Cheers & Tiers: Design Leadership Tales Retold

Terry Marks and Brien Thompson have been fixtures in Seattle’s design community for decades, though they’ve never served on the AIGA board at the same time. They take turns. Terry got pulled in by Jesse Doquillo despite not even being a member yet, and Brien accidentally launched his recruiting career at a Vegas conference after Terry forged him a badge to get into the parties.

This is a conversation about how relationships trump resumes, why Terry’s face ended up on the AOL homepage for impotence when he was 30, and what it means to build community when applying to 14 jobs gets you exactly one response. Also: how Brien built an entire staffing firm (Haystack Creative) on AIGA connections, and why the answer to “are you busy?” is always the wrong question.

Key Takeaways

• Relationships are the lingua franca of everything: Jobs, clients, careers—all of it comes down to who knows you and how much they care.
• AIGA was the only channel before online: National conferences and leadership retreats were how you met people and built your network across the country.
• Forge ahead (literally): Sometimes getting someone into the parties requires a trip to Kinko’s and some creative Photoshop work.
• Imposter syndrome is universal: Even self-taught designers who end up speaking across the country started out thinking they didn't belong.
• Volunteering is networking: If you’re looking for work, volunteer at events—you'll meet people and get in free.
• The job market is brutal, but it’s not you: Applying to hundreds of jobs with no response isn’t about your portfolio, it’s about the market.

Key Moments in This Episode

06:00 – The forged badge story: How Terry got Brien into Vegas AIGA parties via Kinko’s and Photoshop
10:00 – Meeting Michael Bierut with laryngitis: When Terry couldn’t talk and didn’t recognize one of the Michaels
14:00 – Taking turns on the board: How Terry and Brien have never served at the same time, and why that might have saved Terry’s marriage
22:00 – Erik and Brien’s origin story: How Brien’s dad—a pastor in Shelton—connected them
29:00 – Terry’s Photodisc fame: How a $40 photo shoot led to his face appearing on everything from Apple to AOL
33:00 – Relationships as business model: How Brien built Haystack Creative entirely on AIGA connections
42:00 – Solving the award book crisis: How Terry got 10,000 copies of a 350-page book printed when the deal fell through
46:00 – The job search black hole: Applying to 14 jobs, getting one “not filling this position” response, and the futility of AI-driven hiring
52:00 – How to actually get a job: Skip the portal, build relationships, find a recruiting firm, get face-to-face time

About Our Guests

Terry Marks is principal at TMarks Design, where he builds living brand systems that help teams move faster. A self-taught designer who co-founded Seattle's LINK program, he got his start in AIGA without even being a member—recruited by Jesse Doquillo to be the LINK liaison. He’s spoken across the country, appeared on more stock photography than he’d like to remember, and is currently back on the AIGA Seattle board.

Brien Thompson is founder of Haystack Creative, a recruitment and development expert specializing in design, UX, product, marketing, and creative industries. He’s been a connector in the Seattle design community for decades, serving on the AIGA Seattle Board as Sponsorship Director from 2002-2009. His career started accidentally—attending a Vegas AIGA conference with a forged badge, and discovering that relationship-based recruiting was his calling. He’s never served on the board at the same time as Terry—they take turns.

Featuring

Guest Terry Marks, connect on LinkedIn

Guest Brien Thompson, connect on LinkedIn

Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn

Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
• Subscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updates

Sponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop now
Sponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!
Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research

Amy Jo and MaeLin Levine have been running Visual Asylum together since 1987—and spending nearly as long proving that fearlessness is a San Diego AIGA tradition. In the early days, the chapter had $500 in the bank. A board member named Guy said: take money off the table and dream big. The answer became Y Conference, which ran for 26 years and inspired chapters across the country to launch their own events.

This is a conversation about framing Soviet posters when the USSR fell, following Bennett on an epic Toronto restaurant walk where people dropped like flies, and why Terry Marks couldn’t get a date. It’s about saving a chapter post-COVID with one email (not a single person said no), winning a World Design Capital bid during a pandemic, and the direct line from AIGA leadership to starting charter schools. Also: why you should never, ever suggest auctioning lawn chairs at a board meeting.

