wrong but life still has been full of challenges. He's been told that so many of the milestones that most of us take for granted would be impossible for him. He's refused to listen.

https://dorseyrossministries.com

https://www.facebook.com/DROCKROSS

https://anchor.fm/dorseyrossshow 

John Simmons battled an invisible addiction that plunged him into debt and deep depression. He was living a life that was totally out of control and the very thing that was pushing him closer and closer to destruction was the thing he thought would solve the issues he was facing. It was a downward spiral that almost cost him his life. Things are very different now. These days, John is bringing hope into the lives of others through his ministry, Testimony House.

http://testimonyhouse.org/

https://www.youtube.com/c/TestimonyHouse 

https://www.facebook.com/testimonyhouses/

https://www.instagram.com/testimonyhouse/

(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)

Emily Olsen 

Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen 

Thanks for listening. You can follow Bleeding Daylight wherever you find podcasts and never miss an episode. Please connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, and please share this and other episodes with others.

Today’s guest battled an invisible addiction that plunged him into debt and deep depression. We’ll hear about his remarkable transformation in just a few moments.

My guest today was living a life that was totally out of control and sinking him further and further into debt. His problem was that the very thing that was pushing him closer and closer to destruction was the thing he thought would solve the issues he was facing. It was a downward spiral that almost cost him his life. Things are very different now. These days, John Simmons is bringing hope into the lives of others through his ministry, Testimony House. It's a privilege to speak to him today to hear more about his story, John, thank you for joining me on Bleeding Daylight.

John Simmons 

Thanks, Rodney, for having me on the program. So excited to share my testimony today with you.

Rodney Olsen 

We're going to talk about what it was that threatened to wreck your life completely but before we do, tell me what life was like beforehand.

John Simmons 

Before I got wrecked? Well, I grew up here in St. Louis, Missouri, in the States and normal life, two parents, until I was 12 years old, my dad passed away. And that was the genesis of my destructive life, essentially, because I had been attending church I had some nice, godly friends, I had thought I had accepted Jesus into my heart. But I prayed the night before my father died that I wanted to not go to school the next day, because I had a project to and it wasn't finished. And so I woke up the next morning, and it was 9am. And school started at eight. School was out of session, and I wasn't there. And I was so excited. But then a few moments later, my mom walked in and she said, we lost your dad last night. And for 20 years, Rodney, I thought that I had prayed. And I'd always heard a church when I was a little boy, I God answers prayers in a way that's unusual, or more than you can ask or think or imagine. And I'd heard these sorts of things. And so I put those things that I'd heard together and thought that I prayed for a day off school, and instead the God that I was praying to had killed my dad for me, and I was just so devastated. I was like, well, that's how you answer prayers, I'm never gonna pray to you again. And that was, that was life before I started gambling, I just sort of live in my own way away from God.

Rodney Olsen 

That's a very heavy burden for you to have to carry to feel that your prayers had actually killed your father. And even the fact that it then tainted your picture of God to say that, well, he will go out and kill someone. For me. That's another burden that you're having to carry. Was your dad. Ill for a long time before that, or was this totally unexpected?

John Simmons 

All this was sudden he had a massive heart attack and passed away the we had had floodwaters and before our basement was flooded, he was downstairs trying to deal with we had about three inches of water in our basement, and he was trying to get it out and deal with it. And he had just 3am just had a heart attack and die whenever the last thing I said to him was would you take the dog out? You know, and so it's just no one knew what was coming.

Rodney Olsen 

And you mentioned there that the problem that really caused all the issues that you were facing was that gambling. So between that 12 year old boy and the time he started gambling, how much time was there? When was it that you started to go down this track of gambling,

John Simmons 

I started gambling when I was 18 years old on line, we had a poker website called bet us calm or something like that. And it had just poker tournaments. And I was led there by my brother who I was living with at the time. And he said, You know what, they play these $5 tournaments. And so I remember getting online, and playing $5 tournaments with him and a couple other friends who we knew he had more recreational money. But I had actually started working a bunch of part time jobs, I loved having money in my pocket. It was, I mean, the love of money was in my heart deep from an early age. By the time I was 18 years old, I was working three part time jobs. And so I was working 40 to 60 hours a week, as soon as I turned 17 different jobs around where I lived. And so I started to accumulate some actual money in my bank account at a young age. And since I didn't have any rent to pay, and I had no bills, I started just put my money online. Eventually, I graduated from $5 tournaments, to $100 buy ins to cash games, which are a lot different than poker tournaments, if no one's familiar, you know, a tournament is one set buy in and you go in and you play for you know until you're out of chips or till the time is over. And you know, going in how much money you might win or lose. A cash game is a lot different. You go in with your money and at anytime you can reload and put more of your money on the table. You can lose all of your money in a moment's notice. And there's no set limits of how much you can win or lose.

Rodney Olsen 

Was this something that you started to get good at as you started to understand how it all worked? Was it something that made you think, Hey, this is something that I could do more full time?

John Simmons 

Yeah, I absolutely thought I was the world's best poker player. There's no doubt about that the origin of why I thought I could do this stems from ESPN. And they had started running these programs called the World Series of Poker and it was highlighting these poker tournaments that took place in Las Vegas. And this man in 2002 named Chris Moneymaker What an awesome name right? And he had bought into a tournament like it About a $40 online tournament and want to see in this tournament that cost $10,000 to enter, and he won that tournament. So he won't, he turned $40 into $2 million. And I was like, Well, I have $40, I can go do that. And so I bought every book I could on Poker. So I was trying my best to do as good as I could. The problem that I found out Rodney, and this is, is that no matter how good you are, when you're in addiction, you have no off switch. And that was the issue for me is the reason that I lost so much money, the reason that I couldn't stop and I went on for so long, and it became such a burden to my life is because no matter how much I won that day, I would go back the next day, and I would continue until it was all all gone.

Rodney Olsen 

And I'm sure that even then you had this idea that there were some losers out there who wouldn't know what they were doing. And they would gamble their money away. But you were clued up, you were reading up and and you must have felt, you know what my turn is going to come because I'm getting educated about this. And I know what I'm doing.

John Simmons 

Yeah, I thought that there was any moment I was due to hit one of these jackpots that they offered or win a big tournament or get a place in the next tournament. And I really thought that the suckers at the table that I would win from some days had nothing to do with me, and that I actually wasn't part of their world. You know, I didn't see myself as someone who was behind the eight ball, so to speak, in terms of my skill level or my winning level. It wasn't until a few years later, when things started to really, it doesn't take long for you to lose money, even no matter how long you've been working to save it up when you have a consistent gambling habit. And so for me, it just started to overwhelm my finances to the point where I had to start doing payday loans and credit cards to fund my habit. And that's really when I started to be like, ooh, maybe maybe I'm not as good as I thought or, you know, I didn't recognize it as a problem. But I definitely started to have questions about what's going on,

Rodney Olsen 

Tell me about the first time that you actually walked into a real game, because you've started out on these online games. And it's easy enough to switch that off at the end, although, as you say, you're being drawn in and spending more time there. What about the first time that you walked into an actual game with people around the table?

John Simmons 

Yeah, I'd love to tell you about that because it happened the weekend of my 21st birthday, which is the legal gambling age in America. And I'm so excited because I'm like, oh, finally, I've been playing poker online for three years. But I'm in a room by myself clicking buttons, and I'd seen all the tournaments on on TV, I'd saw Chris Moneymaker won this tournament, and he's in Las Vegas. And I'm like, maybe I'll run into some of these guys I've seen on TV. I'm so excited. You know, these older guys, they were all smoking cigarettes or cigars at the table, and they all had sunglasses on inside, it was just so much like a movie or you picture it. This like gangster vibe, you know, I was just like, this is great. I love it. And cash is flying around the table. And I think I lost $100 my first time. So I don't have this, like I want a million dollars. And that's why I kept going story. But for me, it was the atmosphere. It was the culture. I just wanted to keep going. I played in a dozen tournaments that weekend. I didn't leave with much money in my pocket. But I just had the greatest time. And I just went home saying I want to do this. I want to play cards like this a lot. And I remember someone who I was working with at the time I said, Well, you know, there's poker rooms in St. Louis and, and there's a couple local casinos, but I'd never been in them. I wasn't gambling age. And I didn't realize what was behind those doors. But they were like, yeah, and so I drove up there. As soon as I got back from Las Vegas, I went to a local casino here where I live, sat down at a game and it was the same thing I experienced in Las Vegas. But now it was a mile down the street from me. And so it led me to a pattern where I would just continue to go to the casino whenever it was open. And until that money started to run out.

Rodney Olsen 

And this is starting to become less of a pastime and more of a lifestyle that you're being drawn into. And it seems like a very attractive lifestyle for you at this stage.

John Simmons 

For me, yeah, I was wanting to be near it. I wanted to surround myself with it. So much so that I was working in radio at the time. I had gone to school for radio, I had this passion to be a radio host. I was so lured in that eventually I left my job at the radio station and took a job at the casino dealing poker. So now that I was able to work at the casino, I was able to play the casino. And then if I wasn't doing those two things I was sleeping. And so this was a pattern of rinse and repeat for me for years, years and years. And eventually I had to sign myself off the casino to get away from it. My lifestyle would become too oppressive on my actual life and the things that I was dealing with the results of my gambling.

Rodney Olsen 

Tell me about the sorts of losses that you are going through at this stage. When did it start to mount up and you started to realize all this is going a bit far?

John Simmons 

When I turned 21 and I started playing cash games more regularly. That's when it really started to dwindle and quickly. And so after school I was working two full time jobs. I was trying to play catch up with my losses, but it never happened. The biggest losses occurred when I lost all of my working income and started getting credit cards. And so I would get, you know, a $25,000 limit credit card, or I would get payday loans from across the city where I would, you know, basically barter my paycheck for extra money. And so I'd have dozens of these types of loans. And so by the time I was 23, I had accumulated over $200,000 of debt, I had to go file bankruptcy, because eventually I lost my credit, you know, these creditors weren't issuing me any credit, I wasn't paying these bills back. Obviously, gambling addiction is one of the ones where you can be an addict, and no one can notice, you know, I'm not walking in my, my speeches and slurred, I'm not hunched over, I'm not drunk at a wheel, you know, I act and look normal. But on the inside, Everything's going haywire. And that was the first time I told my family and friends that I had an issue was the first time that I had to confront when I was dealing with and everyone was telling me that all these problems that I had, and I needed to get help, and they all had their suggestions and ended up with me being in counseling sessions, and I had to get give over my money. But that was the first time that I lost a lot of money, but it wasn't the last.

Rodney Olsen 

And so often we hear these stories of people who have run up huge gambling debts and to be down $200,000 at the age of 23 is massive. And so often the thing that people think is, well, why didn't they walk away when they noticed that they were starting to lose money? Maybe you can talk us through that help us to understand what it is that keeps driving you back to that, even though it's it seems to be quite plain to everyone else outside of it, that this is a losing game.

John Simmons 

There was no doubt that people thought that I was dealing a losing game. And I would consistently be taught Johnny, why don't you just stop, you know, you just quit this. It's ruining your life for some people were as bold enough to be like, Johnny, you're a loser, quit. Just stop right now. And I just remember thinking, you guys don't understand if I just win this jackpot. If I just win this tournament, just like Chris Moneymaker, if I do any of those things, and all of a sudden, I have a million dollars in my bank account. I'm not a loser anymore. I'm not stupid for keeping going. You're going to envy the life that I have. And that was really a driving motivating force for my thought life at that period of time. I was just like, no, they just don't get it. They don't get it. Because they're there. They don't realize that if I win this, everything's fine. all my problems are erased, all the problems that they see are gone. Once this money shows up in my bank account. I don't have an issue anymore. But that was far from the case.

Rodney Olsen 

And now I mentioned those that are offering these opportunities to gamble, such as the casinos and poker houses. They're doing their very best to make you think that the next big win is just around the corner too, aren't they?

John Simmons 

Yeah, they put signs on the wall that will say jackpot. It'll say $250,000 and you hit this jackpot. If you hit a certain hand in poker, or if you get beaten in a certain way they call it a bad beat. And so they have jackpots listed on the walls, they offer you playing, you know, perks, if you play long enough, you get free meals. And so I was like, Well, if it's just like getting free lunch, sometimes I would think, you know, take my $200 up there, and I'm gonna get a free lunch, but you're not gonna just take in $5 up to the store and bought a sandwich. But that was not my mindset. My mindset was like, how can I keep going in these casinos certainly make it attractive. If you if you buy in for a certain amount, we'll match it today. And those types of offers. They came quite often.

Rodney Olsen 

And you mentioned that this was the first time that you tried to address this issue. And you've talked to counselors. And yet it didn't stop there. What happened at that point?

John Simmons 

In these counseling sessions, I wasn't really trying. I was just going through the motions trying to get out of that session and get myself back in a place financially stable, and then I could gamble again. And so that's what I did, you know, I would just constantly do the things people wanted me to do to try and appease them. And then I would go back to the counselors or back to GA meetings which Gamblers Anonymous, and take these types of steps to try and get help. For my problem. Even though I didn't think that I had a problem. It wasn't till years later that I finally woke up one day and was like, yeah, this is me. This is not going to happen when I woke up at 30 years old. And I was thinking, this isn't the life that I imagined having as a child. You know, when I was a child, I had these big dreams and aspirations and things that I wanted to do and be in radio and be a musician and all these different things that had filled my hopes up as a young boy. But as an adult, I realized that my hopes had all been dashed from all the losses in the gambling and I was hopeless. I was depressed. I was severely depressed. By the time I got into this addiction for 10 years and long after I really got into a point where I was betting sports and doing other things to try and hide and mask some of my losses from family and friends by using a different method of gambling in order to keep the thrill of you know that adrenaline those things going in my life.

Rodney Olsen 

Where was the money coming from at this stage because that initial time weighing you down $200,000, you've gone to counseling, you've declared yourself bankrupt. So what is actually funding this habit at this stage?

John Simmons 

That's a great question. They passed a law that said poker dealers essentially could keep their own wages, their own tips. And before that, we had done a pooling system where all the tips that came into the room were shared equally among 50, or 60, poker dealers that were at this particular casino that I worked at. And in that year, that they created that new law, I was one of the better dealers, I dealt really fast, and I worked fast. And so a lot of the players like me, the regulars appreciated my speed and accuracy of doing the games quickly, so they could keep that thing going faster. And so I made about $90,000, in my first year of making my own tips, and I did that for several years. And so this was able to fund them keep me going and sustain through those years of of high income losses,

Rodney Olsen 

The whole time that you're there dealing and doing the very best that you can to get all the tips coming in, it must have been just rolling around in your mind, well, once I finished this, today, I'm going to go to the table myself and start to bet some of this money, it must have been that drawer for you.

John Simmons 

It was payday and I had two days off work, I would have to drive hours, I'm talking minimum of four hours away to the nearest casino where I was legally allowed into because when you sign yourself off to Casino in my state, if you go inside, it's illegal and it's considered trespassing, you can be arrested and go to jail. And so I would have to find new ways to gamble and play cards. So I would drive to casinos around America trying to find a place, you know, in a two or three day span where I can get to there and I can gamble for two days straight, I wouldn't sleep, I would be exhausted afterwards. A lot of times I would leave without any money in my pocket at all. I remember having to float bad checks to try and just get gas money to get home. Those are those results of me trying to chase these losses.

Rodney Olsen 

And initially you went in and there's this great romantic sense of this lifestyle that's happening and these people around the table that the sunglasses that the cigars, the cigarettes and all of this is drawing you in. How's it feeling? Now, at this point, when you're having to use bad checks when you're having to drive all these miles just to find another casino? Was there any of that thrill left at all?

John Simmons 

The thrill was always there when you're at the table. Because when you're at the table, you're not concerned with any of those other things, you're still in that culture in that atmosphere, you're you're still a moment away from that jackpot, that tournament win. And so when you're at the table, you lose connection to the rest of the world, you're not there anymore. The thrill of it was always there on days that I had cash in my pocket on the days that I didn't, it was miserable. I mean, I was completely frustrated and angry at my life, I would spend as much time as I could asleep or working to try and make more money to try and pay back some of my debts to the people who needed it the most. A lot of times that was my bookie for years who would you know, call or text me every, every so often, john, Where's my money? Where's my money, and that was a stressful situation. And so at one point, I do remember thinking, maybe it's not going to happen. And that's when I finally realized, you know what, maybe I need to get help. And that's when I finally entered a rehab center on my own. Well, for the first time I was 29 years old. And I was looking to find that hope that I never had.

Rodney Olsen 

There's this thrill when you're at the table but as soon as you walk away, things are vastly different and you touched on the depression that you felt had they did that go?

John Simmons 

Well, the war, the mind the Bible describes is that my mental thought life was completely different than anything I've ever experienced. And that is something I never would ever want to go back to the pressures that I was under financially would not allow my mind to rest. And so I was constantly thinking about what I owe this guy money, I owe these 10 places money, this war of my mind would start and then the devil would come in and say, well, let's let's go to the casino with that $2,000. And maybe you can double it up. Or maybe you can triple it up and you can have everybody paid off by the end of the weekend. But of course the money would usually be gone by the end of the weekend. Because even if I would win if I win if I win a tournament and like there was a weekend that I want a jackpot and a tournament the same weekend, and I had $10,000 in my pocket. But two months later that money was gone. It started off by me just sort of pulling myself back from others and just sort of like wanting to be alone. And I would spend so much time alone that my friendships would suffer, my relationships would suffer. And then eventually, when I got really bad, I started to blame my friends and those closest to me, I kicked my best friend out of my apartment because I blamed his party for not being able to sustain my happy life. And but the truth was, is that I'd stolen and gambled his rent money I didn't want him to know, I was engaged in that relationship was broken off and I never got married to her. You know, my my brother. He hasn't trusted me ever since. And, you know, there's a lot of different fractured relationships throughout my life all stemming from the fact that first I pulled away I got depressed. I got angry, I got bitter. I got frustrated. I'm taking it out on the people closest to me and the rest that I could never find in my mind, the only time I could ever seem to have any peace in those situations was when I was sleeping. So I slept a lot on days that I didn't have money to gamble. Because if I had money to gamble, I was at the casino, or I was watching sports betting on them. But the days that I didn't, I would fall asleep as best as I can, I'll take medicine to fall asleep. And the only relief that I could find in as soon as I would wake up, those thoughts would flood back into my mind and making every waking moment as miserable as possible.

Rodney Olsen 

In the end, you mentioned that you checked yourself into rehab, give us a bit of an understanding of what happened in that process.

John Simmons 

So I was 29 years old, I woke up one day basically was reflecting on the life that I was living in how much money I've lost and how many relationships I broke in and how miserable I was and how alone I was in this little, you know, one bedroom apartment, and I didn't talk to anybody unless I was at work and the work was causing me to, you know, be in a culture and an atmosphere of continuing to do the same things over and over again, I was in this bad cycle. And I wanted out. This wasn't the life that I thought I was meant to have. As a young boy, I just thought I was gonna do all these things. And to have lost all those dreams was really upsetting to me, when I finally woke up at 29 and realized that I hadn't reached them. They weren't even in the distance. It wasn't even like I was in just a few years on my get it No, they were gone. They were long gone. And that was really that was upsetting to me in a major way. And so I went into this rehab facility in town. It's a joke anyway, because the rehab facility that I call to get put into is run by the government that also runs the casinos. So it's like having the the people who make the cigarettes make the cigarette recovery material. They make money either way. So the system's not really built for creating successful support. When you go into these programs, though, there's a couple different things you can do. They recommend going to GA Gamblers Anonymous meetings where you meet with other problem gamblers and you share swap, bad beat stories. And commiserate essentially, is what I believe were happening in those meetings. And some people walk the steps, but I was seeing the same people in these meetings that I saw there years ago. And so no one that I noticed was even getting the help they needed. I went in and I started to have counseling sessions and group sessions, trying to stay clean, and I was trying hard. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this. And I remember it 30 days I've gone 30 days sober. And that was probably the first time I'd gone 30 days sober in a decade, one of my counselors handed me this pin and it was like 30 days clean. And everybody clapped. And then john, great job, you did an awesome job. You're so awesome, good job. And I remember feeling pride in myself for the first time in a long time. And I hadn't experienced that and so long that I created that I was like, Oh, I'm gonna keep doing this. Like I couldn't have pinpointed why that was happening. But I was definitely feeling that I wanted to chase that high. And that was a new high essentially, of this recognition of the things that I had accomplished in life, when really all I had done is not done this bad thing for 30 days. So I went 60 days clean, and I went 90 days clean in both sessions. The party happened to get a good job, john, you did a great job. Great, great, great. And then my counselor said at the end of 90 days, and this is the thing that set me on a path to change my life. He said the next time we'll celebrate your win as a year, and we only celebrate years after 90 days. And I go what Wait, why? I was like, I need this. I need you to continue to like encourage and support me and like I need a goal to drive through because the desire to gamble has never left my heart. Every single day for 90 days. My thought life had been gamble, gamble, gamble, let's go to the casino and gamble, let's go to placing gamble, let's but like that was my thought life. I was doing everything I could to stop myself from doing those things. I would overeat I gained over 100 pounds during the season in my life, from constant overeating. I would smoke 100 cigarettes a day, you know, I would do anything that I could to either try and take my mind off, I go to the movie theaters to take my mind off of these things or to just avoid it altogether. I had no one to spend time with no one to be around me. So I'm isolated. And I'm trying to get fixed. And I was so upset when my counselor said that I wasn't going to get any affirmation anymore. And I realized that the desire to gamble hadn't gone away. I asked him in that session, I said, Well, this sucks. I said, this is rehab, you're supposed to fix me. Why aren't you fixing me? And he's just basically like, well, we don't fix you was his response. We don't fix you. He said you have to learn to live one day at a time, or 15 minutes at a time. And they quoted the Serenity Prayer at me again. And I was just like, no, this is ridiculous. This isn't working for me. And so I left that session. I called my bookie I put all the money that I'd saved up in 90 days on a bunch of bets and I went on this eight day bender and I just spent anything that wasn't tied down on my part it went to the pawn shop. Everything went out the door any money I had was gone. At the end of it. That's when I finally was like this is it. I guess this is I've I've placed myself in a hopeless situation. There's nowhere left to go.

Rodney Olsen 

And what was it that then brought about the change. You've gone through the counselling and that didn't work, you're really just going through the motions, you've gone through the rehab, expecting to feel fixed and for that desire to go away and found out. No, that's not what we do here. So you've gone on another bender, and that hasn't helped, what actually turn things around for you?

John Simmons 

Well, at the end of the bender, I was just beside myself crying in my dark one bedroom apartment. That's when the the legitimate thoughts of suicide can remind for the first time, I was thinking about taking my car and driving it into a wall, or jumping off a bridge, which I'd seen one of my other poker friends do a few years earlier. And he had killed himself because he was in a similar situation. started about taking the pills in my apartment, and I had serious thoughts about taking my own life that night. And in a like, just a, oh my gosh, what's happening to me moment, I was just like, oh, maybe I'll maybe I'll pray. I've heard people talk about prayer before. I haven't talked to God. In a long time since that prayer that I thought killed my father. I know that now that that's not what he did. So I sat on the edge of my bed, and I sort of just looked up at the ceiling. And these are the words that I said, and I didn't really know how or what to pray. But I said, God, if you're real, I need you to show me a future and a hope for my life because I just don't see one anymore and in that moment, I started to hear the words repeat in my head, The kingdom of heaven is upon you. The kingdom of heaven is upon you. And it just started getting louder. And I honestly thought, Rodney, that I had gone crazy that I was finally hearing voices because the kingdom of heaven is upon you was not a phrase that I was not even not familiar with, but I didn't even understand it. And so I thought weird things were happening. I ran out of my bedroom, and I ran into the living room. And I noticed my dad's Bible, it was the one thing from my dad passing away that was given to me. I didn't have any of his clothes. I had no articles to remember him. I didn't even hardly have any pictures. But they'd given me his Bible after he passed away. Apparently, he was a he was a believer. He taught Bible school years ago, he never talked to me about Jesus any any point. But I opened up his Bible, I felt compelled to, I don't know really wide carried it for 20 years, he'd been dead for 17 years at that point. And I had never opened it. It is collected dust on the shelf. And I didn't really know what to look at. But I felt like I had to start reading it. And I opened it up to the New Testament because I knew from my brief experience in church that Jesus was in the New Testament, I was just like, I think I need to read about Jesus. And so I opened up to the first page of the book of Matthew and a couple paragraphs into this reading. It says, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is upon you. And I froze. I just stared at that sentence for a few minutes. And I felt this warmth on my body. And I just, I remember, choking up and in that moment, I realized God's real. I think he's talking to me. I just kept reading that book of Matthew that night a couple times. And I had this revelation that night. That all the words in this Bible that everybody told me for my whole life. And I agreed with a lot of the opinions of the world that the books of the Bible are for old people. They're just a list of rules. They're hard to understand, no one really gets it. It's a bunch of contradictions and all these things. And I believed all that, but I was having a different experience. In this moment. I was reading the book of Matthew and I was reading about the life of Jesus. And these words, were jumping off the page and into my heart. I realized in that moment that this guy had come. And he had lived a life for me. And he died on the cross without doing anything wrong, so that I could find forgiveness. And so I got down on my knees. I didn't know what to do. But I was just like, God, I messed up. I've just lived a life that's dirty. I don't even I don't even know what the prayer was. But I remember just, it all came out. God help me I need your help. This is not something I want to carry anymore. I don't even know what to do I owe all this money in Lord just forgive me, just please forgive me. I don't want to do this anymore. And it was just, and I felt all the weight of the world fall off my shoulders. In that moment, it was the best relief that I've ever experienced. It was physical, in the sense that I literally felt like a pressure and a weight had been lifted off of my body. But in that moment, I realized that life was about to get different for me. How different did it become because you're still a person who has this enormous debt that you're having to pay back. You're still in the same situation. But as you're saying, there's this weight that feels it's been lifted from you. So

Rodney Olsen 

How did that change start to manifest in your life?

