Mike Garrison, author of "Can I Borrow Your Car" and host of the "Why Should I Refer You?" podcast, is introducing a new Skill Set Series focused on referrals. The series is inspired by the TroutBitten podcast's skill series format, which breaks down complex topics into manageable segments.The upcoming Skill Set Series will cover various aspects of referral culture, particularly in the financial services industry. Topics will include:Defining referral culture

1. Starting and measuring a referral culture
2. Improving and adapting referral culture
3. Getting ideal client referrals
4. Giving referrals effectively
5. Handling referrals (both good and bad outcomes)
6. Working with centers of influence
7. Integrating referrals into other marketing forms
8. Mike encourages listeners to prepare for the series by:Reflecting on their business culture
9. Evaluating their current referral practices
10. Considering how others perceive their referral culture

He promises that those who complete this "homework" will be better prepared to implement the action steps provided in each episode

In this episode of the Why Should I Refer You? Podcast, Mike is joined by Walter Pollard, Founder at Brand Fuzion, and a strategic innovation strategist. Mike and Walter discuss sales strategies, referrals, and the impact of AI on business growth. Key points from the podcast:

1. The importance of being relevant and timely in sales, focusing on customers' needs rather than just leads.
2. The value of building relationships and trust with potential clients and referral sources.
3. The role of AI in sales and business strategy, including its use for prospect research and customer insights.
4. The need for businesses to develop an AI strategy and roadmap aligned with their overall objectives.
5. The potential of AI to empower referral sources and improve the referral process.

Connect with Mike on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikegarrisoncaniborrowyourcar/

Connect with Walter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/walterpollard/

Subscribe to Can I Borrow Your Car on Substack: https://bit.ly/CanIBorrowYourCarSubstack

On this episode of the"Why Should I Refer You?" podcast, Mike is joined by David Trent, Founder/CEO Trent Premier Growth, to discuss referrals, business relationships, and leveraging LinkedIn for professional networking. Here's a summary of the key points:

Key Takeaways

1. The importance of answering three crucial questions in business:
2. Why should I meet you?
3. Why should I buy from you?
4. Why should I refer you?
5. The value of success stories in referrals and building trust with potential clients.
6. The significance of continuous learning and sharing knowledge to become more referable.
7. Leveraging LinkedIn as a tool for finding people worth meeting and building professional relationships.
8. The importance of curiosity and engagement on LinkedIn to uncover opportunities.
9. Tips for becoming worth meeting, including concise storytelling and demonstrating value.

If you found this episode insightful; share with your network and take a moment to rate Why Should I Refer You? On your favorite podcast platform.

Connect with Mike: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikegarrisoncaniborrowyourcar/

Connect with David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-trent-82612016/

In this engaging episode of the Why Should I Refer You? podcast, Mike interviews TM Dickinson, a fractional sales manager and integrity selling sales trainer. They discuss the importance of referrals in business and share valuable insights on how to earn, ask for, and handle referrals effectively.Key points from the conversation:The importance of earning the right to be referred by delivering value and building trust with clients.

1. How to approach asking for referrals, starting with a conversation about the possibility of introductions.
2. The value of being specific when asking for referrals, including naming potential contacts.
3. The impact of personality types on sales and referrals, and the importance of adapting your approach.
4. The significance of self-awareness in sales and how it contributes to success.
5. Tips for building and maintaining strong referral partnerships.
6. The power of feedback and humility in strengthening business relationships.
7. Advice for mid-career professionals looking to boost their confidence and success.

Learn more about Mike: https://strategicreferralteam.com/

Learn more about TM: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tmdickinson/

Mike Garrison: Welcome to the Why Should I Refer You? There were different titles that were explored early in the process of this podcast. George was involved in those. But we decided this is the safe one. And so, George, you can insert expletive wherever necessary in the statement. But

Mike Garrison: the reality is is, you're a great guest to have on this. The oracle of growthology, I believe.

Mike Garrison: was the was the the title that you refer to yourself by so real quick. Introduce yourself to everybody. Let them know who the heck you are.

George Sandmann: Didn't expect that one to make it on the air.

George Sandmann: Well, Mike, it's great to it's great to talk to you for the rd or th time today.

George Sandmann: I am the founder and CEO of growth drive, growth drive is a business advising platform. You can hear me getting my sales. Guy voice on business growth drive is a business advising platform that's really built on developing knowledge providing business advisors, wealth advisors with tools, software and providing a very robust and sophisticated support package. It's really based on peer to peer support right?

George Sandmann: So

George Sandmann: in a nutshell, we help business advisors make profit and value growth, actionable.

Mike Garrison: So that last part was my favorite part.

George Sandmann: Yeah, cause there was fewer words.

Mike Garrison: Correct.

George Sandmann: Bye.

Mike Garrison: But that's okay. You know, we all suffer from that. So let's just get into it. So the st time you heard the title of this podcast why should I refer you?

Mike Garrison: What did you think? What was? What were some of the things that came to mind.

George Sandmann: Well, it was. It was. It was, you know, in an iterative, a very quick, iterative process. So guys think of think of slam poetry. Right? So why should I refer you what I really? I really like the title and what I like about it. Is it causes someone to to ask themselves, am IA good citizen?

George Sandmann: Am IA good partner? Am IA person who is going to? You know there's so many implications? Am I going to behave well in the engagement? I remember to dance with the one that brung me. Am I going to? Am I going to leave the client in better shape when I found them, and one of the reasons you and I get along so well is, we believe our vision is to leave an indelible positive mark with our clients

George Sandmann: and with our colleagues and with our colleagues. So that's

George Sandmann: you know it has. We could talk for the next  h about just the title. It's terrific.

Mike Garrison: Yeah, it's cool. You were one of

Mike Garrison: probably people that I was talking to about this when I was reconsidering Re, you know, doing a podcast again, and what kind of tipped me over? It was

Mike Garrison: observing how

Mike Garrison: a lot of people that have read my book.

Mike Garrison: can I borrow your car, which is really about how to handle referrals appropriately like how to how to be a safe driver. Yeah.

Mike Garrison: Still, we're not going to experience the results I needed because they were missing the most important part, and, as you know, I think there's critical questions in sales. Why should I meet you? Why should I buy you? And the most important, which is the check on everything is, why should I refer you?

Mike Garrison: Because sales, especially when you sell expensive things to individuals

Mike Garrison: or corporations. When there's when there's complexity and revenue involved.

Mike Garrison: referrals become absolutely vital. They may not necessarily in all

Mike Garrison: verticals.

Mike Garrison: be the dominant form of marketing.

Mike Garrison: but they are always incredibly profitable, and always incredibly meaningful

Mike Garrison: both to the salespeople and to the organizations. And and I think that most people, as you said.

Mike Garrison: don't really answer the question right? And so

Mike Garrison: I'm gonna throw it back to you. My observation. You've heard me say it before.

Mike Garrison: If the answer to why should I refer you is only valuable to the prospective client when they're in the market for what you do.

Mike Garrison: I'm gonna I'm gonna assert that that is why you're not getting many referrals. Let's say you.

George Sandmann: So that's really an interesting point. And I could, you know, there are kind of There's a fork in the road, and I'm gonna take it. The because one of the answers is, you know, we need to have, we need to share a commitment to customer success to customer satisfaction. Right? And we we essentially why I why should I refer? You goes to your own individual creating, your own high net promoter score.

George Sandmann: And so that that is.

George Sandmann: that is one thing you also must have, and you know we have guiding principles in the community. You must be a net giver, right? You need to be a person who is willing to give without the expectation. It's not a quid pro quo be a net giver. So those are the You know those are things that are that are

George Sandmann: that help create reasons. Create the answer to why should I refer you.

Mike Garrison: I I agree there, there really are. There really are answers that you have to have. There's answers you have to have.

Mike Garrison: If you really want to drive referrals predictably.

Mike Garrison: the st is a macro answer, right? And it needs to be something that is hyper, palatable. It's kind of like the doritos. Right it's got. It's it's got to have you all just have one more. And next thing you know, you've crushed a bag. You're sitting there in a carb, induced coma, with a case of diet Coke open around you in a

Mike Garrison: feeble attempt at mitigating the caloric onslaught. But I digress.

George Sandmann: For me. It's Pringles, yeah.

George Sandmann: Can't eat one.

Mike Garrison: Oh, yeah, Pringles are are horrible I am. But it's like this is like, your macro answer has got to work for your wider network. Right? So so for me, it's

Mike Garrison: I specialize in working with

Mike Garrison: high income owners of financial service companies. Right? So that's my kind of macro answer. And it's it is correct, right?

Mike Garrison: But it's not as powerful. However.

Mike Garrison: this is the problem with referrals.

Mike Garrison: We really don't want referrals from everyone we know.

George Sandmann: Correct.

Mike Garrison: We really don't, because

Mike Garrison: we will say statements like that, like anybody can refer you when the reality is is well. No, no, they can't. Anyone can waste your time. Anyone can

Mike Garrison: can promote you. I'm thinking of a particular person. We both know that owes you money. Anyone can promote you.

George Sandmann: Right.

Mike Garrison: Right.

Mike Garrison: I'm a bad person. I'm a bad person, but that person is a great example.

Mike Garrison: The challenge is is, what do you really want. And this is where the why should I refer? You gets powerful, and it goes down

Mike Garrison: the essentials. So you have to have like you, said George.

Mike Garrison: Like table stakes are.

Mike Garrison: You're likable.

Mike Garrison: You do good work.

Mike Garrison: and it's valuable right? Table stakes right like, you know. You trust you.

George Sandmann: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: Too many people spend all their time trying to convince people

Mike Garrison: why they should refer them on table stakes as opposed to

Mike Garrison: getting really specific, because really

Mike Garrison: the best answer to why should I refer? You occurs after you've got a name

Mike Garrison: right.

