Body Liberation for All

Joshua Young is a spirit-led guided meditation, yoga, and emotional intelligence teacher based in Atlanta, Ga. They guide meditation sessions that merge African Ancestral practices and philosophies to support the reimagining of wellness as we know it today. They empower BIPOC to seek a deeper connection to àṣẹ and Ori by merging guided meditation with what we & our ancestors know. Joshua cultivates practices that provide tools for moving through awakenings that encourage, vulnerability, community building, ritual, and empowerment to take steps towards healing. They contribute content for insight timer and continue to utilize this resource to make meditation more accessible and inclusive for Black, Indigenous, People of color and LGBTQ+ community members.

This episode we discuss

🌈How mindfulness can serve people of color and marginalized folks

🌈The key to releasing feelings from the body

🌈How we've been socialized to reject emotions

🌈The importance of working with healers that honor your lived experience

🌈Using money as a love offering

Episode Resources

http://trustyourori.com/

https://www.instagram.com/trustyourori/

www.daliakinsey.com

Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

Body Liberation for All Theme

They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them. Live your life just like you like it

It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You were born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

This transcript was generated with the help of AI. Becoming a supporting member helps us improve accessibility and pay equitable wages for things like human transcription.

This conversation was aired as a livestream just days after the January 6th attack on the capital, a frustrating but by no means surprising reminder of the double standards in this country.

Joshua’s insights about managing high periods of stress felt so relevant in the aftermath of the most recent mass murder of LGBTQIA+ folks in the US that I thought it an excellent time to revisit this conversation.   

Dalia: I'm so proud of us right now. Look at us, just mastering the technology. Okay, so we're officially starting now.

Hello everyone, thank you for joining us. You know what time it is. You know how extremely stressful this week has been. We already knew America loved white supremacy, but we might not have known how much and maybe didn't know how we would be affected by watching America show its ass this week.

I know for me; I was so easily triggered this week and just everything pushed me right over the edge. Someone tried to condescend to me, another dietitian on TikTok. And I like literally lost my mind, immediately. She just assumed because I'm a brown person and because I'm in a bigger body that I don't know anything and wanted references at random and I was just like, NOT TODAY.

And I just didn’t want to feel so reactive. So, I was happy that we already had this scheduled. What can you tell us about how you have been processing this week and how long you've been working on your mindfulness and being non-reactive?

Joshua: Yeah, so first off, thank you for having me. This week is interesting.

As a person who's really wanting to be living the life that is wellness, there's a lot of things that happened for me.

And one of the things that I know is that if I'm not making myself a priority, no one else will. And so, this week I had to do what I had to do and that was taking a week off of work.

And I've literally dedicated this whole week to giving something back to myself or connecting to something that's always been really important to me and making that the big news, making that the biggest thing that's happening for me.

 That’s been what's serving me. So, I've been like cooking, I've been talking to friends.

I've been just doing my best to exist in the way that I want to exist. And yeah, mindfulness and meditation and all those things show up in those spaces as well because I gotta really know who I am first.

Before I can realize, oh, it takes this, it takes that, it takes this. For me wellness, meditation, mindfulness is the only thing that I have when it comes to existing and being well, when oppression is still a thing. And it's always been.

And when it, you know, as it relates to like my body and what I'm doing with it, how people are perceiving it, wellness is like my medicine. And so, meditation is just my thing. I don't know. It's always been my thing. I think that like very early on in my life that's what I was doing.

I was just sitting, and I was just paying attention to what was happening around me. And you know, family label this as shyness, like, oh, Josh is just shy. I'm not shy. You decided that, and what I decided was that I'm gonna be mindful. I'm gonna be mindful of what's happening around me and how I'm feeling.

And that work just continued and it expanded into this, where I realized like, oh, there's like deep value in that and knowing who I am. Knowing how I feel, being comfortable with it, whether it's something that's really good or not so good. And realizing oh, I can teach people this too.

I'm a great teacher because I've been watching people and understanding how we're learning, how we are retaining information and how we're utilizing it.

So, a lot of things have been on my side when it comes to wellness and meditation. And I'm happy.

Dalia: That's so interesting that you naturally have that inclination.

And I know for some people who, depending on how you process energy and information, it is more intuitive to make the room for introspection.

I also know that for a lot of us who have dealt with so much trauma over our lifetime. We’re afraid of silence and afraid of introspection because if we get in touch with our emotions, it feels like it may just break something loose, and we'll feel outta control, we’ll feel overly distressed, and so we're afraid of it consciously or unconsciously, and we keep avoiding the silence and avoiding things like mindfulness. And this year in particular, it's been very difficult if you've been running from emotions and if you've been suppressing them. It's been hard to keep that running going because there has been so much space and room for introspection.

Joshua: Yeah.

Dalia: But like you mentioned before the call, if you don't feel the feelings and you don't process the feelings, they get stuck. So even when we think we're protecting ourselves by avoiding our emotions, running from them, they can't really be escaped. Can you talk about that more?

Joshua: Yeah. Okay. So first I wanna say this.

When I talk about the experience for people of color or from the lens of people of color, I'm talking from the lens of a Black person. I'm a Black person, and when I think about from the very start, right, learning what the emotions are all about, how to express them when it's appropriate to, what I find in conversation with other people is that we're limited to those experiences.

Sadness is not something that I was like openly allowed to experience. Like people were trying to constantly fix it. People were constantly telling me, boys don't do that. You need to cut that out. You know, this is something that you have to stop. And, you know, it was almost like in this family, you know, space, only certain people at certain levels could experience things.

So I had no room for anger. I was doing something wrong by being angry or by being sad or sometimes like expressing too much joy.

Like, you know, if we're just getting down to the truth of it. This is just, this is just it. This is kind of what's happening in the family dynamics. And so now as a young adult, I've been through it all.

I've had the anxiety attacks; I've gone through the depression. I’ve had all those experiences and I guess what I'm realizing right now is every single thing that I've ever experienced from the beginning, I'm still carrying with me in some way. So, when I'm feeling anxiousness in my stomach, or if it's getting really crazy and now it's in my heart and in my chest, it's the same thing I was feeling when I first experienced it.

So, it's just in this space and it's sitting. And so, when we are doing the work of being honest with ourselves, being open with ourselves, loving on ourselves, being, seeking out that liberation, what we're doing is we're finding the opportunities to say, hey, you are here. I don't really know why or I could know why or I could be like turning a blind eye to it.

But you're here and it's my responsibility to step into that knowing that you're here and to do something about it. Like, you can live here, I guess but personally, I'm not willing to take anything from this year into the next year with me. And the reason I'm not willing to do that is because when I do that, I am attaching myself to my past.

And it's like this thing, this chain, this connection where no matter what happens, this is always gonna be my experience. And when I'm diving into these practices, I'm giving myself the opportunity to be free.

I'm unwilling at this point to, you know, have the first experience with sadness continue to be the reminder that this is what sadness is all based on this one experience.

You can go to therapy all you want to, you can talk about it all you want to, but I'm in here and I'm gonna stay in here until you do something about it. So that, that's a lot of what like the emotional intelligence piece of my work is all about is like getting to that saying, hey, you can go if you want to.

You know, like creating the gentle invitation to just like leave. And then usually we find that that's not the case. Like it's there, it's been there and then the other invitation comes where we say like, okay, so what does liberation look like for you? Like there's something, some little part of me, some inner child that's holding onto something. How do I free that up for you? And, and that is what I'm offering people.

Dalia: Oh, I love that. When you developed your most current offering, was it this year in response to this year or what triggered it? Why state of grace and why now?

Joshua: Yeah. It's so interesting, all of the people who know me, on a very personal level they know that like the one thing that I crave more than anything is quality time, but in that quality time, peace - peace within, peace within those around me. I really jumped into teaching guided meditation and emotional intelligence this year.

I’ve already gone through the yoga teachers training, meditation trainings, like all the things, and it felt like the right time to jump in. What I realized was that when COVID was happening, it was starting, people were freaking out - I don't know how I'm gonna be at home by myself. I don't know how I can be with my thoughts for this long.

It was a lot. And so, for me it was like I do this all the time, when no one's paying attention to me, I'm sitting in a conference room in a meeting and I'm thinking about myself. I'm figuring something out about me.

And when I'm doing something like that with ease and all the time, and it’s like my natural thing, why not be sharing it with people, you know? And so, this time was the birth of private sessions, where I was one on one with people and giving them a real opportunity to say, I'm terrified. I don't know what to do.

Who am I? If I'm not working, if that's not my purpose, then what is my purpose? This is a lot of what was coming up. And so, this course you know, it's just like the thing that needed to happen. I, outside of this work, I work at a therapeutic boarding school. And so, it's like all these kids, all these emotions, and I'm like a lot of people's moms and I'm a lot of people's dads.

In that space, I've been learning how to hold space in a real way, in like, this live action its happening in front of me way, you know, I have to be thinking on my toes. And, and what I realize is like, I even walk in that space with grace. People can be yelling, screaming, destroying things, and I'm there saying, if that's what you gotta do, you know, let it out.

Like don't hold onto it. And so, I create this course, with that understanding like, things are happening, and people's responses are their responses, but the real work is figuring out how to support them in letting it go. And how to be liberated from it and how to do that with, with grace.

Dalia: The prospect of liberation, even though oppression it's just beautiful. For some of us it might feel unattainable, but I'm excited to see so many healers of color and Black healers in particular, because the amount of abuse we have sustained in this country is just, it's astronomical. Sometimes it almost seems like fiction. It's unbelievable the crimes against humanity that have been perpetrated against Black people in this country. And people are continually trying to gaslight us and say, it's not that bad. I'm like, what are you talking about? Have you ever read a book?

But to know that no matter what happens, we are going to be all right. We are able to not just survive, but to thrive and to even do healing that the generations before us didn't have the space for. It's wonderful to see how many people are dedicating time and energy to that work. And it does make me feel more aligned this year, now that I've made that shift myself to really focusing on serving marginalized people.

And if someone who isn't in those marginalized categories resonates with the message the way my boundaries are, I'm still comfortable working with them. But anybody who doesn't resonate with the message of serving the most vulnerable, serving the people with the largest amount of trauma from daily threats against our safety, constant undermining of our identities.

And then it gets even more complex and then there are more layers when we look at being somebody who's queer and Black and not finding safe places easily.

It's a whole thing.

How did you get to the point that you realized not only was it safe to integrate all of your identities into work, but that it would be healing for people?

Joshua: Yeah. Well, I wanna say something about what you just said, cuz like that is a huge part of why I'm doing the work. When I started to practice meditation, the first person of color that I ever saw doing meditation was on a TV show called Run's House. It's like Reverend Run, he's like trying to sell to Black people, like meditation's a thing.

And that was like the first Black person. And so, every person before that had been like a straight white person, like male or female, didn't matter. And they are going and like going to India and they're like bringing back this knowledge and wisdom and they're the ones who are teaching it for some reason.

Not to say that what they're teaching is not credible. But it's like this is what they're teaching. And so, in, in that meditation space where I'm like, oh, I'm starting out, I'm learning. I'm like sitting in meditation for the first time.  They're like, okay, close your eyes and let everything go. And I'm like, everything, what do you mean?

I'm, I'm barely holding onto what I have. What do you mean let go of everything? And the messages of like, yeah, what's happening on the outside world, like that doesn't matter. And I'm like, but it does, you know, like there's, you're missing something here. And I think what was missing was like the other experience.

Which is like the, the people who look like me, right, who are living like me, you're missing our experience. And there are rarely times where we can say, oh yeah, nothing matters. Like, I'm the only thing in the world that matters right now. That's virtually impossible. When we think about the typical structures of our families, when we think about how we show up to workspaces, how we show up in our friend group.

Like, Nah, that's just not possible. And so, I was disconnected from meditation for a long time. I was like, I'm not listening to a white woman tell me I don't need to worry about what's happening.

Dalia: Just don’t worry about it, yeah that’s like the mantra of the white healer/coach. Just don't worry about it. That's your ego. That doesn't matter.

Joshua: I don't know. It's, it's really crazy to think that we are now just kind of stepping into this understanding of like, oh, people have different experiences, and we must be creating offerings and spaces that welcome them.

How we're just getting to that understanding, I have no clue. This has always been something that I've understood, but it's taken a lot of work on myself, right, to realize like, this is true. And no matter if the world is saying this is true, Black Lives Matter, that doesn't mean that it's not real.

This is a real thing and it always has been. And so, what I'm, what I'm really hoping to be doing is supporting people and realizing like your ideas of wellness, they're not luxury.

They've been sold to us as luxury. I talked to a homegirl and I'm like, yeah girl, things are getting heavy, like you are telling me a lot but like, I can't hold onto that. Have you ever considered a therapist? And she's like a therapist??? You know, and it's not like I would never speak to anyone about my issues cuz like, you're doing that with me. It's more of like, well, why would I invest my time in that, my money in that? And really when we think about it, when you do prioritize yourself, like you get all this stuff back, like everything comes back to you and you are the one who's prioritized.

So, I don't think I answered your question. And I think I like lost it in that,

Dalia: you know, I really get about, just following your train of thought. It just makes so much sense that so many of us have trouble prioritizing our own emotional needs because we were raised by people who really had to work hard to keep us alive and to keep themselves alive.

And when survival is your number one priority, you don't make room for that type of emotional work. You can't prioritize releasing those negative emotions, you have trust trapped in your body and you can't prioritize really developing a practice of cultivating happiness in a hostile environment because first you have to feel safe enough to be able to do those things.

And so, no one modeled these things for us. And you're right, I always saw meditation and self-care put out there as luxury items. And when you don't see anyone Black or anybody who you know is suffering some from some kind of systemic oppression modeling, like I use this for self-care because number one, these tradition traditions originally were practiced by people who were suffering from different degrees of marginalization, even while it was being introduced to the west.

A lot of people have been using this for centuries. It's not connected to privilege really, but that's just how we've seen it used here. So, when you use these deep ancient practices to help wealthy White people feel better about themselves. Mm-hmm, it's not that like the practice is trash, it just isn't applicable to all of us because of the lens that it’s coming through.

So good for you. You get to feel better about your life as you process the human experience, which is very trying. But we are going through the same human experience with all these additional layers of systemic oppression. And your superficial spiritual practice isn't gonna do anything for me. I need something deeper.

I need something that goes beyond just this whitewashed, capitalistic kind of vapid thing, you know? And there definitely some people who are part of the dominant culture and are privileged, who are profoundly spiritual people.

But you'll notice that they would have the wisdom to say, you know, maybe I don't have all the tools I need to really help

Maybe I should bring in a guest or collab with someone else with relevant lived experience. It's just so interesting. The people that are the most irresponsible about how they, you know, help heal. Are the ones that are the most visible. And so, yes, that's my experience as well. Like everyone who was trying to sell yoga to sell meditation wasn't aware of the fact that there's more than one type of human on the planet. We're not all cis white het.

Joshua: Right. Yeah that's so true. So, when I show up in these spaces, like yeah, I show up in the spaces and I give everything that I can give.

You know, but like the challenge is like all of those people I'm still up against. So, I'll share this with you because I think this needs to be said. I do guided meditations on Insight Timer, which is like the meditation app, the number one in the world. So, I'm like contributing meditations and COVID hits.

And I watched every single person who had been working super hard, like I was giving as much as I could. I watched all those people get knocked off and then like these big names show up. And I'm like, wait, wait a minute. Like I've been here doing the work and these big names have not been contributed to anything.

How are they being the priority in this space when like, I've been the one giving to the community? And you know, it's things like that which continue the process of, hey, we're this white guy. He has really long hair, so you know, like he can put it in a bun. That's kind of like what Buddha has on his head.

Like, you know, like, and then like close your eyes with him. Like he knows . He has the vision. He's calm, he’s peaceful. Yeah. But he's also not oppressed in any way. Right. His oppression to him, right from his perspective is like us being upset. . It's like us saying Black Lives matter. That's his oppression, right.

and it still doesn't affect him because somehow, he's still making his way to the front cover. While him doing that and taking up a space that should be for me and supporting the people who I've been supporting and loving, like, I don't know, it's confusing. So, we have companies and organizations that are ran by White people who really, really, like, don't get it, like, I'm still sending them emails like, y'all better figure this out.

I'm not gonna sit around here, you know, while y'all are prioritizing white faces and I'm doing the work out here. That's not, that's not what I'm doing. Nah, I can't do that.

Dalia: % I'm just agreeing with people in the comments. First of all, the comments are cracking me up. Your, the people, I think these are mostly your followers,they love you and someone has shouted you out during the early days COVID.

It is incredibly frustrating though when you know you've been doing the work and you see someone else get like pushed ahead of you. It's just sickening to know that you have to do twice as much sometimes to get one eight of the recognition.

Yeah. So, it, it's justifiable to be angry, to know, hey, I've been doing this work and I've been giving all this love, and what do I get in response? You know, just like a spit in the face at a kick in the stomach - not very nice. But what I like is the concept of now that's a concept of now that so many of us are working on decolonization, there are more of us who are not going to contribute to that.

We're not gonna keep doing that to each other. And when we're focusing on serving other marginalized people who really are dedicated to decolonization, when we show up for our people, we are getting that love and response.

And I love the idea of being able to see my money energetically and that I put my money toward the people, the things, the programs, the practices that I want to see more of, and that it really is a love offering.

And I want for healers of color and LGBTQIA+ healers, who actually are gonna ask, what are your pronouns? Who actually are going to ask? What has your experience through this major civil rights movement been like? And how is that affecting your work? That's who I wanna work with. That's who I wanna give my money to.

That's who I wanna support. And we know that there is a way to be ethical in how we do business, but we haven't really seen it modeled for us a lot. And so, some people have this idea that, oh, if you have a gift or you do healing, you must take a vow of poverty and live on the street or something.

I just don't think that's sustainable. And then my question would be how are we modeling thriving for the people that we want to support?

So I definitely want to have healers that I can showcase like you to show what programs and offerings they have that are specifically tailored to us, that we can give them love offerings for in the form of money and receive a level of healing that other people, honestly, even if they could do it, they obviously aren't concerned about it because the way people have been  pretending at the llth hour that they don't hate Black people.

Did you see the Aunt Jamimah people saying, oh, we just realized this might mammy/enslaved person imagery might be problematic. And then when AMC was like, we just realized that maybe Black people are tired of us playing Gone with the Wind every two minutes. Oh, we just realized that y'all are tired of, all this mammy stuffy, we care we really care.

You know, like you were so late on that we're not falling for it. And no you can't have my money anymore. I can make my own cereal, or I can buy it from like, somebody who is being oppressed in the same way as me or maybe being oppressed in another way. I'll take all adjacent suffering people.

Joshua: Yes. You know, so like the, the idea of stepping into the space and like needing to have to work harder, that's real. And so, for me, like what I realize is like, even in that hardness, of like, you're making this real difficult, but like, there are a couple things that I know. The first thing I know is that when I'm in this space, even if you're saying, oh, you gotta wait, you gotta hold on.

That's cute, that's fine, because all I'm doing is like deepening my intentions for the work. So, like, while you might think you're holding me back, you're not right. I am still diving into my practices as deeply as I can because now, I'm doing it with the purpose, which is when it is time for me to show up, no one can deny that I am doing the work.

This is not just me putting on the face smiling, crossing my legs, closing my eyes. This is me struggling with myself, with what's happening within me, what's happening as it relates to the world. And so, when my offerings come, they cannot be duplicated. You can try to hold a course that is guided meditation and emotional intelligence, and that's gonna be real cute. But the truth of the matter is, when it comes to the work that I'm doing, I am doing this for myself. And so, what I know I'm doing is creating opportunities for those who look like me or who are experiencing similar things to me, or even not experiencing similar things to me to get the healing right.

Dalia: That’s a powerful way to … it's not even a reframe, it's just accepting the full reality of the situation is that it is making you stronger. It is making you a more powerful healer and you can't duplicate it. That is powerful because I know almost everybody who's tried to do anything or even ever gone to work has had that experience of someone who just isn't you, try to rip off your idea and you're just like, that's what you came up with. And even if you see people celebrate it because the information came in the package, they wanted, - the person had straighter hair, or they had loosely curled hair, they had lighter skin or whatever. And people were like, oh, it's so great coming from you. But you knew that compared to what you generated; it was a really bad copy. That environment may not get you and appreciate you, but the more you lean into just being yourself and who you are meant to be, the more you realize that there is no such thing as competition because there's only one you.

And people who want to work with you or who want to be close to you, they know there's no substitute. That’s why you can say with confidence, oh, that's real cute, but you're not gonna nail it, you can't copy me. Cause there's only one.

Joshua: Yeah. So, when I'm doing the work of really understanding my connections to the emotions, I can look, I can literally be in a room, and this has happened before.

I've been in a room, I have said something and five minutes go by, minutes go by and someone says the exact same thing. And like, it's like, oh, oh, perfect, that is the solution. And because I am doing the work of loving on myself and prioritizing myself in my healing. I'm sitting there with grace, like, yeah, it is, it's a great idea.

But like, the idea is great, but what you're missing is like my plan. So, you can like say, oh, let's do this just because you heard me say it, but you don't know my thoughts behind it. You don't know how to get there.

Dalia: I've had that experience. What would you do at work? So, if somebody snatches your idea like that, are you just like, oh yeah, sure, but then you don't give, you don't collaborate anymore, you take ownership of that. Good luck.

Joshua: Yeah. You know, it's an inside laugh, like inner joy. Like damn you was right. You know? Whether anyone wants to open their mouth and say it. Yes. Now I just sit back, and I be entertained.

Like, this is when I watch you scramble. And you realize, oh, I stole this idea, but I don't even know how to bring this to life. And so now I'm watching you do too much. While I'm in the back and I'm like, I mean, skin's moisturized, I’m drinking water.

Dalia: This is my goal; this is my goal.

It sounds a little petty. And I say that with positive connotations because sometimes pettiness just, it gives me a level of joy I just can't explain. But I wanna be petty and not bothered at the same time. Is that a spiritual concept or am I deluding myself?

Joshua: I love that question.

Yeah, that's grace. That’s knowing like that you right and they're wrong and enjoying the fact that now they need to figure it out. We’ve been using pettiness as like this terrible thing. We’re framing it as ego.

Right. And if we're really doing it from a space where we're like, I am prioritizing myself, like I'm taking care of myself. I know that was my thing. I don't have to fight to know that was my thing.  And so, I'm showing up and I'm being petty, but like, as long as I'm putting some grace into it, like, yes, I don’t feel bad about it.

Dalia: Yes! unbothered. I just love that. That made my day. That's the takeaway everybody. You can be petty in a spiritual way. I love that. Yes. Tell us about, for a lot of us who maybe were raised in really Christian traditions, we might not know about traditional African religions. Yeah. And so not everybody's gonna be familiar with ‘trust your ori’.

Can you tell us what Ori is and how do you bring traditional African practices or philosophies into your work.

Joshua: Yeah. Okay. So super interesting. We know traditionally African people, the African traditions are you know, like really against queerness. This is like the thing that I think I've always been up against as it relates to like being African or understanding my heritage and connection to it.

And so, a part of building that I don't know, like building that energy, or building that connection, is realizing like, well, I'm gonna come into this space and I'm gonna bring in whatever I got. And my hope is to shift it. So that people can get this idea that queerness is un-African out of the picture.

Because it's not necessary. And so, for me I practice Ifa. Which is the philosophy\tradition that is based in West Africa. And ori is like in the front of the practice. So, when you, when we think about the practice, we typically hear about like, aha.

It's like, oh Oshun, Elgua, and Chango. These are that are being pushed in front, like these are the most important things about the tradition. And as I've continued to learn and explore and really dive into the practice, what I realize is that the tradition is based on principles, but there are a couple that like really stand out. So, one of the things that stands out is that before we come into this world, we have already decided our destiny. And so, it's like in, in the realm of spirit, like before you show up in flesh, you already know what you're coming here to do.

You already know how to do it. And the work that that is, I'm just needing to recall. I just need to remember what it is I need to do, how I need to do it. All of it is like stored in the top of the head, like in the Ori like this is the space, the inner wisdom.

This is where we are divinely connected to our forces. And so, trust your, ori is trust that space where I do my best to remind you like, yeah, you are going through something, but you've probably gone through it before. It probably looked like something else, and you already know what to do.

And so, this is, this is what the practice is based on. And so, you know, there's a lot of, like, I was expecting for a lot more people to get it and then I was like, oh wait. But like the orisha are so much more like what people are looking for. We as Black people and people of color we love to put someone else in front of us.

Oh, let's look at Beyonce, oh, you know, like let's look at like all of these different people as people to model. And when we are focusing first on ourselves, which is what this work is all about, and we're focusing on this inner knowing, then what we're doing is we are developing ourselves and really doing it so that we're creating this opportunity to show up with good character.

Like that that is like what this is all about. It’s not about going to the ocean. It's not about the river. It's so much about building yourself to be the best person that you can be and doing that work from within, right before you step out and go into the world to do it.

Dalia: I love the idea of having all of that wisdom inside you the whole time.

So, many different faiths encourage you to look outwardly for guidance. And they give lists of rules instead of principles.

Joshua: Yeah.

Dalia: Do you find people are uncomfortable with having to navigate morality or what is the right thing to do on their own?

Joshua: Yeah, definitely. I think what I, so I find two things.

One of the first things I find is that people are willing to try it. Which is like shocking to me. I'm like, wow, like people are willing to do this. Like not realizing, you know, the work that it takes. On the other end of this, people do struggle, with is this right. You know, what will my mom think? Like my aunt saying like, this is like devil worship. There’s a lot that's happening. It's even happening within my own circles. And you know, what I'm finding is that people are fearing things that they don't know.

People are fearing things that they don't understand. And when we allow White people to be the voice of our practices, our purpose, our intentions, our philosophies, our traditions. They will make it look however they see it. And, this is what we see like in the media. Where, you know, Black people doing all of this stuff, you know, to themselves or leaving offerings at the river and the ocean, like what are they doing?

This is demonic. And really, it's not. Really, if we think about it, this work is so centered around connecting to and understanding and showing gratitude to the forces of nature that are with us and within us. We can do all that work within ourselves. I don't need an ancestor alter.

Like they're already here. I am them. They're sitting in me somewhere. It's my responsibility to do the work of revealing that truth to myself and of making space. And so, this is like what all of the work that I'm offering is all about. Let's go in there, let's see what's happening.

Let's make some space. So that, I don't know, you know, just so that spirit has room.

Dalia: I love that concept of not having to do a lot of external things because I know that's one thing that's always intimidating to me. When I look at other religious practices I feel like there is so much I don’t know. There's all these things I would know that if I was raised with this - how do you make an altar? How do you do this? How do you do that? And how do you integrate those traditional practices? If you do still love Christianity, how do you mingle the two? Cause plenty of people have done that. Entire nations have done it, but it feels like, oh, it's so much to learn.

But I love the concept of the wisdom being within you and your work being to reconnect to that and that it doesn't have to be complicated. and it is within your reach. That's definitely a new framing for me and so much with really traditional Western religions, is that there is a process for indoctrination.

So, if you're afraid of doing things wrong, we've all been raised to be afraid of doing things wrong. They have a process, you know up front what classes you're gonna take and what things you have to do before they're gonna welcome you into the new congregation or baptize you or do whatever. There's a whole thing. But with these other religions, they're almost so, and maybe more philosophies than religions.

They're so broad that it's scary. I think a lot of us are like, where are the rules? Is an ancestor gonna get really mad at me because I didn't face this offering toward the east or something like that.

Joshua: Yeah all of those, those ideas, there are principles.

And one of the principles is you need have no fear.

And so, all of those things that have me thinking like, oh I could be doing this wrong. If we understand the principles, which are super simple, then we can realize like, oh yeah, if I am focusing on the fact that I'm prioritizing what I'm not doing right as it relates to my own connection to the divine, that's fear.

I'm afraid to be doing something wrong. I'm afraid that something bad will happen to me. What I'm finding is that the fact that people are afraid to do things for themselves is the part that makes it scary. When it comes to doing the work for ourselves, like we have to find within ourselves, the confidence and the courage to say, you know what?

I know I gotta try this. I'm gonna dive in deep. I'm gonna see what happens.

I can shift, I can adjust, I can make changes if I need to.

And it all starts within. I can read the books, I can do whatever, but if I'm doing something and I feel like this is just not right, then it's probably just not right.

Dalia:I love that, that concept that it's gonna be about building your connection to your intuition. So, tell us who is the ideal person for the current offering? Who needs this grace work?

Joshua: State of Grace is a guided meditation and emotional intelligence course. And the people who need this are people who are ready to take this energy, this new energy of trusting the self into their communities. The idea for this course is that we are showing up for whoever shows up. People are literally signing up from all around the world and we're showing up in this space.

And in this space, I am being vulnerable. I'm building community. I am building a conversation with myself, with those who might not be like me or who might be like me. What I'm really doing is I am creating this opportunity to go within. And so we are in this course, people are invited to go as deep into their past as they want to.

And people are allowed to stay on the surface as long as they want to. Right. But the people who this course has been created for are the people who realize there is room for more of myself and I am unwilling to continue carrying all of these things, or I'm just willing to understand myself a little bit more.

When we take a look at like what's been happening in the world, and I mean the election alone, like I was watching people have at it. People were screaming, crying. So much was happening and it's like, why am I doing that? Why is that my response to my experience?

And so, this course is so much about redeveloping and renegotiating, my emotional responses. Like how am I showing up in the space? And when I'm doing that with intention, when I'm doing that with understanding, and when I'm doing that with grace, nothing can take me away from the power of spirit.

Like this is all me, you know, that stuff can happen, and it will happen whether we want it to or not. But how I'm dealing with it, how it's taking place in my body is another story. And so, this is like the people who are wanting to undo oppressions from within. We are starting inside the earliest thing that's ever happened, we're doing our best to undo that to liberate ourselves from those experiences.

So, I hope that answered your question.

Dalia: Unraveling our internalized depression, that's massive. I don't know anyone else who is focusing their meditation work around unraveling, internalized oppression. Our blocks, I know for me personally, come from internalized depression and I started getting coaching this year from a decolonization business coach, a fem of color, who is also a queer person.

The number of ways in which people of color are in their own way in business related to internalized oppression and related to us being cut off from our own body and our own intuition and from spirit, because we have been told, you need to be able to prove everything, you gotta justify it, you gotta test it, you gotta do everything in this very colonized way. But still, even after all this time and all assimilating that we've done, it doesn't resonate with us. And then we find ourselves procrastinating, working against ourselves, because we don't wanna fully lean into these practices that don't feel right because we haven't done our decolonization work.

But honestly, before this year, I would've been like, what is decolonization work? I didn’t know anyone who was doing that. I certainly didn't see people doing it around specific things like business and relationships and how you deal with people if you're working for other people. So, I feel like as much as this year has been a monster, because no one ever told us how awkward, uncomfortable, and traumatic it is to live through a major civil rights movement.

Nobody mentioned it. It was too painful. They never mentioned it. Even like I know one of my parents was living, well, he is from down south. He was here and he was in high school, early in high school when they integrated. He has never talked about it. My dad is such a communicator, that lets you know it was a s**t show.

It was a freaking nightmare.

This time because of technology we can process together, and we can make shifts in what we offer to serve us in a way that helps us move through all this. It's beautiful to see. So, I could see this workshop being useful for anyone who's trying to see how are my issues with internalized oppression, making my life more difficult than it has to be?

Joshua: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's real. So, let's talk about medicine. Let's practice a little bit, if that's all right with you. And so first I wanna say this yeah, the piece of like, I didn't realize until you just said it, like we are, I'm living through a civil rights movement.

Like I was trying to like not look at it for a second or didn't even realize I was turning my eyes away, but that's true. And so, one of the things that's been medicine is a seat at the table, like Solange's album, that's medicine. I'm listening and I'm like, you, yes, you forecasted the weather correctly, someone should be paying you for doing that in particular.

But that's medicine, I'm listening to that, and I am understanding this is what it can sound like to be in a space of undoing that from within, because that is what the album was all about. It was like, I'm going within, I gotta figure this out for myself.

And this is, this is the aftermath. This is what it looks like and its beautiful medicine. So, if you're not listening to that, have not listened to that. Get your medicine. Okay. But I do want to guide us through like maybe a minute practice. I know we're kind of coming to the end of our time.

Dalia: That would great.

Joshua: Cool. Okay. So, wherever you are, just try to get comfortable.

So, if you've been sitting, like, we've been sitting for a while, so if you need to move your spine, whatever you gotta do, get yourself comfortable and then just notice what your breath feels like.

So, you're just breathing in and out through the nose, noticing what that feels like.

And whenever you're ready, just take a look at everything that you can see in front of you, and then just gently close your eyes,

So, you're just taking a mental picture of what's in your space, where you are, and when you close the eyes. Just continue connecting to your breath.

You're feeling into the breath from the inside, you might notice that on your inhale, the belly's expanding. You're filling up and, on the exhale, the belly is dropping back towards your spine,

Just rest in that space.

Noticing what it feels like to exist, knowing what it feels like to be in this space as you are.

Not needing to change, not needing to shift. Not needing to meet any expectations.

We're gonna move into the body and just notice whatever's happening, however we show up. That means we're not undoing any tension. We're not changing, shifting, adjusting. If those things happen naturally with the exhale, then just allow those things to go.

Start at the top of the head and just allow the, the attention to just move down, all the way down to the feet.

You're passing the face and the arms, the chest in the back, the thighs, the butt, the groin, the legs, the feet,

Just let the attention move throughout the body freely.

Again, just taking this as your opportunity to notice what's happening for you right in this moment.

And so, I want you to notice the body as deeply as you can. And I want you to notice any subtle changes, any shifts in the body, no matter their size when you hear the word sadness, noticing if anything is different, noticing if anything's changed.

I want you to go into this space that is most noticeable.  Whatever space was the loudest. Just go right there and then take the next few moments just to look at what's happening where in the body it’s showing up and what that feels like.

Take this as your opportunity to offer up surrender. So, you might just say, hey, I surrender you. You can go.

And notice if it's still there. Notice, if it's just sitting. If it's like, mm, I'm here. Mm-hmm, it's not enough.

And, continue paying attention to it. Taking in as much information as you can about the feeling.

And so, then I want you to continue being in the space. And this time I want you to tap into your inner wisdom. And so, you're just gonna say to the space, what is it that I can do to liberate you?

And then just gently listen for the answer. It might be a word, it might be a sentence, it might be a full plan.

And when you feel like you've heard or you've gotten the message, be in the space just a little bit longer and take this as your opportunity to show gratitude. Right. This could be. Thank you for letting me know.

And you can bring a hand to the belly, a hand to the heart.

And when you get your hands there, just press them into the space, just like a little weight on these spaces.  

Feeling the connection into the space that is still moving, even in your moment of stillness, feeling into the place and space that is a constant anchor in our existence.

And take a deep inhale through your nose and you can let it all out through your mouth.

And then when you're ready, you can blink the eyes open, coming back into the space as gently as you can, and with grace.

Dalia: That was just beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on today and thank you to everybody who joined us. If you’re watching this on IG, you can already see Josh's handle and you can connect through the bio. I'm sure you have your workshop link in the bio. Yeah, watching this on YouTube, I'm gonna put all of the relevant links in the notes, and they've also been popping up on the screen.

I love featuring healers of color. If you want to see more content like this, you should visit. My YouTube channel, and it's just Dalia Kinsey. Make sure you hit the alarm bell, the little bell so that you get a notification whenever something new is out there. And my podcast is also centered on BIPOC and LGBTQIA+ health and happiness.

This is absolutely my favorite type of content that's focused on real, tangible things that we can use to thrive, not just to get by and in spaces where we're not just tolerated, we're celebrated, we're centered, and we're welcome. So, thank you so much for creating this space with me today.

Joshua: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's beautiful to be in a space where we can have these conversations and to do it with knowing like, these just need to be had. So, thank you for creating this space too.

Dalia: Absolutely. I will absolutely be keeping in touch. I feel like we should do something like this again.

Joshua: Yeah, let's do it.

Larissa is a queer, cis, biracial, Black movement teacher and mom to twins. She teaches intelligent movement strategies that help you feel connected, curious, and joyful in your body, and specializes in core & pelvic floor dysfunction. She is an ardent believer in the idea that connecting to your body is a pathway to joy, and joy is a pathway to justice and liberation.

This episode we discuss

* learning to sense joy and the full range of human emotion in your body

* reestablishing a connection to the pelvic floor

* the benefits of seeing a pelvic physical therapist

* freedom and clarity that comes with middle age

* living at multiple identity intersections and cultivating friendships

Episode Resources

www.larissaparson.com

www.daliakinsey.com

Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

Body Liberation for All Theme

They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them. Live your life just like you like it

It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You were born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

This transcript was generated with the help of AI. Becoming a supporting member helps us improve accessibility and pay equitable wages for things like human transcription.

Dalia: This is so exciting. It's been forever since I've recorded an episode. Originally, I said I was just going to take a couple of months off. Mm-hmm. to just get my life in order, post covid and post finishing the book. And it is month six. And I'm not entirely sure when I'm gonna release this one, but I am excited to be recording again. I know that season two is gonna start the 1st of January and honoring rest and really liberating myself from that need to be productive all the time. I realized that I only wanted to podcast once a month.

It just felt so right in my entire body. Yes. And when I was looking at what you do, when we first met, it was at the Together Thriving conference. Yes, yes. And then you were talking about pelvic floor health. So, I thought your focus was on. Reproductive wellness. Mm-hmm. and that part of the body for people born with a uterus.

Right. And didn't realize that it's so much more than that, that it's embodiment work. When I was looking at your site and it talked about embodying joy, but also embodying justice, that really struck me because I realized I wasn't even sure what. Justice might feel like in the body. I'm just now getting to the point where I could feel in my body that podcasting once a month was a hell yes.

Per my entire body. Yeah. But there's still some things I think I wouldn't even recognize. So why do you lead with that on your site?

Larissa: That's such a good question. You know, so I was and still am really interested in and focused on doing core and pelvic floor rehab work. It's one of the things that. I love nerding out about hardcore, but what I found was, this is like the most circuitous way to get to the answer to your question, by the way.

But what I found was that the more that I worked with people and the more that we kind of went on this pelvic floor journey together, where they started developing more awareness of their bodies' habits and patterns, and the more work I was doing with the folks, the more I got to this like realization that.

At the bottom, if you imagine the work we're doing as a cereal box, or like a box of Cracker Jack or something, there's like this prize in the bottom of the box and that is like this body liberation stuff. Mm-hmm. And I decided I was tired of having it be the secret. Mm. I was tired of it being like the thing that we got to at the end of a series or after working together for a few months.

And I really wanted to lead with it because I feel very strongly. Like, like I say on my website, that the body is a home for joy because we feel joy in our bodies and our bodies are homes for justice because we feel injustice acted on our bodies and we feel it with our bodies, and we feel it in the ways that we make choices about our bodies.

And so, if we can get in more touch with our bodies, if we can really embody our bodies, feel like our bodies are our homes, then our bodies become a site for justice instead of injustice.

Dalia: I love that you lead with it, and everything resonates. I felt like the copy was so beautiful the way you phrased everything.

Thank you. But then I also thought, I am kind of a rare. Not that I'm a special snowflake, even though low key, I do think that I am, I felt like with my own messaging where I struggled the most was trying to give people something they needed that they would recognize. Yeah. So, with the pelvic floor, people recognized they need that.

Cuz when I first heard that, I was like, Yes, I'm gonna be front and center for your presentation so I can figure out how. Stop pee when I laugh. I used to think that was only for people who'd had children, and now I realize it's for like literally everybody. Uhhuh as you get a little older and no one's told you like what to do to strengthen your pelvic floor.

Yeah, but then when you talk about the end goal, which, because I kind of think that way, what I wanna do for people is make them feel comfortable in their bodies and confident that their life is best led by them in every single way. But when you say that I think a lot of people don't know whether or not they need that.

 I know even in the coaching contain, we weren't in this program together, but we are active in the same group. Yeah. So, one of the coaches that I've had, when I went to her, I did not know I needed what she actually offers. Yes. But she's such a master of marketing she presented something that I thought I needed, but what I needed, like you said, was at the bottom of the cereal another prize. It was confidence, it was mindset. But I never would've signed up for anyone who said they did mindset coaching. I would've been like, Oh, for what? Sounds impractical. So, have you had any issues finding your ideal person when you changed your marketing?

Larissa: That's such an interesting question because I'm kind of in this in between space where I've changed the copy on my website and I'm still also teaching a lot of the same stuff and marketing it very in a very similar way. So, I would say I haven't really had a hard time finding folks to work with. And the folks who really wanna do this work who show up in my membership, for example, are really interested in the way that we're doing this together.

When we are working together in that space at least, we have coaching conversations where we talk about all those little things that are going on in our lives that are taking away our sense of joy or adding to our sense of joy. But then we also do movement practices. So, we're really doing this embodiment work together and really experiencing, Okay the, the question that I think a lot of people can't answer all the time is, what does joy feel like in your body? Like what does joy feel like? Everyday? Joy. Not like, not like I just felt the best massage of my life.

Dalia: Well, see, I wondered about that. When you say everyday joy, that's really Yeah. Helpful because I could definitely think about periods of like transcendent period.

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be anything major. It's usually. Any kind of dancing exercise. It might happen if I do it for long enough. But a friend of mine I think saw, maybe it was your post asking like, what does, do I feel like in your body or someone else make, but I'm pretty sure it was you. And they said, oh my goodness, I don't know.

And that was the first time they'd really thought about that. And I thought, Oh no, that’s a little heartbreaking. Yeah. And I feel like they are a joyful person, but they, like so many of us, folks of color, spend a lot of time thinking about survival. Yep. And not thinking about joy. Yes. Yes. So where do you start with that?

If you don't know what joy feels like in your body, and why do we need to know?

Larissa: So, I usually start with something, actually, I think I wanna answer the second question first. I was gonna say, I have this thing we start with, but let's answer the second question first. So, like, why do we need to know what joy feels like in our body?

Because life is hard and because every system of oppression wants to steal our joy and so, I see joy as being revolutionary, not unlike rest. Rest comes along with joy. Like they, they go together. They're very important parts of the whole picture. We need to know what joy feels like because we know what struggle feels like.

Mm. We know what suffering feels like. We know what sadness, anger, frustration. We know what all of those things feel like and to not be able to also access things like joy, pleasure, delight. That is not okay. That's not a full spectrum of feelings for a human. And humans need to feel all the feelings. So, it doesn't mean that you're never angry if you, you're living a joyful, delighted life.

It just means that when you're angry, you know that you have reasons for your anger a lot of the time, and that the feeling will pass. And that we can come back to Joy eventually. And I don't see joy as like this, like peak experience necessarily. I really think of it as the practice of cultivating attention to things that we love that we find pleasurable, that we find delightful.

Dalia: Where would you see the concept of fun in relation to joy? Because I think that people probably all know what fun feels like. Yes. But what is the difference, and is this more like contentment than it is fun? Hmm.

Larissa: I would say fun has a big role to play in getting joy in your life. I think that fun is a type of joy. I really think play and curiosity are a big part of this also. We can't be joyful if we're just kind of like focused all the time and working hard all the time, grinding all the time. Unless you really have fun grinding on your work and I don't know anybody who has fun just deleting things from their inbox all day.

It's satisfying on some level maybe to watch it to diminish, but that's not always the case. So, I think that doing things that feel fun is great. Let's do more of those. Let's have as many of those as we can. Can we notice that the fun stuff is part of our joy? Maybe for some people doing things that, like going dancing or hula hooping or roller skating or things like that, that feel like play maybe that's part of your joy too.

Like I don't, I don't see them as having to be distinct from each other necessarily. It's more like, are you noticing how you're feeling about it? Mm. Or are you just doing it because you're doing it, you know?

Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Paying attention to it. Mm-hmm. So, when it comes to justice now, that's the one where I feel the disconnect.

Yeah. And I like that you clarified. We know it struggle feels like we know what anger feels like, what frustration feels like, what does justice feel like?

Larissa: What does justice feel like? I think it feels like, I was gonna say the opposite of injustice, but that's just a, that's a lazy answer, let's be real. Justice to me feels like a sense that my body.

Has worth and value on its own without needing to be supported by the systems that oppress me. There's a difference between saying, well, my body has value because I've assigned it this value in my capitalistic system.

Or my body has value because I'm pushing back against the patriarchy for sure. Right. But my body has inherent value and worth, and that those systems of oppression that I am liberating myself from the systems of oppression, not necessarily gonna be able to burn it all down as much as I would like to.

But I have found the people in my life, I have the support systems I need so that those systems do not grind me down every single day all day. And justice isn't just my individual thing justice is something that we want for everybody. So, if I can get to that point where I'm like, okay I can feel the water, I can tell I'm swimming in it.

I can tell who is my community, who's with me, and we are also working to make this water of oppression move away from everyone else too. So, is it a feeling that I can say I feel justice in my heart? I don't know, but there is a feeling of righteousness and a felt sense of safety in the body.

That is what I want everybody to be able to feel, and that to me is where justice is flowing.

Dalia: Oh, I love that. I love that concept. What role do you think oppression in terms of the patriarchy has in deteriorating or undermining the health of people born with a uterus?

Larissa: Where do I start?

Dalia: You know, I guess I didn't even, I'm saying that I'm like, I like a white dude to ask you a crazy question, but I really meant, cause I'm like, I'm thinking about reproductive health and all the ways that they block. Yes. But then I'm thinking, beyond all that, let's say you're in a position where you're in a state where you can get an abortion, where you need one, awesome.

