Show 258 – Recorded 10-5-24 – This show features an interview we had with musicologist and blues historian Roger Brown who traveled with his high school buddy George Mitchell to find, meet, befriend and record a great group of aging jug band era and country blues artists in and around Memphis in 1961 and 1962 when Roger and George were around 18 years old. This podcast is a remastering of our Podcast #83 with corrections and additional dialog from Roger that you will find informative. Our featured artists are Sleepy John Estes, Will Shade, Charlie Burse, Furry Lewis, Gus Cannon, Hosea Woods, Catherine Porter. Please give a listen.
Blues Disciples: 258
by Sleepy John Estes, Will Shade, Charlie Burse, Furry Lewis, Gus Cannon, Hosea Woods, Catherine Porter
https://media.blubrry.com/bluesdisciples/content.blubrry.com/bluesdisciples/Blues_Disciples_Show_Podcast_258_10-5-2024.mp3
This transcript was generated with speech recognition software and reviewed by human transcribers. It may still include inaccuracies. Please listen to the episode audio for precise quotes and email any queries to [email protected].
Jamie Anthony: Hi. Welcome back, and thanks for joining me. I’m Jamie, and I am a blues disciple. Please join me for a little while to listen to some excellent blues music and learn a little bit more about some of the artists and key figures in the blues. With this music, we hope to touch your soul and please your heart.
In the process, we’d like to baptize you in the blues. Today, we’ll focus on some tremendous blues artists rediscovered by legendary blues historian, producer, and talent genius, Mr. George Mitchell, and his high school buddy and fellow blues historian, Mr. Roger Brown. As I mentioned last week, we caught up with Roger earlier. And today we’ll listen to to some excerpts from our Skype discussion to afford you an up close, personal, and behind the scenes look at their 1962 trip to Memphis when these 2 18 year old Atlanta boys found, partied with, and recorded legendary country blues artists, Sleepy John Estes, Furry Lewis, Will Shade, Gus Cannon, and others. The music we’ll play for you today is with one exception, going to be from the 1985 Tennessee Legends, the George Mitchell collection LP by Southland Records.
So I asked Roger to take us back to June 1962, where after several days in Memphis with that great group of artists that we’ll introduce to you a little later, Roger and George are getting ready to say goodbye to Will Shade, the legendary Memphis Jug Band leader. And then Will Shade gave them a lead to find the legendary country blues artist, Sleepy John Estes. Here’s Roger.
Roger Brown: Walking out in the parking lot with Will Shade, and all of a sudden he says, Sleepy John Estes still living up in Brownsville. And so we were, George and Jim Lester and I, and so we decided on the spot. We were going to Brownsville, which was out of our way. It’s north of Memphis.
Roger Brown: But, so we drove into the the the main square of Brownsville and we accosted a young black fellow pedestrian. And George asked him if he if he knew John Estes. He said, yeah. John Adam.
You know, his name is John Adam Estes. Right? Yep. This guy knew he knew exactly what we were talking about and he happily got in the car to drive us out there. And this is out in the outskirts of Brownsville.
And we arrived and there was a there was a house, and the across from the house was look looked like just a shack. And, no John Estes. He wasn’t there. But a few minutes later, he rides up sitting in a pickup truck, sitting shotgun. And we walked over and and stuck out a hand to shake, and he didn’t react. We didn’t know he’s blind.
He was blind. Right? So once we got past that, I think he may have been confused. He may have thought we were I forgot who the guy was that had discovered him a week a month before.
But we he knew we wanted to hear him play, so he sent he sent a little boy up to that shack to get his guitar. And then, came we brought down into the house, and George hooked up the tape recorder. And before he could set the levels, he cut loose with, Rats in My Kitchen. Recent composition because he thought he refers to 61, 62 rats in that in that song, you know. So on on the album there, you can tell the the the beginning is missing, you know.
All them rats would be in my kitchen. I have, I bought me a mountain cat. You know, they when they store on my groceries, I declare it’s tight like that. Anyway, so remember, we only had 15 minutes worth of tape left. One of the reasons we only had 15 minutes of tape left for Sleepy John Estes was that we recorded this drunken jam session the night before with Gus and company, Charlie Charlie Burris and Will.
