In this episode of the Contractor Freedom Podcast, Jason W. Phillips sits down with Jennifer Smith, HR manager and culture champion at Phillips Home Improvements, to unpack why most contractor hiring problems are not really people problems. They are clarity problems.

Jason and Jennifer talk through what has to happen before a job posting ever goes live: defining the role, knowing your core values, identifying the ideal candidate, building clear key result areas, and creating a compensation plan that rewards the right outcomes.

They also discuss the cost of bad hires, why culture must be guarded at the gate, and how values-based hiring can attract the right people while repelling the wrong ones.

For contractors who are tired of hiring out of desperation, this episode is a practical reminder that the goal is not just a bigger team. The goal is the right team.

Topics Covered:

Contractor hiring, values-based hiring, culture fit, team building, leadership, role clarity, key result areas, KPIs, HR for contractors, hiring mistakes, Contractor Freedom, Jason W. Phillips, Jennifer Smith, Phillips Home Improvements, Contractor Prison

Takeaways:

• The central premise discussed in this episode is the notion that hiring challenges stem predominantly from a lack of clarity regarding candidate requirements and organizational values.
• A contractor's struggle to find suitable employees often indicates a deficiency in defining the ideal candidate profile and the associated role expectations effectively.
• It is imperative for businesses to articulate their core values clearly, as these values not only influence hiring practices but also shape the organizational culture and employee satisfaction.
• The episode emphasizes the importance of establishing key result areas for each role, thereby ensuring that potential hires are evaluated based on their ability to meet specific performance outcomes.
• The significance of aligning compensation with desired behaviors and results is highlighted, as it serves to motivate employees to achieve their best performance in accordance with company objectives.
• Ultimately, clarity in both values and role expectations will facilitate the recruitment of individuals who align with the organization’s mission, thereby fostering a harmonious workplace culture.

The primary focus of this podcast episode is to elucidate the crucial steps contractors should undertake when experiencing a downturn in lead generation, emphasizing the necessity of refraining from hastily investing in additional advertising to rectify a problem that may stem from internal inefficiencies. I expound upon the common tendency of contractors to panic and flood the market with ads, which often exacerbates the situation by increasing costs and diluting return on investment. It is imperative to first diagnose the nature of the slowdown—whether it is a market-wide issue or a self-inflicted predicament due to faulty systems. I provide a systematic approach, comprising four essential steps that contractors ought to follow to optimize their existing resources before considering any new financial expenditures. Ultimately, this discussion aims to empower contractors to work more effectively with their current assets, thereby fostering sustainable business practices and avoiding unnecessary financial strain. Contractors frequently encounter periods where lead generation slows, often prompting a hasty response characterized by increased advertising expenditure. This reaction, however, is often misguided. The discussion emphasizes that in times of reduced leads, contractors typically panic and oversaturate the market with advertisements, inadvertently escalating costs and diminishing returns. I advocate for a more strategic approach, urging contractors to first assess the nature of the slowdown—whether it is a market-wide trend or a specific operational issue. The initial step should be to ensure the existing leads are being effectively managed rather than hastily investing more in acquiring new leads. This entails scrutinizing the responsiveness to incoming inquiries and ensuring that every potential client is adequately followed up with. By focusing on internal systems and processes, we can often remedy the situation without incurring additional costs, ultimately leading to a more sustainable business model that does not rely on reactive spending.

Takeaways:

• Contractors often react to a slowdown in leads by increasing ad spending, which can exacerbate the problem.
• Before allocating additional resources, it is crucial to assess whether leads are being effectively utilized.
• Systemic issues within a business can often masquerade as market-related slowdowns, leading to misdirected efforts.
• Effective lead management requires prompt follow-up and a structured approach to nurture leads over time.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Contractor Freedom
• Facebook
• Ringcentral
• Angie
• Nextdoor

In this episode of the Contractor Freedom Podcast, Jason W. Phillips sits down with Joe Carfagno of Carfagno Professional Painting to unpack how Joe went from addiction, cancer, relapse, and starting over to building a growing painting business with real systems, team culture, and purpose.

Joe shares how his company grew to 10 painters, 3 office team members, and $1.8M last year. He also talks about his recent best month ever, closing $265,000 in April and hitting two $95,000 weeks after attending F7 Boot Camp.

This conversation covers the personal and business side of Contractor Freedom: getting out of owner-operator chaos, learning your numbers, improving your sales process, leading your team, building company culture, and creating a business that supports faith, family, freedom, and purpose.

Takeaways:

• The Contractor Freedom Podcast aims to liberate small business owners from the constraints of contractor prison, enabling them to achieve personal fulfillment beyond their business pursuits.
• Jason Phillips, the host, emphasizes the importance of life skills, love, leadership, and business acumen for entrepreneurs seeking to enhance their operational efficiency and personal growth.
• Guests on the podcast, such as Joe Carfagno, share their transformative journeys from adversity to success, highlighting the resilience required to overcome significant life challenges and build thriving enterprises.
• The discussion underscores the critical role of coaching and community in fostering a supportive environment for contractors, illustrating how collaboration can lead to personal and professional development.
• Business growth is often accompanied by the necessity of adapting to new systems and practices, which may involve relinquishing control and embracing delegation for improved scalability.
• The podcast articulates that true freedom extends beyond financial gain, encompassing personal wellness, spiritual alignment, and the quality of relationships in one’s life.

Links referenced in this episode:

• contractorfreedomlive.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Carfagnum Professional Painting
• Teen Challenge
• Morristown Medical Center
• Paintcon
• John Mitchell

In this episode of the Contractor Freedom Podcast, Jason W. Phillips sits down with Kyle Schuh of 605 Painting to unpack how their company moved from owner-operator chaos to a more scalable, profitable business.

Kyle shares the behind-the-scenes story of how 605 Painting improved gross profit from around 30% to 62%, hit $1M in a quarter, and began building the systems, sales process, and team alignment needed to create real Contractor Freedom.

This conversation goes beyond revenue. Jason and Kyle talk about what happens when contractors stop relying on heroics, stop selling from fear, and start building a company that can grow without the owner being chained to every decision.

You’ll hear practical lessons on pricing, sales, leadership, team buy-in, and why more leads are not always the answer. The real path to freedom is closing the right jobs, at the right price, with the right margins — a core Contractor Freedom message.

This episode is for painting contractors, home improvement business owners, and trades entrepreneurs who want to build a business that creates time, money, and freedom — not just more work.

In this episode of the Contractor Freedom Podcast, Jason Phillips sits down with Konrad Derheim of Derheim Painting for a powerful conversation about rebuilding, refocusing, and growing a painting business through one of the hardest seasons of his life.

Konrad shares how he went from feeling overwhelmed and stuck to building a $1.8M painting company by getting clear on the right work, making hard leadership decisions, improving his sales process, and learning how to build a business that could support both growth and freedom.

This conversation is for contractors who have built something successful on paper but still feel trapped by the pressure, decisions, and daily chaos of the business. Jason and Konrad talk honestly about what it takes to move from survival mode into real leadership and how focus, systems, pricing, and team development can change the future of a company.

If you’re a painting contractor, remodeling business owner, or home improvement entrepreneur who wants to escape Contractor Prison and build a business that gives back your time, peace, and purpose, this episode is for you.

Topics include painting business growth, contractor leadership, building a team, raising prices, creating systems, overcoming hard seasons, and finding Contractor Freedom.

Jason Phillips: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Contractor Freedom Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Phillips. This show exists to help small business owners like you escape the tyranny of contractor prison and enter the bliss of contractor freedom so you can have the time, money, and freedom to live your life with purpose beyond your business.

As a certified human behavior consultant in DISC personality styles and motivators, I'll be sharing with you skills for life and business. I'll also be connecting you with experts that can help you scale your business and your life. So if you want to build the business and life of your dreams, then you are in the right place.

Let's go! All right, welcome back, everybody. Today, I'm thrilled to introduce a special guest who is truly a beacon of innovation and leadership in the home service industry. Billy Kline, the owner of YourNewDoor. com is here with us. Billy runs a family business. Metro area and Billy and I have been online friends for quite a while now, but we recently got to spend some time talking in [00:01:00] person when he, uh, generally offered to take me to the airport in Austin, rather than me hailing an Uber.

So I really appreciate that, Billy. And Billy made a choice to a few years ago to eject the status quo in his business and to, and to change the game. And since then, he's made some impress impressive strides in his business. And I'm sure that you are going to be inspired by his story. One of the things that I really.

Appreciate about Billy is how humble and hungry he is. And plus he's got a heart to give back and to help others. So Billy, welcome to the Contractor Freedom Podcast. It's fantastic to have you here with us today. 

Billy Cline: Hey Jason, I appreciate you having me on. It's an honor. There's one thing in this world I like to talk about is business, right?

I'm very awkward a lot of times when we get into social events or settings, right? Like, I don't want to talk about much. I don't like talking about baseball or sports much, but I want to talk about business. So if I can corner someone at a party or something like that, it wants to talk business, you know, they can't shut me up.

But otherwise, a lot of times I sit around and don't say much. So I enjoy these,

We 

know 

Jason Phillips: if we revisit that. That little [00:02:00] talk we had on the way to the airport, you know, you told me where the way your business used to be. Can you just give me a, give us a, give the listeners a glimpse of, of how did things used to be with, with your company and you?

Billy Cline: Well, you know, we spoke a little bit and I referenced that, you know, the path that you're on and what you do and what you speak about, contractor prison and breaking out of that. I was the epitome of that, right? Like my, my business owned me. I didn't have a, I didn't have a business. I had a job really.

Right. And my number one goal every week was to sell enough jobs to make payroll. Right? And it was really one of those scenarios where I couldn't afford to take a day off. I couldn't miss a day. If something went wrong on a job where we didn't get paid for that job, we were going to miss payroll. And you know, it was always something, right?

Like it was literally what you hear and what you think when someone talks about being a firefighter in their business. If, you know, you know, Honestly, it's probably was a good exercise for me to go through because now when something's on fire around here, I just sit around and, you know, it doesn't, I don't get excited about it because I've been through way worse.