Mike Garrison: you know, so like when when I why should I refer you, George, right? When when I think about that, the answer to why should I refer you

Mike Garrison: to say a friend of mine is very different than why should I refer someone who does exit planning software.

George Sandmann: Yes.

Mike Garrison: Right, or when you talk to me about somebody you want to meet, that I know. Now we're talking about who.

Mike Garrison: how comes later, and that's the big problem. So a couple of things.

Mike Garrison: George, have you ever had a bad referral experience.

George Sandmann: Yes.

Mike Garrison: Was it today?

George Sandmann: Not today.

Mike Garrison: Back today.

George Sandmann: Today today so far remains to be seen how today's referral experience plays out.

Mike Garrison: So you really haven't talked to a lot of people today. No, just

Mike Garrison: so when when you think, when you think about some of your bad experiences.

Mike Garrison: and and I want you to to let's dive in

Mike Garrison: woo.

Mike Garrison: Talk to the audience about a bad referral that you received, because the answer in your network about why should I refer? You?

Mike Garrison: Was delivered incorrectly.

George Sandmann: Well, it's interesting. You know. There, there are so many opportunities to mess this up right, which is why you and I talk about the the concept of what I call what we call a growth drive. Strategic coi, right? How do you create a referral relationship?

George Sandmann: And that's where. Why, that's why you and I became friends. You know immediately. How do you create a referral relationship? And what we call we shorthand is collaboration

George Sandmann: and bad experiences can come from a number of different sources, and they come from not having a defined process. And anybody who knows growth drive knows that we are all about defined processes. So a bad referral can come, you know. st of all, you're just throwing people at me to try to make me feel good

George Sandmann: you know they're not. They're just not qualified. They're

George Sandmann: and qualification. If you and I don't have a relationship you may not understand, like I know, that you want to meet high net worth

George Sandmann: owners of wealth, advisory businesses, and anything you know, million is great, and a billion of assets under management is even better, and that is where you excel. And I know that if I meet one of those people I'm already.

Mike Garrison: I'm already.

George Sandmann: Like

George Sandmann: you need to meet Mike because Mike is gonna make your world better. Bad referrals are. Oh, yeah, hey? You know, Mike, he does that that referral thing, you know. Yeah, maybe you should talk to Mike. Waste some an immense amount of your time, but much more importantly, that referral ends up being a dead end street, and actually is bad for the referrer, because it it takes a even if it's just a little chip.

George Sandmann: It could be a chip, or it could be a chop

George Sandmann: out of

George Sandmann: the client's perception of of your value at the table, right.

Mike Garrison: Absolutely, you know.

Mike Garrison: I will say, from a giving

Mike Garrison: referral standpoint when we look at it.

Mike Garrison: And we talked a little bit about it earlier today on a a network we're in.

Mike Garrison: I find it especially frustrating

Mike Garrison: when people come to me

Mike Garrison: wanting me to refer to them

Mike Garrison: without ever having answered, why should I refer you right and so, and and to be

Mike Garrison: really generous.

Mike Garrison: I mean really generous to provide.

George Sandmann: Generous man!

Mike Garrison: To provide grace at a cosmic level.

Mike Garrison: You know.

Mike Garrison: these people are excited, and this is what happens right? They're excited. They they think that you can help them when I'm talking to you in the audience. This happens to you, too.

Mike Garrison: Don't don't ascribe, you know.

Mike Garrison: guard at Auschwitz

Mike Garrison: type of moral character to someone who's come to you and is kind of ignorantly being a predator. Right? They're there just to take

Mike Garrison: there. There is a compliment involved in that they do perceive that you are a giving person, that you're open to helping them, and that you can

Mike Garrison: the challenges. And this is from my perspective. I'm about to flip it to you, George is. There's a lot of stuff that happens. A lot of calculations happen inside the brain and inside the heart of someone that can

Mike Garrison: refer you

Mike Garrison: who actually has the capability to do it, and if they were approached correctly.

Mike Garrison: would do it on a potentially

Mike Garrison: repetitive basis, right? And so this is what happens with me. They come to me

Mike Garrison: and they they're trying to use something they read in a book that I wrote, or other people wrote referrals, and they're trying. They're trying to do the hey, you know, you're amazing. And I'm like, Oh, here we go, right, you know, like, here we go.

George Sandmann: And you are amazing, but.

Mike Garrison: We're no longer.

George Sandmann: I'm never gonna tell you that.

Mike Garrison: That's right. We're no. You're no longer buying me a drink. You're asking for my room key right?

Mike Garrison: Right? And and and the next thing you know they're like.

Mike Garrison: would you give me a referral? And sometimes it's that it's that simple. And and I get frustrated. Do you get frustrated when people come to you wanting help.

Mike Garrison: but a

Mike Garrison: not having sought to understand from you.

Mike Garrison: When you become willing to refer.

Mike Garrison: question one and then not

Mike Garrison: not giving you exactly what they want, so you can adequately

Mike Garrison: ascertain

Mike Garrison: what you're really being asked to do.

George Sandmann: Yeah, that's That's critical questions. Right?

Mike Garrison: Take it away.

George Sandmann: The is.

George Sandmann: hey, George? If you hey, George, if any Ceos ever come, you know, come crashing into the website, they fill out that form you, you know. Just remember that I'm out here like.

George Sandmann: Oh, okay, I'll remember that you're out there.

Mike Garrison: I won't.

George Sandmann: But what?

George Sandmann: Oh, remembering and doing something about it or 

Mike Garrison: Oh, it's good!

George Sandmann: But but.

Mike Garrison: Never, you know.

George Sandmann: That's and that's kind of a fair, you know, and we all want more business. So it's not an unfair question. But you're you're making

George Sandmann: you're you're kind of kicking up. You're kicking up the process.

George Sandmann: Gicking, by the way, is a term of art, is one of my wife's favorite words, and I use it all the time. So you're gicking up the process because that's not really. Now, if you said to me, it better, I think, if hey, George, I'm in.

George Sandmann: I'm in Denver, and if you hear about a manufacturing business in Denver, especially if they're like million and up

George Sandmann: who needs

George Sandmann: X help.

George Sandmann: then I'd appreciate it if you you know, I'd appreciate it if if I'd be if I could be on the list.

George Sandmann: That's a very different now. I'm like manufacturing.

Mike Garrison: Better.

George Sandmann: Denver. That's okay. At least now I have.

George Sandmann: You've you've you've helped map

George Sandmann: map out for me, you've also. And so that's 

George Sandmann: that's part of the answer.

George Sandmann: The other part of the answer is, in in my world, you know, being, let's talk selfishly. I have a community of people. I have a lot of people who who invest a lot of time and treasure in growth drive.

George Sandmann: and they are out using what we and they are. And here's the important part. They are paying money. They are investing time and money into the growth drive process. And it blows my mind when somebody shows up and says, Yeah, I'm not going to subscribe. I'm not going to. I'm not going to invest time and treasure in the community. I'm not even going to participate in the community. But when you need an investment, banker, why don't you? Why don't you just remember that I exist, Mike?

George Sandmann: I just have an equitable. This isn't a pay to play thing. This is an equitable thing I have. So you're telling me that I have really good high quality investment bankers who are investing their time. Let's leave the money aside. They're investing their time in the community they're contributing.

George Sandmann: and you don't want to do that. But you want to be treated. You're actually asking to be treated better than them.

Mike Garrison: Yeah, you know what I call them.

George Sandmann: You have made. It is impossible for me now, unless, by the way, I let me give a big, fat CAD caveat.

George Sandmann: If you are the absolute right person

George Sandmann: for this case, and I know that you are in all likelihood the the one person who can best deliver the clients results. I don't give a flyer how much time and effort you've put into the community you're gonna get that you're gonna get that referral because I care the most about the...

In this episode, Mike Garrison, and his guest Lori Power discuss Referrals and Business Relationships. 

- Mike and Lori emphasize the importance of having meaningful conversations and building relationships in business.

- They discuss how early in one's career, people tend to accept more referrals out of desperation, which can lead to "car wrecks" or unsuccessful partnerships.

- As professionals become more experienced, they become more selective about referrals and focus on quality over quantity.

Characteristics of Good Referral Partners

- The ability to have genuine conversations and ask thoughtful questions is highly valued.

- Knowledge transfer and confidence (not ego) are crucial for successful referrals.

- Affinity and shared interests can strengthen referral relationships.

Referral Strategies

- Following up after making a referral is crucial for maintaining relationships and mitigating risks.

- Understanding the expectations and potential outcomes of a referral before making it can prevent issues.

- Reciprocity in referrals is not required but can strengthen business relationships.

Value of Referrals

- Both speakers emphasize that referrals take time and have monetary value, so they should be given thoughtfully.

- Quality referrals are more important than quantity, and having too many referral partners can be counterproductive.

About Mike and Lori

- Lori Power works in group benefits consulting and is based in Northern Alberta.

- Mike Garrison is the author of "Can I Borrow Your Car?" and focuses on referral strategies.

Subscribe, Rate and Listen to the Why Should I Refer You? Podcast on Apple, Spotify and YouTube.

Mike Garrison: Hey, Carl, what's going on? Dude?

Mike Garrison: How's it going.

Carl J Cox: How you doing? Bro.

Mike Garrison: Man. I'm doing great.

Carl J Cox: Okay, we got all that stuff. Good. So have you. Did you do any hunting or fishing this past weekend?

Mike Garrison: Fishing. I don't. Hunting takes takes me away from fishing.

Carl J Cox: So, okay, so your priority is the fishing side. And okay, okay, cool. I was just because why did I assume? Maybe because I saw you in your camo gear. I assumed you were hunting then. But you you

Carl J Cox: primarily just fishermen.

Carl J Cox: Yeah, okay.

Mike Garrison: Because I like to fish for wild trout, and they're pretty spooky.

Carl J Cox: Oh, okay. All right.

Mike Garrison: So try your.

Carl J Cox: You're.