John Simmons 

For me, it tarted with daily Bible reading. I was I was so thirsty for God's word that in that early days that I wouldn't leave without my Bible. I'd go to work with my Bible. I'd read my Bible in the in the break room at work or in the car and I listened to sermon messages on the radio on the drive to work or when I got home, I would watch Christian sermons on TV and I was just trying to fill myself with all these new ideas and things from the Bible and trying to learn more about who God was and his love for me and how to make my life different. Not really applying much of it yet. At one point I remember somebody asked me if I wanted to go to church with them. And I was like, No, I don't need church. All they do is take your money. And I just was like, I don't want to go there. I've got my Bible. That's all I need. And, of course, I was wrong. I needed that community, the community that I hadn't had in my life for so long. Eventually, I find myself in a church service for the first time and the pastor. He had a series on vision and he said, if you're a Christian, you need to find God's plan for your life. And you find it by praying for it. And this was revelation knowledge to me, I'd never prayed for anything except my food at that point. And so I was like, Okay, well, if God's got a plan for me, I want to plan for my life. I'm aimless, I have nowhere to go, I have no word. I don't know what to do. I'm working at this casino. I obviously want to get away from this gambling addiction, which didn't come off right away. I start praying for six months, every day, every minute that I can think to pray, God, show me your vision for my life, God, show me your vision for my life. So for six months, all I prayed for was food and a vision. And as I was doing that, I was continuing to study God's word and go to church more often I got involved in the parking lot ministry waving at people as they came into church in the mornings. And I was excited where my life was, but I still had the issues and the results of my sin, you know, the debt that had piled up and I was still smoking a lot. And I was still drinking and some of these things, and God started one by one. taking those things out of my life. The first time that had happened was with my cigarettes, and I was trying to lose weight. And on a walk, I was smoking cigarettes. And I just remember the holy spirit being like, how are you ever going to get healthy if you're doing that? I tried quitting smoking a dozen times before I was saved pills, patches, gums and all that and never worked. But in that one conviction note, I threw that pack of cigarettes in the in the dumpster near me, and I never smoked again. And it was this just deliverance moment. For me. That happened a few times later, it happened again with my drinking. And then eventually, with my gambling, I placed my last bet a few months after I'd gotten born again. And I got back into the casino for the last time and I had this not this huge knot in my stomach. It felt like there was weights on my ankles as well. And I just remember the physical manifestation of like, john, you should not go in there. John, you need to get out of here. And so that was the last I walked in there. And I played for about five minutes. My stomach hurts so bad from being in there that I left. And I cried on the way home and I was just like, oh, gosh, what you know, why do I feel like this and, but that was him breaking that off me. And so I never made another bet again, of course, you still have to deal with the issue of the money. And so I stayed at the casino until May of the following year when God gave me the vision for Testimony House. after praying for six months, God revealed to me that I would start a ministry, I knew it was God talking to me because I didn't really know what a ministry was. I was like a ministry, the only ministry I'd ever heard of at that point was the parking lot ministry. at my church, I was thinking, you want me to go wave at people like I don't know what that is, or how that's a job. But that's what I saw, I knew that it was him talking to me. And a few hours later, he gave me a download. And I've never experienced anything like this before since and he said, john, you're going to start a ministry, it's going to be called Testimony House, I was in the middle of dealing a poker hand at work, I stopped basically stopped the hand and everybody's just sort of looking at me and I take a pen that was sitting next to me and I start writing on my hand Testimony House, it's going to be a Christian Learning Center. And all these words are Greek to me, I don't know what Testimony House is as that's not something I've dreamed of, or thought of, or, you know, I had aspirations to be a musician, or maybe you play Christian music, if he was going to give me a plan. Those are my plans. His plan was for me to share my testimony, and start a ministry where we share the testimony of others. And I write books where I'm inspiring and encouraging others to walk out and find God's plan for the life. And that's those are the types of things that I'm writing down here on my hand and this poker table, because I don't want to forget what he's saying to me, I get home and I put them all in a Word document. And it's about 20 pages long. I've never done anything like this. And I start sharing it with some of the people from church and they're like this must be from God, because you're, you're too dumb to have thought of any of this basically, is the gist of their conversation to be like, and so it was such eye opening that oh my gosh, I found the vision that I've been praying for for six months. I don't know what it looks like, I don't know what's going to happen. But over the course of those six months, God had delivered me from the afflictions in my life. God had given me a new a new vision to walk towards in my life, I still had to pay down debt. You're right, Rodney, and it took me years of that. And you know, it wasn't until, in fact, the summer of last year that I finally became debt free. And so now I'm debt free walking in fullness of what God has for me in ministry. And in life. I have a family and a wife and three kids,

Rodney Olsen 

There's a couple of things. I just want to touch on there that you've talked about. And the first is the fact that you prayed constantly for six months. God give me a vision. And I'm wondering, firstly, do you think that people give up way too soon when they're praying for something that they might pray for a couple of days, maybe a few weeks? If they're being really persistent, it might be a month, but then it's like, well, God's not bringing it. And the other thing is the fact that the Holy Spirit was actually touching you on the shoulder and saying, Hey, this is time to give this up and then giving you the power to do that. Do you think so often We try and take the place of the Holy Spirit by telling people what they should and shouldn't be doing.

John Simmons 

Yeah, I'll start with that question first. So the Holy Spirit thing is it was so unique to me, because I remember having to ask people like, Is this normal? Like, it was so unusual for me to, like, hear that internal monologue that I knew wasn't my voice? And that's how I experienced the Holy Spirit, you know, these these just little phrases? Usually, it's a question like, why are you doing that, and these sorts of things. And so for us, we're just like, well, to stop gaming, why can't like I've tried, I'm saying that I still can't stop. Like, I need the Holy Spirit to show up and convict me and, you know, speak to me in a way that my mind needs to grasp the reality of the situation that I'm in. And it was so awesome for me to experience that I would encourage anybody who's like trying to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit to just like, what, usually when it's telling you to do something, you know, you shouldn't be doing that's probably him. And you just listen to some of that walk into instead of trying to like, self correct, because I self corrected for 10 years, Rodney, and nothing seemed to work, you know, my family tried to give me a self correct I was sent, I was one time sent to a psychiatrist where I was prescribed pills to stop me from gambling, and they definitely worked. But I also didn't want to leave my couch or work or live or do anything else. So they didn't really work as in terms of being able to correct my life. So all these things that I had done, none of them worked as good as is partnering with the Holy Spirit to walk in what he wanted me to do with my life. As far as the vision goes, I absolutely believe that a vision is the number one thing. This is my own personal opinion, a vision is the number one thing that can help someone in any issue of their life. Whether it is you know, you're sick, and you need to find a vision to be healed, or someone in your family, or whether it's a you're an addict, and you need to have a vision of not being an addict. And you need to figure out what God's plan is for your life so that you could walk further in that. And for me, the desire to pray was well, first off, it came because I didn't know what else to pray. No one had taught me how to pray for anything besides vision and food. And so I was like, well, these are the things that I pray for. But it was such a hunger for me because I had nothing else. I had nothing else in my life. And I was so desperate for it. And you see this often in the Bible, the stories of the people who are like Daniel, fasting, fasting, fasting, fasting, and praying, fasting and praying, and he was so desperate to get out of his situation. And so many times you see this in other Bible people, that's what I was experiencing, I was so desperate to find what God had for me because Jesus died on the cross for me. And I recognize that now, I asked for forgiveness of my sins. But he was asking for more he was asking us to take up our cross and walk with he's asking us to walk in love and demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit. And all these different things in the Bible were talks about like your next steps. I was like, I want to do that for him. He died for me, I want to give my life to Him. And so for me, I was like, I'm gonna find it, I'm going to go chase this vision, I'm gonna pray for it everyday, I'm going to believe for it, I started writing things down. And in the midst of all that, I will let you know that I I stepped out on my own a couple times trying to be like, well, maybe this is what he wants me to do. And so I tried a series of things, including trying to be a stand up Christian comedian, including trying to write Christian music and starting a Christian band. I tried to start a Christian podcast, and I did all these things that I thought was God speaking to me. But it wasn't, it was me trying to fill in from God, when you hit when I heard from God, I knew it was God, it was something way bigger than anything I could have planned for myself. That's how you know it's him, because you're going to need help from others to do it. The other thing is going to be probably be something you don't necessarily want to do in a million years, I would have never expected to be brought in, sit in a ministry and lead a ministry. Now that I'm in it, I realized that Oh, my goodness, I have been made and created and designed specifically for this. And I got when I finally read Ephesians 2:10 and said, You are God's handiwork created to be used by God for great things. Through Jesus Christ. I was just like, this is what I've been created to do like this, is it? I know that this is it. And so for people who are giving up on their visions, yes, I absolutely would agree with you that so many of us, we don't see it overnight. And that as time passes, it becomes so easy to let go of the things that are important to you. Because you're just not seeing any fruit in that area. We give up so often on vision. But if you just press and you say God, I want this so bad and you don't give up and you don't let those prayers go. Imagine the moment you can have where God gives you a revelation where this is the answer to your prayer. This is the healing you've been praying praying for this is the vision of a career that you've been praying for this is the vision of unlocking the salvation for your child has been such a trouble and hasn't been able to get saved or set free from the damage they've done in their own lives. All of these things can happen if you just don't give up Never give up on that prayer.

Rodney Olsen 

I know that there are several different aspects to Testimony House so the ministry that God asked you to set up maybe you can give us a thumbnail sketch of what Testimony House is all about.

John Simmons 

Testimony House we call it a Christian Learning Center. Our Our objective is twofold. One is to lead the loss to Christ and we believe we're doing that mainly through creating testimonial videos and books and doing podcasts like this where I either either share my testimony or Share the testimony of others. We do long form testimonial videos. We do short form testimonial videos, we do books that have testimonies in them. All these things are to encourage someone who doesn't know Jesus to find Jesus, someone who is dealing with something and wants to have an aspiration of faith and their own heart. They can overcome or get through or find Jesus in those types of moments for themselves. The second part of our ministry is that we wanted, we call it finding God's sentence for your life. But most people would say, your discipleship, or they would say, finding God's plan and purpose for your life. So we want people to get saved, and then we want them to find what God has for them. We created in the last two years, a studio here in my house where we create live stream content, we invite other ministries to come in and share the messages that God has put on their heart. We do videos, I've written several books, one book's called Finding Faith, and that articulates my path from gambling addict to being born again. And the one called God Has a Sentence for Your Life where I describe how you are step by step guide on finding God's plan for your life after you get born again. And so mostly what we're doing is online videos right now. And we would like to do more events and things in the future. I am sure that there are people listening right now, who want to find out more about this, where's the easiest place for people to track you down? testimonyhouse.org is the website where you can take a 12 question quiz and find out where you are on your path to writing God's sentence. If you want to see any of our video resources, we've merged everything into YouTube, all of our videos, all of our content that has been currently distributed as on our YouTube channel, it's youtube.com/testimonyhouseorg

Rodney Olsen 

So there's a couple of easy ways to find you. And we will put links to those URLs in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net, so people can find them there. But John it has been a delight to speak to you to hear about the transformation that you have you experienced, there can be no doubt that something amazing has happened in your life, and you're continuing to share that to so many people. So I want to thank you for spending some time sharing that story here on Bleeding Daylight,

John Simmons 

Been a pleasure and honor I thank you so much, Rodney, for having me on today.

Emily Olsen 

Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net

In recent years, we've seen a growing interest in what many refer to as true crime. There are blogs, books, podcasts, television shows, and more dedicated to delving into the details of real crimes, and in many cases seeking resolution for previously unsolved crime. Lori Morrison takes us deep into the world of true crime. Lori is a paralegal and a licensed private investigator. Her podcast, The Unlovely Truth, is dedicated to exploring the intersection of faith and true crime.

https://www.theunlovelytruth.com/

https://www.facebook.com/theUnlovelyTruth

https://www.instagram.com/theunlovelytruthpodcast/

[email protected]

(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)

Emily Olsen 

Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen 

Thanks for listening. Please connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, and please share this and other episodes with others.

Our guest today takes us deep into the world of true crime. As a private investigator she’s seen the best and worst of people. I’ll introduce you in just a moment.

In recent years, we've seen a growing interest in what many refer to as true crime. There are blogs, books, podcasts, television shows, and more dedicated to delving into the details of real crimes, and in many cases seeking resolution for previously unsolved crime. My guest on Bleeding Daylight today is Lori Morrison, a paralegal and a licensed private investigator. Her podcast, The Unlovely Truth is dedicated to exploring the intersection of faith and true crime. Lori, thank you for your time today.

Lori Morrison 

Well, it's a pleasure to be here, Rodney.

Rodney Olsen 

I want to explore the reasons that people seem so fascinated by the dark world of crime and maybe the best place to start is asking, what is it about crime that actually fascinates you?

Lori Morrison 

That is a great question. I cannot remember a time when I wasn't interested in mysteries. You know, I started out with the little kid mysteries, the Encyclopedia Browns, and the Nancy, Drews and all that and then got into more literary I guess, if you will more adult things with Earl Stanley Gardner and Agatha Christie, and those just always fascinated me as puzzles. And when you look at true crime, I think that puzzle factor is still there. And the whole psychological aspect of what could possibly drive a person to behave this way.

Rodney Olsen 

So you think there's something in there that makes us wonder, what's going on in that person's mind? Am I someone who could actively carry out a crime like that? Is there something deep within me, do you think that there's something of that, in the whole sense of of wanting to tune into true crime?

Lori Morrison 

Exactly. Because at our core, we want to think, why I'm different from that person, I could never do that. Or that could never happen to me. You know, we're all the same. We all have a broken nature. And you know, the Bible tells us that our hearts are all dark. And without God, there's nothing good in us.

Rodney Olsen 

Do you think sometimes it becomes a little bit morbid for people that they're wanting to find too many details? Or is that part of the the interest that we have into wanting to know it all?

Lori Morrison 

I think it can get too morbid. I know that I have worked a case where people have publicly shared autopsy photos and that's absolutely no one needs to see that, you know, the family really didn't even want to see that you're at your absolute most vulnerable at that point. You know, what, what's left of you here on earth. And so, you know, people using that to hurt other people, or to be sensationalistic or to just have clickbait to get people to look at things, you know, really appealing at the darkest aspects of our nature. I really try to stay away from that type of thing. I want to talk about the issues that are important to understanding why things happened. Understanding, is there a way we can protect ourselves and our loved ones? And is there an avenue of service that we can be involved in? to help prevent these things from happening? Again,

Rodney Olsen 

There are a lot of people delving into True Crime through a range of podcasts these days and I wonder how many of those people are actually reaching out to the victims of the crimes to the families and seeking permission or just going here? And this comes down to that question that you're mentioning, of how much should we share?

Lori Morrison 

I agree. And I I've done a mix of both if, of course, my podcast is based on true crime books, because I just I love books. And I thought that would be an interesting way to choose issues to talk about. And I have had victim's family members on my podcast, you know, you have to think about what is your motivation? Why are you doing what you're doing? And I actually had started out, I was just gonna do a little True Crime book review, you know, this one is balanced and victim centric, this one's exploitative, and kind of tried to steer people that way. But a very good friend of mine, we were talking about how I was getting things set up. And she said, You know, there's a lot of noise out there in the true crime world. And there certainly is, like you said in your introduction, TV shows, documentaries, movies, podcasts, books, it's everywhere. And she said, the thing that makes you different Lori, and that would bring a unique perspective is your faith. And she was exactly right. And so I pivoted just a little bit. I still use the books because I just I love the books. But I tried to just kind of summarize a story, because we were a people that love stories. And that's how Jesus taught as well. And I tried to pull out larger themes, whether it be forgiveness, retaliation, whatever that book really highlights, and talk about how that can apply to our lives in any area of our lives, because most of us, thank goodness are not going to run into a serial killer in our lives. Most of us are only going to meet maybe touched, kind of at the edge of something. And so I wanted to give people that sense of again, how do you make sense of this? How do you maybe protect yourself and your loved ones. But I want people to understand that there are simple things they can do to be of service, I call it being a true crime hero. You can do things that help victims that help maybe prevent some future victimization, and even help maybe, and this is a hard one to swallow the perpetrators. Because God loves them. He doesn't love what they did. But he loves them in the same way he loves us. And we're all created in his image.

Rodney Olsen 

There's so much he there that I want to draw around. And maybe before we go there, I'll ask this question. We see so many programs, there's CSI programs, and all sorts of other things that we've seen on TV over various years, NCIS, and all these different things which are about solving crimes, and even back in the day of just good old fashioned murder mystery, which are fiction. Do you think sometimes the lines blur and so when we're actually getting involved in something that happened to someone that we blur the line, because we're so used to these mysteries as entertainment,

Lori Morrison 

I think that can definitely happen. And of course, it's it's pretty well known the CSI effect. It's even affecting juries, everybody expects that there are going to be fingerprints and DNA, and surveillance camera footage and that's just not always the case. fingerprints in usable form, aren't that easy to recover, they get smudged, they get smeared. If it's a potential offender who has been around that victim, maybe they live in the same house, their friends they visited, of course, there's going to be fingerprints, DNA is only going to help you if you have a sample to compare it against. It's not as easy to solve a lot of these crimes as people think. But then on the flip side, some of them are a little easier to understand what probably happened, but difficult to prove in court. And I think that frustrates people, you know, the rules in our justice system, where certain things are admissible, certain things aren't. And I get that frustration, I really do. But you've got to protect the rights of the accused. Because someday that might be you.

Rodney Olsen 

How do you as a person of faith, managed to continue to surround yourself by this darkness of true crimes and some fairly despicable things happening to other people to victims? And yet hold on to your faith? How do you surround yourself with all of this darkness, and yet still talk about the light,

Lori Morrison 

You do have to be very intentional about working that through. So I make sure I'm staying in the Word, I'm having my time with God, staying in community that is very, very important, having other believers around you that they're bringing other perspectives into your life. And I think for me, what really helps is something that a victim's mother said to me, I was interviewing her, she was telling me her daughter's story. And she had actually become a victims advocate she was working with and for other families who had gone through similar situations. And I asked her, how difficult is that for you? Does that just constantly bring up your own pain and your own tragedy? You know, how do you do that? And she said, Oh, it heals my heart. I was so blown away with that amazing perspective. But she's right. In any type of situation, when we get too involved in self, that darkness is going to stay as a cloud around us. But it's by stepping out. It's by helping others. It's by focusing on other's needs. Because the darkness never leaves on its own. The light has to come in and drive it away. And so I try to remind myself, that that's what I'm doing. It's not about being stuck in the darkness. It's about needing to go there because without me bringing the light into it. It's not going to go anywhere.

Rodney Olsen 

You mentioned that there are some of these television shows that have changed our perception What really happens and so we expect there to be perfect sets of fingerprints everywhere, and DNA that automatically matches and and it's in the system. But of course, one of those other areas where we have got a wrong perception at times I'm sure is that of the private investigator, there are magic life that that is tell us what it's really like,

Lori Morrison 

Well, it's definitely not like Magnum PI, he kind of want to blend in, you don't want to be driving the flashy car and wearing the the loud, bright clothes. So you know, that's fun to watch on TV. But I try to really, really blend in. I try to be unmemorable, if you will. And it's not glamorous, I've I've done surveillance before where you sit, and you sit, sit for long periods of time, waiting for something to happen. Because you can't always predict when people are going to do what it is you want them to do. The hardest thing for me is, if you're interviewing an individual, it really depends on your circumstances. But a lot of times you're trying to get information from individuals, and you don't really necessarily want them to know why you want it. And so you come up with what we call a pretext, you give them a reason to talk about something that's slightly different from your, your actual motive, and trying to be sympathetic and warm and draw information out of people that you feel may have done some fairly horrible things. That's not always easy. But I think you see on TV, you know, people are coming in, and they're being really aggressive, and they're demanding answers, and the people fold and give it to them. I have not really found that that works. Well. I think you come in with a softer approach. You're sympathetic, I apologize a lot. I'm so sorry to be bothering you really try to put people at ease. Sometimes in an unguarded moment, they'll tell you something that they don't really realize, has given something away.

Rodney Olsen 

I do remember being a jury in a court case quite some time ago, and watching the prosecution talking to to the witness who was the defendant. And it was quite interesting to see just some of the almost, you know, passing by kind of questions that were asked, and I just kept thinking that's gonna come back and most of the time it did. So I imagine it is the same as you say that you're asking questions, that the person that you're talking to isn't necessarily imagining that this is going to be a key piece of evidence.

Lori Morrison 

Right. It's interesting, though, I did have one person that the minute they said something, they realized that they shouldn't have said it. And their body language and their facial expression, and even a quick intake of breath. You knew, okay, that information is important, because she just realized she should not have shared that, from her perspective,

Rodney Olsen 

As a person of faith. you're wanting to do the right thing to to be an honest person, obviously. So where do you draw the line with the ends justifying the means? So you're having to come up with a pretext, which is not necessarily what you're really there for? How do you draw that line for yourself as a person of faith?

Lori Morrison 

That's a great question. And nobody has ever actually asked me that. So I'm glad you did. I try very hard not to lie. Because just from a practical standpoint, when you start telling lies, you have to remember what you told who. And the truth is just always easier to remember, what I tend to do is make kind of open ended statements, and allow people to interpret them the way they want to. And then as you see that they're thinking that the conversation is coming from a certain point of view, you just, you just kind of roll with that. If I actually have to tell something that is not entirely true. Again, I try to stay as close to the truth as I possibly can. But I also try to remember Rahab, you know, she missed directed the soldiers away from the spies. And that was credited to her as righteousness, because her larger purpose was God's work and having God's justice be done. And not that I am some agent of God and in some kind of, you know, overblown way, but God uses people that is how he often does his work in our world. and so I just tried to remember the bigger picture of what I'm trying to do, and why I'm trying to do it and who I'm doing it for not only my clients, who are victims, but also a God who loves justice.

Rodney Olsen 

Again, to contrast the wonderful world of television, which is where most of us get our information on these things. In the real world, of course, on the TV, the cases that private investigators take are always involving a millionaire and, and there are all these hard cases to crack, I would imagine that the sort of cases that you have to take on a quite different to that what would an everyday case be that you would need to take on as an investigator?

Lori Morrison 

Well, I have yet to work with any millionaires. So we can dispel that myth pretty quickly. Unfortunately, a lot of people that I'm working with are folks that are just broken, because they feel like the system has let them down. Maybe someone whose loved one has passed, and there was no real investigation, they just quickly said, Oh, this is a suicide, we don't really need to look into things. And the family says, but when I look at the circumstances, and I know my loved one, I just I don't believe that's true. So sometimes it's families that are just wanting more information, to either confirm that determination, or if that determination is not correct, they want justice for their loved one. And they want to take back a narrative that was false. So I've done a lot of work in that area. Sometimes I'm working with attorneys in civil suits. So that's a little bit of the more mundane, where you might have some surveillance, that kind of thing. So it's a pretty mixed bag, but it's not ever really movie worthy from a Hollywood standpoint. Now, from a human standpoint, I think these stories are incredibly compelling, and actually would make good documentary type series again, to to educate people on if your loved one has been a victim of a crime. Here's some things that you need to be doing, to make sure that an investigation is staying on track, and doing everything that needs to be done. Because you know, police departments can get overwhelmed, they just don't have the time to devote to every case that comes their way. It could be a type of crime, that doesn't happen in that jurisdiction very often. And you just don't have officers with the training and experience to look into that particular type of incident. Just a lot of different factors. A lot of times, it's just helping families walk through this and get answers that they are wanting.

