Church is Messy

In this episode of Church Is Messy, Rick Henderson and Svea Merry talk about the wall: a season when faith can feel difficult, God can seem distant, and the things that used to work no longer seem to carry us forward. If you have wondered whether that means something has gone wrong, you are not alone.

Rick and Svea explore the difference between being faithful and trying to control the outcome, why growth does not always feel good, and how the Holy Spirit works beyond what we can accomplish by learning or trying harder. Svea shares how God met her through grief and a later season of doubt. They also offer encouragement for people who are at the wall now, and for those who love someone wrestling with faith: be honest with God, keep trusting, and do not walk through it alone.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• Welcome and an election-day conversation
• You are not alone at the wall
• When growth does not feel good
• God can work for good in hard circumstances
• Letting go of the Jesus we imagined
• Does God intentionally lead us to the wall?
• Faithfulness without controlling the outcome
• Responsible to people, not responsible for them
• Svea’s story: faith through grief
• Depending on the work of the Holy Spirit
• A later season of doubt
• Participation instead of self-reliance
• Endurance, not speed
• What helps when you are at the wall?
• Loving someone who is deconstructing
• Becoming a non-anxious presence
• Hope for what is ahead

In this episode of Church Is Messy, Rick Henderson and Svea Merry answer listener questions about the stages of spiritual formation. How do we grow without comparing ourselves with others? Does returning to a familiar stage mean we are moving backward? And what happens when learning and doing start to feel like a hamster wheel?

After sharing highlights from Ridgefest, they reflect on Naaman’s story and the freedom in Elisha’s words, “Go in peace.” The conversation explores comparison, competition and coveting; the difference between growing in a relationship and mastering a project; and why the wall can become an invitation to deeper integration with Jesus. The goal is becoming more like him, with Jesus as both the map and the destination.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• A small act of generosity
• A bridge episode: your formation questions
• Naaman and the people who help us grow
• Go in peace: when faith feels messy
• Comparing, competing and coveting
• A journey, not a competition
• Desire, envy and what we already have in Christ
• Does revisiting a stage mean moving backward?
• Discovering God in a fresh way
• Getting off the discipleship hamster wheel
• When spiritual practices become another project
• What is the wall?
• Does God lead us to the wall?
• Can the wall happen in any stage?
• The wall, exhaustion and deeper integration
• Putting this framework into practice
• Your questions and looking ahead

In this episode of Church Is Messy, Rick Henderson and Svea Merry explore the doing stage of the spiritual journey. Why do good things if we aren’t trying to earn God’s love? They discuss how serving and acting in love can become a way to participate in God’s work, rather than a way to prove our worth.

Rick shares an unexpected encounter in a park, and Svea offers a practical response to fear and uncertainty: predecide to turn to God, ask for help, and consider how Jesus would respond. They also compare two Rembrandt paintings of Simeon holding the infant Jesus as a picture of the movement from impressive activity toward a deeper relationship with Christ. The conversation turns to the pitfalls of finding our identity in productivity, discerning our next steps with trusted people, and the growth that comes beyond learning and doing.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• Welcome and connecting with God in nature
• The doing stage of the spiritual journey
• Participating in God’s work
• Rick’s encounter in the park
• Making it practical: predecide and pray
• Knowing and doing versus becoming like Jesus
• Being saved from our goodness
• The wall, contemplating and becoming
• Rembrandt’s paintings of Simeon and Jesus
• Seeing the paintings side by side
• Growing a relationship takes time
• The trap of earning God’s favor
• Identity before activity
• Discerning what God is calling us to do
• Looking ahead to the next stages

In this episode of Church Is Messy, Rick Henderson and Svea Merry explore the learning stage of the spiritual journey. They discuss why humility matters, why direction matters more than speed, and why growing in faith involves more than collecting information about God.

Rick and Svea talk about reading Scripture to encounter Jesus and become more like him, including a practical introduction to Lectio Divina. Drawing on the disciples' journey on the road to Emmaus, they consider honest prayer, learning in community, and the patient way Jesus helps people come to understanding. They also offer encouragement for people entering this stage for the first time and for longtime learners who want their knowledge to shape how they live.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• Gratitude and the gym illustration
• Humility and being teachable
• Direction over speed
• The trap of measuring maturity by knowledge
• Information and transformation
• When longtime learners resist change
• Learning as a way of worship
• Reading Scripture to encounter Jesus
• Practicing Lectio Divina
• Next steps and honest prayers
• Learning in community and the Emmaus road
• How Jesus helps people come to understanding
• Encouragement for new learners
• Looking ahead

In this episode of Church Is Messy, Rick Henderson and Svea Merry unpack the discovering stage of the spiritual journey: waking up to the reality that God has been pursuing us all along. Building on Expedition Ready Week 2, they explore Hagar’s encounter in the desert and Jesus’ conversation with the woman at the well, where honesty about the past meets grace, dignity, and the promise of living water.

Rick and Svea discuss what this means for people who are curious or skeptical, for believers who are still discovering more of God’s goodness, and for anyone hoping a friend will come to faith. They talk about sharing what convinced us without trying to force the outcome, moving from early excitement toward learning, and remembering the joy of our own story. The conversation closes with a call to deep Christian community that keeps making room for friendships beyond the church.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• Welcome, video podcast, and Banff stories
• Discovering that God is pursuing us
• Would you rather?
• Hagar and the woman at the well
• Truth, grace, and living water
• Discovery throughout a lifetime of faith
• Encouragement for curious and skeptical people
• Sharing faith without forcing an outcome
• Moving from discovering to learning
• Remembering our first love
• Community without a cocoon
• Looking ahead to the learning phase

Technical note: Due to multiple technical difficulties, the video version of this week’s episode is unavailable. We expect the video podcast to premiere with next week’s episode. The audio version is available as usual.

In this episode, Rick and Svea launch the new Expedition Ready series by introducing a framework for the spiritual journey. The goal is not to create a formula, ladder, or grading system for faith, but to offer a map that helps people understand how growth with Jesus often unfolds over time. The journey moves through stages of discovering, learning, doing, contemplating, becoming, and loving, with “the wall” marking a significant season of deeper wrestling and growth.

They talk about the “ghost rules” people can absorb in church culture—like feeling pressure to fake maturity or appear more put together than they really are—and why authentic spiritual formation requires honesty. Growth is not about managing a Christian image; it is about becoming more like Jesus in ways that reach beneath behavior and into the deeper parts of who we are.

Rick and Svea also spend time on “the wall,” the season when old answers may no longer feel sufficient, God may seem distant, or doubt and disillusionment surface. Rather than seeing that as failure, they describe it as a normal and potentially important part of the journey—an invitation into deeper emotional and spiritual maturity.

From there, the conversation explores what happens on the other side of the wall: allowing Jesus to bring healing to the inner life, gradually becoming the kind of person who reflects His character more naturally, and ultimately growing toward a life increasingly shaped by love for God and others.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• 00:00 Introducing video podcasting & the "Expedition Ready" fall series launch
• 01:30 The goal of becoming like Jesus — and why it can't be reduced to a formula of "right beliefs, right behaviors"
• 03:04 The overlanding metaphor: preparation, maps, and not traveling alone as parallels to the spiritual journey
• 04:32 The six stages as a map, not a scorecard — not levels, not a ladder, but seasons of movement toward maturity
• 06:35 "Ghost rules" in church culture — the pressure to fake it till you make it, and the call to authenticity
• 11:10 Stages 1–3 walkthrough: Discovering (excitement), Learning (being a sponge), and Doing (serving with rocket-fuel growth)
• 14:00 The Wall: burnout, doubt, disillusionment, and the liberating truth that "it's not a you problem, it's an us thing"
• 18:45 Stages 4–5: Contemplating (gospel healing of hurts, coping patterns, and family-of-origin wounds) and Becoming (reflexive Christlikeness vs. effortful behavior)
• 23:55 AI as a metaphor: the danger of "all product, no process" — shortcuts bypass the growth the spiritual journey requires
• 25:41 Stage 6: Loving — the final stage of true sanctification where love motivates everything, and a call to join small groups for the 8-week series

How does a church honor its history without becoming trapped by it?