Mike Garrison: Yeah.

Carl J Cox: You're in ninja mode. Then.

Mike Garrison: Well, I mean as ninja as a fat older guy can be

Mike Garrison: true story.

Carl J Cox: Oh, man! So good!

Mike Garrison: My goal is not to fall down

Mike Garrison: when I'm fishing. It's like it's not to fall in and bash my knees

Mike Garrison: so.

Carl J Cox: That's so. Do you catch any good fish? This weekend.

Mike Garrison: No, it was it was different. It was different because

Mike Garrison: I've been kind of in a funk spiritually for about a year and a half.

Carl J Cox: Really.

Mike Garrison: Just really struggling and like prayer. Life has been awful right, you know, and basically I cause I came to. I came to faith later in life, through A, B and I group

Mike Garrison: through Referral Group.

Mike Garrison: And so I I never have connected with church Christianity.

Mike Garrison: Right. And so, and every time I do I default into this

Mike Garrison: facsimile of who I am

Mike Garrison: right. And so and I've one of the st books I read that really spoke to me was John Eldridge, wild at heart, like it was a I don't know if you've read that book, but it was a good

Mike Garrison: I I kind of moved away from it because I had gotten really excited. My dad not was not a Christian.

Mike Garrison: and I shared the book with Dad and was like, Hey, dad, this book is like, why, I feel like you're I became a Christian because of how you love me. You love me like this.

Mike Garrison: like God loves people in this book.

Mike Garrison: It didn't work. Dad died

Mike Garrison: an unbeliever. I was holding his hand. It was awful right.

Carl J Cox: Oh, man!

Mike Garrison: And so like I've been like I I really have been in a funk ever since my dad died

Mike Garrison: just and like everybody's like, well, you know my God's in charge. You don't know that he wasn't saved. I'm like, actually, I have a great degree of confidence

Mike Garrison: because of the conversation that he wasn't

Mike Garrison: I? I would love nothing better. But I don't live the platitude life.

Mike Garrison: you know. I've got a severely disabled kid platitudes just offend me

Mike Garrison: right. They just don't work. I don't often react to them. I just kind of like, okay, whatever you know. But so anyways, long story short.

Mike Garrison: Eldridge

Mike Garrison: just came out with cinema

Mike Garrison: quality videos

Mike Garrison: about wild at heart.

Carl J Cox: Oh, wow!

Mike Garrison: On Youtube.

Mike Garrison: on you, and they are. They're amazing. He had thought about having them on Netflix. That's how how good they were.

Mike Garrison: And and so I I've known about him for about a month, Carl.

Mike Garrison: but I I watched it for a little bit. Oh, I gotta do something else right?

Mike Garrison: And so finally, I was so frustrated with my, you know.

Mike Garrison: sin, life and everything

Mike Garrison: I was. You know what

Mike Garrison: I'm gonna sit down and watch a prologue, and it was freaking, beautiful.

Carl J Cox: And.

Mike Garrison: It was John Eldridge.

Mike Garrison: Fly fishing was kind of the theme

Mike Garrison: at the end of it. He's like, I realize that every time I go fly fishing. I'm looking for my dad, and I never find him.

Carl J Cox: Oh, wow! That put the hair on the back of my neck.

Mike Garrison: Yeah. And then the then the st episode is this dude from Wales.

Mike Garrison: who's a world famous artist doing stuff I've never seen before. He basically etches

Mike Garrison: on cowhide

Mike Garrison: big skins

Mike Garrison: and creates these

Mike Garrison: I've never like. I grew up in Washington, DC.

Mike Garrison: Dupont Circle, Georgetown Galleries. My dad used to frame for the National Gallery of Art. Like so like I've been to Rodin, I've been to all the stuff right?

Mike Garrison: It's like it's not that I dislike local art. It's gotta be art. But you know.

Mike Garrison: anyways, that

Mike Garrison: stuff reconnected me. And so the whole way down

Mike Garrison: to go fishing. It's about our drive to where I wanted to go fish.

Mike Garrison: because I have a less chance of falling at that place

Mike Garrison: because it's flatter.

Mike Garrison: I mean, I have to wear knee pads, Carl. It's pitiful.

Mike Garrison: And so like cause, I've got bad knees as a paratrooper. So anyways, whole way down, I'm listening to a podcast that Eldridge is doing about the prologue about the st episode.

Mike Garrison: And I'm like.

Mike Garrison: like, and this one guy

Mike Garrison: Mark, that st episode is like he goes every time I tried to do it. I was the st guy at church, the last guy to leave. I tried to fit in the box, and I don't fit in the box, and then I realized, God isn't in the box. God is wild and God like, and I'm like, Oh, and I was like, Oh, I mean, I really

Mike Garrison: I really it was. It was a great experience. It was great. I only caught fish, but I really was kind of meditating as opposed to.

Carl J Cox: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: Really fishing, and which is fundamentally what I'm looking for. So anyways.

Mike Garrison: That's what's going on. And so that's why I sent you that audio clip

Mike Garrison: because this podcast.

Mike Garrison: Is a

Mike Garrison: a, really.

Mike Garrison: if it works well, a really subtle and really sneaky call to faith.

Mike Garrison: yeah, Luke, 

Mike Garrison: is

Mike Garrison: price marketing plan

Mike Garrison: right?

Mike Garrison: Set the out, out, by Find a person, they receive your piece, there remain.

Mike Garrison: And and so that's really what this podcast. Is about. It's what the new book is going to be about, why should I refer you? Is the book.

Mike Garrison: My tagline is the most important word is the last word you.

Carl J Cox: Yeah, yeah, right.

Mike Garrison: Because at the core of this system is that human beings are

Mike Garrison: unbelievably precious and unique.

Mike Garrison: right and and like, you're worthy of being referred.

Mike Garrison: if you're human.

Mike Garrison: But now we got to get other people involved

Mike Garrison: right.

Carl J Cox: Exactly. Yeah.

Mike Garrison: That's ridiculous. But, anyways, how are you doing.

Carl J Cox: Doing well. No, I appreciated the

Carl J Cox: the transparency. I shouldn't be surprised. You're very transparent. But I appreciated the transparency on the face. It's interesting.

Carl J Cox: well, actually, I'll share with you. It was it was really good. So

Carl J Cox: This was last night when our our call with

Carl J Cox: call with my kids. So of my were on the call, and

Carl J Cox: anyways, but this is this is this is a Seth Holbrook. And so my son played football with this kid. He's years. One of my sons played football with him, says my heart is full.

Carl J Cox: days ago I tore my acl.

Mike Garrison: Hmm.

Carl J Cox: Tonight I toured again.

Carl J Cox: so do not do not mistake the red eyes and tear streak faces for sadness. Over the last year there's been plenty of pain and disappointment

Carl J Cox: at times felt like wave after wave, physical, emotional hurt. I'm skipping over little things. It's not for the hurt, the joy of sharing the field with my friends and teammates might be diminished.

Carl J Cox: not for the struggle I might not see and love my family as they do now, not for the pain I might not know, and this must be his girlfriend.

Carl J Cox: I can see Christ working through the storm. I know that nothing happens outside of his control, and that he will use all things for my ultimate good.

Carl J Cox: so thankful for that he's chosen to work in broken places and through broken people.

Carl J Cox: Even now I see Christ clearer than yesterday. I rejoice, knowing that he will continue to use my broken body to mold me into the image of Jesus. My heart has never been fuller. God has never been more gracious and more merciful to me than he is right now, so I'll continue to go. The journey of joy and rest of hope in him. I'm looking for me years from now, standing in the presence of my Savior, praising Him for the way he used this period of time in my life for glory and good.

Mike Garrison: Not a bad call?

Carl J Cox: And

Carl J Cox: and so what? What was what? Why, I bring this up is is

Carl J Cox: It's been good. I'm a bike

Carl J Cox: by my

Carl J Cox: build. How, how I was made. As I am a I'm a doer achiever st over people. That's that's why how I operate.

Carl J Cox: But I

Carl J Cox: recognize the importance of I love my wife. Love my kids, love, you know, but I'll recognize if there's a a doubt of often I'll take a path to do rather than to be.

Mike Garrison: And.

Carl J Cox: You know, and and so I've been. I've been reflecting on this a lot. I mean, I do a pretty good job of daily Bible reading.

Carl J Cox: You know. Pretty good job of of praying daily.

Carl J Cox: but

Carl J Cox: sometimes you we miss. I. Miss

Carl J Cox: Ims is

Carl J Cox: it. All he's asking is to be

Carl J Cox: like him, to be in him, to be with him right is to be in his presence.

Carl J Cox: because we can't do anything that will overcome the Grace. Right? It's just the grace that's been given. And so I'm just sharing this in my own self-reflection. It's for whatever reason it's been hitting me more because when I had my the Hernias surgeries.

Carl J Cox: the part of this is I wanted to get back to the hernia that I mentioned, while everyone was saying where there were you know, everyone was like saying, out of I was like, of course, in my head, I'm like, you guys are a bunch of liars. But outside of outside, but maybe they were, and you know, maybe they were wonderful. But what bothered me.

Mike Garrison: Out of 

Carl J Cox: Exactly.

Carl J Cox: But what bothered me last night was when this was happening. I was not like this kid, Seth Holbrook.

Mike Garrison: Oh, yeah.

Carl J Cox: You know. And and so here, this year old kid.

Carl J Cox: last night, just put this. I'm embarrassed now, looking back

Carl J Cox: at what I just went through the last months, because here I have an opportunity

Carl J Cox: to

Carl J Cox: B or and I did not.

Carl J Cox: I complained more. I struggled more. I you know I did not do the things that I could have, and anyways, it's a little self-reflection on my own journey, and here, by the way, I was not. I did not grow up a believer, but at college I became a believer and

Carl J Cox: and so yeah, it's it's this journey is the good news about reading the Bible? Is this everyone, every single one, except for Jesus, who, of course, because he's God.