Rodney Olsen 

So let's take those examples you're talking about. Sometimes if if a client comes to you and says, look, the police have said that my loved one has suicided below, I believe that there's something more in it, or a case like that, and you're trying to exonerate the person who has passed away from what they've been accused of doing. Oftentimes, I'm sure that you're able to come up with that evidence. And that's a great relief for the client. But there's obviously other times where the evidence that presents actually confirms the police's case, how do you comfort a client when you come to them and say, Look, I'm sorry, but this is how it happened.

Lori Morrison 

That's a tough one. I've had my my arms around clients while they cried. And you just, you just have to be there for them. There's, there's really nothing you can do in that moment, that's going to fix anything. And I think a lot of us are fixers, we want to be able to step in and do something to make it better for them. And if we don't think that we can, then we tend to shy away and not do anything. What I've found with a lot of these families is they just want to be heard, they want to be told that they're not crazy for thinking what they thought, even if things are are looking like they were wrong, because that's going to be most families natural tendency. You know, my loved one didn't do this. You know, you just you have to be willing to sit with them while they absorb that. You have to be willing to just let them talk, let them cry, let them do whatever they need to do. And let them know that they're not alone.

Rodney Olsen 

A lot of the trouble that people find themselves in, as we have said, or what more mundane than the sorts of things that that we might imagine even coming down to the fact that there are disputes between neighbors. And we hear about this all the time. Have you ever had to intervene in that sort of a case,

Lori Morrison 

Actually a couple and one of them was quite scary because the neighbor had a family member that lived with them that we weren't certain was entirely stable, and they had access to a lot of weapons, and routinely liked to just shoot those weapons kind of wherever they were. The neighbors felt very He threatened certain actions that had happened, I understood why they felt threatened. And so drying to step in law enforcement was getting a little tired of being called out, didn't really see this as a problem. And so just just working with them to maybe almost be a go between. And of course, civil litigation is always a good opportunity to let cooler heads decide what should be done. Because a lot of times, people wait until things just get so heated, that the parties themselves really have no good way of working out their differences. But if you can say, you know, look, there's been this type of civil wrong, let's see how the system handles it. And then we will live by whatever is decided in that venue. And sometimes even if somebody thinks criminal behavior has been possibly involved, and the police have not uncovered what they think is enough to move forward in that direction. civil litigation can help there as well. If you have McCollum torts and civil litigation a civil wrong as opposed to a criminal wrong. If you have a tort, you think you can prove a lot of times if you can get that into civil court, that gives you the opportunity to explore other investigative avenues, you can serve subpoenas for documents, or you can hold depositions where you're able to compel sworn testimony. So that venue is very, very helpful. And so with my background as a paralegal, also, I do work with attorneys. And hopefully I can help again, kind of bridge that gap between them and their client. And also maybe save the client some money, litigation can be very expensive. And it's very unfortunate that families would have to pay out of their own pocket to do things that they felt like the authorities maybe should have done. And so if I can do some of kind of the heavy lifting, and then the, the attorney supervises it all and does all the final work on it, that can often help families in that way. And I'm glad that I'm able to do that as well.

Rodney Olsen 

Social media these days, has really cracked open the world to us in seeing what people's immediate reactions to things are. So we're not just having conversations with like minded people where we're seeing the whole thing broken open. And whenever we see a crime or reporting of a crime in social media, there is an overwhelming sense in the comments of just throw the book at them, they deserve this. And yet, you earlier mentioned that as people of faith, we need to be offering some sort of hope, or some sort of love to the perpetrators. How do we do that? How do we keep that balance between bringing justice in a situation, and yet still honoring and loving someone who has done the wrong thing?

Lori Morrison 

I will admit that that is very hard for me. Because when you're working with clients, you get emotionally attached to them. And so someone that has wronged them, it is very hard to to have warm and compassionate feelings for that person. So again, I think that's one of those things that you have to be very intentional about, you have to cultivate that mindset, because I don't think it's a natural mindset for most of us, because we do like vengeance and making things right and punishing bad people and rewarding good people. And it's just hardly ever that neat and tidy. You know, life is messy and when you're talking about criminal behavior, it gets even messier still. And so just remembering that, again, like we said before, deep down in all of us, is that broken nature, that sin nature that we all have that little darkness in us that were we to make a series of disastrous choices could lead us to some pretty dark places where we are really capable of doing things that we don't like to admit we're capable of doing. And so just trying to remember, this person is a dearly loved child of God, no less than I am. I may have made some better choices than this person did. But you know, sin is sin. There are issues in my life that God is highly displeased with. And so, just trying to remember that you're not better than that person, that you're maybe just making some better choices right now. your priorities are more aligned with God's and At the moment than this person, but you're not better, you're not more loved. So just being super, super intentional about remembering that it's, it's just the mindset that we bring to what we're doing. And it's hard.

Rodney Olsen 

You talk a lot about choices there. And I know that as you investigate cases, and as you say, You've become quite close to some of the clients and someone has done them wrong, or they times that you actually investigate, but you can start to see the circumstances that have led them to this dark place.

Lori Morrison 

Oh, for sure. And not that ever excuses what anybody does. I don't want people to think that I'm doing that. And it's never about blaming the victim, you know, you shouldn't have been involved with this person, or you shouldn't have been in this place. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I'm going to make a series of choices that will lead me to be a victim. Nobody does that. So I don't want people to think that victim blaming is ever appropriate. And typically, I find it so interesting, because we would never blame someone whose house got broken into. Well, why did you have that nice TV? Well, why did you not have a security system? We wouldn't do that. But especially sexual assault, physical assault, and homicide. There are times when we say, Well, you know, if you wouldn't have been there, if you wouldn't have done that. But like you said, on the flip side, you can start looking at these perpetrators. And you can say, okay, you made a lot of bad choices. But some of these choices were made for you, whether it was in your childhood, or whatever. And again, I don't want to say, you know, if you had a bad childhood, you get a free pass on whatever you do. But you can see where kind of the foundation of that was, was laid. And so one thing I like to really encourage people to do is, if you are someone that really likes the true crime genre, you want to make a difference in people's lives. But you don't want to do something crazy, like I did and go out and become a PI, I already take that kind of leap, mentor at risk youth. Those kids don't always have someone that is showing them what the better choice is. And so if you can be that person, whether it's through sports, or scouting, or youth group at church, or whatever it happens to be, if you can help those kids learn that there's a better way, learn how intentional you have to be to stay on that path, then you are making a difference.

Rodney Olsen 

I know that in your job, you must put yourself into risky situations, and there's probably quite often danger there. What are some of the most dangerous situations that you found yourself in?

Lori Morrison 

I actually try to avoid danger every time I possibly can. I am certainly not someone. Yes, thank you. I'm not someone that courts that. So there are cases I've actually turned down. Because I think that the personal danger is really more than I'm equipped to take on. There may be other people that are there better that they should be doing that particular case, probably the most dangerous one I've ever been involved with. Didn't seem that dangerous to begin with. And I was very fortunate. I was working with a team of investigators. And so they were mostly more experienced than I. So I was able to just really soak in their knowledge and their experience. They were all extremely kind, very mentoring. But we were working a case that had been a determination of suicide, the family, for good reason, did not believe it. And so we were investigating and doing some interviews. And it turned out that we found some information that there was perhaps some official cover up maybe possibly even misconduct and ties to some human trafficking. And that is a very dangerous area to work in. And we did not pursue that angle because it really didn't bear too much on the case itself. It was just kind of peripherally a part of it. I was very glad to be in a group. I try not to do a lot of things. One on one, if there might be any, any way that things are gonna go sideways. I usually take another investigator with me. My husband's gone with me before he's not an investigator, but he's just there to be a person because there's you know, so At a numbers, there are dangerous situations. And I let people that are better equipped than I to handle those maybe people that are ex military, ex police, that kind of thing. I do a lot of document recovery, that kind of that kind of evidence recovery, interviewing of witnesses. And a lot of times just writing out timelines, people have given different accounts of what happened. And when you start laying everything out and just writing it out in linear fashion, you realize, okay, I can't tell who's lying, but somebody's lying here. Because this could not have all happened the way everybody is explaining that it did. And so again, just kind of putting that puzzle together. A lot of investigative work is kind of behind the scenes like that,

Rodney Olsen 

In the middle of everything that you're discussing here. There's this internal scream for justice, and I can't help but think that this is really a part of the Father's heart. So I imagine that as you do spend that time in Scripture, as you do spend that time with God, there is something there that renews you to go back in as difficult as it may seem to actually see justice happen.

Lori Morrison 

I think a lot about Micah 6:8, where the writer says, What does your God one of you, He wants you to do justice, love, mercy, and walk humbly with your God. And so I try to balance those things. That, yes, we're going to seek justice. And yes, we're going to try to temper that with mercy. But most of all, we're going to be humble and realize that God is on the throne and is in control. And we're just trying to work out his purposes. And I've also come to learn, the longer I do this, is that justice can have different meanings. Not every case is going to be able to be resolved with this was the perpetrator, we bring them to court, we get a conviction. And then we go on with our lives, you're never going to be able to put a victim back in the position they were in before the incident happened to them. That would be true justice, restore everybody to where they were. That's simply not possible. So then we can look at our system of justice in whatever society we live in. And again, for different reasons. It's just not always possible to achieve that measure of justice. But some families find justice in knowing the truth. And again, being able to reclaim the narrative of what happened. If it's been put out there in a way that the family feels is false, or dishonouring.

Rodney Olsen 

We've tackled a lot of heavy stuff here. But I imagine that there are occasions when there is a lighter side to this investigation, or the humorous moments amongst all of the heaviness.

Lori Morrison 

Oh, sure. One of my favorites, the case that I talked about, where I worked with a group of investigators, we were from different parts of the country and media company had wanted to do a story on this. And so we volunteered our time, but they paid our expenses to come in and do this. And so we were all staying together at a giant Airbnb. And I remember, everybody came in different times of the evening, because we were coming from different places. And so the next morning, the first morning, we were all there together. We sat up in the dining room to kind of have a war room a little bit. We had already planned out what we were going to do. But we're just going over last minute things and did anything need to change and who was doing what and all that. And one of the investigators who is a security expert, he pulls a big like Rubbermaid tub out from under this table and sets it up on top and says, Okay, what does everybody want? And he pulls the lid off. And he said, I've got 22s, I've got this. And I'm thinking, I've never been to a staff meeting where they armed you. That was fascinating to me. And so I didn't carry anything my job in that particular operation was to kind of be the, the head of the nerve center, the operation center. So as people were going out, when they needed information, I was pulling information for them if they couldn't locate someone and they needed an alternate address. I was finding that for them and and keeping track of where everybody was because, you know, we were dealing with what we felt was criminal activity. And so you won't keep tabs on everybody. So that was my job. Kind of command central. But I did kind of geek out a little bit. And as we were going back to the airport, when everything was over, this particular investigator shared one of our rental cars back because his flight was at about the same time that ours was. And so I said, Can I carry one of the gun cases into the airport? Because I just want to be able to say that I did that. And he's like, Okay, if that makes you happy? Sure. And so I learned that when you take a gun into an airport, you immediately go to security, and declare, here's my gun, you take it, you know, there, there are little, little moments like that, that keep you sane.

Rodney Olsen 

Now, we've talked a lot about your work as an investigator, but coming right back to where we started, was talking about your podcast, and your your podcast is all about true crime and started out, as you mentioned, as really a book review of true crime books, and it's, it's gone from there. But I know that it's been very helpful for people, it hasn't just been something to entertain. But it's been something that has helped people along the way as well.

Lori Morrison 

Well, that is certainly my hope. And it's, it's so wonderful. When I hear from a listener, which I did, just a couple of weeks ago, I had done an episode about fraud. And the the crime itself was a man who not only committed fraud after fraud, but he was the first known person to use the internet, to lure victims, he was a serial killer as well. And so you know, we think of most serial killers as being kind of the roaming person that's out there looking for victims, he was just sitting at home, drawing them to himself through the internet. And so I interviewed a fellow PI, and she was also a fraud expert. And so like I said, before, you know, not many of us are going to encounter serial killers in our lives, hopefully. And so we talked about the fraud aspect for the listeners, what they could do to recognize fraud, protect themselves. And I had a listener, reach out to me over social media and said, Oh, I listened to that episode. And someone had tried to scam me. And now I know where I can go, to get resources to protect myself. That is what it's all about protecting ourselves protecting our loved ones. And I also try to encourage people again, step up and get involved, there are so many ways that you can make a difference in victims lives, or in heading off people, hopefully, being a victim, that are easy, they're safe, and they involve skills you already have. And so trying to encourage people, making them aware of wonderful nonprofits that they might be able to get involved with. And even something just as simple as sharing a podcast episode. I do highlight unsolved crimes, from time to time. And just sometimes getting that information out in the public. Someone who knows something, may say, oh, gosh, I didn't even realize that was still unsolved. Maybe I should tell the police this. Or maybe it's been a cold case where you were close with the perpetrator. And so you know, some things well, now that relationship has soured, you're not so close, maybe you're ready to talk. You know, I don't want it to be just entertainment. And I hate to even use that word, but I want the entertainment value, the knowledge value of the stories, to bring people in to listen. And then I want to bring in a mix of wonderful guests who have all this knowledge and all the the resources that I don't have, that we can share with people.

Rodney Olsen 

And I'm sure that talking to a lot of the people that you do on the podcast, is actually helping you to sharpen your skills as an investigator as well.

Lori Morrison 

Oh, for sure. One of the favorite sayings I have is, we're all smarter together than any of us are by ourselves. And so I love a team approach in almost everything. These type of cases almost always take a team approach, the lone wolf PI, who can do it all by themselves. That is very rare, because I'm certainly not a ballistics expert. I'm not a forensic expert. I'm not a statement analysis expert. I'm learning just enough about all of these things. That when a case I have needs someone like that, I know who to go to.

Rodney Olsen 

If people are wanting to find The Unlovely Truth, your podcast, where's the easiest place for them to go?

Lori Morrison 

It's on Podbean, Apple, Stitcher. Most of your your major podcast hosts have picked it up. You can find it there. You can go to my website, theunlovelytruth.com. The episodes are all there. You can also email me, [email protected] or you can find me on Facebook at The Unlovely Truth or Instagram, The Unlovely Truth Podcast.

Rodney Olsen 

And Lori we will put links to those various places to get in touch with you in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net. But I've got to say it has been an absolute delight to speak to you to get some of your knowledge of places that most of us don't go. But thank you so much for your time today.

Lori Morrison 

Thank you and thank you for your podcast. You have had some fascinating guests on that are educating people in all kinds of different areas. So you're doing a real public service and I appreciate it.

Emily Olsen 

Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net

Yvonne Rempel faced trauma from the day she was born. Her childhood left her with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Following a difficult upbringing, she experienced a life transformation in her early 20s. She’s come a long way since then and now helps others break free from their past to become the person they were meant to be. She co-founded Damascus Experience and co-hosts the podcast On the Road to Damascus.

https://www.damascusexperience.com/

https://www.damascusexperience.com/podcast

https://beacons.page/DamascusExperience

https://www.facebook.com/DamascusExperiences

https://www.instagram.com/damascusexperience/

(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)

Emily Olsen 

Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen 

Welcome to Bleeding Daylight. Please remember to share this episode with others and connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. You can follow Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts. It's free and it'll ensure you never miss an episode.

My guest today faced trauma from the day she was born. Her childhood left her with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. How do you come back from such a harsh upbringing? We’ll find out soon.

Today's guest had a difficult upbringing before beginning a life transformation in her early 20s. That was quite a number of years ago and she’s come a long way since then. She now helps others break free from their past to become the person they were meant to be. She co founded Damascus Experience, which we'll explore a little later and co hosts the podcast On the Road to Damascus. It's my great honor to introduce you to Yvonne Rempel. Yvonne, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.

Yvonne Rempel 

Hi, thanks for having me.

Rodney Olsen 

I mentioned that your upbringing was difficult. But that probably doesn't even come close to describing your early years helped me understand what life was like for you as a child.

Yvonne Rempel 

Well, my early years were difficult. I have ... My psychologist has said PTSD because I had numerous traumatic experiences as a young child. So my upbringing was very unusual. My mother, when the day that I was born, my mother didn't want me, my stepfather named me, my grandmother gave me my middle name. And then they sent me home with my mom. So that was a pretty rough start to to a beginning, that should have been such a joyous occasion. And then I found that, you know, by the time I was aged five, that there was a way to behave so that you didn't get repercussions. So you weren't beaten, so that you weren't called names. So that those moments that happened, you know, you just learnt to protect yourself as a child really early on, so that you didn't have to encounter that type of abuse. So yeah, my childhood was was pretty rough and very different than most people.

Rodney Olsen 

You're talking about postnatal depression, perhaps, at the start, but obviously, it's more than that if this has gone on, and you've had to learn to behave in a certain way. So was that the start of it? Or was it just that your mother didn't want children at all?

Yvonne Rempel 

No, actually, my mum went on to have four more children. My mom had me under certain circumstances that were not great and those circumstances have actually been a secret even to this day. So I don't really know the reason and having to live with the unknown, and not understanding why these things were happening over and over and over again, really played a part in my childhood. You know, when when I tell my own kids when they were younger? Hey, there's a reason why you're doing this. So this is how we adjust this is how we correct there was never any direction on how to correct something, because they never knew what I did.

Rodney Olsen 

That makes life very difficult. Was that kind of abuse coming both from your mum and your stepdad or is this just something that your mum played out in your life in those early years?

Yvonne Rempel 

My mom was the biggest factor, my stepdad was actually only in my life for another three years after I was born. And then there was another step that that came into my life at 12 years old. So the majority of the time was just in my mum, me and I had two siblings at the time. So the abuse was predominantly me and her. And when she would get frustrated with the other kids, I already knew enough to step in, and directed at me so that they didn't have to suffer those consequences. Because they didn't know what they did wrong. You know, you're a child and you accidentally drop something or you accidentally break something, or it's an accident, you clean it up and you move on. But the consequences is being slapped in the face or thrown across the room or locked in a bedroom with no food, those types of consequences. You know, you never understand them. Because when you have friends, and they tell you the things that happen in their home, we don't understand it. So my mind just never wrapped around why those things were happening.

Rodney Olsen 

I know that you're someone who feels very deeply and it seems that this is something that started at a young age because you had the courage to step in and take punishment that wasn't yours, even at that early age to protect the rest of the family. Do you recognize that as something that is outstanding for a child of that age?

Yvonne Rempel 

Yes, I do. I didn't realize that at the time. To me that was a normal behavior. This is what you do. When you have siblings, you protect them that that all costs. And then you don't realize it until later on when you start having your own family and you realize children shouldn't have to protect each other from their parents this this should be the safe place for them. So you know when people tell me stories of my childhood and how I would do certain things, the most of the key word is that I was adaptable to every situation that I was in because I was protecting those around me, and I was trying to protect myself.

Rodney Olsen 

When did you start to realize you mentioned talking to your friends, you realize that that wasn't the same situation for them at home. So when did you start to realize that what you were experiencing was not normal?

Yvonne Rempel 

I started experiencing that when our Child Family Services started showing up at my school, probably about grade one or grade two, they started arriving at the school and they started talking to me. The only thing with that is that every time they came in, they talked to me, we moved in, we switch schools, every time there was an incident and my mom got caught, we moved. So it became very difficult for an organization that's supposed to protect you can they can protect you if they can't find you. And so that became a recurring theme, right, where we went into running and hiding, so that nobody else knew what was happening. So there was shame that was coming out of what was happening. But then also a lack of understanding that was happening.

Rodney Olsen 

And at the same time, this is the age where most of us start to form friendships that are going to last, if not forever, for at least a number of years, where we can feel that security outside the family at least. And you were even being robbed of this.

Yvonne Rempel 

Yeah, I didn't have friends and having friends was very difficult for me. I wasn't allowed to do things that most kids were, you know, on top of making sure that my brother and sisters were taking care of, you know, I took care of them. You know, when they came home from school, I made their home, I did their homework with them. I made sure they were bathed, I cleaned the house, I did the laundry. So in essence, by the time I was seven years old, I was raising two other children, the mothering instinct, that should have been something that I gotten when I had my first child actually kicked in for me, at seven years old.

Rodney Olsen 

And you're in those very early years, as life progresses, you come to that stage of adolescence of trying to find your own way. How did it play out for you, in those sorts of years,

Yvonne Rempel 

We talk about the destruction of a childhood, you know, when there's abuse, and there's trauma, and there's things like that, but but there's structure, right? So I knew my part I played, I knew those moments that I needed to be there, I knew all of that. And so at 17, I was kicked out of the house, and I went on a very destructive path. Because I didn't have no options. I had no structure. I didn't know who I was, other than, you know, raising my brothers and sisters, you know, other than trying to please my mother. When I left home, and I was out in the world, I got into some things that, you know, those are the kinds of things that you don't really want people to get into, you know, drugs and drinking. And I tried to find my worth. And I tried to find my place, you know, with other people, with friends with men, you know, it was a very destructive time in my life.

Rodney Olsen 

And how was that separation from you, and your siblings, you spent all these years where you're trying to protect them, and you're effectively being a mum, in absence of your own mother doing that task? How did it feel when you were wrenched away from them,

Yvonne Rempel 

it was actually very difficult. So when I left my home, I never went back. And I spent many, many years not talking to my mother. And to this day, I still don't talk to her. But my siblings, it took them at least a good seven to eight years to understand that I was allowed to leave, and that the emotions they felt when I left, it was not my fault. And so we had to come to an understanding that I was not their mom. But they were extremely devastated. And they blamed me for everything that happened after I left because I was supposed to be there to protect them.

Rodney Olsen 

So again, they feeling not quite sure where to turn and and blaming you for and I've heard this before of people who have got out of a situation or being kicked out of home. And yet the story that's being told back at home is is quite different. And again, it is part of that manipulation. So from what you've understood from what your siblings have told you, that manipulation continued, even against you at that stage.

Yvonne Rempel 

Yeah, and it still continues to this day from my understanding. But definitely in the first couple years, when I left, there was rules, like you're not allowed to say my name. All the pictures in the house of me were removed. So there was a manipulation that was happening, and I was made up to be the bad guy for everything that was happening because I was the one who left

Rodney Olsen 

And all this time you're trying to find your sense of self, your sense of identity, and trying to at least Please someone and this is, as you've said, leading you down destructive paths. When did you know that you had hit rock bottom,

Yvonne Rempel 

I knew I hit rock bottom when I actually woke up in a place that I didn't know, after a couple of days that I didn't remember, this epiphany kind of struck me going, this is not the life that I fought my entire life. You know, going through my life, I had this intuition, this guiding, you know, where I would go to school, but I would get good grades, because one day I was going to go to university and I was going to protect other kids in the world, or one day, I was going to do something good with my life, because out of this bad, there had to be something good coming out of it. And so when I, when I was growing up, I was very, I was guided by this deep intuition, you know, of right or wrong and how I should move and, and where I should go and the person I wanted to be. And when I fell out of that structure, I really, really lost that. And I lost that intuition, because they started doing drinking, and I started doing drugs to numb all the pain that came crashing down out of that structure. So when I hit that rock bottom, I sat there and I said, this was not how this was supposed to go. I didn't live my whole life fighting for something to end up going down the the wrong path that I wanted to go,

Rodney Olsen 

we can put up with an awful lot in life if there is just a little bit of hope. And it sounds like that intuition that you had, there was a sense of hope in there. Do you believe at that stage, you had lost that hope? Or was there a moment within that sense of rock bottom, that there was still hope that you had turned things around?

Yvonne Rempel 

No, I definitely lost that hope. I lost a vision of a future. And that's really what it what it was, you know, when I was living at home, even going through those moments of abuse, or things that shouldn't have been happening, there was still a hope that one day I was gonna leave, one day I was gonna do better. One day, I do better by my own self. But when you hit that rock bottom, you just you lose all of that sense of hope you lose yourself, you lose your vision for your future. And when you don't have that to really you cling on to what's the point of just trying to do anything with your life?