Right. [00:03:00] So, but it was literally, you know, five alarms every day, just trying to keep the wheels on the bus. Somebody doesn't show up, you know, somebody messed up a project, something was missold or whatever. Right. So it was always something and I just got tired of it one day. Honestly, almost quit. My wife and I went to church.

And we stopped at, I'll never forget it, we stopped at Burger Street on the way back from church and had a conversation that we were going to quit offering a certain aspect of our business just because it was just so burdensome. And I was ready to quit. And I'm glad that I didn't because in three or four instances in my life, I've been right at that edge to where things were, you know, ready to quit.

And it's like, it was literally like, just, that was the edge that we broke over and things started to break open for us and change. Mostly my mindset and my attitude. But it really, after we, after I, uh, got over not quitting and getting over that, it was like the skies opened up and, you know, God was ready for us to do, you know, what, uh, we were supposed to do.

Jason Phillips: Billy, has there been a time [00:04:00] when, can you take us back to a time and maybe that was it, when you felt completely, you know, overwhelmed by your business and it was, it brought you to maybe even a breaking point? How long, uh, are we 

Billy Cline: recording today? Right? Yeah. It was, you know, the interesting thing for me is, I feel like, you know, not to pat myself on the back or anything, I feel like I have come out of that place relatively quickly, right?

Like, it's one of those things, like a reform story, someone's in prison and they get out and totally change their life and become, you know, millionaires or whatever. I was literally felt like I was stuck in prison. You know, I was, a lot of times, I was wearing all the hats still. I was doing all the sales.

I had people for things, but I was too dumb and too stubborn to turn loose and let them do their job, right, without micromanaging. It was just always. You know, buyers and always I had to felt like I needed to be in a part of everything. And then one day I, what really broke it open for me was I realized that I had a broken mind, right?

Like I was raised by people who were raised by people who went through the great [00:05:00] depression, right? And generationally that carries over. And my parents, it wasn't something they did wrong or, you know, were necessarily trying to do to me, but. Growing up, I always heard that cost too much, that won't work, can't do that, right?

There was never enough money for anything, but, but, you know, the thing, you know, cigarettes and things like that, right? Like they always had money for that. Gas is always too expensive. The rent was always too expensive. And what I realized was I had that in me and I went to buy a van, right? Like I had bought one at the beginning of COVID before things went crazy, just before COVID.

It was like 35, 000 bucks, right? Very reasonable. You know, 18 months after that, during COVID, I went and bought two more and they were almost 60, 000. And I was like, there's no way they're worth that. But what I got to thinking about a couple days later was like, I'm an idiot. Because if I don't want to spend 60, 000 for the van, it's not that.

It's a 1, 000 a month payment, right? So by not wanting to pay a 1, 000 a month payment, it's costing me 000 in revenue that I'm not going to be able to get. So right then I realized that I had a broken mindset and I was going to do [00:06:00] anything in my power to fix that. And it started by taking it, becoming curious, right?

Reading books, going to events, seeking out mentors, listening to people smarter than me and podcasts. Really, podcasts really opened my whole mind to, you know, successful people. And it is as simple as that sound. It really does starts to, uh, grease the wheels in your mind and change your mindset. And all these gurus that are out here and all the things that will, number one thing that, that they may disguise or you may not realize they're selling you is a mindset.

They can help you fix your minds that take credit for, they charge you for it, but you really don't need a guru to help you fix your mind. You just have to make your mind up and decide that day is the day that I am changing. I don't know the answers. I don't have the answers. I will seek the answers out and like in the Bible, ask and ye shall read.

Receive, see, and we shall find. When you start looking for the answer, they mysteriously show up. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And that's literally all about mindset. That's the problem, you 

Jason Phillips: know, Billy, with mindsets is they [00:07:00] cloak themselves in logic, broken mindsets. That's too expensive, but we're asking the wrong question.

It's not how much does it cost? It's in that case, it's what am I missing out on by not spending this money with your van question, right? And switching to an investment. Absolutely. And some people will say it's an unlimited mindset. Surplus mindset or whatever it is, but man, that's a key. And what's crazy is we can see limited mindsets in others, but we can't see them in ourselves.

You know, I literally, maybe you've been through the same thing. I've literally went through a time and I still pray this prayer from time to time, but I literally went through a time where I prayed every day, God, I want you to open up my thinking, help me think bigger, help me to see my own limitations.

Man, that's a great, that's a great, that's a great story. So, you know, so before that, back in the day, I guess you were striving to meet payroll, right? And then you recognized you had a limited mindset, which kudos to you, man, for doing that. So along, along this change, what, what personal sacrifices have you, you know, had to make along the way?

Billy Cline: All of them, right? You [00:08:00] know, it didn't. It really kind of got bad there for a while financially. And when you mentioned personal sacrifices, the ultimate personal sacrifice to me would be divorce, right? Or losing my spouse over these types of things. And, you know, in a marriage finances are very important, right?

And I was taking money out of our personal account to make payroll sometimes and all the things, and I wasn't communicating that with my spouse. And. I was ashamed, right, of the fact that number one, I had maybe stuck my head neck out too far or that I was a failure. I wasn't doing enough to, you know, um, to do whatever it would take to make payroll.

So I would write the checks to payroll and I would slowly pull it back in. And my wife was trusting me to do the finances and all things. And that really led to some tough conversations and some tough moments. In my marriage, right? And, you know, shined a light into who I was, who I wanted to be. And that wasn't, you know, if that was who I had to be a successful business person to hide things from my wife, not worth the sacrifice there.

It's not worth [00:09:00] that. And, you know, that probably was a big catalyst. Into, you know, me setting in a quiet place and wondering to myself, you know, what I should do, what's next, how do I overcome this? And a lot of times when you have these realizations, if you haven't already met someone or have a mentor or someone to speak to, kind of on an island by yourself, because you don't know what you don't know, right?

And you don't know that you can be successful in what you're doing. You know, the biggest, one of the biggest reasons we weren't successful for so long is because I didn't know I was a price strike, right? Like it's the age old thing. Why does it for this much? I'll do it for a little bit less. Right. And when you're a solo guy, you know, working out of your truck or out of your own garage or whatever, you can get away with that for a while.

You can, you know, you can make a bit of a living doing that because you don't have any overhead or any other expenses. But at a certain point, you know, when you got, you look up, Oh, now I've got eight people and I'm still doing it the same way. We say you can build a busyness 

Jason Phillips: with low GP, but you're not [00:10:00] going to build an organization and get out of, you know, and get out of contractor prison that way.

You know, the story, one of the things, Billy, that's passionate for me is, you know, I don't want to help people scale their business. Well, I do, but really what I want to do is elevate. Because there's plenty of people that have scaled their business and burned their home life, burned their health. And you're, you know, you're smart enough to that.

You've realized that, you know, at before it was too late or early on or whatever. But you know, my business caused a lot of stress in my marriage and my wife is, thank God, she's a champ and very patient and, but there, it has been the ruin of many relationships and it's sad. And I hate to see that. Ought not to be that way.

Right. 

Billy Cline: So it doesn't have to, it doesn't have to be, and the biggest issue is if you have a spouse that loves you and believes in you, right, like my wife has always had my back, but what happened, especially in that time I was mentioning earlier is it erodes that trust, right? Like that's a good way just to, to lose all the trust, but all these little things, you know, they [00:11:00] believe in you so much, and then it's just negativity.

It's just problems. It's just financial issues. So it erodes that trust and eventually, you know, it gets to a point where you can't ever get it back. Luckily, I never totally lost that. And, you know, we turned things around and, you know, now my wife's my biggest cheerleader and supporter and fan and, you know, blindly follows me, you know, through whatever.

But my wife is also my biggest secret weapon, right? And all this, because her gut feelings have made me and lost me more money than anything else in my life. It made me more money when I listened to it. And it lost me more money when I went against it, right? That's usually when something bad happens.

Words intuition is a very powerful tool if you happen to have that in your life. So 

Jason Phillips: you could have stayed with the status quo of how you had been doing everything and it had been working. Maybe it wasn't like sustainable. It was obviously sustainable for a number of years. But, and you went through this moment of, wow, I've got a limiting mindset and you all of a sudden get real hungry for [00:12:00] learning, right?

Along the way, have there been any significant, you know, setbacks or obstacles that made you feel like, you know, Man, I don't know if I'm good enough. I don't know if I can overcome this. 

Billy Cline: Yeah, for sure. And it was the awakening for me started to happen with my mindset and opening up my eyes to the fact that the culture wasn't where we needed to be.

You know, just all the things that go along with bad days, right? Like someone couldn't cash their check or whatever, right? It was always, you know, something. And it was, you know, along that time when I decided that I couldn't do everything, right? Like, you reach the limit of what you can manage as one person, right?

And at that point in time, I needed to start working and worrying about leadership and how to do this. And I kind of marked time, right? Like, in history, we talk about B. C. and A. D., right? Like, before Christ and Whatever. And in my business, I have a mark in the stand and that's when I hired Dan, right? Like I hired Dan.

Dan [00:13:00] was my, he is my, he's still here. He's my operations manager. And Dan started to take on, he took on a lot more than he needed to, but he started to take on anything in the business that was not a revenue, revenue, revenue. Generating product or project, right? Like whatever it was, there's hundreds of things every day.

And when I was able to get that off my plate and put it on Dan, you know, looking up insurance and just setting things up and all the things, it freed me up to start focusing on the thing. And one of the, I don't know where I came up with the. This revelation in my life, but one of the things that we started doing was working off of a framework, right?

So I knew that I wasn't priced right. And I knew that, you know, I was going to be stuck wherever I was at until we started generating more revenue, but not just necessarily revenue, but profit. And I went to an event Tommy Mello put on. I think it was his second or third big event that he had ever put on.

And I heard this woman speak. Her name was Megan Lyke. She was an accountant and whatever. And also Ellen Rohr. I don't know if the listeners are familiar with Ellen Rohr, but she's the legend in the home service space as [00:14:00] an accountant, right? Like, that's a thing. But they were all talking about gross profit and all things.