You're in a state where if you were born with a uterus, but you are a man, it's not a non-issue. Like assuming that all those things are taken care of, just psychologically. What do you think it does? Because I know for myself, I think it's ridiculous that I knew nothing about what to expect. Mm-hmm. from my pelvic floor as I aged mm-hmm.

Anything that has to do with a fem body, you aren't gonna get information on because nobody cares. And all of the research is generally done on cis men. Yep. And things have changed a little bit, but not really. And then you notice that if it's affecting the health of men, people may be inherently motivated to resolve it.

Yes. If it's affecting the health of people born with a uterus, then if it generates a lot of money, probably for men, they will be motivated to at least look like they're trying to resolve it. Like I think about all of the money that gets thrown at breast cancer research. And it's just this money-making machine and volunteer labor is really taken advantage of in a way that I just can't imagine happening with anything that maybe was cis male health concern. So, like on a deeper level, where have you noticed it kind of creeps into your life?

Larissa: I would say, Okay. Let's assume that you can get all the medical care that you need and want and that you are not gaslit at the doctor for your endometriosis symptoms and that you are able to have a birthing experience where your body is cared for as much as your child. If we take the medical complex out of it a little bit and just go to like, how do we feel? Do we still feel shame and stigma around having a body? Do we have shame and stigma around having a body that menstruates? Do we have shame and stigma around talking about pelvic floor issues so that people understand that you don't have to ever carry a fetus in order to have pelvic floor issues. And should you give birth, the type of birth doesn't necessarily determine whether you're gonna have pelvic floor issues later in life. It's like, okay, technically the statistics say that they're a little bit higher for a vaginal birth, but regardless something like 70 or 80% of people with a uterus will experience pelvic floor issues in their lifetime. That's a lot of people. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that's where the impact is still coming in, where it's dirty. To talk about having a uterus to talk about, having a body to talk about dysfunction in our body.

It's not just the patriarchy there. I think that we're also looking to a certain extent at a little bit of ableism, trickling in as well. Like this idea that your body always functions in one particular way, and there's one particular ideal way for your body to function throughout your life. And why would your body be different at 60 than it is at 20?

Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that's such a good point. And considering how common it is, it is really strange that some things, they're kept so hush hush. Yes. That you literally don't know it's a thing until you experience it. Yeah. But it's amazing the difference that mentioning it might make because for some people they may not feel a sense of shame about it, that like plagues them every day when they put on their poise, whatever.

Right. But they still don't feel like it's something you could bring up in conversation. Yeah, casually, like they would feel it might be unsafe, but if you mention it, then it's been interesting because I work with almost all women. If everybody's laughing and somebody says like, oh my goodness, stop, I'm gonna pee. Yes. Other people are like, Already did it. Nobody cares.

Larissa: Right, right, right. Or like, I, I took my kids to, when I was first starting this work, I took my kids to trampoline park with a friend and she texted me and she was like, make sure that you, you know, wear some pads for this. And I was like, oh, I don't pee my pants when I go down the trampoline, but you know, I can help you with that.

And it comes up. I used to like anytime, you know, in the before times when you could walk into a room full of random people. I used to walk into the room, and I would say, oh, this is what I do. And people would kind of like, at first, they might whisper, depends on what, you know, who's in the room.

If it's a small enough group, they, they're like, oh yeah, I saw a PT. It was the best thing I ever did. You know, there's just a lot of conversation around it. It's just hidden and quiet, and I think that's changing a lot. Or that, or my Instagram feed is just full of lots of pelvic floor nerds like me.,

Dalia: It is revolutionary to find out that there are things that we've accepted as part of the aging process that really it has nothing to do with that. It's about how you're treating your body. Mm-hmm, how you're nurturing it, or whether or not you're getting the information you need about what types of exercises could be helpful. Yeah. You know it that is, it's revolutionary to find out something that you were told there's nothing to do about this, and to find out that that isn't always true. That it frequently is not true. I know when I had rounds during my internship in an assisted living facility and in a long-term care facility. We came across a lot of elderly people with uterus as that had such severe bladder infections that it looked like dementia. Mm-hmm. It caused such confusion, but because it's so common, that's one of the first things they'll check for in a long-term care facility. Yeah. And because sometimes the infection, you know, it's sort of affect the kidneys. Yep. But people just out in the world when it happens, it can go so far before anybody recognizes it.

No one thinks about. If you think people aren't thinking about a middle-aged person's vagina, you can forget about it once you are an elderly person. Yes. Like no one's gonna ask you anything, even if that's crucial information. So, what should we be doing now if we're concerned about feeling disconnected from that part of our bodies?

Mm-hmm and feeling like it's changing in ways that we were not expecting.

Larissa: I think the first thing I would say is any sort of movement or embodiment practice, even just mindfully walking more slowly to the kitchen will start connecting you with your body. And like, you don't have to take my class, you can take whatever it feels good to your body and just start connecting to. Does my body feel like right now? Like those little, tiny things. If you're feeling pain or discomfort, oh, what does that feel like? What else is going on in my life when I'm having this? Pain? And discomfort too, can be part of the picture.

Noticing patterns, noticing. Whatever is going on in your body. Noticing whether there's for folks who have cycles, is there a cyclical pattern to it? So, I know that a lot of folks who have pelvic organ prolapse tend to feel their symptoms get worse at certain times, and then they get better depending on where they are in their cycle.

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So that would be my first thing is just start paying attention to. Thing you're in, like what does it feel like to be in my body when it's feeling pretty? Okay. If you're starting to feel symptoms of some kind. I really recommend everybody gets to go see a pelvic PT at least once in their life because they will assess what's going on.

Some PTs will do internal assessments as well as external assessments. They'll do hands on assessments of what's going on with the muscles in your pelvic floor, and a really good PT will actually look at how your whole body is moving. They'll assess you in different positions, won't just have you lie down on a table.

So that's what I recommend for most folks when they're starting to have maybe like some symptoms that they're really noticing, and pelvic floor symptoms can be all over the place. You could have low back pain; you could have something weird in your hips. A pelvic PT can help with that. You could have pain during sex. You could have constipation. You could have like all kinds. And then there's the leaking, right? We talk about the leaking, a feeling of heaviness in the pelvic floor, like something's falling out of your vagina, like that kind of feeling. In folks who have penises, the symptoms are also often constipation or difficulty urinating or like dribbling and things like that, or difficulty with getting an erection. Those kinds of things can be pelvic floor problems. They can be indicative of lots of other things as well, but those can be pelvic floor problems. I think that a lot of people don't know just how extensive that is, but if you think about your body and you think about where your pelvic floor is, it's at the bottom of your pelvis.

It's a bunch of different muscles lining your pelvis, and everything is stacked up on top of that. If the pelvic floor isn't feeling pretty balanced and functional and reflexive, then of course it's gonna move up and down the whole rest of your body. Tight jaws is one of the really interesting ones is that a lot of folks who have really over hypertonic pelvic floors is what we call it also tend to have some jaw tension. It doesn't mean if you have jaw tension that your pelvic floor is also tight. It just means that sometimes. There's a

Dalia: correlation. That's really interesting considering the distance from your jaw to the pelvic floor.

Yes, it's all connected. Everything is connected. So many times, especially the way medicine works here in the States, everyone deals with one little piece of the body, so it gives you the impression that it is separate because there's a person you go to for your ear. There's a person you go to for your eyes.

There's a person for every little part, right? How do you even find a pelvic floor PT? Are PTs generally specialists?

Larissa: Yes and no. Every PT I've ever interacted with has been a bit of a specialist, even if they're kind of generalists to begin with. I had to rehab my knees a few years ago and the guy I worked with was a really specialized in getting people back to running and was really good with knees and ankles,

Dalia: So, it's something you end up as you work you get the niche down.

Larissa: Yeah. PTs have to go through specialized training, and I'm not a PT myself. really talk to a lot of them. They have to go through specialized training after PT school. I also find that Pelvic Health OTs are a really fantastic resource.

They also do, they can take the, like they can go take the same training after school and OT will have more of an activities of daily life focus.

Dalia: So, Okay. That's an occupational therapist.

Larissa: Yeah, sorry. Occupational therapist. Physical therapist, occupational therapist. They're both great. You can look them up online.

You can Google Pelvic Health, PT or pelvic health, OT that will usually find you people in your area. And if anybody needs to know who to go see in the Raleigh Durham area, I got like six people for you.

Dalia: Now, this type of exercising, is that also part of what you help people with inside your slow burn community?

Larissa: Within that community, we do, in addition to kind of talking about pushing away the systems of oppression, we also do movement classes. And in those classes I tend to focus less on the core and more on the periphery. So, like I was saying, jaw attention and pelvic floor attention often go hand in hand.

And I don't just sit around talking about hands and feet, but it's not quite that peripheral. But we'll do a little bit of core work. But mostly we're working on whole body exercises that support core and pelvic floor health. Or whole-body exercises that help your body just get grounded and relaxed.

Or sometimes we lie on the floor and just release our bodies over things. There are so many different components to feeling comfortable moving in your body that you can go strength training, you can do some core work, you can do some relaxation, and it's all good. Mm.

Dalia: I love that. Something you mentioned on your site that jumped out at me is that you said in your forties you felt comfortable to carve out your own space and I just turned 40 on December 3rd, I keep on being dazzled by the freedom that I feel like I'm experiencing. And it hasn't even been a month, but, and I don't know if it's just in my head because I heard for so many years as a child that the older you get, you know, you just open up and you feel free to do what you want to do to say what you need to say. And I heard that it starts in your forties and look out for your fifties. It's gonna be amazing. So maybe I just internalized that and believed it so much that I've around here setting boundaries left and right. Even walked out of a meeting yesterday.

Not angry. I was just tired of being in there. Mm-hmm. and nobody said anything, and I swear. Before I turned 40, somebody would've been like, where do you think you're going? But it's the confidence with which I got up and I was just like, I'm done. Bye. No questions. They just, I'm just in shock. So, what did it feel like for you?

What shifted? What made you realize it was time to carve out your own space? And when you say you were looking for a place where you fit in that stage of your life, what did that look like?

Larissa: So, I think there are a lot of a lot of things to talk about with that. I started teaching movement up.

About just right before I turned 40, cause I'm turning 45 next month. Yeah. And, and I'm right in the middle of the forties now. The not caring what people think just keeps going.

Dalia: Extremely exciting.

Larissa: I mean, I do care, right? I care a lot about what people think. I care that people get treated with respect and dignity and are heard and seen and listened to.

Of course, but also, I just don't have time for any of that BS, the rest of it.

Dalia: So, you're not as invested or invested in other people's approval anymore.

Larissa: I mean, I probably still am working on that. That's like, I don't wanna hear that. I want to hear that at 45 it's completely gone.

Working on throwing it out the window. I'm way less invested in other people's approval. I'm way more in touch with a sense of, again, what feels right for me. That's a very embodied sense of rightness. It's not kind of this up in my head. I've gone through all the options and this and that, and this and that, and this and that.

It's like my body says yes, my body says no, and then I'm done. And I would say, you know, for me, I've spent my entire life at many, many intersections, so many intersections when we talk about identity, and I'm not gonna like lay them all out cuz just to draw Ven diagram of all the intersections I put me in the middle.

Dalia: That's what, that's my favorite type of person to work with. And because I feel like as a first gen kid, a pansexual person, a black person, A person with one non-American parent, which I guess I cover with first gen. It just feels like a lot when you're surrounded by people who are part of the racial majority in the country, or who are straight or who are cis.

Mm-hmm. It just feels like, Could I get any weird. As a kid, that's what it feels like.

Larissa: I'm cis and I can own that. And I feel really settled in that part of my identity. Everything else is just up for grabs. but like, yeah, I think it's really hard to find a place and, but what I've found is my places with other people like me, like other folks who have lots of intersections, and that is really where

I find it to be a comfortable place because we all get it that there's a fluidity.

Dalia: Yeah. I feel that when I find I'm with people like that because it seems like people rarely talk to us. I don't know what you would say, to let those people know, Hey, I'm over here. Aside from just slowly word of mouth, you know, getting to know people one on one.

Yeah. Because when people never talk to you in content, you don't even look for stuff that's for you. It wouldn't even occur to you because before you look, you know it's not there.

Larissa: Hmm. I don't have a good answer for that, but I'm like, now I need to make some more content about being in the middle of all the intersections.

Dalia: Yes. Yes. Well, I wanna see that. I feel like it's going to be coming, because I know through the second wave of the civil rights movement, I heard more about the biracial experience than ever before. Yeah. And it feels. Anything up until then that I was hearing about the biracial experience was being told by people who are not biracial.

Mm-hmm. So, like a lot of tropes in movies from the fifties and they just make it look like, oh, it's so tragic to be multiracial. Yes. And you know, from that lens of like being white, so great, it's so sad to be fair skinned, but not white. Like, okay, fine, from your white supremacist perspective, I'm sure it is very tragic, but you know, have you ever spoken to anybody biracial to see what was really going on?

But to hear about the stressors of living through a civil rights movement when you have people who encourage you to erase or gloss over that part of yourself was really interesting. So, I feel like it's coming. Yeah. It may be the Gen Z people who start making more content available for people that are living at multiple intersections.

Larissa: Could be. I mean, I definitely, that what you just said about listening to more stories of people who have to, like gloss over half of their parentage. I'm like, That's me. Oh, yeah, I know that story. Or, you know, Yeah, there's just, and, and there's so many contexts where I'm like, oh, I can, I can go into this room or that room, and if I go into the white room, people are like, Oh, you're the friendly black lady.

You know,

Dalia: like this feeling like there is no room for you. Yeah,

Larissa: there's no, there is no room for me. And that's why I feel like making my own room is the easiest way to get there and to feel and to find people who understand and resonate with that experience. And it does take time. It takes a really long time.

I think. I think it's not something that's super easy, like might be easier to find joy in my body from hula hooping than to find like five other biracial people to hang out with.

Dalia: maybe in, in the part of the world that you're living in, maybe.

Larissa: Maybe North Carolina's weird. Well

Dalia: see. And I don't know, there's so many people who, it’s so interesting, I've been finding this as I've been spending more time making an effort to seek out the company and community of other folks of color.

Like you mentioned, like liberation happens in community and yes, being separated from. People who are likeminded, who have similar backgrounds is part of being treated like an other than person and being taught to reject yourself and therefore you have trouble connecting with other people with the same marginalized identities as you.

And it goes on and on. But what I kept finding was, And I already knew this on a level, but when I was focusing on building community, it really jumped out at me that just because somebody shares the identities doesn't mean they've gotten to a point to where they can be a safer space for you. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Yeah. So that's even more people to filter through. Yes, yes. Are you could find five and like three of them could be really weird, like still working through a lot of internalized racism.

Larissa: Absolutely. Or so internalized healthism and fatphobia. And wow, I do not wanna sit around and listen to you talk about your diet.

That is not my thing. So, yeah, I think finding the right people is hard, and we know when we're with the right people because they feel right. because we're in tune with how our bodies respond, because we're in tune with like, oh, this conversation could go on all night. That feeling of really deep connection and the fact that they're respecting your boundaries, they're listening to you, they're validating you.

They're not just kind of half listening and thinking about the next thing they're gonna say, like all of those things. When we find those people, it's so, so good.

Dalia: Mm. What has the trick been to finding those people?

Larissa: Being a raging extrovert.

Dalia: I wanna give the introverts some hope too, if they can muster up the energy. I myself am introverted.

Larissa: Yeah. I'm like half again, let's take those intersections. I'm like half every time I take the test. I'm extroverted by nature, but especially as a parent, I have deep needs for solitude. I really understand that. And I really don't like parties where I don't know anyone.

So, like I really get that. I think finding the people you connect most with. For me has been, it's come about through being part of communities, smaller groups. Yeah, with common interest, whether that's an entrepreneurial group or a yoga class, or my Aikido Dojo or wherever, like the places that you go, whether they're online or in person, where you get time to connect with people in an authentic way with a shared something.

I don't know what, that's something that's interest. We can call it an interest. And then for me it's really been a process of deliberately cultivating friendships with people where I feel like we, we connect and where I feel like it's meaningful and that we have a shared, shared enough value system where we're not gonna be constantly disagreeing about everything.

But where maybe sometimes there's a little push and pull where I might say something and they don't agree with me, or they're like, Well, what about from this perspective? That's, that's been it. And it's really hard as an adult to make friends. Like it's, it's hard. We're not just thrown together in a building with, with lots of people all day long.

Dalia: Yeah. I think it could be more challenging depending on how much free time you have, how much energy you have left. Cause like you said, cultivating I think is the key. And I find that people who have a lot of responsibilities Yep. Who are caretakers, whether that's for a parent or for their own children.

Yep. They don't have the energy sometimes to cultivate friend. Yeah, and that's where even when they find a connection maybe it kind of withers on the vine because they don't get to tend to it.

Larissa: I do feel like that's often true. I also really. Focus on like a very small number of people to cultivate those connections with.

Like, and we just have walking dates or phone dates or group chat where it's, the group chat is great for those of us who are in caregiving positions where we can't maybe get away to go do something cuz I can text my group chat at 10 30 at night or one in the morning. And I know that nobody's got their notifications dinging.

So, it's okay. And then I can get that support and I can get that connection that I need. And that's really, really helpful. And it's hard and it takes a lot of time. I don't think that that we recognize sometimes how long it takes and how much intention it takes to be friends with people. Even for my kids, I see it happen where they have to intentionally spend time together regularly so that there's an ease in the relationship where they don't have to constantly negotiate boundaries all the time.

Like, yes, we all negotiate boundaries all the time, but if I take my, my friend Elizabeth, and we go for a coffee and I'm gonna be late, she can order me a coffee and I don't necessarily have to tell her what to get me because we've cultivated that relationship.

Dalia: Yeah, I think it's something you definitely don't notice. When you're younger, because the people that you're friends with are people that you're around all the time. Yeah. So not having that time is a non-issue. And you also think friendships last forever because they do last for years when you're a kid, if you're staying in the same town, same school, same church or something, you're around each other all the time.

But you really do start to notice as people move away in your early twenties. Oh, we weren't friends because we were in the same physical location. Right. You're not the types of friends that survive distance. Yeah. And then you learn like how to find people that are willing to invest as much time or to invest as much time in the relationship as you need. And I think that's something that also your body will let you know when something is not working for you anymore.

Larissa: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I will say that we often just ignore those cues from our body for a really long time, especially in a time when we can stay connected.

People that we grew apart from 25 years ago on Facebook, and they're like, liking your posts and you're like, Oh, how nice. We don't actually have to maintain those connections that don't really work for us anymore. And we can bolster up those connections that do work for us. I, I just, I think that's actually one of the things the 40s really gives you is, oh, I don't actually have to spend my time on all of these people. I can spend my time on the people I want to spend my time with, and I can choose, like to go back to kind of justice and liberation stuff. I can choose how I wanna spend my energy in the world. Do I have the resources today to engage with this person from my high school who whatever they've done, whatever the thing is that they said. And you know, y'all know there's something they said, do you have the resources to really engage with that? Or will you just get angry and shut down? And, and that, I feel like those are the choices that I get to have now that I might not have thought I had before.

Dalia: Yeah. I've gotten a lot more selective about how I wanna use these spoons.

Larissa: Cause spoons are limited, and you don't know tomorrow you're gonna have the same number.

Dalia: Yes, exactly. And just going through the pandemic, being reminded, I'm not someone who shies away from the concept of mortality. But it's helpful, at least it has been helpful for me to have that reminder that I keep thinking, oh, I have like 40 more years. Says who is the thing, right? Yeah. So why can't I prioritize my joy in real time? Remembering that joy is also a compass. It isn't a luxury. Yes. It helps you discern which direction you should be moving in.

Mm-hmm. And also, you physically need a break from all of those other states for your wellness, for you to be able to do all the other things in life that you think are important. Yep. Spending more time in a joy state will help you with everything else you're trying to do.

Larissa: Absolutely. Absolutely. If you're doing community organizing, I hope you're having a dance party at some point because, because we can't stay in that state of a nervous system arousal that like heightened state indefinitely. That's not how our bodies work best. and yeah, I'm certainly gonna be the last person to say, oh, we all owe each other health, but we do owe it to ourselves to put ourselves at the center of our worlds and to really focus on our own joy and doing that gives us more spoons.

Yeah. Maybe not as many as you want. Sometimes I as someone living with chronic illness. I'm like, Oh. No spoons today.

Dalia: Yeah, another intersection. And another one of those things that people don't talk about cuz even people who are chronically ill like to pass as people who are not or maybe need to for safety or an employment type of thing.

So no, no judgment there. But thank you for reducing the stigma by letting that be part of your identities that you share with the world, so people understand while this looks like many different forms and with hidden illnesses, people tend to undermine them and not understand the severity.

So, it's just helpful when people actually share some of their experience for other people to know, you know, the amount of struggling that you're doing is actually normal and there's still plenty of room for joy and purpose and you just have to pace.

Larissa: Exactly. Exactly. You are just a little bit at a time.

Dalia: Yeah. If there was one thing you could tell everyone that they would internalize magically, instantly, and never forget, what would you want everyone to know?

Larissa: Ugh. I feel like I could quote a bunch of people on this and say something like, your body is not a problem to be solved. It is your home.

Dalia: Oh, I really love that. Who said that?

Larissa: So, your body is not a problem to be solved. It's like something that a lot of different people have said. I have it on a tank top from an artist whose name is Rascal Honey, I think.

I don't remember their actual name, but that's the name of their brand. Your body's your Home is something that lots of people said and something I say. So that's actually, yeah, that's mine.

Dalia: Oh, I love that. I love it all together. Yes. It goes together. Yeah. Ugh. Beautiful. So, what is the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Larissa: So, you can follow me on Instagram @larissa_parson. You could check out my website, which is www.larissaparson.com. Those are the best ways to find me.

Dalia: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on.

Larissa: Thank you so much. This was just delightful.

 ​

Yael R Rosenstock Gonzalez (she/her) is a sex educator, sex coach, researcher, author, speaker, curriculum developer, and workshop facilitator. As a queer, polyamorous, white-presenting Nuyorican Jew, Yael has always been interested in understanding the multi-level experiences of individuals. This led her to found Kaleidoscope Vibrations, LLC, a company dedicated to supporting and creating spaces for individuals to explore and find community in their identities. Through her company, she facilitates workshops, develops curriculum, offers Identity Exploration Coaching, and publishes narratives often left out of mainstream publishing.

This episode we explore:

* Honoring boundaries in community spaces and navigating POC spaces as a white presenting person

* Finding belonging and claiming identity as a multi-ethnic person

* Diversity in the Jewish diaspora

* Promoting inclusive representations of human experience in publishing

Episode Resources

www.daliakinsey.com

Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

https://kvibrations.com/

https://www.sexpositiveyou.com/

https://www.instagram.com/yaelthesexgeek/

https://www.tiktok.com/@yaelthesexgeek

Hello and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I'm your host, Dalia Kinsey, holistic registered dietitian, and the author of Decolonizing Wellness.

My work is centered on amplifying the health and happiness of LGBTQI+ and BIPOC people. And that is also what we do here at Body Liberation for All.

I wanna remind you, I am hosting the Decolonizing Wellness Eco-Luxury QTBIPOC retreat in Bali in March. So if you are a person who loves the plan way in advance, like I do. This is when you want to book. This is a great time to give yourself plenty of room to break the trip into payments and to get all of your ducks in a row.

If you aren’t going to be able to join us, but you know someone who this retreat could be life changing for, please make sure you share it.

Substack makes sharing so easy on their platform. So if you visit daliakinsey.substack.com to listen to this episode you'll see it's just a click of a button.

Today's guest, the Yael Rosenstock has so much knowledge in different areas that we cover a lot of territory in this conversation. There was still so much more that we could have dug into that hopefully at a later date we'll get to revisit.

Today we explore a little bit of the lived experience of being a white presenting person who lives shoulder to shoulder with POC within the family, but out in the world is not having the same experience as the family members that have a darker complexion.

Since we already know race is not actually real from a scientific perspective, it's totally a social construct, your skin color itself will to a large extent determine how much lived experience you have as a person of color or as a white person, regardless of what the socialization inside of your house is like because so much of the POC experience, if you're living in a colonized country, if you're living in a country that has its roots in white supremacy, so much of the experience is informed by the anti-Blackness or the anti-POCness that you're going to encounter out in the world.

That does not in any way invalidate the cultural uniqueness of people who are in these very blended families and happen to have pale skin or white skin. So it's interesting to me to hear directly from somebody having this experience. It's an interesting concept to look at on an individual level. What does the fact that race is fictional and totally social have? How does that all play out - when you know you are culturally different from the white folks who do not have POC blood relatives that they live with and are close with but at the same time you know that you're not experiencing the same level of marginalization. What is that like?

I rarely bother to claim my Latinx heritage. Because the anti-blackness that I have encountered in a lot of Spanish-speaking circles here in the US is so intense it doesn't make any logical sense for me to keep trying to be somewhere that I don't feel welcome.

Some of these themes that Yael shares, the feeling of not enoughness when you are more than one thing or when you've only been presented with a narrow definition of what it means to hold a particular identity, is so relatable. I know not just to us, it's so relatable to so many people, because the ways that we define certain identities are so narrow it naturally leaves out a large number of people.

The work that Yael is doing to promote the authentic representation of a wide variety of human experience at her publishing company feels like such a natural extension of this lived experience that she has of knowing how difficult it can be to really claim and embody our identities when we haven't seen anything similar reflected back to us.

I love this. Entire conversation. I know you will too. Let's jump right into it.

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It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

Dalia: I definitely wanted to cover the concept of white passing fragility. But then I want to definitely talk about your other projects and just what you're doing with intersectionality.

Yael: Okay. I do want to warn that there's a very good chance that that will not. Some people will really like that idea of the white passing fragility, but others won't because right. The author of that book has become super famous and super rich off of a book around racism as a white woman. And just giving you a fair warning that this may or may not be taken so well.

Dalia: And then that's so interesting too, because it seems like people should be compensated for good work or things that they do with good intentions.

Dalia: But so often people who are in social justice are on the struggle bus financially, but, and that almost seems to be the expectation. Like you have to be a martyr to break down systems of oppression. But then I also am conflicted because it seems like all the time, white people continue to profit off of pain from people of color and especially Black people in this country. Even when you look at who makes money off of depictions of just Black suffering in general, whether it's another movie about slavery, even if it's a "fun" spin on it, like the Django or something, which I refuse to watch, I just don't understand how we're not seeing how problematic that is, but at least hers originally started out with intentions that seemed more educational.

Dalia: Like I think it's a little more sketch to create a film or a piece of entertainment that centered on Black pain. And then all the money goes to somebody who's not Black. I mean, not at all, but the majority, most of it, right. It seems less sketchy, but it is sketchy nonetheless.

Dalia: And I've been having a lot of feelings around these white savior complexes that are popping out these days. And people not understanding that, hey, maybe people want to be the hero of their own damn story and guess what, maybe they are ready are.

Yael: But you're in the way

Dalia: I know. Right? Or like you just exhausting people showing up to the March and explaining to everybody how, you know, you're being white the right way. I don't know if you've seen that play out in real life where people try constantly schooling other white people on how to be more. Down, I guess is the expression, but it doesn't really translate, but it's so rare that people confront people like that because their competition or the people that you have to compare them to you sometimes are so problematic that by comparison, they seem amazing.

Yael: Yeah, I like this better.

Dalia: So it's like, should I even say anything?

Dalia: So I don't know.

Yael: Considering that most of my spaces are POC and or Latin. I don't have that many white saviors.

Dalia: Smart. Okay. Is that by design or is that coincidental?

Yael: Well, I think at first it's coincidental, right? Just like growing up in a mixed neighborhood with a mixed family.

Yael: It just is what happened. I was in a school with folks of different groups. And so that just continued. And then when I did reach middle school and there were white people who were just white, not Latin, like, I mean, there were a couple in elementary, but not many. And. I just felt really uncomfortable in the space.

Yael: And that was like my assigned group. Cause I wasn't dark enough to be in the Latin group, I think. And also like the Latin group was like ghetto fab. Like I also wore my hair back slicked back. I also had the lip liner, and I had the big hoop earrings as well,

Dalia: But like it wasn't enough.

Yael: It was a, it was a browner Latin group. And so I felt like I shouldn't be part of it. Like I was friends with them, but I shouldn't be part of it because I didn't look the same. And so I just like ended up, even though I was friends with all the other groups, I ended up in the white girl group and I was just like, this is uncomfortable. Like, I don't agree with the things they say.

Yael: I like rebelled a bit and basically got kicked out. And so I think after that, I was just like, I'm going to try and choose. So I don't think I've ever been like, I'm unwilling to be friends with white people because that doesn't seem nice either. But the same reason that folks have affinity groups, right?

Yael: The same reason we hang out with queer people as queer people, the same reason you hang out with Latin people if you're Latin or Black and Black is because you don't want to have to explain certain things. And I'm tired. And so I don't go into all white spaces cause I get nervous about why are they all white?

Yael: Like what's the intention behind this group. Is there an ulterior motive and I, yeah, I just like, I don't want to have to explain things that I end up becoming that white person, the white savior being like, that's not how. I joined a book club once. And they were talking about how, like, it didn't make sense that this person was referencing their dreams.

Yael: Like it's not like a real thing. And I was like, this person is Mexican. And I don't know that much about Mexicans, but in like Caribbean culture dreams can be really important.

Dalia: Oh wait. They were saying like a literal dream, not goals that they were struggling with finding meaning in their dream and they thought that was weird?

Yael: Yeah. He was writing a memoir and he was referencing how he thought his dream was related to the, like what was happening in his life and that he had seen a Wolf or something. Right. He has indigenous culture roots, right as a Mexican-American. But they were just like, no, that's like, he's just making that up from the memoir.

Dalia: But no, because that's extremely common.

Yael: Yeah. Like they couldn't fathom it.

Dalia: That is fascinating. So this is so interesting, can you share your marginalized identities? Because I think the experience of being white presenting is interesting in that you may be exposed to things that I might never hear, because I didn't even know that, I didn't even notice that white people weren't doing that all the time too.

Dalia: Because at work at the moment I'm working in a majority Black office. And people are constantly talking about, you know, oh, I saw this, I wonder if it's a sign and we all have different religious backgrounds too. Somebody even started wearing a hair net because they're afraid somebody might get some of their hair that was shedding and put roots on them. None of us thought that was weird. We were all like, oh, if you feel it's necessary, you do that. You make sure you're not,

Yael: You save yourself. It may or may not be real. It may or may not be. I'm always like, I rather be careful then sorry.

Dalia: Exactly. Absolutely. Nobody said anything when I came into the room to sage it because I thought that we had some bad mojo in there.

Dalia: People said, make sure you get my desk.. Someone came in with holy water. Like we had a very problematic coworker , and we were like, get all the stuff we're clapping in the corners.

Yael: I was friends with one of the custodians where I used to work and she's an older woman. She was like the age of maybe like between mother and grandmother.

Yael: And she brought me a bracelet because she was. You're very joyful and you're pretty. And I just think that someone's going to send you a curse. made me a bracelet to protect me from maldiciones. She just didn't want me to get hurt.

Dalia: And you immediately put it on. You're like, okay, thanks.

Yael: I mean, first off, like I appreciate that you're caring about me and no, I don't think it's weird.

Yael: I've worn, evil eyes before, you know, like, to me, I think that the bigger thing for us is like whether or not we participate or whether or not we're like, yes, this is real when I talk about ghost stories, I share all the ghost stories. I know. Was I there? No. Was it real? I don't know. Cause I wasn't there, but it could be .

Dalia: It's so dismissive to be like, oh, that's so dumb. What? Who says that -only people who are very sheltered and are under the impression that their way is the only way.

Yael: This was a group about social justice. The people are lovely and the ones who hosted, I actually adore. They are fantastic.

Yael: And they weren't the ones who were having this question, but I remember one person in particular, she was just totally dismissive. And I was just like, I don't understand. And I didn't show up for a couple of years, but then I came back and I was like, okay, my role is going to be giving the perspective of not these people in the case that this comes up again, because they keep reading books by people of color. And like, I don't have the same perspective. Like I said, I'm not Mexican. I don't know what they do. But I have a feeling that this is like something that's shared, like it's a native American thing.

Yael: It's a Latin thing. It's a Black thing. Like I just feel, you know, Asian cultures, everyone, actually.

Dalia: I know this is whats so bizarre.

Yael: There are definitely white people who also have that as a practice and Jews, a lot of us who do pass it are white or pass as white, like that's also part of our culture.

Dalia: And that's another thing. So this is one of my big questions. So, you identify as Latin X?

Yael: Yes, I'm Latina

Dalia: You're Latina and you're Jewish. And so does that mean your mother is your Jewish parent.

Yael: That is actually, so...

Dalia: does that matter or is that like out of date or…

Yael: No, that is an excellent question. My parents tried to enroll me in what's called Yeshiva because they didn't like the local public school.

Yael: And so they wanted to put me in a Jewish school and I got rejected because my mother is Catholic and my father is Jewish. And as you like are insinuating, like the religion follows the mother. Now that school accepts muts like me of my form. They no longer discriminate against us, but because my parents couldn't put me in the Jewish school.

Yael: I went to an Episcopalian school.

Dalia: Oh, wow, you were all over the place.

Yael: Yeah. So I got a good Christian education .

Dalia: Oh, and how did your dad manage,, was he a little heartbroken? Like, Ooh, not what I had in mind.

Yael: Well, it was a small school. There wasn't a religion class, but like every morning we started with prayers and every Wednesday we had mass and I just, I didn't know they wanted me to be Jewish. I thought they were saying, here are our religions. You go to Sunday Jewish school. You go to day school with Christians. Figure out your path. And so I very confidently figured out my path. I was like, I am Jewish. And like, I am now very knowledgeable about Christian stuff. But actually they did want me to be Jewish and they had warned the school that that was what they wanted.

Dalia: I was under the impression, and this may not be accurate. Is that like a modern Jewish person may be a little more secular and maybe they know some of the traditions and then maybe they go to synagogue for special events or, but still feel that strong cultural identity.

Dalia: And then don't really feel, I feel like they should be dropped into that white American bucket with everybody else because they're separate as an ethnic group. Whereas other white ethnic groups (in America) gave up their separateness for the most part.

Yael: Interesting. So I haven't done much study into the question, but I have a friend who sent me, who sends me lots of articles, Catherine.

Yael: And she sent me an article about whether or not Jews are white and my coworker, Asia Gray, who does our anti-racism curriculum and what have you. One of the books was, how antisemitism was the original racism. And so that's part of the way that she talks about oppression and like structural oppressions and what have you.

Yael: And she starts that story there and it's like Jews became white if you are white, but there are Black Jews. There are like plenty of Middle Eastern Jews that have more color there are Russian Jews, the Sephardic Jews, the Mizrahi in general. So there are plenty of Jews of color and then they're like me Ashkenazi, which are of German roots, right. German and certain parts of Russia, roots and Poland and all that kind of stuff. And so, yeah. Yes, it is a different, I agree. It's different ethnic group. Like you can trace us back when I did that blood test, I literally come out 49% Ashkenazi. I'm from Germany, even though I can, I can trace my roots on a family tree that's physical to the 15 hundreds. It says I'm Ashkenazi. Wasn't mentioned Germany because the Jewish blood is what it picks up. And so, yes, I agree. Like there's like this ethnic thing there and that's why you can be a secular person of a religion.

Yael: I mean, there are plenty of secular Christians, right. That celebrate Christmas and what have you. But there's like this certain level of like the foods that you eat and the mannerisms that you have and like certain cultural values. I don't identify it as a secular Jew I identify as reform, which is like a less observant Jew.

Dalia: Now, how did you feel your queer identity meshes with Judaism? It's rumored to be an easier mesh. Is that true? Are Christians just being jealous?

Yael: I think it is an easier, easier. I mean, I know plenty of Christians that are queer, but my synagogue, I don't remember how old I was, but she bat mitzvah'd me so young enough for that had a lesbian rabbai.

Yael: And she got married at our synagogue and we were just a regular reform synagogue. Right. We weren't like, ah, where the most social justice progressive synogauge, we were just a reform synagogue. And we did lose some of the older parishioners and I imagine some other age ones, when she joined as the rabbi, but for the most part, everyone was like, love who you love.

Yael: Right? Like that's not an issue. And she was a woman rabbi and my next rabbi was also a woman, right? So like that's super common. It's even starting very slowly in the Orthodox community, which is one of the more observant sects of Judaism to have women rabbis. And so overall I think that shift is, is more common in our space .

Dalia: The idea of there being Jewish people of color is interesting to me, because it seems like in the states, people are under the impression that that's not a thing. Can you tell us about the work that you're doing for representation, and as far as intersectionality goes as a very fair skin person of color.

Yael: Sure so I think the most thing that the thing that directly relates is that I'm part of the diverse bodies project. The idea is a nude photo interview series, intended to increase representation of who gets seen and photograph naked and how you want to be represented.

Yael: So it's not that you had to do a sexy shot or you had to do a serious shot that people get to bring their personalities in through the photographs and show who they are. And that was really important to us and something that we did because it's been taken us forever. But the mini books that we've already released is the Jews flying the rainbow flag mini books.

Yael: And so it's got five different Jews and we had plenty of Jews participate but featured five different Jews ranging from like early twenties to, I think, sixties and out of the five of them. Two of them are Black. One of the Black Jews is also Latin, so she's Afro Dominican. And the point of that was to be like folks exist, you know, and it's so common for you to be like, this is what a Jew looks like when.

Yael: Yeah, sure a lot of us do look like me. There are Black Jews. There are Latin Jews, there are Asian Jews, there are all the types. And so that was really important to us that we highlight that these are two queer Black Jewish women and they get as much space in this little book as anyone else.

Yael: I will say part of my work and that's what we got into the white white passing fragility talk is that I don't identify as a person of color. And who knows, maybe I'll change that at some point. I choose not to identify that way. Cause it feels appropriative. And to be like, just because I have another language or just because my family may have a bunch of people of color and it doesn't mean that I'm existing as a person of color.

Yael: And so when I walked through the street, people see me as white and that's just true. But I do enter, and I was asked this question recently, so why do I enter people of color spaces? And it's cause I'm, I'm feel safer there. I feel more connected there. I don't feel blegh there. And so if people are willing to have me, which they generally are, most people of color spaces are open to white presenting Latin folk. Then I just asked permission and I join.

Dalia: That's interesting and I knew that, and I forgot that when I said that, because I know I'm very used to- anybody who says they're a person of color. I was just like, okay, like, it's the response? Because especially, you know, Black American, no, actually.

Dalia: Latin people even more than Black Americans come in all kinds of shades and colors, and you can't look at somebody and have any clue what even their parents look like. And that a lot of times really informs their experience as far as how they were treated growing up, because it is funny to me how depending on who you're sitting beside, people may perceive your color differently, which just goes to show how arbitrary our understanding of race is..

Dalia: Like number one, we know it's not a real biological thing, but like you said, it's the experience that creates the cultural differences. It's the lived experience that matters. So if, when you are out in the world, people treat you as though you are white well then you are having the white experience.

Dalia: And that is really the key difference. But I have biracial friends who, if they were with their brown parent, they get treated differently and are even perceived differently versus with the other parent, which I just think is fascinating.

Yael: Well, my parents are both white. My dad is white Ashkenazi and my mother is a white presenting Latina.

Yael: My uncle, my abuela they would have been identified as POC, but not my mother. And so when I'm with my mother, it was the same thing. People don't realize she speaks Spanish. She's been spoken about by people who were like checking her out.

Dalia: Well, it's just interesting to me. And I don't know if this happens everywhere or if it's some of our American brainwashing, but like all the time people act as though Spanish is. Secret language. And I'm like, what is wrong with you? It is so, so common. And the people who speak it look so many different ways and you don't have to only speak English, your heart language, or your first language.

Dalia: Like, that's another thing I'm like, you do realize that maybe she can speak Spanish as a second language or not all latin people look the same. I really don't understand the disconnect with that because I've been spoken about in Spanish to my frigging face so many times, and I do speak Spanish. And usually, I mean, unless they're saying something really rude, usually people are trying to guess whether or not the person I'm with is my husband or my what's the male form of mistress.

Dalia: I bet there isn't one, right? Oh,

Yael: Lover

Dalia: Yeah, it just goes to show like, if there isn't a word that connotes, not a legitimate partner, because you're not married to them that's some more sexist shenanigans, but yeah, it's just interesting to me that people make that assumption so often. So what has your experience been like trying to stay connected to your Latin roots when so often people are very narrow about what they consider to be Latin?

Yael: So it's funny because all of our countries have folks, all the Latin countries have folks that look like me. And like most of the countries have folks that look like you, right? It's not, we're not anomalies in these spaces.

Yael: And so I actually, I was convinced I needed to prove myself. Like my mother, I felt counted as real Latina because she was raised in Puerto Rico. Her first language is Spanish. Like that seems to me like check that counts. But me I'm half Ashkenazi. I look, the way that I do my Spanish for awhile was pretty crappy.

Yael: And so I, I felt the need to prove myself. All my friends were Latina and I was like, I must be more Latina. I must speak this fluently. And I must eat the food. And I am an incredible salsa dancer at this point. So, but that was all me. Right. And perhaps white people and perhaps Black people who weren't Latin.

Yael: Right. And that, if I said I was. The response was always like, oh really? Unless I turned around and then they're like, I see it in your butt now I know that you're Latin because of your butt, like, literally the number of times people have been like, I believe you because of your shape. Otherwise I wouldn't have counted you.

Yael: Whereas on the flip side with Latin folks, there's really not much surprise. They don't assume I'm Latina. But if I start speaking Spanish or they see me dancing or whatever, like they ask me, where are you from? They don't ask me, are you at the end of the ask me? Oh, okay. Yeah. Right. Assume that I am. And they're right, because for them, it's not so surprising to see someone who looks like me, but I think, and it's when you think of immigration, you're going to assume that more white Latins are going to migrate because of mean.

Yael: Whereas you have browner and Blacker people migrating because of need. And so if you're hanging out with folks from your same social class, which will end up being also your same racial categorization, because those are very linked to whether or not we all want to admit it in the Americas as well.

Yael: And all the Americas. So like, I think that that's part of it, right? You're used to hanging out with other brown people. And so even though your country has plenty people who look like me, you never associated with associated with them. Either. They were from a different region or they were from a different social class.

Yael: And so they went to different schools and they had different access. And so I think that's more it, but like Latin people never not include me.

Dalia: Oh, that's interesting. So it was really more just internal.

Yael: Yeah. I was like in TV, none of the Latinas looked like me. All of my friends were darker than me.

Yael: And so I was like, I need to be darker. And my abuela ? When I went to go visit her, she was like, no sunscreen. We need to get you more dark.

Dalia: That is so interesting to me because that I've seen more often the opposite experience. So first I think when I turn on Univision, everybody's white and the housekeeper looks like she has some indigenous ancestry.

Dalia: She doesn't get to say anything, except like, let me get that for you.

Yael: They're white almost. They're like what I call exotic white. Like they have, what's considered what I consider the stereotypical, Latin of means look, which is like, they have very heavily European race roots, but they were at some point mixed with other races.

Yael: And so they have like olive tone skin, dark hair, like certain whatever. And I don't have. It's like, I'm actually just white passing.

Dalia: Yeah. Oh yeah. That makes sense. That distinction. Yeah. I can see that for sure. Like a Sophia Vergara type of, yeah.

Dalia: But at the same time I'm sure when she is home, she would be called white, but it's just, when you weave and you come here, then you you've turned into some exotic white.

Yael: Yes. And that like that to me is like an interesting thing too. Like if in your own country you are white and then you come here and you're like, I'm a person of color.

Yael: What changed? And it's true. Our racial dynamics are very different in each country, but it's interesting to me that, like, I mean, you don't necessarily, people don't identify necessarily as white or Black or what have you. That's not part of, most of the country's ways of self. They just don't do that. And then some countries that like became illegal like you don't put that stuff on the birth certificates, like you just don't name race. But in my head, I'm like you can recognize hopefully that people look different in your country and that you're having different experiences based on that. So when you come to this country, why do you claim this identity?

Yael: Or if your family came to this country, why do you claim this identity when you were still white passing?

Dalia: Well, yeah, that is really interesting. And what is funny to me, especially for Dominicans, just because I hear this from them more than anybody else, that your race, it feels like it did change during the flight because your treatment was completely different.

Dalia: And maybe back home, you were part of the dominant group culturally and power structure wise. And this is the first time people are treating you as though you're an other. And so maybe your identity will shift them because race really is a social construct. So you can make a flight and your race changes.

Yael: Yes, totally agree. But also those are Afro Dominican, right? Then being put into a category that is on the lower end of, or possibly the lowest end of our racial categories in the U S. And so they're going from being the norm to going to being the most marginalized population in the country. Whereas if you are a light skinned or white passing Latina you were going from being the highest, probably social class in your country to be not too far down. You might feel like you're all of a sudden, like super oppressed, because you're not used to any form of oppressio n

Dalia: that see, that really says a lot. And it is the author, speaking of white passing fragility, the writer of white fragility says, you know, like 97% feels like a horrible loss or injustice when you're used to a hundred percent.

Yael: Oh, wow. Nice quote.

