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Episode Title

The Surprising Connection Between Online Views and Church Growth

Episode Description

Matt and Jake dive into The Unstuck Group's Q3 2025 report analyzing 252 churches to uncover surprising connections between worship style, online streaming, and church growth. Discover why declining churches juggle multiple worship styles, how online views predict growth, and why the cost barrier for quality streaming has never been lower.

Key Takeaways

• 76% of surveyed churches now focus on modern/contemporary worship only
• Churches with multiple worship styles are more likely to be declining
• 96% of churches now offer online services (up from ~20% pre-COVID)
• Online views are a lead indicator for church growth
• 40% of online church viewers are first-time visitors
• The broadcast section is typically the smallest part of AV budgets
• Audio quality matters more than video quality for streaming

Guest/Host Info

Hosts: Jake Gosselin and Matt Woltjer from Churchfront

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction: The Unstuck Group Q3 2025 Report Overview 1:11 76% of Churches Now Offer Only Modern/Contemporary Worship 3:52 Declining Churches Juggle Multiple Worship Styles 6:07 Living in the Tension: Traditional vs. Contemporary 7:42 Excellence in Worship - Both Styles Can Work 10:12 Vision is Essential - Don't Lead What You Don't Believe In 12:02 Your Space Dictates Your Style Limitations 14:09 Contemporary Worship = More Online Engagement 15:51 96% of Churches Now Offer Online Services 17:01 The Cost of Broadcasting Has Decreased Dramatically 19:36 Online Streaming Doesn't Hurt In-Person Attendance 20:47 Online Views as a Lead Indicator for Growth 22:50 40% of Online Viewers are First-Time Visitors 23:07 Audio First - The Key to Quality Streaming

Resources Mentioned

• The Unstuck Group Q3 2025 Report
• ChurchTechToday
• Gitnux
• First Baptist Melbourne (traditional excellence example)
• Elevation Church (contemporary excellence example)
• Rock Harbor Church (historical building renovation example)

Discussion Questions for Church Leaders

1. Does your church currently offer multiple worship styles? What challenges has that created?
2. How can your church pursue unity while honoring different generational preferences?
3. If you're not currently streaming, what barriers are holding you back?
4. How can you improve your online presence as a "front door" for visitors?

Action Steps

1. Review your church's online metrics - are views increasing or decreasing?
2. Assess whether multiple worship styles are helping or hindering unity
3. Evaluate your streaming setup - is audio quality your top priority?
4. Consider how your building design supports or limits your worship style goals

Social Media Pull Quotes

1. "Churches trying to maintain multiple worship styles are much more likely to be declining. It's not about one style being better—it's about strategic leadership." - Jake & Matt
2. "96% of churches now stream online, and here's the kicker: online views are a lead indicator for growth. If your views are increasing, you're likely a growing church." - Jake & Matt
3. "People will watch bad video with good audio, but they won't watch bad audio with good video. Audio first, always." - Matt Woltjer
4. "Your online stream isn't competing with in-person attendance—it's your front door. 40% of online viewers are first-time visitors researching your church." - Jake Gosselin
5. "The worship wars are over. Now it's time to be one church with one vision, not two churches meeting in the same building." - Jake & Matt

Episode Tags

#ChurchGrowth #WorshipStyle #LiveStreaming #ChurchTechnology #TheUnstuckGroup #ContemporaryWorship #TraditionalWorship #ChurchAV #OnlineChurch #ChurchLeadership

Production Notes

• Include link to The Unstuck Group report in description
• Add affiliate disclosure if applicable
• Consider creating supplementary graphics showing the key statistics
• Potential follow-up: Interview with The Unstuck Group team about their methodology

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Podcast Show Notes: The Future of Church Leadership with Josh Howerton and Chris Kuti

Guests: Josh Howerton (Senior Pastor) and Chris Kuti (Worship Pastor) from LakePoint Church Hosts: Jake Gosselin and Matt Woltjer from Churchfront

