This episode, Catherine interviews Nicki Kenyon, Director of Powered Enterprise, Nine, who has worked in leadership positions across the travel, finance and tech industries in Australia and internationally. Catherine also interviews Alex Sloane, the Director of Customer Marketing at Facebook. 

Valuable Discussion Points  

[00:49] Did Nicki sit down and plan her career? 

Nicki’s career has evolved out of her own personal development, and her career, as a result, represents a combination of different cities, companies and people she has worked in and with. Her always-on approach to learning has seen Nicki move from industry to industry in an attempt to better understand that particular area. She makes informed decisions that have taken her outside of her comfort zone which has been rewarding and challenging. 

[03:49] How would Nicki describe her leadership style?  

Nicki resonates with the idea of being a democratic leader and would describe her leadership style as inclusive and respectful. Whilst she draws on her own experience, expertise and perspective, she believes a critical leadership skill is embracing and the contribution of all people and really listening to the ideas they may have.  

[08:41] What sparked Nicki’s decision to join her first board? 

As an executive at an online travel company, Nicki found herself in the boardroom with a diverse group of directors who weren't necessarily involved in the day to day running of the business like she was herself.  However, they were just as passionate and committed to the success of the business and therefore they were able to add perspective to the job she was doing. Being part of this experience inspired Nicki towards a board approach with her career allowing her to leverage her skills in different ways.  

[12:31] What is the one thing Nicki wished she had known when she set out on her board careers? 

For Nicki, the accountability and the responsibility of a board directorship is not something to be taken lightly and she thinks any prospective board member should consider that carefully and not be distracted or flattered by an opportunity that presents itself. Another is the importance of fully understanding board dynamics, learning where you fit in amongst it and appreciating the value each member has.  

[14:57] What sort of manager and leader is Alex? How would she describe herself?  

Alex believes her role as a manager and as a leader is to create an environment for others to succeed. Her goal is to ensure that everyone has the best experience of their career when they're working alongside her, and to provide opportunities for people to thrive,  learn,  grow and succeed. 

[17:09] What Alex thought of taking the AICD course versus an MBA?  

Whilst Alex was considering undertaking her MBA, she was encouraged to take the AICD course instead as the modules within this course aligned more closely with her career experience. One of her favourite modules was the finance module which was a surprise to Alex, who is much more of a strategic, creative person by nature, however this module exposed her to new ideas and concepts that she found incredibly enriching.  

[18:08] What is the importance of sense and clarity of purpose for Alex? 

Alex strongly believes that aligning personal values to the values of the company you’re working for or with is incredibly important and leading with a clear sense of why you are there is critical. 

[21:29] What is the one thing Alex wished she had known when she set out on her board careers? 

Like Nicki, Alex agrees that responsibility and legal accountability are extremely important to understand. Being part of any board, you are surrounded by a group of very diverse thinkers and it can be difficult to navigate sometimes. Diplomacy can only bring you so far but knowing the board’s varying tenures, different backgrounds and accomplishments can alleviate this. Additionally, Alex found the  AICD course extremely helpful in preparing her for this. 

[26:42] What kind of boost to confidence did the course give Alex and Nicki? 

For Alex, taking the knowledge and experience of the AICD course back to her current role gave her an increased understanding that ultimately benefited her customers. She had a better understanding of what the boardroom conversation was like, particularly around marketing, investment and all the different factors that go into it. 

For Nicki, it confirmed to her that she made the right decision. The course was very serious and practical, the relationships she was able to build with her cohorts were very valuable. Passing the exams gave Nicki a huge confidence boost and made her feel that she came out of the course more rounded and committed to embarking on her board career.  

Key Learnings  

• Opening yourself to new learnings can guide you towards new companies, organisations and industries.  
• Mentors are important, they can energise you, allow you bounce ideas off them and sense check yourself through another person’s perspective.  
• Moving from an executive to a board position has less to do about age or stage of career but more about skills. People work through their careers at different paces, people have different jobs and these create a different number of experiences.  
• A network is important, people from all over the country and from such diverse fields, can be incredibly enriching.  

Quotable Quotes  

“My career opportunities have often come about because of that always on learning trait I have, curiosity, if you like.” – Nicki Kenyon 

“I think the single most powerful outcome or outtake from that experience would be a genuine embracing of diversity of thinking.” – Nicki Kenyon 

“If a company or a CEO doesn't have a clear sense of purpose, it's harder for me and everybody else in that organisation to support the organisation's goal.” – Nicki Kenyon 

“I don't believe there's an age or stage that necessarily is the trigger for it being the right time for a board, because, again, there are as many different boards as there are people in their experiences.” – Nicki Kenyon 

“I think being in a company where my values feel aligned to the company's values has always been important and leading with a clear sense of why you're here is critical.” – Alex Sloane  

“I love that phrase, her success is not your failure and I think that's so important. There's plenty of glory and success and opportunity around for everybody so keeping that in mind as you help people but you also ask for help as well.” – Alex Sloane  

Important Resources and Links  

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. 

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. 

If you’re interested in connecting with Nicki and Alex or viewing their professional portfolios and achievements, visit their LinkedIn: 

Nicki - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicki-kenyon 

Alex - https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandra-sloane-gaicd-4720954  

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, and Iain Wilson. 

This episode, Catherine interviews Pip Marlow, the CEO of Salesforce ANZ & ASEAN, and previously the CEO of Customer Marketplace for Suncorp Group and Managing Director of Microsoft. Pip is also a non-executive director of Rugby Australia, sits on the Vice-Chancellor’s Advisory Board at UTS and is a member of the Chief Executive Women.