Dalia: And I say that, and I'm like, she probably said some other numbers, but don't look it up. Trust me. I love the idea of that perspective of asking for permission to go into these other spaces because you feel comfortable, but then also not internalizing the rejection. If somebody says, I really, I don't think it's a fit.

Dalia: How did you get to that point? And how do you suggest other people who are white presenting, but feel more comfortable in browner spaces? How should they reconcile that?

Yael: So I think there's like tying back with like that white savior thing that like, I need to be here.

Yael: Don't get me wrong, communities are important. And again, like a lot of my community is POC and that is important to me. And also I recognize that not every space is for me. If you were going to have a men's group, I don't belong in it. When I was helping facilitate a peer sex education group, I was like, we need a leader for the abstinence and virginity group, because I am neither abstinent nor identify as a virgin, but I am a super sexual human being.

Yael: And so I don't belong in this space. It does not make the space safe. This is a group led by and for folks with a certain experience. And so when you recognize that that's the point, right? Like women's groups, you don't want men. And normally we don't question that we're not like, oh, how exclusionary what's exclusionary is if you don't allow all women.

Yael: All women belong in women's groups, whether they're CIS or trans. But you don't allow men because it's a woman's space. And the point is to create a space that feels safe for that population. So they can be heard, feel seen and not have to explain things that they would have to explain to someone who doesn't understand.

Yael: And so to me, that is what often POC spaces are. And there's so much I can understand because I'm surrounded by POC and because my family has POC and there's so much I can't understand because I will never live it.

Yael: And so if the space would be safer without my presence, then why would I want to put myself in a spot that will cause others harm when then the intension is for them to have a good space.

Yael: Not every space is like that, right? Like if you go to school, if you go somewhere most spaces, unless you're like at historically Black university, right? Like you're going to be surrounded by white folks and like, no, one's questioning that. And so why shouldn't you get to be surrounded by the people you want to be surrounded with for this time period that is yours. It's your time, it's your space. And so I think for me, it's just like thinking about what is your intentions about entering it? Are you trying to contribute in a way that is helpful and wholesome and caring and supportive. Great. Is it wanted? Yes. Enter. Is it not. Go somewhere else. You can still hang out with those same people just not in that particular space that was designated at this time for this purpose.

Dalia: And when you say it that way, not at this time and not this space, because I feel like a lot of people who seek out those spaces, that isn't how most of their day is, you know, it's just a little refuge and it certainly isn't that they don't want to have a fully integrated intersectional life.

Dalia: Like you said, it's a break from having to explain certain things. And what's interesting is when sometimes you try and make things more and more broad. There's just more potential for issues because I have seen more on reality TV than in real life. Yes. White presenting, Latin people using certain racial slurs saying it's okay for them because they're down or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but you're not of the group that gets to use that word and they just kept on defending it. I'm just like, okay, we're just, you're canceled. We're moving on. So there are, there can be issues where people who you would expect to not be problematic come in and are.

Dalia: And so maybe some people have been burned. A few times, and now they're just, they're exhausted and they don't want to put the energy into fielding out who is safe and who is not safe.

Yael: And there's nothing wrong with that. Like it's not necessarily personal, it could be personal if you're one of those people, but even the question, right?

Yael: Like I wanted to advertise a job position and so I seek to advertise them first in places of color and queer spaces. And so I contacted several different groups. Oh. And then, sorry, I remember there was a posting for a DEI position at a Jewish organization. And so I started to contact the admin of different POC, Jewish groups, like a Black Jewish group, or what have you.

Yael: And I said, listen, I filled out their form to enter, but I was like, I don't actually want to enter. I'm wondering if you can share this link. So folks can see the job. I am a white presenting, a Latino Jew. I ended up getting messaged even by the Black group. And they're like, oh, you can join. I was like, Black is not part of my identity.

Yael: Like we, because of the Caribbean, we have those roots as well. But like I don't claim that.

Dalia: It's funny. I do feel like Black people in my experience. That's why I was so I've been surprised when people have told me, they were bullied. Black kids in school who are other POC is it's always surprising to me because the town that I was raised in and the part of the south that I'm from, people still were in that space of, if you we're different enough to maybe not be able to get into a whites only area, or if the clain would have targeted you too, cause clan is not down. They're very antisemitic, they're anti everything. But then you were welcome. Like if you wanted to sit at that table, you were always welcome. Just anybody who is being othered the policy was come on in. If you have nowhere else to go, we'll take you.

Yael: That's lovely. I definitely know that that's not always true. And again, it's okay. I mean, the bullying is not okay. Deciding who's in your space is, but yeah, exactly. So like I was welcomed and obviously everyone's Jewish because it's a Jewish group.

Yael: And so it's, it was specifically a space built for Jews, Black Jews and some Jews of color to have a reprieve from the white Jews. White Jews often mean, well, right? Like we fill up social justice spaces, like hardcores. I've spoken to people about this, that like insofar as percentage of folks who are involved in social justice by group, I imagine that our group is one of the most heavily social justice oriented.

Yael: Cause we're so small and people are like you're everywhere, but it doesn't mean that we're doing it well or that we're doing it right. And so it can be exhausting to have white Jews around because we are those white saviory types.

Yael: And yeah. So I was, I was surprised and I was like, well, okay. Like I will post it myself then afterwards. And she had, she had posted already and she had written my name and giving me credit. And like I said, this person wanted to let us all know about this job.

Dalia: That's very cool. It's nice to find community, but it's also very nice to know that when you're trying to create a safe space around certain parts of our identity, that there are people who understand and support, because I'm sure it's hard for some people to hold that space.

Dalia: And to not feel guilty about saying no sometimes. So it's nice to know that even if not everybody understands, some people totally understand and they're not gonna lose any sleep over it. They're just going to move on to the next Facebook group and they'll be fine. And maybe you'll run into each other in another space.

Dalia: That's centered around an identity that you have in common.

Yael: Yeah. Exactly. And so I think that's just like, it's kinda like building resilience and you might actually be in another POC group together, but not necessarily that one.

Yael: And make everybody safe because I would hate to go into a space where I was told, Hey, women are welcome. Like this happens a lot. Well, not now that everybody's at home groups are really growing and there's like a group for everything. But previously it just felt like, like in the nineties, everything that was gay or LGBTQ was CIS male dominated.

Dalia: Tell us about your company and what made you want to form a publishing company and what your vision is for that company?

Yael: Sure. So my company's name is Kaleidoscope Vibrations, LLC . And for anyone who's an owner, kaleidoscope is it's like this toy that had all these like gems on the bottom and you'd move your hands in opposite directions around this tuby thing. And you'd look inside and it would be create new, pretty color combinations.

Yael: And so the idea is that every vibration or event in your life creates a new beautiful you, and that our identities are always forming and they're always developing. And the reason I created this company was because I was this like Jew that wasn't Jewish enough. I was this Latina that I didn't think that I looked enough or counted enough.

Yael: I was queer, but not queer enough. You know, like there are all these ways and this, I, I didn't feel like I should count. And that's, that's different, right? Like that's different than choosing whether or not you belong in a space as to whether or not you feel like you matter enough to be in a space or if you, you belong.

Yael: And so I created this company to help people find confidence in their identities and find their communities. So maybe. You don't belong to blank community, but you do belong to another one and then you can find the people that you need so you have a supportive, loving environment that understands you.

Yael: And so I do workshops, I do identity coaching, curriculum development like inclusivity in the workspace across different identities and what have you. But we also have a publishing sect, and that's the purpose is to uplift different narratives that aren't necessarily heard. And so the first book was mine, which is An Intro Guide to a Sex Positive You.

Yael: Sex is not necessarily something you think of and you're like, oh, this is not inclusive, but it really is. And so my book, I know I had someone read it, who was like, I've been looking for a book that validated my experiences as a queer person while reading it that wasn't heteronormative, right. That wasn't geared towards straight people.

Yael: And it's not that my book has hetero exclusive. You can be whatever matched you with. I just don't assume what you're going to match. And so I don't add genders into my conversations in the book and that like that in and of itself, apparently at the time was somewhat revolutionary for some folks. And the next book was Luna, Luna Si, Luna.

Yael: Yes. Maybe it's that Luna? Yes. Luna Si. And it is a book about two little sisters who are Latino it's in English and in Spanish. And the younger sister has autism. And she is 40% verbal. And so we often see representations of savants, right? So, and they tend to be white males. And so you have these kids who have really incredible abilities to count numbers or to memorize things, or what have you.

Yael: And they often do have very good verbal capacities. They have awkward social cues because they have trouble reading it, but that's like the extent to how they represent autism. Whereas in this case, like you see how she, how she is able to communicate the form that her language takes. And you do learn about like the kinds of things that she can do.

Yael: You learn about stems. So like ticks that people do to keep themselves calm and well. And that was the intention, right? link that autism comes in all colors, all ethnicities, that there are varying levels of how much people can communicate and what, you know, how much need or help they might require.

Yael: And yeah, and it just, that's, it it's a story about sisters and how they love each other and how they communicate and also one of them has autism. And so that intention of bringing those to the surface and yeah, we're working on a bunch of other different possibilities as well. Another one's about anxiety.

Yael: So another bilingual book, but a little girl's anxiety and what that's looked like for her.

Dalia: That's really helpful. I think that more and more children are experiencing anxiety earlier. So that's definitely needed. And it is interesting how ableism racism, xenophobia, how it all plays together and how you really don't see representation of people living with a diagnosis that aren't white it's. I mean, it's almost always going to be white to the extent that when you meet someone with something as common as down syndrome, who's Asian, you're like, wow. Like, oh, I didn't know. Obviously we can all get whatever we can be born, any kind of way, human diversity, it's just what we choose to feature. That makes it seem like we aren't as diverse as we are.

Yael: But then it's also the like racism that exists within the publishing space. And so even when you do have some books that are more representative in that, like the pictures have kids of all different colors, it doesn't necessarily that the author is a person of color.

Yael: And so with my company, you have to have either the identities that you are discussing or someone in your like close family, someone in your close life, and you have lived this with them, right. That you are experiencing this with them. So like the author of the book autism, t he person with autism, didn't write this.

Yael: She doesn't write. But her sister wrote it. And so she has lived with her sister, her, the younger one's entire life, the one who has autism so entire life. And so that was like the perspective that we were able to take. And so it's very important to me that the people who are writing the stories also have lived experience.

Yael: And it's not just about like, oh yeah, we need to mix A and B and with number 3 so that we can count in this diversity world where like, you're supposed to do this. Now it's about like, this is my story, and I want you to hear it.

Dalia: And the way that people tell their own story is so different from how it's told by an observer.

Dalia: And people can feel that difference. Sometimes it's so subtle, but you definitely, some things just they're very difficult to fake and so right now, a lot of companies. In all sectors, not just publishing people are faking the funk right now, and it's not pretty. So it falls flat. It's all kind of, oh, this just came to me.

Dalia: Did you see that woman who has been saying that? She's...

Yael: who said that she was Black from the Bronx in the Bronx and is a white Jew from Kansas.

Dalia: Yes, she got the hoop earrings, she got the tan and she was like, I'm ready to rock. I do not understand how this has happened more than once in such a widely publicized way in my lifetime.

Yael: So I actually, let's, let's break that down a bit. So first off, she's a, she is a white Jew, right? My friend is also a white Jew. Neither of them actually presents white. Like, if you look at them, that's not the identity you're going to give them because they were darker skin tones. Right. And so it's also interesting how whiteness works that like, because they are Jewish, they are given.

Yael: Right. It just, that is also so interesting. But I remember someone commented, like how did no one realize like Afro Latinas don't come that light? And I was like, hold up a second way lighter than that woman. Right. There are people who identify as Black. That is their identity. Who are way lighter than this faker.

Yael: And so my thing was, you should not fake who you are, but the fact that people believed her makes total sense to me.

Dalia: But it seemed like to me, what was the most damning is how. Some of her clothing choices and accessory choices, maybe they speak to her, they were so sterotypical. It just seemed a little performative.

Yael: She faked three different identities.

Dalia: Oh, I didn't see that part.

Yael: Afro Latina was her latest identity. The one before that was Black American, the one before that was north African. Okay. She moved across the globe.

Yael: No one tracked this?! Like at one point she was north African and now she's Black and now she's Afro Latina from the Bronx specifically.

Dalia: That's interesting too, that extra, that, that was so important for her to feature that what trips me out about it. And I think what really troubles a lot of people about it is to know that.

Dalia: Race is not real to the extent that whatever you say could literally change your experience. You just have to keep saying it and buy some hoops and you can be another person. Like, it just, she went overboard with the, just so stereotypical, but you're right. It easily could have been true going off of skin color alone.

Dalia: And some people do still dress that way, even though it's not the nineties anymore.

Yael: But I love my hoops in the nineties.

Dalia: I did too, you know, but they're like more modern with the embellishment. It has that like handcrafted feel. I don't know what happened with the hoops. It went out for me with letting my eyebrows finally try and grow back in, but I did use to be so, so into that. But at one point I also had a Jheri curl.

Dalia: So I really shouldn't talk about anybody else's since its style, I've made many mistakes over the years. I really appreciate you sharing your perspective and coming on. Where can people find you? Sure.

Yael: So my main thing is that I'm @yaelthesexgeek I'm a sexologist, sex coach, a sex educator.

Yael: @yaelthesexgeek on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. My website is sexpositiveyou.com, so pretty easy. And then my company is kvibrations.com. And so you can find most of my things through there.

Dalia: Awesome. You are doing so many different things. We didn't even touch on the sex positivity, maybe that's for another day.

Dalia: Are you thinking of revisiting that book now that you know, we're kind of all in a different place as a country and as queer people? Or are there things you'd like to add? Are you going to revise that addition or write something new?

Yael: Yeah. So the book is only two years old, but things change and shift so much, right? Like now there is so much more language outside of queer spaces around pronouns, but I think even in 2018, like the idea of talking about pronouns outside of queer spaces was still foreign for most, so. Yes, there are definitely, I've looked back and I'm like, oh, overall, I'm like, this is a good book.

Yael: Just so you know, like people love my book and I go back, I'm like, oh, this was, this was better than you thought it was. Yes, there are, of course things I want to change, but I I'm looking into doing a teen workbook version of it. Because I wrote it for my 14 year old self, but I don't think parents of 14 year olds would be thrilled to have their kids read this book..

Yael: And I think it's more of like a 16 and up kind of book. And I want to be able to reach people when they're younger because sexual trauma and boundary making and self pleasure and all of that is important before you are 18 or 16. And I also started, but I'm not going to have time right now, the nerds guide.

Yael: So this is the intro guide and the nerds guide goes into the socio historical and psychological backgrounds. And so when you talk about things, Gender. I want to be able to talk about that are six sexes and genders are present in the Talmud in ancient Jewish text, rich and written 1500 years ago. I want to talk about the hijra in India, and that they have like that as a third gender that's established that how different native American communities have two spirit or don't have two spirit identities.

Yael: And like, what does that mean and how do they conceptualize it? And just like, recognizing that there's so much more beyond what we talk about.

Dalia: Yeah, that sounds really fascinating.

Yael: Yeah. But that's going to take awhile. It's going to take research and I'm doing a PhD right now.

Dalia: The list just keeps going.

Yael: And that's on the back burner, that's like maybe if someone gives me a book deal, I'll work on that.

Dalia: I love it. Oh, excellent. Thank you so much for coming on.

Yael: Thank you for having me.

Yael: I always, I really enjoy talking with you and Dalia.

Dalia: Same here. Same here. You'll have to come back when you finish your nerd book or I'm sure, actually you're doing many things. I'm sure it'll be before then. Sounds good.

Nhakia Outland (she/her/hers) is the founder of Prevention Meets Fashion Inc. She is a Black, queer, single mother of three. She is a social worker, sex educator, sex therapist in training and professor at Temple University with an extensive background in advocacy, consulting and community organizing who is passionate about finding creative ways to engage Black, LGBTIA+ communities. Nhakia’s work focuses on addressing stigma and inequalities in sexual health and reproductive health (SRH) through fashion, advocacy, community and education (F.A.C.E).This episode we explore

* The impact affirming clothing can have on mental health

* Finding and celebrating your aesthetic

* The connection between sexual health and fashion

Episode Resources

https://www.preventionmeetsfashion.org/

https://secure.givelively.org/donate/prevention-meets-fashion

https://www.thecrownact.com/

www.daliakinsey.com

Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

Bali Retreat March 19-25 2023

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I'm your host, Dalia Kinsey holistic registered dietitian and author of Decolonizing Wellness.

This show and my work overall is dedicated to amplifying the health and happiness of BIPOC and LGBTQIA+ people.

Today we're joined by Nhakia Outland. The founder of Prevention Meets Fashion. She's a black queer, single mother of three. She's a social worker, sex educator, sex therapist in training, and a professor at Temple University with an extensive background in advocacy consulting and community organizing. She's passionate about finding creative ways to engage Black, LGBTQ+ communities.

Nhakia's work focuses on addressing stigma and inequalities in sexual health and reproductive health through fashion advocacy, community, and education.

Nhakia and I had this conversation quite a while ago, so I'm excited to be able to bring it to you today. At the time of the episode was recorded the website for Prevention Meets Fashion wasn’t up but now it is. So you can see that in the show notes and check out the events calendar. I love that the condom streetwear fashion show is an annual event.

Nhakia has a lot of fabulous things going on through this nonprofit. And it was really interesting to hear about her creative process and what brought her to form the nonprofit.

Before we jump into that conversation. I want to remind you that I will be hosting my first in-person retreat in Bali next March, that's March 2023. If you're hearing this and it's pre March, 2023, there may still be space. So be sure check out daliakinsey.com/retreat to see the details.

It’s going to be an amazing event. As always it will be centered on LGBTQIA+ BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, and People of Color). However, if you are not an LGBTQIA+ BIPOC person, that doesn't mean that you can't come to the retreat.

There will be a couple of healing circle events. That'll be sacred spaces for QTBIPOC folks. So those will not be events where everybody can come in and take up space. However, there will be plenty of other events that are for everyone. So if you were interested in taking a more liberatory approach to your wellness and you've done a lot of work on your own and you feel like this could be a catalyst for your growth then definitely check it out.

It isn't going to be a beginner oriented event as far as healing work goes. If you've never done therapy, if you've never, read a self-help book, if you've never been in any sort of coaching situation and you're kind of new to the concept of systemic oppression having an impact on your wellness, then it's probably not the place for you to start.

The retreat really is designed for people who already have an awareness of these things and are wanting to dig deeper and really wanting to be in a space where they can totally unwind and focus on the physical experience of comfort and freedom in their body. So that it's something we'll be able to re-create with ease when we get back home.

 The facilities are gorgeous. We'll have a chef cooking for us three meals a day. There are lots of excursions planned. We’ll have one-on-one time with a Balinese healer. There will be massages. It's going to be really luxurious, but then at the same time, a little crunchy, which is totally my vibe. We’ll have a touch of the outdoors. We'll be in an eco-friendly setting, but then at the same time, we're going to have access to all of our creature comforts.

It’s going to be great. If you can join us, you absolutely should. Go to daliakinsey.com/retreat to reserve your spot.

Alright, let's get on into this conversation.

Body Liberation for All Theme

Yeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.

It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

My name is Nhakia Outland. I am the founder and president of Prevention Meets Fashion Incorporated. We are a 501C3 nonprofit based in Philadelphia, but we will go anywhere. And our mission is to increase sexual health and knowledge in communities of color Black, LGBTQIA and nonbinary communities through fashion advocacy, community education, which stands for FACE. It is a model that I created to be able to look at the intersections of sexual health, reproductive health, racial injustice, disability rights all of these other what I call social determines of health as well into one model, instead of just naming them all the time.

We look at the intersections of how many of those can be placed in fashion. How any of those could be placed in advocacy and in community and education, which to our advantage came out as face, which is a ballroom category. Which we're very excited about because my favorite category in ballroom is face.

I just love when the community comes out and shines that way like, it seems like nothing else matters, but that person's face. And to see that in community that's really been, you know, hurt so many times again and again especially Black LGBTQ folks that just lights my world up when I go to ballroom competitions.

But yes, I'm so excited to finally be a nonprofit. What a lot of people don't know is that we've actually been around for four years. Once I really started getting into the nitty gritty of Prevention Meets Fashion, I realized that it would, it would be so much better in a nonprofit structure to be able to open ourselves to getting grants, to getting more support to writing more curriculum and programming. So a lot of folks that follow us on Instagram and they just, you know, sometimes think that we just post, but that's the labor of love of hours of research putting snippets together to have those words in the little, in the little caption.

I actually take the time my interns take the time my volunteers take the time to research things, to make sure that we're getting our perspective right.

To make sure that we're getting voices heard. On our Instagram, we take it very seriously, I once said when I started this, that to me, that Instagram is just not a place for us to post pretty pictures it really is more than that for us.

I remember when I first started, I talked about how I used fashion come out to my family over a certain, a number of years as queer.

And I showed a picture of when I got my hair shaved on one side and how freeing that was to me for many aspects for one, I had just lost my partner.

So you weren't a kid, you were an adult living outside of the home.

Yes. And so I had just lost my partner and, you know so when I had shaved the side of my head, it was a freeing moment. Not only for me verbalizing my queer identity, but also that that I was shedding something that reminded me of my partner, cause they always liked my hair.

So I was talking about that and someone took my whole face, whole caption, put it on there, their Instagram and people were tagging me like this is your face.

And I'm like, do you know that I'm a real person? And they literally were using it. The message was correct. I think before that, but I'm a real person like you use my whole face and my whole story.

Was this person, a member of the community?

Yes! This person was a member of the community and a fellow, a sex educator. And this was not the first time that they did this. They actually. Took other posts and I had to call him out on it, you know, and I don't what to do that, but at least give me my credit, especially when it's my face. So I stopped a little bit from actually using my images. And the purpose of me using my images, was one, for people to know that I'm a real person, but for, two to show representation to y'all queer Black folks out there that that don't get seen as much.

And to let them know that, you know, we're here, we're in every profession. You know, come and visit us, you know, and as I was like, really taken back by this, so I stopped showing my image for a while, but then the pandemic happened and people were, were like, you know, I don't think people know that you're Black owned or queer owned at all because you don't have no pictures of yourself anymore.

 So I began posting pictures of myself, again, posting pictures of my interns, posting pictures of my community stuff that I was doing. I do admit that I am a little bit shy and I don't give myself enough credit with Prevention Meets Fashion

I'm a social worker by trade and I decided to take everything, all of my experience and I absolutely adore the meaning behind fashion. And how has been used in black communities. How is being used in queer communities? Oftentimes when our voices were silenced, our clothes were loud.

Interesting that you made the point though, that people don't understand how damaging it is to a small creator, small business to steal ideas, but that is the story of the Black creative's life. Like that's the story of small queer businesses. Cause you think about all the ways in which queer folks, especially queer folks of color lead the way with culture and with fashion.

And how often is that stolen? And the original designer creator doesn't ever see the profits that come from their original baby, their original idea.

And I, I struggled too, along the lines, just to piggyback off of that. I struggle with the Black designers who have made it.

And a lot of them, you listen to a lot of them speak and how they built this from the ground up. And then they make it sort of speak and then they give credit to the Italian designer. So the white designer, oh, about what's underneath their fish and house. Then my name wouldn't be out here. The same thing with music.

Like why do we feel like we have to partner with someone that don't look like us to make us big. Right. And I struggle with it.

Can you speak to that? Because I've seen that issue even in myself, even as I've decided to center my show, to center my work around my queer identity and my POC identity, I still find myself being drawn when people like dangle something in front of me, that's not serving the community that I believe I'm meant to serve and I'm called to serve. I still feel like, oh, it's a shiny object because I, like so many people, was raised to think proximity to whiteness is proximity to success. And even though, especially the way things are shifting now, we definitely don't need them.

People need us, but because we're the ones who've been socialized to believe the opposite, we keep falling for it. So what do you do when you see that in yourself? Is that something that can only be addressed on a systemic level? Where you never affected by that?

I think I would be lying if I say I wasn't affected by that. Even if you look at my identity as a social worker, right. I was trained as a social worker, a lot of the curriculum is based on white supremacist thoughts and ideas and racism. And it wasn't until last year that I found out that there is a whole curriculum around African centered social work. I've been a social worker for over 15 years and I never, ever outside of the Black NASW (The National Association of Black Social Workers), I never knew it was a social work curriculum around African centered and how to work with Black and African community.

And so I started taking those courses and webinars during the pandemic to help myself unlearn the white supremacist culture and ideologies, that I was perpetuating, you know. The whole fact that white supremacy culture values, individualism, right? And then you make it and worry about everything else later. For Black community and Black queer communities, what’s innate to us is to have a village behind us, but yet I was pushing back on this because it's like, I was conditioned and raised to you're an individual. We get on the young rappers, these young kids when they make it and they bring their village with them. Yes. It's some folks that you don't necessarily need to bring with you and that's a different story, but the fact that we get on known for bringing their community with them, that's something that's innate to them and they don't know it.

You know? I was even talking about how we was taught to look at pouring liquor out as being something bad. Right. And it wasn't until I started really looking into our culture that we did this historically, we did this to our ancestors. We do that when we do libations right. I've even looked into fashion and, and death and how cultures around the world use fashion to symbolize death and how our young folks do that with t-shirts.

Right? So the t-shirts is so much more powerful. And I, I talked about this on my Instagram and how a t-shirt is not just a t-shirt. It has a lot of social justice and a lot of racism behind the t-shirt. Because if you think about it, t-shirts were made out of cotton Black folks pick the cotton, what Black folks couldn't afford to have the whitest of the white.

So when you could afford the whitest of the white, you know, it was valued. So you, you didn't go outside, you didn't get dirty. And those, you know, those was your Sunday's best. That was for you dressing up to put on this image that we're not poor, that we're not these feeble-minded people, that people, that don't look like us, that we were.

So if you look at that today, think about how we get dressed up to go to work. Think about how we get dressed up to go in, in town. You know, all of those things, whether it be young folks or either of us know that we're doing it, it has historical roots and that's what we want to bring to Prevention Meets Fashion.

And we really want folks to understand that fashion is not frivolous. It means a lot. And to look at it as such is doing it a disservice, you know us wanting nice things comes from a historical racist background, you know, we want it, our parents, our grandparents, our great, great grandparents wanted us to have nice things.

Nice things meant something.

I don't know if you've had a chance to visit the African-American history museum in DC. So there's the way they've got it set up. It's basically, you start out at the lowest/roughest points in Black American history. And then as you go up in the building, you know, we bounce back. So you're like traumatized at the start. Then they have this resting area it's really pretty where people break down, you know, there's water flowing where you can just relax and recover and then you continue on up and you get to where people are clearly developing their own culture, which is a blend of who we were before we were brought to the United States and who we became here.

And there's this big section on fashion after the civil war, among Black Americans being so incredibly important as not just a status marker, but part of that desire to prove and validate your humanity through things that people can see as soon as they look at you.

So part of that was definitely beautiful when you think about the intentions behind it, but then heartbreaking when you think about how many of us internalize that belief that we have to prove and validate our humanity instead of just letting white supremacy be a white supremacist problem. But it really explains why that's such a big part of Black American culture to be well-dressed and why we still give people the side eye when they come to church and holey jeans and flip flops, how that's like beyond most Black folks comprehension, but you see it all the time and white American churches, but they don't have to validate their humanity.

So they don't have that same tradition of you need to try and wear your status markers.

Last month on the 20th, we had our annual fashion condom show and our theme was Wearing Social Justice. And so we had the designers who are novice designers from the community. Everything that we do at Prevention Meets Fashion is community based and community led.

And so we had these designers and we wanted to see their interpretations of wearing social justice. So folks picked to do condom designs as bell-bottoms condom designs as denim, as pocketbooks that resembled like the disco ball for music and the best in hair, because, you know, right now we're going through hair discrimination laws, and in Pennsylvania, they still haven't signed on to the Crown Act.

And so it was amazing.

What is that? I don't think I know about that.

So the Crown Act is a bill that is trying to get passed in each state to ban hair discrimination among black folk. So the right to wear our own hair. So we have to get a law to have to be able to on hair and to be able to close this out that we created for creativity, for style or survival, we have to have a law to be able to do that.

Wow. I mean, I knew that that was needed. I didn't think we were anywhere near that point. So I didn't even know because you see, I have my hair dreaded, but I live in a very black area and a lot of the stigma has fallen away. But I know when I first dreaded my hair, people still told me, oh, you won't ever be able to get a job with your hair dreaded.

But I actually told HR I was doing it before I did it, which is ridiculous that I would have to, because it's such a natural style, but it was never an issue. But everyone around me kept saying it would be. And that wasn't because they were paranoid. That was based on real experiences they had.

Yeah. And, and like what you said, like unpacking what you said about you having to go to HR to see if you could lock your hair. And I don't ever think I’ve heard of a conversation where someone that wasn't black had to go to HR and say, can I dye my hair blonde? We think about things like that.

I remember when I first started coloring my hair, which I was well into my career. I've always wanted to color my hair, but that held me back because I needed a job. You know, I had kids I needed to provide for myself when I got to this point in my life where I just said F it, like, I want to color my hair.

So I went to the extreme, the first thing I did was dye my hair blue, and then it went to green and then it went to blonde. I was affirmed at my job because it's an LGBTQ organization, but I don't think if I would've stayed in counseling, that would have been appropriate. Right.

And I don't know if I would have been as happy because that's the way I express myself through my hair. I express myself through my clothes. So those jobs where I had to wear suits and shoes all day, I just couldn't do it.

I really couldn't like I have no problem wearing a suit but I want to put on sneakers with it, you know, on a platform with it. Or I want to wear a military boot. I don't want to have to, to look at or to appear as people think women identifying folks should

look.

Yes. Well, and that's a whole nother layer. I think with identity and clothing is if you don't identify in this super binary way that. It creates even more anxiety for you to be in work environments that are really rigid about how they want people to dress, because it's an important, maybe to some people it's not important at all. But to me, even the fact that I've really like plain clothes is a big part of my identity.

It required some level of awarenesst about how much I detested dresses to get to this plain point that we're at right now. This was a process. So in your experience professionally, how much does the stress of having to dress in ways that don't suit you? How negative of an impact can that have on people?

Well, it definitely could have a negative impact on your mental health. I mean, it does have an impact on your mental health, right? Because I think we throw around a term if you look good, you feel good a lot, but it's actually true. It's actually when you look good and feel good, it's actually science behind it and the endorphins and everything that's in your, that feel good in your body.

It increases it. You know? I know that when, you know, my eyebrows are not done or my hair not done, I feel completely down and you can tell in my clothes because I dress that way as well. And then when I get my eyebrows done, I feel like everything is better.

It definitely has a connection. And I've talked about it numerous times on our Instagram and in person. And so, so even like what you said, even the folks who get up and don't want to iron and just throw something on you're intentionally thinking whether you realize it or not, that's your aesthetic, you're intentionally doing that.

That's what you like to wear, you know? So I, I really don't like when folks say, they can't dress. Some folks dress to what they think they should be dressing like or what someone told them, they look nice in and then they keep repeating it over and over. Instead of looking inside and figuring out what do I like, what do I look nice in and taking that component and then building upon it.

So, what we want to teach people to do is what, first off, like what, what makes you feel good? Let's start there, right? Don't look in this magazine or social media or whatever you're looking at. And, and copy someone else's feel-good outfit because most of the time that's a stylist put that on that person.

They might not even like what they, what they put on a stylist, put that on them. Right. So what makes you feel good? And let's build upon that. And this is your look. There is no one way to be or dress queer. And I think when we Google, how to dress queer, you get white, skinny folks, you know, you don't get, or if you do get a Black image is always us in this masc of center look right.

You don't get that androgynous type person. And I consider my aesthetic very androgynous and athletic. You don't get that. I'm a chameleon, my clothes you will get anything from super sexy to super athletic wear. And I merge them somehow because that's me, you know, but it took me years to figure that out.

It took me years to be comfortable with it.

Tell me more about your journey to this point, because I know for a lot of people, fashion is so problematic because it's been linked to promoting only one body type as attractive. Promoting a lot of classism and a lot of fixation on really just keeping the fashion machine going.

So we think about fast fashion and there was a time in US history where it would have been normal to get clothes from someone who made them in the community. And these would be clothes that would last you a very long time. They were probably cut to fit your particular body, the way you wanted it to fit.

And you could wear it for years. Whereas now you see a lot of manipulation in the marketing to push people to say, this is what you should be wearing right now. And it just doesn't feel like a good place to a lot of people when it comes to self-expression. So what was your journey like with your relationship with fashion and when did you see the connection between your social work and the sexual health background that you have and what you're doing now?

My connection to fashion began early on. My parents were military parents. And so when they got out the military and I was old enough to be able to look at things and, and see and understand their military background, we would look in these huge photo albums. And I would just like adore my mom and like her bell bottoms and her afro, I have finer hair, as you can see really loose wave, like type thing.

My mom has really coarse hair. I always envy not being able to have an Afro, I've never had that type of hair, like, you know? And so and I joke my dad doesn't have hair anymore, but my mom, like, you have his side of the family hair.

And so I'm like, okay. I grew up looking at these photo albums and looking at my mom and bell bottoms and, you know, clogs and artists other stuff. So I would like, I immediately gravitated towards all of that because of course I wanted to look like my mom. But slowly but surely my mom took this to the extreme and started putting me in girly, girly stuff.

Like, you know, all the lace and everything was one color. And I rebelled. And so she started taking me to the store and like, what do you want? And I'm very close to my brother. And so I'm like, I want to look like my brother. And so I would pick out sweatpants and like a real big shirt and I had body self-conscious issues. I didn't realize until I got older, like why boys and men like, now I know that they were sexualizing me.

So I didn't like that attention. I started putting on baggier clothes, but yet I would still put on a heel. So I would wear the baggy, this is the style you see now I did back in the nineties. Right. And so I didn't see that it's a Mary J came out and I literally broke down and cry because I was like, here's this woman who was like wearing baggy jeans, wearing baggy shirts. But people still liked her.

I didn't even think of that as a turning point, but yeah. Now that you say it, that totally resonates.

So, you know, it was first that Little Kim stage, that overly sexy stage. I went through that and my mom allowed me to, like, I credit my mom a lot for allowing me to, to develop who I am today. Overtime. I, again, I started coming into my fashion aesthetic, which obviously I went back to the athletic wear. But as I was developing, that was where I was leaning towards. And it was this point in my life where I know I started realizing that I was attracted to other genders other than the opposite gender.

I didn't really act on it when I was younger. Because Me wearing the sweatpants and shirts. Like I remember the first time someone called me a dyke and I cried. So I stopped dressing like that and went overly sexy again.

Right. Totally not me. And I was trying so hard.

And that was even before you started noticing that you were also attracted to women. Oh, that's interesting.

And so then, you know, it was my brother who was like, you know, stop this, you know, he's younger a year younger than me. He's like, stop this. You be you.

Like, so what, like, if they call you a dyke, you be the best dyke. it doesn't even matter. Like you, you be, you, you don't, you don't change for no one else. You don't do you. You dress the way you want to dress. So then, you know, I started dialing down the bagginess and came to a happy medium.

But over that time, I started realizing that I was using my fashion to come out. I was using my fashion to display my mood. Fashion would actually help my mood. I was really depressed when I was younger.

I was a teen mom twice, but when I became a mom at 17, of course, that dialed back because now I had to put that money into my child. And I remember friends that went to high school with me was like oh, she fell off, you know, I knew it wasn't going to last, like, it was almost like they was waiting for it to like, I knew that wasn't going to dress this way anymore.

You know, now she's a mom and I'm like, no, it's the opposite. I could still afford it, but is it worth it? You know, my priorities started to shift now it was on to my two children that I had to raise. Right. And so it wasn't that I fell off.

I grew up. I think folks they grow up at their own. And so when I see folks spending all this money on stuff and making them happy,I'm like, do you, who cares what anyone else is saying? You want to spend $400 on a belt spend it, you know, but just make sure that your priorities, they're straight as well.

As a social worker, how do you tell the difference between a maladaptive coping mechanism that is hurting the person and they probably actually need something else, something more sustainable and something that just, it doesn't hurt, you know, or it really is something that brings them joy? How do you recognize the difference in yourself even?

I mean, well, of course I did self-assessment but for clients, I do a little assessment. Right. And I don't shame them. I remember it was this client who, and I just told this story, but I remember it was a client who just got diagnosed with HIV. I remembered this and she was a young mother, had three cute little boys and she was living in an abandoned minivan and she just wanted to keep buying her sons these Jordans.

And of course Jordan's are a hundred dollars to, depending on the size of your feet, a piece. So she was spending close to $500 every couple of months or sneakers, but yet living in abandoned minivan. And so I didn't shame her for it, but when she came in, I, you know, I said, oh, those are really nice sneakers, but what would that look like if you had took just a hundred dollars a day and went to the sneaker store and let's say for some Nike, some $40 Nike's for each of your kids or target some light up sneakers.

Cause they were little. What would that have looked like? And then save the rest for you to be able to get a hotel room. So you can have all your kids in one space or save up to get an apartment so that you can have running water and heat. What would that have looked like? So I challenged this client without shaming them to look at how they were spending their money.

Yes. That made you feel good because you needed that you needed to feel good about your situation that you was in. So it made you feel good to be able to buy your kids, these sneakers, to be able to have your kids look like other kids, but in the interim, you were hurting yourself and you were hurting your kids because you really didn't have it.

And so I take approaches like that with clients, especially when they use fashion as a coping tool. Fashion does not solve everything. You can put on a million dollars worth of clothes and still be sad and depressed or hate your body. We need to fix that. And then you can add those other layers on for some folks, you know, clothing protects them, but that protection is temporary.

When you take that off, then what you just, you, you have to be satisfied with who you're looking at in a mirror. So it is definitely as much deeper, you know, and so through that we created our Affirming Fashion program, which is a program where we give clients clothing on emergency basis.

So we don't have an income threshold or anything. If you need clothing, you need clothing, and if we have it, we're going to give it to you. We also do groups about affirming fashion and surveys to get the community feel on what affirms you. You know, we have a lot of gender non-conforming non-binary folks that follow us and it's affirming to them to have fashion that affirms their identity.

And so we want to do that. We want to be this resource. So we, we definitely talk about how fashion is affirming, how fashion is self-care and how fashion is more than a look at Prevention Meets Fashion.

I think affirming clothes can be really tough if you're still a kid and you don't get to make those decisions, or maybe you just don't have the money to dress yourself the way you want to. I've seen a couple of nonprofits helping with things like binders, but then I've also wondered for younger kids too how do you guide people on dressing in a way that affirms your gender that can't also hurt you? Because some people are so deeply uncomfortable and they're not in a position to get surgery now and they want to bind 24 hours a day.

You know, does the nonprofit also deal with education around that piece? Sometimes you can't get a hundred percent there with what it's going to take for you to really be comfortable and be yourself, but in the meantime, you don't want to hurt yourself.

Yes, we actually do, but we actually bring folks in to talk about that. I could read a million books on binding and what it's like, but part of being a community organization is getting those folks with that lived experience. So we absolutely bring folks in or connect folks to resources that they can then ask those questions to someone. I never want to speak on something that I haven't really experienced or feel that I don't know enough about.

And binding is one of those things. Like I know that it can be affirming, but I also know from the medical side, how damaging it can be. Right. So I definitely connect folks to the needed resources that they need to get those questions, especially with younger kids, because they shouldn't be binding 24 hours a day.

You know, I do know that it's a time limit depending on how old you are with how long you should be binding or even if it is appropriate to bind at that age, whatever age it is. As far as clothes go, I really haven't hit any younger parents really talk to me about that is mainly teenagers and up, but younger folks, I really haven't had anyone.

And now that you brought it up, but watch I get a call I really haven't had any younger folks or parents talk to me about how they can dress their younger kids and affirm from them. For one, I commend a parent if they do reach out to me, because then that means that they are a step ahead of parents who absolutely will not be having it at all.

Right. And so I definitely want to guide them in the right direction. As far as affirming fashion and, and wearing the clothes that affirms the youth, but also we got a small grant to hire community members to teach technical skills, such as sewing and crochet. The premise behind it was to also get LGBTQ folks and Black folks involved in stem and how STEAM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) can be a part of fashion, you know, taking that A and doing something with it, but also to give folks a starter for how you can make your own clothes, if you can't afford.

Because that's beyond, as affirming clothes cost a lot, you know, androgynous type clothes or all those clothes. They cost a lot.

Yeah. There was a time in the nineties when remember almost everybody still was sewing as a hobby and there were craft stores everywhere, and fabric was not expensive, but as fast fashion got cheaper and cheaper and cheaper, it became more expensive to make your own clothes. There were always clothes that you could of course shop in the men's section, which I used to do a lot before puberty, before these inconvenient curves got in the way that make men's wear implausible sometimes without altering. Altering is a really, really handy skill because if you thrift, then you could alter your clothes to make them more gender-affirming.

And that's the premise behind the sewing. And so Daisy is our instructor who's coming on board and they use, she, and they pronouns.

They are all about like teaching mending and how to up-cycle. And that's something that we want because let's say you get clothes from my Affirming Fashion program, or you go to another, like a trans clothing closet or a thrift store or whatever. And you want to make it your own. Now you have these soft skills to be able to make this outfit your own using other stuff that's in your house. So they talk about how you can take a t-shirt apart and use parts of it to make this how you can. If you have jeans that are really old how you can take the pockets off and make something else out of it, or make a pocketbook out of it, or a book bag or bag or whatever you want to call it.

So using what you have to be able to lessen that financial barrier that's out there. Because right now, as you said, a few minutes ago, it's very performative. Every designer right now has a genderless fashion line right now, because again, they think that folks like you and I are trends and we're, we're not.

It's heartbreaking to know that if you're someone who may be hasn't thought it through, or you're kind of new to the concept that like this always happens, you know, a smaller group of people has a need and the dominant culture refuses to fill it or address it. And the smaller group creates their own solution. And then everybody sees the sales and swoop in and put the smaller companies out of business.

So I could see some people thinking, oh, this is great. Look at what Zara is doing all of the sudden and thinking, oh, this company supports me. They see me. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't like, I'm not trying to throw any shade at them in particular. But think of all the other companies who have to charge higher prices because they've got smaller production and maybe also they have ethical production, it just happens to cost more money.

There are so many levels to the benefits and really thinking about, oh, what's a garment that's going to last once your sense of fashion kind of levels out. I mean, there are some people who just love to continually buy accessories, but I feel like as I've gotten older now that I know exactly what I feel best in, I don't really have any desire to keep adding things to my wardrobe.

I pretty much wear things til the wheels fall off and then replace them with something that almost looks exactly the same.

Well, you definitely I'm blanking on the term, but I think it is called a repetitive fashion and you're not the only one that does it. Like Simon Cowl does it. Right. White t-shirts basic pants. Right. You're not the only one that does that. And this is actually the psychology behind why folks do that, you know, it's cause people remember that. That's your brand, that's your look. So people think that they think that they're being not intentional, but they are being intentional, if that makes sense.

And another thing about the pandemic, like over pandemic, I started posting about shopping your own closet, right? So a lot of times we have those staples in our closet. But because we keep adding stuff on top of stuff, they get buried, they get buried. So I've challenged people to go into their closet, take everything out and look at everything right.

And put it into I wore it. I don't wear it, you know, needs to be donated type of piles. And I've even challenged myself to do it. Cause I'm one of those people that see something like, oh, I don't have this. And then I go in my closet and like, oh shoot. I do, you know, because I wasn't organized. And so I challenged myself to get organized and to look at what I had in my closet and just add staples that I didn't have instead of rebuying, rebuying and rebuying.

And I donated a lot. I gave a lot as well. I am a fan of clothing swaps, but of course when COVID happened, a lot of folks, you know, weren't able to do that. A lot of folks. Especially with the information going out that COVID can live on your clothes. It couldn't, you know, people were really afraid to like swap clothes and stuff like that, but I'm a fan of it.

Because you know, I can give someone something that I no longer wear and gets something that's essentially new. Cause that's what you're looking for. Right. That's the feeling that you're looking for, that you're getting something new that you're getting a package. And I know you asked earlier, how does that lead to sexual health?

And that is one of the love languages, right to receive stuff. So I think that's why also gravitate towards fashion and, and stuff like that because that's something you can receive. And I noticed my love language I love to receive and I love to give right. So that's how it also relates to sexual health.

But also we've been talking about how it relates to sexual health since we began this conversation since we're talking about identities and expression, and all of that is tied up with sexual health. Sexual health is not just about sex. It's about the mind, body and spirit it's about everything. And so when you look good, you feel good when you're comfortable in what you're in, you're able to express that and have that confidence with your partner or partners.

You know, a lot of times people don't wear lingerie or don't wear, you know, cute underwear because they're not happy with their body. Right. And what would that look like to have a partner? That's been like, you know what? You, you look nice in those boxers. It doesn't have to be based on what you see on TV or any of it.

You look good in those boxers. And just that one little thing could change someone's whole mood and feeling, you know, instead of them looking at what society projects as appealing or whether it's, you know, a male or female gaze, you know? I know I've had to personally check people because I don't like to see cutesy underwear.

I don't like it. Give me a pair of boxers in a heartbeat. I will, I will wear boxers. Like I like boys shorts. I like boxers. I like full-coverage underwear. I don't have thongs. And, and again, as a, as someone who studies sexual health, that's not good for folks with vaginas anyway it can cause micro lesions, like it's just not sanitary.

