Join Rebecca Warren, General Manager, Strategy & Transformation, Commonwealth Bank, as she sits down and speaks with Board Level Host, Catherine Fox.
As you probably already know, Catherine is an award winning journalist, author, presenter and leading commentator on women and the workforce.
Valuable Discussion Points
[00:57] How has working in the finance and journalism sectors shaped your idea of female role models?
Catherine began her career in one of what was then, a big five trading bank, as a graduate. What struck her immediately was the number of talented women that were in this sector, but even more so the glass ceilings that so evidently were raised above them. Catherine recognised the lack of mobility in this sector when it came to women in the workforce, moreover, leadership roles were few and far between for women. Once Catherine had joined the Financial Review, she felt as if she was joining her tribe as a journalist, as she noticed a much more diverse workplace, and one that seemed to harbor and foster women leaders in a way that the finance sector just hadn't yet. While noting the diversity of journalism and media in general, she still understands the gaps in equality in regards to opportunities and senior roles.
[03:44] Are these experiences what fostered this fight for gender equality and the path in which you've navigated throughout your career?
Catherine recognises that it's not an overnight feeling, anything like this, it only develops over time. Growing up in a family that promoted equality and understood shared values and opportunities regardless of gender, Catherine posits her tenure at the University of Technology, Sydney, as the place where she had her eyes opened. Developing a better understanding of what equality actually means, Catherine took these lessons she had learnt at UTS and ensured that they permeated wherever she went, especially the workforces she had joined, ones that she believed were riddled with inequality of opportunity.
[05:52] What do you think makes a good leader and when have you seen leadership done well?
Catherine states that she's seen fantastic leadership from both men and women throughout her career, however, due to her teachings and the awe she has for women who break the mould, she naturally has learnt or seen the best leadership through their decisions and judgements. While Catherine admits that describing a good leader is difficult, she admires people that are adaptable, and have the ability to adjust based on feedback, and are willing to take on board criticism if it will progress the group as a whole. Catherine also recognises the importance of courage within a leader, especially someone willing to challenge the perceptions of their industry and stand up for what they believe is right.
[08:06] What have you learnt from holding an advisory role on gender in the Australian Defence Force, which is a traditionally male dominated field?
Stepping into a role where she advised a field that was not only male dominated in regards to the recruits and workers, but in leadership, Catherine knew she was dealing with a problem regarding the current system and structure. Catherine posits that the Chiefs of Service and other commanders were honest and forthcoming with their lapses in judgement and progressiveness in regards to adapting the social and cultural movements of the Australian Defence Force. They were willing to work with people like Catherine to improve not only the gender equality issue, but the overarching issue of human equality within the Defence Force.
[12:13] What do you think we need to do to tackle the problem of both gender and culture diversity within the workforce together?
Catherine recognises the role of the Race Discrimination Commissioner, among others, in instilling the right values, resources and people so that the systems that are currently in place become more inclusive, regardless of race or gender. She posits that the diversity of race is high in many of the financial and accounting services, however, the more senior and partner positions are still dominated by Anglo-Saxon. Catherine herself is involved in the Asian Leadership Project, which aims at equipping minorities with the tools to succeed and progress within the workforce.
[14:26] In your book, Stop Fixing Women, you not only speak about some of the things we can put in place, but the importance of language and the perception that women are perhaps less suited for certain roles. Can you elaborate on this, and maybe share some of your insights?
Released in 2017, Stop Fixing Women, was about informing organisations that they're wasting their time, money and precious attention on trying to fit women into a traditional norm, made traditional by men. Catherine believes this model, and the language that's currently put in place to attempt to reduce the gender gap, has become counterproductive, and instead, hopes to promote a more inclusive, adaptive and mobile structure. Catherine wants businesses to remove their common ideas of what leadership looks like and imagine a world where it's done differently, and give it a chance.
[18:45] What type of projects do you have in the works at the moment?
Spending the last few years of her life focused on writing and releasing her books, Catherine has now pivoted and begun speaking at a number of events and taking on advisory roles with a number of organisations. Her discussions at these events, and the advice she's now sharing, centers around making people and organisations look at what doesn't work and adjusting. Catherine has a belief that people need to stop trying to innovate our way around equality within the workforce, rather management and senior representatives need to have the intention to want to make change happen.
[20:25] While it may not be as swift as you would like, do you see this intent for change happening?
Catherine recognises that over time, the conversations have changed. Nearly all businesses are willing and able to speak and shift their practice to better suit all genders. The norms and roles that men and women once played within the workforce are slowly being broken down, and just becoming a workforce.
Key Learnings
- Organisational change that aims at working towards a more equal workforce doesn't have to be innovative, it's achieved only through the true intentions of wanting to make change happen for the better.
- Reducing the gender gap will not be achieved through trying to fix women, rather through changing the traditional perception of leadership to suit the modern and adaptive workforce.
- Educated, talented and willing workers are leaving their roles and industries because they believe they're being restricted and marginalised due to their ethnicity or culture.
- A good leader is someone who is open, and willing to speak to anyone regardless of position or role. They're also courageous in their convictions, as, while adaptive, they are willing to fight for what they believe is right.
Quotable Quotes
"I walked into the newsroom, and felt like I had found my tribe" – Catherine Fox
"I went to [The] University of Technology, Sydney, to do a communications degree, and fell in with a bunch of radical feminists, which was really eye opening. I started seeing the world in a very different way" – Catherine Fox
"[Leadership is] about personality, style and warmth" – Catherine Fox
"Stop Fixing Women was very much about saying to organisations – stop wasting time, money and precious attention on trying to fit women into a traditional male breadwinner norm. It's not working. Worse than that, I actually think it's counterproductive" – Catherine Fox
"If we intend to change, we can. This is not rocket science" – Catherine Fox
Important Resources and Links
If you would like to gain knowledge in governance with the AICD, and develop as a director in your industry or field, visit here.
If you would like to learn more about how Commbank is ensuring women are advancing their growth in business, visit here.
If you would like to connect with this episode's host of the Board Level podcast, Rebecca Warren, please visit here LinkedIn, here.
Catherina Fox is one of Australia's leading commentators on women and the workforce. If you're interested in learning more about Catherine and the issues she's currently discussing, visit here.
Board Level podcast is produced by Nicole Hatherly, recorded at RadioHub Studios with post production by Cooper Silk, Iain Wilson and Matthew Lane.
Disclaimer: Guests featured in the podcast are speaking from their personal experiences only. As this advice has been prepared without considering your objectives, financial situation or needs, you should, before acting on the advice, consider its appropriateness to your circumstances.
