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“I’m doing this for the passion of the sport and to inspire others.” “I know I’m not going to win, but I want to prove that people my age and girls in general can push the limit. It’s about longevity.”
–Sarah SchleperBefore there was Lindsey Vonn, before there was Mikaela Shiffrin…there was Sarah Schleper.
Sarah is a five-time Olympian. She skied in four Olympics for the USA and one for Team Mexico. You heard that correctly, Team Mexico. And what’s most amazing is that she is still competitively skiing.
During her time with the US Ski Team, Sarah had four World Cup podium finishes and she won seven American championships. In 2005, she finished 5th in the World Cup slalom standings and 17th overall in the world.
Sarah’s journey is truly remarkable.
She started ski racing relatively late in her life—at the age of 11, unlike most elite ski racers who started around 6 or 7 years old.
And it was in these adolescent years that Sarah trained under the legendary coach Erich Sailer, who also was Lindsey Vonn’s coach along with dozens of other women on the US Ski Team.
Sarah’s career with the US Ski Team spanned 15 years, and when she retired in 2011, she did it in style by skiing in her last World Cup run and wearing a beautiful dress. But that’s not all. Mid-way down the run, Sarah picked up her 4-year-old son, Lasse, and carried him through the finish line. You can see this all for yourself on YouTube. I’ll include the link in the blog post.
While many people know about Sarah’s remarkable career, her famous final World Cup race, and her adrenaline-releasing lioness roar before every race, this just scratches the surface of who Sarah is as a person.
I met Sarah a few years ago when my daughter Ruby attended the Erich Sailer Ski Camp at Mt. Hood, Oregon. Sarah, who was once the athlete being coached by the legendary Sailer, is now a coach herself for so many rising young athletes.
While there is no doubt that Sarah has a wealth of knowledge to share with her students, what impressed me from the moment I met her was the way people gravitated towards her and how she would motivate people to do things they never thought were otherwise possible.
Just as she inspired the members of the US Women’s Ski Team for so many years, Sarah inspired me from the moment we met. She’s even become an inspiration to my family. Oftentimes in our household, you’ll hear one of us say to our two children, “What would Sarah do in this situation?”
In this episode, we touched on so many topics.
Whether you are a ski racer, a young athlete dreaming of the Olympics, a parent of a young ski racer, or simply someone who loves to learn, I promise you this conversation does not disappoint and there is a ton of actionable information to take away.
This introduction can go on and on as there is so much to say about Sarah Schlerper’s impact on the world.
So without further ado, I’d like to introduce you to the lioness herself, Sarah Schleper.
Wait, there’s more…
About Sarah Schleper from today’s superstars
Sarah Schleper: Vail’s Olympic Mom
Sarah Schleper, Now Representing Mexico
Balancing Motherhood and Another Mountain Run
Sarah Schleper on Facebook
Sarah Schleper on Instagram
Transcript
Dr. Adam Rosh: Alright. Welcome to the show. Sarah, how are you?
Sarah Schleper: Good Adam. How are you?
Dr. Rosh: I’m good. I’m good. It’s great to be talking. I love the noises that I’m hearing on your end here. You have birds and the wild chirping and making noise. You’re in Mexico right now, right?
Sarah: Yeah. We’re in Puerto Escondido in the state of Oaxaca. I came outside because inside I have the fans going. There might be construction going on outside at some point, but I figured this was the most peaceful spot to do the interview.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. It definitely sounds peaceful. I’ve got to tell you. I’ve always known something a little about you and your history, but in preparing for this interview I loved…It was the best week of my life because I got to watch amazing ski videos, read articles that were just coming on the internet back in 2008 and the early days of the internet, and learning all about U.S. skiing, women’s skiing in particular. Learning about your journey. I’m really excited to do this interview. I have so much to ask you, and I doubt I’m going to be able to get through all of it. Maybe we’ll have to continue it some other time. I wanted to start in a place where most people would recognize and know you the most by your signature roar. This is all over the internet here. For those that don’t know, Sarah starts her races often—I don’t know if it’s all the time—with a signature lioness roar. I wanted to talk to you about when did that start and how did it start?
Sarah: Well, I’m the type of athlete that trains really, really well. So I would be the fastest at training, like beating top World Cup skiers. Then I would get into a race situation and I would think so much about the race and so much expectation and things—I guess things that you learn as you develop as an athlete—that I would just kind of choke almost. So I had a ski technician that was like, “Come on Sarah. Let out a scream before you scream before you go.” He kind of pushed me into that. As we progressed, it became this roar. For me what it did was it basically said I don’t care about anything else right now. I don’t care what people think of me. This is my performance. It just let out all of that anxiety for the performance so that I could do my job, which was ski fast. Actually it’s developed so much for me because I do it every race. At some point, some of the U.S. ski team coaches said I was wasting too much energy and I shouldn’t do it, but we came to realize that it actually did help me. So they said, “Okay, you should do it.” Now when I do it if somebody asks me to do it just for fun or something, it actually produces adrenaline. I feel like that readiness to compete.
Dr. Rosh: You know what, I never knew that as far as how that got started. So tell me a little bit about the ability to train hard. It sounds like the difference between your performance from training to the actual race was all in your head.
Sarah: Yeah.
Dr. Rosh: What did you see as those barriers? Were you ever able to identify what was happening that was causing your performance to change?
Sarah: Well, in ski racing training you’re going lap after lap on the same course. So the race is actually quite different from training unless you set up a race simulation training. So you’re doing the same course. So you can continually work on a turn to get faster. When you get into a race situation, you only have one shot on that course. So you inspect down it. Normally in training you’re inspecting pretty quick. You just look through it and go down. In a race situation, what’s typical of people is they’ll take a lot of time to look at a course. So you’re thinking, “Oh, how am I going to do this?” So I don’t think I was aware enough to actually consider, “Okay. What can I do to go faster?” I was just like oh that turn looks hard or that looks so much harder. It would be easier than your mind would project the course. So I came to have this kind of routine that I wouldn’t do, and I wouldn’t inspect fast. I would inspect at a pretty steady race. I’d slip through a field of snow. If there was a blind turn or something, maybe I’d hike back up just to have the right direction and know where I was going over the terrain, but I would make it—I mean these are things that you have to learn on your own because everyone’s different.
No friends on race day. We always say no friends on powder day. Well I’d say no friends on race day because I would find myself waiting for my friend to go up the chair lift. Instead of focusing on the performance or what I needed to do to make it a solid performance, I’d be more worried about what my friends were doing. So it was inspect fast, no friends on race day, positive attitude. So you wouldn’t look at the course and be like, “Oh, that looks hard.” You’d look at it and be like, “Oh, I know I can get more speed here. Or this is a great day for me.” Even if it was cloudy, rainy, you try to make the best out of this experience. Those are my three things actually.
Dr. Rosh: So as far as—We’re going to circle back to the no friends on race day idea because I want to dig into that. As far as inspect fast, no friends on race day, think positive, what about other routines that you have on race day that when you were skiing at 16 and 18, is the routine pretty much the same from when you were skiing in your 30s? Did it change?
Sarah: Another thing I love to do—On a race day you spend a lot of time in the lodge because you’re waiting for your run basically. I think that’s maybe not the best way to go about it. So I started implementing more free skiing before I’d race, getting my body warm. All these routines slowly developed over time. So I think in the beginning it was more of just go with the crowd, do what everyone else is doing. Then as you gain more experience and you learn more about all the pieces of the sport, you can develop your own routines that work better for you as an individual.
Dr. Rosh: So skiing is such an individualized sport. It’s interesting that you said that you go with the pack. I’d imagine that everyone that you’re around is an elite skier on that day. I’m surprised to hear though that—Has it maybe changed now where you’ll have the top skiers kind of doing their own thing, coaches around them, having their own routines rather than being in groups of people? Is that…
Sarah: Well, I think the clubs, especially in the U.S., are still a little bit behind maybe in that they inspect together as a group, stopping at every gate. I think some kids can get through that, but maybe some don’t. At the club level, I think it is still much a pack type environment, but you do have the specialized kids that the parents are really involved or they’re paying a private coach where it can be a little bit more individualized. Which maybe from the pack view it looks bad because they’re like well why does this person get this individualized attention and I don’t? They happen to be the ones doing better because they have their needs and focuses met, but it’s not a feasible outlet for the thousands of kids involved in this sport. So I think just finding maybe if you can’t have that opportunity, just finding your way individually in the pack and things that work for you. I was always brought up in the club. I had my dad who was very outspoken and was looking out for needs a lot of the time, but I did have to find my way through that environment.
Dr. Rosh: As far as other routines, like you listen to music. How did you psych yourself up and keep yourself focused on race day?
Sarah: Everyday was different. I think if you kind of focus too much on routine that you do every time the same, maybe it doesn’t get that psyche that you need. Some days I just sit by myself at the start and envision myself—this was after I started the roar—in a cage. Like I just got to get out of this cage and get mentally psyched up like that, but I couldn’t do that every time because it didn’t work. Sometimes it would work. I think you have to take the day, see how it feels. Those four things I knew worked for me. As you get closer to the start and you’re in the arena with all the other athletes, that’s where the psyche can really get in the way or help you down. So you have to find your way through. Basically when you’re in the start arena with all the top skiers and so you’re like oh. There’s cameras there in your face. You have to be mentally tough to not care what anyone thinks. So if you’re doing silly exercises or hop turn or whatever you’re doing that you don’t care how they’re going to analyze what you’re doing and making sure you’re doing what you need to do to prepare. Because it’s a one shot thing, you know. You trip the wand early and your race is done.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. So we’re speaking in May of 2020. I just got done watching the series The Last Dance about Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls. I don’t know if you’ve been able to watch that or not. It’s truly outstanding. One thing that I was so impressed with MJ was that he would use any little motivation, any little incident, or any little incentive to motivate him. So if someone looked at him the wrong way or took a shot and said something, he would then say like oh no. You’re going to see what’s coming your way. In the ski world, was there anything like that where you would find a motivator to focus on the day of or on that run?
Sarah: Yeah. I don’t like conflict with other people. So I didn’t look for that. We had two stars when I was racing, Janica Kostelić and Anja Pärson. The first World Cup Janica came to that I saw; we were in inspection and she skied right over Anja Pärson’s skis. I thought that was—I was like oh my gosh. This is crazy. So they started that rival. It was fun to watch. I know Picabo Street would do stuff like that too. She would feed off and play mind games with people. I wasn’t like that. I was more like oh this song. It was like, “I can feel it coming in the air…” That’s when I got my first World Cup podium. I was like oh, this is my day. Or I’d go free ski really hard, some [inaudible] under the chair and just bomb it down as fast as I could. Stuff like that. That would feed me more than rivalries with other competitors. Big crowds, I loved that. That would motivate me.
Dr. Rosh: One more question on kind of this race day prep and routine. When you are at the gate, the starting gate, a minute before you’re ready to go, what’s your self-talk? What are you saying to yourself?
Sarah: I mean it’s always different, obviously. I had a coach. He was the coach for the youth, and he gave me some cool tips. He was like, “Just go no mind. Just trust yourself.” In skiing you have to visualize a lot and know where you’re going, but then once you get to that spot right before the gate it’s best to just trust and trust in your ability. I always did the thing like be in the present moment, have a good start. Don’t think about down the course, just have a great start. So that was an easy thing to focus on to stay present because you’re there. Have a good start, come out, skate hard, get going as quick as you can. Other times you’re just thinking maybe about a little technical thing that you’re working on like over the outside ski. Just get that feeling of over the outside ski, over the outside ski. Something like that. Something simple. If any worry or doubt comes in about a turn down below, I would prepare the race for that one turn. Obviously, my time would reflect that.
Dr. Rosh: Right, right.
Sarah: For me, it’s just about being no mind or very simple, technical.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Alright. Let’s transition just a little. I want to just touch on the Olympics. You’ve skied now in five Olympics, and I think one of three women who have skied for more than one country.
Sarah: Really?
Dr. Rosh: Yep. Probably very few who have children in the ski racing world as well. I want to know at what point in your life did you go from dreaming about skiing in the Olympics to actually realizing that it was something attainable?
Sarah: Yeah. When I was little—like five, six, seven, eight, nine—I wanted to be an Olympic gymnast. Where I grew up, I just didn’t have the training for that. Skiing kind of called me. My dad has a ski shop. So the Olympic dream didn’t really change, but the sport did which was cool. Then I don’t know. I started out really bad. We started out with five groups and I was in group five, which was the worst group. They ranked us by ability.
Dr. Rosh: What age was this?
Sarah: This was at 11. I started really late actually for skiing. I’d been skiing all my life, but I hadn’t been a racer until later. My coach’s daughter was one year older than me and she was like the star. We became really close friends, but I was always chasing her down. Always, always chasing her down. I’d never beat her. Erich would hand time us and I was always behind her, which I think sometimes I was in front of her, but he stopped the timer later. I think that actually helped me more maybe than it helped her because I always wanted to get her, wanted to get her, wanted to get faster. Then as I reached J3, which was 13/14, my results just started going—I was winning all the races. Then I kind of never looked back. I just kept on the path. I think the Olympics was always there. I don’t know if I was like so, “I’ve got to go to the Olympics. I’ve got to go.” I was just going with the U.S. ski team, which was amazing, so much fun. We were out on the road and racing. I’d have bad races, good races, but I was always fast. Since 13 and on I was fast. So it was kind of just like the natural path.
Then I was at the Olympics. I was 18 turning 19. It was surreal. One of my teammates mentioned he wished he could have had more of my attitude, which was just so happy to be at the Olympics versus putting so much pressure to perform and try and win a medal. So I think my first Olympics was just like, “Oh my gosh. I made it. I’m here. It’s amazing.” I’m still pretty immature. I think I’m a late bloomer in a lot of ways, but I was so excited just to be competing. When I look back and see like Lindsey and Mikaela and their goals and dreams, they had bigger aspirations. Lindsey was like, “I want to win this many races. I want to win this many globes.” I don’t think I was that aware of those pinnacles. I was just like I want to go to the Olympics, and that’s what I did. I went to the Olympics. So for me, I made it to what I had set out for myself.
Dr. Rosh: So much there to unpack. When you were 13 and 14, you mentioned that something changed in your athletic performance. We could imagine it’s lots of things. Maybe it’s biological like your body changed, maybe something emotional changed, or maybe your coaching changed. Do you have any idea of what it was that happened then?
Sarah: I think it was just the repetition of the practice and the people I had around me. I had Martina and Erich. I was welcomed as like a sister almost. They would take me with them. Martina was an only child. So I think it was welcome. I think Erich liked me from the beginning. We became this kind of unit. So I got to train and travel with the best from—I mean I was late because most people had started ski racing at whatever six and I was 11. So I stepped into the right environment, and that propelled me to start winning pretty quickly.
Dr. Rosh: So just for everyone. We’re going to dive into this a little deeper later, but when Sarah mentions Erich she’s talking about Erich Sailer who is actually the first and maybe the only—but could be someone else now—ski race coach in the hall of fame. So he’s a legend.
Sarah: He’s Lindsey Vonn’s coach. He’s coached almost more than 50% of the female Olympians in my time. All of us had had his coaching at some time. Julia, Resi Stiegler, Tasha Nelson.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. We’re going to circle back that in a second. As far as—Would you consider yourself at age 13/14, kind of as your abilities were maturing and changing, would you consider yourself—Your greatest talents. Were they more of just like a natural ability to ski fast or would you say that you mentally were able to kind of conquer the course? Or was it more tactical? Like technical in a way. Like people describe Mikaela Shiffrin as a technical skier. What do you consider your kind of thing that propels you? Is it this natural ability to get down? Is it the way to—Oh, that’s okay. Lasse, your son, just entered. I could see him. So just to go back to that question. Everything good with him?
Sarah: Yeah. He’ll figure it out.
Dr. Rosh: What would you describe yourself in the younger years as the type…Like what made you at the top? What made you be able to win these races? If anything.
Sarah: It goes to my upbringing. My dad raised me, and I had a brother. He was all about hard work. We never got to sleep past 7:00 or 8:00 in the morning. He always had projects for us. I always had to do the dishes. He was just a little bit hard on us but loving at the same time. I think that started me out with this will to work hard and do…It kind of became a natural way to just do as many runs as I could. I had a lot of enthusiasm for life. I was never considered a tactical skier. I would always blow the tactical part because I was head down, go as fast as I can. Those are the things like really smart skiers like [inaudible] and they know when to slow down, when to speed it up. So I think it was more of this commitment to what I was doing, if anything.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean it sounds like a lot of those seeds were planted at a young age and sprouted throughout your adolescence and teen years. Let’s circle back to now your mentors and coaches. I know Erich Sailer played a really important role early on in your ski career. Are there any—if you can name some, put your finger on some—of the key takeaways like really important themes that Erich was able to impart on you throughout your career that would come back over and over again.
Sarah: Well, one of the things he always told us was you have to coach yourself. So if what a coach is saying doesn’t seem right, make sure you have the ability—I think that’s true in any kind of situation through life. Spiritual leaders say the same thing. If it resonates with you, then put it into your practice. Otherwise you can choose your own way. That was helpful, especially as a slow budding woman. He taught us about doing a lot of repetition and having a rivalry was always a good thing. Having somebody to push you. Watching the best, skiing behind the best, learning from the best. Just simple stuff. Then he always talked about not changing your technique. Doing what was natural for you, making a natural skier and I love that. Yeah.
Dr. Rosh: I’m just taking notes here. Those are really great. He has a pretty distinctive accent and voice. Do you hear his voice when you would ski, before a race, during it?
Sarah: I will ski for his praise. I mean I still do it. I’m like watch me Erich. He’s like, “Oh beautiful Sarah. Beautiful.” Then if you piss him off it’s like, “God dammit Sarah, what are you doing?” Martina was scared of him. I was the rebellious one. So I would sneak out of the room with the boys at night. He always tells this story at camp about how I was sleeping out in the hall waiting for these British boys to come by. He was like, “Get back in your room Sarah. What are you doing?” Martina was always the good one and doing the right thing. So we had that going a little bit.
Dr. Rosh: Oh that’s funny. People on the U.S. ski team that have skied with you have described you as a fiercely competitive person with crazy energy and motivation that brought out competitiveness in all of them. For example, Lindsey Vonn said that you were always challenging her to push up and pull up competitions. Resi Stiegler said that you used to motivate her and push her to work harder. That she knew that you would never ever want to see her beat you because you are so competitive, but that inspired her to race harder. Is there a driving force behind your competitiveness? Anything that you could kind of describe?
Sarah: We have this talk a lot. I’ve thought about it a lot. I’m extremely self-motivated. My surfing friends say the same thing. They gave me the nickname Wiggolly Dantas because he’s this surfer that’s just super crazy competitive passionate. I do the same thing in surfing. Just out there catching bombs and falling on crazy crashes. I think I also inspire my surfing friends to get out there. So I don’t know where that drive comes from. I don’t know if it’s genetic. I see my kids too. Lasse has this competitive urge. When he’s out on the hill and he wins a run, he gets so emotional and so excited. So I think it might be almost genetic makeup. I don’t know if everybody has it. I’ve just always had it. That’s why I was saying in training when we would train, I was so competitive and so fast. I wanted those fast times. It was interesting because when I get into the race, it was almost less important to me to be the fastest on that day. I mean obviously I was still competitive and wanted to win the races, but on training I was always just like come on. Bring it on. Let’s make this fun.
A lot of girls will have the competitive spirit, but they think it’s not good to show it or they won’t talk crap. They’ll keep it more internal and get more jealousy feelings or something. Where I’m like I had this one girl who was on the team, Jessica Kelly, and she had brothers and was more like that boy rivalry. Let’s do this. Once it was off the hill, it was like we were just friends. When we were out on the hills, it’s like come on. We’d have running races or any kind of—I love sports and I love that thrill of competition and trying to do your best and trying to win the thing. So I think—I don’t know. Maybe it’s genetic. Maybe it’s from the way I was brought up with boys all around me.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. It’s an interesting thought because in The Last Dance actually—it’s just as a reference, I just watched that recently. I mean Michael Jordan was the exact same way. People would describe him…Like it didn’t matter what it was, he was always competing. Whether it was who could throw a quarter closest to a wall from five feet away or a foul shot competition or a game, he was competitive everywhere. It ended up driving people to work harder all around him. My guess is that athletes all around him at this elite level, at the level that you’re working at, this is probably a characteristic that’s common among them.
Sarah: Definitely. We used to have dessert eating—This is kind of disgusting. I could beat huge Austrian guys in eating food. We went to this all you can eat sushi and we got to the point where it was like I can do one more plate and he couldn’t. Then I got so sick after I thought I was going to explode. Or dessert eating competitions. Stupid stuff like that.
Dr. Rosh: I love it. You mentioned that skiers like Lindsey Vonn, perhaps Mikaela Shiffrin kind of had a clear sense of I want to win X number of races, these number of points, medals. Did you have any—You said that wasn’t really your thing. You had to have or perhaps had goals or a way to manage or organize goals. Maybe like wrote something down or would have a list of things or kept it in your mind. Did you have some general system or way that you named goals for yourself?
Sarah: I write everything that comes to me. I’ve had journals since I was a really young girl. I’ve looked back at some of my training journals, which were more just like what I ate. I remember telling myself—I read this, “Stay away from the boys. They’re distracting from your goals.” Stuff like that.
Dr. Rosh: Do you remember how old you were when you wrote that? Stay away from boys, they’re distracting.