Valuable Discussion Points

[10:05] What is Pip’s criteria for selecting board roles?

If Pip was asked to sit on a board in the banking and insurance industry before she joined Suncorp, she would have been hesitant as this is not somewhere she had previously pictured herself. If she had held that perspective, she would have missed out on one of the best development opportunities of her career. So for Pip, taking time to understand why you think you're not interested in something and testing your biases and your assumptions can actually open up an incredible opportunity for yourself and your career.

[14:13] What are Pip’s thoughts on board diversity?

Pip is a big believer in board diversity; however, she wouldn’t let a lack of diversity on a board stop her from taking a certain role This is because it empowers you to get that first seat at the table, seek to understand why it hasn't occurred to date and look at what systems, symbols, and policy settings need to change to ensure that more diversity can flourish in the future.

[18:05] Is Pip a user of social media?  Does she think social media is useful to a board director?

Pip believes social media is a powerful platform that has responsibilities for each user. There is a conversation going on there which people have a choice to participate in to use for good not everybody does that, but the conversation will occur either way.

[24:47] On the number of female CEOs in the ASX200 dropping down, what are Pip’s thoughts?

Pip believes the rate of change has been glacial and as a result is truly deeply dissatisfied with progress. When she saw the latest stats with the ASX numbers decreasing, she saw that as a real sign of concern. Pip says that this is not a women’s issue, this is a gender equity issue and if we don't do something proactive to change that participation, then we'll accept where we are which is not good for our future generations.

[28:58] What is the one thing that Pip wish she’d known when she started out on her board career?

The first thing Pip wishes she had known was not to let your fear hold you back. The second thing is to know the difference between management and board. What are your decision rights? Your role is to govern, to oversee and to set risk appetite and ultimately help to get that balance right.

Key Learnings

• You have to be organised and conscious on how you use your time and your trade-offs. Have a habit every month of tracking how you are spending your time; did you spend enough time for your family? For your customers? For your strategic thinking?
• When a board is reaching out to you, there is nothing wrong with doing due diligence. A little bit of discovery and exploration in those early conversations will go a long way and contribute to your decision-making process.
• If you opt not to join a board after a role is offered, the best gift that you can give is to promote other men and women. Shine a light on some of the talent that they may not see.

Quotable Quotes

“Shareholders are not only one, your employees are stakeholders, your community is a stakeholder, your customers are stakeholders, and sometimes certain stakeholders have one object they care most about, maybe that's profit. You have to think beyond just one particular stakeholder and just the shareholders to the broader community that you serve and operate in.” – Pip Marlow

“I try and say it's not about something being right for you. It's what's best for you right now because if only something one thing is right, everything else is wrong. When we put that pressure right and wrong in a decision like this, I think it can stop you taking a step forward because you're worried about it being the wrong thing.”– Pip Marlow

“If it's not the right one for you, shine a light on some of the talent out there that may not be seen by other people because that's the gift you can give.” – Pip Marlow

“When I feel like I'm a female raising this issue, people say are you self-serving? This isn't about self-serving. This is about everybody having equal access to jobs opportunities.” – Pip Marlow

“You can't let your fear hold you back because that holds you back from contributing, holds you back from helping others. So don't listen to your fears, your imposters, your insecurities. You're sitting at that table because you earned it.”– Pip Marlow

Important Resources and Links

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/.

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html.

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818.

If you’re interested in connecting with Pip Marlow or viewing her professional portfolios and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/pipmarlow

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson

This episode, Catherine interviews Dr Marlene Kanga, a Non-executive Director of Sydney Water Corporation, Standards Australia, Air Services Australia, and Business Events Sydney. She is also President of the World Federation of Engineering Organisations.  

Marlene is an Honorary Fellow of the Institution of Engineers Australia, the Institution of Chemical Engineers [UK], Fellow of the Academy of Technology Science and Engineering [Australia], the Australian Institute of Company Directors and a Foreign Fellow of the ASEAN Academy of Engineering and Technology.  

She has been listed among the Top 100 Engineers in Australia and the Top 100 Women of Influence in Australia.  

Valuable Discussion Points  

[07:00] Women are often told that they can’t be what they can’t see but for Marlene, this does not seem to be the case, what drove her and why did she not feel those barriers?  

Marlene had a clear sense of purpose and believes she is one of the very fortunate people that knew about engineering and the impact it can have. She wanted to make a difference. When female engineers are asked why they do engineering, most often that's what they say, to make a difference. 

[09:46] What can Marlene say about people with STEM backgrounds who are not well represented  on many boards but whose skills are really needed?  

Marlene believes the reason behind this lies in the whole process of board selection. It is a systemic issue that really needs to be addressed. When someone comes along and brings a different point of view, it can be a long process to build that trust and reliance because on a board, you're working collectively and if something goes wrong, you're all responsible.  

[13:30] What are Marlene’s thoughts on the lack of women who are studying science and engineering? 

Marlene’s theory is that the countries where engineering first became a formal profession at the start of the Industrial Revolution as a formal profession, in places such as the UK, Europe, the USA, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand, and Australia, there was a male dominated culture. So it started out as a culture that excluded women and that culture continued. It is very insidious but it is there and so there are less than 20% of women attending engineering schools in these countries with very low levels of participation and similar cultural issues. 

[24:21] Who and what motivated Marlene? 

Marlene’s motivation is really to be of service. She does not look at these roles for personal gain.  For her, the leadership is about outcomes and if someone is driven by purpose, they can have a good outcome and leave a great legacy but also importantly, inspire other leaders, and mentor and support them.  