Mike Garrison: Oh, yeah, okay, I you know I I take great comfort from the fact that everyone else complained.

Mike Garrison: You're like, I've I've resigned. I'm not, Elijah. I'm not taking the fast train right like, I'm not going to be gathered home like that. So I'm like, Okay, well, I'm here right? And so like I would just encourage you. It's like like, and it's not. I don't come at this from cynicism.

Mike Garrison: but I like when I hear stuff like that

Mike Garrison: I

Mike Garrison: I just think it's beautiful.

Mike Garrison: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: right? I I don't know his heart. I don't know him. I don't know what's really going on, and I've seen too many

Mike Garrison: men, let alone women

Mike Garrison: that work that God works through, and they say beautiful, wonderful things that make a difference in my life

Mike Garrison: only to discover that they were just as struggling as much as I was in a different way. And so I'm not diminishing him at all. In fact, I think I'm actually like

Mike Garrison: appreciating what it really is. It's just this beautiful, wonderful

Mike Garrison: act of worship to share that right.

Carl J Cox: And.

Mike Garrison: And and and I I wish him nothing but more

Mike Garrison: of that.

Mike Garrison: Right, you know. It's like people ask me.

Mike Garrison: They always try to understand what it's like being the dad that I am with the son, with the massive challenges. And and I always tell them I'm like you don't really want to know.

Mike Garrison: like I said, you just don't want to know, because it's not helpful for you.

Mike Garrison: and it's also not necessarily helpful for me

Mike Garrison: to describe how tough it is, I said. What you do need to know

Mike Garrison: is how it changed me

Mike Garrison: right. It didn't remove sin from my life.

Mike Garrison: It did not.

Mike Garrison: It did not make me a better person.

Mike Garrison: but it gave me an opportunity

Mike Garrison: to

Mike Garrison: grow

Mike Garrison: and be used in spite of myself.

Mike Garrison: You know, and people will come to me like man. I'm so inspired by how you share about your son. I'm like, really

Mike Garrison: like, okay, I mean, like, I, initially, I'm like, why, like, I'm just talking about how awful it is. So like, Oh, it's so inspirational, I'm like.

Mike Garrison: you know, and like, and I and then I used to get offended, Carl, because they'd be like, well, what inspired me is you didn't leave, I'm like, was that an option.

Carl J Cox: And.

Mike Garrison: And like. So I like, why? Why? Why am I getting adulation

Mike Garrison: for doing the absolute minimum standard

Mike Garrison: like? Don't abandon your family

Mike Garrison: woo. That's admirable, right? But but I've gotten past that now. It's like, okay.

Mike Garrison: fundamentally, one of the reasons God has taken me. I believe this, and I know it. The reason he's taken me is, I've had a couple of clients say to me, you know, Mike, one of the most important things about work with you as a coach right?

Mike Garrison: The least profitable thing I do, by the way, but one of the the most important things is, I know that there's nothing I can bring to you

Mike Garrison: that you can't handle.

Carl J Cox: Hmm.

Mike Garrison: I went. Well, don't. It's not a challenge.

Carl J Cox: Okay.

Mike Garrison: Quick!

Mike Garrison: It's not a contest.

Mike Garrison: Don't.

Carl J Cox: Yeah. What else do you have for me? God.

Mike Garrison: It's like, it's like, like, you know, you're doing well. You're blessed. This is good. So anyways, this is really what the podcast. Is about

Mike Garrison: like when you get down to it. Carl. Did I send you the questions.

Carl J Cox: And yeah.

Mike Garrison: I guess.

Carl J Cox: well, maybe you did. But I just listened to the recording part, so.

Mike Garrison: Yeah, it's good.

Carl J Cox: No, I I've done a couple of these, so we'll be okay.

Mike Garrison: Good. Yeah. The the basic concept is is exploring the intersection

Mike Garrison: between being thoughtful enough and professional enough to anticipate needing to answer this question, why should I refer you?

Carl J Cox: Right, right.

Mike Garrison: Also understanding the the intrinsic opportunity

Mike Garrison: that is offered to you doing business this way?

Mike Garrison: Right? Yes, yeah. Yeah. And and what what scares some of my clients is they're they're like, this is a freaking love story. I'm like, yep.

Carl J Cox: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: This is what it is right, you know.

Carl J Cox: It really is, because.

Mike Garrison: Like one of my favorite books, is raving fans.

Mike Garrison: And when you look at raving fans, raving fans is a story about...

Mike Garrison: Welcome to Can I Borrow Your Car? Podcast. Not. This is the follow up to the Can I Borrow Your Car book called, Why Should I Refer You? And when you really think about it, that's the question that kills most predictable referral systems because you have to get that answer right with your referral source. And that answer has also got to work. When your referral source talks to your potential prospect.

Mike Garrison: And so that's what this podcast is about. Is about. It's about straight talk. I've been doing this for longer than I care a bit almost years, publishing a couple of books on referrals and doing some referral stuff all over the country.

Mike Garrison: I have guests on the program, and today's guest is very dangerous for me because John not only knows where the skeletons are buried. In some cases he gave me a shovel.

John Lusher: This is true.

Mike Garrison: So John and I have been involved in multiple, different referral situations together in multiple different roles. And currently he is the king of the expanding retainer for me. Meaning he gets a bigger retainer for me all the time, and it's totally worth it. John's a stone cold expert in marketing, a fabulous human being

and a proud, proud West Virginian. 

John Lusher: Absolutely.

Mike Garrison: I was. Gonna say, raspberry.

Mike Garrison: I don't know if President's the right word.

John Lusher: I was. Gonna say, it seemed like there was something that you wanted to add to that. But I wasn't sure where you were going.

Mike Garrison: Well, my my inherent Northern Virginia prejudice was coming.

John Lusher: Nice.

Mike Garrison: I was gonna go straight. Grease, man. I said no.

John Lusher: Yeah, this is probably a good idea.

Mike Garrison: Kids might be honest, John, introduce them a little bit. Tell everybody what you do, and try not to give away too many secrets about me.

John Lusher: I'll do my best. I appreciate it, Mike. Thank you. As Mike mentioned John Lusher, I own The Social Buzz lab, a digital strategic marketing agency located here in Roanoke. I have owned it for a little bit over five years now, but I have been in the arena for almost 16 years. At this point in time. Before that I was in direct business to business sales, something else that Mike and I have in common. We shlepped around the State of Virginia, trying to sell copiers. And let me tell you, once you sell copiers, you can sell anything

John Lusher: So decided. I would much.

Mike Garrison: There is one person.

Mike Garrison: Yep.

John Lusher: Exactly decided I would much rather be in marketing and working in marketing than just in direct sales, and I've been doing that for quite a while. I enjoy it. It's a lot of fun. Nowadays, of course, as the saying goes, it's mostly digital, mostly online, mostly online communities. But it's still a lot of fun just to see what a business can do and how they can approach marketing. So to me, it's still a lot of fun, so I I intend to keep doing it for quite a while.

Mike Garrison: Cool man. So

Mike Garrison: you know, as from one copier guy to another, nothing beats a referral right.

John Lusher: Exactly, absolutely.

Mike Garrison: When you cold call for a living you learn to appreciate the value of a referral.

John Lusher: %.

Mike Garrison: When you look at your career, and and you and I are both old enough, and have known each other long enough that we don't need to ascribe too many

Mike Garrison: qualifying factors like years. When you look at your career.

Mike Garrison: what's been your referral experience, the good, the bad, the ugly.

John Lusher: Well.

John Lusher: Well, luckily

John Lusher: I'm thankful to say that there's been a lot more

John Lusher: good than bad and ugly. But there again, going back to the world of copier sales and even past that point I worked in kind of advanced within the industry, so to speak, and worked in computer networks telephone systems things of that nature from a sales perspective. And it's funny, because if I had to pinpoint where any of the or

John Lusher: maybe the majority of the bad and the ugly

John Lusher: occurred. It was during those times, not so much

John Lusher: now that I've been in marketing cause back when I was selling telephone systems, computer networks.

John Lusher: Was a member of a couple of networking groups.

John Lusher: shall we say?

John Lusher: And it was really a challenge.

John Lusher: because I could easily get up, describe what

John Lusher: our company

John Lusher: could do and did do for other companies, and you know, even in private, one on one chats, can you drill down further and really describe

John Lusher: to a T exactly everything that we did.

John Lusher: translating that into

John Lusher: people being able to properly pass, give, suggest, throw at me a referral

John Lusher: that meant something

John Lusher: was like pushing a boulder uphill.

John Lusher: and I think that the challenge wasn't in the industry that I was in

John Lusher: being so complicated, because

John Lusher: here's the bottom line. If you deal with business owners or businesses, all of them have a telephone system. All of them have computers

John Lusher: kind of simple

John Lusher: from that standpoint. So it wasn't a complicated industry.

John Lusher: However.

John Lusher: one thing that you know, and that I learned early on it's not the industry that you're in.

John Lusher: It's the people around you that you're talking to.

John Lusher: that you are hoping will be potential referral sources. Because I got to the point with

John Lusher: one group of people that I talked to.

John Lusher: because this company, in addition to computer networks, we did voice and data cabling

John Lusher: the wires that run into the walls that hook everything up.

John Lusher: I literally got to the point of saying, if you see

John Lusher: dirt being moved

John Lusher: on a commercial property, that's a great referral.

John Lusher: how general

John Lusher: can you get.

John Lusher: So I think that I think sometimes

John Lusher: the bad and the ugly referrals

John Lusher: are our own faults, because we don't

John Lusher: describe and really say, this is what we're looking for. We don't educate them properly.

John Lusher: but I also think sometimes

John Lusher: it's just who we're talking to.

John Lusher: There are just some people.

John Lusher: no matter how hard they try.

John Lusher: They're just not great at giving referrals.

John Lusher: They're great at passing a name along or thinking in their mind. This is going to be great.