Oh. So underwear like that, that's not good for vaginal health could probably increase your risk for STI because you'll have more tiny cuts that you can't say. Now that's a bigger sham. That's a, I think of all the layers, because the part of the country where I was raised in sex ed in the school system was basically abstinence.

And that was also kind of the story at home. So certainly didn't get any kind of sex ed that would be useful for same sex couples. And even when you go to a physician, even now in 2021, No one seems to know anything about STIs between women. No one seems to know, like there's just not enough research there, or maybe people aren't going to continuing ed classes.

I don't know what's going on, but there are so many knowledge deficits that I feel we have. And then there's so many things that culturally cis women in particular have been trained to do that compromise your sexual health even further, like removing all of your pubic hair. That was another barrier that could help prevent STI and oh wow.

And nobody tells you this stuff before you remove it. And what if you removed it permanently? Which a lot of people did when that became

Well people to today still don't care. I go in our, during our condo Fisher show, I did a condom party and I talked about. All things condoms. Cause we always do that for our condom party. And someone that was on the Zoom was like, well, I was showing them a dental dam and showing them how to use a dental dam. And they were like, well, the person I'm with need to remove their hair. And I said, why? You know? And they couldn't tell me why, because I just always thought they need to remove their hair before oral sex.

Right. I'm like, no, do you remove your hair before you ask for oral sex? This was a male, someone with a penis and I'm like, do you remove your hair before you ask for, so why are you asking your partner, who they disclose was a cis female to remove their hair? If you're not removing your hair? When like, think of the double standards there.

You know, and this is also what images you see. Right? You see you see these images of getting waxed then and everything for female-identified folks, but you never see melody, identify folks get waxed. And if you do, they put them in, they automatically put them into the gay category. They're get like, no, you know, waxing is not an identity.

Right. You know, it's a choice, like either you wax or you don't, but that should be someone's choice. I've told people too, if that's something that you want to do wax or shave, use it as a partner activity, like use it as eroticism. Like you shave me, I'll shave you.

Like, you know what I mean?

Well, I had a question about that, so, and this may be completely bogus or outdated, but. Back in the day, they used to say don't shave don't floss the day before an encounter with a partner that you're not in a closed relationship with or who you've been tested with. Is there any truth to that?

It is. It actually is. So again, when you're, when you get waxed or you shave, you want to at least give yourself 24 to 48 hours, because again, you don't know nicked yourself anywhere. You want to give the skin a chance to heal a little bit because you can get infections flossing, your gums, and brushing your teeth.

Yes, we do say don't do that as a risk reduction, even though it's a low, a low risk when you're looking at the HIV scale. So it was high, medium, and low. It's a low. It's still a risk. And so, you know, you want to make sure that you're giving people all the information too, so that they can make an informed decision.

And I think that's why I don't carry the line anymore, but I used to carry a line of flavored lubes and this particular company actually worked with a dental hygienist to come up with do, that was flavored. That was actually good for your teeth and gums and stuff, because people were worried about their breakfast stuff like this.

So they actually came up with one that was really good for oral sex that, so that people wouldn't have to worry about the, the breath,

Oh, after tasting like that after,

So you ate something or whatever like that it was, it was, yeah. So I thought that was really cool. I, I don't carry them anymore because it upends them mimic.

Like I just wasn't, you know, pushing products and I don't have a website anymore. So hopefully once I get my website up and running, I could be able to offer tools like that. Cause I don't think people know that there's options out there, like what it is. Actually. I love debunking myths and you know, a lot of myths come with truth.

And if people just know the right thing, then you know, you're doing your due diligence,

Yeah. I mean, it's really helpful to have all the information because to me, things that you do to groom your body and fashion, like it's all part of the same thing and everybody has their own aesthetic, but then you, sometimes you form these preferences without knowing what other things you might be sacrificing.

So for you, if you can still grow your bush back, you might want it. Like, I don't know, once you weigh it all out, plus, you know, fashion goes in cycles. There was a time when everybody wanted to be totally bare and then people started doing more designs and then some people just want to go all the way back natural.

It's interesting though. Once you think about all the different images we're exposed to about this is the ideal body ageism is definitely is a big issue because I don't know that I've ever seen gray body hair depicted anywhere. People get gray hair everywhere, but you just never see it. It seems like people usually don't discover that that doesn't click until they get their first gray body hair and they're like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't know this was going to happen.

Or they shave or they dye it. You know, it's just like this, this scary thing to people that you're aging. And I never looked at it that way when I was little, I used to tell my grandma, I can't wait to get, you know, salt and pepper hair like you.

And everybody's like, well, I would dye my hair and I'm like, no, like I love my grandma. I can't wait to look like my grandma. Right. But people try to hide things. And of course I had, I was so happy when I got like two strands and then I cut my hair and it went away and never grew back. So hopefully, hopefully as I age, I get my grandma’s salt and pepper hair.

I would love that, you know you know, also as remembering her, she passed away, three years ago in April. So yeah, I would love that, you know, I've always embraced my body hair, which I had a conversation with someone is really a touchy subject for me because I'm Muslim and you really can't have body hair.

And so it's, so, you know, when I chose to have or keep my body here and my, and if my partners was Muslim, that was an issue. Right. Men and women, both can’t have body hair. And so and so that was a huge issue for me in advocating, especially in the sexual health space, where you have advocates, like, yeah, keep your hair.

And I'm like, you're not, again, you're not thinking culturally on how something. Cool because of religion.

I literally never heard of that before. And I know so many Muslim people.

Cleanliness and being clean cleanse for your partner, for your, so yeah, I definitely struggled with things, you know a lot. I get dinged every now and again on it, but yeah, but again, being in public health is like, is, is needed, right?

I am a person with a vagina. I don't want infections. I don't want any bacteria. When I'm in the community, I'm walking more. So now you have sweat and, you know materials rubbing against, and that's a barrier. I don't want to shave it.

You know, all these different things that you know, that we don't think about. Pubic hair does for us and shields us from.

Right, right. That's a really good point. That's so, it's so interesting too. When you think about the things that are going to change in the body as you age, that people don't generally discuss, because they're so cagey about aging, it's it can be very handy for other reasons, too, just as all muscles begin to relax, you know, not everything is going to stay in the same position it was when you were a teenager. So just something else to think about.

Where can people connect with your brand now? And when you have people come in doing the tutorials, you said you're not just bound to your state, are these something that people can sign up for online?

Yeah. So right now where, you know, obviously I'm trying to raise money so that we can create a website and have a more.

This have more of a reach for folks, but right now we're on Instagram, @preventionmeets fashion, and we have a link tree and all of our events all of our donation buttons, everything that we're doing is, is dumped into our link tree. Also you can find me on LinkedIn under my name, Nhakia T Outland MSW.

I believe that's how it is on here. Fun fact, I had to change it because I started getting messages from young, white teenagers, like on, on LinkedIn and come to find out, we laughed about it. I met the young man, but he had the same initials as me, cause mines used to be N T Outland and he had the same initials.

So all his friends were like DMing me and stuff. So it was really cool. We all got to meet. So now is NT Outland MSW. But yes, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find my business on Instagram @preventionmeetsfashion.

And we look forward to connecting with folks and following us and being in community. I love being around people.

Thank you so much. If there was one thing that you could share with everyone and they would instantly understand it, internalize it and carry it with them for the rest of their lives, what would you want to tell people? What would you want people to know?

I think what I will want people to know is something I say all the time and that's, be yourself. There's nothing wrong with being yourself. Society tells us so much that we need to be and act like someone else, but what would it look like if we all just were ourselves? I say that all the time, you know, just be yourself. Personally with me, I always say, I am me and people be like, oh, that's problematic.

It's not because I am me. I bring me everywhere. I bring me to corporate meetings. I bring me to community meetings. I bring me to parent teacher meetings. I bring me to the bar. You're getting Nhakia. Like you don't get a different version. You're getting me. And that's easiest for me because I don't have to worry about code-switching or remembering what I said or didn't say here or whatever like that.

The only thing you might get as you heard on this call is you might get a different outfit. That's about it. You might get a different hair color or a different look. But other than that I'm just me.

I love that. Oh, that's beautiful.

Body Liberation for All Theme

Yeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.

It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

Angela Ocampo is an intuitive guide, Curandera in training, ancestral wisdom keeper, healer, writer, and old soul. She is devoted to activating, facilitating, and opening portals for others to remember the truths and medicine that lie within us.

Through intuitive channeling, energy work, ritual, ancestral healing, Earth medicine, shadow love, and embodiment, Angela works to help others explore and reclaim the forgotten divine parts of the self, including peace, mysticism, ancestral gifts, power, light, and liberation. This episode we explore

* Sitting with the truth of combined colonized and colonizer ancestry

* Using ancestral remembrance to unearth the ancient wisdom that lies within you

* Using embodied grounding tools

* Connecting to the body as a source of power

Episode Resources

https://www.instagram.com/iamangelajo/

https://www.subscribepage.com/ancestralconnection

Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

Bali Retreat March 19-25 2023

I was raised in a super conservative, slightly fundamentalist Christian situation and over the last five years or so, it has brought me so much joy to pursue traditional spiritual practices that are more connected to my ancestry and that aren't directly connected to colonization and the transatlantic slave trade that said there's a lot of resistance in my part of the world anyway, to ancestor veneration or ancestor worship or ancestor remembrance practices.

I have found that while ancestor veneration exists all over the world, people's understanding of it really varies from culture to culture and from person to person, quite frankly, whether or not people actually believe their ancestors can hear them and are directly responding to them, whether people see their ancestors as intermediaries between people who are living and actual deities, or whether people think it's just something that you do that is deeply embedded in the culture and that it is good for you psychologically to remember the people that came before you, but no one can actually hear you.

So it certainly varies, but I personally I've gotten so much comfort and joy from exploring ancestor veneration that I'm thrilled to have Angela Ocampo with us today who's going to introduce us to ancestor remembrance practices.

Angela is coming to us from an indigenous Colombian perspective. And she is going to share with us, her understanding of ancestor remembrance practices. The value that it’s had in her life and the healing potential that it has. Angela is an intuitive and uses embodiment work and dancing to reconnect people to their own intuition and to their own truth. A lot of times when you feel like you don't know which way to go in life and what's up and what's down. The truth is you do know, but you no longer are feeling confident in acknowledging what you know intuitively and you're seeking ways to validate or prove your opinions rather than just feeling them and going with them. So one of Angela's gifts is helping people get around that feeling of stuckness.

So this is an excellent episode. Near the latter portion of the episode, Angela even shares a short meditation with us. So when you get to that section, you're going to want to make sure you're not driving. And that you're in a position where it's going to be safe to get a little relaxed and comfortable. And even though the meditation is brief, don't worry Angela's website is up now and you can visit https://www.angelaocampo.com/ and get a longer version of that meditation.

I also have a pretty exciting announcement. I will be hosting my first ever in-person retreat in Bali next March. So that'll be spring break for a lot of people. So hopefully you have that time off and you'll be able to join us as well.

There are a lot of exciting excursions planned its going to be focused on teaching you to relax your nervous system and to recover more quickly from any of the stressors you might encounter at home or at work. And for you to really develop recovery practices so that while you're feeling totally relapsed, Totally calm, totally at home in your body, on the trip. You don't have to worry that when you go back home when you fight your way through the airport, you'll completely lose all of that peace.

No, you'll be going home with recovery practices. So you can keep returning to that sense of calm so that your nervous system. can stay in the zone that it's meant to be in. We're not meant to constantly be keyed up, stressed out, clenching your teeth, waiting for the other shoe to drop. So it's going to be a wonderful week. It is very far away if you live on the east coast of the us, but I know it's going to be so beautiful and so refreshing. There'll be more details to come. But if you are super excited about the idea of actually hanging out in a wellness space, that's centered on people of color and queer folks and you want to go ahead and check it out and put your deposit in, just visit https://www.daliakinsey.com/retreat, and you'll see the details there.

Al right. Let's get on into today's episode.

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Dalia: Hi, Angela. Thank you so much for coming on.

Angela: Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Dalia: When I got your email, I signed up for it and listened to the meditation for connecting to your ancestors. I immediately thought people needed to know about this and needed to hear about the work that you're doing.

Dalia: Let's start with, what are your marginalized identities and what does connecting to your ancestors mean for you?

Angela: Yeah. So I am, a cisgender woman. I'm heterosexual as well. I come from Columbia, I'm a woman of color. I also have indigenous ancestry. So for me, it has been kind of like a rediscovery journey to meet with my ancestors and connect with them. Because my indigenous ancestry was colonized, a lot of their culture was taken away from them.

Angela: And so a lot of the things weren't passed down to, to my family, to my lineage. So I think there was always a disconnect for me where I felt called, you know, to be on the earth and be outside. But I, I just didn't know why. And maybe like a little bit of stories from my family was passed down, but I, I just always felt called.

Angela: So when I found ancestral work, I just felt into my body. This is what I need. As, as someone who, you know, was on a spiritual journey anyway, I was always somewhat of a seeker I always wanna find out the truth and just go deep.

Angela: So ancestral healing has, has been able to connect me again with like my roots and where I come from. And it creates this sense of belonging. And it creates a sense of just peace in a way, because you are You are discovering who, who you really are, what is your blood?

Angela: And you're creating these pathways of remembrance. And that will not only help you, but it's gonna help the generations that come after you.

Dalia: Now that's fascinating because almost all of us are descendants of people who were colonized. When you look at how much of the planet was colonized it is mind boggling.

Dalia: As their children, we are both descendants of the colonized and the colonizer.

Dalia: Did you feel any sort of conflict around that when you connect to your ancestors, do you feel like you belong to them, but you don't feel called to connect to colonizer ancestors?

Angela: Yeah. That is a duality that I have been facing. Right. It's it's a confronting duality. And I think I pushed it away for so long. I only wanted to see, yeah, yeah I have indigenous blood, but then that was like the other side, like I needed to face it because that is part of me.

Angela: And so I do feel like before I felt more resistance to it and I feel that for, for some reason I have a really strong connection to my indigenous ancestry more it's probably because the stories that I know are mostly from that side of the family. And I feel that the more that I connect with that side I'm opening up the pathway of connecting to that other side, who is the colonizer.

Angela: And I feel there's a sense of kind of like reclamation. And I do feel It's kind of confronting because the colonizer had, you know, they didn't have great intentions, you know, there was violence and there was just a lot of harmful things to, to our colonized ancestors.

Angela: So I think approaching it in a way where it's it's intentionally saying to, to the energies, like, I wanna connect with the ancestors who have divine intentions and that in a way already sets like the boundaries and knowing that, you know, when people cross over, they. They tend to, you know, like it's, it's a clearing, right?

Angela: That they have like kind of like the karma falls down and, and they, they could become pure, but at the same time, some people don't like some, some, some souls, you know, get stuck or so I feel that it's important, even when. When I do get to that point about my social remembrance journey to connect with the colonizer side, to know that I have protection over my own energy.

Angela: I have protection of what I live in and I can choose to connect to the good side of them because I like to believe that there was some good in them regardless, and, you know, they did horrible things, but they're still part of me. So I have to like come to terms with that as well.

Dalia: I like that framing and that you can set a boundary for what type of energy you want to draw in and which ancestors you want to hear from.

Angela: I think that that's helpful to know too, because I think ancestral healing is sometimes it, it can be scary for people because of the fact that a lot of us have ancestors who weren't, you know, the most pure people on the earth, right? Like they, they probably did a lot of harmful things and and so it can, it can bring up a lot.

Angela: And that's why I'm also a huge advocate while doing ancestral healing work to have some sort of tools that ground you and that will help, you know, clear any energy that is moving through you because a lot of it can be confronting, especially if you're just new to it. And so that's like, tools basically like dancing I love dancing and it connects me to my ancestors as well.

Angela: And so anything that, that allows you to release anything that may come up. I believe our bodies hold so much wisdom and our bodies have our ancestors' blood. So I really love working with the body to, to come to a neutralized point of when you're doing that ancestral work, cuz a lot can come up for sure.

Dalia: Would you say that the greatest tool that you have for connecting to your ancestors is your own body?

Angela: I actually, I do believe that because I like to believe that I'm very in tune with my body and I think everyone can get there. I think society kind of programs us into thinking like, oh, we're so disconnected or our intuition is, is wrong.

Angela: But really like, as, as if you're being, when you came to this earth, like you. As a baby, like you, you knew what your body needed and that's why you like cried and you were hungry. Ever since we come out out of the womb, like we are very in tune with our bodies and it's just that programming and conditioning that disconnects us.

Angela: The oppressor wants us to be disconnected from our bodies because that is how we lose our power. So I believe getting into our bodies and using it as a tool for ancestor work is a way that we take our power back. And I feel that also meditation, like going through deep meditations allows me to use my body to kind of just like spark that, that like connection.

Angela: Like I mentioned, it brings, it has so much wisdom sometimes. I like I'm in, I'm in nature or like, I listen to a song and like, I feel it, and my body, like this deep, like a tingling sensation. It's, it's not something that my mind can really like give a meaning to, but it's like my body knows first.

Angela: Right. I feel too that because our soul is, is connected to our body. It it's like holding our body. The body is one of the, the greatest allies, because it speaks directly. Like it doesn't allow the mind, the mind that allows, that sometimes tells us that we're overthinking it, or, you know, it puts like doubts in our head.

Angela: I think the body comes from a place of pureness.

Dalia: Hmm. I love that framing because my first thought was, well, how do you know that you can connect to your ancestors? So my first reaction was how do we process this intellectually? How do we know that we can even do this? And that ancestral work is something that we can all access. Because when you don't have access to a lot of the traditions that your ancestors practiced.

Dalia: I know, sometimes you feel anxiety around, like, am I doing this correctly? Can I recreate traditions that are lost? But what is your take on that? I would imagine that if the body is the guide, then there are many ways, even if you don't have any way to know the exact traditions that were used, that there are many ways to tap into this power.

Angela: Correct. Yeah. I, I believe our intuition is our biggest guide. And the body, like the body, what it feels the sensations. So for anyone that doesn't have access to, you know, who your ancestors were, I say, the first thing is like, what do you feel inclined to? That is the first thing that you wanna attempt into. A lot of us have, we love things that don't have.

Angela: Maybe we just don't realize like why we love what that certain thing, but we just do. So like tapping into that because we we hold so much wisdom that we might not be conscious of, but sometimes we're just drawn to things. So I would say for those people that don't have accesses to really lean into what you're drawn to, what calls your attention and really experiment, right?

Angela: If, if you know, for example, if you know, you, you have ancestry from Africa, start listening to some African music. What are you called to, there's just so much music that you, that you can tap into and there's different kinds. So like start tapping into that. Maybe seek out some recipes and start seeing like what you really love, what you don't really like.

Angela: And, and maybe like seeing maybe if you really love a dish or a certain song, like start researching the roots, where does it come from? Who are the artists that created it? So I think we can really use our intuition to see what we're naturally drawn to, because again, our ancestors are in our blood they're even if we're not conscious of it, they're guiding us and they're speaking through us.

Angela: Even if it seems like we're, we're not, we're not in communication with them. They're always trying to, to tap in. So that's what I would recommend to start like diving in for sure.

Dalia: I love that- so approachable. When you say the ancestors always speaking through us and guiding us, does that communication go in both directions?

Dalia: Do you think it matters how you live your life as far as resolving previous hurts that maybe your ancestors weren't able to resolve in their lifetime?

Angela: Yeah. So yes, I think it is, it is both ways. I actually believe in calling them in intentionally and that is how I started on my journey I did a meditation that kind of like opened up the portal for me.

Angela: And from there, I just started to call them in and speak to them, pray to them. It's like another relationship, it has to be nourished. It takes some work to, to, to let them in, like you have free will as a human. So they're not going to just be like, Hey, you know, and barge in on you.

Angela: You have to open up that door and you have to open up the lines of communication. If you wanna have consciously a relationship with them. And so in terms of like healing, the wounding, I think it's, it's gonna be definitely a journey and it's not gonna happen overnight.

Angela: I think it's, it's something that if you feel called to ancestral work, this is definitely like you were chosen by your ancestors because they're. There are things and, and resources that they didn't have in order to heal. And now, as a, as a generation that has a ton of resources, you know, we have resources to therapy to just reeducation.

Angela: I feel Google is just a resource on its own. We're also coming into this time of, of awakening just as a society, as a collective and as a wanting to also liberation, especially for BIPOC people. And so I think. That's why so many people have been wanting to connect with the ancestors because they know that they will give them the strength and the wisdom and the guidance that they need to heal those woundings that have permeated so much of their familial lineage. I think that's why we crave that connection, because again, it gives us a sense of belonging. It gives us a sense of strength and a wisdom that, that maybe, you know, if, if you're just starting your spiritual journey or like your reclamation journey maybe you haven't found it anywhere else.

Angela: And I feel like ancestors give you just. Very grounded and, you know, they come from the earth, right? So they give you a very grounded wisdom and strength. And so I really believe yeah, that, that they support you on healing, that those booming, and we can definitely call them in and call their energy in it simply starts by opening yourself up to that, to that relationship.

Dalia: Have you learned any of the names of your ancestors? Did you do a combination of trying to call them in and accessing information you could find about them?

Angela: Yeah, so I actually have a spirit guide. Spirit guides for me are just a team of souls of spiritual souls that, that protect me and support me.

Angela: And so we all have this, we all have a team. And so sometimes we have ancestors who are also our spirit guides. So I have one her name is Esmeralda and she is my ancestor from a very long time ago. So from the indigenous lineage and I met her through going through a meditation and wanting to meet other people in my spirit team.

Angela: I had already met a few of them, but I knew I had a feeling that there was an, a sister there and I really wanted to tap into her energy. So, so that's how I met her. And other than that I've been doing also research. I actually just found out where my grandma from my mom's side was born was the land that she was born on.

Angela: And she's the one that carries that, that indigenous blood. And so I was doing some research on the plants or just like anything, anything that I could find to connect me. So I'm actively trying to find more names. Sometimes I do get like, when I'm doing deep meditations or just like breathwork, breathwork is really great too in taking you really deep.

Angela: Sometimes I don't even go intentionally trying to meet with my ancestors. They just find a way to, to enter because I have this open portal for them and they're welcome to come into my energy. So, so I have encounters with them like that.

Angela: And I've, I've been able to get some, I can't remember now the exact name, but I, they do have very tribal indigenous names. And so it's been really healing and just also very empowering and, and beautiful to, to have those experiences with them and, and kind of like see a part of myself reflected in them.

Dalia: So that brings up a couple of questions for me. I had wondered how do you get into that deeper meditative state? When you say breath work, what does that mean?

Angela: Yeah, so breathwork is is just, it's another modality. There are breathwork practitioners. So it's it's I do it like that. Breathwork where you're taking three breaths. So you take the first breath taking an air from your belly, then your chest, and out through your mouth. And it takes you into a very meditative state.

Angela: You just kind of get out of your head. And so these processes are usually around 30 to an hour. And so. There are breathwork tracks online that you can try. I found some on YouTube and I also have friends who are breathwork practitioners who, who use this service as a healing modality. So I recommend that because it's really powerful and using our breath to really get into our bodies and get out of our heads. And it's also a very healing modality for also any trauma that you have experienced. So I really I'm a fan of breath work and in terms of another modality that I really love any deep meditation. I find them on YouTube.

Angela: For people that are maybe just starting out, maybe a guided meditation would be the best way to just, you know, maybe not, not one with a lot of words or just something to get you in the deep like relaxed state. And I think before you go to bed is like one of the best things, maybe like creating like a little nighttime routine. Yeah, maybe sitting at the edge of your bed before going to sleep. I think the nighttime is like a really good time to, to take advantage of just like your body is already getting into a meditative state because sleep is a meditative state.

Angela: And even saying like a prayer. Call in your ancestors before you go to sleep and invite them into your dreams. Cause they can come into your dreams and kind of just do the work for you. You don't really have to do a meditation. Those are three ways that I would recommend to, to go into a deep meditative state.

Dalia: When you're looking online for meditations how can you tell the difference between one that will take you deeper and maybe something that's more superficial, or what is the opposite of a deep meditation?

Angela: Yeah, I personally don't like the ones that are short, the ones that are just like five to 10 min 10 minutes, because I feel like I need more time to, to really dive in.

Angela: So the, the longer ones that have they usually have the music like singing bowls . So I think those, so I would look for ones that are around.

Angela: I would say at least 25 minutes. Because that really allows you to give your mind time, to really soak, soak it and, and, and sit into that meditation. And so that's what I look for. And I look for ones that. I don't have so much of words, so many. I, I like to kind of go on my own and I like to create my own imagery in my head.

Angela: But if people do like the guided ones, if that works better for you, then, then that's something that you can do. Just anything that maybe takes you into a relaxed day that creates some peace would be helpful.

Dalia: Can you describe your concept of the afterlife? when you are calling the ancestors, what do you imagine they're doing? Are they not going to move on to some other place or some other thing? Where are they?

Angela: Yeah. So that's a really great question. So I think when people move on into the afterlife, they become an infinite kind of energy. So they can really be everywhere at once. So I believe that they, they come into the energy that when they are invited into the energy. Once I really started to, okay, I'm going through a spiritual awakening and I'm really gonna dedicate myself to it.

Angela: And once I made that decision, that's when. All the ancestral healing just like, started to, like, I started seeing it's just coming everywhere. And so it was signs, right? I think as soon as I opened myself up to they started to enter my energy space.

Angela: When I call them in, because I know that they can be everywhere at once. They're just kind of like there, but when they, when I call on them I can feel them. Because I am so tuned into that. That's how I view what happens to a soul after and afterlife.

Angela: It's about that opening being open to, to know that their energy is infinite. Hmm.

Dalia: Now the people that are around you or the spirits that are around you that are a team that guide you, are they all blood relatives or can you have no children while you're here and end up as an ancestor.

Angela: For me, it's it's mostly my family, but I, I tend to connect mostly with my. The ancestors that lived a very long time ago. So the indigenous ancestors I can connect with with the people that let's say my grandma from one generation ago, but I, I feel that. The I'm for some reason, I feel very connected to the indigenous part and that's probably cuz something in me wants to be activated through that.

Angela: My work usually involves the family, like the, the blood relatives, but I have heard other. Other people that do ancestral work and ancestral remembrance that also consider the people that steward their land like ancestors or just people that were close to the family. So it doesn't necessarily have to be blood relatives.

Angela: I do know other people that are considered ancestors that are exactly related to blood. So I think it's really anyone that you, that you, that you or your family, or just anything that, that was surrounding that you felt very connected to. I think a big thing is also like the ancestors of the land.

Angela: I would definitely consider, you know, the people that steward the land that I stand on as ancestors, because they took care of our land and they, we have this place to live because of them.

Angela: And so I think it's like an emotional connection there. I think ancestors don't have to be necessarily blood it just needs to have a connection. Like what connection do you have there with them?

Dalia: You mentioned that you do readings for people. Can you describe your gifts to us more and how you use them to help other people and to guide you in how you live your life?

Angela: Yeah, so I connect with the energies around you. So I can connect to your spirit guides. I can connect to your ancestor lineage or through mediumship or an a past ancestor. I can also connect to your highest self, your soul. I use this as a way to kind of gain clarity for people so people come to me when they're not sure, they're kind of like a little bit in their heads and, and they feel kind of disconnected, they're not sure if they're the right path or how to really embody more of their soul.

Angela: I use my gifts to tap into their spiritual team and to give them the guidance right from a pure place, from a place that knows them all and, and supports them in everything. A lot of the time the, the spirits are funny because, or just like the spiritual realm, because they tend to like lead you back to yourself.

Angela: It's kind of like, you know the answer and you have the answers inside of you, but they do try to, you know, give you the, the clarity and the direction that you need to find a way. So I feel like the, that journey, they always seem to have this saying where it's kind of like you are right here right now for purpose and this obstacle, this challenge that you're going through right now it's taking you to where you need to go. It's kind of like the journey is needed here so you can get to your highest self , to your true self and to your most pure self, to your most whole self.

Angela: So that is what I do in my readings. I go with the intention of the client, what they need if they're going through a transition or if they really wanna reconnect with, you know, their lineage. So we go in there and we get as much information as we can to really give them that clarity and also the comfort in knowing that they are supported.

Angela: And they're actually a pure being that has so much guidance available to them.

Dalia: That sounds incredible. I know today you came prepared to offer us a little entry point into a meditation or having an ancestral remembrance practice. Can you introduce us to that?

Angela: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Okay. So. Let's dive right in.

Angela: So if you can I invite you to close your eyes. If you can't close your eyes, just simply focus on a certain spot around you. And I want you to invite you to go ahead and take three deep breaths.

Angela: And when you exhale, I want you to make a sigh or make an audible sound.

Angela: Alright now, I'm gonna invite you to go ahead and just move your body the way that it wants to just give yourself a little wiggle. Maybe you have some tight spots. Maybe you've just been sitting after a long day. Just give yourself some movement so we can really get into the body and allow spirit to move through us.

Angela: When you're ready, I want you to go ahead and just place your hands, wherever it feels right. So maybe, maybe on your heart, maybe on your stomach, maybe on your legs, whatever makes you feel most comfortable. And I want you to go ahead and imagine a white light coming in from the crown of your head all the way down to your toes.

Angela: So you're gonna imagine it slowly cleansing your entire body. So going through your throat, going through your heart, through your stomach, through your legs, and exiting out through your toes.

Angela: And from here, I want you to imagine a yellow golden light right in the middle of your eyebrows. And this is where your third eye lies, this is where your intuition lies, and you're gonna notice this light just permeating your entire forehead, then you're gonna see it extend out into your body. And now to the surroundings, and you are gonna see it extend out as far as you can imagine out into the earth.

Angela: And as you see it connect to the earth, you're going to thank the earth just internally for her healing presence for supporting you and supporting your lineage and activating this connection that we're about to embark on.

Angela: And now that the earth has reflected this beautiful energy back into your aura. You're gonna see this light coming back into your surroundings, coming back into your body, coming back into your aura, and coming back into your third eye.

Angela: And now I'm gonna invite you to do a prayer, to call in your ancestors. So you can repeat this prayer internally or externally. Do whatever feels right. Whatever feels right is perfect. So we're gonna go ahead and say, I invite in my ancestors right now. I call in their presence. I call in their guidance. I call in their strength.

Angela: I call in their wisdom.

Angela: I invite the ancestors with divine intention to make contact with me in the way that they know they can. I open up myself to receive their wisdom and their guidance and any moment that is available to me.

Angela: I trust that I am supported and guided by my ancestors, who long to make connection with me. And I open myself up to receive their magic.

Angela: And just let that permeate every inch of your being.

Angela: And now I invite you to simply say, thank you. Thank you for this moment. Thank you to your ancestors for bringing you here. In this moment for giving you what you have for giving you the wisdom and the strength to make it to where you are today.

Angela: And now from here, you can trust that this relationship with your ancestors is officially opened. As you have opened up your heart to them and to receive their guidance.

Angela: Alright. So we're gonna just go ahead and quickly close by taking another, just three deep breaths. And remember to just make a sound to just let out any energy that might have moved through when you exhale.

Angela: Alright. When you're ready, just go ahead and open your eyes and come back into the space.

Dalia: Thank you so much for that.

Angela: You're welcome.

Dalia: You mentioned you're welcomed that dancing could be a way to ground yourself. Can you give us a couple of other things that can ground you?

Angela: Yes. So I do have some tools in my toolbox, so I really love just simply breathing. Like we just did the breathing, filling up your belly and bringing it up to your chest and, and exhaling with a sound has been so grounding for me, especially because I noticed that throughout the day my breath is very shallow.

Angela: And so really taking the moment to just let the breath fill my body up with life is one, one beautiful way to ground yourself. And especially if you find yourself in triggering moments breath bringing your attention back into the breath is, is really grounding. Another thing for me, I, I also recommend music, music, especially something that, that is tied to your ancestral lineage.

Angela: So anything that, that kind of just reminds you of home is, is something that I love to. To just, you know, put everything away and just kind of like sit in my bed and listen to music. I feel so grounded in that as well as nature. Nature is a natural resource. If you don't live in the city, you can just go outside and just be like on the grass. Taking off your shoes and putting your your feet on the earth is, is incredibly healing because you're taking in that the Earth's frequency. So those are like my few favorite ways. I also obviously like meditation as well, and just sitting in silence and noticing, you know, I think people have the misconception that meditation is about clearing your mind. I really just like to, to use it as a way for self self-awareness when I'm just doing meditations by myself. because it just allows me to drop in. Okay. Like what's in my head right now.

Angela: How can I bring myself back to center? And it just kind of creates this again, this relationship with myself. So those are like a few of my tools to get grounded.

Dalia: that is so helpful. Where can people find you if they'd like to learn more or wanna know how to work with you? Yeah, so I hang out a lot on Instagram.

Angela: My Instagram handle is @iamangelajo. It stands for my middle name. And then I am working on my website. I don't ha I don't have website currently, but on Instagram you can find any links and, and you can find out how to work me, work with me there.

Dalia: Perfect. Thank you so much.

Angela: Thank you so much for having me.

I hope you enjoyed that and that you will take out the time to connect with Angela's work. If you are still on Instagram, check her out there, or you can just jump on her mailing list, visit her site and grab that meditation. I loved the invitation to the ancestors to connect and that she included that prayer for us really resonated to me and felt really helpful. You would think when it comes to spiritual things, we wouldn't be worried about doing things the right way all the time or thinking that things need to be prescribed. But a lot of the religious traditions that we have grown up with are very prescribed and they don't feel accessible. And there was generally another person there to tell you precisely how things should go or someone who serves as an intermediary. So it is a little bit of a reach sometimes when you start exploring spiritual practices that are more independent.

And that actually allow you more freedom. Sometimes you get freedom at you don't know exactly what to do with it. So I really appreciate that she modeled that for us. And that she offered such a simple entry point to starting to explore ancestor remembrance practices. If that's something we feel called to do.

Remember if you haven't already picked up your copy of Decolonizing Wellness it is now available all over the place. The book is full of helpful exercises that you can do to feel more present in your body to feel more connected to your intuition and to your whole self, instead of just little parts of ourselves that have been deemed worthy or acceptable by the world around us.

If you are listening to this episode on a podcast player, and you're not listening to on Substack. I highly encourage you to follow the show on https://daliakinsey.substack.com/ because, in addition to getting this episode every month, there is a blog post on the 15th of every month. And for people who are supporting members of the show, there's also a bonus.

As always, thank you so much for being here. I'll see you next time.

Are you a leader of color who wants to lead and empower in revolutionary ways? Then you need Gieselle Allen...Gieselle works with revolutionary leaders of color to support them in expanding their businesses, team, and leadership, while also ensuring their needs are met in the process. In her mindset-first approach, she combines mindset, trauma healing and intuition to help her clients create and expand their businesses and revolutionary leadership practices.

If discovering the confidence that comes with: decolonizing your thoughts, owning your identity, and building a thriving life that reflects your values and resonates with your core sounds like a vibe, you don’t want to miss this conversation. This episode we explore

* What having a revolutionary business entails

* The role that safety plays in learning and healing

* Getting comfortable with having more than enough

* Overcoming fear to answer a call to liberatory work

Episode Resources

https://www.instagram.com/gieselleallen/

https://gieselleallen.com/

Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

Hello and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I am so excited about today's guest. If you are a leader of color who wants to lead and empower in revolutionary ways you need Gieselle Allen, I was in Gieselle’s coaching program now almost a year plus ago. And the changes that I experienced in the program were enough to sell me on it, but the way it served as a catalyst for growth throughout 2020 was just beyond amazing. Gieselle works with revolutionary leaders of color to support them in expanding their businesses, their teams, and their leadership while making sure all of their needs are met in the process. And this is something that unfortunately, a lot of us have never had the opportunity to experience.

So, the ways in which your socialization has affected the way you approach business, the way you approach speaking up, the way you approach really leaning into your identities and feeling safe is something that a lot of us haven't visited before.

Having a coach that will specifically address the ways in which your socialization as a person of color has set up barriers that you can step around and circumvent, once you're aware of them its absolutely life changing because this is not the type of instruction or care we're used to.

Sometimes it's hard to even know how much of a difference it would make to have somebody tailor an educational program, a coaching program specifically to you and to address the challenges the other people for so long have been pretending don't even exist.

I love this conversation with Gieselle. Let's jump right in

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Yeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.

It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

Dalia: I am so excited to have you here.

Gieselle: I'm really excited to be here. I'm thrilled. I've been like, I was, I've been like eyeing your podcast for forever. And I was like, when am I, when am I gonna be on this podcast? Like a baby. So, I'm really glad it's working out and that we're here.

Dalia: This is awesome.

Dalia: I'm glad you asked because as you know, for people who haven't already listened to the episode that I was on with someone else who was in the same coaching group as me, when I worked with you, Gieselle basically is out here changing lives and liberating people in ways that you don't even see it coming.

Dalia: So, you think you're just stuck in your business and really, that's not the problem. The problem is mindset, and how we've been socialized is behind it. But I'd gotten a ton of coaching from containers that weren't made for me.  and they really didn't get to the root of my problem. So maybe they got to the root of like Becky's issue and like, oh, why don't I feel comfortable?

Dalia: Cuz my Lululemon’s are too tight or whatever, and worked on her visibility problems, but didn't get to me being socialized to not take up space don't challenge authority, and don't you dare do anything culturally distinct because we will. Beat you for it, we'll punish you for it. So being in your container was life changing.

Dalia: And Sarah came on the show and discussed how much the changes ripple out as time goes by. But even though I feel like I've grown so much since the container, I still would've thought Gieselle doesn't wanna be on my podcast. like Gieselle's too big, and too busy, doesn't have time.

Gieselle: Well, you know, what's funny is I feel like I'm just moving into a season where I have the capacity to like be out and, in the world, and on people's podcasts there, it's not about me being too big.

Gieselle: I'm still really small and like the grand scheme, I'm small, I'm intimate. I'm exclusive.

Dalia: I love that. Take on it. Yes.

Gieselle: Yeah. I'm exclusive. I, and I wanna be exclusive, like, that's my whole thing. I'm the kind of person where like when white folks follow me on Instagram, I delete 'em and like, I'm not gonna respond to your you' like random comment on my stuff.

Gieselle: Like, I'm not gonna engage with you if you're white, like I'm very much like I'm for I'm for who I'm for. And if it's not you then like, I'm cool with it. There's enough people in the world. And I don't need that many to be in my community.

Dalia: Wow. I mean, even that, how, what had to change for you to be able to get to a point that it feels safe to say that and that you don't feel compelled to explain this doesn't mean I don't like white people. It means my business is not for white people.

Gieselle: Yeah. That's a really great question. What had to change? I think what had to change is that scarcity that we've all been sold and the devaluing of folks of color that we've all been sold. Right. Where people, you know, I remember when I was gonna make this change and like a big thing I was scared of and a big thing that like, people still, mostly just my dad at this point, but like people still say to me is like, oh, like how much more money could you make if you are working with white folks?

Like we're missing out on those white dollars?

Dalia: Those spend better apparently

Gieselle: Apparently, but here's the truth about like, you know, focusing exclusively on BIPOC folks in business and in anything is that BIPOC folks and I know this because I used to work in TV back in the day. And so like, I understand how, I understand all the things we are, the most loyal people ever.

We support our people like tirelessly, especially Black folks. Like it's like what, you're a Black person, you're doing a thing I'm gonna, I'm gonna work with you. You know? And so, recognizing that, recognizing how loyal we are recognizing that we are the people of global majority in this world, there are more than enough of us was really huge for me.

But I think, I think the thing that it really took for me transparently was recognizing that I'm enough and that like, I was the right kind of Black person to do this work because that was honestly my biggest hurdle. And I think that's the biggest hurdle for a lot of us in being in communities of color, is that we've, we ex exclude we've like inherited these toxic traits in our communities that make us, that make us exclude each other.

Gieselle: And we've systemically been ripped from each other through the prison system, slavery, we can even talk about like immigration and the American dream. Like we've been ripped apart from our communities and culture. And so, it doesn't feel, we don't feel like we fit in with them because we're all kind of this like weird hodgepodge.

Gieselle: But recognizing long story short that I was enough and that my experience was enough, and that people resonated with it that's really what made the big change for me.

Dalia: That is something that I think is a uniquely Black American experience and I could be wrong, but I really haven't heard that message from other folks of color because they did not necessarily experience as much of the deliberate breakdown of community because it's been targeted.

Dalia: It's been targeted and not just during the transatlantic slave trade, but it's also been targeted in more recent history, the deliberate creating of more divisions in the Black community. Yeah. So, we don't even recognize each other sometimes. And we can't seem to be cohesive or find common ground even because I've even lately been watching a TikTok’s where there's this running trend where people are explaining when white folks misunderstand them, they take something literally that's from like African American vernacular English, but I know a fraction of them.

Dalia: And in the past that would've made me feel, oh, this is more proof, I'm not Black enough. I'm not the right kind of Black. Yeah. And because I'm in a multi, well was from a multiethnic household, even though both of my parents are very Black and very into their Blackness, their Blackness was in no way, similar

Dalia: And so, we came out a hodgepodge of their two cultures. And so, I may know random Caribbean expressions that no one's ever heard. And I think, oh, everybody says that. And then not understand. I only learned, oh, you really put your foot in it like two years ago. And I've slowly been using it. And seeing if people can tell, like, I'm waiting to see if I did it right.

Dalia: But it really is a thing when you feel like. especially in public school, I was told, again and again, that I wasn't talking Black enough. Yep. Totally. And that, because I like to go to the library and inline skate that I was enjoying activities that weren't Black enough.

Gieselle:  and I, I, I completely had that experience growing up.

Gieselle: One thing I wanna name for the like non-Black POCs that are listening, just to honor them, is that this experience definitely isn't unique to us as Black folks. Like I've seen this so many times in Latin culture, my husband is from Ecuador, but he's white. And so, there's like this strange, but like, it's like whenever he goes to Latin events, he's always like, it's just this big, like contest of, do you speak Spanish?

Gieselle: Do you speak Spanish well enough? Do you have an accent with your Spanish? Like how long did you live in whatever country you were from? Oh, you're you were born in America. Like there's all this thing. Asian folks have the same thing. South Asian folks. So, I was like, it's, it's all of us in different ways.

Gieselle: The systems that ripped us apart are completely different though, you know?

Dalia: Yeah. That makes me really sad because I wanted to believe that other people -somebody's, you know, feeling a sense of belonging in this country that won't allow them to experience a sense of belonging. I was hoping that somebody was out there saying I know exactly who I am and where I fit in. And, but yeah, I definitely have seen that with like how much do you speak the language, and do you have an accent?

Gieselle: And how much like how much from your culture do you practice in your daily life? I think that comes up a lot in like non-Black spaces. Cause I think like Black culture, at least as a Black American, like our culture is just. It's pervasive. It's in there. Like you practice it. It's also what creates all other culture in America.

Dalia: Absolutely.

Gieselle: But yeah, there's so many elements to do I belong as a person of color. Do I belong in this space? Am I enough? And then like, don't even like, then we, we can't even bring like the intersection of like queerness into it. Right. Cause it's like, yeah, well I'm like Blackity, Black, Black, but I'm queer.

And that does not roll either in a lot of families and not a lot of places.

Dalia: It feels like in the whole country, like not at all. I already had issues with the transphobia and the homophobia and the Black community being another one of the things that would sometimes feel like a reason why I'm not Black enough or the right kind of Black, the Black that people are looking for.

And then when I won't even dignify this man by saying his name, but things that happen in the news cycle, remind me of how pervasive it is. Even when I've started to really make an effort to curate my bubble, I'll find that people who say they accept my queerness and accept me and they have queer family will, when someone, you know, is being super transphobic and saying that somehow Black issues, trans issues are two separate things forgetting that there are plenty of people living at both intersections.

Dalia: And then they'll explain how well I do kind of think, you know, it's tearing down the community or I think people really are choosing, and they're just seeing it too much and it's exposing them. And these are people that I vetted already. So, they said the right things, but then when they get triggered by something that really is part of the Black American cultural experience then they go back to what they were trained to believe their entire childhood, that queerness is deviant. And it's a tool that the man is using to tear us all down.  and that you're not born this way and you can somehow suppress it and you're better than everyone else.

Dalia: If you're straight, basically and you're even better than, you're better than everybody if you're a straight cis Black man and everyone else's needs need to rank below that. And if you do anything to even challenge the authority of a straight Black man, well, of course you got hit of course you maybe got murdered because you're not allowed, and even though no one's gonna say out loud, well, they deserve to be murdered. The messaging is to stop questioning straight Black men.

Gieselle:  and this is, this is, this is like so many layers to what you just said. But I wanna name, like, especially when we're talking about these people that you vetted and that you're like, I like did all the things I was supposed to do, and you're still showing this like deep transphobia and queerphobia.

Gieselle: Right. This is why it's so important for spaces where like, it's just folks who share our marginalized identities, whether it's spaces for BIPOC folks, whether it's spaces for queer BIPOC folks for trans BIPOC folks. Right. That's so important because. That that's why like, even in the most well-meaning of spaces that s**t goes down because people are deeply committed to upholding their privileges, you know, and especially, I mean, I love us as BIPOC folks, but I feel like BIPOC folks are really, but, you know, I will say it's not just BIPOC folks.

Gieselle: Cause this is like white women are the pinnacle of this, where it's like, you hold one marginalized identity and you hold onto that with everything you've got and you refuse to acknowledge like, hey, I've got all these other privileges. So, I wanted to name that piece. There was something else that was coming up for me, but I can't even remember.