Broke my heart when and and a little in the middle of it, George interviewed him a little bit. You know, how old are you right now? You know, 58. We had read in Big Bill’s Blues or whatever was a mendacious account of he was a what? He said he was an ancient railroad caller or something.
So we’d always assumed he was long long dead. Long dead, old guy. 50 – a mere 58. And, anyway, so and the tape ran out in the middle of that beautiful Mailman Blues.
Jamie Anthony: Now country blues legend sleepy John Estes was born in Tennessee in 1899 according to most sources, but Mr. Estes said he was born in 1904, so we’ll go with that date. Then he passed away in 1977. Mr. Estes was labeled by early country blues legend, Mr. Big Bill Broonzy, as the Crying Bluesman for his over emotional singing style. Sometime before 1920, Sleepy John teamed up with his buddies blues harpist Hammy Nixon And mandolin player Yank Rachel. To perform and then record a number of country blues recordings on into the 1930s, including the blues classic “Drop Down Mama.”
Those early recordings were great, but Sleepy John Estes still had to return to farming in order to make a sustainable living. So Mr. Estes recorded very little in the 1940s and 1950s. Now from 1962, we’ll play 2 recordings by Mr. Estes. The first was cowritten with Hammy Nixon in 1937 entitled “Floating Bridge.” And the second song, “Trying to See” or “Mr. Pat,” was written by Mr. Estes. And like the first song, this song was recorded in Sleepy John’s home in Brownsville, Tennessee by George Mitchell and Roger Brown.
As we were remastering podcast number Podcast #83 this past week, I spoke with my friend Roger Brown to get a few more insights and comments on his and George Mitchell’s December 1961 and June 1962 trips to meet, party with, and record members of the Memphis Jug Band and their friends. Here Roger speaks about Sleepy John Estes keeping time with his foot stumps.
Roger Brown: Anybody listening to that Sleepy John should listen to that foot of his, which Mark Wilkerson said sounded like a bass drum on that half rotten floor.
Jamie Anthony: Folks, as you listen, please put yourself on the couch directly across the room from Sleepy John Estes.
Roger Brown: When the tape ran out in the middle of “Mailman Blues,” he he asked for whiskey, and all we had was 2 Pabst Tall Boys. We gave him our 2 Pabst Tall Boys, and the $4 we had among us. That’s exactly what we had in all. We emptied our wallets, and that was it. And drove all night back to Atlanta.
Jamie Anthony: Good golly. That’s amazing. Now let’s hear Roger tell us about their short search and finding the one room apartment of the founder of the Memphis Jug Band, Mr. Will Shade, which was located at the corner of 4th and Beale Streets.
Roger Brown: We drove in my 57 Chevy and stayed with his aunt. Drove to Beale Street the next morning, got parked at Handy Park, 4th and Beale, expecting to search all day. We walked across the street into a pharmacy. There’s an elderly white pharmacist. We asked him if he knew Will Shade.
No. And he said, ask Charlie. He’s been on this corner 50 years. Uh-huh. On our way to Charlie, somebody said, ask Whiskey, he knows more than Charlie. And so this guy Whiskey was standing there, and we asked, do you do you know Will Shade? He didn’t say a word. He just he just turned and and hit walked across the street in an alley, and we followed him up dingy stairs, wrapped on the door, and said, son, brother, I saw you see you. And so we were we walked up to we and we could hear the tinkle of a tenor guitar. 8 o’clock in that morning because they were warming up to go play for tips in the lobby of the Peabody Hotel. So Will Shade sticks out of what I’d call a a large paw and says, Shade’s my name. And I said, we’ve come all the way from Atlanta to find you. And he’s and he motions. He says, they’re from Atlanta, Charlie. Let’s play on the Kansas City Blues. Wow. Like a non sequitur. You know, they recorded it in Atlanta in 27. Right?
Roger Brown: I’m telling you I’m telling you they erupted. He’s too old. They were they were not in good shape. Guys in their sixties, but over sixties. Yeah. And they erupted. And I was that’s the only time in my life I’ve been delirious without morphine. It was that powerful.
