In episode 474 of The Reformed Brotherhood, host Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological question: "Is God humble?" Through a careful examination of Philippians 2 and the narrative of Pharaoh in Exodus, Jesse unpacks how Christ's incarnation represents the ultimate act of divine humility. This episode reveals how Jesus—fully God and fully man—humbled himself through obedience to the point of death on a cross. As we approach the Christmas season, this timely reflection helps us understand that Christ's humility isn't just a theological concept but the very foundation of our salvation and the magnetic force that draws sinners to him. Jesse connects this humility to Jesus' parables about seeking the lost, showing that God's love manifests through the paradox of the exalted one becoming lowly.

Christ's humility represents one of the most astonishing paradoxes in Scripture. As Jesse explains, humility is properly understood as a creaturely virtue—it acknowledges God as Lord and obeys as a servant. For the eternal Son to humble himself, he first had to take on human nature. The incarnation wasn't God ceasing to be God but rather God adding humanity to himself. The divine Son emptied himself "not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world."

This emptying makes possible Christ's perfect obedience. Since humility means acknowledging God as Lord and obeying as a servant, the Son took "the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men." This allowed Jesus to demonstrate a servant heart with equal passion for God's holiness and his people's purity. Unlike our inconsistent obedience, Jesus' obedience was "an all the way kind of obedience" that persisted through suffering to death on a cross.

One of the most profound insights from the episode is how Christ's humility functions as a magnetic force drawing sinners to him. Jesse notes that in the parables, tax collectors and sinners were drawn not to the Pharisees' teaching but to Jesus himself. They came "almost magnetically" to be in his presence and hear his words. Why would this be?

The answer lies in recognizing that "we all have a master" and "we are all bound to something." The critical question becomes: "How good and kind is your master?" Christ's humility reveals him to be the perfect master—one who does not lord his authority over us but uses it to serve us, even to the point of death. This servant-hearted humility draws people because it demonstrates love in action. When Jesus humbles himself to seek the lost, he reveals that the gospel isn't about making "naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him."

"To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant. In order to do so, then the Son had to take this form of a servant being born in the likeness of men."

"Christ's obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience. It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else."

"To humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather is pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity. To humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made."

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so.

Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people.

Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where all of mankind is on the naughty list. Hey, brothers and sisters, I am solo hosting once again on this episode, but I don't want you to worry. Tony will be back. Tony is alive and well. He is out in the wild doing his thing.

Actually, this is probably the time of year where Tony and I bring forward that annual or perennial denial. You know, the one, it's sy against the frailty, weakness, contingency of humankind. And most often manifested in this time of year in sickness. So I don't know where you live in the world, but in my part of the world, everybody's getting it and everything is going around.

The sickness is everywhere. And even if you're bobbing and weaving, if you're laying low, if you're trying to keep your head down, it just seems somehow. To snipe you. And so it sniped Tony last week and this week. Now it is his family and so he's doing what we shall do for another. He's caring for those in his own regard that are sick and unwell.

And so that means it's just me on this particular episode, but not to fear. We've got lots of great things to talk about.

[00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: In fact, the whole purpose of this episode is going to be talking about this question is God humble and. This, if you think it's just a one-off episode. It's actually born out of this continued series that we're doing where we're going through the parables.

And again, we've been talking a lot about lostness and finding things and Christ coming and seeking, saving those things that were very lost. And so as I continue to process this with Tony, one of the things that keeps coming to my mind is this question is God. Humble and what does that even have to do with any of these wild parables that we've been talking about?

You know the ones too, especially if you've been listening along and hopefully you have go back, check those bad boys out. We've been talking about the lost coin, the lost Sheep, and we have yet to get to because we're just teasing this for you. We, we keep telling you it's coming, but that's just to build like this amazing anticipation for the parable of the lost son or the prodigal son.

It's coming, and part of that, again, for me is wrapped up in this question, is God humble? So let's talk about that a little bit.

[00:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's interesting to me that throughout the scriptures, we find across both all the New Testament, that God gives us this imperative to seek humility or to put on humility, or to have a humble mind, as Peter says.

And it's something that is so ubiquitous that we kind of just flies by us. Of course. Like we would get the sense that it would be ridiculous to be like. I am so good at being humble that that in itself is oxymoronic. And yet we also know that we don't want to advertise, that we're trying to seek after humility.

'cause it seems like that's the very thing that we're trying to avoid in proclaiming or promulgating our pride and that kind of thing. But it's not just that, of course, God is seeking his children to be humble, but I think one of the most condemning things the scripture says to us about how God behaves.

Toward people is that he opposes the proud. So the opposite of being humble, and we'll get to that in a second. We had to define what that means, but let's just take for a second that the opposite of that might be being prideful. It is fascinating that it's not just God is indifferent toward pride, that he does everything in his volition to push against it.

And of course, because nothing can thwart the outstretched in mighty arm of God, that means that he wins inevitably against all that is pride prideful. And so he opposes it. And this is what. We should realize is that really the eschatological judgment, the fact that there is both heaven and hell reward and eternal punishment.

This is a reflection of God opposing the proud that in the final state, the one who says, I want nothing to do with God because I can take care of it myself, is the one that God must oppose pose because he always. Opposes that which is prideful, and so it makes sense. Then if he opposes the proud, if that is in a way, an enemy that he will ultimately defeat, it cannot stand up against him that shouldn't.

That in that path is both destruction that is internally derived and chosen, but also destruction that comes externally because it will be defeated. Then the best thing that God's people could be is to be humble. And so the question I think then persists, can God be humble? Is God. Humble. One of the things that is clear in scripture, again, this is the testimony of the entire arc of the salvific story of God and his recu of his people.

Um, the coming and drawing close giving of himself so that he might draw people onto himself. Is that the testimony of humility is both positive and negative in the scriptures. So we could look at examples of those who humbled themselves. That's what the scripture says, like Josiah, Hezekiah, Rebo, Ahab, Vanessa, and then there, of course, you could probably think of as just as many negative examples who did not.

What comes to my mind, of course, is Pharaoh. Or am Amen or Zetia. So what becomes clear though is when you look at those examples that the humbling first belongs to the hand of God. That even here, once again, God's doing all the verbs. That's exactly what he does. And so this idea of even like humbling yourself.

Has like a precursor, there's an antecedent. And is God doing some kind of great work to allow for this humbling to even take place? He initiates the humbling of his creatures. And once he has, then the question confronts us, uh, which is, are we going to receive it? How will we bear up underneath it? Will we submit ourselves to it because God has allowed us, or has humbled ourselves first so that we don't respond in kind.

So in response to his humbling hand. Will we kick against him? Or as the, you know, king James version says, will we kick against the gods or are we going to come and humble ourselves before God? So this idea, I think of humbling ourselves isn't just like you wake up one day and you say, no, it'd be really fantastic.

Is my life would be better if I was just humble. I, I hear that God opposed to the proud, I don't wanna get. Lost in that. I don't wanna get wrapped in that. I would rather, instead I just become more humble. Even the ability to humble oneself first comes from this humbling hand of God, which is of course the greatest gift.

And so of course Peter writes, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God. I mean, that's where I'm drawing this from and. That is the first descent of humility. The first coming down is a word that God would do that for us, will put us in a place that we might be humbled. And then the creature has somewhat in his turn kind of imperfect language, but somehow in his response that God is humbling me.

Will I embrace it? Will I humble myself? So given that background, I think you know exactly where I'm about to go in the scripture, and that is. The pretty, I would say, epic passage of humility, which is Philippians two. It's one of the most striking assertions in all of scriptures. That Christ himself, Jesus the Savior, the one who is truly God and truly man, he humbled himself and God himself truly divine, truly human, and the person of his son, he humbles himself.

And I think that is worth the slow meditation and a little bit of marveling again, as we consider that in light of. All that happens in these parables about lostness and ness is coming from in some way this first humility. And I think that's just so critical because it's not just context, it's the air in which we breathe and operate and understand who we are and who we are in Christ.

And so I think before like we even assume. I wanna assume like too much about like this idea of humility and then getting it ultimately to this question is God humble, which you may think I just answered by reading Philippians two eight, but in fact I think it's even more complex and more beautiful and more deeply layered than all of that.

I think it's worth for a second, just thinking about this idea of like, what is humility?

[00:08:35] Jesse Schwamb: And as far as I can tell, really the first mention of humility outright, like outright mention explicit notation in the scriptures comes in that showdown between Egypt's Pharaoh and Yahweh mediated through Moses and.

And I picked this because it's really instructive for getting a sense of how the Bible, how the scripture, the Holy Spirit is apprehending this word and driving it into the context so that we might learn from it, so that later on we're told that we ought to exhibit humility, put on humility that we understand it in the way that God has taught it to us.

And so you'll remember. Probably that Moses dared to appear before Pharaoh. He is an Exodus five, and he speaks on Yahweh's behalf, and it's that famous sentence, that famous imperative, let my people go to, which Pharaoh replies in my paraphrase, listen, I don't know who Yahweh is. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't listen to his voice. I don't acknowledge him, and therefore you can't go. It's just not gonna happen. What is incredible about this. What I think is like really illustrative for our lives is that Pharaoh swollen in pride here, and again, God's gonna pose him swollen with all of this. Pride has, it's not that he hasn't thought through what he's saying here, it's just that he's made an incredible miscalculation.

He actually did a little mathematics here as the creature, and he decides that. As a creature in relation to the creator God that he does not need to obey. In other words, he does not acknowledge or recognize or know this God, and because he doesn't know any of those things about Yahweh, then he's well within his reason to come to the conclusion that he does not need to obey and therefore he refuses.

The reason why I think that's so critical and a little bit wild is that is exactly what the natural man is prone to do to make this miscalculation built on even some kind of reasonable logic, so to speak. That says, well, because I don't understand it, because I don't see it, because I can't acknowledge it because I've never heard it.

Therefore, it cannot exist. It doesn't exist. It's not worthy of being obeyed. It's a bit like saying, just because I've never seen fire, that's not hot. And so it's crazy here that in the midst of all of that, we could say Pharaoh has made this enormous miscalculation. And so what he's going to do is he's going to essentially oppose God.

He refuses to obey, and then of course, Exodus 10 as we move. This story describes this call to humility, and it is a call to humility, which when I was thinking back through this, I was like, this is wild. Because we tend to think this story as like submission and beating down and humility might not be the principle word.

That comes to our mind when we think about how Har Pharaoh has to ultimately respond. But after seven plagues on the cusp of the eighth plague, God speaks to Pharaoh, and again, he's listen. He says to him, how long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? So fascinating because we have this. Humbling, mighty hand of God, the outstretched work of God, his hand and arm going out into the world of his creation and putting Pharaoh in a particular place and position.

And the piercing question in this context of this extended powerful encounter gives us this glimpse into the heart of humility, which I think is this humility recognizes and obeys the one who is truly. God. So there's not just an intellectual scent, but an experiential knowledge that comes from the revelation of who God is that is under his purview granted to his people, and that then causes us to acknowledge and obey the one who's truly Lord.

It's exact opposite of affairs response, which again says, I don't know that voice. I've never heard it. Who is Yahweh? And instead it's replaced with a humility that acknowledges that God is Lord of all, that Jesus Christ is one only son, and that his Holy Spirit is with and indwells his people and that he is truly Lord.

So humility entails this kind of right view, I think of self. Because Pharaoh Miscalculates, but the humble person makes the right calculus, the one who is created by God and accountable to God, which requires the right view of God as creator and this authority in relation to all his creatures. And so humility then is of course, like not a preoccupation with self or one's, even one's own lowness only in so much as it's in relation to what we just mentioned.

That's a right view of self. It's an agreement with God. Of course confession coming alongside agreeing with God, but it's a mindful and conscious understanding of who God is and his highness, his holiness, that he's high and lifted up, and then the self in respect to his position. You know, that's one of the things that I think always strikes me about humility is that it's this idea and this acknowledgement that God is high and lifted up.

And so while we don't come too hard on ourselves merely because we want to create a pity party, it's a recognition that. Aside from the mediator work of Christ to to stand in the presence of God would to be literally torn asunder by the molecule because his holiness cannot be, or rather, I would say our sinfulness cannot be in this presence of the one who is perfect in majesty and in righteousness, in intellect, and in in comprehension and creativity.

We cannot exist in that space apart from this mediated work of Christ the beautiful. Be editorial, like benevolent distance, so to speak, that Christ creates so that we might come into the presence of God, as Hebrew says, running as it were, coming in, not haphazardly, but purposefully into the throne room of God because.

And his holiness. He's a way to, he's made a way for him to be just and justifier. That is incredible. Loved ones. It's beautiful. And that is all. Again, I think just underneath this parable, it's starting with this sense of humility has brought all of this into play, and it's a critical part of God's design and plan.

There's a condescension, but I think even here, underneath that condescension is something about humility. That is worth discussing. And there is, the question again, is God humble. So put it another way. Humility, I think embraces the reality that you and I. We're not God. You know, pride led to humanity's fall when Adam and Eve desired to be like God, which is contrary to his command and humility would have obeyed his command, which is what we'll see when we come to Christ and especially Christ's work.

So.

[00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: It strikes me then, and this is why I threw out this question, is like, is God humble? It's kind of a setup, I'll be honest, because all of I said so far, if you are keeping score at home, you probably should be drawing out then that I'm essentially saying that humility is a creaturely virtue. Actually, it's not just me.

A lot of people have said that, a lot of the old ones. I postulate that, that when we think about humility explicitly and in a narrow context, that's a creaturely virtue. It's a posture of. All of who we are, our soul, our body, our life, our activities, our families, our possessions. It's acknowledgement in those things and embracing that the goodness of God and that he is the one who controls and commands all things, all of our destiny, which means.

This question is God humble? It is kind of like linguistically and theologically tricky, like not for the sake of creating a tricky question for like a part of the game, but the the answer is in a sense, no, but not because God, I think is the opposite of what we'd consider humble. He's not arrogant, he's not prideful.

Rather, humility is a creaturely virtue and he's God. So we need to be again, in this appropriate separation of our state and who God is, recognizing that those are two very different things. All of this though, I think, contributes to moving us in a direction of understanding, well, what does this mean then?

For Jesus Christ, the God man, the one who humbled himself. You've probably been screaming the entire time. Will you get to that? What about that? And I think that is the critical question that is behind everything that we're reading about. In these parables. In other words, why is Jesus this way? What has brought him into this particular place to say these particular things to these people?

We talked last time about how one of the things that's remarkable is that all of these sinners, like the down out, the broken, the marginalized, the pariahs, they were all drawn to Jesus teaching, not even drawn. I mean, there's distinction not drawn to the Fara teaching, to the rules of the law, but drawn to Jesus, almost magnetically coming to him.

Compelled as it were, to be in his presence, to hear the things he was saying. Captivate, I mean, can you imagine yourself there? Not necessarily there in that environment, but captivated again by the teachings of Jesus, how good they are, how true they are, how incredible they are. And so I think it's possible for us to marvel then at that remarkable word then from the impossible, Paul, when he says that Christ humbled himself in Philippians two, eight.

And no, I think that that confirms our definition above of humanity, uh, of. Humility rather as being something in humanity, of being a, a creaturely virtue in that the eternal son first became a man. That's what Paul says in verse seven, and then humbled himself in verse eight. And I'm gonna submit to you that this is really the one of the most epic parts of the gospel that.

This is the only way we can get this kind of humility, this humbling of God is if first he comes to undertake the creaturely virtue so that then he himself or become rather, lemme say it this way, I'm getting too excited, loved ones. It's rather that we first must have God become a creature, so to speak, not emptying himself as we'll.

Talk about. Of, of his godness, but instead taking on this flesh so that he might humble himself be to be like his children who must be humbled and in fact will ultimately be humbled in the ES eschaton no matter what they believe. And so the verb Paul uses to capture the action of the incarnation is, is not humbled here first, but it's this idea of emptied.

So again, Philippians two is verse six and seven. Paul writes, being in the form of God, Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant and being born in the likeness of man. And so this movement.

[00:18:59] Jesse Schwamb: From heaven to earth, which if you're listening to this in more or less real or New York time, as we're coming into the season of the calendar where we celebrate the incarnation, again, I've been thinking so much about this beautiful gift of the incarnation, and I've been thinking about that in light of Jesus coming to seek and to save the lost and this real heart to hearts kind of way where he's speaking the truth to the people who need to hear it most, and they're drawn magnetically to him, into his teaching.

And so that movement. From Heaven to earth is an emptying. It's the divine son emptying himself, not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world.

I think a lot, honestly, especially this time of year, I think a lot about strange things like Jesus has fingernails and blood vessels and eyeballs and hair and toes. And shins and knee bones, you know, all of these things. Because to me it's this incomprehensible reality that God loves me so much that he would send his only son to be a creature, but in a way that was limited to the same creatureliness that I have.

And then would forever, in a way, in his glorified state, identify still with that creature. And only in that process could he come and humble himself. I mean, that's incredible. I mean. Could not have grasped like the divine privilege of not being subjected to the rules and realities of creation. But instead, he empties himself by taking our humanity.

He was emptying not by subtraction of identity, but by addition of humanity. This is the taking, the taking on, and this allows him then to become obedient and in that obedience, that passive and act of obedience. What we find is that Christ is able to say these very things that are exemplified in the parables, that this is the height of God, and he says, it is in your midst.

The kingdom of God is here and I am the kingdom, and it's all because he has come in such a way. To empty himself again, where that was not a subtraction of divinity, but addition of humanity. It is an amazing and glorious truth. It's the thing upon which like turns all of salvation and all of the world that God would do this and do it so completely that again, it's finalized, it's complete, it's already done.

So first, Jesus became a man. And then as a man came the ly virtue, he humbled himself. And Paul confirms what we learned about humility. In the negative example, I think in Pharaoh of Pharaoh in Nexus 10 and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

[00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so.

Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people.

And those two things come together and coalesce in the gospel because we know that righteousness and holiness is completely vouched, safe to God. It's under his purview and his control, and it comes to his people when he draws close. That's how it was in the Old Testament, and that's how it was in the New Testament.

And so as Christ in human form is coming and drawing near to his people, he's preaching this good news message that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood will have salvation and eternal life in him So intimately wrapped up that again, he hasn't just come. In the Christmas season to make naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him, and therefore, because he's the indestructible life, your life and mine cannot be destroyed either.

I. So it is this amazing mark of the fullness of humanity and identification with us that he didn't just come on special terms. You know, I often think it's not like God on a deck chair laid out looking down as a creation separate as he were, as it were, just observing and kind of more or less interjecting here and there.

It wasn't Jesus coming at. Arms length, distance. It wasn't God snatching him up when the frustrations of our limits or the pains of our world fell him. He had the full human experience. He was all in fully human and body mind. Hearts will and surroundings. Fully human in our finitude and all of this frustrations that we share that are just part of our lives, fully human in.

Vulnerability to the worst of the civil world can work. Clearly that's manifested in his ign Ammonious death. Nor was he at the bottom spared the very essence of being human. He was accountable to God. Even there, that humility is incredible, that he himself learned, undertook, became obedient so that he would be accountable to God a father.

Hebrews five celebrates this. Exactly. I love this set of words. Although Jesus was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered and being made perfect. He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. And if he is our first brother, then the calling that we have is to do exactly the same, to come before him, to obey him and to see him as the one who is high and lift it up.

But that self humbling, that humiliation doesn't just stop with obedience. And that's why the apostle keeps going. It says to the point of death, how far did it take him? How far did he go? How far was he willing to go? Volitionally all the way. To the point of death. And Christ obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience.

It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else. You know, of course, even in the garden when he's praying and the disciples are with the in your shot and he asked that the cup might pass, we might reasonably ask what other option was there.

And so here even Christ says. Even to the point of death, forsaking all other things, real obedience endures in obedience, which is a really difficult thing. And so I'm grateful because my obedience is peace wise, it is part and parcel, it is weak, it is feeble. And instead we have Christ who is transferred all of his righteousness into our account.

And all of that righteousness is because of real obedience that he undertook, endured in obedience. And so Christ did not begin obedience and then surrender disobedience once the greatest threats loomed even in the garden. There he again. He is coming before the father and he is continuing to obey. He's humbled.

So I think God does indeed command our humility and one of the ways that he can command that it, well, there's many ways. First and foremost, by fiat, he's God and his character demands it. The second way is that, again, coming back to these parables. Finally, and lastly, we see that Christ is exhibiting great humility in the message that he's bringing forward and all of this, that he comes forward to save and all of the seeking that he undertakes, he conspires with God in humility to bring his children.

Into the fold. There was no other way without this incredible humility of Christ, this humility that shows us that it's not denigrating of humanity, but it's God's image shining in its fullness. That this is the very thing he comes to restore and to humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather it is.

Pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity to humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made. And Christ exemplifies that very thing. And I submit to you loved ones. It's that very humility. This is what I buried the lead on last week.

It's that very humility that draws the sinner. Because we all have a master. We are all slaves to something, which I know is really unpopular to say, but hear me out. We are all stuck on something. We are all bound into something. It's just like we say with worship, it's not whether we not, we choose to worship.

It's what we worship and we are what we worship. All those things are true. All those cliches stand and if they're true, then the opposite is true and that is that we're all bound to something. The question is how good and kind is your master. The thing in which you are bound to the thing which you choose to serve and submit to how life giving is that thing.

And the humility of Christ clarifies that not all of our hum lings are owning to our own sin that Christ had. None, none. Yet he humbled himself. Sometimes repentance is the first step in self humbling. Other times it's not. Our self humbling may often come in response to our exposure to sin, but even in Christ sinless as he was.

He heeded the father's call to humble himself. And so I think for us, as we think about what it means then to go and study these parables, we first even need to humble our understanding, our cognizance, our reasoning, our logic, that the scripture as given by God as his very word to us, stand so far above us.

That while we study it and we interrogate it, that we dare not stand in opposition to it because it is the high and lofty command of God for us because he's good and his love endures forever. So I hope that as we continue to build into this next step of looking at this final lost parable, that we can all continue to just appreciate and boast in the God man who in his humility, makes the gospel possible, and that in his humility shows.

A greater sense of what it means to have the abundant life. And we have to take Jesus at his word, loved ones when he says like He's come, not just to give life, but to give it in abundance that that is a real quantity, and that the humility of Christ in his life and death and resurrection testifies to one of God's clearest and most memorable promises in all of scripture.

That again, he humbles the proud and he exalts the humble. So it was with Christ. He humbled himself and God has highly exalted him. I remember reading John Owen writing about. Justification and Christ's time of suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and his preparation for the cross and inevitably his, his forsaking, his forsakenness on that cross and how Jesus himself entrusted his justification to God the Father, which I think is a.

A, a conception that will make your mind do a somersault. I mean, think about it long enough that even Jesus himself in learning obedience and taking upon himself the full measure of what it was to sit under the law and then to obey it perfectly, was still going to his death, knowing that he was gonna be the greatest sinner who ever lived yet was gonna be the one without sin, having committed any, that he himself was entrusting all of that he had accomplished and who he was.

To God the father, to justify him and his resurrection on the third day loved ones is proof positive that he is the savior. That we all long for that in our sickness right now, as in our world, as all these things groan, as they all say, in some way, maratha, Lord, come quickly, that we are acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the one.

Who in his complete humility satisfied the law of God to such degree that he was justified before God the father, and raised TriNet on the third day as proof positive that he is in fact the Savior, the chosen one, the Messiah, the first brother, the firstborn among the dead, the serpent crusher. The one who will come and redeem all of his people.

So I hope there's something in there for you that's an encouragement that lifts up as if they were even possible to do more than they already are. That lifts up these parables that we've been talking about, that it's not just, of course, that Jesus on this mission because. He's full of love. His love predated all of this.

Now, this is why we keep coming back to, uh, all Christians at all times, in all heirs. John three 16, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. Now whosoever should believe in him. Now, all the believing ones should have eternal life, and that eternal life is purchased by the blood of Christ and through his humility, but also it is a, a stark reminder that love always leads to giving.

And here we have God the father, giving his son Unreservedly for us, becoming Creature Lee, so that he might undertake the humility of the creature. And in so doing fully, not just, I would say identify with who we are, but become like us in every a. Way yet without sin, which is why can we rejoice that even now in the sound of my voice or yours, wherever you are, there is Jesus Christ in Heavenly Rumble.

Before the God the Father interceding perfectly as this incredible representative, as the scriptures are, he says, as this best of all, the high priests, the perfect one. Who is ushering us in to bend the ear, as it were of God because of what he's accomplished on our behalf. Man, that is good news. And if it's not good news and you don't think it is, you better check your pulse.

Check it right now.

[00:33:20] Jesse Schwamb: So you need to come back. And listen to the next episode because we are, I mean, I think assuming everybody's healthy, Lord willing, we're gonna talk about the Prodigal Son and really wrap up this culmination of the lost parables. But of course, you know that I'm contractually obligated to say to you all.

That you don't have to just wait to interact until the next podcast. You can come hang out with us, and I gotta say it again for all the people in the back. The way that you do that is this little app called Telegram. You might be using Telegram already to message with your friends and your family. If so, you might not have known that.

There's also a little group within Telegram for the Reform Brotherhood. Everybody who listens, everybody wants to hang out and talk about theology or life share prayer requests. It's all happening right there, and I promise you, you will not be disappointed if you come check it out. So you're probably saying enough already.

Tell me how to do that. Alright, here's what you do. Get a piece of paper, stop the car, put down the backhoe for a second, and listen up. You go to your favorite browser and you type in t me slash reform brotherhood. T. Me Reform Brotherhood. Come hang out with us. Come talk about the episode, and until then, everybody stay.

Well keep your head down. Don't list sick sickness night people. But remember, even if it does, you have this great high priest who endured obedience, in obedience to bring you abundant life, to identify with you, to resonate with you, to give you the love of God, and to finally conquer sin, death, and the devil.

I say loved ones, so until next time, you know what to do. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological underpinnings of Jesus' parables in Luke 15. With co-host Tony Arsenal absent due to illness, Jesse takes listeners through the "deleted scenes" – insights and reflections that often occur off-mic – about the parables of the Lost Sheep and Lost Coin. These stories reveal God's relentless pursuit of sinners and set the stage for the upcoming discussion of the Prodigal Son parable. Jesse unpacks how these parables demonstrate not just God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active seeking of them – a grace that doesn't merely find us willing but makes us willing. This episode serves as a theological bridge, slowing listeners down to fully appreciate the scandal of God's love before diving into Jesus' most famous parable.

The religious establishment of Jesus' day operated on the principle that religion was for "good people" – those who could maintain moral standards and ritual purity. When tax collectors and sinners were drawn to Jesus, the Pharisees were scandalized not just by Jesus' association with them, but by the possibility that these "hopeless cases" might be included in God's kingdom. This context sets up the revolutionary nature of Jesus' parables.

As Jesse explains, "Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help pariahs in that way, and so it did no good then to command the good people to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities." What makes Christianity utterly unique is that it begins not with human initiative but with divine pursuit. God in Christ actively seeks those who are lost, not waiting for them to clean themselves up or take the first step. This complete reversal of religious expectations demonstrates why these parables were and remain so radical.

The Reformed theological principle that Jesse highlights through Thomas Watson's quote – "Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing" – strikes at the heart of human pride and misconception about salvation. Left to ourselves, we don't merely lack the ability to come to God; we actively resist Him.

Jesse elaborates: "How good of God that He would send His Son unto us while we were yet His enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against Him." The wonder of grace is not just that God forgives when we repent, but that He creates the very repentance within us. This is why the shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to find the one – the sheep doesn't find its own way home. This is the beating heart of Reformed soteriology: salvation is entirely of the Lord, from first to last, which makes it secure and gives all glory to God alone.

"God seeking us is the foundation of seeking Him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes us willing. That is the Reformed theology."

"He's not this like sinless Superman. What I mean by that is... it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us. But the beauty of these parables is... Christ puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save is brought into our lives."

"Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How good is that sentence?"

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: It reminds me of this quote from. Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes.

Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him.

Welcome to episode 473 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for Lost Sheep and Lost Coins. Hey, brothers and sisters, you're listening to another episode of The Reformed Brotherhoodhood, but you've probably already noticed. That we are missing my co-host and my brother Tony, who regrettably was taken up ill this week, and so in his convalescence, I'm coming at you with a solo episode and what are you probably asking is worth listening to in the solo episode?

Well, I have a proposal for you. So often what happens is when Tony and I sit down. And we record a beautiful, robust conversation, the definitive kind of talk on some topic. We shut off the microphone. And then of course he and I continue to talk to one another. And what often happens is somehow, like a second or a third episode basically starts because we go back to what we were talking about before and we have some kind of new insight or something new that we wanted to say that didn't make it into the episode.

[00:01:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so this episode is gonna be about some of those deleted scenes if you were, were like the things that. We talked about, but didn't make it into some of our recent conversations about the parables, these three parables of the Lost Sheep, the lost coin, and now The Lost Son. Now I know what you're thinking, and I made a promise to Tony.

We're not gonna get to the Prodigal son on this episode. That is something he and I are looking forward to discussing with one another and with you. So that will be next week. But on this little episode, I thought it was best to slow down just for a second and to give you, again, some of those things we've been talking about as we've been thinking about lostness, and to set that up as a precursor to wet your appetite just a little bit for this biggest of all of the parables, maybe the most well-known parable in the entire universe.

The parable of the prodigal son, which again, is coming for you, but not on this one. Don't even get me started. How dare you. Now, normally if this were a traditional episode, you would hear that ous segue from me that goes something like this. Hey Tony, are you affirming with or denying again, something on this episode?

And because it's just me, it'd be super weird to do something atenol with just myself.

[00:03:17] Jesse Schwamb: I figured it is high time for me to give you a particular affirmation, so here's what I'm gonna do. I am affirming with you like you brother and sister listening. I truly am affirming with you because as the year draws to close, I was thinking just again, how grateful I am for everybody who hangs out, everybody who listens, everybody who gives to the reformed brotherhood, because we all do it together.

Nothing happens by accident. Nothing shows up in your podcast feed without somebody taking care of the attendant costs, without people lending their voices, without conversation around it. And if you're wondering, well, who are these other people? Because I thought it was just you too. There are brothers and sisters from all over the world who are looking to follow closely after Lord Jesus Christ, wanting to process theology and wanting to do so in a way that makes us better and more obedient toward our loving savior.

And in serving those around us. And the good news is you also can just connect with us and with them. And the best way to do that, as we've said so many times before, but I'm gonna say it one more time for everybody in the back, is you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just a messaging app, and we've carved out just a little corner of that app so that people that are listening to the podcast can come hang out and talk about.

Whatever you want. So the way to do that is go to any browser, pick your favorite one, and just type in t me slash reform brotherhood, t me slash reform brotherhood, and that link will get you there. You can also do another thing. You can go to reform brotherhood.com. The podcast does have a website, believe it or not, and on that website, reform brotherhood.com live, all of the other episodes we have ever recorded.

And so you can search those by topic about what's going on in them. You can find all kinds of different things to listen to. You'll also find a link there if in fact you would like to also support the podcast. So we are so grateful for so many brothers and sisters. Who have decided, you know what? I've been blessed by the conversations by the community, and I wanna make sure that it remains that way free of charge to everyone.

And they're the ones along with us that are shouldering that burden, and I'm so grateful. So you can find a link there if in fact you are so inclined to give so. Brothers and sisters, I'm affirming with you it's time that I did that, and I'm so grateful for all of you. And again, the purpose of this little episode is to spend a little bit of time getting ready, getting after it.

[00:05:42] Jesse Schwamb: For this, the biggest of all, the granddaddy of all the parables, the parable of the prodigal son and I, as I was thinking about this episode, it occurred to me it's a bit like, I don't know where you live. Where I live, there are these signs on the road that can script the speed at which you can travel on those roads at least legally.

Right, and I was thinking about this as I was driving the other day, that I have a road with a speed limit. Say it's 50 miles an hour, but there is a bend in this road. And on that bend as I approach it, there's another sign of a different color that's more suggestive and it's a lower speed limit. It's as if to say, listen, I know you can travel at 50, but what might be wise right now is to slow it down so that you don't veer off the road because.

As you take this turn, what's best practice, what's most safe for you is to slow down for a second. And I was kind of thinking about that as we were going into these parables. We wanna get to the parable of the prodigal sun. It's dramatic, it's dynamic. There's all kinds of lovely details in it. It's exciting.

We've got people now finally, whereas we had intimate objects in agriculture, now we're getting to human family dynamics and interrelations and all this activity. And it's good. We should wanna get there, but I'm kind of feeling like it's a bit like that sign that says, you know what? We might wanna slow down for a second before you turn into this parable.

Why don't you take this curve at a slightly slower speed? And so hence this little tiny episode to bring to you again, some of those deleted scenes. Some of the things that Tony, I've been talking about that never have quite made it into all of the recordings, because they probably happened before afterwards and the recording button had already been disabled.

So. Let me give you the thing that I think, Tony, I've been talking about a lot and we've definitely been thinking about, and that is again, going back to like, why did these parables even come up? Like was it Jesus volition just to start talking about this stuff? Why is it that there are three versions of it?

Why are they kind of escalating and growing in magnitude? There's clearly a crescendo coming. Hopefully you're hearing it. Like it's picking up, the pace is moving, the volume is increasing, and the stakes are getting higher and higher and higher. So what gives why all of this? And I think we gotta go back to Luke 15.

Of course. We gotta look at just that first verse because to me.

[00:08:00] Jesse Schwamb: In Luke 15, this is some of like the best comfort food of the gospel, don't you think? I mean, in this, it's like the warmest, richest passage, almost all the gospels in terms of the presentation of this really good news. And you know, these stories aren't just sentimental tales.

They actually reveal the beating heart of reform, theology, the beating, passionate love. And heart of Christ for his people. This truth that God is the one who seeks, saves, and rejoices over sinners. And so we gotta start in context because it's precisely because of that beating heart, that initiative, that volition, that Christ brings all of this up, but he brings it up in response to something that's happening.

And that's where we get in verse one. Now, the tax collectors and sinners we're all drawing near to him. I think sometimes we run, at least I do way too past. Fast past that verse, the tax collectors and the sinners we're all drawing near to him. It should be the kind of thing like talk about things that make you go, Hmm, why?

Why are we getting that now? That specific indicator here that they're drawing near. And then not only that it's being told to us, but of course what was it about Christ that drew these people? Because traditionally there, there was a lot of religion happening in Jesus' day. In some ways something special and different is happening here, that while the religion was not drawing these people, that the, the superstructures there, the participants, the leaders were not drawing this crowd by design.

Instead, they're drawn to Jesus. There's something not just in the teaching but who he is, and Luke tells us tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to him. He goes on to say, and the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them. As a result of this, Jesus tells then these three parables.