Your P& L's all kind of new to me, right? Like all these things that I'm starting to learn about. So I started learning about that. So I wouldn't recommend anybody do this blindly, but I went home and I raised my prices 40%. I just went into my price book, adjust the prices, bulk edit, 40 percent apply to all.

And I closed my eyes and grabbed my tea and suddenly things started to get a little better. And what was interesting, I've always been afraid of raising our, we're all afraid to raise our prices because we think that, you know, the, the customers aren't going to buy, but. Customers don't buy or not buy because of your price.

They buy or not buy because they either see or don't see the value in what you're trying to do for them, right? And when I, it was just all these things, all culmination of learning how to sell better, learning how to price better, learning how to be helpful instead of salesy, right? All these things just all started to come together.

Profit really does cure all, you know, when you start having a little bit of money left over, you know, you can start to pay things. Frameworks I was talking [00:15:00] about were helpful in us kind of coming out of the wilderness, so to speak. I still use that term around here because we would, a framework for me is basically an outline, right?

Like. So the framework for payroll or the framework for sales, right? And at the top of the outline, you have the subject sales, and you have Roman numeral one, two, three, and four. What is the bare minimum thing that I can put in there to work with, right? So we, growing a business on your cashflow is incredibly difficult because there's always something that needs financial attention without, you know, investing, don't want injecting money in your business or a loan or whatever.

Doing it on your cashflow is really hard. But we would do orbits around the business with the leftover cash flow. And we would spend a little bit on everything. It took us a long time. We would spend just a little bit on everything, every orbit around. If we spent too much on marketing, we didn't have enough sales guys to back it up.

If we spent too much on sales, we didn't have enough marketing to keep all the sales guys busy, all the things. So we would just continue to orbit the business with our money and pay a little bit here, pay off a little something that was nagging us or [00:16:00] whatever, and just keep paying things off as we went.

And, you know, making 1 percent improvements a day. And over time, now things are much bigger and much better. We still have that philosophy of trying to make things 1 percent better per day. But today that 1 percent is a much larger piece, uh, at 1 percent than it was then because the whole thing is much larger,...

Jason Phillips: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Contractor Freedom Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Phillips. This show exists to help small business owners like you escape the tyranny of Contractor Freedom and enter the bliss of Contractor Freedom so you can have the Time, Money, and Freedom to Live Your Life With Purpose Beyond Your Business.

As a certified human behavior consultant in DISC personality styles and motivators, I'll be sharing with you skills for life, love, leadership, and business. I'll also be connecting you with experts that can help you scale your business and your life. So if you want to build the business and life of your dreams, then you are in the right place.

Let's go.

Jason Phillips: Hello Contractors, we've got a great episode for you today. I have with me today Mr. Joe Covarrubias. He is the, the shy, quiet type. No, for those of you that know Joe, no, he's not the shy, quiet type. Joe's our VP and he has been, training the salespeople at our home improvement company for, I [00:01:00] think, eight years now.

Eight years. And so we're going to learn some insights from Joe so that you can take your sales organization to higher levels. Hey Joe, welcome to the show today. 

Joe Covarrubias: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. I always love Visiting with you on a different level other than a boss employee relationship.

I love just sharing and chatting. So thank you for having me. 

Jason Phillips: I'm glad you were able to take some time out of VP prison. No. So you've, you know, you've trained quite a few salespeople. And the reason we're doing this episode today is because so many of our business owner friends.

are at the place where they've hired their first salesperson and the new salesperson for whatever reason can't seem to close the deal like the business owner. And I thought we might diagnose for them some possible things of what could be going on. So, you know, what would be the first thing, you know, if a guy comes in, Hey Joe, my new salesperson, he's not closing deals like I was.

Can you help me diagnose it? You know, what's the first thing you would look at? 

Joe Covarrubias: Well, the first thing I would look at [00:02:00] is, you know, I've been real fortunate to kind of go on this journey with you of the behavior profiles. And when I first started as a sales manager here at Phillips, I didn't have, I wasn't as educated as I was, and I was just hiring guys who had the gift of gap, you know, just sales guys, right?

But as I've been along on this journey with you, With regard to behavior profile, that'd be the first question I ask. What is this guy's, is he in a seat that, is he in the right seat? I mean, be great guy. He may be a, his, it is this profile may be a sales profile, but it could be a long sales cycle. There's different sales.

And here at Philips, you know, we work, we try to nurture a one call close environment. And there's a certain profile that. That does that. So if they're not closing OTS on the spot, that's probably the first place up. 

Jason Phillips: Is the personality profile. Interesting. Something near and dear to my heart. Yeah, exactly.

You know, it makes me think about if we look at external things and we look at like sports. Right. You know, there's a typical physique of someone who's winning medals in swimming. 

Joe Covarrubias: Right. 

Jason Phillips: And [00:03:00] you know, from their height, their leg length versus their upper body length. And then their lungs. This is the same thing for like marathon runners.

Sure. And let's say basketball players or sumo wrestlers or boxers. Right. Or it's like in any professional sport for, let's say individual sports for now, there are. Some typical physiques or body makeups that put you at an advantage automatically. The other guys can still outwork you and work harder than you, but there's things that give you the edge.

And it's kind of like that, it's like personalities. And you know, I'll never forget when one of the times that this really hit me. Hit home to me was when we were initially teaching the team how to knock on the door and, you know, and our, one of the things we want to do is we show up with a clipboard with our paper, right?

And it's got, you know, it's got both property owners on it, typically a husband and a wife, and we don't know who's answering the door. But in a scenario, you know, if the husband answers the door and our paperwork says that we're supposed to meet with [00:04:00] John and Jane, then we need to, you know, say, well, Hey, Mr.

Krubitsch, I see I'm supposed to be meeting with a you and Jane, is Jane available? And that question, when I was working with people that had the wrong personality style, that question scared the crap out of them. 

Joe Covarrubias: It can, it, if you don't have the right profile, it can be uncomfortable. 

Jason Phillips: But it's such a simple.

Joe Covarrubias: It's simple, you know, with a with ourselves, there's a series of what we call soft. And every, in our last, at our last boot camp that we had here, that you guys were at the boot camp, you remember us talking about trying to get three yards at a time, and, or three and a half yards at a time.

And throughout the sales, at the end of each, let's just call it a step, there's a soft close, and that's your three yards. And your first soft close is getting both people at the table. That's their full focus of all owners. That's the first soft close and if you start your appointment or you start your set off or whatever you call it, without being able to get that first commitment, the other six commitments are gonna be really tough.

Because at the end, you're [00:05:00] gonna ask them to get on your schedule. And if you can't ask for the for the second party, it's going to be real hard to ask for a 40, 000 interior, you know? Yeah, 

Jason Phillips: exactly. So, you know, you've hit on something else, is if we don't line up a great appointment, if we can't get there, if we can't get their focus, the kids are running around, or they're distracted by taking, you know, their animal, or a phone call.

If we can't have their focus, it's going to be hard to get any commitments to get the project done, to trust us, to want it our way. You know, our value, all of that. 

Joe Covarrubias: It is, and you know, the beautiful thing about, you know, our workflow here at Phillips is, which you quoted it today to the leadership team, it's reinforcement.

You know, we start that process of getting both parties there as soon as the customer calls in. And by the time we knock on the door, whether it's that day, many times it's the same day, which guys prefer because they're ready to buy if it's a same day appointment. We reinforce that importance. The importance of having all parties.

Jason Phillips: So what, Joe, what are some, let's say you hire a sales guy and we're in this plays into the, why your new [00:06:00] guy isn't closing like he should. What are some telltale signs on day one or week one that this guy or gal really, we're not, we say salesmen, but saleswomen do really well in this industry as well.

What are some early warning signs that you shouldn't ignore? Okay. 

Joe Covarrubias: I do things, I probably do things a little bit. It may be, and it may come across as harsh. What I do is when I feel like I have a strong candidate to join the superstars here at Philips, I invite them on Friday to come in. That's our, that's a sales meeting day right now.

And to just join the sales meeting, help the guys. At that Friday meeting, I introduce them to their first script, that doorknock. And I go over the script with them. I actually let them video me. I have them record me, and basically what I tell them is to learn it on Friday, love it on Saturday, and be able to live it on Sunday.

Because I'm not teaching them a task, I'm teaching them a way of life throughout their career here at Phillips. And I tell them they have until 9 o'clock Monday morning. They're welcome to call [00:07:00] me over the weekend. They're welcome to, and I remember they're walking away with a video recording in the actual script.

There have been a number of times where I've let the candidate go at nine o'clock because he did not study the script. It may seem a little harsh, but you know, right, right now, I think the last Facebook live we did, we talked about the cost per lead in those assets. You know, before we start sinking 1, 000 1, 500 a day in these candidates, we have to know they're going to do the homework.

First sign. If they don't get that first script over the weekend. 

Jason Phillips: Will they put in the work? 

Joe Covarrubias: Will they 

Jason Phillips: put in the work. So, Joe, are you giving them like a whole book? Tell everybody, I know what you're giving them but, I mean, are you giving them a whole script book? What, how big is this? I'm 

Joe Covarrubias: giving one, I should count the words, I don't know.

It's like 10 sentences. Yeah, it's just 10 sentences. The purpose of that script is basically to get the prospect's time and attention. Yeah. That's all we're trying to do. 

Jason Phillips: So, so you're saying that if a guy shows up and he hasn't given it the effort over the weekend at 9 o'clock, you're cutting him loose.

Because if he's I pay him for the day. Of course. I pay him for the 

Joe Covarrubias: day, but It's I have our training measured by the hour of [00:08:00] the day. They, there's a certain number. I don't do days and I don't do weeks. I do hours because there is a countdown that first hour and there is no time to waste. 

Jason Phillips: Cause you need to have them running their first appointment.

How soon? 

Joe Covarrubias: In three weeks. I went through writing their first contract in three weeks. In three weeks. Okay. And so the training is real flux. There's some ride alongs, there's scripting, there's homework. There is, when I say, let's just say, I say, we got to get them going. That includes the time they sleep.

That's just, that's the, those are working hours. That's how many hours we have. Right. Because we, you know, I say we, you, you're invested in a marketing team. They are doing their job. Sure. We have the leads for us to issue and they're on a clock too. I mean, we're, it's April 4th. We're in the middle of it.

