Have you ever stayed silent to protect your funding?
Have you ever watched your organization soften its language, avoid a difficult conversation, or stand down from a fight it knew it should take on — because the cost of speaking up felt too high?
If so, you're not alone.
In his Letter from a Birmingham Jail, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. named this dynamic, which many now call white moderation. He wrote:
"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says:
'I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action'; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a 'more convenient season.'
Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will."
To bring forth the loving justice and collective liberation that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. fought so hard for, we must be willing to step into the fray and experience the tension that has always been part of the fight for justice.
To transform the conflicts we face in our society, our organizations, our communities, and our homes, we must muster the courage to speak the unspeakable and name what needs naming.
Too often, however, people avoid saying the thing, preferring to remain in an absence of tension — that negative peace that Dr. King wrote about.
In today's episode, my guest Vu Le and I discuss white moderation in depth — how it keeps us silent, how to be more aware of when it’s showing up at work, and how to move beyond it so that we can fight fascism far more effectively, both in our organizations and in the rest of our lives.
You don’t have to work in a nonprofit to love this conversation — I certainly did. And I’m especially grateful for all the inspiring stories that Vu shares. I think you will too.
In this episode of the Conflict Decoded podcast, I sat down with Vu Le for an honest, challenging, and ultimately hopeful conversation about the state of the nonprofit sector.
We talked about what it means to do this work right now — in a political moment that can feel overwhelming, disorienting, and terrifying.
Vu brought Antonio Gramsci's haunting observation into our conversation: "The old world is dying, and a new world struggles to be born. Now is a time of monsters." We talked about what it means to live inside that tension — to watch old systems crumble while new, more just ones struggle to take their place, and to see what rises in the space between.
We talked about fascism. About the playbook authoritarians have always followed — and why understanding that playbook is essential for anyone committed to building a better world. History is clear: When Hitler came to power, the first people he attacked were trans people. Trump and other authoritarians are not doing anything new. They are following an old strategy. And those of us committed to liberation have to understand that, so we can counter it.
We talked about despair — the kind that creeps in when you've been fighting for a long time and the ground keeps shifting beneath you. Vu shared five things worth holding onto when you feel yourself sliding into fatalism: the validity of your feelings, our collective history of resistance, the courage of those who came before us, the resources we have access to, and — perhaps most unexpectedly — why fascist leaders are acting the way they are in the first place. His answer was more hopeful than I anticipated.
We talked about the backlash against DEI — the broken promises, the whitewashed websites, the colleagues who lost their jobs. And Vu reframed it in a way that stayed with me: The backlash means DEI is working.
And we talked about white moderation itself — the conflict aversion, the focus on "doing things right" instead of doing the right thing, the tendency to go around rather than directly to the person you're in tension with. Vu shared what awareness looks like in practice, and why building that muscle is foundational to doing any of the deeper work.
There is a difference between the strategy of those working to break us apart and the strategy of those working to build something better. Their strategy is to divide. Ours must be to come together — across our organizations, across our movements, across our differences.
If you work in the nonprofit sector, care about justice, or are trying to figure out how to stay grounded and effective in a time of monsters, this episode is for you.
Listen to the full podcast
Guest Bio
Vu Le writes the blog nonprofitAF.com, which details the humor and frustration of nonprofit work. He has over two decades of experience in the sector, including 13 years as an executive director across two nonprofits. Vu has written a new book called “Reimagining Nonprofits and Philanthropy: Unlocking the Full Potential of a Vital and Complex Sector,” which his 9-year-old said, “Is not as boring as I thought it would be.”
Guest Links:
www.nonprofitaf.com
www.nonprofitaf.com/book
Are you navigating conflict, tension, or challenging dynamics?
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5. Finally, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it. If this conversation named a tension you’ve seen play out in your work or community, you’re not alone — and you don’t have to navigate it by yourself.
Sharing doesn’t have to be public. Forwarding this episode to one person who might be living inside a similar conflict is more than enough. Thank you.
Until next time, may you find the clarity and confidence you need to show up in ways that make you proud.
Related Articles:
Letter from a Birmingham Jail
www.nonprofitaf.com/have-nonprofit-and-philanthropy-become-the-white-moderate-that-dr-king-warned-us-about
https://www.nonprofitaf.com/21-signs-you-or-your-organization-may-be-the-white-moderate-dr-king-warned-about/
https://www.nonprofitaf.com/the-white-moderation-genome-project/
Related Episodes:
Ep. 28 Practical Steps to Undermine Authoritarianism & Grow Democracy in Your Community with Jiva Manske
Ep. 15 How to Build Collective Power: Good Organizing with Sulma Arias
Ep. 4 The Social Change Ecosystem Map with Deepa Iyer
Key Moments:
00:00 Why Nonprofits Must Act
03:25 Funding Fears and White Moderation
14:08 Fighting Fascism Through Community
20:31 Outlasting Monsters
21:26 White Moderation at Work
34:38 DEI Backlash and Real Equity
FULL TRANSCRIPT
The Negative Peace of White Moderation & How to Uproot it in Your Organization
Katherine: Thank you, Vu, for taking this time to talk. I know that your schedule is really busy with your new book, and I’m grateful for this opportunity to connect. I’d love to start by asking you what has called you to be so passionate right now about supporting nonprofits in the fight against fascism?
Vu: Well, right now everything is on fire. Nonprofits have always been really crucial for many of the civil rights wins that we’ve had in the past. And right now, I think it’s very important for us to focus on saving democracy and pushing back fascism, because it affects every single mission that every single nonprofit cares about right now.
Katherine: Can you share a bit about your personal background and what brought you to this moment?
Vu: I was born in Vietnam. I came over when I was eight. I got a master’s degree in social work and have been in the sector for a couple of decades now. I have run two nonprofits over a span of 13 years, so I’ve been in the sector a while. I love our sector and I think it does some amazing things. And at the same time, there are some challenges that we really do need to discuss.
Katherine: Can you share more about what those challenges look like, especially right now? Can you paint a picture of organizations you’re talking to who are grappling with how to respond to this moment?
Vu: Before everything that’s been happening over the past decade or so — all the crises, the poly-crises that we’ve been dealing with — nonprofits have always had a bunch of challenges. There’s a lack of appreciation for overhead. There’s this idea that we want all the money to go directly to programs, not on staff salaries or rent or other things that are vital.