[25:31] Why is it important not only to have more engineers in this country but also to have them represented on all of the boards? Why at this particular time is that so important? 

Marlene believes that Australia is now at a very critical inflexion. In a post COVID-19 world, there is an inflexion and acceleration into new technologies. Countries around the world have the fundamentals and are gearing up for that, not just in the United States, but also in India, China and many countries in Europe who are going to forge ahead. Australia has got to be innovation ready and Marlene does not think Australia is currently at that point. Australia is in danger of being left behind with dire consequences for economic growth and prosperity if these issues are not addressed. 

[28:28] What is the one thing Marlene wished she had known when she started out? 

Marlene is glad she did not know a lot when she first started, as she believes she may not have explored so many diverse areas. However, one thing she wishes she had known is to reach out and ask people for support. Marlene believes people are extraordinarily generous and those who actively seek support and guidance can benefit greatly from this.  

Key Learnings  

• Diversity, not just being accepting of women but also of different cultures, is a continuum of an organisation’s culture of safety.  

• The board’s role is not to worry about the availability of women engineers or leaders who are qualified to fill the roles but to create a pipeline of organisational processes, systems and culture that is ready for them.  

Quotable Quotes  

“… engineering is all-pervasive. Yet as engineers, we don't talk about it. We don't sell it enough and we don't talk about how this can actually advance our economies as well, create jobs, create prosperity and create a better world. In fact, I say to young engineers, if you want to change the world, become an engineer, because that's one of the few careers that give you the skills to make that difference.” – Dr Marlene Kanga 

“So by default, everyone is risk averse and everyone rather work with somebody they know and trust rather than take on somebody new because what's in it for them, they don't see the benefit or the value.” – Dr Marlene Kanga 

“People confuse what engineers can do and actually, you know that part of that technical work is a very small part of engineering. There's a huge amount of conceptual thinking, critical thinking to be done to develop solutions where there are none.” – Dr Marlene Kanga 

“It's not just policies and procedures but it's really transforming the culture and it's engaging the entire organisation into saying every member of our organisation is important and we value you, not in spite of the fact that you're different but because you are different, because you are different, you will bring something to the table that that we don't have, that we don't know and that's why we want you and that's why we need you. I think valuing everyone is very important.” – Dr Marlene Kanga 

“I say to them as engineers, if you had apipeline and you were going to supply a township with 100,000 litres of water and there's avery leaky pipeline, what would you do? Would you pump a million litres an hour to get that volume or would you fix the pipeline? What's the sensible thing to do? So let's fix that pipeline, which is so full of holes.” – Dr Marlene Kanga 

“Male engineering leaders say so what do women want? We've got all the policies and procedures and they're still leaving and they have a blind spot. They don't see it because, of course, they don't have women often at the table, at the management table to bring up certain issues.”– Dr Marlene Kanga

“So there are a huge number of reasons for greater diversity on boards, but especially, I think, in terms of science and engineering, because the future is all about technology and you simply can’t ignore that.”– Dr Marlene Kanga 

Important Resources and Links  

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818

If you’re interested in connecting with Dr Marlene Kanga or viewing her professional portfolios and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/marlene-kanga-am-31107126  

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson. 

This episode, Catherine interviews Su McCluskey and Hannah Wandel.  

Su is currently Commissioner of the National COVID-19 Advisory Board, the Australian Centre for International Agricultural Research, Director of the Australasian Pork Research Institute, the NSW Marketing Board and the Australian Unity Limited.  

Hannah is the Acting Executive Director, Drought Policy and Programs of the National Drought and North Queensland Flood Response and Recovery Agency, CEO Advisory Panel Member of the Commonwealth Bank and Chair and CEO of Country to Canberra. 

[00:49] How important was it for Su to have lived in a regional area in shaping her priorities and values?  

For Su, living in a regional area has given her a different perspective. As she does a lot of work in the cities, she is very conscious of helping people understand that when it comes to regional areas, they are very diverse, and one size does not fit all in regard to solutions. The decisions made by board members affect those right across the country so it’s important to include the perspectives of people not just from cities but also from more regional areas.  

[09:23] What is Su’s experience with the COVID Commission Advisory Board?  

For Su, being a part of this particular board has been a unique and wonderful opportunity to be able to provide business insights and perspectives directly to the Prime Minister. She has worked in government and she knows that in government you've got a lot of people who can work on really good policy proposals but it's important to look at the practical side in terms of how things will work in practice. In times of crisis like we have now, you don't have the time to be able to put something in place and say, let's see how this goes. You have to have a greater level of confidence that what you’re putting in place is actually going to work, make a difference and address the challenges you're trying to fix. 

[11:23] What is the one thing Su wished she had known when she started out?  

For Su, it was hard to learn how to say no. She thinks this is a really important thing for people to think about when they're looking to take on board roles. Individuals need to ask themselves, are you going to be the right fit? Are you going to be able to constructively contribute? Will this just look good on your portfolio? Additionally, individuals need to probe the company about how the role aligns with their own values.  

[13:59] What can Hannah tell us about the Country to Canberra programme? 

Hannah truly believes that living in regional, rural and remote Australia is an asset and something that really should be celebrated. However she also noticed there were some additional challenges that kids growing up in the country were facing when it came to distance, time, funding barriers and inequality between the opportunities kids in the country could access compared to their city counterparts. When you compound this with gender issues, she decided she wanted to do something to empower young women from rural areas. Through the Country to Canberra programme, these young women are supported to achieve whatever it is they want to achieve. 

[17:46] What Hannah had to address when she was a young woman on the board? 

Hannah was really nervous sitting on my first board and she really didn't know what to expect. Fortunately, she had incredible training and undertook some courses but as time went on, she had some great mentors and people who really reinforced her skills and capabilities. It wasn't always easy though and there were times where her youth was seen as something that wasn't to be valued or she was seen as the token young person. She even got introduced once to a group of people as the young person, which she didn't appreciate because she felt she had a lot more to value. Her experience of being a young woman on a board has taught her the importance of having these voices heard.  

[21:07] What is the one thing Hannah wished she had known when she started out? 

The one thing Hannah really wishes she knew is not to be scared to be part of a board. There are various fiduciary duties and a lot of really important things that you need to know so it’s important to do your due diligence, but at the heart of it, it’s about having common sense. There is a huge level of important issues you've got to deal with it, but at the end of the day, it's about managing yourself well, showing leadership and ensuring the values of an organisation are upheld.  

Key Learnings  

Choosing a board role can be very difficult, you have to know not only when to say no but also how to say no. It is important to ask yourself if you are going to be a right fit.  

• Regional Australia is an asset but there are challenges for the regional youth in terms of distance, time, funding, opportunities and other inequalities.  

• Do not let yourself be pigeonholed, instead have a broad spectrum of knowledge and skills. 
• Boards need to have someone coming from the regional, rural or remote areas; they are an important part of these discussions.  

Quotable Quotes  

“…when it comes to the regions, they are very diverse. One size doesn't fit all when it comes to solutions – Su McCluskey 

“... if you've got a board that agrees then you haven't got diversity because you actually want challenge and you want differences, view but that you have the ability to then be able to come to a decision that everyone's comfortable with.” – Su McCluskey 

“Often the strain on women at that point of their life is really quite intense. You've got to look at parental duties, school duties, work duties and what I would also say is there are so many talented women in that demographic, whether it's their 20s or 30s.” – Hannah Wandel 

“There were a couple of times where my youth was seen as something that wasn't to be valued or I was seen as the token young person. I even got introduced once where there was X person who was the legal specialist, another person who was the tax specialist. She is Hannah, she's the young person and I didn't appreciate that because I felt I had a lot more to value but that said, having young people's voices on boards is really important. You know at the moment, we're seeing a situation where young people's employment due to COVID, young people's futures are really, you know, it's a challenging time. It's important that we focus on young people, but also young people have incredible skills when it comes to social media, digital skills coding, a lot of things that we could really utilise on boards. So for me, I felt really eager to contribute. I felt like as time went on, I was offered more and more opportunities. I think sometimes it's just about getting a foot in the door, having a few people that believe in you and it and it continues from there” – Hannah Wandel 

On public service, “when you really care about your community or, you know, the economy or social issues, it's a great way to give back but also make a living and be able to contribute.” – Hannah Wandel 

Important Resources and Links  

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. 

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. 

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. 

If you’re interested in connecting with Su McCluskey and Hannah Wandel or viewing their professional portfolios and achievements, visit their LinkedIn via  

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sumccluskey  

https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannahwandel  

 The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson. 

This episode, Catherine interviews Dr Kirstin Ferguson. She is an award-winning leadership expert and shares how opportunities in board careers can drive change. She is the Deputy Chair of ABC, and a Director at SCA Property Group, EML and Hyne Timber. 

Valuable Discussion Points  

[03:37] What were the skills needed on Kirstin’s first board role? 

For Kirstin, one thing that became clear to her is that on a board you are not the doer, but rather you are there to ask the strategic questions and look at things with the bigger picture in mind. Kirstin’s first board role allowed her to utilise her technical knowledge from having built her own business, however it took her a couple of years to hone the skill of applying that strategically. Whilst it was tempting for her to always look at  the detail, the role was about asking the right questions and finding the right ways to help guide executives. 

[05:53] What Kirstin thinks about the advice of sticking to just one particular area? 

Looking back Kirstin can see that her own career has not been a linear one however she enjoys doing different things make her a much more well-rounded director. For Kirstin every single experience she has allows her to bring mistakes and lessons and apply those learnings to what she is doing now.  

[07:29] How important are mentors for Kirstin? 

Having mentors, advisors and sponsors is incredibly important for Kirstin. She recommends that board members, regardless of experience  seek mentors out and value the time they give you. Mentors are really important because there is a lot of experience out there to draw from and it can enhance your own skills and understanding when sitting on a board. 

[08:17] How does Kirstin select mentors? 

It's not always as easy as simply picking someone and saying ‘I'm going to have you as my mentor’.  There needs to be a natural connection that you have with a potential mentor so it’s important to select people that you find easy to talk with and that seem to be willing to offer you advice. 

[09:46] What can Kirstin say about her proficient use of social media? 

Kirstin recalls having directors tell her to stay away from social media as she wouldn't be taken seriously because social media is not a place for directors to be. Whilst she is glad to be given that advice, she chose to find a way to use social media that is beneficial for her as director.  Social media is incredibly important to understand what's going on in the world around us. You hear views outside your bubble of people that you might sit in a boardroom with. You can hear about your industry or about the company. You also hear everyday perspectives that are important to forming a judgment and a view on certain topics, particularly social issues. These are all increasingly important for directors. 

[16:32] What advice can Kirstin give to those considering moving into a board career? 

Kirstin recommends having as many diverse boards as you can. Her current makeup of boards is two listed boards, two private companies and a government board and that works really well for her. Listed boards are wonderful companies but have a whole different set of pressures. Private companies are also good because there is generally a smaller distance between the board and the executive. Kirstin also likes to ensure she sits across at least one government board in order to give back and find ways to contribute to the community in society.  

