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There is a debate in the matter of “lavud b’emtza”. According to one opinion when there is a hole in a roof we do not look at it as if it’s closed up even when less than 3 tefachim.

Summary

The reasoning of the opinion that Ein lavud b’emtza:

Mishna: In the case of a skylight that is a tefach or less (the size of the skylight has no bearing on the laws quoted here, but it matters to other laws mentioned in that mishna):

If there is a tumah in the room, everything in the room is tamei; anything under the skylight remains tahor.

If the tumah is under the skylight, the entire room remains tahor.

According to lavud b’emtza, a hole smaller than 3 tefachim shouldn’t matter.

The other opinion: In this mishna we don’t say lavud b’emtza because it is a specific law regarding tumah which was taught halacha l’Moshe misinai.

Rabbi Yehuda bar Ilai lectured: If part of a house’s roof caved in and schach was placed there, it is kosher.

Rabbi Yishmael B’rebbi Yosi: Rebbi, you have to explain that there is a condition involved! As my father [Rabbi Yosi] explained:

If there are 4 amos from the schach to the wall it is possul. If there is less than 4 amos it is kosher (14.4). This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate

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3 tefachim of empty space disqualifies a sukkah. The sukkah remains kosher if less than 3 tefachim are empty, because up until 3 tefachim we consider it closed off because of “lavud”.

Summary

Less than 3 tefachim of airspace is only kosher if it’s near the wall, but in the middle of the sukkah [“Lavud B’emtza”] is a matter of debate between Rav Acha and Ravina.

According to one: There is lavud in the middle too.

According to the other: There is no lavud in the middle, only near the walls. (Tosfos notes that even this opinion agrees that there is lavud in middle of a wall. It is only with regard to a roof that this opinion holds there is no lavud in the middle).

The reasoning of the opinion that lavud b’emtza:

Beraisa: If a korah [a board placed over the open fourth wall of a mavuy, in which there is a rabbinic prohibition to carry, in order to permit carrying there on Shabbos] does not reach all the way from wall to wall.

Or if two boards were placed on the two sides of the open fourth wall but they do not meet in the middle:

If there is less than 3 tefachim of empty space, the arrangement suffices. If there is more than 3 tefachim of space, another korah is necessary. (So we see that lavud works even in the middle [since the korah goes across the top of the mavuy, it is like a roof - Tosfos]).

The other opinion: In the beraisa we say korah b’emtza because it is only d’rabbanan. This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate

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Summary

3 tefachim of empty space disqualifies a sukkah. (This refers to a sukkah of only 3 walls. If a sukkah has 4 walls and is split in middle by an empty space, it becomes two kosher sukkahs with 3 walls each).

Abayye: In a large sukkah the disqualification caused by 3 empty tefachim can be reversed by a wooden stick or an iron rod.

In a small sukkah [precisely 7x7 tefachim] the disqualification caused by 3 empty tefachim can be reversed only by a wooden stick, not by an iron rod. (Because here it is lacking kosher schach). This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate

Today’s learning sponsored by Issak Rodriguez

For the merit of HaRav Yisroel Brog, Shlit"a, who has been teaching bitachon in an ongoing series of lectures. Hashem should shower Rabbi Brog with an abundance of blessings, good health, Torah and mitzvos.

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Rav Yehuda quoting Shmuel: Possul schach running down the middle of a sukkah is possul when it’s 4 tefachim. Near the wall, it is only possul if it’s 4 amos. Rav says that it’s always 4 amos.

Summary

Challenge:

Beraisa (12.5): “If a sukkah was covered with cedar boards that are 4 tefachim wide, everyone agrees that it’s possul. If the boards are less than 4 tefachim wide (but more than 3. Less than 3 tefachim are mere sticks), it is possul according to Rabbi Meir and kosher according to Rabbi Yehuda.

Rabbi Meir agrees, if there is empty space between the boards as wide as the boards (even if the board is 4 tefachim wide. Rashi), and those spaces are covered with schach , it is kosher.”

According to the opinion (Rav) that possul schach only invalidates a sukkah when it is 4 amos wide, we understand why the sukkah is kosher in this beraisa.