There's no time to waste. That's right. Yeah. 

Jason Phillips: So on the opposite end, okay. Well, on that end, some telltale signs early on is they didn't put in the work. What if they put in the work and they still can't get it? 

Joe Covarrubias: Can you give me a what, for instance? 

Jason Phillips: Say they're really struggling with learning a script.

Cause you know, you said learn it, [00:09:00] love it, live it. Right? So you've met a few people that no matter how hard they tried, they were just struggling with scripts. And how did that work out? 

Joe Covarrubias: It doesn't work out well. . I mean, in, they might be great guys, they might have experience, they might have all of that, but the, what we call TBW, the Phillips Way is that we're scripted in our sales process.

I can't write along with every one of the guys and our two sales managers can't write along with the guys on every, so we have some resources that help us find out if they're following that script. It's a world class presentation, so it is a script. 

Jason Phillips: So Joe, I mean a script, 

Joe Covarrubias: does 

Jason Phillips: that mean 

Joe Covarrubias: it. They sound like robots?

No, not at all. See, Jason, what you have to understand is that this is a four, this is a 420 billion industry. And a third of that money is spent to go back and redo which previously been done according to the Harvard Joint Center on Housing. Indeed. Jason, I just gave you a script. Did it sound like one?

Jason Phillips: No, it didn't. 

Joe Covarrubias: It was a familiar one. But it's conversational. I teach them how to be conversational. I teach [00:10:00] them how to use voice inflections maybe do A few theatrics with their glasses. There are some things that we teach to give a world class presentation. 

Jason Phillips: Okay. So, we've talked about, you know, couple early warning signs.

What about, this is probably goes for all positions. How about they're showing up for work late on their first week? 

Joe Covarrubias: That has, that, that is, that's a no. It just, it doesn't work. What about 

Jason Phillips: they have drama emergencies and they have to leave work early? The dog, the cat, the mother in law the wife, the whoever.

Joe Covarrubias: You know, some of, you know, we, we have a lot of influences here at Phillips, a lot of, and you've talked to them about them before. Brian Tracy, Zig Ziglar, Dave Ramsey's one. And in his book, Entree Leadership, there's like almost a whole chapter on drama. We just don't do drama here. 

Jason Phillips: It's not for everybody.

That's right. That's right. That's right. So, you know, if we were to break down some keys to success, you know, we already talked about, you brought up the right personality and maybe we should stick on that for a second. Okay. Is that's the first key today is the right personality. Now, when we're looking for [00:11:00] salespeople we know that our buyers, our prospects are most likely going to make a pretty quick decision.

And we also know that there are, we call them Ravens, the unscrupulous contractors willing to say and do anything to get the contract that are out there trying to steal that or get that and get those customers and not treat them well. We don't have a lot of time to close the sale. So when it comes to, you know, personalities, and we're talking disc personality styles here, what styles are you looking for?

Joe Covarrubias: Okay, for a number of years, I really focused on a D. That takes a lot of coaching because They can sometimes come across abrasive or something. Well, you know, the pros and cons. Are you 

Jason Phillips: saying I'm abrasive? No, 

Joe Covarrubias: I'm not saying that at all, sir. That you heard it right here on the Contractor Freedom.

No you're not, but there's a D there's a DI. We'll call it what we call a dynamo. And then there's an ID, which is an influencer persuader, which is one of my favorites. Those three profiles are really prone to succeed in a one call close [00:12:00] environment. A D? A D I and an I D. Now, there's pros and cons to all of those.

The D, like I said, can come across a little abrasive. The I D can maybe have a little challenge with follow up. There's just, they all have their own little, they all have their own little, but if you know the profile, you studied the profile, you know how to coach them through that. 

Jason Phillips: Yeah. Okay.

Got it. So, you know, 

Joe Covarrubias: I think I should say that every, all three of those have the letter D. D in it, the dominance factor, whether the D's first or the D second, those profiles have the makeup to ask for the order on the first call. 

Jason Phillips: And the D's gotta be above the middle or the energy line. Right? Yeah. So, you know, we've got our contractor friends are contractor, freedom family.

Yeah. Friends, there's a lot of the bus, a lot of the business owners that are currently doing the sales. Are not ID people. . A lot of, some of them are. Some of you guys are. Gals are, some are scs, css. Iss. And what advice would you give to them if they're the [00:13:00] ones currently doing the selling?

Joe Covarrubias: I would definitely, number one, I what I've learned with our contractor Freedom Friends is that some of them really haven't found or adopted a sales process that fits still okay. Or fits their workflow. I would say if you're in a position to, to start looking for your. Salesman saleswoman to, to consider those profiles that we discussed.

But the scs and the, and what was the other one? The SCS and the Z. 

Jason Phillips: The S. The scs and the iss. Okay. 

Joe Covarrubias: Very sweet, talkative, supportive people, right? Yes. And they will, I feel like one could sell with those. It may take a little longer. But the people will fall in love with them.

They'll fall in, you know, their prospects will fall in love with them for sure. But the, and it's not to say that their D isn't like at a 30 or a 40. It just takes a little bit more for them to muster up that, that courage to, to ask for that sale, because, you know, below The midline starts to drain us, and it starts to become uncomfortable, and you get to where you're not appreciating what you're doing.

Yep, yep. And so, but there's a [00:14:00] lot of role play. And that's the beauty of having a sales process, is that You can practice it. You can just practice it. And time after time after time. And so, you don't have to come up with something different every time you knock on the door. You know where you're going.

You know what you're saying. I have a new recruit now. I have two that I'm really excited about. One of them, one of them asked me just last night. We happened to both be at the office after hours, and he said he's really excited. And he says, I'm drowning. I'm having a little trouble with the follow up.

That is 100 percent net. And so what we've done is we've, he and I both have agreed to be at the office. I told him, hey man, I'll roll up my sleeves with you. We'll be here at the office at eight o'clock. And we have a couple of other new recruits. And so they're all coming in at eight o'clock. And I said, okay, this is what we're going to do now.

This is what we're going to do now. So the same thing with the ISs. You've got to get to the office early and practice and reinforce. And you can be an IS. The fact that you're an I, [00:15:00] you can talk to people. But with the right script, it doesn't come across pushy. And just like it's saying, Hi, my name is Joe.

I'm with Philips. When you get down to the closing table, would you like to get on the schedule? It's just a script. It's just a question. And the worst possible thing they can say is no. Is no. 

Jason Phillips: Let's see. I think there was a famous guy who said, you know, you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take.

Who said that? Was it Michael Jordan or was it Wayne Gretzky? 

Joe Covarrubias: Maybe Wayne Gretzky. 

Jason Phillips: Maybe both of them. So, you know, I've got a piece of advice for...

Jason Phillips: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Contractor Freedom Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Phillips. This show exists to help small business owners like you escape the tyranny of Contractor Freedom and enter the bliss of Contractor Freedom so you can have the Time, Money, and Freedom to Live Your Life With Purpose Beyond Your Business.

As a certified human behavior consultant in DISC personality styles and motivators, I'll be sharing with you skills for life, love, leadership, and business. I'll also be connecting you with experts that can help you scale your business and your life. So if you want to build the business and life of your dreams, then you are in the right place.

Let's go.

Jason Phillips: Hello, contractors. I ignored these resources. For so many years, and I kept hearing about all the amazing resources that the PCA had available for its members. And even though I've been a member for a long time, I had been a member for a long time, I never really took the time to check these things out because I was always busy running my [00:01:00] business.

Well today, I've got great news. We're opening the closet turning on the light in today's episode We're diving in with the PCA's own Janelle Roedl the PCA member advocate I want you to stick around till the end because I guarantee you're gonna discover one or more multiple resources that you can use To solve your business challenges, stand on the shoulders of the giants that have gone before you, save you time, money, and headaches.

Janelle, welcome to the show.

Janell Roedl: Thank you, Jason. I am honored and it's a pleasure to be here.

Jason Phillips: Well, I am so glad that we connected. Janelle, would you, would you take a moment to share with everybody, you know, what's your role? What, what is, what is the member coordinator at the PCA?

Janell Roedl: Absolutely, I'd love to. So my title now is Member Advocate and I kind of gravitate more towards that title because it really shows that my role is on the side of the painting contractor. Not [00:02:00] PCA, but I'm here to create a premier experience for PCA members. , we do that in a variety of ways by providing resources and connecting our contractors with those resources.

We have so many that it's often a challenge. One of the biggest challenges is, Finding those resources. So it's my role to help do that. , to answer questions, troubleshoot just problems, issues, connect with you. Take feedback. I would love any feedback on, the PCA, the resources we offer, the member experience, because I just want to make it better.

My heart is service. I love people. I love connecting with

Jason Phillips: Well, you know, I, I love, I love that. And I appreciate you sharing that. One of the things that's frustrating is when you're working within as a business owner, or let's just say as a consumer at all, you're working with an organization or you're working with, with a, with a company and. You're like, who do I call for this?

Who do I call for that? I mean, just recently my company, we had been working with another company that was going to deliver some [00:03:00] stuff to us and, some digital goods to us. And they had so many departments and people, we didn't really have a single point of contact. And so hearing you just say, look, that's my job. So I think that is, 

Janell Roedl: Yeah. I'm your girl.

Jason Phillips: so before the end of this episode, you guys are going to learn how to get in touch with Janelle so she can answer, any questions, that you have. So let's, you know, the, the, the PCA, the Painting Contractors Association, for those of you that aren't familiar, significant anniversary this year?

Janell Roedl: There is, this year marks our 140th anniversary and that just blows my mind. We have a hard time thinking in generations like that. So, yeah, been around a long time, as you mentioned, standing on the shoulders of the giants that have come before us, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We just grow over 140 years and that's like one of, the big benefits of aligning with the PCA is aligning painting contractors with an organization that has 140 years of legacy behind

Jason Phillips: that is, that

Janell Roedl: we're excited.