It's almost like Jesus essentially saying to the Pharisees, listen, you're accusing me of receiving sinners. Yes, you are exactly right, but I want you to know why. What a beautiful thing for him to explain and then to explain it in these thrice kind of implications and stories and metaphors. It's a beautiful thing.

It reminds me of this quote from. Period in Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes.

Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him.

And it's an incredible thing. It's far better, not that grace finds us willing, but that grace makes us willing, that grace compels us because we do not even know what's the best for ourselves. And so here again, Jesus tells us these three parables, these three stories to convey this incredible point. And that is that there is surely hope for all.

God's love extends even to these sinners. That the glorious truth, that glorious truth shines out in all of these parables, and it's meant to be impressed upon us in like increasing degree that God's amazing love is both in its scope and its reach, and especially contrast. The ideas of then these.

Pharisees and the scribes on this subject, he comes at them hard with these series of events and these stories. Tony, I've been talking about that a lot. Like we just can't get beyond that. I can't even, I wish I could comprehend it in a more deep way. You know, the first two parables are, it's dying to impress upon us that the love of God.

Is this activity. It is effort and fire and reach and going after and passion and love, and it seeks out the sinner and it takes like infinite trouble in order to find him and rescue him. It's willing to pursue all to love, all, to take up the cost of all, and then to show the joy of God and all the hosts of heaven when even just one.

Soul is saved. So it's not even this massive effort undertaking, which weighs the benefits and the costs and says, well, it's gonna be worth it in the end because the dividends earned from making this investment will be far greater than the investment itself. And what God does in Christ is he sends his son not.

Reservedly, not like arms reach, so he could snatch him back up when harm beel him, but he gives him so unreservedly in passive and active obedience so that the sinner might be saved. Even just one and one, just one is saved. All of heaven rejoices there. There is a full consummate expression of happiness and completeness and joy of just one.

Being saved and brought into God's kingdom. In other words, if that entire cost were for just one, God would still be willing to bear it. Jesus would still come in his active and past obedience to accomplish that very thing. And it's all of this that's moving us, of course, to the parable of the prodigal son, but I cannot even get there.

Don't, don't even try to get me to go there. I know you're all doing it. So there is this great and incredible outstanding point.

[00:13:20] Jesse Schwamb: It's something else that Tony had been talking about is that there's a simplicity, of course in all of these accounts, but there's also like this great complexity, especially because of this context.

And I think as well what we've been really. Settling on in our conversations outside of the podcast is just how scandalous this makes Jesus seem and appear like that Jesus does appear or he should appear to us like too good to be true, too loving, too kind, too recklessly spend thrift. And again, that's what we're gonna find in the next parable, but that that is for real and it doesn't make him weak.

It might be an expression of meekness, a power under control, but it shows that the humility of God in Christ is really beyond our ability to comprehend in reach that is so thorough and so full, and so rich and so warm that Christ is, as it were, experiencing a great, great joy. In the sinner coming and being saved, and him identifying with the sinner to such a degree and going out and finding what was lost to bring it back in.

That this act of even when we come to him in repentance over and over again, we do not exhaust him because so great is his love for us. That he's coming to save continually and always, that he doesn't have to save over and over again. There's no additional sacrifice that's necessary, but that, that sacrifice is so great, so grand, so complete that it continues to bring us back into the fold to save us as it were.

Over and over again to restore us onto fellowship with him to restore the harmony of our relationship while never having to rescind or to rebuild again the initial identity that we have in Christ that was accomplished on the cross, but that this just seems too good to be true. It just seems so miraculous that my own sin.

As it continues to compound day after day, that is like continue to do the things I don't wanna do, as Paul said. But the very things I don't wanna do, those are the things that I do. It seems like this. At some point God would just become thoroughly exhausted with, and that's not the case. And these parables prove that to us over and over.

And over again. So this very context and setting of these parables shows. I think all of this like perfectly, and Tony and I have just been conversing about that a lot. We keep going back to it. Maybe we're a little bit afraid that if we keep talking about it, you're gonna be like, you already said that, say something different.

But we can't help. We're really come back to this and. Again, I'm drawn to this line that these sinners, the publicans, if you're totally down with the King James version that they drew near unto him, they came to him. There was something about him that they were almost like compelled or constrained as, as Paul says, like God's love compels us or constraints us.

That they themselves were feeling that almost this magnetism toward Christ to want to be in his presence toward what, hear what he has to say, and what a beautiful setup that they're being drawn into him. He's eating with them. He's doing this. Most intimate thing, spending time with the me, my shoulders, with 'em, and of course the Pharisees, the scribes, the religious leaders, they see this and it's recorded that they're grumbling.

They're complaining, right, man, what an adventure in missing the point. But that's there for us. I really think to pick up here as we try to understand what these parables mean, again, it's not just like the teaching. The teaching is so good, it's so rich and juicy and, and full of so many things for us to consume and to understand and to meditate on and to metabolize.

As well that we can just quickly mix Miss, like this incredible perspective of like the context of which it took place, like the literal environment and the circumstances of life, which in some ways were the progenitor, or at least were the very thing, the fertile soil, which gave Christ the opportunity to plant.

Then these seeds of the story and what I'm raised by is they felt that. I think these sinners felt that there was a chance even for them, that like in these man's teachings, there was a new and fresh hope, and even the Pharisees and the scribes saw precisely that thing. I think that's why, that's why they're complaining, and they had regarded these sinners as being so utterly and entirely behind, beyond hope and redemption.

I mean, that was really the Orthodox view. It was to say like, listen, they're so hopeless that they were to be entirely ignored. Religion was for good people. It had nothing to do with bad people. You know, unfortunately, that's so much I think of how people view even Christianity today, that this is a club for people who have it mostly together or wanna have it together or think that they can get it together.

Religion is for the good people and it should have nothing to do with the bad people. And it certainly had nothing to. To give these sinners just in the in, in our own day. Religion, by and in of itself, has nothing to give anybody, certainly nothing to give those who are hurt. Who are feeling hopeless, who are down and out, who are the abused, who have been written off, who are marginalized, who are pariahs, who feel that the guilt is overwhelming in their lives, who have all of these regrets.

Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help you oriah in that way, and so it did no good then. To command the good people, to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities. Religion, even in Jesus day, didn't offer that. And so you can see then that the Pharisees of the scribes were annoyed by our Lord's teaching.

Anyone who saw any hope for this public or sinner must to them be entirely wrong and a blasphemer, because that's not who religion was for. And yet the sinner here. I mean, can you only imagine loved one like the sinner here in seeing Jesus? And being with Jesus, and they were drawn to him by understanding that there was some kind of new and fresh hope for them.

And that's what's delivered in these parables to us. That how scandalous love of God is, is that from the jump, those who are with him recognize the scandal and said, this is so otherworldly that it seems like. This could be for me. And that is exactly why Jesus came, right? He came to seek and to save those who are lost.

The point is was not how he could be received back, but whether he could be received back at all, whether he deserved anything at all. And so the sinner coming and saying that, is it possible that even for me. There is hope that even for me, there could be restoration with God. That for all the things which I already know, that I'm far from God, that I see him as the one who has these incredible and high in standards that I have transgressed, is it possible that there is hope for me?

You know, just this morning on our Lord's day, because that's time of year, one of the songs that we sang was Joy to the World, and I was thinking even as we were preparing to sing that what, what other people conceive of that? Him. You know, we might rightly ask, is there any joy in our world today? Is there any hope?

Is there any peace? And the answer is, yes, there is. It's in Jesus. You know that he is the answer. But we sometimes need to start saying, what is the question? And the question is, who can come before God? What can I do to be saved? That is the question. And these sinners at least understood that. They're drawn to Jesus, they're drawn to come before him.

And so this stands out to me. It's something that we've been talking about a lot, this possibility of a new start, a new beginning for all, even for the most desperate, the ones that were so far off that they recognized that they couldn't probably even turn around. You know, sometimes like we colloquial say, listen, all you have to do is turn around and we use that language because we're tying it with this idea of repentance, you know, to turn.

Toward God to to forsake that which is our natural selves by the power of the Holy Spirit and to come back into the family of Christ. And I think that is good, but I think the sinner also recognizes that the only prayer that we have is that Jesus have mercy on me. Have mercy on me that that's the right place to start.

And I see in this, this idea, of course that's clearly articulated by our savior, that God is doing all the things that we are so lost. We're like that lost sheep that's just gone astray. That we desperately need help because we can't find our way back. I'm not sure we can even barely turn around. And I think if.

What Thomas Watson is saying is correct. Then the beauty of Grace is that it does make us willing because I, for one, would go kicking and screaming all the way. But the fact that it makes us willing, it makes us come to our senses, which I have a feeling is something we will explore in a future, future episode, but that God is setting forward all of that initiative, you know.

I like that John Rowan, John Owen also writes the sheep strays and knows not how to return, but Christ the good shepherd will lose none of his flock, but fetch them home. I love this idea. That's from his expedition on Hebrews. Actually, it's not even about this particular passage. The sheep does not seek the shepherd.

The shepherd seeks the sheep. So even in this narrative, we see all these beautiful elements that. You know, Tony, I talked about before this total depravity, but it's just a narrative form that there's no one that seeks after God. And so what we find is that God is bringing forward election, choosing his own.

He's bringing about definitive atonement, he's saving his own, and then there's a sexual calling he's bringing to himself his own. It's like the Westminster Larry Catechism says in. Uh, 59 Christ, by his intercession answers the demands of those for whom he has died and for them only. And all of this then brings about this like great and incredible rejoicing in heaven.

I think, not just because it's like, it's great to find lost things, but it's also great to see that God has done the very thing that he said he was going to do, that he's the one that's, that he's the author and perfecter of salvation. And so God delights. In the work of redemption. So this is like the thing that I think is incredibly scandalous.

[00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: This is the thing that Tony and I have talked a lot about, like privately, and that is how much Jesus has compassion and the ability, the true ability to sympathize. And that in these I, I think like underneath. All of these little parables and stories. The only reason there is an action of love. That love always leads to giving.

Love always leads to going. Finding love always leads to drawing in that the only reason that is happening is because of this incredible ability of Christ to sympathize with us. You know, the burden of these verses, the anchor of these verses is Christ sheer an amazing solidarity with all of his people.

All our natural intuitions tell us that Jesus is with us on our side present helping. When life is going well. It's easy to see that. It seems very clear, but in this text, we're finding that those who are drawn are the ones whose life are decidedly not going great, not doing that well. And so the opposite is being.

Presented for us in this kinda stark relief. It's in our weakness that Jesus sympathizes with us. It's in our pain and our own destructive behaviors that he comes, not because he himself has experienced any sin, but because he is a savior whose heart is wide open to go after and to embrace those who are in that state, which seems incredible.

Scandalous, like in our pain, Jesus is pained in our suffering. He feels the suffering as his own, even though it isn't. He's not this like invincible divinity. Well, lemme say it this way. It's not that his invincible divinity is threatened, but in the sense that his heart is feelingly drawn into our distress.

Is that a word? Feelingly, like that. He literally wants to, he feels himself into our distress and, and in that doing so his joy is increased because he's identifying with his children because he is coming close to them because he is going after them. His love leads to that kind of feeling ness, so it's.

It is not only that Jesus can reveal, relieve us and reveal, I suppose, but relieve us from our troubles like a doctor prescribing medicine. It's also that before any relief comes before, like a day of restoration comes before like that day of the shackles falling off before that time when the breakthrough happens, he's with us in our troubles like a doctor who has endured the same disease.

That's what's wild. That's what makes all of this so different than any other religious worldview, than any other kind of conscription of how to think about the world and any other philosophy. And he's a sinless man, but he's not this like sinless Superman. And what I mean by that is I think some of you heard, if you've listened for any length of time, you know that there's this song.

That is a children's song. That is something like Jesus is my superhero, and I always bristle that a little bit because it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us that we want all of this power. Of course we want this. Alien power to come and to restore our lives, to intercede, to do the thing that we cannot do for ourselves.

But the beauty of these parables is the thing that we cannot do for ourselves is still the thing that Christ puts, puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save. Is brought into our lives. He comes and saves us because he knows us.

And to know us is to become like us. And to become like us is to be humiliated, to come and to humble himself and to condescend to such degree that he is again, like this doctor who can heal. But before any of that comes, he's with us in the troubles. This is Emmanuel, this is God with us, that he is the one that comes and stands shoulder to shoulder with us in that pain that feels and empathizes and comes and ministers to us in that pain, and takes great joy in doing so.

And in fact, his joy, as it were, is enlarged in doing that.

[00:27:09] Jesse Schwamb: Our tendency, I think, is to feel intuitively that the more difficult life gets, the more that we're alone. We sink further into pain, we sink further into felt isolation, and these passages correct us. Our pain never outstrips what he himself shares in.

That is what's remarkable. That is what drives and fuels, I think, in a way, this passionate heart of Christ towards us and then results in this kind of unbelievable, really loved ones. Incredible, outstanding, inconceivable good news that Christ has saved us, that he would come and in the midst of our great ugliness and sinfulness and unkindness and selfishness, that he would not only identify with that and say, you who are broken, I delight.

To repair you, but that we receive then not just a restoration, but then all of the benefits that Christ himself has earned that are due him for his obedience. These also get credited to us. I think it's impossible for me not to conclude this little conversation that we're having without going to Colossians chapter two, which again, I've said this before, but as somebody who's worked in finance and banking, all of my adult life.

Actually, I dunno why I would say it that way, because you really can't, shouldn't be working in finance or banking as a child. But for all of my life I just find this language so resonant. And if you're a person that's borrowed money for any length of time or maybe basically just worked in the world and had to endure, if that's your word, or interact with finance than you are probably gonna resonate with this.

This too. But this is. An expression of what God has done for us in Christ. And I wanna begin reading in verse 13. And you being dead in your transgressions. Oh, man. Uh, sorry, I, I hate to do this. I often don't like to do this, but you're just gonna get my commentary, the Jesse commentary in between these in, in the midst of these verses because I, I should probably best practice to read the whole thing for y'all.

But I just, I am dumbfounded. I keep getting dumbstruck by these words and thinking about these in light of, uh, the incarnation and of Christ coming and these parables that he's teaching us that are just showing like as if he's just opening up his heart to us, and I can't, but help but stop and pause and say, are, are you hearing this too?

And you being dead in your transgressions. This is so horrible, isn't it? Like who wants this to be true of them? But this is, this is my story and your story that we were dead and it's not a who done it mystery. You know what killed us? Our transgressions, yours and mines our own work. That the minimum wage of sin is death and that your transgressions killed you and that you were in that state.

You were in that state actually from the beginning, from the time that you were born. You were dead and you were dead in your transgressions. That is super bad. I mean, that's the understatement of this entire conversation. It, it's horrible. Uh, I can't think of anything worse. It's true of all us. So is it possible that it could get worse?

It does actually. And you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, that is like you were not just, it would be worse enough that of course, like you the Law of Christ, but you love to do it. That was your jam in your flesh. The flesh that you wanted to embrace, the selfishness that was who you are, apart from Christ, which the Bible tells us is the opposite of being circumcised brought into the family.

You were far away as far away as possible. You were so far out of the government that you were uncircumcised. That's who you were. You were dead. You were dead because of your transgressions, and then you were so far outside of the family of God, there was no hope for you. In your own self, there's nothing you could do to make a way.

There was nothing that you could do to write yourself. You were dead in your transgressions, uncircumcision of your flesh. Sit on that for a second, and you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven us all our transgressions.

So again, this is. Incredible. Not just that you would be forgiven, but that you'd be made alive in Christ. There's this falsity out there somewhere. Again, this is what religion teaches you, teaches us that Jesus came to make bad people good. I mean, that's really what the Pharisees were after in their own lives.

There was their promulgating a system in which what religion does is it's for good people and at best what it can do is make maybe some bad people. Good. But if you're too bad, it's not for you. It's too bad. It's unfortunate, but it's not your thing. It won't work. But what the scripture tells us, what these parables press us with is not that Jesus came to make bad people good, but he came to make dead people alive.

And so what we have here is a clear indication of that, that even in the midst of your, your horrible state, that that state, that it seemed hopeless, that here Jesus God, through Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven all of our transgressions. Then here's the, here's the amazing part as if like, we didn't understand that, and I think like you and Paul here saying like, this should be clear, but I'm gonna double down on this.

I'm gonna use some language that should be abundantly clear to you just how bad things were and then how much freedom you should feel, what your lightness, what the, the bounce in your steps should be like because you were once dead uncircumcised. Now you've been made alive and you've been having everything graciously forgiven in Christ.

Here, here's what it's like having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How? How good is that sentence? Christ in his death canceled out the. Certificate of debt. Again, something that was codified against us.

So other words, it was documented. These were not just, and they weren't just this little statement that said like, it's really bad for you. You owe something. There's something that's been heaped up against you. But they were decrees against us. They were hostile to us. They were literally the thing that was going to kill us for all and separate us from Christ.

That thing, that certificate, he has taken it. Out out of the way, having nailed it to the cross, having disarmed the rulers and authorities, he made public display of them having triumphed over them. So it's this incredible sense that not only has Christ. Taking the certificate, cast it aside, paid for it in full.

But then above and beyond that, he's disarmed the rulers and authorities. He's made a public display of them. He's triumphed over sin, death, and the devil in such a demonstrative and public way to show that he's the ruler of all the world. That he's the promise maker and he's the promise keeper, that he's just, and that he's justifier.

And so Paul says to us, then Christian. How ought you to live? How ought you to behave? Is this not the best news that you could possibly hear? So all of that, I think is literally just the smallest backdrop to leading us into this final parable, this escalation really, of course, the three parables in one about the prodigal son and.

I would admonish you to think on that. This little extra pause that we've had here I think is good because I need to at least to remember that this is what's leading us for Jesus to say, to start with a story that says A man had two sons. You know, after we've talked about sheep. We talked about coins and then he goes, and a man had two sons.

What a beautiful like beginning what? What incredible language, what brilliance, all of this to show us his true heart for us. And I think it's always worthwhile to stop and to pause for a second. And to consider that heart as we make ourselves ready to receive this final and amazing parable.

[00:35:13] Jesse Schwamb: So I hope that you will continue to hang out with us, that you yourself will not take my word for it or Tony's word for it, but you yourself, go to Luke 15 read.

It takes maybe. I dunno, 45 seconds to read all three of these and to spend some time thinking about what it is that Christ has done for us. That we're the lost sheep, we're the lost coin. We're also this lost son, son, daughter, that this was all of our stories. At some point, we can't escape the fact that this really is our biography and.

It hits close to home because we find that when we examine ourselves that we are the ones that were lost in our transgressions and dead. That we are the ones that were un circumcised, but God has made us alive together with Christ. I mean, read, read Colossians two and read Ephesians one, and what you're gonna find is we have every reason to rejoice, and these stories should compel us into.

A life of constant rejoicing for what Christ has done for us. That's the reason for every season. It's the reason for the Christian life, and certainly so much of what we find reflected in reform theology proper. So you know what to do. Come hang out with us on the Telegram chat, continue to process with us alongside of us in conversation with us, these incredible parables, because I do believe there's so much here.

We'll, we're never going to plumb the depths of these, and this is just our feeble attempt. To get us in the right place as we make that final hair point turn into this, that we slow down just a little bit and consider what great thing that Christ has done for us and what God, the Father and the Holy Spirit has wrought in our lives by way of this incredible salvation.

So you know what to do. Come back next week and we'll get after the parable. Of the prodigal. But until you do that, until we chat again and Tony rejoins us safe and strong, and Lord willing, as great as ever, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the Parable of the Lost Coin from Luke 15:8-10. They explore how this parable reveals God's passionate pursuit of His elect and the divine joy that erupts when they are found. Building on their previous discussion of the Lost Sheep, the brothers examine how Jesus uses this second parable to further emphasize God's sovereign grace in salvation. The conversation highlights the theological implications of God's ownership of His people even before their redemption, the diligent efforts He undertakes to find them, and the heavenly celebration that follows. This episode offers profound insights into God's relentless love and the true nature of divine joy in redemption.

The Parable of the Lost Coin reveals a profound theological truth about God's relationship to His elect. As Tony and Jesse discuss, this isn't a story about finding something new, but recovering something that already belongs to the owner. The woman in the parable doesn't rejoice because she discovered unexpected treasure; she rejoices because she recovered what was already hers. This illustrates the Reformed understanding that God's people have eternally belonged to Him. While justification occurs in time, there's a real sense in which God has been considering us as His people in eternity past. The parable therefore supports the doctrines of election and particular redemption - God is not creating conditions people can move into or out of, but is zealously reclaiming a specific people who are already His in His eternal decree. The searching, sweeping, and diligent pursuit represent not a general call, but an effectual calling that accomplishes its purpose.

One of the most striking aspects of this parable is the overwhelming joy that accompanies finding the lost coin. The brothers highlight that this joy isn't reluctant or begrudging, but enthusiastic and overflowing. The woman calls her friends and neighbors to celebrate with her - a seemingly excessive response to finding a coin, unless we understand the theological significance. This reveals that God takes genuine delight in the redemption of sinners, to the extent that Jesus describes it as causing joy "in the presence of the angels of God." As Jesse and Tony note, this challenges our perception that God might save us begrudgingly. Instead, the parable teaches us that God's "alien work" is wrath, while His delight is in mercy. This should profoundly impact how believers view their own salvation and should inspire a contagious joy that spreads to others - a joy that many Christians, by Tony's own admission, need to recover in their daily walk.

"Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love." - Jesse Schwamb

"The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace... The reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased, is because God has this real pleasure to pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire." - Jesse Schwamb

"These parables are calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently?" - Tony Arsenal

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found.

The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire.

Welcome to episode 472 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:00:57] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

[00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.

[00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: So there was this time, maybe actually more than one time, but at least this one time that we've been looking at where Jesus is hanging out and the religious incumbents, the Pharisees, they come to him and they say, you are a friend of sinners, and.

Instead of taking offense to this, Jesus turns this all around. Uses this as a label, appropriates it for himself and his glorious character. And we know this because he gives us this thrice repeated sense of what it means to see his heart, his volition, his passion, his love, his going after his people, and he does it.

Three little parables and we looked at one last time and we're coming up to round two of the same and similar, but also different and interesting. And so today we're looking at the parable of the lost coin or the Lost dma, or I suppose, whatever kind of currency you wanna insert in there. But once again, something's lost and we're gonna see how our savior comes to find it by way of explaining it.

In metaphor. So there's more things that are lost and more things to be found on this episode. That's how we do it. It's true. It's true. So that's how Jesus does it. So

[00:02:12] Tony Arsenal: yeah. So it should be how we do it.

[00:02:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I cut to like Montel Jordan now is the only thing going through my head. Tell Jordan.

Yeah. Isn't he the one that's like, this is how we do it, that song, this is

[00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: how we do it. I, I don't know who sings it. Apparently it's me right now. That was actually really good. That was fantastic.

[00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Hopefully never auto tuned. Not even once. I'm sure that'll make an appearance now and the rest, somebody

[00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: should take that and auto tune it for me.

[00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: That would be fantastic. Listen, it doesn't need it. That was perfect. That was right off the cuff, right off the top. It was beautiful. It was ous.

[00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes.

[00:02:51] Jesse Schwamb: I'm hoping that appearance,

[00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: before we jump into our, our favorite segment here in affirmations of Denials, I just wanted to take a second to, uh, thank all of our listeners.

Uh, we have the best listeners in the world. That's true, and we've also got a really great place to get together and chat about things. That's also true. Uh, we have a little telegram chat, which is just a little chat, um, program that run on your phone or in a browser. Really any device you have, you can go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood and join that, uh, little chat group.

And there's lots of stuff going on there. We don't need to get into all the details, but it's a friendly little place. Lots of good people, lots of good conversation. And just lots of good digital fellowship, if that's even a thing. I think it is. So please do join us there. It's a great place to discuss, uh, the episodes or what you're learning or what you'd like to learn.

There's all sorts of, uh, little nooks and crannies and things to do in there.

[00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: So if you're looking for a little df and you know that you are coming out, we won't get into details, but you definitely should. Take Tony's advice, please. You, you will not be disappointed. It, it's a fun, fun time together. True.

Just like you're about to have with us chatting it up and going through a little affirmations and denials. So, as usual, Tony, what are you, are you affirming with something or are you denying again, something? I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm ready.

[00:04:06] Tony Arsenal: Okay. Uh, it is, I thought that was going somewhere else.

Uh, I'm, I'm affirming something.

[00:04:13] Tony Arsenal: People are gonna get so sick of me doing like AI affirmations, but I, it's like I learned a new thing to do with AI every couple of weeks. I ran across an article the other day, uh, that I don't remember where the article was. I didn't save it, but I did read it. And one of the things that pointed out is that a lot of times you're not getting the most out of AI because you don't really know how to ask the questions.

True. One of the things it was was getting through is a lot of people will ask, they'll have a problem that they're encountering and they'll just ask AI like, how do I fix this problem? And a lot of times what that yields is like very superficial, basic, uh, generic advice or generic kind of, uh, directions for resolving a problem.

And the, I don't remember the exact phrasing, 'cause it was a little while ago since I read it, but it basically said something like, I'm encountering X problem. And despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to resolve it. And by using sort of these extra phrases. What it does is it sort of like pushes the AI to ask you questions about what you've already tried to do, and so it's gonna tailor its advice or its directions to your specific situation a little bit more.

So, for example, I was doing this today. We, um, we just had the time change, right? Stupidest thing in the world doesn't make any sense and my kids don't understand that the time has changed and we're now like three or four weeks past the, the time change and their, their schedule still have not adjusted.

So my son Augie, who is uh, like three and three quarters, uh, I don't know how many months it is. When do you stop? I don't even know. When you stop counting in months. He's three and a quarter, three quarters. And he will regularly wake up between four 30 and five 30. And when we really, what we really want is for him to be sleeping, uh, from uh, until like six or six 30 at the latest.

So he's like a full hour, sometimes two hours ahead of time, which then he wakes up, it's a small house. He's noisy 'cause he's a three and a half year old. So he wakes up the baby. The baby wakes up. My wife, and then we're all awake and then we're cranky and it's miserable. So I, I put that little prompt into, um, into Google Gemini, which is right now is my, um, AI of choice, but works very similar.

If you use something like chat, GPT or CLO or whatever, you know, grok, whatever AI tool you have access to, put that little prompt in. You know, something like since the time change, my son has been waking up at four 30 in the morning, despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to, uh, adjust his schedule.

And so it started asking me questions like, how much light is in the room? What time does he go to bed? How much does he nap? And it, so it's, it's pulling from the internet. This is why I like Google Geminis. It's actually pulling from the internet to identify like common, common. Related issues. And so it starts to probe and ask questions.

And by the time it was done, what it came out with was like a step-by-step two week plan. Basically like, do this tonight, do this tomorrow morning. Um, and it was able to identify what it believes is the problem. We'll see if it actually is, but the beauty now is now that I've got a plan that I've got in this ai, I can start, you know, tomorrow morning I'm gonna try to do what it said and I can tell.

The ai, how things went, and it can now adjust the plan based on whether or not, you know, this worked or didn't work. So it's a good way to sort of, um, push an ai, uh, chat bot to probe your situation a little bit more. So you could do this really for anything, right. You could do something like I'm having, I'm having trouble losing weight despite all efforts to the contrary.

Um, can you help me identify what the, you know, root problem is? So think about different ways that you can use this. It's a pretty cool way to sort of like, push the, the AI to get a little deeper into the specifics without like a lot of extra heavy lifting. I'm sure there's probably other ways you could drive it to do this, but this was just one clever way that I, that this article pointed out to accomplish this.

[00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a great exercise to have AI optimize itself. Yeah. By you turning your prompts around and asking it to ask you a number of questions, sufficient number, until it can provide an optimize answer for you. So lots, almost every bot has some kind of, you can have it analyze your prompts essentially, but some like copilot actually have a prompt agent, which will help you construct the prompt in an optimal way.

Yeah, and that again, is kind of question and answer. So I'm with you. I will often turn it around and say. Here's my goal. Ask me sufficient number of questions so that you can provide the right insight to accomplish said goal. Or like you're saying, if you can create this like, massive conversation that keeps all this history.

So I, I've heard of people using this for their exercise or running plans. Famously, somebody a, a, um, journalist, the Wall Street Journal, use it, train for a marathon. You can almost have it do anything for you. Of course, you want to test all of that and interact with it reasonably and ably, right? At the same time, what it does best is respond to like natural language interaction.

And so by turning it around and basically saying, help me help you do the best job possible, providing the information, it's like the weirdest way of querying stuff because we're so used to providing explicit direction ourselves, right? So to turn it around, it's kind of a new experience, but it's super fun, really interesting, really effective.

[00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: And it because you are allowing, in a certain sense, you're sort of asking the AI to drive the conversation. This, this particular prompt, I know the article I read went into details about why this prompt is powerful and the reason this prompt is powerful is not because of anything the AI's doing necessarily, right.

It's because you're basically telling the AI. To find what you've missed. And so it's asking you questions. Like if I was to sit down and go like, all right, what are all the things that's wrong, that's causing my son to be awake? Like obviously I didn't figure it out on my own, so it's asking me what I've already tried and what it found out.

And then of course when it tells me what it is, it's like the most obvious thing when it figures out what it is. It's identifying something that I already haven't identified because I've told it. I've already tried everything I can think of, and so it's prompting me to try to figure out what it is that I haven't thought of.

So those are, like I said, there's lots of ways to sort of get the ais to do that exercise. Um, it's not, it's not just about prompt engineering, although that there's a lot of science now and a lot of like. Specifics on how you do prompt engineering, um, you know, like building a persona for the ai. Like there's all sorts of things you can do and you can add that, like, I could have said something like, um.

Uh, you are a pediatric sleep expert, right? And when you tell it that what it's gonna do is it's gonna start to use more technical language, it's gonna, it's gonna speak to you back as though it's a, and this, this is where AI can get a little bit dangerous and really downright scary in some instances.

But with that particular prompt, it's gonna start to speak back to you as though it was a clinician of some sort, diagnosing a medical situation, which again. That is definitely not something I would ever endorse. Like, don't let an AI be your doctor. That's just not, like WebMD was already scary enough when you were just telling you what your symptoms were and it was just cross checking it.

Um, but you could do something like, and I use these kinds of prompts for our show notes where I'm like, you're an expert at SEO, like at um, podcast show notes. Utilizing SEO search terms, like that's part of the prompt that I use when I use, um, in, in this case, I use notion to generate most of our show notes.

Um, it, it starts to change the way that it looks at things and the way that it, I, it responds to you based on different prompts. So I think it, it's a little bit scary, uh, AI. Can be a strange, strange place. And there's some, they're doing some research that is a little bit frightening. They did a study and actually, like, they, they basically like unlocked an AI and gave it access to a pretend company with emails and stuff and said that a particular employee was gonna shut out, was gonna delete the ai.

And the first thing it did was try to like blackmail the employee with like a risk, like a scandalous email. It had. Then after that they, they engineered a scenario where the AI actually had the ability to kill the employee. And despite like explicit instructions not to do anything illegal, it still tried to kill the employee.

So there's some scary things that are coming up if we're not, you know, if, if the science is not able to get that under control. But right now it's just a lot of fun. Like it's, we're, we're probably not at the point where it's dangerous yet and hopefully. Hopefully it won't get to that point, but we'll see.

We'll see. That got dark real fast, fast, fast. Jesse, you gotta get this. And that was an affirmation. I guess I'm affirming killer murder ais that are gonna kill us all, but uh, we're gonna have fun with it until they do at least.

[00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: Thanks for not making that deny against. 'cause I can only imagine the direction that one to taken.

[00:12:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. At least when the AI hears this, it's gonna know that I'm on its side, so, oh, for sure. I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. So as do Iye.

[00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: But Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today to get me out of this pit here?

[00:13:09] Jesse Schwamb: So, lemme start with a question. Do you have a favorite Christmas hymn? And if so, what is it?

[00:13:16] Tony Arsenal: Ooh, that's a tough one. Um, I think I've always been really partial to Oh, holy Night. But, uh, there's, there's not anything that really jumps to mind my, as I've become older and crankier and more Scottish in spirit, I just, Christmas hymns just aren't as. If they're not as prominent in my mind, but oh, holy night or come coming, Emanuel is probably a really good one too.

[00:13:38] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. Those are the, those are like the top in the top three for me. Yeah. So I think

[00:13:42] Tony Arsenal: I know where you're going based on the question.

[00:13:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're very much the same. So, well maybe, so I am affirming with, but it's that time of year and people you, you know and love and maybe yourself, you're gonna listen to Christian music and.

That's okay. I put no shade on that, especially because we're talking about the incarnation, celebrate the incarnation. But of course, I think the best version of that is some of these really lovely hymns because they could be sung and worshiped through all year round. We just choose them because they fit in with the calendar particularly well here, and sometimes they're included, their lyrics included in Hallmark cards and, and your local.

Cool. Coles. So while that's happening, why not embrace it? But here's my information is why not go with some different versions. I love the hymn as you just said. Oh, come will come Emmanuel. And so I'm gonna give people three versions of it to listen to Now to make my list of this kind of repertoire. The song's gotta maintain that traditional melody.

I think to a strong degree, it's gotta be rich and deep and dark, especially Ko Emmanuel. But it's gotta have something in it that's a little bit nuanced. Different creative arrangements, musicality. So let me give two brand new ones that you may not have heard versions and one old one. So the old one is by, these are all Ko Emanuel.

So if at some point during this you're like, what song is he talking about? It's Ko. Emmanuel. It's just three times. Th we're keeping it th Rice tonight. So the first is by band called for today. That's gonna be a, a little bit harder if you want something that, uh, gets you kind of pumped up in the midst of this redemption.

That's gonna be the version. And then there are two brand new ones. One is by skillet, which is just been making music forever, but the piano melody they bring into this and they do a little something nuanced with the chorus that doesn't pull away too much. From the original, but just gives it a little extra like Tastiness.

Yeah. Skill. Great version. And then another one that just came out yesterday. My yesterday, not your yesterday. So actually it doesn't even matter at this point. It's already out is by descriptor. And this would be like the most chill version that is a hardcore band by, I would say tradition, but in this case, their version is very chill.

All of them I find are just deeply worshipful. Yeah. And these, the music is very full of impact, but of course the lyrics are glorious. I really love this, this crying out to God for the Savior. This. You know, just, it's really the, the plea that we should have now, which is, you know, maranatha like Lord Jesus, come.

And so in some ways we're, we're celebrating that initial plea and cry for redemption as it has been applied onto us by the Holy Spirit. And we're also saying, you know, come and fulfill your kingdom, Lord, come and bring the full promise, which is here, but not yet. So I like all three of these. So for today.

Skillet descriptor, which sounds like we're playing like a weird word game when you put those all together. It does, but they're all great bands and their versions I think are, are worthy. So the larger affirmation, I suppose, is like, go out this season and find different versions, like mix it up a little bit.

Because it's good to hear this music somewhat afresh, and so I think by coming to it with different versions of it, you'll get a little bit of that sense. It'll make maybe what is, maybe if it's felt rote or mundane or just trivial, like you're saying, kind of revive some of these pieces in our hearts so we can, we, we can really worship through them.

We're redeeming them even as they're meant to be expressions of the ultimate redemption.

[00:16:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, um, I heard the skillet version and, uh, you know, you know me like I'm not a huge fan of harder music. Yeah. But that, that song Slaps man, it's, yes,

[00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: it does. It's

[00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: good. And Al I mean, it, it also ignited this weird firestorm of craziness online.

I don't know if you heard anything about this, but Yes, it was, it was, there was like the people who absolutely love it and will. Fight you if you don't. Yes. And then there was like the people who think it's straight from the devil because of somehow demonic rhythms, whatever that means. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the heavier music, but there is something about that sort of, uh.

I don't know. Is skill, would that be considered like metal at all?

[00:17:38] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's a loaded question. Probably.

[00:17:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So like I found, uh, this is, we're gonna go down to Rabbit Trail here. Let's do it. Here we go. I found a version of Africa by Toto that was labeled as metal on YouTube. So I don't know whether it actually is, and this, this version of skill, it strikes me as very similar, where it's, ah, uh, it, it's like, um.

The harmonies are slightly different in terms of like how they resonate than Okay. Other harmonies. Like I get

[00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: that

[00:18:06] Tony Arsenal: there's a certain, you know, like when you think about like Western music, there's certain right, there's certain harmonies when, you know, think about like piano chords are framed and my understanding at least this could be way off, and I'm sure you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, is that um, metal music, heavy metal music uses slightly different.

Chord formations that it almost leaves you feeling a little unresolved. Yes, but not quite unresolved. Like it's just, it's, it's more the harmonics are different, so that's fair. Skillet. This skillet song is so good, and I think you're right. It, it retains the sort of like. The same basic melody, the same, the same basic harmonies, actually.

Right. And it's, it's almost like the harmonies are just close enough to being put into a different key with the harmonies. Yes,

[00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: that's true

[00:18:53] Tony Arsenal: than then. Uh, but not quite actually going into another key. So like, sometimes you'll see online, you'll find YouTube videos where they play like pop songs, but they've changed the, the.

Chords a little bit. So now it's in a minor key. It's almost like it's there. It's like one more little note shift and it would be there. Um, and then there's some interesting, uh, like repetition and almost some like anal singing going on, that it's very good. Even if you don't like heavier music. Like, like I don't, um, go listen to it and I think you'll find yourself like hitting repeat a couple times.

It was very, very good.

[00:19:25] Jesse Schwamb: That's a good way of saying it. A lot of times that style is a little bit dissonant, if that's what you mean in the court. Yeah. Formation. So it gives you this unsettledness, this almost unresolvedness, and that's in there. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, actually, if you listen to that version from Skillet, you'll probably listen to most of it.

You'll get about two thirds of the way through it and probably be saying, what are those guys talking about? It's the breakdown. Where it amps up. But before that, I think anybody could listen to it and just enjoy it. It's a really beautiful, almost haunting piano melody. They bring into the intro in that, in the interlude.

It's very lovely. So it gives you that sense. Again, I love this kind of music because there's almost something, there is something in this song that's longing for something that is wanting and yet left, unresolved and unfulfilled until the savior comes. There's almost a lament in it, so to speak, especially with like the way it's orchestrated.

So I love that this hymn is like deep and rich in that way. It's, that's fine. Like if you want to sing deck the Holes, that's totally fine. This is just, I think, better and rich and deeper and more interesting because it does speak to this life of looking for and waiting for anticipating the advent of the savior.

So to get me get put back in that place by music, I think is like a net gain this time of year. It's good to have that perspective. I'm, I'm glad you've heard it. We should just open that debate up whether or not we come hang out in the telegram chat. We'll put it in that debate. Is skillet hardcore or metal?

We'll just leave it there 'cause I have my opinions, but I'm, well, I'm sure everybody else does.

[00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: I don't even know what those words mean, Jesse. Everything is hardcore in metal compared to what I normally listen to. I don't even listen to music anymore usually, so I, I mean, I'm like mostly all podcasts all the time.

Anytime I have time, I don't have a ton of time to listen to. Um, audio stuff, but

[00:21:06] Jesse Schwamb: that's totally fair. Well now everybody now join us though.

[00:21:08] Tony Arsenal: Educate me

[00:21:09] Jesse Schwamb: now. Everybody can properly use, IM prompt whatever AI of their choice, and they can listen to at least three different versions of al comical manual. And then they can tell us which one do you like the best?

Or maybe you have your own version. That's what she was saying. What's your favorite Christmas in?

[00:21:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And

[00:21:24] Jesse Schwamb: what version of it do you like? I mean, it'll be like.

[00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: It'll be like, despite my best efforts, I've been un unable to understand what hardcore and medical is. Please help me understand.

[00:21:37] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, we're gonna have some, some fun with this at some point.

We'll have to get into the whole debate, though. I know you and I have talked about it before. We'll put it before the brothers and sisters about a Christmas Carol and what version everybody else likes. That's also seems like, aside from the, the whole eternal debate, which I'm not sure is really serious about whether or not diehard is a Christmas movie, this idea of like, which version of the Christmas Carol do you subscribe to?

Yeah. Which one would you watch if you can only watch one? Which one will you watch? That's, we'll have to save that for another time.

[00:22:06] Tony Arsenal: We'll save it for another time. And we get a little closer to midwinter. No reason we just can't

[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: do it right now because we gotta get to Luke 15.

[00:22:12] Tony Arsenal: We do.

[00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've already been in this place of looking at Jesus' response to the Pharisees when they say to him, listen, this man receives sinners and eats with them.

And Jesus is basically like, yeah, that's right. And let me tell you three times what the heart of God is like and what my mission in serving him is like, and what I desire to come to do for my children. And so we spoke in the last conversation about the parable lost sheep. Go check that out. Some are saying, I mean, I'm not saying this, but some are saying in the internet, it's the definitive.

Congratulation of that parable. I'm, I'm happy to take that if that's true. Um, but we wanna go on to this parable of the lost coin. So let me read, it's just a couple of verses and you're gonna hear in the text that you're going to understand right away. This is being linked because it starts with or, so this is Jesus speaking and this is Luke 15, chapter 15, starting in verse eight.

Jesus says, or a what woman? She has 10 D drachmas and loses. One drachma does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it. And when she has found it, she calls together her friend and her neighbors saying, rejoice with me for I found the D Drachma, which I lost in the same way I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

[00:23:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. On one level, this is, uh, again, it's not all that complicated of a scenario, right? And we have to kind of go back and relo through some of the stuff we talked about last week because this is a continuation of, you know, when we first talked about the Matthew 13 parables, we commented on like.

Christ was coming back to the same themes, right? And in some ways, repeating the parable. This is even stronger than that. It's not just that Christ is teaching the same thing across multiple parables. The sense here, at least the sense I get when I read this parable, the lost sheep, and then the prodigal, um, sun parable or, or the next parable here, um, is actually that Christ is just sort of like hammering home the one point he's making to the tax collectors and or to the tax collectors or to the scribes who are complaining about the fact that Christ was eating with sinners.

He's just hammering this point home, right? So it's not, it's not to try to add. A lot of nuance to the point. It's not to try to add a, a shade of meaning. Um. You know, we talked a lot about how parables, um, Christ tells parables in part to condemn the listeners who will not receive him, right? That's right.

This is one of those situations where it's not, it's not hiding the meaning of the parable from them. The meaning is so obvious that you couldn't miss it, and he, he appeals, we talked about in the first, in the first part of this, he actually appeals to like what the ordinary response would be. Right? What man of you having a hundred sheep if he loses one, does not.

Go and leave the 99. Like it's a scenario that anyone who goes, well, like, I wouldn't do that is, looks like an idiot. Like, that's, that's the point of the why. He phrases it. And so then you're right when he, when he begins with this, he says, or what woman having 10 silver coins if she loses one, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until he, till she finds it.

And of course, the, the, the emphasis again is like no one in their right mind would not do this. And I think like we think about a coin and like that's the smallest denomination of money that we have. Like, I wouldn't, like if I lost a, if I had 10 silver coin, 10 coins and I lost one of them, the most that that could be is what?

50 cents? Like the, like if I had a 50 cent piece or a silver dollar, I guess, like I could lose a dollar. We're not really talking about coins the way we think of coins, right? We're talking about, um. Um, you know, like denominations of money that are substantial in that timeframe. Like it, there was, there were small coins, but a silver coin would be a substantial amount of money to lose.

So we are not talking about a situation where this is, uh, a trivial kind of thing. She's not looking for, you know, I've, I've heard this parable sort of like unpacked where like, it's almost like a miserly seeking for like this lost coin. Interesting. It's not about, it's not about like. Penny pinching here, right?

She's not trying to find a tiny penny that isn't worth anything that's built into the parable, right? It's a silver coin. It's not just any coin. It's a silver coin. So she's, she's looking for this coin, um, because it is a significant amount of money and because she's lost it, she's lost something of her, of her overall wealth.

Like there's a real loss. Two, this that needs to be felt before he can really move on with the parable. It's not just like some small piece of property, like there's a

[00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: right. I

[00:26:57] Tony Arsenal: don't know if you've ever lost a large amount of money, but I remember one time I was in, um, a. I was like, almost outta high school, and I had taken some money out of, um, out of the bank, some cash to make a purchase.

I think I was purchasing a laptop and I don't know why I, I don't, maybe I didn't have a credit card or I didn't have a debit card, but I was purchasing a laptop with cash. Right. And back then, like laptops, like this was not a super expensive laptop, but. It was a substantial amount of cash and I misplaced it and it was like, oh no, like, where is it?

And like, I went crazy trying to find it. This is the situation. She's lost a substantial amount of money. Um, this parable, unlike the last one, doesn't give you a relative amount of how many she has. Otherwise. She's just lost a significant amount of money. So she takes all these different steps to try to find it.

[00:27:44] Tony Arsenal: We have to feel that loss before we really can grasp what the parable is trying to teach us.

[00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: I like that, so I'm glad you brought that up because I ended up going down a rabbit hole with this whole coined situation.

[00:27:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, we're about to, Matt Whitman some of this, aren't we?

[00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, I think so. But mainly because, and this is not really my own ideas here, there's, there's a lot I was able to kind of just read and kind.

Throw, throw something around this because I think you're absolutely right that Jesus is bringing an ES escalation here and it's almost like a little bit easier for us to understand the whole sheep thing. I think the context of the lost coin, like you're already saying, is a little bit less familiar to us, and so I got into this.

Rabbit hole over the question, why would this woman have 10 silver coins? I really got stuck on like, so why does she have these? And Jesus specific about that he's giving a particular context. Presumably those within his hearing in earshot understood this context far better than I did. So what I was surprised to see is that a lot of commentators you probably run into this, have stated or I guess promulgated this idea that the woman is young and unmarried and the 10 silver coins could.

Could represent a dowry. So in some way here too, like it's not just a lot of money, it's possible that this was her saving up and it was a witness to her availability for marriage.

[00:28:57] Jesse Schwamb: So e either way, if that's true or not, Jesus is really emphasizing to us there's significant and severe loss here. And so just like you said, it would be a fool who would just like say, oh, well that's too bad.

The coin is probably in here somewhere, but eh, I'm just gonna go about my normal business. Yeah. And forsake it. Like, let's, let's not worry about it. So. The emphasis then on this one is not so much like the leaving behind presumably can keep the remaining nine coins somewhere safe if you had them. But this effort and this diligence to, to go after and find this lost one.

So again, we know it's all about finding what was lost, but this kind of momentum that Jesus is bringing to this, like the severity of this by saying there was this woman, and of course like here we find that part of this parable isn't just in the, the kingdom of God's like this, like we were talking about before.

It's more than that because there's this expression of, again, the situation combined with these active verbs. I think we talked about last time that Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love.

Like in the first case, the shepherd brought his sheep home on his shoulders rather than leave it in the wilderness. And then here. The woman does like everything. She lights the candle, she sweeps the house. She basically turns the thing, the place upside down, searching diligently and spared no pains with this until she found her lost money.

And before we get into the whole rejoicing thing, it just strikes me that, you know, in the same way, I think what we have here is Christ affirming that he didn't spare himself. He's not gonna spare himself. When he undertakes to save sinners, he does all the things. He endures the cross scor in shame. He lays down his life for his friends.

There's no greater love than that. It cannot be shown, and so Christ's love is deep and mighty. It's like this woman doing all the things, tearing the place apart to ensure that that which she knew she had misplaced comes back to her. That the full value of everything that she knows is hers. Is safe and secure in her possession and so does the Lord Jesus rejoice the safe sinners in the same way.

And that's where this is incredibly powerful. It's not just, Hey, let me just say it to you one more time. There is a reemphasis here, but I like where you're going, this re-escalation. I think the first question is, why do the woman have this money? What purpose is it serving? And I think if we can at least try to appreciate some of that, then we see again how Jesus is going after that, which is that he, he wants to save the sinner.

He wants to save the soul. And all of the pleasure, then all of the rejoicing comes because, and, and as a result of that context.

[00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:23] Tony Arsenal: The other thing, um, maybe, and, and I hope I'm not overreading again, we've, we've talked about the dangers of overreading, the parables, but I think there's a, and we'll, we'll come to this too when we get into the, um, prodigal son.

Um, there is this sense, I think in some theological traditions that. God is sort of like claiming a people who were not his own. Right. And one of the things that I love about the reform tradition, and, and I love it because this is the picture the Bible teaches, is the emphasis on the fact that God's people have been God's people.

As long as God has been pondering and con like contemplating them. So like we deny eternal justification, right? Justification happens in time and there's a real change in our status, in in time when, when the spirit applies, the benefits that Christ has purchased for us in redemption, right? But there's also a very real sense that God has been looking and considering us as his people in eternity past.

Like that's always. That's the nature of the Pactum salutes, the, you know, covenant of redemption election. The idea that like God is not saving a nameless, faceless people. He's not creating conditions that people can either move themselves into or take themselves out of. He has a concrete people. Who he is saving, who he has chosen.

He, he, you know, prior to our birth, he will redeem us. He now, he has redeemed us and he will preserve us in all of these parables, whether it's the sheep, the coin, or as we'll get to the prodigal sun next week or, or whenever. Um. It's not that God is discovering something new that he didn't have, or it's not that the woman is discovering a coin, right?

There's nothing more, uh, I think nothing more like sort of, uh, spontaneously delightful than like when you like buy a, like a jacket at the thrift store. Like you go to Salvation Army and you buy a jacket, you get home, you reach in the pocket and there's like a $10 bill and you're like, oh man, that's so, so great.

Or like, you find a, you find a. A $10 bill on the ground, or you find a quarter on the ground, right? Yeah. Or you find your own money. Well, and that that's, there's a different kind of joy, right? That's the point, is like, there's a delight that comes with finding something. And again, like we have to be careful about like, like not stealing, right?

But there's a different kind of joy that comes with like finding something that was not yours that now becomes yours. We talked about that with parables a couple weeks ago, right? There's a guy who finds it, he's, he's searching for pearls. He finds a pearl, and so he goes after he sells everything he has and he claims that pearl, but that wasn't his before the delight was in sort of finding something new.

These parables. The delight is in reclaiming and refining something that was yours that was once lost. Right? That's a different thing. And it paints a picture, a different picture of God than the other parables where, you know, the man kind of stumbles on treasure in a field or he finds a pearl that he was searching for, but it wasn't his pearl.

This is different. This is teaching us that God is, is zealous and jealous to reclaim that which was his, which was lost. Yes. Right. So, you know, we can get, we can, maybe we will next week, maybe we will dig into like super laps area versus infra laps. AIRism probably not, I don't necessarily wanna have that conversation.

But there is a reality in the Bible where God has a chosen people and they are his people, even before he redeems them.

[00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.

[00:34:53] Tony Arsenal: These parables all emphasize that in a different way and part of what he's, part of what he's ribbing at with the Pharisees and the, and the scribes, and this is common across all of Christ's teaching in his interactions and we get into true Israel with, with Paul, I mean this is the consistent testimony of the New Testament, is that the people who thought they were God's people.

The, the Jewish leaders, especially the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the, the sort of elites of, uh, first century Jewish believers, they really were convinced that they were God's people. And those dirty gentiles out there, they, they're not, and even in certain sense, like even the Jewish people out in the country who don't even, you know, they don't know the scriptures that like, even those people were maybe barely God's people.

Christ is coming in here and he is going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like you're asking me. You're surprised that I receive sinners and e with them. Well, I'm coming to claim that which is mine, which was lost, and the right response to that is not to turn your nose up at it. The right response is to rejoice with me that I have found my sheep that was lost, that I have reclaimed my coin that was lost.

And as we'll see later on, like he really needles them at the end of the, the, uh, parable of the prodigal son. This is something I, I have to be like intentional in my own life because I think sometimes we hear conversion stories and we have this sort of, I, I guess like, we'll call it like the, the Jonah I heresy, I dunno, we won't call it heresy, but like the, the, the like Jonah impulse that we all have to be really thankful for God's mercy in our life.

But sort of question whether God is. Merciful or even be a little bit upset when it seems that God is being merciful to those sinners over there. We have to really like, use these parables in our own lives to pound that out of our system because it's, it's ungodly and it's not what God is, is calling us.

And these parables really speak against that

[00:36:52] Jesse Schwamb: and all of us speak in. In that lost state, but that doesn't, I think like you're saying, mean that we are not God's already. That if he has established that from a trinity past, then we'd expect what others have said about God as the hound of heaven to be true.

And that is he comes and he chases down his own. What's interesting to me is exactly what you've said. We often recognize when we do this in reverse and we look at the parable of the lost son, all of these elements, how the father comes after him, how there's a cha singer coming to himself. There's this grand act of repentance.

I would argue all of that is in all of these parables. Not, not to a lesser extent, just to a different extent, but it's all there. So in terms of like couching this, and I think what we might use is like traditionally reformed language. And I, I don't want to say I'm overeating this, I hope I'm not at that same risk, but we see some of this like toll depravity and like the sinner is lost, unable to move forward, right?

There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. There is. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found.

The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. Yeah, it's in a slightly different way, but I think that's what we're meant to like take away from this. We're meant to lean into that a bit.

[00:38:12] Jesse Schwamb: And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure.

Jesus has this real pleasure. The Holy Spirit has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. You know, it was Jesus, literally his food and drink like not to be too trite, but like his jam went upon the earth to finish the work, which he came to do. And there are many times when he says he ammi of being constrained in the spirit until this was accomplished.

And it's still his delight to show mercy like you're saying He is. And even Jonah recognizes that, right. He said like, I knew you were going to be a merciful God. And so he's far more willing to save sinners than sinners are to be saved. But that is the gospel level voice, isn't it? Because we can come kicking and screaming, but in God's great mercy, not because of works and unrighteousness, but because of his great mercy, he comes and he tears everything apart to rescue and to save those whom he's called to himself.

[00:39:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I love that old, um, Puritan phrase that wrath is God's alien work. And we, you know, like you gotta be careful when you start to talk that way. And the Puritans were definitely careful about everything. I mean, they were very specific when they spoke, but. When we talk about God's alien work and wrath being God's alien work, what we're saying is not, not that like somehow wrath is external to God.

Like that's not what we're getting at of Right. But when you look at scripture and, and here's something that I think, um. I, I don't know how I wanna say this. Like, I think we read that the road is narrow and the the, um, you know, few are those who find it. I think we read that and we somehow think like, yeah, God, God, like, really loves that.

Not a lot of people are saved. And I, I actually think that like, when we look at it, um, and, and again, like we have to be careful 'cause God, God. God decreed that which he is delighted by, and also that which glorifies him the most. Right? Right. But the picture that we get in scripture, and we have to take this seriously with all of the caveats that it's accommodated, it's anthropopathism that, you know, all of, all of the stuff we've talked about.

We did a whole series on systematic theology. We did like six episodes on Divine Simplicity and immutability. Like we we're, we're right in line with the historic tradition on that. All of those caveats, uh, all of those caveats in place, the Bible pic paints a picture of God such that he grieves over.

Those who are lost. Right? Right. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. That's right. He, he, he seeks after the lost and he rejoices when he finds them. Right. He's, his, his Holy Spirit is grieved when we disobey him, his, his anger is kindled even towards his people in a paternal sense. Right. He disciplines us the way an angry father who loves us, would discipline us when we disobey him.

That is a real, that's a real thing. What exactly that means, how we can apply that to God is a very complicated conversation. And maybe sometimes it's more complicated than we, like, we make it more complicated than it needs to be for sure. Um, we wanna be careful to preserve God's changeness, his immutability, his simplicity, all of those things.

But at the end of the day, at. God grieves over lost sinners, and he rejoices when they come back. He rejoices when they return to him. Just as the shepherd who finds his lost sheep puts that sheep on his shoulders, right? That's not just because that's an easy way to carry a sheep, right? It's also like this picture of this loving.

Intimate situation where God pulls us onto himself and he, he wraps literally like wraps us around himself. Like there are times when, um. You know, I have a toddler and there are times where I have to carry that toddler, and it's, it's a fight, right? And I don't really enjoy doing it. He's squirming, he's fighting.

Then there are times where he needs me to hold him tight, and he, he snuggles in. When he falls down and hurts his leg, the first thing he does is he runs and he jumps on me, and he wants to be held tight, and there's a f there's a fatherly embrace there that not only brings comfort to my son. But it brings great joy to me to be able to comfort him that that dynamic in a, uh, a infinitely greater sense is at play here in the lost sheep.

And then there's this rejoicing. It's not just rejoicing that God is rejoicing, it's the angels that are rejoicing.

[00:42:43] Tony Arsenal: It's the, it's other Christians. It's the great cloud of witnesses that are rejoicing when Aah sinner is returned to God. All of God's kingdom and everything that that includes, all of that is involved in this rejoicing.

That's why I think like in the first parable, in the parable of the lost sheep, it's joy in heaven. Right? It's sort of general joy in heaven. It's not specific. Then this one is even more specific. It's not just general joy in heaven. It's the angels of God. That's right. That are rejoicing. And then I think what we're gonna find, and we'll we'll tease this out when we get to the next par, well the figure in the prodigal son that is rejoicing.

The one that is leading the rejoicing, the chief rejoice is the one who's the standin for God in that parable.

[00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right, exactly right. So,

[00:43:27] Tony Arsenal: so we have to, we have to both recognize that there's a true grief. A true sorrow that is appropriate to speak of God, um, as having when a sinner is lost. And there's also an equally appropriate way to speak about God rejoicing and being pleased and delighted when a sinner returns to him.

[00:43:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's the real payoff of this whole parable. I think, uh, maybe all three of them altogether, is that it is shocking how good the gospel is, which we're always saying, yeah, but I'm really always being moved, especially these last couple weeks with what Jesus is saying about how good, how truly unbelievable the gospel is.

And again, it draws us to the. Old Testament scriptures when even the Israel saying, who is like this? Who is like our God? So what's remarkable about this is that there's an infinite willingness on God's part to receive sinners.

[00:44:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:44:23] Jesse Schwamb: And however wicked a man may have been, and the day that he really turns from his wickedness and comes to God by Christ, God is well pleased and all of heaven with him, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, like you said, but God has pleasure and true repentance.

If all of that's true, then like day to day, here's what I, I think this means for us.

[00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: Is when we come to Christ for mercy and love and help and whatever anguish and perplexity and simpleness that we all have, and we all have it, we are going with the flow. If his own deepest wishes, we're not going against them.

And so this means that God has for us when we partake in the toning work of Christ, coming to Christ for forgiveness, communing with him despite our sinfulness, that we are laying hold of Christ's own deepest longing and joy.

[00:45:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And

[00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus is comforted when we draw near the riches of his atoning work because as his body, even his own body in a way is being healed in this process.

And so we, along with it, that I think is the payoff here. That's what's just so remarkable is that not only, like you're saying, is all heaven kind of paying attention to this. Like they're cognizant of it. It's something worthy of their attention and their energies and their rejoicing. But again, it's showing that God is doing all of this work and so he keeps calling us and calling us and calling us over and over again and just like you said, the elect sinner, those estr belongs to God and his eternal purpose.

Even that by itself, we could just say full stop. Shut it down end the podcast. Yeah. That's just worthy to, to rejoice and, and ponder. But this is how strong I think we see like per election in particular, redemption in these passages. Christ died for his chief specifically crisis going after the lost coin, which already belongs to him.

So like you were saying, Tony, when you know, or maybe you don't know, but you've misplaced some kind of money and you put your hand in that pocket of that winter coat for the first time that season and out comes the piece of paper, that's whatever, 20 or whatever, you rejoice in that, right. Right. It's like this was mine.

I knew it was somewhere, it belonged to me, except that what's even better here is this woman tears her whole place apart to go after this one coin that she knows is hers and yet has been lost. I don't know what more it is to be said. I just cannot under emphasize. Or overemphasize how great God's love is in this like amazing condescension, so that when Jesus describes himself as being gentle and lowly or gentle and humble or gentle and humiliated, that I, I think as we understand the biblical text, it's not necessarily just that he's saying, well, I'm, I'm displaying.

Meekness power under control. When he says he's humble, he means put in this incredibly lowly state. Yeah. That the rescue mission, like you're saying, involves not just like, Hey, she lemme call you back. Hey, come over here, says uh. He goes and he picks it up. It's the ultimate rescue, picks it up and takes it back by his own volition, sacrificing everything or to do that and so does this woman in this particular instance, and it should lead us.

I think back to there's this virtuous cycle of seeing this, experiencing this. Being compelled by the law of Christ, as Paul says, by the power of the Holy Spirit and being regenerated and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping. Because in the midst of that repentance and that beautifulness recognizing, as Isaiah says, all of these idols that we set up, that we run to, the one thing they cannot do for us is they cannot deal with sin.

They cannot bring cleanliness and righteousness through confession of sin. They cannot do that. So Christ is saying, come to the one you who are needy, you who have no money. To use another metaphor in the Bible, come and buy. And in doing so, we're saying, Christ, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And when he says, come, come, I, I've, I have already run.

After you come and be restored, come and be renewed. That which was lost my child. You have been found and I have rescued you.

[00:48:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these, these are so, um, these two parables are so. Comfortable. Like, right, like they are there, there are certain passages of scripture that you can just like put on like a big fuzzy warm bathrobe on like sn a cold morning, a snuggy.

Yeah. I don't know if I want to go that far, but spirits are snuggy and, and these two are like that, right? Like, I know there are times where I feel like Christ redeemed me sort of begrudgingly, right? Mm-hmm. I think we have, we have this, um, concept in our mind of. Sort of the suffering servant, you know, like he's kind of like, ah, if I have to do it, I will.

Right, right. And, and like, I think we, we would, if, if we were the ones who were, were being tasked to redeem something, we might do it. You know, we might do it and we. We might feel a certain sense of satisfaction about it, but I can tell you that if I had a hundred sheep and I had lost one, I would not lay it on my shoulder rejoicing.

I would lay it on my shoulder. Frustrated and glad that I finally found it, but like. Right. Right. That's not what Christ did. That's right. Christ lays us on his shoulders rejoicing. Right. I know. Like when you lose something, it's frustrating and it's not just the loss of it that's frustrating. It's the time you have to take to find it.

And sometimes like, yeah, you're happy that you found it, but you're like, man, it would've just been nice if I hadn't lost this in

[00:49:36] Jesse Schwamb: the That's right.

[00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This woman, there's none of that. There's no, um, there's no regret. There's no. Uh, there's no begrudging this to it. There's nothing. It's just rejoicing. She's so happy.

And it's funny, I can imagine, uh, maybe, maybe this is my own, uh, lack of sanctification here. I can imagine being that friend that's like, I gotta come over 'cause you found your coin, right? Like, I can be, I could imagine me that person, but Right. But honestly, like. This is a, this is a situation where she's so overcome with joy.

She just has to tell people about it. Yeah. She has to share it with people. It, it reminds me, and I've seen this, I've seen this, um, connection made in the past certainly isn't new to me. I don't, I don't have any specific sorts to say, but like the woman at the well, right. She gets this amazing redemption.

She gets this, this Messiah right in front of her. She leaves her buckets at the well, and she goes into a town of people who probably hate her, who think she's just the worst scum of society and she doesn't care. She goes into town to tell everybody about the fact that the Messiah has come, right? And they're so like stunned by the fact that she's doing it.

Like they come to see what it is like that's what we need to be like. So there's. There's an element here of not only the rejoicing of God, and again, like, I guess I'm surprised because I've, I've, I've never sort of really read this. Part, I've never read this into it too much or I've never like really pulled this out, but it, now that I'm gonna say it, it just seems logical, like not only is God rejoicing in this, but again, it should be calling us to rejoice, right?

Christ is. Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently? Like when's the last time? And I, I don't want to, this is, this can be a lot of loss. So again, like. God is not calling every single person to stand up on their lunch table at work, or, I don't know if God's calling anybody to stand up on the lunch table at work.

Right. To like, like scream about how happy they are that they're sick, happy, happy. But like, when's the last time you were so overcome with joy that in the right opportunity, it just over, like it just overcame you and you had to share it. I don't rem. Putting myself bare here, like I don't remember the last time that happened.

I share my faith with people, like my coworkers know that I'm a Christian and, um, my, they know that like, there are gonna be times where like I will bring biblical ethics and biblical concepts into my work. Like I regularly use bible examples to illustrate a principle I'm trying to teach my employees or, or I will regularly sort of.

In a meeting where there's some question about what the right, not just like the correct thing to do, but the right thing to do. I will regularly bring biblical morality into those conversations. Nobody is surprised by that. Nobody's really offended by it. 'cause I just do it regularly. But I don't remember the last time where I was so overcome with joy because of my salvation that I just had to tell somebody.

Right. And that's a, that's a, that's an indictment on me. That's not an indictment on God. That's not an indictment on anyone else. That's an indictment on me. This parable is calling me to be more joyful about. My salvation.

[00:52:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. One of the, I think the best and easiest verses from Psalms to memorize is let the redeemed of the Lord say so.

Yes. Like, say something, speak up. There's, there's a great truth in what you're saying. Of course. And I think we mentioned this last time. There's a communal delight of redemption. And here we see that played out maybe a little bit more explicitly because the text says that the joy is before the angels, meaning that still God is the source of the joy.

In other words, the angels share in God's delight night, vice versa, and not even just in salvation itself, but the fact that God is delighted in this great salvation, that it shows the effectiveness of his saving power. All that he has designed will come to pass because he super intends his will over all things that all things, again are subservient to our salvation.

And here, why would that not bring him great joy? Because that's exactly what he intends and is able to do. And the angels rejoice along with him because his glory is revealed in his mighty power. So I'm, I'm with you. I mean, this reminds me. Of what the author of Hebrew says. This is chapter 12, just the first couple of verses.

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses in this communal kind of redemption of joy surrounding us. Laying aside every weight and the sin, which so easily entangles us, let us run that with endurance, the race that I set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who, for the joy, the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God for consider him who has endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you will not grow weary, fainting in heart.

[00:54:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, it's always good for us to end on scripture, so I won't try to add to that.

[00:54:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's the summary. That's what we learned. Yeah.

[00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: That's the summary, Jesse. Um, I'm so stoked to keep going on this series. Um, I, I think we're gonna have to probably take at least a couple weeks on the Parable of Prodigal Son because there's so much to it.

It's, it's a longer, uh, parable. So we'll come back next week. Um, take a little time, read through, uh, Luke 15, grab a decent commentary and, and do your homework so you can come into this conversation with us, ready to sort of soak in and marinate in God's word. And, and you know, this is one of those, um, one of those parables that I think that all of these parables, but like particularly this is one of those parables that I think we should tell other people what we're learning on this one.

I think there's always a place for us to share what we're learning, but it feels, it feels to me like this is something that is pertinent to Christians writ large. There is this sort of malaise and sense. Of a lack of joy that I think is really, yeah, there's almost like a spiritual depression in the church, and I don't use that term lightly like I have, I have friends and family members who suffer from clinical depression.

It's no joke. And there is a sort of like spiritual depression that settled in on the church in a lot of ways. We live in a pretty depressing time. And, and I think that church is affected by that. We could all use a dose of joy and we just happen to be going into, I'll even say it, even though it's not my normal practice, like we're going into Christmas.

Like it's the season of joy. Right? Right. Tis the season to be jolly like, right. There's a, there's a joyfulness in. In Christ that should be coming out of us, and we need to spread that, that needs to be contagious to others. So if you've found this episode, um, helpful in driving you towards that, please do consider sharing it with a friend, right?

Whether you, whether you use it, word of mouth, you send a link through your, through a text message, whatever, please tell someone because, not because Jesse and I are something special, like we're just two guys who wanna talk about the Bible and we get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we're not.

Always a hundred percent sure which of those is which, but this is God's word. And if, if sharing a link to this podcast drives someone to take a look at Luke chapter 15 and, and be able to be drawn by the Holy Spirit to that scripture, then, then that's great. So please consider sharing this episode with a friend.

And if this episode has been helpful for you too, we don't usually ask for this, but um, please go to whatever podcast app you're using and if there's the ability to leave a rating, please do that. Um, it doesn't change the algorithm. It doesn't make it so like we appear higher in the search engines or anything, but people do really do a lot of times look at the ratings of a podcast if they're deciding if they want to invest time in it.

Right. Especially if they look at an episode, it's 59 minutes long. They're like, Ooh, do I really want to burn 59 minutes of my life on this? Oh yeah, you do. A lot of times the way they've. Figure that out is if they look at the ratings and the ratings say yes, this is a great show. So please take a few minutes.

If you can go give us a, a rating on, um, on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you happen to be, we would really appreciate it and we would love for you to be able to share this episode with someone who might need to hear it.

[00:57:34] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, so let's play a little game as we close. So as you've said, we've been through the parable Lost Sheep.

We've been through the parable of the Lost Chama and now the granddaddy, the big one is coming up, the whole culmination of this whole series and sets of parables that Jesus is delivering and he's emphasizing and emphasizing and building momentum and it's the big one. So Tony, I ask you for our coverage over or under two and a half episodes to do it.

I dunno, is that the right line?

[00:58:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think at least two we might, we might stretch into a third, especially since we probably need to come back and talk about how Matthew covers this same subject a little differently. So I'll, I'll say at least two and a half, uh, and maybe the second half of that third one will be coming back to Matthew.

[00:58:22] Jesse Schwamb: So basically three, like, uh, yeah, you're over, which I think is probably the right call to make. So even there. We agreed. I, I felt like if I said three, that's like too many. You need a better line than that. You know? You gotta do it on the halves too, because then that forces an actual decision, which we really didn't make anyway.