Key Topics Discussed AI in Ministry (00:02:15)

• Josh's approach: Uses ChatGPT weekly for sermon prep as a "high-powered research assistant"
• Prompt strategy: "Give me 20 interesting facts about [passage] that are historical, cultural, theological, archeological, linguistic, or biblical that most Christians wouldn't know"
• Chris's usage: Meeting organization, content creation, voice conversations during drives
• Key principle: Use AI as a tool that serves you, don't serve the tool
• Important caveat: Always fact-check AI outputs - they can be wrong up to 17% of the time

Church Technology Criticism (00:58:22)

• The "negative world" concept by Aaron Renn - cultural shift from positive to neutral to negative perception of Christianity
• Common criticisms: "Tax the churches," "Money should go to the poor"
• Biblical response: Only Judas complained about expensive things being used to honor Jesus
• Economic reality: Larger churches often spend lower percentages on tech than smaller churches due to economy of scale
• Technology costs: Modern equipment costs significantly less than in the early 2000s

Social Media Strategy (00:12:38)

• Initial resistance: Reformed background's "theologized cynicism" toward self-promotion
• The turning point: People spend 16-18 hours/week on social media hearing secular perspectives
• "Air war vs. Ground war": Ground war = traditional discipleship, Air war = cultural engagement
• Digital Areopagus: Social media as the modern equivalent of where Paul engaged culture in Athens
• Current following growth: From 20-40k to significantly larger audience through strategic content

Worship Pastor Turnover Crisis (01:26:06)

• Root causes identified:
  • Getting into ministry for wrong reasons (seeking bigger stages/record deals)
  • Senior pastors hiring for talent over pastoral gifting
  • Lack of pastoral development and broader leadership responsibilities
  • "Warm up the crowd" mentality rather than true pastoral partnership
• Solutions proposed:
  • Hire character first, develop competency
  • Give worship pastors genuine pastoral responsibilities
  • Focus on being pastors who happen to use music
  • Create long-term development paths

Hiring and Leadership Development (00:36:29)

• Key principle: "Always bet on leadership" over pure talent
• Character evaluation: Look at family life as indicator of leadership capacity
• "Hire slow, fire fast" - don't ignore red flags in interviews
• Vision alignment: Ensure worship leaders can come under senior pastor's vision
• Josh's story: Had to fire a worship leader after 5 weeks for vision misalignment

Succession Planning (00:45:13)

• LakePoint's success factors:
  • Outgoing pastor (Steve Stroop) "left campground clean" - addressed problems before transition
  • Incoming pastor honored what came before rather than dismissing it
  • 70% credit to predecessor, 30% to successor for smooth transition
• Key advice for incoming leaders:
  • Honor those who built what you inherited
  • Watch your pace in first year - observe more than you act
  • Win relationships and excel on stage
  • Don't make major changes without building equity first

Staying Humble While Growing (00:52:54)

• Key relationships: Spouse who believes in you but isn't impressed by you
• Hire up: Surround yourself with people more talented than you
• Find joy in others' wins: Move from taking all the shots to giving others opportunities
• Dave Stone's wisdom: "Don't let praise go to your head, don't let criticism go to your heart"
• Josh's perspective: Staying confident is often harder than staying humble

Future Ministry Vision (01:08:27)

• Chris's focus: Leadership pipeline development - never having to post job openings
• Josh's project: "Discipleship at scale" through vertically aligned content delivery
• Core principle: "We're in the disciple business, not the events business"
• Technology integration: Purpose-built app to connect sermon, podcast, reading plans, and groups

Quotable Moments

"If you find yourself on team Judas, get a different team." - Josh on criticizing church spending

"Two visions create division." - Chris on worship pastor alignment

"Don't let praise go to your head and don't let criticism go to your heart." - Dave Stone's advice

"We're not in the events business, we're in the disciple business." - Josh on ministry focus

