What happens when you take a leap without knowing exactly how it will turn out?

In this bonus episode, Krista sits down with Bernie and Perry Klebahn, who now teaches The Designer in Society, to reflect on the evolution of the course — and the changing philosophies behind it. Recorded on the eve of the Stanford d.school’s 20th anniversary, two years after Bernie’s retirement, this conversation is part history, part love letter to teaching, and part reminder that learning often works best when you’re willing to take the leap before you have all the answers.

We talk about why doing—not overthinking—has always been at the course’s core. Bernie and Perry touch on the beloved class projects, taking small but meaningful actions, and creating a community built on presence, trust, and real conversation.

00:00 A willingness to give things a chance

00:59 Perry’s path to Stanford, through industry, and teaching with Bernie

01:44 The legendary art Professor Matt Kahn

04:31 How The Designer in Society evolved with the d.school and Perry

11:29 More on projects and taking the first real step

17:11 Prototyping life decisions with projects

22:06 Long-form reading, presence, and real conversation

23:13 No absences and don’t be late (or you fail the course)

24:08 Exercises that create trust and discomfort

25:56 Letting the class evolve

27:20 Appreciations & Regrets

32:15 The Blind Walk exercise

Follow us on Instagram⁠ @yelloweyedcatspodcast⁠ for fun extras.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson

Producer: Krista Donaldson

In this *mini* bonus episode, Bernie and David Janka, our guest from episode 11, share the advice they give students when asked about classes, careers, and first jobs.

Bernie likes to tell students that planning often doesn’t work — life is full of chance and change — and to embrace it. David encourages students to explore, enjoy the detours, and turn “mistakes” (aka learnings...) into part of their story.

Together, their wisdom: expect the unexpected, and enjoy the voyage of discovery.

 01:08 Bernie: Logic doesn’t matter, embrace change

01:52 David: Exploration over perfection

02:44 The value of misinterpretation and detours

04:00 Connecting your diverse interests into a story

04:23 Krista’s wrap-up: enjoy the voyage, welcome the unexpected

Follow us on Instagram @yelloweyedcatspodcast for fun extras.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson

Producer: Krista Donaldson

In this (final official!) episode, Bernie reflects on how the most meaningful turns in life often come from chance rather than careful planning. He shares his own serendipitous journey to becoming a professor at Stanford (involving a case of two professors named Arnold), his unexpected entry into robotics, how a single phone call led to his pioneering work in design —and why saying “yes” at the right time matters.

We’re joined by David Janka, a physician-turned-designer and faculty member at Stanford’s d.school. David opens up about leaving medicine to explore design, how the Designer in Society class helped him navigate that transition, and why creating a physical project in the class, a gift for friends, became a pivotal part of his journey. 

Together, we explore questions of work, purpose, and meaning, with a little help from Gandhi and E.F. Schumacher.

00:00 Life is a c***shoot: accidents that shape our paths

01:00 Bernie on chance and opportunity

02:34 The wrong Arnold: how Bernie got to Stanford

06:13 A phone call that led to robotics

07:10 Another call that sparked Designer in Society

09:03 Are we the type of people who say yes or no?

10:00 The blessing (and curse) of work

12:53 The “Who am I?” exercise

17:30 Introducing David Janka

21:16 David’s Designer in Society project

28:25 Serendipity, careers, and saying yes

30:29 Bernie’s Burning Man camp

Follow us on Instagram: @yelloweyedcatspodcast to see extras from this episode, like David's atrium staircase.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson; Producer: Krista Donaldson

In this episode, Bernie explores how learning from others helps us learn about ourselves, especially when we are seeking assistance. From mantras collected from colleagues ("We don't have enough time to hurry" and “All design is redesign”) to the powerful tool of projection, Bernie offers tools to help us navigate interactions, teamwork, and life.