Gieselle: So, I'm just gonna let it go. It wasn't that important.

Dalia: that, that is really important to point out. I think, cuz I think when people have a hard time understanding why you would just delete a white person when they follow you, is that because people's brainwash is so deeply ingrained you may intend to be a safe space, but you can't promise that to anybody.

Dalia: And even you can't, when you are holding the same identity, someone else, you may bring your toxic internalized s**t to the table. Yep. But it's so much easier to work on that when that's the intention or you've set the tone for the space and I really appreciate you putting in the work to keep the container safe, which I find a lot of people, they have all these good intentions for inclusion, but they.

Dalia: Either don't have the capacity, the understanding or the desire to keep the container safe. It's not safe to challenge people when it's unsafe and they don't put anything in place to make it less scary or traumatic for you to express a concern. It's like, there was no thought that went into things are going to go sideways because this is what happens when you get more than one person in a room.

Gieselle: well, and this is something that we talked about. We recently talked about a lot in Revolutionary Rising, which is my program for BIPOC folks. Because like community, we had this moment where a lot of people were joining for community specifically. Like I think when you joined the program and most of y'all joined to work with me, and we had a moment where everyone was joining for community, but when, but like the problem with that, not the problem, but like the challenge with that is that as BIPOC folks, like we've talked about, we've been ripped from, we've been ripped from community.

Gieselle: We've all been othered within our communities, unless we fit the very narrow stereotype of what we are supposed to be. And what is the right kind of Black person, Asian person, south Asian person, Latina person. Right. And so, we come into these spaces and even though it's like, okay, I wanted this community.

Gieselle: I wanna believe that these BIPOC folks have me. I'm completely shut down. I'm completely triggered and I'm actually completely unable to be here. And so, something that we are in conversation around in the community is difficulty and how like, that's, it's the thing that I feel like we all are trained to avoid in community, but it's actually the thing that brings us together and really creates community is knowing that, like you said, I can show up, I can say this s**t isn’t working for me.

Gieselle: That was fucked up, like all of the things and knowing that someone's gonna hold that and see it and say, okay, let's, let's make this right for you. But it's hard. It's really, really hard, especially when none of us like. Literally, none of us on this earth, I think, or very few people on this earth really know and know how to do community and have a wide capacity to do community in the way that it was intentionally meant to be.

Dalia: And then it makes me wonder too, are some of our concepts of scaling and like how a business must grow incompatible with community. Because I wondered, I noticed and some other people noticed too, the bigger the group got, the less people were engaging. And I didn't know if it was because they didn't feel safe anymore because it felt like you're in a room, but people keep coming in.

Dalia: And it has nothing to do with who those people are. It's just that they weren't there a few minutes ago. You're just like, whoa, who's that? You know, it's like this natural response or is it that people think once we get to a certain size, well, someone else will comment on it. And I'll just pop in when I need something.

Dalia:  

Gieselle: I think it's so many things. It's so, so many things, and it's been a big learning and process for us over this past year. Me and Olivia, our lead coach, but what I think it really comes down to is safety. Like, even like in the way you said it, right? It's like, oh, there's a new person. It's like your nervous

Gieselle: system's like, oh no, who's there? What is this? And I didn't think of that. And the person who taught me this strategy was spoiler alert, white and not creating safe spaces. Right? Like really just creating. I don't know, spaces, you know, for lack of better words. And so, we had to really look at and reevaluate.

Gieselle: Okay. How are we bringing people in? Who are we bringing in? And how can we bring new people into this space without it feeling like horrible on folks, nervous system and making it even more difficult for them to step into this space? Because the reality is that even if it was like six people for a year, it would still be a hurdle for most people to show up in that space and feel safe.

Gieselle: At least for the first like three to six months, because you just need time to build community. And I think that's one of the hard things, like when you are running a business, when you are building communities do you, you know, something that we've been really thinking about is the word community, and there's so many things you need.

Gieselle: And one of the things is, is time is like, do you actually have the time to build the community in the well-intentioned way that you want to? I don't know. So yeah, long story short, we've been really thinking about that for ourselves in scaling and recognizing that. Yeah, it's harder. My, I was just talking to my coach about this yesterday.

Gieselle: And I still want to find the way to make it bigger. Not for money's sake, but because I genuinely want there to be a beautiful thriving community of women and femmes of color interacting with each other. Right. And supporting each other and loving up on each other, but we've gotta find the way.

Gieselle: And that's just the reality of it is that like, it's gonna be a process to find our way there, but I believe we can get there. And I also have to expand my capacity to hold that as well.

Dalia: That makes sense. It's really interesting to see you open, not totally openly, but pretty openly growing even after you've reached a point of success that so many of us are just trying to get to so what has that been like?

Dalia: Understanding that it's never over. And what, let you know that you had the wrong people in the container. I know there's like five questions and one. And how did you feel safe enough to say there's enough money out there? There's enough people out there for me to set you free, like, not necessarily fire a client, but like set you free to find a table that's right for you at this point in your life and with your growth.

Gieselle: Yeah. So, one thing I will say, like, let's talk about like the firing of folks or not the firing folks, but like, because usually I would say it's mutual. Like it's just, ain't working. And for me as a person, like I, there's no amount of money that's worth working with somebody who's not a fit for the work that I do. Because as a coach specifically, if you don't trust me, if you are not down for the work we're doing, you're not gonna get results. And when you don't get results, it makes me miserable. Because I question if I'm a decent coach, like, or even a good, you know, so for me, it's just not worth it.

Gieselle: And it's not fun at the end of the day, nobody starts a business to do, to be miserable. We, none of us did that. And so, I want it to be fun. I want there to be trust. I want there to be love if that can't be there. And that's not, if you're not either ready for it, if you realize it's not gonna happen with me or whatever happens then, like, I, I want you to go eat just as much as just as much as you wanna go.

Gieselle: So that's the thing for me. And it's a great question about recognizing that, but I, I do wanna bring in like the abundance piece of it, because I think that's something that a lot of folks struggle with, especially when they're in the earlier stages of business, cuz it doesn't always feel abundant. It does not always feel abundant.

Gieselle: And I think the truth is I'm like I'm sitting with this question cause I'm like, when did I get to the point where I knew that.

Gieselle: I think it was when I got to a point where. I knew that even if I didn't generate like a billion manillion dollars, that I could strip everything down and do a workshop and still bring in some leads and bring in some folks who were interested in working with me recognizing that it doesn't have to be big.

Gieselle: It just has to be a couple people. And that something else is coming. And I think if you're, you know, if we're talking to folks who are even newer where you're like, I'm not even at that stage, like, I, I can't build a workshop. I can't bring in a couple people. Like I'm still before that. What I would tell you is that everything's a building block and that's something that I've learned and that, and that's something that I'm trying to lean into.

Gieselle: And so it's like every, no is a building block to a, yes, every silent post is a building block to a post that actually gets like one, like, you know, it's all a building block. And so that's something that I try to look towards as well and believe as well. Alongside the fact that like, we don't have these like, callings because they're not supposed to work. Like, that's just not like the universe, our ancestors, like all the things that give us these callings, they, they are not cruel. And so, it's supposed to work. We've just gotta keep building the blocks and then it will.

Dalia: I was going to ask, like, what's the difference between a revolutionary entrepreneur?

Dalia:  what else we see out there, but I'm hearing some themes already, cuz you definitely don't hear love, fun, and a calling really emphasized like sometimes you hear people throw out calling like kind of in a cavalier way, but in the container, I really felt like. I, I already knew this intuitively at least for me, maybe it's not true for everybody that your business can be an extension of your spiritual practice.

Dalia: And that, that also might be beneficial for someone who is used to the concept of throwing your worries or questioning on your deity or your ancestors. And that sometimes that's the only way you can move forward because you can focus on, well, what can I do? And I'm just gonna trust that the other things will fall into place, which even if you don't believe that you know, that taking action versus doing nothing is gonna get you different results.

Dalia: But for you, what are the main differences between the way you believe if you're really called to do something, you should look at business or can look at business versus what's usually taught to us.

Gieselle: Yeah. I love what you caught that should cause I was like, well, there's no should but for me, revolutionary business

Gieselle: it's all about at, at its like simplest terms, wanting to do things differently. And when I say differently, like wanting to do things in ways that are human, that respect not just your needs as an individual, but the needs of your people. And it's a business that prioritizes people over profits at the end of the day.

Gieselle: I actually think that would truly be it in its simplest of forms. But it can look a lot of different ways. So, for example, you know, one thing that I do in my sales process is my sales process is intentionally I've intentionally slowed it down so much because. I wanna know you deeply, and I want you to know me deeply and I wanna feel really, really good when you come into my space.

Gieselle: And I want us to both feel, to feel on an alignment. Something that I feel is revolutionary is pricing your offers, not just based on like what you can charge people, but what you need and letting there be a limit. A lot of times these days, when I tell folks my one-on-one prices, I mean, they're still like pretty decent.

Gieselle: But a lot of times when I tell folks my one-on-one prices, they're like, oh, I was expecting it to be more. And I was like, I just don't need more. I just don't like, there's no reason to charge you thousands upon thousands of dollars for something that, I mean, I hate, I probably shouldn't say this as a coach, but I just don't think there's coaching.

Gieselle: That's worth a hundred thousand dollars, unless you are a straight up millionaire. Revolutionary business is one that prior, like I said, prioritizes your body. And so, what that means is you leave space for your cycles, your ebbs and your flows, and you do things slowly and you aren't working 24 7.

Gieselle: That's what I think of when I think of revolutionary business. And it's one where at the end of the day, it's really for the collective liberation of folks of color. Like that's, that's what I think about. Like, even if you know, not anyone listening to us is white, but like, even if you're white at the end of the day, like your revolution should start with the, with the collective liberation of folks of color.

Gieselle: That's where everything starts at the end of the day. So that's what I think of when I think of when I think of revolutionary business.

Dalia: Oh, I love that. And we would probably be surprised because that was something that I think I learned in the program, but also had reinforced by white friends who said, they have to be told don't come in for them to, for it to even occur to them that maybe not all spaces are for them.

Dalia: Totally. So, they said, they would absolutely still go into a conference that says African American, blah, blah. They said it wouldn't even occur to them that maybe they're not supposed to go in there. And so, we may very well have a lot of white listeners, you know, because luckily for them they've been socialized to feel welcome everywhere they go.

Dalia: Just so y'all know that it's not a universal experience. And all I can say is, must be nice, but it's interesting how

Gieselle: like literally kicking my feet in joy at that must be nice

Dalia: but it has been interesting starting to accept more how much like you said, everything is a building block and how much of our experiences, while of course you don't wanna suffer for the sake of suffering.

Dalia: But it is interesting how much, if you survive and experience, it is a catalyst for growth. And that even though systemic oppression blows and racism sucks, it does help you build skills. And it creates an opportunity for you to get to know yourself in a way that people are not likely to experience if their existence isn't constantly challenged. And if their worth isn't constantly challenged. But the thing is, you get to opt out of doing that. Like you can just suffer and not grow. And sometimes depending on your trauma, that is where people hang out. And that's been one of my biggest challenges with wanting to work with people who have a lot of racialized trauma or who have a lot of trauma around gender identity and community is some people are in a place, like you said, where they're totally shut down. They can't connect. And so, you show up and you do things and all the people that come forward don't have the trauma that you were seeking to help them with and you're like, is anybody listening?

Dalia: So, was there ever a point in your work where you started to wonder, is this going to work? Should I give up or should I pivot?

Gieselle: Every day literally every day. I won't say it's a rational thought. I think that that hasn't been a rational thought for me in a really long time. But I actually did do a little bit of a pivot this year.

Gieselle: Because for the past year, I've been speaking specifically to revolutionary business for folks of color. And then I did this small pivot to expand the message for like all change makers, all revolutionaries. And I did that and it was like crickets, absolute crickets. And I was like, okay,

Gieselle: something funky is happening here. It also didn't feel quite right to me if I'm like looking back at it. It just, I knew here's what I knew about my work is that at the end of the day, what I, what I love about the work is not what context and what, like situation we're talking about, talking about. It is like, I love working with great BIPOC folks.

Gieselle: And so, and I want this work to impact as many incredible BIPOC folks who are ready for it and need it as it can be. So that's why I made that. Like I opened it up for a little bit and then after having that experience of like, okay, thriving stuff, like it's kind of radio silence, like not fully working, it's not feeling fully aligned.

Gieselle: That's when I came back to, okay, its still revolutionary business, but it's just a different level. It's people who are even who are more resourced, not resourced. And when I say resourced, I mean resourced in their somatic capacity and their like ability to do the work and because we can go deeper and further.

Gieselle: And because, you know, as I'm working with leaders, like you talked about earlier, it ripples. And so, the more impact I make with leaders, the more they're gonna go out into their individual revolutions and be able to serve more, more, more and more. Long story short, I think about pivoting every day.

Gieselle: Not right now, right now. I'm like, but I wonder I'm like, I don't know, is I, is anything happening even though I know it's just the crazy space. I do know that for myself.

Dalia: And did it feel scary to feel like, oh, I'm, niching down even more to people who clearly have the capacity. It makes sense if there were people in the container that weren't ready for it yet, but I would imagine it would also feel like ekk now I'm narrowing in even more.

Gieselle: It feels really scary and really vulnerable. Every time you make a change in your business, there's no place where you're going to get. If you are someone where you've been generating income, even if you're not generating it at the level, you want to, you know, that when push comes to shove, you'll be able to generate some income.

Gieselle: So, it's less scary for me because I know that my business could really, truly, never die. I mean, maybe like I'm gonna knock on this bamboo, what I've got over here. but. I have the skill sets to revive it if something were funky were to happen but making that change feels really vulnerable and putting out my new season of my podcast, it's all around revolutionary leadership and it, it, it is interesting.

Gieselle: You know, I know I have those revolutionary leaders in my audience. I know so many of my folks wanna be those revolutionary leaders as well. And so, it's just about me believing, and this is really at the end of the day, this is all of it. And this is what brought me to serving BIPOC folks. This is what brought me to serving BIPOC folks in that way.

Gieselle: It's just about believing that if you have the calling for it, if you feel it, if it feels right to you, it's right. And even if you don't fully believe it in the moment, even if your head is like, should we jump ship every single day? It's about knowing like, no, I'm still gonna like, hold my feet to the fire because I know that this is what is right.

Gieselle: And this is what's meant for me. I just have to wait for it to actually come to fruition.

Dalia: How do you get back to that place when you're in a position where you feel like you're doubting? There's a lot of people out there who are so good at communicating what they do.  and which is basically marketing that they know, Hey, I can just, you know, Put up a tent somewhere and I can sell some things and there's a lot of people who don't have that and they don't have that confidence, but business comes to you in different ways and that's okay too.

Dalia: But what do you do when you can't seem to reconnect to that belief that, oh, this was an actual calling. How do you stay connected to that? Mm

Gieselle: that's a great question. I tap into like, something that I really work to do every day is like to tap into some kind of divination tool or something that like does ground me in my spirituality.

Gieselle: So, like right now I'm playing with tarot. I'm like getting to know the tarot again. And so, I'm pulling tarot cards or some things that like, honestly, the most important thing for me, like aside from like the spirituality, cause even that sometimes like can't fully ground me is having space held for me where I can name all of the fears and be reoriented and shown different perspectives. And so, for me, coaching is really helpful. I know that's like such a coach thing to say, but it's the truth is that like, I wouldn't be able to do like all of the things that I've done in my business, all of the shifts and changes and pivots and growth that I've had would never have happened without having like a really good coach.

Gieselle: And when I'm talking about coaching, I'm not talking about people who just like showed up one day and said that there are coach, like I'm talking about like real skilled coaches who can hold space powerfully, who aren't trying to tell you what to do, but really understand the sole job of a coach, a true coach is to ground you back into that knowing and that feeling.

Gieselle: So, someone that can bring you back there even more powerfully than you might be able to in that moment that's, that's been like the most helpful thing for me is so even if you're like, I'm not resourced enough to have a coach right now, having someone who it is capable of supporting you in a way where they step aside.

Gieselle: And it's just about you, because I think that's the problem with relying on friends and family and stuff is that you always have energetic connection, like even with a coach, right. But it's, it's like their interests are somehow still intertwined with yours when you are talking to a friend or a family member.

Gieselle: So, if you have someone who's able to like step back and be like, I literally don't matter here and you can feel safe just like, and we'll just dance with it from your space, then that can work too.

Dalia: Yeah, it's really tricky learning how so I am in the process. I've already done my 125 hours, but I have not done all the coaching practice hours that I need to finish my PCC, but I should be done by this summer.

Gieselle: Look at you go.

Dalia: But it's been interesting seeing in the training, the biggest problem that I needed to suppress was the desire to offer a fix. When I felt like I knew exactly what they should do and how often they had an answer. That was not my answer. That was the perfect answer for them.  and how, even in the practice sessions.

Dalia: I might say what I hear you saying is, and there's one word that I added that changes the tone that they're like, well, I don't really think it's that, but it reflects how I perceive their problem.  and usually it's because I don't relate to it. And I'm like, I'm imagining that this is how people must feel when they have these kinds of problems.

Dalia: Or it could be that I relate to it so much that I'm projecting. It's just been interesting. Practicing, listening just to reflect back to the person what they're saying and what they actually want, not to help them with anything.

Gieselle: It's so rare that we get that in this world. And I feel like that's so often all we crave at the end of the day, right.

Is someone to see us and to it's really just for someone to see us. And that's 99% of what coaching is and being, and I wanna like take it outta the context of coaching and like being truly supported is right. It's like knowing that someone sees you and they're with you. It's like, if you're an, if you're sobbing, it's like, I don't have to sob, but like I'm here.

Or if you're elated, it's like, I'm also there. But it's hard. It's hard to do because we're so used to, like, I'm sure you, you notice that someone who's like getting their PCC, but even as like a friend and an individual, right. It's like, oh no, this person's got something going on. How do I fix it? I'm like, what do I do?

Dalia: Absolutely. And I've become more aware of when I want to fix it. Or I wanna bring in all this previous knowledge I have about the friend. And tell them, like I, in this case, do know what's right for you because I've known you for like 30 years . And trying to understand that that still doesn't make me the authority on their life. They are the authority. And the best thing I could do for them as a friend is try and help them see that they are the authority , but usually in reality these days, I'm like, I'm gonna tell you what to do first. And then I'm gonna ask you, like, what do you think you really wanna do? It's just so hard.

Dalia: you're so to turn it off, I'm like, you know, I'm gonna be right. It can take years, but you'll come back. but the, the true training has been so helpful. But one thing I did wonder about is how did you survive coaching training and all the different containers you've been in that were not made for people of color.

And come out with a skillset that is so perfectly tailored for folks of color.

Gieselle: Yeah. That's a really great question. So, I will say I'll be like completely honest where my journey to like decolonizing and like being where I'm at, it's pretty, fairly recent. Like it was like a deep dive and like a going straight, to the deep end.

Gieselle: But when I did my coach training, I can't remember what year years are gone to me, but like four or five years, five years ago, I think at this point. I was not bothered by being in fully white spaces yet because I was so used to it. And we were still at that point in society where like, I think we were still in that point where everyone was pretending like life was post racial, like Obama was president and like, like it's all good.

Gieselle: And, you know, I was just starting to get, I had actually just had my first real life experience where I genuinely felt like my success was impacted by being Black, where I had never well, I will say I had never felt like I had that experience before. Like I feel like I was lucky for the most part.

Gieselle: And I still found where I was able to go despite being Black. That being said, I really like these days, I really hate when people say that. Cause I'm like, yeah, yeah, right like Blackness, like never came into play in your success.

Dalia: Well, what's so funny is the conditioning is so good in some areas. That you don't know, you don't know exactly you and you may end up doing the same things as your white peers. But what you don't know is how much more you had to do to get it. Exactly. Cause I even look back at what I've had to do for certain credentials.  and I never, in a million years would've thought to go to the professor and say, I'm just overwhelmed.

And they say, don't worry about it. Or you can turn in a fraction of it. Or you can turn everything in late with no penalty. I did not know these things were a thing and then they start being revealed and I'm like, oh, I didn't even know how differently I was being treated.

Dalia: Or when people only network with their white students, they don't announce that they're going to network with them. You know? So, it's interesting how sometimes you may not have felt it or noticed it, but definitely doesn't mean it didn't happen, but at least you didn't lose sleep over it.

Gieselle: I didn't get sleep over it for sure.

Gieselle: And so that was like my initial coach training. So, like, I didn't. So, like then I was like, oh, I don't know. Like, but I was really lucky. And, and when I say lucky, I mean, like it's obvious in retrospect that the majority of my clients this entire time have been folks of color. So like, to this day, if you get on a sales call with me and you don't tell me your like racial or ethnic identity, I mean, I can't go like as granular as country, but I can typically tell you like, okay, you are you've been an American for a few generations, one generation you are an immigrant, you are Latina, you are Asian, you are south Asian.

Gieselle: Cuz like I just worked with that many people and I've seen like the typical, like there are typical things that come from each culture. And they manifest in different ways. So that's what really created my experience was just doing the work and doing it with the people.

Gieselle: But I have had experiences where I didn't survive the container. And one of those was the precursor to creating. My to like creating my work in the shape that it is now where like long story short, I was doing this leadership program, which it's one of those things whereas a person of color, I look back at that leadership program and I'm like, so mad that it's so exclusive because it was great.

Gieselle: But it was, it was my first experience being in a white space and feeling suffocated by whiteness. Like, I literally felt like I was losing my mind. And I remember my husband he's very rarely like actually great with these things. Juan is racially white, ethnically Latino, but it's, he's like very, he's very rarely good with these things.

Gieselle: And he very rarely can like actually relate to my experience as a person of color. Cuz he is white, he reads is white. And so, but I like called him crying and I was like, I'm losing my mind out here. It didn't help that this program had, this program was one of those many like white spiritual programs where it had borrowed from a lot of different cultures.

Gieselle: And they just felt like if they had the right intention that we should be able to do all of the things. And people had started talking about race because because they were using the word tribe and they refused to like, just let it go. Why white people insist on keeping words that aren't theirs, it never ceases to amaze me.

Gieselle: Like I just don't understand it at all.

Dalia: That's so interesting, cuz I was gonna ask like how was it suffocating you?

Gieselle: So yeah, it was like, we were constantly having conversations about race that the people of color had to carry. And like I, as the sole Black person, there's a difference right in what you carry because as the Black person, everyone turns to you first around these things and then there's everyone else. And in the space, everyone only wanted to talk to me about racial things sometimes. Like we did this exercise, oh my God, this exercise. So, we did this exercise, which I actually think is a really beautiful exercise, but it's basically like assuming that your thoughts around people like your judgments around people and how they feel about you are probably incorrect.

Gieselle: So, you clear it, you just say like, Hey, I feel like you think I might be talking too much and it's like, they don't need to respond. They don't need to do anything cuz you know, it's all about you. It's all in your head. Right. And you just release it. But everyone's the teachers literally said do not go up to Gieselle and every time say, say something about race.

Gieselle: like, they literally said that and 90% of people still came up and did it anyways, did it anyways thinking they were special little butterfly.

Dalia: That's so interesting. Like that goes back to it almost being impossible to keep certain environments just are not going to be safe. They're inherently unsafe.

Dalia: So maybe the people who led it, maybe the people on stage, if it had just been you and them, it would've been fine. But all these other random, oh,

Gieselle: not even them. not even that the woman who led it, white woman teared me the first day. And, and we talked about holding onto your marginalized identities, she's Jewish.

Gieselle: And so she was like very much holding onto the like marginalization that Jewish people feel and like incapable of seeing like her impact in other ways .

Gieselle: So, yeah, it, it was inherently unsafe and it was something that I didn't know going in, but it's known about this program. I think there are so many spaces that we all know, like I think about MFA programs sometimes I think about getting my MFA. I'm like nonfiction or fiction. And, but I'm not willing to intentionally go into unsafe spaces anymore. But we, we do that all the time as folks of color.

Gieselle: We intentionally step in unsafe spaces because we wanna get that information. We wanna get the knowledge and the only way to get it, sometimes it feels like is to make yourself on

Dalia: Set yourself on fire. Yeah. That is interesting because in the end, even when you're not recognizing that what's happening to you is unfair and there's a disparity there, the stress that you carry and how hard just thinking about how much harder somebody has to work when every time they go into a space, they feel unsafe.

Versus if you come in the space and you feel like totally at home and comfortable, just the amount of emotional and cognitive energy that goes into learning and staying on alert.

Gieselle: Absolutely. Well, and when we talk about the way that, like our nervous system functions and our brain functions, when you are at alert, you don't have access to the higher parts of your brain that can process information, analyze information, like and so it, it really is impactful.

Gieselle: It really is a detriment because you are not physically capable of taking in the same amount of information as someone who feels a hundred percent safe. And like, this is why I do my work. Because if you don't feel safe in the places where you're being supported, you can't actually get the support you need.

Gieselle: Like you're only getting a percentage of it because you're like trying to navigate being in a space instead of just actually allowing yourself to let go and be.

Dalia: That resonates so much. And that really explains how you can go into healing space and get virtually nothing out of it. Because the space itself was not safe.

Dalia: Like I went into a container that a white friend recommended and they said, oh, he's so great. He's so intersectional. He's so progressive. So this is another person who had multiple marginalized identities, but still cis white man  . And I will say he did feel like a very safe person, but his container, you can't control these people.

Dalia: No one said anything that was blatantly problematic, but I only went to one live meeting. Cause I was like, I am too tired to even deal with people, treating me like seeing me is some kind of event, you know, totally or recommending other Black resources to me when I didn't ask them for that. Like, people can't conceive of how peculiar that feels.

Dalia: When somebody, you meet someone, you don't know them from Adam and they're not a person of color. And they're like, oh, you're this color. Here's this resource. What makes you think I need you to come rescue me? What makes you think you're an expert on what kind of community I need?

Dalia: And did I ask you? I don't know you like that. What makes you think I take referrals from just anybody? And that's another thing that I feel like is unique maybe not across the board, but it's a necessary function of being in a country that's always like trying to kill you or make you feel like s**t is that, you know, better than to just take referrals from just anybody.

Dalia: Like you don't know this person and they don't have the same lived experience as you for all I know she just saw a flyer somewhere or I could show up and they could, it could be 100% hoteps all the way through everybody transphobic and bananas, and to just not know that you really just shouldn't be offering all this information, willy nilly to people of color.

Dalia: Who said we would respond to that? So that was just enough for me to feel like, oh, well, I'm a freak show here. And everyone is aware of my color and no one's just seeing me as a person. So these other people, you're just meeting a person. And when you are meeting me, all you're seeing is this is a Black person.

Dalia: And you're trying to think about what you're saying or you're trying to do the right thing. It just felt hella awkward. And I was like, I don't have time for this s**t.

Gieselle: And this is like the problem. Yes. I, number one, I see you. I completely see you and like, this is the problem, right? Because it's not that we don't wanna be seen as Black or whatever we are.

Gieselle: It's like we wanna be seen in all of our identities and we don't want to be special or fetishized or marginalized because of them. And there's so very few people in very few spaces that are capable of holding both. I see you in the beauty of your identities and also you're still just a person than me.

You know, like you're still just a regular degular person and those get to coexist and yeah, it's really hard to find that. And that's where I think we see a lot of folks. I see so many folks of color being like, I don't want people to see me as Black. I don't want them to see me as this thing first.

Gieselle: It, and it's like, well, no, like, I think you do. like, I think you want them to like, acknowledge who you are because you know, when it comes to like, I, I feel like racial identity and I think, yeah, well, I'll, I'll just stick with racial identity cuz that's where I'm most well versed, but it's like, it's one of the most important identities to you.

If not the most important identity to you, cuz there's so much culture and love and joy baked into that.

Dalia: Most people really take issue with people saying they're colorblind because , that reads as I refuse to acknowledge your cultural distinctness,  in any way, I am not capable of celebrating that you have a culture.

And that's a problem as well  and acting like, oh, I'm gonna give you permission to assimilate is some kind of a gift doesn't vibe with me. But I would like to be seen as like a whole ass person, like, yes, I am Black. And guess what? There's something that comes after that.  but people are so used to this really flattened image of anyone.

Dalia: Who's not like them.  that they don't always understand. This is a complete person. This is not a caricature. You don't know anything about me if all you've done is look at me. You literally don't know anything about me. You wouldn't look at somebody white and think, oh, you know, I know most likely where they live, how much money they make, but other people make all these assumptions.

Dalia: And all they've done is look at you. And they're convinced that they don't have a problem. And in a lot of these containers, you can't convince them of otherwise.  . So when did your interest in leadership become really clear for you? And I know you mentioned that because you can have the greatest impact with people who are leaders.

Dalia: What does that even mean to you? Who is a leader?

Dalia: That's

Gieselle: such a good question. Everyone's a leader first and foremost. I mean, we really are, right. Like, even if you're just leading yourself, like, first of all, leading yourself, isn't just leading yourself because the way that you show up does impact other people and the way that they show up.

Gieselle: But sometimes leadership is like being a supporter. Sometimes leadership is being a mother sometimes, or a parent. Sometimes leadership is just being a sibling or a friend or the person who says, Hey, let's get pizza tonight. You know? So I, I wanna say that that leadership is everyone. And also what I.

Gieselle: The reason why I decided to lean into revolutionary leadership. And the definition that I am leaning towards with it, which is folks who have been on this train, right? They're on a decolonial train. They've been UNlearning. They've been doing all the things. They're in the process of creating an impact.

Gieselle: They have a revolution that they likely are already leading. The reason why I decided to work with them is cuz I wanted to . Oh, I

Dalia: love that answer. That's not what I expected.

Gieselle: It's and I will say it just feels right. To me, it really, I think something for me, because I think at the end of the day leaders, the leaders that I'm most excited to work with are coaches, healers, guides, like people who are really in the, in the trenches serving 24 7, or who have some kind of like deeper calling.

Gieselle: I've always been fo been focused on people who have a calling. So like creatives, I love working with creatives as well. I, I completely forgot what I wanted to say. So I don't know. It's a half thought.

Dalia: I, I was thinking the other day, like something I realized, well, a friend helped me realize, and I think I was afraid to step into this or accept it is that the work that I do also is not for beginners. Yes, but because of my fear of there not being enough people or my fear of nieching down too much,  or really having a laser focus that it would hurt me.

Dalia:  I kept accepting people who were nowhere near ready. Yes. Like if you haven't done any healing work, I'm not for you.  . If you have no concept of the fact that you can internalize messaging, that doesn't serve you, that  works an opposition to your identities, then we're not ready to work together.

Dalia: If I'm having to convince you that it's safe to start trusting your body, we're not ready for each other. Like if we're not, you are at the point where you believe it, but you're trying to get there. You have some concept of it and you're looking for an opportunity to do deeper work, then we're ready. Yep.

Dalia: But it's just been tricky for me to acknowledge too, because of how marketing generally works or is presented to people what I am always hearing about is like how to just speak to pain points. And I think the pain points for somebody who's deeper in the work is gonna be different. And it probably won't sound as, I don't wanna say dramatic, but  the person might not even recognize it as a problem.

Gieselle: Yes, absolutely. Because you've already done healing work. Right. And like, I mean, I always try to stay away from pain points in general because like it's manipulative and it's based in like sales psychology, which is like just manipulating our brain. Really when you're working with someone who isn't a beginner.

Gieselle: And I think that's really what I, what made me want to move more towards leaders and people who like already have this language are already thinking about these things. They're like thinking deeply. And we're just exploring in a deeper way. Same as you is that it's just more fun. It's just more fun.

Gieselle: And they're actually ready for the work that you're capable of doing and that you wanna do with people. But what you're getting to expand them into is something that I think as folks of color, we don't get to expand into enough, which is just having more, like more than enough. You know, I think it's tough with like both of the kinds of works that we do, cuz it's not just like, oh, well I'm gonna go make you like $10,000 in one day.

Gieselle: And like for your work, because you're doing wellness in a decolonized way, you might not lose weight or you might not do this thing that that you think you want, it's not the sexy thing. And also it's allowing you to expand into this moreness this space that we very rarely allow ourselves to even dream of, because it feels so hard to access as a person of color.

Gieselle: We're always just fighting for enough. We're fighting for the scraps, the thought of having abundance and more, it's hard for us, especially as revolutionaries where, I mean, we could even talk about the concept of more it's like, well, how much is too much and then when are we hoarding and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, this it's this really difficult concept for us that comes into play..

Dalia: Yeah, that brings up, this is one of my big questions. How do you reconcile the fact that some people feel like everything has to be accessible to everyone? And the people who will feel kind of like butt hurt because it's for advanced people or it's for people who have more resources and the people who feel like thriving rates, shouldn't be a thing.

I was listening to something Sonya Renee Taylor was explaining was that she's not trying to be out in these streets, starving, you know, dying with an unmarked grave or doing some Zora Neale Hurston type of s**t. Like we are not, you don't have to do that. But the criticism that comes at you, especially if you're assigned female at birth, if you are not like, Hey, I just wanna bleed and give, give, give, give, give, I don't need anything.

Dalia: I'm just gonna eat s**t and say, thank you. Like, how do you reconcile the part of you that does want to help  and the part of you that you were not called to do entry level s**t. and like, do you explain that to people or do you just let it go? You just say like, Hey, there's a bunch of tables out there go find another one. Like, how do you

Gieselle: handle that?

Gieselle: Well I'll say first and foremost that I do not have the kind of personality where people feel comfortable stepping to me in that kind of way, like in any way, shape or form. So I'd never worry about someone actually saying that to my face, but to, for people who are thinking that, you know, I know that in my work, cuz people tell me all the time, like I have fundamentally shifted the way that people think just from my free content and just from the emails I sent and the Instagram posts I make in my Facebook group, like I'm constantly educating there, perspective shifting there.

Gieselle: And there is so much available to you and so much growth available to you if you just hang out in my world. Which I'm always shocked by because because like at the end of the day, like I know that the real juice is in the actual coaching and then at least that's how I've always felt. Right. But there are so many people who tell me, like, I think about this thing completely differently because of these emails or this, that, so that's what I say is that like, my work is a hundred percent accessible.

Gieselle: If you follow me for free, if you go to my stuff there's an abundance of information for you to sit with to process, like, sure you're not getting the like coaching side of it, but for, it's not, it's also, that's not always necessary for every single person. Like some people really just need to hear something a different way.

Gieselle: And then it just like changes everything for you. And the last thing I would say to anyone who's like coming at me with that, is that what are you doing, policing what I do with my money and my and my life. Like, I am not a billionaire. I think that there's a really interesting societal, like investigation we can do here.

Gieselle: Right. Because we actually so very rarely interrogate billionaires around this kind of thing. We are just like, well, they worked really hard

Dalia: and they

Gieselle: deserve it. They're a genius. And then us like the people who are out here doing like the real work to help liberate people were expected to bleed and to do it happily.

Gieselle: And that's just an, I, I would really tell anyone like, If you're gonna be like coming for somebody, go to Jeff Bezos, don't be stepping to me talking about how I should charge $1. And you're still ordering s**t off of amazon.com. Okay.

Dalia: Yeah, that really says something because you'll hear people even argue like, well, the more money you send in that person's direction is gonna generate jobs.

Well, who says that I wouldn't be a good steward of that money. Cause so there's multiple layers there. What makes you think the money isn't better off in my hands than someone else. And why would you want me to have to work insane hours at a job that supports me so that I can keep bleeding for you doing labor for free, like sure.

Dalia: It's a labor of love, even podcasting  but the key word there is labor.

Gieselle: well, and this like comes all, it, it comes back to all of our relationships with capitalism, right? It's we all are so used to living in a system where we're supposed to work 24 7, and we're supposed to exploit ourselves for someone else's gain that.

Gieselle: It feels right to people and it feels it, well, let me rephrase this. It feels wrong to people when you honor yourself and your needs, that is actually like, feels wrong in like a problem to them. And so that's the real issue around it is that there's some deep internalized capitalism that anyone who's questioning that really needs to look at.

Gieselle: And question, if they're coming to any person of color questioning what they're charging and they're thriving because we are all owed so much more than we could ever get in this lifetime. I don't know, maybe not Oprah. Like she's good, but but everyone, but everyone else, like, no, we we've got more than enough coming to us.

Gieselle: There is, we got more than enough generations of wealth that we deserve. And if we want it, I'm not someone where I'm like out here trying to generate tons of generational wealth or things like that. That's not really what I care about at the end of the day. But if that is what you care about, and that's something that you're wanting for yourself, I support you.

Gieselle: And I love you because you deserve that thriving. And it's been stripped of us for so long. Get it while, get it in this lifetime. If it feels right for you.

Dalia: I love the freedom that you give people to find their own solutions and understand that the answer might not be right for everybody because we know it in general, the way things are set up now it's predatory.

Dalia: Yep. People aren't prioritized, but there are a lot of people out there acting like, well, you need to burn it all down and you shouldn't accept money for anything. And you should just like live under bridge. Well, why are you out here trying to take people's freedom of choice away from them to decide like, do I wanna try and thrive?

Dalia: Do I feel like I can do more if I make sure my revolution is sustainable and maybe your revolution looks different and we don't have to put that on other people. And that's, to me, that's also a sign of really quality, authentic coaching is that you give people more choices, not less.

Gieselle: I completely agree.

Gieselle: You know, my thing with all of this and with, with everything in life, not just around this money piece of it is that we're all on different stages of the journey. We're all in different places. It's like when we talk about who we work with, right? Like someone's at this beginning space, there's no, nothing wrong with that.

Gieselle: I'm just not for them. Right. When it comes to, you know, an being anti-capitalist and your feelings around money, Again, we're in different spaces. We have different traumas, different lived experiences. Who am I to say, where you should be? You're where you're ready to be and where you're supposed to be in this moment.

Gieselle: If you're meant to get to this other place, you'll get there. If you aren't, you aren't and that's okay. Like I do not believe that I am the pinnacle of information of inclusion of like all of the things I'm working on it. It's something that I'm constantly thinking about. But at the end of the day, I'm at the beginning of my journey still in so many ways, I think we all are and I'm gonna grow, I'm gonna shift and I'm gonna look back as s**t I'm doing now and be like, how was I doing that? Oh my God, I could die just thinking about it. And that, that gets to be okay. And where I'm at, right.

Dalia: Ooh. I love that. Where can everybody find you? Where's the best place to catch you on these internet

Gieselle: streets

Gieselle: So you can find me over on Instagram. I'm just, I keep it simple. I'm Gieselle Allen over there, but make sure you don't miss that first E after the I and Gieselle or else you will miss me. I'm also, if you are a fan of podcasts, I've got the Revolutionary Rising podcast. It's over well, anywhere where you listen to podcast . You can also go to my website and hang out with me there, get on my newsletter. My newsletter is like the most reliable place to hang out with me because I will disappear like really quickly from everywhere else. But I will hang out on my email list until the day I die.

Gieselle: So yeah.

Dalia: Yeah. We've seen it happen. We've seen it happen. If there was one thing that you could say, as we wrap up and everyone would understand it, internalize it, believe it for the rest of their lives, what would it be? Hmm.

Gieselle: You are important. You are wanted and you are loved. That's it. And if you don't believe those things right now, it's not because it's not true.

Gieselle: It's because you might be surrounded by the wrong people, or you might be in a space where you have some healing to do and both of those are okay. And you'll get there.

Dalia: I love that. Thank you so much for coming on.

Gieselle: Thank you for having me. It's been such a fun conversation.

I needed to hear so much of this conversation, the concept of not being able to be all things to all people and that not only being okay but being natural and by design, maybe you were called to do something very specific. We don't need to apologize or continually question what our intuition is telling us, learning to trust what you want, learning to trust that you also know what you need is really a process. It is just amazing to see how often we are, the ones that hold the answer to questions that have been plaguing us for years. Working with a great coach is so helpful in getting that clarity and learning that you can trust your gut. You can trust your body.

You can trust your wants and desires. It sounds so simple. But after a literal lifetime of being socialized to question everything that comes naturally to you it really isn't that simple. And it isn't something that's gonna happen in just a moment when you're growing, there's always gonna be ebbs and flows. There will be times when you feel like you're making tremendous progress with self-acceptance and you're moving forward. And then there will be times when you feel like you've taken a few steps back and that is okay. That's just how it goes. So it's so helpful to see someone who's done so much growing share that the growth process is not over and it continues and that's a good thing it isn't something that we have to feel shame or distress over.

If you are really feeling these themes of liberation and self-trust, then Decolonizing Wellness is 100% for you. Check out the links in the show notes and order your copy now, this is the book that I needed no other self-help bod-pos book I read, addressed my intersectional identities. As a queer gender fluid pansexual person, Black, raised in the south, assigned female at birth, I didn't see anything out there that took those identities into consideration when talking about the healing that has to occur for you to fully feel at home in your body and for you to be able to trust that you know how to feed yourself, you know, how to care for yourself. After reading this book, you'll have the tools. Practical tangible tools that you need to really get started on internalizing and embodying self trust and self-acceptance when it comes to wellness and feeding yourself.

So, make sure you order it, get a copy for your friends and be sure to post if you love it. I absolutely adore public speaking, and I'm so excited to start talking about the themes that I really dug into in the book all over the place. If you are with a group or an organization that you feel like could really use that message, please reach out to me so we can get you on the calendar. Alight, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for joining me. I will see you next time.

Kris Henry (they/them/theirs) is a radical Jamaican nonbinary creative, an Obeah enby, and an Aborisha in the Lukumì tradition. Kris creates art in many forms—centering their twerk as a spiritual safe space for Black queer, trans and intersex folx. They seek to create authentically empowering, ancestrally connected healing experiences that bring a sense of agency and sovereignty back to the historically marginalized from the inside out. Kris’ first published project is a collection of poetry titled “Love LETTERS”, and their second project, Warri(O)racle, is an online chapbook.

Their latest creative baby is The Spiritual Abolitionist Oracle Deck: a radical, Black and queer centered divination tool to affirm the spiritual safety and wellness of Black queer, trans and intersex folx. You can find their projects at www.thespiritualabolitionist.com and follow them on Instagram @kriswithakcreates and @thespiritualabolitionist to see what they’re up to next.

This episode we discuss

🏳‍🌈Connecting with your ancestors and trancestors

🏳‍🌈Honoring our queer ancestors with visibility

🏳‍🌈Gender in the spirit world

🏳‍🌈Protecting your spiritual energy

Episode Resources

www.daliakinsey.com

Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

www.thespiritualabolitionist.com

This episode is too good to keep all to yourself.

Hello. Welcome to another episode of body liberation for all. I'm your host, Dalia Kinsey your Black, queer, holistic registered dietitian and the author of Decolonizing Wellness A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation.

Like I've covered on the show before and like I covered the book, healing, growth, there's no end to it. If you are a curious person, if you are a person who's really interested in being as free as possible, you know there is no end point. As soon as you dig in deep and heal one area of your life, another layer appears. It's never over.

And something that I have been working on a lot lately is my relationship with spirituality and my reluctance to openly talk about the spiritual traditions that I feel most closely tied to and realizing that I have been socialized/ colonized to normalize Christian beliefs and to not think it's strange when someone believes wholeheartedly in the rapture or in the second coming of Christ, all of that seems perfectly normal. And all the time in the United States, you see people who are professionals, who are academics, blending their Christian belief system and the work that they do all the time, you see therapists doing their work through a Christian lens. And I don't often find people criticizing that, but that may also be because I'm in Georgia.

That said I've been taking a closer look at my reluctance to dig in, to traditional African spirituality in a public way and questioning why do I think that people may see me as less professional if I openly share my spiritual beliefs?

What are the assumptions that I'm making? What are the assumptions that I have internalized that make it seem complex to me, to both be a person who believes in science and a person who believes in ancestor veneration? Why does it seem like those two things don't go together? Where does that come from? And what can I do to uproot those beliefs from my own consciousness?

So, this conversation is coming from a bit of a vulnerable place because it's something I'm still working through. And I know that at some point I'll face that challenge of not feeling compelled to defend my spiritual beliefs or to counter. Any ignorant statements that imply the ancestor veneration is somehow more primitive than Christianity or somehow less logical than Christianity.

Now for any of the atheist fam that's listening. I am sure that it all seems maybe about the same level of illogical. But I will say you were warned that my approach is holistic mind, body, spirit.

And this episode, we're leaning heavily into the spirit aspect of that. I do think it is very important for your wellness to have a view to have a belief system that supports who you are as a full person.

One of the things that is most nourishing about the traditions I've been exploring lately is that they don't have an element of proselytization. So, you are free to believe whatever affirms you and whatever feels good for you. And that doesn't affect me, and it doesn't have to affect my belief system.

That is an enormous departure from the form of Christianity that I practiced in my youth. But it is a deeply liberating approach to spirituality. So, there's room for everyone. And if you already know in your gut, this episode is not for you.

Then I'll see you on the 15th. Today am joined by Kris Henry.

Kris is a spiritualist and they identify as an Obeah ENBY and an Olorisha in the Lukumi tradition. So, a lot of the insights that Kris brings us today are coming through that lens. You have to check out their site, www.thespiritualabolitionist.com If you don't immediately fall in love when you see them using twerk in place of work throughout the branding of the site and centering Black queer trans and intersex folks, I don't understand you. They are a fascinating person their book of poetry, entitled love letters, I absolutely love, and I've gotten so much value out of there oracle deck. I love using oracle decks, tarot decks as journaling prompts so that I can really connect to my own will whenever I'm at a crossroads.

