January 12, 2021

Child Loss Story - One Living Twin

58 minutes

Jessica tells her story of grief, support and how she copes following the loss of one of her twins babies. She hopes to raise awareness to help others deal with similar situations and offers hope for the future. This connection was made on Reddit.

Transcript:----more----

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she was a twin her sister passed away

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in the hospital from an infection it's

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one of those things where we're actually

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engaged in litigation with the hospital

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because

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it was pretty blatant negligence like i

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really do remember

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just trying to exist and survive

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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hello welcome to life it is just me the

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podcast

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where we talk about the things that

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we're all going through we'll

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have to deal with in life my name's paul

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i'm joined today by ryan and

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jessica hi guys hi how are you doing

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really really good ryan how are you i'm

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all right what about you paul

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nobody ever asks you

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i'm good i know well that's what happens

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and you always do the intro so

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what's to be expected and that's right

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we are here to talk about having kids

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having

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children this is our focus for our our

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season just now our first season yes

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we don't offer any judgment we're just

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here to

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bring you some ideas and some stories

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and some experiences from people

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all around the world jessica that is why

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you are here tell us a bit about

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yourself please

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um i'm an american from the middle of

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america and like i said earlier let me

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just apologize on behalf of

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at least half of my country um

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i'm i've been married for nine years

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today actually it's

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awesome oh congratulations yeah thank

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you

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um all i want well thank you for joining

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us power at my house

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it's a short list i'm glad you mentioned

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the presidency because

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i just i was going to mention it you

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know in case someone's listening to this

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and i don't know

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2027 or something right now literally we

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are awaiting

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the results of some key states for the

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2020 presidential election

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yeah also you 100

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you mentioned the electricity in your

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house

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yes we just had a really terrible ice

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storm

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so um everything was frozen and the

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trees split and

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knocked down a lot of lines and half the

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city

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um this was last tuesday i haven't had

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power at my house since last tuesday so

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i have been

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living in a one-bedroom condo that some

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friends of ours owns we're very very

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fortunate on our end

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but i've also means i've been

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co-sleeping with a four-year-old

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and do not recommend zero out of ten

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i do not recommend so

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i've been i've been kicked i have been

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slapped i've been pushed

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um i don't know how people i don't know

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how people do that so

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yes that's where that's where i'm at i

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guess that sets the scene quite nicely

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in there

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you've told us about who you are and

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certainly you you have a kid

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you've got a four-year-old um and

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tell us then about about your life

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you're 34 just now

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and you're how old is your is your child

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she's four she's four now um

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so i had her in 2016 when the world was

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still good

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um that's a reference to coronavirus i

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believe or could be the election i don't

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know

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i don't know it's an election it's an

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election dig um

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yeah when i still had hope uh

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so um she was

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she um she's wonderful um

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most days most of the time

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i would keep her um

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uh no it's great um she was

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you know as we've talked about you know

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mentioned before she was a twin

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um her sister passed away

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in the hospital from an infection um

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the day after she was born so um

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and actually that is you know we're it's

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one of those things where we're actually

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engaged in litigation with the hospital

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because

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it it was negligence i mean it was

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pretty blatant

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um negligence so um

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you know so parenthood for me has been a

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mixed bag

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really you know we thought we were uh

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have one in let's see

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and then it was surprised too

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and then we were like okay we're done

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and then it was

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grief and joy and you know the tough

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times that you go through

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you know as a new parent just learning

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how to

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navigate that life because it's very

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different from your life before

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that's something that's come across and

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a lot of the conversations that that

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ryan i've had to ryan

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you've spoken on previous episodes about

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your own life situation and having two

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kids of your own and

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at my current where i am just now 20

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almost 29

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um don't have kids yet sort of in that

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quandary well i won't

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i sort of thing um which is why it's

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been so immensely helpful to to

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get some of these some of these ideas we

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we did say before that we would delve

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into some

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some possibly um uncomfortable places

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possibly

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for you listening possibly as well and

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jessica i thought we could maybe start

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by talking as much as as much as you

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you're able and you want to about

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what it's like what it was like if any

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you had

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we're going to have twins then having

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birth giving birth to twins and

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and then eventually losing one

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um yeah so um

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i uh

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it happened really quickly like i was so

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i'm an attorney and i was

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um we my husband and i kind of knew that

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we wanted to have kids i think

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but i also like you know wanted that

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license to practice law like in my hand

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i didn't want to be

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one of these you know i didn't want to

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be studying for a bar exam

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you know when i was pregnant and so

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but after after that you know i got i

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got pregnant really quickly and

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um i was very surprising and

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i just remember i had i had some issues

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and

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um my doctor had me go in for a very

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early ultrasound

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which is funny because it was on our

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anniversary it was on november 6th

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and uh i remember thinking like all

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right we're going to go out for dinner

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later

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and i'm either going to be really

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excited

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um or i'm gonna be sad and i'm gonna

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drink but either way there's something

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at the end of the tunnel

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and uh so we're sitting in the room and

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the

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you know the girl goes um listen if

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there's something to see i'll show you

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okay and and so she's looking around

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she's asking us

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how long have you been married you know

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is this your first pregnancy

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and all of a sudden she just stops and

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she goes i'll be right back and she

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leaves the room

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and i looked at my husband like this is

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this is bad

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you know there's not i'm i'm just like

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prepping myself and she comes back in

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she turns the screen and she goes okay

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um we found a heartbeat we actually

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found two

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and i'm thinking mine and the babies

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right like that's

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that equals two she turns the screen and

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she goes so here's

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baby a and here's baby b

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and i looked at my husband and then i

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looked at the bathroom door

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thinking somebody was going to pop out

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and just yell you've been pumped

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you know i was i the only thing i could

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say for like the next 10 to 15 minutes

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was what was happening literally those

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are the only

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words that could form in my mouth and

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um i don't know if you're going to have

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to believe that or whatever but it is

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just neither do we

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[Laughter]

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i assume what's happening like how not

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twice

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[Music]

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i'm also loving the fact that ryan's on

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an ever slight delay

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so we could do this for a few times it

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would take him just a few seconds to

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catch up

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okay okay um so yeah so

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it was just it was it was crazy

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um uh it was just crazy

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so um yeah and it's you know it's

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nerve-wracking because

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um you know i don't know if i don't know

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you know ryan is you have kids i don't

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know if you your wife had any experience

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with this but you know loss is very

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common

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um for women it's not you know it's

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it's not rare it happens a lot

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and so i think you know especially in

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like multiple pregnancies and i think i

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was always expecting

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something to go wrong you know so

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every time i went to the doctor and

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everything was fine it just became more

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and more real of like this is gonna be

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your life

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and um you know so it's exciting i

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mostly had a pretty

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you know un um uneventful pregnancy i

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was very lucky

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um so up until the end

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you know um

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so i um i went to the hospital as

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preeclamptic

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so um i my blood my blood pressure when

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i went to the hospital was

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i think 200 over 110.

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i basically should have like stroked out

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and

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died um so

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i don't know we don't really need to go

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into like you know the details of like

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giving birth but

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they got there and no please dude head

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to somewhere ended up having a c-section

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and the girls

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[Laughter]

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um so uh fine

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um so my my girls went to the nicu

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um i was recovering so my husband who is

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right you want to say hi chris hi hi

0:10:14.880,0:10:20.880

chris hi chris

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they say hi um he went up to the nicu

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with them and i stayed down in the um

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in the hospital room and what's the next

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view sorry i'm not familiar with that

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the neonatal intensive care unit okay

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thank you so um yep so the the nicu and

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um they just immediately started to have

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you know have to put um lena that was my

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daughter who passed away

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nora is my living daughter they had to

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put lena on a cpap and things just kind

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of started going downhill

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and we only found out later that they

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like suspected that she had an infection

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but they didn't give her antibiotics

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for 14 hours after

0:11:02.000,0:11:08.720

they suspected that so

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we um yeah so that look you know that

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was tough it was

0:11:09.760,0:11:14.480

um it's it's you don't expect that to

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happen to you

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because you go to hospitals where you

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trust

0:11:17.760,0:11:21.920

doctors and you think people stay on top

0:11:21.120,0:11:26.320

of things

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and as a new mother

0:11:26.320,0:11:30.880

who's never been in that position you

0:11:28.800,0:11:33.040

know new parents my husband too we

0:11:30.880,0:11:35.130

didn't know the questions to ask

0:11:33.040,0:11:36.560

you know we didn't know um

0:11:35.130,0:11:37.839

[Music]

0:11:36.560,0:11:41.920

we didn't know what was going on we

0:11:37.839,0:11:43.519

didn't understand um a lot of things so

0:11:41.920,0:11:46.720

0:11:43.519,0:11:49.680

so yeah that was uh

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we only got to you know hold her once i

0:11:49.680,0:11:55.279

held her as she passed

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and my husband took her

0:11:55.279,0:12:00.880

downstairs um

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and we were quiet we did request an

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autopsy and then

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she was buried two days later and i was

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still in the hospital i didn't

