In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Jesus's parable of the dragnet from Matthew 13:47-50. They examine how this often-overlooked parable reveals profound truths about God's kingdom, final judgment, and the ultimate separation of the righteous from the wicked. The hosts explore the rich Old Testament connections, particularly to Habakkuk, and demonstrate how this parable complements the parable of the wheat and tares while emphasizing the judgment aspect of God's kingdom. Through careful textual analysis and theological reflection, they remind listeners that God's sovereignty extends over both salvation and judgment, challenging believers to live faithfully in light of the coming sorting.

The hosts identify a paradigm-shifting perspective in this parable: the kingdom of Heaven includes not just the blessing of the righteous but also the judgment of the wicked. Tony notes that Christians often think of God's kingdom only in terms of the elect enjoying fellowship with God, but this parable reveals that God's sovereignty and kingship extend to His judgment as well. The dragnet gathers everything in its path - both the "good" and "bad" fish - demonstrating that all people will be brought under Christ's authority for evaluation. This understanding challenges the common notion that hell is somehow outside God's domain. Rather, even the punishment of the wicked falls under God's sovereign reign. This more comprehensive view of God's kingdom reminds believers that God's authority is absolute and extends to every corner of creation and every spiritual reality.

Jesse highlights how the specific term "dragnet" (as translated in the LSB) carries significant theological weight. Unlike a typical fishing net cast from a single location, a dragnet was stretched between two boats and systematically pulled toward shore, catching everything in its path. This imagery powerfully communicates that no one will escape God's judgment - the net catches all kinds of fish indiscriminately. The hosts connect this to Old Testament passages, particularly in Habakkuk, where God's judgment is described as a net that captures entire nations. This emphasis on the comprehensive nature of judgment confronts our culture's belief that individuals might somehow avoid accountability before God. The parable teaches that all people will face judgment, with the difference being not whether they are caught in the net, but how they are categorized once caught. For believers, this underscores the necessity of being found "in Christ" when the sorting occurs.

"Either way, you can't escape the net. This is profound because I think so much of our culture thinks they're gonna escape the net or the nets. They're gonna be able to get outside of the net." - Jesse Schwamb

"Hell is the absence of, is the presence of God absent grace, right? Unmediated... It's God's unmediated, absolute entire wrath poured out on wicked sinners. That's what hell is." - Tony Arsenal

"We gotta sit down at the table, take our time... Have the family style dinner passed around. Talk to everybody and set aside the time... We're taking our time to enjoy and to savor. And I think you and I are always trying to grow in that to some degree. But here again, we have just a lovely excuse to do a little savoring of the scripture." - Jesse Schwamb

[00:00:45] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 470 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. 

[00:00:53] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. 

[00:00:58] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. How about we start with an incredible understatement. It is a blessing to have the direct teachings of Jesus.

[00:01:09] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes. 

It's 

[00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: end of episode. 

[00:01:11] Tony Arsenal: That's true. 

[00:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: We could just stop there. 

[00:01:12] Jesse Schwamb: We won't, because we've been hanging out in the parables, which I know sometimes people will say to us, wow, your episodes are so definitive. They're just so good. But they, they, it seems to take so long to go through things and I just wanna address everybody right now and say to you.

We hear you. We love you. But we don't care that much about that critique because 

[00:01:33] Tony Arsenal: it's true. 

[00:01:34] Jesse Schwamb: I think what you and I have been finding out is going through these parables is like the difference between like scarfer and a burger while you're driving down the highway versus like sitting down at the table to eat and enjoy like a seven course meal with people that you love like that, the latter of those two.

It takes time in preparing and it takes time to enjoy. Yes. So I like the pace we're going at and we're going into what I'm calling the Jesus nothing but net parable. And you know, some of what I think Jesus does here and we're gonna talk about to set all of this up, is he does have this wonderful and incredible ability, like a goldsmith who's like taking a piece of metal and hammering it out, turning it over, hammering it out.

He's fashioning it into a fixed frame of his desired choosing. But it's almost as if he's, he's prompting his listeners to a type of meditation that is the hammering of truth or a point propounded, and we're about to get to that because he's going to bring some judgment and some fire. And this nothing but net parable.

It hearkens back to something he just said, and he has this tendency in his teaching to say something like, and again, the kingdom of heaven is like this. And also, and again, it's like this. And so here we have yet another one, and I think we've done maybe four or five of these. And again, yeah. And so I say to you, love ones, and again, here we go.

It's gonna be great. Yeah. So Jesus coming with heat and with the fire on this episode and we're gonna try to bring it too, but 

[00:03:01] Tony Arsenal: yeah. And we're not even out of the first chapter of Parable. No. Like we're still in the first chapter of scripture that we've started and we're like. 10 weeks into this series, so, which is great.

I love it. I'm, I'm 

[00:03:12] Jesse Schwamb: all for it. Can't stop. Won't stop. 

[00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: So speaking of things we will not stop doing, we will not stop affirming with or deny against certain things. So as is our custom, Tony, I kick it to you. What do you got for us? 

[00:03:24] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna cheat a little bit. I'm gonna have a, a, a brief denial and then also an affirmation.

We're gonna old school. The denial is, uh, some people noticed, uh, maybe a couple months back, that occasionally in your podcast feed there would be something that would be like, you might also like, and it would be a random episode of some other podcast. 

[00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:03:43] Tony Arsenal: This was an advertising feature that was available to us.

I turned it on to see how it would work. It's generating like a dollar a month. So not, not a big deal, but also pretty passive. People could just skip the episode. Right. Uh, the reason I'm, I'm denying this now, is today I realized, and, and your mother was gracious enough to call me and ask me if I knew this.

I, I had heard it already, but, uh, the, the episode they decided to put in our feed today was somebody interviewing a psychic. So I immediately just to get out in front of it because I'm sure somebody out there is gonna be like, Tony's got psychics on his pod. No, I, I immediately emailed our podcast host 'cause I couldn't figure out how to turn it off and said, shut this off.

Excellent. So there's, there's no way for us to, to like specify we can, we can, um, eliminate certain categories. So I tried to eliminate categories that I thought would have blanket, like blatantly objectionable. Uh, content, you know, other religions, new age spirituality. The show that it was on, I think is like a productivity podcast, but it's one of those productivity podcasts where they kind of interview everyone and, and anyone, and they happen to be interviewing a psychic.

So if that came to your ear holes because of our feed, please accept my sincere apology. Uh, we certainly don't want to be endorsing or, or, uh, or exposing people to that kind of nonsense. So we've turned it off. It was a small amount of revenue, but even if it was a large amount of revenue, we would, I wouldn't tolerate that no matter how much money we were generating.

So if it hasn't left your feed yet, it will soon. It takes a little while for it to kind of update. It won't update until I've published a new episode. So by the time you're hearing this, probably it's disappeared. Um. But thank you for everyone who brought it to our attention. And again, I'm, I'm sorry that it happened enough of that.

[00:05:25] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming. It's a very exciting affirmation. I'm super stoked about it. Jesse and I actually talked a little bit about this before, so a couple, I don't know, it was maybe five, six months ago, Jesse affirmed a book called The Will of the Many, uh, which is a, a book by a guy, uh, named James Islington, I-S-L-I-N-G-T-O-N.

Um, it, it sort of presents itself when you first start reading it as like, almost like Harry Potter in Rome. Like it's like, that sounds about right, right? It's, it's kind of like a guy, like a, he's not like a child like Harry Potter or Percy Jackson. He's, he's, uh, probably like a late, I think late teens probably is, is where you're supposed to see him 15, 16 years old.

Somewhere in there, he gets kind of swept up into. Uh, like an academy, he gets adopted into a, like a prestigious family and he gets swept up into an academy and he's learning about these skills and this sort of like magic system that exists in his world. And there's a mysterious cataclysm that happened and it presents itself very much as like a very typical kind of, um.

Prodigy swept up into a world he doesn't fully understand Harry Potter kind of story. And then literally you read the last chapter, the story resolves, and there's an epilogue. And you realize that the story is entirely different than it, it anything you could have possibly conceived. It was, um, I haven't quite gone back and read the first book a second time, although I probably will.

Um, you tell me, Jesse, there was no, there was, I'm not gonna spoil it because it's part of the fun of getting just knocked on your butt on this. But there was nothing in the book that I could think of that even closely hinted at. 

[00:07:05] Jesse Schwamb: No. 

[00:07:05] Tony Arsenal: This weird twist at the end. 

[00:07:06] Jesse Schwamb: No way. 

[00:07:07] Tony Arsenal: Um, so the reason I'm going into all that detail is the, the final or the second book in the series.

I don't know how many are planned. I would assume it's probably three. But the second book in the series, which is called The Strength of the Few, just came out, uh, it came out just a few days ago. It's November 15th when we're, we're, uh, recording this, and it came out on November 11th. Um. If you have not read, uh, will of the many, please just go like, turn off the podcast right now.

Go listen or go read that book or get the audio book. Do it. It's super good. Um, you know, there's, um, it, I won't say that. Like there's nothing objectionable in the book. Um, you know, they have their own version of profanity and stuff that, that isn't the same profanity as ours, but like, it's the same intention as, as what we would say.

Um, but you're not gonna run into, there was no sexual content whatsoever. Even hint to that. Um, I think there was like one kiss in the entire book. Um, there really is, uh, from what I can tell, there really is no genuine romantic through line. Um, there was kind of a, sort of like a childhood infatuation or like a young teen infatuation at this academy, but it was such a small, small plot point and it doesn't sound like it's gonna be coming back around much as a big plot point.

Um. But there was nothing objectionable. Um, the violence is not particularly descriptive. Um, it's a little bit descriptive, but, um, it's pretty tame. It's just really good writing, um, really good writing, super creative, world building. Um, it's one of those things where, um, actually. A lot of books like Harry Potter for example, the character knows almost nothing about this new world that they're coming into.

And so you learn everything along with the, along with this person. This is more like the Farer trilogy or the Farer series where the, the main character actually knows quite a bit about what's going on, but the exposition of it is not like, um, it's not big exposition dumps. It's very organic. And actually there's, he leaves you with a ton of question marks about how this mysterious will system works.

Right? Um, you learn more about it as you go into the second book. So I'm recommending the whole series specifically 'cause the second book came out. I don't know when the third book is gonna come out. I would imagine it'll be a while. Um, there. Relatively long books. It'll take you a little bit of time to get through 'em.

But they're super good, they're super reasonable. Um, and they're, again, there, there's really not anything objectionable, which is hard to find even in like fantasy writing these days. Um, usually you run into some sort of the far series and trilogy as an example, I wrote, got through the first trilogy. I thought it was really good.

I started the second, uh, trilogy and I made it like two chapters in and I, there was all sorts of just unnecessary sexual content, so I just stopped reading it. I haven't found anything in these books that's even close to that. So first book is Will of the many. Second book is Strength of the Few, uh, and it is, uh, called the h or the Hierarchy Trilogy is LinkedIn has some other books that I haven't read.

I would assume they're very good, but I haven't read them yet. But yeah, check it out. It's so good. I can't recommend it enough. At least so far I haven't finished the second book, but it's, they're, they're just really good fun writing. It's not quite young adult fantasy fiction, so Right. It takes a little bit of work, um, to get through it.

Although it's not difficult reading. It just is not, um, you know, this isn't the per Percy Jackson series where you're gonna read four or five chapters in a sitting. Like, you're probably gonna read one chapter or two chapters a day and, and sort of, that's gonna be the pace you're probably go at unless you have like the week off work or something.

[00:10:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's incredibly clever in its storytelling. Even the title doesn't give anything away. You'll get a sense of what it means almost immediately, and yet you will not comprehend the fullness of what it means until really the whole thing is over. It keeps you guessing. The characters are fun, they're deep, they're interesting.

The dialogue is clever, but mostly I was impressed with like the world building. It does follow that kinda familiar, magical school type trope, but not in a way that's too tired. So. If you want more evidence that it is actually good on Good Reads, it has 28,000 reviews and a score of 4.6. Yeah. Now, if you're keeping track at home, I know some of you loved ones are, you should know that the highest rated book on Good Reads is over 10,000 ratings is Words of Ratings by Brandon Sanderson.

And that comes in at 4.76. So this thing is not far behind that. It's almost universally adored for its creativity. Yeah. It's just entertaining value and how unique it is. So I'm with you. I didn't expect to get as into it as I did. This is one of those that caught me by surprise. And so I was like, oh, I am, I'm definitely down for this.

So I'm behind you. I gotta get my hands on the next copy I can, I can get and get reading. 

[00:11:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. It, it's um, it's a lot of classic fantasy fiction style. Sort of science, fantasy fiction style, um, tropes, but they're, they're remixed and sort of like synthesized together in a way that's very organic and genuine 

[00:12:00] Jesse Schwamb: for sure.

[00:12:00] Tony Arsenal: There's a little bit of hunger games, there's a lot of, a lot of Harry Potter, you know, magical Academy. Um, there's a lot of just sort of good fantasy fiction, almost like Dragon Lance, kind of like world building. Um, what I, what I really love about a good fantasy fiction book is when you can tell the world is bigger than what's going on right in front of you.

Right. But you, but they, he doesn't need to tell you about all of it. 

Right? Right. 

Like, you can tell there's stuff going on and you hear about it, you read about it in the book, but it's, there's things going on in the rest of the world, um, that may or may not come into play later. But yeah, it's, it keeps you guessing.

Um, and, and again, the only thing that I maybe would've changed slightly about the first book is I would've loved. I when there's a really good twist at the end of the book, one of my favorite things is to go back and, and think about like, what did I miss that brought me here? And I'm not sure there's anything in the original part of the book, um, in the, the main body of the book that actually points you towards the twist.

Right? It's like genuinely a totally new. And I think that's on purpose. Um, I, again, I'm, I'm trying really hard not to give away spoilers 'cause I think that 

it's 

[00:13:10] Tony Arsenal: so tough. I think that our audience actually is really, is, is the kind of audience that would really like this. Okay. Uh, even to the point that like the, the first book is really grounded in sort of this like mythical Roman Romanesque latinized culture.

Um, it's not supposed to be like ancient Rome. It's not, I don't think it is. I mean, I guess we could find out later on that this is supposed to be some future. You know, cataclysm has reduced the culture back, you know, thousands of years. It could find that out. I don't think we're going to, but, um. The culture is based on, on like ancient roaming culture.

So there's actually a lot of like stoicism principles built into it that I've found that I think are really useful. Um, I've already highlighted you. I can tell when I'm reading a good fiction book if I really like it when I'm highlighting phrases in it, right? Because the writing is not good, and they're sort of a philosophical undercurrent that I, I'm really digging.

So check it out again. James Islington is the author, uh, will of the Many is the first book. Strength of the Few is the, the second book. I don't know what the third book's gonna be called. I'm sure he knows what it's gonna be called. The Lord knows what it's gonna be called, but I'm sure that will be recommending that book when it comes out as well.

[00:14:17] Jesse Schwamb: For sure, man, this whole sound, this whole intro sounded like we should just do an offshoot, which is like the reform book cast. That was, that was such a strong advertisement for that book, including like, you're going back to the titling again. I just wanna, I just wanna affirm you in that, that was very commendable.

That was like a solid podcasting right there. 

[00:14:33] Tony Arsenal: We should actually do, I don't know how we would do that with a fiction book this long. We should do some book, book club casts on I agree. This series once it's all out, because there's a lot to chew on in this. Yes. In this story. Okay. There's a lot of moral questions.

There's a, I, I don't know if there's anything in the book that would be explicitly theological, like they're not drawing from those kinds of principles. Um, you know, I guess there's. Mention of Gods. So I think there probably are theological undercurrents, but that's not really part of it. It's, it's kind of like the ancient Roman culture where like nobody really believes that the gods existed.

Yeah. 

[00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: It's nominal. 

[00:15:09] Tony Arsenal: Um, yeah. But there's lots of philosophical undercurrents and things to chew on in these books that would be fun for us to, to talk through and work through a little bit. 

[00:15:17] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I we gotta put it on the calendar. 

[00:15:20] Tony Arsenal: Let's make it 

[00:15:20] Jesse Schwamb: happen. And 

[00:15:21] Tony Arsenal: you know what else you could do? If you happen to be reading this book and you'd like to talk about it now and you don't wanna wait.

Oh, that's 

[00:15:26] Jesse Schwamb: so good. 

[00:15:26] Tony Arsenal: You don't wanna wait until, you know, 2029 when we get around to the next series. Um, you can join the Telegram chat, you can go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, uh, and that will bring you to our little corner of the internet that we've carved out. Uh, it's an open channel so you can jump in and read what's going on.

Uh, it really is, I think, one of the friendliest, most charitable kind places you're gonna find on that sort of the Christian internet. It's really sad that we have to talk about the charitable part of Christian internet versus like the rest of the Christian Internet. Uh, but that's the way it is. It's funny.

Uh, I got a Facebook message. I I have Facebook Messenger on my phone 'cause there's a few people that I keep in touch with on Facebook. Messenger that I don't have any other contact with. And I got a message on our Reform Brotherhood Facebook Messenger channel, which we haven't used in ages. Whoa. Someone who stumbled upon the podcast and started listening from the first episode, I think they were on like episode 1 68 when they messaged me.

Wow. And I said, well, you're not gonna hear about this for quite a while, but you should join the Telegram chat. So I think, I think he jumped in there. Um, that's great. So yeah, jump in there, chat about this, chat about so else and everybody. Um, I mean, there's, there's been discussions about other fiction books, um, that have come up the same bright, the, um, Sanderson series has come up.

Yes. Um, people like talk about the, the stuff they're reading. So that would be really fun if you wanted to jump in and, and chat through this. No spoilers though. This is the kind of book where like you really. Being blindsided by the, the twist at the end was part of that was really like delightful. So I don't wanna spoil it for anybody.

[00:16:55] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. Yeah. You, you definitely wanna experience it in this way. Trust me. 

[00:16:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, 

[00:16:59] Jesse Schwamb: it is, it is good. We can't say anything more about it because either we'll give it away if we just keep talking. Or we're just gonna continue to gush over how genius the whole thing has put together. It's worth your time.

It's true. 

[00:17:09] Tony Arsenal: Jesse, save us. What are you affirming or denying today? 

[00:17:11] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, a book. And this sounds like I'm about to pull like a Jesus juke, but that's not my intention at all Here. I'm affirming with a Bible translation just because I've, I've gone back to this one for a while as we've been looking at the parables, and I find it delightful.

So I'm coming with a strong, strong affirmation for the scriptures. And if you're looking for maybe another translation to add into the mix, into the piety, I would suggest going with the Legacy standard Bible. And if you're not familiar with that, with what that is, so imagine if two twin translations, the New American Standard Bible and the Legacy standard Bible, the LSB, so the older twin, like the NASB, he's like the kind of guy who irons his socks.

You know, he is, he's very literal. He's proper speaks like someone who proofreads street signs for fun. He's been doing this for a long time, and because of that, he's really beloved, because he carefully sticks to an exacting word definition and translation of the original text. But sometimes if you've, if you've hung out with NISB for a little while, sometimes he's so formal that you can feel like he's reading a grocery list in like Old Testament Hebrew cadence.

So enter then relatively new, but the younger twin LSB shows up and he's basically like, listen, I, I love my older brother. I wanna do everything he does, but I'm going to double down on making even more exact, which I know sounds crazy given what I just said about the Hebrew cadence. But hear me out. So if the N-N-A-S-B says something, you know, if the NF when the NSB translates like Lord.

For Yahweh, it's like the capitalized LORD and the Ls, LSB, which I appreciate is like, nah, we're just gonna use Yahweh, you know? And the NSB says, listen, we'll use slave only when it's needed. And the Ls, LSB is like, if the Greek says Doos. I'm saying slave and you can't stop me. You know? And the NASB sometimes it does, I think avoid startling you and the LSB is like, listen, if the original text startles you Good.

So I've just been enjoying as we go through the parables, and we'll get to this a little bit tonight, some of that like particular language, some of that, like the vibe that's happening here. I mean, the LSB is is basically like the NASB turned up to 11. It's stricter, it's nerdier, it's even a little bit more literal and it's proudly flexing every time.

It preserves its original language nuance and there is, I think a place for that. The strange thing about it though, I'd say with all that. Being enumerated is that I do think sometimes it reads a little easier than the NAB. All these translations have their of their place, but I would say it's definitely worth adding into the mix.

You're gonna get some lovely and different perspective by going through and taking a look at, at what the l SB has to say. And we're gonna get a little bit of that tonight so you can, I forget who publishes it. Do you remember off the top of your head? 

[00:20:02] Tony Arsenal: I think it's the same. Well, MacArthur's group was really instrumental behind it.

I don't remember. Yes. I don't remember the name of it. The name of the organization. That's 

[00:20:10] Jesse Schwamb: steadfast. Is it? Well, it doesn't matter. It 

[00:20:11] Tony Arsenal: might be, yeah, it might 

[00:20:12] Jesse Schwamb: be. I think it might be steadfast. Yes, that is true. If, if, I don't think it should be put up by this by any means. MacArthur actually is a study bible in.

In the l SB translation, he was a particular fan of it. And, uh, so pick that up. If, if you want it, that's your prerogative. Of course. Well, I think any version of it is pretty good. The psalms are particularly good in it, but I do love that you're gonna get all the, the normal, like peace wise stuff with the NASB, where like all the quotations from the different parts of scripture will be in small caps.

There's a lot of like little fun things that draw, like italicized words will alert you to the fact that that word is not actually in the Greek of the Hebrew, but is merely there for the English equivalent. And then you're gonna get yes, the proper name for God in every place, and you're gonna get a lot more detail.

So again, I like to think of these things as like the, the, it's like the LSB is like the NASB, but with a personal trainer or grammar coach and unlimited black coffee. So it's just different and yeah, by kind of doubling down on trying to get like a firm little grasp of what the original texts say. 

[00:21:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Yeah. Little, uh, little Bible translation, lesson tutorial, I guess. Um. I never knew this even through like seminary, I never really caught onto this, but, um, when you see different. The way that English translations are named often tell you a lot about the history of the translation, 

[00:21:33] Jesse Schwamb: right? 

[00:21:33] Tony Arsenal: So we have things like the English standard version, the new international version, or the, the NIV or the uh, legacy Standard Bible.