I've started working with Kris myself and the more I honor ancestral practices, the more empowered I feel in the present tense.

I deeply resonate with their goal to create authentically empowering ancestrally connected healing practices that bring a sense of agency and sovereignty back to the historically marginalized from the inside out. Doesn't that just hit you in the heart? Their work is beautiful. This conversation was lovely.

Let's get into it

Body Liberation for All Theme

Yeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.

It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

Dalia: Thanks for coming on the show today, Kris.

Kris: Thank you for having me.

Dalia: I'm so excited.

I got my oracle card deck. So originally this is how we met. I saw you posted something on Facebook about your deck pre-sales being ready to go live and what really just grabbed my attention was that it's specifically from the perspective of a queer nonbinary Black person. And how many times is that even an option? Because I know even when I was just looking for a tarot deck or an oracle deck actually made by a Black person, I couldn't find, but a few. And there were others out there where they had Black characters depicted on the card, but it was clearly like exactly the same images from something else.

I don't know if you've ever tried to buy a Black Santa, but anybody who has knows the struggle. So sometimes you'll find a quote unquote, Black Santa, but it is the white Santa who's been painted. And sometimes it even has the audacity to chip before Christmas is over. So, it was the same thing. Some of these, I was like, all y'all did was paint these same characters, Black or even worse.

I saw a couple from non-Black artists. And it was their concept of Blackness, which we'll just say it was off. It wasn't, it wasn't accurate. So anyway,

Kris: Hashtag problematic

Dalia: Thank you! Then I actually saw you promoting your own art. I was just fascinated. So, I would love to hear about your journey into spiritualism and how you got to the point that you created this for the rest of us, who've been dying to have something exactly like this.

Kris: Oh my gosh, you don't even know how many back flips my heart just did that you said that because, I mean, I felt the same way to be totally honest with you.

I was looking for a deck that really resonated with me. And I was like, I don't want to feel like a part of me is left out. Like, this is very like cis- het in premise, even though it's Black or this is non-Black, but it's queer kind of thing. And yeah, so that really just warmed my heart. I just had to say, thank you.

Thank you for that. So, my journey into spiritualism, well, I was like a very devout Christian when I was in high school and nobody made me go to church or anything. I think like some part of me just knew I needed something spiritual in my life. And then in college I started having like a crisis of faith and just started really questioning a lot of things about the foundations of Christianity.

So I was in more of a place where I was like, I don't know what I believe. But in that time, my father's mother passed, and I started seeing and hearing her. And that was my introduction into ancestors, I would say. And that's probably the foundation of where like all my other connections with different spirits and energies and stuff really started.

Dalia: How did you feel when that first happened? Because I know me growing up in a, I was made to go to church, so difference there, and there was always a lot of fear around anything that had to do with the dead. At least what I was told was that if you think you heard a deceased, loved one, it's a demon pretending to be them.

So, I would have been alarmed, had that happen to me. But what was your experience?

Kris: I think what this really came down to is that I was blessed to have relationships with both of my grandmothers while they were alive. So, it was like, I knew their energies. Both of them, like when they passed, I knew it was, they knew it was me kind of thing.

And like right before my grandma passed a few months earlier, when we kind of found out that she wasn't going to make it and they were like, just take her home so she can be comfortable for however long she has left kind of thing. She started saying something very like random to me about like asking me what size shoe I wear.

And she was like, I just have a feeling you're going to have to wear my shoes. But she was like this hardcore prayer warrior. And there were so many things that she used to do that I didn't understand as a kid, or I thought like, she's just really, really into this and not quite as much as me kind of thing.

And, but it's like, they're really like some foundations for spiritual ism and that side of my family, despite being very devoutly, Christian, they're very superstitious about things that kind of let me know. There was other things that folks started hiding in Christianity on that side of my family. So, I think between those two things, I just knew it was her.

I literally felt it in the moment that she let go of her existence in this life. And I felt her come to me and then I just started feeling her. It'd be like, grab this while you're at the store. And I would need it like six months later and stuff like that. And then eventually she was like, I need you to make me, she didn't describe it as an altar.

Other people call them alters, but she described it as a landing pad. She was like, I need you to make me a landing pad. I need to introduce you some other ancestors. And so that was how she basically taught me how to make an altar. And so I'm spirit taught in a lot of the things that I do, like different spirits, just kind of introduce themselves to me cause they know that like I won't get freaked out and I kind of, you know how to communicate and learn them.

I think the foundation of that is that I knew her while she was alive. And so, it was like, I got to be in her energy while she was alive. And I knew it was her when she passed. Yeah.

Dalia: That really resonates the idea that even in families that have become very deeply interested in Christianity or that's the only religious practice they associate with that doesn't mean that all of the old spiritual practices are gone.

And it's something that I've seen pop up a lot of places, the accusation or the false idea that Black Americans who are descendants of enslaved people have no culture because slavery interrupted all of that. And somehow, we just magically became nothing but property. And there are even some Black Americans who believe that, like we have nothing, but it's not true.

It may be took different forms and our culture has evolved to be something that you don't find on the continent. It has become something else, but at no point, did we become culture free or spirituality free and only have the option of what, you know, your oppressor offered you. It always becomes some kind of hybrid version of what we were before and who we are now.

So, I've been reading more about hoodoo and how you can see a lot of practices you see, and who do come from specific indigenous practices that people might still practice a little bit in Africa, not as much because colonization also affected people's relationship with indigenous religions there, but you can see that people were brought here and then became like an amalgamation of all the different religious practices.

It wasn't coming from one specific area. So, it becomes a reflection of the diaspora and you find it everywhere. You just don't always recognize where it came from.

Kris: Exactly. And that was what I would actually go to say that that applies to Black people globally. Cause my family is actually Jamaican. And I like work with Christian spirits, but I also practice Obeah and those two things are treated like they're totally different.

And Obeah is still like illegal because it's associated with curses and hexes, but people don't know that a lot of those laws came from when Obeah men were giving slaves poison to poison their masters and were giving slaves or enslaved people, rather because I'm like reprogramming that one in my brain.

But we're giving them tokens for a courage to rebel and things like that. Because before that white people were still going to Obeah men in Jamaica too. So, it was just like, but it's different when you start using this stuff to mess with their systems. Right? So that's where a lot of like the witchcraft laws around

really began. It's like rooted in this tradition of rebellion. And I don't know, it just never felt mutually exclusive for me because both of my grandmas were Christians. And so, it's like, despite the fact that Obeah is really what connects me to my ancestors and through my ancestors connects me to a lot of other stuff.

It's like, I know that like a lot of Christian spirits have my back because my grandmother is prayed over me, like to them too

Dalia: So, some of these other spirits are not deceased blood relatives. They could be spirits who have been looking out for your family for a while.

Kris: Exactly. And that's the thing for a lot of Black people globally like that.

I really try to impart is that. You can be the one who is restoring some tradition from 600 years ago and developing a new way of relating to this spirit that could just recognize like, oh, hey, you know, you're a descendant of this like bloodline that I have like a pact with or whatever. So as a lot of people are really waking up to these things, you know, a lot of these spirits are like, oh, you might actually be open to be in the one I can talk to you now.

Dalia: Now when it comes to that, was there a recognizable alter in hindsight, in your grandma's house?

The one who said she needed a landing pad; did she have one?

Kris: So, both of my grandmothers had like these just different like display case things with everybody's funeral programs or like a wall wave and yeah, one time actually, when my mom on. On my mom's side, she basically says like, yeah, I like to keep everybody's programs.

Cause my mom used to do it. Like, and one time she saw my altar and she totally rearranged it somewhere else. She like brought me something and she didn't go, this was my author. She was just like, well, I just saw you had this right here. And I thought it made sense to do it like this. And she completely like perfectly made an altar and she knows nothing about that stuff just from seeing it so many times without a name though.

Dalia: That's so interesting because I never thought about that saving the programs. And that is so interesting. Yes, absolutely. I have a ton of relatives who do that, who feel very Christian and that's all they are, but like my mother is half Jamaican and half Cuban and I know just, they worked so hard to break people away from their traditional ways that feels like even in the family members, there is this fear around all things that aren't recognizable as part of Catholicism or part of another branch of Christianity. Even the family members that, you know, in Cuba, the mixing of Santeria and Catholicism,

but then some people are like, oh no. Even if their neighbors and the rest of the town says, this is normal, and this is what we do here. So have you had any tension like that with anybody in the family or you've been able to just stay focused on what you knew was right? And you were affirmed by your two grandmas?

Kris: Yeah, it's definitely more so the second one, I like. I don't know that I've really been like super close to a whole bunch of my family. Like, as I just got older, because I was just more so in community where I was, and my family didn't necessarily live near me, you know? So, I wouldn't necessarily be the person who was like traveling across the country for a bunch of family events.

So, in that way, it's like, I mean, if somebody does have a problem with me, they probably just keep their distance. And I don't know, but the family members that I'm close to are all really, really cool about it, but also just because they know me as a person. So, it's like, nobody's looking at me like, oh, Kris is just evil.

Dalia: That's a blessing in itself. You don't need that extra, heat from family.

Kris: Yeah. And so, I don't know. I feel like if I have a feeling like somebody does feel like that, I just kind of keep my distance from them. And I do think internally I had to work, lose some things like both with my queerness and with my spirituality on that front.

But over time, like my sister burns ancestor money now she'll hit me up. Like, what should I do to like, thank the ancestor because this money burns has just brought in some clients, like what's going on.

And I had a cousin hit me up one time was like, what's this aura cleanse business about?

Definitely some of like my family's minds have open or they felt led into just trying some stuff and seeing how they can work their realities and things based off seeing me. So that's been really good.

Dalia: I love that, like you said, other ancestors or other spirits in general might recognize that you are the entry point into helping the family reclaim old practices, but then it also seems like living family may recognize you are the entry point to reconnecting to something that they've lost.

Kris: Wow. I hadn't really thought about it like that, but yeah.

Dalia: With the queerness, when did that come into your awareness? So, you were voluntarily, actively experiencing spirituality in high school, through a Christian Church where you aware of your queerness then, or were you in a church where that wasn't a problem.

Kris: So, I don't think I was really aware of my queerness in high school, at least not like consciously. I think I became aware of my friend sometime in college around my junior year of college, I would say when I was just like dating more and hoeing more so, and senior year was my first queer relationship and we were together for a little while.

And so, when it became like, just kind of clear that that was serious, that I wasn't like experimenting, I was really embracing like, no, I can just, I'm like just queer, you know, I can, I can have really queer relationships. At that point, I was like, all right, well, I'm gonna have to tell my family.

They, cause I'm not like I'm obviously not going to like hide my relationships and stuff like that. Like that was just my mentality at that time was just, well, if like where there's going to be some problems, we might as well just find out now, you know? But I don't think anybody was really like actively homophobic or at least not like intentionally, because I do come from a Jamaican family.

Like my mom sometimes will say like really insensitive stuff and I'll be like, Ooh, that was like really hurtful. But in hindsight, I can see like, she's trying, you know, she was trying, but there's like a cultural learning curve and stuff. And she wouldn't like, when I learned how to just communicate, like this hurts me, she would adjust her behavior rather than being like super reactive.

So even looking back with that, like things where I would've been like, yeah, I was dealing with homophobia and stuff from my family, it was more like from a place of ignorance, it wasn't from a place of like malice or like anybody was going to disown me or anything like that, you know? And so, yeah. And then when I came out as non-binary, that was in 2019.

So that was more recently that I came out to myself and then like to my family and stuff. Oh, it was a lot harder with my pronouns.

Dalia: Oh my goodness. The struggle is real. How, what was that process like for you? Because I feel like in hindsight, so I was born in 81. I'm going to be 40 this year.

And so, we didn't have a lot of language that we have now in English. And its weird how language can kind of bind you. It's hard to conceive of a concept that doesn't exist in your language, but at the same time, this is the colonizer's language. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of my ancestors’ indigenous languages, even though I speak Spanish because of my Cuban ancestry.

Again, that's another colonizers language. So, I'm sure there was more room and gender wasn't as binary and some of these languages, because I know culturally the binary was not a thing in a lot of the cultures that we are linked to by blood, but for me, even trying to express, I knew I was never hyper femme. I always hated hyper fem things, but then I also thought, well, what part of this is just how we're socialized to think about femininity?

And for a while, it was just like, well, I'm just a bunchy woman, but then in relationships with women, they were like, hmmm, you're absolutely not that. And then I'm like, oh, I'm an aggressive femme. Just trying to find the language and then trying to find which pronouns are mine, it's been such a journey.

I find sometimes I'll even mis-gender myself, but lately what's been feeling right is no pronouns at all. And my mother growing up, even though she, her are her pronouns, she was always told us you never use someone's pronouns while they're in the room. Like, if I would say her talking about my mother, she would pop me in the head, not like super hard, but like, I'm right here.

I'm your mother. I'm right here. Don't talk about me like I'm not here. And she said that it was a Jamaican thing, but I have not heard that consistently.

I'm like, is it, where does that come from? Have you heard that before? Like being a thing, that even cis people say don't use pronouns while I'm standing right here?

Kris: No, not in my family, but I'm so intrigued when I hear stuff like that, because it does sound like indigenous in nature.

Dalia: It's weird. And then I mentioned it just someone else trying to explain, I don't use any pronouns at all, but some people, mostly straight people have been reading no pronouns as hostile to LGBTQIA+ people, but I'd heard other people saying it too.

So I don't know I'm in like this weird place of like didn't we always know we were non-binary, but we just weren't using the word non-binary and isn't that just a big ass umbrella. And that's why so many of us are like, am I in the right place? Cause it's like such a big room.

Kris: Exactly. Yeah. I because I think if I had the language, I probably would've started going by.

Non-binary when I started going by Kris when I was 12, because I didn't have language for it, but I was like, it just sounds less like a girl's name, you know? Cause like my birth name was Kristen and so my family would call me Kristin, but everybody else in my life had called me Kris since that age, you know?

And so it was like, I was thinking about it. I was like, if I would've had the language back then that probably would have been the moment that I would have been like, yeah, no, this is it's because this is like who I am and just feeling very much outside of a lot of the language and almost feeling like I existed just outside of a lot of people's concepts of what masculine feminine are and like, and I think that's divine.

You know, and I think my connections with all these different spirits and all these different realms has just continued to affirm that. Like when you really start seeing the vast variety of realms that there are, it makes sense. How many of us are probably connected to all of these realms that are really just figuring out a new way to exist and new ways to express ourselves.

But you're also not the first person ever I've known who doesn't use any pronouns and is just like, I know two people who just use their first initials and they're like, my pronouns are K you know.

Dalia: That gives me an idea, that actually is really helpful. It can be hard for people to get used to it, not because they're trying to be difficult. It's just a bigger shift than them accepting your queerness and learning how to not be offensive to you, but asking people to use the correct pronouns when that's just not how the language has worked in their experience up until now. It's a struggle.

So then when you ask somebody don't use any pronouns at all, they feel like they're saying your name entirely too much in a sentence. It feels very strange to them.

Kris: Oh goodness. That's wild. Yeah. I think like, I'm just, I just know so many different queer people that I'm not programmed to just assume anything about anybody.

So I'm very much like when somebody tells me, like, if somebody was like refer to me as it, I'm like, okay, that's just, you, you know,

Dalia: It's not a problem with queer people because when people use Neo pronouns, I'm just like, okay, okay. I write it down. I put it next to their name in my phone and I get it. And I know to look at it again before we start talking so that I will use the correct ones.

It's not that hard.

Kris: Exactly. So, I think like being in community, you kind of learn to let people tell you who they are, rather than assuming anything about them. So it didn't like strike me as anything when I saw no pronouns. So I was just like, all right.

Dalia: You see this is why spending time in community is so crucial. I really want to know more about when you look back, even thinking about your ancestors and the gendered language around like, oh, that was your great, great grandma, but was it, we don't know. You didn't meet, like we don't really know. Have you had any epiphanies that specific people have brought to you or once people get out of their physical body, is there less attachment to things like that?

Because spirit never has a gender, right? At least that's what I thought that spirit is always gender free.

Kris: Because this is a freewill universe. They can take on like any like forms and fashions that they want. That's why, like, even with our Orisha, you'll have different paths, like there's different lifetimes of them that will look different and we're different.

And just because multidimensionality is a very real thing when it comes to spirits. And a lot of like, just the fact that energy does recycle in all these different ways. So you will have a lot of gender neutral entities that are like, I'm just like a universal energy. Like I don't, but then you will also have like goddesses or, you know, who are just like, no, I like really lean into what we would say is femininity now. But even within the, like, you've seen the deck, like I really break down how, like, these things are really formless energy concepts that can manifest in different ways. So there's no way to define it except to connect to it for yourself and decide what proportion of that you resonate with, you know?

Just like, there's all different types of like identities that humans are realizing that we have it's very similar for spirits.

Dalia: Interesting, because I had assumed that, especially when we're here in the west, a lot of times you're always dealing with some kind of male cis-gender God.

I started to think it was always a projection that humans are putting on spirit, this gendered thing. But I never thought about, you know, the spirit itself or himself or herself may decide. This is the energy that I want to put out there. And then people pick up on that energy and understand this is a goddess, or this is just spirit with no gender.

Kris: Right. And sometimes like, just depending on where your conception is, spirits won't necessarily have attachments to being seen a certain way. So if they have to take on a certain form to be comprehensible, then that's what they'll do. Like there's this one Veda where Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita where Krishna shows somebody Krishna’s universal form and it freaked the person out.

Like the whole thing is like, I went through wonder, I went through total fear.... and then Krishna turned back into like a humanoid thing. So yeah that's like what I really look like. And you just aren't ready.

Dalia: I wonder if that's why, so a while ago I got a reading, an ancestor reading. I was under the impression maybe something broke down in communication, but I thought that my ancestors were going to be, making bold, visible moves within a certain timeframe and that it didn't happen.

But then when I went back for a follow-up reading, the person that had the reading, when they said, I think it's you, you are not ready and they know you're not ready and they're not here to freak anybody out. They know that if you really start hearing them and seeing them, you're going to have a little meltdown, even though you keep saying, show yourself, show yourself.

They're like, ummmm, but you're not ready. So that all makes sense.

Kris: Yeah, absolutely. Cause my spirits definitely know there's only certain times that I can deal with visuals. Other times it's like do not just pop up in the corner of my eye when I just woke up. Y'all like, don't do that. I don't have a problem with hearing anybody like that for some reason, that just never really freaked me out. So I'm like send a sound like before you send an image, if you see like I'm doing any meditation, I can look at you.

Dalia: I love the idea of being able to set boundaries even with non-human entities.,

Kris: You have to, or they'll run your life. Like they'll get away with as much as you let them get away with, but then you also have some, like, that's why I think ancestors, it's really important to connect with them before you start connecting with other entities because you are them.

So they really understand your human limits a lot more than other spirits. Like some of them, it's not that they don't care, but they don't exist in this body. So they don't understand that you're tired unless you just say like, Hey, not right now, like I'm tired. Or if you're like, they don't come at me like that, like this is not a productive way to communicate.

Like, okay, I understand that this is urgent, but you can't do this right now. This is hurting my ears. Like that kind of thing. You know?

Dalia: How do you make sure that you specifically stick to your ancestors? Is it just by asking that only they come through or are there tools you would stay away from.

Is that your experience? Are there certain tools we should save for later or save for never?

Kris: So tricksters will definitely like, especially if the spirit doesn't recognize you. So it's if you haven't been initiated into something and you're like, oh, I'm just going to light this candle and summon and so-and-so and tricksters there definitely will be like, well, s**t, I'm just gonna answer cause like so-and-so's obviously not coming.

Cause you don't know what you're doing. And they will just come and talk to you, like give me attention, give me energy. I think, well, number one, like either starting with somebody that you knew in life or somebody that you just heard a lot of stories about when it comes to ancestors and letting them be your entryway into other ancestors.

And when it comes to branching out into other spirits, like, because when spirits realize you can hear them, a lot of different things, we'll just kind of like try to flood you sometimes. And so you do have to know how to say no . When I feel like somebody, I like haven't like consciously interacted with before it's coming.

The first thing that I do is like ask, do you mean me my highest good. And if the answer is at all shaky, cause like a trickster will try to lie, but you can kind of feel, it feels like when a person's lying a little bit, you know, like there's just something shaky. You didn't know how to answer that directly.

But then when I get a really direct response, the responses like, yes, like obviously like then it's like, okay, so now we can like talk.

Dalia: That's really helpful. Do you, in your experience, does everyone who passes, like if you're thinking of a close relative that died, but in life they were super, super Christian and all they ever envisioned was going straight to heaven no in-between is everybody available to be called out to, or are there some people that based on what they said when you knew them.

They probably have moved on and they can't hear you anymore.

Kris: It really depends. Some ancestors are earth bound. Like for some reason they just couldn't cross over. They can't let go. And some really didn't have something just deeply unhealed in them. That just still plagues them as a spirit.

So different situational things like that will affect even if you say like, let me speak with my honorable ancestors or my righteous ancestors, then like certain ancestors, aren't going to be able to answer that. And that is how you want to start. You don't want to start with like your unhealed ancestors giving you a bunch of discouraging advice. I think one thing when people talk about this separation though, is that eventually you can reach a point where you can do healing work with those ancestors, but you really have to have a solid foundation with the ones who mean you your highest good first, you know, so that like you can really see that distinction and know the kind of healing work that you're doing.

Because a lot of the things with your unhealed ancestors are also unhealed in you. So that's a very vulnerable thing.

Dalia: Can you help them do healing without directly interacting with them? If you do your own healing work does that go backwards, and forwards like with your other relatives?

Kris: Yeah. I think anytime anybody heals themselves, it heals around and backwards and forwards.

The present is in conversation with all things, whatever current present you're choosing is in conversation with alternate realities, it's in conversation with the future and it's in conversation with the past. And so, yeah, you can definitely do things to elevate ancestors who need elevating and help bring them peace, but you need to be in a solid place and have a solid, hold on those things within yourself first, you know?

Dalia: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. I've been thinking a lot lately about, well, not lately, probably like forever about intergenerational trauma and how it physically is passed on to you through DNA. But then also wondering if sometimes if you feel like a high level of rage or just general being super, super high strung in a way that indicates you're a descendant of survivors of trauma, but also could be that you're still feeling their energy and all this unresolved rage that they died with because they were subjected to countless injustices and just all the disappointment you can even imagine.

If you get to a point where you're spending your time in silence and you feel like your nervous system is less agitated all the time, would that also be going out to them or does that not necessarily mean anything's happened beyond you?

Kris: Oh, it absolutely does. Like, your DNA is like a continuation of that, you know?

And so yeah, the intergenerational healing definitely does impact the experiences of intergenerational trauma, because it starts activating the things that the trauma deactivated within the bloodline too, you know, like these connections with all these other spirits. That's why sometimes when you move through something that does take up a whole lot of weight, because trauma is like a really heavy energy, wherever you experience it.

Right. And when you clear that it makes room for like a whole lot of subtle energy that was once there before, you know.

I think you said something earlier about like ancestors who conceptualize gender differently that I wanted to touch on because a lot of the people will say it was the great mothers were the original humans, but they like it when I say the great ancestors, because so many of them did not resonate with womanhood.

Like there were trans men, they were folks who in today's terms would identify as non-binary. And that's why like Black queer trans and intersex folks do have like a lot of unseen forces that are so in supportive us, like being visible and being out.

Dalia: That makes me wonder too, when you spoke about ancestors that are invested in the wellbeing of your family, not because you're blood relatives, but because they had a commitment with your blood line.

I immediately thought that this could also be like folks who never decided to have children of their own or couldn't for whatever reason also being part of our extended family. Family isn't just blood family in this life or in any other.

Kris: Yeah, absolutely. And that's where like the whole concept of trancestors comes from too.

Like a lot of

Dalia: Ohhh tell me about that I haven't heard that.

Kris: I feel like my first trancestors were Monte Carlo and Keywan they pass they were really like really integral in the Atlanta community. But they were two of the first, like people who had passed that my ancestors were like, okay, you have to help them transition.

You have to work with them and stuff like that. So I actually bonded with them, in depth and wound up really involved in doing a lot of like death doula work and helping community members like grieve and like sending messages from them and things like that. And it really has deeply connected me to a lot of trancestors who really their family and this life was community, you know?

And so they, they look over communities still.

Dalia: Oh, wow. That's beautiful. So the things that you offer to the community as a spiritualist, you do death doula work, and you also have created the Oracle deck for us. What are the other things that you do?

Kris: I'm also just a deeply creative person, so there's a lot of like just creative stuff that I do as well. I paint, I do poetry. I've been a career spoken word artists. And so I would say that while it's not necessarily my career, it is another deep, part of my calling is to be a creative soul.

But the spiritual abolitionist definitely is and the cosmic reparations fund and just making myself available as a universal, spiritual support system for Black queer trans and intersex people who sees them like for who they are, you know? And I think it's deeply meaningful to receive spiritual support and healing protection tools, prosperity tools.

Everything in my shop is really geared towards things to make our lives easier, given all the s**t that goes on in this system. So when there was a lot going on with police action against Black people, I dropped the f**k around and find out protection blend was like, okay. So if a white person is trying to kill you with the cops clot then went this, you know, like, but then also like when I see people crowdfunding like, oh, Hey, here's some ancestor money burn this as you crowd fund and help manifest more funds for you.

You know? The higher love potion, which is like a roll-on oil is like, I see a lot of folks going through stuff emotionally. So this is going to help with calling in your spirits who can help with emotional support, you know so it's deeply rooted. Just everything that I do. I'm open for aura cleanses and for divinations this month as well.

 The deck really came out of like, I was like, I can't really like divine for everybody all the time, but I think this is literally a way that I can, you know, and when I realized that like that Oracle deck did not exist, that was for like Black queer trans and intersex folks. I was like, all right, well, I need to create, it was basically what spirit was just like, it doesn't exist yet.

Cause you didn't make it like you paint, you write you've been a collective channel, what's stopping you they were just like, why haven't you made it already?

Dalia: I love that. I love that. And for anybody who doesn't know the difference between tarot and oracle cards, what is the difference to you as someone who actually has made it.

Kris: Yeah. So tarot is a regimented system. So even though you'll have them with different themes and using different things to express them, there's still basic things about numbers and the elements and stuff that just applies to tarot and the major Arcana also. And so it's more regimented in that way, you're going to have the same number of cards you're going to have the same archetypes. Oracle decks are a lot more open-ended even in how you can read with them.

with this one, they, it went through like several different editing processes kind of, because I was initially gonna like, have a lot more keys and they were just like, why? Just like, like you said, everything you need to say, like stop trying to like rub your nose against the grind stone.

Basically.

Dalia: When you say it could be read different ways to, how do you recommend somebody use a deck?

Kris: So you can pretty much approach it anyway, that was one thing about the reason that I. Went to different primordial, just universal energies but I more so consulted the universal energies who were conscious of marginalization and of the spiritual warfare on the mental and emotional wellbeing of Black queer trans and intersex folks every day, because we're seeing it more.

And I started just seeing a lot of things that folks were going to have to be dealing with in the next 10 to 25 years. And it was like, yo, I need the guidance that's really going to help, folks to do the inner work, do the outer work or whatever to be prepared. And a lot of us who can really feel that new ways of existence need to, are going to need to be existing sometime soon.

You know, I was like a lot of these oracle decks are very frilly and love and lighty and don't necessarily acknowledge like, no, revolution is coming. It's really here in the spiritual realms, you know?

Dalia: Oh, yeah, that resonates so deeply. So much is missing in these mainstream spiritual practices that have hijacked some indigenous traditions and over simplified them.

And everything's about 'love and light love and light', and the insinuation is if you really are a spiritual person that you're only aware of positive things, and every time something negative, you know, starts to come toward you, you're just like positive vibes only. And then magically that negative force just poof disappears.

We know from living in these Black bodies, that's not a f*****g thing. And that you could be bursting with positive energy and spiritual power and you will still have to deal with whatever the fuckery is of the day, whether that's somebody's homophobia f*****g up your employment situation, or somebody's transphobia f*****g you over, or somebody racism, it really is a thing.

So when you just now said it's spiritual warfare, can you talk about that? Because I would love to hear from a spiritual perspective, that's focused on abolition and liberation. What is really going on?

Kris: Oh, okay. I'm going to have to like talk about this kind of broadly and you're going to find this getting fucked.

So my, my word that I like to use is Babylon for the powers that used to be, I'm just going to say, cause they're really scrambling to hold onto power now. Because I think so many Black people are waking up and kind of realizing when you feel very drained because of a lot of these things, your energy is going somewhere.

It's powering things. And so a lot of the times, like when there's like these really subtle stories, these news stories, that these are the ones that everybody's seeing everywhere of, like, like I was telling somebody the other day, I've marched for a lot of people who did not make the news. And now all of a sudden it has to be a news story.

And the video footage has to be on your timeline and stuff like that. And just things that like will fundamentally make you feel unsafe and make your spirit feel unsafe in your body. That energy goes somewhere. So that stuff is very much intentional, just like in terms of trying to degrade our mental and emotional wellness to distract us from getting messages about what we need to be doing and ways that we can be prepared and things that we're meant to be doing on this earth right now to deal with this stuff, you know. For a while

I was just like going around doing healing, work with different places in the land where there are a lot of Black American earthbound ancestors who just died in such horrific ways that they're not at peace . And so I would just go out and do healing work. That was where, like the term, the spiritual abolitionist really came from, was it felt like helping free them and free these ancestors that were bound.

But those were ritual sacrifices. You see what I'm saying? Like the KKK is a ritualistic group. And so even when those things, like they're deeply embedded in a lot of the folks who are at the top of these corporations and stuff like there's ritual symbolism and things like that, that they're really trying to do to wage war on us all the time, and to keep us blind to our power, you know?

But the thing is a lot of us, we are we're master manifesters or we have spirits who are master manifesters like, we have spirits who will make ways for us and stuff like that. And spirits who will give us strength like High John the Conqueror is one that a lot of people will use because he's really big on emotional uplift and on helping you find ways to outwit them and outwit situations and stuff.

And so I like, as a shadow seer, I can see like certain like ritualistic things that are going on and are very background when certain things start circulating like that. And so I'll also see like, okay, this will be emotionally manipulating this kind of stuff. So then my channelings will be like, Hey, do this kind of inner healing work, focus on this in this time, you know?

To try to send messages from energies that are trying to balance and neutralize and not allow certain outcomes to happen to folks. And so that also definitely went into the creation of the deck was just teaching people how to protect themselves on a small scale when people are throwing crap at you or just evil eye and stuff, but also on a larger scale with the stuff that the state is just doing every day to try to f**k with us, you know?

Dalia: I've been hearing lately from almost everybody I know at this point in my life, everybody, they told you on a regular basis is involved in some kind of social justice work in some area, whether it's trying to get equal access to healthcare for fat people, whether it's trying to get people to stop murdering Asian people, everybody's in some kind of liberation work and everyone has been so demoralized lately that at the end of every conversation, it's just like, I guess my new objective is just to survive. Like repeatedly friends, keep saying, when I asked, well, how are you doing? And they know, I don't mean just give me some surface level. I mean, how are you really doing?

How are you doing? They're like, well, I'm still alive. And that's about it. Early 2020, it felt like momentum and there was new life into this second wave of the civil rights movement.

And then it started to feel like the constant news coverage, became an energy drain. And then you heard even well meaning folks of color saying you can't look away and don't forget their names. And basically if you don't have the strength to keep watching it, like who the f**k do you think you are? I mean, they died.

Kris: It's like guilting people into consuming. Especially I dislike it when people do that to Black people and like I'm Black every day, you know?

Dalia: Right, right. Do I really have to keep watching something that's going to make me feel like I don't have any energy left to do anything?

Kris: And to be honest, I was an organizer before I was a spiritualist. And I think that was one thing that I saw. I was like, I can't help, but feel like the way this is modeled currently, we're not modeled to model wellness and model wellness as an essential part of doing that kind of work, you know, like modeling, having inner peace as an essential part of going to war with things. Because you can't be out of balance and those energies either, or you'll just be popping off and giving your energy to everything and mental health matters.

You know, mental health is deeply connected to spiritual health. We had so many ancestral practices that were for mental, spiritual, and emotional health that I feel like are coming back in a lot of these ways. I am prioritizing, like, I've seen a lot of Hoodoo apothecaries with like, anti-anxiety herbs for Black folks, you know, and different stuff like that.

I mean, in my opinion, you should be in your liberation work out of love and not obligation. If you are doing what you're doing, because somebody is telling you to feel obligated to it. That's not really coming from your heart. That might not even necessarily be what you are meant to do. I do think they try to condition us to burn ourselves out so that we're not effective.

And so that is a large part of what spurred me into becoming a healer and doing aura cleanses and things like that. And helping people release those things at an energy level ,receive these visions from spirit at an energy level, you know, like cultivate that self love on an energy level so that you have like a level of psychic shielding.

And you know, when to use that when you're dealing with these things.

Dalia: That framing is extremely helpful. Doing the work out of love. From your posts online, you seem very intersectional, but your work is focused on the liberation of queer Black folks, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're elevating the people you're serving above other people, but that's what you were called to do.

Kris: Right, I center Black queer trans and intersex folks because there's just such a big question with spiritualists all the time. Is that a safe space for me personally, as a Black queer, trans and intersex person, like, am I going to have to deal with some kind of microaggressive b******t while I'm coming to you for a healing service, you know, It's not that I don't also like do service with cis people. It's not that I don't also, you know, do service with white people. I do, I have a reparations fund and I asked that any white person who benefits from my work contribute to that consistently. Like, so if you are going to take benefit from me as a white person, I need you to be a benefit to my community by sponsoring community healing services and sponsoring products for community members.

But I do think it's important as a spiritualist that I do center myself that way to always make it like clear first and foremost to community members who need that heal at work the most like I'm in a safe space for you.

Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that makes so much sense to me. Oh my goodness. I'm sure there's like a million other questions I'm going to of later, but...

Kris: Do you want me to see if the deck has anything to say?

Dalia: Yessss, let's see!

Kris: Something just popped out.

Dalia: Is that the one that wants to be read?

Kris: Yes. So it is the birth key and for people who this is their first time seeing it, they're kind of like flashcards. So there's no books you have to sift through. When you pull a card, it's just going to tell you what it means.

The birth key unveils that you can either consciously sit down or get sat down by spirit because you have a new creation to labor into existence. The only thing blocking this creation from coming to you is the fact that you are not honoring your labor and prioritizing your creative baby. Only share your energy with those who can support you in your focus and allow the universe to remove anyone else from your life.

Allow spirit to use you in your co-creation process. Creation is spiritual labor surrender fully to this blessing. Focus on your focus and abundance will flow in what follows.

Dalia: That might've been specifically for me. I don't know if it's for the conversation.

Kris: It’s wild because it's a new moon. Yeah, it was yesterday. So that's manifestation time. So it felt like this feels kind of specific. I don't know. This might be like the perfect astrological time for you to.

Dalia: Yeah, sometimes it's ridiculous how many different ways spirit tries to tell me something. And I'm still like, what do I do?

I got that message a lot yesterday. And I was like, huh, I don't know. I'm still feeling lost. And now here it is.

Kris: Oh, I love that. And I've been loving that with the feedback specifically for Black queer and trans folks about the deck, just like, oh my gosh, it's so straight forward. And that was my goal. I was like, I don't want this to be a super confusing deck.

I want it to really just call out the energy so that you can see it like, oh yeah, like

Dalia: That's so interesting. There's something about the way that it's written too. And I always, I struggled with this because I felt very disconnected from Black American culture growing up because I was raised in a very white centered church.

I didn't get to engage with the music. And the church is such a big part of Black American culture. If you didn't at least get to go as a kid, I feel like you're missing out on a lot of references. There's all kinds of songs you don't know. And then so many of these songs also have messaging that bridges, spiritualism and Christianity.

And so I'm always concerned that I won't get it. That something specifically for Black people might just go right over my head. But what I do find is when somebody is more connected to the diaspora in general, and your worldview is expanded because of the queerness and the focus on the trans folks and the intersex folks, that's the language that I understand.

Like I maybe wouldn't have understood it if it was written by cis femme Black woman from the US who got to grow up in the church. That she might use language that I'd be like, I don't know the references, but when I've been going through the deck, I find myself asking, why do I feel like these were all written for me?

Kris: Yes. And I've heard that from several Black gender expansive folks too, just like this feels really affirming with like language that I can get behind. And that was so the goal I'm so glad.

Dalia: Yeah. Thank you so much for making and then modeling for everybody that there's just a lot of stuff that we're here to do, but sometimes you feel like you can't do it because you think there aren't enough people that need it.

Like, you know, you could have used it, but you're like, how many of me are there out there more than you think, because people's voices are constantly being suppressed and people are still finding their way to clearly identifying who they are for themselves. Like coming out to yourself first, like you said, as a non-binary person,

that is a step. You don't hear people talk about it a lot, but that's like the most important step.

Kris: Exactly. And it's a process.

Dalia: It doesn't happen just like that.

Kris: It's a decolonization process really.

Dalia: Yeah.

Kris: Just decolonizing your concept of new.

Dalia: Wow. That really hits. Where do we go to hear more of this? Where did we go to hear more of what Kris is putting out into the world?

Kris: So I have a podcast where I do collective channelings. If it ever seems like s**t is really going to like hit the fan. I dust out my old telepathic hotline with the universe and pull out messages.

And that's called The Liberation Station Podcast. you can find me at www.thespiritualabolitionist.com. There you'll find links to the podcast, to my shop, with all my products, including the deck and my art and all my different spiritual tools and the cosmic reparations fund for any white and non-Black folks who have heard this and would like to sponsor healing products and services and emergency funds for community members.

All of that can be found on my website. I'm also on Instagram @thespiritualabolitionist and @kriswithakcreates. That's more so like my personal, like splash, just like putting out different creative things that I'm working on. Just for fun for. Yeah, I think that's pretty much everywhere that you can find me dropping my little gems.

I try to put out different little like memes and stuff about the, how to handle the astrological weather on my Instagram.

Dalia: That's what I feel like is really missing for me. A lot of times they're like a practical approach. There's so much spiritual stuff out there and sometimes it just kind of feels like you're on the receiving end of a fire hose and you're like, well, what should I do right now?

Presenting it and in a meme form sounds very digestible.

Kris: Yeah, I did a really, I did a really fun one with a living single scene the other day. And I was like, Max equals how I'm going to be this mercury retrograde. And it was a scene where everybody was arguing in the kitchen and Max just walked in and got handed the cookie and got handed a glass of milk and tried to reach for another cookie and just walked out.

Dalia: Yeah, this is what we need. This is what we need. Understandable. Something you can internalize.

Yeah, we remember Max. I keep seeing all this stuff about the Friends anniversary or reunion or whatever, and

Kris: you mean white Living Single?

Dalia: Thank you. I'm like, oh, that thing that was a derivative form of a show that it just resonates so much more.

It's funny because at the time the environment I was in, all I ever saw was Friends. And then I get to watch Living Single, as a binge, as an adult. And I'm like, wow this clearly was first.

Kris: I literally can quote every single episode. I'm going to be writing an article at one day where I break down every Friend's episode.

That's can you link directly back to a Living Single episode. Stay tuned. Cause that's been in the back of my head cause I grew up in a Friends household too, and I started rewatching it, but I watched living single all the time.

Dalia: Yeah. That really says something for anybody who's thinking from an artistic standpoint.

Oh, I can't do ... because it's so derivative. But can't you though? Because how successful was Friends? But can't you though? It really depends on who's going to be consuming it in the end.

Kris: It's true. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dalia: Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, not that we want to encourage or validate the constant theft of Black culture.

Kris: I was like white folks that wasn't necessarily for you to go appropriating anything.

Dalia: If anything, all what I can say is it was on brand.

Kris: So true. So true

Dalia: Taking, taking, taking, taking, and what I've been seeing so much lately is how both straight Black American culture and white popular culture is just constantly stealing Black, queer cultural things like left, right and center.

A friend was telling me about a show that they're enjoying, but I had decided not to watch it because the news behind the scenes was basically like, hey, there were ancestors who put in a ton of time into ballroom that got passed over vs the person we selected, you know, while they're a person of color, they're very fair skinned and they have straight hair, they're not any of the things that the people who started ballroom are. And while they are queer and I'm definitely not invalidating their queerness. It's different to be queer and not engage with the culture. It's not the same.

Kris: With a lot of these celebrities that come out and it's like, okay, wait, you definitely aren't having the same experience as a lot of the rest of us.

And you're not in community with all these other queer people in the streets, which is where queerness really developed.

Dalia: If you were you’d have known to just sit your ass down. When this opportunity came up, if you actually were an active member of the community, it never would have crossed your mind to take this spot from a trans person with dark skin, who has been doing the damn thing since before you were f*****g born. It never would have entered your consciousness.

Kris: We have that issue in academia too, with folks who develop those things in academia, who aren't actually in the streets. And don't actually have respect for a lot of the dark skinned, Black, queer, and trans folks who model these accountability, things that you're now making millions off of books about I'm side eyeing somebody with the initials AMB on that one, because your publishing team is really trying to crush it.

There even is a story on that with you not compensating, dark skinned, Black, queer, and trans folks whose essays are the basis for your books. And now you're the authority on transformative justice.

Dalia: Alright. Cute. It's amazing when you start to hear about the layers. You suspect there's more b******t, but sometimes you don't know, cause it's not the area you function in.

That's really interesting to me and I am pan, bi/pan. Pan feels more right now, but bi is what people said a million years ago because I'm old. But I would never presume that I could lead the way in helping dark skinned trans femme folks, get liberation. If there was a show that was specifically for Black trans femmes, I would never think that that was my spot.

Or even if it was something that was supposed to be centered on cis gay Black men, because their lives and their experience of homophobia and transphobia is a million times higher than what I experience when it comes to homophobia because people keep assuming I'm straight.

I keep having to tell people I'm not straight and I don't have to worry about somebody throwing a brick at me if I'm holding hands with someone who, as people walk by, they think they see an opposite gender couple, it's not the same. So then why would I try and push myself to the front.

Kris: Centering yourself in an experience that you’re not living in the streets. Exactly. And you can so tell, but that's why I feel like it's so important that a lot of us just manifest our own s**t at this point. That's so much of why I try to get people tapped into like getting that spiritual support to manifest in your own s**t. I was a Black queer and trans person. You know,

Dalia: We’re going to leave it on that note to manifesting your own s**t everybody.

Kris: That's pretty much what the birth key is all about.

Dalia: Oh my God. I love that.

Oh, isn't Kris, just a breath of fresh air. I would love to hear what your greatest takeaways are from this episode. Supporting members on Substack have access to group posts and that is an excellent place to share. I recently decided that social media was just taking so much more away from me than it was giving and because my energy is needed elsewhere.

I just decided to let it all go.

Now the best way to connect with me online is on Substack.

So, if you want to chat about the episode checkout daliakinsey.substack.com and consider the supporting a member option.

Substack makes it super easy for you to share episodes that you love. So if you got a lot out of today's conversation and you feel like a friend of yours would too, please be sure to forward it to them.

Thank you so much for joining me. I'll see you next time.

Today we're joined by Jade Eloise. Jade self identifies as a fat Black, queer, artist, writer, and spiritual healer. Jade breaks down for us in this episode what body positivity truly means, what its roots are. Jade is a mental health and self-love advocate, but in this episode, breaks down the distinction between self-love and body positivity in its truest form.

This episode we explore:

The true definition of body positivity

Separating our worth from productivity

Intersections of identity and creative freedom

Pushing back against social programing/conditioning

This episode is too good to keep all to yourself.

Episode Resources

www.etsy.com/uk/shop/ArtbyBodiposipoet

www.instagram.com/reclaimingbopo/

www.daliakinsey.com

Get your copy of Decolonizing Wellness A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

Dalia: Hello and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I'm your host and decolonized wellness and body image coach Dalia Kinsey. I help queer folks of color heal their struggles with shame and self-acceptance through nutrition and self-care so they can live the most fierce, liberated, and joyful version of their lives.

Today we're joined by Jade Eloise Jade self identifies as a fat Black, queer, artist, writer, and spiritual healer. A bunch of my favorite things there back-to-back. So, this is a fabulous conversation, Jade breaks down for us in this episode what body positivity truly means, what its roots are. Jade is a mental health and self-love advocate, but in this episode, breaks down the distinction between self-love and body positivity in its truest form. This was a really informative interview when it was originally recorded and listening to it again.

So that I could transcribe it before it posted it here on sub stack. I got so much more out of some of these observations Jade shared about entrepreneurship.

I've been learning so much about myself in terms of what a affirming business space looks like for me and what type of marketing feels authentic and genuine and natural for me as I continue to promote Decolonizing Wellness, I have had such a time reckoning with the difference between what success is in terms of what I wanted from this project- which is to share, to use it as another tool, to reduce the suffering of all kinds of folks with marginalized identities that have a difficult relationship with their bodies because of the systems that we've been raised in but then also having a lot of residual hang-ups from how I was taught to measure success as a child in the public school system, in the United States and in general as a working class person. So. It has definitely uncovered a lot of areas for more growth. And while I've accepted that growth as an ongoing thing, it's even something that I discussed in the book that it's really crucial for us to get comfortable with that fact that there is no finish line in order for revolutionary change to really have a chance to take hold in our lives.