0:12:06.959,0:12:12.320

um we didn't go to her funeral it was

0:12:10.639,0:12:13.760

frankly it was just too it would have

0:12:12.320,0:12:18.720

been too much

0:12:13.760,0:12:20.880

so um so yeah that's

0:12:18.720,0:12:21.920

it's it's a very intense you know

0:12:20.880,0:12:25.040

intense moment

0:12:21.920,0:12:28.000

and it's really um

0:12:25.040,0:12:29.440

you join you know two clubs that you

0:12:28.000,0:12:31.920

never expected to join

0:12:29.440,0:12:33.600

you know and it's it's weird like i

0:12:31.920,0:12:37.680

thought i was gonna be a twin mom

0:12:33.600,0:12:41.040

and then i was you know a grieving mom

0:12:37.680,0:12:43.600

so uh you know

0:12:41.040,0:12:45.680

it was it was i would i really wouldn't

0:12:43.600,0:12:48.800

wish it on anybody

0:12:45.680,0:12:49.680

it was it was bad yeah i mean i've

0:12:48.800,0:12:51.839

spoken to you

0:12:49.680,0:12:53.120

thank you so much for appreciating so

0:12:51.839,0:12:57.040

much it's such a

0:12:53.120,0:13:00.320

powerful story and

0:12:57.040,0:13:03.680

for us my our pregnancy was nora was in

0:13:00.320,0:13:03.680

the nicu for three weeks

0:13:04.240,0:13:08.800

oh yeah sorry i'm on the delay anna you

0:13:07.360,0:13:11.200

could i'm just interrupting everybody

0:13:08.800,0:13:12.560

left right and center

0:13:11.200,0:13:14.880

yeah you've got quite you've got quite a

0:13:12.560,0:13:17.200

big delay no no ryan go go ahead

0:13:14.880,0:13:18.639

afterwards no i was just gonna say just

0:13:17.200,0:13:22.000

offer my experience

0:13:18.639,0:13:23.200

when we were having a baby um the exact

0:13:22.000,0:13:26.160

same thing about

0:13:23.200,0:13:27.920

trusting the hospital we didn't know

0:13:26.160,0:13:29.519

what to expect and we just thought

0:13:27.920,0:13:30.959

everything was going properly and

0:13:29.519,0:13:33.120

swimmingly and

0:13:30.959,0:13:34.000

my son and wife both got an infection

0:13:33.120,0:13:36.079

during the pregnancy

0:13:34.000,0:13:37.440

but because she'd been in labor for 72

0:13:36.079,0:13:39.839

hours

0:13:37.440,0:13:42.240

um and they hadn't tried to progress it

0:13:39.839,0:13:43.360

if they just um administered oxytocin if

0:13:42.240,0:13:46.480

we'd known at the time

0:13:43.360,0:13:48.160

that if we just requested that they give

0:13:46.480,0:13:50.560

her oxytocin to move her on

0:13:48.160,0:13:52.959

she would have been fine but because

0:13:50.560,0:13:55.040

they didn't bother they just

0:13:52.959,0:13:56.720

they prolonged the whole thing and they

0:13:55.040,0:13:59.839

both ended up obviously

0:13:56.720,0:14:01.120

um with an infection my wife almost bled

0:13:59.839,0:14:02.480

out i thought we were gonna lose her at

0:14:01.120,0:14:05.760

one point

0:14:02.480,0:14:07.600

and and you just assume that it's just

0:14:05.760,0:14:09.279

complications of pregnancy but as

0:14:07.600,0:14:11.360

for looking back and having had a second

0:14:09.279,0:14:13.680

child it was more than likely

0:14:11.360,0:14:14.839

negligence and just we didn't know any

0:14:13.680,0:14:17.839

better

0:14:14.839,0:14:17.839

0:14:21.839,0:14:26.880

it's so so interesting for me having not

0:14:24.720,0:14:30.800

experienced these things

0:14:26.880,0:14:33.600

yet possibly ever i don't know to

0:14:30.800,0:14:35.360

to hear similar stories in some ways and

0:14:33.600,0:14:39.120

and i wanted to ask you jessica having

0:14:35.360,0:14:39.120

spoken what you've just spoken about

0:14:39.360,0:14:43.760

what when you when you think back to

0:14:41.360,0:14:44.880

that time

0:14:43.760,0:14:47.920

just gone through what you've gone

0:14:44.880,0:14:49.519

through you've given birth to

0:14:47.920,0:14:51.760

nora i think you said you said her name

0:14:49.519,0:14:54.959

was is that her name is that right

0:14:51.760,0:14:57.920

and you've you've lost lena

0:14:54.959,0:15:00.800

how does that feel to have those two

0:14:57.920,0:15:00.800

polar opposites

0:15:00.880,0:15:05.920

um it

0:15:06.480,0:15:14.320

it was weird um you know

0:15:10.079,0:15:17.440

we um nora stayed in the nicu

0:15:14.320,0:15:19.279

for three weeks almost three weeks after

0:15:17.440,0:15:23.120

that

0:15:19.279,0:15:25.360

and we would we would go up and visit

0:15:23.120,0:15:25.360

her

0:15:25.600,0:15:29.600

but they and they moved her room but it

0:15:28.000,0:15:31.440

was right next door to the room that

0:15:29.600,0:15:34.959

lena died in

0:15:31.440,0:15:38.560

um and like you have these moments

0:15:34.959,0:15:40.399

of just sheer joy because you've still

0:15:38.560,0:15:43.120

made this person

0:15:40.399,0:15:43.839

and you still look at them and see

0:15:43.120,0:15:48.320

yourself

0:15:43.839,0:15:48.320

and you see your spouse and you know

0:15:48.399,0:15:53.360

someone once explained to me that like

0:15:50.399,0:15:55.199

having children was like

0:15:53.360,0:15:58.000

having another heart that is just

0:15:55.199,0:16:00.399

walking around outside of you

0:15:58.000,0:16:01.120

and that really is you know what it is

0:16:00.399,0:16:04.000

and so

0:16:01.120,0:16:07.600

that love is just so unconditional and

0:16:04.000,0:16:11.600

so strong but then there would be these

0:16:07.600,0:16:14.639

moments of just intense waves of grief

0:16:11.600,0:16:14.639

that um

0:16:14.720,0:16:18.079

you know like it was just it was just

0:16:16.079,0:16:19.440

really hard i'm there

0:16:18.079,0:16:22.079

nora shared a room with somebody in the

0:16:19.440,0:16:25.920

nicu and that baby's mother was there

0:16:22.079,0:16:28.000

probably eight hours a day and i was

0:16:25.920,0:16:29.440

just remembering to breathe and get out

0:16:28.000,0:16:31.839

of bed and

0:16:29.440,0:16:33.360

get dressed and go up there and if i

0:16:31.839,0:16:35.920

made it an hour or two

0:16:33.360,0:16:37.759

hours you know i had to go home and it

0:16:35.920,0:16:40.560

was just i wasn't

0:16:37.759,0:16:42.160

i didn't feel like a good parent but i

0:16:40.560,0:16:44.079

mean it was just

0:16:42.160,0:16:46.000

it was but that time also wasn't a blur

0:16:44.079,0:16:50.399

like i really do remember

0:16:46.000,0:16:52.800

um just trying to exist and survive

0:16:50.399,0:16:54.240

and it was very conflicting very very

0:16:52.800,0:16:56.560

conflicting

0:16:54.240,0:16:57.440

it's interesting that you mentioned

0:16:56.560,0:16:59.600

feeling that

0:16:57.440,0:17:03.040

as you put it to existence of fat as and

0:16:59.600,0:17:06.079

survive at the same time while

0:17:03.040,0:17:08.480

looking after the newborn child your

0:17:06.079,0:17:11.520

energy must have been

0:17:08.480,0:17:14.559

everywhere at once yeah it's

0:17:11.520,0:17:15.760

um you know as as ryan knows like

0:17:14.559,0:17:19.120

newborns are not

0:17:15.760,0:17:22.000

easy um but you noticed

0:17:19.120,0:17:23.600

after yeah after mentally preparing

0:17:22.000,0:17:26.640

ourselves for two

0:17:23.600,0:17:29.760

um it didn't feel

0:17:26.640,0:17:31.360

so difficult um you know we

0:17:29.760,0:17:32.799

instead of just one of us getting up in

0:17:31.360,0:17:34.080

the middle of the night we both got up

0:17:32.799,0:17:38.080

every single time

0:17:34.080,0:17:41.919

and we were each other's support um

0:17:38.080,0:17:43.200

you know and it was just it was

0:17:41.919,0:17:44.799

i would say it was like it was just a

0:17:43.200,0:17:46.320

quiet time you know there was a lot of

0:17:44.799,0:17:48.320

reflection and there was a lot of

0:17:46.320,0:17:51.520

thinking about what we had been through

0:17:48.320,0:17:54.880

and um you know trying to

0:17:51.520,0:17:57.280

trying to be good parents to um

0:17:54.880,0:17:58.400

to a baby that really that needed us and

0:17:57.280,0:18:01.679

depended on us

0:17:58.400,0:18:04.640

and you know um my

0:18:01.679,0:18:06.799

um someone once said to me like i i

0:18:04.640,0:18:08.960

admire your strength and like

0:18:06.799,0:18:10.320

and i just like you know my mom my mom

0:18:08.960,0:18:12.080

said to me when she was like you know

0:18:10.320,0:18:13.120

i'm just so amazed that you didn't give

0:18:12.080,0:18:16.000

up and it was like

0:18:13.120,0:18:16.640

what choice did i have you know like

0:18:16.000,0:18:18.799

it's not a

0:18:16.640,0:18:20.160

it's not a choice like who what was i

0:18:18.799,0:18:21.919

gonna do just

0:18:20.160,0:18:24.240

drop her off at my mom's house and my

0:18:21.919,0:18:26.840

mom was like yeah you could have

0:18:24.240,0:18:29.840

you know other people out there would

0:18:26.840,0:18:29.840

have

0:18:40.880,0:18:45.200

um so yeah it's hard to reconcile how

0:18:44.240,0:18:48.559

you dealt with that

0:18:45.200,0:18:48.559

you're not a superhero really

0:18:50.160,0:18:53.440

yeah hundred percent was just thinking

0:18:52.000,0:18:56.799

that i really was

0:18:53.440,0:18:57.200

um thank you after what what you've just

0:18:56.799,0:19:01.120

said

0:18:57.200,0:19:01.760

um i i don't mean to come across as in

0:19:01.120,0:19:04.880

any way

0:19:01.760,0:19:07.280

insensitive but it's something that for

0:19:04.880,0:19:07.280

me is

0:19:07.520,0:19:10.960

has crossed my mind and i thought i

0:19:08.720,0:19:12.240

would ask it so i wonder if

0:19:10.960,0:19:15.039

having gone through what you've gone

0:19:12.240,0:19:16.559

through does does nora does your

0:19:15.039,0:19:18.559

your living child if that's the right

0:19:16.559,0:19:20.559

way of putting it never

0:19:18.559,0:19:21.679

set servers as a constant reminder of

0:19:20.559,0:19:23.360

what you've been through or is that

0:19:21.679,0:19:26.080

something that you're able to

0:19:23.360,0:19:27.760

not move on from but sort of separate i

0:19:26.080,0:19:30.559

wonder

0:19:27.760,0:19:31.039

um so it's a very good question actually

0:19:30.559,0:19:34.160

and

0:19:31.039,0:19:37.360

um one of the

0:19:34.160,0:19:41.600

so oddly enough my brother

0:19:37.360,0:19:43.600

um had a loss his wife went into early

0:19:41.600,0:19:47.120

labor and he lost a daughter

0:19:43.600,0:19:50.480

26 weeks um

0:19:47.120,0:19:52.559

which is you know i um he's he's

0:19:50.480,0:19:54.000

also very religious so like he dealt

0:19:52.559,0:19:57.039

with his

0:19:54.000,0:19:59.840

grief in a much different way than i did

0:19:57.039,0:20:02.240

um but you know when the the couple

0:19:59.840,0:20:05.520

conversations that we had about it

0:20:02.240,0:20:07.760

you know he said um you know he said

0:20:05.520,0:20:09.840

like you you have a constant reminder

0:20:07.760,0:20:11.280

and you will always have a constant

0:20:09.840,0:20:15.120

reminder

0:20:11.280,0:20:17.520

um and it's it to some extent it is true

0:20:15.120,0:20:18.960

i mean birth things are hard milestones

0:20:17.520,0:20:23.120

were hard

0:20:18.960,0:20:24.960

you know um for a long time when i would

0:20:23.120,0:20:28.080

get nora dressed to leave the house

0:20:24.960,0:20:31.520

and put her in a carrier um

0:20:28.080,0:20:34.000

i could think of nothing but

0:20:31.520,0:20:34.559

how i would have juggled two carriers

0:20:34.000,0:20:37.919

you know

0:20:34.559,0:20:40.960

or um when i drew a bath it would be

0:20:37.919,0:20:43.440

um i would see an empty spot in the tub

0:20:40.960,0:20:45.760

you know like there's a there's always

0:20:43.440,0:20:49.520

an empty chair at my table

0:20:45.760,0:20:51.360

um but nora brings me a lot of joy

0:20:49.520,0:20:53.520

you know she's a wonderful wonderful

0:20:51.360,0:20:54.720

child and i'm like really proud to be

0:20:53.520,0:20:57.039

her mom

0:20:54.720,0:20:57.760

so it's it's just you know it's

0:20:57.039,0:20:59.679

bittersweet

0:20:57.760,0:21:02.559

everything the obvious one for me to ask

0:20:59.679,0:21:04.720

you about was um birthdays um

0:21:02.559,0:21:06.960

just the thought of that constant

0:21:04.720,0:21:08.400

reminder on a birthday that is it's the

0:21:06.960,0:21:10.640

same day

0:21:08.400,0:21:12.080

of your loss that's the same that you're

0:21:10.640,0:21:15.679

celebrating

0:21:12.080,0:21:16.240

um and i'm not sure i would be able to

0:21:15.679,0:21:18.559

cope

0:21:16.240,0:21:20.320

um if i'm honest and i think that you're

0:21:18.559,0:21:22.000

a very strong person for

0:21:20.320,0:21:25.600

for the mindset that you're putting up

0:21:22.000,0:21:25.600

across yeah 100

0:21:26.320,0:21:31.440

well i will say that um the girls were

0:21:29.919,0:21:35.440

born on may 10th

0:21:31.440,0:21:39.039

and lena actually passed on the 11th um

0:21:35.440,0:21:41.360

so i and i one of my you know

0:21:39.039,0:21:42.559

i just thought thank god it's it's not

0:21:41.360,0:21:45.760

the same day

0:21:42.559,0:21:47.520

because you know but um we've we've kind

0:21:45.760,0:21:50.960

of decided that may 10th

0:21:47.520,0:21:54.240

is nora's day and on

0:21:50.960,0:21:56.080

you know we um we don't

0:21:54.240,0:21:58.000

it's almost too depressing to go to the

0:21:56.080,0:22:00.880

cemetery on the 10th so we always

0:21:58.000,0:22:02.159

go on the 11th and we call it lena day

0:22:00.880,0:22:07.200

and

0:22:02.159,0:22:07.200

we try to do something that

0:22:07.360,0:22:12.240

you know that we usually take the day

0:22:10.000,0:22:16.000

off and try and find an activity that's

0:22:12.240,0:22:19.039

you know comforting or reflecting or

0:22:16.000,0:22:20.880

you know something like that so it's um

0:22:19.039,0:22:22.880

you know i know a lot of people i know

0:22:20.880,0:22:25.600

some people who have had losses too

0:22:22.880,0:22:27.120

that you know they always have a cake at

0:22:25.600,0:22:27.600

the at the birthday party actually no

0:22:27.120,0:22:30.159

one can

0:22:27.600,0:22:30.960

we know one couple who um that we met

0:22:30.159,0:22:34.000

through a

0:22:30.960,0:22:36.960

lost support group who also had a twin

0:22:34.000,0:22:39.039

um pass in a much different way you know

0:22:36.960,0:22:41.200

and they would do stuff like

0:22:39.039,0:22:43.440

um you know have have cakes from at the

0:22:41.200,0:22:47.760

party and do things like that and i just

0:22:43.440,0:22:50.400

um nora knows about her sister she knows

0:22:47.760,0:22:52.159

she's missing her sister she knows that

0:22:50.400,0:22:53.760

we miss her sister

0:22:52.159,0:22:57.120

and i think that that's enough to put on

0:22:53.760,0:22:57.120

a four-year-old so

0:22:57.360,0:23:01.120

i've kind of let her have you know her

0:22:59.840,0:23:05.120

space and her days

0:23:01.120,0:23:07.360

her day that's a very an interesting

0:23:05.120,0:23:09.280

and interesting way of of looking at it

0:23:07.360,0:23:12.400

to almost separate them into

0:23:09.280,0:23:13.280

two days it seems almost seems

0:23:12.400,0:23:16.880

comforting

0:23:13.280,0:23:18.480

for someone who's just really getting to

0:23:16.880,0:23:24.240

know you and your story that

0:23:18.480,0:23:24.240

almost makes me feel a bit warmer inside

0:23:24.640,0:23:29.760

yeah i mean i don't i don't want to like

0:23:28.000,0:23:31.679

nora's she's always going to kind of

0:23:29.760,0:23:32.720

have that hanging over her and it's not

0:23:31.679,0:23:34.720

like i'm not

0:23:32.720,0:23:36.799

subconsciously thinking about both of my

0:23:34.720,0:23:39.120

girls on their birthday before

0:23:36.799,0:23:40.320

i'm not you know wishing lena happy

0:23:39.120,0:23:43.520

birthday in my head

0:23:40.320,0:23:46.640

or um you know but

0:23:43.520,0:23:49.679

outwardly like

0:23:46.640,0:23:50.000

you know i need to i mean there's not a

0:23:49.679,0:23:52.640

right

0:23:50.000,0:23:54.000

answer you know there's just there's not

0:23:52.640,0:23:55.440

there's not a right thing to do and

0:23:54.000,0:23:58.080

we've just done the best we can

0:23:55.440,0:24:00.000

it sounds like of course and i was i was

0:23:58.080,0:24:02.320

going to save this for late

0:24:00.000,0:24:03.600

it does it does it definitely does i was

0:24:02.320,0:24:06.559

going to save this for later but

0:24:03.600,0:24:08.320

just because you brought it up just now

0:24:06.559,0:24:10.720

you mentioned

0:24:08.320,0:24:12.000

nora being aware of and knowing at four

0:24:10.720,0:24:15.520

years old that

0:24:12.000,0:24:18.400

she she has a sister and how did you

0:24:15.520,0:24:18.880

arrive at the decision to to tailor was

0:24:18.400,0:24:20.799

that

0:24:18.880,0:24:22.480

an easy decision was that something that

0:24:20.799,0:24:24.720

you and your husband discuss

0:24:22.480,0:24:27.039

to did you have similarly different

0:24:24.720,0:24:30.880

opinions how did that go

0:24:27.039,0:24:34.799

um we we decided

0:24:30.880,0:24:37.200

really early on that um

0:24:34.799,0:24:39.919

we weren't going to pretend that lena

0:24:37.200,0:24:41.520

didn't exist

0:24:39.919,0:24:44.000

and we weren't going to hide it from

0:24:41.520,0:24:44.000

nora

0:24:44.960,0:24:49.200

like we both knew that um and and you

0:24:47.440,0:24:51.039

know and i'll say the other thing is

0:24:49.200,0:24:52.799

and i don't know you know i don't know

0:24:51.039,0:24:55.840

that you guys would know this but

0:24:52.799,0:24:57.039

couples that lose children um you know

0:24:55.840,0:25:00.159

have an eight like almost

0:24:57.039,0:25:03.600

something like an 80 chance of

0:25:00.159,0:25:05.360

getting divorced um just because

0:25:03.600,0:25:06.640

you know people grieve in such different

0:25:05.360,0:25:10.320

ways and it's such

0:25:06.640,0:25:13.679

a um distinctively difficult

0:25:10.320,0:25:17.600

type of loss you know it just disrupts

0:25:13.679,0:25:19.520

the natural cycle of life you know um

0:25:17.600,0:25:21.440

so you know we also made a promise to

0:25:19.520,0:25:22.400

each other that if we were thinking

0:25:21.440,0:25:24.799

about her

0:25:22.400,0:25:26.640

or if we were having you know one of

0:25:24.799,0:25:28.640

those days and said what's wrong

0:25:26.640,0:25:29.760

instead of nothing like we wouldn't say

0:25:28.640,0:25:32.400

nothing

0:25:29.760,0:25:33.919

you know we wouldn't just push it under

0:25:32.400,0:25:35.760

the rug and pretend that things were

0:25:33.919,0:25:38.799

fine because things are not fine

0:25:35.760,0:25:40.799

when that happens to you you know so

0:25:38.799,0:25:42.559

um so very early on we would take note

0:25:40.799,0:25:44.559

of the cemetery when we would go visit

0:25:42.559,0:25:45.520

and we would try to explain things and

0:25:44.559,0:25:46.559

there were some really tough

0:25:45.520,0:25:50.000

conversations

0:25:46.559,0:25:51.440

um you know she would ask if lena was

0:25:50.000,0:25:54.720

sleeping

0:25:51.440,0:25:58.080

and you know

0:25:54.720,0:25:59.919

why there was a rock on top of her and

0:25:58.080,0:26:01.600

you know how is she gonna get out if

0:25:59.919,0:26:05.120

there's a rock on top of her

0:26:01.600,0:26:06.880

and that was a lot of you know she's

0:26:05.120,0:26:09.279

she's slowly come to understand that

0:26:06.880,0:26:12.640

like no people don't come back

0:26:09.279,0:26:14.480

and lena's not just sleeping um but that

0:26:12.640,0:26:18.559

we can love her from here

0:26:14.480,0:26:21.600

and um you know we in judaism we take

0:26:18.559,0:26:24.480

rocks out to uh the cemetery

0:26:21.600,0:26:25.679

so whenever we go somewhere we'll look

0:26:24.480,0:26:28.320

for rocks to take

0:26:25.679,0:26:30.000

to lena or nora will come home with

0:26:28.320,0:26:30.960

something from school like they painted

0:26:30.000,0:26:32.720

rocks one time

0:26:30.960,0:26:34.320

and she said i made this for lena you

0:26:32.720,0:26:38.240

know and so

0:26:34.320,0:26:40.240

no we're very much open about it okay

0:26:38.240,0:26:41.760

i fascinate against it ryan i know

0:26:40.240,0:26:42.559

you're on ever so slight delay so i want

0:26:41.760,0:26:44.240

to give you

0:26:42.559,0:26:46.480

a little bit of chance to to react

0:26:44.240,0:26:49.200

before um yeah loads to say

0:26:46.480,0:26:49.760

um i've always got less to say that's my

0:26:49.200,0:26:52.000

problem

0:26:49.760,0:26:53.679

maybe the internet connection it's good

0:26:52.000,0:26:54.960

it's making me listen instead of talking

0:26:53.679,0:26:58.080

too much

0:26:54.960,0:27:01.440

um no but i just think

0:26:58.080,0:27:04.880

yeah yes you guys um

0:27:01.440,0:27:06.080

i've done an amazing job honestly i've

0:27:04.880,0:27:08.799

got two i've got two kids

0:27:06.080,0:27:10.240

and i don't know how i would i it

0:27:08.799,0:27:13.679

doesn't even be a thinking of

0:27:10.240,0:27:15.520

like that kind of loss um we have had

0:27:13.679,0:27:18.000

that loss in the family uh

0:27:15.520,0:27:20.240

my mom i was had a very late pregnancy

0:27:18.000,0:27:21.919

with a new husband

0:27:20.240,0:27:24.399

and she had complications and ended up

0:27:21.919,0:27:26.640

with a stillbirth so

0:27:24.399,0:27:28.960

um the difficulty for her was she never

0:27:26.640,0:27:30.880

ever got

0:27:28.960,0:27:32.640

a birth certificate or anything because

0:27:30.880,0:27:33.120

they deemed that she hadn't taken a

0:27:32.640,0:27:35.440

breath

0:27:33.120,0:27:36.880

so therefore she never existed and my

0:27:35.440,0:27:40.000

mum couldn't cope with that

0:27:36.880,0:27:44.559

in the slightest so i've seen it from

0:27:40.000,0:27:44.559

outside but not experienced

0:27:46.720,0:27:50.640

just seeing how strong you have been as

0:27:48.720,0:27:53.279

a as a family and

0:27:50.640,0:27:55.360

listening to your your daughter um

0:27:53.279,0:27:57.279

trying to reconcile that whole thing is

0:27:55.360,0:27:59.440

it's really empowering it's really kind

0:27:57.279,0:28:03.840

of wonderful to be honest

0:27:59.440,0:28:03.840

and just how great you've handled it and

0:28:04.720,0:28:10.320

um yeah yeah

0:28:08.320,0:28:12.240

and just to add as well my own

0:28:10.320,0:28:14.799

experience um

0:28:12.240,0:28:16.000

i had an aunt i remember probably in my

0:28:14.799,0:28:18.559

my youth maybe as a

0:28:16.000,0:28:20.480

young teenager my aunt went through a

0:28:18.559,0:28:20.880

similar thing to what you just said ryan

0:28:20.480,0:28:21.919

0:28:20.880,0:28:24.240

going back to what you said earlier

0:28:21.919,0:28:25.279

jessica about how how common it actually

0:28:24.240,0:28:26.799

is and

0:28:25.279,0:28:28.480

perhaps you listening as well maybe can

0:28:26.799,0:28:29.279

relate you may be yourself or know

0:28:28.480,0:28:31.039

someone and

0:28:29.279,0:28:33.120

it does seem to be something that so

0:28:31.039,0:28:36.320

many people go through so it's great

0:28:33.120,0:28:36.320

to have the conversation as well

0:28:36.720,0:28:40.640

let's take a short break if you don't

0:28:37.919,0:28:44.159

mind just for a minute or two um

0:28:40.640,0:28:46.080

no perfect you recording mine

0:28:44.159,0:28:48.720

i am yes thank you and it's nice to be

0:28:46.080,0:28:50.960

with you this time instead of like

0:28:48.720,0:28:52.799

crazy satellite delay definitely yes i

0:28:50.960,0:28:54.159

know it truly is like a zoom call that

0:28:52.799,0:28:55.679

way it was really hard for me because i

0:28:54.159,0:28:58.080

was like i can't interrupt

0:28:55.679,0:28:59.600

no no no no i was saying that during the

0:28:58.080,0:29:01.360

break as well jessica was like ryan

0:28:59.600,0:29:02.399

often has so much to say it's great to

0:29:01.360,0:29:05.200

have him and

0:29:02.399,0:29:05.919

i was so cautious of of seeing too much

0:29:05.200,0:29:07.600

and

0:29:05.919,0:29:10.799

we're good we have a whole another

0:29:07.600,0:29:10.799

segment now so i don't

0:29:10.840,0:29:14.320

know

0:29:12.720,0:29:15.760

the tone of this segment is going to be

0:29:14.320,0:29:16.559

a lot different just because i can

0:29:15.760,0:29:17.919

actually react

0:29:16.559,0:29:20.399

i think i'll just mute myself i'll just

0:29:17.919,0:29:22.559

go let you guys just just be a two-man

0:29:20.399,0:29:25.200

show

0:29:22.559,0:29:26.240

all right uh so jessica we've spoken a

0:29:25.200,0:29:28.480

lot about

0:29:26.240,0:29:29.279

your journey up to this point and you've

0:29:28.480,0:29:32.080

shared with us

0:29:29.279,0:29:33.120

such amazing insight into how you've

0:29:32.080,0:29:36.240

coped with

0:29:33.120,0:29:39.120

with unthinkable circumstances we

0:29:36.240,0:29:40.159

our idea for this podcast came about to

0:29:39.120,0:29:42.240

try and talk about

0:29:40.159,0:29:43.679

the the thoughts and the feelings the

0:29:42.240,0:29:46.159

emotions that go along with having kids

0:29:43.679,0:29:49.039

and we met online through reddit

0:29:46.159,0:29:49.520

where you were talking about potentially

0:29:49.039,0:29:52.320

having

0:29:49.520,0:29:54.799

another child so i want to sort of delve

0:29:52.320,0:29:58.880

into that if you will um

0:29:54.799,0:30:02.240

firstly do you feel that you

0:29:58.880,0:30:05.440

needs or need i guess four years

0:30:02.240,0:30:07.279

to between your loss and your first

0:30:05.440,0:30:08.399

birth to get this point or was that

0:30:07.279,0:30:11.200

something that

0:30:08.399,0:30:12.559

would happen for a different reason or

0:30:11.200,0:30:16.559

0:30:12.559,0:30:19.600

yeah i mean short answer yes um

0:30:16.559,0:30:23.600

about six months after

0:30:19.600,0:30:26.320

um the girls were born and i lost lena

0:30:23.600,0:30:28.320

um i did get pregnant again and um i

0:30:26.320,0:30:31.200

actually i miscarried

0:30:28.320,0:30:32.240

here's the interesting thing my

0:30:31.200,0:30:36.880

headspace

0:30:32.240,0:30:39.120

was really um i can fix this

0:30:36.880,0:30:40.240

right like i can fix this if i can just

0:30:39.120,0:30:43.840

have another one

0:30:40.240,0:30:47.120

i was supposed to have two i need two

0:30:43.840,0:30:48.480

like that's what's wrong um you know and

0:30:47.120,0:30:49.919

i just think there was a lot of things

0:30:48.480,0:30:51.440

going on there i don't think my body was

0:30:49.919,0:30:53.760

ready to be pregnant again

0:30:51.440,0:30:54.559

i it had been through trauma you know

0:30:53.760,0:30:58.000

and

0:30:54.559,0:30:59.600

um so i think

0:30:58.000,0:31:01.120

after that i was just like you know i

0:30:59.600,0:31:03.200

need a break i need to heal

0:31:01.120,0:31:04.799

i need to raise my daughter and then

0:31:03.200,0:31:06.720

yeah so it took

0:31:04.799,0:31:08.399

it took three and a half four years to

0:31:06.720,0:31:11.519

get to a point now where