Key Takeaways

• Fearlessness becomes culture: When your chapter starts by importing Soviet posters during the fall of the USSR, you set a precedent for taking on big challenges.
• Remove money from the equation first: The Y Conference was born when someone said “take money off the table—what would you want to do?”
• Sell sponsorships to cover costs, sell tickets for profit: This funding model sustained Y Conference for 26 years.
• Leadership retreats create lifelong bonds: AIGA friendships lead to weddings, godparenthoods, and collaborations that last decades.
• What you give comes back tenfold: Ron Muriello's advice proved true—AIGA leadership builds confidence and opens doors you never imagined.
• Chapters need to pass the torch: The generation that built these programs is getting tired of schlepping water bottles—new leaders need to step up.

Key Moments in This Episode

03:20 – Framing Soviet posters: How MaeLin got recruited to work shoulder-to-shoulder with San Diego’s design who’s who

06:00 – The posters that wouldn't leave: When the Soviet Union fell, there was nowhere to send them back to—so the chapter kept them for 25 years

14:00 – Bennett’s epic restaurant walk: When 40 people started following Bennett in Toronto and only 6 made it to the end

17:00 – Terry Marks and the STD billboards: Why Seattle’s gorilla suit guy couldn’t figure out why no one would date him

19:00 – That one intimidating retreat: When MaeLin walked into a room with all the Michaels and Jennifers—and felt like the only normal person there

21:00 – Following Jesse and Terry to start LINK: How a leadership retreat conversation led to 30+ years of San Diego’s mentorship program

24:00 – The backyard that birthed Y Conference: Guy’s challenge to dream big when the chapter only had $500 in the bank

26:00 – We are NOT auctioning lawn chairs: MaeLin’s breaking point that redirected the chapter’s energy

31:00 – 26 years of Y Conference: How San Diego became the first chapter outside New York to run a major design conference

32:00 – The email that saved the chapter: When MaeLin asked former board members to help save AIGA post-COVID, not one person said no

35:00 – World Design Capital bid: How AIGA experience gave MaeLin the confidence to chair a world-class designation—during a pandemic

45:00 – What AIGA gave back: From Harvard Business School programs to starting charter schools—the direct line from leadership to life-changing opportunities

About Our Guests

Amy Jo Levine is co-founder of Visual Asylum, past president of AIGA San Diego-Tijuana, and former Y Conference chair. A typography expert who teaches advanced typography and wayfinding, she spent 17 years on the AIGA board—about 15 of which involved moving, reinstalling, or shipping those Soviet posters. She specializes in environmental design and making spaces actually communicate with people.

MaeLin Levine is co-founder of Visual Asylum, an AIGA Fellow, and incoming President’s Council Chair for AIGA National. She helped San Diego Tijuana win the World Design Capital 2024 designation, co-founded the Y Conference, and started Urban Discovery Academy, a K-8 charter school in San Diego. She’s been proving that designers can lead anything since she walked into a room to frame Soviet posters in 1987.

Featuring

Guest Amy Jo Levine, connect on LinkedIn

Guest MaeLin Levine, connect on LinkedIn

Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn

Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
• Subscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updates

Sponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop now
Sponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!
Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research

Rebecca Mushtare and Doug Bartow had a problem: how do you build design community across 5,000 square miles of upstate New York? The answer was equal parts strategic and scrappy—portfolio reviews in multiple cities, educator dialogues, and at one point, nine simultaneous “Cocktails for Creatives” meetups happening across the state on a Tuesday night.

In 2016, they traveled to Raleigh expecting to feel behind. Instead, they found chapters in Colorado facing the exact same challenges. This is a conversation about building hubs when you can’t be in one place, using Zoom before it was cool, and why that random student email deserves a reply. Also: the story of a very crowded glass room that Rebecca may or may not remember.

Key Takeaways

• Geographic challenges are universal: Upstate chapters aren’t behind—they’re dealing with the same hub-building problems as other large-state chapters.
• Networking compounds over time: The person you meet at a portfolio review might help you land a job a decade later.
• Virtual events were necessary before they were normal: Upstate New York was doing multi-location FaceTime meetups years before COVID made it standard.
• Faculty relationships sustain chapters: Students come and go, but faculty stay—and they bring new students into the community year after year.
• AI is a tool, not a designer: Use it for spreadsheets and color palettes, not for the creative work that makes you human.
• Accessibility isn’t optional anymore: WCAG compliance deadlines are real, and design thinking can lead the way.