But still I've been finding this particular experience to be a real catalyst for growth sometimes in an uncomfortable way but listening back to Jade's take on what it really looks like to do something creative or entrepreneurial was really helpful for me. So, I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

If you love it, please be sure to share it with other people. Now that the podcast is on the Substack it's so easy to forward this episode to others. Alright, let's get right into it.

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Yeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.

It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

Dalia:  Hello. Thank you so much for taking out the time to come on the show.

Jade: Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Dalia: When we did the livestream, I had nothing but positive feedback and there was just so much more that we could get into. But, you know, I didn't want us to make like a massive four-hour recording.

So, I'm so grateful that you're able to come back again. So, we could talk about a couple of other areas. So, we already know that you're a gifted artist and that you are really leading the way and helping us reclaim body positivity. Can you give us a little bit of a rundown of where body positivity started?

Then what happened to it? Like how it got hijacked and what you're working on now?

Jade: Yeah. So, I think the general kind of misconception about body positivity is that it is synonymous with self-love. It's all about reclaiming your body image for yourself and learning to love yourself. And obviously self-love is so, so important.

I'm a huge advocate for self-love. And I know how it affects your wellbeing. Actually, learn to love yourself. But body positivity is not in fact similar sort self-love. What if acidity is born from fat liberation movements which started to kind of back in the 20th century mid to late and it was mostly led by Black fat women and fat women in general as well, just leading the way in actually reclaiming their bodies.

And just making the world know that they were tired of not having their needs as fat woman looked after of you know, medical discrimination, stopping them from getting the care that they needed of constantly being told that their bodies were wrong and needed fixing And, you know, moving into kind of the early 2000s, and then obviously the rise of social media platforms and Instagram in particular, that sort of led to this movement of Black fat women and fat women and femmes and people who lived in marginalized bodies actually saying, do you know what, we want to show people what our lives are like, that we're proud to live in our fat bodies and that we're reclaiming them for ourselves. So, then body positivity was then born into this community of people online just saying we're here. We deserve to be here. And look at us just living our best lives in our bodies exactly as they are.

Which was beautiful for the time that it lasted. But with a lot of big movements, it always comes to the point where capitalism sweeps in, and corporations always try to find ways to make money out of movements. And I think, you know, that was the start of the decline of body positivity where of course, you know, we want fat people to get the bag and, you know, making their money from their movements.

And that was great at the start, but actually as it started to being capitalized on, it also started being co-opted. And that was when we started to see the body positivity that we have today, where if you search body positivity online, you're mostly see slim white able-bodied women claiming self-love and claiming body positivity without knowing what body positivity really means.

Dalia: That just makes so much sense. And it brings up a really big question. When it comes to people who are trying to do work, you're part of a movement. It affects you. It affects a population you belong to, but as we all know anybody who's trying to affect change in the world around them it can be very time-consuming.

So, for it to be sustainable, it's really helpful if you're also able to earn an income working in that area. But how do you strike that balance of the need to survive, the fact that we all deserve to be able to take care of ourselves and live somewhat comfortably, and the desire to stop capitalism from completely running our lives.

Someone made a point to me online recently that they personally didn't believe that there's any way to ethically make money because you're participating in a really broken system. But I also thought that was very convenient for them to say, because they have access to generational wealth. So, they technically can opt out of actively trying to support themselves.

And so, it's like, okay. So where does that leave the rest of us who also know what it's like to live with intergenerational poverty and knowing that that is not it. Like that is not where we want to be.

And you're also so limited as far as how much energy you can put into effecting larger change when you don't know where your next meal is coming from or how to keep a roof over your head from one week to the next.

Jade: Yeah, I think, you know, that is a lot of problem for a lot of activists and advocates in all sorts of movements. There is no one right answer. Honestly, everyone is just doing their best to stand by their beliefs and their morals and the goals that they have. Whilst also caring for their own needs and the needs of their family.

I think for me, I've realized that when I first started within self-love and then into body positivity movements. I was in that mindset of, you know, any opportunity that comes my way. I just want to grab it because I'm helping to perpetuate the message that I want to get out there whilst also looking after my financial needs.

But then actually there's a beautiful woman on social media @michellehopewell over the last year. She's really inspired me to be looking at, actually am I questioning the companies and the people that I want to work with and looking into what are their morals, what are their ethics? Are they standing by the communities they claim to be standing by what are the motivations behind the campaigns and the things that they want to be running?

And actually, realizing that I'm empowered to question that and by questioning that and by looking into in great depth the people that I want to work with, I can be selective about the work that I take on. And actually, you know, choose to work with communities and seek out communities that I want to work with.

But of course, again, I understand that there's a huge amount of privilege within that, to be able to pick and choose who you work with. I would say to people, if you have that ability to actually turn down work, when it comes up if you feel like that there's some ethical issues surrounding that, then that is a choice you might consider it.

But at the end of the day, it's all about you as an individual and what you're doing for the communities that you're trying to work for. So as long as you're standing by the morals and as long as you're conveying those within your work. I think that's the most you can do.

Dalia: I think that answer's really helpful. And the nuance there, that's one of the biggest differences between kind of a white supremacy culture, very misogynistic or patriarchal way of viewing everything is that under that system, there's a definitive right, a definitive best. And then everything else is trash, right?

When in reality, everything is more nuanced than that. And all of our lived experiences are so distinct. We need to give ourselves room to make individualized decisions and understand that maybe the right answer for you will shift and change over time as you have changes in other areas of your life, maybe with income, maybe with having better support, having better options.

And that's okay too. It doesn't really serve us to beat ourselves up for trying to do good things worrying, am I doing good things the absolute perfect way, the right way?

There is no absolute perfect or right way to do much of anything. So, yeah, I think that's a really helpful answer is to understand that there is no one answer.

Jade: Yeah, I think we've lost this understanding and you know, honoring the gray area in a lot of topics there is everything isn't always yes or no, black or white, it isn't always, you know, there was a correct answer and there's a wrong answer in reality that everything in life, it's a spectrum. And, you know, we can only do our best to seek out the right answer for us.

We can only do our best to stand by our communities. You know, and also, you know, the whole idea of cancel culture and, you know, you did one thing wrong and now you instantly have to be ashamed of yourself and there is no redeeming yourself from it. We're always learning. We're always growing. And I think so long as we're always striving to do our best, and it's almost, we're always willing to listen and learn and always do better than that is the best that we can do.

Dalia: Yeah. And I think it's really helpful when, when your goal is to communicate with someone or to try to do something collaborative with someone and, you know, you'll have to deal with them on an ongoing basis. So, let's say. You know, it's a coworker or it's a family member or someone that, you know, you can't just cancel them and keep it moving.

We really want to call people in and give people room to make mistakes and be imperfect. And at the same time, I'm all about the accountability, like you said with companies and individuals reaching out to you, being able to look and see, do you really seem sincere based on your previous behavior? And even then you're looking at a pattern of behavior, not necessarily cutting off opportunities or people based on one thing, but just the same, you know, if it feels like a hard no for you and a boundary, and it's not like this person or entity or organization has to be in your life, you know, you can dismiss them and make more room for other folks. So again, it's like, both its yes and instead of just one or the other, which is really interesting to me, I saw some, well, you're always seeing so much pushback and back and forth about the concept of cancel culture and some people really just wanting to never be held accountable for anything.

But at the same time also seeing some people going over the top and asking people who are being preyed upon by a system to be held responsible for responding to the system. So again, so much more nuanced and complicated than what most people want to deal with.

Yeah,

Jade: absolutely. I think things like that, they always have their place, you know, we do have to hold people accountable and people should want to be held accountable as well, because again, If you're striving to be better and do better in everything you do, you cannot expect to be above reproach and actually, you know, be told what you're doing in this situation isn't okay where you can do better. If you're not open to that I would question why I would question why, and are you really aware of the privilege that you hold in these situations? You know, so it, I definitely think that it does have this place It's again, it's, it's just nuances. It's about understanding that everything is not yes or no. It's like you say yes, and.

Dalia: Yeah. Speaking of everything not being yes or no. Before the call started, we were talking about the beauty and the challenges of trying to be self-sufficient in your business, living off of your talents or your gifts and it always being put out there at least to millennials and gen Z as the ultimate dream, because, you know, later in the gen X era, people were starting to have the freedom and the time to even think about, maybe my work should light me up.

Maybe my work should be an extension of my life's purpose. Right. And then we lead even harder into that. And we're like, if this job doesn't light me up, I got to get out of here. It's trash and I need to be self-employed and everything's going to be great once I'm self-employed. And then once we actually get into trying to live the dream. We realize it's really challenging as well. And yeah. Can you speak to a little bit of your journey with realizing number one, that your art could be used to support a bigger social movement? And even maybe before that realizing that art was going to be a big part of your life, what did that look like for you?

Jade: Oh, well, I never thought that art would be a big part of my life in terms of my personal wellbeing and my mental health it always has been because it's always been an escape for me and a way to express myself. I mean, even when I was a child I did art therapy for a time just to help me cope with the feelings and emotions I didn't necessarily understand always been quite artistic as opposed to a more logical person so in that respect, it has always been important to me, but in terms of my financial security, I never felt that art would play a part in that because it was kind of drilled into me that that was impossible.

In terms of schooling and things like that, you know, it was always look for the logical career options. You know, the types of careers that people are expected to go for rather than the creative type, you know, that sort of wishy-washy career, as people seem to think it is, especially here in the UK. So, you know, I didn't think that I'd be able to do art as a career and actually it was only when I think about a year and a half ago, I started to get back into my art. And at the time I was teaching myself, I didn't have to be a perfectionist and that I could love my art for what it is rather than trying to make it something that it just wasn't. And I just had a real sense of fulfillment from just allowing myself to express myself through my art.

And you know, I had people express that they actually really appreciated my art for what it was, and that was really affirming for me. Okay, well, maybe there might be more people out there who might be interested in what I do. And so, as a creative expression medium body positivity obviously is incredibly important to me.

So, it just felt natural to incorporate the two. In fact, I didn't even realize I was doing it until people were saying to me, wow, you know, I haven't seen fat bodies and Black bodies depicted in this way before, or at least not as much as we should be seeing it. And I was like, wow, I didn't even realize I was doing it.

Dalia: Oh, that is so, so cool. That's definitely not the answer I expected, but then when you make the point that, of course everyone had told you, like artists starve, I don't know why that didn't occur to me because I keep seeing people make it work. Maybe like over the last 10 years, I almost forgot that that's what we were all told.

I wanted to be a writer since elementary school, even though I grew up in an incredibly racist public school system, even in that environment, teachers kept telling me, oh, I feel like, you know, she's going to be a writer, but all of the adults in my life are like, ha ha. Why? Because you want to starve like that doesn't even make sense.

Don't listen to them. They're just blowing smoke. Don't pay attention to that and it's taken almost. 30 years to come back around to what I wanted to do in the first place, which is very, very strange. So, kudos to you for coming back so quickly before you got like deep, deep, deep, into a career that maybe didn't light you up as much.

 The way it's usually depicted in movies and in books is that artists have a tortured relationship with their art. And since you were using art as a self-expression and self-soothing tool, have you had any stickiness around your relationship with your art?

Jade: I think in terms of art was always really personal for me.

So, I'm trying to make it into a career and make it productive. Oh, I hate productivity. I hate it with a passion. So, you know, when it sort of felt like I had to do things on a schedule and I had to jump. Create create, create and create for other people rather than creating for myself. I had a moment of do I even want to do this anymore?

But actually, I tried to pull myself back out of that again, and I'm not creating to a schedule. My Etsy store I had planned to update it every two months. It has been three. I still have not updated it because, you know, I haven't created what I want to create yet. And I'm just leaving space for myself to create as I want to.

And not as I feel like I should, or I have to because I always find that the art that I create on a whim is art that other people appreciate the most. And the art that I love the most. So. I'm sort of sticking to that, but of course, in terms of actually being financially sustainable, that's, you know, not quite as sustainable as I would like it to be, but, you know, again, that's what we were talking about before people don't talk about those elements of creative careers in terms of, you know, living the dream, you know, if you're self-employed, then you're living the dream, but actually in reality it is very stressful and very unpredictable.

And there's parts of that I absolutely love, but there's parts of it that keeps you up at night, completely stressed out of my mind. So, you know, there's two elements to it.

Dalia: Yeah. I can understand now why some people, they have their passions, but they know for a fact that they want to work for someone else.

They know that they want to be able to demand their paycheck when its due regardless of what has changed in the world around them, right? Like you don't get to decide whether or not you pay your employees. They know that check is coming on a schedule. And when you're self-employed, you know, there's just so many different things that can affect what your income is going to be like from one month to the next.

When I was a kid, my parents always it's, it's funny because. It seems like, no matter what your parents tell you, you're probably going to be skeptical about it. Like, so you hear like some kids who are raised by very creative parents who always lived off of their own talents, pushing their kids to do the same.

And they're like, I don't know about that. And then they decide I want to go work for the man and then vice versa. But my dad had a really stable job, but it was for fairly large organization. And so when they went through a period of deciding to tighten their belts and get rid of people who had more experience, so they could pay younger people half as much to do the same thing, he ended up deciding to go his own way, took his severance package and decided self-employment was a better fit for how he and my mom wanted to live.

And they've always tried to stress us that the security you feel when you're waiting on that one check from your company is an illusion, like we've seen living through this global pandemic. Checks that seemed really, really dependable evaporated into thin air. And in theory, when you work for yourself and you have multiple clients or multiple contracts, you lose one, but you're not down to zero income, but at the same time, it just is a lot of mental work to accept that instability and flexibility are normal and have to be part of our lives as adults if we ever want to have any sense of peace around our income. It's such a struggle because when you do work for someone else and you get that check at the same time every month, you completely buy into the illusion that you have security.

Jade: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I just, I think there is no one right answer when it comes to either working for yourself, working with someone else or finding that balance between the two. I think for me having a bit of both works really well because the stresses I get from one or alleviated by the other and vice versa.

So, I worked part-time for someone else and I worked part-time for myself. And I always know, as far as I'm aware that I'm getting my monthly to check from working for someone else, but I always have my business to fall back on should that something ever go wrong with that role. And you know, when it comes to creating, it does give me more creative license.

 Because it means that I'm not relying on my income from my own business, you know, to get me through the month. And I think we have this sort of expectation on people when they are self-employed that, you know, you have to focus, you always see those things, you know, those like motivational quotes and things online when they're like, you know, you have to dedicate your whole time, like stop splitting your focus, just focus on the thing that you want.

Go out there, grab it, manifest it, all these other things. And you know, it's like, that's great. I love that mentality, but is it realistic? Because I know the stresses that my business brings me and, you know, If I focused on it full time, I don't know if I could deal with that overwhelming stress of not knowing if I was financially, financially secure.

So, I think you have to have a little bit of understanding for people, regardless of what a job is, regardless if they're working for someone else or work for themselves, it's great to have dreams and hopes and motivations, but I think realism also does play a part. And you know, not just expecting people to give up security for the sake of creative freedom, I think it is no, it's just.

You can't, it's not sustainable and it's a lovely dream, but I just don't know if we can always obtain it straight away. But we can take those steps to obtaining it further in the future.

Dalia: Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest gaps is that it's presented as something that we can make happen in a really narrow window of time when I think in reality it's normal for a business to be in the red and the negative for maybe the first three years. Like that used to be an understanding that that's normal, but because the internet supports the illusions that are like, zeitgeist we think that people wake up one day and realize, you know, that the hustle culture is where it's at and the magically by the end of the week, they're making millions of dollars.

And I don't think that's really a thing. And it really makes sense to me, especially for people who hold identities that are being marginalized in that environment, that they're living in to understand that if you are under a lot of stress or pressure, that may be additional stress from having to work through fears around security and stability is going to be a major obstacle for you. That may be the person who wrote that post about like staying focused and manifesting your dreams. Maybe they didn't have those other factors. And that statement made perfect sense to them and their life. And you even think about how will people regard you if you're in a large body and you have brown skin and you are an artist and you're living off of that art and things, don't go quite as planned and you go to get support from some social system or safety net that exists in your country, how will you be perceived versus someone doing exactly the same thing as you and a smaller body with white skin? You know, even the reluctance to be in a position where you might need help is influenced by our identities.

It

Jade: really is. I mean, you know, up until.

Literally this month I was on benefits. I was on called universal credit. And you know, in a lot of ways, if I wasn't on benefits, I wouldn't be able to start my business because they actually helped me to get the initial funding to do that. But that was a source of shame or embarrassment for me because I'm very much hyper aware of how people might perceive me because of my body. And I didn't want to live up to that fat, lazy stereotype of, oh, you'd rather just live on benefits rather than working hard. I think for me, because I, I am disabled. I have chronic illnesses. And also, I am, you know, I have a creative mindset, you know, I'm, I'm not someone who can be hyper-focused on manual activities my brain just doesn't work that way.

And, you know, people might think that's an excuse, but really that is just how my brain works and how my body works. We're all different in those ways. So, for me, you know, working for myself has provided me with the opportunity of working in a way that suits me and looks at myself. No, I'm not interested in hustle.

And I think people would be horrified, but you know, oh, you don't want to work hard. You just want to be lazy, whatever. And again, I feel that stereotype, especially living in a larger body and especially with being disabled as well, because again, I know within the working classes in the UK, there is this idea of if you're on any sort of disability benefit that you're just trying to scam the government out of money.

So, there's all these stereotypes around different body types. Hustling doesn't interest me. I think we have this very odd colonialist mindset that you have to work yourself into the ground, but you have to work until you, you, your health has just deteriorated and only then are you benefiting society only then are you worthwhile.

My wellbeing matters to me. I'm not interested in stressing myself out in making myself ill. So yeah, I want to work hard, but my perception of what working hard is not someone else's perception. And I think when it comes to things like being self-employed, there's this idea again, that if you're not working 60, 80 a hundred-hour weeks that you're not working hard enough. So, your failures are caused by you. It's no, that's all I can say to that. No, because we have to look after ourselves. You know, we're not just here to be placed on this earth to work. And then for that to be it, we have to live. We have to look after ourselves.

We have to find purpose in whatever way it works for us. So, hustle is great if someone's, if someone loves hustling absolutely go for it. Do that thing. For me, I want to look after myself. I want to enjoy whatever it is that I do in all capacities. And often that just means slowing down.

Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that's such a, that is a whole word like that is such a crucial message.

And what's so funny is when you really look at how people perform at their peak, following your body signals and knowing when to slow down and knowing when you're just not feeling it, you know, you sit down to write something, you sit down to record something, and your energy is not there. If you make yourself sit there for eight hours, it doesn't get any better.

Sometimes what you need to do to get the best product is to leave. Stop what you're doing. Go do something different. Do something that activates a different part of your consciousness. Relax. Sometimes you find, when you sit down to do something that you thought you'd been putting off, you'd actually been ruminating on it in a positive way, in the back of your mind all week.

And then when you sat down all the information you have been kind of letting simmer comes back to the surface. So sometimes even, or concepts of what is working, it doesn't fit the reality of the situation. You don't have to be working in a way that someone walking by would be able to validate, you know, if you have your own creative process and you honor that and you're willing to respect yourself enough to tailor your life to what works for you. Then your productivity may actually surprise you like how much better your productivity is when you respect your body.

Jade: Yeah. And I also think it's really important to have a really strong sense of self and to work on understanding of self, because a lot of people, again, will look at you and tell you things about yourself.

You know, you're not working hard enough, you're not working in the right way, but if you understand yourself, you can acknowledge those times when you are actually, you know, being productive without being physically productive.

And also knowing the ways that you work might be different to other people and that those ways are completely valid. So, you know, a lot of things, when I was younger things that people would say, speak of me, quite negative things about the way I worked. But for instance saying that I'm, you know, flaky or I don't commit to certain projects and I felt that for a long time and I am still working through those feelings now, but what I recognize now is those things that might make someone consider me to be flaky or to not commit are also the things that on new projects get me to absolutely push through and bring ideas together and pull them into something and, you know, birth them into the world in a way that I wouldn't have been able to perceive if I didn't have those qualities, they allow me to multitask.

They gave me the energy and the drive. You know, when I have short deadlines, I am never more committed when I have a short deadline, because that's how my mindset works. So, we all work in different ways and all those ways are completely valid. And actually, when it comes to then collaborating on projects, you know, you get to work with people who have work in different ways to you and you all compliment each other.

So just because you don't work in the same way that someone else does doesn't mean that you're not valid, actually it makes you an amazing team member and an amazing contributor once you know what those qualities are and how to make them work for you for the better.

Dalia: That's the key is knowing what those qualities are.

And I appreciate that you acknowledge that maybe you've been trained to devalue working style or your creativity, maybe that is not just something you're going to be able to wake up and say, oh, now I know that this is valid. Maybe it will be a process. Maybe you'll really have to push to work through it.

And with some of the obstacles, we have mindset obstacles from childhood. This may be something we're always working through. You know, you kind of go in cycles, you go through phases where you understand your worthiness and then something rocks you and you take a couple steps back and then a couple of steps forward.

That's natural too. Thinking we're going to magically erase everything that conditioning has done to us up until now isn't really realistic. And I think that also ties back into how there's no nuance in a lot of the bod pos things we see out there that you're going to erase all of your conditioning and love yourself completely every single day and want all these pictures of yourself from strange angles and want to share them with the world. Like that’s just, just not the reality for most people. It may not even be the reality for the people posting those photos and some people. And I don't say this to be a hater, but some people aren't even posting images that they haven't tampered with.

So that's something to consider too, just because someone puts out an image and they use all the right hashtags and it looks like, oh, they're revealing something that it's brave of them to show like that one roll. That doesn't mean there was no airbrushing in other areas. Everything could be an illusion, right.

And whatever that person is comfortable with, that's fine. But at the same time, if we internalize that I have to be at this point where I've just going to take pictures from all these angles and post them and feel great about it not understanding that that person curated that image too, that puts you in a really tough spot.

And you will end up being too hard on yourself as you try and work toward greater self-acceptance.

Jade: Yeah. And you know, like in terms of social media it’s a highlight reel, regardless of the types of content that people are posting, you know, whether it be body positivity and all the different forms of what people perceive as body positivity.

People are posting the highlights of their journey with their bodies and with the, you know, overcoming conditioning they don't share those moments when they've actually, you know, reverted to an old mindset, or they're still trying to overcome old patterns because it doesn't fit into the image of ourselves that we've curated online. And actually, this idea that we overcome conditioning, but we're still living in that conditioning. It is constantly being forced at us all the time. So, I think there's no way to overcome the conditioning all we're doing is constantly pushing back against it and finding ways to rewrite the narrative for ourselves and for others in particular within body positivity.

And I think, again, that's another mistake that people make in this comparison to body positivity and self-love because if I was gonna compare body positivity to anything, which I don't like to do, but if I was going to, it would be body neutrality.

Body positivity is the understanding that all bodies are equal and deserve to be treated equitably within our society.

There is no good or bad within body positivity. It's not about creating a beauty ideal, in which all bodies are accepted. What it's actually about is removing the body ideal understanding that we shouldn't be hierarchically categorizing bodies. Bodies are just bodies. You know, they don't define us, and we can't put moral value on them.

And I think body neutrality is far more important in that sense than self-love because it's understanding that you don't have to look at yourself every morning and go, oh my God, I love myself. Let me take a selfie immediately from all these different angles. It's not actually saying I am neither here nor there about my body, because I'm know that I'm more than my body.

I am most important. And people might perceive things about me because of my body but as long as I understand how I perceive my body is enough, that is what matters. And as long as I am carving out space, for my body to be seen and heard and valued for exactly what it is and as long as I'm searching for equal treatment within any space that I take up, that is what's important.

So, I think, you know, even if we take away the fact that body positivity has been co-opted, the fact that it's being compared to self-love again, is really problematic in that sense of making people feel like they have to love themselves in order to be body positive. Cause they don't.

Dalia: That's such a helpful reframe and that makes so much more sense with the reality of our lives and the fact that we're still in environments that are hostile to our bodies. So pushing back is the goal like, and that is as far as it's probably going to get for a while and seeing the ways in which corporations and other people want to use our sense of self to commodify us is really helpful when it comes to understanding that it's most important that we have a strong relationship with our sense of self and knowing that we are more than our body and more than these individual things that marketers want us to focus on correcting and taking your body back and really living in it on your own terms. It's a vehicle for you to do all the things that you're on this planet to do it isn't a self-improvement project to spend all your days on.

Jade: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I know that's a concept that when I'm talking to people about body positivity, I often try to get them to understand that your body is a vessel. It is a vehicle for navigating with the world, for communicating with the world.

It is not the be-all and end-all of who and what you are. We place so much worth on aesthetics of a body when the ascetics of the body are the least important, part of all the functions that it has for us. And sure, I think that's a deeper conversation that doesn't really go into body positivity, but in terms of understanding self-worth and having a strong sense of self, it is a really important concept to grasp.

Because on days when I am not happy with my body because I understand that it doesn't fit into these Eurocentric beauty ideas that we have and that, you know, for the rest of my life, I have to deal with the fact that maybe we'll never get to a point within society in my lifetime where my body is accepted. But what I can do for myself is understand that regardless of what society is telling me about my body and about my worth because of my body, I can push back against that because I understand deeper than that, that the conditioning that we are facing does not define us.

Dalia: Yeah, that's extremely helpful when it comes to work. In online spaces, knowing that it's a highlight reel and also knowing that people are in different stages of their journey toward understanding the things that you're teaching about, how do you navigate creating boundaries and creating safer spaces for the people in your community?

Jade: I think the first thing is that I don't engage in any kind of troll like behavior. I used to, I used to feel like because of the privilege that my body holds in certain senses I want it to have the capacity to be able to speak for those who might not be able to have the resources and tools to speak for themselves in these situations and actually try and reeducate people wherever possible in whatever way they were coming at me.

So, when I used to have people comment on the things that I was doing online or engaged with members of my community, under my posts, I would always try and reeducate and engage in conversation. But I realized that there are people who don't want to engage in these conversations they're either so wrapped up in the conditioning that they've faced, that their self-hatred is pouring outwards onto other people or, they really do have a deep disdain for my communities. That's, that's none of my business, you know, if, if that is how they want to present themselves to the world, I don't need to engage with that. So, I've set a really strong boundary in that sense of actually saying it's not my responsibility to engage with that person.

So, I don't at all. I block any comments that come up, which are clearly antagonistic. And I focus my energy on engaging with the people who want to be there and who are searching for better for themselves. And it's also not just to protect me, but it's to protect anyone who comes onto my page because they don't need to be subject to the nasty, cruel comments that people feel the need to express.

So that's sort of a hard boundary that I have recently had set in the last year, kind of a firm for myself that that's not my business to be doing that. And then in terms of, you know, sometimes I don't have the tools and resources to help people through something because I'm working for it myself.

And often you'll find in community spaces that you're always triggering things for each other areas of your life that need healing, which is wonderful and it's really important for continued self-growth and self-development. But also, you have the hold space to yourself first. So, in those instances, I'll often say to people, I really appreciate you coming to me with this.

Unfortunately, I can't help you with this right now, but you know, please continue to be in this space and it's not because I don't want to be there for you in this moment. It's just that I don't have the resources myself to do that.

Dalia: That's really helpful knowing that you have to hold space for yourself first and knowing that that is the nature of community, is that we continually hold up mirrors to other people and trigger growth in them, and sometimes it doesn't feel great. So that can make being in community a challenge, but it really is a place where so much healing happens, but where I've seen it go kind of off the rails is where you don't have someone who's leading the conversation who can help guide the community with community agreements, community standards, like what we don't entertain here, what the space is not for.

I've seen a lot of people lately, especially who say they want to grow. And I believe they believe they want to grow, but they're going to all the wrong places, asking for people to guide them when there are so many people who have created resources meant for those folks who are on that one-on-one level stuff with their anti-racism, with their body liberation, with their fat liberation.

There are places dedicated to that. There are resources dedicated to that. And when you jump into a community where people have gotten beyond the concept of, oh, are these types of humans worthy of care and respect? That's not the place for you to show up asking, like, but are you sure though? Because I heard that bodies have to be this one way to be worthy of belonging and respect.

Jade: Yeah. And I think, you know, I would hope, expect, I guess, from any community members that show up in my space, that they have an understanding of that. And obviously that's not always the case. And depending on what's been going on for me and how many instances I've had of people maybe overstepping their boundaries in certain spaces.

I do have time to talk to people and just say, you know, maybe it's good for you to go away and do some research on this before you come back into this community space, because we've moved beyond this conversation. Sometimes I don't have the kind of emotional freedom and I don't have the emotional capacity to be able to have those conversations.

In which case I just step away from it. Because again, I, I created this space for myself first for my own self-healing first, and then it moved beyond that and it moved into advocacy, but I will never put my mental health into detriment because of dealing with other people. But again, that's not to say that people can't get things wrong sometimes, which is why I always try and give people the benefit of the doubt.

But, you know, if someone's continuing to show up into a space and they've been told multiple times, we're not having this conversation and they continue to have that conversation. Yeah, I just, you know, I have, I have a limit when it comes to that.

Dalia: That's a good model for the rest of us, that it is okay and crucial if you want to do advocacy work and if you want to lead community spaces to prioritize your own wellbeing. Because the work is not sustainable without that.

Jade: Yeah. And I would expect. Or hope for that for anyone sharing the body positivity space and the online space. I think we do have to be looking after our mental health, because it can become overwhelming.

We can expect too much from ourselves. We can expect perfection from ourselves. And I think when it gets to that point of expecting perfection from ourselves, I've seen instances where people start to create another false sense of identity where they don't even realize when they might be causing problems and being problematic within the communities that they are trying to be a voice of reason within.

So, checking back in with yourself and reconnecting with yourself and understanding, you know, maybe I don't have the right words, the right tools for this situation, because we're never going to be completely perfect, we're always learning. I don't know everything about body positivity because I wasn't around for its conception.

I've had to learn and research all the things that I know about it as a community member and grow with it over time. So, when there are instances where I don't know things, either I go out of my way to research it and bring back the information that I found or I just have to turn around and say, I don't know.

I really don't know. I need to do this work for myself before I can bring you into this space with me. And you do see instances of people in different communities, not just body positivity where that's not being done, because we trick ourselves into this thinking, we have to be perfect. And we have to know everything because this expectation has been placed upon us.

It's not, it's just not realistic. And I think reconnecting with yourself and holding space for yourself helps to prevent that as much as possible. And also, then being open to accountability and being open to being told, maybe you're wrong in this instance is also important for keeping our privilege in check and for making sure that we're doing the work that we want to be doing rather than what we think we're doing.

Dalia: Yes, do you have any practices that you can share that are good for restoring your sense of being grounded? Like after you've had a negative interaction with somebody online

Jade: For me, I, I have lots of little silly sort of practices that I do because I think they're so human that they sort of, they just make sense to me.

They might not make sense from people, but little things. Like whenever I pass a mirror, I always make sure to make a face at myself. And this seems like such an odd thing when I tell this to people. It takes away the seriousness of all connection mural reflection, because I don't think it's normal for us to see our reflection as much as we do.

It's not really. Ingrained within us to be staring at mirrors all the time or seeing pictures of ourselves all the time. So, whenever I see my reflection, I'll just pull a face or a smile at myself. Just little things like that, that creates a positive interaction with my reflection and grounds me within myself to be like, whatever stresses are going on, whatever kind of negative interactions that I've had that might make me feel negatively about my self-worth or about my body they're sort of irrelevant on the grand scheme of things. That one interaction does not define me, does not define my work. And so just doing little small things like that to connect with myself really make a big difference. And then as kind of a spiritual healer for me doing things like meditation and doing things like you can visualize body scans and connecting with your body and just feeling at home in your own skin.

Those sorts of things are really great for just feeling grounded within yourself. And also, being outside whenever possible, obviously is really helpful as well, just for connecting with the world on a wider scale, rather than focusing on the internet, because it is still a very small community, even though it seems like it connects us to everything, it can become a bit of an echo chamber.

So, stepping outside of that and back into the real world is definitely, really helpful as well.

Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that really resonates with the body scans. Do you guide people through those or is it, can you show us how to do that?

Jade: It's a little bit of a longer process that I'd be able to share with you right now.

But in terms of I was running meditation classes and it will be something that I'm doing again. But you can find body scans and guided meditation during a body scan online. Or if you just search on YouTube, there's lots of wonderful ones. When it comes to meditation, I think the voice is the most important.

So, finding a voice that resonates with you and that you feel comfortable and secure with, because it is mostly auditory led. So, you have to find one that works for you. Often people find one meditation, don't connect with it and then think they hate meditation. But in reality, it's just, they haven't connected with the right person.

So just keep searching for one that works for you or write your own, just focus on connecting with the body, the sensations that are around you. I like to imagine my energy coming together as a ball of light in my chest, and then that light moving to different areas of my body and just allowing myself to feel that, connecting with the ground, those sorts of things.

They just help to center you. And help you see your body as more than its aesthetics and actually understanding all the things that our body does for us on a day-to-day basis. And that's, you know, as someone with chronic illnesses, it can be difficult to appreciate your body when you feel like it's almost working against you.

But those little moments of connecting back with myself really helped me to have appreciation for all the things that my body does do as opposed to kind of berating it for the things that it doesn't do.

Dalia: That's really helpful. Where do people keep up with you so that they can be in touch when you start offering those again?

Jade: So, I do have a Facebook page it's called a Safe Space to Grow. There hasn't been much on there for a few months. Cause we were talking about before we started I kind of needed to create space for myself to focus on certain projects. So that has taken a back seat to now. I do also share sort of mini meditations to my Instagram page @bodiposipoet. I'm hoping to start showing them short.

Really short one-minute snippets as well to TikTok at some point, just to add a little bit of sort of body positivity and grounding into that space as well, because it can be a little bit chaotic at times.

Dalia: Yeah, absolutely. Just a few people who've done that really creatively since, you know, the video just starts over and over again, the way they did it, it feels like a full meditation, like as long as you want it to be because of where starts over. So, I love that idea. We'll be looking out for that. Are you, is it the same handle on TikTok?

Jade: Yes. It's actually @artbybodiposipoet, because I was originally using it for my artwork and will continue to use it for that purpose as well. But yeah, I'm sure if anyone wants to find it, they should be able to.

Dalia: Wonderful, thank you so much for coming on. I'll definitely have the links to your Etsy store and all of those other places.

Jade: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I love that every time we talk, there's always something new and different that comes out of the conversation. So, yeah, I've loved it. Thank you so much.

Okay. I know it wasn't just me. Was that, or was that not just packed full of gems? Jade really dropped a lot of knowledge on us in this episode. Be sure to look for Jade on TikTok and on Etsy. I am really pulling back with social media these days thinking about how to use my energy in the most effective way for all of the things that I want to do so you probably won't find me on social media.

But you will be able to find me in the comments on Substack. I'm working on building community there, doing coaching asynchronously there because that's a way to make myself accessible to a lot more people at once. So, I hope you will check out that option that is for the supporting members. Of the show and the body liberation for all community in general.

I will have links below in the show notes to give you more details about that. If you feel called to check it out. Thank you so much for joining me. I will talk to you next time.

Consider this as an invitation to take your healing journey and personal development journey to the next level.

Marina Nabão is embodiment coach dedicated to supporting people through a trauma-informed journey of somatic healing and empowerment. She is a Brazilian, biracial, Black, cis-woman living in the SF Bay Area, CA.

As a daughter of a psychologist and a philosopher, curiosity and the search for a broader understanding of life is her natural state. So it’s no surprise that her own search to understand her inner world and grow in all areas of life – professional, relational, affective, sexual, and spiritual – have taken her on a very rich journey.

This episode we discuss

* How trauma remains in the body

* Stages of healing

* Healing through meaningful self-connection

* Somatic work for non-binary folx

Episode Resources

https://marinanabao.com/

www.daliakinsey.com

Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

Dalia: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I'm your host and decolonize wellness and body image coach Dalia Kinsey. I help queer folks of color heal their struggles with shame self-acceptance through nutrition and self-care so they can live the most fierce, liberated, and joyful version of their lives.

Today I have a special guest on the show to talk about a subject that's really been calling my attention a lot lately. I have been rereading The Body Keeps the Score and thinking about the ways that trauma and unprocessed emotions get trapped in the body.

I've noticed myself some very strong reactions to seemingly minor incidents in my life at work clearly connected to previous negative experiences and racialized trauma is just like any other kind of trauma. You can have issues with purging these negative sensations from your body and having a very powerful instantaneous, negative trauma, like response to anything that reminds you of these past experiences.

So, embodiment work and focusing on the body and those sensations and moving them along so that I can have a reaction that feels manageable to stressful things is what I'm focused on right now. So, I’m so excited to have Marina here, Marina works with them, body meant and trauma of all kinds. The things that Marina discusses, and this episode will be useful for everyone, but very useful for somebody working with trauma, you've already gotten other treatment for that you still aren't feeling peace around, because the embodiment piece has been missing from your healing work so far.

This is such a good conversation. Let's jump right in.

Body Liberation for All Theme

Yeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.

It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

Dalia: Hello. Thank you for being on the show.

Marina: Yeah. Thanks for having me so excited to have this conversation.

Dalia: I am excited, always to connect with other folks of color from all over the world, but in particular folks of color that do healing work that come from different cultural backgrounds, especially anybody connected to the diaspora.  I just get super excited about that, because it's interesting to me to see how as you change, as you kind of become part of the country that your ancestors were pulled into and you become a blend of the different peoples that are from there. And then the people who colonize that area, we all have really interesting ways of manifesting some of the old healing traditions, you know, that we have no possible conscious way of connecting to.

It's just beautiful to see how nothing is ever lost and keep coming back to the surface and it looks different on different people and in different parts of the world.

Marina: Yeah. I love that cause I love that integration of the different ways that we can approach healing and really reclaiming the old ways of healing that have big been parts of generations of the original people of the planet.  

Dalia: Right. Right, exactly. So I know you're based in the U S now and you're on the west coast. But can you tell us a little bit about where you were raised and when you were growing up, did you have a connection to healing practices or what was that relationship like with you?

Marina: Yeah. Yeah, so I was raised in Brazil that's where I'm from and I think that's part of my upbringing was connected to receiving what we can call unusual healing.  There are many people who are, I don't even know how to say this in English I think it would be something like ‘the blessers’. So these old grandmas who actually developed such a beautiful connection with themselves and their intuition and their spiritual guides that they can bless other people. And we’d go there to receive a blessing. Then they share something that they feel called to share around the ways that you are treating yourself. The food you are eating the people that you're hanging out with and things that you could do so that you would find more balance in your life.

So this is a big thing in Brazil, especially in communities where people are more integrated socially. So like Black communities, people who live in what we can call marginalized neighborhoods or something. And this has always been part of my life. I never even thought of a life without it.

That's what you do. You feel you're feeling off. You're not so sure. You are feeling sad then you communicate with one of these grandmas, they will share their wisdom. So that is one thing, the other is that my mom was always  into what we can call integrative medicine.

She was always into floral therapy, healing, our body and spirit, good eating habits, macrobiotic, whole food products, and things like that. So for me, I think part of my growing up was learning that our bodies have this self-healing capacity. That it's a matter of us being patient enough and aware enough to connect with it intentionally so that we can find ways to notice what a disease is trying to tell us, what a discomfort is trying to show us. To find ways to address the environment that is creating the disease, the environment that is creating discomfort not just the symptoms.  

Dalia: Now it makes so much sense, but you said something really crucial it's being patient enough to wait for it to work because that I think is one of the hallmarks between western medication when we approach our symptoms that way. And sometimes those don't even work as quickly as you want them to, but typically you can expect to see a change maybe that day, maybe in a week, maybe two weeks and a lot of other approaches because you're not just putting a band-aid on one symptom, you're trying to get to the root of the problem, it can take longer. So in a culture where we feel like we don't even have time to sit down and feel unwell. We don't have time to take one day off, then what do we do? So, what has it been like for you coming to the U.S. do you feel a big difference in the pace that we're living at running counter to the way the human body actually functions and thrives?

Marina: Oh my God. That was shocking. That was really shocking. To really notice this shift in the speed at which things happen here. Right. So, I don't know if I can speak for all Brazilians, but in our culture in general, we have this idea of the U.S as the land of opportunity, right? Hollywood sales that so beautifully to us.

So you come here, you're nobody, you come with a dollar in your pocket and then you become this millionaire, blah, blah, blah. You know, and also the fact that in order to do so, there are no boundaries, no limits to the amount of work that you do. Because if you want to be a self-made millionaire you have to put all of yourself in it.

Right? So there is this image, at least for me about the U.S. but it was not until I actually moved in here, and I didn't come here for work or anything. I came to the U.S. for love because my husband is American and that's how we ended up here. So it was very interesting to notice that everything is so fast.

It's boom, boom, boom. Now, now, now, yesterday, it's not today its yesterday.  And no wonder people are so stressed out. No wonder people are so disconnected from themselves. No wonder people feel so lonely because they can not even connect with themselves much less meaningfully connect with others, right?

So, when you say that here people don't have the time to rest or to take a day off. I would say, well, maybe that's actually why people are getting so sick. Maybe that's actually why people are feeling so, so many discomforts on a physical level, but also on a mental health level.

Dalia: Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And when we look at, when scientists look at other cultural groups that are living a lot longer than the average person in the United States, that's always a factor like prioritizing connecting to people, communicating with people and not prioritizing work over all other things, but that is a very, very American thing.

If you're not working, then who are you? And even when people introduce themselves, their identity centered around, do you do? And I can understand that if what you do is something that you were called to do like if your healer, your preacher, your something that's central to your belief system.

Okay, fine. I can understand that. But a lot of times people leave. Something that just signals to other people. I earn money and I work long hours because it has become a value here.

You mentioned something really interesting when we were talking before the call, when we were just getting to know each other, after we'd come across each other in a group it's focused on decolonizing your mindset around business, and it's led by an American person who really has made a difference in my life in how she explains how so much of what we believe about how business must be done. It's not the only way. And talking to you and hearing about how you've noticed that people who can't seem to get into their body who have issues with embodiment and that causes problems throughout your life.

And maybe on some level, I knew that, but nowhere near the level that you were explaining. So can you tell us about the work that you do and then we'll talk about how did he ended up doing this?

Marina: Yeah, so I like to call myself an embodiment coach and a somatic healer. The work that I do, basically it should help people reconnect with their bodies. It is to walk back into this connection with self  with intention, with awareness, with patients, with care that this body is sharing information all the time. That this body is much wiser than the mind at times and it's telling us what to do, how to do at what pace we should be doing things.

If we learn to integrate that that with the mind, the work that I do doesn't mean this disregarding the mind, it's about integration. It's about the combination of mind and body, and of course, giving space to spirituality in that connection. But to really allow people to notice that we can not just function from the neck up.

We can not just live our lives, thinking that we can think ourselves out of a disease, out of a discomfort out of, you know, all the things that people have been experience thing in terms of physical and mental. We actually need to be able to feel those in our bodies and from this space, learn to reconnect to make the changes that our bodies need so that we can lead a healthier life.

That is the gist of it. The big part, the big picture of it. And there is the trauma healing component of my work, because if we study what research has been showing us trauma lives in our bodies, right?

Trauma is not the experience. Trauma is actually our body's perception of or reaction to a life-threatening experience, to something that was too intense, too overwhelming, too difficult to handle.

And then our bodies trap that information and start responding to events, freeze,  fight, flight, fawn mode. So in order to heal evil trauma also should integrate the the body. We cannot talk ourselves out of trauma, right? Talking about trauma is only a piece of the healing process that happens when you're a further ahead in your healing.

First it's around connecting with your body, noticing how your body's responding to traumatic experiences and then finding ways to regulate your nervous system to discharge some of the energy of that trauma so that your body can find balance again. Right? So, but the beginning has to be about embodiment. It has to start with recognizing tension in the body and then from there we develop a somatic to healing trauma. If that makes sense…

Dalia: It does make sense. When I read The Body Keeps the Score. I felt like some of it, maybe we all knew intuitively, tiny bit. Right. But then to see someone study how deep the lasting effect is on the physical body when you're in a situation where you feel you have no control, or you literally have no control, and you're afraid you're going to die, that you could even lose sensation in extremities that had nothing to do with the incident. And we all heard about adverse childhood experiences and how that shortens your lifespan, not as a rule, but your chances are higher if you never have an opportunity to heal what that experience did to your body, how your body internalized, all of that fear. How did you even realize this was an area you wanted to work in? Because even if you interacted a lot with healers as a child, sometimes it's hard to see yourself that way, especially if those healers were like people almost had to live the experience, like you said, they're old grandmas, so it's like they took years and years and years to get it. So when did you understand that you, as a young person could also be working in a healing space?

Marina: Yeah. Well, I think it's a combination of factors first. My mom is a psychologist, which is a healing modality in a way. So I had that beautiful example and home. And I have been to healers myself to view my body, to heal my own traumas and to actually get to know myself better because healing is also about self-development. It's not just about feeling one specific thing, right? It's about learning more about ourselves. And for me, when I started, I was always curious about so many things in life.

And I started learning more about holistic sexuality. I've started doing workshops and programs and courses to learn, to recognize my body in a more loving and even spiritual perspective of this body as a sacred temple. And to for me to really tap into the deeper knowing of who I am in the deeper knowing of who I am in my mind, that leads me to reconnect with my spiritual self, right.