0:31:08.399,0:31:13.679

we've kind of said to each other like

0:31:11.519,0:31:15.679

i think this is you know this feels

0:31:13.679,0:31:18.240

right now

0:31:15.679,0:31:19.919

so did that time arrive at the same time

0:31:18.240,0:31:22.159

for both of you or do you feel one of

0:31:19.919,0:31:25.360

you was ready before the other

0:31:22.159,0:31:27.600

um i think we were

0:31:25.360,0:31:29.360

on pretty similar timelines there was

0:31:27.600,0:31:32.480

definitely a

0:31:29.360,0:31:34.720

big period in there where we said

0:31:32.480,0:31:34.720

0:31:35.519,0:31:42.960

that we were done just because

0:31:39.200,0:31:42.960

i didn't think that i could

0:31:43.279,0:31:46.320

i didn't think that i had the mental

0:31:45.440,0:31:49.919

capacity

0:31:46.320,0:31:53.200

to go through all of that again um

0:31:49.919,0:31:55.360

that's understandable though yeah right

0:31:53.200,0:31:57.120

because it's a lot even when nothing bad

0:31:55.360,0:32:00.080

happens i mean

0:31:57.120,0:32:00.799

you know it's it's just it's a lot of

0:32:00.080,0:32:02.640

stress

0:32:00.799,0:32:04.080

and it's stress on you and stress on

0:32:02.640,0:32:07.200

your body and on your family

0:32:04.080,0:32:10.240

and um you know it was

0:32:07.200,0:32:12.240

it was always a fight i think because

0:32:10.240,0:32:14.399

um the thought of nora being alone when

0:32:12.240,0:32:17.519

she was never supposed to be alone

0:32:14.399,0:32:19.200

you know was really weighing on me

0:32:17.519,0:32:20.799

but then i would think but that's not a

0:32:19.200,0:32:23.760

reason to have a kid

0:32:20.799,0:32:25.279

you know or it would be the you know i

0:32:23.760,0:32:25.919

need another one because i was supposed

0:32:25.279,0:32:29.519

to have two

0:32:25.919,0:32:31.440

that's not a reason to have a kid um

0:32:29.519,0:32:33.440

so i think it kind of it was an

0:32:31.440,0:32:36.240

evolution of

0:32:33.440,0:32:38.080

um feeling like feeling out what the

0:32:36.240,0:32:42.080

wrong reasons were

0:32:38.080,0:32:42.080

until i came up with the right reasons

0:32:46.480,0:32:51.279

um i think i i think i kind of realized

0:32:50.320,0:32:53.440

that like

0:32:51.279,0:32:55.760

i have love in my heart for another

0:32:53.440,0:32:58.240

child that i haven't met yet

0:32:55.760,0:32:59.600

you know like um i'm always like having

0:32:58.240,0:33:01.039

another child doesn't mean i'm gonna

0:32:59.600,0:33:03.360

forget lena

0:33:01.039,0:33:04.880

and it doesn't mean i've moved on like

0:33:03.360,0:33:08.399

it doesn't have to mean that

0:33:04.880,0:33:10.720

you know um but just that

0:33:08.399,0:33:12.000

if i have another child i want that

0:33:10.720,0:33:13.760

child for that child

0:33:12.000,0:33:15.279

and not because i'm missing something

0:33:13.760,0:33:17.360

else in my life

0:33:15.279,0:33:18.880

yeah i think um that would have been

0:33:17.360,0:33:21.200

something that would wear my mind

0:33:18.880,0:33:22.799

and obviously you your mindset seems way

0:33:21.200,0:33:24.240

more positive than mine would be in the

0:33:22.799,0:33:27.039

same situation

0:33:24.240,0:33:28.240

um but i would always be second guessing

0:33:27.039,0:33:30.720

myself wondering

0:33:28.240,0:33:32.960

whether or not i was trying to replace

0:33:30.720,0:33:36.080

like a space or that that

0:33:32.960,0:33:38.159

person or um for that reason

0:33:36.080,0:33:39.360

and i i assume you've been through that

0:33:38.159,0:33:42.799

thought process yourself

0:33:39.360,0:33:43.919

but um i don't know

0:33:42.799,0:33:45.279

again i think you're a bit of a

0:33:43.919,0:33:46.240

superhero because i don't know if i

0:33:45.279,0:33:48.960

could go

0:33:46.240,0:33:49.279

through the same thought process well

0:33:48.960,0:33:51.039

but

0:33:49.279,0:33:52.320

you already have because you know that's

0:33:51.039,0:33:53.679

what you're saying and

0:33:52.320,0:33:55.840

those are the same you know it's the

0:33:53.679,0:33:57.200

same thought process i have i had and

0:33:55.840,0:33:58.480

like part of the reason that we waited

0:33:57.200,0:34:00.080

is because

0:33:58.480,0:34:02.559

we didn't want to bring a child into the

0:34:00.080,0:34:04.080

world as a replacement for someone else

0:34:02.559,0:34:06.000

yeah you know because that's not fair to

0:34:04.080,0:34:08.000

them yeah it's understandable

0:34:06.000,0:34:10.240

but some people might not be might not

0:34:08.000,0:34:12.000

have been as self-aware and have

0:34:10.240,0:34:14.480

made that same choice they might have

0:34:12.000,0:34:15.679

just gone straight into it without a lot

0:34:14.480,0:34:18.800

of thought you know

0:34:15.679,0:34:20.720

and i think that again just

0:34:18.800,0:34:22.240

shows the power of the strength in you

0:34:20.720,0:34:25.200

that you have waited

0:34:22.240,0:34:25.599

i mean four years is arguably not a long

0:34:25.200,0:34:28.720

time

0:34:25.599,0:34:29.760

a gap between like two children for

0:34:28.720,0:34:32.079

example

0:34:29.760,0:34:33.520

and some people wait a lot longer before

0:34:32.079,0:34:37.280

they have another child

0:34:33.520,0:34:40.399

so they chose i think your resolve and

0:34:37.280,0:34:42.800

your strength as well as a family that

0:34:40.399,0:34:44.800

after such what you could call a short

0:34:42.800,0:34:46.960

time four years

0:34:44.800,0:34:48.159

that you're ready to to be in that

0:34:46.960,0:34:50.560

headspace again again

0:34:48.159,0:34:52.399

it just kind of you're an impressive

0:34:50.560,0:34:52.960

person that's that's my point of view

0:34:52.399,0:34:55.919

anyway

0:34:52.960,0:34:56.560

thank you i want to take you back to

0:34:55.919,0:34:58.560

something

0:34:56.560,0:34:59.920

that you said just a moment ago jessica

0:34:58.560,0:35:01.440

that stuck with me so much that i've

0:34:59.920,0:35:02.800

written it down so i can read out what i

0:35:01.440,0:35:05.760

think is verbatim

0:35:02.800,0:35:06.640

um and it almost comes back to the crux

0:35:05.760,0:35:09.599

0:35:06.640,0:35:10.320

why we want to do this podcast or

0:35:09.599,0:35:12.560

certainly

0:35:10.320,0:35:14.160

why i want to do this season and you

0:35:12.560,0:35:17.119

spoke about having

0:35:14.160,0:35:18.720

i think word for word space in your

0:35:17.119,0:35:21.599

heart space in my heart um

0:35:18.720,0:35:25.280

for another child is what you said and i

0:35:21.599,0:35:27.359

think that struck me so much because

0:35:25.280,0:35:30.320

i'm in the place right now as i said

0:35:27.359,0:35:33.520

earlier not that far off 30

0:35:30.320,0:35:35.680

and i don't

0:35:33.520,0:35:37.440

know what i want to do i don't know

0:35:35.680,0:35:41.200

where i want to go and

0:35:37.440,0:35:42.800

i mentioned to you before um i teach i

0:35:41.200,0:35:45.520

teach in secondary school and

0:35:42.800,0:35:46.400

that takes up a huge amount of my life

0:35:45.520,0:35:48.800

and my energy

0:35:46.400,0:35:50.320

in a good way you know what i have so

0:35:48.800,0:35:52.880

much passion for what i do and

0:35:50.320,0:35:54.720

i work with children young people five

0:35:52.880,0:35:58.720

days a week

0:35:54.720,0:36:01.599

and i don't know i'm conflicted

0:35:58.720,0:36:03.599

i feel like i do have the space and then

0:36:01.599,0:36:05.599

i feel like i don't have the space and

0:36:03.599,0:36:06.640

i just kind of want to delve into to

0:36:05.599,0:36:09.760

your

0:36:06.640,0:36:11.920

how you arrived at that that's um

0:36:09.760,0:36:13.839

you know but here's the thing is that

0:36:11.920,0:36:17.359

you will have space

0:36:13.839,0:36:19.440

no really i mean it it um they say that

0:36:17.359,0:36:21.440

you know like women become mothers like

0:36:19.440,0:36:22.960

as soon as they become pregnant like it

0:36:21.440,0:36:26.000

just is inherent

0:36:22.960,0:36:27.280

and fathers become fathers when they see

0:36:26.000,0:36:29.520

that kid for the first time and it

0:36:27.280,0:36:32.480

becomes very very real

0:36:29.520,0:36:32.880

um and my husband is one of these guys

0:36:32.480,0:36:36.079

that

0:36:32.880,0:36:38.160

just he's like a deer in the headlights

0:36:36.079,0:36:39.920

it takes him so long to like get used to

0:36:38.160,0:36:41.280

an idea we just bought a new car and he

0:36:39.920,0:36:42.800

was just like

0:36:41.280,0:36:45.119

i mean he wouldn't almost talk to me for

0:36:42.800,0:36:46.960

a week because he was so

0:36:45.119,0:36:48.480

like terrified at the amount of money

0:36:46.960,0:36:51.200

that we just spent you know

0:36:48.480,0:36:53.599

and like now he loves it he just zoom

0:36:51.200,0:36:56.640

zooms around town and like you know but

0:36:53.599,0:36:58.480

it took him a while and um

0:36:56.640,0:36:59.760

so you know he was when he found out

0:36:58.480,0:37:01.280

we're having twins and everything i mean

0:36:59.760,0:37:02.880

it was just like

0:37:01.280,0:37:04.640

i just kept i mean i'd look at him all

0:37:02.880,0:37:08.640

the time and be like is this okay

0:37:04.640,0:37:11.760

like what was he gonna do about it yeah

0:37:08.640,0:37:12.880

you know too late now but um you know

0:37:11.760,0:37:16.320

like are you okay like

0:37:12.880,0:37:19.599

you know is this is this okay um

0:37:16.320,0:37:22.880

but you know like may 10 2016

0:37:19.599,0:37:24.560

like his whole world changed and whether

0:37:22.880,0:37:28.079

he wasn't sure that there was room

0:37:24.560,0:37:30.160

or you know it his heart was made

0:37:28.079,0:37:31.680

he had no choice you just fall in love

0:37:30.160,0:37:34.079

you know and

0:37:31.680,0:37:35.440

um i'm not gonna lie you know you give

0:37:34.079,0:37:36.240

up certain things when you become a

0:37:35.440,0:37:39.119

parent

0:37:36.240,0:37:40.720

um you give up certain freedoms um my

0:37:39.119,0:37:42.880

favorite is people who have

0:37:40.720,0:37:45.119

you know pets and dogs oh this is my

0:37:42.880,0:37:46.720

furry baby you know my furry animal is

0:37:45.119,0:37:50.720

like no idea like no

0:37:46.720,0:37:52.400

no say thank you thank you i've got cats

0:37:50.720,0:37:53.760

it's not the same thing i can put some

0:37:52.400,0:37:55.440

food down and walk out

0:37:53.760,0:37:57.280

and not see that for a couple of days

0:37:55.440,0:37:58.560

you know i can't do that with my kids it

0:37:57.280,0:38:00.800

would be friendly right

0:37:58.560,0:38:02.480

right legal when it's legal for me to

0:38:00.800,0:38:05.520

kennel my child

0:38:02.480,0:38:08.800

and just like yeah exactly then let's

0:38:05.520,0:38:10.480

talk you know it's just um

0:38:08.800,0:38:11.839

so yeah like things are things are more

0:38:10.480,0:38:13.359

difficult and that was definitely

0:38:11.839,0:38:16.480

something that we thought about

0:38:13.359,0:38:18.400

um you know america is probably

0:38:16.480,0:38:19.599

probably one of the worst countries that

0:38:18.400,0:38:23.119

you can become a parent

0:38:19.599,0:38:26.000

in you know um parental leave is a joke

0:38:23.119,0:38:26.720

you know um daycare is ridiculously

0:38:26.000,0:38:29.359

expensive

0:38:26.720,0:38:30.720

because there's no parental leave um it

0:38:29.359,0:38:33.920

it definitely

0:38:30.720,0:38:37.280

makes life a lot harder

0:38:33.920,0:38:38.640

um but it's worth it we're

0:38:37.280,0:38:41.920

a little bit better off over here

0:38:38.640,0:38:45.040

because we do have um

0:38:41.920,0:38:47.359

parental leave but um we get it as well

0:38:45.040,0:38:48.079

like we i could take time off i could

0:38:47.359,0:38:50.560

share it yeah

0:38:48.079,0:38:51.359

i could share it i did for my from my

0:38:50.560,0:38:54.079

firstborn

0:38:51.359,0:38:55.839

um i shared it with my wife um she had

0:38:54.079,0:38:57.440

already said that she was going back to

0:38:55.839,0:38:57.920

work and she was only going to take half

0:38:57.440,0:39:00.000

the

0:38:57.920,0:39:01.920

the time period so i stayed over the

0:39:00.000,0:39:04.880

other half of the time period with

0:39:01.920,0:39:05.280

my son and then i was amazing being just

0:39:04.880,0:39:07.440

that

0:39:05.280,0:39:08.320

i didn't go back to work i became the

0:39:07.440,0:39:10.160

parental i

0:39:08.320,0:39:11.680

became the main caregiver in the house

0:39:10.160,0:39:13.520

oh my husband would love it he says

0:39:11.680,0:39:16.800

that's his dream

0:39:13.520,0:39:20.079

right it has his moments

0:39:16.800,0:39:23.119

um what i would want to say to

0:39:20.079,0:39:24.880

to paul is um you've got space in your

0:39:23.119,0:39:28.720

heart but maybe not space in

0:39:24.880,0:39:31.839

your um your professional life yet

0:39:28.720,0:39:33.599

you've not made that headspace you've um

0:39:31.839,0:39:35.200

you've clearly obviously thinking about

0:39:33.599,0:39:36.880

it so the space is in your heart but i

0:39:35.200,0:39:38.960

would say that it's probably

0:39:36.880,0:39:40.320

the logistic stuff that's not falling in

0:39:38.960,0:39:42.320

place for you yet

0:39:40.320,0:39:43.680

um i will say this so when it happens

0:39:42.320,0:39:46.000

you have no choice you just get ready

0:39:43.680,0:39:47.760

well

0:39:46.000,0:39:49.760

yeah i've been i've been told i've seen

0:39:47.760,0:39:53.280

it firsthand

0:39:49.760,0:39:55.440

jessica i delving really deep here

0:39:53.280,0:39:56.640

and a really philosophical question for

0:39:55.440,0:39:59.839

you but

0:39:56.640,0:40:04.160

how how did you both

0:39:59.839,0:40:08.079

your husband yourself know

0:40:04.160,0:40:10.000

now or around about now that yeah

0:40:08.079,0:40:12.000

this is what we want to do are we pretty

0:40:10.000,0:40:15.760

sure this is what we want to do

0:40:12.000,0:40:15.760

have another child um

0:40:17.520,0:40:20.640

you want an honest answer yeah go on

0:40:19.760,0:40:22.079

please yeah

0:40:20.640,0:40:24.640

yeah you're not sure is that the

0:40:22.079,0:40:26.079

honestly no well no well that's

0:40:24.640,0:40:27.920

i mean that's that's a good point like

0:40:26.079,0:40:29.280

you're never really sure and that's

0:40:27.920,0:40:31.440

really what it comes down to

0:40:29.280,0:40:32.480

is um you know you can do all the

0:40:31.440,0:40:34.560

financial planning

0:40:32.480,0:40:36.400

all the bucket you know bucket list

0:40:34.560,0:40:37.599

travel you can do all of that and still

0:40:36.400,0:40:40.880

not be ready

0:40:37.599,0:40:41.839

and it's kind of a um get ready to bleep

0:40:40.880,0:40:44.000

again but it's a

0:40:41.839,0:40:45.839

get off the pot situation like you

0:40:44.000,0:40:48.560

either do it or you don't

0:40:45.839,0:40:50.000

you know um because i think if you think

0:40:48.560,0:40:52.560

too much about it

0:40:50.000,0:40:54.319

you won't do it you know now now all i'm

0:40:52.560,0:40:56.800

thinking about is the movie clerks

0:40:54.319,0:40:58.319

that's where you've through my headspace

0:40:56.800,0:41:02.560

yeah it's just gone over my head

0:40:58.319,0:41:04.240

yeah um but also like some truth here is

0:41:02.560,0:41:05.280

that my husband is seven years older

0:41:04.240,0:41:09.680

than me

0:41:05.280,0:41:13.520

um so he's 41. um

0:41:09.680,0:41:16.400

and um as my doctor so lovingly

0:41:13.520,0:41:18.480

reminded me i am not 21 anymore thanks

0:41:16.400,0:41:22.079

for that

0:41:18.480,0:41:24.160

um yes i really appreciated that

0:41:22.079,0:41:25.119

and so it kind of became one of those

0:41:24.160,0:41:28.160

things where

0:41:25.119,0:41:29.839

um you know uh

0:41:28.160,0:41:32.000

if we're gonna do it let's just do it

0:41:29.839,0:41:36.960

because we're not getting any younger

0:41:32.000,0:41:40.800

and um i mean if we're you know like

0:41:36.960,0:41:41.440

why not so so yeah i mean it's a little

0:41:40.800,0:41:46.000

bit of

0:41:41.440,0:41:48.240

um just reality kind of sets in

0:41:46.000,0:41:49.839

because i probably you know you say i'm

0:41:48.240,0:41:51.359

a superhero but like honestly i probably

0:41:49.839,0:41:56.000

could have waited 10 years

0:41:51.359,0:41:58.079

and still like been wondering

0:41:56.000,0:41:59.440

yeah like i'm always gonna wonder if i'm

0:41:58.079,0:42:01.040

ready like

0:41:59.440,0:42:02.800

it's that doesn't part of it just

0:42:01.040,0:42:06.079

doesn't really go away

0:42:02.800,0:42:08.000

um you just have to decide i mean

0:42:06.079,0:42:09.359

there's a moment there's there's there

0:42:08.000,0:42:10.880

was a moment you know

0:42:09.359,0:42:12.960

after you take the test it comes back

0:42:10.880,0:42:16.800

positive that i was just like what

0:42:12.960,0:42:19.359

did i do what did i do

0:42:16.800,0:42:21.280

you know and there are still some times

0:42:19.359,0:42:24.319

when nora is having a tantrum

0:42:21.280,0:42:26.640

or um you know

0:42:24.319,0:42:28.720

just is being a monster and i'm like

0:42:26.640,0:42:32.319

what did i do

0:42:28.720,0:42:32.319

why do i want to do this again

0:42:32.640,0:42:36.640

it's interesting you say you shouldn't

0:42:35.359,0:42:38.400

overthink it

0:42:36.640,0:42:40.319

because now i'm sort of wondering

0:42:38.400,0:42:42.050

whether making a podcast about it was

0:42:40.319,0:42:45.940

the best idea or not but anyway too late

0:42:42.050,0:42:45.940

[Laughter]

0:42:50.400,0:42:54.160

but it's not it's not too late to just

0:42:52.400,0:42:56.160

throw caution into the wind i mean

0:42:54.160,0:42:57.359

you know how it works you just gotta do

0:42:56.160,0:43:01.359

0:42:57.359,0:43:03.920

how does that work jessica oh to me

0:43:01.359,0:43:05.680

get my bleeper button where did i put it

0:43:03.920,0:43:07.500

let's talk about all the other things

0:43:05.680,0:43:10.319

that americans are bad about teaching

0:43:07.500,0:43:12.319

[Laughter]

0:43:10.319,0:43:13.760

does does not know i don't think that's

0:43:12.319,0:43:15.119

just america

0:43:13.760,0:43:17.440

yeah that's a good point that's a good

0:43:15.119,0:43:19.119

point does nora know that this is

0:43:17.440,0:43:20.880

on your mind or is that a conversation

0:43:19.119,0:43:24.839

that that's not come up yet or is it

0:43:20.880,0:43:27.599

going to come up um

0:43:24.839,0:43:30.800

it it will she doesn't know

0:43:27.599,0:43:34.240

um that this is kind of what we want now

0:43:30.800,0:43:36.720

um nobody knows except for you guys

0:43:34.240,0:43:37.359

wow and the internet let's not let's not

0:43:36.720,0:43:41.520

put the same

0:43:37.359,0:43:43.920

really early oh it's fine i mean

0:43:41.520,0:43:44.640

you know the thing is is that um we

0:43:43.920,0:43:46.000

don't want to get

0:43:44.640,0:43:47.680

we don't want to get our hopes up we

0:43:46.000,0:43:48.319

don't want to get anybody else's hopes

0:43:47.680,0:43:51.200

0:43:48.319,0:43:52.960

um you know nor like some of the things

0:43:51.200,0:43:56.400

that i've heard nora say

0:43:52.960,0:43:57.359

um i just don't wanna i don't wanna

0:43:56.400,0:44:00.079

disappoint

0:43:57.359,0:44:01.680

you know so i think even if even if we

0:44:00.079,0:44:04.560

do get pregnant and

0:44:01.680,0:44:05.520

um i probably won't tell her for a while

0:44:04.560,0:44:09.839

until i feel

0:44:05.520,0:44:13.280

good about things you know um

0:44:09.839,0:44:17.200

but uh she'll be so excited

0:44:13.280,0:44:20.839

she is a like she loves to baby things

0:44:17.200,0:44:23.839

she pretends to do all the mommy stuff

0:44:20.839,0:44:23.839

0:44:28.880,0:44:32.560

we've got a boy and a girl and they're

0:44:30.480,0:44:33.920

completely different and he could not

0:44:32.560,0:44:36.960

care less about

0:44:33.920,0:44:37.440

animals and people off up there he's

0:44:36.960,0:44:41.040

more like

0:44:37.440,0:44:43.520

can i play pokemon just just like

0:44:41.040,0:44:43.520

that then

0:44:44.880,0:44:49.119

come on you're learning too many of my

0:44:47.760,0:44:50.560

secrets

0:44:49.119,0:44:52.560

we like dressed nora in like gender

0:44:50.560,0:44:53.280

neutral clothes and gave her like toy

0:44:52.560,0:44:55.359

hammers

0:44:53.280,0:44:58.319

and like she was just like princesses

0:44:55.359,0:45:01.040

and pink and dresses

0:44:58.319,0:45:03.119

like how did i make that we did not push

0:45:01.040,0:45:05.119

any gender roles on either of our kids

0:45:03.119,0:45:06.560

and other people we did get a bit

0:45:05.119,0:45:07.920

outside influence on that where it's

0:45:06.560,0:45:10.240

like grandparents would be like

0:45:07.920,0:45:12.319

you have to wear this yes no you're not

0:45:10.240,0:45:16.000

allowed to wear a dress jackson

0:45:12.319,0:45:18.560

yeah you're not allowed um

0:45:16.000,0:45:19.520

let them wear two two whatever yes as

0:45:18.560,0:45:22.079

long as he's happy

0:45:19.520,0:45:23.680

um so we have never ever pushed any

0:45:22.079,0:45:24.400

gender roles on any of our kids but they

0:45:23.680,0:45:26.319

have fallen

0:45:24.400,0:45:27.839

quite happily into the boy who plays

0:45:26.319,0:45:29.520

with these guys

0:45:27.839,0:45:31.359

and the girl who's got the princesses in

0:45:29.520,0:45:32.319

the castle and we have not pushed that

0:45:31.359,0:45:34.480

in any way

0:45:32.319,0:45:36.079

it's an interesting study into nature

0:45:34.480,0:45:38.640

versus nurture

0:45:36.079,0:45:39.359

yeah yeah definitely an interesting

0:45:38.640,0:45:40.720

study because

0:45:39.359,0:45:42.960

i thought we were doing a good job of

0:45:40.720,0:45:44.720

not influencing that and

0:45:42.960,0:45:46.400

it's just happening why do i feel a good

0:45:44.720,0:45:49.119

idea for a podcast season coming on let

0:45:46.400,0:45:49.119

me just write that down

0:45:49.680,0:45:52.800

i mean it's so true it's so true i mean

0:45:52.079,0:45:54.640

nora will say

0:45:52.800,0:45:57.040

stuff like boys can't have long hair and

0:45:54.640,0:46:00.240

i'm like yes they can

0:45:57.040,0:46:02.160

girls can have short hair boys and she

0:46:00.240,0:46:03.760

has a good friend at school

0:46:02.160,0:46:05.520

who like dressed up as elsa for

0:46:03.760,0:46:06.400

halloween a little boy like dressed up

0:46:05.520,0:46:08.319

like elsa

0:46:06.400,0:46:09.839

and i just love that i have friends who

0:46:08.319,0:46:12.880

like we're strong enough

0:46:09.839,0:46:14.960

definitely yeah like they're so

0:46:12.880,0:46:16.319

supportive of like their kids no matter

0:46:14.960,0:46:17.440

their age they're just like this is who

0:46:16.319,0:46:21.599

they are and that's fine

0:46:17.440,0:46:24.960

you know yeah jessica do you

0:46:21.599,0:46:28.400

do you have any fears going forward um

0:46:24.960,0:46:31.520

about possibly having another child

0:46:28.400,0:46:31.520

yeah then i'll regret it

0:46:32.800,0:46:37.599

you just put my mind at ease and now

0:46:34.720,0:46:39.440

it's going mad again

0:46:37.599,0:46:42.640

here's the thing here's here's what

0:46:39.440,0:46:46.480

really kind of put me at the um

0:46:42.640,0:46:49.760

at the starting line of number three

0:46:46.480,0:46:53.599

i guess technically is um

0:46:49.760,0:46:57.280

you know i have moments

0:46:53.599,0:46:59.920

all the time with nora that i think

0:46:57.280,0:47:01.680

why did i do this you know i don't have

0:46:59.920,0:47:02.480

i mean i don't have the freedom that i

0:47:01.680,0:47:05.599

used to have

0:47:02.480,0:47:08.720

life is more expensive it's harder

0:47:05.599,0:47:11.599

but it's fuller and i love

0:47:08.720,0:47:13.200

her so much and she's just such a joy

0:47:11.599,0:47:16.160

and she's a wonderful

0:47:13.200,0:47:19.359

wonderful human being and i just get so

0:47:16.160,0:47:22.400

excited about the prospect of like

0:47:19.359,0:47:24.240

watching her grow and nurturing whoever

0:47:22.400,0:47:27.839

it is that she's going to be and i

0:47:24.240,0:47:30.480

and i just i think about um

0:47:27.839,0:47:32.079

you know that i could do that again and

0:47:30.480,0:47:32.480

and i'm going to have those regrets

0:47:32.079,0:47:34.319

again

0:47:32.480,0:47:36.480

i'm going to have tantrums in the middle

0:47:34.319,0:47:39.680

of the supermarket where

0:47:36.480,0:47:41.920

are your children

0:47:39.680,0:47:44.000

yeah where i'm just like i could have

0:47:41.920,0:47:45.200

had i could have had a different life

0:47:44.000,0:47:49.280

you know but

0:47:45.200,0:47:52.319

um i'll never that's the thing

0:47:49.280,0:47:54.079

but i'll never regret doing it

0:47:52.319,0:47:56.160

you know like i'll never regret that

0:47:54.079,0:47:58.079

child like i there's always going to be

0:47:56.160,0:47:59.520

regrets but i would regret it more if i

0:47:58.079,0:48:01.839

didn't do it

0:47:59.520,0:48:04.160

you know i would always look back and i

0:48:01.839,0:48:07.520

think i think i would be a little

0:48:04.160,0:48:08.640

bit more empty and i think that's where

0:48:07.520,0:48:11.440

i'm at is that

0:48:08.640,0:48:12.240

um yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna have regrets

0:48:11.440,0:48:14.640

i mean

0:48:12.240,0:48:16.000

yeah it's gonna happen um but i'd have

0:48:14.640,0:48:18.880

more if i didn't

0:48:16.000,0:48:20.160

yeah so i've kept the scales in this in

0:48:18.880,0:48:24.319

favor of

0:48:20.160,0:48:24.800

yeah yeah simple as that really yeah

0:48:24.319,0:48:26.319

yeah

0:48:24.800,0:48:28.640

that that makes sense in my head i can

0:48:26.319,0:48:30.720

see the scales that you know

0:48:28.640,0:48:32.480

that yeah that works for me it does

0:48:30.720,0:48:35.839

listed the pros and cons quite clearly

0:48:32.480,0:48:37.760

there and yeah yes yeah and

0:48:35.839,0:48:39.520

the thing is that's very personal to you

0:48:37.760,0:48:39.839

because other people even listening to

0:48:39.520,0:48:42.000

this

0:48:39.839,0:48:43.839

or in different stages of their lives

0:48:42.000,0:48:47.040

will have a different set of priorities

0:48:43.839,0:48:48.880

and a different scale to to use and

0:48:47.040,0:48:50.480

different things on each side you've

0:48:48.880,0:48:52.960

made that really quite easy

0:48:50.480,0:48:54.720

for people to see where your heads at

0:48:52.960,0:48:56.240

and what and what you're thinking

0:48:54.720,0:48:57.920

which is perfect for what we're trying

0:48:56.240,0:49:01.440

to achieve here 100

0:48:57.920,0:49:02.880

yes you just mentioned earlier jessica

0:49:01.440,0:49:04.510

about

0:49:02.880,0:49:06.319

initially um

0:49:04.510,0:49:09.440

[Music]