Rodney Olsen 

So you've woken up in a place that you don't know, there's days missing in your memory, that you just don't know, what has happened? Where do you move from there?

Yvonne Rempel 

Well, it actually it took me a little while to move from that point, you know, my deep sense of being needed and worth, you know, was still wrapped up in people. So I would do anything to do to please people, because it really I really needed that in my life. That was my that was my sole identity was being worthy. And so you know, it didn't really turn around until I actually got pregnant with my first child at the age of 18.

Rodney Olsen 

Was it then that you realized, I'm now responsible for another life? I need to clean up? What caused you to start to turn things around? Because you'd been responsible for children before they weren't yours? They were your siblings. But you still spiraled out of control? What was it that was different this time?

Yvonne Rempel 

You know, honestly, there wasn't much of a difference. I guess it was really in shock. Number one, because he I shouldn't have gotten pregnant. And number two, it was never in my plan to have kids, because I never ever want any children in the world to ever experience what I experienced. So in my plan that I had in my life, I was never going to have children. Never. So when I got pregnant, and I was like, Oh, well, I knew instantly I knew I needed to be responsible. I knew I wanted to do different for this child. And so I needed to start going the right direction and start cleaning up my life. enough that I could help this child have a better upbringing than I did.

Rodney Olsen 

So you're still in your late teens, how do you start to form a new life when you've really come from this destructive past? And you're trying to find a better way forward? How do you start to make that happen?

Yvonne Rempel 

At first, I tried to do it on my own. I tried to put in rules I tried to put in structure. So I tried to really build a structure in my life again, right because it was the time that I was, even though he wasn't thriving. It was a time where there was structure and I kind of knew who it was. So I started putting the structure in place. But when I put this structure in place, I had a lot of baggage I realized that came with it. And there was a lot of things have never been dealt with in my life. And so here I am at 18 you know i shortly turned him 19 right after I have my boyfriend who's sitting beside me, though the father of our child, you know, we're sitting in this apartment and we're like, now what do we do? You know, how do we move forward? Because this was never in the plan for either one of us, how do we move forward. And so at the time, we were living a couple provinces away from our family. And so we moved back closer to his side of the family, learning that there is families that live very differently than you. I remember, I walked in when I met his family, and I went, see you guys sit up the table to eat suffered together, you guys talk to each other. That's a real thing. How composites and plant pants are not flying at each other. When you're arguing like, there's another way to live, I started realizing that the way that I grew up was not normal. And that there was other people who experience life vastly different than I did, which I kind of had a little bit understanding. But now I'm looking through different eyes. And so I started looking at other people around me and other families around me going, how do you do that. And what I did is I started imitating them, and how they lived a life, because I liked the way they were doing it.

Rodney Olsen 

And some of his hope is now starting to return. Because you can see that it is possible to live in a different way. You said you started with structure. But obviously that's not going to take you all the way what else happened in your life, that was going to start making things turn around for you,

Yvonne Rempel 

I started learning that there is people who want to be in your life, not to take things from you. And what I mean by that is that there's people who want to be in your life in a relationship without needing to have a transaction have some kind of relationship with you. And that was really started when my so my boyfriend, he's not my husband, but at the time, he had an encounter with God. And he started going back to church, and he would take our son with him at six months old. And he said, Do you want to come to church with me? And I said, Nope, I've never been a church in my life. I'm pretty sure it's the weirdest thing in the world. They're going to know I'm weird. So I'm not going to go. He said, Can I go with our son? Would that be okay? And I said, Okay, that's good. I'll have Sunday mornings to myself, you go to church. So he started doing that. And then he started going to church and then going to his mom and dad's house for one chapter. And then I was like, Well, why am I being all alone, sitting here, I want to have lunch over there. So then what we did is that I would go with him to his mom and dads before he went to church. And then I would stay in their house until they were back from church so that I can have lunch with them. So I started doing this, this weird kind of dipping my toe in, something's different. I don't really understand it, it's going to blow my structure that I carefully put in place. And then one day, my father in law said to me, You know, I know that you don't like to go with us to church, because you don't know anybody. But I'm a long distance trucker. If I come off the road, I don't really know anybody. Would you go to church with me on the days that I'm off the road? And I'm thinking in my head church once every four weeks, okay, well, that's the price I'll pay so that I can hang out with everyone, because I really didn't want to be alone. And then I started going to church. You know, people say that they have these encounters the moment they walk through the door and I tell you from the moment I walked through the door, I had an encounter where God spoke to me and I don't think from that moment I was ever the same.

Rodney Olsen 

What do you feel God was saying to you in that moment, when you walk through the doors of that church, that you resisted so much? What was this message that God was giving to you?

Yvonne Rempel 

The message the pastor was speaking that day was on forgiveness. The reason I never wanted to walk into the church is because I didn't feel like I belonged. I felt like there was a lot of things I did that I didn't deserve to be one of those Christian people who sat in a pew on Sunday, right? I lived a hard life. I did things that, you know, people would be appalled by and I was like, they can't they're there's no way that they would accept me. You know, I'm a lost cause. I'm one of those people that they talk to outside the church, but to actually be in a church that was I was like, No, and I sat down for my very first Sunday, and the pastor was preaching on forgiveness, and how Jesus atone for everyone sin, and how Jesus forgave everyone for what they did. And I was like, Who is this person who would forgive me who I have never known in my life and He would just forgive me, that doesn't make sense because that doesn't line up with anything I knew in my entire life.

Rodney Olsen 

Forgiveness is an interesting thing. And you're starting to get this message. And you're starting to realize I need to respond to this in some way. And I want to explore that too. But I am interested, what was more difficult for you? Was it accepting the fact that there was a God who was prepared to forgive everything? forgive everything that you had done? Or was it actually starting to forgive some of the other people that had brought trauma into your life? Where do you think that tussle was for you?

Yvonne Rempel 

You know, the tussle actually was more that there was a God who loved me unconditionally and there was nothing I needed to do to earn it and that was the hardest thing I had to reconcile in my life. Because love for me, came at a cost in everything in my life, up to that moment, being loved, meant being abused by my mom, being loved, meant having to be the mom, to my brothers and sisters, being loved meant having to go a different direction in my life with my boyfriend, you know, so there was so many different things, love cost, something to me, it is was it was a something that has been in my life for many years. So when somebody told me that God loves me, and there was zero cost to that, I spent a good chunk of time reading the Bible, not to find out who God was. But to prove that there is no way that somebody loves you without a cost.

Rodney Olsen 

There are still many people today who would say that, there still is a cost that we still have to live for God's approval, and we have to work so hard at it. And yet the the message that I'm sure you found in those scriptures in the Bible, as you are reading it is that No, there's nothing we can do. That is going to earn us any more forgiveness.

Yvonne Rempel 

Yeah, somebody who has ever read the Bible, it was a little bit shocking. When you open it up, and you read it, and you're like, Okay, so I'm gonna find all of this, it's a big book, you're gonna find something right? people disagree about the Bible all the time, they argue theology. And every time I read it every time I opened it up, and every time I looked at it, it was like, God was telling me, there's nothing you can do Yvonne, there's nothing you can do in your life, that would change my mind. And you don't have to earn it. You don't have to be somebody to on what I'm freely giving you. And so reconciling that in my life, and just accepting it was the biggest step I had to do in the process of healing, and forgiving other people.

Rodney Olsen 

How long did it take for you to make a decision to accept all of this from that first time? When you walk through the doors? And you're confronted with this message about forgiveness? Was that the moment for you? Or did you continue to wrestle with this for a while, until you said, Yes, I'm ready to accept this.

Yvonne Rempel 

For me, I accepted Jesus, probably two weeks after I went to church. But I accepted it because I wanted to be part of the community. And then I was baptized three months later, because you know, reading the Bible, I went, people get baptized. So I'm going to do that also. And then it actually took quite a few years to fully comprehend what it meant to just live in his presence, and just to live with his unconditional love. And all through that time, like all those years that I wrestled with this and all those years, he was showing me in so many different ways, how he loved me, and that he wasn't requiring me to do anything in return for it.

Rodney Olsen 

And that must have been an enormous wrestle. Because you've been conditioned from the day you were born. That this is not how life is. And yet, there comes this powerful message of transformation that you finally start to accept and start to understand more and more what it's about, what did that do for your life, for your family, for your husband, for your child?

Yvonne Rempel 

Well, I had a couple couple of really radical moments that really changed my life. And so one of them with my husband, you know, when you bring a lot of baggage into your marriage for both parties, and we really needed some counseling, uh, you know, so after being married for quite a few years, and I remember sitting in the counseling room with him. And there was two things my counselor said to me, number one, he said evil and I would never be married to you because I could never make you happy. And I realized that I viewed my husband as a knight in shining armor to save me from my terrible life that I lived because that was the fantasy that I escaped from when I was a child. And that's how I viewed him as the person who had saved For me, and I put all my hopes and dreams on him, which was, you know, very unhealthy and very damaging to our relationship. And when he said that, I realized that my happiness didn't come from him, it came from me, and that I had to be responsible for making my own self happy. And then the second thing for my own children, and I remember this, so clearly, it was three o'clock in the morning, we just we had a campfire the night before. And a three o'clock in the morning, I was woken up. And I could hear God was telling me I want to talk to you. And so I go outside, it's a beautiful summer day in Canada, right? It's Summer Night in Canada, it's so dark, the stars are out, I go by the fire, the embers are still glowing. And he said to me, Yvonne, I want you to train up your children. And I didn't know what that meant. And I had to spend the time looking at what that meant, and finding people who understood what that meant. But when I dedicated training up my children is God asked me, What I found was I he redeemed my childhood, by allowing me to be the mom that my mum never could be. He redeems my childhood and allowing me to relive it with my own children. And so when I submitted to allowing God to love me, I learned that I could love people in a way that I didn't know was possible.

Rodney Olsen 

I want to take a slight detour here, because you've mentioned a number of times that God has spoken to you mentioned, when you first walked into the church, there was that experience of hearing him through the words of the pastor who was preaching on forgiveness. And now you're you've been sitting around a fire and you believe God is telling you to train up your children. There will be people listening at the moment who say, well, I've never heard God talk. Explain a little of that to us. How do you hear God talk to you?

Yvonne Rempel 

What I learned was, and this is many, many years later, that hearing God comes in many different forms. And when I say I hear God, I have never, I've heard his audible voice one time in my life. But when I say that, I heard him I'm talking about this really deep intuition that guides you in life, you know, that, that those intuitions moments when you're standing at a crossroads in life, and everything in your gut is telling you to go one direction. For me, I have crazy feelings, and my feelings, and we call it being a feeler. And for anybody else who doesn't know what that means. It's called being an empath. And so what it is, is that my feelings guide me, in my life, I'll feel empathy towards somebody, or I'll feel sad, sitting beside somebody because they're sad. So really, I had this deep intuition from very, very early on in my life. And I realized that it was some something that really guided me. So when I realized that there was language to it, and it was actually very biblical, that, you know, being guided by God, I started putting language to something that I never knew existed and I realized that God actually talks to me all the time. I just didn't know it and so I started really discovering what that look like.

Rodney Olsen 

How much of a comfort was it for you to start to realize that even way back in those early days, when you were talking then about having that sense of intuition, that sense of feeling, and that understanding, that was God knocking on the door, all the way back then,

Yvonne Rempel 

For me when I took a soul care class, so I spent a good 10 years of my life, you know, when I, you know, just really quieted myself, close my mouth a lot allowed God to love me, heal me and just be a really good wife and mom as best as possible and learn how to do that. I did counseling, and I did you know, lots of psychologist and I did a class called soul care. And in the soul care class, I remember it was a class on forgiveness, and we had to forgive things in my life. And one of the moments was, where was Jesus in your life? And up until then, I was like, he was not really in my life. I never, I always pictured him as this, you know, spirit that always sat beside me when I was sad, you know, somebody who was there, but not there. And for me, though, up until then, you know, like, I could accept love, I could trust him. I can move forward. But a lot of the healing needed to come from is why weren't you there? God? Why weren't you there to protect me? Why were you there when things were going wrong? And as I sat in my class, somebody said to me, but Yvonne, he was there with you. And all of a sudden it was like God took me back to the parts of my life that I could remember. And he goes, I was there. I was the neighbor that got you and your sister out of a storm, and called the police so that you can go home, I was a police officer that picked you up instead of going home with somebody you should never have gone home with. I was a neighbor who made sure that you had food in your fridge and who took care of you. And I started realizing that God was not just this spiritual guide. In the back part of my life. He was the hands and feet on earth and people who were there to minister to me, I just didn't know it.

Rodney Olsen 

One more thing I'm interested in, as you say that there's this intuition, this sense of feeling. We know that our feelings can be deceptive. How do you draw the line between what you know? is God speaking to you through those feelings? And what are just the normal everyday feelings that we all have? Which are so often self centered?

Yvonne Rempel 

That's a that's a great question. I actually do a lot of teaching on being a feeler because we tend to be guided by our feelings. What I do know. And everything that I've learned is that when people who are feelers are guided highly by their feelings, we are a disservice to the world when we are not healthy. Because we act out of our own filters and our own unhealthiness and our own emotions. So for me, when I realized that I was a feeler, one of the things I needed to know was how to be healthy. Because I could not feel anything from God, I was no good if I couldn't figure out my own emotions inside of me. So when I, when I went through all of my healing, right, I mean, a good chunk of it, we still heal to this day, but what I went through the biggest chunk of my healing, I realize that that really stopped a flow of feeling what God felt for people on earth. And so to stay in that over my emotions, it's daily meditation, it's daily sitting with him, it's daily reading of the Bible, it's keeping him in the forefront of everything that I do, so that my emotions don't creep in. And when he's trying to speak to me,

Rodney Olsen 

I mentioned in the introduction, that these days, you're actually helping others. And part of that is Damascus Experience, told me about that

Yvonne Rempel 

Damascus Experience was a promise that God gave me 12 years ago, I went to a conference called Catalyst. And I had this moment in the evening where somebody was speaking, and they were talking about that God gave him a promise. And then he said, I just feel like there's other people who, you know, God's giving a promise to. And that was one of those moments where I had this deep sense of feeling this intuition. And God said to me, one day, you're going to do what he is doing. And in my mind, I was like, Oh, I'm going to stand on a stage, and I'm going to talk to people and gods, like, you're going to help people out of your story, you're going to help people. 12 years later, I finally you know, after many times of healing, learning about my identity, you know, really fine tuning what God was trying to say, and do it from a place of health, I realized Damascus Experience was what he was trying to get me to build. And that was allowing people to really encounter the presence of God in their life, especially in those moments, where they feel hopeless, where they don't know him, you don't where they are standing at a crossroads. We all have Damascus moments in our lives. And those are the moments that build our faith in our history with God, for us to continue on our journey of life. And so we facilitate experiences through coaching and consulting, at EA Park coaching and consulting. And we're actually developed another course, where we're going to help with the royal priesthood, walking in the authority of Christ. And what that is, is it's equipping people to continue on their journey, and not being held up by the world.

Rodney Olsen 

And on top of Damascus Experience, you have a podcast, which I imagine is along the same lines as Damascus Experience, especially seeing it's called On the Road to Damascus. Tell me what sorts of things you are talking about in that podcast.

Yvonne Rempel 

You know, we actually have a lot of guests on our podcasts. And what we want to do is we want to bring hope to people to let them know that God is not done with their story. And as you can see, hope is is a reoccurring theme in my life, you know, hoping for a better tomorrow hoping for a future hoping which are all promises that God gave us in the Bible. But you know, a lot of it, I think When I didn't have hope, I had to look at other people who were a little bit ahead of me in their lives. And they gave me hope that things were going to be better. So we like to have guests on our podcast where we share our stories of their Damascus moment, encouraging other people to keep going on their journey, because God's not done with it yet.

Rodney Olsen 

As you've mentioned, the healing continues. But you've gone through a large chunk of the healing that was required to bring you to where you are. Now, if you had the opportunity to reach back to that five year old seven year old girl that you were all those years ago, what would you say to her,

Yvonne Rempel 

I would tell her to keep dreaming, to keep dreaming, because there's going to be a point in your life where your dreams are going to come true. And they're not going to be anything that you imagine they're going to be, because they're going to be so much better than you could ever imagine. Yeah, five years old, you dream of things you're going to be. And I never knew I wanted to be a mom. And I never knew I wanted to be a wife. And I never knew I wanted to help people. But keep dreaming. And keep hoping because it does get better. Because God has not even started your story yet.

Rodney Olsen 

And to the person who's listening at the moment thinking, this sounds wonderful that evens been able to make this big change, but I'm too far gone. I can't see any way back from where I am. What would you say to that person?

Yvonne Rempel 

I would tell that person that that's not true. God will go anywhere to find you. Sometimes we need to sit still, so he can find you. And sometimes he doesn't mind running you down to get you. And so anybody who's listening to this, and they're like, yeah, I can't forgive, I can't. It's not about them. It's about you and who you are and who you were created to be. So there is no way that God wants you to stay where you are so have hope that he wants so much more for you.

Rodney Olsen 

I love the fact that your story is not yet over that it's going to continue to unfold, and that we get to be part of it to through things like Damascus experience and definitely through the podcast and we will put links to both those websites on the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet so that people can contact you. What is the easiest way for people to find you,

Yvonne Rempel  

you can just jump on our Instagram @damascusexperience, or our on our podcast, Instagram @ontheroadtodamascus and you can find us there. If you drop a comment. I will definitely respond to you.

Rodney Olsen 

Yvonne it's been wonderful hearing your story to hear how far you've come from where you've been. And as I say, I know that the story is not over yet. And we look forward to hearing a lot more from you in the future. But thank you so much for spending some time on Bleeding Daylight.

Yvonne Rempel 

Thank you so much for having me.

Emily Olsen 

Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net

Everret Maxine’s story is one of heartache, but it isn’t one of defeat. Everret is using the struggles and hurdles of her life to walk alongside others who are facing their own pain and hurt. Today we’ll hear how her life of loss has helped her to become an agent of healing. She believes that being a survivor carries responsibility and an opportunity to serve others. She uses her podcast the absence of her to share her life story, and the lessons she has learned as a way of helping others through their own dark times.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/theabsenceofher

https://www.facebook.com/IAmEverretMaxine

https://twitter.com/everretmaxine

https://www.instagram.com/iameverretmaxine

(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)

Emily Olsen 

Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen 

Everret Maxine’s story is one of heartache but it isn’t one of defeat. Everret is using the struggles and hurdles of her life to walk alongside others who are facing their own pain and hurt. Today we’ll hear how her life of loss has helped her to become an agent of healing.

Please remember to share this story with others and connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. You can follow Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts. It's free and it'll ensure you never miss an episode.

Everret Maxine Johnson has seen more than her fair share of heartache but she's now sharing the lessons that trauma and difficulty had taught her to help others. She believes that being a survivor carries responsibility and an opportunity to serve others. She uses her podcast the absence of her to share her life story, and the lessons she has learned as a way of helping others through their own dark times. It's my privilege to introduce you to her today, Everret, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.

Everret Maxine 

Good morning. Good morning.

Rodney Olsen 

Your story is one of loss in various ways and your first great loss began at a very young age, at just 10, help me understand what was happening for you at that time.

Everret Maxine 

Well, at 10, my mother and I were still living with my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, and her sister lived there as well. That was my great aunt. And me and my great aunt Lv, we were inseparable. She would create little games for me to play. And she was a lot older than I was when she passed, I think she was about 70. So she was like, it was like a 60 year difference, but we would play in the yard together, we would, we would just do all kinds of things together. And so when she passed, it was really hard for me. She went through two types of cancer and the last time she had, I believe it was a tumor in the stomach because she had two different things back to back and we had went to Astroworld, which was the theme park here in Texas. And I was having such a nice time. And I'm on a ride with my friend. And mind you I'm a 10 year old kid. And I look at my friend and it's not my friend. It's my aunt Lv sitting next to me, waving goodbye. I was just stunned, like what just happened. So I get back to my aunt Odessa's house. And we're there. And my uncle called to say that my great aunt surgery went fine. And he had left a message on the voicemail. And shortly after that, he called and said, she passed away. I beat my fist into the floor. I cried all night, I cried for days. Because here I was 10 years old, I didn't understand. And me and my friend had made her a welcome home sign. And I was so excited because I didn't understand death. You know, when you're a kid, you think everybody is immortal. And so that was really hard for me to understand.

Rodney Olsen 

So even before her passing, she was going through a very serious illness with the cancer. What was that like for you as a child, seeing someone that you loved going through that difficulty?

Everret Maxine 

Once she started going through, it was hard for me because she couldn't do the things that she used to do. And then she was relocated out of my grandmother's home to the nursing home, my mom worked back. Even though she was ill, I couldn't really tell other than her being in the nursing home until they had to shave her hair off for a surgery. And I believe that was the second surgery. And it was seeing her hair shaved off, her beautiful hair got gray hair gone. And she just didn't look like the same person. Now she looked like a sick woman. In my mind, I still thought that hey, this was my playmate, my great aunt, my friend, she was still going to recover from this.

Rodney Olsen 

I know it sounds like you're surrounded by family at this stage. There's your mother and Uncle another auntie. were they trying to explain to you what was happening at the time? Or do they feel you're a child? And we'll try and keep that away from you?

Everret Maxine 

You know, Rodney, nobody took the time to explain to me what was going on. I was an only child at the at the time and my mother always felt Well, she's intelligent, she understands. And I think people think when you're book smart, you understand all things and you don't like even kids that are really smart me life experiences explained to them,

Rodney Olsen 

I guess it must have been difficult for them at that time as well. Seeing a loved relative who's on the verge of passing away, but it would be difficult to not actually know what's going on until it happened. So how did you begin to find a way back from that? How did you begin to find healing?

Everret Maxine 

Well, I started attending church when after she passed away, there was a church around the corner, and I started going to the church at that time. My mom was not going to church with me. And I started participating in a youth group. And as a youth group, we had a youth matron who I'm still associated with now. And she was just like this great woman of God had all this positive energy. And I started being around other children my age because at that time, I had only been around my aunt really, I would go to school. But as far as like being around children my age I didn't spend much time with. So when I started going to church, I was learning about God and this awesome power of positive experience in this life and salvation and that was just like my source. Like, anytime they opened the church doors, even if it was the elders having a prayer service, I want it to be in the midst of that,

Rodney Olsen 

After this tragedy of losing your great art, you found something to hang on to. And it sounds like church was a great place of solace for you. But back at school, it wasn't all that easy, was it?

Everret Maxine 

No, it wasn't because my newfound love for Christ did not eliminate my reality. One thing about Christianity, and I had to learn that over the years, is that although believing in Christ gives us a positive hope, it doesn't mean you're not going to go through things. Like when you're a baby in Christ, should I say you think oh, well, I believe in Christ. So I'm not gonna go through anything. And at school, I was still kind of like an oddball. Like I say, my mom only birth one child. So I didn't really know how to fix my hair. And I didn't wear the latest trends. And I didn't really care too. That was my thing. I didn't have to feel like I needed to wear the latest trends. I just cared about bookwork. I like homework, I like test, I loved math class. And so the kids picked on me a lot.

Rodney Olsen 

So you're being picked on you're being bullied, I believe you're even skipping school at this stage. So something that you love you're trying to stay away from, because it's just too painful to be there. How did you reconcile those things of wanting to be there so much, and yet, knowing that, that's just going to bring extra pain for you?

Everret Maxine 

Well, I don't believe I just ever really reconciled it. I tolerated it. I never really learned how to do my school years defend myself. Due to junior high years, I would still go but I would go like half of the day, I would let up think my mother would think I've been to school all day, because she worked two jobs. So anything that was going on with me, it was putting me into a like a dark depression. I just really I didn't even you know, want to live or exist anymore. And one of the things that I talked about in the podcast is my attempts with suicide, and wanting to give up on life. I tried a number of times, but my relationship with God and knowing God, and knowing the basics of Heaven and Hell, even though I hated being on earth and felt like I was living in Hell, I was afraid that if I ended my life, I would end up in hell eternally. And so I kind of just feel like I was just stuck and had to pick up the pieces. Now once I got to me in high school, you think about college and things like that. And because my home life kind of wasn't, you know what everybody thought, I just figured, okay, if I buckled down, get the good grades, I can go off to college, and all of this life will be behind me. And well, it just didn't work out that way. But you know, I pushed through. I did graduate on time, I did graduate with honors as well.