[28:27] What is the one thing Kirstin wishes she had known when she set out on her career? 

She wished she had known there was no reason to rush, to trust herself and relax throughout her early board career. Once you do that you can enjoy what is to come and make choices that feel right for you personally and for your career.  

Key Learnings  

• Every single experience you have, you can bring mistakes and learnings and lessons from those periods to what you are doing now. 

• The use of social media is important for directors. It offers a whole wealth of networks that a director can tap into to find strong contacts and advocates. 
• Do your due diligence when considering a board position. Looking over at financials, strategy or reading board papers can only get you so far. Much more important is understanding the chair, their decision-making processes, the makeup and the dynamics of the board. 
• Leadership is being authentic, empathetic, having EQ and technical expertise.  

Quotable Quotes  

“I'm really glad that my tool kit might look a bit like Mary Poppins because there is a whole bunch of weird stuff in that bag but all of it together combines to give me a really diverse range of experiences to draw on.” – Kirstin Ferguson 

“I tend to think of all my mentors and advisors a bit like a buffet, go to them for different things but I'm very grateful for them and I highly recommend you really value and appreciate what they can provide.” – Kirstin Ferguson 

“Every woman is a role model.” – Kirstin Ferguson 

“Board meetings are your bread in a sandwich so they sort of frame what you're doing. There needs to be something in the middle as well and I'm someone who needs to be doing more..” – Kirstin Ferguson 

Important Resources and Links  

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. 

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. 

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. 

If you’re interested in connecting with Kirstin or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstinferguson  

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson. 

Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

This episode, Catherine interviews Professor Megan Davis. She is the winner of the AFR Women of Influence Award; she is the UNSW Pro Vice-Chancellor Indigenous and a Professor of Law, UNSW Law. The UN Human Rights Council to UNEMRIP elected her in 2017. She shares her experience and thoughts on being an Aboriginal woman in the UN, the Australian Rugby League, ATSIC, and the Uluru Statement from the Heart. She emphasises the importance of standing up and unapologetically speaking out to get the job done. 

Valuable Discussion Points 

[10:59] What are Megan’s thoughts on having more Aboriginal women in boards? 

Megan strongly encourages boards to think carefully about who they're talking to and who they're reaching out to when looking for new board appointees, to ensure a diverse range of talent around the table. She believes boards that put in the ground work to determine the purpose of the board, and appoint people based on the skills they could bring to those conversations will benefit the most. Those that don’t face the risk of missing out on huge amounts of talent and knowledge in the community. 

[12:56] What are her experiences at the ARL Commission? 

Megan has a passion for rugby league so being invited to be part of the top governing body in the country was a huge privilege and honour for her because she was able to contribute towards shaping the future of the game and all the many people that follow it. She strongly believes having a passion for the work you’re doing on a board is important because it requires a huge amount of time, effort and dedication. 

[19:05] What Megan thinks about the Black Lives Matter impact in Australia? 

Some of the matters that have arisen throughout the Black Lives Matter movement certainly resonate with the indigenous community. Black Lives Matter is something that traverses many topics from reparation, police brutality and the incarceration rate and Megan believes a systematic way to approach Black Lives Matters is for corporations to endorse Uluru. As an Australian Law reform proposal, it sets out structural ways to address these issues which can only be done through the Constitution.  

[22:47] With her key role with the Uluru Statement of the Heart and all other work she has done, how does she deal and cope with media attention? 

Whilst Megan acknowledges that media attention can be exhausting and can make other things complicated, it is important to maintain a media presence in order for this reform to happen. Fortunately for Megan, in terms of her work on the Australian Rugby League Commission, the support for Uluru came from our indigenous voices so the commission built into its system the voice of the NRL which represents all Aboriginal stakeholders. She did not have to be an activist in the boardroom; the NRL had already endorsed Uluru.  

[24:36] What success and progress does Megan believe will be tangible in the next few years? 

Megan believes success would come through a referendum sometime in the next term of government and if not, then a commitment to one in the following term. Once both sides of politics are talking in a positive way about it then it's just a matter of timing. She also believes having Aboriginal people on boards does make a huge difference to decision making and the way critical thinking is applied to particular decisions.  

[28:05] What's the one thing Megan wishes she’d known before she started out on a board and forum career?

Megan wishes she had not apologised so much which she does by virtue of habit, however she thinks It's really important to trust your own instincts and to back yourself. As women we can often be criticised as too confident if we self promote, however that can get in the way of good business so it’s extremely important we train ourselves out of that.  

Key Learnings  

• Business and corporations around the country have endorsed and supported the Uluru Statement and that shows a real shift in Australian culture.  
• When considering a new board member, it is really important for boards to contemplate the work that needs to be done, who can do it and who can bring value and skills to the table, not just pick an Aboriginal person in the boardroom.  
• While the Black Lives Matter is a complicated thing, the issues resonate with the indigenous community. BLM traverses many topics and a systematic way to approach BLM is for corporations to endorse Uluru.  

Quotable Quotes  

“I think it's really easy for businesses to kind of stop with the usual suspects names or their mates or people who look the part but aren't necessarily going to bring what you need to the table… depth of knowledge and confidence to talk up and confidence to move outside of your own particular sphere of knowledge or influence, which is what makes a great board.” – Megan Davis 

“I'm not someone who's coming to an area and doesn't have a command of the game.” – Megan Davis 

“Boards do have a role to play, particularly in the way in which the organisation and other stakeholders deal with indigenous matters.” – Megan Davis 

“The issue is how Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are to deal with these matters in a structural way that's changed and that can only be done through the Constitution, anything else is kind of very piecemeal and ad hoc.” – Megan Davis 

Important Resources and Links  

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. 

