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Media consumption habits are changing rapidly, which means marketers have to thread the needle between "chasing the shiny new object" and embracing emerging platforms strategically. For Bob Sherwin, the chief marketing & commercial officer of Zoe, the solution is to frame new media initiatives as a test.

"The test is that you're going to either win and find something new, or you're going to learn," Bob says. "As long as you set it up as a test and you're going to learn something, it's a win no matter what. Because we're going to either be way smarter about something, or we're going to find a new breakthrough."

Today on Building Better CMOs, he and MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart discuss the role of CMOs in shaping customer experience; aligning marketing efforts with business outcomes; and the need for clear communication with the C-suite to maximize marketing's impact. They also talk about Zoe's personalized approach to nutrition and the challenges of marketing measurement and attribution.

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This episode was produced and edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm.

Marketing is not really a profession.

There is no one body of knowledge that CMOs and other marketing leaders all share. We can’t even agree on what the role of a CMO is.

On Building Better CMOs, MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart speaks with the very best marketing leaders about what CMOs get wrong and how they overcome the challenges they face. Plus: How are they responding to the evolution of AI? Where do they stand on the brand vs. performance debate? How is the definition of CMO "changing?"

Above all: What does it take to drive growth today?

When you listen to the podcast or watch it on YouTube, you’ll get expert advice from the CMOs of companies like Lyft, Zillow, Nissan, GE, AT&T, Adobe, Uber, Salesforce, Coca-Cola, and more.

Building Better CMOs is available on all major podcasting apps, as well as YouTube. New episodes come out every two weeks.

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"If you want to get to the next level, you need to understand what motivates you," says Alex Craddock, Chief Marketing and Content Officer at Citi. "As you get more senior ... your role does change. And if you want to continue to grow, you need to be able to find a reward in it beyond just the joy that you have in marketing as a discipline."

Today on Building Better CMOs, Alex talks with MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart about the need for a strategic approach to content creation, the evolving role of CMOs in driving business growth, and how to articulate marketing's value in business terms that resonate with other executives, ensuring that marketing is seen as a strategic driver rather than mere sales support. They also discuss career development, risk-taking in corporate environments, and how AI can amplify human capabilities and accelerate marketing impact.

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This episode was produced and edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm.

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"As marketers, we can't just respond to the bottom line," says TIAA CMO Micky Onvural. "We can't just say, 'Well give me a million dollars and I will give you this many customers or this many clicks, and if I do the right kind of mathematics, I'll give you this kind of lifetime value that's going to deliver you this to the bottom line.' I think you actually have to connect further upstream with the CFO."

Today on Building Better CMOs, Micky explains what connecting further upstream looks like in practice, the retirement crisis in America, and the importance of vulnerability, humility, and curiosity in leadership. She and MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart also discuss the importance of customer experience, Micky's years as the CEO of Bonobos, and how returning to the CMO role compares.

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This episode was produced and edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm.

Note: "Retirement check" refers to the annuity income received in retirement. Guarantees of fixed monthly payments are only associated with TIAA's fixed annuities.

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"Business and humanity can actually not only live together, but I think that they can thrive together," says Brian Irving, CMO of Lyft. That sort of philosophy has informed his work at companies like Apple, Airbnb, and the agency Rapp, and today at Lyft he's applying it to everything from autonomous vehicles to city bikes.

Today on Building Better CMOs, Brian discusses how marketing strategies can align with broader business goals to demonstrate real impact, moving beyond traditional metrics. He and MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart also discuss the future of rideshare and autonomous vehicles, the role of AI in marketing, and maintaining a human touch in the tech industry.

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This episode was produced and edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm.

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"Our grand purpose is to make home a reality for more and more people," says Ravi Kandikonda, SVP of Marketing at Zillow.

Today on Building Better CMOs, he and Greg Stuart discuss the significance of empathy in brand messaging, and the importance of integrating product knowledge, customer experience, and business outcomes to effectively connect with audiences. Ravi emphasizes that marketers should actively shape solutions, not just identify pain points, and explains how Zillow views AI as a tool for more effective marketing.

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Getting the right health insurance is serious business; it's the number one reason for bankruptcy in America, says eHealth Insurance CRO Michelle Barbeau. But when she joined eHealth — which helps consumers compare and select providers — she realized that scaring people into action was not a winning strategy.

"What we found was, it's all about transparency," says Michelle, who initially served as eHealth's CMO, and is now a CRO who also oversees marketing. "We had just never told the story. And so that's where our campaign was born. Our strategy was 'Your remarkably transparent advisor.'"

Today on Building Better CMOs, Michelle and MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart talk about her transition from CMO to CRO, the importance of stepping out of one's comfort zone, and the role of marketers as change agents. They also discuss brand-building from scratch, consumer research, and how unifying marketing efforts can lead to significant growth.

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Marketing measurement is a complex puzzle—especially when it comes to balancing long-term brand-building efforts with short-term performance metrics that will please stakeholders. Tailored Brands CMO Carolyn Pollock acknowledges that CFOs may be skeptical of matched market testing and other tools for measuring brand-building impact, but that long-term may have an edge.

"The consistency and the continuity of showing up with a message over time, you think back to almost every brand example," Carolyn says. "The ones that are really strong and bring long-term brand value, they've delivered something very consistently for a reasonably extended period of time. And I think what happens nowadays is people don't have that same level of patience or tolerance, and our attention spans are shorter, and we feel the need to be constantly changing things up."

Today on Building Better CMOs, Carolyn and MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart talk about the complexities of building a modern marketing technology stack, the exciting potential of AI, and operating effectively inside of a private equity company. Carolyn also talks about why even subject matter experts need to gain a holistic understanding of their whole organization.

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It's easy to say you want your decisions to be data-driven. But as Salesforce CMO Ariel Kelman has learned, hard data doesn't tell the full story. Often, you also need to consider the qualitative.

"Let's say you go and do some executive event series, where you have 30 people come to each event," he says. "It's not like if we want to go draw conclusions from, let's say, Dreamforce, we had 45,000 people. You've got a lot of data to work with there."

Ariel previously led worldwide marketing for Amazon's cloud services business, AWS; his boss at the time, Andy Jassy, recommended that he call up a sampling of the participants in a niche program to determine its value to the company.

"Of the 300 people in this program over the year, we went and called up 20 of them and we got pretty consistent information: This part of what you're doing is super impactful to getting us to do more. This part [is] irrelevant, waste of time. This part, I don't care ... When there's areas of your business that you can't measure precisely, if you come up with three different imprecise, imperfect measurement techniques that are very different, then you can see it can actually end up being useful. If they're all aligning, your chances of them being statistically flawed in exactly the same way are pretty low."

Today on Building Better CMOs, Ariel talks with MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart about the transformative role of AI in modern marketing and Salesforce's innovative Agentforce platform. They also discuss prioritizing customer experience, the challenges of adopting deep learning models, and misconceptions in marketing measurement.

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Automotive marketing is fiercely competitive, and even though she's excited about the potential of AI, Nissan's Global CMO Allyson Witherspoon says an over-reliance on technology could be dangerous. She believes the safer bet is to continue to embrace creativity and a strong brand identity, even in an era dominated by AI and data-driven tools.

"If everyone is using AI and the data set is the same for everyone, then what's going to be differentiated?" she asks.

Today on Building Better CMOs, Allyson talks with MMA Global CEO Greg Stuart about how she adapted her leadership style for a Japanese team, the art of impactful messaging, and the importance of flexibility in the workplace. They also explore how marketers can better communicate their value within organizations and why listening is a crucial and sometimes difficult skill to develop.

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This episode was produced and edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm.