CoachCast by IECL

Jonathan or Jono Srikanthan, is the Atlassian Foundation Director and the co-founder of Young Change Agents, a social enterprise aimed at helping our young people see problems as opportunities. Jono gets excited about being able to make a positive change in his community and leading, motivating and empowering others to do the same in their community.

Jono has managed two iconic Australia Foundations, Qantas and Atlassian, where he has had the opportunity to harness business resources for the betterment of society. Jono's focus areas include social innovation, corporate foundations, social enterprise, skilled volunteering, people leadership, organisational & career coaching. 

In this episode, Jonathan Srikanthan, Atlassian Foundation Director talks about all things Atlassian, 1% pledge initiative, giving back to the community, tips for aspiring foundation managers and pro-bono coaching to the non-for-profit sector. Jonathan shares insights about his coach training with IECL and how coaching capacity can contribute to and have impact in our communities. It's a great episode with lots of gold nuggets. Please note this episode was recorded in early 2020 before the pandemic. 

Renee:
So Jono, what can we as coaches or can organizations in general learn from the All Black psyche? You're a fan. 

Jono:
I was surprised you put this question in here actually because for Christmas, I got given a book called Legacy and I highly recommend it. I'm only halfway through it mind you, which talks about what businesses can learn from the All Blacks. And the first chapter really stood out to me and the chapter is called Sweeping the Shed. So there's a tradition in the All Blacks that the top player of the game or the player of the match has the responsibility at the end of the game after all the work and the lockers are down, when people have changed and they go out that they have to clean it up, they have to pretty much sweep it out sort of thing. And it's a tradition that's been going for a while now. And the idea there is to maintain or bring humility back into the role back into players. To think that no one person is bigger than the team and bigger than the game. And I think that's something that we as coaches and we as organizations, businesses could really learn and the people we're serving and the people and the team that we're part of is actually bigger than us. And so humility, I think, is something that I'm learning a lot in my roles but as a coach and in Atlassian, the organization I'm working for. 

Renee:
And speaking of Atlassian. What's it really like to work at Atlassian? 

Jono:
You should know, you guys are based in the same building that we are. You know about our t-shirts and you know about the dress code that we have, but that's really very peripheral. It is probably one of the most remarkable companies I've ever worked for. The values are at the core of everything that we do. There's five values that govern it. Two of it has got some pretty interesting language in there, but it really hits home about what we are and what we're trying to do. And for me that was the first thing that I really learned about the organization and then still do very much value. It's a highly innovative, very strong culture in what we do, but at the heart of it, there's a real genuine focus on giving back. And I'm speaking in the context of working in the foundation, the charitable side of Atlassian, it is very generous in terms of what they do. And I'll talk a little bit more about it as we progress. 

Renee:
So can we dig into that now? You're the Foundation Director of Atlassian Foundation, what does the foundation do? What are some of the activities and that generosity, what does that look like? 

Jono:
Yeah, so we've got three main focus areas and what we work in. It is about, essentially the best way of summing it up is about bringing out the best in education with the young people, bringing out the best in business and bringing out the best in our people, or Atlassians. In the education space, we've got a goal to really get behind and support innovative education practices that's really going to scale and reach millions and millions of people. And we're working with some really awesome non-profits around the world. And to achieve that Pledge 1% is the focus of number two. And I'll share a little bit about that in a minute, but essentially it is about growing the Pledge 1% model in different businesses. And then finally the area that I am probably most passionate about, an area that I look after is bringing out the best in our people. So as Atlassians, as employees, our people are given five days a year to volunteer, to give back, to make a difference in the communities that we live. So it is about how can I engage them and how can I motivate them and how can, and I say I but it's actually our team. How can we do those things to get the best out of them, giving back to their community that they live in. 

Renee:
And on 1% Pledge, that's not an Atlassian initiative, it was something that was established before Atlassian took that up. Could you tell me a little bit more about that? 

Jono:
It's actually one of my favourite stories I love to tell because that's one of the best examples of generosity. So I think Salesforce pioneered it initially with their 1-1-1 model. And the idea is to essentially give back 1% of your profits, your employee time, products, and so on. How it came about in Atlassian is actually, again, it's really lovely story. Scott and Mike, our two founders, early on when they set up Atlassian wanted to do something impactful and meaningful but like any new business owner starter, you just don't have time. And so what they did was they took, they made a decision to give away 1% of the equity in the company. So this is going back 2002, 2003, 2004, around that time when the company was worth nothing. It probably even, I think that time were in 10,000 credit card debt or something like that. They made the decision to give away 1% and it was a pretty easy decision to do back then.

But if you fast forward it to now the company is worth, I don't know, 35 billion US dollars. It's a significant amount. So that 1% to give away it would be a lot more difficult, especially now that it's a publicly traded company, you've got a whole bunch of regulations and so on like that. And so that's a model that really worked well for us, worked well for Salesforce and a number of other organizations. And so what we did was we got together with Salesforce and a few other organizations and actually set up a non-profit really in the US whose sole focus is to grow that Pledge 1% model in other startups is to get that model working in startups, early stage companies.

And so far, we've got about 10,000 organizations that have taken the pledge, which is amazing. And in Australia, we're sitting at about, I think about 1300 that have taken the pledge, which is again, it's reflective of the ecosystem that we have here but again it's amazing. And what we want to do is see that growing, we want to see people, organizations activating those pledges, acting on those pledges. And for anybody listening, who has a small business with their own, we'd really encourage you to take it. It's really simple. It's just a commitment that you make online. You are committing to essentially give away either, and I would say either and or 1% of your equity, your profit, your employee time and, or your products. So it's either or. A lot of early stage companies start with just employee time, because it is the easiest thing to get started on. So that's the idea behind Pledge 1%. 

Renee:
Thank you for sharing that. It sounds like a simple thing to wrap your head around and something that you can apply, as you say, from day one regardless of business size. So you have an incredible experience and background in managing two very iconic Australia foundations. So you've talked a little bit about Atlassian Foundation, but you also managed Qantas foundation previously. And in both those roles, you're responsible for leveraging business resources for the betterment of society. Just some of those things you're just referring to. So I know there must be some of our listeners out there that are very keen to get some tips or some learnings from you in terms of the experience that you've had. And particularly I'm thinking of those people that, maybe aspiring foundation managers or looking to take a leading role in foundation type work. So what tips or learnings could you share with them? 

Jono:
Sure. Yeah, it's a question that I get asked a lot and I've narrowed it down to a few things that I would really say. The first thing is don't or at least initially don't do any formal study in the process. So a lot of the questions I get asked is Oh, look, I'm thinking of going and studying this qualification and impact work at this university and devoting two, three years of my life to do that. I would say don't do that initially, because what we're finding is the people that are coming out of these courses have got fantastic theoretical knowledge, but very little experience in applying that in the workforce in the real world. So my advice is get in and just volunteer, volunteer in the organization that you're working in. And a lot of people that I do talk to people in corporates that want to move into these sorts of roles within their corporate.

So my advice is first volunteer your way in. Get in there, get to know the foundation of the CSR department, learn about it, get stuck in. There's always opportunities to be involved. And then as you start developing, and as you start entering that space, then probably look at some formal study in that space. But really first thing is you want to really, really understand the organization. I would also say focus on the transferable skills that you have rather than the actual qualification. So much of what we do and the peers in the space don't wake up and go, we're going to be a foundation manager. We usually come at it from different backgrounds. I've come at it from a public service/HR/project management/type roles. And it's those skills that you develop in those roles that you can transfer.

And to give you an example, I've just hired three people in the last year and a bit into the foundation Atlassian. And none of them had foundation specific experience, never studied this formally, but they had amazing transferable skills that we needed. So for example, about three months ago, hired a guy that used to work with us at Atlassian, a software developer but had an amazing video and comms skills. And that was something that we needed. And now he's our comms person developing to be a foundation manager sort of thing. So the second thing I'd say is focus on transferable skills and really work on those. And the final thing I would say is network like crazy. Australia is really, really small in this space. We're not as advanced as the US and Europe are in the CSR and foundation space.

So there's very few opportunities that come up like this. And so a lot of opportunities that do come up usually happen within sort of informal networks. So my advice is use the channels that are available like LinkedIn, and so on like that, and reach out to organizations that you admire. I think that's really important. You do target organizations that you admire and then reach out to the foundation managers there, the CSR people there to connect for coffee and just pick their brains and do it in a genuine way, not to get a job out of it, but to really learn and to understand the organization. 

Renee:
And on the flip side for the organizations who are considering setting up their own foundation, you've mentioned 1% Pledge. Is there any other tips or advice you'd be giving to organizations looking to do something similar? 

Jono:
Absolutely. The first thing that you want to consider when you're setting up a foundation is don't. And I say that, don't, it's because a lot of people are almost enamoured with this idea of actually having a foundation and doing some good out of it, but really the structure tends to be quite restrictive depending on what you are trying to do. So the first thing I would really advise is knowing what you are passionate about, knowing the why behind what you're trying to do. If you can figure that out as an individual or as an organization, then the structure follows. And we see it through Pledge 1%, there's very few that we see going down that line of setting up private foundations. Generally private foundations are really, really good if you've got a sizeable corpus that you're going to be, I guess, stewarding.

But generally when you're starting out, I would recommend just figuring  out what you want to do. Classic example, we have people that follow their passion and generally do a lot of their giving, a lot of their volunteering through organizations that they support. And they find that a lot easier than actually going down the route of setting up foundations, which is really expensive setting up to managing to maintaining and so on. It takes a lot of money to do that.   

Renee:
As your own giving back, you provide pro bono coaching to the non-for-profit sector yourself. Could you share how this works for you and a couple of examples of work that you do in that space? 

Jono:
Sure. Yep. So generally the coaching that I do for the sector that comes out of my volunteering. So we get five days a year to volunteer. And essentially for me, where I feel I could add the biggest value with my skillset is around coaching in the sector. And there's a couple of areas that I focus on. First, as we mentioned, is just people trying to break into the sector. And I shared a little bit about that and some of the advice and some of the work I do there, but then secondly, it is with non-profits and non-profits who are learning or starting out and wanting advice, thinking through how they approach organizations, corporates for funding and so on like that. So we do a lot of work around that and not necessarily telling them what to do, but more about getting them to think through their ask, getting them to think through their strategies and so on like that.

There is a bit of work that I do around mentoring young kids in the space. Again, these are young kids just trying to find their purpose in life, trying to find the next steps. And actually it's not even just young people, it's everybody at every stage in life. And there's a lot of people in their twilight of their careers that are done the deed in corporate Australia or have made their mark in their career and now want to move into something a bit more meaningful. And those are some of the most fulfilling conversations that I do have because I ended up walking away learning a lot more about my career journey as you help other people through theirs. 

Renee:
And what types of coaching do you do? There's that pro bono coaching in the not-for-profit sector, but I'm sure there's other ways that you're coaching at this present time. 

Jono:
So one of the main reasons I got involved with IECL was to develop my coaching within Atlassian. There's actually two reasons, one was I wanted to develop my coaching skills within Atlassian. And secondly, I wanted to take all this coaching that I was doing and then formalize it in some way and what better way to do it than actually have some qualification around it. And so to answer your question, I'm doing a lot more within the company itself. So I have a small team of six people that I manage. And a lot of the conversations is now coaching conversations as opposed to something that is a lot more directive. And that's great because you start to see people take ownership of the solutions and ownership of their own journey and their own projects that they're working on, their own tasks and so on like that. And rather than relying on me to tell them what to do.

But also within Atlassian, broader than my team, Atlassian, it's a really interesting place at the moment. We are growing incredibly fast. There's a lot of technical people who are amazing at their craft, but being moved into team lead type roles. And without actually much formal training or anything in that, which, when you're moving so fast you don't get that opportunity. So to actually have people like coaches to come alongside them and talk them through their management styles and their career journey and then how they get the best out of their team is, I find again, really fulfilling and that's something that's happening a lot off. And I think there's a lot of value in coaching and Atlassian's been trained in that coaching technique to get out of. So that's kind of my main ways I'm doing it internally within Atlassian.

There was one other thing actually, if I can add, there's a lot of ask around and it's not just Atlassian. And I'm seeing that around corporate Australia, around employees finding their purpose. And I say a typical conversation goes like this with an employee or someone within the sector is, "I love my job, I love my team, I love what we're doing, I love what we're achieving, but I still have a sense or a lack of purpose in my life. And can you help me get a job at a non-profit? Because I think if I work at a non-profit and I'm doing some social good there I'll have that sense of purpose."

And really what happens in these coaching conversations is as we explore it further, the individual then starts to realize, Hey, actually, I can find that fulfilment in my role. I can find it in the tasks that I'm doing. It's just that flip in terms of their focus, in terms of how they perceive what social impact really is and their role. And that's been exciting seeing that happening within the company, seeing that happening outside the company. 

Renee:
Can I go back to something you mentioned a moment ago and explore it a little bit further. You were talking about what sounded very much to me like a coaching approach to leading. And when you're talking about that transition that someone's making into leading a team for the first time and a coach's role in siting alongside them to help them step into that. But doing that in the context of fast pace and high growth, it reminds me of something that I watched recently, which was the previous CEO of LinkedIn talking about, at that time of high growth, you have to change style. You have to change tactics, there's literally no time to be with everybody all of the time and providing direction, guidance training. So you must take a different approach. And I'd love to explore that a little further with you in terms of how you see that coaching approach to say, leading a team, enabling organizations like Atlassian to grow and to do that fast. 

Jono:
I think there's two things that really stand out. I think the first one is, you've got to know that when you hire you're hiring the right people that have the potential to execute. That's actually get shit done really, really fast. That's the first one. Secondly, I think it's really important to have trust in the people that you hire, that when you do give them the task ahead, that they can execute on it. And when you've got those two things going for you, your role as a coach just becomes that much faster, much, much easier. So your conversation is really around, okay, look, what are we going to focus on today? What's your concerns? And then that becomes a conversation. So the person that you're coaching then actually brings the agenda to you and it becomes a more of a process around self discovery.  And that could happen very fast. It's one of the things I learned, one of the memorable thing I learned when I did the IECL coach is how to coach on the run, how to coach on the fly sort of thing.

And so much of these conversations just happen while you're at the water cooler or when you're on a quick VC. And it's just really about asking the right questions. As soon as you can ask the right questions, you can just see the light bulb happening, but you can't do that. If you haven't got the trust built with that person. And if you don't hire the right people into the role, and that's just something that we see in these fast-growing companies happening a lot. There's so much effort put into hiring the right people like Atlassian interviews. Most people go through about six to eight interviews before they get the role. It's a lot of hoops to jump, but it's to ensure that we get the right people. And it's also ensure that the people that we get actually want to come and work with us. We put a lot of effort into that. And then secondly, we put a lot of effort into building trust in the teams that we do. And I think those are two real foundational things. 

Renee:
You've mentioned a couple of times, your IECL coach training, and you are part of the IECL alumni. What drew you to coach training in the first place?

Jono:
Yeah, I think I mentioned if before. I think two things, I generally had a need to adopt a better way of leading my team, the six people. That was beyond being directive. That was the first real goal. Secondly, I'd really wanted to formalize a lot of what I do in an informal capacity within Atlassian or outside of the sector. And so to have some qualifications, some methodology, really helped. And it really gave me something to hook it on to. And then also just having a community around me that is supportive, that is encouraging, that is almost in the same boat really helps. And I think they're the main things that really did. And actually you guys being based in my building having to jump in a lift and go down a few floors really, really helped. 

Renee:
It's handy. What research did you do beforehand to determine whether IECL was the right place, there was a few options out there and aside from us being in the right building. 

Jono:
That played a small part. Look, to be honest, not much, but a lot of what I got was the alumni people that I was talking to had done the level one, the level two, and they were the best advocates, I think, IECL actually had, it's like, Jono you're doing this already at Atlassian, you're doing this externally, go get certified, go get some formal structure into it. To be honest, I didn't really look anywhere, I just listened to some of the people that crossed my part that were recommending me to do it. And just that word of mouth was probably stronger, that recommendation through alumni was lot stronger than anything else that I really saw. 

Renee:
And you've, as you said, undertaken your coach training and you're applying it in a range of ways. How would you now describe your coaching style? What's it evolved to at this point? 

Jono:
I honestly don't know that I have a style. I don't. I generally do think I tend to be quiet, I've learned to listen more. And that's something that my wife is really appreciative of, but people just really generally appreciate it, that you can actually sit and listen. And so that's something that I've learnt a lot, that I've practice a lot to do. I'm being less and less directive. And I'm stunned to realize sometimes, actually most of the time people have it within themselves to actually find the solution and actually run with it themselves. And it's just asking the right questions at the right time is what makes the difference. So look, I don't have a style, I think the style sometimes needs to change with individuals. But, no, generally I don't have one. 

Renee:
And what about us we look forward the future, what are you aspiring to do in particularly in relation to your coaching? How are you seeing that you might be coaching in the future? Is it any different? 

Jono:
Yes and no. I'd like to do more in the sector. I really would like to see a lot more people moving into this space. I really would like, especially Pledge 1%, I'd love to see a lot more organizations moving into the giving back space. There's opportunities there, within Atlassian as well within our team we're exploring this concept of self-directed volunteering. And this is where teams come together. They form together around a social cause around an area that's really passionate. And then they go out and they do something in that space, usually around high school volunteering. And I think there's opportunities there for people in the coaching space to really come alongside them and actually provide the support and almost ask the right questions, sort of thing, to get them going. So I think that's probably something that's got me really excited about 2020. How can we grow? Self-directed social impact within Atlassian. It would be awesome to see that happening within the broader community as well. 

Renee:
What do you see your role is in that? Would you like to be working with one of the teams or a few of the teams, or do you see yourself more as the coordinator of the efforts? 

Jono:
Look, when you work at Atlassian, the first thing you learn is whatever you do, it's got to scale. And so the challenge that we have here is how do you take something that is so personal and so almost a one-on-one interaction and how do you scale that. Which might involve a technology component or something to it. And that's where I'd really like to play and be involved in and explore. How can this go beyond just Jono or beyond the few people that are coaching at Atlassian, how can it scale and how can people be self-empowered to ask those questions themselves so they can get better performance. 

Renee:
Probably in the right place to find a technology part of the solution. 

Jono:
Probably. 

Renee:
When I was doing the research and preparing for our conversation today, I was reading, which anybody could, on your LinkedIn profile that said that the two things that get you really excited in life and we're getting a sense of that in terms of the stories you're sharing and the experience you have. We've explored a bit today, but the first being able to make positive change in your community and the second being able to lead and motivate and empower others to do the same. So I'm curious with everything that's going on, if we even just think locally for a moment, Australia's experienced drought and fire and rain and everything else, things coming our way, Coronavirus and so forth in the region. What advice would you give to others about making positive change happen in their community? And considering that, particularly in times like this, where people want to give back, they want to do more, they want to be part of solutions and be active. How do they become more active or how do they make choices around that? 