When you see something like Standard Bible, if you, if you look, there's a number of translations that end in standard Bible. There's the New American Standard Bible, there's the Christian Standard Bible, right? There's the Holman Broadman, Christian Standard Bible. There's now the Legacy Standard Bible. All of those, all of those translations that end in standard Bible, they all are sort of like within the same, I dunno, genetic heritage of they all trace back to, I don't, I don't know what it is for the, for the standard Bible series, but they all trace back to a singular English text, right?

And so when you come out with a new translation, it's very rare that a brand new translation of the Bible is entirely from the Greek. So. The English standard version was a, was a updated version or a, a slightly different translation philosophy from the new revised or the NRSV, the new revised standard version, which was a slightly updated version of the revised standard version, which was an updated version of the authorized standard version, which was the King James version.

Right. So that's right. So when you look at the English standard version, it comes in a lineage that actually goes back to the King James version, the NASB, I don't know exactly where it goes back to, um, but it goes back to a different translation philosophy and a different sort of base English text.

That's where you find a lot of the interesting things like textual features, like certain italicized words tell you something. The LSB really is kind of the English standard version of that, of that, uh, line of Bibles Enus. Yeah. So it's, it's kind of the most modern version of the standard Bible series.

Um. If you look at the CSB and the LSB, there's very, very little differences. They're very similar. And it, it's funny too, because the CSB was originally developed by the Southern Baptist Convention because they wanted to use an updated version, but they didn't want to pay royalties on the English standard version.

So they developed, and that's fine. Like that's, that's a little quirk of history. It's not a, there's no judgment or commentary whatsoever in there. Um, but they, they selected a Bible translation and then they updated it in order to, um, have their own version of the Bible that, um, was there. So all of that to say that LSB is a great translation.

Um, it's funny you are super jazzed up about translating as Yahweh. That's my version of my body was broken for you. Like that's my version of it. I translating the, the divine name as Yahweh in English, uh, that triggers me a little bit. We can talk about that sometime, but, um. Yeah, so I'm not a huge fan of that, that feature, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's a great translation.

I've done the LSB, um, in the past for my year through the Bible reading. Great. So I've read the entire thing. It's great and it's, it's a great translation. Um, like I said, it really feels like the l like the English standard version, um, you're reading a different base text, but the translation philosophy is very similar.

Um, it's not quite formal equivalence, which is what the ESV is. It's much closer to a literal translation. Um, so I wouldn't try to put them on a spectrum, but, um, they're very similar. If you're comfortable reading the ESV and you're just looking for something a little bit different, um, then the LSB is gonna feel very, very familiar and very much at home.

It's gonna be a very similar, um, cadence and reading and, and even structure of the text is very similar. 

[00:25:04] Jesse Schwamb: And it just so turns out that we can put a little bit of that difference in the practice right now because if we go and find ourselves in Matthew chapter 13, beginning of verse 47, we've got yet again.

Another incredible teaching from Jesus about what the Kingdom of Heaven is like. And Tony, as you've been saying before, as we've been discussing this, I want to give everybody that great perspective off the top right from the jump of this. As you hear this, listen for the nouns and the verbs, the kingdom of Heaven is like, don't just go to the first thing that happens there, but the whole encapsulation of what we're gonna be told.

And the reason why I brought up the lsb is because I think it gives us a little bit of a true different perspective. And to just start out some of that comparison, if you were to go to your, just your standard. ESV version. Now again, the headings, the scripture break, the, all of that stuff is we know something that is not divinely inspired.

It is interesting though, how different translators and commentators have tried to sort out or provide some of that encapsulation of the topic at hand by inserting these little titles or subtitles in the ESV. This section is called the parable of the net. Now, interestingly, and I think this is gonna be something fun for us to talk about, just generally, is that in the LSB it just says a dragnet.

So what's interesting here is we're getting something more specific than just net. So let me, let me read, I'll read you to everybody from not read you. We'll save that for the horrible rec psychic recommendations that we do not condone. Let me, let me read to everyone from Matthew chapter 13, a dragnet or the parable of the nets.

This is Jesus speaking, and again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea and gathering fish of every kind. And when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach and they sat down and gathered the good fish in the containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age, the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous and will throw them into the fiery furnace.

In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

[00:27:08] Tony Arsenal: It's, uh, it's a pretty stark parable and it should feel super familiar, right? Because this is not, um, this is not the first time in this chapter that we've heard basically the same parable, 

right? 

Um, this is is almost identical in terms of the meaning and the structure and even the like order of things, um, to the parable of the wheat and the tears.

So again, we see Jesus, um, and. Jesus is teaching this, but we see Matthew also arranging this in specific ways that highlights sort of this inner weaving interlocking function in chapter 13, where parables that are similar are sometimes right next to each other. We saw that last week. There's the parable of the pearl, the parable of the treasure in the field, um, that are immediately next to each other and mean basically the same thing.

Now we have the parable of the wheat and the TAs and the parable of the dragnets that are separated by quite a bit, but they mean basically the same thing. So it's interesting to see this different arrangement in how it works, but this is a, this is another example of kind of an eschatological parable, right?

That teaches us not just about, um, the kingdom of Heaven as it was sort of like present in Christ Day. There are some parables that are focusing more on like what the Kingdom of Heaven is like for us right now. And then there are some parables that are sort of focused on what the Kingdom of Heaven is like in its kind of eschatological fulfillment.

This is one of those s. 

[00:28:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's good. That's actually something I wanted to hit on right away because I thought let's define it at the end and then kind of go back into all the other lovely details. This is heavy, heavy judgment. Yeah, and you're right, of course, it plays right along the. Side the parable of the TAs and the wheat.

What's interesting though, in terms of its distinction is whereas I think the parable of the wheat and the TAs focuses like we talked about on that intervening time between Jesus' inauguration of the kingdom and the end of the age during which both he and the devil are at work in the world leading up to that final judgment, the focus on this parable is just on the future judgment itself.

It's being very, very clear about that judge. It's all judgment. It's all like, here is the end of the age. And so whereas like the parable again of like the wheat and the tears includes the destruction of the wicked, but lays like less stress, I would say upon like the end way in which the righteous will shine forth as the son of the kingdom of their father.

It's emphasizing this promise of a glorious future for our believers and the parable, this dragnet or the parable of the net or the. Nothing but net places like this emphasis upon like the destruction of the wicked. So again, for anybody who would say that Jesus is not teaching this directly and it's really not sugarcoated because he gives the explanation in the parable itself, which is almost a little bit unusual as well.

It's oftentimes he gives one and then the other often separated in like geography or time or space or location. Yeah. But here they, it's just, it's as if Jesus is saying, just in case this wasn't abundantly clear, I am talking about the eschatological fulfillment of my kingdom. And that in that eschatological fulfillment, the wicked will be punished.

[00:30:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that this parable, um, highlights for me, and this is, this is one of those like working it out in real time. So, so bear with me a little bit. I think sometimes we think of, um. Ooh, I gotta be careful how I say this. I think sometimes because of the way we, um, make appropriately make a firm distinction between law and gospel, and we are very careful to keep the law out of the gospel and the gospel out of the law, we lose sight of the fact that the two are interrelated with each other for sure.

Right. So the law is not, the gospel of the gospel is not the law, but the gospel is also not the gospel without the law, if that makes sense. Um, you have to have the law and understand the law in order to really truly understand the gospel. That's why we, we always wanna preach both the law and the gospel.