Sarah: I think I was like 13/14/15. That was one of Erich’s things too. Don’t have a boyfriend. They’re distracting. I was always into the boys. When we were on the C team, our coach George [Cabal ph?] he would have us do these goal sheets, I remember. I saw Lindsey’s and it was like, “This year I want to get podiums and World Cups. This year I’m going to win World Cups. This year I’m going to win the overall.” I don’t know if it’s because her dad was a very competitive skier so she knew more about the process and what the things you could win were. Maybe I was a little bit more naïve to that. Obviously, we all know we can win an Olympic medal, but I don’t think I’ve ever wrote win an Olympic medal. Maybe I did later, but originally it was always make it to the Olympics. I don’t remember specifically if I had won the World Junior Championship or stuff like that, but I was second in a lot of these big events. I was second in Topolino. I won Whistler Cup. I mean I did eventually win a World Cup, but I was one of those racers that was consistently in the top 10, which for an American wasn’t really you know. It’s hard for us as Americans to be doing that. I don’t know if it was because I also had this conservative side to me that I didn’t want to be that much in the spotlight. I don’t know what was holding me—
To win the World Cup, I read this book that my doctor in Germany gave me. I was having back problems, so I was seeing a specialist. I read this book about winning and I went on a vacation by myself. I studied the video side by side of Marlise and myself. I was like, “I can win. I can beat her.” I looked at it and I just kind of reset and went back and won the next race, which was crazy. I put it to myself and I did it. I think a lot of these athletes like Mikaela, they’re doing that all the time. She has help with her mom who’s like you can win this. She won’t let her get away with these little mistakes. Whereas if you’re in the team environment, the coach is looking out for the whole group of girls. So you’re not like a specific focus for them. So you have to be finding those little things for yourself. I mean I finally did it, but I think when you have parents like Lindsey and Mikaela have that are really active and helping them get through those little things, I think it’s definitely very helpful.
Dr. Rosh: What was the name of the book?
Sarah: It was called Winning.
Dr. Rosh: Winning. Do you recall the author at all? Was it in German?
Sarah: No I don’t. No, it was in English. He had it on his bookshelf. I was like I think I need to read that. Then I took it, read it, did the video thing, and then went. I met these guys and they were like, “Take this maca root.” So I started taking maca root and I was like okay. Then I went out and won the race.
Dr. Rosh: Nice. Nice. That’s great. So I’m going to throw you a little curveball here. We have a guest that wants to join briefly and ask a couple of her own questions.
Sarah: Awesome.
Dr. Rosh: Let me introduce to you Ruby Rosh, my daughter who is 11 turning 12.
‘Sarah: When’s your birthday Ruby?
Dr. Rosh: Let me undo this here real quick.
Sarah: My son is 12.
Dr. Rosh: Alright can you see Ruby? She has a costume on for you.
Sarah: Is that your Mexican rancher?
Dr. Rosh: I don’t know what she’s doing.
Ruby Rosh: It’s for my art class.
Dr. Rosh: It’s for her art class. She’s in school.
Sarah: When’s your birthday Ruby?
Ruby: July 12th.
Sarah: July 12th. Lasse turns 12 in January.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. So alright. Ruby has a couple questions that she wants to ask you.
Sarah: Alright Ruby.
Ruby: Knowing what you know now, what advice would you give yourself as a first year U14?
Sarah: These questions are always so hard. I honestly think I wouldn’t change much. I would just tell myself to believe in where you are, believe in what you’re at, and just go through the motions that you need to do to get to your adult life. When you’re 14, you don’t realize that you are actually going to become an adult at some point. So it’s really important that you enjoy being a child, enjoy being a kid, and have fun with your friends. If you want to be great at something, just keep your mind focused on it and not lose sight of where you want to go. Also at the same time have fun and enjoy the process.
Dr. Rosh: Do you have another one?
Ruby: Yeah. So my second one is how do you keep friendship with your teammates when they’re also your competitors?
Sarah: That’s a hard question. I try to keep the competition stuff on the hill and when I’m open about being competitive. On the hill I’m like, “I want to kick your butt today. Let’s do this.” Then when it’s out and we’re just goofing around, we’re just having fun we kind of forget about being competitors. Maybe when you’re dryland training you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to do one more rep than you. Or I’m going to run faster than you.” Show yourself that way physically. As far as being in a team environment, having dinner, having fun, it’s really easy to be friends. Being friends is way more fun than being rivals I think. So I would try to keep close with my teammates and make it work in any way. All personalities are different. You get put into a situation on a team that maybe you’re not as compatible, but I would always try and make the group work as a friendship scenario. That makes being on the road so much more fun.
Dr. Rosh: What do you think?
Sarah: Did that answer your question?
Ruby: Yeah.
Dr. Rosh: Ruby’s been working hard in dryland so far with the season cut short in February. She made the Rocky Central Team this year. So she’s excited. She needs the training.
Sarah: Awesome. Congratulations. We are going to get some training in. I have a feeling.
Dr. Rosh: Alright. Anything else? Alright cool. We’ll circle back. Alright.
Sarah: Awesome.
Dr. Rosh: That was good. She’s been talking about this for the last couple of days when she found out we were going to be speaking.
Sarah: Nice.
Dr. Rosh: So I want to stay on the topic of youth skiing for a little and ask you like what can the path look like for a young ski racer who wants to try and compete at the highest levels? Here’s the caveat. They don’t live in Vail. They don’t live in Buck Hill in Minnesota. They live in a state that definitely they could ski, they could join a race team. What does the path look like if they’re committed and they want to get to these highest levels? What are some of the key things?
Sarah: Well to get, I think, to the highest level in anything, there are some sacrifices. You have to completely focus yourself on that thing you want to be the best at. We all know the famous theory of 10,000 hours, but I think that is true. You have to be committed. Writing in your journal not to talk to the boys because it’s distracting from where you’re headed and having that point set. Then there are many things that you can do that can get you there. The internet is so valuable now. You can watch every World Cup racer. You can pick out a [inaudible] to watch and just study them. I think it’d be the same in music or anything else. Just following that path and visualizing. I mean you can be training in your mind. They say that’s almost as viable as actually doing the same. So every time I meditate, I do a ski run. Then I do the ski run also in reverse, backwards, so you can kind of see the line. A motorcycle racer friend of mine told me that trick. So you run the course backwards. That gives the feeling for the shape of the turn and the wind, things like that. Then there’s obviously the physical training you can be doing. Making sure that you’re dedicating yourself everyday to do it. I would make up ski specific exercises. So I’d lay on my ball sideways and work on getting over the outside ski, working that side core, or lifting your legs. Skiing is all about having the ability to bring your legs up to you. So hanging from a bar and working these muscles. Just developing things that work for a skier, work for what you’re doing. I know that there’s this stigmatism that you have to be at the best club with the best—Actually we live in Vail. I think the program’s so big that it’s so easy just to get swept under the rug. Maybe the few elite skiers get some special attention, but maybe it’s better to even be at a different club where you can work and you’re not having to deal with all these other elite things going on. So I don’t think that is definitely the means all ends all or however that saying goes.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah, yeah.
Sarah: You definitely have to be training a lot and focusing everyday on that goal.
Dr. Rosh: That makes a lot of sense. Were you always doing physical and mental training? So not during ski season, but in the off season. At what age did you recognize that you need to get your body in shape? You need to get your mind in shape as well.
Sarah: Yeah, the mental came later for me. I didn’t realize how important it was. I think that was also just developing. It wasn’t as well known as it is now.
Dr. Rosh: Right.
Sarah: Physically I wouldn’t let myself go one day without—First it was rollerblading because rollerblading is very specific. So I would take my rollerblades and go out and rollerblade. I’d set up courses with cones or I’d rollerblade to the next town, anything to get that balance. Any kind of skating thing. I would also go on my trampoline and you can jump side to side like a ski motion. I’d do intervals that way. I wouldn’t let myself go one day without physical. If I was lazy one day, I would just feel so guilty. I was like you’ve got to go out, you’ve got to train harder, you’ve got to do more. I think we’re also kind of progressing away from that. Just making sure our training’s very focused and smart training, but I was into being the strongest. I found that when I got a trainer and actually did some heavier lifting and had somebody there to push me and motivate me, I had my better season. Even though I was very self-motivated, having that extra kind of guidance did help to get stronger. I don’t like the weight room. I’m one of those people that’s like no weight rooms. I do think skiing because of the forces that you endure during the length of the course that it is important to have some extra power there.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. Through the longevity of your career I would presume you probably, your attention to physical and mental health has prolonged—Do you feel like that’s been one of the main things in being able to prolong your career? I guess that’s what I’m trying to say.
Sarah: Yeah. I’ve had those miraculous meetups with people where you’re like “how did that happen?” where I’ve learned specific things. I had a very early intro into yoga, and I love yoga because you learn your body so well. You learn things that can help you get yourself back in alignment. It’s a lengthening but also a strengthening that’s very practical. I think that does add a lot of longevity to any athlete’s career. Also this Tai Chi teacher followed me on Facebook like I have to teach you this stuff. I was like, “What is this guy…” So finally I just kind of gave in. I was like yeah okay. He drove out to Beaver Creek where I was staying to teach me some techniques, and then I all of a sudden became amazed with Tai Chi. It made me feel so good and so limber in my mid area, which is so important for skiing. I do Tai Chi religiously now. I have this one routine thing, one movement I do almost every day for 20 minutes. I think that’s one of the reasons that I can keep doing what I’m doing.
Then mentally I’ve had these also techniques come in just because I’m out there searching for things that really have helped me. Now I’m into the Wim Hof thing. I just did this webinar about SOMA breath, which is kind of a combination of Wim Hof and visualizing and these powerful beats. It just blew my mind. There’s all these little things out there that if you’re looking that will find you. I’ve been fortunate enough to run into some of those things.
Dr. Rosh: What’s your typical morning routine look like?
Sarah: Before skiing or just like here in Mexico?
Dr. Rosh: I would say take…
Sarah: I can tell you both.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah, yeah. I want to know, yeah. Go on.
Sarah: Finish your sentence.
Dr. Rosh: I was going to say you probably have carried over a lot of the same disciplines even during skiing to now in many things just because of the mental health and the physical health that you maintain. So yeah, both. What’s a typical morning routine look like now and what did one look like in the prime of your ski racing?
Sarah: I tend to do the same things now that I did back then when I’m skiing. So if we have to be leaving at 5:00, I wake up at 4:00 and I warm up for an hour. I do this whole core yoga Tai Chi sequence that makes my body get in alignment. That has obviously some visualizing going on along with it. I feel like the earlier I get up, the more my body warms up, the more success I’m going to have out on the hill because skiing is such a demanding physical sport. It’s a simple routine that I do, and it slowly wakes me up. I do that religiously. I really found that helps. I don’t do that same thing when I’m here in Mexico. I do wake up if I’m motivated in the morning. Sometimes I can’t get out of the bed in this heat, but I’ll go up on my roof. We have a beautiful roof here that outlooks over the trees. I’ll do 20 minutes of Tai Chi and then I’ll do a meditation. Then I have our family—We do Wim Hof meditations in the afternoon. My husband, I just turned him on to it and he just loves it. Lasse, he doesn’t really get the effects as much, but I think he’s slowly learning to have more of a conscious breathing and all that. I mean those are the things that I like to focus on and then whatever happens during the day.
Dr. Rosh: As far as the Wim Hof techniques, is there a place that you could recommend that someone search it or just search online for it? Is there a particular video or book or anything that you used?
Sarah: I learned about Wim Hof from my Mexican teammate Rodolfo. He posted something about him. I haven’t heard of him before. I know he’s all over the web now. There is a great video on YouTube. It’s with two minute breath holds. I think there’s ones with one and a half. It’s just a basic—He leads you through the breathing. I taught myself through YouTube. Yeah. Just look up Wim Hof breathing technique on YouTube and you can find how to do it. I would also recommend looking into this SOMA breath because it’s fascinating. It’s really cool.
Dr. Rosh: Do you know how to spell that?
Sarah: S-O-M-A.
Dr. Rosh: Soma.
Sarah: SOMA breath. I just learned about this yesterday, and I’m super excited to delve into it a little more. It’s easy to teach yourself those things with the internet.
Dr. Rosh: So you had your first child Lasse in 2008 who made a guest appearance about 20 minutes ago. I saw him on the video here. Your second child, Resi, in 2013. After your first child in 2008, you continued to race for the U.S. Ski team. That was a big deal. You were the only person on the U.S. Ski team at the time who had a child, and you may be the only person ever who has had a child while they’re on the U.S. Ski team. I’m not sure. What was that decision like that you made with your husband at the time to continue to be a ski racer? From the sacrifices that you’re going to have to make and the life that you’re going to have to live. You do that as a family. Was there anything in that decision that you were afraid of?
Sarah: This kind of goes back to that whole goal setting thing. For some reason I had this weird urge, I was like I want to race as a mom. I told my teammates that. I didn’t have a boyfriend or a husband or anything. I was like I want to be a mom and race. They’re like, “You’re crazy. I want to be done with skiing when I’m a mom.” Granted I wasn’t married when I became pregnant, but I knew this was the man that I wanted to have my children with. I was at an Erich Sailer ski camp in June when I found out I was pregnant. So I called him, and I was like, “Oh, I’m pregnant.” We’re just like what? What? How did that happen? We thought we were practicing not having a child. For me it was easy because, like I said, I had that inkling that I wanted to do it. I waited the 40 days or whatever that I was recommended before I started real physical activity. I was like well, is the team going to accept me back? I called the team right away when I found out I was pregnant. I was like I’m pregnant, and they were like, “Okay, well have a good life.” When I told them I wanted to continue racing, they were like, “Well, let’s see how that goes.” The first year back I scored points in my first World Cup back, but then I kind of dipped down and I wasn’t fast for a while. I don’t know the stresses of it or whatever. My husband was willing to travel. He took care of Lasse while I was training. Everything worked out. The team was super willing—We had a very open team, and the coaching staff was willing to take on that load which was amazing.
By the end of the season, I got my speed back. I won NorAm. I kind of got bumped off the World Cup because I was flat for a while. Then I started winning NorAms again. I was on my way to winning the U.S. Nationals, but crashed in the second run. I definitely had my speed back by the end, but I hadn’t made the criteria for my age. Because at my age, you had to be doing stuff on the World Cup and I had only gotten that one World Cup. So the next season I was still named onto the team, but I had to fund my own way. So that, for me, was a little bit disappointing because I had proven my speed again. I had a spot on the World Cup still from those points that I earned. Luckily, the FIS was giving the U.S. Ski team money for my rankings. So I had to fight with the U.S. Ski team that was allotted for my position. That became a big deal, but I ended up making the money that I needed to travel and fund that season. Then I got a fifth place in a World Cup that year and was having consistent results. So I was able to make the—
I decided to retire on my own terms in 2012. I was still having pretty decent results. My last race was Mikaela’s first podium. I wasn’t enjoying one, losing my status to Mikaela. I didn’t want somebody taking my role as the top technical skier. Then also the coach was very Austrian and square. He only saw Mikael and he didn’t see the effort that I thought I was giving as a mother. So I decided it was time to call it quits with the ski team. I still had this idea of the Mexican team. That came about in 2009 because Hubertus von Hohenlohe, who was my teammate, he’s 60. So at the last Olympics—is it the Olympics or World Championships? It was the World Championships. The two of us combined we were 100 years old. He was 60 and I was 40. It was pretty funny. He was friends with my husband’s family. He’s like, “Why don’t you switch to the Mexican team? We can get your passport easy.” It wasn’t easy. It took us six years or whatever to get the passport. So I was always harnessing this dream to keep going, keep going. The thing about being on the Mexican team is there’s no real pressure to have results. So I could train as much as I want and do whatever I wanted basically and still have my position on the Olympic team. I’m fast. I’m definitely still fast, but I’m not as fast as I was. I just don’t put in the hours. I think, maybe not now, but back a couple of years ago I could have been just as fast. I just wasn’t training as much. I didn’t have the team support that the U.S. Ski Team has.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. Gosh, there’s so much there. I’m going to dissect that a little. So just going back to the beginning of what you just were talking about from pre-motherhood to post-motherhood, it took you a little while to kind of get back to your fighting form. Did things change for you significantly in the way you had to train and your mindset or were you just doing the same thing and just having to spend more time doing it? Was there anything specific of how you changed post-Lasse?
Sarah: Well, the breastfeeding was a little awkward. I had a breast pump that I would bring on the hill. One of my coaches one day was like, “Oh Sarah, you got your own oxygen tank?” Then he got closer and he’s like, “No, no. It’s your breastfeeding.” Then Federico blew out his knee. So he couldn’t come on one of the trips with me. So I kind of had to quit breastfeeding cold turkey. I had these enormous swollen breasts that were leaking out. My coaches were just like, “Oh my god Sarah. What is wrong with you?”
Dr. Rosh: Wow.
Sarah: Yeah. It definitely became more of a balance of attending to my family and making sure that Lasse felt the love of his mother and focusing on my own needs and selfishly doing my sport. So it became a little bit more of a balance, although I still was selfish in a lot of ways. Thankful to my husband that he was able to take the load of being mother and father at the same time.
Dr. Rosh: Wow.
Sarah: But we traveled together. He was there for all the races. It was also a very growing and enlightening period for him as a father.
Dr. Rosh: Sure, sure. We’ll touch on that. In 2011, you skied your final World Cup race in Lienz, Austria as a U.S. athlete. You did this, right—you could look this up on YouTube, it was fabulous—wearing a dress rather than a traditional ski race suit. About half way down the course you stop, and someone comes out. Is that your husband at the time or your coach?
Sarah: That’s my coach.
Dr. Rosh: And hands you your son Lasse, who was about three or four at the time. You ski the remainder of the run holding your son in your arms. What meaning did this last run have for you at that time? No one knew you were going to come back, and you didn’t even know necessarily that you were still going to ski in the Olympics later even after that, but this was your last race. What meaning or what was going through your mind on that last run?
Sarah: It was exciting. It was really emotional. I didn’t realize what a turning point that was and just now that whole U.S. Ski Team how that almost seems like a different lifetime ago. For me it was just, the whole thing came together. Before I was married and with the children, my teammates are like, “You’ve got to do your last run naked. You’ve got to do your last run naked.” I was like, “Well, I could maybe do a bikini or something.” Luckily, Julia had these swimsuit bottoms and Resi loaned me the dress. So it all kind of pieced together. Then the last minute we’re in this lodge waiting for the race to start. They’re like, “Why don’t you ski down with Lasse? That would be so fun.” So we planned this all on the go. It ended up being one of the most memorable runs, obviously, of my career because I was carrying Lasse and saying goodbye to the whole sport in a way. I wasn’t sad to let it go. I was excited for what was ahead, and I was happy with what I had accomplished as a skier. So it was a great way to move forward. I think it was a fun way and people enjoyed watching. I felt bad for Wendy Holdener was right behind me on the start. So she had to kind of wait for the whole process. She had a horrible race, but she’s gone on to become one of the World Cup’s top stars.
Dr. Rosh: Oh good. Yeah, I was wondering that same thing when I was watching the video. That was kind of the passing of the baton, I think. I think it’s symbolic for all of women’s U.S. ski racing. I mean this wasn’t just a symbol for yourself. I think this was a symbol of a reigning in of a new era in a sense of U.S. women’s ski racing for sure. You take some time off and you get a little restless.
Sarah: No I was just waiting for that passport. I was ready to go. The FIS had already accepted me for the Sochi Olympics. I could have had six by now. I got the passport one month after Sochi. So that was a bummer.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah, yeah. I saw that. The New York Times you’re quoted saying this is when you decided that you wanted to pursue racing for Team Mexico in the Olympics. The New York Times said you said, “I’m doing this for the passion of the sport and to inspire others. I know I’m not going to win, but I want to prove that people my age and girls in general can push the limit. It’s about longevity. The guys do it.” Then I want to just read one more quote because I think this transition that happens in your life with motherhood, Mexican citizenship, and racing for another country. Your husband actually says, “It’s also the beginning of her career as a mentor of a new nation. I think there is a lot she can do and a lot of people she can inspire, the young and up and coming racers.” So you go from almost two decades of racing for the United States, for yourself, inspiring the next group of athletes coming up behind you. Now some of them are retiring now. Yet here you are still. You still go on. You’re racing for Mexico. You’re inspiring the youth of a country to pursue some of their dreams that they never thought that they would have the opportunity to do. So what has that done for your life these last couple of years? Would you consider the racing you’ve done in Mexico and the mentorship and the coaching that you’ve done the new purpose in your life?
Sarah: Yeah. I think what I love more than competing is being with the younger athletes and walking them through their hard spots. I’m still helping Resi Stiegler a lot. She calls me all the time. I didn’t assume that role or I don’t think I’m the all-knowing or anything like that. I just happen to get these people that I feel like I can help. What I love the most about being this athlete—race player coach is what one of my coaches calls it—is being able to interact as a coach and as an athlete. You have just such a different perspective. So here I am. I have a group of athletes that I’m working with. Most coaches don’t even know how to carve a turn anymore. I’m racing the course, running the course with them. So we can have specific conversations about a turn, the snow type, tuning the skis, the feeling of the edges. I have such a different perspective than most coaches can actually have. I think that’s made some coaches that don’t see the potential of it jealous or uncomfortable. That’s been a little bit of a conflicting issue in certain areas. I have certain coaches that really promote it with like Erich and my coach in Vail, Crawford. So I’ve had people that have had outlets for me to make this possible.
Then I do my own camp in Austria. I had an assistant coach and he’s like, “You can’t coach and race at the same time.” I’m like watch me. Yes I can. It does maybe detract from my own training, but at this point that’s not my purpose anymore to be the best in the world. My purpose is more to pass it along and keep going with it as long as I can. For me, the best part of ski racing is going down the course. The actual skiing part is the most fun. Skiing down the course is amazing, it’s exhilarating. Why would you want to give that up? So I have that along with—I’m perpetually 19. I think being here in Mexico has helped me grow up a little bit, but I’m perpetually 19. The girls I coach with are perpetually 19 because after 19 they go to college or move on, and I always seem to be with that PG level because I’m a player coach. So I’m racing along that kind of age limit. So my athletes are normally around that age. So I have this perpetual 19 year old mentality, which has been really fun.
Dr. Rosh: Is there anything that you have learned from coaching that you apply to your own skiing?