Jason Phillips: So, you know, let's, let's talk about the vision. Like, , if so [00:04:00] many contractors, I still meet contractors who don't even know, painting contractors who don't even know who the PCA is 

Janell Roedl: Right. We still say it's the best kept secret

Jason Phillips: would, I would agree with that. Why does the PCA exist?

Janell Roedl: great question. it exists very similar to what you told me your mission is, to elevate the painting industry, to bring professionalization to the painting industry. In the very early days, it was more designed to advocate for, painting contractors, as we have evolved and grown. And more recently, the PCA is here to discover the challenges and the pain points of our painting contractors.

and meet those needs and we do that through educational resources painter training and i'm sure we're going to get into our resources today, but meeting the needs of our painting contractors in the world today

Jason Phillips: you got me thinking, . you've been doing this for a while with the 

Janell Roedl: A little bit

i'm still learning i'm eight

Jason Phillips: that's, a significant amount of time. In your mind, [00:05:00] what do you think is the, I don't want to say best kept secret, but if there's one thing about the PCA and you're like, I run into so many contractors who don't know about X, Y, Z, and they need to know about X, Y, Z.

What, is there something that sticks out in your mind?

Janell Roedl: I have a handful of like my favorite resources or benefits with the PCA and the first one is one that I've just mentioned. It's aligning with that mission and that legacy. I think that's one of the best kept secrets. With your PCA membership, you gain access to the PCA logo and marketing materials. so Aligning in where you invest your money, your time, and using those resources like the logo package where people recognize you as a PCA member and, associate you with that legacy and that professionalization, craftsmanship and integrity.

So that's one of the best. resources and reasons I think a painting contractor would want to align with the PCA. Some of my other top favorites are, [00:06:00] painter training. Painter training is

Jason Phillips: Can we elaborate on that for a moment what what is entailed there

Janell Roedl: So painter training, was designed to, for the painting contractor to be able to train their crew.

 It's seven courses. They complete the courses on their own time, video courses. They take a quiz and earn a certificate. it's standardized so that you as the painting contractor have confidence that your crew has been trained well. The painters have feel this endearment towards you as a painting contractor because you've invested in their professionalization.

And that helps with employee retention, which everyone is concerned about in these times. And that all comes free with your membership, which is why it's at the top of my list because it's one of those things you get for free just by being

Jason Phillips: So what if you know, what if what if the painters are spanish speakers?

Janell Roedl: Great question. So, four, I believe four of those seven courses have been translated into Spanish because we do have, we want [00:07:00] to get into some of those realms like women and the Spanish speaking community. We have a Spanish initiative that we're launching in the next two years with PPG, to bring more Spanish resources.

So, right now they haven't all been translated into Spanish, but they will be within the next two years, in order to meet that need, because it's definitely a

Jason Phillips: So if i'm a business owner, i'm a member I can train all I can put all of my painters through this training for no additional charge.

Janell Roedl: Right? I know. It's crazy. If you were a non member and purchasing those courses, they would be 99 per course per crew person. so right

Jason Phillips: Yeah, it's just

Janell Roedl: well

Jason Phillips: for sure for sure okay, so I I know that you know, I i'm a fan of hiring for character and training for skill and hiring, let's just say hiring for fit. And, but you've got to have a training program. The reason that so many people, especially when they're newer in business, they're like, I need someone with experience.

I need someone with experience. Well then you get someone with experience, might be bad experience, [00:08:00] but there's a pretty high likelihood they have bad habits or at least habits and ways of ingrained habits that don't, mesh with the way you need to run your business. And so, I love this that you, so now you can focus more on finding the right person, put them through a training program.

How long does it take to go through that training program?

Janell Roedl: that's a great question. It is like, go at your own pace. Seven courses, I don't know what the average, I need to look that up. What's the average time that it takes someone to complete a course? I'm thinking it's like an hour and a half to two hours per course.

Jason Phillips: So something they could do within a week's time or so, or do, do a course a day for a while for a week or so. Okay. Wow. That is.

Janell Roedl: It's a great tool for onboarding, but it really has a lot of depth that even experienced painters can still

Jason Phillips: So, I mean, it's not like you guys just one day said, Hey, let's make a training program. And. mean, you guys, I'm assuming, I'm gonna, I guess I'm asking, created this program with using the depth of knowledge that, that the PCA has for all of these years has developed [00:09:00] about best practices and the way to do things?

Janell Roedl: Yes. So, yeah, we have an education committee. and prior to me coming on board here, they created this, with the education committee. like you said, building off, they used painting contractors to develop this. It's professional, professionally done. yeah. So, high quality, And you can track their progress

Jason Phillips: would this program, Be applicable. Let's just say that someone's hiring a project manager or a salesperson. That's not exactly hands on. Would it be beneficial for someone like that to

Janell Roedl: I do believe it would be. so the seven courses are trade best practices, interiors level one, two, and three, and interior level one, or exterior one, two, and three. so I feel like it could be great for also project managers, sales people, because they'll be involved in all of the aspects of project management.

training the crew, checking the status of the project, they cover, well, some of our other resources cover cost and estimating, but [00:10:00] I think for them having a good insight on what their crew is able to do, what they've been trained on, what they can expect, would only add value to the whole team.

Sure,

Jason Phillips: me everything that overdrive includes. no,

Janell Roedl: first off, I noticed it doesn't include you, Jason. Yeah. Yeah. I did not see your podcast on there. Why is

Jason Phillips: that a while back and we just never reconnected. So he reached out to me

Janell Roedl: Yeah. Well, maybe we should

Jason Phillips: I, I, that sounds like a great plan.

Janell Roedl: So, Overdrive is our, it's like the Netflix of the painting industry is like what we like to call it. It's our education and entertainment platform. We have, I think now we're at like 700 hours, and growing of content, that comes and this is why it's another one of my favorites is because it's also free with your membership.

so you get to on your own time. explore things ranging from, cost and estimating, sales and marketing, [00:11:00] building a team, hiring, as well as, content from previous expos and other events you can watch on there. we bring in our, industry partner podcasts, so some of those are, On the trade itself, and some of those are on business building, so it's just a great place to go and binge worthwhile content,

Jason Phillips: know, podcasts and content. So it's so popular. And to hear you say it's the Netflix for the painting industry. I haven't heard that before. So I know there's a lot of guys.

Janell Roedl: Like, it just clarifies exactly what it is and why you'd want to go there.

Jason Phillips: So, hey, contractors, if you're not, you know, if you're not partaking of these resources and, you know, like Janelle said, there's, things about the trade on, on, on overdrive as well as about business stuff on overdrive as business

Janell Roedl: Mm hmm.

Jason Phillips: So anything, if, you are, growth minded.

And you are a forever student, like you should be, then, this is a great place, a great place. So, you know, one of the other things I, I [00:12:00] think something that I still, you know, appreciate more, I don't want to say more. Okay. I'm going to say that I appreciate, well, maybe it is more because in the past I didn't really partake of 

Janell Roedl: hmm.

Jason Phillips: talk about the networking. What, what are the networking opportunities for the PCA?

Janell Roedl: So, I'm glad you asked that because this year the PCA, the board, they're kind of going into a year of really focusing on events. So events is one of the best places. And I don't know when this podcast will be released, but we're moving into our biggest event of the year, Expo, to be held in Orlando, Florida, at The Dolphin.

We're super excited, so at events is the best place. to do this networking. We're one of the best places. It's like the top one to two percent of the painting contracting, painting contracting world is The cream of the crop is at these [00:13:00] events and opportunities galore.

So evening events hosted by the sponsors, PPG, Bayer, Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore. And then throughout the day we're doing mind melds and breakout sessions and having breakfast and lunch together. we really feel that as a community we grow together. So. It's the old mindset that we're competing and we can't be friends and we can't share and we're an island.

I think pretty much across the board, most people see that value in the networking opportunities. yeah.

Jason Phillips: You know, once they've been,

Janell Roedl: go

Jason Phillips: okay, so I invite every painter that I run into to the expo. And, and when you get to the expo and you run into all these people and all of a sudden they're like, their eyes are like huge open and they're like, oh my gosh. I can't believe I've missed out on this all these years and what it is is, you know, it's there, there's this thing called the immersion effect and it's, and it's, it's the, the reason why, learning is [00:14:00] more impactful when you're there in person.

I mean as, as great as overdrive is. you know, it's a different, let's just say the, well, the Super Bowl was recently, there's a different experience watching the Super Bowl on TV than there is being there with the crowd. And it's the same thing with online church or going to church in person, but there's this an immersion effect and it's, there is a

Janell Roedl: a synergy.

Jason Phillips: and.

That whole time you're not thinking about, while you're there, you're not thinking about the leads, you're not thinking about the payroll, or any of that, you are enveloped in how can I Make my business and my life better and you're collaborating with people that are maybe, in so many ways, they've been in, maybe their company's the same size or they've been in business the same amount of time.

But then there's going to be people that are ahead of you, people that are behind you and you're going to, you are going to learn. And I promise if you go to the expo, you will come back changed. And, my. The the bell I'm tolling is there's two events that you ought not to miss every year if you were in the painting, if you're in the painting business, one is the expo and two is our very own contractor freedom summit.

Those [00:15:00] are my two favorite events. And I believe what you can experience at those events can, can change your business and change your life. So

Janell Roedl: Yeah. This will be my first expo, so I'm excited and it'll be a whole new experience for me. So I'm going a lot by what, members, painting, contract, your experience that you just shared. but I, Your sharing reminded me of one of our stories. So Juan Vasquez is, a painting contractor and he lets us share his story.

So back in 2018, he attended his very first own expo. And at that time he was a small painting company with four. People under him, and he thought he was doing good, went to Expo, and like you said, eyes opened, and he was able to take a gold, you really just need one golden nugget, you don't have to consume all of it, like, you're gonna get a lot, but that one golden nugget, if you go home and apply it, can change everything, so he got his gold nugget, which was implementing systems, and in addition [00:16:00] to that, he like, networked the heck out of it and he said in his, conversation that he's, he's got a contact in every state, one in every state.

And that gives him confidence that no matter where he's at and what he's doing, he's

Jason Phillips: he could phone a friend if he needs, if he has a question, right?