John Lusher: not so much it turns out to be not a great referral.

Mike Garrison: Absolutely. Yeah, that that's it's real talk. And there's a lot we could unpack there. But we're not going to

Mike Garrison: the next. The next question, just kind of getting getting taken taken, that the reality that

Mike Garrison: there are always challenges with referral process always.

John Lusher: It's because.

Mike Garrison: Human beings are involved, right and

Mike Garrison: right. But fundamentally, you know.

Mike Garrison: if people want to have a slightly easier time

Mike Garrison: contextualizing it.

Mike Garrison: As in why you probably shouldn't be in a referral group, for example.

John Lusher: Yep.

Mike Garrison: Check out my book. Can I borrow your car.

Mike Garrison: John, when you st heard about this podcast title? And you did early on what? What came to mind when you thought of this podcast? Title being about? Why should I refer you.

John Lusher: Well.

Mike Garrison: Other than Mike's, a butthead.

John Lusher: No, the first, the first thing that comes to mind when I hear that is.

John Lusher: how can I educate someone

John Lusher: to best refer me?

John Lusher: Because when it comes down to it.

John Lusher: and this is the way that I always looked at it whenever I got what I thought was a bad referral, or just one that just didn't work out, whether it's bad or whatever the case may be. The way I always looked at it is okay. Look at. I have done differently

John Lusher: to educate that person.

John Lusher: because, typically it, it falls into one or or 

John Lusher: categories. In my opinion.

John Lusher: either that person didn't fully grasp

John Lusher: what was a good referral for me.

John Lusher: or they're just lazy, and they're just trying to.

John Lusher: you know. Here, here you go. Here's a referral God bless you, or, whatever the case may be, so it it falls into one or or things. I always looked at it as what could I have done better done differently. So when I heard the title, I'm like, Okay.

John Lusher: an opportunity to show how I would educate somebody. On referring me.

Mike Garrison: Yeah, it's it's really interesting, because

Mike Garrison: one of the great challenges with referral marketing is a lot of people that

Mike Garrison: benefit from it and need it desperately, have never had any kind of professional sales training.

Mike Garrison: so they tend. They tend to look at

Mike Garrison: a buyer's journey or a sales process

Mike Garrison: as being comprised primarily of the transaction right? And so.

Mike Garrison: That's of the big problems with.

Mike Garrison: you know. Why should I refer you? The reason I I invented that title, and the reason why it's going to be a book coming up in is because

Mike Garrison: it gets to all the factors. So like one of the factors that's involved is.

Mike Garrison: why should I refer you? And when

Mike Garrison: should I refer you? And and this is where this is why, you know number one for people listening. John is my marketing guy and that's because he speaks referrals and marketing and sales

Mike Garrison: But when you look at it, most people are trying to get referrals

Mike Garrison: for the least significant amount of time in a prospect's life. That brief moment.

Mike Garrison: if it ever occurs that brief moment.

John Lusher: In there.

Mike Garrison: That a business owner or a decision maker is in the market for what you do and doesn't know someone else already.

John Lusher: Exactly.

Mike Garrison: So that's that's honestly. That is why so many people get bad referrals number one. They're not worth referring

Mike Garrison: when the prospect's not buying.

Mike Garrison: They don't have the type of relationship or the type of value. Add beyond what they sell.

Mike Garrison: To make it worth me risking a meeting with one of my multimillion dollar clients

Mike Garrison: when they're not buying right.

John Lusher: Right? %.

Mike Garrison: Yeah, that's that's when you get down to it. So here's here's my question. You ready. Let's take.

John Lusher: I'm ready.

Mike Garrison: Take it even deeper.

John Lusher: Okay.

Mike Garrison: And you've got. Let's just say you've got plus years of experience with referrals. Let's just.

John Lusher: Yup!

Mike Garrison: Let's be really conservative and say.

John Lusher: is a nice round number.

Mike Garrison: I like it better than the other number. So.

Mike Garrison: John, from your perspective, and you have taught people referral stuff in the past. You have. You know you've been working with me for a long time.

John Lusher: True.

Mike Garrison: What makes someone worth referring to?

Mike Garrison: How did they answer that question? Why should I.

John Lusher: Well.

John Lusher: for. Well, for one thing.

John Lusher: I'm not going to refer

John Lusher: to someone unless I really get to know them.

John Lusher: and I don't mean that, you know we go on vacation together, or we play golf together half a dozen times before I refer them. But I need to know the person

John Lusher: kind of what they're made of. You know their character. I also need to know how they conduct business.

John Lusher: because otherwise. And this is the thing, and you and I both know this.

John Lusher: If I refer you to someone.

John Lusher: it's my reputation that's on the line.

John Lusher: not yours initially mine, because here's what happens. If it goes south.

John Lusher: The person that I refer you to! They're not going to complain to Mike.

John Lusher: but boy, will I hear about it, or the flip side of that coin which is the worst case scenario I never hear about.

John Lusher: But, boy, do they remember it? So before I refer someone there has to be that level of trust there has to be. I need to know how you conduct business, how you take care of your clients. You know the fact that you do take care of your clients, and you follow up, and you follow through, and you take care of issues, or whatever the case may be. If I don't know that I'm definitely not gonna refer you because it's like you're bringing someone into your family

John Lusher: that you really don't know.

John Lusher: And you know you and I both have been at this a while, and and we've learned from the best and worked with the best, you know, and one of our dear friends who's no longer with us. She and I referred business to each other over the years.

Mike Garrison: Literally.

John Lusher: That's.

Mike Garrison: Best, the best natural networker ever.

John Lusher: Yup, %. No hands down and.

Mike Garrison: Say your name. I almost started crying.

John Lusher: But once I got to know her, it was like, Oh, this is a no brainer. I mean, I could literally pick up the phone, call her and refer her to anyone because I never, ever had to worry about it. I didn't have to ask about it. I didn't have to second. Guess it. Once I passed it off to her and or made the introduction I was out.

John Lusher: didn't even have to cross.

Mike Garrison: The only thing with her.

Mike Garrison: You just never wanted to be a passenger in the car with her.

John Lusher: Yeah, that's a true statement. That's a true statement.

Mike Garrison: Everybody.

John Lusher: She. She could drive somewhere faster than anybody I've ever known in my life.

Mike Garrison: We're talking about a dear friend of ours, Kimberly.

Mike Garrison: who.

Mike Garrison: effing cancer, stole from us.

John Lusher: Absolutely.

Mike Garrison: Anyways.

Mike Garrison: there's a road that goes from Floyd, Virginia

Mike Garrison: to Rocky Mountain.

Mike Garrison: Actually, Boonesville, is it Boonsville?

John Lusher: Boons boon's mill, I think. Yep.

Mike Garrison: It's the. It's the moonshine trail.

Mike Garrison: I had the great misfortune

Mike Garrison: going with her from Floyd. I think it'd have been better for Boos mill up. But coming down from Floyd, which is feet to Boos Mill.

John Lusher: it was an experience.

Mike Garrison: I've been miles an hour on a motorcycle, and not been as scared as I was with Kimberly, and she was laughing at me the whole time, and saying things

Mike Garrison: that were very nice about my masculinity.

John Lusher: I'm sure I miss.

Mike Garrison: I miss her a lot.

John Lusher: Oh, absolutely sure!

Mike Garrison: When when you're when you're looking at this.

Mike Garrison: what makes someone worth referring to?

Mike Garrison: I think one of the one of the highlights. And this is, if you're listening to this podcast or Youtube or whatever

Mike Garrison: number one, it's only happening because John helps me. So know that. So just good get throw Johnson business. But number 

Mike Garrison: I want you to understand

Mike Garrison: that some of the temptations that might have happened in your brain would be like, well, that's not fair, like John's telling me. I gotta be like I'm part of the family, and he's given me all these these demands.

Mike Garrison: I would encourage you to ask yourself.

Mike Garrison: why doesn't he get to determine

Mike Garrison: what the standards for him referring are? Because I'm sure you have yours.

Mike Garrison: Secondly, John has moved past

Mike Garrison: the the

Mike Garrison: the

Mike Garrison: place in his career

Mike Garrison: where he's interested in a high volume of non valuable introductions. Right? And so.

John Lusher: Exactly.

Mike Garrison: You're listening to this in your member referral group.

Mike Garrison: you're probably under some type of pressure to produce a certain amount of referrals, which is why you leave the referral Group.

John Lusher: %.

Mike Garrison: And there's more reasons. I wrote an article about it. You can look it up on Linkedin.

Mike Garrison: but but realistically, at a certain point, as you become more successful, which is our goal. For this right referrals need to migrate, they need to scale along with...

Mike Garrison: Alright everybody. That was a great introduction by my friend John Lusher. But this is your actual host, me, Mike Garrison, with today's guest, Tina Corner Stoltz, an absolute sales God

Tina Corner Stolz: Got us.

Mike Garrison: Tina's a great friend. She's awesome. We're gonna have a lot of fun. But, Tina, if you wouldn't mind as opposed to me, just prattling off about why you're so awesome. Introduce yourself to the fine folks on the podcast.

Tina Corner Stolz: Thank you, Mike. I am actually excited to be here because I know we're gonna have a great conversation that has been unplanned. So I know the short story here is and there'll be a little bit of context, probably because of what we're gonna talk about today. But I did. I grew up on a farm in Missouri. and a very small place. Fast forward sales is my background, as you kind of referred to, and I sold telecom; long distance services when everybody was scared to death that if they switch from AT&T they would all, you know, lose their jobs, and you can relate because you sold copiers.

Mike Garrison: I owned a lot of cards.

Tina Corner Stolz: Yes, and I actually paid for my 1st job like I actually paid for my 1st sales job. I paid $1,500 to get it.

Mike Garrison: Yep.

Tina Corner Stolz: Full commission. And I, everybody goes, What do you mean? You paid? I go. It was during the day that you actually paid the recruiter.