Rodney Olsen 

And around the age of 16, your family life started to change to I believe.

Everret Maxine 

A whole lot things change. This is about in 1997 that my mother did get married. She got with him, I want to say in about 96. So during the time that my mother had got with her husband, I was a teenager, he had just been us for the most of our life. And so I was like, I'm not gonna live in this situation. I'll go live with my grandmother because we had moved out of my grandmother's house after my great aunt passed. I kept going back about I leave my mom's house, you know, I can't I can't do this. Because when she brought him into the picture, and I only speak about this because this was their past. They wants to deliver it from it. Call him my father. Now because he was there most of my life. He had a drug habit. She was still battling alcohol use. So that combined was just a toxic environment. At the point that my grandmother had accepted that hey, yeah, you know, maybe it'll be okay for you to come and stay. My grandmother passed away. So then they got married. My mom asked me what I attend a wedding and I told her No, I just couldn't. Because I believe if you attend a wedding and you sit Watch them exchange your vows. You agree to uphold those vows and support the marriage. And in my whole heart, I couldn't do that. I helped her get dressed for the wedding. You know, she wasn't beautiful that day, but I just could not attend.

Rodney Olsen 

That must have been a real struggle for you. Is there any time since then that you've regretted that or you still feel that that was the thing that you had to do in that moment,

Everret Maxine 

Even though they've both now passed on, I don't regret my decision. Because I knew that I couldn't support the marriage. I mean, I had my own wedding, I wouldn't want anybody whether they're blood or friend, to show up if they don't support.

Rodney Olsen 

So this is all still happening while you're still in your teenage years and these are the years that are the most formative years in our lives. And yet, it seems to be one trauma after another year, you've lost your great art, you've never lost your grandmother and and your mother is entering into a marriage that you you don't agree with? Again, where are you finding solace during this time? Where are you finding someplace to go to that is helping you through these difficulties,

Everret Maxine 

Our still crying out to God, because at this point, right about 16 was when I had stopped attending church, because when she got in the relationship, it was harder for me to go because it was like, I was radical for Christ, like I believed in Christ. And it was as if they were testing my faith, July of 1996, a couple of months before they got married, I had also been sexually assaulted, I had went to go stay with a friend from church and their family. And so nobody knew about it. And I waited about two months for I actually told anyone, but I kind of withdrew from the church, and the youth matron that I was close to we lost contact for some years. And so I just had to continue in my own faith. And with my own hope that once I graduated, I can just go to college and be free of the situation.

Rodney Olsen 

So you're holding this hurting side that you've not told anyone about what happens when you do graduate college? How does life start to turn at that point,

Everret Maxine 

Right before I graduate high school, I was accepted to several different colleges, Spelman College, and Georgia Liberty University in Virginia, just a number of colleges, but I was not allowed to travel outside the state. My parents didn't think that was the best choice. My mom had a hard time supporting my decision to go to college. She had gotten her GED at the age of 17, when she had her first marriage before I was born. And she had been a Nurse Aide for majority of her life. So she just kind of felt like, you know, why are you pursuing this college thing? Why can't you just get a job like normal people and save money because not many people in my family at that point had been to college. So my first semester I went off to Wharton junior college, and I enjoyed it. I still worked, but it none of my college experience was like, you know, get to go enjoy the clubs or the college experience. My first semester was spent at Wharton, and then I went to Baylor, which was highly expensive. So of course, on my own, I couldn't afford it. And I really couldn't afford to stay. So then I ended back at Wharton. From then there was some gaps for some years. Somewhere in there. I would do a couple of classes here and there. But I didn't get to really have a consistent college, career and experience.

Rodney Olsen 

So how did college continue for you? Did you manage to graduate? Where did you get to with your studies?

Everret Maxine 

Well, in January of 2005, I decided to pursue a degree in environmental health and safety after working in a couple of what we call shutdowns. After chemical plants. It's where they shut down the plant for maintenance. And so I would do like helper jobs or Firewatch jobs and fire watches just watch for fires I happen. I saw people being this job title call safety tech that paid really well. And so I went and got my associates degree in environmental health and safety. And I graduated with that in December 2007. Now seeking employment for that particular position really didn't work out in my favor. But I did end up continuing my bachelor's degree and I want to say I went back around oh eight and started on my bachelor's degree again. There was some delay. After I went back I started attending Texas Southern University. Originally my bachelor's degree was in communications and poly side because I wanted to be a attorney. And when I decided to continue it I said, Well, I want to do education, I had been a substitute part time here and there. And I really liked being in the classroom. So I'm happy to say, even though it took me several extra years, I just graduated with my Bachelors of education. With the content area of math and science grades four through eight, December 2020,

Rodney Olsen 

You finally got that graduation that you were looking for all those years, when we go back and look at those years where it was a struggle for you to have that college education and going between colleges, what was happening for you personally, what was happening in your personal life?

Everret Maxine 

Well, in 2008, I married my husband, my former husband, and we had been friends, since I was 12, the marriage was rather difficult, and I'll say on both ends, you know, Women liked to bash the men but we both had issues coming into the marriage. And so I thought that, you know, it was gonna just be this great relationship, because we had lived together before. And we had a lot of financial struggles. And so somewhere in there, he says, you know, me trying to pursue this degree was, you know, draining all our money, which really wasn't, again, I went through a relationship, just like with my mother of not having the support to pursue my degree, I put it on hold, I didn't think it would be five years because that was 2013, I decided not to pursue the degree anymore. And so when I went back to finish it, it was 2018, there was a lot of toxic discord between me and my former husband, that kind of just wore me out emotionally, because I already didn't have a good emotional foundation, and had already been through several traumas that I had not addressed that I didn't see as trauma. Because let me say this, I am from the black culture, and we don't advocate therapy and mental health awareness, and talking about your problems. We advocate, you know, pray about it, and it'll go away, or, you know, you know, don't tell anybody your secrets. And so I had literally buried a lot of that stuff in me. I've come to learn, though, when you bury that stuff it's still taking root in your life. And so I stayed in the marriage for 10 years, we were together almost 20. Before I finally said, I had had enough that it was time to let it go. From January of 2017. Until the end of last year, I was in therapy, learning whoever it is, it was quite an experience. Now I know how much damage not only that I was doing to myself, but also to him for going into a marriage and having unhealed wounds.

Rodney Olsen 

I've spoken to a number of people about the fact that so often we don't actually know what is normal when we're in a situation that is so outside what we would see as normal. We don't see it as such, because it's all we know was that a bit of the case for you that really, as far as marriage and relationships went you hadn't had that modeled and so you were just doing what you thought you should do

Everret Maxine 

With my parents, their marriage, even though they were close knit, they were always together. Like when they'd have arguments yelling and screaming was normal. When me and my former husband would get into it, yelling and screaming was normal, me throwing something in breaking something was normal, saying degrading things to each other, you know, to tear each other down. That was my normal. And so I didn't see anything wrong with that. People reproduce what they see.

Rodney Olsen 

And you had that difficulty of all these traumas backing up, and then just trying to act in the best way that you knew how you've already mentioned that you went into therapy. Did that start to turn the lights on for you to start to realize, aha, there is a different way of dealing with some of this drama?

Everret Maxine 

Oh, absolutely. There'll be took me to places I had never experienced it was nothing like I thought it would be it was with a Christian therapist. So I thought, Oh, she's going to tell them about Jesus loves you, blah, blah, throw some scriptures at me, and I'm not going to feel any type of way. But our first session was she dug into the sexual assault. That to me, you know, I just met this person, I don't know this person. And I'm like, Oh, that's what she wants to talk about. And it took me about three months before I began actually trusting her enough to open up and it was like layers were coming off. Because I learned that the mother is the foundation. And so because our relationship wasn't solid, and then we She got married, it was like, okay, I've never felt like I was first in your life. And then now here you are, you've married somebody and made him first. I don't have anybody. So then I get married, thinking this person is supposed to put me first. And when I felt like it was some disconnect, or he was putting me first, I just completely lost it. And sometimes it wasn't even the case. But I had all those insecurities that I didn't feel like I was somebodies priority.

Rodney Olsen 

So this whole time, there's this insecurity built right through your, your childhood. And again, that that teaching or that prevailing culture that says, We don't talk about our issues, we just stuffed them down. How was faith for you at this stage? Was that something you were still able to cling on to? Were you still able to reach out to God during this time? Or was this a time apart from him?

Everret Maxine 

In the marriage, we had stopped attending church after about the first five years into the marriage, there was some issues going on at the church we were at. So we had stopped going. In our own minds, we kind of just felt like we were okay. We would, you know, go gambling, we had loss of employment. We were kind of just as people say, doing me just living our own life. Now, as far as the miracles that God could do. I was believing he could turn things around. Because I believe it was about in 2004 that my mother who I said had the alcohol addiction. She collapsed at home and had been sick for some while but we thought it just was a regular chest call. And she collapsed and was life flighted, and was in the hospital for a month. For the first week in the hospital, she was comatose, the doctors didn't believe she was survive. And on the eighth day, she woke up and she gave me a call. She was in a state of paralysis. She had to learn to walk again. But her desire to drink and smoke she no longer had in my adulthood, I had a better relationship with her. And I had a better view of how God could change things. So my hope that God could change things was still there. But my desire to go to church to seek His word was not

Rodney Olsen 

What changed that for you. Because I know that you very much cling to God now what turned you around to face him and cling more tightly to him

Everret Maxine 

in 2014, my aunt Amanda, one of my mom's sisters, she suddenly passed away, out of nowhere in March of 2014. And I was at work when that happened. Fast forward to July of 2014, my father then passed my mom's husband going through that, it was just like, golly, these people were gone. And I need to do something to get myself in alignment with God. Because all my father asked for during his final days was his Bible. 2016, I lose another off. And in that same year was the year me and my husband separated. I had kind of felt like a huge disconnect from him. And it was it just seems like we were going in the same circles, no progress. And so I had started 2016, a lady that I was very close to Miss Mary Jane. She was in her 80s when she passed away. And her and I were good friends. She was also my us matron Teresa's mother. So we reconnected after about 15 years later. So I spent a lot of time at her home. And so I had time to separate myself from the things that were going on in my household. And I could see that this isn't good. And so she invited me to church. And so for a little while I didn't you know, accept the invitation. And then I finally started going. And as I started going and getting the word me again, and hearing the pastor preach, it felt like she was preaching to my situations. And one of the things that she said was that God changes people, you're going to wear yourself out trying to force people to change. My former husband had told me a number of things that he didn't want, he didn't care to do. And it was like I was still trying to force him to change and trying to force him to change. I was forcing myself to be unhappy. And so I finally got to a place in my life where when he walked out in my of my life in 2016 I was like this is gonna be the last time Because he had walked out in my life before, and I would beg him back or I would want the marriage to work, being a believer in Christ, and caring too much about what other people thought I would keep getting back in this marriage because I didn't want to fail. And I was afraid to fail, no matter how much damage it did to me emotionally.

Rodney Olsen 

And I know that as you came closer to God, that that was maybe preparing you for some more difficulties that were coming your way and losing someone very close to you.

Everret Maxine 

I gave it a couple of years, because I don't believe in immediately running to divorce. Two years down the road, I'm now establishing myself to be an adult on my own, because I had never lived on my own. In 2018 May 28, my grandmother, Roxy, she took her final breath. And it was the five year anniversary of her brothers passing. And my grandma, Roxy was my grandma by marriage, but she was still my grandma. We went to her bedside. And at her bedside, my mom was talking about when she had an asthma attack at work. And so me and my my brother, like you didn't mention that. And so she says, Oh, I don't tell y'all everything. And for some reason, it hit me in my gut that if my mother ever passed away, that would be what happened to her. So on that day, before we went to go see my grandmother at the nursing home, I tell my mom about the therapy, because here I've been in therapy over a year now. And I've never mentioned it to her because I didn't know what her take of it was going to be. And when I told her about the therapy, she said, I'm so glad you have somebody to talk to the Sunday, June 17. It was Father's Day. And I had a video that I was going to show my mom sent to my mom that I had of her standing at her husband's bedside during his final moments. But I said, If she's not thinking about him, I'm not going to upset her. And so late that night, it was about 11 o'clock till 11 o'clock that night. I just had this urge to go and be my mom. I'm crying, carrying on. And now I've moved out of town an hour and a half away. So I drive back home. I parked in the driveway. And I told my friend Theresa, I said, I'm going to sit here because I don't know why. But I'm crying for my mom. But sitting in their driveway was a little creepy. So I drove up to some family's property and just sat there. And then I drove home. Once my spirit got calm, I drove home, and I prayed. And I was praying over myself. For no thoughts of depression, no thoughts of suicide, just and I'm like, why am I praying like this? Well, Tuesday morning, I got a phone call as I'm going into therapy. It was my mom's job. And they said, Everret, please go check on your mother. She hasn't been to work. She had sounded bad when she left work that Friday. That Saturday, she had called them and told them she wasn't coming in. She was sick. And I will assume she was off that Sunday and Monday. And so Tuesday when she didn't show. They knew something wasn't right. My mother never calls in sick from work. She's never no call no show. So even before anybody told me anything, I knew she was already deceased. So I didn't call the authorities. And I didn't know that the person who had called me which was an in law at the time, she had also called my husband. And he cause him and my mom so had a decent relationship. And he had called one of my cousins and they had kicked in the door. Well, nobody wanted to tell me over the phone. So when I got to town I called and I asked is she gone. Nobody wants to tell me and I said I'm okay because I already feel that she's gone. And she had been she was sitting on the couch. She had been gone a couple of days. So I really feel like that Sunday, when I pulled up and was crying her spirit was already leaving. And that was a transforming moment for me for my life. And that is where my podcast came from. The Absence of Her.

Rodney Olsen 

The podcast seeks to call out things in other people when they're going through dark times. And I suppose not everyone is going to have a story that is just like yours, but people will see themselves in some of those dark times. And I know that one of the things that called you to actually start reaching out and helping others with the help that God was pouring into you was a very odd dream.

Everret Maxine 

I have a lot of visions, but I had this dream where I was, I didn't have any clothes on. And God said naked but not ashamed. Here, I was going through the separation going through this very public time in my marriage. My grandmother had passed, my mom had passed. And people are saying, Oh, you're so strong, you're so strong, you know. And I felt like you're I am presenting this lot of people because I go through things as well. And so in him saying naked, but not ashamed, was for me to uncover the things that I had been through. And don't be ashamed of your life experiences. But share them so that other people know that, hey, somebody went through this and survived, because the same year that my mother passed away, she passed away in June, I filed divorce shortly after it was final November 5, of 2018. And so a lot of people were in shock, because they thought the marriage was so good, I thought things are so good between us. And so that's what I just been began pouring out my life experiences and things that I had been through. And I love that God used me as that vessel, because I've had responses from mainly women of things that they have been through that they've never spoke about and they're happy that I've shared, because now they know that, hey, I'm not the only one that went through this.

Rodney Olsen 

You mentioned before that it's very much a cultural thing for you to hide the things that are going on inside. So are you finding that those who are responding are people from your own culture in that way, who have been brought up in that same way to be told you don't go to therapy, you don't tell people what you're going through, you just stuffed inside?

Everret Maxine 

Yes, there are a lot majority of them are from the black culture, they are open to sharing with me, so I pray for them. And I tell God, you know, use me wisely. And I share with about my mental health experience. Um, and I share about the therapy and the benefits of it. You can't force anybody to do anything. But if you know somebody that has gone through it, you're more likely to try it and say, Hey, I see that turn that person's life around. That's just like with, you know, being a Christian, everybody's not gonna run to the church, but they were gonna look at your life and say, you know, is it doing is a relationship Christ doing something for them.

Rodney Olsen 

And that's the point that you're bringing people to, obviously with the podcast has had quite a number of episodes already, as you start to unpack the things that you've been through. And I'm sure that it's not just helpful for the people that are listening and who are getting in touch. But it must be really helpful for you to be able to unpack a lot of that in front of your audience.

Everret Maxine 

It is a very healing experience. For me, I was told at the age of 16, that I would be standing before the people talking to the people and I had not even been halfway through what I've been through now. And so now I'm at the ripe age of 40. Last year with the podcast, I began doing Her Fridays, allowing other women to share their life experiences with others. I pray about every episode is not just me rambling out at the mouth about you know, my life or something that is going on. But I want it to be a purposeful message. And so it is very healing for me to talk about what I've been through those those God moments that hey, you some five minutes like you kick life in the tail, kiddo. So hey, yeah,

Rodney Olsen 

And of course, with all the trauma that you've been through over those many years in various ways, we will be foolish to think that you're completely over everything now. But you're actually still going on that journey. And it must be a real benefit. For those who are listening in to know that, hey, we're on this journey together. It's not some unrealistic expectation that suddenly it's all going to fall into place, but that we can walk this journey together, but you and your listeners are together, walking towards healing towards hope,

Everret Maxine 

Even the women that I interview, I still try to reach out and see how they're doing. Because every day is just because I am in a place of trying to heal does not mean that my life is perfect at this point. Grief is a process, but we don't have to stay in a state of depression and state of mourning. Because that person is not here. There is purpose for your pain. That's what I tell myself. I mean, I just had a cry the other day because I missed my mom. It's a process you know, but you you get up and you find some positive things to do. You you write you exercise You realize that I am not going through this alone. And that is, you know what I want all people that believe all motherless daughters that you're not going through this alone,

Rodney Olsen 

Your podcast is called the Absence of Her. It's going to be very healing for a lot of people. I'm sure. If people are wanting to find that or get in touch with you, where's the easiest place for them to go?

Everret Maxine 

I have an Instagram which is at iamEverretmaxine. That's the same title on my Facebook page. And the podcast is located on just about any outlet, Google podcast, Spotify, I Heart Radio, Pandora. So if you just type in the Absence of Her, or if you do the hashtag, I am Everret Maxine. You can also find me

Rodney Olsen 

And we'll certainly put the details and links of how to get in touch with you in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet. But now people have a direct link to get in touch with you. Ever. This has been an extraordinary story that you've been telling him. And I want to thank you for your honesty and your openness in sharing this story with us. And I know that this is not the end of the story, but I know that it's going in the right direction. And I just want to say once again, thank you so much for your time with us on bleeding daylight today.

Everret Maxine 

Thank you for the opportunity to share.

Emily Olsen 

Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net

Kash Memphis has seen more brokenness than most in his life. It was there in his upbringing, through his time in the military during overseas service, in relationships, in his body and health, even in seeking to serve God. These days he is pursuing dreams and helping others chase theirs. He’s a Christian rapper who has built his own label and coaching brand.

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(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)

Emily Olsen 

Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen 

Kash Memphis has seen more brokenness than most in his life. It was there in his upbringing, through his time in the military during overseas service, in relationships, in his body and health, even in seeking to serve God.

These days he is pursuing dreams and helping others chase theirs.He’s a Christian rapper who has built his own label and coaching brand. I’ll introduce you in a moment.

Please remember to share this story with others and connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please follow Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts. It's free and it'll ensure you never miss an episode.

Kash Memphis describes himself as a rapper dreamer, author and creative. But for so long he dealt with feelings of rejection and just not fitting in. We'll explore his story today on bleeding daylight, and will travel through some of the twists and turns that his life has taken cash. Welcome to bleeding daylight.

Kash Memphis 

Hey, Rodney, thanks for having me.

Rodney Olsen 

I want to start by painting a picture of your early years. What was life like for you growing up?

Kash Memphis 

Well, you know, when I look back early in my childhood, one of the key words that continues to come up through my mind is that of brokenness or broken, I guess the way I would describe it as more like a desert experience, the first part of my life more like the childhood, I was called to Christ at an early age when I was about 10 years old, but went back into let's say, my living situation wasn't what typical people would think is a traditional church family, brokenness, as a child brokenness as a teenager and early adulthood.

Rodney Olsen 

So you have this experience of church, but your home life doesn't reflect that tell me a bit about that home life,

Kash Memphis 

I was the first person to come to Christ and my family. I felt this calling towards God. And I almost felt as Okay, maybe I'm the one that wants this. But I kind of felt like I was still alone. I had discovered this new thing, this newfound freedom, this newfound peace, I'm newly found in Christ, but I go back into this environment. There's a seed planted, but it's almost as if it's a dormant seed.

Rodney Olsen 

And what about the sort of neighborhood you are growing up in? What was that like for you.

Kash Memphis 

Growing up, it was more like a rural neighborhood, and a tri regional area in West Virginia, Virginia, and Maryland area, so very rural, and very mixed nature. It wasn't a town where it was majority of white people or black people, it was very, culturally different, ethnically different. In that I found myself growing up in a childhood that was ethnically challenging, I felt is almost almost as if like, I didn't fit in with my own people. I felt like I fit in more with other races than my own, not just one race. But I almost felt at that sense, like I had been adopted by the king. And I really, truly hadn't understood who I had been adopted by. So I wasn't really accepted by one sense of one group versus the other. It was almost as if I was a lost sheep, trying to discover myself.

Rodney Olsen 

And as part of that growing up, were you taking on elements of of the other cultures that you are now surrounded by to try and find that acceptance?

Kash Memphis 

Absolutely. So and I really love that you point that out Rodney, because one of the very first things that I ever took to was rap music. And I remember as I was younger, periodically, dreaming of man, because I grew up in a secular rap environment I grew up on Biggie and Tupac Shakur, and Snoop Dogg, and it wasn't very God glorifying music. So I had found an outlet and I don't think I really ever noticed it as a kid. But what I identified with rap music was the struggle, the acceptance, the cultural nature of it. So ideally, when I'm looking at these cultures, I'm seeing their struggle to so that at some point probably played a huge part in my life as well.

Rodney Olsen 

So rather than identifying with a lot of the themes that they were bringing forward, it was more identifying with that sense of struggle that they will portray.

Kash Memphis 

Absolutely, because I think where where I really struggled was for a lot of different cultures. Now, American culture is not necessarily this way anymore. But in other cultures, they were more let's say friendly to their, their elders, you know, there was still a communal guideline. And it was a way that different cultures operated. Part of me fell in love with that culture because they felt like they really loved their own people. And maybe I was asking the question of why didn't my people love me the same way?

Rodney Olsen 

We fast forward a little bit and as a young adult, you join the army was that again, a part Trying to find that acceptance to be part of a movement, so to speak, where you felt that you might fit in?

Kash Memphis 

Yeah. And you know, it's it's interesting how life happens, isn't it? You know how God uses us and shapes us. And we don't even really know the full grasp to that, after I'd come out of my school age years, and it was I didn't have these influences by these other cultures, what it kind of did was carried over and for me, I no longer had that influence. So I was trying to take that influence of my family, my dad, my brother, my mother, and then that was kind of my influence to join the military, because what other hope do I have in life?

Rodney Olsen 

So what happened during that experience in the army? Did that turn out to be the saviour that you were looking for in that acceptance or was it something different?

Kash Memphis 

I would really like to say that it was the greatest experience ever, it wasn't. But what I will say it was the most important experience in my life ever. And here's why I want you to picture a young 20 year old man who's grown, used to a life of brokenness. And then as I'm joining the military, and I'm feeling like maybe I should do what my family did, and, you know, they love to serve their country, or for whatever reason, in the back of my mind, I had this idea that I would go serve my country. And I had this idea that I would be a better person because of it. As I joined the military, I was still a Christian, not really, living the lifestyle that God requires of me, as I got into the military, it wasn't spiritually the nicest environment. But it made me grow up, it revealed a lot of things to me, as a person. For instance, seven of the 13 years that I spent in the United States Army was spent and more as I'm going through this, now, I'm really alone, I'm at war. And, you know, I have my battle buddies, and I have my comrades, but maybe I'm not necessarily the same, because I still have this spiritual struggle. And so this 20 year old is getting ready to go off to war, he's been married, he's going off to war. And while he's at war, his wife serves him divorce papers. So it becomes a very vital point in my life, where it seems everything is crashing down. Or at war, I'm losing battle buddies. This is a whole new reality. And now, I'm getting a divorce. I've been served papers, and I'm waiting to come back to the States after the war. So the war wakes me up. God shakes my life up in that any shows me truly who I am in that time. And in that experience, while fighting the physical war, the spiritual war is just starting at this time.

Rodney Olsen 

And of course, being at war, you'd be seeing and experiencing things that I guess we're really not designed to see and feel and experience.