Key Moments in This Episode

07:40 – Nine cocktails, simultaneously: How upstate New York activated hubs across Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Albany, and beyond
09:30 – The human pyramid moment: When Doug realized this retreat was going to push him way outside his comfort zone
12:20 – “We’re not that bad”: Meeting other geographic chapters at Raleigh and realizing upstate wasn’t behind after all
16:45 – Staying connected through students: Why recruiting students into chapter roles keeps the community alive
20:10 – The Get Out the Vote posters: How a Raleigh conversation led to exhibitions at the Women’s Rights National Historic Park
24:40 – AI isn’t going to replace designers: It’s CorelDRAW all over again—a tool, not a threat
27:00 – Designing for accessibility: Why WCAG deadlines matter and how color-blind designers use AI for palettes
30:50 – Paying it forward: Why answering that random LinkedIn message matters more than you think

About Our Guests

Rebecca Mushtare is Deputy Dean of Graduate Studies and Professor of Interaction Design at SUNY Oswego, specializing in accessibility and data visualization. As Education Director for AIGA Upstate New York, she organized student conferences, educator dialogues, and portfolio reviews across the state.

Doug Bartow is Design Director for the New York State Design System at NYS Office of Information Technology Services. He served as President of AIGA Upstate New York and has been running portfolio reviews in the Albany area for 17 years—including helping coordinate nine simultaneous cocktail meetups across New York State.

Featuring

Guest Rebecca Mushtare, connect on LinkedIn

Guest Doug Bartow, connect on LinkedIn

Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn

Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
• Subscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updates

Sponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop now
Sponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!
Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research

Amy Gustincic and Jay Ganaden both served as presidents of AIGA San Francisco—at different times, but with a shared passion for community, creativity, and experimentation. In this episode, they reflect on the wild ride of shaping SF’s chapter culture, from designing risk-friendly programming to redefining who AIGA is really for.

From parties that made the fire marshal nervous to retreats that sparked systemic change, they share lessons in leadership, legacy, and letting your weird ideas fly. Also: ghost tours, secret code names, and what happens when a national leader shows up and gets mistaken for security.

Key Takeaways

• Design is never neutral: Jay and Amy challenged who AIGA was for—and designed toward that
• Let the vision be weird: AIGA SF’s best programming came from instinct, not consensus
• Strategy that looked like a party: San Francisco’s signature move.
• Lead with impact, not polish: Jay reminds us that systems work beats showmanship
• Make your own template: They both pushed back on “default AIGA” in favor of community-first design

Key Moments in This Episode

01:05 – The earliest memories: student chapters, ghost tours, and blurry lines between volunteer and friend

03:40 – Amy’s presidency: events, vibes, and pushing the SF board into its weird era

06:00 – Jay’s turn: building a chapter brand that challenged national assumptions

08:25 – The party as strategy: from venues that smelled like cat pee to community as curation

12:40 – Fires, fire marshals, and the time Jay was mistaken for security

15:50 – Retreats and realignment: translating vibes into systems

18:30 – Leadership friction: why resisting default settings is part of the job

21:15 – After the presidency: when impact shows up in unexpected places

24:00 – Advice for future board members: don’t wait for permission

About Our Guests

Amy Gustincic is a designer and strategist based in the Bay Area, leading Studio Bellwether for over 15 years. She works with creative teams and organizations to articulate vision, align stakeholders, and turn possibility into reality. She also served as a past AIGA SF president, helping shape the chapter’s legacy of design-forward leadership.

Jay Ganaden is an experience strategy leader and creative executive, currently at Adobe. His career spans tech, finance, and design sectors—bringing a human-centered lens to complex systems and brand experiences. A former AIGA SF president, he believes deeply in “build it yourself” community-making, and using design as a mechanism for belonging.