Following Vision Sunday, Rick and Svea reflect on Autumn Ridge’s nearly 170-year history and the generations of people who have carried the church’s mission forward. While locations, leaders, programs, and methods have changed, one thing has remained at the center: a desire for people to know Jesus.

But a long history brings both gifts and challenges. Rick describes the past as something that can become either a foundation or a landlord. Churches can fall into the ditch of nostalgia, allowing cherished experiences and preferences to dictate the future, or the ditch of amnesia, forgetting the wisdom and faithfulness of those who came before. The goal is to cherish the past without trying to recreate it—and to keep asking whether our methods are still serving our purpose.

Rick and Svea also talk about the courage required to change, experiment, and even fail. A healthy church can let go of methods that once worked, try something new, learn when it doesn’t work, and keep moving forward. That requires knowing clearly who we are, who we’re becoming, and why we exist.

Ultimately, every generation is simply running its leg of the race. The work we do today should honor those who came before us while laying a strong foundation for those who will come next—a church centered on Jesus, committed to spiritual formation, welcoming to people who are curious or skeptical, and prepared to hand the baton forward well.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• 00:00 Intro
• 01:10 Announcing the Video Podcast Launch
• 02:30 Vision Sunday: Annual Reminder of Church Identity
• 04:51 Church History & Founding Pastor Reverend Westcott (1857)
• 08:00 Age Dynamics in Churches (a new concept)
• 13:47 Nostalgia vs. Amnesia: The Two Ditches of Church Longevity
• 19:24 Svea's Marriage Analogy: Different Chapters, Different Beauty
• 25:20 The Grass Valley Group: Locking in on "How" Instead of "Why"
• 35:28 Legacy: What to Leave Behind for the Next Pastor

What if heaven is not somewhere we escape to, but the place where God finally makes all things new?

In the final conversation of The End? series, Rick and Svea unpack the biblical picture of heaven as a renewed creation—heaven coming to earth when Jesus returns. They talk about what happens when a follower of Jesus dies, why Scripture points toward resurrection and restoration rather than an eternal disembodied existence, and how that changes the way we imagine eternity.

They also explore why so many Christians have inherited a picture of heaven that feels disconnected from the physical world, and why a more complete biblical vision gives greater meaning to the ordinary things we do now. Relationships, work, creativity, beauty, justice, care for creation, and service all matter because God cares about His creation and intends to restore it.

Rick and Svea close by asking what this hope means for life today. We can grieve honestly without grieving hopelessly. We can trust that the work we do matters. And we can take eternity seriously—not by trying to predict when Jesus will return, but by trusting Him, following Him, and living now as citizens of the kingdom He promises to fully restore.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• 00:00 Intro
• 02:36 What happens when we die before Jesus returns — different views on the intermediate state ("soul sleep" vs. being with Christ immediately)
• 05:25 Heaven isn't clouds and harps — debunking childhood misconceptions about eternity as endless choir practice
• 07:01 The earth will be renewed, not discarded — the biblical case that heaven comes here, restoring the best of creation
• 11:05 Four views of eschatology — Rick recaps historic premillennialism, amillennialism, postmillennialism, and dispensationalism
• 14:22 Historical roots of a distorted view — how chattel slavery, Gnosticism, and the dispensationalist emphasis on destruction shaped the American church's "just go off to heaven" mindset
• 18:21 What will we actually do in heaven? — feasting, work, creativity, building cities, gardening, and even hunting (plus whether we'll look like ourselves)
• 22:25 Living now as citizens of heaven — why restoring creation matters now, not because we can bring heaven to earth, but because the love of Christ compels us
• 24:58 The "now and not yet" — Rick's sports car analogy for why God prioritizes restoring people first, then creation
• 28:55 Three practical takeaways — grieve honestly but not hopelessly, what you do matters, and take eternity seriously (choose Jesus)

What are we really looking forward to when we think about heaven?

