In April, my family flew to Salt Lake City to pick up a campervan we bought and road-tripped home. We stopped in Bruneau Dunes State Park in Idaho, Craters of the Moon National Monument & Preserve also in Idaho, and John Day Fossil Bed National Monument.

It was a quick but lovely trip, and I recorded reflections each night of our trip to share about our experience and what we learned. Visiting the less grandiose-seeming public lands (state parks and national monuments), I realized how much I miss just by looking to visit national parks.

Bruneau Dunes, especially, was a sweet find because they have an observatory where they host evening programming on weekends from Spring to Fall. Craters of the Moon was super cool as well, and was where I found one of the best interpretive signs created in partnership with the local tribes, the Shoshone-Bannock. And the John Day Fossil Beds had some wild rocks and an incredible fossil museum in their visitor center.

Have you been to any of these spots? What other state parks and national monuments do you think we miss?

Note: If you’re listening to this in only audio form, you can check out some footage from our trip (with some other stock footage to fill out the space, lol) on Substack.

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When I heard Steph Littlebird on OPB in March, I wanted to talk with her immediately—not only does she exude vibrancy, she’s so succinct and clear-eyed about why we must have a relationship with the land. And then I saw her book, and I had to reach out. As you will hear shortly on our episode, Steph is an absolute delight! She’s an enrolled member of the Confederated Tribes of the Grande Ronde and brings her Indigenous background and connection to the land of the Pacific Northwest to her visual storytelling through both her artwork and writing.

Steph just published her debut book as an author, You Are the Land, which she also illustrated. You can buy the book anywhere you find books, especially your local indie bookstore.

You can learn more about Steph and check out her artwork and other books at www.stephlittlebird.com, you can follow her on Instagram here, and check out the exhibit she’s curating featuring the work of Indigenous artists from around the region at the Salem Art Association in Salem, OR the Fall!

I can’t wait for you to hear from Steph!

Some notes:

* In our discussion, Steph also mentioned the recent news that the Department of Natural Resources approved drones to spray glyphosate over recently logged land. Here are some more details on that.

* Travel Oregon just published an “Experience Indigenous Oregon” travel guide that for any visitors to our incredible region (and if I’m being honest, most of us locals as well), this is a great way to learn about the over 50 tribes whose land we live, work, and play on every day. Check that guide out today.

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I discovered the National Park Mystery Series a little over a year ago when a friend recommended it. Quickly, the series became my son and my nightly read-together books that got us through many months. We both became attached to the characters, middle schoolers, Jake, Amber, and Wes, and felt incredibly invested in their adventures. Deep into the series and this research, I knew I had to have the series author, Aaron Johnson on the podcast.

The series takes the three main characters through ten national parks on a two-month vacation with their families. Truly a trip of a lifetime! And it takes readers through the history, landscape, and current challenges the parks face.

In today’s episode, I talk with Aaron about the process of writing the books, what he loves about the national parks, and what he hopes readers will get out of the series. My son, Finch, also makes a brief appearance thanks to the interview having been scheduled on a day school was closed.

You can buy the first five books of the series wherever books or sold or online at www.nationalparkmysteryseries.com. You can also pre-order Book 6, which comes out this summer! A special plug, when you order the books from the series’ website, you get special gifts such as stickers and bookmarks!

In the episode, Aaron also mentioned that one of his favorite books that he’s read in the research for the series is I Am the Grand Canyon: The Story of the Havasupai People by Stephen Hirst.

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In the Charm of the Wilderness book project, I’m using the natural elements to shape the narrative. That theme guides each park or trip. The first of all of those was a trip to Yosemite National Park I took last year that centered on fire.

The two guys I interview this week played a big role in understanding the landscape of fire and fire management in the United States and the National Park Service and I’m excited for you two get to hear from them.

Stephen Pyne is emeritus professor from Arizona State University and one of the preeminent fire historians in the United States. His work includes The Pyrocene: How We Created an Age of Fire, and What Happens Next and the book that helped me learn about fire and fire management in Yosemite, Pyrocene Park: A Journey into the Fire History of Yosemite National Park.

Tom Nichols was the chief of fire and aviation for the National Park Service from 2005-2014. Worked in NPS from 1977-2014.

Note: I very clearly made a error in the video/audio with Tom’s bio noting his position with the NPS was from 2015 to 2014—the correct dates are 2005 to 2014.