Jamie Anthony: So for this remastering of Podcast #83, we got a clarification from Roger Brown that the recording of “Kansas City Blues” we had played originally was not like the rendition of “Kansas City Blues” that Roger and George were greeted with in 1961 when they first met Will Shade and Charlie Burse. In 1962, with a borrowed tape recorder from one of their teachers, Roger and George asked Will and Charlie to reenact their performance 1961. And here it is.
Jamie Anthony: So after Kansas City Blues…
Roger Brown: We gave them a ride over to Peabody and watched. They were performing there on this fountain with the duks and all that.
Charlie Burse was duck walking as he played his guitar. And Shade was was plucking on the oil can bass and some white guy came up and engaged him to come up to play for a party in a hotel room. We went back to pick him but they had already left. His he was having trouble with his leg. So we reconnected with him back at his one room apartment there.
Jamie Anthony: And I asked about Furry Lewis who came over later that afternoon.
Roger Brown: He connected us with Furry. Yeah. His guitar was in his guitar was in hock. So he played he played on this little $13 Sears Roebuck guitar that, Jim Lester had with him with a missing string, missing little E string.
Jamie Anthony: Then I asked Roger, what did you think when you first heard Furry Lewis sing?
Roger Brown: When I first heard Furry Lewis sing, boy, when you listen to a lot of Furry, he’s all off and running that guitar. I was spellbound. I mean, he was as I said, he was in great form. Apparently, where’d you stay last night? Well, that you probably heard that, that blind guy, Abe McNeil, shouting interjections.
Yep. He got a couple of dirty looks from Will for that. But anyway, didn’t faze Furry. All I could say is I was impressed. I mean, immensely impressed.
See, I visited him every time. Memphis was halfway between Atlanta and and Lawrence, Kansas. So I either stopped and visited either Furry or Gus or both for years. You know, I, I bought him. I said you had your tea yesterday or something.
Bought him. I asked him what he wanted. I bought him a bottle from Mill Farm. I think it’s bourbon. He said, “somebody always comes to my rescue.”
Anyhow, plenty of exposure to Furry, and he thrilled me every thrilled me every time.
Jamie Anthony: Blues legend Mr. Walter Furry Lewis was born in Mississippi in 1893 and passed away in 1981 at the ripe old age of 88. Furry had a long career that like a number of his peers had a rebirth starting in the early 1960s. In 1976, folk artist Joni Mitchell wrote a song about Furry Lewis titled “Furry Sings the Blues” and recorded it on one of her folk albums. When Furry Lewis first heard that Joni Mitchell song, he remarked that he despised the song and furthermore that he felt Joni Mitchell should have to pay him royalties for his being the subject to her song. Yep.
Furry Lewis was a unique and original blues man. Now here are 3 songs by Furry Lewis. The first was written and first recorded by his buddy, Sleepy John Estes in 1948 entitled “Brownsville Blues.”
The second was written and first recorded by Furry in 1928 entitled “Mistreatin’ Mama.”
And the third was also written by Furry entitled “Fare-Thee-Well, Old Tennessee.”
Again, these songs were recorded at Will Shade’s 4th and Beale Streets Apartment.
Jamie Anthony: So that you don’t have to look it up, the very first Jug band started up in Louisville, Kentucky in 1923 and were composed of several musicians using both conventional and homemade musical instruments. The earliest Jug bands had at least 1 glass or stone jug that would be blown creating a bass sound like a Susa horn. Other homemade instruments, such as spoons, stove pipes, bones, washboards, wash tub, or oil can bases were then combined with conventional instruments like guitars, fiddles, kazoos, drums, and harmonicas. The ex vaudeville and medicine show musicians, who comprised the jug Bands of Louisville and Memphis, performed their blues, jazz, and ragtime numbers to growing audiences through the 19 twenties. Harmonica, guitarist, and vocalist, Mr. Will Shade, led the most recorded jug band, the Memphis Jug Band, from 1926 to 1934.
