What happens when you take a leap without knowing exactly how it will turn out?

In this bonus episode, Krista sits down with Bernie and Perry Klebahn, who now teaches The Designer in Society, to reflect on the evolution of the course — and the changing philosophies behind it. Recorded on the eve of the Stanford d.school’s 20th anniversary, two years after Bernie’s retirement, this conversation is part history, part love letter to teaching, and part reminder that learning often works best when you’re willing to take the leap before you have all the answers.

We talk about why doing—not overthinking—has always been at the course’s core. Bernie and Perry touch on the beloved class projects, taking small but meaningful actions, and creating a community built on presence, trust, and real conversation.

00:00 A willingness to give things a chance

00:59 Perry’s path to Stanford, through industry, and teaching with Bernie

01:44 The legendary art Professor Matt Kahn

04:31 How The Designer in Society evolved with the d.school and Perry

11:29 More on projects and taking the first real step

17:11 Prototyping life decisions with projects

22:06 Long-form reading, presence, and real conversation

23:13 No absences and don’t be late (or you fail the course)

24:08 Exercises that create trust and discomfort

25:56 Letting the class evolve

27:20 Appreciations & Regrets

32:15 The Blind Walk exercise

Follow us on Instagram⁠ @yelloweyedcatspodcast⁠ for fun extras.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson

Producer: Krista Donaldson