Janell Roedl: And from there, he's transformed his business. He's grown. He's got, his own podcast. he's on the board. so yeah, it's amazing. The stories I hear of transformation that happens through the events and particularly

Jason Phillips: is, that is amazing. So, you know, we've got the, the, the training, there's the, there's the overdrive, then there's the events. Now there's, there's also, like benefits that you can offer to your employees, like healthcare. Can't you,

Janell Roedl: Yeah, there is. So, we began offering, health insurance. And what we found is, you know, those pain points with our painting contractors, this was one of them being able to, provide benefits for their employees, which it helps in retention. they just couldn't [00:17:00] afford some of the plans or couldn't qualify for some of them.

So we were able to leverage the, the size and the power of the PCA to be able to possibly get some packages, and prices that the painting contractors couldn't get on their own. It really depends on each person's state...

Jason Phillips: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Contractor Freedom Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Phillips. This show exists to help small business owners like you escape the tyranny of Contractor Freedom and enter the bliss of Contractor Freedom so you can have the Time, Money, and Freedom to Live Your Life With Purpose Beyond Your Business.

As a certified human behavior consultant in DISC personality styles and motivators, I'll be sharing with you skills for life, love, leadership, and business. I'll also be connecting you with experts that can help you scale your business and your life. So if you want to build the business and life of your dreams, then you are in the right place.

Let's go. 

Jason Phillips: Hello Contractors! I'm excited to be here with you today. I've got a very special guest with you with us here who you can see on the screen and you're going to, you're going to want to tune in till the end because we've got some, we've got some awesome info that's, that, That impacts you guys, so many of you guys who are using a particular software for running your contracting business.

I don't know if you [00:01:00] guys know who that is if, what it is, if not, yeah, you'll find out, but I've got a feeling most of you guys already know. I already know what I'm talking about here. We got the one and only, got Tanner Mullen with us here today. Tanner's not only, he's I don't know if I could call him a serial entrepreneur.

But he's definitely a visionary. He obviously, you like that? Okay, yeah,

he Not only is the owner of premium, painting, but also Dripjobs automation software for contractors. And not to mention, he's got the painting contractors group on Facebook, which has, more people in it than a population of China.

Tanner, he's a giver and he's an all around great guy if you haven't interacted with him online

And so Tanner, it's my pleasure to have you on today, man. 

Tanner Mullen: How are you doing? I was saying, I'm so glad he started a podcast, man. I think this was, long overdue. I respect you fully and, I'm just excited to see what you do with it. Contractor freedom, all the good stuff, man. I'm happy to be here. I really am an honor 

Jason Phillips: me as well. I feel the same way about you. I'm glad we got to connect. I think we've only met in person, maybe like one time in passing at a PCA event. And we we've been on a couple of podcasts together before. I think [00:02:00] on, I would like that. So I, one of the things, one of my goals, again, this isn't about me today, but.

One of my goals is I just, I want to build bridges. I feel like our industry is too fragmented and that's adding to the contractors, feeling like they're on an island. And I believe that a forward thinking people need to unify, build bridges, work together, and we can make this whole community a better place.

So that's one of the reasons I decided to have you on today. Hey Tanner, tell us, obviously you're the owner of Premium Painting. And am I, did I hear before that, that, you grew up in the paint business? Is that 

true? 

Tanner Mullen: Yeah, I did. Actually, my dad was a painter by trade and you know, just as a kid going on the job site with him.

I remember in eighth grade, everyone else had summer where they'd hang out with their friends and I had get up at six o'clock and. Grab your white Dickies and your painter's shirt that had blue tape on it from the day before. But you know, it was, it was interesting. I didn't resent it, but I was like, I will never do this again.

When I went off to college, got into the professional things like car sales, and I was really heavy into the restaurant industry. At [00:03:00] 19, I was a manager of a restaurant that I couldn't, I wasn't even old enough. To drink the alcohol that they were serving, you know, so that was interesting because people would look at me and be like, you're too young to be doing this.

And I, I just always work seriously, Jason, you know, it was always something to me having a kind of like up upbringing. I just knew that that was my way out and it was something I could just. Put my attention in and focus on. And in retrospect, I look at it as a blessing, like everything to have hit so many different sectors.

Many people know that, you know, I was in the restaurant industry. I got to a point where so many things I learned, ordering, learning how to deal with vendors, hiring, customer service, but what I think is so valuable, and we'll get into this later about software, Jason is, with the restaurant, having to manage the back of the house and the front of the house.

How often in your business? Are you managing the back of the house and the front of the house? Having to relate to the cooks, the busboys, the dishwashers, but then having to be able to switch gears and be able to communicate effectively with the servers, the hostess, the customers. And that skill set alone has just always been so [00:04:00] instrumental in how I handle my.

Developers with drip jobs and the customers, but also my front lines, right, salesperson, customers. It's just interesting just being able to kind of just relate to people. That's what I learned most. So went through the restaurant industry, got into sales. So I packaged so much. Customer service, you know, together with, with the restaurant.

Then I got into sales and I learned the art of negotiation. I learned the art of following up with leads. I learned the art of waking up and having to hunt for your pay with nothing in the pipeline and you're not getting paid unless you sell. That was interesting. Look, there was no cushion to fall back on.

If I don't sell, I don't eat, Jason. And then finally landing in life insurance, having to go knock doors. I learned the art of door knocking. I mean, all of these experiences, last but not least, I learned, you know, business and transactions and financing and all these things. And again, I can't attribute it to anything else, but God getting me ready for the painting business.

I don't know how I, that's how, that's what I landed on. [00:05:00] 

Jason Phillips: You know, it, it, it doesn't sound glorious, right? I don't think any of us, unless maybe most people don't grow up thinking, Oh, I dream of owning a painting business or being a contractor. It's like a fireman, a doctor, a lawyer, an astronaut, and then a contractor.

But it's amazing what you said. It's like, you look back and I'm like, dude, that's incredible. You've had all of these. different experiences that are just added to the opportunity you've got now and that you're making a difference in the industry. I love that. I didn't know a lot of that about you. I'm glad you shared that.

So before you got into the software business, by the way, the whole analogy to me, it's an analogy for you. It's reality of the. Background in the restaurant business. Man, that analogy, I can just see that's on contractors. That's real. And that front of the house and back of the house, that sales and marketing and production, that's real, man.

I love, 

Tanner Mullen: I love that. And this is to bring that even closer to home. I'm sitting in the line restaurant and I think, have you ever worked in a restaurant? No, no, never. Okay. So. [00:06:00] You know, the back Jason is these are the guys that bust their butts and the front of the house gets all the tips, right? You know, they get all the glory, but in some restaurants you have to earn the respect of the kitchen, right?

Whether you're a server or whether you're a manager and my things is is like I wanted to earn that respect. I wanted to be considered a leader in the kitchen. Even though I didn't know how to cook, they saw me as someone that didn't overwhelm them with tickets because I needed things done. To be able to ask for things in a respective way and not be demanding.

To manage their workload without them getting stressed out. To see an area that's weak, whether they needed to be prepped, something needed cleaned. For them to see that I'm willing to jump in with my team to get it done. And I do the same thing in my painting business. It's amazing. It's like, even though I own the business, I honestly try to earn the respect of my team.

And I don't just try to do it once. It's important to me to make sure that they understand that my head hasn't gotten too big. I'm still there with [00:07:00] them. If I go to a job site, I'm looking for trash to pick up. I'm aiding them. What do you need? Do you need something? Good. I'm there. That's kind of how I've, I've transitioned from that.

And I, and it's always served me well, just earning the respect of the teammates, trying to showcase to them that I'm no better than them in any regard. I just happened to have learned different things and took different risks and I need them in order to continue. 

Jason Phillips: Man, that is so inspiring. That is so inspiring.

I look at it this way. I was never a craftsman. I was never a painter. I literally painted one house as my first week in training and I had this experience. I'm like, okay, wow, this is not my thing. I love sales and marketing at the time, but we need each other. We don't need a company full of Jasons.

Everybody needs to play their part. If we're going to build a bigger future for us all, that's the way I look at it. But at the same time, Hey, I'm, we, we call it executive itis and we don't need any executive itis. I get out, I get out in the field occasionally, not as much as I really want to. And every time I do, it's like a reality check.

I'm like, I remember what it was like trying to deliver these promises, trying to make this [00:08:00] sale, knocking on these doors, and I don't want to be too far removed. from the real challenges and pains that my people deal with day in, day out. So congratulations to you on being connected. Sam, you're probably more connected with the front lines than I am.

I think that's a good thing. I 

Tanner Mullen: enjoy it to a certain degree. You know, I also want to give them autonomy and I don't want to have to be. When I do show up to make it clear what your intentions are when you go to the job. I think for me, there's a bunch of different focuses that could happen. You can go there and impart stress.

You can showcase, you know, flex your muscle and do all sorts of things. You know, I don't have those sorts of insecurities. I'm exactly who God made me to be. I'm in the position that I am because of how hard I worked. It wasn't handed to me. Everything's been earned. Nothing anyone can say that that will change that.

So when I go to the job site, I make sure that promises are being kept, but I also, the step further in my focus is to connect with these people that have been placed in my life. I want to connect with them. I want to pull them aside. It's funny, man. We'll go for a walk around the property that [00:09:00] whatever house I'm working at, we'll walk down the street, but we're doing a barn.

We walked up the hill and sat in the stalls. I just find time to pull eyes away and just, Hey, how's it going? How do you like working here? What do you think I could do better? What are you striving toward? These are things that I've done since the very beginning. And if you don't hear about it or talk about it as a leader, other people won't really understand how valuable this has been.

I'm sure you do the same stuff, but that's what the secret had been for me, at least of how I've been able to maintain consistent results. Now I'm not a major huge company, but what I can say is that I don't have to check the time sheets every morning. You know, that's an indicator of what I've been able to harness in my 

Jason Phillips: company.

When you have those types of interactions that you're describing and you leave, your people feel empowered, they feel valued, they feel heard. And rather than, man, I hope that guy never comes back out. I hope that never happens. You know, one of the things that I want, For me is that every interaction, even if I'm having to correct someone in every interaction, I want [00:10:00] my teammates to feel inspired and hope of a better future for us all.