We're joined by Wendy Ju, a leading expert in human-computer interaction and professor at Cornell Tech. Wendy shares her journey from being rejected by Bernie when she wanted to take ‘The Designer in Society’ as an undergrad to later co-teaching a class with him. She discusses how their teaching team's productive conflicts became powerful learning moments, as well as some of the class’s best-known – and in one case, infamous – projects.

We also cover the curse of networking, mini-mentoring, and managing conflict on a team. We hope you’ll join us!

00:00 Bernie's mantras from colleagues: "We don't have enough time to hurry"

01:33 The projection exercise explained

07:58 The problem with the Myer-Briggs and similar tests

10:18 When conflict arises on teams

13:21 Mini-mentoring vs. formal mentorship

15:56 The curse of networking

17:40 Introducing Wendy Ju

20:39 Wendy's journey from rejected undergraduate to co-instructor of Transformative Design

22:17 (In)famous class projects: Juul and Juntos

23:43 Teaching team dynamics and productive conflict

24:32 The power of mantras and Wendy’s "Time passes for free"

30:49 Bernie's hot tub projection revelation

Follow us on Instagram: @yelloweyedcatspodcast to see extras from this episode!

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson; Producer: Krista Donaldson

In this episode, we talk about the importance of shared humanity within teams or groups. Bernie explains his original, and often awkward, icebreaker “When was the last time you…” and explains how Stanford's Design Group operated without a traditional leader for over 40 years.

From learning names with gestures to the “I like… I  wish…” way of giving feedback, we explore Bernie's version of "radical collaboration" and why something as simple as where you sit can change your experience.

We're joined by Ade Mabogunje, longtime Stanford researcher, who shares arriving at Stanford from Nigeria and experiencing Bernie's "disorientation weekend"—which involved running through ponds and rolling in grass with professors. Plus, the story of the paper boat project that revealed an unexpected truth about persistence versus brilliance.

00:00 "When was the last time you..." icebreaker

04:04 The story behind Bernie's community-minded approach

05:14: Gestures to learn others’ names

06:32 Stanford's Design Group's evolution to become leaderless for 40+ years

09:26 Bill Moggridge has thoughts on Bernie’s PPT slides

13:14 "I like and I wish" for giving feedback

15:21 The physical power demonstration: making colleagues "taller" or "shorter"

16:28 Why where you sit affects your influence

20:12 Introducing Ade Mabogunje

21:41 Disorientation weekend

24:28 The paper boat project and the importance of stick-to-it-ness

27:21 Silicon Valley culture

30:16 Bernie on competition vs. cooperation

30:29 Bernie proves Jim Fadiman (the father of microdosing) wrong

Follow us on Instagram: @yelloweyedcatspodcast to see extras - we have a video of those paper boats!

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson; Producer: Krista Donaldson

Bernie explores one of his most liberating concepts: your self-image is malleable. From a show business manager who found it "really hurt" to be nice, to students writing down "10 things you would never do" and then doing them, this episode considers how our perceptions of ourselves can both limit and liberate us.

We're joined by Jeff Brown, an engineer who transformed from a by-the-book government kid to a Silicon Valley CEO and climate entrepreneur. Jeff shares how Bernie's class gave him the confidence to see engineering as a superpower, and how his class project helped him manage a challenging health problem.

We also talk about “The House Fantasy” (Episode 8a. bonus) and Bernie also walks us through his "truth process" (Episode 8b. bonus)—a powerful exercise for examining the stories we tell ourselves and making problems “disappear” through radical honesty.

00:00 Bernie's philosophy: Your self-image is malleable

00:30 The show business lawyer who was "nasty" by design

02:54 Exercise: Write down 10 things you would never do... then do them

06:04 Where self-images come from

09:23 The truth process: Telling yourself what really is

13:23 Disappearing your problems

15:52 Introducing Jeff Brown

19:36 Using engineering as a "superpower for good"

21:34 Jeff's class project of self-healing

23:00 The House Fantasy visualization

26:01 Bernie at 92: "I still don't know what I'm gonna do when I grow up"

27:51 Bernie’s self-image

Follow us on Instagram: @yelloweyedcatspodcast to see more about Jeff's journey and other references from our podcast.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson; Producer: Krista Donaldson

In this bonus episode, Bernie walks you through his exercise, “The Truth Process.” Using simple guided imagery, he shares a helpful way to tackle something you’re struggling with or to let go of what you don’t need anymore. We'll talk about this exercise in episode 8.