Right. And, you know, when I look back at my experience on that all of the images that it's taken years to not necessarily get rid of, but the images of maybe those who didn't return, going through survivor's guilt, going through mass casualty events and not being able to bring friends home. Ultimately, when you do end up, almost making it a career, it comes to a point where it leaves you broken, it leaves you broken from the war. Because after the war, I came back, started jumping out of airplanes, and eventually broke and destroyed my back ended up being medically retired. As I'm exiting the army, I'm exiting, physically broken, spiritually broken and at this point, it's where it takes another turn towards more brokenness.

Rodney Olsen 

The USA has this great tradition of honoring those who have served the country. But I guess coming back and having to be medically retired, would really be a bit of a struggle for you in knowing that you're coming from this place where people would honor to have to leave that and again, to have to find another way of fitting in.

Kash Memphis 

The way I equated to the army and serving in the United States Army is that we were family. My friends are the ones I fought with my family were the ones that I fought the war with, as I'm coming out of this experience and and going into this new reality. It's almost as if you lost your family, your job, you lost all sense of purpose, you've been told you physically don't meet the standard anymore, you can no longer provide your services here. So in that experience, I walked away from that, feeling jilted and empty handed. But I also ended up leaving as a drug addict.

Rodney Olsen 

Is that something that started to happen whilst you were still in the military? Or was this your response to having to leave the military.

Kash Memphis 

As I was dealing with the physical and that the army was realizing that this is a much longer term issue. And mind you, you're being dropped out of air planes repeatedly over several years. And so the back is not in the greatest. And so once it's really injured, what they began to do was at this point, pain management. And so in that point in pain management, they began to retire me. And in that process, I did not know that I had become addicted until it was too late.

Rodney Olsen 

So where did that addiction lead you?

Kash Memphis 

Well, I can tell you, for sure, Rodney, it leads nowhere good. I do remember as we were exiting the military. And as as all of this stuff is happening. There comes a point where we lose it all, financially, professionally, coming out of the military. Now it's beginning to erode the family. It became a point where God had to step in, I feel what had happened was, is that in the midst of our opioid epidemic amongst the United States, even going back several years ago, I don't think that our leaders had the proper knowledge to know that this was going to happen. And so maybe in my physical treatment, that's what did it. But nonetheless, I had a problem that I now needed God to deliver me from,

Rodney Olsen 

And how did that deliverance come? What What was the low point that made you turn around and see God to cause a difference in that situation?

Kash Memphis 

It's really interesting how God likes to intersect our lives again, because, you know, it's, it becomes a certain point in our life, where it's like, God, I need you to help me because I've done everything I can. And most of the time, it's because we have to submit to Him and allow him to do the work in us. One night, I remember going to sleep and and I was using at the time, and as a result of that, my wife had an allergic reaction for the first time, and she almost passed away, due to my negligence.

Rodney Olsen 

And it's at that point, you decided that this has got to stop,

I'd like to say that was true. But two nights later, I was going to bed. And in order to understand the story, we have to go back a little bit because while I was in a military, my wife, and I have miscarriage. After this, God reveals to me in this miscarriage who our daughter was in heaven. And I remember hitting this point in saying, God, I need to understand what's going on here. I need to know what you think of me. I need to know that you're there. And I remember going to bed that night, and seeing her and my dreams. And I remember waking up the next morning and saying I can't immediately fix it. But I'm running in the right direction. And it was shortly after that. God called me on to the next mission.

Rodney Olsen 

So where did this next mission take you?

Kash Memphis 

When you served in the military, and you've been medically retired and you've lived the life of brokenness, and you've had different life experiences that have brought you to where you are. The next logical point for me, that God was calling me into was pulpit ministry. So I became a pastor.

Rodney Olsen 

Tell me about the process of becoming a pastor coming out of this background of brokenness, to a place where you're leading others. How did that transition begin for you?

Kash Memphis 

Well, the transition really began for me, kind of when I was in the military, as I was getting medically retired out I had come to a point now see, I served as a chaplain assistant, the last 11 years of my career. I had decided in my military career, I wanted to be a chaplain. And so while I was in the military, I had gotten my degree and then I was approved to go to chaplain school. Well, so That was the natural path. But when I got medically retired, that plan changed, obviously. So naturally I have this degree and I'm, I'm already accredited. And I hear God calling me to being a pastor, I seen this wealth of experience and and I had a number of people around me who were doing the same thing. And it really encouraged me that I could really make a change for the kingdom from that perspective. You know, I'm like, I can really put my mark my stamp on, this is the crescendo. This is what God called me to do.

Rodney Olsen 

So you have the opportunity to be a pastor, and this continues on for a number of years. But it doesn't continue to go, Well, what what happened in that season.

Kash Memphis 

At this point, I think what changes is that God has a mission for me that I truly don't understand. Because as he's calling me into the pulpit, I have this this expectation in my mind, that it's white picket fences, I'm now doing the will of God, I've got the most important job, which is leading the sheep. And it seems that from day one, when I step in the door, I mess up from day one. I guess maybe the reason that I don't know that I truly understood what a pastor was. I think I failed from that perspective. But I also didn't know what to expect, you know, so I was a young pastor, and I just left the military, I just gone through this. And from the time I became a pastor, it almost seemed as if Satan wanted to destroy me from the ground up the entire time. And when we come through some things we don't always notice when God is providing us opportunities. And so when I look in retrospect, I think about it, what could I do differently? Why didn't it go? Well, I don't think I was a good pastor, to be honest with you. I don't think I lead people well, I'd come from leading soldiers to firing bullets downrange, and church just wasn't the same. So when I walked into my first rural New York church, you know, farmland, New York, I had this idea that people were just going to support me because they, you know, the pastor was the most important person, or, you know, when when we had the commissioning, it was like, everybody loved you with open arms. But I slowly started to find out that it was hard. And then war is waged in the spiritual realm. So I learned a lot there. But if I were to, if I were to put it in a short statement, I think I was a bad pastor.

Rodney Olsen 

I know that as a pastor, you're often helping people to deal with their brokenness and their struggles. Did you find it difficult that in your own brokenness that you were trying to help others with their own?

Kash Memphis 

Yeah, because if we're not active in combing through our struggles, our doubts and our fears and our anxieties, and if we're not focused on surrendering those things, if we're not dealing with those things, then I think it's difficult to help other people deal with their brokenness. What I was doing is I wasn't necessarily addressing all my baggage too. So it's kind of difficult, you know, you want people want you to lead them. And they want you to help fix them. But at the same time, when you have two people who don't understand the work that's required, it becomes really difficult.

Rodney Olsen 

So a few years down the track, you leave the church, and there is that sense, once again, that you've lost everything. But then there's a turning point, tell me about what happened then.

Kash Memphis 

I remember exiting the church that night. And I have to admit that I didn't quite agree with where this whole thing was going. I didn't understand what God was doing. The only thing I could see was the circumstances. And I was angry. You know, God, how could this happen? How could I lose it again? Now, you know, I've lost these people that have become my church family. Now I've lost my friends. They've all turned against me. And now I feel like I have to walk my head away and shame. So I'm standing in this church parking lot. And I'm just I'm walking and I'm pacing in a circle around this parking lot. I'm angry. I don't know if I'm angry with God or if I'm angry with myself, I just kind of had this vital moment. Like when you switch the light on the severe contrast that everything that I had worked for, and it lived for what I thought I was doing right, I realized that I had become sick and tired of who I become, I become disgusted with myself. And I felt like the organizational body or the organization of the church had left me misfit, orphaned, neglected, rejected, and I have nothing but to rely on is that of God. And so in my passion, and just you know, because rap is a very aggressive form of music, whether Christian or secular, it talks about the struggle, it talks about the pain, it talks about the realness of, it strips down all the pretty curtains, and you can see everything for what it is kind of feeling. And I'm pacing the parking lot. And I just, I'm listening to instrumental rap music that I either grew up on or I start freestyling with that. And if you're not really sure what freestyling is, it's just basically sped up talking to a beat in my heart, and and then maybe my, my frustration, I said, God, I'll give you the rest of my life, I'll do whatever you want me to do, if I could just live my dream and do it for you, and you take care of my family. But that's what I want to do. And I feel like that night I got God's blessing, even in the worst time of my life. Because I truly, for the first time, found an outlet in which I could express my thoughts, not only express my thoughts, but express a way for me to say, I'm sorry, thank you a way for me to say the thing that I normally could not say, at that point in that night, I just said, God, I want to write rap music, on a rap for you, I don't even know that I'm good at. But that's what I'm gonna do the rest of my life. And I want to build this company so that, you know, I can put my music under it. And you know, I'm just, I want to live my dreams. I want to work for you the rest of my life. But I want you to just allow me to be able to have some fun with it and be creative. I'd like to rap. And God answered my prayers. That night, it may not have felt like it that night, but he did.

Rodney Olsen 

So in a sense, you've come full circle from being that young boy in a neighborhood where you feel you don't quite fit in, and you're turning to wrap to to try and understand the struggle. And you feel a connection there. You're now using it as a way to connect with the struggle of other people all these years later. And to turn it into something for good. Tell us where this has now taken you.

Kash Memphis 

Well, Rodney, that's a loaded question. And so I'd have to respond by saying this is that once, once I started down that point, and all of this starts coming together, I realize God takes me back. Right before I began writing Kodak PowerPoint, he calls me to a 40 day fast with him, you know, I'm supposed to pour my blood, sweat and tears into it. And during that time, God really opened my eyes. So spent three weeks working on my music and you know, giving him you know, 110%. And then the last week I did a traditional fasting, you know that the Bible says don't boast about it, but I'm not telling you this to boast about me. I'm telling you this to boast about God. But when I spent that time with him, one of the things he revealed to me was, he left Moses in the desert for 40 years. It took him 40 years, to prepare them to enter the promised land. You know, at this point, I'm not I wasn't even entering 40. But I was going through my read, see. And what he revealed to me is that like that little boy, in that time was that all of my life, he's allowed me to experience the brokenness of human. I mean, you know, not like him because I'm not perfect, but I really identify with broken people. And really, because of my story, because the brokenness that I walked through goes so deep. I look at it and I say, Well, God had it not been for this brokenness, what I be prepared for now. The little boy that was broken, the soldier that was broken, for the marriage that was broken, and all of the broken things. I was allowed do live my dream. As I'm living my dream, I realize it's gonna take a little bit more work. And as I'm finishing up some music during this fast, a friend calls me and I, I just finished up recording as a friend from my military days. It's interesting how it comes full circle. The chaplain that I was serving with in Afghanistan, had asked a favor of me and he said, Hey, I would really like it if you could train my chaplains and my chaplain assistants on area operations overseas, because I have had a number of years deploying and I was highly experienced, and say, Well, yeah, I'll go ahead and help you. So after this is done, he knows of what I'm doing. He says, Would it be helpful if I get our unit to write a memo for you so that, you know, we can just express that you're professional, that things that you did, maybe that'll help you down the road? So well, Steve, that would be okay. So Steve calls me the next day. phone's ringing. I'm like, yo, what's good, Steve? He's like, hey, there's a change of plans, man. I thought we had two weeks. But I need you to do it today. And so that I was flexible. I said, no issues, Dave, I can I can get you there. So I do the training. And afterwards, he he's sending the memo over from the military. And what's really interesting about this military memo, is that when it comes to military memo, it's almost like its own language. And so it's very guided, it's very directed. But there was five bullet points on this memo. And while the other four are important, they're not as important as the fifth point. So I'm reading the memo. And I get down to this final point. And this is the part in my life, where I realize I should start taking my dreams a whole lot more seriously. Because God found a way to intersect with me to prove he is faithful to prove he is just because that last bullet point on that memo, would have never appeared on military memo. But it says, we recommend Brian Havens my real name, or we recommend Kash Memphis, for whatever he wants to do. And in that moment, God just invaded my heart, with love. And with an understanding, I thought, I have life. But to bring it full circle. It's like I felt like this is part of a releasing point where he confirms everything that I've been dreaming of and been working towards,

Rodney Olsen 

You're now are running your own label. And you're also working with other people to help them release their dreams. Tell us about that experience for you.

Kash Memphis 

When I started this dream, I had the idea in my mind that the company would be named missiology. And that is the case. But when we, when I started that dream, in missiology basically means living on mission. You know, whatever you're doing, just as, you know, you can use that for kingdom. It's a missiological lifestyle. But what we're doing by that is the idea is that I started living my dreams when God called me to when he called me to them. And so it is my belief that when I walked into that mission, I wasn't only doing it for me. But I was doing it with the expectation that missiology his mission would be to awaken dreamers and sleepers to live out their kingdom purpose, and then provide them a roadmap to accomplish it. As we talk now. That's actually our reality. The first of the year, I started up my coaching program, that means I'm coaching people to live out their dreams. I'm coaching people, to have a little bit of fortitude, to push into their kingdom purpose, to seize the opportunity that God's called them to. Because while he says in Scripture, in these days, he will pour out visions and dreams on his on his people. I think the part that we don't acknowledge when we read that is that we're responsible for those dreams and we'll be rewarded for living them. So I've dedicated my life to living for Jesus while I predominantly write and perform rap music wherever anyone will have me but part of getting people to live their dream is also being able to lead from the front. And so that's what we're doing through coaching Through the many other things we do in this theology,

Rodney Olsen 

What has been the reaction to your music? You're talking about struggle through that and struggles that you faced? Are you getting feedback from people that it's actually helping them to deal with their own struggles?

Kash Memphis 

Absolutely. Let me give you an example. My music is played in 62 different countries, the response that I'm getting is phenomenal. A friend of mine from the military sent me a message the other day and said, Hey, man, I love what you're doing, I appreciate you, you are going to be able to go places no one else can go. And the reason I share that is because God is providing me opportunities that I never thought I would be in position to be here had I not start chasing my dream, had I not start living out what I felt God had purposed me for.

Rodney Olsen 

It's a real different change to this young man that we heard about at first. And I'm sure that life still has its struggles, it has its ups and downs. But knowing that you're living this dream, obviously makes a big difference in your life.

Kash Memphis 

It does, it does. And you know, even as I sit here, and I'm talking to you, I just have the relative sense that that God still wants to do more. It's a sense of being found in being surrendered in my purpose. It's not so much anymore, that I'm unhappy with me, and I'm unhappy with where I'm at. Now, I've focused on my relationship with Jesus, I've allowed him to guide me in love instead of walking away in bitterness and that's been really formative, but to see where I'm standing now, and then look back at all the little places where he gave me like GPS, turn left here, do this, it really gives me the sense that, Papa, you love me. And when you say you died for me, you weren't just joking. When you say, you, you've got dreams, and you've got plans for me better than I could ever understand. I take you serious. I now feel like I did when I was once 10 years old. When I walked up, and I received Christ at this Baptist camp, this church camp that day that God called me when I was 10 years old. I felt as if I could walk into my purpose, with my head held high. Knowing God's sent me with authority.

Rodney Olsen 

Your music is available through Apple Music through Spotify, and all sorts of other places if people want to track that down. But if people are wanting to find out more about you to get in touch, what's the easiest thing for them to do?

Kash Memphis 

The easiest way to get in touch with me Rodney would be either through social media, kodakpurple.com is up. That would be the primary way right there. So if you if you can't reach me there, contact me through social media and I'll be sure to return every contact.

Rodney Olsen 

And I'll put some contact details in the show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet so that people can get in touch and and hear more of your story. But cash Memphis, it has been so good to talk to you. Thank you for sharing some of your story, where God has brought you from and is taking you to and we look forward to hearing more about you in the future. Thank you for your time.

Kash Memphis 

Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure and a blessing man.

Emily Olsen 

Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net

Depression, anxiety, fear, pain, shame, failure, feeling not enough, even wanting to leave this world. These are all things that Caris Snider has experienced. Whether you’ve encountered any of these feelings, or you’re wanting to know how to help someone who has, you’ll find hope and encouragement in today’s episode of Bleeding Daylight.

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(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)

Emily Olsen 

Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen 

Depression, anxiety, fear, pain, shame, failure, feeling not enough, even wanting to leave this world. These are all things that today’s guest has experienced. Whether you’ve encountered any of these feelings, or you’re wanting to know how to help someone you know, you’ll find hope and encouragement in today’s episode.

Please remember to share this story with others and connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please follow Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts. It's free and it'll ensure you never miss an episode.

Caris Snider 

Thank you, Rodney, for having me today.

Rodney Olsen 

I want to explore the anxiety elephants that you referenced in the title to your book. But first, let's go back to before the elephants arrived, what did life look like for you?

Caris Snider 

Well, life appeared to be wonderful for me, my husband and I, we were business owners, we had a daughter at the time who was two years old, and everything appeared to be great for us. We had lots of friends around us. And he even thought that I was this strong, Wonder Woman, if you will type woman. And I was terrified to show people what I was dealing with inside.

Rodney Olsen 

And what were some of the things that you were dealing with in your inner world,

Caris Snider 

I was dealing with this need to be perfect, if you will, I was terrified that if people knew that I wasn't perfect, that I didn't have it all together, that I was a failure, that I was terrified of failure, and that I had lived with fear and rejection for much of my life. I was scared if I let them into those real pieces of who I was that they would no longer accept me that I would no longer be needed in my church that that even God wouldn't want to use me anymore because I wasn't this perfect person that I was portraying and I really just felt broken. I felt ashamedn and I just felt less than, really,

Rodney Olsen 

Where do you believe these feelings started to come from? Obviously, this is something that started way back before this supposedly perfect looking life. Where did all that begin for you?

Caris Snider 

Yeah, Rodney, that is a great question. And I honestly believe this all started for me when I was a child, I can go back and I can remember being in school in first grade for me. And I remember, a little boy who lived in my neighborhood with his family lived there. My twin brother and I, we all lived in this neighborhood. We all went to church together. It was a very small, close knit town. And one day he gathered our entire first grade class around me. And he began to make fun of me because I was born with a mild form of cerebral palsy in my left side, and I had no idea until that day that my body was physically different from everyone else. My my parents didn't treat me any different. None of my extended family looked at me differently. They they loved me. And they never called out to me that my arm was held up all the time or that I walked with a lamp. I didn't know until I was six years old. And this little boy gathered our class around us and he looked at me and he said Caris, why do you look like that? Why do you look like a bunny rabbit. And he held both of his arms up the way that I held my left arm up. And I'm in my 30s. And I can still picture this moment. And he began to hop around me like a bunny rabbit. And the entire class was laughing with him and laughing at me, and to choke the tears back to choke back the hurt and the pain that he caused. I laughed with them and I remember going home that day and I did something that I began to do throughout the rest of my life until I dealt with anxiety and depression. And what I did was, I told no one, I hid it. I didn't tell my parents, I didn't tell my teacher. I didn't tell my brothers because I was scared of what would come out of me sharing this rejection sharing this pain. So early on in my life, the way I learned to cope with the pain and hurt and rejection was to hide it to push it down and to become the master of the mask to find ways to hide my weaknesses to find ways to not be called out in the crowd again, because that moment, that rejection felt awful. It was just a terrible feeling. And it all began for me as a young child.

Rodney Olsen 

So there's this one instance that you remember very clearly, in that that place playground did that teasing go on from there was this a case of once this boy has highlighted it to the rest of the class that they was teasing that continue to go on from that point,

Caris Snider 

He did not tease me from that point. But throughout the rest of my grade school years, they were the other boys and other girls who would bring up different things to call out different weaknesses that they would be able to find, you know, we all can run into people that bring those things out to us in different ways. And so in those moments, I can remember even in fifth grade, a boy would make fun of the way that I talked, and he just like to pick on me and I began to have symptoms of anxiety, my heart would be racing, my breathing would feel very breathless, I would have migraines. And we had no idea what was going on in my body. Because in that time, in those years, we really didn't talk about anxiety, often, and we didn't really put a name to it. So I didn't know what was going on. And then, you know, as teenagers, we all deal with different moments in our teenage years. So I had those different moments that were kind of markers, I like to say, throughout my young adult life, my childhood life that kind of created these coping skills of not coping these skills of hide it, the whole, fake it till you make it thing,

Rodney Olsen 

Then we fast forward. And you've mentioned that you're married. And at this stage, you also have a daughter, and wondering about even in those courting days with your husband, and we know what that's like, where we express our love for each other. And I'm sure that your husband is saying, You're beautiful. Was there something inside you thinking? Yeah, but only if you knew?

Caris Snider 

Yes, there really was because I was terrified. If you know, if you know, the fears that I have, if you know these weaknesses, that I have, will you love me for who I am? Will you accept me, for who I am, it was funny, actually, when we met, Rodney, he was in a Christian boy band. And so they danced around and they sang, and he had all these girls that love to follow him and, and wanted his autograph and, and oftentimes I can remember I would find my way, kind of shrinking in the background, because I just didn't feel like I was as good as they were, I didn't feel worthy of his love, if you will. And so I can remember having those moments throughout our, our dating Season of Our relationship before we did get engaged and get married. But I would I would lie in the bed at night and wonder what is it about me, you know, if he would really love the real me, if I if I let him see that. Even after we got married, I was still this strong woman who, who went for it, who strove, you know, for, for perfection and to be the best of the best. Because, you know, all these other instances in my life where I had rejection, I thought if I show him, this part of me, will he reject me, as well.

Rodney Olsen 

So at the same time, as you're getting involved in something that's quite wonderful, there's this fear in the back of your mind that it's all on a precipice, and it could tip over at any moment,

Caris Snider 

At any moment. And that is so much pressure and young person's life, I think about even young people right now the pressure that they're under, you know, and I remember that with work and with family and, and these new relationships, and that pressure was mounting. And I had convinced myself that no one can know, no one can know about this pressure, no one can know about these weaknesses. And that I had to keep it all to myself, keep all the burden, all the pain, all the broken pieces, try to carry that in my own hands, and my own arms all by myself.

Rodney Olsen 

Did you have any inkling that there is this kind of disconnect to a smaller or larger degree in most people's lives? Or was this just something that because you were stuffing it down? You felt I'm the only one on alone in this?

Caris Snider 

Yeah, that you You said it, I truly believed that I was the only person dealing with all of these broken things because I looked at everyone else. I saw everyone else smiling. I saw everyone else laughing and having a good time. And it never clicked to me that maybe they're struggling too. Maybe they are going through a hard time too. And I will be honest with you and tell you that I grew up in even into my college years thinking that anxiety and depression that those things were not real. I honestly thought that if you said you dealt with anxiety and depression, that you were feeling sorry for yourself that you were just wanting attention, and that these things were just made up. And I really did not realize how real and how much of a burden those things Until I began to deal with those things, and I would even have people come to me and ask me for advice and for encouragement or, or asked me to pray for them, you know, to ask God to help them deal with with what they're going through mentally. And I would tell them, unfortunately, I would say to them things like, well, you just need to try harder. You just need to pray harder, you just need to trust God more. And I had no idea that I was causing more hurt. And I was causing more shame and pain, to fill their hearts and minds when I was telling them those things because it was not responding to them with the compassion that Jesus would have responded with.

Rodney Olsen 

And at the same time, as you're telling them to try harder to pray harder, that these things don't really exist. you're experiencing this yourself but not realizing it.

Caris Snider 

That's exactly right. I remember when I began to experience for me personally, it was anxiety first. And I remember that I began to have these panic attacks, but I didn't know it was panic attacks, what it felt like to me is that my heart was beating out of my chest, and it would not stop and it felt like these elephants were sitting on my chest, and the harder I pushed to get these elephants off to get this pain off, the harder my heart would be, and then my breathing, I would feel breathless, and I would feel dizzy. And I had no idea that this was an anxiety attack, I was having a thought I was dying. And I would do I dealt with this for several months, I again, I'm still operating under these coping skills of don't tell anybody. And I sat on my couch one day in my house, and my daughter was playing with her toys. And it was just her and I at home, and my heart begin to race like I had never felt before. And I was terrified. I was paralyzed in fear. And my heart was beating, I couldn't breathe, I felt dizzy. And the only thing that I needed to do in that moment was to call my mother and she was a safe person for me a safe place for me, I called my mother. And she told me, Caris, you need to go to the doctor right now. I think you're having an anxiety attack, you need to go to the doctor. And I wanted to argue with my mother, but I knew even then you don't argue with your mother. I did what she asked me to do. And I took my daughter with me. And I remember in that moment, that brokenness and that anxiety, it just kind of overwhelmed me. And I would I looked at the nurses as they hooked me up to these machines, to check my heart and to make sure that everything was okay. And I looked at them, and I began to say to them, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you're having to deal with this, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm causing you to have to work this extra hard, you know, your day, I'm sorry, that I'm a burden that began to come out of my mouth. And, you know, those nurses reminded me that they were there to help me, that was kind of the first seed of allowing people in to help and, and they begin to help me and the doctor came in and, and he said, Caris, you know, your heart is fine, you're having an anxiety attack. And I was still in this denial stage of his anxiety really real, you know, and I kind of wanted to argue with a doctor, but I told him, You know, I was good, I was fine, I was gonna be okay. And I left that day, not allowing him to help me not, you know, taking medication, not talking to a counselor, trying to still figure it out on my own, and then doing that, for me, the anxiety now moved into depression.