Jono:
It's nothing like the last couple of months to really highlight that internally. When the bush fires hit, we had so many people putting their hands up and not just within Australia, our team members in some of the remotest part of the world saying Jono what can we do? How can we fly in and go and help? People just generally want to do stuff because they feel compelled, they feel the pain. My advice is start where you're at. What's in your hand and what can you do with what's in your hand? And for some people that might be as simple as, look, I don't have much time, I've got money, I can give money. That's the thing that they could do. Other people it's like, okay, I don't have money, but I've got the time and I've got these skillsets. That's where I can sort of help.

So I would really start by saying, look, let's look at what's in your hand, let's look at what the needs are out there. There's an element also of just being realistic. There's some things you feel the pain but you can't always do things. So acknowledge that and believe that, sometimes you just can't do it, but there are people out there that can, there are in better positions to do that and look at how can you support those. And a really crude example is I see a lot of people wanting to set up their own private foundations and things like that to start doing things in the community.

Well, we've got 600,000 non-profits in Australia. Do we need another non-profit to do that? Look, is there someone that you could really get behind and champion and offer your skills and money to do that? So that's where I would encourage people to start. I would encourage people to look beyond the emotion because emotions will come and they will die down. And it's after the emotion dies down, that's where I really feel a lot of the work really needs to start. 

Renee:
So Jono we'll come to the end of our conversation now. Thank you so much. I mean, we've touched on everything from the All Blacks through to foundation tips in your experience, aspiring foundation managers, also looking at pro bono coaching services and not-for-profits sector. So many things we've talked about, but what I'm getting a strong sense of, and I'm sure our listeners are, is in particular how skill coaching capability can contribute and have impact in our communities. I'm sure it's getting me thinking, it's getting a lot of our listeners thinking about what they might be doing differently in the future and prompting organizations to think about thing like 1% Pledge and other efforts as well. Thank you. It's been a fascinating conversation and I've really enjoyed having you as our guest today. 

Jono:
Thanks Renee. 

A Chartered Accountant by training, Clint specialised in Corporate Insolvency with KPMG before diversifying into a progression of challenging executive roles in industry. After leading the performance turnaround of Freemans Insurance Services and setting them back on a path of sustainable growth, he joined Cricket Victoria. Over a 5-year tenure as CFO&COO, Clint oversaw the organisation's contemporary rebrand, reinvigorated its commercial platform and strengthened financial and governance processes, ensuring the ongoing success of one of Australia's oldest and most respected sporting institutions.

In 2011 Clint established Cricket Victoria's pioneering Twenty20 Big Bash League club, the Melbourne Stars. In October last year he was appointed to his current position as CEO and MD of GrowthOps - a holding company combining the complementary capabilities of its creative and digital agencies with the coaching and leader development services provided through IECL. 

In this rare interview Clint Cooper shares his leadership journey over the last decade from building a Club and supporter base as the first CEO of the Melbourne Stars Cricket Club, to his current role leading the turnaround of recently delisted company GrowthOps Limited.

At the Stars he created an organisation from start-up to become one of the largest Clubs in the league. Over ten years he led an organisation in the very high-pressured, high-profile world of competitive sport through a deep commitment to the principles of fairness, honesty, camaraderie and the building of an environment where players and administrators alike loved to come work. 

In October 2020, after a short break he took on his role at GrowthOps and the challenge of turning around a company already under stress through a period of restructure and the impact of the Pandemic. In the space of a year he successfully steered the company of 400 people across six countries through an environment of considerable uncertainty to safer ground, largely from the confines of a small bedroom in suburban Melbourne. While extraordinarily challenging both physically and mentally, these circumstances allowed Clint to open his mind to what the actual opportunity of leadership could be when stripped to its core. Clint talks openly about the challenges and opportunities presented to him, what he has learned about himself and about leadership in this time, and the newfound levels of optimism and potential this has instilled in him for this next era of growth.

Gabrielle Schroder:
Clint, welcome to CoachCast by IECL. I must say it's a great pleasure to have you here, face-to-face after many months of lockdown in Victoria. I hope you're enjoying your time in Sydney.

Clint Cooper:
I certainly am. And thanks very much for inviting me into this wonderful podcast.

Gabrielle Schroder:
Wonderful. Let's start with defining what leadership means to you. On your LinkedIn profile, you highlight that as an executive leader, you're not just building a business, you're leading a philosophy. Tell us more about that. What is your leadership philosophy?

Clint Cooper:
Very good question. I think it's something that has evolved over time and I feel like it needs to be adaptable to the organisation, the situation you're facing. I think the last 12 months, if we focus in on that, that's been one of the most challenging leadership roles that I've had. And adapting to not only different challenging leadership roles that I've had. And adapting to not only different changes in an organisation and the financial health of an organisation, but really building a culture, I suspect is probably, the most challenging thing of any leadership. But my philosophy is really about people. I think that in any leadership capacity, if you don't have the support, confidence and trust of your people, then you're not really doing your job as a leader. 

I work pretty hard at doing that and instilling that confidence. I think the other real important part is ensuring people, despite how tough things may be, do have fun coming to work. They want to come to work. They want to enjoy the environment and build something together. I certainly have never seen myself as a leader that sits at the top of the tree and demands and commands, but more of a collaborative leader that sits there alongside in the trenches with everybody and really trying to get an outcome. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
Fantastic. And I think we'll touch a little bit on the last 12 months in particular, a little further on in the interview, but I want to start perhaps a little further back in your career. You've had a really stellar career largely in the very hyper competitive world of sport. And there's, I think, an enormous amount that we can learn from that. But if I can get you to cast your mind back to 2011, when you moved from your role as CFO and Chief Operating Officer at Cricket Victoria, to be the first CEO of Melbourne Stars. How did you feel about landing that role? 

Clint Cooper:
I was scared stiff. The way I found out about the role, Gab, was at a board meeting of Cricket Victoria. I had done interviews and the like, and the chairman started the meeting by saying, congratulations, you'll be running the team that we think will play at the MCG. It doesn't have a colour, doesn't have a name and your coach is going to be Greg Shipperd, who ended up being a really great friend of mine. It was daunting, having been a bean counter most of my life and tipping into the sponsorship and commercial world, I was excited, but obviously very daunted by what was about to occur. We didn't have a lot of resources. We didn't have a lot of money, but the first thing that we did was go and find an impressive board, which included Eddie McGuire and John Wiley to name a few. And I think that's where I built that probably false confidence in the first instance, that I had the backing of these two guys that would certainly guide me through what would be a pretty tumultuous couple of years around building a club and building essentially a franchise and a supporter base that was the largest in the competition.

I think 10 years is a long time ago. And I certainly know a lot now about myself and the depth of what you need to go to, to build a club, but a culture not just on field, but off field. Having known cricket for a while and the administrators versus the players, there was that tension and it was always about how do we bring the two together. And that the players were treated equally as our staff and the staff equally as our players. And I think that paid off immensely over the journey for my time there in that, whether you are a social media contact coordinator, you were respected and treated exactly the same as if you were the captain or international recruit that came in. And the players, particularly, really bought into that and saw the club as a family. The players genuinely loved coming back to the family every year to enjoy that next journey together. And we had a lot of fun on the way too. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
I find that absolutely fascinating because in sport it is so competitive. When you think about performance and performance in an organisation, particularly sport, it's very public. On the day it's win or lose, black or white, high stakes often. If you're a losing team that often flows right to the bottom line. How do you create a performance culture in that high stakes context? 

Clint Cooper:
Yeah. Big question to answer. I think players or sports people by their nature, are competitive beasts. They want to be the best. And so the best way to get peak performance is creating an environment or a culture where they're relaxed and they enjoy their time. It's not a task to come to work for them. It's not a task to come to training. It's not a task to do immediate performance. It's actually something they love and enjoy. I think building that comradery and creating an environment, very different to every other club that was at the time. They loved coming to work and win, lose, or draw, they had a good time. 

In such a high pressure game, the hardest thing about being a leader of sports team is you can do everything off the field right. You can get the most sponsors and most attendees, the best marketing, but the moment they walk across that white line, you've got absolutely no control on the outcome, which is extremely hard to stomach. And I spent many a time downstairs in the car park of the MCG doing laps during games. Basically, I just couldn't stand it to be honest. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
You didn't watch the game?

Clint Cooper:
Didn't watch a lot of them, no. Particularly when they got tense. I would be often found roaming the car park by myself. But as an aside, the whole club joined in the celebration and the whole club actually joined in when we didn't win. But the most important thing is, as a club on field and off, we'll put the losses behind us very quickly. And that was led by such an amazing coach that we had that filtered the whole organisation, but being able to share the pain, I think, right across that organisation made us bigger and stronger and more resilient. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
There's the performance on the field, and then there is all that surrounds the game. Often in these high profile organisations you have a risk profile that's quite different to other organisations. I'm going to particularly player behaviour and conduct risk. We've seen over the last little while successive Royal Commissions indicating that there's very little tolerance in the community for misdemeanours and the buck falls squarely on the bard and the executive. Very difficult to manage and control behaviour. Talk to us a little bit about culture and then how you navigate that very tricky situation of supporting an organisation that is managing that risk. 