Sarah: It’s funny because I think about this a lot as well. Everyday I’m on the snow, I get to meet new people who know new and different things. I’m constantly like—I know life is a game of learning and teaching. So I know everybody I’m teaching I can also learn from. I know that there’s teachers everywhere. So every day I’m learning something. So I feel like every year I continue with the sport, the more I become a master of the whole realm of things. That’s been amazing for me. Most kids are giving the sport up when they go to college or after college. For me, it’s been a way to really get into the sport and learn and learn and be more in tune with what’s going on and the technique and the mental challenges and all those kinds of things.
Dr. Rosh: What mistakes do you see, if any, that young skiers often make? This doesn’t have to be technical. I just mean maybe at a high level. The athletes that you train, do you see common mistakes that they’re making? Maybe thinking about something or how their perceptions of anything? I could rephrase that a little. What should young skiers be doing more of or less of?
Sarah: There’s all different kinds of skiers. You have the kids that will just go as fast as they can, but never make it to the bottom. That frustrates me so bad. I’m like you will hike back up there and you make those gates. Erich always was a proponent of getting to the bottom, getting the time. You blow out of the course, it’s over. I always try to push the kids that are doing to really try and finish the course, make it through the course. It’s like playing the piano. Maybe you’re going to play it a little slower to make all the keys before you get fast. If you get fast, you start making mistakes. Get through and then you can start pushing, pushing, pushing. Or push three gates and then make sure you get through. So that’s something I work on a lot with younger kids. Then I think there’s so many distractions nowadays. Just making sure that—Some of these kids want to make it. I have Alexandro who’s a young Mexican racer that I coach who is just full of energy, full of life, has amazing goals. He wants to go to the Olympics in summer and winter. He wants to be a marathon guy and then a ski racer. He has these amazing goals, but he’s so distracted so easily by things. So just trying to keep him on focus and keep him watching the videos and manifesting where he wants to go.
Dr. Rosh: I just want to touch on one more thing on youth skiers. You brought this up. You touched on it a little about ski schools. Is for youth skiers who are committed—they commit, not their parents. They commit to wanting to become a high level skier. Is there a right time, age, or range that they should transition to let’s say a program that is year round or a ski school? Maybe places in the east coast and Vermont or out west.
Sarah: My dad always wanted—I was like I want to go to Burke or I want to go—He wanted me home. He wanted to be in charge. He didn’t want to lose his kid. So for me it was never really an option. I look at Lasse who is like—We’re living in Mexico and he’s just like, “Mom I just want to ski. I just want to ski.” So I’m like how can I make this possible? Do I need to be there helping you get there? Then we leave Federico behind. So it becomes this complicated push and pull. Is the ski school going to be looking out for my athlete, my daughter 100%? My son? Are they going to get washed into the mix and it’s just going to become that’s their education. I lost them as a daughter, and they lost them as an athlete. So I think it’s a really tough question. I know when Mikaela went to Burke her mom went with her. I don’t know how many kids are actually making it out of these schools alone onto the big stage. Maybe having a parent is more important than being in one of these academies. You can always make a year round program because there’s camps and things like that. You can hook on with other teams around the world. Is the American system the best way? Probably not. If you’re going to think about doing a school, you might want to think about Austria or Switzerland where they actually are known for creating world class skiers. So there’s a lot that goes into thinking about those things.
I’m also thinking about that as a parent of a kid who wants to ski race. I want to be there as his mentor because I feel like I have the experience, but at the same time it’s hard to be his mom. I try not to coach him too much because I didn’t want to push him away from it. So I basically ignored him on the hill. Finally last year he was like, “Mom, coach me. I want to be faster.” So that’s kind of the feedback I was looking for. You have these other parents that are so pushy that the kid’s like, “Ah, screw skiing. I don’t want to do that anymore.” Now Lasse’s just like, “I want to ski. I want to ski mom. I want to be with my friends. I want to ski.” So we’re trying to find the right way for him. He’s not sure if he wants to be a World Cup, but he said he did want to try and get a college scholarship so that he could race for a college at some point.
Dr. Rosh: We’re going to go back to that last part in a second. I want to just—We’ll start wrapping up here. There’s an article I read in February 2018. This was, I believe, right before you represented Mexico in the Olympics in South Korea. You said, “All the gurus talk about dying before you can be reborn. This Olympics will be a death for me, but then I will be reborn in a new direction. I haven’t committed to everything yet, but Junior Team Mexico is on the drawing board.” So we’re now two years after that when you said that. Looking back at that, where are you now as far as your rebirth?
Sarah: Well, I took a young Mexican skier to the Youth Olympics this year in Switzerland, which was a really cool experience. She was a first year FIS racing, which is the international level of competition where you can get rankings to be able to make it to a race like the Olympics. So we had to hunt down races, which became really complicated because South America had no snow at the beginning of the season. So we had a whole trip planned and had to cancel and replan. We went to South America and did something crazy like 14 races in 20 days or something like that, which is a lot. I raced right with her. I coached her. I mean there were some junior races that I didn’t do, and she did by herself, but she qualified for the Olympics in that series. We got to go to Switzerland and have the best time of our lives.
The best thing about the Olympic games is maybe not—Maybe for a lot of people it’s winning the medals, but just to be a part of something so global and so peaceful that you have kids from all over the world. Like my best friend at this Olympics became a girl from Iran, a coach from Iran. You hear all these conflicts with the U.S. and Iran, and we became great friends. We didn’t have that much differences between us. We had a lot of fun. We could talk about things. Thankfully, she spoke English. Going to the Olympics is more than just the medals. It’s being in a global community and being a part of something so big. Lausanne has the Olympic Museum. So we got to go see the history of the Olympics, how it formed. There was this French guy that was completely committed to developing—He spent all of his savings just to make the modern day Olympics happen. I’m so thankful. I hope we can go back to having big events like that without putting people’s health in jeopardy just because it is so powerful to be part of that global community that is in search of peace in the name of sport.
Dr. Rosh: That is a really nice way to put it. I’ve read that your goal is to—this was right before the Olympics in South Korea. You said your goal was to compete in two more Olympics. The second one, wherever it is—we didn’t know at the time—will likely be your last. Your son Lasse would be 18 and competing potentially in his first Olympics. You’d like to be the first mother to compete with her son. Is that still true?
Sarah: Yeah. I mean we still have six years until that. So we’ll see. Ski racing is demanding on the body. I’m starting to feel my age a little big. I have little spots. Keeping up that healthy diet and routine has just—Yeah. I want to do it for sure. This whole coronavirus confused me. I’m like well is skiing really that important. Is it just going to become this elitist sport now because maybe the flights are going to become crazy outrageously expensive. I read FIS wants to do the World Cup strictly in Europe maybe. So who knows where the sport’s actually going. I want to keep helping kids and teaching kids and being around that youthful vibe. Being on the snow really excites me after being in the heat for so long. It’s been nice to have the contrast. Yeah, definitely shooting in that direction. We’ll see what the world decides to do with this coronavirus.
Dr. Rosh: Well, I think that’s probably a good place that we could end here. I don’t know if there’s anything that you wanted to end with, any messages or any last thoughts here. There’s so much more that I know that I want to talk to you about and ask you about. You have a whole life in Mexico and surfing, which is a huge passion of yours. I think there are questions about the Flying Ravinos that I wanted to know about, but I think we can save that for another time. Is there anything? You may not have anything that you wanted to say. There’ll be young athletes listening to this. There’ll be adults who are embarking on a new time in their life. Anything?
Sarah: I don’t know. I don’t know. That’s hard.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah, yeah. No problem. Put you on the spot.
Sarah: For me, I’ve just been focusing a lot on consciousness and making everything a little bit more conscious. I think if we do that as a humanity, I think we can start really making this planet an amazing place to live.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. Well you’ve brought so much to my life. You brought so much to my daughter and son and wife’s life. You’ve changed our family and a lot of people that we’re friends with. You’ve changed their lives as well. You’ve been an incredible influence in so many ways. In fact, oftentimes we hear ourselves—Danielle and I—say, “What would Sarah want you to do in this situation?” It helps us to parent. It helps our children to stay focused during ski season this past year. Ruby would do the breathing exercises that you taught her at one of your camps. So you are leading the life and having the impact that you’ve set out to have. You went from influencing the young members of the U.S. Ski Team to now influencing the youth who may become future members of the U.S. Ski Team out there. So I want to thank you for the impact you’ve had on our life. I’m sure there’s many, many other people out there who feel the same.
Sarah: Thank you Adam. That’s nice.
Dr. Rosh: You bet. So Sarah, thank you so much for your time. I’m really grateful.
Sarah: It’s awesome.
Dr. Rosh: Really grateful for it. Perhaps we do, I’m thinking, a part two that may actually dive into ski technique. Perhaps we do a part two with Resi Stiegler on as well to talk more about actual tactical skiing. In the meantime, we have a lot to think about, a lot to listen to, a lot to learn from your wise words in this interview. So thank you again Sarah.
Sarah: What we know is we know nothing. So just go out there and soak it up.
Dr. Rosh: Excellent. Alright. Well that will do the recording I think.
The post Sarah Schleper: Five-Time Olympian On Mental Preparation, Elite Performance, Youth Skiing, and Living Life to the Fullest appeared first on RoshReview.com.
“When I saw that officer with his knee on George Floyd’s neck, it bothered me because 50 years ago that could’ve been me. It could’ve been me 20 years ago, and it could’ve been me today.”
Today we’re having a conversation with someone who can shed incredible insight, history, and experience with a topic that nearly everyone around the world is focused upon: policing.
Dr. Isaiah McKinnon, known by his friends as “Ike,” is the former Police Chief of Detroit, Michigan.
He began as a patrolman in 1965. He was one of the first African Americans hired by the Detroit Police Department, where many precincts were still segregated. He was in his 20s and had just returned from Vietnam where he served as a machinist in the United States Air Force.
He patrolled the city of Detroit during the rebellion of 1967, where he feared for his life—not from the people on the streets, but from some of his brothers in blue.
He rose through the ranks, from Sergeant to Lieutenant to Inspector, fighting crime in a majority Black city, while enduring the sting of racism and discrimination within his own department.
As a Sergeant and Lieutenant, he worked to expose and rein in the violent behavior of some of the law officers he supervised, only to be told by his supervisors to let it go.
In 1994, he became Chief of Police for the city of Detroit. This was an incredible moment.
Here was a man whose family fled the Ku Klux Klan in Alabama in the 1950s and came to Detroit for a better life, where as a teenager, he was mercilessly beaten by brutal white police officers in a department he was now in charge of.
Chief McKinnon had his work cut out for him.
Not only did he have to contend with a city known as the “murder capital of the world,” he had to dramatically reform the Detroit Police Department by dealing with a legacy of systemic racism and discrimination inside the DPD, and moving toward community policing and ending excessive use of force. He had to rebuild trust between the police and the community they were sworn to protect.
What’s just as amazing is along the way, he earned his college degree, a master’s degree in criminal justice, and a PhD in Administration and Higher Education. It was all part of his belief that the more you know about people and the world they live in, the better you can understand and serve them.
After retiring as Chief of Police, Dr. McKinnon went on to become the Deputy Mayor of Detroit from 2014 to 2016 and became a tenured professor at the University of Detroit, Mercy, where, after more than two decades of teaching, he retired in 2018.
This conversation was recorded one week after a video showed Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin kneeling on the neck of George Floyd until he died and people erupted in protest against police violence around the country and the world.
What Chief McKinnon says about this event is chilling—even as a police officer, he said, even if he was in his uniform, as a Black man in America—he said, “It could have been me.”
In this conversation, Ike shares his experience of being a Black cop in an organization and a system that for decades has engaged in brutal, violent, and too often deadly treatment of Black people—including himself.
He offers insight from inside the police department and takes us on a journey from segregated Alabama to the streets of Detroit, where, as a teenager, he was beaten by a group of white police officers known as the Big Four, to what it was like to patrol a city during a major uprising, to what he did to reform the police department as Chief and what he would do now to make change possible.
This conversation was such an incredible privilege. And one that was much needed to have.
And to top things off, Professor Danielle McGuire returns for this conversation. You may remember Danielle from the conversation with Attorney Angela Povilaitis in episode 6.
So without further ado, here is Professor Danielle McGuire and Dr. Isaiah “Ike” McKinnon in an incredibly emotional, powerful, and inspirational conversation.
Dr. McKinnon has also authored three books
North Between the Houses
Stand Tall
In the Line of Duty: A Tribute to Fallen Law Enforcement Officers from the State of Michigan
Transcription
Danielle McGuire: Well, it’s so good to be with you this morning Dr. Isaiah McKinnon.
Dr. Isaiah “Ike” McKinnon: Thank you. It’s good to be here.
Danielle: Thanks for joining me in this conversation. I really honestly can’t imagine talking to anyone else this morning who has, gosh, more experience, more insight, more knowledge, and knowhow about the crisis our country is facing right now than you.
Dr. McKinnon: Well, thank you. Thank you. It’s really interesting for me to have lived through a great number of things in my life and so have seen other things with people and to be able to talk about it in this time. As we know, this is a very turbulent time. I’ve always said that about other things that have occurred throughout my life too and wonder if in fact things will get better or they get worse. As always that there’s—what’s the song from Monty Python—Always Look on the Bright Side of Life.
Danielle: Yeah. You seem to have done that your whole life. I’m so excited to talk about it today because it really is—I mean I’ve studied a lot of people in history, and you’re definitely one of the most fascinating and most interesting. I’m so glad that we were able to meet in the last few years and that we’ve been able to work together.
Dr. McKinnon: Thank you so much.
Danielle: I’ll just say for the people who are listening. Dr. McKinnon and I met in our related work related to the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the 1967 Detroit uprising. We were on a number of panels together and we just maintained our conversation over these past years sharing a lot of similar interest in race and interracial history and policing. He’s been a great help to me in writing my current book on the Algiers Motel incident which we’ll maybe touch on in this conversation. So yeah. It’s been incredible. I wanted to start by asking you about your parents. Like I said, I just reread your autobiography. It’s called Stand Tall, which I urge everyone to try to get a copy of. There’s a story in there about your father being a catcher. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your father and a little bit about that story.
Dr. McKinnon: Oh well certainly. My father was born in 1900 in Union Springs, Alabama. My dad would always talk about not necessarily growing up, but also about his life and some of the things that happened with him. One of those stories that he would tell me is that he played baseball in the old negro league. Of course as this young boy growing up, you want to believe some of the things that your dad tells you, but not all of the things because I had never seen him play ball. My dad played in Montgomery and in Birmingham, and he’d talk about being a catcher. What really tipped this off for me was talked about being a catcher for Satchel Paige. The great legendary Leroy “Satchel” Paige who was known to be the greatest baseball pitcher ever. So my dad—I’m going to do my impression of my dad. He would say, “Boy, I’m going to tell you something. That boy Satchel Paige .” He said that, “It was hard catching him because the gloves that we had weren’t really tough like the gloves now. My hands would hurt.” My dad had these big tough hands. There was callous all over them. So he said, “Satchel, he could throw that ball. He could move it anywhere he wanted to.” So I’m believing this. I’m loving this. Not only him, but he said there was this other boy Booker T. Brunion who could throw harder than Satchel and he was a better pitcher than Satchel Paige. Well, I’d never heard of Booker T. Brunion.
So anyways, in 1967 I’m a young police officer. The Harlem Globetrotters came to Detroit and they played at a place called the Olympia Stadium. Their guest at intermission half time was none other than Leroy “Satchel” Paige. So I was a police officer. I’m in uniform. I was assigned to that detail, and I said I’m going to go and ask him. So I went over to Mr. Paige and I said, “Excuse me Mr. Paige. Can I ask you a question?” He said, “Son you can ask me anything, but don’t ask me about my mama.” Of course, I wanted to start laughing. I said, “Sir, did you ever play ball with a guy in Alabama by the name of McKinnon?” Satchel Paige kind of wiped his head and he thought about it. He said, “I don’t know. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. The name doesn’t ring a bell to me.” I said, “Oh okay Mr. Paige. Thank you so much.” I turned to walk away. On my mind at that time was I was going to go back and tell my dad that you’d been lying to me all this time.
As I started walking away, Satchel Paige he says, “Son, son, son. Just a minute. Just a minute.” So I stopped. He said, “McKinnon, McKinnon, McKinnon. Koda McKinnon.” That was my dad’s name. I said yes. He said he was a—and the term he used was hind catcher, which was an old country term for catcher. I said yeah, yeah. He said, “Boy I’m going to tell you something. Your daddy had these huge arms and these big hands. That man could play some baseball. He was one of the best catchers I’ve ever seen in my life.” He said, “I’m going to tell you something boy. If the color line had been broken at that time, your daddy would have been in the major leagues.” Of course, I almost jumped off the floor because he was reaffirming what my father had said to me all this time. Satchel Paige went on to tell me. He said, “Now, your daddy probably didn’t want to travel like the rest of us because he wanted a family.” He talked about those guys barnstorming, and that’s what they did. They didn’t make any money doing that. He said your daddy wanted to stay home and take care of his family. I was so proud of this.
So I remember I went home, and I said, “Well pop, guess who I met today?” He said who. My father had this way of expressing himself. He would kind of go back and he’d lean forward. He said, “Who’d you meet?” I said, “Dad, I met Satchel Paige.” He says uh-huh. I said, “Well dad, we talked.” He said, “What did he tell you son?” I said, “Daddy he told me you were one of the best catchers and best baseball players he’d ever seen. He said if the color line had been broken, you would have been in the major leagues.” My father said, “See, I told you that, but you didn’t want to believe me.” That’s really a true story in terms of my father. My father had taught me how to pitch. He taught me how to catch. Again, this was a man who was at that time had to be in his 60s, which you don’t believe, but those are things that happened. To think that my dad could have been up there with Jackie Robinson and Babe Ruth. In fact, my dad talked about the fact that he had played against Babe Ruth and those guys when they were barnstorming.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: So that’s a story that always stands out about me and my father.
Danielle: Yeah. Opportunities lost or given up and denied.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah. Ironically, I went back to Alabama I think in 1989 to talk to some relatives because I wanted to get more information. One of my relatives that I had never met before, I got a name from I don’t remember where and I went to his home. He told me these stories about him and my father. Of course, in the country, as they would say, they had no baseballs. So this man’s name was Brassall. He said, “Son, let me tell you.” It was really interesting how they all started off with something like that. “Son let me tell you. We didn’t have no baseballs, so we had to make our own baseballs. What we would do is we would skin a squirrel.”
Danielle: What?
Dr. McKinnon: Yes, yes. He said, “We would skin a squirrel and we would get some rubber bands and we would roll them all up in a ball. We would take a needle and sew the squirrel hide to make a baseball.”
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: He said, “That’s how we played ball. None of us had shoes.” It was their way of life because they did not have the ability and certainly location to play in the 1910s at that time.
Danielle: Wow. That’s country ball.
Dr. McKinnon: That’s country ball. Yes.
Danielle: So you were born in Alabama.
Dr. McKinnon: Born in Montgomery, Alabama.
Danielle: Montgomery, Alabama.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah, yeah. My dad moved the family to Chicago when I was a month old.
Danielle: Wow. You were so little.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah, yeah. There’s a reason that he moved the family because my father worked for a company called the Southern [inaudible] Company. The other colored workers—as they were called at the time—they asked my dad to represent them and go and talk to the boss about getting the colored workers a pay raise.
Danielle: Uh-oh.
Dr. McKinnon: My dad had the audacity to go to this white man and ask for a pay raise for the colored workers. This man was incensed that this colored man would come to him and ask for a pay raise for the other people. He told my father to get out of his office. He immediately told my father he was on the midnight shift. Now, the midnight shift, they had to put coal into these huge furnaces by yourself. This was his punishment. Of course, my dad went home and came back at midnight. He said it’s scary, it’s eerie, but it’s also a learning experience. He said that he was on the shift and he’s putting these coals into these big furnaces. At some point, probably around 1:30 or 2:00, he said he heard these men yelling they were going to kill him, and they called him by name. He said he could see these men dressed in their KKK robes. My father, he said, “Son, let me tell you something.” He said, “We have always been fast runners, the McKinnon’s, but I realized how fast I was at the time.” My father ran home, which was probably about three or four miles from this plant and told my mother we had to leave. My father went to the Greyhound bus station and took a bus to Chicago.
Danielle: That night.
Dr. McKinnon: That night. Then he sent for the family. I was a month old at the time.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: It saved him and saved us because who knows what would have happened.
Danielle: Right, exactly. That’s the sad reality for so many people. One question to the white man, to the boss, and suddenly your wife is at risk.
Dr. McKinnon: Absolutely. It was a point in life for him and for us because he got to see a different part of life that he hadn’t seen before.
Danielle: Yeah, yeah. So you guys moved to Chicago. Do you remember growing up in Chicago?
Dr. McKinnon: No, no. No. I was a little boy, and I think I was four or five when we went back to Montgomery. I was in Montgomery until I was nine years old.
Danielle: Okay.
Dr. McKinnon: So I started school there. When I was nine, the family then moved to Detroit for better jobs because of the automobile industry.
Danielle: Right. So that would have been around 1953/54.
Dr. McKinnon: 53. Yes, yes, yes. We moved into the Brewster Projects.
Danielle: Oh gosh.
Dr. McKinnon: I’ve never seen anything like this. These huge buildings and all these black people staying in these buildings. We lived at 529 Erskine apartment 168.
Danielle: Wow. How do you remember that?
Dr. McKinnon: I remember that because when you’re 9/10/11 years age it stands out because I had never seen anything like this. There were swimming pools, which we didn’t have. There were places to exercise. There were people that spoke to us in a nice manner, not like the people in Montgomery.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: As a young boy, seeing people who didn’t speak to you, who treated you poorly, who you just didn’t feel comfortable with. What I do recall is there were two catholic priests. I’ll never forget this. There was a catholic church that was not too far from my home. These priests would walk down the street in their priestly garb, and they would stop and say good morning, good afternoon, and talk to us. My mother, she was kind of dumbfounded that here are these white people talking to them like nobody else would.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: So it had a profound impact on my life. Of course when we got to Detroit, it was totally different.