Featuring

Guest Amy Gustincic, connect on LinkedIn

Guest Jay Ganaden, connect on LinkedIn

Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn

Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
• Subscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updates

Sponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop now
Sponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!
Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research

Allan Espiritu and Nick Prestileo didn’t set out to build a gallery, host legendary parties, or flip a mattress at an AIGA retreat—but somehow, they did all three. In this episode, the former AIGA Philadelphia presidents unpack a leadership era driven by joy, generosity, and a heavy dose of “why not?” They reflect on building a design community from the ground up, earning national credibility without losing their weirdness, and how trust, good vibes, and some tequila under the sink made Philly one of the most iconic chapters in AIGA history. Also: Art Chantry with a hammer, getting locked in a closet during an opening, and the power of just saying yes.

Key Takeaways

• Say yes, then figure it out: Nick’s “yes-man” energy led to leadership, chaos, and deep connection
• Joy is strategy: Allan led with fun and intention—not formality—and it worked
• Improv leadership works: The Philly board thrived on a “yes, and” model
• Make the rules you want to follow: Their chapter challenged AIGA norms and still pulled off a national retreat
•  Design community is real: Lifelong friendships, national networks, and a bar under the bathroom sink prove it

Key Moments in This Episode

00:55 – First AIGA impressions: From Manhattan design to mutual funds and velvet curtains

03:10 – Allan’s big goal: Build community, make Philly matter nationally

08:30 – Building a gallery, a vibe, and a keg-fueled design hangout

16:40 – Spody, sponsorships, and mystery wine in milk bottles

21:50 – The bathroom bar: Allan’s secret stash under the sink

28:40 – Salt Lake City retreat: colonial costumes and on-stage panic

35:40 – After-after-parties: A ruined mattress and a disassembled sink

42:10 – Leading by vibes: how Allan brought out the best in everyone

46:30 – The “yes, and” board: fun first, excellence followed

About Our Guests

Allan Espiritu is a designer, educator, and founder of GDLOFT PHL. He served as President of AIGA Philadelphia and is Chair of Graphic Design at Rutgers–Camden. Known for blending creative rigor with rebellious energy, Allan helped put Philly’s design scene—and its parties—on the map.

Nick Prestileo is a creative operations leader, design educator, and former AIGA Philadelphia President. Known for his spreadsheet skills, mascot costumes, and unstoppable yes-saying, Nick helped build one of AIGA’s most memorable chapter cultures.

Featuring

Guest Allan Espiritu, connect on LinkedIn

Guest Nick Prestileo, connect on LinkedIn

Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn

Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
• Subscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updates

Sponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop now
Sponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!
Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research

Before they were design royalty, Debbie Millman and Michael Bierut both remember what it felt like to be on the outside. Debbie got kicked out of an AIGA special interest group for doing work that was “too commercial.” Michael, working at one of design’s most prestigious studios, felt like a dinosaur compared to the experimental West Coast crowd.

In the late 1990s, before you could connect with designers online, AIGA was the only game in town. And getting seated next to the right person at a leadership dinner could change everything.

This is the story of how two people who didn’t quite fit in helped transform AIGA from an exclusive club into something more like a real community—one email, one dinner, one “yes” at a time.

Key Takeaways

• AIGA retreats were the only channel: Before digital, sitting next to the right person at dinner could change your career.
• Both sides felt excluded: Too experimental and too commercial designers have been shut out by AIGA—sometimes at the same time
• Getting kicked out taught inclusion: Being told her work was too commercial shaped how Debbie led as president.
• Leadership means making space: Especially for people who feel like outsiders.
• Saying yes builds community: To emails, invitations, and people who aren’t in the club.
• AIGA survived by embracing change: Desktop publishing, the internet, social media—every threat became an evolution.

Key Moments in This Episode

03:08 – The dinner that changed everything: Debbie sits next to Michael at the Baltimore leadership retreat
11:06 – Why that first dinner mattered: AIGA felt elitist, and the warmth of one conversation shifted everything
12:33 – The evolution question: Milton Glaser voices what democratizing AIGA will mean for the organization's identity
18:46 – Getting kicked out: Debbie is removed from the brand experience group for being too commercial
27:59 – AIGA’s impact on career: Both credit the organization as essential to their success
30:12 – Before digital connection existed: AIGA was the only way designers could meet each other
49:23 – Leadership advice: When in doubt, say yes
52:58 – Making people feel seen: Why Michael still answers every email he receives

About Our Guests

Debbie Millman is one of the most influential voices in contemporary design. Her podcast Design Matters is celebrating 20 years of documenting design culture with over 500 episodes, while her leadership at AIGA and SVA has helped democratize access to design education and community. A prolific author, brand consultant, and artist, she's built a career on the belief that design should be inclusive, intellectually rigorous, and deeply human.