Clint Cooper:
With a lot of fear, is probably the first answer. But I think people underestimate sports people, particularly...They're exceptional, talented people, they are high performing. They ride the highs and they ride the lows, but on the whole, most of them are very good, genuine, kind-hearted people that know right from wrong. And you end up dealing with the issues by exception, if you can actually create the expectations of what it means to be part of this club, or the organisation at that time. We had Eddie McGuire, who's very well-renowned, outspoken president, extremely influential, and that was a really good guiding stick for the club. Ed has very high public standards for his other affiliation with the Collingwood Football Club. It was almost like, well, we don't want to upset Eddie either as a playing group. That's a bit of a tone, but you need the players to actually buy into what that culture is. 

We did everything we possibly could to ensure that the way that they came into the Stars and the way they exited Stars, whether they exited as a player or retired, was exactly the same. They still have that same connection. And that's largely driven by the playing group and the senior executives of any organisation that sets that tone. Everybody treated fairly, everybody understands what the common goal is. But building the expectations early in any given season and admittedly, reminding players what the expectations were, was a very strong part of our induction process every single year. Cricket for example, there's obviously a lot of anti- corruption issues that surround the game. Ensuring every single year that our education was up to scratch. But you do deal with some high stakes personalities and some large egos, but on the whole, generally in my time, that was pretty good. The lesson I learnt though was pretty early in the piece that Eddie never wanted to read anything on the front paper of the Herald Sun. It didn't matter what time of night that I called him if there was any particular issues, but thankfully I didn't need to do that. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
Yeah. Wonderful. It's definitely a very good way of sharpening the focus, that headline on the front of the paper the next morning, nothing better. Fast track to 2019. And in, I think around June, the Stars and Renegades merge operations under Cricket Victoria, and you received a great deal of praise for the legacy that you had built and that you had left at the time, and I'm imagining that you were looking forward to a decent break after 10 years. And then of course, you get offered this role at GrowthOps. I'm interested to hear firstly, what compelled you to take on that role?

Clint Cooper:
I was enjoying a good break. In that sports game, whilst the games only go for six to eight weeks during a season it's pretty full on for 12 months of the year. It was nice to let the hair down a bit, reacquaint myself with my family. From the outset, I was interested in staying sport. There's something about sport and leadership and management that you struggle to find in any other... I've been an accountant, I've been at an accounting firm, you don't get that passion that you do in a sports club. I was keen, but I also thought, well, where I am now, the skillsets that I've developed and the opportunities that I've been presented, there's a bigger world out there. I was open to a lot more opportunities than just closing in on sport, not to say I wouldn't go back to sport at some point in the future.

This job appealed initially because it was a startup. For me, it sounded like there was, based on the representations that were made to me at the time, it was a startup, there was lots of opportunity for this business to grow. They were looking for somebody that can build a culture, who's interested in commercials, who wants to get their hands dirty. I thought, why not? Didn't know a lot about the industries that we currently are in, but you never say no to an opportunity because you don't know everything about it. I think they best thing coming into this role is, I probably went back to my sweet spot of accounting and finance and insolvency background early on in the couple of months here at GrowthOps. But it was a job that appealed on the basis that there was a lot of variety and things that I could learn and continue to learn. Push forward 12 months and it's probably been one of the best rides of my entire life. Being able to make meaningful decisions that are impactful and being accountable for those decisions, it's been breathtaking. And you start challenging yourself as a leader because you don't have the backup of anybody else.  You're the guy. But I have got an amazing executive team and amazing practice leadership team that have been incredibly supportive and made the job exceptionally easy. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
You are talking about, effectively a turnaround situation. Did that context change the way you focused and led the business as compared to the history that you had with the Stars?

Clint Cooper:
Yeah, it did. It was certainly that eye opener in the first month or so. When at the Stars, you were starting something from complete scratch. Everything you're doing was new and it was all about growth and excitement and razzle-dazzle. Here, there was some fundamental issues that needed to be corrected and understood and go forward. And the decisions or actions you've taken weren't necessarily welcomed by everybody, but they were necessary decisions that needed to be made. I think what I learned very quickly is the leadership style that I had in the Stars was going to be very different to what ultimately came across into GrowthOps. 

We needed to be incredibly decisive early on, but very empathetic and then build relationships. I think if there's anything that I pride myself on over the journey has been building strong relationships with key stakeholders and people. And whilst coming into an industry, I wasn't a creative or I wasn't a coach, or I wasn't a digital native, but being able to build that relationship on a different level has certainly paid off and something that I, to this day and will continue to work really hard on, ensuring that is the mantra of my leadership.

Gabrielle Schroder:
Given my role here, I've had the benefit of observing some of the things that you've had to deal with, really hard complex people and organisational problems - really difficult to solve. And in the middle of it, I know too, you've had some very difficult personal circumstances to deal with as well. As a leader, you're managing the ups and downs of life and you're also carrying the significant weight of leading a company and the impact of those decisions that you have to make on people. How do you steel yourself for that? And what does performance look like in that context? 

Clint Cooper:
Well, performance in that context early on was survival. And as difficult as those early decisions were, there wasn't another alternative unfortunately. But being able to make those decisions and set the organisation up. If we hadn't had made those decisions, COVID has come and probably, we would have been gone too. I think it's hard to put an exact label on it, but I think the decisiveness and the need to concurrently build relationships, it's almost two opposite things coming together. Because on the one hand, you're trying to build trust, I'm the new guy, I want to lead you through. On the other hand, you're having to make some decisions that are completely opposite to that. But I feel immensely confident going forward that the hard work that everybody's done collectively has set this company onto the path that it needs to be. And I'm immensely proud of that.  

But even more, on self-reflection over the last, just before the AGM, thinking about what the year's been like, and what are the ups and downs. It's funny, you forget about the downs. You do start focusing on the ups and there has been lots of ups. And I think that's what builds the fire in your belly to go further. And seeing some amazing acts of kindness and transparency across the organisation and people doing that extra yard over some of the most difficult periods and not just in a professional capacity, but in a personal capacity. I think coming out of this, I said to someone the other day, I feel like whilst our organisation was disparate when we first came, in COVID and the changes have somehow weirdly made us closer despite being apart. And I think we've got something very special to build upon that. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
Yeah. The common experience that we've all had, but of course it's not precisely common, the COVID hit different states in different ways, and different countries in different ways. You're based in Melbourne and have had to deal with an extraordinary set of circumstances through the lockdown. It's layer upon layer, isn't it, in terms of dealing with this particular crisis. There's the context that you're dealing with, the uncertainty of it all, in the business you're having to lead people through a very very difficult and challenging period. And they're all going through the similar ups and downs that we all are as leaders. When you're looking at the qualities of leadership through a circumstance like that, what have you observed of yourself and perhaps of others that you've observed?

Clint Cooper:
I think I found probably the level of strength that I never though I had before. Mental strength, because you are dealing with sitting in a very small room at home with two screaming kids most of the day, and trying to manage the positivity of an organisation of 400 people across six countries from a very small bedroom was challenging. I think it opened my mind to what the actually opportunity was. And I took more pride in trying to connect with people one-on-one, which you can do in the office environment. You can walk around and check on everybody, but every single day throughout COVID, I was pinging people on Slack or text messages and just had a rotating board, if you like, to try and build that personal connection that I am here, and I am thinking, and I genuinely care about your welfare. 

I think that to me has been the most important thing, how important the mental health of our staff are during situations like this, but even more so going forward, it's such an integral part of work-life balance. I think I've certainly found that. I think one of the sayings from early on was that we needed to act with resilience. And I think the resilience shown by everybody in this organisation has been first-class. But I think I probably found myself at a high level of resilience that I even thought I had because you were dealing with multiple issues across multiple timeframes without the counsel of anybody to just talk to. But I had some great colleagues that I can pick up the phone and have a rant every now and then, which was good.

I think the last thing too, we talked a little bit before about that steel, how do you steel yourself or making those big changes? Throughout this process, particularly, a lot of thought has gone into it. Just a different level of thinking, you never ever want people to lose their jobs or their livelihoods or anything like that. The ability to think through a problem or a situation, because nine times out of 10, that first solution is not the right solution. It might be the easiest solution or the fastest solution. Really taking the time to consider. And sometimes, I'm sure some of my executive team would be frustrated in the times that I took to make certain decisions, but I think that extra time gave me the confidence that a decision was right, or what path I ultimately took. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
Yeah, and I know this has been a theme throughout your career, the thing that people really do recognise in you, is your honesty and the candid way in which you approach problems and that you will talk them through. And I love this idea of actually seeing the problem right through to the end, which is something that I've absolutely observed in you. In thinking about the most recent experience, how has that changed your philosophy on leadership, if at all?

Clint Cooper:
I think it's a really good question, Gab. I think, probably what it's confirmed is leadership, it's not just a steady state. It's got to continue to evolve and evolve to the situation or the mandate or whatever is occurring in the organisation, but I think as a people we've become more empathetic and that's not just in our organisation but everywhere. I think there's this certain level of trust and transparency that probably wasn't there in the past. People would work from home. Yeah, you're working from home, I'm sure you're working from home. But now you see what our people and people around the globe have been doing, working from home in some difficult circumstances. You can't be the old style leader or manager expecting people to be here at 9:00 and finish at 5:00 and they're in the office and all that sort of stuff. I think that's the new world of leadership - absolute, implicit trust in your team and leaders to actually deliver what the business and what they need to do. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
In closing, we are sitting here, it's early December and we're recording this podcast in Sydney. We're socially distant, but that must be a big relief for you to be here. How do you think this experience has changed us as a company and the outlook that we have? 