Danielle: It was totally different. Yet, you were still in an area that was still in some ways segregated.
Dr. McKinnon: Oh it’s totally segregated. I started in Lincoln Elementary School, which is still there now. I was I think in the fifth grade. I was shocked that there are all of these young kids who spoke differently than I did because I had a southern accent. All these teachers, black and white, at Lincoln Elementary School. They were all so nice. Not that the teachers in Alabama didn’t want you to learn.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: But the teachers were different in that—I remember Mr. Stasovich, a white man. It was very interesting because his son and I connected sometime later. I was at a function and the man said his name was Stasovich. I said, “Do you have a dad who was a teacher at Lincoln?” Oh yeah, oh yeah. I said, “Please tell him that I was one of his students.” He did and it was very nice. His dad, he didn’t remember me, but the fact is that this man stood out too. To have someone have a profound impact on my life.
Danielle: Did you feel like as a kid that the teachers thought you could be somebody in a way that teachers in Alabama didn’t think that about you as a young black child?
Dr. McKinnon: The teachers in Alabama from the first, third, and fourth grade—I remember a teacher by the name of Ms. Laura Thomas. The kids were afraid of her because she was so tough. To me, her portion in life was to get us to think that we could do better. To let us know that everything that we are seeing there wasn’t the end of the world. It was important for her to get us to study and to think about the future for our lives. Because think about her growing up in Alabama and the other teachers who had no future other than to be teachers. Well, there’s nothing wrong with that. To see young black kids graduate, that was it. You’re going to have a certain kind of job and that was it. They always showed us, told us, “Look, this is not the end of your lives. You have to learn to study and most importantly to read.” Read, read, read.
Danielle: So you came to Detroit. Do you remember—That must have been close to the Hastings area. Do you remember what Hastings Street was like?
Dr. McKinnon: Oh yeah.
Danielle: An area that’s now gone.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah, yeah. I lived at 4125 St. [Anne ph?] after we moved from Brewster. Look at these addresses. I remember all of these addresses.
Danielle: That’s amazing.
Dr. McKinnon: For me to go and see Hastings Street, which was a black area. I mean there were whites who owned businesses, but blacks owned businesses in these areas. To see all these white people who were doing so different and more prosperous and progressive than the people in Alabama and to have them let you think that things could get and be better for us. I would walk up and down the street—In fact, when I was 10 years old I got my first job. I was shining shoes at a barber shop on Hastings Street. Reverend Murray owned the barber shop. I would shine shoes and clean up the hair off the floor when I was 10. I think I was paid something like four or five dollars a week, but that was heaven for me.
Danielle: It’s a lot for a 10 year old at that time.
Dr. McKinnon: Oh yeah. What really stood out for me was these men always talking about life in the future. They were not stuck in the fact that there was segregation and all of these things doing on. They would always say to me, “Listen son. Things are going to be better for you.” They would stress also the importance of learning. Interesting for me too is they would say, “Don’t do or be like me. We want you to have a better life than me.” So not only was my dad saying this, but these other men were saying this to me. They would probably say this to all the other young black kids, but they really stressed this to me because obviously they saw something that was different. So I remember as I was shining shoes and I went home, and I told my dad. He said, “Son, let me tell you something. You can do this at home.” I didn’t even think about this. He said, “Yeah, there’s a church across the street.” Which was New Bethlehem Baptist Church.
Danielle: Oh wow.
Dr. McKinnon: He said, “A block and a half from here is Reverend Franklin’s church.” Aretha Franklin’s dad at New Bethlehem Baptist Church. He said, “Son, let me tell you something. These deacons come here on Saturday and Sunday and they’ll want their shoes shined.” He says, “Boy, let me tell you. You can make some money doing it.” Now my dad was an entrepreneur and I didn’t know what the word went.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: So this was just amazing to me. My dad he sent me to a hardware store on Hasting Street. He said, “Here’s what I want you to buy.” He gave me a list. I got this list of things—boards and things like that—and my dad and I built a shoe shine stand in front of my house at 4125 St. Anne.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: It was a two seater as I would say. The catch here was my dad would say, “Okay, I want you to go to the store.” A paint store. I came back with these two buckets of paint and we painted the shoe shine stand and it was pink.
Danielle: Pink?
Dr. McKinnon: I said, “Dad, we can’t have a pink shoe shine stand.” He said, “Son, let me tell you something. People are going to come from miles around to see this boy with a pink shoe shine stand. Just wait.” At this time in 1954 I was making $20 a week shining shoes.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: It’s unheard of. My dad was making $40 a week at the auto plant, but I was making $20 shining shoes. These black men would come by and they would say things like, “Son, you understand you shine a good pair of shoes.” I said yes sir. Black men at that time, the big shoe was Stacy Adams or Stetsons. I would shine those shoes and they would love that, and they would give me a nice tip—a quarter or something. The big tips were half dollar.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: So that’s 1954 and 1955 I was doing that.
Danielle: You must have been privy to a lot of grown up conversations in that setting.
Dr. McKinnon: Oh yes.
Danielle: How did that influence you? Do you remember any of the deacons or preachers that came by that really stand out to you?
Dr. McKinnon: Well what they would do is they would talk about their lives. I remember this because—Think about this in terms of the way the life was at the time for black people, in particular black men. They would say to me, “Listen, we don’t want your life to be like ours. We want you to grow and do much better than what’s happened for me and other people in our lives.” They would say things like this. I’m sorry this phone is ringing right now.
Danielle: It’s okay.
Dr. McKinnon: They would say, “Listen. Things are bad right now for us colored people. There’re places we can’t go and even do here in Detroit, but at some point it’s going to change.” This is at the point Dr. King was speaking out after Rosa Parks did what she did. It was totally different. It was really just seeing how they would continue to try and inspire to make my life better than theirs.
Danielle: Did you have a sense of that as a young man, a young boy, from Montgomery what had happened in Montgomery in 1955/56 and sort of the emerging civil rights movement as an adolescent, teenager?
Dr. McKinnon: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. See what was interesting to me is that certainly my father was in tune with what was going on than my mother. My father would always talk to me about something I mentioned last week in terms of as a young black man, colored man, you’ve got to be mindful of what you do and what you say because you could lose your life. That was right after [inaudible]. He would say, “Listen, always make sure you know where you’re at. Always make sure you know what you’re doing, but listen, always maintain your dignity.” As a young boy 10/11/12 years of age, that meant a lot. At the same time that was happening, in the winter time I got a job delivering coal because we had all of these stoves that burned coal. The man who owned the coal yard was a man by the name of Mr. Bunche, Ralph Bunche’s relative.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: I didn’t know who Ralph Bunche was. I was the only young boy working for him. Mr. Bunche, he was like Creole colored. He would talk to me about life. He said, “Listen here son. The world is different in different places.” He had traveled through Europe, he had travelled to the far east, he had travelled to the south pacific. He said, “Now son, one day I want you to visit these places because there is so much.” The thing that really stood out to me was he started asking me questions about classical music. I didn’t know anything about classical music. He would play this music in the coal yard. I remember this one day I said, “Mr. Bunche, what is that?” He said, “Son, that is Beethoven.” I said who is Beethoven, you know? He said, “You don’t know who Beethoven is?” I said no sir. He said, “Do you know who Strauss is?” I said no sir. Unbelievably, Mr. Bunche closed down the coal yard, took me up to the library, and said, “Listen. I want you to hear this.” So back in those days they had the big LPs and you would put the headset on, and you could listen to the music. I listened to The Blue Danube, and I went wow. Then I listened to The Tale of Vienna Woods and I said, “My god. This is absolutely incredible.” Then he said, “Now listen to this.” I heard the music and I said, “Oh that’s the Lone Ranger’s theme.” He said, “No, no, no, no. This is much more than the Lone Ranger’s theme. This is in so many movies that you see.” I said wow. That peaked my interest, just opened up my interest in all kinds of music. Because we had been listening to regular music.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: That coupled with his talking to me about life, and then he told me about his relative Ralph Bunche, the first African American to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. I said wow. I would talk to people about this. They thought I was nuts. You’re talking about classical music. We want to listen to James Brown or Bill Doggett or something like that. To me, it was a window to the world. So in 1959, the family moved to 15817 Holmur in northwest Detroit near [inaudible]. Of course it was a nice home. I went into the attic and there were all these books. They were encyclopedias. I remember I said wow. They were written in the 1890s.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: I read every one of them, every one, because of this insatiable desire to learn. Of course it was outdated, but I learned. Then I compared that to what was happening in the 1950s.
Danielle: That’s incredible.
Dr. McKinnon: Oh yeah. This was part of my life.
Danielle: It’s wonderful to think about these older men in the community lifting you up and giving you a window onto the world, giving you access to possibility and opportunity. Then because I know part of your story, it’s heartbreaking to think of men like Rotation Slim who could only see you in a very narrow negative small way. I wonder if you don’t mind telling us about Rotation Slim and your experience with him as a teenager.
Dr. McKinnon: Oh sure, sure. I had had no interaction with Detroit police, none. In fact, I remember my friends saying to me you’re just too nice. You have to do something bad. Anyways, when I graduated from Garfield Junior High School and was admitted to Cass Tech, which was one of the best schools in the country. In fact, at that time they said it was the second best school in the country. I was very proud of that.
Danielle: Yeah. It’s a good school.
Dr. McKinnon: So back in 1957, the first day of school was a half day for high schoolers. So I went to Cass that first day. Then I decided that I was going to go back to Garfield and speak to my favorite teacher of all time Mr. Raymond Hughes because he had had such a profound impact on my life in the two years that I had been at Garfield. So I went to the school, probably 1:00/1:30 or something. He was so proud of the fact that I was there at Cass Tech. As I started to leave the school, I’m walking out. I get to the curb and this police car pulls up, and it was known as the Big Four. Now I had seen them before because so many young men in my neighborhood had been rousted or beaten up by the Big Four. We all knew Rotation Slim because he was thought of to be the most vicious and vile person in the neighborhood. It’s like every black person who grew up in my neighborhood, they knew Rotation Slim or had some experience with him. So as I’m starting across the street, three of these men jumped out of the car. Very big, tall white men. They grab me and threw me up against the car. I’m 14 years old. They started swearing at me. I said, “Sir, sir, sir.” The more I said sir and asked questions, the more they proceeded to beat me up. They were good at what they did. They beat me from my neck to my waist.
Danielle: So you couldn’t see it.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah, yeah. I said sir, sir. I mean the name calling and the anger on this one man’s face. That was Rotation Slim. Just the anger and the names—Of course he called me the n-word and so forth. As they were doing this, I was looking behind them. I could see all of the other black people there and I’m wondering why nothing’s happening, why they aren’t saying anything. I realized they couldn’t.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: If they had said something, something would have happened to them and probably they would have gotten killed. So after they finished doing that, they told me to get my black ass out of there. I was crying and I ran home. Now my mother was at home, my dad was at work, I didn’t tell them. Never told them at all until years later. At that time, if a black person had gone into the police station to make a complaint against the white police officers, he or she probably would have been locked up or beaten. I said nothing. But that evening I made myself a promise that I was going to become a police officer—a Detroit police officer—and certainly not like those vile profane mean brutal people. I remember keeping this to myself and not saying anything at all, but it stayed in the back of my mind that I was going to do that. I wanted to do other things, but I wanted to become a police officer to make sure these kinds of things didn’t happen to anybody else. Ironically in 1965, I joined the Detroit Police Department. Just before the rebellion, I was working with a group. We were driving down Woodward Avenue, me and this other officer. He’s white. He said, “Let’s stop and get some coffee.” I still don’t drink coffee. So I was going to get orange juice. So we walked into this restaurant. It was called Big Ben’s right across from the Bonstelle Theater. As we walked in, in uniform, this officer said, “Oh, there’s Rotation Slim.” I tell you that anger that I had at that time came to me that I wanted to kick his ass, you know.
Danielle: Now you’re in a much better position to do it.
Dr. McKinnon: Much better position. I was a black belt in karate. I was much younger than this guy. He’s sitting in the rear of the restaurant in a booth. I made a beeline to him. I tell you, my intention at that time was to rip his head off because of what he’d done to me. I stood there over him as he was drinking a cup of coffee. I said Rotation Slim. He looked up at me. He said, “Yes officer.” Which was a far cry from 10 years earlier when he had called me all these names and beat me up. It grabbed me. I came back to the person that I was. I said, “Rotation Slim. Listen, you did something to me a number of years ago that changed me life.” I’m looking at him and his hand with a cup of coffee is shaking. He said, “What did I do officer?” I said, “Well, really it doesn’t matter what you did, but I want to thank you because you had a profound impact on my life.” “What did I do officer?” So I’m thinking to myself he had kicked so many black people’s asses it didn’t matter. He wouldn’t remember me from anybody else. I turned around and walked away.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: When I tell that story to people, they say, “Well I would have kicked his ass.” In particular young black people. I said let’s think about this now. It’s 1967. I said if I had beaten or killed this white police officer, no one would have known what he had done. I said it would have been my word against his and I would be in jail right now.
Danielle: Yep.
Dr. McKinnon: But think of what I’ve been able to do since that time. Most young people understand that. So that was Rotation Slim and my interaction.
Danielle: In doing some of my research for my book, I kept encountering older black men in particular—and women too—and they all mentioned Rotation Slim. Like everyone of a certain age—black people of a certain age—that I’ve encountered in Detroit either had something to say about the Big Four or Rotation Slim. I kept wondering who was Rotation Slim. Like it’s a nickname. Who was he really? I found an article in the Detroit Free Press from when he retired.
Dr. McKinnon: Oh when Brian Flannigan called me?
Danielle: His name was Jack O’Kelley.
Dr. McKinnon: Jack O’Kelley. I knew that, yes. I wasn’t going to reveal it because I don’t want to have his family—if there’s some remnant of his family—realize what an ass he was, you know.
Danielle: Right, right. I’ll tell his name. His name was Jack O’Kelley. What struck me about this article, and I looked at it again this morning, and it was written in 1972. So it’s still a reflection of the times, but it’s revealing in the disparity between how African Americans saw Jack O’Kelley “Rotation Slim” and how white people saw him. So the headline was that he was “one of the most savviest coppers in Detroit”. One of the first sentences in the article about him said that things would be a lot better if we had more cops like him.
Dr. McKinnon: More cops like him. Yes, yes.
Danielle: It twisted my stomach because I know that even in 1972, of course, you’re still dealing with that legacy of hatred and segregation and even Klan presence in the Detroit Police Department.
Dr. McKinnon: Yes.
Danielle: But I can’t help but think that there are people who would still say that today.
Dr. McKinnon: They still think that way, some do. Thinking about his now, there was more than one Rotation Slim. There are a great number of black people, probably lost their lives, and never investigated. Think about 1967 when I was shot at by my fellow officers. I mean I could have been killed. They would have said a sniper killed me.
Danielle: Yep. So take us back to that. It’s 1967. You’re two years on the Detroit police force. You joined in 1965, right?
Dr. McKinnon: Yes.
Danielle: What precinct were you in?
Dr. McKinnon: I was assigned to the second precinct, but during the rebellion I was assigned to the 10th precinct because that’s where most of the things were occurring.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: So I lived at 3265 West Boston. It was in the heart of the rebellion. I had gone to work at the second precinct. That night I got off about 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning. I was in my uniform. I had a 1965 Mustang Convertible, black over green. It was wonderful I thought. My first car that I owned. I left work and was driving home. I remember I drove off the Lodge freeway onto Chicago Boston exit. I made a left turn on Chicago. Again, I’m in uniform. I had my badge on. I had a two for the precinct and windows down. This car with two officers pulled me over. I said, “Please officer.” “Get out of the car they said.” Of course, they started using the racial epithets. I stepped out of the car, and I said, “Please officer.” Had my hands up. Every time I see these young people with their hands up, I think about that.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: People don’t realize the impact these kinds of things have on you and certainly on other people. Anyways. So I’m standing next to my car. Thank God the door is open. There are these two white officers. The older one had silver hair, brush cut, and the other one had dark hair. He was standing behind him, and they both had their guns up. The older one, he said, “Tonight you’re going to die nigger.” I’d heard this word before. It was like time stood still because I could see him pulling the trigger on that gun. As I saw that, I dove back into my car. As I dove into my car, I grabbed the steering wheel with my left hand and pushed the accelerator with my right hand, and they started shooting at me. I sped off. Thank God they didn’t chase me because we’d get into a gun fight and then what would have been. So I got back to my apartment and I called my precinct. I said to the sergeant, “Let me tell you what happened.” I explained that to him. His words to me were, “Well Ike, you know we have some assholes out there.” So you’re telling me what we have. Nothing was ever done. Nothing was ever done. Again, it just went on to show to me the disparity and the inequality. We lost, what, 43/44 people during the rebellion.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: I think except for one they were all black.
Danielle: They were majority black. In most cases they were killed either by the national guard or by police officers.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah, yeah. yeah.
Danielle: Originally the story was that they were killed by snipers, but subsequent investigations both by the Free Press and other people showed that they were not. I mean the most egregious case, of course, is the Algiers Motel incident where a group of officers from the 13th precinct raided the Algiers Motel—a black owned and patronized motel. They found a group of young black teenagers hanging out with a couple of white prostitutes, and they decided to terrorize and murder them. Then they left and they pretended it never happened. They “forgot” to write a report, refused to write a report, and then wrote a report after the fact that was false. They were eventually brought up on charges but were never held responsible for the deaths of the three young men that they were responsible for that night. You were not an eyewitness to it literally in the sense that you weren’t at the Algiers Motels, but you were in the Detroit Police Department when that happened.
Dr. McKinnon: Yes.
Danielle: I wonder if you could just shed a little bit of light on what that felt like being inside the police department when that was going on because in your book you say it divided officers. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Dr. McKinnon: At the time of the Algiers Motel, we didn’t know about it. Then towards the end of the rebellion, the word leaked out that something had happened. That these three young men had been killed by Detroit police. So I remember talking to certain white officers about this, and they would say to me, “Well obviously they would have to do it because obviously they feared for their lives.” That’s the catch phrase in law enforcement. We feared for our lives and safety. I’m saying to myself come on guys. There are three guys. Then the more the word got out in terms of what had occurred, we got angrier. Not every white officer believed the story. Not every white officer believed that these officers were innocent, but a great number of them believed that this is what happened. What do you do when somebody has a gun or shoots at you? Obviously, they were shooting at them. Of course, we found out that was different.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: It became a point for me as the person who was beaten up by the police, was shot at by the police, and shot at during the riot rebellion that there’s a lot wrong that’s going on. When you’re in a situation where you have racist people who are saying and doing things around and in front of you—Let me tell you my first night as a Detroit police officer.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: I mean you don’t believe these things happen, but they did. Here I am a young police officer, had spent four years in the military, the last year to date in Vietnam for my country. I signed up August 2nd, became a Detroit police officer in the academy. My first day at the second precinct I was on the midnight shift. I did not know the miniscule number of blacks on the Detroit police department. So I walked into the station in uniform first night. I said, “I’m Officer McKinnon. I’m new.” “Just go upstairs.” That was it, the guys behind the desk. So I walked upstairs and in the squad room was this huge room that had a ping pong table, a pool table. There’s a place that we would have roll call. So I walked in. There had to be 30 officers there. Everybody was white. I walked in and everybody turns and looks at me. I saw this guy, a police officer, that I had gone to high school with. I said, “Ed!” He turned his head. Yeah. I said well lord, here we go. So the sergeants and the lieutenant come up for roll call. They would say roll call, and everybody would go into a line formation. There were two lines of officers. They would call your name and your assignment. So I’m the last person in line. I’m the new person. I don’t know what’s going on. So they say two names, scout 2-1. Those two officers are assigned to the second precinct first detail. 2-1, 2-2, and then they get to scout 2-7. They called this officer’s name. “Here sir.” “McKinnon, scout 2-7.” I said here sir. This officer, at that point, yells out at roll call, “Jesus fucking Christ I’m working with a nigger.” Of course, all of the other officers, including the supervisors, started laughing. My first day. This is my introduction.
Danielle: Your very first day.
Dr. McKinnon: I said nothing because I knew I had to stay there and stop these kinds of things, in addition to the Rotation Slims, from doing this to other people. Other officers—later on—had told me they had left because these kinds of things had happened to them. So after roll call I went down to see the car I was working. I see this officer that made this dispersion comment. He’s sitting in the car. I walked over and I said, “Excuse me. Am I working with you?” He said nothing. I said, “Excuse me. Am I working with you?” Nothing. He looked straight ahead. I then went back to the sergeant. I said sarge. Sergeant Anderson as the sergeant. I said, “Excuse me sarge, who am I working with?” He said, “You’re working with that guy.” He called his name, which I won’t call at this point. I said oh okay. So I went over to the car, got in. He never said a word to me for eight hours.
Danielle: Eight hours.
Dr. McKinnon: Eight hours. At 5:30, I remember there’s a restaurant called Hygrades on Michigan Avenue. He’s driving, pulls over the curb, turns the engine off, walks into the restaurant, sits behind the counter, and orders breakfast for himself.
Danielle: Just left you in the car.
Dr. McKinnon: I got out, ran into the restroom because I didn’t want him to leave me because that could have been the next thing. I got in the car. Never said a word. That was the pattern for some of the white officers. Now, there are other officers who—I remember Andy Parker, older white officer. My second or third day they assigned me with him. He said, “Hey, what’s your name?” I said Ike McKinnon. He said, “Oh, nice to meet you.” Which is a far cry from this guy. Another officer, Frank Mitchell, who to this day is still my friend. He says, “I’m Frank Mitchell. Listen, there are some very bad and bigoted guys on this department. Don’t let them force you to leave this job.” I said, “Thank you. You have really made a difference to me.” He and I became friends and to this day are still friends. That’s what 50 or so years from that time.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: That was my first day as a Detroit police officer. So I say to other black officers, if they’re treating us this way, what are they doing to the regular people on the street? Of course, ’67 and what happened to me before was indicative of what they had done and how they treated people.