0:49:06.319,0:49:12.559

worrying about perhaps

0:49:09.440,0:49:15.280

trying to rebalance and encompass

0:49:12.559,0:49:17.359

having another child as a result of

0:49:15.280,0:49:20.559

having lost a child

0:49:17.359,0:49:22.480

do you worry that that is

0:49:20.559,0:49:23.920

happening again or do you feel that

0:49:22.480,0:49:27.920

you've moved on

0:49:23.920,0:49:29.839

from that um

0:49:27.920,0:49:32.400

that's another double-edged sword right

0:49:29.839,0:49:34.800

because um

0:49:32.400,0:49:36.880

i don't know that i would want another

0:49:34.800,0:49:40.559

one had lena lived

0:49:36.880,0:49:42.720

um so that's always kind of there in the

0:49:40.559,0:49:46.079

back

0:49:42.720,0:49:49.119

but this idea of fixing something

0:49:46.079,0:49:50.319

that can't be fixed um that's not there

0:49:49.119,0:49:52.720

anymore

0:49:50.319,0:49:53.760

okay and you you can't really do with

0:49:52.720,0:49:55.920

the what ifs on that

0:49:53.760,0:49:57.599

you might have had the same thought

0:49:55.920,0:49:58.160

process four years later if you hadn't

0:49:57.599,0:50:01.280

had

0:49:58.160,0:50:03.359

the the trauma for four years ago

0:50:01.280,0:50:04.960

you might still you might still be here

0:50:03.359,0:50:06.160

going do you know what i'm ready now i'm

0:50:04.960,0:50:08.640

in a space where i've got

0:50:06.160,0:50:10.160

more to give for more love to give and

0:50:08.640,0:50:11.440

there's still more space in my heart the

0:50:10.160,0:50:13.440

way you were today

0:50:11.440,0:50:14.800

you know what i do think about sometimes

0:50:13.440,0:50:16.800

you know what i do think about sometimes

0:50:14.800,0:50:19.200

about having another one is um

0:50:16.800,0:50:20.800

i think of things i love to travel and i

0:50:19.200,0:50:21.839

think of things in terms of plane

0:50:20.800,0:50:26.000

tickets

0:50:21.839,0:50:28.640

and um i i realize now that

0:50:26.000,0:50:29.599

i'll have to get more than one like

0:50:28.640,0:50:31.440

three-row

0:50:29.599,0:50:33.200

bench you know like we'll have to be

0:50:31.440,0:50:34.880

separate now

0:50:33.200,0:50:36.640

have to send one parent here and one

0:50:34.880,0:50:38.400

parent there and

0:50:36.640,0:50:41.280

yeah yeah we've done that traveling with

0:50:38.400,0:50:44.880

the five of us in this family and um

0:50:41.280,0:50:46.319

yeah that's a pain in the butt yeah

0:50:44.880,0:50:48.240

sorry unless you're international and

0:50:46.319,0:50:50.880

you can get the whole middle row

0:50:48.240,0:50:55.839

well this is true we have done that once

0:50:50.880,0:50:55.839

it's still a pain in the back

0:51:01.359,0:51:04.480

a little girl on the plane who just

0:51:03.040,0:51:06.400

wanted to speak to her mum but my mom

0:51:04.480,0:51:08.720

just had her headphones and watching tv

0:51:06.400,0:51:10.000

so she was speaking to her mom but the

0:51:08.720,0:51:11.920

rest of us were the ones that were

0:51:10.000,0:51:13.760

actually listening

0:51:11.920,0:51:15.520

i was just like will you please just

0:51:13.760,0:51:16.480

answer your daughter she just wants some

0:51:15.520,0:51:20.160

validation

0:51:16.480,0:51:22.000

like you could just hear the whole plane

0:51:20.160,0:51:23.599

just doing this just

0:51:22.000,0:51:26.060

i could picture her right now i better

0:51:23.599,0:51:27.760

be on that flight as well i'm sure

0:51:26.060,0:51:29.200

[Laughter]

0:51:27.760,0:51:31.040

she was just she was watching tonight on

0:51:29.200,0:51:33.119

tv and she's like hey mommy emo

0:51:31.040,0:51:34.640

she was fairy glaswegian which might not

0:51:33.119,0:51:37.440

mean anything to you jessica but

0:51:34.640,0:51:38.240

i'm sure that's pitchers um she had a

0:51:37.440,0:51:40.640

very strong

0:51:38.240,0:51:41.680

thick accent and it every two seconds it

0:51:40.640,0:51:45.040

was just like hey mommy

0:51:41.680,0:51:48.480

hey mommy and we were just like

0:51:45.040,0:51:49.680

please we answered so she can stop

0:51:48.480,0:51:52.240

asking

0:51:49.680,0:51:55.520

um that's hilarious so the plane travel

0:51:52.240,0:51:58.400

doesn't change yes again i'm sorry

0:51:55.520,0:51:58.880

you know that's good to know i guess you

0:51:58.400,0:52:00.800

know

0:51:58.880,0:52:01.920

and you know you never you never judge

0:52:00.800,0:52:07.599

anybody's parenting

0:52:01.920,0:52:07.599

well is it hard not to take that back

0:52:08.720,0:52:12.480

i i no longer like see like screaming

0:52:11.920,0:52:14.559

children

0:52:12.480,0:52:16.720

and target and go like why can't you

0:52:14.559,0:52:19.040

just control your kid because like

0:52:16.720,0:52:19.040

i don't

0:52:21.040,0:52:26.400

i feel for you you know like more

0:52:24.079,0:52:27.520

like i know i've been there i have

0:52:26.400,0:52:29.920

actually like

0:52:27.520,0:52:30.880

said to other mothers but like you got

0:52:29.920,0:52:32.800

this

0:52:30.880,0:52:34.800

and you'd be amazed that like their

0:52:32.800,0:52:36.400

whole demeanor changes because

0:52:34.800,0:52:37.680

when you're a mom and you know when

0:52:36.400,0:52:39.200

you're a parent and you're standing

0:52:37.680,0:52:41.200

there and your kid is like

0:52:39.200,0:52:42.559

misbehaving in public you're just like

0:52:41.200,0:52:44.559

looking around like

0:52:42.559,0:52:47.119

everybody's judging me and i'm drowning

0:52:44.559,0:52:49.839

in an ocean of you know tantrum

0:52:47.119,0:52:50.880

and yeah when somebody just looks at you

0:52:49.839,0:52:54.160

and is like

0:52:50.880,0:52:54.720

i've been there you i i know and you got

0:52:54.160,0:52:57.119

this

0:52:54.720,0:52:58.480

it just changes just scooped up a child

0:52:57.119,0:53:00.559

and walked them outside and just been

0:52:58.480,0:53:00.559

0:53:05.119,0:53:08.480

have you seen have you seen all the

0:53:06.400,0:53:09.839

memes of like why my toddler's crying or

0:53:08.480,0:53:12.400

like throwing a tantrum

0:53:09.839,0:53:14.559

i haven't been sure i need to know oh

0:53:12.400,0:53:15.839

you need to google these it's like um

0:53:14.559,0:53:17.680

someone would like took a picture of

0:53:15.839,0:53:20.079

their kid having a tantrum

0:53:17.680,0:53:21.680

like my my kid's having a tantrum

0:53:20.079,0:53:25.920

because i won't let him swim

0:53:21.680,0:53:25.920

it's six degrees out and he can't swim

0:53:27.040,0:53:30.800

yeah you're a terrible parent for

0:53:28.720,0:53:32.640

keeping that child

0:53:30.800,0:53:34.240

and it's like that pretty much explains

0:53:32.640,0:53:37.040

toddlerhood right there it

0:53:34.240,0:53:38.079

really does yeah yeah we just you know i

0:53:37.040,0:53:40.559

had a magical moment

0:53:38.079,0:53:41.200

just before we came on to this call and

0:53:40.559,0:53:44.319

i shared

0:53:41.200,0:53:47.839

singing in the rain the movie with kids

0:53:44.319,0:53:49.440

now um as most people like yeah an

0:53:47.839,0:53:50.319

eight-year-old down there six-year-old

0:53:49.440,0:53:51.440

really don't

0:53:50.319,0:53:53.040

not gonna want to watch singing in the

0:53:51.440,0:53:53.839

rain but it's one of my favorite movies

0:53:53.040,0:53:57.040

of all time

0:53:53.839,0:53:59.200

i love that movie no we have to do this

0:53:57.040,0:54:00.079

um i had to stop it at times to explain

0:53:59.200,0:54:02.160

what was going on

0:54:00.079,0:54:03.440

but i i feel like i had a magical moment

0:54:02.160,0:54:04.000

with the kids because they're all

0:54:03.440,0:54:07.040

singing

0:54:04.000,0:54:10.960

and singing in the rain and good morning

0:54:07.040,0:54:10.960

we've done it i've done it i went

0:54:12.640,0:54:15.920

was it was it good morning or make them

0:54:14.400,0:54:16.880

laugh because make them laugh is

0:54:15.920,0:54:19.680

probably oh

0:54:16.880,0:54:20.880

well i warned him before we started um i

0:54:19.680,0:54:23.920

kind of was like he's the

0:54:20.880,0:54:25.680

the kind of dashing hero and

0:54:23.920,0:54:27.520

his love interest and the guy on the end

0:54:25.680,0:54:28.400

he's hilarious so you have to keep an

0:54:27.520,0:54:30.480

eye on him

0:54:28.400,0:54:31.760

and the make them laugh scene is

0:54:30.480,0:54:33.520

obviously brilliant and they were like

0:54:31.760,0:54:34.480

why is he being silly daddy because

0:54:33.520,0:54:38.000

obviously

0:54:34.480,0:54:39.520

i'm always like stopping silly

0:54:38.000,0:54:41.760

has he been so silly that is he's

0:54:39.520,0:54:43.359

dancing on the floor um

0:54:41.760,0:54:44.799

and then once he got used to the fact

0:54:43.359,0:54:46.640

that he was okay for it would be silly

0:54:44.799,0:54:50.839

in this movie they were they were just

0:54:46.640,0:54:52.160

laughing so much it was great oh that's

0:54:50.839,0:54:54.160

wonderful

0:54:52.160,0:54:55.520

i i had a magical moment so i thought

0:54:54.160,0:54:56.880

i'd share that with you because

0:54:55.520,0:54:58.720

yeah well we're talking about the

0:54:56.880,0:55:00.799

tantrums i wanted to balance

0:54:58.720,0:55:04.160

something just the scales have tipped

0:55:00.799,0:55:04.160

again yeah we've had them

0:55:05.200,0:55:08.640

and those moments are the moments you

0:55:06.400,0:55:11.200

kind of live for and i think

0:55:08.640,0:55:12.480

um again i keep calling you a superhero

0:55:11.200,0:55:15.440

but you've gone through

0:55:12.480,0:55:16.559

all of that come out the other side and

0:55:15.440,0:55:20.000

possibly stronger

0:55:16.559,0:55:23.200

i don't know um battle scarred

0:55:20.000,0:55:24.799

definitely um but

0:55:23.200,0:55:26.559

ready to take on a new challenge would

0:55:24.799,0:55:29.839

that be fair yeah

0:55:26.559,0:55:31.920

yeah and i think the positive um

0:55:29.839,0:55:33.200

you know now the positive moments

0:55:31.920,0:55:36.160

outweigh the negative

0:55:33.200,0:55:37.760

and it's it's worth it you know yeah it

0:55:36.160,0:55:40.799

would be worth it

0:55:37.760,0:55:41.680

i think i don't know call me in a couple

0:55:40.799,0:55:44.480

of years

0:55:41.680,0:55:45.760

and see you know don't don't don't tell

0:55:44.480,0:55:48.960

us that because we will do it

0:55:45.760,0:55:48.960

we will we'll keep you i mean

0:55:52.400,0:55:55.280

we said this before it's going to happen

0:55:53.920,0:55:56.559

that it's got to it's going to i'm going

0:55:55.280,0:55:57.760

to have to follow where everybody from

0:55:56.559,0:56:00.640

season one because i know

0:55:57.760,0:56:01.040

i know um such an isn't it it's been a

0:56:00.640,0:56:02.799

really

0:56:01.040,0:56:04.079

really good kind of interesting thing i

0:56:02.799,0:56:06.319

don't know if all

0:56:04.079,0:56:08.079

the topics we've got on the list are

0:56:06.319,0:56:10.240

going to be quite as insightful as

0:56:08.079,0:56:11.520

yeah some of these conversations i'm not

0:56:10.240,0:56:13.200

sure but

0:56:11.520,0:56:16.799

well if we have guests that are even

0:56:13.200,0:56:16.799

half as good as jessica's been

0:56:19.119,0:56:22.880

yeah it's been it's been really um kind

0:56:20.960,0:56:24.640

of i want to thank you for being such a

0:56:22.880,0:56:26.079

positive person

0:56:24.640,0:56:27.920

make pretty i think you'll have put

0:56:26.079,0:56:29.200

things in a perspective for more than

0:56:27.920,0:56:31.359

one person 100

0:56:29.200,0:56:32.880

well i'm one and i'm sure there are two

0:56:31.359,0:56:34.640

people there you go

0:56:32.880,0:56:36.400

even if no one else is even less than

0:56:34.640,0:56:38.160

there you go two people you've already

0:56:36.400,0:56:40.000

already done well well i'll just leave

0:56:38.160,0:56:42.880

you with this that um

0:56:40.000,0:56:44.000

infant loss is probably one of the

0:56:42.880,0:56:45.520

hardest things that people

0:56:44.000,0:56:48.079

can go through because you know you

0:56:45.520,0:56:49.440

expect to lose grandparents or parents

0:56:48.079,0:56:50.880

or something but

0:56:49.440,0:56:52.640

you know you never expect to lose your

0:56:50.880,0:56:55.680

kid um but

0:56:52.640,0:56:56.720

if it does happen to somebody like i

0:56:55.680,0:56:58.960

hope you guys you know

0:56:56.720,0:57:00.640

put some resources in there because it's

0:56:58.960,0:57:03.359

a kind of grief that

...more

View all episodes

By Paul Hope & Ryan Rocks

January 12, 2021

Child Loss Story - One Living Twin

58 minutes

Transcript:----more----

0:00:00.000,0:00:05.440

she was a twin her sister passed away

0:00:03.360,0:00:06.640

in the hospital from an infection it's

0:00:05.440,0:00:08.639

one of those things where we're actually

0:00:06.640,0:00:09.440

engaged in litigation with the hospital

0:00:08.639,0:00:11.920

because

0:00:09.440,0:00:13.280

it was pretty blatant negligence like i

0:00:11.920,0:00:16.280

really do remember

0:00:13.280,0:00:18.600

just trying to exist and survive

0:00:16.280,0:00:19.700

[Music]

0:00:18.600,0:00:24.480

[Applause]

0:00:19.700,0:00:27.519

[Music]