And by doing so I've found so much healing for myself. I've found so much empowerment for myself as a Black woman in a Latin country. Empowerment is a big, big word for us, right? Because of that so many things started shifting for me in terms of how I perceived myself, how I perceived the relationships that I had not just with other men, but the relationships that I had with friends, with family, the relationships I had that work. And so I was an executive in the corporate world that is dominated by white, straight, very conservative man, interesting place. And then noticing that I didn't fit there anymore.

That environment was not fulfilling me anymore. And, then I had this inner calling, this inner knowing that, you know, my life is going to change a lot and actually I want to  dedicate myself to supporting other women and non-binary people who have vulvas, because that's what I understand more of the female body that the vulvaed body.

And then I started transitioning and studying. I already had the business MBA because I was in business for 14 years and then started shifting gears into coaching. I did the ontological coaching training in Brazil at the same time. I got married to move here and did my sex love and relationship coaching training here.

And I've been supporting people since then. And it's been fabulous. And the idea that coming back to the body and connecting with sexuality, sexual desires, eroticism, what I understood that most people would come up with, come across traumas there, you know, things even that were healed or that were forgotten, because that's how the mind works as well.

Our brains protect us so much that they make us forget some of the traumatic experiences that so many of us have gone through. And this became a very big passion of mine to really be able to support women, to feel their central traumas. And it's been a very beautiful journey for me, very humbling as well. I feel very honored to be supporting people in, in this path and yeah, that's what I've been doing.

Dalia: It's amazing to me, how many entry points there can be to starting to reconnect to your body and how deep the symptoms go when you are disconnected. Because even though with my work as a holistic dietitian, I'm helping people use food and listening to their hunger, physical, and emotional hunger to reconnect to what their body's trying to tell them.

I had never thought about how many relationships will need to fall away if you actually start listening to what your body's telling you. And that, that in itself might be a reason why some people don't want to reconnect to their body because they wonder how will my life have to change if I actually listen to myself.

And what will that feel like? Is that something that is a source of resistance you come across and people

Marina: Yeah so much. I can see the faces of some people with shared that with me, like, oh, well who will I become then? If I go this deep into myself, I will have to face things that I am comfortably hiding under a rug, you know, so that I can live the way I've been living.

It's a path of truth. It’s a path of really facing the truth of who we are. And once you've faced the truths, making that judgements that we need to make in life to live in a way that is more fulfilling, right, and more fulfilling for whatever it looks like to a given person.

It's a path of tapping into one's authenticity. And I don't think everybody's prepared for that and that's okay. That's okay.

Dalia: Now, how long did it take you to accept that? Because that's something I feel like I struggle with. When I'm not ready to change, then it's fine. But when other people aren’t ready to change and I see where something could be of service. I'm just like, I don't get it. I don't get it. So when did you understand that?

Marina: When I really started understanding trauma, so I'm taking the somatic experiencing training, and this is focused on trauma healing from a somatic perspective. The deeper I went into understanding how trauma acts in our bodies and our minds in our behaviors in the way that we are enabled to lead our lives the more compassion I felt in my heart for myself and for those around me. So when I'm aware that trauma exists. So many people have trauma and they have no idea so there is a space in my heart that can easily understand why it is so scary to go through change.

Why it is so scary to connect with your body because your body has overwhelming and difficult memories stored there. So it makes a lot of sense for me when a person shares, Well, I, I don't know if I can live more lovingly, you know, this is not good. I'm not happy, but that's the way I've been living for so many years for so many decades. And I don't wish I can make that change.

When I hear someone say that for me, it's like, huh, there is some wound there that might be so scary and so painful that this person is ready to touch it. For me, that's invites my radical acceptance of who people are and where they're on their journeys. Because it is not easy, right?

It's not easy repeating patterns over and over again that are painful, that are harmful, that hurts you, that keep you small and keep you in abusive relationships for that matter. But it's also not easy to break free of that. Right? I think there is a path that can only happen when people are ready.

So like whenever I'm talking to someone who wants to work with me for the first time and heal child wounds, most people working with me are focusing on healing sexual trauma. My first questions is why now, so I can understand the motivation that the person has. Like some people live with a traumatic memory for 20 years, 30 years, and then they come okay, I want to, I want to look at it and I want to heal this. My question is why now?

What shows you that you're prepared to deal with it right now? And a lot of times it is because people have had the opportunity to walk through a path of self-development or some lighter kind of healing and then they see that they can handle this, this big transformation.

And I think that when people say, oh, I'm scared. I don't know what's going to happen. What I will become?  Maybe they have some steps to take before Does that make sense?

Dalia: That makes so much sense.

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Dalia: I saw recently online someone who does consulting, not necessarily healing work, made a point that just because someone isn't ready to work with you, it doesn't mean they don't think that what you offer is powerful or valuable.

But if it's a service that requires a partnership with the client that requires them to also participate in the process, they may not want to work with you because they don't yet believe they can complete their end of the relationship. And I had never really thought about some of us offer services that are not for people at the start of their journey.

And that's also incredibly important. So I see things all the time where I'm like, wow, this is so popular. Something that someone's offering, but I'm like, but it feels like it's on the surface. And for me, it wouldn't take me deep enough to get to another level, but I've been obsessed with personal development and healing since I was in my early, early teens.

So of course that stuff doesn't appeal to me anymore because that's not where I am on my journey. So learning to respect where people are and to stop wanting to kind of force healing on people has been a process.

Marina: Yeah. Yeah. And it makes so much sense because everybody has to start somewhere really. And also there is a part of me, I don't want people were not ready to do the work to actually hire me 'cause then it's not effective.

You know, if people are not ready to take responsibility for their healing to understand that the healing process is bumpy, it's not like a walk in the park, it’s not full of flowers, right? It's, it's hard at times, depending on the amount of trauma there, the depth of the wounds it's hard.

And if people don't have some of, even that stability in their lives to hold them through that.  I prefer that first they do some other work. Some foundational work. And then they come when they're ready, because that's where I can serve them in my best. I can really be of service to them as opposed to someone who is not ready.

Dalia: Right. What might that foundational work look like for some people? Cause I have heard from some people that are really worried about their own health, someone who's multiple people because you know, so many people have survived, sexual abuse as children. So, so many people and a lot of these people in my personal life are tired of living with the effects of having to distance themselves from their body to be safe and to feel comfortable, but they don't feel ready and they want to be ready and they don't know what that in-between space looks like.

How do you bridge that gap or figure out what might be a step for you?

Marina: Yeah. So I am going to use the same book.

That you brought us as an example. The Body Keeps the Score, which is an amazing read Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk wrote the book. He mentioned that yoga, theater, acting classes, dancing, classes in like martial arts, things that involve the body are great ways for people to start befriending their bodies and coming back in a connection that it's not targeted at healing, their trauma.

So it's not a therapeutic work, but it is bringing them back. So if you're doing yoga poses you need to be aware of what you're doing.  If you're acting you're aware not just of yourself, but of the, all their actors around you, in your positioning in relation to them on stage. All of this contributes for a person to slowly come back to a possible relationship with their bodies, even when their bodies are still carrying so much memories of trauma. They're coming to a more deep work into embodiment work in somatic healing. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Dalia: Yeah.

Marina: For some people, it's actually some talk therapy, some workshops, women's circles, community circles, you know, things that invite people to connect little by little to who they are, their feelings, their emotions, their expectations of community, relationships. Even if it’s a more shallow level, even if it's not very deep, but it opens the way to come to an environment for somatic healing being a little bit more prepared, if that makes sense.

Dalia: Yeah, that does.

Marina: If you look at The Body Keeps the Score he's sharing some amazing results of clients and patients who are suffering like post-traumatic syndrome. I don't like to say disorder. I think it's an injury. It's not a disorder. And being able to know slowly come back to themselves with yoga, acting, martial arts, qigong  and things like that.

So that would be my suggestion for people who want to start. You know, start light, but with things that are inviting you inwards, You know, and then you go into a deeper process. If that makes sense.

Dalia: That does make sense. Have you found that for people who are maybe feeling uncomfortable in their body because their gender identity and their assigned gender doesn't match are the same interventions helpful?

And if so, how do people get to that point where, okay, maybe you still have other things you need to do to feel totally at home in your body, like maybe gender affirming surgeries and your future, but you can't do it now.

How do you make friends with the body that you feel like isn't yours and you know?

Marina: My training in somatic experience is such a beautiful invitation to reconnecting befriending and getting curious with the body and the physiology and the nervous system regulation and all of it that I can only imagine how a person who is not, who doesn’t feel this body really represents their identity and how they want to express in the world. This would be like invaluable for someone to have a space with a qualified professional to explore how they feel about their bodies. Right?

So for example, for a person who was born with a vagina in actually would prefer to have a penis. Perhaps exploring the relationship with that vagina first so they can get into the core, the deepest part of their desire for a penis, then from that, knowing that it's not just a rational knowing, but it's a felt knowing in their bodies start making, you know, designing the steps to get what they want.

So I know many practitioners who specialize in trans and gender nonconforming and non-binary people doing somatic work and the things that they share is like, it's amazing. It's amazing. This populations could benefit a lot from somatic work, because there's so much about the gender identity and expansion that is stuck in the body. Right.

So how can we, again, how can we have these conversations while we actually ignore the body, while we actually ignore the object of our discomfort of our disalignment? Right? So if we're, if I have boobs and I'm uncomfortable with boobs, it's not just thinking about this, it’s really addressing the boobs in the body, how do you feel about it. What is some sensations that comes to you when you connect with that?Right. And from there finding what it is that this body really wants to express.

And for people who cannot go and have surgery and make the changes that they want right away, I think, I think then the coaching way of addressing things. It's like, okay, what can we do now that can be helpful for now that can be supportive for now.

And what are the steps that we need to take in order for you to achieve this bigger desire to do whatever it is that you want to, you know, and then I think it's really about the coaching way of reaching a goal of connecting with the desires that are within the desire that that's living the wisdom of the body.

Dalia: Yeah. Oh, that makes sense to me. And I think has people don't talk about the experience of being gender nonconforming, but finding a way to still connect to your body 'cause they don't talk about it enough. It almost feels like, oh, well, what if it's not possible for me to be friendly with my body while I feel like simultaneously it betrayed me around the time of puberty, but it's encouraging to know that other people who are trans, who are non-binary are doing this work and feeling the benefits.

Marina: Yeah. It's really, it is really powerful. It is really powerful because then all the transformations that you end up performing in your body come from a place of deep understanding, acceptance and love for who you are. Right. And then the body starts reflecting that.

So as opposed to a place of rejection, you know, it's really all honoring who you are, your real identity. And then the body is slowly, starts conforming to the way that we want the world to perceive you, that you want to see yourself. But yeah,

Dalia: That feels so subtle, but that resonates the idea that, it's just so interesting, I think it's that framing from kind of a binary perspective that it almost has to be rejection, but in reality, it is simultaneously a deep acceptance of who you are of knowing that you are not cis-gender person and allowing that to take form in your life. However it's supposed to take form for you.

Yeah. That's a, that's a powerful perspective shift. Yeah.

Marina: It's, it's shaped seeing through the lens of love. And for me, that's where the beauty lives. So I love who I am. And although the world thought, because I have a vagina and I should be a woman, I say no to that. And out of love for who I am, I express my gender the way that it makes sense to me, that the way that is true, not only in my life but in the core of who I am in the core of my body. And this is expressing from a place of love, pure love, radical love, actually.

Dalia: Yeah. Ooh, that is powerful. In an actual session what might somatic healing look like when you do it with a guide? What is that?

Marina: Yeah, it can look like a lot of things, but basically. A session can start with a conversation.

So for example, if I'm working with someone keening sexual trauma, it's not a conversation about what happened, you know, revisiting the past. It's not about that. It's about noticing the patterns, how you are feeling. What are things that are working for you? What are things that are not working?

So many people who experienced sexual trauma have a very and hard time with relationships with romantic relationships, with intimacy, with having sex.Right? So we will have a conversation around that and then invite the body to the conversation. So when you think about relating to someone new, how does your body react? Oh, I noticed contraction. I noticed that heartbeat goes high and I feel the temperature change.

All right. And then from there addressing the sensations. Right? So giving space for those sensations first to be felt to be seen, to be prepared and also using some somatic, um, movement, sounds, breathing, making movements with your body, shaking, dancing, all kinds of things so that those sensations can have a space to, to be really well not just released, but to be moved, to be expressed, and then coming back into stillness and laying and giving space and the time for your nervous system to find some regulation, to discharge some of the energy that it is ready to discharge. And then another way, what else are we talking about and how are we going to address this? So it's, it's always, um, almost like a back and forth conversation. So the rational mind, you know, storytelling narratives and then noticing the body, what is happening here? Right?

Of course, this is a very simplistic way of saying how this works, but in reality, this takes people into such a deep place of inner knowing of inner understanding. And that's where healing is. You know, healing is not in my hands as the somatic healer. Healing is inside the person looking for it.

So as a somatic healer I guide the person into noticing into being. And of course, using my own way of doing that, really allowing the person to know that it's okay to feel what they're feeling. But they have confidence that they're not alone.

And that the body is so wise it's so wise and knows what to do. And slowly because we're healing the present because we're healing our relationships to ourselves right here right now, slowly we build some strength in our emotional body, our physical body in the ways that we can experience intense sensations, thoughts, emotions, feelings, that's going back into past traumatic memories become possible.

And then we can find integration. We can renegotiate that experience if that makes sense. So healing trauma, it's about feeling now healing the body now so that you can renegotiate what's happened in the past.

Dalia: Oh yeah. That's such a clear description. I know. As we age, we stop using our bodies are moving our bodies and ways that are maybe unpredictable.

So I could see you would need a guide to even do that. You can see children intuitively release tension after unpleasant things happen to them. Assuming it's a small and manageable negative experience, you know, but they do it in ways that you would never think to do in an office setting. After you have a conversation that makes you feel some type of way.

So it's fascinating to know who we can go to, to recapture those skills that we forgotten and probably a bunch we've never heard of before as well. Where do people find you?

Marina: I invite everybody to come to my website https://marinanabao.com/. I think you're going to type this.

Dalia: I'll put it in the show notes.

Marina: Yes. I'm a little bit old school. I really like keeping my website updated. All the information is there. And also Instagram @marinanabao. I'm not there every day, but I'm there every week. Sharing a little bits of inspiration, little bits of what I do. And for folks will want to get to know my work better if you are called to work with me I offer a free conversation so that we can get to know each other.

I can understand what people are looking for. We can see find the best person for them and from there we can start a coaching and somatic healing process.

Dalia: Thank you so much for coming on. I only have one final question. If there was one thing that you could say, and everyone would instantly understand it and internalize it for the rest of their lives.

What's something you would like for everyone to know?

Marina: the chains of trauma don't need to be the way that you lead your life forever. You have right here right now, regardless of what happened, regardless of how hard it was, you have the capacity to heal, to live a life that is filled with joy, with radiance, with vitality, and you can fully thrive.  I think that knowing that we have this self-healing capacity and that our bodies are the key to that our bodies are pure medicine, that is what I really want people to know.

Dalia: That’s beautiful.

I love being able to discuss things that really aren't on everybody's radar as a healing tool, and very often and indigenous cultures you'll notice that healing work always involves a physical element, an embodied element, but because many of us live in areas where disconnection from the body is the status quo it's frequently left out of the healing process.

I love the idea of reclaiming our connection to our old ways and also incorporating information from the collective. Because the African diaspora is now spread all over the world, all of us have integrated with the local cultures in many different ways. Thanks to the internet as well, we are able to create hybrid versions of healing practices that work for us that are grounded in what our ancestors did, but are also a blend of what people in our part of the world are using. This is something that can evolve over time using your intuition and doing what feels right for you.

I personally use all kinds of quote unquote modern healing tools like cognitive behavioral therapy, pharmaceuticals that support mental wellbeing and embodiment work and meditation. I approach my wildness with all cylinders firing. I am interested in anything that has the potential to enhance my experience of life with a minimal to acceptable level of risk. Even holistic health practices sometimes come with a little bit of brisk, but I love how many different embodiment practices are totally gentle with minimal risk. So this is an under-utilized tool that I'm sure we're going to see more and more of.

Be sure to check out Marina. I have the link to her website in the show notes. Marina is doing amazing work and is taking on clients at this time. https://marinanabao.com/

Remember the only fee for the show is that you share it with others. Anytime you hear something useful, and around here, that is every episode.

So feel free to share the episode on IG on Facebook, wherever you hangout online and let everybody know what you got out of the episode. Also, you can always like, and review the show on iTunes so that it's easy for other people to find.

Thank you in advance for helping this message reach more folks that need it.

Also Decolonizing Wellness is now available for pre-order. If you're listening to this after February of 2022, it's just available to be ordered. So check that link out in the show notes and get your copy. www.daliakinsey.com/book

Decolonizing Wellness is perfect for you if you enjoy the themes I talk about here, it's focused on QTBIPOC looking to heal their relationship with their self image and their relationship with food. Even if you feel like you have a peaceful relationship with food I go a little deeper there and look at using food and eating as a mindfulness tool and a self-empowerment tool.

So there's something there for all of us.

I hope you'll check it out and let me know what you thought. Okay. Thank you for joining me. I will see you next time.

Body Liberation for All Theme

Yeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.

It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence.  This show is for everyone. So I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.

This episode is a gift. Charlotte James and Dre Wright, the co-founders of The Ancestor Project share their knowledge of using sacred earth medicine as a tool for liberation. Dre and Charlotte make it clear that there is no such thing as a magic pill/cure all for the ills that systemic oppression cause us, but sacred earth medicine can be a life changing catalyst for growth. In the end the magic is within you. But if you’ve been feeling called to discover what role plant medicine can play in your healing journey you are going to love this episode.

This episode we discuss

* Using plant medicine or sacred earth medicine in your healing journey

* Radical self-love as a major step in spiritual work

* Safety and the importance of BIPOC integration circles

* Catalysts for growth vs magic pills

* Recognizing your lineage and ancestral healing tools

Episode Resources

https://www.theancestorproject.com/

www.daliakinsey.com

Decolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body Liberation

Dalia: Hello and welcome to another episode of Body Liberation for All. I'm your host and decolonized wellness and body image coach Dalia Kinsey. I help queer folks of color heal their struggles with shame and self-acceptance through nutrition and self-care so they can live the most fierce, liberated, and joyful version of their lives.

I have been interested in instant enlightenment for a really long time and through research and personal growth, I realized that there's no such thing, but that doesn't stop me from being distracted by or enthralled with any promise of short cutting personal and spiritual growth. So when I started hearing more about plant medicine and hearing all these over the top dramatic stories about how it's changed people's lives in one session, of course, I was interested.

So this has been something I have had some personal lived experience with. And what has become really clear is that just like any area of wellness, where people have monetized something that does have true healing potential, you have to be an educated consumer. It's extremely helpful from the standpoint of a healer to encourage people, to keep their expectations in check, because just the way the human brain works and how susceptible so many of us are to suggestion there is massive potential for disappointment when we create specific expectations fir experiences that yield wildly varying results.

I'm so happy today to share with you a conversation with two healers that really are invested in the liberation and the growth of the people that they work, who aren't just out here selling big promises. They're about the healing work and transformation. Dre and Charlotte from The Ancestor Project, give us some really helpful tips in this episode that I think will help anyone who's considering using plant medicine or sacred earth medicine to continue moving forward in their healing journey.

I'm sure you're going to enjoy this conversation. Let's jump right.

Theme Song

Yeah, they might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept. When the world is tripping out, tell them that you love yourself.

Hey, Hey, smile on them. Live your life just how you like it. It’s your party negativity is not invited.

For my queer folks, my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard.

Look in the mirror and say it’s time to put me first, you were born win. Head up high with confidence. This show is for everyone, so I thank you for tuning in.

Let's go!

Dre: I am a spiritual being, having a human experience. My fundamental nature is pure creative power and unconditional love. I'm Dre a co-founders of the Sabina Project and we actually changed our name to The Ancestor Project, but we're honored to be here and yeah. Thank you.

Charlotte: And I am Charlotte James, the co-founder of the now Ancestor Project.

Dalia: Thank you so much for being here. That new name really resonates. I had to do a little research to try and understand where Sabina was coming from, but can you tell us about that? And what made you feel like a name change was more in alignment?

Dre: You know, as healers, a big part of, being in our opinion to be an effective healer is to do a lot of self-reflection.

So when we came up with the name, The Sabina Project, who was because we were Charlotte was at a talk and there was, uh, there was a mention of Maria Sabina. But it was mentioned in a very, like, they, they spend a lot of time deifying and all these white men and, you know, acting as if they discovered mushrooms and the, and these traditions and oh yeah we want to give a shout out to Maria Sabina.

Right. And there's a, there's an important backstory behind that actually, you know, see there was a tremendous amount of pain and suffering. That she experienced, uh, after sharing this medicine with Watson who lied to her to get her to share a ceremony. You know, one of her children was murdered. The house was burned down. The Mexican government treated her like a drug dealer. It wasn't a good experience. Right. Watson came down there. He had an experience. He was supposed to keep it secret, but then he wrote this article in Life magazine and then all these westerners besieged her home village.

And that was not good for the family. So knowing that, Charlotte stood up and started breaking this down. Like, oh, we couldn't, you need to do a little bit better job of venerating this ancestor. And so after the talk we were thinking about a name, she was like we wanted to name it Sabina Project.

This was a great example of cultural appropriation, right. And how the west takes advantage. However, we didn't ask Sabina for permission to use her name. Right. We thought it was a good idea. And even though our intentions were good, we were in fact doing the same thing we're calling out in other individuals.

So in self-reflection the changing.

Charlotte: Yep. Yeah. It is some soul searching, some ego checking. Um, and yeah, we want to continue to be an example, um, in the psychedelic space and to not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. And also, you know, as we expand in this work, the truth is that the traditions that we practice, that we learned from that we venerate and that we come from are not just one tradition.

And so we wanted to have a name that was more inclusive of all of the ancestors that brought us to where we are now. So yeah, we're The Ancestor Project.

Dalia: That's fascinating that it came up for you in that context. What initially led you to be interested in using plant medicine as a healing tool?

Was it first a tool you used personally? Or something you just wanted to explore because of some other reasons.

Charlotte: So we definitely work off of the mindset that the medicine calls you in, and it happens in a number of different ways for different people. We both have really seemingly like on the surface, very different introductions into our path in this.

I first started using cannabis when I was 14. I know that it was incredibly supportive in helping sort of chill out some unrecognized, high functioning anxiety tendencies. And really supported me and like moving through high school and college I think at that point, my mind was already very open.

Uh, I had had a lot of mind expanding experiences. And so when other psychedelics or plant medicines like were offered up, I was open to the idea of exploring that. And yeah, whether I was doing it incredibly intentionally back then, it certainly was like key to getting me into where I am as a person today.

Dalia: I know for me personally, it's always felt like everyone around me who is part of the dominant culture uses drugs recreationally at some point in their lives without fear of it completely changing the course of their life. But I always felt like I better not touch any of that with a 10 foot pole because the minute I even think about something that's restricted, I imagine the man's just going to pop through a wall or something like that.

That was always my concern. And it feels even more outrageous that a lot of these medicines were in the hands of the people that now are not allowed to use it. On a level, the narrative is still that, oh, this is restricted, but no, it's only really restricted for some people. So how do you encourage folks of color who want to access the healing potential of plant medicine to do so?

Because they know there are some things that are legal here in the states that maybe aren't as highly publicized, that could also be useful. And then there are places you could travel to where you can explore other types of medicine without as much worry.

And then there's different worry about like, can you trust the provider? How do you set the setting? What advice would you give someone who is just starting to think about possibly exploring plant medicine?

Dre: Good question. Great question. And then, you know, the answer is layered.

You know, back to what Charlotte said before the medicine calls you when you're ready to answer, right? These medicines are millions of years old and wise. So that’s the first thing, the second thing is understand that all of the information that you have learned has been information that's been shared to you by the person who did and is currently imprisoning your black body, right. So why would you trust them? Right. And you should start asking the question. Why, why is it that, you know, an African-American male has, is 900% more likely to be arrested for simple possession of cannabis in the state like Maryland used to before it was legal.

When in the United States, we use cannabis at a lower rate. So the reality is too, that there is a significant difference in the types of punishments that we receive or how these laws are enforced. Right. On the other hand we will not liberate ourselves from this oppression logically, right? We have to use both sides of our brain.

Our superpower is from getting connected with these medicines. It is the path to our collective liberation. So if you want to spend another generation, explaining to your children, why they have to act differently and be treated differently because of their color, then you go ahead and do that. If you want to be on the liberation train, you're going to have to use some tools outside of the ones that we've all tried that have not worked.

We've had a black president we've, you know, how much evidence do we need to have before you, before we realized that what we're doing, protesting and all that in fact, that's not really the answer, right. But there is an answer, right? And it's, it is our ancestors. This medicine comes from my ancestors.

And they will get us to a place of liberation. Right? If that's important to you and some folks, you know, this lifetime, some aren’t ready to be liberated for those that are, this is the way this is the path.

And then how do you approach these medicines? Well, I would say surrender to the idea that these medicines can support you and then you will, well, what tends to happen is the universe will open up for you and provide you with access. The pathways will come to you. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear, the first thing that you have to get past is the fear of these constructs.

You know, this is the same government, if you think about most of the medications that you've been given that, that call quote unquote alright. Again the thought process and the belief systems that you have in you have been inculcated with nonsense.

For example, they spread ideas like black people are lazy. But they used our black bodies for free to work. So clearly, you know, its the transfer of their sins onto us. So we've got to stop believing or at the very least question, their ideas, philosophies, and belief systems and start seeing them for how corrupt they really are.

I would say that would be the first step, right. It's just like really, you begin to deconstruct your colonization. They don't have to actually control your body anymore. They've got control of your mind.

Dalia: So is that why for you this is such a key part of the liberation process is because at this point, a lot of the feelings of imprisonment are just ingrained mentally and they're not physically there anymore.

A lot of the barriers are gone, but it's hard to see them.

Dre: Colonization is self-replicating. Patriarchy is self-replicating. These abuse constructs are self-replicating. So all you need to do is brainwash one generation. We still, as people of color, talk about light skin and dark skin in our communication.

In so many dysfunctional ways, you know, we still, we are more religious about Abrahamic traditions, we hold on to those traditions tighter than they do. Right. We've got to take deep breaths. Right. And just realize that you can make different choices in our lives.

And then once you start tapping into that stream of consciousness, all the opportunities that connect with these medicines, will be available.

Dalia: You radiate calmness. This has been a really trying time for everyone. And you're also working as healers experiencing a lot of stress because of what people bring to you. And also because people want to block you from doing your work. There’s so many levels in what you just shared. I can hear the balance. In the last webinar that I attended, I saw that there were clearly colonizer descendants present as well, but you're able to face the fact of the horrors of the damage that colonization has done and allow descendants into the space. How do you find that place of, I guess, equanimity where you can hold room for both.

Charlotte: If I could start on that one.

I think part of what we recognize and also teach, especially when we focus on anti-racism work is that we have actually all been colonized away from our animistic and indigenous shamonic traditions. And this is oftentimes the root cause of cultural appropriation to bring it full circle is that folks are so disconnected from their own traditions that they begin to take from others and do so in a disrespectful and non reverential way.

So we hold, you know, our like first true. community offering that we still carry through is our BIPOC integration circle that we do twice a month. And that's a time for us to come together with our BIPOC family and just talk about our experiences with the medicine and our experiences in the world.

Reintegrating, the insights that the medicine gives us into a world in which we do exist within structures that are built to oppress us. Outside of that, our space is open to those who are willing to sit in their discomfort and face the role that their ancestors played in getting us into the place that we are now, and also the role that they play in perpetuating it.

I know you, I think you came to the microdosing to dismantle oppression, workshop or masterclass, and you know, the whole, our conversation around working with these medicines for personal transformation is working to dismantle the systems of oppression that we've internalized so that we can stop projecting them and replicating the systems of abuse externally.

And so, you know, we keep our community open to that conversation. I also, you know, I'm a biracial person and so I have to contest with that in my own identity as well. You know, I think it's important to be authentic to our lineages and our experiences in this space as Black folks with many different backgrounds and nationalities and heritages.

Dalia: Yeah, I was recently reading, you know, the historian and the person who specializes in genealogy, that's always on PBS with famous folls, I think it's Henry Louis. Right? So it's so interesting in his book, he points out that so many Black families have these stories of Native American or first nations ancestry.

And it's almost never the case. It's almost always European ancestry. And so this is something that a lot of Black Americans struggle with reconciling that no one is a hundred percent anything. That's just literally not a thing. And because of how binary race is seen in the states in particular, that can be really difficult for people to deal with because how we're socialized is typically going to be one or the other, like people don't let you just fully be yourself.

So how has the medicine affected your ability to maintain your peace every day dealing with all the layers and all the work that you have to do to fully accept yourself in a world that makes that a little tricky.

Dre: Yeah. Some, some good questions today. I got this Black dude, you know, the word that keeps coming up for me, the question, the last question is low, right?

So we start from there. We are homo sapiens so 4% or so of our DNA might be Neanderthal. We are homo sapiens the species. Okay. We are also carbon based creatures and everything in the universe is mostly carbon. Every one of us is relatives.

At the end of the day, this, the conversation we'll have is specifically now is about a 3d reality. The illusion that we walk around, the walking dead, I like to call it this, this illusion, we do live in a very abusive experience.

Right. But we have the ability to transcend this reality, right. And then bring back that power back to this 3d world. Instead of us being the genius that the genius moves through us. Right. And for us, and that the universe inspires on, our behalf. Right. I think one of the reasons why the Abrahamic traditions and colonization have been so successful is that they got us disconnected from the other part of our brain.

You've been using that logical, linear pathway that only distorted information and got us disconnected with the other side of ourselves. Right. And so what we are encouraging every human to do is understand the name that you chose before your parents were born. Right. And this reality, right? Yeah. So I think really at the end of the day, deep healing starts with having deep radical self-love for yourself, not defining yourself by anyone else's ideas, except for yourself, your true essence, right? And then when you are radically deeply in love with yourself, they have so much compassion and love. Most of the trauma that we are experiencing in humans most is from other humans is not from disease.

And most of that trauma is simply the word. That another human uses towards us. Right? It's that? It's that dad, your dad not telling you, he loved you when you were six and now you're 80 and you're still traumatized by that experience. That's when most of us, so we'll want to get deeply in love with ourselves, right?

And then once you’re loving yourself and really understanding your true essence, the medicines allow you to get out of your own way and allow you to heal the experience.

Dalia: That sounds like deep spiritual work. Does it matter what traditions accompany this type of healing?

Well, first, can you kind of tell us what animism is because that isn't something we hear about a lot in the west.

Dre: So the easiest way to think about it is this is begin to seeing yourself as part of this great collective that we call the earth. I, and you you're one of many different organisms and you're related to all these things, right.

And to develop a deep reverence and respect for those things for yourself. That's what all hunter gatherer traditions share, connection. Some of it was aligned with the food they were eating as well and how they survived. There was a deep connection and reverence for yourself. And then the other part of that was.

So if you have both of those two things aligned, that's the practice. Find our ancestors practice, these ways, the flow.

Charlotte: Yeah.

That's this idea that every living and even what we would consider a non-living beings on this planet is alive and that we are an intrinsic part of that. I don't know if you've ever seen the graphic and it's like one side will say ego and there's like a little person on top and then various different kinds of animals underneath the person.

And then on the right side, it will say eco. And it's like the person as part of, in a circle with all of these. Beings. And so it's the idea. Shamanism is really the idea of going from a dominion model, which is your right, like where there's a dominant culture, there's norms that are accepted as a dominant way of life to living in.

I forget the term that, that like shamanism uses. To living in, in equanimity with everything around us. And you can find that tradition on the continent of Africa, in the Amazon, and also in Nordic tradition and Viking tradition in Russian tradition. So that's not something that is specific to Black and brown cultures, something that was specific to indigenous culture and there's indigenous culture around the world.

But I thought that the question you asked around, like, does it matter what traditions you focus on in this like realm of healing or sort of sacred earth medicine healing space.

I think a lot of what we talk about is educating folks on the lineages that these medicines and traditions come from, because you'll see now that there's a lot of research being done around how these medicines work and what they heal and can cure.

And really our ancestors already did the research on how to safely and effectively use these medicines to support our collective liberation. And so for us, it's important to learn from these traditions to understand the context of the medicine. But again, circling back to this, you know, idea that we all now are very, like, sort of pluralistic in our identity.

It also means that you can work with more than one tradition and there is not any sort of dogma around that aspect of it. And there's not even that much dogma within the traditions frequently.

Dalia: Thats refreshing. And that's very different from like a colonizer perspective. Everything's always very one or the other confined. So I have noticed that, especially here in the states, it just seems like members of the dominant culture are running this healing space. What have you noticed is the difference in how folks of color, or maybe not even folks of color in general, just how you specifically, how is this tool different when it comes to.

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Dre: Ancestral practices.

You know, we, both of us had been in the dominant white spaces before, and there's a lot of forms of sensationalism, the medicine itself and the proper what's the dose. And I saw this, but when you get around predominantly BIPOC there tends to be a conversation around practice, around respect, around reverence and connection with your ancestors, which is really beautiful and fresh.

And I don't think we've done last year. We did. I dunno, we did every first and third, Sunday, we do integration circle and I don't think we've ever had a conversation about an experience asking what was the dose and all that type of stuff, you know, sensationalized experience.

Dalia: Well, my partner checked me yesterday.

I think it was a few days ago because they are part of the dominant culture. And they're like, every time I walked by the off you are saying something about colonizers. He didn’t feel like it’s a blanket term people can connect to now. And I said, well, maybe I need to start looking for ways to address the reality of the situation is that we are dealing with fallout from colonization.

But then also, like you said, it happened to everyone really but I think it's clear who is suffering on the more violent end. But everyone is suffering. So I'm experimenting with that, that term.

Dre: Yeah. It's also interesting because we are using, you know, that try to have these conversations, but ultimately they used in our colonization.

Right. Which is very unlimited. Right. And it ultimately pushes us to put ourselves in these silos where we separate, you know, like whiteness is not actually real and we've been perpetuating this nonsense, black and white forever. And it just separates us and keeps us from not focusing, you know, that the reality is that even your light brothers and sisters out there, most of those folks, all those folks have been victims of colonization.

If you think about, you know, what the pilgrims suffered, right before they came over here, they were setting those folks on fire and putting them on crosses for their belief systems. Right. So we've all suffered the tremendous amount of abuse. And then what happens is, you know, the usage is heavy and it's tremendous.

And so you, you begin to see. When we notice in our own communities where folks have self-hatred and they treat their own folks worse, than the perceived dominant culture does.

Dalia: There's so many levels.

When did you become clear on your personal dedication to being liberated? And wanting to liberate others

Dre: When I get there, I’ll let you know. Now every day, every day I realize in how many ways I am complicit in the abuse. Just a real simple example, for years, I would teach young men how to survive a police encounter, you know, roll, crack your window, put your hands on the steering wheel, ask for permission, you know, how to survive a police encounter. And during that time, it must've been like 10 years. I was teaching straight, very proud of all this training and never occurred to me that in addition to doing that, I should be dismantling the system that causes me to have to teach Black boys to act differently in a police encounter.

Right. So we all completely, I joined the military, right. So, you know, I've been brainwashed just like the rest of us, you know?

Charlotte: I feel like that's part of, even that is part of this narrative, right. That we like compare our trauma to each other, to say who was more or less traumatized. And that means I should be in this place or that place on my journey.

No, we all respond to trauma differently. And we all have been tried in the same way. We've all been colonized. We've all been traumatized at different degrees. I think it's just like we are we're humans, you know, like we, we may do medicine work or be at a different place in our medicine journey, but like we still come back to the 3D every time and have to deal with the human stuff.

Dalia: Yeah. I think that's really helpful because sometimes from the outside, you think that people who seem really far ahead of you in their spiritual journey have an easier time, or maybe we're less traumatized and less brainwashed than you

Charlotte: Actually this story circles back to one of your earlier questions that we didn't necessarily answer completely, which was this question of like how you begin a relationship with the medicine or how you find a practitioner or a facilitator or a scent, a retreat center that is going to be safe and support.

So we do our virtual BIPOC circles twice a month. We do masterclasses for surely around once a month. And sometimes you do series as well and then in person, we work with Kambo medicine and Rapé which are two legal, sacred earth medicines. And so they support us in being able to support our community and in a way that we can like talk about very publicly because they are legal medicines and Rapé is a medicine that you can begin building a relationship with on your own.

So we do virtual ceremonies where we send out medicine to people, and then we gather together on Zoom. Teach them how to administer that medicine and work with it.

Dalia: Tell me about the services that you have available right now and what people who live in your area can do with you and what people who are farther away can work with you on.

Charlotte: So I think it's a couple of things. It's funny what you said. There's that meme of like a kid trying to step like six steps up the stairs at once. And you know, the first couple of rungs are like meditation drinking a gallon of water a day, breath work, and then like rung six is psychedelics. And he's like trying to hop through.

Nothing's a magic pill and that is why we focus a lot on the preparation and integration because it's about taking the downloads that you receive in ceremony and then turning those into daily action, because what we are not encouraging is like constantly running back to the medicine without doing the work, to integrate the lessons.

So, yeah, there's question around being committed. Once you answer the call of the medicine, making a commitment like a holistic commitment to your wellbeing is what is going to move the journey along, but like coming to the medicine and then not changing any of your habits or behaviors or belief systems is like not, not going to work.

Dalia: Now with that type of plant medicine, the experiences that you're going to have, are they more subtle? And it's more like a supportive aid versus there's some other things, you know, everybody always wants to shortcut and myself included. There's some things that you fantasize that, oh, I'm going to take this thing and we're going to go on this retreat and I'm going to be enlightened by the end of the weekend.

Pretty sure that is not a thing ever. What do you find people have the most resistance around? Is it that it's still a journey? That it's still a lot of work or that we have all these really hyped up fictional perceptions of what plant medicine is going to be like?

Dre: I mean, we have that example today, right?

Just lots of people in the I'm not comfortable with the word dominant, what you see is people doing lots of psychedelics and lots of mushrooms and LSD and all those types of things. And then they create companies that churn out more abuse, right. They, you know, like in silicone valley is it's popular to do, to microdose so that you can work harder, longer, right.

And create more apps to create more addictions to us. So clearly doing these medicines without the right set and setting the right guidance is not effective. And the difference, the big difference is in the west, what you have is young people, traditionally experimenting or leading the way in this conversation. Our ancestors, the elders would bring the young ones to a right of passage, when it’s time for you to take on a new role and responsibility as part, a member of this community and they would do ceremony to move them to that next level. So there was a reason, there was a why, and there was a how to do these things, not folks, you know, dropping acid and drinking alcohol.

There is no magic. And just like the movie matrix, you know, why don't you take that pill? And you realize how you are complicit in everyone's abuse to include your own trauma that you're reliving daily, the stories that you tell yourself, the poison that you've ingested and that you're living in and the embodiment of that poison over and over again, the person told you you were unloved, unlovable, and unworthy.

And now every morning when you wake up, you tell yourself that story over and over again, you reinforce it. But is that the reality? So you could potentially have what they call a rebirth experience, your very first ceremony. Sure, but all that would mean is that you would realize how many more layers of work you need to do.

And then there's your ancestors you need to support. Lets say your parents, and their struggles and your ancestors and there's the rest of the community that needs to be healed. We encourage you to take the pill, but it is definitely not a magic pill. It's just the beginning.

It's just the beginning of many, many layers of learning how to love yourself, deeply compassionately and love other people deeply compassionately and passionately at the same time.

Dalia: .Where are the downloads coming from when you're in ceremony? Is it from you and your subconscious or to some part of you that's connected to something bigger like an ancestor or like a God?

Dre: Yeah. So I'm not going to just say, normally this is the first time I've done this. We're not going to answer that question because I think it's like a spoiler, right? Right. I think the west has this tendency of asking what’s right. But in a number of practices, you know, your job is to experience. You spend years watching and listening and observing, right.

This is the thing it's about the experience. The experience will, will clarify me so, right, but I don't want to give you too much information. And then you, and then it becomes a, well, I just heard it someplace. So maybe this is how do I know that this is even real for me. Right? Cause I heard it.

So, you know, what I can tell you is is that every person who has had a mystical experience with these medicines say it as one of the top five experiences in life. I will tell you for me as a person, the birth of my daughter was a greatest honor and privilege of my life to see her being born. the first five minutes of skin to skin.

It was a seminal experience, but sitting down with ayahuasca was the most important decision I've ever made. I would not be half the father I am, or the human I am if it was not from sitting with and surrendering to these medicines.

Charlotte: Yeah, thank you for, for saying that joy, because I think this goes back to, you know, the difference of what we see in our integration circles. And one of our key group agreements, not interpreting other people's journeys, but I think we also don't really hear it. Like in circle, people are not really saying, like giving a play by play of what they saw, what they heard, what they, whatever.

It's so much more about building this relationship of trust with yourself and the medicine, so that you're open to receiving whatever the medicine brings. And the medicine always brings what you need, not necessarily what you want. It can be challenging, but it does always bring you what you need.

Dre: Yeah, for sure.

Absolutely. Now I will give you a little hit. Right. So part of what this is about is asking a better question. And the question is what are the habits, beliefs, ideas, and people that no longer serve me, that I'm excited to let go. And what are the habits, beliefs, people, and ideas I'm excited to attract. Notice it's not you doing something like you creating something.

It’s simply just allowing the universe to conspire and attract those things into your life. So that question is how do you begin to develop a deep and powerful intention in your ceremony?

And then after you have the awareness, then you're now it's time to do the work.

Charlotte: Yes. Thank you for saying that. That is what I like distracted myself, but I think also in not answering that question too directly, it's like, we don't want to set expectations because the whole purpose is to come with strong intentions and have no expectation of the medicine

Dalia: When people are trying to do their integration do they ask themselves those questions again, or look for ways to just get clear on what revelations they think they had?

Dre: Great question. So if a person is privileged enough to do a ceremony, part of it is that you come to it with lots of reverence and a little bit of concern.

This is a big, it's a big deal. And thoughtfulness a tremendous amount of thoughtfulness in the setting and getting prepared for this thing. And then the goal is to live a life of ceremony, right? Live a life of thoughtfulness and prayer and reverence and connection to yourself, the daily.

It's the paying attention to your compulsion's and not reacting to compulsion's when reacting to the thing isn’t the highest best choice for yourself. And to these medicines, we're hoping, again, to understand the name that you chose before your parents were born.

The ego part of ourselves, is the self that can be the deceiver. Oh, I really need that sugar or I need alcohol. All those are things because I'm feeling I need to fill a hole. Right. And to take some external source to do it, but then when you're radically in love with yourself, that isn't it. There's no hole to fill, I'm in love.

Listen, the only thing I need, continuing to nourish myself and connect with others in creating an environment a nourishing one. That's my role. Okay.

Dalia: Is that the purpose of your life, do you feel?

Dre: All of our lives. And then, you know, the question, those questions you asked me, I would say you ask that question daily.

Like this was the daily inventory. A good morning practice when you get up is to do an inventory of all those aspects of yourself, really beautiful when you realized that you are now not all on autopilot, right? Just going, you know, just living the life that other people told you. And now you're in control of your movie, your story, your experience today, that's really super exciting and also scary too.

Because now you can't point things to anybody else.You have to really take new steps. It is nuanced though, because remember in the 3D reality that we live in the are still structures, there is a governmental system that, you know, is quite oppressive towards people of color.

And so that is not just here in America, but all over the world. So all this will have to pay attention to that reality as well.

Dalia: If there is just one thing you could say to the listeners and they would understand it instantly and carry it with them for the rest of their lives, what would you want for people to know?

Dre: Every one of us has super superpowers. It is true that you're probably never going to tap into those superpowers until you can connect with these plant medicines and surrender. They're older and wiser than you as a homo sapien will ever be, they have knowledge and traditions and teachings enlist them as your oldest relatives.

So sit with those relatives and they will open a doorway or pathway to healing and liberation like you never could dream it. We don't need to continue to perpetuate this idea that we are victims. We’re kings and queens that have to step into our power.

This is your path.

Charlotte: I would say, give yourself the gift of living your life.

Dalia: That's really powerful. That was so good. Thank you so much for coming on. How do you think is the best way for people to connect with you?

Charlotte: Right now you can find us on Instagram as @thesabinaproject and our site i

https://www.instagram.com/theancestorproject/

https://www.theancestorproject.com/

That will be changing soon, but you'll still be able to find us it'll reroute to where you need to go.

Dalia: Okay. Perfect. I’ll make sure to put those in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being here.

Dre: Yeah. Thank you for having us. We're honored to be here.

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Dalia: I love how grounded and realistic the insights and advice Dre and Charlotte offered are. I encourage you to check out The Ancestor Project on social media and also check out their integration service. That's specifically for BIPOC who are working with plant medicine, maybe on their own, and need a place to get the most out of their experiences and to fully integrate what they've learned in their daily life.

Remember the only cost for the show is that you share it with others anytime you hear something useful. These days, I'm confident, that is every episode. So feel free to take a screenshot and share that you've been listening to on Body Liberation for All. What was your takeaway from this episode?

Remember that Decolonizing Wellness is now available for pre-order and if you're listening to this after February, 2022. It's just available. It's out in the world. Please check out the show notes and go ahead and order your copy. All right. Thanks for joining me. I'll see you next time.