Danielle: Yeah. So you were able to have an insight seat in that world for a long, long time.
Dr. McKinnon: Yes.
Danielle: You were able to have an inside seat in that world for a long, long time. After the rebellion, of course, maybe you were a sergeant by then when Dr. King was murdered in 1968.
Dr. McKinnon: Yes. I was still a police officer, yes.
Danielle: You were in the department then. Was that a similar feeling that is happening now? I guess what I’m trying to say is what we’re seeing happening across the country are these uprising. To me it has the feel of 1968 Chicago, but it also has the feeling of ’67 Detroit but not entirely. I’m just wondering having lived through both of those moments of extremely high tension and uprisings what you think.
Dr. McKinnon: When Dr. King was killed, it’s ironic that I was on the afternoon shift at the time. We heard this. I was devastated. I think most black people were devastated at the time. We just couldn’t understand that here was this man who had done so much for the world who had lost his life. Now, of course, we had gone through President Kennedy being killed and then we’d gone through Malcom X being killed, but it was different. Here’s a man of peace and he was killed. I remember I was working with this officer who brought it back to the reality for me. He said, “You know, probably Martin Luther King had himself assassinated.” I said what? He said, “He probably had himself assassinated so he could have the colored people riot again.” One of the few times I exploded.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: I swore at this guy. I said, “Are you out of your fucking mind? Where are you getting this from?” He said, “Well, that’s the word you know?” I said wait a minute. Please. Let’s not even talk about this. Black people in general I think had a sense of hopelessness because this was our leader. This was the person who had brought hope for so many years to the community. It was something that tore us apart. I still, to this day, regret the fact that I didn’t go to his funeral. I wish that I had. Of course, it was different because at that time we were on alert and police officers couldn’t leave. There was a sense of hopelessness, I think, within the African American community that here’s this great person who lost his life and what’s going to happen now. The United States is going to blow apart because of this.
Danielle: Yeah, and it did. There were riots and uprisings in hundreds of cities across the country at that time.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah, yeah. But there was nothing like it is today in terms of all these young people coming together and saying, “We matter. We matter, and we don’t want anymore of this stuff.”
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: I think this became a focal point because what they’re doing is trying to take away the reality of what happened to Floyd and say oh those radical left and right and all this kind of stuff. The reality is that what’s the underlying cause? The underlying cause is all of these years of brutality and killing people. If we go back to Tulsa, the number of people that were killed there. We can go on and on and on. I remember in 1958 they found this black man in the river in Georgia. He was wrapped up in barbed wire. I think he had these cinder blocks tied to his legs and he was shot in the head. They were talking to the sheriff. The sheriff he said, “Worst case of suicide I ever saw.”
Danielle: Oh god.
Dr. McKinnon: The mentality.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: Your life meant nothing. People are tired.
Danielle: Yeah, extremely tired.
Dr. McKinnon: Extremely tired, and they’re angry.
Danielle: They’re angry.
Dr. McKinnon: White and black. I got a message this morning from a former student of mine who lives in Germany. Another message from a former student of mine who lives in Minneapolis who were saying the same thing. So all these things that I’ve experienced and others. I’m just one part of this big puzzle that experienced it and was able to write it and talk about it. Other people, they are showing their anger. Well I’m angry too, but I display it in a different way.
Danielle: Right. You really work to make change from within the system. So when we talk about police violence and the systemic problems that enables it, I feel like you’re one of those people who have been there working on the inside to make change. So as a patrolman, you worked to get other officers not to behave in ways that were violent and brutal towards citizens. A lot of officers paid a price for speaking out against other policemen that way. Is that right?
Dr. McKinnon: There’s no question that in particular black officers and white officers were ostracized or fired because they did. Think about this. You’re riding with an officer who—Okay. One of the most egregious ones for me. I’m riding with this young white officer and it’s 4:00 in the morning. There’s this older black man who is walking to work with his lunch pail. Now I knew this and had seen this with my dad.
Danielle: I was going to say. Yep.
Dr. McKinnon: So this officer pulls up next to this man, this old black man, and he says, “Hey boy, come here.” I’m going oh god, oh lord don’t do this. Please. He says to him, “God damnit, what are you doing on the street boy?” The old black man, who was the epitome of my father, he says, “Sir, I’m going to work.” This officer was probably in his late 20s, he says, “God dammit. You’ve got to get your black ass off the street.” At this point I said to this officer, “Look, you will call this man sir or mister. Do you understand that?” He looked at me and I said, “I’m going to tell you something. If you continue to talk to this man, I’m going to kick your ass right here.” This old man, he had never seen anything like this before. He goes—I know he was just shocked. So the white officer was just, “You don’t talk that way to me.” I said, “You don’t talk that way to this man. Do you understand that? This is not a boy. This is a man.” I said, “Sir, where are you going?” He said, “I’m going to work.” I said, “Fine, you go on about your way.” So this officer, he says, “I’m going to tell the supervisor.” I said fine. You tell the supervisor. So we went into the precinct and he has his meeting with the supervisor. Supervisor came out to me and he says, “Ike, what happened?” I said, “Sir, this is what happened.” He said okay. They sent the white officer home. I mean this is unheard of, unheard of.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: It was just incredible to me to see these kinds of things continue to happen over and over again. If it happened in front of me, what’s happening to others?
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: You can just imagine the name calling that was there today. Black women were commonly locked up. White women were not locked up. If a white woman was locked up, the officers behind the desk would let her go. In particular if black guys locked her up. This is the inequality we saw. You spoke out or you had to speak out. Other officers were not like me who didn’t speak out. It was important for me. My father talked to me about maintaining your own dignity.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: My dignity was telling them listen. If you do something in front of me, I’m not going to let it go. I’m going to stop you. So I’d reached a boiling point when I became the young sergeant. I was a sergeant at the 10th precinct. Ironically, I had a corporal, a driver. My driver that night was a young white guy. We’re on the midnight shift, and he’s driving. We hear a police chase that starts in the 2nd precinct that’s coming north towards the 10th precinct. So I said to the driver, “Let’s head up this way.” Because I know that at the end of every chase, somebody’s going to get your ass kicked. That’s the way it is unless you were like me who didn’t believe in that stuff. So the closer it got, the more I realized that something was going to happen. So we’re a block away and we hear they’re out of the car. So I said turn here. That’s where they’re at.
This is what I saw. I saw four or five Detroit police cars in a circle with their lights on and these three young black boys on the ground being beaten and kicked, hit with sticks, and so forth. I could not believe what I was seeing. So I jumped out of my car and I yelled, “Stop it damnit, stop it.” One of the officers yelled, “Supervisor! Supervisor! Get out of here.” At that point, I grabbed one of the officers and we tussled. As we tussled, I grabbed his badge off. He ran and got in his car. So I grabbed another officer and we tussled. I grabbed his gun. The third officer, I grabbed him, and I said, “You’re not getting away from me.” The only black officer that was there, his name was Atwood Stevenson. We had graduated from the police academy together.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: I said put this guy in your car and take him to the precinct. He did. I started heading back into the precinct to deal with this. The officer who was driving me, I said, “So what did you see?” Here’s what he saw. He said, “Well the lights got in my eyes and I couldn’t see anything.” I said, “You are a cowardly asshole. You’d better quit this job because I’m going to make sure you’re fired.” He did quit. He did quit. So we get back into the station. Now, think about this. I mean you had to have guts, or you’d be a little crazy. Maybe I was a little bit of both. I had experienced too much. We had the three boys. I get into the station and my boss was an inspector. Someone from the precinct had called him and said, “Ike is crazy. He’s locked up this police officer.” My boss he said, “Ike, what the hell’s happening out there? God dammit you’re going to make these officers lose their job.” I said sir? “God damnit Ike,” he said, “These officers are only doing their job.” I said, “Sir, do you want to hear what I have to say?” “God damnit Ike and he hung up.” At that point, a lieutenant at the precinct where these officers were, he said, “Sarge, what happened?” I said, “Well, they were kicking these young men’s ass.” He said, “Well you know they were only doing their job.” I said, “Their job was not to beat them up.”
Danielle: Right, right.
Dr. McKinnon: He hung up on me. So at that point, all of the officers and other officers from the different precinct showed up at the 10th precinct to scare me, which wasn’t going to happen. Black and white officers, black and white. So I’m in the room and I’m doing my report. I’ll never forget what the sergeant said to me. He said, “Ike, listen. You’re doing the right thing. Stand up, stand tall.” That’s where I got the name of the book from.
Danielle: Oh wow.
Dr. McKinnon: I said thank you. He said, “Don’t let them scare you.” So I’m typing my report. I ask the young men, I said they all brothers. Twins and an older one. They were 14 and 15 years of age. They had stolen a car. I said, “So who do you guys live with?” “We live with our mother.” I said, “What’s her number?” They gave me the number, and I called. Her response was so vile and profane against her sons that she didn’t care how her sons got their asses beat. In fact, she said they need to get their asses whipped. I said, “Mam, let me explain to you. I’m the sergeant and this is what happened to your sons.” She said, “I don’t give a fuck. Lock their asses up.” I said, “No mam. I’m going to bring them home to you.” “God damnit, I don’t want their little black asses home.” So thinking about this in terms of how bad this was. I had no complainant. The mother wasn’t going to complain. So now I’m out there making this–
Danielle: On a limb.
Dr. McKinnon: This move and nothing. So I took them home. She says, “Get the fuck away from my house.” To me, you know. So I got back to the precinct and these officers are still there. I had nothing. So I said to the officers, “Look, I’m going to let you go this time because I realize that you’re not all bad.” I’m saving face because there’s no complaint. Of course, they thought I was the greatest guy in the world. The reality is these officers should have gone to jail and nobody was going to prosecute.
Danielle: Right. The pressure that was put on you by your superiors to not bring any kind of punishment down on those officers. Or their fear for them instead of the citizens that they’re sworn to protect. Was that just the status quo?
Dr. McKinnon: Status quo. Police officers didn’t go to jail.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: Police officers did not go to jail. They might have quit their job, they might have been fired, but they didn’t go to jail. These officers should have gone to jail.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: In fact, one of the officers was a police officer that I graduated from the academy with.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: We’re friends you know. He apologized later. He said, “Man, it just went out of my hand.”
Danielle: I could see how tensions would be high and feelings and emotions would be high. I could empathize, I guess, with police in those situations. How do you change that culture where—I mean of course a lot of that has to do with training and you always seem to be able to keep your cool in these situations. How do you train people differently so that they act in a responsible and protective way instead of a violent way?
Dr. McKinnon: Well, so much depends upon the individual. So that’s how you start. It’s the kind of person that you bring into that job of law enforcement because police officers have to understand they’re not there to chastise. They’re not there to beat. They’re there to serve and protect. So, of course, they know what to say. “Oh, I’m there to serve and protect my community.” So you have to have regular evaluation of officers. What they’re doing, what they’re thinking, and understand that there are those who are going to slip through the system but not a great majority of the people in the police department. There are those who you want to get them to know that you just aren’t going to take this. So it starts at the top and goes down, but this regular evaluation training is a part of it. For instance, I did diversity training at a great number of [inaudible]. I was doing the diversity training up at this suburban community, and we were talking about certainly not beating people and certainly you as a law enforcement officer what your duties are. I said to them—there had to be probably 50 officers in the room male and female of different races. I said, for instance, there might be some gay officers in your department. I’ll never forget this very large officer. He said, “What? There ain’t no fucking fags on my department.” I said, “Well, you never can tell. There might be a large proportion or a small proportion.” He said, “Chief, there ain’t no fags on my department.” I said, “Well, you never can tell.” [inaudible] officer who was sitting next to him. She said, “Well, I’m gay.” This is at this diversity class. She said I’m gay. This is what he said. He said, “You can’t be no fucking fag. I want to fuck you.”
Danielle: Oh my god.
Dr. McKinnon: In the classroom. In the classroom.
Danielle: You had your work cut out for you.
Dr. McKinnon: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You see, this is what you’re dealing with. So the kind of people that you bring into this job of law enforcement, they have to be people who are international and they have to be able to understand what’s going on in the world, and that there are different kinds of people is what my father used to say. They don’t.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: They have been raised a certain way and that’s it. The world is black and white. You’re either right or you’re wrong. This is what we deal with. So training is fine but having the kind of people who really want to serve and protect regardless of race.
Danielle: Right. Is this part of the reason why—I should tell the audience in case they, well, we’ll introduce you at the beginning but—you became chief of police of the city of Detroit in 1993, which is just amazing? I wish I lived here then. Is that part of the reason why when you were chief, it was important for you to promote people who had bachelor’s degrees or undergraduate degrees or higher degrees in college?
Dr. McKinnon: There’s no question. There’s no question because what I saw is that people who had a higher quality of education also had a higher quality of understanding of people. Unfortunately, the history of law enforcement work is that you had to be big and strong and tough. No wonder those people became [inaudible] not necessarily to understand what was going on in the world. It’s like being in the military, you know. You go into war and you kill people. Well, we don’t kill people. We’re not supposed to. We’re supposed to understand the climate of the people we’re dealing with. That’s why we have to be really mindful of who we bring into this law enforcement field. At the time that I came onto the force, probably none of the people had higher degrees of education. So many of them had brought other people on who were high school or less than that, a GED. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but I figure you have to be exposed to the complete surroundings around you. So that’s what I said. That you had to. It was important for me to see the quality of education. So I think that all of the people in the extreme hiring were either master’s degrees or PhDs. It became important for me—If you became my executor, you had at least a bachelor’s degree or probably higher. I was not going to promote you unless you had that.
Danielle: Now, had you already earned your PhD by the time you were chief?
Dr. McKinnon: Yes, yes. In 1981.
Danielle: Okay. So I know that you went to college and I knew you had a master’s and then a PhD from Michigan State. Did you do that throughout—Like you were a full time student and a full time police officer during those years?
Dr. McKinnon: Yes. Yes, yeah. People were shocked that here’s this cop going to school and doing this. It became more of not a challenge but a right for me after ’67 because I saw these stupid people out in the streets and what they were saying about people. Then I saw others who were great police officers who had seen the world and who had a great knowledge of education. Once, to me, you became educated to the world, you understood things better.
Danielle: So you’ve been the chief of police. When you became chief, I mean just thinking back to how you became a police officer—that horrible and brutal encounter with Rotation Slim—all the way to the point where you’re in charge of the entire system, how did you tackle reform in the Detroit Police Department?
Dr. McKinnon: Well I knew that the history had not been great. In fact, the previous chief—Chief [Hardy ph?] —had gone to jail. No one, to me, had gone out and tried to truly empathize and be an active part of the community. So mine was to get the community’s trust. To let them know that there’s someone who really cares for you and thinks about you. I let them know that. I sent out number one, a video of which I addressed all of the officers in the department. Number two, I addressed the people in the city of Detroit. I said this is what I’m going to do with you. I’m one of you. I grew up in this city. This is what I experienced. I’m not going to let this happen to you. People started to understand that. It’s ironic that 25 years later people are still saying thank you for that. That was important for me to—I mean I went every place in the city. Churches and schools. It was so important to go out and talk to schools because young people, they see you and they understand that if you’re genuine and you have a heart. That was a show to them.
Danielle: Right. Was it hard to change the inner structure of the police department in terms of just down to basic behaviors and assumptions of patrolmen?
Dr. McKinnon: Well, again, it starts at the top. I remember this one police officer saying to me. “Chief,” he said, “you know you have some good ideas. You ain’t going to be here but for four years. The most is probably five or six.” He was right in terms of that. I said to him, “Look, you’re going to conform during those four years or so or I’m going to fire your ass because you’re going to do what’s right.”
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: I said let’s think about this. You’re here to serve and protect. I continued to say this. The law enforcement code of ethics. The first paragraph basically states it. As a law enforcement officer, my fundamental duty is to serve the community; to safeguard lives and property; protect the innocent against deception, the weak against oppression or intimidation; and to respect the constitutional rights of all to liberty, equality, and justice. I said that’s the basic foundation for law enforcement. Once we get away from that, we’re not law enforcement officers. We’re rogue people. That’s what I try and live by. I said, “That’s what you as law enforcement officers should live by. Somebody can piss you off. Let me give you an example of something. In all the time I was a police officer, certainly I got into fights, but I would always say to the guys who wanted to fight me chances are that we get into this fight, I’m going to kick your ass.” That’s right. I’m a blackbelt in karate. I’m good at what I’ve done. I said, “Chances are we get in a fight, I’m going to kick your ass. Now let’s not do this because not only am I going to kick your ass, but you’re going to go to jail.”
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: The ultimate threat I would give to them is that if you start kicking my ass, these other officers behind me, they’re going to kick your ass. They’re going to do a better job than I would do. Only one guy took me up on it in all the time I was a police officer. I said, now that’s a smart guy. It’s not worth it. So they would laugh. They would say, “Man, you’re different.” I said, “Yes, I’m different because I don’t want to kick your ass.”
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: I said, “I’m not going to do it with a stick. I’m going to do it with what I have here.” Again, there’s so many guys who I came in contact with throughout the years, especially when I became chief. They wrote me letters saying thank you for the way that you treated me. I humanized them.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: That becomes part of the problem that we have and have had for years—dehumanization of black people. In particular black men.
Danielle: Yeah. I know you’re watching everything that’s happening around the country with very unique eyes with this history. If you were in charge of all the police departments in the country right now, what would you do? What can they do right now? What should they be doing?
Dr. McKinnon: Well, it’s interesting you say that because when I was deputy mayor, I was invited along with police chiefs and deputy mayors and mayors from around the country at the White House. They were talking about the job of law enforcement, but none of them talked about empathy. None of them talked about training as such as making sure we had the right people on the force. I told them the story of my being beaten up when I was 14. I told them the story of being shot at by my fellow officers. I said, “Look, in the United States of America we have over 700,000 law enforcement officers in this country. There’s 330 million people in this country. Please understand this. We’re not going to change all those people. We have to change. We have to get them to make a difference with the kind of people that we bring on our jobs to make sure that they’re not rogue police officers who would do these kinds of acts.” Nobody said anything.
Danielle: Not a word?
Dr. McKinnon: Nobody said anything.
Danielle: Wow.
Dr. McKinnon: It bothered me that all of these police chiefs, all these mayors and deputy mayors around the country, nobody said anything. What I will do is exactly what I said before. Making sure that we are mindful of the kind of people we bring on the jobs. Number two, I would make sure that certainly the training, but making certain that those people who are law enforcers are regularly monitored and checked. Not just by their fellow officers because those officers could have been the same ones that were rogue officers before who got into a higher rank.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: Those are the primary areas I would look at because we have to make sure that we don’t lose anymore people. We know that supervisors lie, other offices lie, but how do we change that? We don’t want someone to say that’s the worst case of suicide I ever saw. We don’t want someone to say, “Well, Rodney King kept getting up. He was resisting.” I mean these are things that people have seen for years and years. Or like the officer I was in the car with who made that comment. How do you talk to people? How do you talk to people? It’s very simple.
Danielle: Right. Do you see them as fellow human beings or do you see them as things that you control and manipulate and brutalize?
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah. So let me tell you my last story I’m going to tell you.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: There was an area in the second precinct that was undercover called Little Mississippi. It was two buildings that all white people lived, and the white people moved up from the south. My partner and I at the time were black. We were the only black car in the second precinct. There was a dispatch call to that location. They never sent black officers to that area because of who they were.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: So dispatcher says, “2-7, Scout 2-7.” They give us the address. There is a fight in front of the building. I said, “Radio, this is Scout 2-7. You know who we are.” The dispatcher says, “2-7 I know who you are, but you’re all we have.” So Jess, my partner and I, we drove to that area. As we get in front of the building, 3700 Lincoln was the building. There are these people out front fighting, white people fighting. I mean they’re really going at it. So as we stepped out of the car, they stopped fighting and here’s what they said, “No, no, no, no. We don’t want the nigger cops. We want the real police.” So now in another world, I might have gotten upset and wanted to whoop their behinds. So I said to them, “You want the white police?” “Yes, we want the white police.” I said, “Okay. Now listen, do you promise to stop fighting if we leave?” They said, “Yes, we don’t want no more nigger cops here. We want the white police. We promise we won’t fight.” I said, “Okay. I want you to hug each other.” It’s unbelievable.
Danielle: That’s crazy.
Dr. McKinnon: They started hugging each other. They stopped fighting.
Danielle: United in their racism.
Dr. McKinnon: Absolutely. So I got on the radio. I said, “Radio, this is Scout 2-7. We have resolved the problem. They promised not to fight anymore as long as we don’t come back.” Of course the dispatcher started laughing. He says, “I understand Scout 2-7.” I said, “Thank you radio.” Jess, my partner, and I, we rode away, and we laughed. We said there’s a purpose to some of this stuff. Understanding where the racism is, where it isn’t. It’s certainly in the police department. It’s certainly in this location but think about this. If we had gone out and beat these people or locked them up, what was going to happen to them? Chances are we would have had a complaint against us. So the end of the story is I was in that area on another location with a white officer. We had stopped into this record shop—I was getting an orange juice and he was getting coffee. He said, “A man just walked past here with a rifle.” I said come on. He said, “He just walked past with a rifle.” We stepped out and I don’t see the man. Right next to the building was an alley. I got to the alley and there’s this guy walking towards the alley with this rifle. I said, “Hey stop.” Turned around, he shot at me.