Michael Bierut is a designer's designer—a Pentagram partner for 35 years (now semi-retired) whose client work is matched by his contributions to design discourse and education. From co-founding Design Observer to serving as AIGA President during a pivotal era of digital transformation, he's helped shape how designers think about their profession. For over three decades, he's taught at Yale School of Art, where his influence extends far beyond any single project or logo.

Featuring

Guest Debbie Millman, connect on LinkedIn

Guest Michael Beirut, connect on LinkedIn

Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn

Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
• Subscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updates

Sponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop now
Sponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!
Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research

Carlos Estrada and Oen Michael Hammonds have never worked in the same city, but they’ve long shared the same goal: making AIGA a more inclusive, welcoming space for everyone. In this episode, they reflect on decades of volunteer leadership across chapters, task forces, and national roles, while swapping stories about moments that changed them, students that inspired them, and the value of making space for others to shine.

From barstool pivots to back-to-back retreats, they unpack what it really means to lead with purpose, listen with humility, and make the design world feel a little less lonely. 

Key Takeaways

• Mentorship multiplies: Both Oen and Carlos credit student connections as their reason for staying in AIGA for the long haul.
• Listening matters: Some of the best leadership moments come from pausing, not pushing.
• Lead from the middle: Being on the team doesn’t always mean being in the spotlight.
• Keep the ladder down: They’ve both benefitted from people making space—and now they do the same.
• Representation matters: Seeing someone like you can shift an entire career path.

Key Moments in This Episode

00:55 – First AIGA impressions: A bar conversation that leads to decades of service

03:20 – From Puerto Rico to Detroit: Carlos finds design and identity at work

05:10 – Sorority house, party of one: Oen’s student housing surprises

07:40 – Finding community at AIGA Austin and AIGA Detroit

09:30 – Retreats that reveal real leadership: especially the awkward ones

12:20 – Letting others lead: why stepping back is a power move

16:45 – Students, stories, and staying connected

20:10 – The task force that changed everything

24:40 – Designing inclusion vs. checking boxes

27:00 – How local culture shaped each chapter’s evolution

30:50 – Advice for future leaders: Make space, then hold it

34:10 – The quiet confidence that builds belonging

About Our Guests

Carlos Estrada is a Creative Director and Information Architect with two decades of experience in print and digital design. He specializes in typography, interaction, and brand strategy—using design as a tool for communication and problem-solving. He’s worked with clients from Herman Miller to grassroots nonprofits and serves in AIGA leadership as Equity Chair and Detroit President. He also mentors through multiple community programs, championing inclusive design and meaningful impact.

Oen Michael Hammonds is a Senior Design Director who works at the intersection of design and business, guiding the strategy and delivery of experiences that support clear goals and real user needs. He partners across teams to build scalable, human-centered solutions. He also teaches globally and mentors early- and mid-career designers, sharing honest stories about the challenges and victories that shape a design career.

Featuring

Guest Carlos Estrada, connect on LinkedIn

Guest Oen Michael Hammonds, connect on LinkedIn

Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn

Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
• Subscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updates

Sponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop now
Sponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!
Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research

Two presidents of the same scrappy Charlotte chapter share what it’s like to step up without a roadmap. In this episode of Cheers & Tiers, we sit down with Carolyn Colonna and Taylor Nall, who each led AIGA Charlotte through very different moments of growth and experimentation.

They talk about the unexpected ways they found AIGA, what it means to lead with trust instead of ego, and why showing up with openness (and a well-placed DM) can create real change. There’s a quiet kind of bravery in simply showing up—and these two prove it matters.

Key Takeaways

• Don’t wait for permission: Carolyn stepped into the presidency during a leadership gap—without a plan, but with purpose.
• Cold DMs work: Taylor reached out to AIGA before he even graduated, and ended up president.
• Trust is everything: Both leaders focused on vulnerability and connection, not titles.
• Design solves everything: Even event engagement—just ask the Mullet Meter.
• Leave it better: Good leaders set others up to thrive after they’re gone.