"The loudest boos come from the cheapest seats." - Josh on handling criticism

Action Items for Church Leaders

1. Experiment with AI as a research and content creation tool while maintaining proper oversight
2. Evaluate your hiring process - prioritize character and leadership potential over pure talent
3. Assess succession planning - are you preparing for healthy transitions?
4. Review social media strategy - consider it as cultural engagement rather than self-promotion
5. Examine technology spending through economy of scale lens rather than raw dollar amounts
6. Develop internal leadership pipelines rather than constantly hiring externally
7. Align all ministry elements toward discipleship rather than just events

Resources Mentioned

• ChatGPT/Grok for AI assistance
• Stream Deck for video production control
• Canon C80 cameras for podcast production
• Aaron Renn's "Negative World" essay
• Apple Maps analogy for leadership transitions

Connect with Guests

• LakePoint Church: [Church website/social media]
• Josh Howerton: [Social media handles]
• Chris Kuti: [Social media handles]

This episode was recorded at LakePoint Church's broadcast studio. Special thanks to Blaine for the viral video content and Carlos for the social media strategy insights mentioned during the conversation.

Podcast Notes - Jesus Image Church Construction Discussion Episode Overview

Jake and Matt discuss Jesus Image Church's impressive $44 million building project in Orlando, featuring traditional Gothic-inspired architecture and innovative tilt-up construction techniques.

Key Discussion Points Traditional Church Architecture Revival

• Jesus Image Church building actually looks like a church (rare in modern construction)
• Gothic architecture elements with arched windows
• Stone facade reminiscent of historical church construction
• Departure from typical strip mall/warehouse church designs

Tilt-Up Construction Technique

• Industrial/commercial construction method adapted for church use
• Process: Pour concrete walls as slabs on ground → Frame windows/openings → Let cure → Use cranes to tilt walls into position
• Much faster than traditional masonry (decades vs. weeks)
• Requires expensive crane equipment but overall more efficient than historical cathedral construction

Project Scale & Phasing

• Phase 1: $28.6 million, 56,000 square feet
• Phase 2: Additional $16 million expansion
• Total Investment: $44+ million
• Smart phased approach allows use of Phase 1 while planning/fundraising for Phase 2
• Simpler sanctuary design in Phase 1, enhanced sanctuary in Phase 2

Jesus Image Church Context

• Known for charismatic, powerful ministry style
• Innovative in ministry approach, now extending to architecture
• Multiple ministries: worship, ministry school, prayer ministry
• Heavy building usage beyond Sunday services justifies investment

Architecture Philosophy Discussion

• Modern churches often designed for easy conversion (school, gym, commercial use)
• Jesus Image building will "never be anything but a church"
• Debate: Cost-effectiveness vs. purpose-built sacred spaces
• Traditional approach: building took centuries, but created lasting landmarks
• Architecture's role in facilitating impactful worship experiences

Budget Reality Check

• $44 million not accessible to most churches
• Equipment costs (cranes) vs. long-term construction savings
• Question of whether traditional design is worth the premium cost
• Comparison to strip mall churches and pragmatic building approaches

Ministry Integration

• Building supports multiple ministry functions
• Architecture chosen to complement their charismatic worship style
• Investment in excellence across all ministry aspects
• Physical space designed to enhance spiritual encounters

Quotes & Notable Moments

Jake: "It's almost got like a gothic architecture look to it with those arched windows."

Matt: "They're not building a lot of our modern church buildings. If the church closed, the building would be quickly taken up by someone else that's not a church... But this is never going to be anything but a church."

Jake: "I think we're missing out on the power of architecture to support and facilitate impactful worship."