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In 1972, the state of Montana imposed a constitutional mandate that required all K-12 schools in the state to teach “the distinct and unique cultural heritage of the American Indians” and committed to “its educational goals to the preservation of their cultural integrity.” This was a landmark step as Montana became the only state to require Native education as a part of its curriculum. With Montana being home to eight federally recognized American Indian tribes and about 78,000 American Indian individuals, this was an incredible step to take. Yet it took years to actually implement it effectively, though.

After decades of not following through with this mandate or not doing it well, tribal leaders, Indian educators, parents, and other activists lobbied the state and filed a lawsuit that led to a state law in 1999 that established Indian Education for Indian Education for All (IEFA), which is a program run through the state’s Office of Public Instruction (OPI). This is the only program of its kind in the country, making Montana uniquely alone in mandating Native education for all students in the state.

On today’s podcast, I have the distinct pleasure of talking with IEFA’s Mike Jetty, an Indian Education Specialist for OPI. I actually met Mike through Alli Depuy, who does a lot of work with IEFA, and, of course, Mike and his office have worked quite a bit with Shane Doyle, whose storytelling is featured in a lot of their programming.

I loved talking with Mike, and I can’t wait for you all to hear from him and to be treated to his (and his dad’s) jokes and the important work that he does for Montana.

Learn more about IEFA here. You can also check out videos from their programming here!

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When discussing and writing about the outdoors, there’s always an elephant in the room: the sheer Whiteness of the outdoors space. The major outdoor brands have admittedly struggled to diversify, and there’s a particular White Male Broey-ness that has always made me feel uncomfortable with the whole industry. I wrote about that a few months ago as well.

Things are changing, though, but it’s largely been led by people of color who have carved out their corner of the internet and the industry (I’ll include some links of folks to follow below). One area, though, where diversity in the outdoors has lagged, but is largely unacknowledged, is in the national parks. This, of course, is an extension of the general lack of diversity in outdoor spaces, but it’s important because these are federally run spaces that should be by and for all people. Yet they don’t represent the diversity of our nation.

That’s why I wanted to bring on KangJae Jerry Lee to the podcast, as he is one of a little more than a dozen researchers specifically looking at diversity in the outdoors. In 2021, he and his colleagues published a study they conducted about who does and does not visit the National Park Service units. They found that Black, Hispanic, and lower-income folks were least likely to visit compared to White respondents and that there was an increased concern about safety, and preferred alternate vacation locations such as sporting events, theme parks, and socially and culturally oriented destinations. Also, among those demographics, there was less knowledge about the NPS units.

Jerry and I talk all about this on the episode as well as his book, Violent and Verdant: Systemic Injustice in Public Parks in the U.S., which expands upon the research about diversity in the NPS units and generally about how White people have segregated and dominated outdoor and green spaces in both urban and rural areas.

Check out Jerry’s book from the library and learn more about him here.

And as promised, here are some of the people and BIPOC-focused organizations to check out to see how they’re advocating for diversifying the outdoors:

* Melanin Basecamp

* Afro Outdoors

* Biking While Black (full disclosure, I work on the communications with BWB!)

* Latino Outdoors

* José González (not to be confused with the well-known musician :) ).

* Teresa Baker

* Nelson Holland

Put any recommendations you have in the comments as well

Now enjoy the episode!

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In the aftermath of what’s been dubbed the “Valentine’s Day Massacre,” where the Trump Administration unceremoniously fired thousands of federal workers, Will C. De Man’s social media platform skyrocketed thanks to a post on Instagram expressing his empathy for the park rangers who lost their jobs. As a seventh-grade history teacher who also wrote the book A Short History of the National Parks: The Southeast, he hadn’t seen himself as an “advocate,” per se, but suddenly, with that one post, that is exactly what he became.

Since then, not only has Will written another book (published last month!), Creating the National Parks: Yellowstone, Glacier and Grand Teton, but he has also become one of the prominent content creators on social media helping to spread the word about the stripping down of our public lands by this Administration.

In this week’s episode, I talk with Will all about how he got here, interesting facts and information he’s learned while researching his books, how to advocate for your favorite public lands, and his favorite national park.

You can find Will at nationalparkhistory.substack.com, www.nationalparkhistory.com, on Instagram at nationalparkhistory, and you can find both his books on Bookshop.com.

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In January 2021, The Smithsonian Magazine published an article called “The Lost History of Yellowstone.” I was already in the middle of an awakening about the origins of how the land of North America became settler land (i.e., it was stolen from Indigenous peoples). The article interviews and follows researchers who had recently uncovered artifacts that proved what is now called Yellowstone National Park was a major thoroughfare for Native communities traveling through the Northern Plains region.