Clint Cooper:
Yeah. I'm just so enthusiastic for what the future holds. I think for this company to survive what it has and the tumultuous time that it has over a very short-spaced period of time, in reality, to get through COVID and to come out the other side. And to be fair, we've managed to keep most roles employed throughout that whole journey. Which in many industries, hasn't occurred. We have this new-found resilience, this new-found comradery that's only going to hold us in greater stead for the future. I think I've said earlier today, in some other dispatches that I feel like now going into this new era, into the new unlisted environment, that we are in control of our destiny and we have a lot more flexibility and capability. You've got an executive team and a chairman, particularly who's just that driven by success that it's going to benefit the entire organisation. And I truly hope that people who have been here for a long time and ridden the down times are going to share on the upside very soon. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
What are you most looking forward to the new year ahead? 

Clint Cooper:
I think it's setting a new strategy and new direction. We've endorsed a new strategy at board level, but now it's about being able to go see people face-to- face, to be able to explain that. I found it incredibly difficult to lead from a video screen. I much preferred the one-to-one interaction, but now, coming into the Sydney office and seeing people that have actually got legs, to engage with them. And I think you get that real sense. I could never find the sense of, you couldn't read people, you can't read people through a screen. You sit in a room with 30 people around for lunch and you can read them. And I think there is a level of excitement and enthusiasm and opportunity that is ahead for everybody. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
Yeah. It's that connection, isn't it? It's the human-to-human connection, which is what we're all about at IECL. And it really does make you understand what you take for granted in a very big way. In a lot of respects, although it's been terribly difficult, it was probably the very best year for learning and for growth. 

Clint Cooper:
Absolutely, yes. I doubt there's not anyone in the world that hasn't learned something about themselves or their leadership or management or whatever it is that's going to improve them into the future. 

Gabrielle Schroder:
On that note, thank you Clint for your time and for sharing your insights and learnings with us. It's been really fabulous chatting with you today and we wish you all the very best for the year ahead.

Clint Cooper:
Thank you so much.  Thanks for having me. 

Coaching supervision is about creating a reflective space for the coach to think about their practice as a coach, but also reflect on themselves. It is in the context of self-care, increasing awareness of themselves as coach, being able to look at what is working and what is not, what stays with them after a coaching session and why that thing is staying with them. Also, a space to think through ethical dilemmas, tricky situations, perhaps mental health considerations that show up in coaching. 

Jane Porter:
Thank you for having me.

Renee Holder:
Okay, so we're looking at supervision and there are a number of varying definitions of supervision for coaches. How do you define supervision in a coaching context? 

Jane Porter:
Primarily supervision is about creating a reflective space for the coach to think about their practice as a coach, but also reflect on themselves. So I think about it in the context of self care, increasing their awareness of themselves as coach, being able to look at what's working and what's not, perhaps what stays with them after a coaching session and why that thing is staying with them. And also a space to think through ethical dilemmas, tricky situations, perhaps mental health considerations that show up in coaching. 

So while the coach is busy working in service of the counterpart in the organization, who's in service of the coach? And I'd say that's the supervisor. 

Renee Holder:
And you insist that all IECL coaches undertake supervision. Why is this? 

Jane Porter:
Some of the reasons I think what I've just articulated there in that first question. As coaches, even if we're part of an organization, when we're out there in the world, in the practice of coaching, sitting in front of the counterpart, working with the organizations, there's a large piece of self-regulation in that role and being present with what the counterpart and the organization needs and working to keep your own...not your own thinking, but your own content out of that space and that's not easy. So there's a quality assurance piece for us at IECL that I didn't mention earlier around knowing that when a coach bumps up against any of those things we referred to, they have somewhere to go where they can put that thing down, they can have a look at it in a safe space with somebody who can help them explore what might be going on, what might have triggered that thing for them, what the learning in that might be for them, and how that then applies to them as a coach, a human being, and also to their practice so that they're then also more resources to step back out into the industry, the counterpart, the organization and do their job well. 

Renee Holder:
And you run supervision groups yourself?

Jane Porter:
I do, yes.

Renee Holder:
What draws you to being a supervisor?

Jane Porter:
I have been a supervisor longer than I've been a coach. One of my previous lives before I joined the coaching industry and trained to be a coach was in the world of counselling, and counselling supervision certainly in the field that I was working in was mandated. So very early in my counselling career, I had a supervisor and fortunately a great supervisor. So my supervision experience very early on was very positive. The ability to sit with somebody to reflect on you, your practice was just gold. And in time as I grew in that industry, I became a supervisor of others. So interestingly though, when I joined the world of coaching, I didn't get supervision. We're 15 years on now since I joined the world of coaching and I don't know why, but at the time I didn't join the dots. 

You know, supervision was something that then in my head belonged in therapeutic practices. Now I was a coach, I didn't need it. How wrong I was, because when I started to grow as a coach and develop as a coach and bump up against things that were difficult, challenging, that I couldn't make sense of, I had nowhere to put them and would carry these things around, and it impacted me, it impacted my practice, it impacted my life more broadly. It impacted people I live with. So it's really interesting reflecting back now that I didn't connect the dots that I already had this thing and used to do this thing that could have helped me enormously. So when I started to hear the word supervision talked about in the coaching industry, I was immediately curious and also sold because I knew about its benefits from my counselling practice. And ever since I have been following that trail very avidly, getting qualifications in that space in terms of coaching supervision and developing myself as a coaching supervisor as well as a coach. And I have also been in coaching supervision ever since I had that realization, joined those dots, and woke up to myself. 

Renee Holder:
You also deliver IECL supervision training. So I've just heard you talk about having undertaken that professional development yourself, but you're delivering some of that training for others. 

Jane Porter:
Absolutely. 

Renee Holder:
As they choose to become supervisors. So who do you see that supervision training best suited to? 

Jane Porter:
I'm going to make a broad statement, and coach who is serious about their practice, I would say, should be in supervision in terms of supervision training. So, if you want to train to be a supervisor, I would say make sure you've been in supervision for a good period yourself. So you appreciate it from a supervisee perspective. Also, a coach who is looking to extend their practice. So one of the things that training as a supervisor, as a coaching supervisor did for me is it helped me take my practice as coach further. It had me thinking in ways about coaching and exploring coaching in ways that I had not done in coach training. So, it broadened my view on reflective practice, the advantages of reflective practice and all the different types of reflective practices as well. So yeah, some people come to our training as supervisor or to become supervisors, some people come to stretch themselves as coaches. 

Renee Holder:
I'm keen to hear more from you about how you see supervision improving the quality of coaching. So, as you work with supervisees in your groups for instance, and you see them come back and over time they have undertaken more and more supervision. How do you say that impacts the quality of the work that they do in their coaching? Or for yourself? 

Jane Porter:
Well absolutely for myself. So, I might speak from that point of reference rather than speak on behalf of others, because when I come out of a supervision session, what has happened is either I have expanded awareness about something that is going on or I have been able to sense make of something that I couldn't make sense of that was happening for me in a session or in a coaching relationship because not everything is isolated to the session. And with that, it allows me to re-center and reground in my practice, which I hope then means the next time I turn up and coach, the quality of my coaching is better. So, there is a quality of how I apply the craft that is tuned if you like. It is like kind of tuning an instrument. If I don't stay tuned to who I am as a human being and what's happening for me, then that is going to not only impact me, it's going to impact the counterpart and the organization. So, it's a way of staying honed and tuned. And sometimes, it's so interesting. Sometimes I go into a session with my supervisor where I think, "I've got nothing to bring today," but I go anyway because I'm a convert and there's always something. So some of the things that get worked on in supervision are in my immediate awareness. I'm struggling with something and I take that in. Some of the things are not yet in my immediate awareness, they're sitting more subconsciously and when the supervision process starts, the insights start to come on. Oh yes, no I wasn't entirely comfortable, then was I? I think also supervision can be perceived to just focus on what's perhaps not working as well as it might. I think there's also a space in supervision for us to work on what's working well. How do we understand what you did there and bottle that so you can do more of it? 

Renee Holder:
And I'd like to hear again from your personal experience around the different types of supervision, because I'm aware that there is one on one and it sounds like from your example then that there's a one-on-one supervision that you've undertaken but also group. 

Jane Porter:
Absolutely.

Renee Holder:
And that you deliver both. So could you talk a little to the different types and potentially also to the modes? Because the supervision could be delivered face-to-face, it could be virtual, increasingly virtual. So could you talk a little to that, the different types of supervision? 

Jane Porter:
Absolutely. So let's start with one-on-one. So with one-on-one supervision, there's just you and the supervisor. So you're bringing your thoughts, perhaps cases. Sometimes supervision will happen through the lens of a case where we experience what happened in the session or in the relationship in the past. We bring that into conversation around how are you experiencing that in the present? And then start to look at what you might want to do with that in the future. So in one-on-one supervision, the spotlight is on you the whole time. So you do get the opportunity, let's say the session in an hour, to perhaps bring a couple of cases in that time to look at really thoroughly. And also what happens there is you have that one-on-one relationship with your supervisor. Over a series of sessions patterns develop. Rarely, even though the case may look completely different, rarely is the issue completely different, your own patterning shows up and you're in dialogue with your supervisor around, oh, there's that thing that I'm doing again. And a one on one relationship will reveal that perhaps more quickly I think than a group. So in the group space, what you get is up to six people working together, either in a face-to-face context or virtually across a platform like Zoom. I will say when working virtually, if you're going to do virtual supervision, make sure the platform is a good one and make sure you've got some good bandwidth to be able to do the work. And what happens in group supervision is again, cases do get looked at, but the group dynamics and the group impact of the case can be really, really interesting to explore. So let's say I bring a case of an ethical dilemma that I'm experiencing. Once I have had some supervision on that from the group and from the supervisor, it can be really interesting to pause and explore. What's that bringing up for others in the group in terms of what they heard and what they're experiencing? And it's really fascinating systems and group dynamics at work that usually what's happening for the individual being supervised connects to something for everybody in the group. So you get that richness of work across a number of people that I would say is missing in one-on-one supervision. I also think in the group space and network builds, so there's a cohort and a collective community of practice that builds and I see in group supervision, once the supervision is done, sometimes time may be taken to discuss industry themes, trends, challenges. So there's a collective and a community of practice there that builds, which can be really helpful and really supportive. 