Danielle: Oh my god.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah, yeah. I got on the radio. I said radio, this is who we are. Guy just shot at me. He ran into 3700 Lincoln, which is that same address. He said, “We have a car that’s on the way.” Which was the Big Four. Another Big Four. Not Rotation Slim but another one. So we get there and—It’s tragic. It’s funny. We get there and the crew—all white officers except for me. As we get ready to walk into the building, this guy up on the second floor says, “Officers, it’s okay for you to come but we don’t want no nigger cops in here.” Alright. So this is my life. So this officer who was a crew chief he said, “What did you say?” He said, “We said we don’t no nigger cops in here.” So they grab him, and they must have beat the living crap out of him. He said, “Where is the guy who shot at our officers?” He said, “He’s on the second floor.” So as we get to the second floor, we see the guy and they arrested him. All these southern whites that were there, and they were saying, “He shot at the police officers?” “Yes. He shot at Officer Ike there.” “Well damn they shouldn’t have shot at no Detroit police officers.” So the crew chief, he says to me, “Ike, this is your arrest. You lock him up.” This guy says, “Ain’t no nigger going to lock me up.” The officer commence to beat the living crap out of him, right in front of everybody else. So the people start yelling, “He shouldn’t have shot at that nigger cop.” I’m telling you.
Danielle: Oh my god.
Dr. McKinnon: This is my life. Anyway. So I have the guy handcuffed and I’m taking him down the steps. He says, “God damnit. Ain’t no nigger going to take me to jail.” He starts twisting and I’m letting go and he falls down the steps. Now sometimes I subconsciously wonder if I had let him go.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: So he gets to the bottom of the steps and his head’s busted. He woke up and he goes, “Sir, I’m sorry. I’m sorry I called you a nigger. I won’t call you a nigger no more.”
Danielle: Oh my god.
Dr. McKinnon: I’m saying to myself God, thank you for giving me these experiences so I can laugh at it. People don’t believe this or will believe that this is the reality of the life that so many of us have faced.
Danielle: Yeah.
Dr. McKinnon: We have to get through that to have a better not only police department or city but a better world. We can’t let every impediment like an asshole who’s saying and doing those kinds of things dictate our lives.
Danielle: Right.
Dr. McKinnon: But there does come a time—and I think we’re seeing it now—where people can’t take it anymore. They can’t take the dehumanization and the pain and the trauma. I can imagine watching this and having all of those experiences has been very difficult.
Danielle: It’s been extremely difficult. When I saw the officer with his knee on the man’s neck, it really, really bothered me because 50 years ago that could have been me. It could have been me 20 years ago or it could have been me now. That bothers me because it hasn’t changed that much.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah.
Danielle: Has the quality and the intellect of those people who are involved in law enforcement really changed? Has it gotten better? That truly bothers me with what we have right now.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah. I hope that it’s the beginning of a better world and a better system. That’s all I can hope for right now. I think we see people wanting to destroy the world that we have right now, and there are some things that need to be destroyed.
Danielle: There’s some things—That’s right.
Dr. McKinnon: Racism, white supremacy, yeah.
Danielle: Those old attitudes. The number of young white people who are saying to me, “We have white privilege and you don’t. White supremacy is part of that, but we have to speak out against white supremacy, white privilege.” So many of those young people have said this who have spoken to the media in the last few days or so.
Dr. McKinnon: Yeah, yeah. That’s a start. That’s a good thing. That’s a change. That’s a difference from the past, which is helpful.
Danielle: Well, there’s so many things we could still talk about. We didn’t even touch on your decades long career as a professor, but we’ll have to do that again. I know that we’ve been talking for a long time and you have other things to do. Are there any other things you wanted to mention to our audience before we go?
Dr. McKinnon: I’ve had a great life. In spite of those things, that doesn’t dictate my life. I was fortunate enough to travel a lot, to have a great life and great family, to have some great friends. You’re one of those people.
Danielle: Thank you.
Dr. McKinnon: What I try and do is say here’s what I can do to help people, to make a difference, and that’s what I will continue to do. In two weeks I will turn 77 and I’m not going to change. I’ll keep working to try and make a difference with that, with everybody. I’ve listened to people throughout my life, and they’re people had a profound impact. My dad, as I was a young boy, said this. He said, “Son, there are good people and bad people in every group and every race in this country. Remember that. I don’t want you to be one of those bad people. I hope that I wasn’t one of those bad people. That I tried to do everything I could to make a difference. That’s why those senior citizens that I spoke with. That’s why I take every effort, every chance I get to talk to young people about life because they can be better. They can do better. They don’t have to be subjected to the kinds of things that I was subjected to or the people before me. It’s important for me to share that and certainly the education being a professor at the university meant so much to me and young people. Ironically, those young people—both black and white—they wanted to know about those experiences. This is what I still try and do.
Danielle: Yeah. Well, you’re an inspiration to me. I wish you a very happy birthday in two weeks. I hope that we’re able to celebrate many more as friends, and I thank you for your time today and everything that you’ve done to make a change in our world.
Dr. McKinnon: Thank you. Thank you for what you’re doing, and you’ve done.
Danielle: Thanks.
Dr. McKinnon: Thanks and have a great day.
Danielle: Thank you. You too.
The post Dr. Isaiah “Ike” McKinnon–A Black Police Chief and the History of Police Brutality appeared first on RoshReview.com.
“I try to be cynical, but it’s hard to keep up.”
For this episode of Conversations, we venture into the world of finance and speak with Jared Dillian.
Jared is truly a fascinating guy with incredible insights into the world.
I first came across his insights after reading an expose about him in the NY Times back in 2011.
Jared worked as a trader at Lehman Brothers starting back in 2001–just weeks before the terrorist attacks of 9/11. He started with Lehman as an index arbitrage trader and then as head of the ETF (or exchange traded fund) desk. During this time, he routinely traded over $1 billion a day in volume.
His tenure lasted 7 years and ended with a front row seat into the financial industry’s collapse and Lehman Brothers shocking bankruptcy.
After the financial collapse, instead of seeking a new position with one of the big financial firms, Jared started his own financial publishing business, the Daily Dirtnap.
And it is from the Daily Dirtnap that I’ve come to know Jared so well.
The Daily Dirtnap is a 3-page newsletter that is delivered to me by email each morning and has helped shape my beliefs not just about finance, but life in general. Honestly, it is pure gold.
In fact, other than reading the NY Times every morning since 1996, there is nothing I’ve read more consistently or with more anticipation than Dillian’s The Daily Dirtnap.
He’s been described as one of the industry’s most original, entertaining, and contrarian voices and referred to as “the Dr. House of trading.”
His readership is wide ranging from casual investors to professional traders and hedge fund managers.
But wait, there’s more.
Dillian also publishes the publication the 10th Man—which has the motto “it is a duty of the 10th man to disagree”—which takes a very different spin on the financial markets. It is also one of my favorite publications and one that I encourage you to try out, especially because it is free.
Other newsletter publications of Dillian’s include ETF 20/20 and Streak Freak.
Beyond newsletter publications, Dillian has also authored two books,
His first, Streak Freak: Money and Madness at Lehman Brothers, was described by Bloomberg as a disturbingly candid memoir about a poor kid who quit the U.S. Coast Guard to chase his dream of becoming a trader.
And Publisher Weekly said Dillian offers a candid look at the demise of a corporate behemoth.
Dillian’s second book, All the Evils in the World,” has been described as a riveting tale of a high-stakes options trade gone bad—or good—depending on each of his many memorable characters’ perspectives. This novel is a finely wrought study of the people who pull the levers behind the curtain of the markets.
Even after all this, I have one more endorsement of Dillian’s work. Jared started a Personal Finance talk show on Smart Talk Radio and WCGO called The Jared Dillian Show.
If you are a Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman fan, I’ve got to tell you that Dillian blows these guys out of the water.
You can listen and even call in live Monday through Friday from 4 pm to 6 pm Eastern time.
As you can see, Jared truly has the rare ability that combines sheer volume of writing with crisp, intelligent, and interesting ideas.
His work never lets me down and always keeps me thoroughly engaged.
So without further ado, here is my conversation with Jared Dillian
The post Jared Dillian – Financial Trader, Analyst, Author, Radio Show Host appeared first on RoshReview.com.
“Everybody has empathy but not everyone has the courage to show it. If everyone shows it, we can make our community, our country, and our world a better place.”
For this episode of Conversations, I pushed myself a bit to leave my comfort zone.
Today’s episode is with Jennifer Granger, who I recently met back at the start of the school year when our daughters became friends.
The minute I heard Jennifer’s story, I knew I wanted to learn more about her.
Jennifer was adopted to a caring family but one that she would describe as economically and emotionally unstable.
She grew up in a small town in Connecticut that would not allow her to be a volunteer firefighter because she was a woman.
From Trumbull, CT, Jennifer went on to live in cities across the United States including San Francisco, Dallas, Atlanta, Sacramento, and finally metro Detroit, which is where we met.
Jennifer’s superpower is her ability to connect people of all backgrounds.
This has led her to a life of giving through philanthropy.
And let me just state for the record that I practiced saying the word philanthropy so many times before this interview yet I still got it wrong.
Now let’s hear more about our guest.
Jennifer Granger began her philanthropic work while living in New York City, where she joined her first nonprofit, the Junior League, an organization dedicated to social change in communities. Her passion for charitable work quickly expanded to multiple organizations in the New York area, including the Pajama Program, a nonprofit that provides new pajamas and books to children in foster care. From the Pajama Program, she was inspired to co-create a new nonprofit, Spirit of Hope, where they helped provide scholarships to kids in the foster care system.
Jennifer moved to Sacramento, CA, in 2013 and continued her passion for philanthropy by helping and advocating for dozens of charities and nonprofits, including Sacramento Children’s Home, Make-A-Wish, City Year, Salvation Army, Crocker Museum, and Sacramento Regional Family Justice Center. Her work was honored many times, earning her multiple awards in the Sacramento area, including the City Year Ripple of Hope Award and an award from the Broadway Musical Gala.
Jennifer and her family moved to metro Detroit in 2017.
While you’d think Jennifer would push on the brake pedal to adjust to her new city, she actually pressed on the gas and now dedicates her time with organizations such as Gleaner’s Community Food Bank, the Detroit Music Hall, and Empowerment Plan, Fashion by Philanthropy, Humble Design, Lighthouse, Starfish Family Services, Beyond Basics, and still finds the time to serve on the governor’s task force on women in sports in Michigan.
Jennifer was recently honored by The Community House and awarded the “Pillar of Vibrancy” for her work in philanthropy and education.
Jennifer lives by this quote: “Everybody has empathy but not everyone has the courage to show it. If everyone shows it, we can make our community, our country, and our world a better place.”
In preparing for this interview, I asked some of Jennifer’s friends for background information and one told me (and I quote) “Jennifer would give the shirt off her back to help someone. Come to think of it, she literally has given her shirt off her back.”
While this interview just scratches the surface of Jennifer’s work over the past decade, it introduces us to someone who at a young age wouldn’t accept no for an answer and has put this tenacity to good use by dedicating her life to helping others.
Now…there is just one more thing that I want to mention before we get going. Although Jennifer is an avid Detroit Tiger’s fan, at the very end of this interview, we briefly talk about the 1986 Mets – the team she loved growing up. We talk a bit about game 6 and the miraculous victory by the Mets. I could not for the life of me remember which NY Mets player hit the final pitch, who scored the winning run, and the name of the Red Sox player who made the infamous error at 1st base. So of course I want to state that now.
Game 6 of the 1986 World Series ended after Mookie Wilson hit a dribbler that went through the legs of Bill Buckner, which allowed Ray Knight to score from third and gave the Met’s the victory.
The Met’s go on to win Game 7 and become the World Series Champs.
So like the Mets comeback of 1986, let’s listen to another comeback story.
Without further ado, here is my wide-ranging conversation with Jennifer Granger.
The post Jennifer Granger – A Life of Giving Through Philanthropy appeared first on RoshReview.com.
“Why would I be wound up? I’m either ready, or I’m not. Worrying about it right now ain’t gonna change a damn thing.”
– Floyd Mayweather Jr. just before a fight, as recalled by Paul LevesqueThis is a really great episode for anyone who wants to learn more about studying for high-stakes exams and test taking in general.
And instead of me doing the interviewing, I had the honor to be interviewed by Jessica Veale, a talented and motivated PA student at Duke University.
Jessica is the host of the wonderful podcast “The PA Process”.
In this interview, Jessica and I explore test-taking strategies—but not your ordinary test-taking strategies.
We talk about some common learning theories such as retrieval practice, the testing effect, and elaboration, and uncommon ones such as the illusion of knowing.
But where things get really good is in our discussion about:
If you are a student of any kind or someone who has to take a high-stakes exam, I promise there is so much value for you in this episode.
I encourage you to set some time aside, turn up the volume, and listen to this wonderful conversation with Duke University PA Student and host of The PA Process podcast, Jessica Veale.
AUDIO TRANSCRIPT
Jessica Veale: Hi everyone. My name is Jessica Veale. I’m the creator of The PA Process. This podcast is dedicated to giving advice to pre-PA students, connecting with current PA students, and anything related to the PA profession as a whole. Thanks for tuning in today and let’s get started. Welcome everyone to season two episode two of The PA Process. On today’s episode, my special guest is Dr. Adam Rosh, an ER attending physician and the founder of the well-known question bank Rosh Review. He’s here today to share tips on test-taking preparation, strategies, and tactics. Welcome, Dr. Rosh.
Dr. Adam Rosh: It’s great to be with you, Jessica. It’s really wonderful to be able to reach out and speak with all of the great PA students around the country.
Jessica: Thank you. So Dr. Rosh, as a current PA student, I’m quite familiar with Rosh Review and all that it has to offer. But for my listeners who may be unfamiliar with it, can you explain it and what it is and what your motivation was for creating such a useful study tool?
Dr. Rosh: Yeah, absolutely. I think most people who are in the health professions at some point in their career have taken a standardized test, certification exam at some point and have used a Qbank—a question bank. Rosh Review at its core, it’s a question bank. How that question bank is formulated and structured is very different, I’d say, than most types of question banks that people engage with. It’s not necessarily obvious on the surface. I think the attraction to question banks is based on a lot of good data that we have on the testing effect or retrieval practice. That’s another name for it, right. So when we want to actually test our knowledge because one thing we have to be very cautious of when we’re studying is to avoid something called the illusion of knowing. So just reading something in a textbook and saying to yourself, “I got this. I know it.” You’re probably lying to yourself in one way or another.
The way to solidify your knowledge—one of the ways at least—is through the testing effect or using retrieval practice. Ultimately, multiple-choice exams are one of the best ways to do that. So we get a question in a question bank and we quiz ourselves. We have to then pull that information out of our brains. Every time we do that, your neurons are making stronger and stronger connections. Whether you know very well the answer or not, you have to think very hard about it. As itself, the retrieval practice is really critical. What we’ve done in Rosh Review is to take that and amplify it. So you have a question with answer choices, you use the testing effect, and then you have this explanation that comes after. This is what a lot of people give us feedback about of why this is such a valuable research for them through their training. So essentially, these comprehensive explanations are structured in a way that was built around how I studied.
This kind of goes back to ultimately why this ended up being called Rosh Review. When I first started it, I named it something else. I named this product Next Step, and my wife laughed at me. She said it can’t be Next Step. You have to make it Rosh Review. I think I’m at least a modest person, although I’m sure I have tons of flaws as well. We went with Rosh Review because of the method of the content, of how the content is put together. So when you’re reading the content in Rosh Review you may notice that it’s very patternicity, believe it or not. What we include for learners is content that is organized in a way that is logical, it’s supportive. Each line kind of supports the other. It allows you to build connections as you’re reading it. So this amplifies the concept of the testing effect. It really provides a one-two punch for studying. So that’s a long-winded answer to that question.
Jessica: No, that’s perfect. It actually kind of falls into my next one. I suffered my first semester of PA school from this illusion of knowing that you are referring to. I battled with the need to make sure I reviewed every PowerPoint lecture, required reading, and then rarely found enough time to actually test myself on what I had studied. With your method of Rosh Review or this question bank, I would love to hear your thoughts on how you incorporate passive learning and making sure you have the content knowledge with active learning.
Dr. Rosh: Absolutely. This is something that, I would say, the majority of students deal with at some point in their career. In fact, I dealt with this probably up until my third year of undergrad. I didn’t know how to learn, right. So I set out on my own personal journey of learning how to learn. It was due to that journey that books and education and learning became so valuable to me. Going through a health profession school, the amount of information is enormous, right? We all know that. A lot of the traditional ways of engaging in that content has to do with highlighting and rereading and rewriting your notes, over and over again right.
What’s really fascinating is as much as I am in people’s lives to help them pass exams and do well in their classes, I also spend a lot of time studying failure. I do that because I want to understand what are the behaviors that are leading to people not performing how I believe that they can perform. Because if you’ve made it this far, it’s unlikely to be a medical knowledge issue or a knowledge issue in general, right? It’s almost never the case. If you don’t pass your PANCE but you made it to PA school, 99% of the time it’s not a knowledge issue. It’s something that you’re doing in your studying. Oftentimes we hear this line. We hear, “They’re a great clinician. They’re great with patients, but they just can’t pass the exam.” Right? So that attracts me. I love to take a deeper dive into those situations. I often—I have many, many people that have reached out. I think this is where the greatest impact comes for me in my personal life in that because I struggled with similar things that I get to reach out and work with these people. So I look forward to that.
So oftentimes if it’s not due to a distraction at home, it’s about how they’re studying. Almost always the person says to me, “Yeah, I rewrite the notes over and over again until I know everything.” Then I say to them well, you think you know everything. Because it’s in a format and a context that is very familiar to you. The minute you take it out of that context, you won’t be able to answer that question. That is exactly what an exam does. It takes the fact or the critical thinking out of the textbook page or the review book page and it moves it into a different context. So you have to be very mindful of that when you’re studying and preparing. I think if you have time to prepare—like you’re studying for a certification exam or you’re in a classroom, you’re studying for let’s say a rotation exam—it’s okay to do a first round of note taking, a first round of reading. That’s totally fine. You need to get familiar with it. The next step then is to employ educational techniques and theories that we know work. So some of the things that work for me, which I think works for other people as well, is while I’m reading, I will try to make connections in my brain. So not just digest the information that’s been given to me but start elaborating on that information. What that means is to take details and to talk through it. Start asking why. Why is this the way it is? How do these things relate to one another? And to talk my way through it.
In fact, I’m working on a test-taking course right now. I was just doing some experimenting with it. I opened up a review book, a very popular review book that PA students use, and I just read pretty much one or two lines. From that I was able to elaborate and create an understanding of topics that I never even thought about before. It was like osteomalacia and Rickets. After years and years of just kind of thinking like I knew it, I was able to build a really strong foundation around those topics. I won’t go into the details of that now, but it was really eye-opening. So things like elaboration, making connections will help get past the illusion of knowing.
The testing effect though is the number one way to get past the illusion of knowing, right? That’s why people love Qbanks. It’s important, right. It’s an important thing. Now obviously I have a conflict of interest here. I have a product that we have Qbanks. So I would say this whether or not I was involved in Rosh Review, but it’s important that people know this. That that exists. I think if you look at the science that using the testing effect will help you get past the illusion of knowing. What’s even better is reading something, maybe taking notes, highlighting, then engaging in a Qbank or the testing effect, and then going back to those notes. You’re going to start understanding the material as opposed to just memorizing the material.
One of the most important things that you could do in this process of study, of reading notes, highlighting, engaging in a Qbank is to write down or somehow make note for yourself of the areas and topics that you get wrong. Because what that is telling you is you don’t know what you don’t know. That’s a class statement. The more and more you can document what you’re getting wrong and then fix that, study it, learn it, eventually you’re going to end up knowing so much more. The amount of material that you don’t know you don’t know is going to be so much less. That is actually one of the tricks to performing well on any type of standardized or certification exam. The more time you have to identify your unknown unknowns, the higher likelihood you’re going to score high and excel.
Jessica: I can personally vouch for that. Like I said, first semester I was doing the just reading as much as possible, copying my notes. Then second semester I really started to incorporate the question banks, Rosh Review. I could see the level of recall improving. I could regurgitate some things, but when I would be asked a question it would be difficult to give an answer. That’s that illusion of knowing. You think you know something when you’re studying it, but when you’re asked a question not being able to retrieve what you’ve been studying for so long. So I can definitely vouch for that. When it comes to taking the test, what approach do you take when reading exam questions? For example, some people say you should read the answer choices first. Some say read the first and the last sentence of a question. What have you found to be one of the more effective strategies?
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. So this is a very common question. I think it’s important and it’s a good question you’re asking because so many people ask it. I think though it matters less than we think. So approaching an exam, the number one thing that is most beneficial—believe it or not—is confidence. If you go into an exam saying, “I’m gonna fail. I don’t know the material. I’m not confident.” You’re going to lose points. Just the nature of your psychology. There’s a lot of studies that show that the simple act of writing down or verbally reciting positive thoughts before an exam leads to increased score. So right, that’s fascinating. You can apply that to lots of things in life, especially in sports and things like that. So okay. That’s the first thing in actually like exam day.
A lot of people—I’ll get to your direct question in a minute, but I think there’s a couple other really important points. A lot of people talk about studying the last minute. Do I study on exam day or the day before? How intense should I be studying as the exam is approaching? There’s a story about Floyd Mayweather. Some consider him one of the greatest boxers of all time. I read an interview of him. The interviewer was conducting the interview the day of a really important boxing match for Mayweather. The match was at like 7:00 p.m. The interview was at 11:00 a.m. The interviewer asked him, they’re like, “Aren’t you nervous? You’re just on the couch here talking to me. You’re walking around. You’re watching TV, you’re laughing. You’re playing ping pong.” Floyd Mayweather said—essentially and I’m paraphrasing here—is, “All my training is already done. How I perform today was decided weeks ago. I just need to show up.” That’s very powerful. What I take away from that is when you’re preparing for an exam, you’ve spent weeks to months preparing for it. Therefore don’t try and pack in last-minute studying the morning of the exam, the night before the exam. It’s much more important to be relaxed, to clear your mind, and to think positive thoughts when you’re entering into that exam. So that’s kind of everything before the exam.