This parable is, is, uh, a little bit paradigm shifting because when we think of the kingdom of heaven and the, the, to be fair, the parable of the wheat and the tear should have done this for us too. And, and I'm not sure exactly why it didn't, and maybe that's part of why this parable iss here is to sort of help to make sure we're oriented properly.

[00:31:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. 

[00:31:21] Tony Arsenal: The Kingdom of Heaven in this parable includes the judgment of the wicked. And I think that's something we don't often, we don't often connect and think about. We think in the kingdom of Heaven as God and his elect. When we think of the kingdom of heaven eschatological, we, uh, we think about, um, the, the righteous enjoying fellowship with God forever on the new Earth.

And, you know, heaven comes down to earth and the two be sort of become one in the, the, you know, wedding feast of the Lamb. Um, I didn't mean to make that connection, but I guess it's there in scripture too. Yeah. 

[00:31:54] Jesse Schwamb: Um, 

[00:31:55] Tony Arsenal: the, the fact of the matter is, um, at least as far as I'm reading this parable. Hell is not outside the kingdom of heaven in, in the view of this parable.

Right? That's right. We wanna be careful to distinguish the two. It's not like hell is some cordon off part of God's kingdom or something like that. But the kingdom of heaven, and, and maybe we should think of this more as like the kingship of God. The domain and reign of Christ involves his reign over the punishment of the wicked.

Right? 

[00:32:25] Tony Arsenal: So in this case, the kingdom of heaven is not the good fish that are put into good containers, but it is also the bad fish that are thrown away at the end, the throwing away of the bad fish, which is equated to the throwing of the wicked into the fiery furnace, into the place where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth that falls under the authority and the rain and the kingship of Jesus Christ in his kingdom in the last days.

[00:32:50] Jesse Schwamb: Amen. 

[00:32:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, we cannot lose sight of that. And I, I think we often do. Um, that's, that's maybe why I'm harping on it so much is I think it's very easy for us to think of God's kingdom as just. Just the righteousness, just the reward. 

[00:33:03] Tony Arsenal: But, um, there's a very real element in this parable that it's, it's also pointing to God's sovereignty and his, I think sometimes too, like there's this, um, I understand why people say it this way, and I, I think there's a certain way we can talk about it that it's not inaccurate.

But when people, about people talk about hell being the absence of God, 

[00:33:23] Jesse Schwamb: I I knew you were gonna 

[00:33:24] Tony Arsenal: say that. 

[00:33:24] Jesse Schwamb: Um, 

[00:33:25] Tony Arsenal: it, it's not right. Right. Hell is the absence of, is the presence of God absent grace, right? 

[00:33:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. 

[00:33:31] Tony Arsenal: Unmediated, um, right. It's, it's God's unmediated, absolute entire wrath poured out on wicked sinners.

That's what hell is. That's 

[00:33:39] Jesse Schwamb: right. 

[00:33:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, so we, we can't lose sight of that because if we do, we're missing an aspect of what God is doing and who he is. Right. He prepared vessels for wrath. That's part of God's will. And it feels a little uncomfortable to talk about that sometimes. Um, but the Bible talks about it.

We shouldn't shy away from it. And this, this parable right here is, is all over it. 

[00:33:57] Jesse Schwamb: Okay, you're stealing like everything I wanted to say, but I'm glad you said that because now I can say something else. So I, this is where you led me right back into the net versus dragnet thing because I think actually all of those details are really meant to lead us exactly to that final conclusion.

Not just that like hell itself is under the purview of God, but there's like an active rule in reign even there. 

[00:34:19] Tony Arsenal: Yes. 

[00:34:19] Jesse Schwamb: Over all that's happening. So you're, yes, absolutely. You're of course a hundred percent correct. That is the kingdom. It's, it's not just blessing and benefits and rainbows, it's also the fulfillment of all of the other contrary promises that outside of God's mediated favor and love toward us in Christ that still occur again, his wrath is still his to, to met out and it's his to basically have again, like purview over.

So here's why I think, and this is where the Lsb kind of clued me in that the dragnet might be actually. Important in our understanding of this and why he uses that in particular? This is my theory at least, and I don't think I'm alone in this of course. So I've come to learn that when I thought, when I think about like nets, I have like a really western modern view of nets.

I'm not sure until I start to really think about actually meditate on this parable, what I thought the net was and what they were doing with it. But I think it was like, I was thinking they were just like casting it, like you just like kind of throwing it out of the boats and it would sit in the water and and kind of sink down and then they would just kind of arbitrarily haul it up.

And in that hall they would gather whoever happened to be like within the confines of the net. And I think that's very inaccurate perspective. So evidently dragnet in particular as like the name commonly implies here. Certainly this was, I guess, a technique that was very common on the Sea of Galilee and apparently like the details that the actual like taxonomy of the net itself was such that you're talking about a net, usually spend it between two boats, where at the top of it there might be something that help to float up like a cork and there'd be weights at the bottom and it would be stretched or laid out.

Usually, again, between two boats and then pulled to shore by ropes so that everything in its path would be caught as it's pulled. And so this is brilliant because I think Jesus is no doubt using this as a metaphor for this kind of judgment because it captures clearly the idea of gathering every kind of fish.

Other words, you cannot escape the net. The kingdom of God is the net and the sorting comes later. But that being brought up, like you're saying, Tony brought up into that kingdom, whether for like eternal blessing and, and you know, commendation or eternal punishment and suffering. Either way, you can't escape the net.

This is profound because I think so much of our culture thinks they're gonna escape the net or the nets. They're gonna be able to get outside of the net. So he goes on then of course, to be able to describe like these good and bad kinds of fish. But I think it's worth stopping. Just connecting what you just said.

This idea that all of this, all of this is the judgment of God and all of it is the kingdom of God and the net by coming forward and catching everything that is within its confines, like nothing gets out, is exactly the brilliant kind of metaphor that emphasizes the point you were just making. 

[00:37:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. 

[00:37:06] Tony Arsenal: And you know, um, when we talked about the parable of the wheat and the tears, we sort of circled around a little bit and.

I don't know that I have a great answer for it, but I think maybe I have a little bit more clarity on it. We circled around the fact that when people employ and use the parable of the wheat and the tars, they often sort of say like, well, the field is the church. And so there's people in the church that are saved.

There's, or elect, there are people in the church that are not, and we can't really know the difference. And that's true, but in the parable, when Christ explains it, he says, the field is the world. 

[00:37:39] Jesse Schwamb: Right. 

[00:37:39] Tony Arsenal: And I think this, this parable actually helps us to understand the reason why he says that, right? When he's talking about the parable of the wheat and the terras, it ends in the same place, even though the focus is different, right?

It's focused on sort of the here and the now. And we, we landed very hard on like, part of what we're being taught in that parable is like, know, your, know your role. It's not judgment. Like you're not the one that is supposed to be pulling up the wheat out, you know, trying to find the tears and rooting 'em out and stuff.

But the fact that the field is the world and that the good and the bad grow up together within it is parallel here to the fact that the net is all encompassing, right? So the kingdom of heaven is like a field where there was wheat and tears sewn together, and the field is the world. The kingdom of heaven is like a net that gathers every kind of fish.

It gathers all of them together. All of the fish are in the net together. It's all encompassing. Every single thing is covered. It's really the same parable with a different emphasis and a different picture. But it's, it is this all encompassing picture where it's not a matter of like, God is just scooping.

Right? Again, like I, I keep on coming back to this and I, I had never run into this in these parables before. This is part of why I love this series is because we're really digesting them. Um. 

[00:38:57] Tony Arsenal: The dispensational understanding of the rapture is that God takes all the good people or all of the, all of the believers out of the world.