Renee Holder:
It sounds like there's some great benefits of both one-on-one and group. 

Jane Porter:
Yes. You know, I'm a convert and I would recommend both. 

Renee Holder:
So if time and budget were no issue.

Jane Porter:
Absolutely. In supervision utopia. 

Renee Holder:
And when a coach is looking for a supervisor, potentially it's the first time they're undertaking supervision, what are some tips that you might provide to them in order to find the right supervisor for them?

Jane Porter:
Yeah. Interview a couple. Have a conversation with a couple. Maybe see if you can get... If you've never had supervision before, maybe see if you can get a little bit of a taster session from somebody because it is, particularly the one-on-one, it's a hot seat to sit in. I come out of my supervision sessions when I've been in the supervisee seat feeling like I've worked really hard, sometimes a bit of sweaty palms and the pressure's on for you to really look at yourself and your practice in a useful way, and that can be confronting for some initially. I think for some, sometimes the group space is an easier entry into supervision because whilst the spotlight will be on you for some of the time, it's not on you for all of the time so you get that opportunity to feel that tension coming on but then the tension coming off again. But I would be looking for a taster from somebody to say could we spend 10 minutes where you just start to show me what this is like? Because it's very hard to I think translate some of the language we use around supervision and then understand what that actually means in practice. Even just the word, there's a lot of association around the word supervisor in therapeutic practice, which we talked about. And you hear sometimes in therapeutic practice that people are just going to the supervisor or to get the ticks in the boxes they need to be able to renew their qualification and their status in the practice. So it doesn't always get a good rep. And of course in organizational life we talk about the supervisor, who is the manager of a body of work. So I think the language we use around it is not necessarily helpful. I tend to think of it as separating the two words out. So it we had the word super and vision as separate words and we had the ability to develop a super vision of our practice, then I think it's much more meaningful in terms of its intense, certainly in coaching, supervision. 

Renee Holder:
Super vision,  I like that. So what does the future hold for supervision? 

Jane Porter:
What does it hold or what would I like it to hold?

Renee Holder:
What would you like... Let's go with what you'd like it to hold. 

Jane Porter:
I am bias and one eyed about this, as you have probably picked up as we are talking. I would love for every professional coach out there in the marketplace to be in some kind of supervision. I would also love for internal coaches that are being trained in organizations to coach internally to get way more supervision support than they do, because it's a complex role. There's a lot of internal coach training happening in our world at the moment and that's great. Building internal coaching capacity I think is a wonderful thing, but the piece that's missing for me is who's taking care of those coaches and who's helping them develop their practice and where's quality assurance, and how does the organization best get return on investment for the money that they've spent on those people? Because being an internal coach is complex. You're in the system, you're caught in the dynamic, you're wearing many hats. Rarely internally is the person just a coach. They're often HR professionals, managers, leaders, and potentially a whole bunch of other things as well. So it I were to see the industry develop, that would be my wish is that we support the internal coaches with supervision now. 

Renee Holder:
Okay. Well, we'll wrap up there. It's been great to hear from you today about all things supervision. I'm now going to be thinking of super vision every time I hear that word. And it's been great to hear your insights and just to hear your stories about what actually happens in that supervision space and what people can look for when seeking supervision or becoming a supervisor themselves. So really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being our guest today. 

Jane Porter:
Thank you, Renee Holder. 

The World Health Organization has defined wellbeing as being in a complete state of physical, mental and social wellbeing, not merely as the absence of ill health, but as a positive thing. It’s an aspirational piece. We’re not really quite there in organizations at the moment. Certainly, there’s a way to go in running an education program helping leaders and employees alike understand that wellbeing is a really slippery, dynamic thing.

Working harder is no longer the guaranteed path to being successful.

Resilience is not a bad thing, but it’s being used in lieu of taking a more complex systemic approach to addressing organisational shortcomings.

Leaders who are grounded and centred and able to deal with this constant disruption and constant change and the way they lead organizations, create the right environment for other people to not just survive but thrive. They are the sorts of leaders and they are the sorts of organizations that are going to go the distance and be really successful. We know that many organizations have much shorter lifespans these days i.e. they go out of business. Why do they go out of business? It’s not for the lack of working hard, but are they sufficiently centred, grounded, focused, visionary? Are they sufficiently creative and agile?

There’s a lot of research around to show that these are the predictors of success in the future. And in order to be able to do those things, you’ve got to be able to pause, stop, reflect, have a breath, recharge, replenish, recover, rest. Dare I say all sorts of potentially quite old fashioned concepts? But they are the things that are setting the organizations who are going to have longevity and successful development over the years ahead apart from the ones who aren’t going to be around.

As coaches, it’s our job to help leaders confront what they might be fearful of, by changing some habits.

Renee: Audrey, you’ve been a psychologist since 1990. You have firsthand insights into the stresses and strains of life as a senior executive, and the impact of leaders’ behaviours on teams’ wellbeing and an organization’s performance. You’ve also been an executive coach to more than 500 leaders over the past 18 years. You are the co-founder of EEK & SENSE and the co-author of the Global Leadership Wellbeing Survey, GLWS. An evidence-based tool used by leaders and their teams to enable wellbeing insights and actions. Since 2015 you have conducted research into the wellbeing profiles of more than 5,000 leaders using the GLWS tool. Welcome. There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about wellbeing and varying definitions. How do you define wellbeing?

Audrey: Thanks very much first of all Renee for inviting me along here today, it’s my very great pleasure. And I think it’s a terrific first question because it’s where we get into a lot of hot water. I mean, wellbeing is such a … Sorry, let me say at the out start, I think because wellbeing is such a common part of the everyday parlance, it’s not a word that anybody stops to really feel any element of surprise about. It’s in our everyday vernacular, but therein also lies the problem – that we don’t have a common shared understanding of what it means. And I do think that in the layperson’s mind, it probably conjures up somewhere between an emphasis on physical health (so the yoga, apples, smoking cessation, stepathons, that sort of thing) and mental ill health.

Audrey: So I think those two components, if we were to survey the average man or woman on the street, that’s probably, I think what we’d get back as the layperson’s definition. Going as far back as the 50s, the 1950s, the World Health Organization has defined wellbeing as being a complete state of physical, mental and social wellbeing. And what they were really getting at there is it’s not merely the absence of ill health, but it’s a positive thing. It’s an aspirational piece. And I think that that’s not really quite there in organizations at the moment, in workplaces. And certainly, I think there’s a way to go in running an education program around helping leaders and employees alike understand that wellbeing is a really slippery dynamic thing.

Audrey: It’s not, once you’ve got it, you can have it forever, it’s multidimensional, it shifts, ebbs and flows. And one of my sort of favourite images is to invite people to think about wellbeing as a delicate balancing act, as seesaw. And on one end of the seesaw, we’ve got all the demands and challenges that are coming at us in life, and on the other end of the seesaw, we have all the assets or resources that we have at our disposal, whether on our insights or our physical energy, our emotional energy, our mental energy, spiritual energy, all those things coming to life. And that wellbeing is that lovely sweet spot where the seesaw is in balance, but it doesn’t take much to knock it slightly out of balance.

Renee: Okay. And you spoke about the layperson’s definition or interpretation of the word wellbeing. What are you seeing in organizations in terms of the way that organizations are defining wellbeing?

Audrey: Well, sort of picking up on my earlier comments, I think one of the things that is prevalent is the sort of over-medicalized emphasis. And I have to be clear, obviously I’m not going to sit here and say physical health isn’t important, it’s an absolute bedrock. And I’m certainly not going to say that the mental health statistics that we hear so much about shouldn’t be front and centre -all those things should be foundational pieces. They seem to be very reactive and very focused on the negative. So smoking cessation, or it’s about minimizing obesity; where I’m concerned about the rise of the mental ill health epidemic that’s we’re really seeing as pandemic across the world. So, I think in short – I’d say that wellbeing in organizations is really I think being defined more by the stats – of the focus on the one in five who are struggling.

Audrey: They’ve got diagnosed ill health, and we believe that those are the stats in Australia today; that at any one point in time, one in five employees is suffering from clinically diagnosed mental ill health, and then you put the physical ill-health on top of that. So, I think that in organizations we’re really focusing on wellbeing as being for the people who are vulnerable and at need. And whilst I think that we must do more to support and help those who are in crisis, we’ve got a long way to go there. It does also beg the question of, well, of all of the others, how many of those people are truly well in that sense of flourishing and having exactly the right level of assets to meet the challenges that are coming at them in life? And so, there’s this piece around the frozen middle.

Renee: Okay. What do you mean by the ‘frozen middle’?

Audrey: So, the frozen middle is the majority of people who we would see coming through coaching rooms and onto programs who while they are not unwell in the sense of clinically meeting the criteria, but they are hanging in there by the skin of their teeth. On a good day they’re coping, but they’re probably showing preclinical symptoms that, if left unaddressed, are highly likely to morph into something more serious. And unfortunately, the data that we’ve got and the data that’s coming through from other organizations is showing that’s a growing majority. So, to put figures around that – we’ve got one in five being diagnosed as suffering from a mental ill health condition.