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. 

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. 

If you’re interested in viewing her professional portfolios and achievements, visit her profile: 

https://research.unsw.edu.au/people/professor-megan-jane-davis 

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson. 

Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

This episode, Catherine interviews Non-Executive Director and Sustainability Advisor, Sam Mostyn, one of Australia’s most experienced female board directors and chairs with experience that spans business, government, sport, the arts and community organisations. Sam talks about the responsibility of being a trailblazer, why she’s not concerned about being a quota appointment to a board and why women should worry less about why they’re asked to go on a board and think more about the skills they bring to the table.  

Part 1 (of this two-part episode) 

Valuable Discussion Points  

[00:48] Why did Sam take the board pathway, what came up and what crossroads did she find herself facing? 

Working as a senior executive at Insurance Australia Group, Sam was approached by the Australian Football League with an opportunity to be the first female appointed to its board. Whilst it was a huge decision, Sam felt it was the right one and would provide her with invaluable skills and life experience for her future career. In addition, it also gave her an opportunity to help change the whole nature of governance in a sporting code that she cared about and bring her own skills and knowledge to the table.  

[03:28] Was the experience a baptism of fire?  

Sam was the first female appointed board member within an industry that has traditionally been very male-dominated. Whilst, Sam knew the role would require a high level of self confidence, sense and tactics which she mentioned can be difficult at times, she was surprised to learn that whilst the Australian Football League is viewed as a very masculine organisation, women play an extremely important role in supporting these organisations. As such, Sam made a conscious effort to ensure that whilst she was the first female appointed board director, she certainly wouldn’t be the last, with five strong female leaders having been appointed since her commencement.  

[06:29] Her support of the quota system and how she opened the doors for future female board members? 

Women still do not have parity in most industries and companies and as a result there needs to be quotas and systems in place that ensure women are seated at the table where important decisions are being made.  Women, who believe these quotas are not meritorious appointments should aim to decouple the word merit from quota and understand that they were chosen because they were the best person for the job. For the women who are offered  these opportunities, Sam encourages them to accept and show their great character, strength and merit rather than worrying about how they got there. up to them to bring their best self into those rooms and open the way for others to come. 

[08:30] When is it the right time to make the transition to a board level position, such as a NED?  

There are arguments for both taking on the role of a NED, or remaining in an executive role. It comes down to the strengths each woman has built over their careers. It is important to understand that a NED role is not for everyone, it is not a lifestyle choice and can be very demanding and challenging. However, it is also extremely rewarding. 

Part 2 (of this two-part episode) 

Valuable Discussion Points  

[05.27] Has she said no to a board approach? 

Sam’s approach to being a board member is to ensure she has a balanced portfolio of organisations ranging from ASX companies, to non-profits, to charities. Whilst many opportunities have presented themselves, Sam chooses those businesses and roles that she cares about. It doesn’t matter whether the company is big or small, or whether it adds lustre to her CV, if the company values do not align with hers, it is not a board where she can deploy her best skills. 

[16:59] What has changed in the boardrooms? What is different now? 

There are more women in the boardrooms now and whilst this is not a numbers game, we are still not where we would like to be in terms of representation. At the core of it, it is about the quality of the decision-making and governance and that will always benefit from having more women and more diverse people in those rooms. The topics have also changed. Things that were previously very hard to raise are now front and centre. 

[19:53] What is the one thing that Sam wishes she’d known when she set out on her NED career? 

She wishes she'd known what actually happens when a group of people are charged with the responsibility of some of the most complex business decisions in an environment where the rest of the world is watching the outcomes. There’s no end to the complexity of discussions that come with a group of people on any board. The importance of a chair in being able to lead the conversation, allowing it to expand without becoming disruptive and then bringing it back to reach a resolution is invaluable.  

Key Learnings  

• Women will not get into boardrooms through hoping, wishing or praying. Targets and quotas are needed and when women are appointed, their job is to carry out the role effectively.  
• There's a whole psychology of women on boards when you are the first or second about how you're heard. 
• Carefully choose which company you are going to spend your time with and where you will deploy your skills. Don’t get stuck somewhere for five years just because it was a nice thing to do at that time.  
• Let your chair know what you are bringing to the table, don’t let it be a surprise to the board.  
• Make it your business to know what moves the board, and what things are happening in their lives. The more you know about someone and what moves them, the greater the possibility that you can move and drive them.  

Quotable Quotes  

“So decouple the word merit from quota and know that you're being appointed because you were the best person for the job.” – Sam Mostyn 

“The idea that it's just a natural move from the executive world non-executive is one to retest. It's a very personal decision about where you really want to deploy skills and talent.” – Sam Mostyn 

“I don't think the chair should have some greater power or role other than to be the conductor of the best outcomes from the team around the table.” – Sam Mostyn 

“You get only one chance on entrance to negotiate or talk to the chair about what it is you want to bring.” – Sam Mostyn 

Important Resources and Links  

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. 

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. 

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. 

If you’re interested in connecting with Sam or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-mostyn-45a1a32  

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson.  

Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

This episode, Catherine interviews Non-Executive Director and Sustainability Advisor, Sam Mostyn, one of Australia’s most experienced female board directors and chairs with experience that spans business, government, sport, the arts and community organisations. Sam talks about the responsibility of being a trailblazer, why she’s not concerned about being a quota appointment to a board and why women should worry less about why they’re asked to go on a board and think more about the skills they bring to the table.  

Part 1 (of this two-part episode) 

Valuable Discussion Points  

[00:48] Why did Sam take the board pathway, what came up and what crossroads did she find herself facing? 