But in, in these two parables, like in this one, everybody's raptured. Everybody's, everybody's scooped up, right? And they're sorted out after that. In the field, the wheat and the tears, it's the, the tears that are taken first, they're the ones that are pulled up first. Um, this idea that, um, that there's this great sorting that happens before the end.

It doesn't seem to comport with scripture. None of, none of what Christ teaches that I see about the final judgment of things has the believers separated out except at the final judgment. Right? Right. We're gonna, I don't, I don't know if it's classified as a parable, so we may not talk about it, but, but the, the sheep and the goats, right?

The sheep and the goats are together until they're separated and it's not as though they're separated then, then later on, there's another separation, though. The separation is the final judgment in this case, the sorting of, of the fish into the good containers and the throwing away of the bad. That's all one act, right?

It's not like you sort all of the good into one container and then you throw away all the bad. If you think about how this process works, I used to watch, um, like deadliest catch. Did you ever watch that with the 

[00:40:12] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:40:12] Tony Arsenal: The crab fishermen? 

[00:40:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, 

[00:40:13] Tony Arsenal: for sure. Right. This is what's going on, right? They, they pull up the crabs, they dump 'em all out on the deck.

They start sorting through them and the ones that are too small or are deformed or aren't crabs, right, they pull up all sorts of other stuff. It's not like they're waiting to throw those back into the ocean until they're all done. They look at one, they put it in a good box, they look at the next one.

It's bad. They throw it back in the ocean. This is the final judgment. This is the final culmination of things, and this parable is showing us that like all of that happens kind of in one movement. The the net drags everything up when they get it ashore. Right. They sit down and they sort it, and the the good is kept and the bad is thrown into, you know, bad.

In this case, in the parable, probably like back into the ocean or just to the side or wherever it might be. In, in the reality and the explanation here, the evil ones are thrown into the fiery furnace. While the good are, presumably it doesn't really talk about the good. That's the other feature of this.

Like there's no statement of what's happening to the good, 

[00:41:12] Jesse Schwamb: right? 

[00:41:13] Tony Arsenal: What's happening to the righteous. It's just assumed that they're being brought into the kingdom of heaven. Um, but the angels will come out, they will separate the evil from righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. This is really, really a parable focusing on the judgment of the wicked.

Yes. Where I do think the parable of the wheat and the tears would, you know, in its eschatological elements really was more focused on the, the destiny of the righteous with sort of like the destiny of the wicked being a a, a corollary. This one is just really focusing on what judgment in the kingdom of God looks like.

[00:41:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right, and I think that would've floored the original hearers. Don't you think this, they're hearing this, there's two things at least I think that really would've like just been shocking to hear. I actually, one of them is this idea of the net because I don't think if I try to understand it in the more of the kind of grand historical and biblical context that Jesus was bearing the lead on this.

Yeah. 

[00:42:03] Jesse Schwamb: This idea of the net being a symbol of judgment of God is very well known and very prolific throughout the Old Testament, and I got a couple. Passages here I wanna throw out for us to consider that. The second thing is, there is something about this sorting of the fish, which sounds very much like, uh, essentially, you know, the, the laws of what is clean and unclean that God gives to his people in Deuteronomy.

But first, going back to your point, it is all judgment. There is judgment for all. So the Christian itself as well, 

[00:42:29] Tony Arsenal: right? 

[00:42:29] Jesse Schwamb: But of course, we're co covered in Christ with that imputed glorious alien righteousness. So all that judgment has been paid forward that you know, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought, my sin not in part with the whole is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more.

Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord on my soul. All of that is true. That is the claim of the Christian. But you're right here, the emphasis is certainly on this judgment and again, wrapped up in this idea of net. So I think just hearing that would've floored them. And here's why I say that. So this is from Ezekiel chapter 32, just verses one through three.

In the 12th year. In the 12th month, on the first day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me. Son of man, raise a lamentation. Over Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and say to him, you consider yourself a lion of the nations, but you are like a dragon in the seas. You burst forth in your rivers, trouble the waters with your feet and foul their rivers.

Thus says the Lord God. I will throw my net over you with a host of many peoples and they will haul you up in my dragnet. This is from Habakkuk chapter one, verses 14 through 17. You make mankind like the fish of the sea, like crawling things that have no ruler. He brings all of them up with a hook. He drags them out with his net.

He gathers them in his dragnet, so he rejoices and his glad. Therefore, he sacrifices to his net and makes offerings to his dragnet for by them. He lives in luxury and his food is rich. Is he then to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing nations forever? So there's all of this rich like contextual.

Context for I think what they're hearing. And then to have that pair immediately. I think what is shocking, like you're saying, is here's Jesus. He's been expounding and the kingdom, my heaven is like this. We just talked about the kingdom. My heaven is like these amazing treasures, like this pearl of great price and value, like these things of great blessing and worth and something to give up all that you have for to gain everything else which you could not have accomplished on your own.

And then he says, and another thing, the kingdom of heaven is like, it's like this judgment. It's like the judgment of the Old Testament. It's like the judgment of the net that God had typically reserved for the his own enemies. And now he's saying in the end, like you're saying, everybody will be pulled up and then comes the sorting.

[00:44:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and, and now you're stealing where I was gonna go 'cause I have a cook up on my, up on my screen. Yeah. I mean, I think that the hearers of this parable would have immediately thought of, I think Habakkuk would've been the place they thought of, right? The, the final, uh, the final judgment of the people of Israel prior to the, you know, prior to the exile.

Right. Um, or, or I suppose this is the exile itself, but you, you can sort of think of the. People of like it, the ancient, uh, nation of Israel. You can sort of think of them in a couple different phases, right? There's like the, there's like the United Kingdom under David and Solomon. There's the divided Kingdom, um, through most of its Old Testament history.

And then there's uh, there's the return to exiles that come after that. The last judgment of the people of, of Israel, right? And this is just Judah. 'cause Israel's already gone. The last judgment of the people of Judah. The two remaining tribes is, is described by Habakkuk as. A dragnet, right? It's, it's Babylon.

It's the Chaldeans, uh, sweeping up everything. Right? And that metaphor, in that metaphor in Habakkuk, um, it uses three different me fishing metaphors. 

[00:45:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:45:55] Tony Arsenal: Right. There's a fishing hook, which is very specific. That's right. You, you catch one fish with a hook, 

[00:46:00] Jesse Schwamb: right? 

[00:46:00] Tony Arsenal: Uh, there's a diff there's one kind of net, which is, uh, probably like this.

When, when you think of like fishing in North America, when you use a net, it's, you've already hooked them and you're using the net to kind of pull them outta the water. And then there is this dragnet and there's this all encompassing element of this dragnet in Habakkuk that represents the final total judgment of God's people in that phase of their existence.

Right? They come back from exile and there are very different people. Their religion is different, their culture and society is different. They have to rebuild the temple. They have a different temple. Um, even the way that the, the. Priesthood works is different. Um, not, not that it's entirely different, but it's definitely not exactly the same.

So there really is like a firm, um, seismic shift in the religion of the Old Testament that happens at the exile. Everything changes for them for many years. There is no temple. That's the judgment of that Habakkuk is describing. Right. That's the judgment that he was so aghast at that he was like, God, what are you doing like this?

Yes, exactly. The disease or the cure is worse than disease here. Right, right. Um, and then Christ is intentionally using that language. Um, that's not to say there aren't other, you know, you, you referenced a couple, there are other, um, judgment statements in the Old Testament that are Annette, but I, I think Habakkuk is the primary one, if not the only one that I can think of where it's applied to God's people.