0:00:24.480,0:00:28.240

hello welcome to life it is just me the

0:00:27.519,0:00:29.599

podcast

0:00:28.240,0:00:31.679

where we talk about the things that

0:00:29.599,0:00:34.399

we're all going through we'll

0:00:31.679,0:00:36.079

have to deal with in life my name's paul

0:00:34.399,0:00:39.760

i'm joined today by ryan and

0:00:36.079,0:00:41.200

jessica hi guys hi how are you doing

0:00:39.760,0:00:43.520

really really good ryan how are you i'm

0:00:41.200,0:00:46.480

all right what about you paul

0:00:43.520,0:00:46.480

nobody ever asks you

0:00:46.879,0:00:50.800

i'm good i know well that's what happens

0:00:49.200,0:00:54.559

and you always do the intro so

0:00:50.800,0:00:57.440

what's to be expected and that's right

0:00:54.559,0:00:58.000

we are here to talk about having kids

0:00:57.440,0:01:00.640

having

0:00:58.000,0:01:02.800

children this is our focus for our our

0:01:00.640,0:01:05.040

season just now our first season yes

0:01:02.800,0:01:05.840

we don't offer any judgment we're just

0:01:05.040,0:01:07.520

here to

0:01:05.840,0:01:09.119

bring you some ideas and some stories

0:01:07.520,0:01:11.119

and some experiences from people

0:01:09.119,0:01:12.320

all around the world jessica that is why

0:01:11.119,0:01:14.159

you are here tell us a bit about

0:01:12.320,0:01:17.360

yourself please

0:01:14.159,0:01:19.360

um i'm an american from the middle of

0:01:17.360,0:01:21.600

america and like i said earlier let me

0:01:19.360,0:01:24.640

just apologize on behalf of

0:01:21.600,0:01:27.680

at least half of my country um

0:01:24.640,0:01:28.960

i'm i've been married for nine years

0:01:27.680,0:01:32.000

today actually it's

0:01:28.960,0:01:32.720

awesome oh congratulations yeah thank

0:01:32.000,0:01:34.960

you

0:01:32.720,0:01:37.680

um all i want well thank you for joining

0:01:34.960,0:01:40.640

us power at my house

0:01:37.680,0:01:42.240

it's a short list i'm glad you mentioned

0:01:40.640,0:01:43.439

the presidency because

0:01:42.240,0:01:44.640

i just i was going to mention it you

0:01:43.439,0:01:45.360

know in case someone's listening to this

0:01:44.640,0:01:47.520

and i don't know

0:01:45.360,0:01:48.479

2027 or something right now literally we

0:01:47.520,0:01:50.799

are awaiting

0:01:48.479,0:01:55.840

the results of some key states for the

0:01:50.799,0:01:55.840

2020 presidential election

0:02:00.240,0:02:05.840

yeah also you 100

0:02:03.759,0:02:07.200

you mentioned the electricity in your

0:02:05.840,0:02:10.000

house

0:02:07.200,0:02:10.640

yes we just had a really terrible ice

0:02:10.000,0:02:13.280

storm

0:02:10.640,0:02:14.959

so um everything was frozen and the

0:02:13.280,0:02:16.959

trees split and

0:02:14.959,0:02:18.080

knocked down a lot of lines and half the

0:02:16.959,0:02:21.120

city

0:02:18.080,0:02:23.440

um this was last tuesday i haven't had

0:02:21.120,0:02:24.959

power at my house since last tuesday so

0:02:23.440,0:02:27.440

i have been

0:02:24.959,0:02:29.120

living in a one-bedroom condo that some

0:02:27.440,0:02:30.800

friends of ours owns we're very very

0:02:29.120,0:02:32.000

fortunate on our end

0:02:30.800,0:02:33.920

but i've also means i've been

0:02:32.000,0:02:38.640

co-sleeping with a four-year-old

0:02:33.920,0:02:42.160

and do not recommend zero out of ten

0:02:38.640,0:02:44.480

i do not recommend so

0:02:42.160,0:02:46.720

i've been i've been kicked i have been

0:02:44.480,0:02:48.720

slapped i've been pushed

0:02:46.720,0:02:51.280

um i don't know how people i don't know

0:02:48.720,0:02:54.239

how people do that so

0:02:51.280,0:02:55.920

yes that's where that's where i'm at i

0:02:54.239,0:02:57.120

guess that sets the scene quite nicely

0:02:55.920,0:02:58.560

in there

0:02:57.120,0:03:00.720

you've told us about who you are and

0:02:58.560,0:03:04.159

certainly you you have a kid

0:03:00.720,0:03:06.159

you've got a four-year-old um and

0:03:04.159,0:03:07.360

tell us then about about your life

0:03:06.159,0:03:10.480

you're 34 just now

0:03:07.360,0:03:14.159

and you're how old is your is your child

0:03:10.480,0:03:17.360

she's four she's four now um

0:03:14.159,0:03:18.800

so i had her in 2016 when the world was

0:03:17.360,0:03:21.280

still good

0:03:18.800,0:03:22.720

um that's a reference to coronavirus i

0:03:21.280,0:03:23.680

believe or could be the election i don't

0:03:22.720,0:03:25.519

know

0:03:23.680,0:03:27.360

i don't know it's an election it's an

0:03:25.519,0:03:30.400

election dig um

0:03:27.360,0:03:33.680

yeah when i still had hope uh

0:03:30.400,0:03:37.040

so um she was

0:03:33.680,0:03:40.560

she um she's wonderful um

0:03:37.040,0:03:44.159

most days most of the time

0:03:40.560,0:03:47.360

i would keep her um

0:03:44.159,0:03:49.120

uh no it's great um she was

0:03:47.360,0:03:51.519

you know as we've talked about you know

0:03:49.120,0:03:54.799

mentioned before she was a twin

0:03:51.519,0:03:57.920

um her sister passed away

0:03:54.799,0:04:02.239

in the hospital from an infection um

0:03:57.920,0:04:05.040

the day after she was born so um

0:04:02.239,0:04:06.239

and actually that is you know we're it's

0:04:05.040,0:04:08.239

one of those things where we're actually

0:04:06.239,0:04:09.200

engaged in litigation with the hospital

0:04:08.239,0:04:13.200

because

0:04:09.200,0:04:14.640

it it was negligence i mean it was

0:04:13.200,0:04:18.160

pretty blatant

0:04:14.640,0:04:20.479

um negligence so um

0:04:18.160,0:04:21.359

you know so parenthood for me has been a

0:04:20.479,0:04:24.400

mixed bag

0:04:21.359,0:04:25.759

really you know we thought we were uh

0:04:24.400,0:04:29.120

have one in let's see

0:04:25.759,0:04:31.759

and then it was surprised too

0:04:29.120,0:04:32.560

and then we were like okay we're done

0:04:31.759,0:04:35.440

and then it was

0:04:32.560,0:04:37.040

grief and joy and you know the tough

0:04:35.440,0:04:39.120

times that you go through

0:04:37.040,0:04:41.040

you know as a new parent just learning

0:04:39.120,0:04:43.280

how to

0:04:41.040,0:04:46.720

navigate that life because it's very

0:04:43.280,0:04:46.720

different from your life before

0:04:46.960,0:04:51.040

that's something that's come across and

0:04:49.440,0:04:52.479

a lot of the conversations that that

0:04:51.040,0:04:55.040

ryan i've had to ryan

0:04:52.479,0:04:56.720

you've spoken on previous episodes about

0:04:55.040,0:04:58.000

your own life situation and having two

0:04:56.720,0:05:00.560

kids of your own and

0:04:58.000,0:05:01.759

at my current where i am just now 20

0:05:00.560,0:05:04.479

almost 29

0:05:01.759,0:05:05.919

um don't have kids yet sort of in that

0:05:04.479,0:05:08.160

quandary well i won't

0:05:05.919,0:05:10.000

i sort of thing um which is why it's

0:05:08.160,0:05:12.479

been so immensely helpful to to

0:05:10.000,0:05:14.320

get some of these some of these ideas we

0:05:12.479,0:05:15.199

we did say before that we would delve

0:05:14.320,0:05:18.639

into some

0:05:15.199,0:05:19.280

some possibly um uncomfortable places

0:05:18.639,0:05:21.919

possibly

0:05:19.280,0:05:23.440

for you listening possibly as well and

0:05:21.919,0:05:26.160

jessica i thought we could maybe start

0:05:23.440,0:05:28.400

by talking as much as as much as you

0:05:26.160,0:05:31.360

you're able and you want to about

0:05:28.400,0:05:31.919

what it's like what it was like if any

0:05:31.360,0:05:34.560

you had

0:05:31.919,0:05:36.080

we're going to have twins then having

0:05:34.560,0:05:39.360

birth giving birth to twins and

0:05:36.080,0:05:43.360

and then eventually losing one

0:05:39.360,0:05:46.479

um yeah so um

0:05:43.360,0:05:48.960

i uh

0:05:46.479,0:05:50.400

it happened really quickly like i was so

0:05:48.960,0:05:52.960

i'm an attorney and i was

0:05:50.400,0:05:54.720

um we my husband and i kind of knew that

0:05:52.960,0:05:57.039

we wanted to have kids i think

0:05:54.720,0:05:59.440

but i also like you know wanted that

0:05:57.039,0:06:01.199

license to practice law like in my hand

0:05:59.440,0:06:03.039

i didn't want to be

0:06:01.199,0:06:04.960

one of these you know i didn't want to

0:06:03.039,0:06:08.000

be studying for a bar exam

0:06:04.960,0:06:10.319

you know when i was pregnant and so

0:06:08.000,0:06:11.919

but after after that you know i got i

0:06:10.319,0:06:14.960

got pregnant really quickly and

0:06:11.919,0:06:17.520

um i was very surprising and

0:06:14.960,0:06:18.240

i just remember i had i had some issues

0:06:17.520,0:06:21.199

and

0:06:18.240,0:06:23.039

um my doctor had me go in for a very

0:06:21.199,0:06:24.479

early ultrasound

0:06:23.039,0:06:26.960

which is funny because it was on our

0:06:24.479,0:06:29.360

anniversary it was on november 6th

0:06:26.960,0:06:30.400

and uh i remember thinking like all

0:06:29.360,0:06:30.880

right we're going to go out for dinner

0:06:30.400,0:06:32.840

later

0:06:30.880,0:06:34.160

and i'm either going to be really

0:06:32.840,0:06:35.759

excited

0:06:34.160,0:06:37.680

um or i'm gonna be sad and i'm gonna

0:06:35.759,0:06:39.360

drink but either way there's something

0:06:37.680,0:06:42.080

at the end of the tunnel

0:06:39.360,0:06:42.560

and uh so we're sitting in the room and

0:06:42.080,0:06:45.039

the

0:06:42.560,0:06:47.039

you know the girl goes um listen if

0:06:45.039,0:06:49.360

there's something to see i'll show you

0:06:47.039,0:06:50.400

okay and and so she's looking around

0:06:49.360,0:06:52.639

she's asking us

0:06:50.400,0:06:54.319

how long have you been married you know

0:06:52.639,0:06:56.319

is this your first pregnancy

0:06:54.319,0:06:57.840

and all of a sudden she just stops and

0:06:56.319,0:06:59.039

she goes i'll be right back and she

0:06:57.840,0:07:02.000

leaves the room

0:06:59.039,0:07:02.960

and i looked at my husband like this is

0:07:02.000,0:07:05.759

this is bad

0:07:02.960,0:07:07.840

you know there's not i'm i'm just like

0:07:05.759,0:07:09.360

prepping myself and she comes back in

0:07:07.840,0:07:10.240

she turns the screen and she goes okay

0:07:09.360,0:07:12.479

0:07:10.240,0:07:14.400

um we found a heartbeat we actually

0:07:12.479,0:07:16.560

found two

0:07:14.400,0:07:17.840

and i'm thinking mine and the babies

0:07:16.560,0:07:20.319

right like that's

0:07:17.840,0:07:21.280

that equals two she turns the screen and

0:07:20.319,0:07:24.720

she goes so here's

0:07:21.280,0:07:27.120

baby a and here's baby b

0:07:24.720,0:07:28.639

and i looked at my husband and then i

0:07:27.120,0:07:30.000

looked at the bathroom door

0:07:28.639,0:07:33.280

thinking somebody was going to pop out

0:07:30.000,0:07:33.280

and just yell you've been pumped

0:07:34.560,0:07:39.840

you know i was i the only thing i could

0:07:36.880,0:07:43.199

say for like the next 10 to 15 minutes

0:07:39.840,0:07:44.560

was what was happening literally those

0:07:43.199,0:07:47.919

are the only

0:07:44.560,0:07:49.120

words that could form in my mouth and

0:07:47.919,0:07:50.800

um i don't know if you're going to have

0:07:49.120,0:07:52.020

to believe that or whatever but it is

0:07:50.800,0:07:53.680

just neither do we

0:07:52.020,0:07:56.840

[Laughter]

0:07:53.680,0:07:57.900

i assume what's happening like how not

0:07:56.840,0:08:00.940

twice

0:07:57.900,0:08:00.940

[Music]

0:08:02.960,0:08:06.240

i'm also loving the fact that ryan's on

0:08:04.479,0:08:07.759

an ever slight delay

0:08:06.240,0:08:09.280

so we could do this for a few times it

0:08:07.759,0:08:10.479

would take him just a few seconds to

0:08:09.280,0:08:14.240

catch up

0:08:10.479,0:08:17.520

okay okay um so yeah so

0:08:14.240,0:08:20.879

it was just it was it was crazy

0:08:17.520,0:08:24.080

um uh it was just crazy

0:08:20.879,0:08:26.160

so um yeah and it's you know it's

0:08:24.080,0:08:28.960

nerve-wracking because

0:08:26.160,0:08:29.280

um you know i don't know if i don't know

0:08:28.960,0:08:31.360

0:08:29.280,0:08:33.279

you know ryan is you have kids i don't

0:08:31.360,0:08:34.959

know if you your wife had any experience

0:08:33.279,0:08:35.919

with this but you know loss is very

0:08:34.959,0:08:39.279

common

0:08:35.919,0:08:43.360

um for women it's not you know it's

0:08:39.279,0:08:45.519

it's not rare it happens a lot

0:08:43.360,0:08:47.360

and so i think you know especially in

0:08:45.519,0:08:48.480

like multiple pregnancies and i think i

0:08:47.360,0:08:51.519

was always expecting

0:08:48.480,0:08:53.120

something to go wrong you know so

0:08:51.519,0:08:55.040

every time i went to the doctor and

0:08:53.120,0:08:56.959

everything was fine it just became more

0:08:55.040,0:08:58.000

and more real of like this is gonna be

0:08:56.959,0:09:01.760

your life

0:08:58.000,0:09:02.880

and um you know so it's exciting i

0:09:01.760,0:09:06.480

mostly had a pretty

0:09:02.880,0:09:08.160

you know un um uneventful pregnancy i

0:09:06.480,0:09:11.519

was very lucky

0:09:08.160,0:09:14.959

um so up until the end

0:09:11.519,0:09:18.880

you know um

0:09:14.959,0:09:20.240

so i um i went to the hospital as

0:09:18.880,0:09:23.680

preeclamptic

0:09:20.240,0:09:25.040

so um i my blood my blood pressure when

0:09:23.680,0:09:28.160

i went to the hospital was

0:09:25.040,0:09:31.040

i think 200 over 110.

0:09:28.160,0:09:31.680

i basically should have like stroked out

0:09:31.040,0:09:34.959

and

0:09:31.680,0:09:36.560

died um so

0:09:34.959,0:09:38.240

i don't know we don't really need to go

0:09:36.560,0:09:39.519

into like you know the details of like

0:09:38.240,0:09:41.760

giving birth but

0:09:39.519,0:09:44.480

they got there and no please dude head

0:09:41.760,0:09:46.630

to somewhere ended up having a c-section

0:09:44.480,0:09:51.450

and the girls

0:09:46.630,0:09:51.450

[Laughter]

0:09:59.839,0:10:08.640

um so uh fine

0:10:04.880,0:10:12.079

um so my my girls went to the nicu

0:10:08.640,0:10:14.880

um i was recovering so my husband who is

0:10:12.079,0:10:16.959

right you want to say hi chris hi hi

0:10:14.880,0:10:20.880

chris hi chris

0:10:16.959,0:10:22.959

they say hi um he went up to the nicu

0:10:20.880,0:10:25.200

with them and i stayed down in the um

0:10:22.959,0:10:27.040

in the hospital room and what's the next

0:10:25.200,0:10:30.720

view sorry i'm not familiar with that

0:10:27.040,0:10:34.399

the neonatal intensive care unit okay

0:10:30.720,0:10:38.399

thank you so um yep so the the nicu and

0:10:34.399,0:10:42.240

um they just immediately started to have

0:10:38.399,0:10:43.440

you know have to put um lena that was my

0:10:42.240,0:10:45.600

daughter who passed away

0:10:43.440,0:10:47.760

nora is my living daughter they had to

0:10:45.600,0:10:49.440

put lena on a cpap and things just kind

0:10:47.760,0:10:52.959

of started going downhill

0:10:49.440,0:10:55.760

and we only found out later that they

0:10:52.959,0:10:58.399

like suspected that she had an infection

0:10:55.760,0:11:02.000

but they didn't give her antibiotics

0:10:58.399,0:11:05.360

for 14 hours after

0:11:02.000,0:11:08.720

they suspected that so

0:11:05.360,0:11:09.760

we um yeah so that look you know that

0:11:08.720,0:11:13.440

was tough it was

0:11:09.760,0:11:14.480

um it's it's you don't expect that to

0:11:13.440,0:11:17.279

happen to you

0:11:14.480,0:11:17.760

because you go to hospitals where you

0:11:17.279,0:11:21.120

trust

0:11:17.760,0:11:21.920

doctors and you think people stay on top

0:11:21.120,0:11:26.320

of things

0:11:21.920,0:11:28.800

and as a new mother

0:11:26.320,0:11:30.880

who's never been in that position you

0:11:28.800,0:11:33.040

know new parents my husband too we

0:11:30.880,0:11:35.130

didn't know the questions to ask

0:11:33.040,0:11:36.560

you know we didn't know um

0:11:35.130,0:11:37.839

[Music]