Working as a senior executive at Insurance Australia Group, Sam was approached by the Australian Football League with an opportunity to be the first female appointed to its board. Whilst it was a huge decision, Sam felt it was the right one and would provide her with invaluable skills and life experience for her future career. In addition, it also gave her an opportunity to help change the whole nature of governance in a sporting code that she cared about and bring her own skills and knowledge to the table.  

[03:28] Was the experience a baptism of fire?  

Sam was the first female appointed board member within an industry that has traditionally been very male-dominated. Whilst, Sam knew the role would require a high level of self confidence, sense and tactics which she mentioned can be difficult at times, she was surprised to learn that whilst the Australian Football League is viewed as a very masculine organisation, women play an extremely important role in supporting these organisations. As such, Sam made a conscious effort to ensure that whilst she was the first female appointed board director, she certainly wouldn’t be the last, with five strong female leaders having been appointed since her commencement.  

[06:29] Her support of the quota system and how she opened the doors for future female board members? 

Women still do not have parity in most industries and companies and as a result there needs to be quotas and systems in place that ensure women are seated at the table where important decisions are being made.  Women, who believe these quotas are not meritorious appointments should aim to decouple the word merit from quota and understand that they were chosen because they were the best person for the job. For the women who are offered  these opportunities, Sam encourages them to accept and show their great character, strength and merit rather than worrying about how they got there. up to them to bring their best self into those rooms and open the way for others to come. 

[08:30] When is it the right time to make the transition to a board level position, such as a NED?  

There are arguments for both taking on the role of a NED, or remaining in an executive role. It comes down to the strengths each woman has built over their careers. It is important to understand that a NED role is not for everyone, it is not a lifestyle choice and can be very demanding and challenging. However, it is also extremely rewarding. 

Part 2 (of this two-part episode) 

Valuable Discussion Points  

[05.27] Has she said no to a board approach? 

Sam’s approach to being a board member is to ensure she has a balanced portfolio of organisations ranging from ASX companies, to non-profits, to charities. Whilst many opportunities have presented themselves, Sam chooses those businesses and roles that she cares about. It doesn’t matter whether the company is big or small, or whether it adds lustre to her CV, if the company values do not align with hers, it is not a board where she can deploy her best skills. 

[16:59] What has changed in the boardrooms? What is different now? 

There are more women in the boardrooms now and whilst this is not a numbers game, we are still not where we would like to be in terms of representation. At the core of it, it is about the quality of the decision-making and governance and that will always benefit from having more women and more diverse people in those rooms. The topics have also changed. Things that were previously very hard to raise are now front and centre. 

[19:53] What is the one thing that Sam wishes she’d known when she set out on her NED career? 

She wishes she'd known what actually happens when a group of people are charged with the responsibility of some of the most complex business decisions in an environment where the rest of the world is watching the outcomes. There’s no end to the complexity of discussions that come with a group of people on any board. The importance of a chair in being able to lead the conversation, allowing it to expand without becoming disruptive and then bringing it back to reach a resolution is invaluable.  

Key Learnings  

• Women will not get into boardrooms through hoping, wishing or praying. Targets and quotas are needed and when women are appointed, their job is to carry out the role effectively.  
• There's a whole psychology of women on boards when you are the first or second about how you're heard. 
• Carefully choose which company you are going to spend your time with and where you will deploy your skills. Don’t get stuck somewhere for five years just because it was a nice thing to do at that time.  
• Let your chair know what you are bringing to the table, don’t let it be a surprise to the board.  
• Make it your business to know what moves the board, and what things are happening in their lives. The more you know about someone and what moves them, the greater the possibility that you can move and drive them.  

Quotable Quotes  

“So decouple the word merit from quota and know that you're being appointed because you were the best person for the job.” – Sam Mostyn 

“The idea that it's just a natural move from the executive world non-executive is one to retest. It's a very personal decision about where you really want to deploy skills and talent.” – Sam Mostyn 

“I don't think the chair should have some greater power or role other than to be the conductor of the best outcomes from the team around the table.” – Sam Mostyn 

“You get only one chance on entrance to negotiate or talk to the chair about what it is you want to bring.” – Sam Mostyn 

Important Resources and Links  

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit https://aicd.companydirectors.com.au/. 

If you would like to learn more about how CommBank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit https://www.commbank.com.au/women-in-focus.html. 

Host of the Board Level podcast, Catherine Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit https://www.abc.net.au/news/catherine-fox/5244818. 

If you’re interested in connecting with Sam or viewing her professional portfolio and achievements, visit her LinkedIn via https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-mostyn-45a1a32  

The Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk and Iain Wilson.  

Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

Join Rebecca Warren, General Manager, Strategy & Transformation, Commonwealth Bank, as she sits down and speaks with Board Level Host, Catherine Fox. 

As you probably already know, Catherine is an award winning journalist, author, presenter and leading commentator on women and the workforce. 

Valuable Discussion Points

[00:57] How has working in the finance and journalism sectors shaped your idea of female role models? 

Catherine began her career in one of what was then, a big five trading bank, as a graduate. What struck her immediately was the number of talented women that were in this sector, but even more so the glass ceilings that so evidently were raised above them. Catherine recognised the lack of mobility in this sector when it came to women in the workforce, moreover, leadership roles were few and far between for women. Once Catherine had joined the Financial Review, she felt as if she was joining her tribe as a journalist, as she noticed a much more diverse workplace, and one that seemed to harbor and foster women leaders in a way that the finance sector just hadn’t yet. While noting the diversity of journalism and media in general, she still understands the gaps in equality in regards to opportunities and senior roles.  