Audrey: There might be one in five who are flourishing and thriving and for whom we can say they have high levels of wellbeing, but there are three in five who on a good day… they’re, hmm, okay. And so, what I’d love to see is a shift in organizations from thinking about wellbeing as being the province of the vulnerable and the needy to being something that is a human issue that is relevant for the five in five employees. I want to see it plucked out of health safety and wellbeing and stitched into the very fabric of the organization and the workplace for everyone.

Renee: Fascinating. And so, as you and I both work in organizations and we see this sort of fast changing competitive business landscape that business and organizations are operating in. And I don’t know about you, but I see them asking us and looking for ways to unlock more of a sustained performance. And so, I wonder from your perspective, what is that link between a focus on wellbeing for five out of five and improve performance?

Audrey: How long have we got Renee? Look, where to start with this? I think in the olden days there was a very sort of dominant view that if you wanted to progress in your career and if you were intent on holding down a complex role, a professional role that carried with a lot of responsibility, that wellbeing was something that, not necessarily you had to give up in its entirety, but that you would make some trade-offs on in order to progress your career and to do well, to be successful. And perhaps there was a time in organizational life where that was the correct approach to take, but I think anybody who’s thinking that way today in the era of constant disruption where the only thing that’s certain is change itself, I think that, that’s a path to unsustainable performance. And I also don’t think it’s a path to success. So, I’ve been on record previously having a bit of an issue with the lovely Elon Musk.

Renee: Oh yes?

Audrey: And his declarations that we should all be working 100-hour weeks in order to achieve our mission, which of course in his case is to see society develop on Mars. There’s so many aspects of him and his approach that I love, but sadly I don’t think he’s going to get to Mars because I think the way that he’s working and the way that he’s leading his organization is really unsustainable and counterproductive. So, I’m going a bit off track here and the man does have $32 billion more than I do. Perhaps I shouldn’t be arguing with him. Well, when I look to the future and I think, how likely is it that he’s going to be successful, I don’t feel unfortunately that he is going to be successful because I see it as a fallacy.

Working harder is no longer the path to being successful. And I think that leaders who are looking after themselves and will come out and maybe talk about what that truly means. But leaders who are grounded and centred and able to deal with this constant disruption and constant change and the way that they lead organizations and create the right environment for other people to not just survive but thrive in those environments. They are the sorts of leaders and they are the sorts of organizations that are going to go the distance and be really successful.

We have Simon Sinek talking about the difference between the Finite Game and the Infinite GameAnd that leadership is the determinant of whether we were playing an infinite game or a game that’s going to come to an end. And we know that so many organizations have much shorter lifespans these days iethey go out of business. Why do they go out business? It’s not for the lack of working hard, but are they sufficiently centred, grounded, focused, visionary? Are they sufficiently creative and agile?

And there’s a lot of research around to show that those are the predictors of the future. And in order to be able to do those things, you’ve got to be able to pause, stop, reflect, have a breath, recharge, replenish, recover, rest. Dare I say all sort of potentially quite old fashioned concepts? But they are the things that are setting the organizations who are going to have longevity and successful development over the years ahead, apart from the ones who aren’t going to be around.

Renee: Fascinating. And you mentioned a moment ago of Elon Musk and his way of working. Just got me thinking about as leaders we have our definition of flourishing, you use the word flourishing a moment ago, and whether that’s the same as somebody else’s definition of flourishing, what are your thoughts on that?

Audrey: Well, I think the English language is a terrible vehicle with which to express ourselves and with any label comes multiple different interpretations. But the thing I like about either definition of flourishing is it has something positive and aspirational around it. It’s something that’s got an upbeat energy, and I think one of the roles of leaders today is to create positive energy in a world that is potentially going to hell in a hand basket on some days, it’s what we feel like! So anybody that can inspire, not to some sort of diluted Pollyanna version of positive energy book, but to something that people can relate to and feel is worthy of their energy, their focus, their efforts that they can believe in. So I think that’s part of the flourishing. So I don’t know if I’ve answered your question there Renee but-

Renee: I was probably thinking a little bit more about a latest definition than being interpreted by their team or by the organization. That they sort of demonstrate a hundred hour week and that might be okay for them, but then what does their team or their organization read into that about whether that actually is the lifestyle that’s admired around here.

Audrey: I don’t want us to be a Musk beat up session.

Renee: No, but it’s-

Audrey: But I do think about what it must be like to work in the organization and have your high-profile CEO on record saying we must all be working a hundred hours a week. What does it feel like when it comes around 7:00 PM on a Friday night and you want to clock off and where does family fit in there? Where does sleep and health and fitness? So, I think you’re right. What a leader sees as being positive and flourishing, we do have to be careful about that – because it’s not necessarily what everybody wants.

Renee: Okay.

Audrey: I think the other comment I’d make before we move on from this is around how there’s this link between stress levels and performance. And low stress levels are not conducive to high levels of performance. But, gone are the days where we wander into an office and go home. I’m going to be so bored today nothing to do! For most people we’re being drinking from the fire hose. We were spoiled for choice. There’s so much that’s competing for our attention and our demands.

Understress is not really an issue for most people these days;they’re having too much stress. And the optimal level of stress is where we feel enough to kind of have a bit of adrenaline and a bit of focus and a bit of energy. But if we don’t channel that and we are constantly in a state of heightened adrenaline and so many things competing for our attention and scarce resources, then that’s the set of conditions that over time leads to us feeling exhausted and fatigued and then that leads to burnout. And after burnout – disease and ultimately death without being too melodramatic about it! So, we have to get this balance right about the amount of stress that there is in our life. Without demonizing stress. I mean stress is a good thing… to a point.

Renee: And so, in that environment that you were so well describing just then, I’m wondering why then is a focus on resilience not just and not, why is that a not enough?

Audrey: Well I think a lot of organizations and maybe even some individuals and leaders do think it’s enough. So, I don’t. I’ll come onto that in a moment. But one of the responses to the really high stress levels has been, “we just need to make our people more resilient”. So, “if we have tough minds and we have lots of grit and stamina and we’re just got to be mentally tough and hang in there, it’ll be fine”. But for me that sounds awfully aligned to the three in five frozen, middle; the people who are hanging in there. So yeah, we can of course build resilience and in part that’s a really good thing to do. But resilience isn’t … high levels of resilience aren’t the same as wellbeing, high levels of wellbeing. That’s one point I’d make.

And the other, I guess deeper issue I’ve got with putting all our eggs in the resilience basket, is that where we’re asking people to become more resilient, to compensate for bad systems and processes or bad leadership. So, I’m sure there might be some people listening in their capacity as coaches who will be able to relate to this. But when you take a brief as a coach where the brief from the organization is around, or just ‘Renee would really benefit from building up her resilience’. Oh, tell me why that is?! Oh, well there’s been some issues with her coworkers or blah blah! And over time as the coach you deduce the issues have really got very little to do with Renee’s resilience!

It’s the system or the organization or the workplace or the team or the company or the bosses that are surrounding Renee where the issue is. But that’s a much harder systemic set of things to face into. And so, Renee and her coach are briefed with the task of “just make Renee more resilient”. And so, I mean, it’s a bit simplistic and dramatized for today’s purposes, but that’s the issue that I’ve got with this sort of resilience movement. Not that resilience is a bad thing, but it’s being used in lieu of taking a more complex systemic approach to addressing other shortcomings.

Renee: What I’m hearing in what you’re describing there is almost like an approach to the individual being responsible, solely responsible, and for by building up their resilience now that will cure all of those issues for what you’re describing there of course is as you said, what coaches here every day in their engagements is that of course it’s more complex and needs to be addressed systematically.

Audrey: I came across a lovely analogy the other day about likening wellbeing to a barrel full of apples where the individuals in the barrel… sorry the apples in the barrel were equivalent to individual employees. And of course what we want are shiny, crisp apples that are being and have been well looked after, and are all lovely and fresh. But, you have to consider the barrel that they’re in. So the workplace, the organization, the culture. But also, the fact of apples on one another. And then we had a bit of fun with this analogy saying, well, it gets even more gross when you think about a punnet of strawberries. ‘Cause you know, what happens if there’s a mouldy strawberry in there? And particularly big mouldy strawberries spread very quickly. And so, everything in the barrel is affected, well, if the leader is the big mouldy strawberry, that’s not much fun, is it?!

So fruit is an analogy, but wellbeing is contagious, and the wellbeing of one individual – you may well have experienced this yourself, working in a team where how one individual shows up –has an impact on everybody else’s emotions, on everybody else’s enjoyment or satisfaction, on everybody else’s energy levels.

Renee: Yes.

Renee: Like a contagion.

Audrey: like a contagion, that’s exactly right, the wellbeing effect, the contagion effect.

Renee: So when you’re working with leaders and they don’t know themselves very well, and they’re also not aware of those multiple dimensions of wellbeing, well beyond resilience we’ve just spoken about, in your experience what is the consequence? And I know you’ve alluded to a few of them already, but could you expand on what you see as the consequences for either the individual or those around them when they don’t have that level of awareness?

Audrey: So one of the common things that we would see is an executive saying, yeah, no, I’m fine, I’m okay, and they may genuinely believe that, and to some extent then who are we to argue? Wellbeing is a very subjective thing. But as a coach you’ve got to learn to kind of dig under the surface if somebody says fine, what does that really mean? But what I’m getting at here is that leaders can just develop entrenched habits so they can be accustomed to getting less than five hours sleep. They can be accustomed to getting up into the office at 6:00 AM to get a head start on the day and they get their work done before the team comes in at 8:30 and then they do this, and then they do that. And all of a sudden that becomes their norm or over time actually becomes their norm, and it becomes so normalized for them, it doesn’t occur to them that it might be suboptimal or doing them harm or not sustainable.