0:11:36.560,0:11:41.920

we didn't know what was going on we

0:11:37.839,0:11:43.519

didn't understand um a lot of things so

0:11:41.920,0:11:46.720

0:11:43.519,0:11:49.680

so yeah that was uh

0:11:46.720,0:11:51.519

we only got to you know hold her once i

0:11:49.680,0:11:55.279

held her as she passed

0:11:51.519,0:11:58.320

and my husband took her

0:11:55.279,0:12:00.880

downstairs um

0:11:58.320,0:12:02.639

and we were quiet we did request an

0:12:00.880,0:12:05.440

autopsy and then

0:12:02.639,0:12:06.959

she was buried two days later and i was

0:12:05.440,0:12:10.639

still in the hospital i didn't

0:12:06.959,0:12:12.320

um we didn't go to her funeral it was

0:12:10.639,0:12:13.760

frankly it was just too it would have

0:12:12.320,0:12:18.720

been too much

0:12:13.760,0:12:20.880

so um so yeah that's

0:12:18.720,0:12:21.920

it's it's a very intense you know

0:12:20.880,0:12:25.040

intense moment

0:12:21.920,0:12:28.000

and it's really um

0:12:25.040,0:12:29.440

you join you know two clubs that you

0:12:28.000,0:12:31.920

never expected to join

0:12:29.440,0:12:33.600

you know and it's it's weird like i

0:12:31.920,0:12:37.680

thought i was gonna be a twin mom

0:12:33.600,0:12:41.040

and then i was you know a grieving mom

0:12:37.680,0:12:43.600

so uh you know

0:12:41.040,0:12:45.680

it was it was i would i really wouldn't

0:12:43.600,0:12:48.800

wish it on anybody

0:12:45.680,0:12:49.680

it was it was bad yeah i mean i've

0:12:48.800,0:12:51.839

spoken to you

0:12:49.680,0:12:53.120

thank you so much for appreciating so

0:12:51.839,0:12:57.040

much it's such a

0:12:53.120,0:13:00.320

powerful story and

0:12:57.040,0:13:03.680

for us my our pregnancy was nora was in

0:13:00.320,0:13:03.680

the nicu for three weeks

0:13:04.240,0:13:08.800

oh yeah sorry i'm on the delay anna you

0:13:07.360,0:13:11.200

could i'm just interrupting everybody

0:13:08.800,0:13:12.560

left right and center

0:13:11.200,0:13:14.880

yeah you've got quite you've got quite a

0:13:12.560,0:13:17.200

big delay no no ryan go go ahead

0:13:14.880,0:13:18.639

afterwards no i was just gonna say just

0:13:17.200,0:13:22.000

offer my experience

0:13:18.639,0:13:23.200

when we were having a baby um the exact

0:13:22.000,0:13:26.160

same thing about

0:13:23.200,0:13:27.920

trusting the hospital we didn't know

0:13:26.160,0:13:29.519

what to expect and we just thought

0:13:27.920,0:13:30.959

everything was going properly and

0:13:29.519,0:13:33.120

swimmingly and

0:13:30.959,0:13:34.000

my son and wife both got an infection

0:13:33.120,0:13:36.079

during the pregnancy

0:13:34.000,0:13:37.440

but because she'd been in labor for 72

0:13:36.079,0:13:39.839

hours

0:13:37.440,0:13:42.240

um and they hadn't tried to progress it

0:13:39.839,0:13:43.360

if they just um administered oxytocin if

0:13:42.240,0:13:46.480

we'd known at the time

0:13:43.360,0:13:48.160

that if we just requested that they give

0:13:46.480,0:13:50.560

her oxytocin to move her on

0:13:48.160,0:13:52.959

she would have been fine but because

0:13:50.560,0:13:55.040

they didn't bother they just

0:13:52.959,0:13:56.720

they prolonged the whole thing and they

0:13:55.040,0:13:59.839

both ended up obviously

0:13:56.720,0:14:01.120

um with an infection my wife almost bled

0:13:59.839,0:14:02.480

out i thought we were gonna lose her at

0:14:01.120,0:14:05.760

one point

0:14:02.480,0:14:07.600

and and you just assume that it's just

0:14:05.760,0:14:09.279

complications of pregnancy but as

0:14:07.600,0:14:11.360

for looking back and having had a second

0:14:09.279,0:14:13.680

child it was more than likely

0:14:11.360,0:14:14.839

negligence and just we didn't know any

0:14:13.680,0:14:17.839

better

0:14:14.839,0:14:17.839

0:14:21.839,0:14:26.880

it's so so interesting for me having not

0:14:24.720,0:14:30.800

experienced these things

0:14:26.880,0:14:33.600

yet possibly ever i don't know to

0:14:30.800,0:14:35.360

to hear similar stories in some ways and

0:14:33.600,0:14:39.120

and i wanted to ask you jessica having

0:14:35.360,0:14:39.120

spoken what you've just spoken about

0:14:39.360,0:14:43.760

what when you when you think back to

0:14:41.360,0:14:44.880

that time

0:14:43.760,0:14:47.920

just gone through what you've gone

0:14:44.880,0:14:49.519

through you've given birth to

0:14:47.920,0:14:51.760

nora i think you said you said her name

0:14:49.519,0:14:54.959

was is that her name is that right

0:14:51.760,0:14:57.920

and you've you've lost lena

0:14:54.959,0:15:00.800

how does that feel to have those two

0:14:57.920,0:15:00.800

polar opposites

0:15:00.880,0:15:05.920

um it

0:15:06.480,0:15:14.320

it was weird um you know

0:15:10.079,0:15:17.440

we um nora stayed in the nicu

0:15:14.320,0:15:19.279

for three weeks almost three weeks after

0:15:17.440,0:15:23.120

that

0:15:19.279,0:15:25.360

and we would we would go up and visit

0:15:23.120,0:15:25.360

her

0:15:25.600,0:15:29.600

but they and they moved her room but it

0:15:28.000,0:15:31.440

was right next door to the room that

0:15:29.600,0:15:34.959

lena died in

0:15:31.440,0:15:38.560

um and like you have these moments

0:15:34.959,0:15:40.399

of just sheer joy because you've still

0:15:38.560,0:15:43.120

made this person

0:15:40.399,0:15:43.839

and you still look at them and see

0:15:43.120,0:15:48.320

yourself

0:15:43.839,0:15:48.320

and you see your spouse and you know

0:15:48.399,0:15:53.360

someone once explained to me that like

0:15:50.399,0:15:55.199

having children was like

0:15:53.360,0:15:58.000

having another heart that is just

0:15:55.199,0:16:00.399

walking around outside of you

0:15:58.000,0:16:01.120

and that really is you know what it is

0:16:00.399,0:16:04.000

and so

0:16:01.120,0:16:07.600

that love is just so unconditional and

0:16:04.000,0:16:11.600

so strong but then there would be these

0:16:07.600,0:16:14.639

moments of just intense waves of grief

0:16:11.600,0:16:14.639

that um

0:16:14.720,0:16:18.079

you know like it was just it was just

0:16:16.079,0:16:19.440

really hard i'm there

0:16:18.079,0:16:22.079

nora shared a room with somebody in the

0:16:19.440,0:16:25.920

nicu and that baby's mother was there

0:16:22.079,0:16:28.000

probably eight hours a day and i was

0:16:25.920,0:16:29.440

just remembering to breathe and get out

0:16:28.000,0:16:31.839

of bed and

0:16:29.440,0:16:33.360

get dressed and go up there and if i

0:16:31.839,0:16:35.920

made it an hour or two

0:16:33.360,0:16:37.759

hours you know i had to go home and it

0:16:35.920,0:16:40.560

was just i wasn't

0:16:37.759,0:16:42.160

i didn't feel like a good parent but i

0:16:40.560,0:16:44.079

mean it was just

0:16:42.160,0:16:46.000

it was but that time also wasn't a blur

0:16:44.079,0:16:50.399

like i really do remember

0:16:46.000,0:16:52.800

um just trying to exist and survive

0:16:50.399,0:16:54.240

and it was very conflicting very very

0:16:52.800,0:16:56.560

conflicting

0:16:54.240,0:16:57.440

it's interesting that you mentioned

0:16:56.560,0:16:59.600

feeling that

0:16:57.440,0:17:03.040

as you put it to existence of fat as and

0:16:59.600,0:17:06.079

survive at the same time while

0:17:03.040,0:17:08.480

looking after the newborn child your

0:17:06.079,0:17:11.520

energy must have been

0:17:08.480,0:17:14.559

everywhere at once yeah it's

0:17:11.520,0:17:15.760

um you know as as ryan knows like

0:17:14.559,0:17:19.120

newborns are not

0:17:15.760,0:17:22.000

easy um but you noticed

0:17:19.120,0:17:23.600

after yeah after mentally preparing

0:17:22.000,0:17:26.640

ourselves for two

0:17:23.600,0:17:29.760

um it didn't feel

0:17:26.640,0:17:31.360

so difficult um you know we

0:17:29.760,0:17:32.799

instead of just one of us getting up in

0:17:31.360,0:17:34.080

the middle of the night we both got up

0:17:32.799,0:17:38.080

every single time

0:17:34.080,0:17:41.919

and we were each other's support um

0:17:38.080,0:17:43.200

you know and it was just it was

0:17:41.919,0:17:44.799

i would say it was like it was just a

0:17:43.200,0:17:46.320

quiet time you know there was a lot of

0:17:44.799,0:17:48.320

reflection and there was a lot of

0:17:46.320,0:17:51.520

thinking about what we had been through

0:17:48.320,0:17:54.880

and um you know trying to

0:17:51.520,0:17:57.280

trying to be good parents to um

0:17:54.880,0:17:58.400

to a baby that really that needed us and

0:17:57.280,0:18:01.679

depended on us

0:17:58.400,0:18:04.640

and you know um my

0:18:01.679,0:18:06.799

um someone once said to me like i i

0:18:04.640,0:18:08.960

admire your strength and like

0:18:06.799,0:18:10.320

and i just like you know my mom my mom

0:18:08.960,0:18:12.080

said to me when she was like you know

0:18:10.320,0:18:13.120

i'm just so amazed that you didn't give

0:18:12.080,0:18:16.000

up and it was like

0:18:13.120,0:18:16.640

what choice did i have you know like

0:18:16.000,0:18:18.799

it's not a

0:18:16.640,0:18:20.160

it's not a choice like who what was i

0:18:18.799,0:18:21.919

gonna do just

0:18:20.160,0:18:24.240

drop her off at my mom's house and my

0:18:21.919,0:18:26.840

mom was like yeah you could have

0:18:24.240,0:18:29.840

you know other people out there would

0:18:26.840,0:18:29.840

have

0:18:40.880,0:18:45.200

um so yeah it's hard to reconcile how

0:18:44.240,0:18:48.559

you dealt with that

0:18:45.200,0:18:48.559

you're not a superhero really

0:18:50.160,0:18:53.440

yeah hundred percent was just thinking

0:18:52.000,0:18:56.799

that i really was

0:18:53.440,0:18:57.200

um thank you after what what you've just

0:18:56.799,0:19:01.120

said

0:18:57.200,0:19:01.760

um i i don't mean to come across as in

0:19:01.120,0:19:04.880

any way

0:19:01.760,0:19:07.280

insensitive but it's something that for

0:19:04.880,0:19:07.280

me is

0:19:07.520,0:19:10.960

has crossed my mind and i thought i

0:19:08.720,0:19:12.240

would ask it so i wonder if

0:19:10.960,0:19:15.039

having gone through what you've gone

0:19:12.240,0:19:16.559

through does does nora does your

0:19:15.039,0:19:18.559

your living child if that's the right

0:19:16.559,0:19:20.559

way of putting it never

0:19:18.559,0:19:21.679

set servers as a constant reminder of

0:19:20.559,0:19:23.360

what you've been through or is that

0:19:21.679,0:19:26.080

something that you're able to

0:19:23.360,0:19:27.760

not move on from but sort of separate i

0:19:26.080,0:19:30.559

wonder

0:19:27.760,0:19:31.039

um so it's a very good question actually

0:19:30.559,0:19:34.160

and

0:19:31.039,0:19:37.360

um one of the

0:19:34.160,0:19:41.600

so oddly enough my brother

0:19:37.360,0:19:43.600

um had a loss his wife went into early

0:19:41.600,0:19:47.120

labor and he lost a daughter

0:19:43.600,0:19:50.480

26 weeks um

0:19:47.120,0:19:52.559

which is you know i um he's he's

0:19:50.480,0:19:54.000

also very religious so like he dealt

0:19:52.559,0:19:57.039

with his

0:19:54.000,0:19:59.840

grief in a much different way than i did

0:19:57.039,0:20:02.240

um but you know when the the couple

0:19:59.840,0:20:05.520

conversations that we had about it

0:20:02.240,0:20:07.760

you know he said um you know he said

0:20:05.520,0:20:09.840

like you you have a constant reminder

0:20:07.760,0:20:11.280

and you will always have a constant

0:20:09.840,0:20:15.120

reminder

0:20:11.280,0:20:17.520

um and it's it to some extent it is true

0:20:15.120,0:20:18.960

i mean birth things are hard milestones

0:20:17.520,0:20:23.120

were hard

0:20:18.960,0:20:24.960

you know um for a long time when i would

0:20:23.120,0:20:28.080

get nora dressed to leave the house

0:20:24.960,0:20:31.520

and put her in a carrier um

0:20:28.080,0:20:34.000

i could think of nothing but

0:20:31.520,0:20:34.559

how i would have juggled two carriers

0:20:34.000,0:20:37.919

you know

0:20:34.559,0:20:40.960

or um when i drew a bath it would be

0:20:37.919,0:20:43.440

um i would see an empty spot in the tub

0:20:40.960,0:20:45.760

you know like there's a there's always

0:20:43.440,0:20:49.520

an empty chair at my table

0:20:45.760,0:20:51.360

um but nora brings me a lot of joy

0:20:49.520,0:20:53.520

you know she's a wonderful wonderful

0:20:51.360,0:20:54.720

child and i'm like really proud to be

0:20:53.520,0:20:57.039

her mom

0:20:54.720,0:20:57.760

so it's it's just you know it's

0:20:57.039,0:20:59.679

bittersweet

0:20:57.760,0:21:02.559

everything the obvious one for me to ask

0:20:59.679,0:21:04.720

you about was um birthdays um

0:21:02.559,0:21:06.960

just the thought of that constant

0:21:04.720,0:21:08.400

reminder on a birthday that is it's the

0:21:06.960,0:21:10.640

same day

0:21:08.400,0:21:12.080

of your loss that's the same that you're

0:21:10.640,0:21:15.679

celebrating

0:21:12.080,0:21:16.240

um and i'm not sure i would be able to

0:21:15.679,0:21:18.559

cope

0:21:16.240,0:21:20.320

um if i'm honest and i think that you're

0:21:18.559,0:21:22.000

a very strong person for

0:21:20.320,0:21:25.600

for the mindset that you're putting up

0:21:22.000,0:21:25.600

across yeah 100

0:21:26.320,0:21:31.440

well i will say that um the girls were

0:21:29.919,0:21:35.440

born on may 10th

0:21:31.440,0:21:39.039

and lena actually passed on the 11th um

0:21:35.440,0:21:41.360

so i and i one of my you know

0:21:39.039,0:21:42.559

i just thought thank god it's it's not

0:21:41.360,0:21:45.760

the same day

0:21:42.559,0:21:47.520

because you know but um we've we've kind

0:21:45.760,0:21:50.960

of decided that may 10th

0:21:47.520,0:21:54.240

is nora's day and on

0:21:50.960,0:21:56.080

you know we um we don't

0:21:54.240,0:21:58.000

it's almost too depressing to go to the

0:21:56.080,0:22:00.880

cemetery on the 10th so we always

0:21:58.000,0:22:02.159

go on the 11th and we call it lena day

0:22:00.880,0:22:07.200

and

0:22:02.159,0:22:07.200

we try to do something that

0:22:07.360,0:22:12.240

you know that we usually take the day

0:22:10.000,0:22:16.000

off and try and find an activity that's

0:22:12.240,0:22:19.039

you know comforting or reflecting or

0:22:16.000,0:22:20.880

you know something like that so it's um

0:22:19.039,0:22:22.880

you know i know a lot of people i know

0:22:20.880,0:22:25.600

some people who have had losses too

0:22:22.880,0:22:27.120

that you know they always have a cake at

0:22:25.600,0:22:27.600

the at the birthday party actually no

0:22:27.120,0:22:30.159

one can

0:22:27.600,0:22:30.960

we know one couple who um that we met

0:22:30.159,0:22:34.000

through a

0:22:30.960,0:22:36.960

lost support group who also had a twin

0:22:34.000,0:22:39.039

um pass in a much different way you know

0:22:36.960,0:22:41.200

and they would do stuff like

0:22:39.039,0:22:43.440

um you know have have cakes from at the

0:22:41.200,0:22:47.760

party and do things like that and i just

0:22:43.440,0:22:50.400

um nora knows about her sister she knows

0:22:47.760,0:22:52.159

she's missing her sister she knows that

0:22:50.400,0:22:53.760

we miss her sister

0:22:52.159,0:22:57.120

and i think that that's enough to put on

0:22:53.760,0:22:57.120

a four-year-old so

0:22:57.360,0:23:01.120

i've kind of let her have you know her

0:22:59.840,0:23:05.120

space and her days

0:23:01.120,0:23:07.360

her day that's a very an interesting

0:23:05.120,0:23:09.280

and interesting way of of looking at it

0:23:07.360,0:23:12.400

to almost separate them into

0:23:09.280,0:23:13.280

two days it seems almost seems

0:23:12.400,0:23:16.880

comforting

0:23:13.280,0:23:18.480

for someone who's just really getting to

0:23:16.880,0:23:24.240

know you and your story that

0:23:18.480,0:23:24.240

almost makes me feel a bit warmer inside

0:23:24.640,0:23:29.760

yeah i mean i don't i don't want to like

0:23:28.000,0:23:31.679

nora's she's always going to kind of

0:23:29.760,0:23:32.720

have that hanging over her and it's not

0:23:31.679,0:23:34.720

like i'm not

0:23:32.720,0:23:36.799

subconsciously thinking about both of my

0:23:34.720,0:23:39.120

girls on their birthday before

0:23:36.799,0:23:40.320

i'm not you know wishing lena happy

0:23:39.120,0:23:43.520

birthday in my head

0:23:40.320,0:23:46.640

or um you know but

0:23:43.520,0:23:49.679

outwardly like

0:23:46.640,0:23:50.000

you know i need to i mean there's not a

0:23:49.679,0:23:52.640

right

0:23:50.000,0:23:54.000

answer you know there's just there's not

0:23:52.640,0:23:55.440

there's not a right thing to do and

0:23:54.000,0:23:58.080

we've just done the best we can

0:23:55.440,0:24:00.000

it sounds like of course and i was i was

0:23:58.080,0:24:02.320

going to save this for late

0:24:00.000,0:24:03.600

it does it does it definitely does i was

0:24:02.320,0:24:06.559

going to save this for later but

0:24:03.600,0:24:08.320

just because you brought it up just now

0:24:06.559,0:24:10.720

you mentioned

0:24:08.320,0:24:12.000

nora being aware of and knowing at four

0:24:10.720,0:24:15.520

years old that

0:24:12.000,0:24:18.400

she she has a sister and how did you

0:24:15.520,0:24:18.880

arrive at the decision to to tailor was

0:24:18.400,0:24:20.799

that

0:24:18.880,0:24:22.480

an easy decision was that something that

0:24:20.799,0:24:24.720

you and your husband discuss

0:24:22.480,0:24:27.039

to did you have similarly different

0:24:24.720,0:24:30.880

opinions how did that go

0:24:27.039,0:24:34.799

um we we decided

0:24:30.880,0:24:37.200

really early on that um

0:24:34.799,0:24:39.919

we weren't going to pretend that lena

0:24:37.200,0:24:41.520

didn't exist

0:24:39.919,0:24:44.000

and we weren't going to hide it from

0:24:41.520,0:24:44.000

nora

0:24:44.960,0:24:49.200

like we both knew that um and and you

0:24:47.440,0:24:51.039

know and i'll say the other thing is

0:24:49.200,0:24:52.799

and i don't know you know i don't know

0:24:51.039,0:24:55.840

that you guys would know this but

0:24:52.799,0:24:57.039

couples that lose children um you know

0:24:55.840,0:25:00.159

have an eight like almost

0:24:57.039,0:25:03.600

something like an 80 chance of

0:25:00.159,0:25:05.360

getting divorced um just because

0:25:03.600,0:25:06.640

you know people grieve in such different

0:25:05.360,0:25:10.320

ways and it's such

0:25:06.640,0:25:13.679

a um distinctively difficult

0:25:10.320,0:25:17.600

type of loss you know it just disrupts

0:25:13.679,0:25:19.520

the natural cycle of life you know um

0:25:17.600,0:25:21.440

so you know we also made a promise to

0:25:19.520,0:25:22.400

each other that if we were thinking

0:25:21.440,0:25:24.799

about her

0:25:22.400,0:25:26.640

or if we were having you know one of

0:25:24.799,0:25:28.640

those days and said what's wrong

0:25:26.640,0:25:29.760

instead of nothing like we wouldn't say

0:25:28.640,0:25:32.400

nothing

0:25:29.760,0:25:33.919

you know we wouldn't just push it under

0:25:32.400,0:25:35.760

the rug and pretend that things were

0:25:33.919,0:25:38.799

fine because things are not fine

0:25:35.760,0:25:40.799

when that happens to you you know so

0:25:38.799,0:25:42.559

um so very early on we would take note

0:25:40.799,0:25:44.559

of the cemetery when we would go visit

0:25:42.559,0:25:45.520

and we would try to explain things and

0:25:44.559,0:25:46.559

there were some really tough

0:25:45.520,0:25:50.000

conversations

0:25:46.559,0:25:51.440

um you know she would ask if lena was

0:25:50.000,0:25:54.720

sleeping

0:25:51.440,0:25:58.080

and you know

0:25:54.720,0:25:59.919

why there was a rock on top of her and

0:25:58.080,0:26:01.600

you know how is she gonna get out if

0:25:59.919,0:26:05.120

there's a rock on top of her

0:26:01.600,0:26:06.880

and that was a lot of you know she's

0:26:05.120,0:26:09.279

she's slowly come to understand that

0:26:06.880,0:26:12.640

like no people don't come back

0:26:09.279,0:26:14.480

and lena's not just sleeping um but that

0:26:12.640,0:26:18.559

we can love her from here

0:26:14.480,0:26:21.600

and um you know we in judaism we take

0:26:18.559,0:26:24.480

rocks out to uh the cemetery

0:26:21.600,0:26:25.679

so whenever we go somewhere we'll look

0:26:24.480,0:26:28.320

for rocks to take

0:26:25.679,0:26:30.000

to lena or nora will come home with

0:26:28.320,0:26:30.960

something from school like they painted

0:26:30.000,0:26:32.720

rocks one time

0:26:30.960,0:26:34.320

and she said i made this for lena you

0:26:32.720,0:26:38.240

know and so

0:26:34.320,0:26:40.240

no we're very much open about it okay

0:26:38.240,0:26:41.760

i fascinate against it ryan i know

0:26:40.240,0:26:42.559

you're on ever so slight delay so i want

0:26:41.760,0:26:44.240

to give you

0:26:42.559,0:26:46.480

a little bit of chance to to react

0:26:44.240,0:26:49.200

before um yeah loads to say

0:26:46.480,0:26:49.760

um i've always got less to say that's my

0:26:49.200,0:26:52.000

problem

0:26:49.760,0:26:53.679

maybe the internet connection it's good

0:26:52.000,0:26:54.960

it's making me listen instead of talking

0:26:53.679,0:26:58.080

too much

0:26:54.960,0:27:01.440

um no but i just think

0:26:58.080,0:27:04.880

yeah yes you guys um

0:27:01.440,0:27:06.080

i've done an amazing job honestly i've

0:27:04.880,0:27:08.799

got two i've got two kids

0:27:06.080,0:27:10.240

and i don't know how i would i it

0:27:08.799,0:27:13.679

doesn't even be a thinking of

0:27:10.240,0:27:15.520

like that kind of loss um we have had

0:27:13.679,0:27:18.000

that loss in the family uh

0:27:15.520,0:27:20.240

my mom i was had a very late pregnancy

0:27:18.000,0:27:21.919

with a new husband

0:27:20.240,0:27:24.399

and she had complications and ended up

0:27:21.919,0:27:26.640

with a stillbirth so

0:27:24.399,0:27:28.960

um the difficulty for her was she never

0:27:26.640,0:27:30.880

ever got

0:27:28.960,0:27:32.640

a birth certificate or anything because

0:27:30.880,0:27:33.120

they deemed that she hadn't taken a

0:27:32.640,0:27:35.440

breath

0:27:33.120,0:27:36.880

so therefore she never existed and my

0:27:35.440,0:27:40.000

mum couldn't cope with that

0:27:36.880,0:27:44.559

in the slightest so i've seen it from

0:27:40.000,0:27:44.559

outside but not experienced

0:27:46.720,0:27:50.640

just seeing how strong you have been as

0:27:48.720,0:27:53.279

a as a family and

0:27:50.640,0:27:55.360

listening to your your daughter um

0:27:53.279,0:27:57.279

trying to reconcile that whole thing is

0:27:55.360,0:27:59.440

it's really empowering it's really kind

0:27:57.279,0:28:03.840

of wonderful to be honest

0:27:59.440,0:28:03.840

and just how great you've handled it and

0:28:04.720,0:28:10.320

um yeah yeah

0:28:08.320,0:28:12.240