Takeaways

• Traditional church architecture is making a comeback in some circles
• Modern construction techniques can make historical designs more feasible
• Phased construction allows ambitious projects without overextending
• Purpose-built worship spaces vs. multi-use flexibility is an ongoing debate
• Architecture can be a ministry tool, not just a practical necessity

Future Content Ideas

• Tech tour of Jesus Image when construction is complete
• Comparison series: Traditional vs. Modern church architecture
• Construction technique deep-dives for church building projects
• Budget-friendly ways to incorporate traditional design elements

Action Items

• Plan potential visit to Jesus Image Church construction site
• Research other churches using similar traditional design approaches
• Investigate cost comparisons between construction methods

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Podcast Episode Notes: Choosing Church Broadcast Audio Systems Episode Overview

Discussion about switching from Logic Pro to other broadcast audio solutions including Waves LV1, Studio One, and Pro Tools for church live streaming applications.

Key Participants

• Jake Gosselin - Host/Audio Expert
• Matt Woltjer - Audio Engineer/Consultant

Main Topics Covered Current Industry Setup

• Most professionals using matrix mix from LV1 systems for broadcast
• Common approach: dedicated matrix send from main front-of-house mix
• Requires ongoing attention to maintain quality

Logic Pro Issues Identified

Primary Problem: Time Drift

• Logic Pro gradually falls behind video stream
• Can drift up to 2+ seconds behind actual video
• Creates major sync issues for live streaming
• Problem appears unique to Logic Pro

Design Limitations

• Logic Pro optimized for studio recording, not live applications
• Apple's development priorities focus on studio use
• Pricing model ($200 for 18+ years) indicates different revenue focus

Alternative DAW Options

Ableton Live & Pro Tools

• No reported time drift issues
• Better suited for live applications
• More reliable for broadcast mixing

Waves LV1 System

• Purpose-built for live mixing
• Hardware controller integration
• Superior plugin processing
• Most expensive but most reliable option

System Integration Challenges

Hardware Requirements

• Allen & Heath SQ: Requires Waves interface cards
• Dante Systems: Need Dante Wave Sound Bridge (~$3,000)
• LV1 Options:
  • Classic (most expensive, full features)
  • One C Compact (budget option, limited processing)
  • Proton Duo (insufficient for full mix)

Critical Decision Factors

Budget Considerations

• LV1 systems: $10,000+ for complete setup
• Additional hardware costs often overlooked
• Integration complexity increases total cost

Staffing Reality Check

• Many churches: 1-2 experienced engineers, 2-3 learning operators
• Common mistake: Experienced on FOH, beginners on broadcast
• Results in expensive equipment producing poor mixes

Fundamental Issues First

• Acoustic treatment more impactful than equipment upgrades
• Proper PA tuning essential before broadcast considerations
• Secondary console improves mix quality only 2-5%
• Room acoustics can transform entire sound

Professional Recommendations

When to Choose Matrix Mix:

• Small to midsize churches
• Limited experienced staff
• Budget constraints
• Desire for consistency and reliability

When to Consider LV1:

• Dedicated broadcast mixing staff
• Sufficient budget for complete system
• Acoustics and PA already optimized
• Need for advanced plugin processing

Questions to Ask Before Upgrading:

1. What specific problems are you solving?
2. Do you have dedicated, experienced broadcast staff?
3. Are fundamental acoustic/PA issues addressed?
4. What's your complete system budget?
5. How complex is your current audio routing?

Real-World Case Study

Recent consultation example:

• Church requesting lighting upgrades without understanding lighting theory
• Eight BLX wireless systems failing across multiple rooms
• Recommended: Learn fundamentals before spending money
• Upgrade to antenna-capable systems for multi-room use

Key Takeaways

Equipment Isn't Always the Answer

• Master current equipment before upgrading
• Address fundamental issues (acoustics, tuning) first
• Proper operation often more important than specific hardware

Context is Critical

• Every church situation is unique
• Professional consultation recommended
• Holistic system assessment necessary
• Strategic upgrade planning prevents expensive mistakes