00:00 Intro 

01:29 Get comfortable…

04:25 The Truth Process

In this bonus episode, Bernie guides you through his exercise, “The House Fantasy.” By imagining and exploring a house as a stand-in for yourself, you might discover new insights about who you are and what’s going on in your life. It’s a creative way to get to know yourself a little better. We'll talk about this exercise in episode 8.

00:00 Intro

01:51 Get comfortable…

04:42 The House Fantasy

14:29 Bernie talks about the exercise

Bernie teaches that the words you choose can shape your reality. In this episode, we explore the subtle but powerful impact of language on how we think, act, and relate to others. From a simple yes/no exercise to the power of and versus but, this episode explores how language can either empower or disempower us—and why Bernie earned the nickname ‘Bernie's with And.’

We're joined by Allison Okamura, Stanford professor and researcher, who shares how Bernie's language teachings transformed how she thinks about her research and how her daughter caught her saying "I love you, but...". 

Changing a word might change your life. Come prepared to never think about language the same way again.

00:00 The Yes/No exercise 

03:14 And builds, But shuts down 

08:05 Have to vs. Want to

08:45 Help vs. Assist - Bernie's cooking story 

09:40 The problem with Should 

10:08 Why questions between equals 

13:08 The "Bernie's with And" hat story 

15:07 Introducing Allison Okamura

17:02 Allison’s class project: Japan, robotics, and her an ex-ex-ex

23:47 Allison on using And vs. But 

26:11 Getting called out by her daughter 

27:13 Bernie summarizes

28:28: Bernie’s book And/But edits

Follow us on Instagram: @yelloweyedcats to see Bernie's 'And' hat and other references from our podcast.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson; Producer: Krista Donaldson

Ever get stuck on a problem that keeps you up at night? Bernie says it might not be the problem—it might be the question. 

In this episode, we talk about how reframing problems can open up a whole new world of solutions. Bernie also helps us spot when we're solving the wrong problem and shares tools to help us reframe.

We’re joined by special guests Sheila and Harrison Wang, who took 'The Designer in Society' together in the ’80s when they were newly married grad students. They share how the class helped them navigate cultural expectations, major life decisions, and one truly memorable class project that’s lasted decades.

From pushing metaphorical rocks off a cliff to buying a real Persian rug, this episode has more of Bernie’s stories and practical wisdom, along with a gentle reminder: sometimes, the best way forward is to zoom out and ask a better question.

00:00 Introduction

01:15 Example of the wrong problem: "I want to find a good man"

03:42 Bernie's own wrong question

05:12 Bernie and Krista discuss worrying

08:17 The "going up a level" exercise explained

10:32 Introducing Harrison and Sheila Wang

12:52 Harrison's quest to impress Bernie (spoiler: it didn't work)

15:17 Moving to America at ten - it wasn’t so smooth in the beginning

17:00 From robotics to finance: The "emperor has no clothes" feeling

19:56 Taking the class together and their class project

20:33 The visualization exercise: Push your problem over a cliff

24:47 The Persian rug adventure for Bernie's 70th birthday

25:51 Four practical tools for reframing problems

27:06 Bernie on AI

Follow us on Instagram: ⁠@yelloweyedcats⁠podcast to see fun extras like Bernie’s not-your-typical-professor’s hair and learn more Sheila’s grandfather who was a general for Chiang Kai Shek.

Co-hosts: Bernie Roth & Krista Donaldson; Producer: Krista Donaldson