'cause we basically just said two and a half.

[00:58:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Two and a half. Yeah. Well, Jesse, without further ado, let's, the sooner we get done with this, the sooner we can get onto the next. That's not actually how time works either, but it's just a good way to close the podcast. So it, if you're listening though, it's true.

It it is. It does. If you're listening, especially if you're listening. Nevermind. I'm gonna stop now. Until next time, Jesse, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In episode 471 of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal begin a multi-part series on Jesus's parables of lost things in Luke 15. This first installment focuses on the Parable of the Lost Sheep, exploring how Jesus uses this story to reveal God's disposition toward sinners. The hosts examine the contextual significance of this teaching as Jesus's response to the Pharisees' criticism of his fellowship with tax collectors and sinners. Through careful analysis of the text, they unpack how this parable not only rebukes religious self-righteousness but also reveals the active, seeking love of Christ for His own. The discussion highlights the profound theological truth that God's joy is made complete in the restoration of His lost children.

The central focus of the Parable of the Lost Sheep is not simply God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active pursuit of them. As Tony Arsenal points out, Jesus presents the shepherd's search not as an extraordinary act of sacrifice, but as the obvious and expected response: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the one that is lost?" Jesus frames this as the normal behavior that any shepherd would exhibit, making the Pharisees' lack of concern for "lost sheep" appear not just uncompassionate but utterly irrational.

This reveals a profound truth about God's character: He is not passively waiting for sinners to find their way back to Him; He is actively seeking them out. As Jesse Schwamb emphasizes, "Christ's love is an active, working love." The shepherd does not merely hope the sheep will return; he goes after it until he finds it. This reflects God's covenant commitment to His people—those whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world. The parable thus powerfully illustrates the doctrines of divine election and effectual calling within a deeply personal and relational framework.

Perhaps the most striking element of this parable is the emphasis on the shepherd's joy upon finding his lost sheep. This isn't merely relief at recovering lost property, but profound celebration that calls for community participation: "Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost." Jesse highlights Thomas Goodwin's profound insight that "Christ's own joy, comfort, happiness, and glory are increased and enlarged by his showing grace and mercy."

This suggests something remarkable about God's relationship with His people—that in some mysterious way, God's joy is made more complete in the act of showing mercy and restoring sinners. The hosts point out that this doesn't imply any deficiency in God, but rather reveals the relational nature of His love. When Jesus states that "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance," He's indicating that divine celebration isn't prompted merely by moral perfection but by restoration and reconciliation.

This understanding transforms how we approach God when we've strayed. As Jesse notes, "Jesus is never tired, flustered, or frustrated when we come to him for fresh forgiveness or renewed pardon." Our repentance doesn't merely avoid punishment; it actually brings joy to the heart of God. This is a profound comfort for believers struggling with sin and failure, assuring us that our return is met not with divine disappointment but with heavenly celebration.

"This parable of the lost sheep gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children. It's really an exceptional and special window into God's design, his loving compassion for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us, for his children who are lost." - Jesse Schwamb

"He wants us to draw on his grace and mercy because it is inherently who he is. And he drew near to us in this incarnation so that his joy and ours could rise and fall together, which is insane that God would come and condescend to that degree that in his giving mercy and in ours receiving it, Christ gets more joy and comfort than we do when we come to him for help and mercy." - Jesse Schwamb

"Christ's love is an active working love. Just as the shepherd did not sit still, wailing for his lost sheep, so our blessed Lord did not sit still in heaven pitying sinners. He comes to us, he came to us, and he continues to draw to himself those who are sheep, who hear his voice." - Jesse Schwamb

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design.

His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, Welcome to episode 471 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:00:56] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

[00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. You know, it seems like sometimes we could just summarize the teaching of Jesus like this. You get a parable and you get a parable, and you get a parable, and we've already, by looking at some of these parables, gotten to see what the kingdom of God means.

The kingdom of God is Jesus coming in His power. It's here, but also not yet. The kingdom of God is the judgment of God. The kingdom of God is a blessing of God. The kingdom of God is the treasure of God. And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design.

His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, and I think we'll probably have some maybe like semi hot takes, maybe some like mid hot takes as the young kids say.

[00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: Mid hot takes.

[00:02:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.

[00:02:08] Tony Arsenal: So like

[00:02:09] Jesse Schwamb: lukewarm takes, well my thought is like, what is a hot take that's not heretical? Do you know what I mean? So it's gotta be, yeah,

[00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: there you go.

[00:02:16] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's like, listen, we want to be orthodox in our approach here, but I think we gotta, we gotta chew these up a little bit.

Like we gotta digest them, we gotta move them around in our gut and really take everything that we've, we thought we knew about these, we just heard and they've been written on cards or postcards or crocheted into, I guess you're not crocheting bible verses, but like cross stitching Bible verses on pillows and really go deep because I think there's so much here for us, and if this were like for, for everybody that wants to say that, sometimes we take a little bit too long with our series.

Again, I do have a question, simple question for all of those people. And that question is how dare you? And the second thing I would say is, you're lucky that you're not listening to a Puritan podcast. Maybe you never would, like at the Puritans in a podcast, the series would never end. They'd start with like a single verse and be like, we're gonna do two episodes on this.

And then they'd be getting to the like, you know, 4 71 and they still wouldn't have left like the, the first five words.

[00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. We move a little bit faster than that. Pace. Not much. Yeah. Way,

[00:03:15] Jesse Schwamb: listen, way faster. By like Puritan standards, we are cruising. Like we're, we're just like NASCAR going through these parables.

And to that end, I'll try to keep us moving though. I've already delayed us already because we're, we're late for affirmations.

[00:03:30] Jesse Schwamb: Denials. The time is ripe. It is Now. The fields are gleaning with affirmations and denials. So let's, let's bring them in. Tony, are you denying against, are you affirming with something?

[00:03:40] Tony Arsenal: It's a little bit of both, I guess. Um, do it.

[00:03:44] Tony Arsenal: A little while ago, uh, it was maybe back in September, I did an episode on, uh, some theology that was being propagated by a podcast called Reformed Fringe. Um, it was a solo episode, so if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. The affirmation here comes in, in, uh, the form of a show called, I think it's called The Reclamation Cast.

Um, there are a series of podcasts that have addressed some of the same issues. For those who haven't been following it, which I would assume is probably most of you, the issue is kind of blown up online. Um, Theo Cast, which was a pretty big a, a really big podcast in the, uh, sort of reformed ish, particular Baptist world.

Um, they actually split because of this. And so John Moffitt was one of the hosts. Justin Perdue was the other. And then John was also on this show called Reform Fringe with Doug Van Dorn. So I'm affirming some of these other podcasts that have covered the same issue, and I would encourage you to seek them out and listen to them.

I can can pull some links together for the show notes today. Um, more or less the, the issue that I identified, um, is beyond just sort of what's known as Divine Counsel Theology, which was made, made, really made popular by, um, Michael Heiser. I don't know that he would, we could say that he was necessarily like the.

Architect or inventor of that. I'm sure there are people who've had similar thoughts before that, but he's really the main name. Um, he's passed on now, but, um, Doug Van Dorn was a, uh, he's a Baptist pastor outta Col, uh, Colorado, who took his views and actually sort of like cranked him up and particularly.

Uh, troubling is the way he handles, um, the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. Um, I won't go into all of the details, but he wants to argue and he has argued in writing actually, and he, he published the paper first in 2015, and then again in 2024, he published it again, uh, with very minimal changes and nothing substantial.

It was really kind of contextual stuff. Um, he actually argues that in the Old Testament, when we see the angel of the Lord, it's not just, not just God appearing as an angel, it's God actually becoming an angel. And in his paper, at least, he argues, um, more or less that this is a sort of hypostatic union.

It's not just a temporary taking on of some sort of like outward appearance. Um, it's an actual, uh, uh, assumption of properties into the person of the sun. And the whole reason he makes this argument, which is why it's a little disingenuine, that now he's saying that's not what his argument was. He makes this argument in order to make it so the angel of the Lord can genuinely suffer, experience passions, change his mind, um, enter into covenant, come to know new knowledge, like there's all sorts of things that he wants the angel of the Lord to be able to actually do, not just accommodated, but actually.

Experience. Um, and he does that by having the angel of the Lord be an appropriation of angelic properties into the person of the sun, what we would call a hypostatic union. And in his paper, he actually says like, I would want to use all of the same language of, uh, of this union as I do of the incarnation.

He intentionally uses the words image and form kind of drawing from Philippians two. So the, the affirmation comes in and there are other podcasts that have identified this. So it's not just me. I would encourage people to go find them. Where the denial comes in is, um, there have been many people, including myself, who have attempted to engage with Doug Van Dorn, like publicly, directly, um, through private messaging.

There are many people who've tried to reach out to him, and he has just sort of waved all of them away. Which is one thing, if like you just say like, I don't really care to interact with you. I don't really care to have this discussion. But then he is also presenting the situation as though he, he is totally open to having these conversations and nobody is trying to reach out to him.

So I would encourage everyone, you're all reasonable people, search the scriptures, read what he has to say. The paper that he wrote is called Passing the Impassable pa or impassable Impasse, which is hard to say, but it's a very clever title. Um, and it was, it actually was written, I don't know a lot about this controversy and maybe I need to do a little bit more research.

It was actually written during a time where, um, the particular Baptist conventions that were out out west where experiencing a lot of internal controversy regarding impassability, and this was his proposal for how, how biblically you can still maintain the divine attributes of changeness and impassability all these things, uh, without compromising the real, the real passable, um, appearance that we see of the, of God in the Bible.

So. I don't wanna belabor the point. This is not the point of the show. We, I already did a whole episode on this. I've published, I wrote many blog articles. There's a lot that I've, I've put out on this. Um, so check it out, look at it. Wait for yourself. Um, the only reason I've been, this has come up in our telegram chat.

People have encountered this theology. Um, one, one guy was asking about it, 'cause I think like his mom or his aunt or someone close to him had, has been sort of reading Michael Heider's work. Michael Heiser was very instrumental at logos. He was on staff at Logos for quite a while. So a lot of their, um, more speculative theological articles that you might find on their website are written by him.

Um, he was a, one of the main people behind the sort of proprietary translation that, um, Laro uses the Lham, um, English Bible. So. It's not a neutral point. Pretty significant theological consequences if, uh, if our reading of what Doug is saying is correct. Um, and there doesn't seem to be any real openness to discussing that.

He has to be fair, he has published a series of affirmations and denials, um, affirming his a his orthodoxy saying he affirms the change changeness of the son. He denies that there was a hypothetic union. So that's encouraging. It's great to see that when it comes down to it. He's willing to make affirmations, uh, of orthodox things and to deny unorthodox things, but it doesn't really help the situation when those things and those affirmations, denials are still at very least difficult to reconcile with what he wrote.

I think in point of fact, they're actually contradictory to what he wrote. So the, the proper course of action would be for him to say, well, no, that's not what I meant. Or, or, yes, I wrote that, but that's not what I believe. Um, rather than to just try say, trying to say like, well, you all got it wrong.

There's a lot of people reading these papers looking at it going, Ooh, it sure seems like the sun took on an angelic nature, even if that was temporary. That's, that's got some pretty weird consequences for your theology. And one of the shows I was listening to made this point that I thought was interesting and a little scary is this is like an utterly new theology.

Um, no one that I've talked to who is aware of this, who studied these issues. Is aware of anyone ever saying anywhere that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was some sort of like assumption of actual angelic properties into the person of the sun. Almost everywhere that you read. It's either a manifestation view where the sun is kind of appearing as an angel, um, but it's not actually becoming an angel.

It's, it's sort of taking on created medium, uh, in order to reveal himself or an instrumental view, which would be something like there's an angel that is used instrumentally by the Lord, and so we can say that it the angel of the Lord is the Lord in an instrumental sense, kind of like saying like if I pick up a hammer.

Use that hammer for as long as I'm using that hammer. The hammer is actually sort of an extension of me. I'm moving it, I'm motivating it, I'm controlling it, it's connected to me, and then I put it down when I'm finished. Those are kind of the two main views that people, people would argue in the Old Testament, if they want to even say that the angel of the Lord is a Christoph, it would either be this manifestation view or this instrumental view, this sort of weird novel assumption of properties view.

I'm, I've never encountered anything like that and I've studied this, this, this particular issue at some length. So check out the other episodes, I'll pull together some links, uh, of ones that have done it, both that have been, uh, critical of Doug's position. And also there was one, um, on remnant radio, which I never heard of, but, um, that was acknowledging that there are some question marks, but sort of saying like, this really is an overblown controversy.

Um, and then I'll link to Doug's podcast too, so you can listen to his own words and, and sort of think through it yourself.

[00:11:51] Jesse Schwamb: Some point I have this volition, you know, places, organizations, groups might have like FAQs, frequently asked questions. I have this idea to put together for us, like a frequently discussed topic.

This would be one of them. We've talked, or we co we've come back to this idea of like the molecule way, the messenger of the Lord many times. Yeah. In part because I think there's a good and natural curiosity among many when you're reading the scriptures and you see that's the angel of the Lord and you're trying to discern, is it Christoph?

And in some cases it seems more clear than others. For instance, the Maia appearing to, you know, Joshua, or, you know, there's, there's all kinds of instances in the scripture that draw us into this sense of like, well, who is it that is being represented here? And the funny thing about this though, and I agree with you, that like makes it.

Puts it in like, I would say contradistinction to like just kind of innocently wanting to understand is that there's a lot of theological gymnastics happening here, like a lot and two, it seems to me that he's kind of trying to create a problem to find a solution on this one. Yeah. And so it should give everybody that sense that we always talk about where like the red light goes off, the flags get thrown up, that when you hear that, you're just like, well, something is not right about that.

And the thing that's not right about it is one, it doesn't subscribe to, like you're saying, any kind of historical orthodoxy. And two, it's just funky for funky sake. It's, there's really a lot that's happening there to get to some kind of end, and it's better to know what that end is. I'm glad you brought that up.

So I think you can, everybody who's listening can weigh, like, if you. Don't wanna weigh into that, or you don't really need to solve the problem that's being created here, then don't bother with it altogether. Yeah. Uh, it's just not worth your time. But people, this is the hide thing. Like when, when we are challenged to be discerning people, when we are challenged to take scriptures at face value, there is always a tendency for us sometimes to go too deep, to get too wild with it, to try to turn around and bend it to, to answer all in every single question.

And even the reform tradition doesn't attempt to do that. So here, there is something that's beautiful about these certain mysteries of God and to take him at his face, to trust him in his word, we should seek, seek out many things. Some things are just not worth seeking out. So, you know, the Internet's gonna internet and people are gonna, people and theologians are gonna theologize.

And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not that productive.

[00:14:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think to be as charitable as I possibly can be, I think, um, Doug is, has identified a legitimate. Question about the Old Testament, right? Right. The, the Bible appears when we read about God in the Old Testament. He appears to do things like change his mind, suffer yes.

Grieve experience passions. Right. Um, and, and so that's a real, um, question that needs to be answered as you read the Old Testament. Um, and the two options of course, or the two primary options of course, are either that God actually suffers, he actually experiences those things, in which case he wouldn't be a changeless God.

Um, he wouldn't be a perfect God because there's these, these modes of change within God. The other option would be that there's some sort of appearance of suffering or appearance of, of change or passions that is not actual, it's not real in the sense that he's not God's lying. It's not that God's lying to us, of course not.

But that these are appearances for our sake. We would say that's, we call that the doctrine of accommodation. Right. Um. What Doug tries to do is actually exactly what the church did in trying to understand how it could be that the second person of the Trinity suffered. Uh, why, why we can genuinely say that God suffered.

Um, we can say that and that the answer was the hypothetic union, and this is where it really kind of like jumped into full relief for me is Doug has the same answer for the Old Testament, but instead of an incarnation of humanity, I don't know what you would call it, an, an evangelization or a, something like that, um, he would probably call like a, some somatization.

Um, he uses the difference between Soma and sars as though that somehow answers the question. He says it's not a, an incarnation into sarks. It's a, an assumption of properties in da Soma. But in either case, like his answer is the same answer. That the way that the angel of the Lord suffers in the Old Testament is not according to his divine nature.

It's according to these angelic properties that are assumed into his person well. Okay, so like you get the same conclusion. There needs to be some explanation now of like, well, why is it a hypostatic union when it's the human nature, but it's not a hypostatic union when it's the angelic nature or angelic properties.

Um, and I think the, the real answer is that when Doug wrote those papers, he just didn't realize those implications. Um, Doug is a sharp guy, like, don't get me wrong, he's a smart guy. Um, I think he's got a pretty good grip on Hebrew and, and a lot of this too is, um. Not to make this more of an episode than it is, but, um, this Divine Council worldview at first feels like not that big of a deal when you, when you read about it the first time.

Um, or when you read sort of like popular treatments of it. Um, the real problem is that this divine council worldview, um, which I'm not gonna define again, you can look, I'll pull the radio episode or the other podcast episodes, but this divine council worldview becomes like the controlling meta narrative for the entire scripture for these guys.

And so if, if the son is to be the sort of lead Elohim on this divine council besides Yahweh himself, then he has to become an angel. He has to become a one of the sons of God in order to do this. Sort of almost ignoring the fact that like he already was the son of God. Like, it, it just becomes, um, this controlling meta-narrative.

And if all that this, all that this divine council worldview is saying is like, yes, there's a class of creatures. Um, that are spiritual in nature and the Bible uses the word Elohim to describe them and also uses the word Elohim to describe the one true God who's in an entirely different class. And it just happens to use the same, the same word to describe those two classes.

Okay. Like I would find a different way to say that that's maybe not as risky and confusing, but that would be fine. But this goes so much farther than than that. And now it has all these weird implications. He actually did a five, five-part sermon series at his church where his argument is essentially that like this.

This overarching narrative of the Sons of God and, and the 70 sons of God. Um, that that's actually the story that explains how salvation functions and what we're being saved to is we're not being swept into the life of the Trinity, which is kind of the classic Christian view, the classic orthodox view that because, because of who the son is by nature, in reference to the father, when we're adopted, we gain that same relationship with the father and the son and the spirit.

Um, he's, he's wanting to say, it's actually more like, no, we, we we're sort of brought onto this divine council as, as creator representatives of the cosmos. So it's, it, there's a lot to, it's, um, again, I, I don't want people just to take my word for it. I'm gonna provide as many receipts as I can, um, in the, the, um, show notes.

Um, but yeah, it's, it's weird and it, it's unnecessary and

[00:18:57] Jesse Schwamb: that's right.

[00:18:58] Tony Arsenal: It made a lot of sense to me when Michael Heiser went down these routes, because his whole program was, he had a, a podcast called The Naked Bible, and the whole idea was like he interprets the Bible apart from any prior interpretations, which of course we know is not possible.

But that was sort of his plan was he's. It wasn't necessarily anti cre, anti-real or anticon confessional. He just thought you needed to and could come to the Bible without any sort of pre interpretive, uh, positions. Um, so it made a lot of sense to me when he was like, well, yeah, this isn't the way that the historic tradition isn't understood this, but that doesn't matter.

But then you have someone like Doug Van Dorn come around who claims to be a 1689 Confessional Baptist. This is like radically foreign to that system of doctrine. So it's just a weird situation. It's kind of an abandonment of the pattern of sound words that handed down to us, the ages. Um, and it does have all these weird implications, and I'm not hearing loud and clear.

I am not saying Doug Van Dorn is not a Christian. Um, I do think that the implications of what he's teaching are heretical. Um, but we've made the distinction before that like, just because you teach something heretical doesn't mean you're a heretic. Um, that's a, that's a formal proclamation that the church officially makes not some dude on the internet with a podcast.

But the, the implications of his teaching are quite dangerous. So. Check it out. Read it with caution and with discernment, um, and with, you know, a good systematic theology that can help kind of correct you in your hands. And the creeds and the confessions. But dude, check it out. You, you're reasonable people.

Look at the scriptures yourself and make your own decisions. I don't expect anybody to ever just take my word for any of this stuff.

[00:20:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's right. Or like you said, don't bother with. Yeah. Or don't bother. Just read the confessions. Unaware of it. Yeah. That's also, okay. Stick to the, the, hopefully the good local preaching and teaching that you're receiving and just hang out there.

Yeah. And that's also okay. The internet is a super strange and weird place. Yeah. And that includes even among well intentions. Theology, sometimes it just gets weird. And this is one of those examples.

[00:20:51] Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. I often tell people that my, my goal in any sort of public teaching or podcasting or blogging or when I'm preaching, uh, my goal is to be as like vanilla reformed as I possibly can.

Like that's what I'm saying. There, there are times where like some of the stuff that I be, like, I, I'm not like straight down the middle on every single thing. There are things that I would, you know, like my view on, um, state relations with church like that, that's not exactly run of the mill vanilla presbyterianism.

Um, so there are definitely things where I'm, I'm sort of a little off center on, um, but I try to be like right down the middle of the vanilla, vanilla aisle here with maybe a little bit of chocolate sauce here and there. But it's, it's pretty, uh, my reform theology is pretty boring and I'm fine with that.

I love

[00:21:35] Jesse Schwamb: it. I love it. It's okay to be boring, isn't it? Like boring? It's is for the most part, right. On the money. Because often when we do take our views and we polarize them to some degree, we know that there's a greater probability propensity for the errors to lie there if you're always hanging out there.

Yeah. But especially in this, again, you've said all the right things it, it's just one of those things. But it's a good mark for all of us to understand that when we move so far away from orthodoxy that we're just kind of out on the pier by ourselves and you're looking around, you ought to ask what happened that you're out there so far.

[00:22:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, save us from this train of thought. What are you affirming or denying today?

[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: I hope I have something that's exactly the opposite. As you know, Tony, not all affirmations especially are created equal because sometimes we throw one out there and it's, it's good. We think it's great. Maybe not for everybody.

It doesn't resonate. It doesn't hit. This is not one of those, this is for everybody.

[00:22:24] Jesse Schwamb: I'm coming in with a hot, strong affirmation, and that is one of the things you and I have promulgated for so long is the beauty, the necessity, the responsibility, and the joy of regular daily worship, and that can look.

Lots of ways, but I think you and I have tried in our own lives and we've spoken a lot about the high conviction that we have that that kinda worship should be participatory and it can involve reading the scriptures, praying, singing this spills over into convictions about family worship, leading our families, and that kinda experience, even if it's just a little bit every day and even if it's, we give it our best efforts, this is not like a kind of legalistic approach.

And so I just came across something that I think I've been testing for a while that I think is faab fabulous for everybody, could be helpful to you in daily worship. And I'm just gonna give you the website first and explain what it is. Secondly, so the website is sing the worship initiative.com. That's sing dot the worship initiative.com.

You can find it if it's easier. Just search the Worship initiative. What this is, is it is. Once you sign up for this, you'll actually get a text. It's a daily text, and that text will be a link in a browser every day. So it's not a podcast, but it comes through a browser every day. It is a time of, I would say, I'll use the word colloquially, it's a time of devotional with singing led by Shane and Shane and some of their other musicians and their friends.

And this is glorious. It's no more than 15 minutes, and it's purposely orchestrated to lead you or whoever's listening with you in singing, including in the app or rather in the browser. They will give you the words for the songs that they're gonna sing that day. And one, Shannon and Shane are fantastic musicians.

You wanna listen to this with a good speaker or set of, uh, earbuds because, uh, the music is great and it's very stripped down. It's just, it's just piano and a little bit guitar generally. Uh, but the speaking of the theological pieces of what's in these songs is fantastic. And this just past week, they've done songs like Crown Hit with Many Crowns.

Um, in Christ Alone, he will hold me fast, he will hold me fast, is an incredible piece of music and a piece of worship. So I'm just enjoying, they are using rich deeply theological songs to speak rich, deep theological truths, and then to invite you into a time of singing, like along with them. It's as if like they were just in your living room or in their kitchen and said, Hey, you got 15 minutes, especially start the day.

Why don't we gather around this table and why don't we worship together? So I haven't found something quite like this where it's like an invitation to participate, both by being active listeners into what they're saying, but by also singing together. So I. Can only come at this with a really hot affirmation because I'm being blessed by it.

And this rhythm of somebody like leading you daily into song, I'm finding to be so incredibly valuable. Of course, like we can find song in lots of places. We may lead ourselves, we may rely on the radio or a playlist to do that, but this kind of unique blend of a time that's being set apart, that's organized around a theme and then brings music into that as a form of meditation and worship is pretty singular.

So check out, sing the worship edition of.com and especially if you're a fan of Shane and Shane, you're gonna slide right into this and feel very blessed because they're talented musicians and what they're bringing, I think is a, is a rich theological practice of actual worship, not just devotionals of some kind, but like actual participatory worship of, of in spirit and truth.

[00:25:53] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I just signed up for this while you're talking. It took about a minute. It's super easy. So, um, and I'm sure that they have a way to opt out. If you start it and you hate it and you want to just stop getting text messages, I'm sure you can just respond, stop. Um, so there's really nothing to lose.

There's no gimmick. They don't ask for a credit card, anything like that. Um, and I, I'm with you, like I love me some Shane and Shane music, and I do like some Shane and Shane music, um, that, that like takes me way back. Those, there are a lot of singers who've been at this for a long time. Yes, Shane and Shane was like.

A really like popular band when I was in like, like upper high school. Oh yeah. So like, we're talking about a multi-decade career, long career doing mostly worship music, like they're performers, but they have entire, they have entire, many entire, um, albums that are psalms, um, entire albums that are worship choruses or what you might think of as chorus singing.

Um, so yeah, I think this is great. And I'm always looking for new ways to integrate worship into my life. So this could be something as simple as like, maybe you're not gonna be able to sing out loud, but you could listen to this on the bus on the way home. Or you could put in your air, your ear pods, uh, when you're, you know, doing the dishes and instead of just listening to another podcast.

I recognize the irony of saying that on a podcast that you may be listening to while you're doing the dishes, but instead of just listening to another podcast, you spend a little bit of time thinking about meditating on God's word. So that's great. I think that's an awesome, awesome information. A little

[00:27:20] Jesse Schwamb: bit like very casual liturgy, but you're right, they've been around for a while and this, the content that they're producing here strikes me as like very mature.

Yeah, both like in, of course, like the music they're doing and how they're singing, they're singing parts, but also just what they're speaking into. It's not just like kind of a, let's let tell you how this song impacted my life. They're, they're pulling from the scriptures and they're praying through.

They're giving you a moment to stop and pause and pray yourself. There's a lot that's, that's built in there. And can I give like one other challenge?

[00:27:47] Jesse Schwamb: This, this came to me as well this week and I know we've had some conversation in the telegram chat about like family worship, leading our families in worship about somehow how do we model that?

How do we bring that together? And music often being a part of that. And I think that it's especially important for families to hear their. Their fathers and their husbands sing, no matter what your voice sounds like. Can I give a, a challenge? I think might sound crazy. This might be a hot, hot take. And so you can bring me back down instead of a mid hot take.

If it, yeah, if it's a little bit too hot. But I was reading an article, and this is really from that article, and it, it did challenge me. And the article basically challenged this and said, listen, most people are actually far more musical than they understand themselves to be. And that might just not be in the instrumentation of the voice, but in other ways.

And so the challenge was if you're a, a husband, a father, maybe you have some proclivity of music, maybe you have none. The challenge was basically, why don't you consider. Learning a musical instrument to lead your family in worship. And, and the challenge was basically like, pick up a guitar and, uh, see if you can eke out a couple of chords.

Work through that just for the sole purpose of if nothing else, but saying like, I want to participate in something differently in my home. And maybe that's getting a keyboard and just, just trying it there. If I can play the guitar, anybody truly I think can play the guitar. It's, it's not really that difficult.

I just found this captivating that this guy laid down the gauntlet and said, maybe you ought to consider doing that if only to be a model of worship in your own home throughout, throughout the week. And I just thought, you know what? That's something we're thinking about. I think all of us have something there.

And that might be for some, like, maybe it means strengthening your personal prayer closet. So like your example in time of, of corporate worship of your family is stronger. Maybe it means your study of the scriptures, not just of course for like pure devotional life, but to instruct or to practice that scripture for your family.

So I, I take this point of, it's not just about the music, but it could be if you're, if you're looking and saying like, man, I wish that we had some music. Um, you, you possibly could be the music. And it's just something to think about.

[00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'll say this. Uh, it's not that hard to play guitar, but Jesse is actually quite a talented guitar player, so even though he's right, it's not that difficult.

Uh, Jesse is, uh, is much better than he's letting on. But yeah, I mean, most modern worship songs, um, you can get by, you might have to like find a version online of it in this key, and you might not be able to sing it in this key, but like GC, D and E Minor. Yeah, that's right. We'll get you, we will get you basically every major worship song that you're used to singing.

And those are all very easy chords to play. Yes. Um, there are difficult chords and some, some worship songs are more difficult or the, the tone is more difficult. Um, but even, even something like that, or get a keyboard and just do, you know, you can just pluck out notes, right? You can write on the notes what the, what the name of the notes are and just pluck out notes so people can sing with it.

Um, there are lots of ways you can do, get a kazoo. You could lead music, you could lead your, that's your family in worship with a kazoo, um, or get the Trinity Salter hymnal app. Like, it's, yes, there are many ways that you could incorporate music in your family devotions and your personal devotions that, um, are not that challenging and, uh, really do add a lot.

Now, I know there are some, there are probably a few people in our, our listening audience that are acapella only people. And I respect that perspective and, and I understand where it comes from. But, um, even then, like this might also be a little bit of a hot take. I'm not an excellent singer. I'm not a terrible singer, but, um, I could be a better singer if I practiced a little bit.

And with the, with the ease of finding things like YouTube vocal coaches and right, just like vocal lessons and techniques and practice. Cool. Like, you could very easily improve your ability to sing and your confidence to sing, right? And that's only gonna help you to lead your family. I'll even throw this in there.

Um. I'm in a congregation with lots and lots and lots of young families. There are five pregnant couples in our church right now. Wow. And our church, our church is probably only about 70 people on an average Sunday. So five pregnant, uh, couples is a pretty high percentage. Um, what I will tell you is that when the congregation is singing, we have lots of men who sing and they sing loud.

But when the children are looking around at who is singing, they're not looking at the women, they're looking at the men. Right. Um, and you know, we're not, we are not like a hyper-masculinity podcast. We're not, you know, this isn't Michael Foster's show, this isn't the Art of Manhood. Um, but we've been pretty consistent.

Like, men lead the way. That's the way the Bible has, that's way God's created it. And that's the way the Bible teaches it. And if you're in the church. You are commanded to sing. It's not an option.

[00:32:28] Tony Arsenal: But what I will tell you is that, um, singing loud and singing confidently and singing clearly and helping the congregation to sing by being able to project your voice and sing competently, uh, it does a lot for your church.

Yes. So it's never gonna be the wrong decision to improve your ability to sing and your confidence to sing. So I think that's great. I think the whole thing is great. You can learn to sing by listening to Shane and Shane and singing with them, and you can Yes. Invest a little bit of time and maybe a little bit of money in, in like an online vocal.

I mean, you can get something like Musician or something like that that has guitar, but also you can do vocal training through that. There's lots of resources out there to do that. So yes, I guess that's the challenge this week. Like, let's all get out there and improve our singing voices a little bit and, and see if we can, can do this together.

[00:33:14] Jesse Schwamb: I love it. I, I don't wanna belabor the points.

[00:33:16] Jesse Schwamb: I only bring it up because there might be somebody out there that's thinking, you know, I'd like to do more of that. And I say to you, well, why not you? It's okay. Like you could just go and explore and try get or borrow a relatively inexpensive guitar. And like you said, you don't need to learn to read music to do that.

You're just kind of learning some shapes and they correspond to certain letters in the alphabet. And in no time at all, you could be the person that's strumming out, eking out some chords and you're doing that at home. And that might be a great blessing. It might change your life. It might change the trajectory of how you serve in the church.

And you might find that God has equipped you to do those things. Yeah. And wouldn't it be lovely just to try some of those things out? So whatever, whatever they are, it's certainly worth trying and, and music is a big part of, I know like your life. Mine and it is someday. Tony, we have to do the sing episode.

I don't know that we've actually done that one, right? We just talk about what it like, is it a command that we sing and why I think we've

[00:34:08] Tony Arsenal: done that. I think we did have, we, it's early on in the episode on our views. Might have changed a little bit. So we maybe should um, we should loop back to, I'm sure we talked about 'em when we were going through Colossians as well.

[00:34:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think we did. I just dunno if we did, like, we're, we're just gonna set a whole hour aside and for us, that's definitely not an hour, but, and just talk about this in particular and like what, why do we sing and what, why does guy command this? And then why our voice is different and why do some people feel this, you know, sense of like why don't have a good voice and you know, we, you always hear people say like, well make a joyful noise.

And I think sometimes that falls flax. You're kinda like, yeah, but you don't know the noise I'm making you. That's kind of the response you hear. So some someday we'll come back to it, but I'm gonna make a prophetic announcement that there is no way we're going get through this one parable. No already. So.

[00:34:55] Jesse Schwamb: Everybody strap in because we'll do probably a part one. And if you're curious about where we're going, we're moving just away from Matthew for now, we're gonna be hanging out in Luke 15. We've got a trio of parables about lost things. And again, I think this is gonna be very common to many people. So I encourage you as best you can, as we read these to always start our conversation, try to strip away what you've heard before and let's just listen to the scripture.

[00:35:20] Jesse Schwamb: So we're gonna start in Luke chapter 15 in verse one. I'm not even gonna give you the name of the parable because you will quickly discern which one it is. So this is the Luke chapter 15, beginning of verse one. Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Jesus to listen to him, and both the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them.

So he told them this parable saying. What man among you, if he has 100 sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the 99 in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it. And when he is found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors saying to them, rejoice with me for I found my lost sheep.

I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repentance than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.

[00:36:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And yeah, this, this will definitely be a multi-part episode. And, and part of that is we just spent a half an hour talking about affirmations and denials.

I think we probably should have a podcast called Belaboring The Point, which is just us talking about other random stuff. Fair.

[00:36:33] Tony Arsenal: But, um, the other part is that this parable is, um, slightly different in Luke as it is in Matthew.

[00:36:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:36:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, and also it's positioning in the narrative and what comes immediately following it is different.

And I think that's worth unpacking a little bit as we talk about it this week, next week and, and probably maybe even into a third week. Um, but the, the parable here on, on one level, like most parables is super, super straightforward, right? Like right. This is God's di, this is God's demeanor, and his disposition is that he seeks that which is lost, um, which is good news for us because all of us are lost.

There's only lost people until God finds them. Right. Um, and find again, of course, is an accommodated way of saying it's not like God has to go out searching for us. He knows where we are and he knows how to find us. Um. But this is also a different format for a parable, right? He's, he's not saying the kingdom of heaven is like this.