Some of the blues women who sang with the Memphis Jug Band were the legendaries Memphis Minnie, Hattie Hart, and Will Shade’s wife, Jenny Mae Clayton Shade. Another popular Memphis Jug band was led by banjo guitarist and vocalist, Gus Cannon, with his Jug Stompers. Following the decline of the Jug Band’s popularity in 1930S these two gentlemen started performing together and formed ever changing little groups up until their passing away in 1966 and 1979, respectively. The first blues artist George Mitchell and Roger met at 4th and Beale Streets when they first visited Memphis in 1961 was Mr. William Will Shade, who was also known as Sun Bremmer and was born in 1898 in Tennessee and passed away in 1966. As we mentioned earlier, Roger and George spent several days with Will Shade and his group of blues buddies and legends while recording some of the very best country blues music ever.
All the while, buying and sharing quite a bit of the ever so modestly priced Golden Harvest Sherry and having the time of their young lives. Here, I asked Roger what he thought about Will Shade’s harp playing.
Roger Brown: You know, I think he was underrated as a harp player. You know, they say, oh, I guess I think it was Charters wrote that, Cannon Jug Stompers were superior to the Memphis Jug Band. Well they didn’t record nearly nearly as much. And Noah Lewis was great, but so was Shade.
They just they’re just different.
Jamie Anthony: Yep. Yep. I think Shade and them, recorded more than anybody else during their brief….
Roger Brown: It was, like, 27 to 34, I think.
Jamie Anthony: Yeah. I think I saw a a photo of him. You had mentioned it too earlier.
Roger Brown: Yeah. The old Ken Bates, and she’s sitting in a simple chair right behind him. It was an old tenement. No doubt about that.
Jamie Anthony: Wow. Did you have a group of people just kinda coming and going while you guys were there?
Roger Brown: During the day, yeah. During the day, you know, I got Catherine Porter sang “Pretty Baby” and something else. Charlie, of course, was there and some of the time, Abe was there. Some of the time, neighbors just dropped in, non musical people. You can see one of those guys in a t shirt sitting next to Charlie Burse when he’s playing his tenor guitar with a Golden Harvest Sherry bottle in front of it.
Jamie Anthony: Now to kind of feature Will’s harp playing, we’ll hear Furry Lewis on guitar and Will Shade with his harp and vocals on a number he and Furry worked out together at Will’s apartment titled “The Train.”
Jamie Anthony: I mentioned earlier that banjo guitarist and vocalist, Mr. Gus Cannon, also had his own jug band, the Jug Stompers, back in the 1920s and 1930. One of his old playing partners was Hosea Woods. Here are Gus and Hosea as the Beale Street boys with Gus on banjo and Hosea singing this 1929 recording of their salute to that famous Beale Street intersection, 4th and Beale.
Jamie Anthony: Now back at Will Shade’s 1 room apartment in 1962 with Gus Cannon, now solo with his banjo as he sings the traditional blues song, “Boll Weevil Blues.”
Jamie Anthony: Now I asked Roger about the great song written to, and for him by, the genius blues man, Will Shea, Wine Headed Man.” Yeah. Was that all completely spontaneous?
Roger Brown: Absolutely. First thing one morning. Walked in the door and he cut loose with that. Wow. Because he you know, they would write us, ask us to send them milk money.
They they figured our parents would be reading the mail. So Jenny Mae needed milk. Right? Yeah. Sure.
They needed they needed some more Golden Harvest. That’s what they do. We we do that.
Roger Brown: And I’ll say this one. The first time we wrote them, my father my father saw me send it getting ready to send a letter to Will Shade, such a 4th and Beale or whatever it was.
Roger Brown: He said, you put you put Mr. in front of that.
Jamie Anthony: Oh, wow. That’s neat. That’s good.
So he unloaded “Wine Headed Man” on you right there on the spot.
Roger Brown: Absolutely. And we got him some. We got him some.
Jamie Anthony: I bet. That’s great.
Roger Brown: They didn’t call me to Down Home for nothing, Jamie.
Jamie Anthony: Again, from our call last week with Roger Brown regarding this remastering, Roger points out a missing piece from the original recording of “Wine Headed Man” by Will Shea.
Roger Brown: “Wine Headed Man.” I think Mitchell chopped the beginning off of that. It it was, look here, Mr. Brown. Where’d you stay last night? Your hair’s all rumpled.