But according to the other opinion (Shmuel), why is the sukkah kosher? Once there are 4 tefachim of possul schach, the sukkah should be invalidated!

Rav Huna brei D’Rav Yehoshua (He was the second most distinguished disciple of Rava; after Rav Papa): We’re dealing here with a sukkah that is precisely 8 amos (48 tefachim) long - there are three times “4 tefachim of board” interspersed by three times “4 tefachim of schach” at one end of the sukkah and three times “4 tefachim of board” interspersed by three times “4 tefachim of schach” at the other end of the sukkah.

There are thus 8 tefachim of kosher schach in the middle, which is [larger than] the size of a kosher sukkah (and less than 4 amos to the walls, so that we can employ dofen akumah). This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate

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Sura: Rabbanan of Rav’s Beis Medrash Possul schach invalidates a sukkah when it is 4 tefachim wide.

Neharda’a: Rav Yehuda quoting Shmuel: Possul schach running down the middle of a sukkah is possul when it’s 4 tefachim. Near the wall, it is only possul if it’s 4 amos. Rav says that it’s always 4 amos.

Summary

Challenge: We learned in a mishna (12.3): “If it is covered with a board that is 4 tefachim wide, the sukkah is kosher”.

According to Rav, possul schach only invalidates a sukkah when it is 4 amos wide, this is why the mishna deems such a sukkah kosher.

But according to Shmuel, a board that is 4 tefachim wide in the middle of a sukkah should invalidate it!

Resolution: The mishna is referring to a board that was placed near the walls of a sukkah which is only possul if it’s 4 amos wide.

Challenge: Beraisa (12.4): “Two sheets add up (since they are possul schach, they add up to 4 amos and disqualify the sukkah). Two boards (which are kosher for schach) do not add up.

Rabbi Meir: Boards are like sheets (they are intrinsically possul for schach) and they add up.”

According to the Neharda’a version of Rav’s opinion, we understand “add up” means that the boards add up to 4 amos.

But according to the Sura version, what are we discussing? If the board is 4 tefachim wide, it need not add up, it is possul! If the board is not 4 tefachim wide, why would it add up? It’s just like sticks?

Resolution: The beraisa is discussing boards that are 4 tefachim wide. The question being discussed is if the boards add up to 4 amos on the side (12.4). This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate

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The Rabbanan of Rav’s Beis Medrash hold that empty space of 3 tefachim invalidates a sukkah, and possul schach of 4 tefachim invalidates a Sukkah

Rabbah holds that while 3 tefachim of empty space invalidates a sukkah only 4 amos of possul schach will invalidate a sukkah.

According to Rabbah, the measurement of 4 amos is an absolute handed down from Moshe at Sinai. Such a measurement cannot be connected to the empty space which has a different shiur.

But according to the Rabbanan a strip just a bit less than 4 tefachim of schach possul running down the middle of the sukkah, adjacent to an empty space of just under 3 tefachim should be possul. Since there is no tradition regarding the shiur of schach possul, it is only that 4 tefachim is considered a breach, just as 3 tefachim of empty space is a breach. In that case, two almost-breaches should add up to make one breach!

Summary

Abayye to Rabbah: You’re correct regarding a large sukkah but in the instance of a small sukkah [of precisely 7 tefachim], 3 tefachim of anything other than kosher schach [both airspace and schach possul] would be possul. Since airspace and possul schach can sometimes combine, they should combine in the case of less than 3 tefachim airspace adjacent to less than 4 amos possul schach as well?!

Rabbah: The law you’re quoting regarding a small sukkah is a mere circumstance. But in ordinary cases we say that the shiur of airspace is different from the shiur of possul schach, and they do not add up.

Challenge: Is it true that when two shiurim are different, they do not add up?

Mishna: A cloth textile is mekabel tumah when it is the size of 3x3 fingers.

A textile woven from goat’s hair needs to be the size of 4x4 fingers.

Leather needs to be the size of 5x5 fingers.

A woven straw mat needs to be the size of 6x6 fingers.

A beraisa adds: Cloth and goat’s hair; Goat’s hair and leather; Leather and woven straw, add up together.