Rodney Olsen 

Tell us about some of the steps that you were taking at this stage, you say that you want it to be perfect. You You want it to present, this amazing woman that you didn't really feel that you were, what were some of the things that you were doing to try and project that image? And how are you dealing with that within your own body?

Caris Snider 

Some things that I was doing to project this image of perfection is I was focusing on the outside, what can I do to my physical appearance to make people think that I was okay and that I had it all together. And so what I did is I begin to exercise a lot. I exercise at least two hours every day, I was lifting weights that I had no business lifting, it was probably upwards of 10 pound weights. And I was eating less than 1000 calories a day. So I was not eating very much because I was again just trying to make my body look perfect. I was drinking three to four gallons of water a day, way too much water and I was starving myself. I was doing it to show this image of perfection but I was also doing it trying to starve the pain of the anxiety and the depression and the shame that I felt, and in doing that my body dropped down to almost 100 pounds. I looked like a skeleton because this weight of perfection, this need to, to have it all together was just beginning to to wear wear me down and wear me out. And at this time,

Rodney Olsen 

Were there any warning bells for your husband as he's seeing this? Or was he just believing that you wanting to be fit, and that you are wanting to get into the shape that you want it to be?

Caris Snider 

There were some warning bells for him, he noticed that I would go away into our bedroom and just, that's where I would work out and I would disappear for hours. You know, I wasn't with him or with my daughter very much. I was isolating myself away. I was isolating myself away from church from our friends. Whenever we would lead worship, I would always find a reason to have to leave quickly, to not stay and be around people. So then I wouldn't have to talk to anyone about what I was dealing with. He began to notice that and even we were going to the beach. This was my daughter's very first trip to the beach as a toddler and I cried, I cried the whole way there. I cried while we were there. Because these these thoughts, these what ifs that anxiety was plaguing me with. What if she drowns? What if we have a wreck? What if something happens to our house while we're going I was just played with these irrational fears? And he began to ask me, you know, Caris, are you okay? Curious What's wrong, I can remember telling him that I really didn't know what was wrong. But I remember asking him, please don't give up on me. I know that. This is not like me, I know that this is things that we've never gone through. But please don't give up on me. And he really didn't know how to respond. But he knew that in that moment, I just needed him to be there for me, he didn't have to have all the answers. He didn't have to know how to fix it. I just needed to know that in that moment. As this truth were being revealed as these things that I was dealing with this anxiety and depression, as I begin to talk to him about it slowly reveal it to him, that he wasn't going to leave me that he wasn't going to turn his back on me. And that was the biggest thing. So he did notice that I was isolating, he did notice that I was very particular and what I would eat, I would only eat certain things that I made, that I didn't want to go eat at restaurants anymore. And he just began to kind of see these red flags, he didn't really quite know what to do. So he didn't try to do anything, he just wanted to make sure that I knew that he was there. And that, that there was no way that he was going to leave me behind

Rodney Olsen 

The fears, the doubts, the anxiety, has stopped just being about you. You're projecting that onto others. Now you're thinking, what happens if my daughter drowns at the beach? What happens if the car's in a wreck. So it's starting to explode at this stage, isn't it?

Caris Snider 

it was exploding and that depression began to turn into dread, dread to get up and face the day dread of what if I caused, you know, hurt or pain on my daughter or my husband, you know, I'm beginning to think these things that depression tells you that you're a burden, that you're worthless, hopeless, useless and purposeless. And, and this would just begin to just wear on me day after day after day. And in the midst of all of this hurt, all this pain, all of the shame, we find out that I'm pregnant, and we could not believe that I was pregnant. And so I remember going to my doctor and and she was checking everything out. And she was you know, she's heard the baby's heartbeat and, and she said, you know, cares, the baby right now is healthy, but but for the sake of the baby, and for the sake of your health, you know, you need to eat, it's okay, if you eat cake, or you eat sweets or donuts for breakfast, lunch and dinner, we just need you to eat to put something into your body. And so that was something that did trigger in me to help me Stop starving myself. Because I knew for the sake of that baby, I needed to eat something. So that did help help me in doing that in over a course of about eight weeks. I gained six pounds, which was a huge deal for me that was a big victory because I was not eating very much before that. But also at the end of that eight weeks I lost that baby. And that was the rock bottom for me having that miscarriage and seeing that little life disappear. And so now I'm beginning to hear you see what you did see how you You brought hurt onto that child onto that life. You know, you're not needed here. This world will be better off without you. So now I am pushing down deeper into these thoughts of, well, maybe I do need to leave this earth and suicide, suicidal thoughts began to become real. And that scared me to see myself go that far but to realize how real anxiety and depression and shame and suicide is and how so many people are out there struggling with that thinking just like idea that they're alone and that there's no hope,

Rodney Olsen 

All this time you're you're heading towards this moment where you finally must admit that you need help. But you are living within a faith community, you're part of a church. And obviously, part of the teaching of the Scriptures is that were accepted no matter who we are, and what we like, why do you think it's so difficult for many, even within the church, to take those sort of scriptures to heart? Why is there such a difficulty for us to assimilate what we read about this God who loves us unconditionally? With who we are? Why is there that disconnect?

Caris Snider 

I have been asking that question for a while now. And I think it's a really powerful one. I think sometimes, you know, and I know, this is my opinion, I think sometimes we as the church and in the faith community, sometimes when we don't know how to deal with things, we just pretend like they're not there. And we, for a while there has been this disconnect between faith and mental health. And like you said, the scriptures tells us, you know, how God loves us. And he came, you know, he sent his son for the sick, and the hurting. And the scriptures even tell us that in this world, you will have trouble. And I think sometimes we get this thought in our head that that means everyone but us. And in actuality, it doesn't. It includes us. And what I found is in that moment, and that rock bottom moment for me, God was there. He was there with me in that pit. And just as he says, You know, I will never leave you, I will never forsake you. And in that moment, it was a two questions were there it was a you can look up, or you can give up. And it was like, God just kind of helped lift my head. And when I looked up, he helped me to see that they were helpers there that the church, the body of Christ was there to help me. And not only was my church there, my fame, my church family there, but he had a counselor there for me, who worked within faith and worked within the scriptures to help me. He had my doctor there who was helping bring those hormones and those things that were in my body out of balance, putting it back in, and my family was there. And my friends that I went to church with, they were there, and they loved me and they cared for me and all this time thinking, you know, if you tell, they're going to turn their back on you, that was revealed to be a lie. And you know, Galatians 6:2 tells us that we are to bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. And so God's word began to be real in my life. And I began to see Wait a minute, there is Grace is is real. And when Christ died for us, it was with grace that he came knowing that we couldn't get through this life without him there was going to be no way. And that began to lift this need for perfection off and allowed God's true grace to come in. And I'll never forget, as I was beginning to learn what grace really was, and to learn about bearing one another's burdens and taking off this mask of this need to have it all together. I was sitting with a friend and our daughters were playing. And she asked me how I was doing. And I told her, I said, you know what I'm not. Today is not a good day, I've been battling with depression and anxiety. And I'm working through that. And my friend looked at me, and I could see relief, kind of feel her shoulders, and she just relaxed a little bit. And she looked at me and she said, You too? And I looked at her and we both had tears in her eyes. And I said, Yes, me too. And, and in that moment, it was as if God was showing me this is what what this is about. This is what I want. My Church. This is what I want the body of Christ to do share one another's burdens. And in doing that, it allows his hope to begin to come in because we realize we don't have to be perfect. to work together. We don't have to be perfect to go out and be used by God because He works through our weaknesses. When we're weak, then that is when he can be strong and that was in a moment a shifting for me. When God began to restore me and help me to see that in my weaknesses that's where the world can see his hope.

Rodney Olsen 

I'm interested in the difference between, that scary time of having to admit, I need help. And the time just after that, once you finally told others, this is what I'm going through and the relief that must have come from that. Can you contrast those for us?

Caris Snider 

Yes, I can think back on that when I had to admit and acknowledge that I had a problem. And I needed help. And I remember in that moment, I did that with my head held down, not wanting to look anyone in the eyes, not wanting to see if they really were going to walk away. And you know, even in that moment, having my heart practically beat out of my chest. And it was a moment filled with beer kind of a moment that I was faced with, will the lies be real? Or will they proved to not be true. And it was a moment where those lies were proved not to be true. And I just needed that one moment to admit my struggle to admit my problem. And to face it. And once I face that fear, and realized that they were still there, that they loved me, it began to become easier. As I shared with my friend and talk with her, it was kind of like a aha moment, when not when we talked about it. As a more people need this more people need to know that there's freedom, in being vulnerable, there's freedom in telling what's going on inside of you. And in doing that, that's when God could begin to really bring that restoration in that healing into my life, because he couldn't heal any of that, if I wasn't willing to admit that I needed that healing. And so as I began to talk to my friends, and even share with others, it allowed us to kind of go through that journey together. And to truly realize, hey, we're not alone. We're not alone in this, there's actually millions of us going through this right now. And the more that we share our stories with each other, and the more we can say, hey, me, too, not only can we have that moment in our struggle in our pain, but we can have that moment together in our healing. And in our restoration, and in living our life in a new way.

Rodney Olsen 

What did it do for your relationships, when you were finally able to bring the real up to the table? I'm interested, especially for you and your husband, how did that start to grow your relationship,

Caris Snider 

It allowed us to, to laugh more, to enjoy life more, it helped me to see that I didn't have to be perfect around him that it was okay for me to mess up. And it was okay for him to mess up, you know, I could take that, that need of perfection off of everyone else. So it really kind of brought relief around our household, it brought relief into our marriage. And it allowed us in our ministry, to really work together more in a way where where it was God's grace operating, you know, that gift of not needing to be perfect, allowing him him to work through us. And so, you know, I can remember that, that we could now go out on dates, and we could laugh, or we could be silly, or we could talk about things that I had questions about that I didn't know if they were true or not. And we could have good honest conversation. And it was like we kind of got to know each other in a brand new way, if you will.

Rodney Olsen 

I'm interested in the journey from there, you're talking about going through this healing process. And I'm sure that there are still good days and bad days. But what was some of the steps that you actually talk to get into a healthier place?

Caris Snider 

Right. So those steps, I like to call them. action steps were very important for me, a couple of those things, first of all, was seeking help from a counselor and going and talking to a counselor, which was something that I struggled with for a little while. And I didn't understand how a counselor could be so helpful. But in doing that it allowed me to talk about things that I was dealing with, it allowed me to go back to my childhood and see that that was kind of where the root of everything began for me. So having that counselor to allow me to share freely, with no judgment, and to just kind of explore and discover these things. That was a big action step for me receiving help from my doctor. That was really important as well. You know, she posed the question to me if you had heart disease, and I offered medication to you to help you with a heart disease, would you take it? And I told her Yes, I absolutely would. And so, and needing that medication to get my brain and those hormones back in order. That's what she was trying to help me to see this medication is helping your brain just like medication would for your heart if you had heart disease, and so that was an important step to take that into into help me get out of that fog and get back in balance. Some other things that were helpful was being around community, being around friends no longer isolating myself no longer living in loneliness. And so I would allow women into my life where we could be real and honest with each other and have that community that we were meant to have to bear one another's burdens my family, letting you know, again, leaning on my husband letting him be that supporter for me, knowing that I didn't have to be this strong and mighty person that he loved me even in my weaknesses and to know that our weaknesses partner together and allowed us to have our marriage and work together. That was important. Also, I think what was really important for me was really diving into God's word and seeing Okay, okay, God, what do you say about fear? What do you say, about anxiety? What do you say about different things that I was dealing with in my life and to really get in the Scripture, and to write it down, and to begin to hide his word in my heart, you know, and to know that he was with me. And in doing that, I even found Psalm 94:19. When anxiety is great within me, your comfort, brings me joy. So claiming to scriptures like that, that was important. Also, I began to journal and write down my thoughts, write down those negative things that was in my mind to get them out. And then I would replace it, I would take those thoughts captive and replace those thoughts, with like, giving thoughts with Scripture or with, you know, positive affirmations about myself. And then even having an attitude of gratitude. I even heard on a snippet of your podcast with Terry Nightingale, how he was talking about gratitude, when we give that thanks to God, right, it allows the Holy Spirit to invade that space. So I began to learn that power of gratitude and thanking God for every good thing in my life, knowing that all those good things came from him and that began to help me to not focus on the negative things and help me to keep my eyes focused on those positive things that I had around me. And that was huge. And finally, helping others realizing that there were other women, there were other men, there were other children, and young people who needed help, who needed to know you are not alone. And there is hope. And that hope is worth fighting for So beginning to pour into others and help others who were where I was, that was a big moment for me as well.

Rodney Olsen 

And you've mentioned there that you started to reach out and help others. And you've continued to do that through your website. And tell me a little about that book. I mean, fascinating title. And we've already heard where the idea of the elephants come from, what was the thinking behind that book?

Caris Snider 

Right. So like you said, the idea of the elephants came from the description of describing anxiety as elephants sitting on my chest, I knew that that many people were dealing with anxiety, and they didn't know what it was. So giving them that description helped them to understand better. And then there were some that, that were not dealing with anxiety, but they had family members in their life who were and so that helped them to understand what that anxiety really felt like for them. And so in writing the devotional, honestly, I had never really wanted to be a writer that was not on my bucket list, I guess you could say, but but God just kind of began to do a work in me and show me you know, that that was something he wanted me to do. So I began to just kind of write and look for scriptures. And what I wanted to do was offer a tool, a tool to help people to know, okay, these are daily action steps that I can take, because when you're in the middle of that anxiety, you want to take action, but you don't really know what action to take. So in the book, there is a scripture for every day, there's 31 days and, and then we kind of in the text, we talk about that scripture and I share about different stories and parts of my my life. And then at the end of that there is an action step for the reader to take. And then after that there's a prayer they can pray. And there's a journaling page, or they can write down what did they learn? How are they going to take that action step for that day. So it's short reading, but it's power packed to really help people see you can overcome these anxiety elephants, you can get back to not just surviving in your life, but you can truly thrive and the purpose that God has for you.

Rodney Olsen 

I imagine that for someone who's experiencing anxiety, experiencing depression, the last thing they want is reading through volumes of information. So those short, power packed devotionals are probably going to be the best thing for them to say. There is someone on my side. And I can just read that even through my mind fog at the moment.

Caris Snider 

Yeah, I love how you said that, that there is someone on my side. And I remember that's what I needed. I couldn't really process Going through those moments really in depth deep, you know, long reading, but I just needed someone to say take this one small action today. And that's a victory. And that began to help me to see that I didn't have to focus on what I was not doing, just focus on the small things that I could do each day. And so that's why I wanted to really write the devotional in that way, so that it would give people momentum every day to build on something new to say, Hey, I took this one small step. Now, what small steps can I take today?

Rodney Olsen 

It's been almost a decade since all of this came to a head. And you had to reach out and say, I need help in that decade, since we'd all like to believe that we can get an instant cure. But what has that journey been? Like? Is it an ongoing journey for you?

Caris Snider 

It is, I would love to tell people that I no longer battle anxiety or depression. But that would be a lie, that would not be true, I still have days, I still have moments where I struggle, where I wonder where I asked those what ifs. But now, I don't stay down in the struggle. And it doesn't keep me wrapped up. Now I have these tools. And I know what I can do to fight back. Now I may have a day where it knocks me out completely. But I can get up the next day and know these are the things that I know to do. I also know that God's grace is sufficient, and that he loves me that he is not mad at me. If I go back into those struggles, and I know that my purpose is still there for me, even when I struggle, and so I'm learning in this process over these years that the struggles allow me to lean in on God and to trust in Him. And that it's okay. To not be okay.

Rodney Olsen 

It must be wonderful to know that there are now more good days than bad days. What does the family life look like for you today?

Caris Snider 

Yes. So now today, actually, we have two daughters, we have a daughter who's 12 and a daughter who's eight. And so family life today looks for us, we have a lot of honest conversations, I want my daughters to know that they can share the good, the bad and the ugly, they will not get in trouble. So we make sure that we leave space for that space for that honesty. The days now are filled, you know, as best as they can with conversations with friends. Those conversations may be you know, Hey, how are you today. And if they need to share a struggle, there is space to do that. And then I also now have a tribe of people around me, that allows me to share allows me to open up and so the days are filled with leaving that freedom, for whatever may happen to happen. And to know that in that it could be something good, it could be something that that's hard, but God will use it for good. He'll use it in a way that'll bring honor and glory to Him. And so these days are filled with much more laughter much more freedom than where I was 10 years ago. And I am just truly grateful for that.

Rodney Olsen 

As you said, one of the things that you want to do now is to reach out to provide that help for others. And you do that through the book anxiety elephants, also through blog posts and various other things that people will find on your website. What is the easiest way for people to discover you or find you online?

Caris Snider 

Right, so they can go to my website that is carissnider.com. And there you can find more information about the book, you can find my social media where I hang out for social media, and like you said, different blog posts and other videos that I've done. So I feel like the website would be the easiest way for people to discover

Rodney Olsen 

Caris. It has been wonderful to talk to you to hear some of your story, which sounds like there's some very difficult things that you've been through. But amongst that there is some incredible hope. And we thank you for bringing that hope, because I'm sure that there are many people that are experiencing that both for themselves. But also, as you've mentioned, knowing that loved ones are going through difficult times and wondering how can I help them so thank you for what you've brought to our conversation today. And thank you for spending some time on bleeding daylight.

Caris Snider 

Yeah, thank you Rodney for allowing me to be on and thank you for having this this space to offer help to the world.

Emily Olsen 

Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net

Markus Watson was investigated for a sickening crime with no knowledge of who had made allegations against him, what evidence they claimed to have, and not even knowing the crime he was alleged to have committed. He faced accusations that threatened to destroy his livelihood and trash his reputation. He was betrayed, investigated by the FBI and forced out of a job.

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(This transcript is intended as a guide only. It may not be 100% correct.)

Emily Olsen 

Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick out the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen.

Rodney Olsen 

Imagine being investigated for a sickening crime with no knowledge of who has made allegations against you what evidence they claim to have, and not even knowing the crime you are alleged to have committed. That's the story of my guest on Bleeding Daylight today. We'll hear his alarming story in a few moments.

Please remember to share this story with others and connect with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please follow Bleeding Daylight wherever you listen to podcasts. It's free and it'll ensure you never miss an episode.

Speaker, author and pastor Markus Watson faced accusations that threatened to destroy his livelihood and trash his reputation. He was betrayed, investigated by the FBI and forced out of a job. Today we'll explore his story, Markus, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.

Markus Watson 

Thanks, Rodney. It's good to be here.

Rodney Olsen 

Working in ministry wasn't your first career choice. In fact, I believe that the bright lights of Hollywood seemed to hold more of an attraction for you back in those early days.

Markus Watson 

You know, when I was a kid, my dream was to be a movie star. That's what I that's, I used to pray dear Lord, You know, as a little kid, you Lord, please help me to be an actor. While I'm still a kid, I still I wanted to be like a child actor. Probably good that I wasn't. As I got older, I was like, yeah, you know what, I don't want to be an actor, I want to be a director, you know, I wanted to tell the stories and be in control of the stories. And so after college or at the end of near the end of college, I got an internship in Hollywood as a production assistant, which is kind of the the bottom of the totem pole, that's, you know, that's the person who goes and gets coffee or delivers this script to that person over there, whatever. And is it kind of assists with a production, it was fun, it was a great experience for a while, until I realized that if I was going to succeed in Hollywood, I was going to have to make that my number one priority in life. And I couldn't really do that. I love God, I loved my church. You know, in college, I'd been involved in Campus Crusade for Christ. I mean, that was really my number one priority was my relationship with God. And I realized that if I was going to keep pursuing Hollywood, I was going to have to set that aside. And that's not to say that there aren't any faithful Christians in Hollywood, I know that there are, and some people maybe are better able to manage those priorities, than I might have been. So anyway, I got to the point where I realized that I was gonna have to leave Hollywood. And that was that was really, really hard. That was probably up until that point in my life, certainly, the hardest decision I've ever made. That dream had been with me for my entire life, you know. And so letting go of that dream was like cutting my arm off. I decided that I would do one of three things, I would either go on Stanford's Campus Crusade for Christ, which I enjoyed, or I would get a master's degree in communication, or I'll go to seminary and I lived in LA at the time and Fuller Seminary was nearby. And so I applied at Fuller Seminary, applied at the other two as well, Campus Crusade and, you know, explored some other graduate schools for communication. And I could get into those latter two, by the following January, I could get into Fuller, that fall. And I thought, well, let's give seminary a shot, you know, and if I don't like it, I'll pursue one of these other options. And when I got Fuller, first day of class was patristic theology with John Thompson. And I loved it. And I just thought, Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe I get to learn all this stuff. patristic theology, by the way, theology of the early church fathers, right. So just early church history. Gosh, I just felt at home, I didn't yet feel like I was being called to be a pastor, necessarily, but I did know that I was in the right place. That call to become a pastor was clarified over my time while I was in seminary. You know, several years later, I finished and I got ordained as a Presbyterian pastor and I got my first call to a to a church in Union, Kentucky, as an associate pastor out there.

Rodney Olsen 

It's interesting that you had that self awareness then as a young man to say, you know, this is something that's a dream for me, but I know it's not kind of benefit me to pursue it. I wonder what life would be like if many more of us had that self awareness at a young age to say, yeah, this is a desire, but it's not a good one.

Markus Watson 

I don't want to give myself too much credit. It was, I mean, I, you know, I had grown a lot in my faith in college, but I'll be honest, you know, there were some difficult moments in that Hollywood experience. That was part of the self awareness, if you can call it that is just that, who I didn't like that. I didn't like that. You know, there were these expectations that you would work all hours of the day, especially if you're at the bottom of the totem pole. You know, no matter what even for no pay the couple of funny little stories, one was, I was delivering a script in the days, you know, just prior to email being widely used. So I was delivering a script to the host of this TV special, but delivered it to the wrong place and kind of stuck it through the door of the wrong unit in this condo complex. And I came back and the producer was like, You can't make mistakes like this. He's a star, you can't do this with a star. And then he goes, Well, he's not a star, but he is a celebrity. And I'm like, Oh, interesting. So there's a hierarchy that even with the big famous people, you know, and so there is that. And then the last job, it became clear, for me, it was a temporary job for two or three or four weeks at a company that did movie trailers, it had the possibility of becoming full time. And they did just decided not to keep me and I said, Oh, why, you know, what, was there anything I could have done? And they said, Well, you could have offered to stay late, meaning without pay, you know, beyond the eight hours per day, and I was just like, oh, okay, I see. And that was kind of, for me the, the last thing so you know, so that awareness came through difficult circumstances, and I was just kind of ready to let it go. But I do think that, you know, the more we can develop that self awareness, even as much as possible at a young age, the less pain perhaps we go through later in life, or the more less difficulty we go through later in life, if we can get started on the right track, I think it would have been harder for me had I stuck to my guns and said, I'm gonna make this work. I'm gonna make this work, even though I really kind of started to realize this just isn't gonna work.

Rodney Olsen 

And I'm sure that the irony is not lost on some that you decided not to go with a calling that was going to mean that you had to work all hours for no pay, and decided to go into ministry.

Markus Watson 

Oh, there you go. I had never made that connection. But there you go. Yep. That's funny.

Rodney Olsen 

I do remember working in a very different profession years ago, and thinking, I wouldn't go to any great lengths to continue this profession. And yet, when I considered the alternative, and back then that was to go and work in radio is like, Yeah, I'd I'd move I'd do whatever it took to actually get into that industry. And so it really starts to tell you where your true priorities are.

Markus Watson 

That's a good point. Yeah, one of the things I realized, I guess, was that I wasn't as committed to that desire, as maybe I thought I was, you know, I think my experience in college and Campus Crusade, that's kind of where my, my faith really grew and became my own. You know, that's where I began to lead Bible studies, with other you know, college students with us. I would give talks in our weekly meetings, you know, college student versions of little sermons, you know, and, and we did a lot of evangelism. That's one of the things Campus Crusade is great. And I learned, so I learned to share my faith, and that it's important for people to know Jesus. And so all of those things, kind of set me on it on a trajectory, I think, well towards some kind of Christian Leadership. And I didn't really know it, until until I knew it, I guess, until it became, but it was this unfolding, right. It's like a peeling back layers of an onion, and you get closer and closer to the core of, oh, here's what God is calling, calling me to do.