As far as during the exam and how you analyze or read questions, I started off by saying I think it’s much less important. There’s no one right way. Everyone has the best way to do it. The best way needs to be your way. So I think intuitively for me if I have a very long question vignette, I may read the last sentence—what’s called typically the lead-in to the sentence—just so it gives me context. If a question has to do with the management of something and I start reading this long vignette and I realize right away that this patient has acute pancreatitis, then I’m going through in my mind as I’m reading what do I know about the management of acute pancreatitis? I’m looking for clues in the question. So that’s one maybe advantage of skipping to the question lead-in on a long vignette. I think that’s really the only time that we would have to do so because one-line questions is just read the one line. Two-line questions is just read the one line.
A lot people talk about maybe reading the answer choices first then. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to do that. Personally, I love guessing the answer choice before I actually look at the answer choices. So as you’re reading the vignette, you start thinking about what the theme is, what the topic is. Then when you get to the lead-in, you know exactly what the question is being asked. Then I say in my head, okay, what’s the answer? Then I look to see if the answer is there because if that happens, your gut is almost always right. That makes answering that question very easy, especially when let’s say I end up narrowing it down to two answer choices. I always go with what my gut tells me.
Jessica: That is such great advice. It brings up another question. Often I hear people say I can narrow down to two answer choices, but then I don’t know which one to pick. Do you have any advice for these individuals?
Dr. Rosh: So there’s a few different ways you could go about this, right. If you absolutely have no idea, like there’s no other hint what the answer is, there is non-knowledge tricks that you can do. For example, longer answer choices are sometimes correct over shorter answer choices. There’s things like that. I’ve written about this stuff in blogs. Like if I took a test on rocket science, launching a rocket to the moon, I could probably figure out some of the answers just simply by how the answer choices are written. People, we have to remember that these tests are written by humans. Humans make mistakes and humans have patterns. So you could take advantage of some of these things. The other way to think about this is—and this is something that I actually did an entire lecture on this for this course—it’s what I call…If a question seems really hard—We have to remember when an exam is created, it’s created by humans. Therefore there need to be different levels of difficulty for questions. That has to be the case, right, because that’s how you differentiate. So if you have a really difficult question, you could think about it this way. How would the average student answer that question and then choose the other one, okay?
Jessica: Okay.
Dr. Rosh: Just think about that, right?
Jessica: Okay.
Dr. Rosh: If you are the average student and you have a really hard question, then it’s hard for a reason. You are likely to get it wrong. So you chose the one that you think is not the right answer if you don’t know. Like which one would you choose? Choose the one that you don’t think it is. So that’s one way to do it. That also works in the opposite, right? So if you have a question that seems like this is straightforward. This seems like a pretty easy question and the average person will get it right, but you’re actually a really good—your knowledge base is really strong, oftentimes those people outsmart themselves, right. They overthink questions. So you have to remember for an average question, that means almost everyone is going to get it right. Don’t outthink yourself. Go with what is the obvious answer. Don’t outthink yourself. So those are two kinds of strategies that you could employ on answering questions if you don’t know it right away. If you want to think about tactics like this.
Jessica: Okay, okay. Then kind of when you’ve gone through the exam and if time permits, do you feel it’s best for you to review all of your questions, only the flag questions, or only unanswered questions which you have to review? I guess in a follow-up, what are your thoughts about changing answers when you do review your exam?
Dr. Rosh: Yeah, that’s a really great question. I believe you should use all of the time allotted to you. If necessary, reviewing questions is really important because you’re going to pick up on a mistake. So I would go through every single question if possible. Most of the time, 75% of the questions you probably know really well, and you don’t need to spend much time on it. As far as changing questions, that’s a whole other situation. You have to be super careful about that. Here’s kind of my take on this. It’s almost like test yourself before you do it. So some things that I did, and I’ll give an example of this in clinical practice. Whenever I would see a patient with abdominal pain and I suspected appendicitis, I would make a note. I’d say okay, my gut is telling me that this is appendicitis. What’s my likelihood? How sure am I? What’s my certainty that this patient has appendicitis? Am I 100% or am I 50%? I’d make a note. Then after the CAT scan I would refer back to my notes. I would do this to hone in kind of my gestalt. I would say if I’m feeling like the patient has appendicitis using these kinds of instinctual types of feelings and I’m consistently right, that kind of starts building my gestalt. It’s the same thing with changing items on a test.
So you look at on previous tests, like when I change things am I getting it right or am I getting it wrong? You could kind of think about that over time. Obviously if it’s your first exam that you’ve taken, you haven’t taken one in a while, then you’re not going to be able to do that. I always say go with your gut. You don’t want to overthink things. Usually your gut will be saying which one to go with. You have to listen to it. It’s telling you it for a reason. What’s interesting is it’s your subconscious speaking to you. That subconscious was formulated. Those thoughts were formulated while you were studying and doing things and engaging in things like the testing effect. Those were neurons that were built and solidified as you were studying. It’s trying to tell you what’s right. So I think when in doubt, go with your gut. That’s the best approach at least for me.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I think I have, going through and taking tests, kind of have that same thing. Like I would go back through, review my answers. For a while changing an answer here or there worked well for me. Then it came to a point where changing answers stopped working well. So then I said well I’m going to stop changing answers unless I misread the question completely or left something out or selected the wrong answer. So I kind of get the understanding of if it’s working for you, continue to do it if you feel like you know. If it stops working and you’re getting more questions wrong then leave it.
Dr. Rosh: Yeah, I feel like that’s a great approach.
Jessica: So then we kind of talked a little bit about the certification exams and the PANCE, for those exams pretty much everything is fair game. Utilizing question banks is definitely very high yield. What have you found to be some best strategies for studying for like the certification exam or studying for a shelf exam or something like that when pretty much everything can be tested on?
Dr. Rosh: You know, I think one important takeaway when it comes to education and exams is that you start studying for your exam the first day of school or residency or training, whatever it is that you’re doing. You start your first day. If you wait two years and just start studying for your certification exam at the end of your training program, you have a greater hill to climb. A greater battle in front of you. When I started residency training, one of the first things I did was find a graduating resident—a fourth-year resident at the time—and I asked that resident, “Looking back knowing what you know now, what would you tell yourself as an intern?” I listened very carefully. The number one thing universally across everyone I asked was read from day one. I never realized how challenging that was going to be to read from day one, but it kept kind of echoing in my mind.
So it’s something that I am so grateful for that I was disciplined enough to do, reading from day one. It was hard, right? My first two years of residency training I was insecure. I came into an environment and a program where people were smarter, they had more experience. I felt very insecure. I was the one kind of reading every day. A lot of people may have not for whatever reason. It’s a challenging thing to do. Eventually my knowledge base built up. What I was seeking was to feel confident. So to feel equal with everyone else. That’s my own personal feeling. No one made me feel not feel equal as far as knowledge goes. So I think preparing for anything starts at day one.
When you have just a prodigious amount of information it means that trying to memorize everything is going to be challenging and not going to be effective. What becomes important is that you learn as much as you can and understand as much as you can because if you could understand the key principles and tenants of certain pathologies, you could extrapolate that information and that knowledge to be able to solve other questions based on that. So you could use your knowledge to eliminate answer choices because you understand what’s being asked and you could use knowledge to affirm answer choices because you understand it.
Jessica: That makes a lot of sense. Then this question actually someone wanted me to ask regarding test taking. It was what advice you have for individuals that just suffer from test anxiety?
Dr. Rosh: Yeah. This is a great question. It’s a real thing that plagues a lot of people. There are a couple ideas that I would share. One is to put yourself as close as possible into the same situation before you take your exam. So as you’re studying and preparing for an exam, try and simulate the same environment. So maybe reserve a mock exam or some type of question set where you’re sitting in front of a computer or you have a sheet of paper in front of you—however, your exam’s going to be administered—isolate yourself, go into a quiet room. If you’re going to wear earplugs, put them in. Simulate the exact testing environment and practice that way. So in the weeks leading up to your exam, try and do that. That will help you be ready for your exam day.
I think that another idea could be to do fear-setting exercises. This is something that I do not just for exams but in making decisions in my life and taking risks—or what I think are risks. Saying to myself what is the worst-case scenario in these situations? If I fail, what have I learned? What will be an advantage? What other opportunities could come from this? To do fear setting. You could just type into Google fear setting. The first five websites that will come up, I believe there’s some really good ones. It’s just an exercise that I like to do whenever I’m worried about making a decision. You could apply that for taking an exam.
Then I think the last idea is staying positive. Staying positive up until your exam and through your exam. I already mentioned this. I think it’s a very positive message. Even if you, for example, wrote down a paragraph about all the amazing things that you’ve done in your life or in the last two years let’s say. Write them down like you’re journaling. The act of doing that, the act of retrieving those experiences, those positive experiences, will build confidence in you. You could seamlessly transition from doing something like that right into your exam. Then there’s the standard kind of anti-anxiety behaviors of deep breathing, meditation. I use the Headspace app at home. It’s wonderful. I do it with my children. Before exams, I haven’t taken an exam in a long time. I mean three years or so, I haven’t taken a formal certification exam. My last one was in emergency medicine. I still got nervous.
One of the things that I do is right before I start the exam I’ll take a minute, maybe two, and do some slow deep breathing. One, I want to clear out all of my carbon dioxide in my dead space in my lungs because I want my brain to have as much oxygen as possible. I know my brain is about to go into overdrive, so I want to supply it with fuel. So that’s one benefit of it. Also it’s a calming effect. You want to be calm, right? Calm is cool in a sense. In medicine sometimes when the stress level goes up, our response needs to go down to counterbalance these situations. That’s so true when there’s a trauma, when there’s a code. You see the chaos in the room. It’s the person who’s the calmest is the one who commands the situation. It’s no different in taking an exam. You want to go in—Like Floyd Mayweather, right? He went into his fights just “I’m prepared. I did everything, and now we’ll see the outcome.” It’s the same idea there with test anxiety.
Jessica: Those are really great suggestions. Like I’m going to have to use some of those myself. So I just want to thank you again for being on the podcast. Before we end, I just wanted to ask. As someone like myself that—You told me that you experienced some rejection before being accepted into medical school, what advice would you give someone that’s listening that’s applying to PA school/med school and they’ve experienced rejections and they’re considering giving up?
Dr. Rosh: Well absolutely. I could already say that Duke never accepted me into any of their programs. So you’ve already gone much further than anything I’ve done. I took the MCAT maybe three times even, twice/three times. It was during a time where I wasn’t ready. I wasn’t ready emotionally. My maturity level wasn’t where it needed to be when I first took it and it showed. Eventually, I scored well enough that I got into medical school and I learned so much from that experience. I think one of the main takeaways is you may be qualified. You just may be one of many people who are qualified. It’s not because you’re not qualified that you didn’t get in, let’s say, to a program.
I think there needs to be some pragmatism on everyone. You need to be pragmatic and ask yourself is this what I want or is this what I think I want? Because if it’s what I want then don’t hesitate a second. You need to just get up and get back moving into what you’re trying to achieve. I think a rejection also allows you to question your motives. It’s an opportunity to pivot to maybe something else that you think you may want to do instead. However, if you are the person—and I was in this boat for sure—where you don’t initially get what you’re looking for or what you’re aiming for. Let’s say it’s an acceptance into a program. In the timeframe after the letter telling you you don’t get in, you need to think about could you improve? Because you can’t do the same exact thing over and over again, right? I think it was Einstein that called that insanity. You need to use that as a moment of growth.
Jessica: Right.
Dr. Rosh: That’s totally fine because you will become a better person with more skills, more network, greater networks, and some other opportunity will come up as well. So I think it’s very emotionally challenging to grapple with rejection no matter what it is. You go through anger, fear, guilt, sadness. All of those things will happen, and that’s a totally normal response. I think there is a time for mourning, right. You should mourn. Like I didn’t get it. But you pick yourself up and you ask yourself okay. What can I do now to add to who I am so that this school or program sees me in a little different way, that they seem that I am motivated to do this. Now, I was on the other end of this. Not only have I been a student, but I’ve been a program director. So I was assistant program director for three years and a program director of the emergency medicine residency. So every year—and even as chief resident at Bellevue at New York University—I was part of the residency selection committee there. You have to create a rank list. I have to interview hundreds of medical students every year. Any health profession school goes through the same thing.
So there are some programs and people who are on selection committees who may only look at grades and may only look at a test score, and I think that’s a little short-sighted. I think many of the people who make the best clinicians are the ones who went through failure. Its how they dealt with that failure that is always so meaningful. From the program director standpoint, if you could identify those people who struggled for whatever it is and came through that adversity, those people will be always self-motivated. They will work extremely hard, and they will not give up. Life is full of setbacks. Life is full of roadblocks. That’s never ever going to change. What we have the power to do is how we react after a setback. We have a choice. There’s always a choice. If we choose to keep going forward and to find another way around that obstacle—Ryan Holiday wrote a really great book called The Obstacle Is the Way. How do you use the setback to your advantage? This needs to be for anyone who has or currently going through a setback like that. I encourage you to read this book The Obstacle Is the Way. I employ it in so many decisions in my life. It’s a really wonderful way to manage adversity.
Jessica: That was well said. I feel like it will really resonate with a lot of people who are experiencing setbacks. I get messages all the time of I don’t know if I can do this. Things are getting difficult. I think you made a lot of good points that a lot of individuals that can overcome adversities or setbacks. A lot of times those individuals, the perseverance really shows. They’re going to go after it. Your inspirational talk regarding this as well as all of the strategies for test taking I really appreciate and know my listeners will as well.
Dr. Rosh: I am now a listener as well.
The post Test-Taking Strategies, Overcoming Failure, and Building Confidence appeared first on RoshReview.com.
“At age 50 I am half way, I imagine the best is yet to come. I have a plan of how to keep achieving. The person I was is not forgotten but the person I aspire to be is something else completely.”
Every so often, we meet someone who forever alters the course of our life.
Today’s episode is with Andrew Rees, who I met back in 2018.
Andrew was born in Northern Ireland and was adopted at a young age and spent his childhood growing up in Russia, Hungary, and Spain.
His family eventually moved back to England, where he joined the army at age 16.
After a couple of years in the English army, he completed school and began coaching kids sports and focused on personal fitness.
Andrew’s continued growth led him to move to Switzerland to earn his personal fitness, health, and nutrition degree.
Of note, these classes were taught in German, which Andrew had to learn in parallel to his classes.
Andrew caught his first break when he applied for a personal trainer position with a facility associated with the Swiss Olympic Organization.
It was here that Andrew grew his skills and learned how to get people to believe in themselves and to do things they never thought was possible.
He talks about the impact he had on an athlete training for the Paralympics and the impact she had on him.
In 2016, Andrew and his American wife moved from Switzerland to Michigan, where Andrew was looking for ways to implement the skills he learned as a personal trainer and coach.
One year later, Andrew launched his personal training business, UrbanGym.
It started with Andrew driving a trailer packed with gym equipment and parking it next to athletic fields where he would conduct weekly drop-in fitness classes.
Eventually, he converted his garage to a gym and in a short time became the busiest trainer in Detroit.
Which is how we eventually met.
Since 2018, I have spent 2–3 hrs a week working out with Andrew.
Andrew is not your ordinary personal trainer who tells you what to do and watches you struggle trying to do it!
As you’ll hear in this interview, Andrew brings much more than simply his advanced fitness knowledge to these workouts.
His experience from traveling the world, working in various European countries, and being on his own journey of personal growth, brings a unique dynamic that I’ve never seen before in a personal trainer or fitness instructor.
This is a special conversation where Andrew talks about his journey through life.
While Andrew has significantly improved my fitness over the years, our greatest interactions have been the conversations we have before and after our workout sessions.
And I assure you, this conversation does not disappoint.
I encourage you to set some time aside, turn up the volume, and listen to this wonderful conversation with the founder of UrbanGym, and my good friend, Andrew Rees.
The post Andrew Rees – The Traveling Personal Trainer on Staying Healthy, Staying Fit, and Living Life to the Fullest appeared first on RoshReview.com.
This episode is incredibly special as Danielle McGuire and I speak with attorney Angela Povilaitis, who is a nationally recognized voice for victims of sexual assault, domestic violence, and child abuse.
Currently, Angela is an attorney with the State of Michigan whose work focuses on sexual assault, domestic violence, and other crime victim rights issues.
Prior to that, she was a senior attorney in the State Attorney General’s Criminal Division, and lead prosecutor on multi-victim domestic violence, stalking, and sexual assault cases.
And for 12 years, she served as an assistant prosecuting attorney for Wayne County, working on cases of child abuse, child and adult sexual assault, child homicide, and other felony cases.
Povilaitis gained worldwide attention in 2018 as lead prosecutor in the case against former USA Gymnastics physician Larry Nassar, who was convicted in January 2018 of sexually assaulting numerous young girls.
Attorney Povilaitis was instrumental in arranging for more than 200 of Nassar’s victims to give impact statements to the court during his sentencing hearing, while the world watched live on television. This was perhaps one of the defining moments of the #MeToo movement.
In this episode of Conversations, Povilatis talks about her journey to becoming a prosecutor, what led her to focus on sexual and domestic violence cases, and what it means to be victim centered, offender focused, and trauma informed.
She also talks about three distinct cases that I’d like to provide some background about to give you context.
The first case: The People vs. Father James Rapp
Rapp was a Catholic priest accused of sexually assaulting young boys at Lumen Christian High School in Jackson, MI, in the 1980s. In 2015, Povilaitis filed 19 sexual assault charges against Rapp, who eventually pleaded no contest. The night before Rapp’s sentencing in April 2016, Povilaitis organized a dinner and meeting for about 10 victims. The next morning, several gave impact statements during the sentencing.
The second case: The People vs. Calvin Kelly
The defendant was an interstate truck driver serial rapist who preyed upon vulnerable women, including those struggling with drug addiction and poverty. Led by Povilaitis and her cold case sexual assault team, the Michigan Attorney General’s office linked Kelly to 11 reported rapes in 4 states spanning over 20 years. Povilaitis issued charges in 2014 and after many adjournments, delays, and appeals, a two-week jury trial began in September 2017 where 3 victims testified. Kelly was acquitted despite overwhelming evidence. Shortly after his acquittal, Kelly was charged with three rapes in Tennessee. At the time of this podcast, he remains in jail awaiting trial.
The third case and most widely known: The People vs. Larry Nassar
Nassar is one of the most prolific sexual abusers in US history, having abused well over 500 victims. His criminal case began with a report from one victim in August 2016 and quickly grew to hundreds of athletes from over a dozen different sports, ranging from gold-medal-winning Olympians and National Team members to club-level gymnasts.
But before the world knew his name, a case was built and led by Povilaitis and her team from the MSU Police department and Attorney General’s office.
As the lead prosecutor on his state sexual abuse charges, Povilaitis issued charges, presented evidence, questioned witnesses, and drafted a historic plea agreement where more than 200 victims gave impact statements while the world watched and learned the horrors of sexual abuse and trauma.
If this wasn’t enough exceptionalism for this episode, there’s more.
I took the backseat and welcomed Danielle McGuire to host this episode.
Danielle is an award-winning author and historian of racial and sexual violence. Her first book, At the Dark End of the Street: Black Women, Rape and Resistance–a New History of the Civil Rights Movement from Rosa Parks to the Rise of Black Power (published by Knopf) won the Frederick Jackson Turner Award and the Lillian Smith Award and is used widely in colleges around the country.
Danielle is a Distinguished Lecturer for the Organization of American Historians and has appeared on National Public Radio, BookTV (CSPAN), CNN, MSNBC.com, and dozens of local radio stations throughout the United States and around the world.
This is truly a dynamic duo.
So without further ado, here is the far-reaching conversation between Angela Povilaitis and Danielle McGuire.
Audio Transcript
Danielle: Okay. So Angie and I know each other, I think, first through youth sports. We’re both soccer moms and we share a very competitive spirit. So I think it’s only fitting that we start this conversation with a little sport talk. So I was doing a little bit of research on you, and I read that while you were in high school in Baldwin, Michigan you earned 13 varsity letters. Most people don’t even earn one. So I was like what? 13 varsity letters. That’s impressive.
Angela: Absolutely. I’m impressed with your research skills there because that was a deep dive. So Baldwin, for the folks that don’t know, is a smaller community in northern Michigan. It’s about equal distance between Traverse City and Grand Rapids, about an hour from each of those larger towns, about 30 minutes from Lake Michigan. So it is a class D school. I think they changed it in the Michigan High School Athletic Association, but I was an athletic kid. I’m about 5’9”. So I was about 5’9” at 12 and got recruited to play basketball on our basketball team to be the center. I had a nickname at the time of Totem Pole, which was a little traumatizing, but I loved it. I loved everything about basketball. I was thinking back to some of the great Pistons years here and was a huge Pistons fan and would record the games on a VHS to watch all summer and practice in my backyard. So it’s a tiny town. There were 45 people in my graduating class. So I did get to play four years of varsity on our basketball team. We did have a JV team, but it was kind of fun to be there as a freshman. Then I played four years of volleyball and then four years of track. So I think that brings us to 12. Then my senior year I got to play softball with my sister who is a freshman, so that was really special. She was a very good pitcher and I decided to kind of do two sports that season.
I was a good student. I was student body president. I was involved in a lot of different activities, but sports were incredibly important to my childhood and growing up. I think an integral part of my competitive spirit transitioned well to my later career as a prosecutor and a trial attorney. So many lessons I learned being part of a team, having a goal, working towards it, handling defeat, being resilient. All of those came from the basketball courts of Baldwin, Michigan.
Danielle: Wow. That’s incredible. I read also that you actually were inducted into the Baldwin High School Basketball Hall of Fame.