After every everyone, I don't want anybody to ever think, man, Jason's, he's got his critical eye on me. I messed up or what he's critical. I really don't want that to be, I feel like we should be able to have open and honest conversations. But my job is to build people. And my philosophy is that, that when we build people, the people will build the business and the growth will come naturally if we build the people.

One of my favorite, and that's so 

Tanner Mullen: cool. I love hearing you say that. One of my favorite sayings is if I make your business, my business. Please make my business, your business. And I feel like it's a fair exchange and I think the right teammates value that. 

Jason Phillips: Wow. That's really nice. I would have to agree.

Obviously when you started your company, there was no, no drip jobs as a contractor, business owner, what. Like what gaps in technology did you see at the time? 

Tanner Mullen: Well, you know, what I realized was is that when I sold cars, I had a database and that made it easy to contact people [00:11:00] that I wanted to contact. At the time I wanted to contact them.

And when I got into the painting industry, I tried to find something like that, but it didn't seem like anybody really had a. Sales mindset when building their software from what I gathered, it was painters, nothing wrong with that, but not painters from that have been heavy in sales. So they built really cool painting related features and things like that.

But when I use the software, I'm like, this is still missing the critical component of nurturing leads. and Automations that make it easy for me. I'm not going to say this. Well, I guess I have to, I'm lazy, but I'm not lazy. Like I don't want to do work that I don't have to do that. I can get a computer to do for me.

And that's just, I guess the generation I grew up in is that we just understand that there's easier ways to do things and I'm going to find that way. So I kept hitting a roadblock. I'll tell you one of my strategies when I first started my business, Jason was to buy lead. Now, when people hear that, they cringe.

For me, of course I'm gonna buy leads. I came from car sales, life insurance. All I know is leads. I need leads in order to grow a business. Hello? And [00:12:00] you're telling me all I have to do is sign up for this program called HomeAdvisor, and they're gonna send me people that want painting jobs? Do you realize, Jason, that I was handed a stack of 200 potential leads?

That came in through the service department that I had to call and see if they wanted to upgrade their vehicle. And you're telling me that home advisor is going to send me someone that wants painting. And all I got to do is show up and give them a price. Are you kidding me? So for me, it was a no brainer, but what I found was is that when these leads would come in, of course, I would be charged right away and it would be like 70 bucks, a hundred bucks.

And I would be busy. I'd be driving, I'd be doing an estimate. I would be painting early on in my business. So the more time that goes by, of course, the less chance we have to get that customer on the phone. So I would call maybe like an hour or two hours after and thinking that like, they're still interested.

Like they submitted the information and I wouldn't be able to get ahold of them. I'd be like, well, what do I do now? Call again, call again. And maybe by that time they just got through with phone calls. They know, know what's coming and they kind of just [00:13:00] retract. So then I'd send an email thinking that, you know, they would.

Be interested in engaging through email and then even a text message. And I was doing all this manually and we're talking, I was getting leads. So I'd have to do this for every single lead that came through. That was the biggest bottleneck. It was organizing the leads, following up with the leads and advancing that lead through the pipeline, getting them to take the next action.

And then a. And me running around, painting, estimating, picking up paint, managing my crew. Oh, it just was, it was a, it was a hassle. And then on top of that, I had eight different applications. I was juggling, trying to make it all work. I 

Jason Phillips: wish that you had drip jobs when I started. I, man, I'm a pretty techno geek and I wrote my own CRM back in the day.

Microsoft servers and everything. Yeah, I did. It was great, but it wasn't cloud based and that's when I eventually got off of it. And wrote all kinds of code. I had various automations in there, but you got to remember. I started when most companies didn't even have a website. Okay. And the paint stores, most of them didn't even have computers or were just starting to computerize back in the nineties.[00:14:00] 

I'm showing my age here, but I feel like, you know, what you're seeing in the mindset you brought into this and Hey, it's great to have estimating software. It's important to have estimating software, but nothing happens until something is sold. Right. And we know it, it's the speed to lead is vital. It's almost like the game of conception only one.

And so getting that lead out there. 

Tanner Mullen: It's crucial. You got to understand, like, and I teach this, I say, you know, understand it from the customer perspective, right? You know, especially with these lead generators, these aggregators that, you know, they go on this website after seeing an ad, maybe they really wanted it done, or maybe the ad convinced them that it would be worth investigating.

Right. So they go through this. This questionnaire that has probably been psychologically evaluated by the top psychologists in, in the way human behavior works, that got them to step by step, put in little bits of information all the way to the point at the end where it says, okay, great, three contractors are going to be calling you.

Thank you. You know, I didn't, I didn't [00:15:00] know that that was going to happen. I thought it was just going to tell me a price, right? So I'm a student of the game, you know, and what we want to do is lower that trust barrier and capitalize on interest. You have to, because they're going to be as excited as they've ever been within the first, maybe 10 minutes.

And then all those thoughts start creeping in. I didn't take my family on vacation for three years. And I'm thinking about spending 10 grand on a paint job or, Oh, great. I got to invite strangers to my house. I just watched the news last night and X, Y, Z happened. I don't want it to happen to me. I just heard about Joanne next door, who her roofing contractor, you know, left a hole in the middle of a roof, right?

So the longer you wait, the longer these thoughts creep in and these And the excitement just goes down. So we wanted to create something that instantly sent a text message, instantly sent an email to the customer within seconds of them submitting the lead. And what I did was, is I built in a one off system early on.

So before DripJobs, I created a system that did this. By patching together four or

Jason Phillips: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Contractor Freedom Podcast. I'm your host, Jason Phillips. This show exists to help small business owners like you escape the tyranny of Contractor Freedom and enter the bliss of Contractor Freedom so you can have the Time, Money, and Freedom to Live Your Life With Purpose Beyond Your Business.

As a certified human behavior consultant in DISC personality styles and motivators, I'll be sharing with you skills for life, love, leadership, and business. I'll also be connecting you with experts that can help you scale your business and your life. So if you want to build the business and life of your dreams, then you are in the right place.

Let's go.

Jason Phillips: Hello, Contractors! I'm excited. You are gonna want to stick around for the entire episode today. We've got a very special guest with us, Mr. Nick Slavik. He is the proprietor of Nick Slavik Painting and Restoration Company, and he's also the host of Ask a Painter Live. He has been a national and [00:01:00] international speaker.

He is a U. S. Army veteran who volunteered for two tours of duty in Afghanistan and Iraq. After he got out of service, he attended college. He graduated with a bachelor's degree in business management. And by the way, Nick is also a family man. He and his wife have four kids. And Nick has traveled the U. S.

hosting masterclasses for business owners and craftspeople. As a matter of fact, Nick is a craftsman himself with more than 30 years of experience. His company has been awarded 15 national awards for craftsmanship. And he's currently the chairman of the board of directors of the PCA. That's the Painting Contractors Association.

And Nick, I just want to thank you so much for joining us today and say welcome to the show!,

Nick Slavick: You are making a Minnesotan blush. We are very self conscious about that sort of thing. And to list our own accomplishments in front of us, you're making me turn red,

Jason Phillips: you've got quite a list. Just read, reading your site and your bio and all of this stuff. Man, you are, almost like, you're almost like a Renaissance man. I'm just, I'm not kidding.

Nick Slavick: aNd so you have no idea how much I appreciate that because one of [00:02:00] my mentors outside of this industry is the prototypical renaissance man where his politics don't align with his hobbies. His hobbies aren't his politics. He's his own person. He builds stone huts. shoots things. He's he's an avid person in politics.

He loves family. He does this. There's nothing in his life that fits any bucket. He's a fine artist. He makes things and it's just Great entrepreneur. And to me, people who don't fit the mold like that and are just they do what they like, they try to do the best and create good opportunities for others is inspiring to me.

Jason Phillips: You are inspiring a lot of people around around the nation and I'm sure beyond, obviously you're an international speaker. I've seen you travel here and there and speak in different countries. You and I were talking before we hit record and about the difference We're both on the same journey and our listeners are on the same journey of entrepreneurship, owning small business. And, my listeners know that I came in completely broke with a sales and marketing mindset, but you came in a different door.

But we all were, we both ended up at the same place. Could you tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got to where you're at today?

Nick Slavick: Yeah. So this was there's [00:03:00] not many origin stories. One of them is I did it in college. One of them is my dad did it and made me do it. And I was, my dad was the, I did it in college. I was the, my dad did it in college and then made me do it. So we encompass a lot of the origin stories.

There's very few people like Jason Phillips who come in here with a certain amount of knowledge and education and things like that, and and have an entrepreneurial mindset. Yeah, I was just forced to do it since I was 10 years old. By the time, by the time I had graduated high school, I was a really dang good painter.

I was fast and good. There was nothing I couldn't do. There was nothing I didn't look forward to and I could train others and I could handle the clients and everything else. So I had a really, I had a, I had an eight or nine year a professional career by the time I was already out of high school.

So it was that thing where dad started the business, made mom and brother and me work and we just gave a heck

Jason Phillips: Wow. That is awesome. One of the things that I see so common, and I want to get your input on this. I see in so many of the contractors I meet, it's something I experienced. I came in with my own strengths, but I also, I quickly got to a spot where I was hitting these ceilings [00:04:00] because I didn't know what I didn't know.

And some of the things that I didn't know were how to make scalable systems. I knew how to make systems that made me a personal powerhouse. But I couldn't I, other people couldn't take those and make something awesome with them and continue them. Another one was gosh, I was not a really good leader.

aNd then the other one was just, higher level business skills. So I could sell, I could market, I could get the leads, but I quickly hit this critical critical velocity. I just couldn't go any faster, any higher without everything blowing up. And what has your experience been with that?

Nick Slavick: Yeah. Same, except that I started out not possessing the knowledge of some obvious things that I feel like you did and some other people did. For the majority of our industry when you go by the stats, 99 percent of all big paint businesses in the United States are single owner operators.

Historically, they start out by somebody being very good and fast at painting and not finding a professional company to work for. So they start their own business, which is an interesting thing because they don't come in. Believing some obvious things about business, which is a separate [00:05:00] checking account and job costing and a marketing thing and a hiring process and legal guide work, like an employee resource guide or a handbook.