Key Moments in This Episode

• 00:40 – Carolyn’s accidental presidency: stepping up during a leadership gap
• 03:20 – Taylor’s cold DM: reaching out to AIGA before graduating
• 06:05 – From college volunteer to board president: Taylor’s rise
• 08:10 – Leading with trust: Carolyn’s core approach
• 10:40 – Building the next team: why mentorship mattered
• 13:00 – Bridging leadership styles: collaborative handoffs and honest reflection
• 15:10 – The Mullet Meter: a playful way to track event vibes
• 16:30 – What future leaders need: permission, support, and follow-through

About Our Guests

Carolyn Colonna is a designer and creative leader based in Boston, MA. Her early career was spent in North Carolina where she helped steer AIGA Charlotte through a leadership gap with a human-centered, trust-first approach. Today she continues to create experiences and environments where creativity and connection thrive. 

Taylor Nall is the VP of Technology for carbonhouse, a digital agency based in Charlotte, North Carolina and was AIGA Charlotte’s youngest chapter president. He brought a fresh take on leadership, proving that initiative, authenticity, and a good sense of humor can take you far.

Featuring

Guest Carolyn Colonna, connect on LinkedIn

Guest Taylor Nall, connect on LinkedIn

Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn

Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
• Subscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updates

Sponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop now
Sponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!
Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research

What do pyramid photos, Harry Potter, and a karaoke dare from Debbie Millman have in common? They’re all part of Jenn Visocky O’Grady and Justin Ahrens’ journey through AIGA leadership—and proof that the best design stories don’t always happen on stage. In this episode, they reflect on 20+ years of retreats, road trips, poster campaigns, and unexpected friendships. From building student chapters and Design for Good initiatives to scaling purpose-driven work through their careers, they show how showing up (and sometimes singing) can change everything.

Key Takeaways

• You had to earn it: Retreats weren’t perks—they were rewards for doing the work.
• Brave questions open doors: Jenn’s habit of speaking up led to a lifelong friendship.
• Design for Good made waves: Local efforts grew into national campaigns with real impact.
• Relationships were the pipeline: Conferences led to collaborations, career moves—and family vacations.
• Small chapters mattered: Big ideas came from all corners, not just the coasts.
• You don’t need to pyramid: Even the cautious (hi Jenn) found their place—and their people.

Key Moments in This Episode

1. 00:45 – Meeting at Austin: Jenn and Justin cross paths at a leadership retreat and bond over a big design question
2. 04:15 – Chapter to national: How local board service led to the AIGA national stage
3. 06:40 – Design family: Retreats became the annual reunion neither of them wanted to miss
4. 08:40 – Commitment check: Rachel skips a cousin’s wedding to attend the Denver retreat
5. 10:00 – Heroes, humanized: From Debbie Millman karaoke to airport pickups with Kit Hinrichs
6. 12:20 – One brave question: Jenn speaks up, Justin notices—and a friendship begins
7. 17:55 – Chaos and costumes: Pizza suits, pyramid photos, and how scale gave projects life
8. 23:45 – Real-world prep: AIGA board service trained them for academic and agency leadership
9. 30:45 – What’s “good” now?: Memes, AI, and the missing design role models
10. 44:50 – Path to Impact: How one national initiative started with 200 members in Cleveland

About Our Guests

Jenn Visocky O’Grady  Jenn is Associate Dean and full professor at Cleveland State University, co-founder of AIGA Cleveland’s student chapter, and co-author of The Information Design Handbook (and three other books) with her husband Ken. Her design work has appeared in How, Print, and Communication Arts. These days she leads a massive academic department and still finds time for pyramid photos, family vacations, and community impact. Also known as “Safety Jen.”

Justin Ahrens  Justin is Chief Creative Officer of Rule29, a Certified B Corp focused on using design to create positive impact. He’s a TEDx speaker, podcast host (Design Of, Creative Shit Show), and co-creator of initiatives like Wheels for Water, which helped bring clean water access to over 20,000 people. He believes in community, vulnerability, and big swings—and credits AIGA for the most meaningful friendships in his life.