Rodney Olsen 

So we jump ahead. And you've mentioned that you started your first job as a pastor in a small church. Tell us a little about that experience.

Markus Watson 

I was still newly married. So I had been a youth pastor in a really great church. I mean, when I think back to my favorite times in ministry, it was as a youth pastor of this church, Glen Kirk Presbyterian Church in Glendora, California. Something about that relationship with those kids really clicked. I still am in touch with many of those kids. They're all in their 30s now, but I just as recently as a year and a half ago, I officiated one of their weddings. That was a non ordained position. And then I became, you know, I finished my ordination process and then so Okay, now it's time gotta gotta go. Look for an ordained position as a pastor, senior pastor, associate pastor, and so I was looking at associate pastor positions. I was wanting to stay in Southern California, because that was home. And so I interviewed with a couple of churches in Southern California. And then I got a call from this church in Kentucky. But I was not interested in that, you know, I didn't want to leave California, but I thought, you know, what I need, I need interview practice. So you know, I, I said, Sure, I'll talk with you on the phone. They almost immediately said, Hey, we want to fly you out here and interview you in person. And I thought, what the heck, it's good practice. And I've never been in Kentucky. And so my wife and I said, Yeah, let's go. Let's do the interview. And so we did. I wasn't convinced that that's where God was calling us, although I wasn't totally opposed to it. Anyway, we came back And they offered me the position. But I was holding out to see what would happen with these other two churches. Well, just kind of things didn't work out with either of them. But in my mind after a month or so I had set this church in Kentucky aside, I wasn't even thinking about them. And I, I said to my wife, after these two churches in California didn't work out. I said, Well, what do we do? And she's like, well, there's still Kentucky. And I was like, Oh, yeah, oh, no. But the more I prayed about it, the more I you know, I went for walks and just saw right Lord told me, you know, what do you do? And it just became clear that that's where God was calling us. And so we said, Yes. And we, we lived there for about three and a half years. And it was it was a good experience. I was hired as the associate pastor, for youth. After a couple of years, the senior pastor resigned, which left me as the only pastor on staff. And so then I for about seven months, until they called an interim senior pastor, I, you know, I was the guy I had to learn to preach every Sunday and, and do everything else too. And so, in a way, I kind of feel like, I think maybe that's why God called me there, right? Because God knew I was going to need to push into that kind of a role to kind of prepare me or to show me that, Oh, look, I can do this. And that's one of the things I learned was that, oh, okay, I can do this. I can, I can preach every Sunday I can. I can lead teams and, you know, lead the whole congregation, I think I got this. And so I didn't just start looking, they kind of ran out of money. Markus, I think we need you to start looking for another job. And they didn't like push me out or anything. But, you know, I was like, Okay, good. So I started and ended up in San Diego, then after that,

Rodney Olsen 

And what happened at that point, you move to another church, and what transpired as you started to pastor there at this new church,

Markus Watson 

it was great at first, you know, my wife and I were really excited to move back to Southern California. And San Diego is a beautiful city, we'd never lived there. But of course, we'd been there to Los Angeles is only about two hours north of San Diego. And we were close to family and friends, certainly within driving distance. And so we were just so excited to come back to San Diego. It seemed like a good fit this church for me for for that time, it was great for about seven and a half years. You know, we've made some healthy changes to bring some life into the church make connections with, you know, families and the preschool, and many of them started coming to church, did some work in the community partnerships with local schools, and then about seven and a half years and is kind of when things took a turn.

Rodney Olsen 

When did you start to get an inkling that things weren't going well for you there?

Markus Watson 

That's a good question. You know, I think it would be when I requested a sabbatical. So I'd been there for about seven years. And you know, a lot in a lot of churches at seven years, churches will give the pastor a three month sabbatical, at least in our tradition that happens in a lot of churches. So I requested that and I had come to this place where I was like, oh, man, yeah, I'm, I'm on the verge of burnout. I had finished doing a doctor of ministry. And then after I finished writing that dissertation, I was like, you know, I'm gonna give everything I can to the church. So for like six months, I think I preached every Sunday, except for maybe like two, something like that. I remember crawling towards a two week vacation. And I say crawling, it felt like I was crawling on my hands and knees to this toward this little two weeks vacation just like oh my gosh, I need a break. And that's when I was like, I need I need a sabbatical. And I think it's okay for me to ask for one. So I did. But there was some pushback, our elders approved it. But they needed some convincing from another pastor in our presbytery, who came and he said, here's the value and someone suggested, why don't you let the congregation vote on it? Right? That way, you get sort of a vote of confidence. So I was like, Okay. And it wasn't a unanimous vote. You know, it was like a two thirds of the congregation voted to approve the sabbatical. The other third didn't. But I was like, Well, I'm going to take it. But but that was kind of a little hint. I'm not sure everything is as good as perhaps it once was. When I did take the sabbatical. That's when things really kind of took a turn for the worse.

Rodney Olsen 

It must have been a little bit crushing to realize that this group of people that you were leading in this church, they didn't all have your back. They weren't all going in the same direction. Even though two thirds is a good majority, to know that there's a third of people who didn't believe that you actually needed a break. Must have been a little bit crushing for you.

Markus Watson 

Yes, yes. I think I maybe tried to ignore it a little bit. But you're right. It was a little bit disappointing. At a minimum, you know why? How come they don't all support this? Can't they see right how much blood sweat and tears gets poured into a church by a pastor. Me in particular in this case, right? Yeah, it was it was disappointing.

Rodney Olsen 

So it was around this time that things started to turn decidedly dark. Explain that to me.

Markus Watson 

Yeah. So I was about two weeks into my sabbatical. And I got a call from our executive presenter, who's sort of oversees our local regional presbytery. And he said, Hey, Markus, I need to talk to you about something. I said, Okay. This was on a Friday afternoon. He called He's like, Can I meet with you tomorrow was like, Oh, no, yeah, I'm gonna be up in Los Angeles, visiting my brother and some friends. How about next week? He said, No, I really need to meet with you tomorrow. I was like, Well, I mean, I'm on sabbatical. And I've got plans. Let's, let's do it some other time. And anyway, so I felt a little bit put off by that pressure. And I was like, What is this all about? So we ended up meeting on Sunday of that weekend. And he wanted to meet with my wife as well. And that's when he said, Markus, someone has accused you of having a problem with pornography, full disclosure. It's not like I've never looked at pornography in my life. But I have been in accountability relationships for a long time. And so I had been in an accountability relationship with another pastor in our presbytery. And so I wasn't worried about it. When he said that the that accusation had been made. I said, Well, what do you what do you need? And he said, I need to look at your I need to do a forensic analysis on your laptop. I said, you want to right now. And he said, that would be good. So I gave him my laptop. And I didn't want to debate it. I didn't want to not cooperate. I wanted to cooperate. And so they took my laptop. What I didn't totally realize at first, although I guess I kind of did was they weren't following our official process. There's a process for doing an investigation when someone brings allegations he was doing this kind of under the table. So he took the laptop set, it was going to take maybe two or three days and ended up taking three weeks, which was very frustrating, just because, you know, I didn't have my laptop with me. And, and I didn't know what was going on. That was the other thing, like, Why is it taking so long? Finally, after about three weeks, he called me and he said, Markus, I can't give you your laptop back, because your laptop has been handed over to the authorities and is now a potential criminal investigation. And I just, I was like, What are you talking about? What could they possibly have found on there? That would lead to a potential criminal investigation. And of course, the the accusation originally was pornography. And so I'm thinking, I mean, I know I've never looked at child pornography even right before and I had any accountability. I mean, never, ever, ever. And so, but I'm thinking is, is there something there? And you know, one of the things I worried about was, did somebody put something there, our tech guy who would occasionally work on my laptop, which had become sort of a, an antagonist in the last couple of years. And so I was worried, did he put something there? He didn't. But that's where my mind went, you know, did somebody put something there? And I didn't even know if it was pornography related. Did somebody put bomb instructions or something, you know, my laptop. And so anyway, that that led to a really, really dark time for me, because I didn't know what was happening, or what was going to happen. And you know, it just felt it was a it was a dark night of the soul is what it led to just lots of fear, lots of anxiety. And I'm kind of, you know, pros and cons to the fact that this happened during my sabbatical. I am glad that it happened during my sabbatical, because I had lots of time for prayer and reflection and silence. I had also had a great therapist that I was meeting with, who helped me to process all of this, and you know, what I was feeling and, of course, he didn't know what was happening either, but just kind of to process what was going on. But I did have a few moments of grace. I had a moment where I was sitting on my patio and spent a lot of time doing lectio Divina, and just silence and solitude and so I had just spent some time in the scriptures and I put my Bible down, I was sitting there quietly, and of course thinking about all that was going on, or that might be going on. I didn't know everything, but I was afraid, you know, and so my mind went into all of these worst case scenarios, and I thought to myself, I might lose my job, which I did eventually, you know, I thought I might lose my ordination. Yeah, I might lose my reputation right I might be remembered as that guy you know, Oh, you know what happened to Markus right in our in our presbytery among the other Presbyterian pastors in San Diego. And then I thought I might lose my family. If it looks like I'm guilty of something. Now, I don't think I actually would have lost my family. But you know, my mind was going into all of these worst case scenarios. And then I thought I might, I might become a registered sex offender. And everywhere I go, someone might I mean, people will believe something about me that isn't even true. And then I thought I could go to prison, if it looks like I'm guilty of whatever it might be. And so I had this image of myself, just sort of, in my mind sitting in a prison cell, having lost everything, everything had been taken away from me. And then it's like, in that moment, it was like I heard God say, but Marcus, no one can ever take my love away from you. And that was what I needed to hear in that moment. And in that moment, it's like God's love was more real to me than it had ever been before. You know, of course, I had for you know, for years and years and years, talked about the unconditional love of God, God loves you unconditionally, of course. And I believed all that, but I hadn't really felt it. Until that moment, that's when God's love just became so profoundly real in a way that I had never imagined. And really, I've never been able to shake that, which I'm so so grateful for. That's one of the blessings right of going through a time like this is, is what God can do, because of our suffering.

Rodney Olsen 

At this time, you don't fully know what you're being accused of, of what has been supposedly found on this laptop. But did you know who was making these accusations at this point?

Markus Watson 

I didn't. I had some suspicions. And they turned out to be right. What I found out was that it was a staff person at our church. What someone had told me, she had said was that in one of our staff meetings, she had told me about her husband's problem with pornography. And I fully recall that conversation. And then she said that, you know, when I told pastor Marcus, he just didn't react the way I thought he would I bet he's got a problem with that, too. That was sort of the foundation for the accusations. And so the staff person went to the presbytery, and said, I think pastor Markus has a problem with pornography, and then they kind of took it from there. And then what I did find out later, whatever it was, that triggered my laptop, going to the authorities, which I found out also later was the FBI. You know, it was basically pictures of my kids, you know, goofing around in their underwear when they were little. And so the person doing the analysis said, well, it's not my job to determine if this is pornography or not. I'm just a mandated reporter. So I'm going to hand it off. And then eventually, the FBI said, there's no pornography here. And so they just gave me the laptop back and closed the investigation. And so that was that was good.

Rodney Olsen 

And it must have been difficult, knowing that there was someone that you were somewhat close to within the church who is making this accusation? How difficult was it for you to step back and realize this must be coming from a pain point in her life? Because she's struggling with her husband dealing with this? How difficult is it to separate yourself from that and actually start to understand what she's going through?

Markus Watson 

It is really difficult in the moment, it's a little bit easier later on. In the moment. I wasn't even really thinking about that. I was just thinking about survival. To be honest. How do I get through another week? What happened was at the end of my sabbatical, within a few weeks, you know that my laptop was returned to me. And now all of this was an under the table investigation, right? not following the process. And so those who were involved in it said, Alright, hey is over, we're done, we can move on. Clearly, there was nothing there. Within a few weeks, someone I was hand delivered served a notice from the presbytery, saying that no formal allegations had been made. I still didn't know who it was. But now formal allegations were made of child pornography. The accusation was basically that well, since the laptop went to the FBI, there must be something there. And so that kicked off another investigation, a formal investigation this time, which after a few months, concluded again, that there was no evidence to support the accusations, which I'm really grateful for. Like at that time, I was like, somebody, somebody is not just trying to protect the church at this point. Someone is trying to destroy me. Right? They want me to go to prison, right. And so what I did find out eventually, a guy that was that was hard, and I'm not a particularly confrontational kind of a person. So I didn't really confront her at first. I did eventually bring our Chair of personnel into a conversation with her, and I brought it up and well, it did not go well. That was the last time I interacted with her and our elders said we're gonna put another elder over her as supervisor and I said, that's fine. It was really hard. I wasn't really able to begin to forgive her. I think and So after I was gone from that church A few months after that person made another accusation after the presbytery for the second time, you know, exonerated me, then she made the same accusations to our elders. So we had to deal with it with the elders. My accountability partner came in to that meeting and said, Look, I have years worth of accountability reports, if you want to see them. We had a new executive presenter at that point, he came in and said, as far as the presbytery is concerned, this is a closed matter. And so, you know, my friend and I, my accountability partner and I we recused ourselves for about half an hour came back in and our elder said, Marcus, you have our trust as our pastor and I thought to myself, Oh, maybe it's over. Maybe this is it, maybe I can finally move on. You know, it would have been great, except that one of the elders for whatever reason, decided to believe the accusations and started calling people in the congregation saying that pastor Markus is into child pornography. I didn't know that that was happening. The other elders didn't know that that was happening until about two or three weeks later, when we found out I realized, and I think so did the other elders, there's no coming back from that. Right. So there was a congregational meeting and a long discussion, you know, with me recused, but I was able to hear through the door. But you know, there was a vote to dissolve their relationship with me. And they voted to do that by a margin of two votes, it was a bare majority, you know, and then I moved on to another another work, that was a really good, wonderful place to be in that time, after leaving the church was when I was finally able to sort of step back and reflect on, you know, what might have been going on inside of her. I did know that there had been some kind of abuse in her past and, of course, her husband, his problem with pornography, so I knew that there was pain there. And, you know, they say hurt people hurt people, you know, I was able to accept that after, after some time. I remember being in the car listening to a podcast with Steve Scazzero who wrote Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. He asked in this episode, something like, you know, are you able to pray for your enemies? Something like that? And I said out loud, I think in the car, nope. I can't do that. And then I was like, oh, okay, Lord, I guess I have to do that. And so I started to I just started to pray for that person. And then a few others who were kind of involved in this. I didn't mean it, you know, with much affection I not that I didn't mean the prayer. It just there wasn't from my end, a lot of love at first, right? There wasn't much forgiveness at first, but I was like, okay, Lord, I'm called to pray for those who persecute me. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. And then, you know, over time, I was able to mean it more. And I was able to let go of the bitterness and the anger. Sometimes I wonder to myself, what would happen if I ran into that person? Now? I don't think I would hate that person. But it would, you know, it would be an uncomfortable conversation. If there were a conversation, you know, my life is not consumed with anger, or bitterness, or how could they or why did they or I hope something bad happens to them? I got I don't have any of those kinds of thoughts. So I'm grateful for that. But there's, you know, when you look at someone who has never been through anything hard, or nothing significantly difficult in life, and then he looks at someone who has been there is there's sort of almost like a shallowness. And when I look at myself, prior to this experience, I look back and I'm like, That guy was just a kid. You had no idea what life was really all about? How could I even have been a pastor at that time, of course, God is gracious and helped me be a pastor. But, but it's almost like I, when I look at that, like, I hope I never go through anything like that again. But I would not undo it. Because I have become more fully I believe, the person that God created me to be because of that experience. When a person I think, at least my case, but I think when it when a person is able to move through suffering in a healthy way, right? You can move through suffering in an unhealthy way and become bitter and angry and cynical. Right and harbor unforgiveness, right? But if you can move through it in a healthy way, I think it makes you more compassionate, I am better able to relate to people who are suffering now, even if it's a totally different kind of suffering, right? But there's a part of me that goes, I kind of understand now, right what you're going through and so I'm better able to identify with them. I'm better able to pray with people

Rodney Olsen 

Where has life moved for you since then you said that you moved into a position with a not for profit, what happened since that time?

Markus Watson 

So I got voted out on a Sunday afternoon and the very next day I was on a plane to Little Rock, Arkansas for a pastor's retreat that had already been on my calendar for six months. And so it was like, okay, God knew what I needed this week. And, and that was a place of great healing. I was, believe it or not, not the only person who had been voted out of their church that same day. So there was a little bit of commiserating there and a lot of praying for each other. And so that was a real gift to have that that following week, within a few weeks, a friend of mine who had started a nonprofit called flourish San Diego, you know, said, hey, let's have lunch. And he invited me to join him on staff of this nonprofit. But that was a really good healing place for me to be. I was there for two years. The only reason I left was because I had to fundraise my own salary. And that is really hard. And, but I loved I loved every moment being there. And it was, for me, it was really good because I wasn't in charge. Right? I got to be a part of the team. And I loved being part of that team. As it became clear that I was going to need to leave for San Diego, I had been doing a lot of guest preaching a fellow pastor who was here in San Diego and kind of knew what was going on. As soon as he heard what had happened at my church. He said, Hey, Marcus, I need someone to preach in three weeks, do you want to preach for me? And my initial reaction? I didn't say to him, but when I read the email, I was like, Oh, I don't want to do that. I told my wife and she said, I think you should do it, you need to get right back into it. I was like, All right. Okay, I'll do it. And so actually, that led to a really great ministry kind of on the side, too, is just guest preaching, you know, a couple times a month in various churches all over the San Diego area. And I loved doing that, partly because I could go and I could go home, then go to the church, preach, and then go home and no pressure. But that was that was kind of a healing thing for me to to, to be able to proclaim God's word right and use my gifts. While not having to bear the burden of leading a congregation after having been through such a difficult experience.

Rodney Olsen 

I'm interested there in both those situations with your friend who's running the nonprofit flourish. Also your pastor friend who says, Hey, come and preach for me. Yeah, I'm interested in the value of close friendships at a difficult time. Because it's its friends who come alongside you and their offers of here, come and preach or here come and work with me. Yeah, in some way, saying, I don't believe any of that. And I'm here for you. Yeah. How valuable is that for you?

Markus Watson 

Oh, my goodness. So so valuable. In fact, my accountability partner who is also another pastor, and not the one who invited me to preach that, that first time, we're good friends and our wives I like we're as couples, we are good friends. And we get together a lot. You know, when we can when it's not a pandemic. But we used to do it every every week, and every Sunday night, we would get together for dinner, he was such a blessing to me, especially during those those first few months. He went to bat for me as a as another pastor in the presbytery. He went to bat for me in ways that I couldn't for myself, because I was the one being accused. And he would raise questions Why? Why are you doing it this? or Why are you investigating him like this? You know, what? Why aren't you following the process? And he would, he would just, you know, be a friend to me. And he would text me or call me at least every other day. How you doing today? You know, you're hanging in there. He Take me out to dinner every now and then. And and it was after one of those times, that I was confronted with my own sense of lack of self worth, where I realized, Wow, he really cares about me, you know, and that became a way for me to understand the love of God to when because he cared for me, clearly, God must also care for me. Right? And so that gave me that deepen my understanding of God's love. And then after, right after all this happened, this friend who had started a nonprofit, I mean, I don't know what I would have done I suppose God would have provided something else but but this is what God provided right through this friend Jeff shoe. And it was just what I needed. Same same with this other pastor John Moser, Mount Soledad, Presbyterian church who invited me to come preach, and it was just what I needed. And and I don't think I could, you're right, I don't think I could have healed as well. I'm trying to decide if I want to say as quickly I'm not sure it happened quickly. But it happened, right, because of these friends, that I had these relationships, these support the support system that I had, that helped me get the people who knew me, right, who also knew Marcus. This isn't true, right? This is Marcus, this is not true of him. And so it was so good to have those people to help me get through that.

Rodney Olsen 

And then you move on, after a couple of years at flourish. What did God provide for you next?

Markus Watson 

So as things began to come to an end at Flourish, and I realized, okay, I'm being called to step away from here, I'd been guest preaching and there Was this one church, about two hours east of San Diego, a little rural town called Westmoreland. And there's a little Presbyterian church there. And, you know, they got my name from someone and I had been guest preaching there. Their pastor had retired and I was guest preaching there about once or twice a month on average for about a year. And then when they heard that I was leaving for San Diego, they said, Would you like to come be our interim pastor? And I said, well, let's, let's talk about that. And, you know, after some discussion on what that would look like, since they are two hours away, and it just, I think it just became clear, you know what I think this is where God is calling me now, there was a part of me that resisted becoming a pastor again, but truly, if it weren't for this little church, with some really wonderful kind, gracious people who I could tell, just loved me even as a guest preacher, but we had gotten to know each other because I was there on a semi regular basis. If it hadn't been for them for that particular church, and those particular people, I don't think I would have stepped back into a pastoral role. And it's been a really great experience. I've been there for two and a half years now. I'm their interim pastor. It's a part time position. I'm out there Sundays, and Mondays, and then I work from home the rest of the week. Right now, I'm just there on Sunday mornings, but we do a Bible study via conference call on Mondays, and they've done some really great things. They've got a food pantry, what I mean by great is just great service to their community. And I've loved to be a part of that. I can't take credit for it. Other than I asked a question one day, what else do you do besides church on Sunday mornings? And they like? Good question. And so they started this food pantry, this tiny town with lots of food insecurity. And they serve almost 200 people every week. And it's just fantastic. And it has brought life to that congregation. And I feel grateful that I get to be a part of what God is doing there.

Rodney Olsen 

And when you're not ministering there, you've got other things that are on the go, such as your podcast, also a little of that.

Markus Watson 

And that's another thing that came out of this experience. You know, my my podcast is called spiritual life and leadership. I do it because the inner life of pastors is really important for the sake of their outer life. Right? If we're going to if we're going to lead in a healthy way in our outer life, we need to have a healthy inner life of union with Jesus. And so that's kind of what the podcast is all about. How do we as pastors as leaders, develop that healthy inner life Emotionally Healthy Spirituality to us Pete Scazzero's language, right? union with Jesus? How do we navigate things like the dark night of the soul? Because we all have to at some point, and so sometimes, interviews focus on just kind of standard leadership things most of the time, there is certainly a spiritual formation component with it. Yeah, I don't think I would have even thought to start this podcast had I not been through what I went through. My podcast has been adopted by by Fuller Seminary as part of their new church Leadership Initiative. God provides in surprising ways. And I'm, and is led right life is not a straight line, it is twists and turns and ups and downs, and who knew who knew something like that was going to happen.

Rodney Olsen 

So in the same way that you had a number of people who had your back through a difficult time, who were able to provide that support, you're able to do that to a whole range of pastors and leaders.

Markus Watson 

Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. That's really my hope and my goal. And that comes partly out of being at Flourish San Diego where I was able to support pastors during my time there and encourage them and, and so I just, I really do I love that I love being able to help pastors, because I know I'm not the only one who has struggled. And I know I'm not the only one who has suffered.

Rodney Olsen 

NACA, so if people are wanting to get in touch with you, if people are wanting to listen to the podcast, what is the best place for them to find you?

Markus Watson 

Yeah, so then go to my website, markuswatson.com and that's Markus with a K. A lot of times people misspell it with a C because that's a common spelling but it's Markus with a K, markuswatson.com you find my podcasts there, I've got some other resources. Anyway, you can check those out that are available for free. And I've also got a book that I released about a year ago called Beyond Thingification which, in part comes out of my experience as well and as well as some other things, but you know, a lot of times churches do what they do in order to either survive or just get bigger, right and and we tend to lose sight of the people that were called to care for and we think defy them and so we need to get beyond thingification So I invite you to check that out as well. You can find that on the website too.

Rodney Olsen 

Marcus, it has been a delight to chat to you. I will put connections into our show notes at bleeding daylight dotnet so that people can find you there but Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for being so open and honest and sharing your story today on bleeding daylight.

Markus Watson 

Thanks so much, Rodney. I really I love your show. And I think you're doing a great work by sharing these stories too. So I appreciate getting to be here and telling my story.

Emily Olsen 

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