Rick and Svea continue the conversation around The End? by focusing on heaven—not as an escape from this life, but as the fulfillment of our deepest longing to be with Jesus. They talk about why even the best things in this life eventually come to an end, why heaven is ultimately about who is there more than what the place is like, and how growing in our relationship with Jesus now can deepen our capacity to enjoy Him forever.

The conversation also turns toward suffering and hope. The gospel doesn’t ask us to minimize pain, tidy up grief, or pretend difficult circumstances aren’t real. Instead, it allows us to face suffering honestly while remembering that suffering is not the final chapter. Sometimes Christian community means sitting with someone in the mess—and helping them see the shore when the fog is too thick for them to see it themselves.

Rick and Svea close by exploring how we grow our delight in Jesus through knowing Him more deeply, practicing His presence, and living in meaningful relationships with others. In the process, they discover that the conversation naturally lands on Autumn Ridge’s framework for spiritual formation: knowledge, practices, and relationships.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• 01:40 — Book recommendation: Revelation for the Rest of Us by Scott McKnight
• 02:45 — What are you looking forward to? (Rick & Svea share personal answers)
• 04:21 — Vacation grief and the weight of hope in temporary things
• 06:36 — Sabbath rest, Joel Lawrence, and the rest we were made for
• 07:41 — Jesus is the answer, not the place (heaven as being with Him)
• 12:00 — Imagining a day with Jesus physically present
• 13:57 — Will heaven be boring? Meaningful responsibility without toil
• 17:07 — Suffering, escapism, and the gospel's honest approach to pain
• 27:05 — How to grow your capacity for enjoying Jesus (spiritual practices, community, and the formation framework)

Trying to figure out exactly when Jesus will return can be fascinating—but it can also distract us from the kind of people Jesus is calling us to become right now.

In this episode of Church Is Messy, Rick and Svea continue the conversation from Autumn Ridge’s series on the end times. They reflect on church cultures that emphasized decoding prophecy, predicting the rapture, and connecting current events to biblical timelines—and contrast that approach with a simpler question: What does it look like to live faithfully if we really believe Jesus is coming back?

Rick and Svea discuss why people are drawn to certainty and secret knowledge, the recurring biblical pattern of self-rule, power, and control, and the danger of combining faith with pursuits of military, economic, cultural, national, or ethnic dominance.

Instead, followers of Jesus are called to a very different way of life: motivated by the love of Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit, and lived out within the local church.

They also explore how Christian community helps us face fear, suffering, and uncertainty. When life becomes difficult—or even when our worst-case scenario happens—we need people who can remind us what is true, encourage us, and sometimes even “loan” us their courage and faith.

Ultimately, the church most prepared for Jesus’ return isn’t the church that has the timeline figured out. It’s the church that looks most like Jesus before he returns.

Topics discussed in this episode:

• 00:00 — Intro and personal updates (Svea recording with strep throat)
• 01:00 — Growing up in end-times prediction culture and family members trying to predict the rapture
• 02:03 — Rick's youth group experiences: "rapture practice" and decoding Revelation as Apache helicopters
• 03:25 — The human desire to predict the end: Gnosticism, secret knowledge, and conspiracy theories
• 05:00 — Don't fight about end times — land wherever you land, but the result should be faithfulness, love, and encouragement
• 08:25 — The wisdom of not knowing when Jesus returns (the "just-in-time husband" analogy with his wife's trip)
• 10:52 — Recognizing patterns: the "golden circle" of self-rule, power/control, and military/economic/cultural might — with religion, nationalism, and ethnicity as superchargers
• 15:11 — The church's golden circle: Christ's love (why), Spirit-filled life (how), local church community (what)
• 18:32 — Perfect love casting out fear: how community diffuses fear, shame, and dread around end-times topics
• 25:50 — "What if the worst happens?" — trusting Jesus remains King, and borrowing courage from church community