The parable is what man of you having a hundred sheep? Like the parable is a question Yes. Posed to the audience, and it, it is in the context here, and this is where, this is where looking at the parallels between different, different gospels and how it's presented and even the different variations here shows you, on one level it shows you that Jesus taught these parables in multiple different contexts and different occasions.

Right? In this occasion, it's he's sitting down, he's with the tax collectors and the sinners. They're grumbling. They're saying, this man eats with sinners. And receives them in, um, in Matthew, it's slightly different, right? He's in a different context and sit in a different teaching context. So the way that we understand that is that Christ taught these parables multiple places.

And so we should pay attention to the variation, not just because there's variation for variation's sake, but the way that they're positioned tells us something. So when he's telling the account in Luke, it's told as a corrective to the tax collectors and the um. Right on the Pharisees, um, who are, sorry.

It's a, it's a corrective to the Pharisees and the scribes who are grumbling about the tax collectors and the sinners drawing near to Christ. And so he speaks to the Pharisees and to the scribes and is like, well, which one of you wouldn't go seek out their lost sheep? Like, it's this question that just lays bare.

They're really sinful. Ridiculous Jonah. I just invented that. Like Jonah I perspective that like, oh, exactly how dare God go after how dare Christ eat with sinners and tax collectors? And he says, well, if you love something. If you love your sheep, you're going to go after your sheep.

[00:39:03] Tony Arsenal: You're not going to just abandon, uh, this sheep to its own devices, even though there is, and again, this is a, a comedy way of talking about like, even though there's some risk associated with going after the one sheep, because you do have to leave the 99, he still is saying like, this is the character.

This is my character speaking as grace. This is my character. This is the character of my father. And there's this implication of like, and it's obviously not the character of you. So I think this is a, this is a really great parable to sort of highlight that feature of parables when they're repeated across different, um, gospels.

We have to pay attention, not just to the words of the parables themselves, but what the teaching is in response to what the teaching like proceeds. We'll see when we look at Matthew, there's a very, there's a, a different. Flavor to the parable because of what he's going to be leading into in the teaching.

So I love this stuff. This has been such a great series to sort of like work through this because you, you really start to get these fine details.

[00:39:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This parable of the lost sheep is I think on the face straightforward, like you said. But it is actually complex. It's complex in the argumentation and the posturing Jesus takes here, like you said, he's binding the pharisee.

This is condemning question of like which one of you, like you said. So there's that, which is slightly different element than we've seen or covered so far. There's also the context, like you said, in which it happens and I think we need to think specifically about. Who is this lost? Who are the 99? Who are the ones that Jesus is really trying to draw in with conviction, but also, again, what is he saying about himself?

And it's way more, of course, like we're gonna say, well, this is again, that default, that heart posture. Even those things are more cliche than we mean them to be. Yeah. And we need to spend some time, I think, on all of these elements. And it starts with, at least in Luke, we get this really lovely context about when the teaching unfolds.

And even that is worth just setting down some roots for for just a second. Because what I find interesting here is I think there's a principle at play that we see where. Everything that everything gives. Jesus glory, all the things give him glory, even when his enemies come before him and seek to label him.

It's not as if Jesus appropriates that label, repurposes, it turns it for good. The very label, the things that they try to do to discredit him, to essentially disparage him, are the very things that make him who he is and show his loving and kindness to his people. And I think we'll come back to this like this, this sheep this, these are his children.

So these words that it starts with, that were evidently spoken with surprise and scorn, certainly not with pleasure and admiration. These ignorant guides of the Jews could not understand a religious preacher having anything to do with what they perceive to be wicked people. Yeah. And yet their words worked for good.

I mean, this is exactly like the theology of the cross. The very saying, which was meant for reproach, was adopted by Jesus as a true description of his ministry. It is true. He's the one who comes and sits and subs and communes and touches the sinners, the ugly, the unclean, the pariahs. It led to his speaking three of these particular parables in Luke in rapid succession.

For him to emphasize that he's taken all of what was literally true that the scribes of Pharisees said, and to emphasize that he is indeed the one who received sinners. It's not like he's just like saying, well, lemme put that on and wear that as a badge. He's saying. You do not understand God if you think that God does not receive sinners, to pardon them, to sanctify them, to make them fit for heaven.

It's his special office to do so. And this, I think therein lies this really dip deep and rich beauty of the gospel, that that's the end that he truly came into the world.

[00:42:47] Jesse Schwamb: He came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. He came to the world to safe sinners, what he was upon Earth. He's now at the right hand of God and will be for all eternity.

And he's emphatically the sinner's friend. And without this reproach from the Pharisees, like we don't get this particular teaching and what they intended again, to be used to really discredit God, to say, look, how can this be the son of God? What we get then for all of eternity is some understanding of Christ.

And even here now with his word, we have this sense like, listen, do we feel bad? Do we feel wicked and guilty and deserving of God's wrath? Is there some remembrance of our past lives, the bitterness of sin to us? Is there some kind of recollection of our conduct for which we're ashamed? Then we are the very people who ought to apply to Christ.

And Christ demonstrates that here, that his love is an act of love. Just as we are pleading nothing good of our own and making no useless delay, we come because of this teaching to Christ and will receive graciously his part in freely. He gives us eternal life. He's the one who sinners. I'm so thankful for this parable because it sets up very clearly who Jesus is, and this is where we can say he is for us.

So let us not be lost for lack of applying to him that we may be saved. This text gives us the direct inroad to apply for that kind of healing and favor of God.

[00:44:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and I love, um, there is such a, um, subtle sort of SmackDown that Jesus does. Like, yeah. I, I think, um, just speaking on a purely human level for a second, like Jesus is such a master re tion.

Like he is so handy and capable to just dismantle and smack down people who, and I obviously, I don't mean that in like a sinful way. Like he just puts down the argument. He just gets it done with, and even the way this is phrased, right, they come, they're grumbling, this man receives sinners and meets with them.

So he told them this par ball, what, what man of you having a hundred sheep, if he lost one of them, doesn't leave the 99 in the open country and go after the one that is lost, right? So he's saying like, he jumps in right away, like. This is just the obvious answer. This is just the obvious state, like who would not go after their sheep.

I think we hear this, and again, I'm not an expert on like first century sheep herding practices, right? But like we think of it, I look at it, I'm like, actually, like that seems like a really bad investment. Like it would be really bad idea to go after the one sheep and leave your 99 in the open country.

That seems like a silly answer. That's my error. That's me being wrong because he's saying that as the obvious answer. Right? I think we sometimes, um, I've heard, I've heard sermons that preach this, that make it almost like this is a super reckless. You know, abandonment. Like he's so enamored with us that he leaves the 99 and he goes after the one, and he's taking such a huge risk.

But the way that this is presented, this is the obvious thing that anyone in their right mind would do if they lost a sheet. Right? For sure. Right? It's not an unusual response. Yes. There's an element of risk to that, and I think that's, that's part of the parable, right? There's a, there's a riskiness that he's adding to it because, um.

Again, we wanna be careful how we say this. Um, God's love is not reckless in the sense that we would normally think about reckless, but it's reckless in the sense that it, it es assumes sort of ordinary conventions of safety. Right? Right. That's not really what's at play here. Like the, the fact is Christ presents the scenario where you, you go after one lost sheep and leave your 99 in the open country or in Matthew, it's on the mountains.

Like that's the normal expected course here, such that if you are the person who won't do that, then you are the one that's out of the ordinary. But then he goes on to say, and this is where, where I think he's just such a master, he's such a master at setting a logical trap. Here he says, um. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors saying to them, rejoice with me for I have found my sheep that was lost.

And again, this is the expected answer. This is not some unusual situation where like people are like, oh man, he like, he had a party 'cause he found a sheep. That's strange. This is what, what would be expected, right? This would be the normal response. But then he says, just so I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.

He is able, in the course of like. 30 words, like this is a short, short response. He's able to show them that their response to, to sinners is totally out of the ordinary. Like it's a, it's sort of an insane response. Um, he positions going after the one sheep and leaving the 99 as the sane response and leaving the, you know, leaving the one to be lost, leaving the sinners and tax collectors to be lost.

That's the insane response. Right. That's the one that like, nobody would do that though. Why would anybody do that? But then he goes to show like, but that's exactly what you're doing.

[00:47:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Right. And he

[00:47:56] Tony Arsenal: says, what you should be doing is rejoicing with me for, I found my lost, she. Right. He shifts. He shifts.

He's now the man in the parable saying, um, not just, uh, not just rejoice or not just I'm rejoicing, but he's summoning them to rejoice with him over the salvation of these lost sinners. And that is the normal expected response. And then he, he shows like there will be this rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents more so than if there was a, but, and we should address this too.

He's not saying that there is a such thing as a righteous person who needs no repentance. Right? He's saying like, even if there were 99 righteous people who need to know repentance, even if that was somehow the case, there would be more joy. There is more joy, there will be more joy over the sinner who repents than over a hun 99 people who didn't need to be saved.

Right? He makes the sin, the, the, um, Pharisees and the scribes look like total chumps and totally like. Totally self-absorbed and turned inwards on themselves in this tiny little master stroke that you wouldn't even, you wouldn't even think that that was part of the point. If it wasn't for the fact that it was positioned right after verse 15, one and two.

You just wouldn't get that from this parable. That there is this sort of like rhetorical SmackDown going on that I think is, is important for us to, to latch onto a little bit here.

[00:49:18] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, why is our podcast not three hours? Because there's so much I want to say, so. I'm totally with you. I like what you brought up about this recklessness of God, and I'm with you.

We shouldn't define that in the same way. Maybe we can modify it. I might say like His love is recklessly spend thrift. That is, we see when Paul says like God has lavished his love on us, like these big verbs that they are real. Yeah. It's not just hyper rip hyperbole or just like flowery language. And I think as you're speaking, what really occurred to me, what really kind of came through with what you're saying is, okay, what is this cost?

Why is he so particular to go after this one? And I think it's because it's, he's looking for his sheep. So these are his children. Yes. It's not just, I think Christ is out in the world because he will find his children. He will find the one who is. His own. So he is looking for his own sheep. One of his, one of his fold.

So like the sheep I might find in the world is the one that God has been seeking to save, even one of whom knows his name. That's like John 10, right? So one of, I think our problem is understanding this parable has to do with the when of our salvation. You know, we generally think it's at the time that, you know, we believe.

The people are those given to God before the foundation of the world. And God sees us as his people before we were ever born, even before the world began. And when we believe it is just our Lord finding us as his last sheep and we're returned to the fold. So he always goes after that one. So we'll learn more.

Like you said, when we look at Matthew's account about who are those other 90 nines. So we can set that aside, I suppose, for now. But it really is a matter of our status before Adam, before the fall, and then after Adam, after the fall, while all men fell with Adam. So also did God's people, which he had chosen before time began.

And so this idea of going after the one is bringing back into the fold that who is his child though, who he has made a promise, a covenantal promise to bring into the kingdom of heaven. I was thinking as well of this amazing quote and like, what that all means about God's love for us, which again, is just more than like, isn't it nice that when you are out in the world somewhere like God came to find you?

Yeah, that's fantastic. But I think it's even more than that. Like this is where I think we really need to dive into what it means that he's going after his sheep. It's, uh, Thomas Goodwin wrote this once about, uh, Christ's joy. He wrote this, Christ's own joy, comfort, happiness, and glory are increased and enlarged.

By his showing grace and mercy in pardoning relieving and comforting his members here on earth. And what I hear in that is something that I think is wild. In other words, Jesus, I don't think, doesn't just want us to draw on his grace and mercy because it just vindicates atoning work. Because like if Vindicates that he is an act shepherd, his love is active, he's out there in the field, he's going after his own, he's like you said, he's laying them on our on his shoulders and then he comes back and rejoices.

He wants us to draw on his grace and mercy because it is inherently who he is. And he drew near to us in this incarnation so that his joy and ours could rise and fall together, which is insane that God would come and condescend to that degree that in his giving mercy and in ours receiving it, that Goodwin is basically saying here that Christ gets more joy and comfort than we do when we come to him for help and mercy.

That is when he finds us, when he comes and celebrates that there's been restoration, that that celebration is real and that it forgives him and brings him great joy. What kind of love is that?

[00:52:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:52:49] Jesse Schwamb: That that is so dedicated to seeking his children out. That his joy is made greater as it were, in a sense, by him very much doing that, and by us repenting and coming before him, such that Jesus is never tired, flustered, or frustrated when we come to him for fresh forgiveness or for renewed.

Pardon? Or we find ourselves outside of the fold when we're distressed, when we have needs, when we're empty. I think this is the whole point of this parable. He comes to rescue us. He comes to heal over and over and over again because we are his children and he always goes and finds his own sheep.

[00:53:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:53:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, well, as we said, this'll be a, uh, at least two part, probably three or four part episode. Yeah. Um, because it's so good. There's so much here and so good. You know, as we kind of alluded to when we were, we sort of introed this, this parable along with the, in Luke at least, along with the following one, and the one after that really are one set of teaching.

Um, we are gonna jump into, into Matthew and how Matthew positions the parable a little bit differently. And I say that to say Christ positions the parable differently within his teaching. Um, but the variations are important and this is why, this is why God's word is so great, right? Yes. We could have just had like one version of this, one instance that this teaching was delivered, but God saw fit to preserve multiple, multiple applications of this one parable.

And this also tells us that like. The people who wanna say that a parable only has one point. Um, I think maybe like the Bible itself is against you on that because this parable is ba more or less the same in Matthew in terms of the actual words. There's some minor variations, but there nothing substan substantively different in the words, but where it comes in the context of the teaching gives it a very different flavor.

Not a different meaning entirely, but a very different flavor. So I'm excited to, to keep going on this. Um, we'll go through, we'll talk about the coin, we'll talk about the lost son, uh, the lost sons, the para prodigal, God. I mean that one has a thousand different ways to label it. Um, but I'm really stoked about this series so we don't have to spend a lot of time like landing the plane here 'cause we're not even gonna really land the plane.

We're just gonna keep going. So we're cruising at 20,000

[00:55:10] Jesse Schwamb: feet easy.

[00:55:11] Tony Arsenal: So we would love it if you'd join us in our Telegram channel. We mentioned it earlier, but you can go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, uh, that is just a little corner of the internet that we've sliced out. It's a little chat program that you can run on your phone or in a browser.

Um, lots of different conversations happening at any given point, uh, but all of them are God centered. All of them Mar God glorifying, and it really is just a genuine, friendly place to be. There's not, uh, there's, there's been very little fighting or conflict. There's been almost nobody besides bots that get kicked outta the channel.

Um, it's a very low key, very low chill, low risk environment. Low chill, uh, low chill. It's not low chill. It's high chill, high chill, uber chill. It's the uber chill,

[00:55:53] Jesse Schwamb: uber chill. Um,

[00:55:54] Tony Arsenal: but you can check it out. T Me slash reform brotherhood. We'd love to have you jump in the conversation. Um, you know, find some new food to taste and take a video of it, uh, of yourself.

Or, you know, if you need prayer, there's a, there's a place for that. If you want some memes, there's a place for that. But check it out.

[00:56:10] Jesse Schwamb: Normally, this is where I'd say, here's what we learned in this conversation, but since it's gonna be ongoing instead, I'm just gonna end with a little question for you, Tony.

I'll ask it to you first and then I'll give you my answer and that, and I'll challenge everybody to answer this themselves. I think it'll help shape how we're just thought, think about what we just heard and also the couple weeks ahead. But, um, what's one time that you lost something and were overjoyed that you found it?

So for me, and this I think generally. It's often small things. I remember this time I was going out for a run. My wife was shopping. Now I don't do this anymore, so don't anybody get ideas about this. But I used to, don't do this anymore. I used to take my keys 'cause I didn't wanna run with them, like, you know, banging around in my pants while I was running.

I used to take them and put them under this like, medium-sized rock that was like right outside in the bushes by my, my house. And so I did that. I went for a run and I came back and I saw my wife Sky was here. And so I just went into the house. I guess I just realized I could go in the door, wasn't gonna be locked anymore.

And then of course the next day I went to go to work and like lost my mind. I, I just couldn't remember where the keys were searched everywhere, like tore up everything. Made lots of accusations of myself and everybody else about whether to move the keys. Maybe you've had this experience, maybe it's just me that needs to be more sanctified.

And so I remember when finally like it occurred to me like, oh. If they're outside, I went and grabbed them, you know, you turn over that rock and there they are in all their glory. They've never moved. They were there from the beginning. And I remember this vividly. My wife already like long left for work and I called her and I was like, I found the keys.

I found the keys. I'm so happy. And she was just like, okay. It's just like, are you good now? I was like, yeah. And for her it was like, that's no real news to me. Like, okay, great. Like you lost them. I'm glad that you fought them. But it did exemplify for me that really in the finding of something that joy is made, consummate, incomplete in the rejoicing over it with somebody else.

Yeah.

[00:58:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:58:07] Jesse Schwamb: Um, so let's say you can you think of like a time where like you lost something at big or small and then you were just overjoyed to find it?

[00:58:13] Tony Arsenal: The only thing I can think of, um, we have this little Noah's arc kit, um, for, for the kids. And this was before Adeline, uh, came around. Um, and we lost the little Noah figure.

We couldn't find it for a really, really long time. This is Noah. And, um, this was back when we were living in the parsonage. Augie was, uh, up jumping on the couch and he wanted to put the cushions down onto the floor in order to jump off the couch onto the floor. And when he pulled the cushion back, the little Noah figure was there and I was so excited to find it.

And I was like, Augie, we found Mr. Noah. We found Mr. And the funny part is that. And I know why you're laughing so much. The funny part is that this was also being converted to text to speech somehow, and it got sent out to our entire family group chat. Um, so everybody got a good laugh outta that, but there was, and he was so excited.

Uh, he doesn't even know who Mr. Noah is at this point, but he was excited that we found something. Um, and you know, there, there is also an element too that like sometimes something is lost and it changes the nature of things. Like for sure that Noah's arc kit was no longer Noah's a, it was just some animals on a boat.

That's true. Until we found Mr. Noah and put it all back together. Um, so that's probably the, the example of that comes to mind for me. I'm sure there's a better one floating around in here somewhere, but I, I'm pretty sleep deprived right now, so. May not come to the surface too easily.

[00:59:28] Jesse Schwamb: You, I, I really think it's the smaller things in particular that prove the point.

It's an argument from the lesser to the greater. So in that vein, now it's your turn. So go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood. Hang out in the telegram chat. And I have no doubt this will be part of, uh, this week's discussion from the episode is tell us something that, tell us the story. 'cause you, we know you got one where you lost something that was yours.

It was precious to you, no matter how valuable it was economically speaking, and you found it and you were overjoyed. And I think we got to tap into a little bit of that sensibility as we think about the weeks that are ahead for us.

[01:00:03] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[01:00:04] Jesse Schwamb: But more than anything, I think we gotta remember from our conversation tonight that Christ love.

Is an active working love. Just as the shepherd did not sit still, the wailing is lost sheep and, and we're gonna see the same kind of behavior in the other peril, the parables that follow. So our blessed Lord did not sit still in heaven pitting sinners. He comes to us, he came to us, and he continues to draw to himself those who are sheep, who hear his voice.

Let that be your encouragement this week.

[01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to end the show. So, Jesse, until next week, honor everyone.

[01:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Jesus's parable of the dragnet from Matthew 13:47-50. They examine how this often-overlooked parable reveals profound truths about God's kingdom, final judgment, and the ultimate separation of the righteous from the wicked. The hosts explore the rich Old Testament connections, particularly to Habakkuk, and demonstrate how this parable complements the parable of the wheat and tares while emphasizing the judgment aspect of God's kingdom. Through careful textual analysis and theological reflection, they remind listeners that God's sovereignty extends over both salvation and judgment, challenging believers to live faithfully in light of the coming sorting.

The hosts identify a paradigm-shifting perspective in this parable: the kingdom of Heaven includes not just the blessing of the righteous but also the judgment of the wicked. Tony notes that Christians often think of God's kingdom only in terms of the elect enjoying fellowship with God, but this parable reveals that God's sovereignty and kingship extend to His judgment as well. The dragnet gathers everything in its path - both the "good" and "bad" fish - demonstrating that all people will be brought under Christ's authority for evaluation. This understanding challenges the common notion that hell is somehow outside God's domain. Rather, even the punishment of the wicked falls under God's sovereign reign. This more comprehensive view of God's kingdom reminds believers that God's authority is absolute and extends to every corner of creation and every spiritual reality.

Jesse highlights how the specific term "dragnet" (as translated in the LSB) carries significant theological weight. Unlike a typical fishing net cast from a single location, a dragnet was stretched between two boats and systematically pulled toward shore, catching everything in its path. This imagery powerfully communicates that no one will escape God's judgment - the net catches all kinds of fish indiscriminately. The hosts connect this to Old Testament passages, particularly in Habakkuk, where God's judgment is described as a net that captures entire nations. This emphasis on the comprehensive nature of judgment confronts our culture's belief that individuals might somehow avoid accountability before God. The parable teaches that all people will face judgment, with the difference being not whether they are caught in the net, but how they are categorized once caught. For believers, this underscores the necessity of being found "in Christ" when the sorting occurs.

"Either way, you can't escape the net. This is profound because I think so much of our culture thinks they're gonna escape the net or the nets. They're gonna be able to get outside of the net." - Jesse Schwamb

"Hell is the absence of, is the presence of God absent grace, right? Unmediated... It's God's unmediated, absolute entire wrath poured out on wicked sinners. That's what hell is." - Tony Arsenal

"We gotta sit down at the table, take our time... Have the family style dinner passed around. Talk to everybody and set aside the time... We're taking our time to enjoy and to savor. And I think you and I are always trying to grow in that to some degree. But here again, we have just a lovely excuse to do a little savoring of the scripture." - Jesse Schwamb

[00:00:45] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 470 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. 

[00:00:53] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. 

[00:00:58] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. How about we start with an incredible understatement. It is a blessing to have the direct teachings of Jesus.

[00:01:09] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes. 

It's 

[00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: end of episode. 

[00:01:11] Tony Arsenal: That's true. 

[00:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: We could just stop there. 

[00:01:12] Jesse Schwamb: We won't, because we've been hanging out in the parables, which I know sometimes people will say to us, wow, your episodes are so definitive. They're just so good. But they, they, it seems to take so long to go through things and I just wanna address everybody right now and say to you.

We hear you. We love you. But we don't care that much about that critique because 

[00:01:33] Tony Arsenal: it's true. 

[00:01:34] Jesse Schwamb: I think what you and I have been finding out is going through these parables is like the difference between like scarfer and a burger while you're driving down the highway versus like sitting down at the table to eat and enjoy like a seven course meal with people that you love like that, the latter of those two.

It takes time in preparing and it takes time to enjoy. Yes. So I like the pace we're going at and we're going into what I'm calling the Jesus nothing but net parable. And you know, some of what I think Jesus does here and we're gonna talk about to set all of this up, is he does have this wonderful and incredible ability, like a goldsmith who's like taking a piece of metal and hammering it out, turning it over, hammering it out.

He's fashioning it into a fixed frame of his desired choosing. But it's almost as if he's, he's prompting his listeners to a type of meditation that is the hammering of truth or a point propounded, and we're about to get to that because he's going to bring some judgment and some fire. And this nothing but net parable.

It hearkens back to something he just said, and he has this tendency in his teaching to say something like, and again, the kingdom of heaven is like this. And also, and again, it's like this. And so here we have yet another one, and I think we've done maybe four or five of these. And again, yeah. And so I say to you, love ones, and again, here we go.

It's gonna be great. Yeah. So Jesus coming with heat and with the fire on this episode and we're gonna try to bring it too, but 

[00:03:01] Tony Arsenal: yeah. And we're not even out of the first chapter of Parable. No. Like we're still in the first chapter of scripture that we've started and we're like. 10 weeks into this series, so, which is great.

I love it. I'm, I'm 

[00:03:12] Jesse Schwamb: all for it. Can't stop. Won't stop. 

[00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: So speaking of things we will not stop doing, we will not stop affirming with or deny against certain things. So as is our custom, Tony, I kick it to you. What do you got for us? 

[00:03:24] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna cheat a little bit. I'm gonna have a, a, a brief denial and then also an affirmation.

We're gonna old school. The denial is, uh, some people noticed, uh, maybe a couple months back, that occasionally in your podcast feed there would be something that would be like, you might also like, and it would be a random episode of some other podcast. 

[00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:03:43] Tony Arsenal: This was an advertising feature that was available to us.

I turned it on to see how it would work. It's generating like a dollar a month. So not, not a big deal, but also pretty passive. People could just skip the episode. Right. Uh, the reason I'm, I'm denying this now, is today I realized, and, and your mother was gracious enough to call me and ask me if I knew this.

I, I had heard it already, but, uh, the, the episode they decided to put in our feed today was somebody interviewing a psychic. So I immediately just to get out in front of it because I'm sure somebody out there is gonna be like, Tony's got psychics on his pod. No, I, I immediately emailed our podcast host 'cause I couldn't figure out how to turn it off and said, shut this off.

Excellent. So there's, there's no way for us to, to like specify we can, we can, um, eliminate certain categories. So I tried to eliminate categories that I thought would have blanket, like blatantly objectionable. Uh, content, you know, other religions, new age spirituality. The show that it was on, I think is like a productivity podcast, but it's one of those productivity podcasts where they kind of interview everyone and, and anyone, and they happen to be interviewing a psychic.

So if that came to your ear holes because of our feed, please accept my sincere apology. Uh, we certainly don't want to be endorsing or, or, uh, or exposing people to that kind of nonsense. So we've turned it off. It was a small amount of revenue, but even if it was a large amount of revenue, we would, I wouldn't tolerate that no matter how much money we were generating.

So if it hasn't left your feed yet, it will soon. It takes a little while for it to kind of update. It won't update until I've published a new episode. So by the time you're hearing this, probably it's disappeared. Um. But thank you for everyone who brought it to our attention. And again, I'm, I'm sorry that it happened enough of that.

[00:05:25] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming. It's a very exciting affirmation. I'm super stoked about it. Jesse and I actually talked a little bit about this before, so a couple, I don't know, it was maybe five, six months ago, Jesse affirmed a book called The Will of the Many, uh, which is a, a book by a guy, uh, named James Islington, I-S-L-I-N-G-T-O-N.

Um, it, it sort of presents itself when you first start reading it as like, almost like Harry Potter in Rome. Like it's like, that sounds about right, right? It's, it's kind of like a guy, like a, he's not like a child like Harry Potter or Percy Jackson. He's, he's, uh, probably like a late, I think late teens probably is, is where you're supposed to see him 15, 16 years old.

Somewhere in there, he gets kind of swept up into. Uh, like an academy, he gets adopted into a, like a prestigious family and he gets swept up into an academy and he's learning about these skills and this sort of like magic system that exists in his world. And there's a mysterious cataclysm that happened and it presents itself very much as like a very typical kind of, um.

Prodigy swept up into a world he doesn't fully understand Harry Potter kind of story. And then literally you read the last chapter, the story resolves, and there's an epilogue. And you realize that the story is entirely different than it, it anything you could have possibly conceived. It was, um, I haven't quite gone back and read the first book a second time, although I probably will.

Um, you tell me, Jesse, there was no, there was, I'm not gonna spoil it because it's part of the fun of getting just knocked on your butt on this. But there was nothing in the book that I could think of that even closely hinted at. 

[00:07:05] Jesse Schwamb: No. 

[00:07:05] Tony Arsenal: This weird twist at the end. 

[00:07:06] Jesse Schwamb: No way. 

[00:07:07] Tony Arsenal: Um, so the reason I'm going into all that detail is the, the final or the second book in the series.

I don't know how many are planned. I would assume it's probably three. But the second book in the series, which is called The Strength of the Few, just came out, uh, it came out just a few days ago. It's November 15th when we're, we're, uh, recording this, and it came out on November 11th. Um. If you have not read, uh, will of the many, please just go like, turn off the podcast right now.

Go listen or go read that book or get the audio book. Do it. It's super good. Um, you know, there's, um, it, I won't say that. Like there's nothing objectionable in the book. Um, you know, they have their own version of profanity and stuff that, that isn't the same profanity as ours, but like, it's the same intention as, as what we would say.

Um, but you're not gonna run into, there was no sexual content whatsoever. Even hint to that. Um, I think there was like one kiss in the entire book. Um, there really is, uh, from what I can tell, there really is no genuine romantic through line. Um, there was kind of a, sort of like a childhood infatuation or like a young teen infatuation at this academy, but it was such a small, small plot point and it doesn't sound like it's gonna be coming back around much as a big plot point.

Um. But there was nothing objectionable. Um, the violence is not particularly descriptive. Um, it's a little bit descriptive, but, um, it's pretty tame. It's just really good writing, um, really good writing, super creative, world building. Um, it's one of those things where, um, actually. A lot of books like Harry Potter for example, the character knows almost nothing about this new world that they're coming into.

And so you learn everything along with the, along with this person. This is more like the Farer trilogy or the Farer series where the, the main character actually knows quite a bit about what's going on, but the exposition of it is not like, um, it's not big exposition dumps. It's very organic. And actually there's, he leaves you with a ton of question marks about how this mysterious will system works.

Right? Um, you learn more about it as you go into the second book. So I'm recommending the whole series specifically 'cause the second book came out. I don't know when the third book is gonna come out. I would imagine it'll be a while. Um, there. Relatively long books. It'll take you a little bit of time to get through 'em.

But they're super good, they're super reasonable. Um, and they're, again, there, there's really not anything objectionable, which is hard to find even in like fantasy writing these days. Um, usually you run into some sort of the far series and trilogy as an example, I wrote, got through the first trilogy. I thought it was really good.

I started the second, uh, trilogy and I made it like two chapters in and I, there was all sorts of just unnecessary sexual content, so I just stopped reading it. I haven't found anything in these books that's even close to that. So first book is Will of the many. Second book is Strength of the Few, uh, and it is, uh, called the h or the Hierarchy Trilogy is LinkedIn has some other books that I haven't read.

I would assume they're very good, but I haven't read them yet. But yeah, check it out. It's so good. I can't recommend it enough. At least so far I haven't finished the second book, but it's, they're, they're just really good fun writing. It's not quite young adult fantasy fiction, so Right. It takes a little bit of work, um, to get through it.

Although it's not difficult reading. It just is not, um, you know, this isn't the per Percy Jackson series where you're gonna read four or five chapters in a sitting. Like, you're probably gonna read one chapter or two chapters a day and, and sort of, that's gonna be the pace you're probably go at unless you have like the week off work or something.

[00:10:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's incredibly clever in its storytelling. Even the title doesn't give anything away. You'll get a sense of what it means almost immediately, and yet you will not comprehend the fullness of what it means until really the whole thing is over. It keeps you guessing. The characters are fun, they're deep, they're interesting.

The dialogue is clever, but mostly I was impressed with like the world building. It does follow that kinda familiar, magical school type trope, but not in a way that's too tired. So. If you want more evidence that it is actually good on Good Reads, it has 28,000 reviews and a score of 4.6. Yeah. Now, if you're keeping track at home, I know some of you loved ones are, you should know that the highest rated book on Good Reads is over 10,000 ratings is Words of Ratings by Brandon Sanderson.

And that comes in at 4.76. So this thing is not far behind that. It's almost universally adored for its creativity. Yeah. It's just entertaining value and how unique it is. So I'm with you. I didn't expect to get as into it as I did. This is one of those that caught me by surprise. And so I was like, oh, I am, I'm definitely down for this.

So I'm behind you. I gotta get my hands on the next copy I can, I can get and get reading. 

[00:11:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. It, it's um, it's a lot of classic fantasy fiction style. Sort of science, fantasy fiction style, um, tropes, but they're, they're remixed and sort of like synthesized together in a way that's very organic and genuine 

[00:12:00] Jesse Schwamb: for sure.

[00:12:00] Tony Arsenal: There's a little bit of hunger games, there's a lot of, a lot of Harry Potter, you know, magical Academy. Um, there's a lot of just sort of good fantasy fiction, almost like Dragon Lance, kind of like world building. Um, what I, what I really love about a good fantasy fiction book is when you can tell the world is bigger than what's going on right in front of you.

Right. But you, but they, he doesn't need to tell you about all of it. 

Right? Right. 

Like, you can tell there's stuff going on and you hear about it, you read about it in the book, but it's, there's things going on in the rest of the world, um, that may or may not come into play later. But yeah, it's, it keeps you guessing.

Um, and, and again, the only thing that I maybe would've changed slightly about the first book is I would've loved. I when there's a really good twist at the end of the book, one of my favorite things is to go back and, and think about like, what did I miss that brought me here? And I'm not sure there's anything in the original part of the book, um, in the, the main body of the book that actually points you towards the twist.

Right? It's like genuinely a totally new. And I think that's on purpose. Um, I, again, I'm, I'm trying really hard not to give away spoilers 'cause I think that 

it's 

[00:13:10] Tony Arsenal: so tough. I think that our audience actually is really, is, is the kind of audience that would really like this. Okay. Uh, even to the point that like the, the first book is really grounded in sort of this like mythical Roman Romanesque latinized culture.

Um, it's not supposed to be like ancient Rome. It's not, I don't think it is. I mean, I guess we could find out later on that this is supposed to be some future. You know, cataclysm has reduced the culture back, you know, thousands of years. It could find that out. I don't think we're going to, but, um. The culture is based on, on like ancient roaming culture.

So there's actually a lot of like stoicism principles built into it that I've found that I think are really useful. Um, I've already highlighted you. I can tell when I'm reading a good fiction book if I really like it when I'm highlighting phrases in it, right? Because the writing is not good, and they're sort of a philosophical undercurrent that I, I'm really digging.

So check it out again. James Islington is the author, uh, will of the Many is the first book. Strength of the Few is the, the second book. I don't know what the third book's gonna be called. I'm sure he knows what it's gonna be called. The Lord knows what it's gonna be called, but I'm sure that will be recommending that book when it comes out as well.

[00:14:17] Jesse Schwamb: For sure, man, this whole sound, this whole intro sounded like we should just do an offshoot, which is like the reform book cast. That was, that was such a strong advertisement for that book, including like, you're going back to the titling again. I just wanna, I just wanna affirm you in that, that was very commendable.

That was like a solid podcasting right there. 

[00:14:33] Tony Arsenal: We should actually do, I don't know how we would do that with a fiction book this long. We should do some book, book club casts on I agree. This series once it's all out, because there's a lot to chew on in this. Yes. In this story. Okay. There's a lot of moral questions.

There's a, I, I don't know if there's anything in the book that would be explicitly theological, like they're not drawing from those kinds of principles. Um, you know, I guess there's. Mention of Gods. So I think there probably are theological undercurrents, but that's not really part of it. It's, it's kind of like the ancient Roman culture where like nobody really believes that the gods existed.