You ain’t treating me right. I am tired. And he goes in the refrain. I’m tired of you low down and dirty ways. I’ll throw that in parenthetically.
Jamie Anthony: Yeah. Now here’s Will Shade with his spontaneous, “wine headed man.”
Jamie Anthony: Yeah. That was wine headed man. Now we’ll play “Furry Lewis Rag” with Furry’s guitar and vocals accompanied by Will Shade on his oil can bass.
Jamie Anthony: To me, it just it’s odd that these people didn’t get any more attention than they have. When you look at them and on many levels, these people were genius.
Roger Brown: Well, Will told us that Elvis came down there to get tips from them.
Jamie Anthony: Well, these guys were amazing.
Roger Brown: Talent. Talent. Talent.
Jamie Anthony: Yeah. Another old jug band member, Mr. Charlie Burse, showed up at Will’s apartment. And I asked Roger to tell me what he thought about Mr. Burse.
Roger Brown: Charlie Burse, you can’t is the most irrepressible person I’ve ever met, and he’s the Ty Cobb of the tenor guitar. I don’t think anybody will ever, has ever or will ever play a tenor guitar the way Charlie Charlie Burse did.
Jamie Anthony: Now from Will’s apartment, here is Charlie Burse on tenor guitar accompanied by Will Shade on his guitar with this Joe Dobbins classic “Beale Street Shuffle.”
Jamie Anthony: Well, we mentioned earlier that Will Shade’s Memphis Jug Band had several women as members from time to time and that the legendary Memphis Minnie was one of those women in addition to miss Hattie Hart, Will Shade’s wife, Ms. Jenny Mae Clayton Shade, Ms. Laura Dukes, and Ms. Catherine Porter. Jenny May, Laura, and Catherine were there and performed when all of the partying and recording took place in that one room apartment at 4th & Beale Streets in 1962. Here now is Ms. Catherine Porter with her vocals along with Will Shade and his comments and great guitar on Katherine’s composition, “Let Me Ride with You Tonight.”
Jamie Anthony: Talk a little bit about Gev Veedan?
Roger Brown: Oh, Gev Veedan? Yeah. He’s one of the great you know, he has a house annual house party with, German blues pianists, which is a hell of a shindig. He knows them all. You know, I asked I asked him once, are these guys classically trained pianists that veered off into blues, or did they start with blues?
And I met a bunch of them and a lot of talent over there. But he’s friends with all of them, and he has a collection. Just about the time I met him, Carl Gail told me that, better known as Kala, told me he had everything. And he denied that. He said, I don’t have everything.
But, you know, those guys, they swap. What one of them doesn’t have, the other one gives them, and vice versa. And those are tremendous collection, and he’s extremely generous. He’s the one that introduced me to Joe Buzzard.
I would say half my collection derives from Joe Buzzard. I shortly thereafter I went to visit I went to visit him in Maryland. I used to give him, a token of my appreciation for all the great music he sent me. I used to send him that blues calendar that they put out. And one year, I really felt indebted to him, and I figured a way to, give him a good Christmas gift and help George Mitchell at the same time.
I bought some of Mitchell’s photographs, including the last one ever taken of Robert Nighthawk. And, I sent them to him for Christmas. That wasn’t cheap, but I was very glad to do it. And then, he wanted to express his appreciation to Mitchell.
I said, don’t worry. He’s already been compensated.
Jamie Anthony: And now I thank Roger. Roger, thank you so much for your time.
Jamie Anthony: Yeah. I agree. Phenomenal wealth of knowledge. So thank you so much. Have a good week and stay safe.
Speaker 7: You too. Bye bye.
Jamie Anthony: Jamie Anthony: Now as my childhood blues hero, Mr Piano Red, used to say as he signed off his Atlanta radio show with “I hate to left you, but I got to win.” I will head on out of here too, but leave you with one more performance by Mr. Will Shade. This song is a combination of Will’s great, “Won’t you Send me Joan,” combined with lyrics from legendary jazz singer and band leader, Cab Calloway’s 1943 classic, “Jumpin’ Jive.” Here is Will Shade with his Jump and Jive. Thank you for listening, and please stay safe and healthy.
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