[00:47:24] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:47:24] Tony Arsenal: Right. The net judgment in, in other places is often applied to God's enemies, but this is God's people and in this case, the judgment is. Obviously it's not on God's people. God's people face judgment, but come through it. The judgment here is not a judgment that, that people come through. So it's not, we're not referring to God's people in this judgment, in the parable.

Um, the, the but the net sweeps them up too. 

[00:47:49] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly 

[00:47:50] Tony Arsenal: right. It's a universal, um, all encompassing judgment. All people are swept up in it. Um, and in the Old Testament in, in Habakkuk, the remnant that Habakkuk points to, right? He's, he's, he is, uh, confident that there are those who are faithful to Jesus or faithful to God, faithful to Jesus.

He, he, you know, I think the, the prophets knew more than we give them credit for, 

[00:48:13] Jesse Schwamb: right? 

[00:48:13] Tony Arsenal: Um, the people who are faithful were still swept up in the judgment. They were still swept up in the, the nets of the chaldeans for the most part. Um, so I think there's a lot to it. There's a lot to this parable. Um, we are just scratching the surface.

I mean, and this is a short parable. This is why these, this parable series is first of all why it's gonna be like 19 years long. Um, but why it's so. Encouraging to me, and why I'm so excited about it is we really are, I really, I'll speak for myself. I hope that this is the listener's experience, and I hope this is your experience too, Jesse, but I am, I am coming to these texts and I don't think I'm finding anything new, but I'm seeing things that I haven't seen before.

I don't think they're new as in, like, no one in the history of the world has ever conducted Haku with this parable, but I, I've never thought of that before. I've read Habakkuk a bunch of times. I've read this parable a bunch of times. I never made that connection. I, um, I preached through Habakkuk, uh, a year and a half ago.

I did all four chapters over the course of a month. Uh, and I, in all my commentary, preparation, I never made this connection. Like it never came up in my mind that these two things were connected. But taking time to work through these parables of Christ and really think about and digest, his teaching has been so good for my soul.

[00:49:25] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. And of course it leads us, I think, into just these deeper waters of the brilliancy of our Lord and Savior's teaching that in just the course of a few short words, he's taken something that wasn't just like familiar, but had a full robust context. And I can imagine even with what they understood about Habakkuk, and again that passage ending with is, is he then going to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing the nations forever?

I mean, think about that plea, like just exemplifying the great power and providence and superintendent control that God has over everything, these nations and these peoples. And I can imagine the people saying, you know what? He's saying this to them saying like, who? Who are you talking to right now? It's us.

Like who you're talking to, you just said like the kingdom of God is, is for those who are willing to forsake all things and uncover this great and deep treasure and now you're coming in with all this judgment. And that's why I think it, it ending with this separation kind of coming back to where we started, which was at the very end, would've also been somewhat shocking or scandalous because it's very interesting to me that Jesus is essentially, I think drawing back to like Deuteronomy.

14 when it would've been common for these fishermen to go through. And just like in the, the beautiful practicality of this, like you commit to on this while you're working because it is directly connected to the work of the day, which was fishing. And people would more familiar with it than I am. And so when he says something like, you know, the good.

Fish are gonna be separated, put into containers in, in the bad, thrown out or thrown away, that I would imagine harken right back for them to Deuteronomy 14, where they're given the explicit command that, you know, you can eat of anything that's in the waters, you may eat all of those things that have fins and scales.

And certainly, I presume, without knowing exactly that in the sea of Galilee, there would be fish that they could not eat, that they would have to separate what was clean and unclean. And there seems to me be more than just a parallel here with that as well. So this, this judgment is about cleanliness.

It's, it's about those whom God has called and elected and saved. And those are, are the ones that he's going to be separating out. All will be caught up in that net. But this idea for the unclean and those that are clean, I think would also be just like reverberating in their minds while he's saying this.

Trying to figure out what does he mean by all of this. 

[00:51:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, um, we don't. I think Christians can sometimes disregard the categories in Leviticus. Um, what I mean by that is like we think of clean and unclean as like categories that have no relevance for us. 

[00:52:04] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:52:04] Tony Arsenal: And on a certain level that's that's true.

Like that was part of the ceremonial law. And, and the only reason they don't have relevance for us is because in, in Christ, we're all clean. But there's also an element that, that, that implies or it entails out of Christ. They're all unclean. 

[00:52:23] Jesse Schwamb: Right? 

[00:52:24] Tony Arsenal: Right, exactly. So someone who is unclean in the Old Testament did not have access to any of the ceremonial, cleansing or blessings of.

Uh, of the, the scriptures of God's, God's religion In the Old Testament, they didn't have access to the temple. They didn't have access to God's people. They were often, you know, castigated out of society itself. Um, I was listening to, I forget who it was, but I was listening to an excellent sermon on, um, the, uh, the, uh, woman who is suffering from bleeding.

I think it was Dr. Michael Yusef. And, um, he made the point that like, not only would she have been isolated from her religious community, her family would've had to isolate themselves from her in order to not become unclean themselves. 

Right. 

So when we talk about cleaning and unclean in the Old Testament, it is this picture of entire isolation, right?

Well, what, what does this parable end with? It's a place where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth, which we learn in other parts of the gospels when crisis. Talking about this is a place of outer darkness. 

[00:53:28] Jesse Schwamb: That's 

[00:53:28] Tony Arsenal: right. It's a place of isolation it, it's a fiery furnace, but it's also a place where there is nothing and no one else to keep you company or to share your misery with you are utterly alone to be undone by God's wrath for all eternity.

That's the picture we have here, right? That's the picture of uncles. That's why uncles is isolating in the Old Testament is 'cause this is this picture of judgment. So I think you're right when we're talking about the sorting of fish. We're talking about the, the sorting of the good fish and the bad fish.

We probably should read that as clean and unclean fish. 

[00:54:04] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly 

[00:54:04] Tony Arsenal: right. It's not just the good fish as in like, Ooh, this is delicious, and oh, that's kind of rotten. Like we're not talking about like, Ooh, I've got a yummy trout, and like, ooh, just like a really gross bottom feeder. That's not what we're talking about.

Right. Although I think bottom feeders probably would be unclean. 'cause they don't typically have fins per se. 

[00:54:20] Jesse Schwamb: Agree. 

[00:54:21] Tony Arsenal: Um, but like we're talking, we're not talking about like the quality of the fish. 

[00:54:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:54:26] Tony Arsenal: As in like, this is delicious or healthy. Yeah. And, and this is kind of gross. We're talking about clean and unclean.

We're talking about whether or not a, a Jew could eat this fish and not render themselves to be unclean and to be excluded from the religious community and to be excluded from God's worship, to be made outsiders, even if temporarily, that's what unclean is did to you. It made you outsiders from the people of God.

Um, sometimes, temporarily, sometimes. Sometimes permanently. And, and a person who willingly eats unclean food in the Old Testament is separated. I, I think, separated permanently in some instances. So I think this is a, this is a parable that has a lot more to it than you probably would understand, just casually reading.

And I say that just to, to commend to you like a really good commentary Will, will get you to a lot of these places for sure. It will help you get to where this is. So whether you're using something like Calvin, which is available free online, Matthew Henry, which is free online. Um, I've been reading in the Pillar New Testament commentary series for a lot of this, um, which is, is a fairly technical commentary series, but you can get it pretty affordably on, on something like logos.