Yeah. 

[00:15:08] Jesse Schwamb: It's nominal. 

[00:15:09] Tony Arsenal: Um, yeah. But there's lots of philosophical undercurrents and things to chew on in these books that would be fun for us to, to talk through and work through a little bit. 

[00:15:17] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I we gotta put it on the calendar. 

[00:15:20] Tony Arsenal: Let's make it 

[00:15:20] Jesse Schwamb: happen. And 

[00:15:21] Tony Arsenal: you know what else you could do? If you happen to be reading this book and you'd like to talk about it now and you don't wanna wait.

Oh, that's 

[00:15:26] Jesse Schwamb: so good. 

[00:15:26] Tony Arsenal: You don't wanna wait until, you know, 2029 when we get around to the next series. Um, you can join the Telegram chat, you can go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, uh, and that will bring you to our little corner of the internet that we've carved out. Uh, it's an open channel so you can jump in and read what's going on.

Uh, it really is, I think, one of the friendliest, most charitable kind places you're gonna find on that sort of the Christian internet. It's really sad that we have to talk about the charitable part of Christian internet versus like the rest of the Christian Internet. Uh, but that's the way it is. It's funny.

Uh, I got a Facebook message. I I have Facebook Messenger on my phone 'cause there's a few people that I keep in touch with on Facebook. Messenger that I don't have any other contact with. And I got a message on our Reform Brotherhood Facebook Messenger channel, which we haven't used in ages. Whoa. Someone who stumbled upon the podcast and started listening from the first episode, I think they were on like episode 1 68 when they messaged me.

Wow. And I said, well, you're not gonna hear about this for quite a while, but you should join the Telegram chat. So I think, I think he jumped in there. Um, that's great. So yeah, jump in there, chat about this, chat about so else and everybody. Um, I mean, there's, there's been discussions about other fiction books, um, that have come up the same bright, the, um, Sanderson series has come up.

Yes. Um, people like talk about the, the stuff they're reading. So that would be really fun if you wanted to jump in and, and chat through this. No spoilers though. This is the kind of book where like you really. Being blindsided by the, the twist at the end was part of that was really like delightful. So I don't wanna spoil it for anybody.

[00:16:55] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. Yeah. You, you definitely wanna experience it in this way. Trust me. 

[00:16:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, 

[00:16:59] Jesse Schwamb: it is, it is good. We can't say anything more about it because either we'll give it away if we just keep talking. Or we're just gonna continue to gush over how genius the whole thing has put together. It's worth your time.

It's true. 

[00:17:09] Tony Arsenal: Jesse, save us. What are you affirming or denying today? 

[00:17:11] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, a book. And this sounds like I'm about to pull like a Jesus juke, but that's not my intention at all Here. I'm affirming with a Bible translation just because I've, I've gone back to this one for a while as we've been looking at the parables, and I find it delightful.

So I'm coming with a strong, strong affirmation for the scriptures. And if you're looking for maybe another translation to add into the mix, into the piety, I would suggest going with the Legacy standard Bible. And if you're not familiar with that, with what that is, so imagine if two twin translations, the New American Standard Bible and the Legacy standard Bible, the LSB, so the older twin, like the NASB, he's like the kind of guy who irons his socks.

You know, he is, he's very literal. He's proper speaks like someone who proofreads street signs for fun. He's been doing this for a long time, and because of that, he's really beloved, because he carefully sticks to an exacting word definition and translation of the original text. But sometimes if you've, if you've hung out with NISB for a little while, sometimes he's so formal that you can feel like he's reading a grocery list in like Old Testament Hebrew cadence.

So enter then relatively new, but the younger twin LSB shows up and he's basically like, listen, I, I love my older brother. I wanna do everything he does, but I'm going to double down on making even more exact, which I know sounds crazy given what I just said about the Hebrew cadence. But hear me out. So if the N-N-A-S-B says something, you know, if the NF when the NSB translates like Lord.

For Yahweh, it's like the capitalized LORD and the Ls, LSB, which I appreciate is like, nah, we're just gonna use Yahweh, you know? And the NSB says, listen, we'll use slave only when it's needed. And the Ls, LSB is like, if the Greek says Doos. I'm saying slave and you can't stop me. You know? And the NASB sometimes it does, I think avoid startling you and the LSB is like, listen, if the original text startles you Good.

So I've just been enjoying as we go through the parables, and we'll get to this a little bit tonight, some of that like particular language, some of that, like the vibe that's happening here. I mean, the LSB is is basically like the NASB turned up to 11. It's stricter, it's nerdier, it's even a little bit more literal and it's proudly flexing every time.

It preserves its original language nuance and there is, I think a place for that. The strange thing about it though, I'd say with all that. Being enumerated is that I do think sometimes it reads a little easier than the NAB. All these translations have their of their place, but I would say it's definitely worth adding into the mix.

You're gonna get some lovely and different perspective by going through and taking a look at, at what the l SB has to say. And we're gonna get a little bit of that tonight so you can, I forget who publishes it. Do you remember off the top of your head? 

[00:20:02] Tony Arsenal: I think it's the same. Well, MacArthur's group was really instrumental behind it.

I don't remember. Yes. I don't remember the name of it. The name of the organization. That's 

[00:20:10] Jesse Schwamb: steadfast. Is it? Well, it doesn't matter. It 

[00:20:11] Tony Arsenal: might be, yeah, it might 

[00:20:12] Jesse Schwamb: be. I think it might be steadfast. Yes, that is true. If, if, I don't think it should be put up by this by any means. MacArthur actually is a study bible in.

In the l SB translation, he was a particular fan of it. And, uh, so pick that up. If, if you want it, that's your prerogative. Of course. Well, I think any version of it is pretty good. The psalms are particularly good in it, but I do love that you're gonna get all the, the normal, like peace wise stuff with the NASB, where like all the quotations from the different parts of scripture will be in small caps.

There's a lot of like little fun things that draw, like italicized words will alert you to the fact that that word is not actually in the Greek of the Hebrew, but is merely there for the English equivalent. And then you're gonna get yes, the proper name for God in every place, and you're gonna get a lot more detail.

So again, I like to think of these things as like the, the, it's like the LSB is like the NASB, but with a personal trainer or grammar coach and unlimited black coffee. So it's just different and yeah, by kind of doubling down on trying to get like a firm little grasp of what the original texts say. 

[00:21:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Yeah. Little, uh, little Bible translation, lesson tutorial, I guess. Um. I never knew this even through like seminary, I never really caught onto this, but, um, when you see different. The way that English translations are named often tell you a lot about the history of the translation, 

[00:21:33] Jesse Schwamb: right? 

[00:21:33] Tony Arsenal: So we have things like the English standard version, the new international version, or the, the NIV or the uh, legacy Standard Bible.

When you see something like Standard Bible, if you, if you look, there's a number of translations that end in standard Bible. There's the New American Standard Bible, there's the Christian Standard Bible, right? There's the Holman Broadman, Christian Standard Bible. There's now the Legacy Standard Bible. All of those, all of those translations that end in standard Bible, they all are sort of like within the same, I dunno, genetic heritage of they all trace back to, I don't, I don't know what it is for the, for the standard Bible series, but they all trace back to a singular English text, right?

And so when you come out with a new translation, it's very rare that a brand new translation of the Bible is entirely from the Greek. So. The English standard version was a, was a updated version or a, a slightly different translation philosophy from the new revised or the NRSV, the new revised standard version, which was a slightly updated version of the revised standard version, which was an updated version of the authorized standard version, which was the King James version.

Right. So that's right. So when you look at the English standard version, it comes in a lineage that actually goes back to the King James version, the NASB, I don't know exactly where it goes back to, um, but it goes back to a different translation philosophy and a different sort of base English text.

That's where you find a lot of the interesting things like textual features, like certain italicized words tell you something. The LSB really is kind of the English standard version of that, of that, uh, line of Bibles Enus. Yeah. So it's, it's kind of the most modern version of the standard Bible series.

Um. If you look at the CSB and the LSB, there's very, very little differences. They're very similar. And it, it's funny too, because the CSB was originally developed by the Southern Baptist Convention because they wanted to use an updated version, but they didn't want to pay royalties on the English standard version.

So they developed, and that's fine. Like that's, that's a little quirk of history. It's not a, there's no judgment or commentary whatsoever in there. Um, but they, they selected a Bible translation and then they updated it in order to, um, have their own version of the Bible that, um, was there. So all of that to say that LSB is a great translation.

Um, it's funny you are super jazzed up about translating as Yahweh. That's my version of my body was broken for you. Like that's my version of it. I translating the, the divine name as Yahweh in English, uh, that triggers me a little bit. We can talk about that sometime, but, um. Yeah, so I'm not a huge fan of that, that feature, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's a great translation.

I've done the LSB, um, in the past for my year through the Bible reading. Great. So I've read the entire thing. It's great and it's, it's a great translation. Um, like I said, it really feels like the l like the English standard version, um, you're reading a different base text, but the translation philosophy is very similar.

Um, it's not quite formal equivalence, which is what the ESV is. It's much closer to a literal translation. Um, so I wouldn't try to put them on a spectrum, but, um, they're very similar. If you're comfortable reading the ESV and you're just looking for something a little bit different, um, then the LSB is gonna feel very, very familiar and very much at home.

It's gonna be a very similar, um, cadence and reading and, and even structure of the text is very similar. 

[00:25:04] Jesse Schwamb: And it just so turns out that we can put a little bit of that difference in the practice right now because if we go and find ourselves in Matthew chapter 13, beginning of verse 47, we've got yet again.

Another incredible teaching from Jesus about what the Kingdom of Heaven is like. And Tony, as you've been saying before, as we've been discussing this, I want to give everybody that great perspective off the top right from the jump of this. As you hear this, listen for the nouns and the verbs, the kingdom of Heaven is like, don't just go to the first thing that happens there, but the whole encapsulation of what we're gonna be told.

And the reason why I brought up the lsb is because I think it gives us a little bit of a true different perspective. And to just start out some of that comparison, if you were to go to your, just your standard. ESV version. Now again, the headings, the scripture break, the, all of that stuff is we know something that is not divinely inspired.

It is interesting though, how different translators and commentators have tried to sort out or provide some of that encapsulation of the topic at hand by inserting these little titles or subtitles in the ESV. This section is called the parable of the net. Now, interestingly, and I think this is gonna be something fun for us to talk about, just generally, is that in the LSB it just says a dragnet.

So what's interesting here is we're getting something more specific than just net. So let me, let me read, I'll read you to everybody from not read you. We'll save that for the horrible rec psychic recommendations that we do not condone. Let me, let me read to everyone from Matthew chapter 13, a dragnet or the parable of the nets.

This is Jesus speaking, and again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea and gathering fish of every kind. And when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach and they sat down and gathered the good fish in the containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age, the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous and will throw them into the fiery furnace.

In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

[00:27:08] Tony Arsenal: It's, uh, it's a pretty stark parable and it should feel super familiar, right? Because this is not, um, this is not the first time in this chapter that we've heard basically the same parable, 

right? 

Um, this is is almost identical in terms of the meaning and the structure and even the like order of things, um, to the parable of the wheat and the tears.

So again, we see Jesus, um, and. Jesus is teaching this, but we see Matthew also arranging this in specific ways that highlights sort of this inner weaving interlocking function in chapter 13, where parables that are similar are sometimes right next to each other. We saw that last week. There's the parable of the pearl, the parable of the treasure in the field, um, that are immediately next to each other and mean basically the same thing.

Now we have the parable of the wheat and the TAs and the parable of the dragnets that are separated by quite a bit, but they mean basically the same thing. So it's interesting to see this different arrangement in how it works, but this is a, this is another example of kind of an eschatological parable, right?

That teaches us not just about, um, the kingdom of Heaven as it was sort of like present in Christ Day. There are some parables that are focusing more on like what the Kingdom of Heaven is like for us right now. And then there are some parables that are sort of focused on what the Kingdom of Heaven is like in its kind of eschatological fulfillment.

This is one of those s. 

[00:28:33] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's good. That's actually something I wanted to hit on right away because I thought let's define it at the end and then kind of go back into all the other lovely details. This is heavy, heavy judgment. Yeah, and you're right, of course, it plays right along the. Side the parable of the TAs and the wheat.

What's interesting though, in terms of its distinction is whereas I think the parable of the wheat and the TAs focuses like we talked about on that intervening time between Jesus' inauguration of the kingdom and the end of the age during which both he and the devil are at work in the world leading up to that final judgment, the focus on this parable is just on the future judgment itself.

It's being very, very clear about that judge. It's all judgment. It's all like, here is the end of the age. And so whereas like the parable again of like the wheat and the tears includes the destruction of the wicked, but lays like less stress, I would say upon like the end way in which the righteous will shine forth as the son of the kingdom of their father.

It's emphasizing this promise of a glorious future for our believers and the parable, this dragnet or the parable of the net or the. Nothing but net places like this emphasis upon like the destruction of the wicked. So again, for anybody who would say that Jesus is not teaching this directly and it's really not sugarcoated because he gives the explanation in the parable itself, which is almost a little bit unusual as well.

It's oftentimes he gives one and then the other often separated in like geography or time or space or location. Yeah. But here they, it's just, it's as if Jesus is saying, just in case this wasn't abundantly clear, I am talking about the eschatological fulfillment of my kingdom. And that in that eschatological fulfillment, the wicked will be punished.

[00:30:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that this parable, um, highlights for me, and this is, this is one of those like working it out in real time. So, so bear with me a little bit. I think sometimes we think of, um. Ooh, I gotta be careful how I say this. I think sometimes because of the way we, um, make appropriately make a firm distinction between law and gospel, and we are very careful to keep the law out of the gospel and the gospel out of the law, we lose sight of the fact that the two are interrelated with each other for sure.

Right. So the law is not, the gospel of the gospel is not the law, but the gospel is also not the gospel without the law, if that makes sense. Um, you have to have the law and understand the law in order to really truly understand the gospel. That's why we, we always wanna preach both the law and the gospel.

This parable is, is, uh, a little bit paradigm shifting because when we think of the kingdom of heaven and the, the, to be fair, the parable of the wheat and the tear should have done this for us too. And, and I'm not sure exactly why it didn't, and maybe that's part of why this parable iss here is to sort of help to make sure we're oriented properly.

[00:31:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. 

[00:31:21] Tony Arsenal: The Kingdom of Heaven in this parable includes the judgment of the wicked. And I think that's something we don't often, we don't often connect and think about. We think in the kingdom of Heaven as God and his elect. When we think of the kingdom of heaven eschatological, we, uh, we think about, um, the, the righteous enjoying fellowship with God forever on the new Earth.

And, you know, heaven comes down to earth and the two be sort of become one in the, the, you know, wedding feast of the Lamb. Um, I didn't mean to make that connection, but I guess it's there in scripture too. Yeah. 

[00:31:54] Jesse Schwamb: Um, 

[00:31:55] Tony Arsenal: the, the fact of the matter is, um, at least as far as I'm reading this parable. Hell is not outside the kingdom of heaven in, in the view of this parable.

Right? That's right. We wanna be careful to distinguish the two. It's not like hell is some cordon off part of God's kingdom or something like that. But the kingdom of heaven, and, and maybe we should think of this more as like the kingship of God. The domain and reign of Christ involves his reign over the punishment of the wicked.

Right? 

[00:32:25] Tony Arsenal: So in this case, the kingdom of heaven is not the good fish that are put into good containers, but it is also the bad fish that are thrown away at the end, the throwing away of the bad fish, which is equated to the throwing of the wicked into the fiery furnace, into the place where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth that falls under the authority and the rain and the kingship of Jesus Christ in his kingdom in the last days.

[00:32:50] Jesse Schwamb: Amen. 

[00:32:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, we cannot lose sight of that. And I, I think we often do. Um, that's, that's maybe why I'm harping on it so much is I think it's very easy for us to think of God's kingdom as just. Just the righteousness, just the reward. 

[00:33:03] Tony Arsenal: But, um, there's a very real element in this parable that it's, it's also pointing to God's sovereignty and his, I think sometimes too, like there's this, um, I understand why people say it this way, and I, I think there's a certain way we can talk about it that it's not inaccurate.

But when people, about people talk about hell being the absence of God, 

[00:33:23] Jesse Schwamb: I I knew you were gonna 

[00:33:24] Tony Arsenal: say that. 

[00:33:24] Jesse Schwamb: Um, 

[00:33:25] Tony Arsenal: it, it's not right. Right. Hell is the absence of, is the presence of God absent grace, right? 

[00:33:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. 

[00:33:31] Tony Arsenal: Unmediated, um, right. It's, it's God's unmediated, absolute entire wrath poured out on wicked sinners.

That's what hell is. That's 

[00:33:39] Jesse Schwamb: right. 

[00:33:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, so we, we can't lose sight of that because if we do, we're missing an aspect of what God is doing and who he is. Right. He prepared vessels for wrath. That's part of God's will. And it feels a little uncomfortable to talk about that sometimes. Um, but the Bible talks about it.

We shouldn't shy away from it. And this, this parable right here is, is all over it. 

[00:33:57] Jesse Schwamb: Okay, you're stealing like everything I wanted to say, but I'm glad you said that because now I can say something else. So I, this is where you led me right back into the net versus dragnet thing because I think actually all of those details are really meant to lead us exactly to that final conclusion.

Not just that like hell itself is under the purview of God, but there's like an active rule in reign even there. 

[00:34:19] Tony Arsenal: Yes. 

[00:34:19] Jesse Schwamb: Over all that's happening. So you're, yes, absolutely. You're of course a hundred percent correct. That is the kingdom. It's, it's not just blessing and benefits and rainbows, it's also the fulfillment of all of the other contrary promises that outside of God's mediated favor and love toward us in Christ that still occur again, his wrath is still his to, to met out and it's his to basically have again, like purview over.

So here's why I think, and this is where the Lsb kind of clued me in that the dragnet might be actually. Important in our understanding of this and why he uses that in particular? This is my theory at least, and I don't think I'm alone in this of course. So I've come to learn that when I thought, when I think about like nets, I have like a really western modern view of nets.

I'm not sure until I start to really think about actually meditate on this parable, what I thought the net was and what they were doing with it. But I think it was like, I was thinking they were just like casting it, like you just like kind of throwing it out of the boats and it would sit in the water and and kind of sink down and then they would just kind of arbitrarily haul it up.

And in that hall they would gather whoever happened to be like within the confines of the net. And I think that's very inaccurate perspective. So evidently dragnet in particular as like the name commonly implies here. Certainly this was, I guess, a technique that was very common on the Sea of Galilee and apparently like the details that the actual like taxonomy of the net itself was such that you're talking about a net, usually spend it between two boats, where at the top of it there might be something that help to float up like a cork and there'd be weights at the bottom and it would be stretched or laid out.

Usually, again, between two boats and then pulled to shore by ropes so that everything in its path would be caught as it's pulled. And so this is brilliant because I think Jesus is no doubt using this as a metaphor for this kind of judgment because it captures clearly the idea of gathering every kind of fish.

Other words, you cannot escape the net. The kingdom of God is the net and the sorting comes later. But that being brought up, like you're saying, Tony brought up into that kingdom, whether for like eternal blessing and, and you know, commendation or eternal punishment and suffering. Either way, you can't escape the net.

This is profound because I think so much of our culture thinks they're gonna escape the net or the nets. They're gonna be able to get outside of the net. So he goes on then of course, to be able to describe like these good and bad kinds of fish. But I think it's worth stopping. Just connecting what you just said.

This idea that all of this, all of this is the judgment of God and all of it is the kingdom of God and the net by coming forward and catching everything that is within its confines, like nothing gets out, is exactly the brilliant kind of metaphor that emphasizes the point you were just making. 

[00:37:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. 

[00:37:06] Tony Arsenal: And you know, um, when we talked about the parable of the wheat and the tears, we sort of circled around a little bit and.

I don't know that I have a great answer for it, but I think maybe I have a little bit more clarity on it. We circled around the fact that when people employ and use the parable of the wheat and the tars, they often sort of say like, well, the field is the church. And so there's people in the church that are saved.

There's, or elect, there are people in the church that are not, and we can't really know the difference. And that's true, but in the parable, when Christ explains it, he says, the field is the world. 

[00:37:39] Jesse Schwamb: Right. 

[00:37:39] Tony Arsenal: And I think this, this parable actually helps us to understand the reason why he says that, right? When he's talking about the parable of the wheat and the terras, it ends in the same place, even though the focus is different, right?

It's focused on sort of the here and the now. And we, we landed very hard on like, part of what we're being taught in that parable is like, know, your, know your role. It's not judgment. Like you're not the one that is supposed to be pulling up the wheat out, you know, trying to find the tears and rooting 'em out and stuff.

But the fact that the field is the world and that the good and the bad grow up together within it is parallel here to the fact that the net is all encompassing, right? So the kingdom of heaven is like a field where there was wheat and tears sewn together, and the field is the world. The kingdom of heaven is like a net that gathers every kind of fish.

It gathers all of them together. All of the fish are in the net together. It's all encompassing. Every single thing is covered. It's really the same parable with a different emphasis and a different picture. But it's, it is this all encompassing picture where it's not a matter of like, God is just scooping.

Right? Again, like I, I keep on coming back to this and I, I had never run into this in these parables before. This is part of why I love this series is because we're really digesting them. Um. 

[00:38:57] Tony Arsenal: The dispensational understanding of the rapture is that God takes all the good people or all of the, all of the believers out of the world.

But in, in these two parables, like in this one, everybody's raptured. Everybody's, everybody's scooped up, right? And they're sorted out after that. In the field, the wheat and the tears, it's the, the tears that are taken first, they're the ones that are pulled up first. Um, this idea that, um, that there's this great sorting that happens before the end.

It doesn't seem to comport with scripture. None of, none of what Christ teaches that I see about the final judgment of things has the believers separated out except at the final judgment. Right? Right. We're gonna, I don't, I don't know if it's classified as a parable, so we may not talk about it, but, but the, the sheep and the goats, right?

The sheep and the goats are together until they're separated and it's not as though they're separated then, then later on, there's another separation, though. The separation is the final judgment in this case, the sorting of, of the fish into the good containers and the throwing away of the bad. That's all one act, right?

It's not like you sort all of the good into one container and then you throw away all the bad. If you think about how this process works, I used to watch, um, like deadliest catch. Did you ever watch that with the 

[00:40:12] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:40:12] Tony Arsenal: The crab fishermen? 

[00:40:13] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, 

[00:40:13] Tony Arsenal: for sure. Right. This is what's going on, right? They, they pull up the crabs, they dump 'em all out on the deck.

They start sorting through them and the ones that are too small or are deformed or aren't crabs, right, they pull up all sorts of other stuff. It's not like they're waiting to throw those back into the ocean until they're all done. They look at one, they put it in a good box, they look at the next one.

It's bad. They throw it back in the ocean. This is the final judgment. This is the final culmination of things, and this parable is showing us that like all of that happens kind of in one movement. The the net drags everything up when they get it ashore. Right. They sit down and they sort it, and the the good is kept and the bad is thrown into, you know, bad.

In this case, in the parable, probably like back into the ocean or just to the side or wherever it might be. In, in the reality and the explanation here, the evil ones are thrown into the fiery furnace. While the good are, presumably it doesn't really talk about the good. That's the other feature of this.

Like there's no statement of what's happening to the good, 

[00:41:12] Jesse Schwamb: right? 

[00:41:13] Tony Arsenal: What's happening to the righteous. It's just assumed that they're being brought into the kingdom of heaven. Um, but the angels will come out, they will separate the evil from righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. This is really, really a parable focusing on the judgment of the wicked.

Yes. Where I do think the parable of the wheat and the tears would, you know, in its eschatological elements really was more focused on the, the destiny of the righteous with sort of like the destiny of the wicked being a a, a corollary. This one is just really focusing on what judgment in the kingdom of God looks like.

[00:41:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right, and I think that would've floored the original hearers. Don't you think this, they're hearing this, there's two things at least I think that really would've like just been shocking to hear. I actually, one of them is this idea of the net because I don't think if I try to understand it in the more of the kind of grand historical and biblical context that Jesus was bearing the lead on this.

Yeah. 

[00:42:03] Jesse Schwamb: This idea of the net being a symbol of judgment of God is very well known and very prolific throughout the Old Testament, and I got a couple. Passages here I wanna throw out for us to consider that. The second thing is, there is something about this sorting of the fish, which sounds very much like, uh, essentially, you know, the, the laws of what is clean and unclean that God gives to his people in Deuteronomy.

But first, going back to your point, it is all judgment. There is judgment for all. So the Christian itself as well, 

[00:42:29] Tony Arsenal: right? 

[00:42:29] Jesse Schwamb: But of course, we're co covered in Christ with that imputed glorious alien righteousness. So all that judgment has been paid forward that you know, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought, my sin not in part with the whole is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more.

Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord on my soul. All of that is true. That is the claim of the Christian. But you're right here, the emphasis is certainly on this judgment and again, wrapped up in this idea of net. So I think just hearing that would've floored them. And here's why I say that. So this is from Ezekiel chapter 32, just verses one through three.

In the 12th year. In the 12th month, on the first day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me. Son of man, raise a lamentation. Over Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and say to him, you consider yourself a lion of the nations, but you are like a dragon in the seas. You burst forth in your rivers, trouble the waters with your feet and foul their rivers.

Thus says the Lord God. I will throw my net over you with a host of many peoples and they will haul you up in my dragnet. This is from Habakkuk chapter one, verses 14 through 17. You make mankind like the fish of the sea, like crawling things that have no ruler. He brings all of them up with a hook. He drags them out with his net.

He gathers them in his dragnet, so he rejoices and his glad. Therefore, he sacrifices to his net and makes offerings to his dragnet for by them. He lives in luxury and his food is rich. Is he then to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing nations forever? So there's all of this rich like contextual.

Context for I think what they're hearing. And then to have that pair immediately. I think what is shocking, like you're saying, is here's Jesus. He's been expounding and the kingdom, my heaven is like this. We just talked about the kingdom. My heaven is like these amazing treasures, like this pearl of great price and value, like these things of great blessing and worth and something to give up all that you have for to gain everything else which you could not have accomplished on your own.

And then he says, and another thing, the kingdom of heaven is like, it's like this judgment. It's like the judgment of the Old Testament. It's like the judgment of the net that God had typically reserved for the his own enemies. And now he's saying in the end, like you're saying, everybody will be pulled up and then comes the sorting.

[00:44:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and, and now you're stealing where I was gonna go 'cause I have a cook up on my, up on my screen. Yeah. I mean, I think that the hearers of this parable would have immediately thought of, I think Habakkuk would've been the place they thought of, right? The, the final, uh, the final judgment of the people of Israel prior to the, you know, prior to the exile.

Right. Um, or, or I suppose this is the exile itself, but you, you can sort of think of the. People of like it, the ancient, uh, nation of Israel. You can sort of think of them in a couple different phases, right? There's like the, there's like the United Kingdom under David and Solomon. There's the divided Kingdom, um, through most of its Old Testament history.

And then there's uh, there's the return to exiles that come after that. The last judgment of the people of, of Israel, right? And this is just Judah. 'cause Israel's already gone. The last judgment of the people of Judah. The two remaining tribes is, is described by Habakkuk as. A dragnet, right? It's, it's Babylon.

It's the Chaldeans, uh, sweeping up everything. Right? And that metaphor, in that metaphor in Habakkuk, um, it uses three different me fishing metaphors. 

[00:45:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:45:55] Tony Arsenal: Right. There's a fishing hook, which is very specific. That's right. You, you catch one fish with a hook, 

[00:46:00] Jesse Schwamb: right? 

[00:46:00] Tony Arsenal: Uh, there's a diff there's one kind of net, which is, uh, probably like this.

When, when you think of like fishing in North America, when you use a net, it's, you've already hooked them and you're using the net to kind of pull them outta the water. And then there is this dragnet and there's this all encompassing element of this dragnet in Habakkuk that represents the final total judgment of God's people in that phase of their existence.

Right? They come back from exile and there are very different people. Their religion is different, their culture and society is different. They have to rebuild the temple. They have a different temple. Um, even the way that the, the. Priesthood works is different. Um, not, not that it's entirely different, but it's definitely not exactly the same.

So there really is like a firm, um, seismic shift in the religion of the Old Testament that happens at the exile. Everything changes for them for many years. There is no temple. That's the judgment of that Habakkuk is describing. Right. That's the judgment that he was so aghast at that he was like, God, what are you doing like this?

Yes, exactly. The disease or the cure is worse than disease here. Right, right. Um, and then Christ is intentionally using that language. Um, that's not to say there aren't other, you know, you, you referenced a couple, there are other, um, judgment statements in the Old Testament that are Annette, but I, I think Habakkuk is the primary one, if not the only one that I can think of where it's applied to God's people.

[00:47:24] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:47:24] Tony Arsenal: Right. The net judgment in, in other places is often applied to God's enemies, but this is God's people and in this case, the judgment is. Obviously it's not on God's people. God's people face judgment, but come through it. The judgment here is not a judgment that, that people come through. So it's not, we're not referring to God's people in this judgment, in the parable.

Um, the, the but the net sweeps them up too. 

[00:47:49] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly 

[00:47:50] Tony Arsenal: right. It's a universal, um, all encompassing judgment. All people are swept up in it. Um, and in the Old Testament in, in Habakkuk, the remnant that Habakkuk points to, right? He's, he's, he is, uh, confident that there are those who are faithful to Jesus or faithful to God, faithful to Jesus.

He, he, you know, I think the, the prophets knew more than we give them credit for, 

[00:48:13] Jesse Schwamb: right? 

[00:48:13] Tony Arsenal: Um, the people who are faithful were still swept up in the judgment. They were still swept up in the, the nets of the chaldeans for the most part. Um, so I think there's a lot to it. There's a lot to this parable. Um, we are just scratching the surface.

I mean, and this is a short parable. This is why these, this parable series is first of all why it's gonna be like 19 years long. Um, but why it's so. Encouraging to me, and why I'm so excited about it is we really are, I really, I'll speak for myself. I hope that this is the listener's experience, and I hope this is your experience too, Jesse, but I am, I am coming to these texts and I don't think I'm finding anything new, but I'm seeing things that I haven't seen before.

I don't think they're new as in, like, no one in the history of the world has ever conducted Haku with this parable, but I, I've never thought of that before. I've read Habakkuk a bunch of times. I've read this parable a bunch of times. I never made that connection. I, um, I preached through Habakkuk, uh, a year and a half ago.

I did all four chapters over the course of a month. Uh, and I, in all my commentary, preparation, I never made this connection. Like it never came up in my mind that these two things were connected. But taking time to work through these parables of Christ and really think about and digest, his teaching has been so good for my soul.

[00:49:25] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. And of course it leads us, I think, into just these deeper waters of the brilliancy of our Lord and Savior's teaching that in just the course of a few short words, he's taken something that wasn't just like familiar, but had a full robust context. And I can imagine even with what they understood about Habakkuk, and again that passage ending with is, is he then going to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing the nations forever?

I mean, think about that plea, like just exemplifying the great power and providence and superintendent control that God has over everything, these nations and these peoples. And I can imagine the people saying, you know what? He's saying this to them saying like, who? Who are you talking to right now? It's us.

Like who you're talking to, you just said like the kingdom of God is, is for those who are willing to forsake all things and uncover this great and deep treasure and now you're coming in with all this judgment. And that's why I think it, it ending with this separation kind of coming back to where we started, which was at the very end, would've also been somewhat shocking or scandalous because it's very interesting to me that Jesus is essentially, I think drawing back to like Deuteronomy.

14 when it would've been common for these fishermen to go through. And just like in the, the beautiful practicality of this, like you commit to on this while you're working because it is directly connected to the work of the day, which was fishing. And people would more familiar with it than I am. And so when he says something like, you know, the good.

Fish are gonna be separated, put into containers in, in the bad, thrown out or thrown away, that I would imagine harken right back for them to Deuteronomy 14, where they're given the explicit command that, you know, you can eat of anything that's in the waters, you may eat all of those things that have fins and scales.

And certainly, I presume, without knowing exactly that in the sea of Galilee, there would be fish that they could not eat, that they would have to separate what was clean and unclean. And there seems to me be more than just a parallel here with that as well. So this, this judgment is about cleanliness.

It's, it's about those whom God has called and elected and saved. And those are, are the ones that he's going to be separating out. All will be caught up in that net. But this idea for the unclean and those that are clean, I think would also be just like reverberating in their minds while he's saying this.

Trying to figure out what does he mean by all of this. 

[00:51:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, um, we don't. I think Christians can sometimes disregard the categories in Leviticus. Um, what I mean by that is like we think of clean and unclean as like categories that have no relevance for us. 

[00:52:04] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:52:04] Tony Arsenal: And on a certain level that's that's true.

Like that was part of the ceremonial law. And, and the only reason they don't have relevance for us is because in, in Christ, we're all clean. But there's also an element that, that, that implies or it entails out of Christ. They're all unclean. 

[00:52:23] Jesse Schwamb: Right? 

[00:52:24] Tony Arsenal: Right, exactly. So someone who is unclean in the Old Testament did not have access to any of the ceremonial, cleansing or blessings of.

Uh, of the, the scriptures of God's, God's religion In the Old Testament, they didn't have access to the temple. They didn't have access to God's people. They were often, you know, castigated out of society itself. Um, I was listening to, I forget who it was, but I was listening to an excellent sermon on, um, the, uh, the, uh, woman who is suffering from bleeding.

I think it was Dr. Michael Yusef. And, um, he made the point that like, not only would she have been isolated from her religious community, her family would've had to isolate themselves from her in order to not become unclean themselves. 

Right. 

So when we talk about cleaning and unclean in the Old Testament, it is this picture of entire isolation, right?

Well, what, what does this parable end with? It's a place where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth, which we learn in other parts of the gospels when crisis. Talking about this is a place of outer darkness. 

[00:53:28] Jesse Schwamb: That's 

[00:53:28] Tony Arsenal: right. It's a place of isolation it, it's a fiery furnace, but it's also a place where there is nothing and no one else to keep you company or to share your misery with you are utterly alone to be undone by God's wrath for all eternity.

That's the picture we have here, right? That's the picture of uncles. That's why uncles is isolating in the Old Testament is 'cause this is this picture of judgment. So I think you're right when we're talking about the sorting of fish. We're talking about the, the sorting of the good fish and the bad fish.

We probably should read that as clean and unclean fish. 

[00:54:04] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly 

[00:54:04] Tony Arsenal: right. It's not just the good fish as in like, Ooh, this is delicious, and oh, that's kind of rotten. Like we're not talking about like, Ooh, I've got a yummy trout, and like, ooh, just like a really gross bottom feeder. That's not what we're talking about.