Mike Garrison: Oh, yeah, as a salesperson. Yeah.

Tina Corner Stolz: As a salesperson, and I thought I was gonna actually die of not having any money to eat and stuff. So that's a different story.

Tina Corner Stolz: My mom gave me really good advice about just take rice and put a piece of cheese on it, and you'll be fine.

Tina Corner Stolz: So I fast forward, though. Got into the Peer group business in 2005 as a franchisee.

Tina Corner Stolz: and you can relate to that as well. And then started LX Council in 2013, where we are the educators in the Peer Group Space.

Tina Corner Stolz: Our mission is to educate and help those who want to create and run successful peer groups. We are the place for that.

Mike Garrison: I am definitely biased, seeing as I'm one of your clients. Yes, but today, the title of the podcast is, Why Should I Refer You? And I just want to set the stage, Tina. I talked a little bit about it, but this question is happening every time you meet with somebody that's a client of yours or a potential referral source.

Mike Garrison: The problem is in most referral systems, in most referral strategies or in the world at large.

Mike Garrison: This question is asked unconsciously and answered unconsciously.

Mike Garrison: And that, my friends, is not how we take care of other human beings and ourselves. We, the goal of this, is to help you understand that that question is real.

Mike Garrison: And that the most important word in that question is the last one you ask at the end of the day.

Mike Garrison: Don't be afraid of the question. Instead, be excited about who you are and finding people that want to help you.

Mike Garrison: When you heard the title of the podcast tina. What did you think?

Tina Corner Stolz: I thought this is typical. Mike Garrison.

Mike Garrison: Okay.

Tina Corner Stolz: Okay.

Mike Garrison: Gotta give everybody context that doesn't know me.

Tina Corner Stolz: I know I know who like. You're just straight out. Why should I refer you so? The direct, the direct statement that always can be counted on to come from you.

Mike Garrison: Yes.

Tina Corner Stolz: Yes. So when you said, this is the title, your, podcast. I actually thought that that is a very, very good title, because of everything you just said.

Tina Corner Stolz: Why should people refer you most of the time when people think the opposite right? Why should I refer to you? Which is what you're talking about, but they never ask themselves the question, why should somebody refer to me?

Mike Garrison: Correct.

Tina Corner Stolz: Yeah, correct.

Mike Garrison: And and and that really is at the heart of this, I mean

one of the things that Tina and I share for the podcast listener is. We both work with groups of people.

Mike Garrison: We both are in a position to refer a lot of business and a lot of people are aware of that, and want those referrals, which is not always fun.

Tina Corner Stolz: No, and they can't always have them.

Mike Garrison: Correct. So that leads us to. We're not. That's coming. But let's start here. When you think about your career in sales, and also as a business owner; How would you describe your experience with referrals?

Tina Corner Stolz: I find this interesting, by the way, that the first thing that came to my mind was a personal referral or on the personal side. And I'm not really sure why. Because I actually never thought about it before until you asked the question. And I am fascinated by it. That was the first thing that I thought of, which was when I was going to college.

Tina Corner Stolz: Okay, so keep in mind. I came off of a farm in the middle of nowhere. There were 30 people in my class, a hundred and 50 in my high school from 7 to 12. So that tells you most classes were under 20 people.

Mike Garrison: Wow!

Tina Corner Stolz: So we didn't have football, and there's all kinds of things. There's all kinds of things I was not aware of. I go to go to the University, Missouri. 

Mike Garrison: A small school.

Tina Corner Stolz: A small school exactly, and prior to classes I decided to go through sorority Rush. Right. Now I was unaware of a lot of the nuances of the big schools and how those social girl networks worked.And not necessarily having maybe the right clothes and all of those things.And so I went through a rush, and the house that I ended up pledging literally was because I was referred there.

Mike Garrison: All right. I'm in.

Tina Corner Stolz: Okay. So now I was I, and it was because I actually knew a couple of the girls there. But it was referred, and I was cut by my mom's legacy house.

Tina Corner Stolz: So it's okay, it dawned on me that wow! I don't know that I would have gotten in necessarily, or you know, it's very much. That's a very much kind of a little bit of who do you know? But refer back then it's less so today as it should be less so today. But I also look at my dad, and I recognize he never advertised. He ran many businesses, and I'm not aware of him doing a single advertisement.

Tina Corner Stolz: It was all Referrals.

Tina Corner Stolz: He ran a he ran a car dealership and he ran

a liquor store that was beside the dealership. So that tells you something, you know. Buy the car, get your alcohol, drive home.

Mike Garrison: What he needed was a tow truck.

Tina Corner Stolz: Did have one. It was a huge tow truck, and it was called Becky. After my grandmother.

Mike Garrison: No.

Tina Corner Stolz: Which was his mom. So yeah, he had a tow truck. Yes.

Mike Garrison: So I mean, that's a different kind of tech stack.

Tina Corner Stolz: Yes, exactly so. As you know, the Referrals, as you know, being in sales is, it can be make or break of being number one or not, and literally I found that and selling long distance, the importance of referrals. The importance of my sales team getting referrals so that we could be number one at our office.

Tina Corner Stolz:  And so it matters in the

Mike Garrison: Not that you like winning.

Tina Corner Stolz: Not at all.

Tina Corner Stolz: It's all about winning. It's not about losing, just, you know.

Mike Garrison: Right. Well, you know what second place is.

Tina Corner Stolz: That's right. 

Mike Garrison: 1st loser.

Tina Corner Stolz: Exactly the 1st loser. Is that what you said? I've never heard that.

Mike Garrison: Like. I saw Glen Ross, and I was like.

Tina Corner Stolz: Gotcha.

Mike Garrison: I was like. Well, that is very nice and civilized compared to my experience in the copier sales world.

Tina Corner Stolz: Yes, like.

Mike Garrison: Like he didn't hit anybody.

Tina Corner Stolz: He did not, he did not hit it. Yes, now he did it. Yeah, that's another thing. I watched it recently.

Mike Garrison: It's crazy. So I want to get back to something you said, which is absolutely true, and it really will bring us even deeper into the subject which is the make or break.

Mike Garrison: And so a lot of people don't understand that referrals

can absolutely make or break the individual salesperson big time, even more so when you think about scaling. So much of what attracted me to this referral concept when I 1st heard about it when I was selling copiers in DC, was this ability to have other people prospecting for me? I was ignorant. I didn't really understand. But I was like, Hey, this is great if I develop relations with other people, I can have more sales activity that I don't have to conduct every meeting kind of the top of the funnel concept.

Mike Garrison: The challenge is that like any real marketing system, if you invest poorly, you get worse results, because referrals take time like relationship development. And so when I look at the Why Should I Refer You? I I know, as a prospect or a referral source, whenever I'm looking at somebody that wants referrals for me, I'm all like as a business owner and an experienced salesperson. I'm always thinking first, not even about reputation, right? Because if I if I don't like you and trust you like, I'll be nice to you. But we're never. You're never making it back on my calendar. But I'm always thinking about all right. How much time am I going to have to invest with this person to generate the results that they want? And will that be worth my time fundamentally?

Mike Garrison: And I was talking about this with a technology guy this morning; people don't know how to sell to CEO’s.

Mike Garrison: You know. Like, if you like, getting somebody's attention isn't good enough anymore, you have to be able to get their attention and then reward them for giving you that attention. And the same thing happens with referrals.

Tina Corner Stolz: Platform.

Mike Garrison: Meeting, Your job is to reward the person that introduced you to that prospect you're meeting with. But you have to perform. So that takes us to this, Tina, from your this is a big question. Take it wherever you want…

Mike Garrison: What makes someone worth referring for you?

Tina Corner Stolz: Meaning? Why would I? Why would I refer to someone? What? What do they need to have for me to refer to them? Right?

Tina Corner Stolz: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: Keeping it, General, because there's a lot of ways you can respond.

Tina Corner Stolz: Yes.I when I think about the people that I love to refer to, or I do not like to refer to, it starts with, we have a, we have a trusting relationship.

Tina Corner Stolz: Aside from that, I understand what they do really. Well, I believe what they do really. Well, I think they do an exceptional job at what they do.

Tina Corner Stolz: etc.

Tina Corner Stolz: Table stakes right.

Mike Garrison: Table stakes right.

Tina Corner Stolz: Exactly right. That's like the minimum entry ticket. Right?

Tina Corner Stolz: But the rest is, how do they treat me? Because if they don't do such a great job there. They're probably not going to do a great job with whoever it is. I refer them to the thing, and you and I have talked about this before my number one pet peeve.

Tina Corner Stolz: And I know you hit upon this a lot, and I'm glad that you do, which is, which is the lack of when you do make the referral, and they never let you know how it went. I hate that. I like that I have that today. Right now. There is one that bugs me, and I'm waiting it out, and I'm waiting it out, and I'm waiting it out.

Mike Garrison: It's so frustrating.

Tina Corner Stolz: It is so frustrating. And it's and I almost. It's gonna sound dramatic, not intentional. It's disrespectful. Because you know, haven't they made a referral, and wondered how things went, and then when they realize like, Oh, I should, you know at least say thank you. Give an update or something right, and then it just never happens. And then you finally go, hey? Whatever happened to whatever? Oh, you know, I mean to tell you. No, you didn't because

you didn't until I just reminded you. I wanted to know, right?

Tina Corner Stolz: So I know you do talk a lot about that, but one that I will follow up, and that they're actually grateful for and appreciate it.

Tina Corner Stolz: Because and I know you talk about this.You kind of want to know. Did I hit the mark? Did I not hit the mark? Was that a good referral? Was that not a good referral? So I can learn for the next time.

Mike Garrison: Now, that's key. So I just gotta make this point because that's beautiful. What people don't seem to understand, and really is going to be a big emphasis on the book. Why Should I Refer You? That's going to be coming out next year is digging even deeper into the concept that I talk about in Can I Borrow Your Car  which is a person apiece in this referral game. If you sell stuff that's expensive, that's really worth referral marketing. Financial advisors are near and dear to both of our hearts, for multiple reasons.