Um, wherever you're going, if you're using a decent commentary, it's gonna help you to see some of these nuances in ways that you probably wouldn't at just a casual first glance. And 

[00:55:41] Jesse Schwamb: of course I would add to that you can just go online and take a look at a couple of different translations and just kind of marinate in that, mold them over, read them over and over again in different versions.

[00:55:51] Jesse Schwamb: That can often be helpful, I think, because what this is really giving us excuse to do is get our meditation exercise muscles. Like buffed, like, let's, let's get sw as the kids say on meditation, because this gives us an excuse to say as we're turning this over, like reading it throughout the week and then turning it over on our way to work, or as we're walking to our vehicle, or as we're heading into the grocery store.

I think that's a very thing that God rewards to build through the power of the Holy Spirit, greater, deeper intimacy with what Jesus is saying here. And then why wouldn't the Holy Spirit want to empower Jesus' words for us even now, and to give us greater insight and greater closeness to him as we grew through these things?

So I think in that way, it's a really great excuse to just use this as an opportunity to practice meditation, some deliberate meditation to sit down and to actually think, what, what is meant here by the net? What, what would a, how would they use the net? If I imagine even fishermen using a net, what can I draw from that?

Because of course, clearly Jesus was using these very practical, ordinary, normal means. To communicate grand spiritual truths and they connect in consummate harmony. So it's all there for us to really grasp hold of like, this truth is not too far away, that we cannot grasp it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think we ought to continue to pray in that way. And this is just like a lovely excuse to really kinda lean into that more directly then some other passages of the Bible. This just lends toward that because this is the teaching of our Lord and Savior for us. He is for us, and in this teaching I see him being very much for us.

Yeah. In that he's communicating something to us that we ought to understand if we have ears. To hear that. That is the whole point, isn't it? And I take what you said, and I think that should be a great encouragement to us, that this idea that when Jesus draws near nothing remains the same. And that alien imputed righteousness is that new creation.

That regeneration is a cleanliness. And again, I can just imagine the people listening to this being very familiar with what it meant to follow the dietary restrictions very. Well, pun intended religiously and fastidiously and meticulously. And then for Jesus to use that and draw that data in this diff different way.

And I think what we've learned in this whole conversation is Jesus taught us that the kingdom of God. Is both God's sovereign future separation of the righteous and the wicked. He reigns in rules everywhere, in all places, in all realms and all spiritual realities. And I think the overall reformed reading sees this passage of reinforcing some of the doctrines you and I talk about all the time.

It's election, it's final judgment, it's perseverance. It's reminding believers to trust God's timing and to remain faithful until the end. And just like we are prone to say here, we find that Jesus is right in the center of this parable. Of course, because he, he's the one pulling up the net. He is God himself, and he's doing all the verbs.

He's pulling, he's bringing out of the water. He's sorting, he's sending. Yeah. And so we bow before him. We subject even our reasoning and our cognizance to him knowing that his ways are best, his will is the best, and that he's worthy of all praise and glory. 

[00:58:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: That's a good place for us to add. Um, we would love it if you would continue on this with us.

If you would, um, pick up your Bible and read and, and marinate over this. Grab a good commentary. Um, have good conversations about this. Again, the Telegram channel is a great place to have these conversations. Um, but, you know, God's word is so rich and I don't wanna ever create a canon within a canon.

Right, right. I saw an interesting video online the other day where some liberal woman was talking about how like, Christianity is the religion of Paul, and people forget that. Like, you know, Paul never even met Jesus. And like then a like a reasonable conservative Christian is like, you do know that like all of the words that we have of Christ were written are like someone else's words recorded, like 

[00:59:46] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:59:46] Tony Arsenal: All of it is secondhand in a sense. Um. All of that to say, uh, there is something sweet about the red letters, right? For sure. Um, it's not that they're more inspired or that we should take them more seriously, um, but we should definitely take them at least as seriously as we take the epistles, which I think sometimes, uh, reform Christians do have a tendency to prioritize Paul over the gospels.

Um, some of that is that it's explicitly teaching material, um, which makes it a little easier to digest and a little easier to preach. Um, but we definitely should spend time in the gospels. We should spend time, um, studying the words of our savior, studying what he taught his people in, you know, the people who were with him when he taught his apostles directly.

Um, there's a lot of value to that that we don't wanna overlook and we don't, don't wanna pass by. So I'm glad that we're gonna be in the parables for the foreseeable future. I mean, it's gonna be a long time, and, and I'm, I'm stoked for it. I'm here for it. 

[01:00:46] Jesse Schwamb: I'm definitely here for it. I think what we keep going back to is, wow, do they like pack a punch?

Like what? What I would've probably read through and have read before with somewhat of like a cursory attitude like, yeah, yeah, okay. It's a recapitulation just for emphasis. Right. What I found this time around was, of course it was doubling down on some things, but also giving us something completely different and new to consider.

And if, unless again, this is just. The condemnation. I feel the conviction I have is that I just spend far too little time in meditating on words like this. Yeah. It just, a little bit of meditation. I think God honors that. It, it kindles a fire within us for the scriptures, for greater love, for Christ, for closeness to Christ that is absent when we just tend to read through these, like again, like we're just eating that cheeseburger on the way home, on the highway real quick because we've got things to do and we've gotta just pack in a meal because we know we gotta eat between things instead.

Love ones. We gotta sit down at the table, take our time, get the nap, get the, get the nice cloth napkins, you know what I'm talking about. 

[01:01:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. 

[01:01:55] Jesse Schwamb: And have the, the family style dinner passed around. Talk to everybody and set aside the time knowing like the, the activity for today is like, like you would treat like a, a good old American Thanksgiving.

You come to that meal knowing like, this is what we're doing today is we're eating. We're fellowshipping, we're, we're spending time with one another. We're taking our time to enjoy and to savor. And I think you and I are always trying to grow in that to some degree. But here again, we have just a lovely excuse to do a little savoring of the scripture.

So come and savor with us. 

[01:02:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, uh, something that just crossed my mind that's a little bit insane is like, if you're reading the Bible in a year, which the like Yes. Read the Bible every year. Sure. If you're reading the Bible in a year, you, you read this chapter probably along with one or two others in a single sitting.

[01:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right. 

[01:02:43] Tony Arsenal: And like, how often do we take time to sit down and really think about. Two or three or four verses and just really s like really sit in that. Mm-hmm. Um, there's a huge benefit to reading. I've said this before, like, especially I think especially in the Old Testament, um, because we're not, probably not used to.

As much expository preaching in, in, especially like Old Testament narratives. Um, we are not used to really digging deep into the Old Testament and we don't hear a lot of it. Um, there's a lot of benefit in reading large portions of text in one sitting. Like, it's great if you do a, like a reading plan where you're reading through the Bible three times in a year and you're read like 5, 6, 7 chapters in one sitting.

That's great. But also it's good to sit and read like two chapters and really, or two, two verses and really meditate on them, really think about them. Um, we don't do that as much. Right? And there's a huge, huge blessing and benefit in it. Um, so yeah, you gotta have a very diet. Sometimes you gotta read a lot, sometimes you should read a little.

Uh, ideally you're doing both of those. Most days you're spending time reading big chunks and, um, and also meditating on small chunks. But I'm glad that at least in this series for the foreseeable future, we're really taking our time and we're really kind of doing the slow roast. Low and slow is the way to go with this.

[01:04:01] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, and slow like a pot roast on the Lord's day. 

[01:04:04] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes. 

[01:04:05] Jesse Schwamb: Well, whether you read a lots or you read a little, we know that. Until next time, you should honor everyone. 

[01:04:11] Tony Arsenal: Love the brotherhood.