[03:44] Are these experiences what fostered this fight for gender equality and the path in which you’ve navigated throughout your career? 

Catherine recognises that it’s not an overnight feeling, anything like this, it only develops over time. Growing up in a family that promoted equality and understood shared values and opportunities regardless of gender, Catherine posits her tenure at the University of Technology, Sydney, as the place where she had her eyes opened. Developing a better understanding of what equality actually means, Catherine took these lessons she had learnt at UTS and ensured that they permeated wherever she went, especially the workforces she had joined, ones that she believed were riddled with inequality of opportunity. 

[05:52] What do you think makes a good leader and when have you seen leadership done well? 

Catherine states that she’s seen fantastic leadership from both men and women throughout her career, however, due to her teachings and the awe she has for women who break the mould, she naturally has learnt or seen the best leadership through their decisions and judgements. While Catherine admits that describing a good leader is difficult, she admires people that are adaptable, and have the ability to adjust based on feedback, and are willing to take on board criticism if it will progress the group as a whole. Catherine also recognises the importance of courage within a leader, especially someone willing to challenge the perceptions of their industry and stand up for what they believe is right. 

[08:06] What have you learnt from holding an advisory role on gender in the Australian Defence Force, which is a traditionally male dominated field? 

Stepping into a role where she advised a field that was not only male dominated in regards to the recruits and workers, but in leadership, Catherine knew she was dealing with a problem regarding the current system and structure. Catherine posits that the Chiefs of Service and other commanders were honest and forthcoming with their lapses in judgement and progressiveness in regards to adapting the social and cultural movements of the Australian Defence Force. They were willing to work with people like Catherine to improve not only the gender equality issue, but the overarching issue of human equality within the Defence Force. 

[12:13] What do you think we need to do to tackle the problem of both gender and culture diversity within the workforce together? 

Catherine recognises the role of the Race Discrimination Commissioner, among others, in instilling the right values, resources and people so that the systems that are currently in place become more inclusive, regardless of race or gender. She posits that the diversity of race is high in many of the financial and accounting services, however, the more senior and partner positions are still dominated by Anglo-Saxon. Catherine herself is involved in the Asian Leadership Project, which aims at equipping minorities with the tools to succeed and progress within the workforce. 

[14:26] In your book, Stop Fixing Women, you not only speak about some of the things we can put in place, but the importance of language and the perception that women are perhaps less suited for certain roles. Can you elaborate on this, and maybe share some of your insights? 

Released in 2017, Stop Fixing Women, was about informing organisations that they’re wasting their time, money and precious attention on trying to fit women into a traditional norm, made traditional by men. Catherine believes this model, and the language that’s currently put in place to attempt to reduce the gender gap, has become counterproductive, and instead, hopes to promote a more inclusive, adaptive and mobile structure. Catherine wants businesses to remove their common ideas of what leadership looks like and imagine a world where it’s done differently, and give it a chance.  

[18:45] What type of projects do you have in the works at the moment? 

Spending the last few years of her life focused on writing and releasing her books, Catherine has now pivoted and begun speaking at a number of events and taking on advisory roles with a number of organisations. Her discussions at these events, and the advice she’s now sharing, centers around making people and organisations look at what doesn’t work and adjusting. Catherine has a belief that people need to stop trying to innovate our way around equality within the workforce, rather management and senior representatives need to have the intention to want to make change happen. 

[20:25] While it may not be as swift as you would like, do you see this intent for change happening? 

Catherine recognises that over time, the conversations have changed. Nearly all businesses are willing and able to speak and shift their practice to better suit all genders. The norms and roles that men and women once played within the workforce are slowly being broken down, and just becoming a workforce.  

Key Learnings 

• Organisational change that aims at working towards a more equal workforce doesn’t have to be innovative, it’s achieved only through the true intentions of wanting to make change happen for the better. 

• Reducing the gender gap will not be achieved through trying to fix women, rather through changing  the traditional perception of leadership to suit the modern and adaptive workforce. 
• Educated, talented and willing workers are leaving their roles and industries because they believe they’re being restricted and marginalised due to their ethnicity or culture. 
• A good leader is someone who is open, and willing to speak to anyone regardless of position or role. They’re also courageous in their convictions, as, while adaptive, they are willing to fight for what they believe is right. 

Quotable Quotes 

“I walked into the newsroom, and felt like I had found my tribe” – Catherine Fox 

“I went to [The] University of Technology, Sydney, to do a communications degree, and fell in with a bunch of radical feminists, which was really eye opening. I started seeing the world in a very different way” – Catherine Fox 

“[Leadership is] about personality, style and warmth” – Catherine Fox 

“Stop Fixing Women was very much about saying to organisations – stop wasting time, money and precious attention on trying to fit women into a traditional male breadwinner norm. It’s not working. Worse than that, I actually think it’s counterproductive” – Catherine Fox 

“If we intend to change, we can. This is not rocket science” – Catherine Fox 

Important Resources and Links 

If you would like to gain knowledge in governance with the AICD, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit here. 

If you would like to learn more about how Commbank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit here. 

If you would like to connect with this episode's host of the Board Level podcast, Rebecca Warren, please visit here LinkedIn, here. 

Catherina Fox is one of Australia’s leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you’re interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she’s currently discussing, visit here. 

Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.

Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.

Join Catherine Fox, award-winning journalist, author and presenter, for more interviews with women who are making an impact in the boardroom.

Board diversity and gender balance deliver better outcomes for shareholders, consumers, employees and the community. This AICD podcast, powered by CommBank’s Women in Focus, aims to help shift the balance.