and just to add as well my own

0:28:10.320,0:28:14.799

experience um

0:28:12.240,0:28:16.000

i had an aunt i remember probably in my

0:28:14.799,0:28:18.559

my youth maybe as a

0:28:16.000,0:28:20.480

young teenager my aunt went through a

0:28:18.559,0:28:20.880

similar thing to what you just said ryan

0:28:20.480,0:28:21.919

0:28:20.880,0:28:24.240

going back to what you said earlier

0:28:21.919,0:28:25.279

jessica about how how common it actually

0:28:24.240,0:28:26.799

is and

0:28:25.279,0:28:28.480

perhaps you listening as well maybe can

0:28:26.799,0:28:29.279

relate you may be yourself or know

0:28:28.480,0:28:31.039

someone and

0:28:29.279,0:28:33.120

it does seem to be something that so

0:28:31.039,0:28:36.320

many people go through so it's great

0:28:33.120,0:28:36.320

to have the conversation as well

0:28:36.720,0:28:40.640

let's take a short break if you don't

0:28:37.919,0:28:44.159

mind just for a minute or two um

0:28:40.640,0:28:46.080

no perfect you recording mine

0:28:44.159,0:28:48.720

i am yes thank you and it's nice to be

0:28:46.080,0:28:50.960

with you this time instead of like

0:28:48.720,0:28:52.799

crazy satellite delay definitely yes i

0:28:50.960,0:28:54.159

know it truly is like a zoom call that

0:28:52.799,0:28:55.679

way it was really hard for me because i

0:28:54.159,0:28:58.080

was like i can't interrupt

0:28:55.679,0:28:59.600

no no no no i was saying that during the

0:28:58.080,0:29:01.360

break as well jessica was like ryan

0:28:59.600,0:29:02.399

often has so much to say it's great to

0:29:01.360,0:29:05.200

have him and

0:29:02.399,0:29:05.919

i was so cautious of of seeing too much

0:29:05.200,0:29:07.600

and

0:29:05.919,0:29:10.799

we're good we have a whole another

0:29:07.600,0:29:10.799

segment now so i don't

0:29:10.840,0:29:14.320

know

0:29:12.720,0:29:15.760

the tone of this segment is going to be

0:29:14.320,0:29:16.559

a lot different just because i can

0:29:15.760,0:29:17.919

actually react

0:29:16.559,0:29:20.399

i think i'll just mute myself i'll just

0:29:17.919,0:29:22.559

go let you guys just just be a two-man

0:29:20.399,0:29:25.200

show

0:29:22.559,0:29:26.240

all right uh so jessica we've spoken a

0:29:25.200,0:29:28.480

lot about

0:29:26.240,0:29:29.279

your journey up to this point and you've

0:29:28.480,0:29:32.080

shared with us

0:29:29.279,0:29:33.120

such amazing insight into how you've

0:29:32.080,0:29:36.240

coped with

0:29:33.120,0:29:39.120

with unthinkable circumstances we

0:29:36.240,0:29:40.159

our idea for this podcast came about to

0:29:39.120,0:29:42.240

try and talk about

0:29:40.159,0:29:43.679

the the thoughts and the feelings the

0:29:42.240,0:29:46.159

emotions that go along with having kids

0:29:43.679,0:29:49.039

and we met online through reddit

0:29:46.159,0:29:49.520

where you were talking about potentially

0:29:49.039,0:29:52.320

having

0:29:49.520,0:29:54.799

another child so i want to sort of delve

0:29:52.320,0:29:58.880

into that if you will um

0:29:54.799,0:30:02.240

firstly do you feel that you

0:29:58.880,0:30:05.440

needs or need i guess four years

0:30:02.240,0:30:07.279

to between your loss and your first

0:30:05.440,0:30:08.399

birth to get this point or was that

0:30:07.279,0:30:11.200

something that

0:30:08.399,0:30:12.559

would happen for a different reason or

0:30:11.200,0:30:16.559

0:30:12.559,0:30:19.600

yeah i mean short answer yes um

0:30:16.559,0:30:23.600

about six months after

0:30:19.600,0:30:26.320

um the girls were born and i lost lena

0:30:23.600,0:30:28.320

um i did get pregnant again and um i

0:30:26.320,0:30:31.200

actually i miscarried

0:30:28.320,0:30:32.240

here's the interesting thing my

0:30:31.200,0:30:36.880

headspace

0:30:32.240,0:30:39.120

was really um i can fix this

0:30:36.880,0:30:40.240

right like i can fix this if i can just

0:30:39.120,0:30:43.840

have another one

0:30:40.240,0:30:47.120

i was supposed to have two i need two

0:30:43.840,0:30:48.480

like that's what's wrong um you know and

0:30:47.120,0:30:49.919

i just think there was a lot of things

0:30:48.480,0:30:51.440

going on there i don't think my body was

0:30:49.919,0:30:53.760

ready to be pregnant again

0:30:51.440,0:30:54.559

i it had been through trauma you know

0:30:53.760,0:30:58.000

and

0:30:54.559,0:30:59.600

um so i think

0:30:58.000,0:31:01.120

after that i was just like you know i

0:30:59.600,0:31:03.200

need a break i need to heal

0:31:01.120,0:31:04.799

i need to raise my daughter and then

0:31:03.200,0:31:06.720

yeah so it took

0:31:04.799,0:31:08.399

it took three and a half four years to

0:31:06.720,0:31:11.519

get to a point now where

0:31:08.399,0:31:13.679

we've kind of said to each other like

0:31:11.519,0:31:15.679

i think this is you know this feels

0:31:13.679,0:31:18.240

right now

0:31:15.679,0:31:19.919

so did that time arrive at the same time

0:31:18.240,0:31:22.159

for both of you or do you feel one of

0:31:19.919,0:31:25.360

you was ready before the other

0:31:22.159,0:31:27.600

um i think we were

0:31:25.360,0:31:29.360

on pretty similar timelines there was

0:31:27.600,0:31:32.480

definitely a

0:31:29.360,0:31:34.720

big period in there where we said

0:31:32.480,0:31:34.720

0:31:35.519,0:31:42.960

that we were done just because

0:31:39.200,0:31:42.960

i didn't think that i could

0:31:43.279,0:31:46.320

i didn't think that i had the mental

0:31:45.440,0:31:49.919

capacity

0:31:46.320,0:31:53.200

to go through all of that again um

0:31:49.919,0:31:55.360

that's understandable though yeah right

0:31:53.200,0:31:57.120

because it's a lot even when nothing bad

0:31:55.360,0:32:00.080

happens i mean

0:31:57.120,0:32:00.799

you know it's it's just it's a lot of

0:32:00.080,0:32:02.640

stress

0:32:00.799,0:32:04.080

and it's stress on you and stress on

0:32:02.640,0:32:07.200

your body and on your family

0:32:04.080,0:32:10.240

and um you know it was

0:32:07.200,0:32:12.240

it was always a fight i think because

0:32:10.240,0:32:14.399

um the thought of nora being alone when

0:32:12.240,0:32:17.519

she was never supposed to be alone

0:32:14.399,0:32:19.200

you know was really weighing on me

0:32:17.519,0:32:20.799

but then i would think but that's not a

0:32:19.200,0:32:23.760

reason to have a kid

0:32:20.799,0:32:25.279

you know or it would be the you know i

0:32:23.760,0:32:25.919

need another one because i was supposed

0:32:25.279,0:32:29.519

to have two

0:32:25.919,0:32:31.440

that's not a reason to have a kid um

0:32:29.519,0:32:33.440

so i think it kind of it was an

0:32:31.440,0:32:36.240

evolution of

0:32:33.440,0:32:38.080

um feeling like feeling out what the

0:32:36.240,0:32:42.080

wrong reasons were

0:32:38.080,0:32:42.080

until i came up with the right reasons

0:32:46.480,0:32:51.279

um i think i i think i kind of realized

0:32:50.320,0:32:53.440

that like

0:32:51.279,0:32:55.760

i have love in my heart for another

0:32:53.440,0:32:58.240

child that i haven't met yet

0:32:55.760,0:32:59.600

you know like um i'm always like having

0:32:58.240,0:33:01.039

another child doesn't mean i'm gonna

0:32:59.600,0:33:03.360

forget lena

0:33:01.039,0:33:04.880

and it doesn't mean i've moved on like

0:33:03.360,0:33:08.399

it doesn't have to mean that

0:33:04.880,0:33:10.720

you know um but just that

0:33:08.399,0:33:12.000

if i have another child i want that

0:33:10.720,0:33:13.760

child for that child

0:33:12.000,0:33:15.279

and not because i'm missing something

0:33:13.760,0:33:17.360

else in my life

0:33:15.279,0:33:18.880

yeah i think um that would have been

0:33:17.360,0:33:21.200

something that would wear my mind

0:33:18.880,0:33:22.799

and obviously you your mindset seems way

0:33:21.200,0:33:24.240

more positive than mine would be in the

0:33:22.799,0:33:27.039

same situation

0:33:24.240,0:33:28.240

um but i would always be second guessing

0:33:27.039,0:33:30.720

myself wondering

0:33:28.240,0:33:32.960

whether or not i was trying to replace

0:33:30.720,0:33:36.080

like a space or that that

0:33:32.960,0:33:38.159

person or um for that reason

0:33:36.080,0:33:39.360

and i i assume you've been through that

0:33:38.159,0:33:42.799

thought process yourself

0:33:39.360,0:33:43.919

but um i don't know

0:33:42.799,0:33:45.279

again i think you're a bit of a

0:33:43.919,0:33:46.240

superhero because i don't know if i

0:33:45.279,0:33:48.960

could go

0:33:46.240,0:33:49.279

through the same thought process well

0:33:48.960,0:33:51.039

but

0:33:49.279,0:33:52.320

you already have because you know that's

0:33:51.039,0:33:53.679

what you're saying and

0:33:52.320,0:33:55.840

those are the same you know it's the

0:33:53.679,0:33:57.200

same thought process i have i had and

0:33:55.840,0:33:58.480

like part of the reason that we waited

0:33:57.200,0:34:00.080

is because

0:33:58.480,0:34:02.559

we didn't want to bring a child into the

0:34:00.080,0:34:04.080

world as a replacement for someone else

0:34:02.559,0:34:06.000

yeah you know because that's not fair to

0:34:04.080,0:34:08.000

them yeah it's understandable

0:34:06.000,0:34:10.240

but some people might not be might not

0:34:08.000,0:34:12.000

have been as self-aware and have

0:34:10.240,0:34:14.480

made that same choice they might have

0:34:12.000,0:34:15.679

just gone straight into it without a lot

0:34:14.480,0:34:18.800

of thought you know

0:34:15.679,0:34:20.720

and i think that again just

0:34:18.800,0:34:22.240

shows the power of the strength in you

0:34:20.720,0:34:25.200

that you have waited

0:34:22.240,0:34:25.599

i mean four years is arguably not a long

0:34:25.200,0:34:28.720

time

0:34:25.599,0:34:29.760

a gap between like two children for

0:34:28.720,0:34:32.079

example

0:34:29.760,0:34:33.520

and some people wait a lot longer before

0:34:32.079,0:34:37.280

they have another child

0:34:33.520,0:34:40.399

so they chose i think your resolve and

0:34:37.280,0:34:42.800

your strength as well as a family that

0:34:40.399,0:34:44.800

after such what you could call a short

0:34:42.800,0:34:46.960

time four years

0:34:44.800,0:34:48.159

that you're ready to to be in that

0:34:46.960,0:34:50.560

headspace again again

0:34:48.159,0:34:52.399

it just kind of you're an impressive

0:34:50.560,0:34:52.960

person that's that's my point of view

0:34:52.399,0:34:55.919

anyway

0:34:52.960,0:34:56.560

thank you i want to take you back to

0:34:55.919,0:34:58.560

something

0:34:56.560,0:34:59.920

that you said just a moment ago jessica

0:34:58.560,0:35:01.440

that stuck with me so much that i've

0:34:59.920,0:35:02.800

written it down so i can read out what i

0:35:01.440,0:35:05.760

think is verbatim

0:35:02.800,0:35:06.640

um and it almost comes back to the crux

0:35:05.760,0:35:09.599

0:35:06.640,0:35:10.320

why we want to do this podcast or

0:35:09.599,0:35:12.560

certainly

0:35:10.320,0:35:14.160

why i want to do this season and you

0:35:12.560,0:35:17.119

spoke about having

0:35:14.160,0:35:18.720

i think word for word space in your

0:35:17.119,0:35:21.599

heart space in my heart um

0:35:18.720,0:35:25.280

for another child is what you said and i

0:35:21.599,0:35:27.359

think that struck me so much because

0:35:25.280,0:35:30.320

i'm in the place right now as i said

0:35:27.359,0:35:33.520

earlier not that far off 30

0:35:30.320,0:35:35.680

and i don't

0:35:33.520,0:35:37.440

know what i want to do i don't know

0:35:35.680,0:35:41.200

where i want to go and

0:35:37.440,0:35:42.800

i mentioned to you before um i teach i

0:35:41.200,0:35:45.520

teach in secondary school and

0:35:42.800,0:35:46.400

that takes up a huge amount of my life

0:35:45.520,0:35:48.800

and my energy

0:35:46.400,0:35:50.320

in a good way you know what i have so

0:35:48.800,0:35:52.880

much passion for what i do and

0:35:50.320,0:35:54.720

i work with children young people five

0:35:52.880,0:35:58.720

days a week

0:35:54.720,0:36:01.599

and i don't know i'm conflicted

0:35:58.720,0:36:03.599

i feel like i do have the space and then

0:36:01.599,0:36:05.599

i feel like i don't have the space and

0:36:03.599,0:36:06.640

i just kind of want to delve into to

0:36:05.599,0:36:09.760

your

0:36:06.640,0:36:11.920

how you arrived at that that's um

0:36:09.760,0:36:13.839

you know but here's the thing is that

0:36:11.920,0:36:17.359

you will have space

0:36:13.839,0:36:19.440

no really i mean it it um they say that

0:36:17.359,0:36:21.440

you know like women become mothers like

0:36:19.440,0:36:22.960

as soon as they become pregnant like it

0:36:21.440,0:36:26.000

just is inherent

0:36:22.960,0:36:27.280

and fathers become fathers when they see

0:36:26.000,0:36:29.520

that kid for the first time and it

0:36:27.280,0:36:32.480

becomes very very real

0:36:29.520,0:36:32.880

um and my husband is one of these guys

0:36:32.480,0:36:36.079

that

0:36:32.880,0:36:38.160

just he's like a deer in the headlights

0:36:36.079,0:36:39.920

it takes him so long to like get used to

0:36:38.160,0:36:41.280

an idea we just bought a new car and he

0:36:39.920,0:36:42.800

was just like

0:36:41.280,0:36:45.119

i mean he wouldn't almost talk to me for

0:36:42.800,0:36:46.960

a week because he was so

0:36:45.119,0:36:48.480

like terrified at the amount of money

0:36:46.960,0:36:51.200

that we just spent you know

0:36:48.480,0:36:53.599

and like now he loves it he just zoom

0:36:51.200,0:36:56.640

zooms around town and like you know but

0:36:53.599,0:36:58.480

it took him a while and um

0:36:56.640,0:36:59.760

so you know he was when he found out

0:36:58.480,0:37:01.280

we're having twins and everything i mean

0:36:59.760,0:37:02.880

it was just like

0:37:01.280,0:37:04.640

i just kept i mean i'd look at him all

0:37:02.880,0:37:08.640

the time and be like is this okay

0:37:04.640,0:37:11.760

like what was he gonna do about it yeah

0:37:08.640,0:37:12.880

you know too late now but um you know

0:37:11.760,0:37:16.320

like are you okay like

0:37:12.880,0:37:19.599

you know is this is this okay um

0:37:16.320,0:37:22.880

but you know like may 10 2016

0:37:19.599,0:37:24.560

like his whole world changed and whether

0:37:22.880,0:37:28.079

he wasn't sure that there was room

0:37:24.560,0:37:30.160

or you know it his heart was made

0:37:28.079,0:37:31.680

he had no choice you just fall in love

0:37:30.160,0:37:34.079

you know and

0:37:31.680,0:37:35.440

um i'm not gonna lie you know you give

0:37:34.079,0:37:36.240

up certain things when you become a

0:37:35.440,0:37:39.119

parent

0:37:36.240,0:37:40.720

um you give up certain freedoms um my

0:37:39.119,0:37:42.880

favorite is people who have

0:37:40.720,0:37:45.119

you know pets and dogs oh this is my

0:37:42.880,0:37:46.720

furry baby you know my furry animal is

0:37:45.119,0:37:50.720

like no idea like no

0:37:46.720,0:37:52.400

no say thank you thank you i've got cats

0:37:50.720,0:37:53.760

it's not the same thing i can put some

0:37:52.400,0:37:55.440

food down and walk out

0:37:53.760,0:37:57.280

and not see that for a couple of days

0:37:55.440,0:37:58.560

you know i can't do that with my kids it

0:37:57.280,0:38:00.800

would be friendly right

0:37:58.560,0:38:02.480

right legal when it's legal for me to

0:38:00.800,0:38:05.520

kennel my child

0:38:02.480,0:38:08.800

and just like yeah exactly then let's

0:38:05.520,0:38:10.480

talk you know it's just um

0:38:08.800,0:38:11.839

so yeah like things are things are more

0:38:10.480,0:38:13.359

difficult and that was definitely

0:38:11.839,0:38:16.480

something that we thought about

0:38:13.359,0:38:18.400

um you know america is probably

0:38:16.480,0:38:19.599

probably one of the worst countries that

0:38:18.400,0:38:23.119

you can become a parent

0:38:19.599,0:38:26.000

in you know um parental leave is a joke

0:38:23.119,0:38:26.720

you know um daycare is ridiculously

0:38:26.000,0:38:29.359

expensive

0:38:26.720,0:38:30.720

because there's no parental leave um it

0:38:29.359,0:38:33.920

it definitely

0:38:30.720,0:38:37.280

makes life a lot harder

0:38:33.920,0:38:38.640

um but it's worth it we're

0:38:37.280,0:38:41.920

a little bit better off over here

0:38:38.640,0:38:45.040

because we do have um

0:38:41.920,0:38:47.359

parental leave but um we get it as well

0:38:45.040,0:38:48.079

like we i could take time off i could

0:38:47.359,0:38:50.560

share it yeah

0:38:48.079,0:38:51.359

i could share it i did for my from my

0:38:50.560,0:38:54.079

firstborn

0:38:51.359,0:38:55.839

um i shared it with my wife um she had

0:38:54.079,0:38:57.440

already said that she was going back to

0:38:55.839,0:38:57.920

work and she was only going to take half

0:38:57.440,0:39:00.000

the

0:38:57.920,0:39:01.920

the time period so i stayed over the

0:39:00.000,0:39:04.880

other half of the time period with

0:39:01.920,0:39:05.280

my son and then i was amazing being just

0:39:04.880,0:39:07.440

that

0:39:05.280,0:39:08.320

i didn't go back to work i became the

0:39:07.440,0:39:10.160

parental i

0:39:08.320,0:39:11.680

became the main caregiver in the house

0:39:10.160,0:39:13.520

oh my husband would love it he says

0:39:11.680,0:39:16.800

that's his dream

0:39:13.520,0:39:20.079

right it has his moments

0:39:16.800,0:39:23.119

um what i would want to say to

0:39:20.079,0:39:24.880

to paul is um you've got space in your

0:39:23.119,0:39:28.720

heart but maybe not space in

0:39:24.880,0:39:31.839

your um your professional life yet

0:39:28.720,0:39:33.599

you've not made that headspace you've um

0:39:31.839,0:39:35.200

you've clearly obviously thinking about

0:39:33.599,0:39:36.880

it so the space is in your heart but i

0:39:35.200,0:39:38.960

would say that it's probably

0:39:36.880,0:39:40.320

the logistic stuff that's not falling in

0:39:38.960,0:39:42.320

place for you yet

0:39:40.320,0:39:43.680

um i will say this so when it happens

0:39:42.320,0:39:46.000

you have no choice you just get ready

0:39:43.680,0:39:47.760

well

0:39:46.000,0:39:49.760

yeah i've been i've been told i've seen

0:39:47.760,0:39:53.280

it firsthand

0:39:49.760,0:39:55.440

jessica i delving really deep here

0:39:53.280,0:39:56.640

and a really philosophical question for

0:39:55.440,0:39:59.839

you but

0:39:56.640,0:40:04.160

how how did you both

0:39:59.839,0:40:08.079

your husband yourself know

0:40:04.160,0:40:10.000

now or around about now that yeah

0:40:08.079,0:40:12.000

this is what we want to do are we pretty

0:40:10.000,0:40:15.760

sure this is what we want to do

0:40:12.000,0:40:15.760

have another child um

0:40:17.520,0:40:20.640

you want an honest answer yeah go on

0:40:19.760,0:40:22.079

please yeah

0:40:20.640,0:40:24.640

yeah you're not sure is that the

0:40:22.079,0:40:26.079

honestly no well no well that's

0:40:24.640,0:40:27.920

i mean that's that's a good point like

0:40:26.079,0:40:29.280

you're never really sure and that's

0:40:27.920,0:40:31.440

really what it comes down to

0:40:29.280,0:40:32.480

is um you know you can do all the

0:40:31.440,0:40:34.560

financial planning

0:40:32.480,0:40:36.400

all the bucket you know bucket list

0:40:34.560,0:40:37.599

travel you can do all of that and still

0:40:36.400,0:40:40.880

not be ready

0:40:37.599,0:40:41.839

and it's kind of a um get ready to bleep

0:40:40.880,0:40:44.000

again but it's a

0:40:41.839,0:40:45.839

get off the pot situation like you

0:40:44.000,0:40:48.560

either do it or you don't

0:40:45.839,0:40:50.000

you know um because i think if you think

0:40:48.560,0:40:52.560

too much about it

0:40:50.000,0:40:54.319

you won't do it you know now now all i'm

0:40:52.560,0:40:56.800

thinking about is the movie clerks

0:40:54.319,0:40:58.319

that's where you've through my headspace

0:40:56.800,0:41:02.560

yeah it's just gone over my head

0:40:58.319,0:41:04.240

yeah um but also like some truth here is

0:41:02.560,0:41:05.280

that my husband is seven years older

0:41:04.240,0:41:09.680

than me

0:41:05.280,0:41:13.520

um so he's 41. um

0:41:09.680,0:41:16.400

and um as my doctor so lovingly

0:41:13.520,0:41:18.480

reminded me i am not 21 anymore thanks

0:41:16.400,0:41:22.079

for that

0:41:18.480,0:41:24.160

um yes i really appreciated that

0:41:22.079,0:41:25.119

and so it kind of became one of those

0:41:24.160,0:41:28.160

things where

0:41:25.119,0:41:29.839

um you know uh

0:41:28.160,0:41:32.000

if we're gonna do it let's just do it

0:41:29.839,0:41:36.960

because we're not getting any younger

0:41:32.000,0:41:40.800

and um i mean if we're you know like

0:41:36.960,0:41:41.440

why not so so yeah i mean it's a little

0:41:40.800,0:41:46.000

bit of

0:41:41.440,0:41:48.240

um just reality kind of sets in

0:41:46.000,0:41:49.839

because i probably you know you say i'm

0:41:48.240,0:41:51.359

a superhero but like honestly i probably

0:41:49.839,0:41:56.000

could have waited 10 years

0:41:51.359,0:41:58.079

and still like been wondering

0:41:56.000,0:41:59.440

yeah like i'm always gonna wonder if i'm

0:41:58.079,0:42:01.040

ready like

0:41:59.440,0:42:02.800

it's that doesn't part of it just

0:42:01.040,0:42:06.079

doesn't really go away

0:42:02.800,0:42:08.000

um you just have to decide i mean

0:42:06.079,0:42:09.359

there's a moment there's there's there

0:42:08.000,0:42:10.880

was a moment you know

0:42:09.359,0:42:12.960

after you take the test it comes back

0:42:10.880,0:42:16.800

positive that i was just like what

0:42:12.960,0:42:19.359

did i do what did i do

0:42:16.800,0:42:21.280

you know and there are still some times

0:42:19.359,0:42:24.319

when nora is having a tantrum

0:42:21.280,0:42:26.640

or um you know

0:42:24.319,0:42:28.720

just is being a monster and i'm like

0:42:26.640,0:42:32.319

what did i do

0:42:28.720,0:42:32.319

why do i want to do this again

0:42:32.640,0:42:36.640

it's interesting you say you shouldn't

0:42:35.359,0:42:38.400

overthink it

0:42:36.640,0:42:40.319

because now i'm sort of wondering

0:42:38.400,0:42:42.050

whether making a podcast about it was

0:42:40.319,0:42:45.940

the best idea or not but anyway too late

0:42:42.050,0:42:45.940

[Laughter]

0:42:50.400,0:42:54.160

but it's not it's not too late to just

0:42:52.400,0:42:56.160

throw caution into the wind i mean

0:42:54.160,0:42:57.359

you know how it works you just gotta do

0:42:56.160,0:43:01.359

0:42:57.359,0:43:03.920

how does that work jessica oh to me

0:43:01.359,0:43:05.680

get my bleeper button where did i put it

0:43:03.920,0:43:07.500

let's talk about all the other things

0:43:05.680,0:43:10.319

that americans are bad about teaching

0:43:07.500,0:43:12.319

[Laughter]