Right. Although I think bottom feeders probably would be unclean. 'cause they don't typically have fins per se. 

[00:54:20] Jesse Schwamb: Agree. 

[00:54:21] Tony Arsenal: Um, but like we're talking, we're not talking about like the quality of the fish. 

[00:54:26] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. 

[00:54:26] Tony Arsenal: As in like, this is delicious or healthy. Yeah. And, and this is kind of gross. We're talking about clean and unclean.

We're talking about whether or not a, a Jew could eat this fish and not render themselves to be unclean and to be excluded from the religious community and to be excluded from God's worship, to be made outsiders, even if temporarily, that's what unclean is did to you. It made you outsiders from the people of God.

Um, sometimes, temporarily, sometimes. Sometimes permanently. And, and a person who willingly eats unclean food in the Old Testament is separated. I, I think, separated permanently in some instances. So I think this is a, this is a parable that has a lot more to it than you probably would understand, just casually reading.

And I say that just to, to commend to you like a really good commentary Will, will get you to a lot of these places for sure. It will help you get to where this is. So whether you're using something like Calvin, which is available free online, Matthew Henry, which is free online. Um, I've been reading in the Pillar New Testament commentary series for a lot of this, um, which is, is a fairly technical commentary series, but you can get it pretty affordably on, on something like logos.

Um, wherever you're going, if you're using a decent commentary, it's gonna help you to see some of these nuances in ways that you probably wouldn't at just a casual first glance. And 

[00:55:41] Jesse Schwamb: of course I would add to that you can just go online and take a look at a couple of different translations and just kind of marinate in that, mold them over, read them over and over again in different versions.

[00:55:51] Jesse Schwamb: That can often be helpful, I think, because what this is really giving us excuse to do is get our meditation exercise muscles. Like buffed, like, let's, let's get sw as the kids say on meditation, because this gives us an excuse to say as we're turning this over, like reading it throughout the week and then turning it over on our way to work, or as we're walking to our vehicle, or as we're heading into the grocery store.

I think that's a very thing that God rewards to build through the power of the Holy Spirit, greater, deeper intimacy with what Jesus is saying here. And then why wouldn't the Holy Spirit want to empower Jesus' words for us even now, and to give us greater insight and greater closeness to him as we grew through these things?

So I think in that way, it's a really great excuse to just use this as an opportunity to practice meditation, some deliberate meditation to sit down and to actually think, what, what is meant here by the net? What, what would a, how would they use the net? If I imagine even fishermen using a net, what can I draw from that?

Because of course, clearly Jesus was using these very practical, ordinary, normal means. To communicate grand spiritual truths and they connect in consummate harmony. So it's all there for us to really grasp hold of like, this truth is not too far away, that we cannot grasp it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think we ought to continue to pray in that way. And this is just like a lovely excuse to really kinda lean into that more directly then some other passages of the Bible. This just lends toward that because this is the teaching of our Lord and Savior for us. He is for us, and in this teaching I see him being very much for us.

Yeah. In that he's communicating something to us that we ought to understand if we have ears. To hear that. That is the whole point, isn't it? And I take what you said, and I think that should be a great encouragement to us, that this idea that when Jesus draws near nothing remains the same. And that alien imputed righteousness is that new creation.

That regeneration is a cleanliness. And again, I can just imagine the people listening to this being very familiar with what it meant to follow the dietary restrictions very. Well, pun intended religiously and fastidiously and meticulously. And then for Jesus to use that and draw that data in this diff different way.

And I think what we've learned in this whole conversation is Jesus taught us that the kingdom of God. Is both God's sovereign future separation of the righteous and the wicked. He reigns in rules everywhere, in all places, in all realms and all spiritual realities. And I think the overall reformed reading sees this passage of reinforcing some of the doctrines you and I talk about all the time.

It's election, it's final judgment, it's perseverance. It's reminding believers to trust God's timing and to remain faithful until the end. And just like we are prone to say here, we find that Jesus is right in the center of this parable. Of course, because he, he's the one pulling up the net. He is God himself, and he's doing all the verbs.

He's pulling, he's bringing out of the water. He's sorting, he's sending. Yeah. And so we bow before him. We subject even our reasoning and our cognizance to him knowing that his ways are best, his will is the best, and that he's worthy of all praise and glory. 

[00:58:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: That's a good place for us to add. Um, we would love it if you would continue on this with us.

If you would, um, pick up your Bible and read and, and marinate over this. Grab a good commentary. Um, have good conversations about this. Again, the Telegram channel is a great place to have these conversations. Um, but, you know, God's word is so rich and I don't wanna ever create a canon within a canon.

Right, right. I saw an interesting video online the other day where some liberal woman was talking about how like, Christianity is the religion of Paul, and people forget that. Like, you know, Paul never even met Jesus. And like then a like a reasonable conservative Christian is like, you do know that like all of the words that we have of Christ were written are like someone else's words recorded, like 

[00:59:46] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:59:46] Tony Arsenal: All of it is secondhand in a sense. Um. All of that to say, uh, there is something sweet about the red letters, right? For sure. Um, it's not that they're more inspired or that we should take them more seriously, um, but we should definitely take them at least as seriously as we take the epistles, which I think sometimes, uh, reform Christians do have a tendency to prioritize Paul over the gospels.

Um, some of that is that it's explicitly teaching material, um, which makes it a little easier to digest and a little easier to preach. Um, but we definitely should spend time in the gospels. We should spend time, um, studying the words of our savior, studying what he taught his people in, you know, the people who were with him when he taught his apostles directly.

Um, there's a lot of value to that that we don't wanna overlook and we don't, don't wanna pass by. So I'm glad that we're gonna be in the parables for the foreseeable future. I mean, it's gonna be a long time, and, and I'm, I'm stoked for it. I'm here for it. 

[01:00:46] Jesse Schwamb: I'm definitely here for it. I think what we keep going back to is, wow, do they like pack a punch?

Like what? What I would've probably read through and have read before with somewhat of like a cursory attitude like, yeah, yeah, okay. It's a recapitulation just for emphasis. Right. What I found this time around was, of course it was doubling down on some things, but also giving us something completely different and new to consider.

And if, unless again, this is just. The condemnation. I feel the conviction I have is that I just spend far too little time in meditating on words like this. Yeah. It just, a little bit of meditation. I think God honors that. It, it kindles a fire within us for the scriptures, for greater love, for Christ, for closeness to Christ that is absent when we just tend to read through these, like again, like we're just eating that cheeseburger on the way home, on the highway real quick because we've got things to do and we've gotta just pack in a meal because we know we gotta eat between things instead.

Love ones. We gotta sit down at the table, take our time, get the nap, get the, get the nice cloth napkins, you know what I'm talking about. 

[01:01:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. 

[01:01:55] Jesse Schwamb: And have the, the family style dinner passed around. Talk to everybody and set aside the time knowing like the, the activity for today is like, like you would treat like a, a good old American Thanksgiving.

You come to that meal knowing like, this is what we're doing today is we're eating. We're fellowshipping, we're, we're spending time with one another. We're taking our time to enjoy and to savor. And I think you and I are always trying to grow in that to some degree. But here again, we have just a lovely excuse to do a little savoring of the scripture.

So come and savor with us. 

[01:02:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, uh, something that just crossed my mind that's a little bit insane is like, if you're reading the Bible in a year, which the like Yes. Read the Bible every year. Sure. If you're reading the Bible in a year, you, you read this chapter probably along with one or two others in a single sitting.

[01:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right. 

[01:02:43] Tony Arsenal: And like, how often do we take time to sit down and really think about. Two or three or four verses and just really s like really sit in that. Mm-hmm. Um, there's a huge benefit to reading. I've said this before, like, especially I think especially in the Old Testament, um, because we're not, probably not used to.

As much expository preaching in, in, especially like Old Testament narratives. Um, we are not used to really digging deep into the Old Testament and we don't hear a lot of it. Um, there's a lot of benefit in reading large portions of text in one sitting. Like, it's great if you do a, like a reading plan where you're reading through the Bible three times in a year and you're read like 5, 6, 7 chapters in one sitting.

That's great. But also it's good to sit and read like two chapters and really, or two, two verses and really meditate on them, really think about them. Um, we don't do that as much. Right? And there's a huge, huge blessing and benefit in it. Um, so yeah, you gotta have a very diet. Sometimes you gotta read a lot, sometimes you should read a little.

Uh, ideally you're doing both of those. Most days you're spending time reading big chunks and, um, and also meditating on small chunks. But I'm glad that at least in this series for the foreseeable future, we're really taking our time and we're really kind of doing the slow roast. Low and slow is the way to go with this.

[01:04:01] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, and slow like a pot roast on the Lord's day. 

[01:04:04] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes. 

[01:04:05] Jesse Schwamb: Well, whether you read a lots or you read a little, we know that. Until next time, you should honor everyone. 

[01:04:11] Tony Arsenal: Love the brotherhood. 

In this thought-provoking episode, Tony and Jesse delve into Jesus's twin parables of the hidden treasure and the pearl of great price from Matthew 13:44-46. They explore the profound economic metaphor Jesus uses to illustrate the incomparable value of the Kingdom of Heaven. Through careful examination of both parables, they discuss what it means to "count the cost" of following Christ while simultaneously recognizing that no earthly sacrifice can compare to the infinite worth of gaining Christ. The conversation moves between practical application—considering how believers assess value in their spiritual lives—and deeper theological reflections on Christ's perfect sacrifice that makes our entrance into the Kingdom possible in the first place.

The economic metaphor Jesus employs in these parables is striking—both the hidden treasure and the pearl are deemed so valuable that the discoverers "sell all they have" to obtain them. As Tony and Jesse point out, this transaction reveals something profound about how we should view the Kingdom of Heaven. It's not simply that the Kingdom is valuable; it's that its value so far exceeds anything else we possess that the comparison becomes almost absurd. As Tony notes, "For sure the worth of the kingdom of heaven surpasses anything we could imagine... there's no measure that is satisfying, there's no measure that can actually show us how worthwhile it is."

This perspective transforms how we understand sacrifice in the Christian life. When opportunities or comforts are foregone because of our faith, we're not simply losing something—we're experiencing the reality that we've chosen something infinitely more valuable. The parables teach us to view these moments not with regret but with a clearer vision of the treasure we've received in Christ.

Perhaps the most powerful insight from the discussion is the realization that the ultimate treasure of salvation is not the benefits we receive, but God Himself. As Tony eloquently states: "All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God... we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that."

This perspective reshapes how we understand the value proposition of the gospel. It's not merely that we receive eternal life, freedom from suffering, or other benefits—though these are real. The pearl of great price is relationship with God Himself. This helps explain why both men in the parables respond with such dramatic, all-encompassing sacrifice. When we truly grasp what's being offered, nothing seems too great a price to pay.

"What we get in salvation ultimately is we get God. We get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that."

— Tony Arsenal

"I often say in my own line of work, that cost only matters in the absence of value... it's like at the end of days when we think about the worthiness of our God, that there's no one like him, that he's unequal, that he has no rival, that the gospel is the sweetest message that we're rescued literally from the pit. We'll just say no matter what the cost of us personally, great or small, totally worth it."

— Jesse Schwamb

[00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the, the power of the Holy Spirit. We, we get swept up into the life of the, the God of the universe. Like the life of the Trinity indwells us.

And we, we become a part of that. We get swept up into that. We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that.

[00:00:47] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 469 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

[00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.

[00:01:00] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, we're back at it again with a whole new, or let's say different parable from our Lord and Savior Jesus.

And we've been talking about how really these parables give us this view of the face of heaven through these earthly glasses. And I am pretty interested in our conversation about what's coming up because sometimes we don't like to put too fine a points to our, our point of question to our faith. And in this case, we're gonna get to ask the question, what is it all worth, this kingdom of heaven, this rule and reign of Christ?

What is it all about? Who are the beneficiaries of it? And what is it all actually worth? There's a little bit of economics in this, so we're gonna get there. And while we talk and do a little affirming or denying, you should just go ahead write to just skip, go. Do not collect $200 or maybe. Pass, go and collect $200.

I dunno. But just go to Matthew chapter 13 and hang out there for just a second.

[00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: But first, I'm always curious to know whenever we talk, are you gonna affirm with something or are you gonna die against something? We've been on a string of lots of affirmations, but I'd like to think that's just because we're fun, loving, optimistic people.

But there was a day where we had to do both. And now that I only have to choose one, I do find myself gravitating almost naturally toward the affirming width. But I leave it to you, Tony, are you affirming with or denying against?

[00:02:22] Tony Arsenal: I, unfortunately am denying tonight.

[00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: So you and I already talked about it a little bit, but uh, I'm denying Apple Podcast Connect.

Oh yes. So, uh, I. Obviously, like if you're affected by this, you're not hearing the episode 'cause it's not updating for you. But, uh, if you happen to be using Apple to listen to the podcast and for some reason you're listening somewhere else, maybe you realize that the podcast has not been updating for several weeks.

And so you went to a different podcast catcher. Um, apple just decided for some reason that none of our feeds were gonna update. No good reason. So I've got a ticket out to Apple and hopefully we'll get it fixed. Uh, if you do know someone who listens to the show and they use Apple, please tell them to subscribe to something else or to, uh, go to the website.

You can get all of the, all of the episodes on our website. You could go to Spotify, you could do something like, uh, overcast or PocketCasts. Um, it really is just Apple. It's, it's the actual account that we use to, uh, to access. Apple's Directory is not pulling new episodes and it's not pulling new episodes on another show that I run as well.

So, uh, it's not just this show, it's not our RSS feed. These things happen. It'll, you know, you'll get four or five episodes all at one time. When it, when it corrects itself, usually they're pretty quick. I put in a ticket like late on Friday afternoon, so I didn't expect them to get to it on, uh, Saturday or Sunday.

So hopefully by the time you're hearing this, uh, it's resolved. I would hope so, because that means it would be about a week from today. Um, so hopefully they'll have a resolve. But yeah, it's just th thorns and thistles. This is our own, our own, uh, manifestation of the curse here in this little labor that we do.

It's, it's thorns and thistles right now, but no big deal. Just, uh, catch up when you can. And, uh, yeah, so denying Apple Podcasts now, really, it's, it's a great service and this is a, a little glitch. It's, it's just a little frustrating.

[00:04:20] Jesse Schwamb: The sweat of our brow. Yes. Here it is. We're just toiling over getting Apple to please release our episodes.

Well, it'll be your happy day if you use Apple Podcasts and then get a bunch of them all at once. That's fantastic. It's like the gift that is over in abundance.

[00:04:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it is a good reminder that you just said, Tony, that everybody should go, just take some time. Head on over to our form brotherhood.com. You can find all the other 400 some odd episodes living over there.

And while you're over there and you're perusing or searching by topic to see what we've talked about before, you're probably gonna think to yourself, this is so incredible. How is this compendium, this omnibus of all these episodes just hanging out here free of cost? And I'm so glad you're thinking about that because there are so many lovely brothers and sisters who have decided just to give a little bit to make sure that all that stuff gets hosted for free for you Yeah.

And for us, so that anybody can go and explore it and find content that we hope will be edifying. So if that's something you're interested in, maybe you've been listening for a while and thought, you know what? I would like to give a little bit one time or reoccurring, we would love to, for you to join us in that mission.

You can go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood, and there's all the information for you to give if that's something that you feel you would like to do, and we would be grateful for you to do it.

[00:05:32] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. We, we have a group of people who support the show. They make it possible for your, uh, your ear holes to be filled with our voices.

And, uh, but again, you know, the costs are going up all around and, and we would, uh, certainly love to have people partner with us. Um, we've committed to making show that the, making sure that the show is free and available. Um, it's never our intention to put anything behind a paywall or to, to barrier and in that way, but we can only do that if there's people who are supporting the show and making, making sure that we've got the funding that we need to, to keep going.

So, thank you to everybody who gives, thank you to anyone who's considering it, uh, and thanking anybody who decides to, uh, jump on board with that.

[00:06:11] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. We're appreciative who we really are.

[00:06:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today?

[00:06:16] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, this is what I've kind of done before, but I think I've found a new place for it.

I just am continually impressed and fall in love with how great and big and lovely God's world is. So I love these types of sites that give you insight into this great big world, even if it's in unexpected places or maybe in strange places. So I'm affirming with a website called Open webcam db.com.

Open webcam db.com. And it's exactly like what it sounds like. It's a database that has something like 2000 live cameras streaming daily from over 50 countries, all searchable by a category. So you can find natural landscapes, airports, construction sites, and one of my recent favorites, honestly, and this is.

It's so strange, but kind of awesome is this warehouse, it's called Chinese Robotic Warehouse Buzz, and it's just robots moving pallets around or like stacks of all of these items. It's mesmerizing. But I would encourage you go to open webcam db.com, search for like your stage or your country. You'll find so many amazing things.

So I've sat and just watched, you know, between tasks or when you know you just need a break or you're just curious about the world. Like I look, I watched the Krakow Maine Market Square quite a bit because it's. Beautiful and brilliant, and to think about the people moving to and fro and what they're doing, what their lives are like.

There's some great scenes from San Francisco Bay. There is a bird feeder in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania that I often watch. So of course, like go out as we've said, and live and breathe and be in your own communities. And as well, if you're looking at scratch that itch of just seeing all these different places, all the different things that are happening in God's created world, I can firmly and unreservedly recommend open webcam db.com for that.

[00:07:58] Tony Arsenal: Nice, nice, uh, little known fact at one point, Dartmouth Hitchcock, which is the hospital that I worked for, had to block a penguin cam, uh, because it was causing such a productivity drain combined with an actual measurable decrease in internet bandwidth at the hospital. 'cause so many people were watching this little penguin cam at some zoo in Boston.

I think it probably was. Yeah, I, I love this kind of stuff. I think this kind of stuff is great. Uh, I use, uh, Dartmouth College has a, like a live one that I use all the time, especially when we're trying to figure out what the weather's gonna do. You can see it on the camera. Uh, we, we often will, you know, see, especially as we get closer to the season when we're talking about traveling to the beach and whatnot, uh, often look at the ocean grove.

Oh, that's right. Uh, pier cam. So yeah, check it out. Uh, sounds like a fun time. Do not share it with too many of your friends at work. Or it may crash the network and Yeah. But

[00:08:53] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, for

[00:08:54] Tony Arsenal: sure. That was a funny email that they had to send out. I remember that

[00:08:57] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. Use, use the penguin cam responsibly. I just did a quick search.

There are four different penguin cams. Uh, three of them are in the United States, one is in New Zealand, and you better believe I'm gonna be checking those bad boys out. Yes. I didn't even think about. The penguin feature here and penguins are an amazing animal. Like we could stop right now and just shift our topic to penguins if you want to.

[00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. '

[00:09:16] Jesse Schwamb: cause there's so much there. And the spiritual truths are so broad and deep, but I just think penguins are kind of undervalued. Birds. Everybody should go check them out.

[00:09:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're pretty cool.

[00:09:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Um, I'm like, I will watch any Penguin documentary and just be astounded by Penguin.

Like, whether they're Emperor Penguins or South African Penguin, wherever. I just think they're phenomenal and hilarious and seem to be living the dream. And he doesn't want a little bit of that.

[00:09:46] Tony Arsenal: You just gotta get Morgan Freeman to do the voiceover in any documentary or, or nature documentary is better with Morgan Freeman doing the voiceover.

[00:09:55] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I all, this might be a deep cut real quick, but I just learned this, and I'm guessing some of our listening brothers and sisters probably already know this. Maybe you do too, Tony. So, Benedict Cumberbatch, do you know where I'm going with this? Yep,

[00:10:06] Tony Arsenal: yep. Pen wing.

[00:10:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I didn't. I cannot say that word or stumbles over its pronunciation.

He did some kind of big documentary in which Penguins played at least some part. Yeah. And they were in an interview. They were giving him such a hard time because they played his reading of it like within the same kind of five minutes. And his, the word just kept degenerating in his mouth every time he said it.

So it became like almost undistinguishable from the actual word. And it's like initial pronunciation. It was so hilarious. Apparently it's a big joke on the internet and I just didn't know it.

[00:10:38] Tony Arsenal: Especially for someone like Bent Cumberbatch who just is, uh, like he's a world-class voice actor.

[00:10:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:10:45] Tony Arsenal: And like a super smart ude guy and he just can't say the word penguin and penguin.

Yeah.

[00:10:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. He said, you got everybody go look it up. 'cause it is super hilarious. And now it's kind of gotten stuck in my head. But um, again, this suddenly became like the All Penguin episode all of a sudden.

[00:11:01] Tony Arsenal: I mean like, he can pronounce his own last name just fine, but the word penguin escapes him. I like to call 'em blueberry crumble bottom or whatever.

Crumble bunch.

[00:11:11] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, see that's the good stuff right there. That's what everybody we know. This is what you all tune in for. This is what you're missing when Apple Podcast doesn't send everything out on time. Yeah. You're welcome.

[00:11:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:11:23] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, why don't we, why don't we get into it? Because you know it, it's interesting.

Let's

[00:11:27] Jesse Schwamb: get into it.

[00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: Well, it's interesting because when you, you know, you kind of, we, we sort of do the little lead to the episode and I, I suddenly realized that I think I've been interpreting this parable very differently than maybe you have or other people. Great. Do, uh, because I, I think I, I think I might have a different take on it.

Let, let's do it. Yeah. So let's get into it. Uh, do you have the, the text in friend you wanna read? Uh, why don't we just do 44 all the way through 46? We'll do both parables in one reading. We'll come back and talk about it.

[00:11:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Sorry, everybody. So here's a two for one for you. Beginning in where we're in verse 44 of Matthew chapter 13.

This is Jesus speaking. The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy, he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field again. The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

[00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: I think maybe this is the, like the beauty of parables, uh, when Christ doesn't give us a interpretation. I, I think we're, we're, we're not free to like make up whatever we want, but these kinds of teaching tools are useful because the fact that there can be multiple interpretations actually is, is probably intentional.

[00:12:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:12:43] Tony Arsenal: So it's funny because I think when you intro the episode here, it sounds like you're going to the kingdom of Heaven being a treasure hidden in a field, being something that we should sell everything we have and go after. And when I read this, I read it as the kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden a field.

And the man who is Jesus goes and sells all that. He has. He gives all that he has and buys the field. So, and I, I think this is one of those ones where like. Probably both of those things are in play. Sure. But it's interesting 'cause I've never, I've never really read this and thought about myself as the person who buys the field.

[00:13:19] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Interesting.

[00:13:20] Tony Arsenal: I've probably heard sermons or read devotionals where people have said that and it just never clicked. And it didn't register until just now. And you were, when you were, uh, introing the parable that maybe you are the, maybe your way of introing your, your interpretation. Maybe that's the dominant one.

So I, I looked at a couple quick, um, commentaries while you were speaking and I didn't get a chance to do my commentary reading before the episode. It seems like I'm the weird one. So, but it's interesting, um, 'cause again, I think that's the, kind of the beauty of parables is that sometimes the, the, um.

Ambiguity of what the possible meaning could be, probably plays into the, the, um, teaching technique itself.

[00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I, I think that's fair. I totally can take and understand what your perspective is on this. What I find interesting is that these, we've got these two abutting each other, like the cheek to cheek parallel approach here, and in doing so, there seems to be like kind of an interesting comparison between the two.

Actors in this. And I think we should get into that. Like why in one case Jesus is talking about a person who finds this in a field, which by the way, I think the, the thing that jumps out to me first about that person is this person doesn't actually own the field at first. Right. That the treasure is in.

So that is interesting. I'm totally with you. But then the second one, so in the first one there's kinda almost like this sense, and I don't wanna like push this too far, but that this person who finds this treasure does so very unexpectedly, perhaps like he's even the hired hand and of course not the one who owns the field.

[00:14:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:14:49] Jesse Schwamb: And in the second case, we have somebody who almost is volitionally looking for this thing of great value, but finds the one thing above all the other things that they're used to looking for that clearly has the greatest and most. You know, essential worth and therefore the end is always the same in both of 'em.

They give everything they have. They're willing for forsake all other things with great joy, recognizing the great value that's in front of them. I think there is a place to understand that as Christ acting in those ways. I think there's also interesting, again, this comparison between these two people.

So I'm seeing this as we've got these varied beneficiaries of the kingdom. They both come to this place of the incomparable value of the kingdom, but then there's also like this expulsive power of the kingdom. All, all of that's, I think in there, and again, these are really, really, really brilliant, I think, because the more that you spend time meditating on these, the layers just kind of come and they fall away and you start to really consider, well, why again is Jesus using these two different characters?

Why is he using this kinda different sense of things of, of worth what the people are actually after? I think all of it's in play. You're totally right.

[00:15:54] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:55] Tony Arsenal: So I think, you know, when we think about the kingdom of heaven, when we think about these perils, we made this point last week, we shouldn't, um, we shouldn't restrict, we have to be careful not to restrict the comparison to just like the first noun that comes up,

[00:16:08] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:16:08] Tony Arsenal: So it's not just that the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure, it, it is like a treasure, but it's like a treasure that's hidden in a field.

Yes.

And it's not just like a treasure that's hidden in a field, it's a treasure that's hidden in a field which a man found and covered up.

Right?

So, so like we have to look at that whole sequence.

And I think, I think, um, you know, obviously like the, the interpretation that we are the, we're the man who finds the kingdom of heaven and we, you know, we go and buy the field. Um, that, that obviously makes perfect sense now that I'm looking at a few different commentaries. It seems to be the predominant way that this gets interpreted.

And we, we look at it and we say, what, well, what does this mean for like our Christian life? Like. What does it mean? Do we have to, do we have to give everything away? Do we have to sell everything we have? Is that the point of the parable? I think some people make that the point of the parable. Um, I'm not convinced that that actually is the point of the parable.

Um, because it, you know, it, it, it just, there's lots in the scripture that, that, uh, doesn't seem to require that Christians automatically like, give away everything they have. Um, maybe that's your calling. Maybe it is something that God's calling you to do to sort of, um, divest yourself of your, your belongings, either to sort of fight materialism or greed or, or just because like you're gonna need to have that fluidity and liquidity to your assets 'cause you're gonna need to move around or whatever it is.

But I don't think we look at this parable and have like a, like a, a command for a life of poverty or something like that.

Right.

Um, really this is more about the. Utter sold outness of the Christian to pursue and seek the kingdom of God.

[00:17:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.

[00:17:49] Tony Arsenal: And and I think that that's the same in both, even though the way that the person in the parables comes a, comes across the kingdom or they come across this, this thing of great value or thing of great price, that they find their response in both parables is the same.

And to me, that that actually tells me that that's more the point of these parables. Um, or, or maybe we shouldn't even think of these as two parables, right? Some of the introductory language that we see in when we transition from one parable to another, we don't really see that here. Uh, and if, if we're gonna follow that, actually we would be going to the next parable would also kind of fall into this.

But he says the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure. And then in 45 he says, again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls. We're gonna run into something like this later on when we get to like the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of lost coins. Where there are these distinct parables, but they're kind of stacked on top of each other in order to make a specific point.

All of the parables that are sort of in these parable stacks are making the same point. And so I think it's not so much about like, how do we find the Kingdom of Heaven or how do we come upon the kingdom of heaven? It's more about what do we do once we've come upon it? Once we've thrown it's, that's the point of the parable that we need to unpack.

[00:19:03] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. And I would add to that, like who is it that is the beneficiary of this kingdom? We have two different, very different individuals, which I, again, I think, we'll, we'll talk a little bit about, but I'm totally with you. I, I think it's, it's easier, it's almost too narrow and too easy to say. Well, this is really just about like physical ma or about wealth.

Like in some way the, what we're being taught here is that you have to get rid of everything of value in exchange for this. In some ways, that almost feels too transactional, doesn't it? As if like what, what we need to do is really buy the kingdom. We express our seriousness about this kingdom or the rule and reign of God by somehow just giving up everything that we own as if to prove that we're really worthy of receiving that kingdom that we prayed enough.

Right. That we've done enough, even though that we're contrite enough. Yeah. And all that stands like in direct opposition to the mercy and grace, which God gives to us through his son by the power of the Holy Spirit to bring us into this kingdom. So we know it can't really be about that. And so that leads me back again to just like the lovely details here.

And like you've already said in the first case, here's what really strikes me is. For probably most of us in the West, this idea of treasure is novel and maybe romantic. There's a adventure and an energy to it. Because we've all heard stories about this, whether it's like, I don't know, pirates of the Caribbean or the county Mount Cristo.

Like there's something about treasure finding some kind of, or national treasure. Sorry, that just came to my mind. Like I couldn't go any further without mentioning Nick Cage. So you know, like there's something there that pulls us in that finding this thing almost unexpectedly in a hidden place of immense worth and value is, has a real draw to it.

But I imagine that in Palestine being like a war torn region in Jesus' day, in the way people might store goods of great value in the fields they own. And then of course the owner may never be able to achieve for lots of reasons, including death. And then somebody might stumble upon it. And as I understand the, the laws there, of course, if you were to stumble upon something.

I was in somebody else's property and and on earth that thing take it out of the ground. In this case, you would be by law required to bring that back to the person who owned the field. So there's something interesting here that this first person, probably the more meager and humble of the two with they at least respected, like their socioeconomic status is let's, we could presume maybe going about their normal work.

They find this unexpectedly in the field and it's immediately recognized to be something of great value that it is to stop and to, again, there's like a measuring that happens behind the scenes. This person at least is measuring of all the things that I own, all things I could possibly own. The better thing for me to do is to consolidate all the rest of my wealth.

And this case, again, it's not the message of the story to do this, it's the exemplification of what's happening here. This person is so sold out to ensure that they acquire this great treasure that they stumbled upon, that they will take literally everything else of value that they own to exchange it for this very thing.

So I'm totally with you because I think the predominant message here is not like take all your wealth and make sure that you give it to the church or that it goes to ministry or to missions. That may all be well and good and it may all be the kind of calling that you receive. However, I think the principle message here is the kingdom of God is so valuable that losing everything on earth, but getting the kingdom is a happy trade off.

Like that's actually a really, really good deal. And so having the omnipotent saving reign of Christ in our lives is so valuable that if, if we lose everything in order to have it, it would be a joyful sacrifice.

[00:22:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, um, I think there is a level of.

[00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: Sacrifice that happens for every Christian and.

I mean, I, I know there's a lot of people who they, uh, come to faith as young children and we've kind of talked about that as like, that's that testimony that, you know, I think everybody really wants is like they wish they never had a time that they didn't know Jesus and Right. I don't know any parent that I've ever spoken to, and I'm certainly not any different here that doesn't want that testimony for Jesus, but, or for, for their kids in their relationship with Jesus.

But. I think most people who come to faith at some point in their life when they're able to remember it, like they, they have a conscious memory of their conversion experience. There is this sort of sense of sacrifice and e even a sort of a sense of loss. Um, I think there, there are times where, and, and you know, I think maybe, um, even people who've always been in the faith, um, they probably can resonate with this.

I think there are times when we might look at how our lives could have been different or could be different if we weren't in the faith. Um, and, and sometimes there's a sort of wistfulness to that. Like being a Christian can sometimes be difficult right On, um, you know, maybe you miss a promotion opportunity because you're not willing to work on the Lord's day or because you're not willing to do something unethical.

Like you, you miss out on some sort of advancement and you think, well, if I could just, you know, if I could have just gotten past that, like my life would be much different. And what this parable teaches us is. That's an understandable, like that's an understandable emotion or response. Um, and there is this weighing of the cost.

And in the parable here, he, like you said, there's this calculation that goes on in the background. He finds this treasure, he makes the calculation that to have this treasure is worth. Everything it's worth everything he has. He sells everything he has, and he buys the field in order to get the treasure right.

And, and there's some interesting textual dynamics going on through this chapter. We've talked about how the parables kind of like the imagery across the parables in chapter 13 here of Matthew, they kind of flip certain figures around and almost, it's almost intentional because he is getting the treasure and the treasure.

The kingdom of heaven here is like the treasure, but he's also getting the field right. And the kingdom of heaven is, is the field in other parables. Um, but this, this calculation that happens, um. I don't know, maybe my heart is just sensitive to this right now. I, I, I, I feel like a lot of times we look at that sort of wis wistful second glance at what could have been if we were not Christians, and we automatically feel like that's gotta be a sinful impulse.

Like, how could I ever even consider what life might have been? Like this parable implies that that's the thing we actually have to do. You have to know and consider what it is you've sacrificed or will be sacrificing in order to make this transaction happen. You can't just blanketly say like, oh, of course.

You know, you've gotta, you've gotta count the cost, as it were, and then you have to actually make the purchase. So I think we should look at this as a source of encouragement. Um, like I said, I'm not sure why. I feel like maybe there's, maybe there's just a, a. I dunno, I'm feeling a little weird and charismatic right now.

I feel like this is something that I definitely need to be saying, like, I feel like someone needs to hear this. Maybe it's just me that needs to hear this. And that's, I'm tricking myself by thinking of someone else. But we are able, as Christians, I think God permits us and in some sense, maybe even expects and commands us to recognize what we have given to be Christians in order that we might realize how much we have gained with that transaction.

It's not just this like remorse or regret, um, for the sake of remorse or regret. It's to be able to see how good and how beautiful and how worth it is the kingdom of God, uh, to, to, to claim that.

[00:26:23] Jesse Schwamb: I like that there is a great discipline and a great joy in remembering worth and worthiness. So there's gonna be times, like you said, when it's hard and if you look back, look back at the ministry of Jesus, I've often thought that he's like a poor evangelizer from like modern standards.

Yeah. Because often people come to him and say things like. I, I wanna be part of the kingdom of God. Well, what do I need to do to enter the kingdom of God? And here you have like a seemingly a willing convert. And he always says things like this, like, you gotta go count the cost. Yeah. Like is, is this worth it to you?

Like you have to deny yourself, you have to hate your own father and your mother, and your wife and children, and brothers and sisters, even your own life. Otherwise you cannot be my disciple. And in this kind of language, it's clear that Jesus is saying you fail often. And maybe this goes back like you're saying, Tony, it's like the parable of the soil that you fail to really take into account what it means to follow with full fidelity, to commit yourself in a fully unencumbered way.

Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to consider that? And as human beings, we're just not good often at counting costs. We're not good at thinking about opportunity costs. And it's interesting here that we're called out to say, even if you've already purchased the field as so to speak, that as if you've been saved by Christ, to continue to remember how good it is to be in the kingdom of God.

And that the joy. Of knowing as like the Heidelberg Catechism says in the first question that all things are subservient to our salvation. Yeah. That incredible worth of, that should be a source of encouragement in times of great trial and tribulation, no matter how big or small, so that this joy that this person has when they go and sells everything he has and he buys this field, you know those details, like you're saying, do press us.