Success Factors

• Experienced operation
• Proper implementation
• Fundamental acoustic treatment
• Realistic budget and expectations

Action Items for Listeners

1. Assess current system holistically before planning upgrades
2. Prioritize acoustic treatment and PA tuning
3. Evaluate staff experience and availability
4. Consider professional consultation for complex decisions
5. Focus on mastering current equipment capabilities

Resources Mentioned

• Church Front premium membership for professional consultation
• Professional coaching calls available
• Community recommendations for Studio One and Pro Tools

Next Steps for Churches

• Evaluate specific broadcast mixing challenges
• Consider matrix mix optimization before new systems
• Plan strategic upgrade path with professional guidance
• Address fundamental issues before equipment purchases

Episode Duration: ~10 minutes Topic: Church Audio Technology Audience: Church technical teams, audio engineers, ministry leaders

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Podcast Episode Notes: Church Live Streaming Reality Check Episode Overview

Matt and Jake react to Pro Church Tools' recent discussion about the current state of online church, diving deep into questions about quality, purpose, and audience for church live streaming in 2025.

Key Topics Covered The Quality vs. Accessibility Debate

• Pro Church Tools' Position: High-quality livestreams require dedicated mixing boards and professional expertise that most churches lack
• Matt & Jake's Pushback: 85-95% quality is achievable with proper fundamentals and doesn't require professional-level resources
• The Real Issue: Sometimes poor livestream quality stems from poor source material (musicianship, room acoustics)

The Hard Truth About Audio Quality

• Matt's Honest Take: "Your livestream mix is not good because your musicians are not good"
• The Growth Mindset: Every great musician started as a not-so-great musician
• Foundation First: Master musicianship, room acoustics, and basic mixing before investing in expensive gear

Who's Actually Watching Your Stream?

• Key Statistic: 35% of online church attenders are retirement age (12 points above average)
• Implications for Ministry: Need to consider accessibility, content relevance, and viewing habits
• Snowbird Effect: Many older viewers are traveling members staying connected to home church

The Purpose Question

What are we streaming for?

• Marketing tool for church visitors
• Connection for homebound members
• Seasonal/traveling member engagement
• Accessibility for those who can't attend in person

Production Philosophy

• Start with fundamentals: Musicianship, room acoustics, basic mixing skills, proper lighting
• Avoid the gear trap: Don't buy expensive equipment without mastering the basics
• Quality target: Aim for "good enough" that serves your actual audience, not "perfect" that impresses other tech people

Notable Quotes

Jake: "You can compress a jackhammer, but it's still going to sound like a jackhammer."

Matt: "If you're the sound guy trying to get an online mix that sounds good from a band that doesn't sound good in house, then good luck."

Jake: "There's something magical that happens when you're in person in the room at worship every Sunday."

Matt: "The top four pages on church websites are always: homepage, about us, staff, and livestream."

Action Items for Churches

1. Audit your fundamentals before investing in new gear
2. Understand your actual livestream audience (hint: it might be older than you think)
3. Optimize for accessibility - text size, audio levels, clear announcements
4. Invest in musical training for your team
5. Remember the goal: Complement, don't compete with, in-person worship

Tools & Resources Mentioned

• Waves Real Tune plugin for pitch correction
• Importance of proper room acoustics
• Front-of-house mixing consoles for dual-purpose mixing
• Website analytics for understanding visitor behavior

Discussion Questions

• Who is your church's livestream actually serving?
• Are you starting with the right foundational skills?
• How do you balance quality aspirations with realistic resource constraints?
• What role should livestreaming play in your overall ministry strategy?

Related Topics for Future Episodes

• Room acoustics basics for churches
• Building a volunteer tech team
• Church website optimization
• Generational differences in worship preferences
• Cost-effective lighting solutions for churches

This episode was a reaction to Pro Church Tools' video about online church. While we respectfully disagree on some technical points, we appreciate Brady and Alex for raising these important strategic questions about church technology.