And so, I think that leaders can be a little bit fearful to look at the habits and patterns that in many ways have contributed to them becoming successful. Their work ethic is one of the most common ones that people will say, ‘I have worked really hard to get here’. And yet in this era that we live in now where there don’t seem to be very many boundaries, where you could work 24/7, the work ethic becomes a potential downside or a risk that, if they don’t manage, can be their undoing. So, I think one thing that we could do as coaches is to help leaders confront what they might be fearful of in changing some habits.

And then the other thing I think, is that leaders can have some blind spots. Well, we can all have blind spots, but blind spots around our own wellbeing. And we find that when we get to do some work with them and really focus on their wellbeing and kind of bring that into focus a lot more sharply, one of the things that then happens is they go, ‘Oh my God, that was amazing, this is so important, I’ve developed all these new habits’. Then one of the other things that they can do is then insist that their team run with exactly the same habits.

So I had a leader contact me the other day saying how that was fantastic stuff that we did and I had such a breakthrough. It was amazing for me So now I’ve insisted my whole team come to the gym with me at lunch time, 12 o’clock on the dot every day.

And I just put my head in my hands going, no, no, no, no, that’s not the point! wellbeing is so subjective, that worked for you, but it might not work for the team. And that’s one of the other kind of pitfalls I see leaders fall into – that they become so passionate about their own wellbeing. They well -intentionally but erroneously prescribe their wellbeing recipe to other people. So they miss the point!

Renee: Yeah. Can I ask, there’s a lot of people, thousands of leaders as I said in the introduction, thousands of leaders who’ve been through your wellbeing survey. Can you share with us some of the things that you’re finding of late, what the data is telling you?

Audrey: Yeah. Well, a big picture of the data would just be really confirming the one in five, three in five and the one in five trends. So, if we think about wellbeing as being sort of on a continuum, the data would show really a reinforcement of my earlier comments.

Renee: You’ve got that breakdown in the data?

Audrey: I’ve got the breakdown on the data, and that middle or frozen majority (however is we want to refer to them) but there are significant number of people who are calling out preclinical signs of low wellbeing, but they are being offset to a degree by some things that are really positive in their life. And that’s kind of how it works.

So a typical profile Renee might be a senior leader who says, ‘I love what I’m doing, I’m really engaged in my job, I find it really interesting and I’m really committed and I like the organization that I’m working with’. So there’s a lot going well and that really is very supportive. That’s the idea of a wellbeing assets, something that’s enhancing their level of wellbeing.

And yet when, if you pursue that conversation with individual then and maybe ask a question about, what will happen if you change nothing about your wellbeing habits at all? You love this job and it’s really interesting and engaging and stimulating, how will life be for you two, three, five years from now?

And often that then makes them pause and think, five years from now my kids are going to be this age, I’m probably another five to 10 kilos heavier, that probably puts me at risk of some diabetes or heart health issues. God, maybe I’ll be divorced because I haven’t been paying attention to my loving partner sufficiently.

So, there can be lots of things that are going well that if we focus on them to the exclusion of the habits and patterns that are potentially detractors, that’s what we’re seeing coming through in our data as being of concern.

It’s like a short term versus long term. We quite often talk about wellbeing as being a bit like an insurance policy, that you’ve got to pay into knowing that you’re doing something good for the future. Some of the stats that we’ve got around the ways in which people are … Sorry, I’m losing my voice here talking about wellbeing!

Some of the stats are around 80% of senior professionals feeling that their concentration is compromised by competing demands for their attention. 75% of them feel that they’re pulled in too many different directions in their roles and drowning in red tape, high levels of self-doubt. Now, these individuals aren’t saying that they have low wellbeing, they’re saying that there’s many things going well, but when that level of self-doubt and being distracted and overwhelmed are occurring at the level that we’re seeing them occur, then I worry about what that looks like over the longer term.

Renee: You’ve mentioned a few times in our discussion, you’ve worked with thousands of leaders who’ve been through your wellbeing tool. What is the data showing?

Audrey: I love a bit of data. Yes, we’ve got a few. So I have analyzed 330,000 items which have come from several thousand leaders mostly in Australia, but across the globe, and they’re in professional or senior leadership roles. And what that data tells us is that much like I was saying earlier, the start of our conversation Renee, most people are not unwell. We don’t have huge high levels of anxiety and depression being reported, but most people are not flourishing and thriving and firing on all cylinders. What we see is the majority of people reporting quite concerning experiences and behaviours, which if they play out without change over the long term, I worry for their wellbeing over the long term.

So, for example out of our population, 80% of leaders say that their ability to concentrate is compromised by competing demands for their attention, 75% feel pulled in too many different directions in their roles, 63% feel that they’re at risk of developing burnout. And just as a quick aside on that, in the era of increased governance and risk management we should be really, really worried about burnout because when people are burned out, the incidents of bad behaviour or poor behaviour skyrockets. It’s where we see poor judgment, people stop caring about the decisions they’re making, they start behaving in very uncivil, rude, aggressive ways with one another.

Those are some of the sort of behavioural signs. So, 63% of senior leaders and professionals say that they sometimes usually or always feel at risk of burnout. I think we have to take that very seriously. They’re not saying they are burnt out, but that there is a risk of it. We’ve got 60% of people saying that they feel stressed and anxious whilst at work and the same numbers feeling prone to very high levels of self-doubt. And I could go on, there’s more around sleep and toxicity of relationships, politics in the workplace on and so forth. But it’s makes me feel that we’ve got human beings who are experiencing work in life somewhat as a bit of a pressure cooker and it’s questioned about when’s it going to blow.

Renee: And when we consider all that data and knowing that our listeners today will often be those who are passionate about coaching often coaching themselves and working with leaders every day. What do you see is the coach’s responsibility in all of this?

Audrey: I guess it’s similar to what we would say the coach’s responsibility is in a lot of areas. So, it’s to play that dual role of being supportive and simultaneously challenging. So, with respect to wellbeing, if I get a little bit more specific, I think there are questions around what is the individual that you’re working with in the coaching engagement, what are they doing to support or detract from their own wellbeing? So, your job as a coach is impart, uphold or hold them to account for taking responsibility for their own wellbeing. Now they may be working in a bad system, in a bad workplace with a bad boss and a bad team, but there are still some things and some choices that they have open to them. And so, the coach could really be focusing on those.

So you get the coaches to help the individual put their wellbeing front and centre of their choices and explore the link between their wellbeing and their performance. And then I think over above holding the individual to account and gently encouraging them to examine the way that they’re leading their life in the context of their wellbeing. Once they’ve done that, I think it’s also about encouraging the leader to think about how they show up having an impact on other people’s wellbeing. So that contagion effect that we mentioned earlier.

And when they’re doing that, the stage after that, because hopefully they are really converted to the idea that wellbeing is not a trade-off for successful performance, but it’s an enabler of sustainable high performance. And when they’ve got that message, then they’re in a position of really being able to sort of act as an influencer at the systemic level. In the work that we do, we talk about helping leaders develop wellbeing and a culture of workplace wellbeing.

So, developing a capability around enabling wellbeing. And we have four things that are our catch cry. We talk about them being able to learn it, and so educating them just in the way that we’ve been talking today about what wellbeing is and it’s multidimensional and subjective and ebbs and flows and it’s more than the absence of ill health. All of those things really sort of pulling your leaders together and having that conversation with them. So, once they’ve learnt it? Live it! Which is where we really sit down and that’s where we would use our global leadership wellbeing survey, the GLWS, and we’d sit down and we’d take them through 121 questions. They would really scrutinize the factors that are enhancing and detracting from their own wellbeing and they get a really sort of forensic level understanding of what it is.

It’s an audit for themselves. And once they’ve lived that and they’ve really developed their own sort of self-awareness around the factors enhancing and detracting from their own wellbeing, then they’re in a position to Lead It for other people. But if you go too soon to trying to get people to lead it before they’ve learned it and lived it, then I think that’s part of the reason why we see comparatively low levels of uptake on things like wellbeing programs. And it’s why they’re staying in this sort of OH&S and medical space as opposed to moving into or being integral to leadership.

So – learn it, live it, lead it, and the stage after leading it with their teams is to then embed it within organizations and really be that sort of power horse for systemic change. So, going back to the apples in the barrel, they’re really in a position having looked at their own apple, polished it up, helps other people polish up their apples that embedded places is working at the systemic level.

Renee: So Audrey we’ve come to a close, there’s been some great insights and tips, peppered throughout what you’ve shared today. I just wanted, if there’s any final advice you’d give to coaches.

Audrey: Thanks Renee I’ve enjoyed this immensely. Final advice. There’s two things I think I would suggest. One is – don’t leave a discussion about wellbeing until the person that you’re coaching is heading on their way to being the one in five. Remember, wellbeing is for five and five. And so wellbeing should be a feature of every single coaching relationship. Not just the coaching briefs that around, I’ve got somebody who needs to build a resilience or who’s stressed or who isn’t very well to make it front and centre. So that’s point one. And the second sort of tip I’d give is don’t be a mouldy strawberry or an unpolished apple. Look after yourself. It’s sounds obvious, but it’s hard to do.

Renee Holder: Great. Thank you so much.

Audrey: You’re very welcome.

Renee Holder: Great. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today and for being a fabulous guest.

Audrey: Thank you, Renee. I don’t know about that, but thank you.