It really comes to us with this idea that we should be able to see plainly why having Christ is more valuable than all other things. If the omnipotence all wise, God is ruling, ruling over all things for our joy, then everything must be working for our good, no matter how painful and in the end, God is gonna triumph over all evil and all pain.

So this kingdom is a real treasure. Like it is a, it is a real. A real quantity in our life and our wellbeing and in our spiritual consistency, that'll ought demand some reflection of how valuable it truly is. And then knowing that in our minds, that like influencing our behavior, our other thought patterns, and then our actual feelings about stuff.

So that when, like you said, we're passed over, we're looked over, we're ridiculed for something, we go back and we count it all joy to be worthy of being part of God's kingdom, knowing that it was because of the entrance and acceptability and the identity in that kingdom that we experience. Those things, those hardships begin with.

[00:29:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, um, I don't want us to miss out on the fact that even as the parable may be encouraging or forcing us to think about. The cost. It, it really is trying to emphasize the great value of the kingdom. Right? Right. We, like I said, we, we don't just count the cost. In order to count the cost for its own sake.

We count the cost in order to understand the great blessing that is ours in Christ. Right. All I, I count all that I have as a loss compared to the greatness of Christ Jesus. And, um, I think we just don't often do that. I, I, I think as Christians, that's probably a thought that is in our head more as young Christians, especially if we come to the faith in, in a time in our life where we're aware of things like that.

We think about things like that.

[00:29:59] Tony Arsenal: You know, I was 15 when I first came to faith and, um, I, I don't think I was in a frame of mind as a 15-year-old boy to think about, like. The cost of what I was doing, right? It's not like I was a particularly popular kid. I didn't have a, you know, I didn't, I wasn't unpopular, but it wasn't like I lost a ton of friends when I became a Christian.

I didn't really lose anything that was measurable. Um, but I do think that, as, you know, someone now in my forties, looking back at, you know, 15, 20, 25 years of, of Christian life, it's easy to see that things could have been different on a sort of temporal scale. Like my, my life could probably be more comfortable in terms of wealth or opportunities or other things that might, uh, aren't, aren't even bad things necessarily.

There is a sense of sacrifice. But again, God has brought us into this kingdom and he's given us parables like this and given us the ability to recognize. That we do have a cost, that there is a cost to be counted in order that we might now look at it and praise him for how great and glorious and valuable the gift that he's given us is.

[00:31:08] Tony Arsenal: And so I think, you know, I think that's the same basic meaning of this second, second half of the same parable. I guess the, the pearl of great price or the pearl of great value. But it's not exactly the same, right? It's not like Christ is just repeating the same ver, you know, parable with, with different words for variation.

Um, every word is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching correction, reproof, and training and righteousness. And I had a, I had a prophet in, uh, in Bible college who would say like, difference means difference. And he was often talking about like minute things, like the difference, um, or why, why is this word used instead of that word?

This word would've worked. And, and the author chose that one. There's a reason for that. Difference means difference, but. Christ here chooses to, to tell the parable a second time, um, in a slightly different way. Uh, and Matthew chooses to record these in the same sense next to each other in slightly different ways.

So what, what do we, what do we wanna pull out of this second parable that's different and what do we think it's telling us that's a little bit different than the first version Y?

[00:32:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:32:16] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, I love this idea because not until really, I was thinking about it this week when I read through them, was I really, again, drawn to the differences between these two main characters.

Interestingly, I think in both, and we can make the case that the, the treasure, the kingdom of heaven here represented in both this pearl or in this literal treasure is in a way hidden. Certainly the first man is not necessarily looking for, it's still revealed to him, but the second in a way. And on the other hand, he knew this guy knows treasure.

He's been seeking it with diligence in vigor, or at least like this is what he does for a living in his vocational career. He's out there trading pearls, presumably, and he knows something about them and how to evaluate them effectively. And so it's his business and he's dedicated himself to finding them.

And apparently he's seen plenty of them over the years. But then all of a sudden, and this is wild, the beautiful, all of a sudden, clearly the search comes to like an abrupt end because he finds this one of immeasurable value, so much beauty exceeding and value exceeding all the other ones. And he doesn't need to search anymore.

He just finds the one pearl that he can retire on a pearl with more than everything else. Or anything else that he's ever possessed and he gets it again. He does. And this brings him into symbol two with the first man. He does the same thing, then liquidate everything else and go after this one. Great pearl.

So to me, and I'm curious your perspective on this, I'm not necessarily promulgating that. Well, the first one is not a seeker and the second one is like a seeker of of God things. Right? There is though, like you said, a difference in their approach and what they're after. And so I think what we can take from this, at the very least, is that there is diversity in these beneficiaries of the kingdom of God that's covering everybody.

And just by these two kind of bookended or polar examples, that's what Jesus draws us to. But I would turn the question back to you. What do you think about this second guy? What do you think about the fact that his business is searching after these things? What? What do we take away from that?

[00:34:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:34:07] Tony Arsenal: And you know, the thing that drop that jumps out to me immediately in the first parable, the kingdom of heaven is, is like the treasure hidden in the field,

[00:34:16] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:34:16] Tony Arsenal: In the second one, the kingdom of heaven is the merchant who's searching,

[00:34:20] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:34:20] Tony Arsenal: Right. The kingdom of heaven is like the merchant in search of fine pearls who finds one. That's right. And so I think that they kind of are like, almost like mirror images of each other, right? One of them is about the treasure and what it takes to come upon it and then obtain it.

The second is about the person who is coming upon the treasure and, and finding it. And then what it takes again to obtain that treasure. And I think, I think you're right, there is an element here that. Um, in this second parable, the person who is seeking for this treasure is one he's seeking for the treasure, right?

Right. You get the image in this, in this first parable that the dude just kind of stumbles upon it. Um, I've heard this Todd as like, it's actually more like a guy who's just walking through a field rather than like a person working the field. And I'm not sure that matters that much, but there is this sense in the first parable that the guy kind of stumbles upon it.

He wasn't looking, it wasn't what he was trying to do, but you're right in the second one, the kingdom of heaven, and this is where I, this is where I think I need to think more about it, is what does it mean for the kingdom of heaven to be like a merchant searching for fine pearls

right

[00:35:23] Jesse Schwamb: on.

[00:35:23] Tony Arsenal: Rather than the pearls being the kingdom of heaven, which is what we see in the first bearable.

Um, and I don't know the answer to that question. I think I need to, need to think about it and study it a little bit more. But I do like this distinction that in, in the first case, it's sort of a happy accident. And in the second case, this is, this is the life, this man's life work. He finds he's, he's in search of fine pearls.

I'm not sure I know exactly what he's trying to do with the fine pearls. It seems like it implies that he's a pearl merchant or a pearl trader, but then he finds this pearl. He doesn't seek to sell it. He buys it. Right.

[00:36:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:36:00] Tony Arsenal: And, and the, the, the fact that the parable stops with him buying it sort of implies that like.

He actually is not going to sell it. He's just gonna keep this pearl. Now before the, the pearls, the, the source of the value of the pearls was kind of in the, the financial gain that selling or trading them could bring. But now he suddenly finds this pearl that is so valuable. It's so great, it's so beautiful.

Everything he was working to obtain before all of the money he's gathered by finding and selling pearls in the previous like mode of living. He now gets rid of all of that just to purchase this one pearl and presumably to keep it. And I think that again, is kind of a, kind of a, um, statement on our Christian life is that we, we probably have all sorts of things that we've been doing our whole life and we are seeking to, to move forward in our life.

And the kingdom of heaven is kind of the ultimate goal of all of that, for those who are in Christ, for those who are called according to his purpose. The purpose is not just to accumulate wealth. It's not even necessarily, uh, in and of itself to like grow in righteousness. It's to be transformed to the, uh, to the image of God's glory son, for the purpose of making him great, making his name renowned.

Right. When we look at that passage in Romans that have kind alluded to, he's, he would transform into the image of Christ so that he might be the first born among many brothers.

[00:37:24] Tony Arsenal: Ultimately, our, our sanctification and glorification is about making Jesus great and glorified, um, to give him glory, to have our glorification reflect his already intrinsic glory and the gift that he gives us, and I think that's kind of, kind of in play here, is that.

Uh, we might have all sorts of goals in our life. We might have goals in our Christian life, um, that are good things that we should strive for, but at the end of the day, all of those things only serve to bring us to the kingdom of heaven, which is this pearl of great price that we, we purchase, we buy it and we just kind of hang onto it.

It is its own treasure and it's, it's not about what this, this treasure can bring to us,

right?

Which is what the fine pearls were before they were about what the merchant can find and sell. It's, it's now about just obtaining the pearl and enjoying that pearl. Um, which I think is a little bit different than, than, um, what I would've thought of with the par before.

[00:38:19] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think, I think you're actually onto something with the distinction because I think of. So much of my career has been spent in financial services among people who are buyers and sellers of things. They're traders. And the way I read this was very similar to what you were saying to me.

What resonated was if this gentleman or this person is. Trading, collecting these pearls. Presumably they have appreciation for the beauty of the pearl itself. So there is like something innate that draws them to this particular thing. And with that experience and with that knowledge and with that, that appreciation of that beauty.

I think when they see this other pearl, it moves from, well, why would I ever sell that? I've seen everything. This is the most beautiful pearl I've ever laid my eyes on. And now I want to keep it for me. I want to have it in my possession. I want to cherish it and not just keep it in the inventory and then turn around and sell it for markup, presumably, because there is no nothing that would be of greater value to this person.

'cause they just sold everything else that they had. So they, it's appreciation for the pearl itself. It's going after that finding and seeking that great beauty. And then that led me right into Philippians chapter four, where Paul writes the church in Philippi, beginning of verse eight. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever's honorable, whatever's just whatever's pure, whatever's lovely, whatever's commendable.

If there's any excellence, if there. Anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me. Practice these things and the god of peace will be with you. So this idea, like you and I, Tony, have talked about like the world has great wisdom, it has great knowledge, it has things that can lead us by way of common grace into certain amounts of peace.

But the pearl of great price, the seeking after the going after all these great things is to find the gospel, to be given the gospel it revealed to you. And then say everything else I count as a loss. Everything else is worthless compared to this thing. And if you're a person that can appreciate even just by turn of mind or God's influence in your life, you know, knowledge and wisdom, and you're seeking after that, which is the ultimate expression and representation of those things, and then you find you come upon this pearl of great price, the gospel wisdom and the beauty of God represented in his son Jesus Christ.

And you say, this is it. I, I know enough to know, again, by the regeneration that comes through the spirit, this is the real deal. Then I think the message still stands. We come through two different directions into the same final culminating point, which is there is a condition for having this kingdom of God, for having the king on your side as your friend, but the condition isn't like wealth or power or negotiating or intelligence or even good trading behavior or going out and finding the right thing.

The condition is that we prize the kingdom more than anything else we own. The point of selling everything in these parables is to simply show where our hearts are at. And so I often say in my own line of work, that cost only matters in the absence of value. Actually, it's true for everything that we. We presumably spend our time or our money on cost only matters in the absence of value.

And I think like you and I could do a fun little experiment where I don't know, you ever talking to somebody about something and you're paying a cost to have that service delivered to you and you're, and you're just like totally worth it, like I would do totally worth it. Like, yeah, that's kind of the vibe I'm getting here.

It's like at the end of days when we think about the worthiness of our God, that there's no one like him, that he's unequal, that he has no rival, that the gospel is the sweetest message that we're rescued literally from the pit. We're just say no matter what the cost of us personally, great or small, totally worth it, that that's what we'll be saying for all of eternity as we worship him.

[00:41:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think even more than saying, totally worth it. I think when we are given our new eyes to see, and we no longer see through a da a glass dimly, we're gonna recognize saying that it was worth, it is is like it's a pale, like it's a faulty answer to begin with because the, for sure the worth of the kingdom of heaven surpasses anything we could imagine.

And in our, you know, locked in little meat brains that we have now, we're kind of com we're just comparing it to. You know, like what, what we could have had or what we, what we've given up. Um, it, it's gonna be an incomparable comparison. Like there's no, there's no measure that is satisfying, there's no measure that can actually show us how, how worthwhile it is.

And, you know, we've, we've made a point of it, like the, the blessing of salvation and, and really like what it is that we're getting, uh, in, in the. You know, the Christian understanding of salvation, it's not, it's not an eternal destiny. It's not bigger mansions in heaven. It's not freedom from death. All of those things come with it.

All of those things are attending gifts. That's right. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the, the power of the Holy Spirit. We, we get swept up into the life of the, the God of the universe. Like the life of the Trinity indwells us.

And we, we become a part of that. Uh, not, not in the, you know, like. Eastern Orthodox deification sense, although I think there's a proper way we can talk about deification. Um, but we get swept up into that. We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that.

There's nothing that we could ever point to. Um, it's funny, my, my wife and I, um, this is a little corny, but, um, we'll often say to, to each other instead of saying, I love you more than anything, we'll say, I love you more than everything. Right. And, and it's, it's a way to say like. You could take all that there is in the world, everything that I have that I could possibly consider and sum up the value.

And I love my wife more than that. I love my children more than that. So it's not that I love them more than any one thing, it's that I love them more than everything combined. And this is even greater than that, right? We, we will look back at our lives and if, if it's even in our mind, if we even can, can comprehend anymore.

The idea of thinking about what it costs us to obtain this pearl of great value, which is the kingdom of heaven, which is just another way to say, is just fellowship with the God of the universe. Um, we'll look at it and say no matter what it was. No matter what it could have been, I would give everything I, I love God more than everything.

Right. Right. There's nothing that could ever possibly be considered that even comes close to what we gain in, in Christ Jesus, in union with, with God. And I think that's the point of this, like I think the guy who, um.

[00:44:58] Tony Arsenal: I think about what it would take for me to even like to sell everything, like the concept of selling everything I own.

I'm not even sure how I would do that, to be honest with you. Like, I don't even know the mechanism for that kind of thing. But the idea that there's anything that could be valuable enough that I would just sell every piece of human property that I have, there's probably nothing like that in this world.

Like, there probably isn't. And to, to take that comparison and then basically say like, that's just what the kingdom of God is like. 'cause that's the other thing I think we miss about parables is you, you only make a comparison when you can't describe something, um, analytically, right? There's the difference between analogically and analytically Ana lot analytically means we're able to actually quantify and explain it kind of in strict terms, right?

I can, I can say that, um, uh, a heavy object ways, X number of grams or it, you know, or, um. Pounds or whatever. I can, I can measure that and make an analytical statement, or I can make an analogy, an analogy that is comparative. Uh, but by definition, or almost by by nature of the thing, when you make that comparison, you're kind of saying like, not only is it like this, but it's actually it, like it's more like this than I can even describe.

Right? So when we're talking about the kingdom of Heaven here, and we say it's, it's like, it's like a man who goes, he finds a treasure and then he sells everything. He has to get that treasure. It's infinitely more like that than it actually can be described. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm rambling on that a little bit.

Maybe trying to describe something that can't be described is, is hard to do.

[00:46:35] Jesse Schwamb: It's, that's, yeah. But yeah, that's, that's very difficult to do. I'm actually totally with you on this. I think I understand clearly what you mean, this idea that no matter how hard we actually try to value it, we'll be incapable of doing so.

Yes. And at best, it almost seems like this is a strange command in a way because it's, it's asking us to do in some ways a thing that is impossible for us to do. However, I think what you're saying is it doesn't mean that we shouldn't turn our minds toward that. We're a bit like people who, I don't know if this show is still on PBS, but like, do you know that show, remember that show The Antiques Road Show?

Yeah. Where people would like come, they'd ran ransack their homes or their garages with these old antique items and they bring them to this road show where there'd be experts who would value them. And inevitably we'll be like those people who come with what we think is like a. A thousand dollars clock that we got at a garage sale thinking, wouldn't it be great?

I know this is valuable. It's probably a thousand dollars. It'll be, look at the return, tenfold return, I'll get on this item, and then instead finding that it's worth $10 million when it's appraised. Yeah, I assume it'll be just like that in the Beautific vision that even maybe for all of eternity will be growing in our appreciation for just how valuable this great salvation is.

And yet at the same time, I think what this should encourage us to do is to pray things like God make us real in seeing and savoring Christ in his saving work above all the other things. Yeah. So that, as you said in your example, we would cherish him above everything, above all things that you have that right place in our hearts or that we be inclined to undertake that posture, which says, God, though I cannot understand it in full.

Would you help me to see that?

[00:48:08] Jesse Schwamb: And I wanna just say like, as a word of encouragement, maybe I'm speaking more to myself here so everybody else can disregard this if you like, but I think sometimes there can be a little bit of intimidation then when you hear these things and say like, ah, I'm just not, I just dunno if I love God enough, like I wanna love him, or I want to want to love him more.

And I think even that posture is appropriate. Yeah. Sometimes there, oftentimes in my personal life, I'll pray something like, God, help me to know how much you love me and would you give me the strength to love you back? So that even that awareness, that energy, that volition, that vitality, that, that heat, all of that, that fire itself is kindled by the Holy Spirit.

It's not like we need to like try to again manufacture here. Because the point of these, these stories is not again, that we just find the means to do a transactional exchange here, but that instead we really just sit in the full promises of God. And of course to that, I would say we always need to go back to, to something like Romans eight.

I mean, I know that we should, like you said, Tony, the. The standard description we give for the Bible is the one that gives itself, which is that all of it, all of it's is carried along by the Holy Spirit. All of it is God breathe. All of it is useful for something. And yet, of course, I say somewhat tongue in cheek that, you know, if I have 10 minutes to live, I'm probably not gonna the s descriptions of reading a genealogy, I'm going straight from Roman and say, Romans say, I think it's just like the pinnacle of the scriptures.

And so just a couple of verses at the end there, because I think this is, this is leading us into what is this great treasure? What is the kingdom of God? Why do we value it so much? What is the saving power? And uh, these verses, I mean, always just entirely get me ready to run through a wall. So this is the end of, of Romans eight beginning verse 35.

Who shall separate us from the law of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword as it is written for your sake. We are being killed all the day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. No. In all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us for I'm sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from a love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

[00:50:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a good word. And I, I, I like what you're saying too, is, is I think we, we can. There's this paradoxical thing that happens when the scriptures is trying to encourage us to do something, is we often like to get our, in our own way. And, and actually that becomes a source of discouragement for us.

The Bible calls us to something and we know we can't live up to it. And that's actually like part and parcel of, of reform theology to recognize that this is law, like the, the, the, the, you know, maybe not in like the strict sense, like when we talk about dividing the scripture into law and gospel, um. It may not be that this particular passage would fall under that rubric of law normally, but this idea that we need to count the cost and that we need to be treasuring Christ more and more, and then when we feel like I'm just not getting it.

I'm just not there. Like, I don't, I don't treasure Christ as much as I so should. Um, that Yeah, that's right. Nobody does. Nobody can, like, that's, that's kind of the point of this, and that's why it's law is it's, it shouldn't drive you in Christ. It should not drive you to despair. Right. It should not drive you to discouragement.

It should drive you to gratitude that God saved you anyways. That, that this pearl of great value is still yours even though you can't possibly deserve it. Um, you know, we're, we're a little bit different than the, the merchant and the man who finds the treasure in the field in that we can't sell everything we have and obtain it like they have the ability to do that in the, in the parables.

Right. Um, we, we don't, and we never will. And so rather than let that drive you to being discouraged that like you're just not getting. I recognize God is of infinite value and we are finite creatures. So we, we could, uh, value God perfectly. Like whatever that means, and I don't even know what that means, but we could value and cherish and love God perfectly as far as our capacities are concerned, and it still would not be enough to sufficiently merit God's favor for us.

Like as much as we can, even in, even in eternity. As much as we can value and worship and love and praise Jesus, he is worth infinitely more than we could ever give, even when we do it perfectly. And this is, this is why you know Christ coming to die, to live on our behalf, to die in our place. Why that's necessary is because only this is a, maybe a different take on it.

We, I think we talk a lot about how, um. Only God could, could carry, bear the wrath of God and not be destroyed. Right. Right. Only God could, um, could stand up under his own wrath, could stand up under the wrath of God and bear that punishment and not be destroyed. And so therefore, um, Christ had to be not just a man, but had to be God.

But on the flip side. And God requires perfect perpetual obedience, which involves loving the Lord your God, perfectly with your whole heart at all times. Right? Only God can do that too. So it's not just that God. It's not just that God is bearing wrath perfectly and infinitely on our behalf, on the cross, but Jesus is also loving God perfectly and infinitely and truly worth, truly worthing.

Him. Wor worship is, the word comes from worth. It's about attributing wor worth to God, only Christ, because he is, God could do that sufficiently and perfectly and infinitely. So he's doing that on our behalf too, right? He's praying and interceding on our behalf. He's standing in God's presence worshiping him in heaven on our behalf.

[00:53:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:53:54] Tony Arsenal: That is what this parable should drive us to. That's right. Is to recognize that yes, the kingdom of heaven is this pearl of great price that we could, we could never sell enough and and be able to buy, but someone did. Someone couldn't. And I think maybe this is where, where, and we didn't talk about it and that's fine.

But I think this is where my understanding of these came from a little bit is I've always read these to say that it's, it's Christ who is like the man who finds a treasure in a field and gives all that he has and buys that field. Right? And I guess that kind of lines up with the way that the field has been portrayed in the rest of the chapter.

And maybe that's where I got it from. I don't know. Right. Um, I don't think I've ever read it. 'cause now that I've looked at a couple commentaries, none of them make this connection. So I, I guess I want to be, I want to proceed with a little fear and trepidation. If you're the only person who's ever seen in church history, then, then go slowly and carefully.

Um, but, but the same thing is, is Christ is searching. Christ is searching in a sense for, for fine pearls, right? Sure. He says like, when the son of man returns to earth, will he find, will he find the faithful? Right? There is this element of, of God is seeking his people and when he finds them, he gives everything he has to purchase them.

That's right. Right. And, and so we need to look at these as a source of encouragement to point us to Jesus, who ultimately is the one who's obtained the, obtained the treasure and obtained the pearl for us, and has given us the kingdom of heaven. Who he himself is, in a sense, is the kingdom of heaven. Um, you know, we don't get a kingdom apart from the king who rules over it.

That's right. So to say that we inherit the kingdom of heaven is, is to say that we become co-heirs of the kingdom, which is Christ by Right. He gives that to us by grace.

[00:55:36] Jesse Schwamb: I keep trying not to say it, but it just keeps happening. It's another classic example of God does all the verbs, isn't it? Yeah. It's,

[00:55:42] Tony Arsenal: it is.

[00:55:42] Jesse Schwamb: We could speak for another couple hours then about how beautifully that fits in with the passive and active obedience of Christ, which you just described, and I, I, I'm with you. I think there's something in that parallel that's very. Very similar to let's say, like how he should appropriate or, or kind of approach like Psalm one, like who is this righteous man?

[00:55:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,

[00:55:59] Jesse Schwamb: it is Christ. And so the only way that we're getting, the only way that we even can give up enough is because Christ has already given it up in our stead and then welcomes us in so that again, we don't have to empty out our account, so to speak. That even like the indicative and the imperative comes together in Christ so that what he commands, he wills in our lives.

And I know time alludes us. I, I think I would be like remiss if I didn't mention how, to me as well, how. I was totally just struck by how I'll use this word because reform people will know it and you can stand, stand on your chairs and throw your hats into the air. When I say it is that, notice how irresistibly both of these characters are drawn to this treasure.

[00:56:41] Tony Arsenal: Yes.

[00:56:41] Jesse Schwamb: That when God illuminates it for them, it's, it's a foregone conclusion that they will do those things. I think that should be of great encouragement to us, because again, it's not like, well, how do I know if I find the pearl of great price or God opens up my, how do I know that I've done enough? That is a fool's errand.

You will never do enough. What we know though is that they, each of these were drawn irresistibly to do what God required because God had already accomplished it on their, in their stead and on their behalf. Yeah. And so we see sovereign grace, this justification union with Christ, like you said, and true discipleship, the believers joyful surrender of all else.

Is the fruit of a transformed heart. And I believe, like you're saying, Tony, it's not reasonable to expect that a child while truly being transformed, regenerated by God accepting the gospel. That is a real quantity. And as we grow in our lives through this idea of progressive sanctification, we come I think, to increasing levels of surrender and realization, which is all part of what it means to nly grow maturity as a Christian.

And that is also normal too. And as we do that, we should have increasing, I think, measures of joy in our life to lay these things down, to cast the crowns before Christ and say, this always belonged to you, but not, not to begrudgingly, but with great joy seeing that it is always in every way worth it.

Yeah. So I think by God's grace, the elect are gonna recognize Christ as the greatest treasure and willingly forsake all to follow him even. I mean, I'm, I'm a. Poster child for this. Even if we do a kicking and screaming that God works on us, puts us over the anvil at times and works on us in increasing levels of surrender, he's still doing that out of love and that is still a testimony that he's accomplishing the great work that he began, even if that started as you being a child and receiving this great gospel message in Word.

[00:58:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:58:28] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, as you mentioned, time eludes us and, uh, I, I think this is just a great place to stop. Um, we're coming back next week. We're gonna come back talking about the parable of the net, uh, which is, uh, again, is kind of linked to this parable, but is a very sharp turn to a different direction, I think.

Um, so there's, there may be some, some affinities here, but, um, we're gonna come back next week. We are gonna be in the parables for a long time. Brothers and sisters, like this is gonna be a long haul. Um, maybe not as long as our systematic theology series, which was like multiple years long. Um, but it's not gonna be a short one, but it's great because I love it.

I just love it. It's so, it's so much fun to look at these parables. Um, you heard tonight. Even just working through this together. This is one thing that, um, that I hear Matt Whitman say on 10 minute Bible hour lot. He will comment regularly and he'll sort of thank his listeners that him doing the show, him producing the podcast, has forced him to look at the scriptures and to sort of be forced to learn about them.

And I feel the same way about this kind of series. Like I get it working through the parables. It's such a joy and I don't know that I would've done it otherwise. So, um, if, if you are not already reading through these with us, if you're not spending some time taking a look at commentaries, please do consider devoting a little bit of time each week to taking, taking a, a, a look at these parables.

Grab a good study bible or a good commentary. You can get Calvin's commentaries on free or on online for free. You Matthew Henry online for free. Both of those are super good commentaries and just work through these slowly and think through them and think about how they apply to your life. Like I know that going into my week, I'm, I'm set up now to be able to look at.

What it has cost me to be a Christian. And instead of looking at it with this sort of wistful, sideways eyes of like, what could have been, I can look at it and say like, it doesn't matter what could have been because look at what I've got. Look at what I get because of the kingdom of God. Look at who I get.

Uh, I get God, and that's enough. It's more than enough. It could never be, not enough. Um, so brothers and sisters, I, I'm so thankful that we're working through this. I'm so, so, um, humbled that God has brought us to a place where he's given us our, the scriptures. He's called us to study it. And thank you to everybody who supports the show, you know, not just financially, but supports us by encouraging us in the Telegram chat, uh, which we haven't mentioned.

You go to t me slash for brotherhood. If you wanna join a really nice, fun online discussion group. Um, people who encourage us there. I get emails and text message once in a while from people who listen to the show. Um, thank you for coming alongside of us and for, for giving us this opportunity to study the scriptures together with you.

It really is a joy and I, I am so thankful to be able to do it.

[01:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned in our little conversation today? Well, it seems clear that the scripture's giving us two really unique examples, differences of the Kingdom of God, and searching it out and finding its surpassing worth. But what's clear is that it's greater than everything anything else in life.

And when God opens a person's eyes through regeneration, they recognize it's supreme value and gladly give up all to gain Christ and His kingdom. I think we've also learned that penguin videos can be dangerous. They have real productivity, uh, consequences, and that itself is something that we ought to value.

So again, enjoy your penguins responsibly, and I would argue maybe, maybe not do it at work. Don't just do your work at work and then when you're on your free time, enjoy those penguins,

[01:01:56] Tony Arsenal: penguin. Penguin, do you enjoy the Benedict Cumberbatch? Can't say Penguin video that you are gonna look up immediately after this.

[01:02:05] Jesse Schwamb: We know you're gonna look it up. 'cause if you haven't seen it, it's, it is actually hilarious.

[01:02:10] Tony Arsenal: It, it definitely is. Yeah. I, yeah. I don't know what else to say about that, Jesse. Except, until next time, honor everyone.

[01:02:19] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this illuminating episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Jesus' parables of the mustard seed and leaven found in Matthew 13. These seemingly simple parables reveal profound truths about God's kingdom—how it begins imperceptibly, grows irresistibly, and transforms completely. The hosts delve into what these parables teach us about God's sovereign work in both our individual spiritual lives and the broader advance of His kingdom in the world. Believers can find hope in understanding that God intentionally works through what appears weak and insignificant to accomplish His purposes. This episode offers practical encouragement for Christians who may feel discouraged by the apparent smallness of their faith or ministry impact.

The parables of the mustard seed and leaven powerfully illustrate the paradoxical nature of God's kingdom. In both cases, something tiny and seemingly insignificant produces results far beyond what anyone would expect. As Tony noted in the discussion, what's critical is understanding the full comparison Jesus makes—the kingdom isn't simply like a seed or leaven in isolation, but like the entire process of planting and growth. Both parables involve something that initially "disappears" from sight (the seed buried in soil, the leaven mixed into dough) before producing its effect.

This reflects the upside-down nature of God's kingdom work, where what appears weak becomes the channel of divine power. For first-century Jewish listeners expecting a triumphant, militaristic Messiah, Jesus' description of the kingdom as beginning small would have seemed offensive or disappointing. Yet this is precisely God's pattern—beginning with what appears weak to demonstrate His sovereign power. This same pattern is evident in the incarnation itself, where God's kingdom arrived not through military conquest but through a humble birth and ultimately through the cross.

One of the most practical applications from these parables is the encouragement they offer when we feel our faith is insufficient or when the church appears weak. As Jesse noted, "God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that He is, He's always working." The kingdom of God advances not through human strength or visibility but through God's sovereign work.

These parables remind us that spiritual growth often happens imperceptibly—like bread rising or a seed growing. We may go through seasons where our spiritual life feels dry or stagnant, yet God continues His sanctifying work. Just as a baker must be patient while bread rises, we must trust the invisible work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in the church. When we feel discouraged by apparent lack of progress, these parables assure us that God's kingdom—both in our hearts and in the world—is advancing according to His perfect timing and plan.

As Tony explained, "The fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power...in actuality that smallness is its power." God deliberately works through weakness to display His glory, making these parables powerful reminders for believers in any era who may feel their impact is too small to matter.

"We shouldn't despise small beginnings. Let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel... Faithfulness and not visibility—that's the measure of fruitfulness." — Jesse Schwamb

"The Kingdom of Heaven is at work not only in our midst as a corporate body, but in each of us as well. God's grace and His special providence and His spirit of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy. He is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see outward progress or not." — Tony Arsenal

"What cultural transformation looks like is a man who gets married and loves his wife well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church... We transform culture by being honest, having integrity, by working hard... without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades." — Tony Arsenal

Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 468 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother, you and I have said it over and over again. One of the incredible truths that the Bible conveys about the kingdom of God is that it's inaugurated in weakness.

It's hidden. It advances irresistibly by the sovereign work of God through the Word and the Spirit. It transforms both individuals and nations until Christ's reign is fully revealed in glory. And so as we're about to talk about parables today, I can't help but think if that's one of the central positions of the Bible, and I think we both say it is how would you communicate that?

And here we find Jesus, the son of God, our great savior, you know where he goes. He goes, mustard seeds and yeast. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. And if you're just joining us maybe for the first time or you're jumping into this little series, which is to say, we do know tiny series, this long series on parables, you, I go back to the last episode, which is kind of a two-parter because Tony and I tried this experiment where we basically each separately recorded our own thoughts and conversation, almost an inner monologue as we digested each of those parables, both the one of the mustard seed and then the leaven sequentially and separately.

And now we're coming together in this episode to kind of talk about it together and to see what we thought of the individual work and to bring it all together in this grand conversation about the kingdom of God that's inaugurated and weakness and hiddenness.

Jesse Schwamb: So that's this episode, but it wouldn't be a episode without a little affirming.

And a little denying it seems, 22, we should this, every now and again we pause to say why we do the affirmations and denials. Why, why do we do this? What, what is this whole thing? Why are we bringing it into our little conversation every time?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, it, it, at its core, it's kind of like a recommendation or an anti recommendation segment.

We take something that we like or we don't like and we spend a little bit of time talking about it. Usually it ends up taking a little bit of a theological bent just 'cause that's who we are and that's what we do. And we use the language of affirmations and denials, uh, because that's classic, like reformed confessional language.

Right? If you look at something like the, um. I dunno, like the Chicago statement on Biblical and Errancy, which was primarily written by RC sprawl, um, it usually has a, a statement, uh, of doctrine in the form of things that we affirm and things that we deny. Um, or you look at someone like Turin, a lot of times in his, uh, institutes of elected theology.

He'll have something like, we affirm this with the Lutherans, or we affirm that or de deny that against the papus or something like that. So it's just a, a little bit of a fun gimmick that we've added on top of this to sort of give it a little bit of its own reformed flavor, uh, onto something that's otherwise somewhat, um, Baal or, or I don't know, sort of vanilla.

So we like it. It's a good chance for us to chat, kind of timestamps the episode with where we are in time. And usually, usually, like I said, we end up with something sort of theological out of it. 'cause that's, that's just the nature of us and that's, that's the way it goes. That's, and that's what happens, like when we're talking about stuff we.

Like when we're together at Christmas or at the beach, like things take that theological shift because that's just who, who we are, and that's what we're thinking about.

Jesse Schwamb: By the way, that sounds like a new CBS drama coming this fall. The nature of us.

Tony Arsenal: The nature of us? Yeah. Or like a, like a hallmark channel.

Jesse Schwamb: It does, uh,

Tony Arsenal: it's like a a, I'm picturing like the, the big city girl who moves out to take a job as a journalist in like Yosemite and falls in love with the park ranger and it's called The Nature of Us.

Jesse Schwamb: The nature of us Yes. Coming this fall to CBS 9:00 PM on Thursdays. Yeah. I love it. Well, this is our homage to that great theological tradition of the affirming with, or the denying against.

So what do you got this week? Are you affirming with something or you denying against something?

Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming. This is a little cheeky. I'm not gonna throw too much, much, uh, too much explanation. Uh, along with it. I'm affirming something. I'm calling no quarters, November. So, you know, normally I'm very careful to use quarters.

I'm very careful to make sure that I'm, I'm saving them and using them appropriately. And for the month of November, I'm just not gonna use any quarters. So there'll be no 25 cent pieces in my banking inventory for the month. Oh. So I'm, I'm making a little bit of fun. Of course. Obviously no, quarter November is a tradition that Doug Wilson does, where he just is even more of a jerk than he usually is.