These artifacts were not only interesting archeology, but they proved that the land so many of us were taught was uninhabited before it became a national park was, in fact, inhabited, and it was sacred ground. It thwarted the myth that we were all sold, which actually covered up the atrocities committed by the U.S. government to force Native peoples out of the region.

In that story, then-research associate, Shane Doyle, who is a member of the Apsaalooke (Crow) Nation, was also interviewed. The story’s author, Andrew Geiger read a quote from a current-day Yellowstone brochure to Doyle and his colleague Doug MacDonald: “When you watch animals in Yellowstone, you glimpse the world as it was before humans.”

Geiger notes that Doyle burst out laughing and responded:

“The park is a slap in the face to Native people. There is almost no mention of the dispossession and violence that happened. We have essentially been erased from the park, and that leads to a lot of hard feelings, although we do love to go to Yellowstone and reminisce about our ancestors living there in a good way.”

I have continued to go back to this story time and again and knew that I wanted to talk with Shane for this book and podcast. So when Betsy Gaines Quammen told me that she and Shane were also friends (they both live in Boseman!) I was thrilled.

Since then, Shane has gone on to write a ton about Indigenous history and is doing so much for his community in Boseman. I’m excited for you to learn from him in this podcast.

Shane is in the process of planning a Tipi Village in Yellowstone for September 2026, which is meant to celebrate the Indigenous connection to the park. Stay tuned for more information on that.

For more of Shane’s writing, check out these stories:

* Land of Steam | National Parks Conservation Association

* Commemorating Yellowstone’s 150th Birthday with the Park’s ‘First Family’ | National Parks Conservation Association

* Actors: Making Meaning and Medicine in the Land of the Burning Ground | Mountain Outlaw

* Brilliance and Beauty: Celebrating the Gift of a Blackfoot Map | Distinctly Montana

* Following the Footsteps | Outside Bozeman

* Above the Sky | Big Sky Journal

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When my family was traveling to the National Parks in Southern Utah last November, I happened to be reading American Zion: Cliven Bundy, God, & Public Lands in the West by Betsy Gaines Quammen, and I became a little bit obsessed. The moment I put it down, I emailed Betsy to interview her for the book I’m working on and to invite her to be one of my inaugural guests for the podcast.

I’m excited for you to hear more from Betsy because she’s pretty badass and such a fun person. American Zion was her first book in 2020, so lucky you get a whole set of books to read of hers, all of which focus in some way on the mythologies we tell ourselves in the American West.

Here are links to her books and other resources we mention in this episode.

Betsy’s Books:

* This Haunted Land: Reckoning with Ghosts and Stories that Shape America (Forthcoming September 2026, Torrey House Press) — PRE-ORDER NOW!

* True West: Myth and Mending on the Far Side of America (2023, Torrey House Press)

* American Zion: Cliven Bundy, God, & Public Lands in the West (2020, Torrey House Press)

Other Resources Referenced:

* Bundyville Podcast — produced by Oregon Public Broadcasting and created and hosted by Leah Sotille. This is a great deep-dive into the Bundy family and links the events they led to Trump’s America.

* Public Lands & Grazing investigative report by High Country News and ProPublica

Find Betsy Online

www.betsygainesquammen.com

@ betsygainesquammen

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Welcome to the Charm of the Wilderness podcast! I’m thrilled to release our inaugural episode featuring not only an incredible educator, but one of my oldest and best friends, Allison Depuy.

In this episode, we talk about innovative ways to bring the outdoors to the classroom and how we can inspire our kids to be engaged in nature. Additionally, Alli helps me introduce the podcast and what Charm of the Wilderness is all about.

About Alli

Alli DePuy is the CEO of Inspired Classroom, is an accomplished educator, curriculum designer, and EdTech innovator with 25 years of experience. Through Inspired Classroom, she collaborates across the public and private sectors to design and implement project-based education experiences, innovative technologies, and mentorship programs that engage learners of all ages. Her work is widely recognized across Montana and supported by educators, organizations, the Office of Public Instruction, the Office of the Governor, and other state leaders.

Connect with us about Curio Camp

In this episode, Alli and I discussed a project that we’re working on, an interactive card deck for kids to be inspired and excited about nature. These decks include prompts for games, meditations, fun facts, and other ways to engage kids in the places they’re visiting.

Curio Camp is in the Beta stages and we are looking for families of elementary-age kids traveling to state or national parks this summer to help test out the product!

If this describes you, COMPLETE THIS FORM and we will be in touch!

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This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit charmofthewilderness.substack.com