Mike Garrison: Including marriage right? Right? But like these, these professionals sometimes get taught referrals in a wide angle, kind of thing. And I do have a strategy for that. It's simple. You tell people you love referrals and then help them right there you go. Don't need new meetings for that, but we get into the micro application. Tina. And this is really what you were talking about.

Mike Garrison: You have to be able to identify who really likes the referral process. And when I say that I'm talking about all three  participants; the salesperson, the referral source, and the prospect right? And that's what I feel like has never been talked about enough, includeing by me.

Mike Garrison: Is that what we're really looking for is some psychographics. Right? Because you're one of those people that doesn't just want to refer and say, good luck, don't want to hear like there's an aspect of hey? If I gave you something I want to make sure it helped you and was useful. That is the number. One thing I look for, and I teach my clients, Find and identify the people that enjoy, that get emotional, cognitive rewards from helping other people. And all you need is 5 of them.And you will rule the world in your little niche. Right? And that's it. And and so what's interesting is, you specifically talked aboutthat you're kind of looking at this person that wants those referrals to have that mindset as well like, Hey, this is great. This is cool. Of course I'm gonna let you know, like I dropped the ball on a couple of referrals, not completely. But I I got overwhelmed with too much business.

Tina Corner Stolz: Like what happened to you.

Mike Garrison: I will. I waited too long to hire more staff. And then I got overwhelmed. I had a friend who's on the podcast right now with me, who had told me months ago, I needed to hire an assistant, and I didn't listen. There. I admitted it. I didn't say you did it, but I admitted it. So we and I I apologize. Luckily most of the time I'm on board, and I'm on top of it. And so you build margin because referrals aren't always going to go great. Sometimes stuff slips through the crack.

Mike Garrison: I had somebody give me the riot act yesterday in an email.

Tina Corner Stolz: You?

Mike Garrison: Yeah, I had done a presentation to this large group of people for free about centers of influence, and say, Hey, look, you know, if you want to follow up with me, and you know connect, we can do it, you know, like, and I do, that all the time. But this person had sent me an email basically telling me, Hey, look, I I know you have referrals to give coaches. I'm here for it. Let's schedule a meeting.

Mike Garrison: And so I initially didn't respond. I just didn't respond because I was like, like it wasn't a huge issue. They're not a perfect

vendor for me right? But then they sent me a follow up email 4 months later. I guess not. In the future you might wanna tell the truth when you tell people you're willing to help them.

Mike Garrison: And so I looked at it for a while, and I responded back, and I said, Hey, I apologize. I did drop the ball on that. I got your email. I just forgot about it. I'm sorry I didn't say, let's have a meeting.

Mike Garrison: But I was like I dropped it. And he actually, you know what I apologize. I should have followed up earlier, and I have not responded, because I agree with him.

Mike Garrison: Cliff this like, why are you? Why are you guilting me

when I'm a potential referral source? Oh, my, let's just let's just class. I'm sure that's happened to you where someone is like. Wow! Tina could give me all this business. Which is true for a number of different people. Not that you will, but it's true. And then all of a sudden they get angry at you before you've agreed to do it. They get angry.

Tina Corner Stolz: Moment.

Mike Garrison: Yeah, like, how have you? I know it's happened to you. How have you dealt with that in the past with the people that are just bad actors? But potentially because they were referred to you or like part of your network. How how do you handle that that part of contention.

Tina Corner Stolz: I,you know, cause you never want to lie so right. No lying. So what I.

Mike Garrison: You shouldn't lie. I I do want to lie sometimes.

Tina Corner Stolz: I know it's tempting, but it's like, no. So because I know you know, you're a faith based guy, and so am I. And so you get you struggle sometimes like what you really want to do versus what you should actually say. 

Tina Corner Stolz: I actually say. When I get somebody coming in hot, and I can tell they're like, you know. What can you do for me? What can you do for me? And we don't have.

Tina Corner Stolz: We haven't built a relationship at all, or minimal. And I you know. What I will say is that I hear it. Thanks for the time. It's good to, you know. Good to hear. You know exactly what you do, etc. I just don't have anybody right now that I think is a good fit. And then I never do...

Mike Garrison: All right, everybody welcome to the why should I refer you? Podcast. Which is totally my style. We're just going to come out the gate, ask the hard question in fact, I would argue, the most important question in business is, why should I refer you? And today's guest, the 1st official superstar on this podcast is the dude who's responsible for this podcast happening.

Larry Levine: Come on, Garrison!

Mike Garrison: Totally, Larry. So I'm gonna explain that late 1st 

Larry Levine is the best friend I've ever had that I've never met physically. We tell each other we love each other every time we finish in.

Larry Levine: True truth to that everyone, truth to that.

Mike Garrison: Right, and yet we've never met. We've we've met, we've had a surrogate, so like Daryl Amy is our surrogate. So I hug Daryl Larry Hugs Daryl. And that's kind of how it works.

Mike Garrison: Larry. other than being my most trusted and most respected voice in the sales world. Tell everyone a little bit more about yourself, including why we 1st became friends.

Larry Levine: Well, I thanks, Mike and I, you know I wish you so much goodness on this podcast. When it comes to referrals, you know I look up to you. I just think you're the referral whisperer. I've often shared that with you, but for those who don't know me my name's Larry Levine, I mean Mike and I I can't. It was so funny Mike and I were on it. This is this is, gonna go off tangents, people y'all just gotta just hang with us. But I was on a call with Mike. This was a couple months ago, and he was saying, Hey, you know, we've only been connected. What maybe, like.

Mike Garrison: 8 7 8 years.

Larry Levine: 7, 8 years, and wasn't it like you? Tell me.

Mike Garrison: It was 12 or 15.

Larry Levine: It was like incredible. But just how time flies by. But it's truth. I love this guy. He has a message. It needs to be heard one of these days. I know we're gonna slap high fives face to face. But we met. We met in the social lane we met in the social lane, because our messages resonated with each other, and we had an interesting backstory because we all grew up, you know, back in the days when we were peddling copy machines, but I but peddling seriously, but I took my 3 decades of selling copiers in Los Angeles, and I parlayed that into bringing a message that I believe sorely lacking in the sales world today, Mike, and that's how to bring authenticity, how to bring trust, how to bring the best version of yourself to the forefront. So I've been blessed to have a podcast now going on almost 8 years with my dear friend Darrell, Amy, selling from the heart selling from the heart how your authentic self sell you sells you has been out 6 years now believe it or not. and I just released my second book Selling in a Post Trust world just a few months ago. So I'm all about authenticity and trust in the sales world.

Mike Garrison: Epic book. Right? So 1st of all, everyone listen to this, buy both books, but read selling from the heart, first, st because it sets the table. but the the the trust one's amazing because you have me on your podcast and this is why this podcast exists and you you were like talking to Daryl, and you said, Yeah, Garrison, the one the one thing you told me when I was out, when you said you were out walking in 1,000 oaks, 1,000 oaks, right.

Larry Levine: Yeah, correct.

Mike Garrison: You're like you asked me this profile question, which is, are you referable, Larry? Are you? Are you referable?

Mike Garrison: And I I gotta tell you, Larry, that that thing launched something in me. Right? So I'm doing some. Some success is finally starting to come my way. But I the more I consider that real question is, which is, why should I refer you? The more I I consider that question. the more 30 years of trying to help people understand how to be productive with referral marketing without ruining your life. And we've seen it like people that just start networking. But don't have a plan. They don't make quota. They go out of business, and they're like referrals. Don't work. It's like, no, you didn't have strategy right. But that's the most important question. Because guess what inside of why should I refer you is, why should I meet? Why should I buy like those those 3 questions, span an entire business? And so, and you're the perfect person, because, like, I will say, we peddled copiers. But we didn't work for that company that had a copier in the car.

Larry Levine: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: Drove around. I'm not saying the name of the company, but I hate them. 100% hate them because I'd walk into one of my accounts, and there's that bleeping copier from that bleeping company.

Larry Levine: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: They're like, well, they just offered to leave it here, I'm like, Oh, hey?

Mike Garrison: So any anyways. So, Larry, the 1st question we're gonna hit and this is a big one. So we're gonna go big. And then we're gonna get narrow. But what is your experience with referrals in business?

Larry Levine: Yeah, hey? But I'm gonna answer this. I'm gonna answer it, and I'm not dodging it. But I I do. I want to play off of the are you referable? Because it's going to blend into answering your question. But I think the reason why this came up, and Mike and I've always gotten into some wonderful conversations when I'm out for walks. But I want us to think about this for a moment, because my experience with referrals all comes back to. I believe I'm referable, and the reason why I believe I'm referable is because I pour my heart and I pour my soul into my clients. I shine the light on my clients, I help them become better. I not only get to know them as a business person, but I get to know them as a person.

Mike Garrison: So congratulations on ruin, the entire podcast.

Larry Levine: That.

Larry Levine: And, by the way, and by the way, I and you know that's that's not. That's not my style, but it goes back to. I think the reason why most people experience with referrals is more negative than positive it goes back to. Are you referable? What have you done to become referable. And we started sharing this prior to the You know us recording. This is, I hold you in high regards, Mike, when it comes to referrals, because I think you know, I've said I've coined this thing. You're the referral whisperer, and I and I said, You know, tongue in cheek. You know way more about referrals in integrating them than I do. But right? But the the big BUT. Is. I just learned that the more I poured myself into my clients the more I understood their goals, their dreams, their aspirations, and how I can help them get there. Then this happened, the more I believe I've earned the right to ask for help. and I equate that help to referrals. So you know my ex. My experience in this is, I just believe that the more I poured into these people, the more they would pour into me and the way and my experience with asking for referrals it wasn't referrals to a sale. It was just a referral to a conversation I can have with somebody, and the common theme in all of this was the 3 people that were in the mix myself, my client, and the person they referred me to, and all I was looking for was a conversation. So all my experiences referrals have been positive. I haven't had that much negative experience with referrals, because the referrals that I got were referrals to a conversation which pushed me to the front of the line with the trust factor. Almost immediately.