Resolution: Ordinarily different shiurim cannot add up, but there a reason is given:

Rabbi Shimon: Why do they add up? Because in one instance they can become tamei as “a seat”, as we learned in a mishna: If one combined shreds of these materials to make a square tefach, it is mekabel tumah.

What can be done with such a small square? Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish from Rabbi Yannai: It can be used to patch up a donkey’s saddle.

[Here the gemara ends and it seems that Rabbah is victorious but actually the halacha doesn’t follow his opinion. 4 tefachim of possul schach make a sukkah possul].

The gemara up to here was presented as memorized in Sura. In Neharda’a they memorized it as follows:

Rav Yehuda quoting Shmuel: Possul schach running down the middle of a sukkah is possul when it’s 4 tefachim. Near the wall, it is only possul if it’s 4 amos.

Rav says that it’s always 4 amos.

(We note that in Sura, Rav’s city, this sugya was presented as if Rav’s shittah is the one we follow in practice. In Naharda’a, city of Shmuel, they presented his shittah as the correct one. This sugya was a very difficult sugya, because of Rabbah’s style; Rabbah was very great in pilpul, as was his talmid Abayye. Here and in many other cases the halacha doesn’t follow their opinions). This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate

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The Rabbanan of the beis Medrash hold that empty space of 3 tefachim invalidates a sukkah, and possul schach of 4 tefachim invalidates a sukkah.

Rabbah holds that while 3 tefachim of empty space invalidates a sukkah only 4 amos of possul schach will invalidate a sukkah.

Rabbah said to them: If so, what if there were a strip just a bit less than 4 tefachim of schach possul running down the middle of the sukkah and adjacent to it there was an empty space of just under 3 tefachim, it would be kosher. But if that empty space were now filled with iron rods, it would become possul.

But airspace is worse than schach possul (since it disqualifies a sukkah with only 3 tefachim). So how can it be that in this case airspace would be more lenient than schach possul?

Summary

Rabbah: They said to me: According to you also, what if there were a strip just a bit less than 4 amos of schach possul running down the middle of the sukkah and adjacent to it there was an empty space of just under 3 tefachim, it would be kosher. But if that empty space were now filled with iron rods, it would become possul.

But airspace is worse than schach possul (since it disqualifies a sukkah with only 3 tefachim). So how can it be that in this case airspace would be more lenient than schach possul?

Rabbah: I said to them: The measurement of 4 amos is an absolute handed down from Moshe at Sinai. Only once the measurement is filled do we disqualify the sukkah. So until the rods were placed in the empty space, the measurement was not filled.

But according to you, there is no tradition regarding schach possul, it is only that 4 tefachim is considered a breach, just as 3 tefachim of empty space is a breach. In that case, two almost-breaches should add up to make one breach! This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate

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Mishna: If the schach is 3 or more tefachim away from the sukkah walls, it is possul. If part of a house’s roof caved in and schach was placed there: if it is 4 amos away from the walls, it is possul.

Summary

Rabbah: I encountered the Rabbanan of the Beis Medrash and heard them saying: Empty space disqualifies a sukkah with 3 tefachim. Possul schach disqualifies a sukkah with 4 tefachim.

Rabbah: I said to them: How do you know this law about empty space?

Isn’t it from our mishna? But from our mishna it seems that possul schach disqualifies a sukkah only with 4 amos!

Rabbah: They said to me: Forget about that case. Rav and Shmuel both explained our mishna as being based on the principle of dofen akumah.

Rabbah: I said to them: If so, what if there were a strip just a bit less than 4 tefachim of schach possul running down the middle of the sukkah and adjacent to it there was an empty space of just under 3 tefachim, it would be kosher. But if that empty space were now filled with iron rods, it would become possul.

But airspace is worse than schach possul (since it disqualifies a sukkah with only 3 tefachim). So how can it be that in this case airspace would be more lenient than schach possul ? This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate

This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate

This podcast has been graciously sponsored by JewishPodcasts.fm. There is much overhead to maintain this service so please help us continue our goal of helping Jewish lecturers become podcasters and support us with a donation: https://thechesedfund.com/jewishpodcasts/donate