And there's things that are obvious to some people in the world that are not obvious to painters. None of those are there. So I've had that same track. The weird data point that I can offer this industry, and I think it's why a lot of the things I do and say are relatable is because I have literally done this the hardest possible way that you could do.

And I, I've been using grit, brute strength, and hours to solve all these problems. Not dissimilar to making yourself a physical powerhouse, which is, I love this. My name's on the business and everything is going to go through me. And soon you realize. That doesn't go as far as

Jason Phillips: like, oh crap, everything has to go through me.

Nick Slavick: Yeah. And you're forced into an 82 hour week. You have created a business that demands 82 hours a week from you and not only 82 hours a week, but all the risk, all the payroll. It costs 55, 000 a week to run my business. And that is risk. No, whether we make that or not, I owe that. And so not only are you putting yourself [00:06:00] in for 82 hours, you're having all the risk and there needs to be a equivalent reward for 

Jason Phillips: Man, that is said so well. You know what, my family in my early years, I worked those type of hours. And my business was getting the best of me. And my family was getting my cold leftovers. And I just, I had this wake up call. And it was a very powerful moment in my life and I made a decision that I was going to do things differently and grow and build a team.

Have you hit these spots where you've had this, even maybe this emotional, a moment even.

Nick Slavick: Jason, you are describing my 2023. This literally what you just described, I have gone through the largest epiphany. lightning bolt, professional, personal revision I've ever done in my life, ever. And literally it's, I'm just coming out of the flux of that right now. And this year has been. Absolutely wild, personally and professionally.

And like that, it comes to a breaking point where everything's fine until the proverbial straw that broke the [00:07:00] camel's back gets laid on top of you. And guys like you and me are super achievers. We have. A high pain tolerance. We're willing to do anything to get anything done to take care of those around us.

The problem is, you and I do have a breaking point. I reached mine in a couple different ways in, in not like crazy dramatic ways, but getting wise enough to take in input from others to say, Nick, this is fine. You say you're fine now, but what happens next year or the year after? If you think you want to keep doing this and growing, I don't feel you can do this forever.

So you need to start thinking about the future and. Last thing I'll say is, the thing you said right before I started talking has so much deep wisdom in it and people are all going to nod their heads and agree and fine. But if you haven't been there, you don't know how deep and impactful what you just said was.

This gas tank, this proverbial gas tank. We have a gas tank and we'll empty it into our community and our friends and our business and our clients and everything else. And business owners have this horrible trait where they save no fuel for their family or their self. And they are the main sufferers.

And we have amazingly resilient families that put up with a lot. They too have their breaking points.

Jason Phillips: Wow, [00:08:00] that's true. And I'm thankful that my wife has tremendous patience. She had tremendous patience and, in the early days, she did, but we worked out, I was going to do X, Y, A, B, C, and she was going to do X, Y, Z, family wise. That doesn't mean it wasn't pressured. There was, man, there was a lot of pressure.

And when I finally got over that and got out of that hole, I just, I started taking vacations with her and my family constantly and just making up for lost time. And I'm so thankful to God that, that I was able to do that. It was man, it was one of my most powerful moments, again, man, there's this emotional connection that comes with being an entrepreneur.

I was, okay, I'm older than most in this industry right now. walked my first daughter down the aisle to get married, from the back of that chapel to the front was, I don't know, 20 steps. Life together, every highlight, every dad daughter moment from learning to ride a bike, learning to walk, learning to swim, even being born, you drive a car, all those things flashed before my eyes [00:09:00] in just a few short moments and tears were streaming down my face. And I was recently meeting with some contract the gathering of in San Antonio.

And I told them, I said, guys, it was exactly 20 years before that, that I slammed my fist on the desk and said, no more. I've got to do things different. My family's getting my leftovers, I can't do this anymore. And I'm so glad that I had that moment of reality check, of anger, of pain. So that, that I really, I experienced all those memories with my daughter and I, my heart goes out to all the other contractors I see.

I see that they are where I was, so many of them, and I want to help them get over that. And I think, I see you doing that same thing.

Nick Slavick: man. And honestly, the worst thing that happens to guys like us is having a high pain tolerance and putting up with this. I, my, my wish to this entire industry is that people would get broken in their first year. Learn from it and move on and never make the mistakes again. Now, it would be great, Jason, if they would never have that thing at all, but honestly, guys like us who have high revving sort of motors and all we see is missed opportunities and we're happy and optimistic and high pain tolerance, [00:10:00] I think we need to hit that control out, delete or have it hit for us every once in a while, just to be like, it, it takes some monumental things to reset us and reorganize our priorities.

Sometimes

Jason Phillips: It's what Mike Tyson say, he said, everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the face. And no, you're right, man, that, that is great. I haven't thought about it that way that would happen within the first year of business.

Nick Slavick: It'd be great. Now, listen, what I'm hardened over is that, you and I have been in this industry a long time. I was raised in trades V1, which is. Old grumpy men screaming at me. And that's how most of us have been here. And I've had to go from being a young grumpy man, screaming at people into a middle aged grumpy man, trying not to scream at people, trying not to be a grumpy man at all.

So I've encompassed two feats in two different stages of the industry. And I'm very heartened now when I travel the country and we're in a room with. 50 to 100 contractors at some industry event and the average age is 31 and a half and they're coming in having job costed their first job.

They have a separate checking account. They're have employment agreements and standards in the company and they know their P and L and things [00:11:00] like that. And they actually talk about a work life balance. And I was like, it's taken a long time for me to not get angry at that because I look back at my life and say, I should have done that sooner.

I'm now a little more sophisticated where that makes me proud now to see these young people doing this. And I feel like that's my maturation

Jason Phillips: So being as A craftsman, did you struggle with making the leap from craftsman to business person? Or did you not struggle with that at all?

Nick Slavick: Oh no, this has been the biggest struggle of my life. Forming a business. So interestingly enough, like founding, growing, scaling is the easiest thing on earth for guys with our personalities. You just rev high. You just dump resources in, lots of hours. Boom. We can collect a lot of people. We can do a lot of stuff.

Not a big deal. Making the transition from grower, founder, scaler, cowboy, firefighter to professional, consistent manager that my company needs literally broke me. It like, it is the hardest thing with our person. Physically, it's easier. It's an office job. It's standard office hours. It's being consistent with tiny little tasks throughout the day.

And I want to rip my face off. So[00:12:00] I've been trying to, I've been trying to make that professional transition with the help of a lot of people. And honestly, I would rather scrape a water tower in the sun than do that most days. But I'm finding love for it now that you realize it's a higher calling.

It is a tougher task and I love a tougher task. So it's been a weird journey.

Jason Phillips: Wow, that's, I love the way you define that. One of the things that I've done to help me, I get bored easily. And I'm my personality style on, on the DISC platform is a high D, high I. And, which is all fast, both of those are fast paced. So I've surrounded myself with some slower paced thinkers and supportive people that they really love to do the things that I'm terrible at. And I get to do what they don't really want to do. And so I, unfortunately I didn't learn this until I was rebuilding my company, which is a whole nother story. But I learned, personality styles and behavioral tendencies really understanding that really changed my life and my leadership.

And, using that to position people on my team has just been absolutely [00:13:00] trans transformational. But I see all these guys that And guys and gals that are trying to wear all of the hats in their company when what they need to do is maybe, outsource their weakness if you could say that.

But I see that a lot. And but I feel your pain. If you're going to be, if you're going to be the leader, there are certain things that you have to be good at. And one of those is inspecting what you expect. And realistically, that's managing and that, that accountability thing. Now, so when I think about Nick Slavik, here's one of the things that I think of you in so many ways as SOP guy, because I've constantly seen you share these your SOPs online with guys that ask.

And they're so clear cut, do this, then that, then this, then that. And just, it makes it so easy to follow a process. Is that something you started your company with? Because unfortunately I didn't. I had to go back and do all that.

Nick Slavick: Oh, Jason Phillips. How funny. How funny. Oh no, I didn't have any of this stuff. Listen, I've been in this industry over 30 years. I've owned my business for 16. I didn't have an SOP or anything written [00:14:00] down until five or six years ago, honestly. So literally I was left like five or six years ago, maybe even seven now with.

No employees having a bunch just left and I reformed the entire company and got serious with the help of other people. So no, this, it, what's really interesting too is that yes, most people have this reference point that I'm the SOP guy. People have no idea how much I hate them and how much I fight against them.

It is a necessary evil, Mr. Jason, because SOPs are standard. I literally came from the military where all we do is SOPs. There's an SOP to make your bed. They give you a stick with colored bands on it, and you lay the stick over the sheets, and the sheets have to be folded back, and I want to rip my face off.

I thought, this is stupid, what are we doing? But there is a point to SOPs, and I've, and again, going from cowboy firefighter, To professional manager, you realize that you have to be genuine in your own way of running a company. I don't like SOPs, so I crafted them in the most simplest, straightforward, intuitive ways I can.

They fit my personality and that of the company and finding your own voice within your company as a [00:15:00] manager and leader has been very important to me because I can't do the Jason Phillips way. It would be very maybe I could, I don't know, but I can't do a lot of what else I see out there.

So you got to find your own voice and be

Jason Phillips: I think you and I are probably more alike than we might realize after hearing some of this. By the way, I knew there was an SOP for how to make your bed. I did not know that there was a stick with colors on it. And it makes me think about, okay if we think about how much does a pound weigh or how far is a foot or a meter, there is actually, somewhere in the world, I don't remember where it is, there's a standard by which, you know and the gas pumps every year, gas pumps are measured to make sure you truly get a gallon of gas.

And that's what, as a as a business owner, we need things to be consistently repeatable. And if we don't have a measuring stick. to tell us if someone followed the process, not just tell us if they followed the process, but they can know whether they followed the process. We're just going to be firefighter cowboy forever.

And

Nick Slavick: aNd it is that thing where we, problem is. I got presented in the last 36 months, lots of things that challenged me and things and knee [00:16:00] jerk reaction. We once held as a point of...