Mike Garrison: So that's great. Everyone. There is a transcript with this. You should read it.

Mike Garrison: So, Larry, which is normal. Everyone understand? Larry and I've been talking about this stuff for over 12 years. And so this, which is why we're not following the agenda of the podcast because we wouldn't anyways a a couple of points. I want to highlight Larry, and then get you to agree. Disagree. So the the 1st and most important part is, you're not asking your clients to make the sale for you. You're asking them to give you a favorable introduction to have a conversation that right there dramatically, and I talk about this in my book. Can I borrow your card that dramatically reduces the risk of everyone in that 3 way relationship? Right? Because fundamentally and and this is a question. Now for you, I think the biggest problem in referrals is 2 part number one. We want to offload the responsibility of being a professional salesperson onto the referral source. We want them to figure out who we should meet. We want them to convince them to meet. We want them to have that person ready to buy. Well. there's a big problem. With that. the interval of time that someone is in the market. Take a business owner is in the market particular for a particular product or service. and knows no one else to buy from is so small. It's not funny, and yet so much of marketing, so much of sales, and almost all of the other referral people are trying to identify that brief moment in time. What you need to do is exactly what Larry said. You need it. Part of being referable is not having to be introduced to somebody ready to buy. but knowing who you want to meet knowing why you're worth meeting, even if they're not buying and being valuable because of your intent, which is why I love your book. Why, I recommend it, you know, selling from the heart isn't closing from the heart it's selling, it's conversating. What do you think about what I just said? You agree with that.

Larry Levine: No, no, I agree. And I just gotta. I have to play on this because I write about it in selling from the heart. Mike. And and I think this has everything to play. This has everything to do with what we're talking about. And it was simple. And it's just this is something I held myself accountable to. Now I coach to it is if you want to have a full sales funnel. you have to build a full relationship funnel. Yes, and and so where? Where I'm going with this and how it plays with referrals is weak sales, funnels cause salespeople to do things they normally wouldn't do if their sales funnel was full. So let's equate this to referrals. So let's just say right. Let's just say, for instance, I'm that salesperson who has a weak sales funnel. and I believe in referrals, and I believe in the power of referrals. So when I have a weak sales funnel, and then I go and ask somebody for a referral in the back of my mind. Correct me if I'm wrong in the back of my mind. I'm going, man. I hope this is a referral to a sale because I got an anemic pipeline. So you've walked in. You've walked into this referral. Ask with high intention and high attachment. because I got a because I got a weak funnel. So now, if we flip this around, and if you do it consistently, which means you got to do it daily, and it just requires practice. It requires intentionality. This is where I believe you can flip the script on referrals is every day. You must be asking people now, this could be clients. These could be your centers of influence. These can be prominent people in the marketplace that you know that you've built friendships with, and things like that. These could even be prospects along the way that you've had conversations with, but you have not yet sold them something you just ask. And it's just to ask for, you know. So just like, Okay.

Mike Garrison: I'm gonna challenge you cause because you're you're you're not wrong. But you're missing all the benefits of referral scaling. Yeah. And it's unique because yours, you've spent years pouring into people. Right? So you've got a but 2 things. Number one. The reason people have a weak, inbound referral funnel is because they have no outbound referral funnel right? And so at the core. If you are somebody that wants to really take advantage of referrals. you've got to figure out first, st how you're going to consistently and predictably give referrals to people. because that number one that will 3 x the amount of referral conversations you have cause. I'm here to tell you, and this is this is. The problem with with having your default referral strategy be asking for referrals? Is it limits? How many conversations you can have about referrals? Because people only have so much bandwidth to help you. But when and this like, well, I'm challenging you. But I know you're doing it. I'm just trying to reclarify terms. Yeah. when when most of your referral conversations which 90% of mine are are about how you are effectively giving them ideal introductions as a normal part of what you do, scheduling it. I do between 10 to 20 meetings per month. in which the only thing I'm doing is identifying who that person needs to meet and referring them like that's that's the the biggest part of my sales. Funnel is actually around outbound referrals. The advantage of that is when I do ask. I have an extraordinarily high success rate, because there's leverage in the best sense. The other big thing that people don't get is you can't offload specific spit that word specificity. whatever that. Can you say it for me, Larry?

Larry Levine: Specificity.

Mike Garrison: That word. You can't offload that on your client. I couldn't even say it. And here's what happens. You ready. Larry. Look, we're gonna do a test. We're doing a test. We're doing good on time. Would you mind giving me the name and the company of a prospect that you would love an introduction to right now. Can you think of one.

Larry Levine: Are you asking me to give you an like a real like a real.

Mike Garrison: Absolutely.

Mike Garrison: Who's somebody you want to meet.

Larry Levine: okay, I'm I'm going for the gusto on this one who's somebody I want to meet. Because I look up to this person I want to meet Craig Grischel.

Mike Garrison: Okay? Well. me, too. You can go 1st you get in. I'm second. So here's the thing I know of, Craig. But I don't know him. It takes a second, a millisecond for me to figure that out. And that's the number one problem. When people ask for referrals, they're not asking based upon research. right, which now is social. We've got unprecedented access. They're not doing the pre work. When I, my system is, for example, I'd love to meet Michael Kitsis. Do you know, Michael Kitsis.

Larry Levine: No.

Mike Garrison: All right, if you did. Michael Kitsis is one of the most credible, widely known financial services experts in the world. He's amazing. Guy. I'd love to meet him. Somebody else, I know knows him and is working on it. But I always like multiple referrals for a big dog. You know what I'm saying. Like, if you can get 3 or 4 people helping you get an account, you win it. It doesn't take you a second to know about it. But if you did know him, my next question would be, Hey, Larry. that's awesome. Would you be comfortable having a conversation about whether or not, you might be willing to introduce me. I don't go for the hey. Will you give me the referral I 1st identify? If you know the person. Second, let's qualify and reduce perceived risk. I'm not asking you to give it to me and ask to have a conversation. then that conversation is naturally and I mean, naturally, 100% gonna evolve to. You know what we're connected on, Linkedin. I have no freaking idea who he is or Hey,... this is one of my best friends. And now we start. So you always do. Who to refer before how technique follows the relationship? It does not lead the relationship.

Larry Levine: So so here's here's what's interesting. And I knew we'd get into a good conversation around this. So I got to go back because I want to bring. Now we're all I have my style when it comes to all of this, just like you have your your style, but I am going to share with everyone who's listening or watching what worked gold for me. And it's probably going to go against every Mike Garrison grain on this.

Mike Garrison: What it worked and.

Larry Levine: No, but but it worked. But here, here's why I'm a massive believer. If you want to get referrals, you gotta give right. And the way you're gonna get. This is hang with me on. This is if you, as a seller, can understand the outcomes, the goals, the initiatives that the people you're working with want to achieve a you might be able to help them with some of them. You're probably not going to be able to help them with all of them. That's where you can pull in your network to help them. So that's the referral giving part of this. Yes, but and I still do this to this day, but when I was in the copier channel, this is something I did, and it goes back to earning the right. And I said, this earlier in our conversation is, if you're pouring into people, you're there, you're giving them an experience like none other. It's okay to ask. You have earned the right. and this means that you might be asking more than you're giving. But it depends on how you're asking.

Yes, and so follow. Follow along with me on this, because this is the power of building net. This is the power of building a network and connecting to your clients is, and this goes back decades ago, Garrison, I was doing this is, let's just say. Mike, you're a client of mine, Mike, you're the Cfo of ABC. Company. 

Who are you?

Mike Garrison: Bad for that company.

Larry Levine: Yeah. But I'm just using as as a mere example. But we've had a course. You know, we've had a great relationship over the course of the past couple of years I've been taking care of your account. We we do routine reviews where we're sitting down. We're talking about goals and initiatives. I've been there for you. I've never broken a promise. You get where I'm going with this. And then, prior to my visit with you, Mike, I would look on Mike's network, and I would just lean into his network. And I'd write down 5 people that Mike was connected to that fit the role of somebody that I'd like to have a conversation with. Yes, and I would add, and I'd ask for help, and it would just be. It would just be something as simple as Hey, you know, Mike. I'm enjoying the opportunity and getting to serve you here over at ABC Company for the last couple of years in doing a little bit of research in your network. I've noticed that you're connected to these 5 people. Boom! Here's the list of the 5 people, hey, Mike, I'm just curious out of these 5 people, any of them that you know.

Mike Garrison: There's nothing wrong with that at all right. But here's the thing you ready earning the right to ask, and I want everybody to listen, and I I know you'll agree with me. Delivering great service is the prerequisite for retaining a client. It is not the prerequisite for getting referrals, because.

Larry Levine: No, no, I agree, because because that I mean, that's that's just the bet that's the bench. That's what they're paying you for. But if you can.

Mike Garrison: Wasn't what you were talking about. You're talking about more.

Larry Levine: Yes.

Mike Garrison: Right cause cause. Here's the thing like Larry and I sold copiers, and we sold copiers when they weren't digital, and they jammed all the freaking time. Now Larry is in California, which is nowhere near as bad as DC. For copiers. swamp humidity jams all the time. Everywhere I went there was a there was a cartoon over every copier, Larry, about copiers being broken and stuff so. But I learned early on, and you you and I talked about it is. if I could get some of my network buddies, Leon Gibbs, the commercial mover, the commercial carpet guy, the phone guy, if I could get them involved when it was the right time for the client to buy. I noticed that my referrals increased. Also. I I usually get the. I usually got to write the Rfp. As opposed to being a victim of the Rfp. Right? And, by the...