0:43:10.319,0:43:13.760

does does not know i don't think that's

0:43:12.319,0:43:15.119

just america

0:43:13.760,0:43:17.440

yeah that's a good point that's a good

0:43:15.119,0:43:19.119

point does nora know that this is

0:43:17.440,0:43:20.880

on your mind or is that a conversation

0:43:19.119,0:43:24.839

that that's not come up yet or is it

0:43:20.880,0:43:27.599

going to come up um

0:43:24.839,0:43:30.800

it it will she doesn't know

0:43:27.599,0:43:34.240

um that this is kind of what we want now

0:43:30.800,0:43:36.720

um nobody knows except for you guys

0:43:34.240,0:43:37.359

wow and the internet let's not let's not

0:43:36.720,0:43:41.520

put the same

0:43:37.359,0:43:43.920

really early oh it's fine i mean

0:43:41.520,0:43:44.640

you know the thing is is that um we

0:43:43.920,0:43:46.000

don't want to get

0:43:44.640,0:43:47.680

we don't want to get our hopes up we

0:43:46.000,0:43:48.319

don't want to get anybody else's hopes

0:43:47.680,0:43:51.200

0:43:48.319,0:43:52.960

um you know nor like some of the things

0:43:51.200,0:43:56.400

that i've heard nora say

0:43:52.960,0:43:57.359

um i just don't wanna i don't wanna

0:43:56.400,0:44:00.079

disappoint

0:43:57.359,0:44:01.680

you know so i think even if even if we

0:44:00.079,0:44:04.560

do get pregnant and

0:44:01.680,0:44:05.520

um i probably won't tell her for a while

0:44:04.560,0:44:09.839

until i feel

0:44:05.520,0:44:13.280

good about things you know um

0:44:09.839,0:44:17.200

but uh she'll be so excited

0:44:13.280,0:44:20.839

she is a like she loves to baby things

0:44:17.200,0:44:23.839

she pretends to do all the mommy stuff

0:44:20.839,0:44:23.839

0:44:28.880,0:44:32.560

we've got a boy and a girl and they're

0:44:30.480,0:44:33.920

completely different and he could not

0:44:32.560,0:44:36.960

care less about

0:44:33.920,0:44:37.440

animals and people off up there he's

0:44:36.960,0:44:41.040

more like

0:44:37.440,0:44:43.520

can i play pokemon just just like

0:44:41.040,0:44:43.520

that then

0:44:44.880,0:44:49.119

come on you're learning too many of my

0:44:47.760,0:44:50.560

secrets

0:44:49.119,0:44:52.560

we like dressed nora in like gender

0:44:50.560,0:44:53.280

neutral clothes and gave her like toy

0:44:52.560,0:44:55.359

hammers

0:44:53.280,0:44:58.319

and like she was just like princesses

0:44:55.359,0:45:01.040

and pink and dresses

0:44:58.319,0:45:03.119

like how did i make that we did not push

0:45:01.040,0:45:05.119

any gender roles on either of our kids

0:45:03.119,0:45:06.560

and other people we did get a bit

0:45:05.119,0:45:07.920

outside influence on that where it's

0:45:06.560,0:45:10.240

like grandparents would be like

0:45:07.920,0:45:12.319

you have to wear this yes no you're not

0:45:10.240,0:45:16.000

allowed to wear a dress jackson

0:45:12.319,0:45:18.560

yeah you're not allowed um

0:45:16.000,0:45:19.520

let them wear two two whatever yes as

0:45:18.560,0:45:22.079

long as he's happy

0:45:19.520,0:45:23.680

um so we have never ever pushed any

0:45:22.079,0:45:24.400

gender roles on any of our kids but they

0:45:23.680,0:45:26.319

have fallen

0:45:24.400,0:45:27.839

quite happily into the boy who plays

0:45:26.319,0:45:29.520

with these guys

0:45:27.839,0:45:31.359

and the girl who's got the princesses in

0:45:29.520,0:45:32.319

the castle and we have not pushed that

0:45:31.359,0:45:34.480

in any way

0:45:32.319,0:45:36.079

it's an interesting study into nature

0:45:34.480,0:45:38.640

versus nurture

0:45:36.079,0:45:39.359

yeah yeah definitely an interesting

0:45:38.640,0:45:40.720

study because

0:45:39.359,0:45:42.960

i thought we were doing a good job of

0:45:40.720,0:45:44.720

not influencing that and

0:45:42.960,0:45:46.400

it's just happening why do i feel a good

0:45:44.720,0:45:49.119

idea for a podcast season coming on let

0:45:46.400,0:45:49.119

me just write that down

0:45:49.680,0:45:52.800

i mean it's so true it's so true i mean

0:45:52.079,0:45:54.640

nora will say

0:45:52.800,0:45:57.040

stuff like boys can't have long hair and

0:45:54.640,0:46:00.240

i'm like yes they can

0:45:57.040,0:46:02.160

girls can have short hair boys and she

0:46:00.240,0:46:03.760

has a good friend at school

0:46:02.160,0:46:05.520

who like dressed up as elsa for

0:46:03.760,0:46:06.400

halloween a little boy like dressed up

0:46:05.520,0:46:08.319

like elsa

0:46:06.400,0:46:09.839

and i just love that i have friends who

0:46:08.319,0:46:12.880

like we're strong enough

0:46:09.839,0:46:14.960

definitely yeah like they're so

0:46:12.880,0:46:16.319

supportive of like their kids no matter

0:46:14.960,0:46:17.440

their age they're just like this is who

0:46:16.319,0:46:21.599

they are and that's fine

0:46:17.440,0:46:24.960

you know yeah jessica do you

0:46:21.599,0:46:28.400

do you have any fears going forward um

0:46:24.960,0:46:31.520

about possibly having another child

0:46:28.400,0:46:31.520

yeah then i'll regret it

0:46:32.800,0:46:37.599

you just put my mind at ease and now

0:46:34.720,0:46:39.440

it's going mad again

0:46:37.599,0:46:42.640

here's the thing here's here's what

0:46:39.440,0:46:46.480

really kind of put me at the um

0:46:42.640,0:46:49.760

at the starting line of number three

0:46:46.480,0:46:53.599

i guess technically is um

0:46:49.760,0:46:57.280

you know i have moments

0:46:53.599,0:46:59.920

all the time with nora that i think

0:46:57.280,0:47:01.680

why did i do this you know i don't have

0:46:59.920,0:47:02.480

i mean i don't have the freedom that i

0:47:01.680,0:47:05.599

used to have

0:47:02.480,0:47:08.720

life is more expensive it's harder

0:47:05.599,0:47:11.599

but it's fuller and i love

0:47:08.720,0:47:13.200

her so much and she's just such a joy

0:47:11.599,0:47:16.160

and she's a wonderful

0:47:13.200,0:47:19.359

wonderful human being and i just get so

0:47:16.160,0:47:22.400

excited about the prospect of like

0:47:19.359,0:47:24.240

watching her grow and nurturing whoever

0:47:22.400,0:47:27.839

it is that she's going to be and i

0:47:24.240,0:47:30.480

and i just i think about um

0:47:27.839,0:47:32.079

you know that i could do that again and

0:47:30.480,0:47:32.480

and i'm going to have those regrets

0:47:32.079,0:47:34.319

again

0:47:32.480,0:47:36.480

i'm going to have tantrums in the middle

0:47:34.319,0:47:39.680

of the supermarket where

0:47:36.480,0:47:41.920

are your children

0:47:39.680,0:47:44.000

yeah where i'm just like i could have

0:47:41.920,0:47:45.200

had i could have had a different life

0:47:44.000,0:47:49.280

you know but

0:47:45.200,0:47:52.319

um i'll never that's the thing

0:47:49.280,0:47:54.079

but i'll never regret doing it

0:47:52.319,0:47:56.160

you know like i'll never regret that

0:47:54.079,0:47:58.079

child like i there's always going to be

0:47:56.160,0:47:59.520

regrets but i would regret it more if i

0:47:58.079,0:48:01.839

didn't do it

0:47:59.520,0:48:04.160

you know i would always look back and i

0:48:01.839,0:48:07.520

think i think i would be a little

0:48:04.160,0:48:08.640

bit more empty and i think that's where

0:48:07.520,0:48:11.440

i'm at is that

0:48:08.640,0:48:12.240

um yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna have regrets

0:48:11.440,0:48:14.640

i mean

0:48:12.240,0:48:16.000

yeah it's gonna happen um but i'd have

0:48:14.640,0:48:18.880

more if i didn't

0:48:16.000,0:48:20.160

yeah so i've kept the scales in this in

0:48:18.880,0:48:24.319

favor of

0:48:20.160,0:48:24.800

yeah yeah simple as that really yeah

0:48:24.319,0:48:26.319

yeah

0:48:24.800,0:48:28.640

that that makes sense in my head i can

0:48:26.319,0:48:30.720

see the scales that you know

0:48:28.640,0:48:32.480

that yeah that works for me it does

0:48:30.720,0:48:35.839

listed the pros and cons quite clearly

0:48:32.480,0:48:37.760

there and yeah yes yeah and

0:48:35.839,0:48:39.520

the thing is that's very personal to you

0:48:37.760,0:48:39.839

because other people even listening to

0:48:39.520,0:48:42.000

this

0:48:39.839,0:48:43.839

or in different stages of their lives

0:48:42.000,0:48:47.040

will have a different set of priorities

0:48:43.839,0:48:48.880

and a different scale to to use and

0:48:47.040,0:48:50.480

different things on each side you've

0:48:48.880,0:48:52.960

made that really quite easy

0:48:50.480,0:48:54.720

for people to see where your heads at

0:48:52.960,0:48:56.240

and what and what you're thinking

0:48:54.720,0:48:57.920

which is perfect for what we're trying

0:48:56.240,0:49:01.440

to achieve here 100

0:48:57.920,0:49:02.880

yes you just mentioned earlier jessica

0:49:01.440,0:49:04.510

about

0:49:02.880,0:49:06.319

initially um

0:49:04.510,0:49:09.440

[Music]

0:49:06.319,0:49:12.559

worrying about perhaps

0:49:09.440,0:49:15.280

trying to rebalance and encompass

0:49:12.559,0:49:17.359

having another child as a result of

0:49:15.280,0:49:20.559

having lost a child

0:49:17.359,0:49:22.480

do you worry that that is

0:49:20.559,0:49:23.920

happening again or do you feel that

0:49:22.480,0:49:27.920

you've moved on

0:49:23.920,0:49:29.839

from that um

0:49:27.920,0:49:32.400

that's another double-edged sword right

0:49:29.839,0:49:34.800

because um

0:49:32.400,0:49:36.880

i don't know that i would want another

0:49:34.800,0:49:40.559

one had lena lived

0:49:36.880,0:49:42.720

um so that's always kind of there in the

0:49:40.559,0:49:46.079

back

0:49:42.720,0:49:49.119

but this idea of fixing something

0:49:46.079,0:49:50.319

that can't be fixed um that's not there

0:49:49.119,0:49:52.720

anymore

0:49:50.319,0:49:53.760

okay and you you can't really do with

0:49:52.720,0:49:55.920

the what ifs on that

0:49:53.760,0:49:57.599

you might have had the same thought

0:49:55.920,0:49:58.160

process four years later if you hadn't

0:49:57.599,0:50:01.280

had

0:49:58.160,0:50:03.359

the the trauma for four years ago

0:50:01.280,0:50:04.960

you might still you might still be here

0:50:03.359,0:50:06.160

going do you know what i'm ready now i'm

0:50:04.960,0:50:08.640

in a space where i've got

0:50:06.160,0:50:10.160

more to give for more love to give and

0:50:08.640,0:50:11.440

there's still more space in my heart the

0:50:10.160,0:50:13.440

way you were today

0:50:11.440,0:50:14.800

you know what i do think about sometimes

0:50:13.440,0:50:16.800

you know what i do think about sometimes

0:50:14.800,0:50:19.200

about having another one is um

0:50:16.800,0:50:20.800

i think of things i love to travel and i

0:50:19.200,0:50:21.839

think of things in terms of plane

0:50:20.800,0:50:26.000

tickets

0:50:21.839,0:50:28.640

and um i i realize now that

0:50:26.000,0:50:29.599

i'll have to get more than one like

0:50:28.640,0:50:31.440

three-row

0:50:29.599,0:50:33.200

bench you know like we'll have to be

0:50:31.440,0:50:34.880

separate now

0:50:33.200,0:50:36.640

have to send one parent here and one

0:50:34.880,0:50:38.400

parent there and

0:50:36.640,0:50:41.280

yeah yeah we've done that traveling with

0:50:38.400,0:50:44.880

the five of us in this family and um

0:50:41.280,0:50:46.319

yeah that's a pain in the butt yeah

0:50:44.880,0:50:48.240

sorry unless you're international and

0:50:46.319,0:50:50.880

you can get the whole middle row

0:50:48.240,0:50:55.839

well this is true we have done that once

0:50:50.880,0:50:55.839

it's still a pain in the back

0:51:01.359,0:51:04.480

a little girl on the plane who just

0:51:03.040,0:51:06.400

wanted to speak to her mum but my mom

0:51:04.480,0:51:08.720

just had her headphones and watching tv

0:51:06.400,0:51:10.000

so she was speaking to her mom but the

0:51:08.720,0:51:11.920

rest of us were the ones that were

0:51:10.000,0:51:13.760

actually listening

0:51:11.920,0:51:15.520

i was just like will you please just

0:51:13.760,0:51:16.480

answer your daughter she just wants some

0:51:15.520,0:51:20.160

validation

0:51:16.480,0:51:22.000

like you could just hear the whole plane

0:51:20.160,0:51:23.599

just doing this just

0:51:22.000,0:51:26.060

i could picture her right now i better

0:51:23.599,0:51:27.760

be on that flight as well i'm sure

0:51:26.060,0:51:29.200

[Laughter]

0:51:27.760,0:51:31.040

she was just she was watching tonight on

0:51:29.200,0:51:33.119

tv and she's like hey mommy emo

0:51:31.040,0:51:34.640

she was fairy glaswegian which might not

0:51:33.119,0:51:37.440

mean anything to you jessica but

0:51:34.640,0:51:38.240

i'm sure that's pitchers um she had a

0:51:37.440,0:51:40.640

very strong

0:51:38.240,0:51:41.680

thick accent and it every two seconds it

0:51:40.640,0:51:45.040

was just like hey mommy

0:51:41.680,0:51:48.480

hey mommy and we were just like

0:51:45.040,0:51:49.680

please we answered so she can stop

0:51:48.480,0:51:52.240

asking

0:51:49.680,0:51:55.520

um that's hilarious so the plane travel

0:51:52.240,0:51:58.400

doesn't change yes again i'm sorry

0:51:55.520,0:51:58.880

you know that's good to know i guess you

0:51:58.400,0:52:00.800

know

0:51:58.880,0:52:01.920

and you know you never you never judge

0:52:00.800,0:52:07.599

anybody's parenting

0:52:01.920,0:52:07.599

well is it hard not to take that back

0:52:08.720,0:52:12.480

i i no longer like see like screaming

0:52:11.920,0:52:14.559

children

0:52:12.480,0:52:16.720

and target and go like why can't you

0:52:14.559,0:52:19.040

just control your kid because like

0:52:16.720,0:52:19.040

i don't

0:52:21.040,0:52:26.400

i feel for you you know like more

0:52:24.079,0:52:27.520

like i know i've been there i have

0:52:26.400,0:52:29.920

actually like

0:52:27.520,0:52:30.880

said to other mothers but like you got

0:52:29.920,0:52:32.800

this

0:52:30.880,0:52:34.800

and you'd be amazed that like their

0:52:32.800,0:52:36.400

whole demeanor changes because

0:52:34.800,0:52:37.680

when you're a mom and you know when

0:52:36.400,0:52:39.200

you're a parent and you're standing

0:52:37.680,0:52:41.200

there and your kid is like

0:52:39.200,0:52:42.559

misbehaving in public you're just like

0:52:41.200,0:52:44.559

looking around like

0:52:42.559,0:52:47.119

everybody's judging me and i'm drowning

0:52:44.559,0:52:49.839

in an ocean of you know tantrum

0:52:47.119,0:52:50.880

and yeah when somebody just looks at you

0:52:49.839,0:52:54.160

and is like

0:52:50.880,0:52:54.720

i've been there you i i know and you got

0:52:54.160,0:52:57.119

this

0:52:54.720,0:52:58.480

it just changes just scooped up a child

0:52:57.119,0:53:00.559

and walked them outside and just been

0:52:58.480,0:53:00.559

0:53:05.119,0:53:08.480

have you seen have you seen all the

0:53:06.400,0:53:09.839

memes of like why my toddler's crying or

0:53:08.480,0:53:12.400

like throwing a tantrum

0:53:09.839,0:53:14.559

i haven't been sure i need to know oh

0:53:12.400,0:53:15.839

you need to google these it's like um

0:53:14.559,0:53:17.680

someone would like took a picture of

0:53:15.839,0:53:20.079

their kid having a tantrum

0:53:17.680,0:53:21.680

like my my kid's having a tantrum

0:53:20.079,0:53:25.920

because i won't let him swim

0:53:21.680,0:53:25.920

it's six degrees out and he can't swim

0:53:27.040,0:53:30.800

yeah you're a terrible parent for

0:53:28.720,0:53:32.640

keeping that child

0:53:30.800,0:53:34.240

and it's like that pretty much explains

0:53:32.640,0:53:37.040

toddlerhood right there it

0:53:34.240,0:53:38.079

really does yeah yeah we just you know i

0:53:37.040,0:53:40.559

had a magical moment

0:53:38.079,0:53:41.200

just before we came on to this call and

0:53:40.559,0:53:44.319

i shared

0:53:41.200,0:53:47.839

singing in the rain the movie with kids

0:53:44.319,0:53:49.440

now um as most people like yeah an

0:53:47.839,0:53:50.319

eight-year-old down there six-year-old

0:53:49.440,0:53:51.440

really don't

0:53:50.319,0:53:53.040

not gonna want to watch singing in the

0:53:51.440,0:53:53.839

rain but it's one of my favorite movies

0:53:53.040,0:53:57.040

of all time

0:53:53.839,0:53:59.200

i love that movie no we have to do this

0:53:57.040,0:54:00.079

um i had to stop it at times to explain

0:53:59.200,0:54:02.160

what was going on

0:54:00.079,0:54:03.440

but i i feel like i had a magical moment

0:54:02.160,0:54:04.000

with the kids because they're all

0:54:03.440,0:54:07.040

singing

0:54:04.000,0:54:10.960

and singing in the rain and good morning

0:54:07.040,0:54:10.960

we've done it i've done it i went

0:54:12.640,0:54:15.920

was it was it good morning or make them

0:54:14.400,0:54:16.880

laugh because make them laugh is

0:54:15.920,0:54:19.680

probably oh

0:54:16.880,0:54:20.880

well i warned him before we started um i

0:54:19.680,0:54:23.920

kind of was like he's the

0:54:20.880,0:54:25.680

the kind of dashing hero and

0:54:23.920,0:54:27.520

his love interest and the guy on the end

0:54:25.680,0:54:28.400

he's hilarious so you have to keep an

0:54:27.520,0:54:30.480

eye on him

0:54:28.400,0:54:31.760

and the make them laugh scene is

0:54:30.480,0:54:33.520

obviously brilliant and they were like

0:54:31.760,0:54:34.480

why is he being silly daddy because

0:54:33.520,0:54:38.000

obviously

0:54:34.480,0:54:39.520

i'm always like stopping silly

0:54:38.000,0:54:41.760

has he been so silly that is he's

0:54:39.520,0:54:43.359

dancing on the floor um

0:54:41.760,0:54:44.799

and then once he got used to the fact

0:54:43.359,0:54:46.640

that he was okay for it would be silly

0:54:44.799,0:54:50.839

in this movie they were they were just

0:54:46.640,0:54:52.160

laughing so much it was great oh that's

0:54:50.839,0:54:54.160

wonderful

0:54:52.160,0:54:55.520

i i had a magical moment so i thought

0:54:54.160,0:54:56.880

i'd share that with you because

0:54:55.520,0:54:58.720

yeah well we're talking about the

0:54:56.880,0:55:00.799

tantrums i wanted to balance

0:54:58.720,0:55:04.160

something just the scales have tipped

0:55:00.799,0:55:04.160

again yeah we've had them

0:55:05.200,0:55:08.640

and those moments are the moments you

0:55:06.400,0:55:11.200

kind of live for and i think

0:55:08.640,0:55:12.480

um again i keep calling you a superhero

0:55:11.200,0:55:15.440

but you've gone through

0:55:12.480,0:55:16.559

all of that come out the other side and

0:55:15.440,0:55:20.000

possibly stronger

0:55:16.559,0:55:23.200

i don't know um battle scarred

0:55:20.000,0:55:24.799

definitely um but

0:55:23.200,0:55:26.559

ready to take on a new challenge would

0:55:24.799,0:55:29.839

that be fair yeah

0:55:26.559,0:55:31.920

yeah and i think the positive um

0:55:29.839,0:55:33.200

you know now the positive moments

0:55:31.920,0:55:36.160

outweigh the negative

0:55:33.200,0:55:37.760

and it's it's worth it you know yeah it

0:55:36.160,0:55:40.799

would be worth it

0:55:37.760,0:55:41.680

i think i don't know call me in a couple

0:55:40.799,0:55:44.480

of years

0:55:41.680,0:55:45.760

and see you know don't don't don't tell

0:55:44.480,0:55:48.960

us that because we will do it

0:55:45.760,0:55:48.960

we will we'll keep you i mean

0:55:52.400,0:55:55.280

we said this before it's going to happen

0:55:53.920,0:55:56.559

that it's got to it's going to i'm going

0:55:55.280,0:55:57.760

to have to follow where everybody from

0:55:56.559,0:56:00.640

season one because i know

0:55:57.760,0:56:01.040

i know um such an isn't it it's been a

0:56:00.640,0:56:02.799

really

0:56:01.040,0:56:04.079

really good kind of interesting thing i

0:56:02.799,0:56:06.319

don't know if all

0:56:04.079,0:56:08.079

the topics we've got on the list are

0:56:06.319,0:56:10.240

going to be quite as insightful as

0:56:08.079,0:56:11.520

yeah some of these conversations i'm not

0:56:10.240,0:56:13.200

sure but

0:56:11.520,0:56:16.799

well if we have guests that are even

0:56:13.200,0:56:16.799

half as good as jessica's been

0:56:19.119,0:56:22.880

yeah it's been it's been really um kind

0:56:20.960,0:56:24.640

of i want to thank you for being such a

0:56:22.880,0:56:26.079

positive person

0:56:24.640,0:56:27.920

make pretty i think you'll have put

0:56:26.079,0:56:29.200

things in a perspective for more than

0:56:27.920,0:56:31.359

one person 100

0:56:29.200,0:56:32.880

well i'm one and i'm sure there are two

0:56:31.359,0:56:34.640

people there you go

0:56:32.880,0:56:36.400

even if no one else is even less than

0:56:34.640,0:56:38.160

there you go two people you've already

0:56:36.400,0:56:40.000

already done well well i'll just leave

0:56:38.160,0:56:42.880

you with this that um

0:56:40.000,0:56:44.000

infant loss is probably one of the

0:56:42.880,0:56:45.520

hardest things that people

0:56:44.000,0:56:48.079

can go through because you know you

0:56:45.520,0:56:49.440

expect to lose grandparents or parents

0:56:48.079,0:56:50.880

or something but

0:56:49.440,0:56:52.640

you know you never expect to lose your

0:56:50.880,0:56:55.680

kid um but

0:56:52.640,0:56:56.720

if it does happen to somebody like i

0:56:55.680,0:56:58.960

hope you guys you know

0:56:56.720,0:57:00.640

put some resources in there because it's

0:56:58.960,0:57:03.359

a kind of grief that

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