Featuring

• Guest Jenn Visocky O’Grady, connect on LinkedIn
• Guest Justin Ahrens, connect on LinkedIn
• Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn
• Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
• Subscribe to the Together by Design newsletter for more community-building and podcast episode updates

Sponsored by: Able Made, The Original Off Pitch Soccer Style: shop now
Sponsored by: Draplin Design Company, check us out!
Sponsored by: The People's Graphic Design Archive: browse, contribute, and research

Two leaders who first met at an AIGA conference and ended up married share how a small but mighty chapter built national programs—and how retreats, late nights, and a little chaos shaped their leadership journey. Laurel Webster and James “Jamey” Hersick trace their path from student chapters and dissolving boards to facilitating competitions like Flux, pulling off unforgettable events, and carrying design-for-good values into their client work. Along the way, they recount pyramids, beer swaps, and 6 a.m. lobby hangouts that turned colleagues into lifelong friends.

Key Takeaways

• Small chapters, big impact: Even under 100 members, Blue Ridge launched programs like Flux and Mock Up that went national.
• Jumping in works: Both Laurel and Jamey stepped into leadership without a roadmap and kept their chapter alive.
• Retreats change everything: Omaha, Denver, Grand Rapids, and Raleigh weren’t just meetings—they were accelerators for ideas and friendships.
• Traditions matter: Human pyramids, beer swaps, and the “6 a.m. club” became part of AIGA lore.
• Design for Good lives on: Early AIGA initiatives continue to guide their purpose-driven client work.
• Core values lead the way: Defining principles helped them align business, life, and leadership.

Key Moments in This Episode

1. 00:45 – Meeting at Pivot: Laurel and Jamey cross paths in Phoenix over a Design for Good panel and one unforgettable question.
2. 03:40 – Long-distance beginnings: Flying between West Virginia and California before deciding to make it official.
3. 06:15 – From treasurer to president: Jamey’s reluctant start in Blue Ridge leadership.
4. 07:40 – Jumping into the deep end: Laurel volunteers to be chapter president just months after moving cross-country.
5. 09:10 – Small but mighty: How Blue Ridge grew student programming and turned Flux into an international competition.
6. 13:25 – Retreat icebreakers: Jamey’s first encounter with Debbie Millman—and Omaha’s unforgettable Embassy Suites jungle.
7. 16:20 – Pyramid initiation: Laurel’s first glimpse of the human pyramid tradition at Grand Rapids.
8. 18:50 – Beer swaps and rooftop hangs: Why retreat room parties built lasting connections.
9. 20:30 – Finding belonging: When retreats transformed AIGA from cliquish to “these are my people.”
10. 25:20 – Lessons that stick: How facilitation, mentorship, and collaboration still shape their client work today.
11. 27:40 – From design to place: Current projects helping Alabama communities connect history, heritage, and future growth.
12. 34:40 – Core values in the air: A plane ride that pushed them to define personal and business principles.
13. 36:10 – Power of intimacy: Why small chapters created trust, agency, and innovation.
14. 40:00 – Punching above their weight: Blue Ridge’s Mock Up, mentoring tours, and even high school outreach.

About Our Guests

Laurel Webster is Principal and Creative Director of Hersick+Webster Creative Partners, the brand marketing agency she co-founded with her husband, James. Their award-winning work helps purpose-driven organizations create meaningful solutions for people and places, earning recognition from GDUSA, Print, and the Art Director’s Club. A California native now based in West Virginia, Laurel also serves on local nonprofit boards, teaches yoga, and stays busy with long-distance running, two sons, and three dogs.

James Hersick is Principal and Director of Strategy and Design Impact at Hersick+Webster Creative Partners, where he draws on more than 20 years of experience to help organizations build thriving, purpose-driven communities. His work spans five continents and has been honored by GDUSA, Print, and the Art Director’s Club. Active in his local community as a board member and organizer, James is also a writer, artist, and outdoorsman—when he’s not busy being Dad to two boys and three dogs.

Featuring

• Guest Laurel Webster, connect on LinkedIn
• Guest James Hersick, connect on LinkedIn
• Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn
• Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn

Support the Show

• Theme music: Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans
• Produced by Chapter 2 Media
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