Angela: Yeah. Yeah, that was a couple of years ago. The other thing I’m proud of in a humble brag kind of way was I was All Area Dream Team for two years in a row in our local paper. The transition of that, right, is I was a big fish in a little pond. I was not good enough to play Division I or Division II. I think I had a slight interest in maybe pursuing basketball, but I mean would have had to make it on a Division team. I really wanted to go to what I thought was the best school in the state and arguably one of the best schools in the country at the University of Michigan. So basketball was going to have to stop after my senior year.
Danielle: So when you went to college, you didn’t do any intramural sports or anything like that?
Angela: Oh I did play intramural. Yeah. Just not at that level.
Danielle: What’d you do?
Angela: Oh goodness. Basketball, volleyball, and broomball which was a little bit of insight into my future as a hockey mom. That was fun too.
Danielle: Did you say broomball?
Angela: Yeah, broomball.
Danielle: I don’t know what that is.
Angela: You’re from Wisconsin. You didn’t play broomball in Wisconsin?
Danielle: I didn’t.
Angela: So it’s like hockey but on a basketball court. I don’t know if it’s a real broom. I can’t remember it’s been so long.
Danielle: It’s not like curling?
Angela: No. It’s more like…It’s broomball.
Danielle: Okay.
Angela: You have a ball and you have a team and you have a stick that—I think it might be a broom actually—where you hit the ball and try to pass it. It’s like hockey on a basketball court.
Danielle: Right. Oh, that’s great. I think that’s really wonderful. No, I didn’t play broomball in Wisconsin. The only kind of broom I used was when my mom made me sweep. I hope broomball isn’t just a women’s league.
Angela: Oh, no. It was coed too.
Danielle: I was going to say it’s pretty gendered otherwise.
Angela: We could bring it back Danielle.
Danielle: Oh, I think now’s the time.
Angela: Right, right.
Danielle: What else do we have to do? Another article I read about you said that—It was actually something that your mom said. Your mom was a librarian, right? She said in a more recent interview that by fourth grade you knew what you wanted to do, what college you were going to, and that you wanted to be a lawyer. Is that something that you think is true? By fourth grade you knew that?
Angela: I don’t remember it being exactly that age, but definitely about high school I had an interest in the law. I really can’t kind of think back and find where that started, but I know up until the late elementary school years I really wanted to be an astronaut. I remember Space Camp was my favorite movie. I just recently introduced that to my boys, and it did not have the same effect, unfortunately. I think I was about 11. I remember being in I think fifth grade when the Challenger explosion happened. That was a pretty dynamic event in my life because I was really interested in NASA and the space program and the space shuttle. Unfortunately, I was not a great student related to science and math. So it became a point where that really wasn’t an option that I saw, at least, and kind of shut that down my own self.
But yeah. I watched L.A. Law. A Time to Kill was a movie that I watched later on. To Kill a Mockingbird was my favorite book ever. Atticus Finch and his fight for the underdog and justice. So yeah. There weren’t many lawyers in Baldwin. My mom’s cousin is the trial court judge. He was always a man that I respected, and others respected and carried himself with a lot of dignity and seemed to be compassionate. Yeah. It seemed like something attainable and a career that could be helpful and meaningful. So I had a vision going into college that I wanted to be pre-law and that law school is a goal, but I had no kind of idea of exactly what that looked like at a high school or 18.
Danielle: Right. So when you said you watched L.A. Law, were there other shows on TV or other movies that made you want to be a prosecutor or a defense attorney? What was it about those movies that spoke to you?
Angela: So I like to argue. I mean if you were interviewing my parents, I’m sure they would tell you that I really wanted to have the last word. I always wanted to be right. So my mouth got me in trouble a little bit growing up more than anything did. Becoming a prosecutor really wasn’t something that I even considered until law school actually. I can remember being home for the summer, I think, between my senior year of college and starting law school because I went right away. I was watching A Time to Kill, the Matthew McConaughey movie about a brutal sexual assault in the south and the subsequent trial. There’s this scene where he’s giving the closing argument and it’s incredibly impassioned and moving. My mom asked me, she said, “Is this the kind of lawyer you want to be?” I said oh god no. There’s no way I’d want to get up in front of people and argue and have all of the attention on me. I mean at that point I was, I think, interested in environmental law or regulatory law or research and writing.
So when I started law school, that wasn’t even on my radar. It wasn’t until I had an amazing criminal law professor—Peter Henning at Wayne State Law—that I had a few internships that I did especially at the Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office that really opened my eyes to what being a prosecutor meant, what it entailed. How you could be the voice for victims, how you could meet people at arguably one of the lowest points in their lives and help them feel supported and believed and really be the voice for so many in our society. When you go in the courtroom as a prosecutor, I would say, “Angela Povilaitis on behalf of the people of the state of Michigan.” That’s really powerful and something I took seriously, to be that voice for everybody but especially for the victim.
Danielle: That’s really incredible. You mentioned Peter Henning. What was it about him and his class that really changed things for you? I mean I’ve had mentors and professors in my life who completely changed the course of my life, my path. What was it about him or his classes that did that for you?
Angela: Well, so he was just incredibly engaging. He was a former federal prosecutor. So I think having that real world experience to not just cite case law or research. To have kind of been in the trenches himself really was impactful when we were talking about case law related to criminal procedure and practice. It just touches so many places within lives. I truly believe—After watching A Time to Kill I thought I’d be more interested in possibly being a defense attorney, right. That you can do a lot of good social justice wise. From that perspective—and I absolutely agree that you can—but I think our system needs really good, honest, fair prosecutors. We’re the entry point into the system and you make that decision. I always took that decision incredibly seriously that I decide to charge a case. If I charge a case, the impact that’s going to have on the victim, on the offender. If I decide to deny a case because I don’t think we can prove it beyond our reasonable doubt then the impact that will have on the offender, the victim, the community.
So I think what—I speak now to law students occasionally. One of the things I do think at this particular moment, there’s a lot of interest in social justice understandably so. I encourage them don’t shut the door on prosecution because you think it’s all law and order and people who are out only to win or improve their own political profile. You can have a lot of impact on everyone involved if you’re fair and honest and follow the law. Nobody wants to send somebody to prison unless they’ve really hurt someone and are not rehabilitatable. There are a lot of bigger issues related to the goals of sentencing beyond just punishment. There’s accountability and the victims need to know that the system works for them. That’s one of the issues that I’m most concerned about now.
Danielle: I want to actually come back to that in a little bit, but first I want to ask you about your very first case and what that was like and if you remember it.
Angela: So I can tell you a couple of stories. So when I was in law school, I tried to expose myself to a lot of different areas. Because I really wanted to use those three years and not only learn in the classroom, but kind of figure out what was going to be the best fit for me as a career. So I spent a summer working for the free legal aid clinic at Wayne State University Law School where we provided legal aid in family court for domestic violence victims and divorce cases, which was really impactful. It was all run by students with a couple of attorney supervisors. I worked for the Wayne County Corporation Counsel when former Governor Granholm was the corporation counsel. So that was the late 90s. I was interested in kind of government legal work, and that was interesting. It was all civil based. So a lot of lawsuits against the county or mental health hearings, those kinds of things. I worked at a law firm that represented a lot of labor law issues, democratic political issues, Sachs Waldman O’Hara. I think it’s gone through some other name iteration by now. That was interesting. I worked for a personal injury lawyer, and he did not treat his staff well. Not that he needed to, but I remember getting briefs back with cartoon swear words and just not a great mentor. Pretty abrupt and didn’t really want to mentor people or expose them to arguments or some of the other more exciting places. So that was somewhat of a negative experience, but the firm and other people at the firm were great to work with. I had an internship. It’s so interesting how the word works out when you look back on it.
Danielle: Yeah. I didn’t know any of this.
Angela: Yeah. I had a law clerk for credit, an internship at the federal courthouse. So many of the attorneys in the civil division I worked in said, “You need to go work for a judge and kind of see the inside, how the courthouse works from that perspective.” So I applied. I had an internship for credit. It turned out—I was only there for a couple of weeks because there was a conflict. So the firm I was working at for pay had a number of cases and this judge had a great reputation and was very above board. I think most judges are. He said, “You’re going to have to pick. You’re going to have to pick between this position for credit or this position for pay.” I really needed to have a job that paid. So here I was a couple of weeks into my third year of law school. I had to find another internship that I could easily transition from the court to something else.
A law school friend said, “Hey, have you ever considered going to the prosecutor’s office?” I said I really hadn’t at that point. She said, “Well, you should come take a look at it. They’re hiring.” Specifically hiring in the child and family abuse bureau, we called it CFAB. It was run by one of my most important mentors in my life of Nancy Deal, who really was the first person I think arguably on the frontlines of Michigan discussing how important it was to have specially trained prosecutors prosecuting child abuse, sexual assault, child sexual assault, domestic violence. She started this unit in Wayne County in I think the 70s or 80s. So I went in for the interview. I got the internship. As they say, the rest is history. I loved it. I loved going into the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice every day. I’d read the newspaper. I’m a big news junkie. I would read the paper and a case that was on the front page would be down the hall. I could go and watch that trial.
My first day I remember getting assigned to a prosecutor named Jerry Dorsey who is still a prosecutor in Wayne County and is also a mentor of mine. He had me kind of tag along. It was a child murder case where a young child had been murdered and sexually assaulted. So I mean I’ve never experienced anything like that. It was so impactful to kind of see how he interacted with the surviving family members, how he presented himself to the court, how he handled this jury trial. I was hooked. These were horrific crimes, but to see that you could have a positive impact on these people’s lives and that you could support them. That you could be the one to try to obtain justice really was so impactful. So I was there for a couple of years and was lucky enough to get hired after I passed the bar.
Danielle: Wow. Angie, I had no idea that you did all of those things before you became the kind of prosecutor that I know you as. That’s an incredible story of kismet, coincidence.
Angela: Like serendipitous, right? I mean it’s like all of those things kind of—I don’t know if it would have been on my radar. I don’t know if I would have been able to—It was really what I was hoping for. Exposing myself to legal aid and to civil litigation and the court system was to try to find that right fit. It felt very much the right fit, even at 25 and right out of law school.
Danielle: Wow. That’s incredible. So you went on to work then at the Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office. For listeners who might not know Wayne County, we’re talking mainly about Detroit. That’s the county that Detroit is in. So once you started at Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office, what was your focus there? Did you stay in child abuse and those issues or did you move on to other things?
Angela: Yeah. So I graduated from law school in 2000, which was an election year. The long standing prosecutor there, John O’Hair, I think he’d been there over two or three decades had announced his retirement. So there was going to be a new prosecutor. The bar exam happens in July, but you don’t get your results until November. No one really hires lawyers unless you’re at one of the fancier firms until you get those results. So for those four or five months or so, I was lucky enough because I had kind of stuck around and was doing a good job as an intern. I landed this contract position where I was prosecuting personal protection order violations. So we had an intern doing that. It intersected, obviously, with domestic violence. There would often be misdemeanor domestic violence cases that would accompany these protection orders. So interact with victims and you’d have to present testimony. You had a lower burden of proof, but you still had a docket to run and prepare for them. So I got really lucky. I mean it prepared nothing, but it got my foot in the door.
So when I passed the bar in November, it would have been probably, I think, within the same week as the election. Mike Duggan—the current Detroit mayor—was elected prosecutor and there were a number of openings. Like usually there’s maybe four or five a year, and I think there were upwards of 20 to 30 openings that year because people were retiring and lots of changes. So I just happened to be—I had a number of kind of mentors and folks advocating for my hire who knew my work both at the corporation counsel and at the prosecutor’s office. So I got hired there. So unfortunately I didn’t get to stay in the protection [inaudible]. So I actually was assigned to our forfeiture unit, which handled narcotic forfeitures and drug forfeitures. Abandoned homes became a big issue where they were doing nuisance abatement proceedings to try to go after owners who were not keeping up with their property. Then I found a little niche. So within our unit we did all of the public nuisance cases. So at the time in the early 2000s we had a number of smutty theaters and massage parlors.
Danielle: In Detroit?
Angela: Well, not just in Detroit. Wayne County in general. So those were cases, for some reason, kind of got dumped on my lap. I ran with those. It was a lot of interactions with undercover officers who had to go in and be solicited or who had to uncover evidence of bad stuff happening in theaters. Then we would file the civil actions to try to padlock them or take them over. So I did that for about three years, but I really wanted to be in court. So every time I got to go to court in forfeiture—It was rare, but it was exciting. So at some point Mike Duggan left to go to the Detroit Medical Center and there was an opening. Kim Worthy was appointed to that position. I know she was planning to run anyway. When Prosecutor Worthy came in I got kind of exiled for the forfeiture unit or let out actually. I really wanted to be a regular prosecutor. So she sent me I think it was in the domestic violence unit was where I got to go the first time. So I was doing domestic violence cases. So I can still remember my first domestic violence trial.
Danielle: So how did you prepare for that?
Angela: Well, I mean exhaustively. I mean it was probably a two year felony case, but it was a very typical case where for any number of reasons by the time we get up to trial, the victim was not interested or able to participate. She wanted us to drop the case. It was her husband. There was some prior histories there that acquitted the charge. So I would really struggle with balancing real life and work. Even for these trials where I would stay up the night before and the weeks before and make sure every area was covered and prepared and general outlines for the witnesses. How I would prepare the voir dire, the jury selection, the closing argument, all of that stuff right. I read every manual I could find on prosecuting these cases and ultimately it was a conviction. Those are bittersweet too sometimes because you put all this work into, and it never felt like a personal win. It felt like the right decision, but we know that they left the courtroom together and he’s now on probation and hopefully getting the services he needs to control his anger and control his impulses and that she’s safe.
Danielle: Were there any cases at the Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office that did feel like a personal win for you?
Angela: Yeah. So it was interesting. So I got to do the domestic violence cases for a while and then I was assigned to a couple of different felony court rooms. And you handle all of the cases that come in that aren’t specially assigned. I knew I wanted to get back to the family abuse cases, the sexual assaults, the domestic violence. Those cases. So I had my first sexual assault case and I can remember that. It was a teenager—I think she was about 14—who had been sexually assaulted by her mom’s boyfriend and disclosed and mom didn’t believe her and was supporting the offender. It was a conviction. We were able to put it together and she was amazingly resilient, even lacking kind of the familial support. I think just knowing that we believed her, and she supported her and were with her. I mean I really wanted to do those cases. So my boss at the time—Actually the woman in charge of that unit is another mentor of mine, Laura Weingarten. She had kind of got me into the trial and was kind of recruiting me there, and I was happy to go.
A lot of prosecutors, especially in big city offices, I think they envision that the most glamorous or the most prestigious case is homicide cases. Right? Those are the ones that we always see on TV or make the headlines. It wasn’t that I wasn’t interested in those. I just really felt like the family violence cases or the sexual assault cases, the child abuse cases, were equally if not more important in my view than a homicide case. That’s not diminishing what happens to homicide victims or shooting cases, but I grew up in a small town. I grew up in modest means, but I had a safe home. I had parents who supported me, and I had a loving environment. I think kids need that kind of environment in order to thrive and do well at school and sports and everything else. I think they can do well even if they don’t have that environment, but it’s an extra hurdle.
So to be able to be the one to work on those cases and to try to do them as well as I could and to support those victims. The most amazing thing to me was that you could read a case file and it would bring you to tears, just the horror of what someone had experienced. Then you meet them, especially a child or a teenager, in person. Knowing that they had other people in their lives who were supporting them, or they had access to good counselling, how resilient they could be. It wasn’t easy, but there was always this spark of hope and resiliency. I think some of the fiercest courage I’ve ever seen have been those kids. Sometimes elementary age, sometimes teenagers who are standing outside the courtroom door about to walk in and share the most embarrassing or heart wrenching story with 12 or 14 strangers on a jury while their perpetrator is feet away and to be able to kind of walk through that with them—I’m going to start crying in this podcast.
Danielle: Me too.
Angela: I always cry, but that really was incredibly motivating. I felt a lot of pressure too, to be honest. I mean we don’t want to have an off day. You don’t want to pick a bad jury. You don’t want to do all that you can because there’s so much riding on the line. You asked me a question about a case. I got sidetracked.
Danielle: Well, before I do that I mean I’m glad you told me this. I wanna know how do you steel yourself for those moments? How do you be the strength that those kids need in that moment? How do you do that as a human being and someone who knows the history and knows the horrible story and you’re the one that has to stand up there and be strong?
Angela: Yeah. So I mean I don’t know that I have one answer. So when you’re taught to interact with children in the criminal justice system whether you’re the police or the prosecutor, a forensic interview, there’s a protocol. There’s a child forensic interviewing protocol that I think every state has implemented and we definitely have it here in Michigan. It’s a result of many of those cases you’d hear about in the 1980s where there were false allegations in daycare centers. Kids are somewhat impressionable. So you want to make sure you’re not leading them. That’s integral in the protocol. You want to make sure they’re competent. You want to make sure you’re hypothesis testing. That you’re not just taking the version and fitting it into a crime, right? One of the things that we learn during that protocol and that training is building a rapport with your victims. I would apply that protocol to my adult cases or my untested rape cases or pretty much any case. Because you bring a victim in with a police officer before you’re going to charge the case. A lot of folks would just dive right in with the details. I know even if I’m seeing a doctor or a counselor, you want there to be some conversation like we’re having. You want there to be some–
Danielle: You want there to be some human interaction.
Angela: Yeah. So I would take that extra time and try to build a rapport. I’ll tell you, I loved it. Especially the teenagers. I’d be like tell me what your favorite music is, what’s your favorite movie. I would learn so much about kind of pop culture from that perspective or what was on their mind or who their friends were or who they wanted to be when they grew up. So I think it really started well before we even went to court in trying to build that rapport and that trust with the victim, with their family. That they knew that you were going to be somebody reliable and consistent in their life. So pulling back just a little bit, we have the pleasure of kind of being able to vertically prosecute cases, which is important. So from the minute the police bring a case, ideally through sentencing it would just be one prosecutor. Most cases there’s different court proceedings and different prosecutors. So the victims have to meet so many different people. So you build that resiliency, you build that rapport with them, and you build the trust. At least during that time—I mean I’ve cried in court before. I think it’s well documented sometimes.
One of my favorite movies is For the Love of the Game with Kevin Costner. He’s playing at Yankee Stadium and he’s got all this stuff going on. He’s got these folks heckling him and he’s trying to pitch a perfect game. He’s got this saying. It’s like clear the mechanism. He clears the mechanism; he clears all of the distraction out. That became kind of my go to, definitely during the Nassar case which I think we’re going to talk about. Probably throughout my career after I watched that movie, like I’ve got this job to do. I’ve got this victim to help. I’ve got this jury to kind of make sure they understand it and you just kind of clear the mechanism. Then sometimes you break down afterwards.
Danielle: So that’s a perfect segue in some ways to the case that I think the world kind of came to know you through. That brought national and even international attention to your work and your awesomeness. That is, of course, the Larry Nassar case which began long before the world saw you on national TV giving your closing statement. Just in terms of like clearing the mechanism. So that began in 2016, right?
Angela: Yes.
Danielle: Okay. We’ll branch out from here, but it began with an IndyStar article, an investigative report in a newspaper and one victim. One survivor speaking out publicly. It ballooned into this enormous case with hundreds of victims and survivors speaking out. It apexed in many ways at the height of the Me Too movement. In lots of ways, all of your work leading up to this case prepared you for and enabled you to shepherd these survivors through what was undoubtedly one of the biggest, most important sexual assault cases in American history. So I guess—I’m not really sure where to start with this, but why don’t we sort of start at the end and then we can see where it goes. I’m thinking about in 2018 after Larry Nassar has pled guilty to like 10 cases that you brought from multiple counties. You’ve got hundreds of people standing before a judge ready and willing to give impact statements. Can you just tell us about A, how that happened, and B, how you managed all of that?
Angela: I think it’s important to note that there were multiple courts so there were multiple judges that folks were coming before. The interesting thing is from that case I was—as the first chair prosecutor on it—the face of it but it was a team effort. Robyn Liddell was my second chair with me from the attorney general’s office, an amazing prosecutor. Chris Allen, who was a pellet wiz kid and Becca Snyder and Angela Olsen and our victim advocates. Then, of course, our partners at the Michigan State University Police Department and Detective Munford. So it was absolutely a team effort.
Danielle: It was an amazing feat.
Angela: So it was absolutely a team effort. You’re right. As I look back on it, I’m still kind of trying to understand it all because we were in a bubble and didn’t fully appreciate what was happening. We knew it was getting attention and big and growing, but I still don’t think I have a full grasp of it personally. Because those are long hard days and weeks where you’re working 18/20 hours a week. We were trying to coordinate—We wanted to make sure anybody who came forward had that opportunity to speak. It was something that I felt really strongly about. When we even started discussing a plea agreement or a plea to the case that that was a non-negotiable part. That the defendant had to agree in our plea agreement. I think that gets overlooked that the reason the victims all were able to speak is because of the plea agreement that I drafted and that our office agreed to. Because without that plea agreement it would not have looked like that. It would not have happened like that.
This wasn’t the first case that I did that on. About a couple of years before Nassar I prosecuted a case involving a catholic priest who had abused dozens of young boys in Jackson County. The case came to us. He was about to get out of prison in Oklahoma, and we had, again, kind of serendipitously two victims 30 years after the fact walk into the police department unbeknownst to each other to file reports within a two week period. So that investigation—Many of the practices that I had been trained on really when I came to the attorney general’s office to start this cold and complex sexual assault project.
Another mentor of mine, as you know, is Debi Cain and she’s my current boss, but she and her staff really had this vision of a statewide project where you could take a prosecutor and a police officer and really mold them and train them into the best trained entity that maybe could respond to these cases with more time and resources than local prosecutors. We did. We learned about what it meant to be victim centered, to really focus on victims’ needs first and foremost as opposed to what you needed as a prosecutor or to be offender focused. So much of our sexual assault cultural myths revolve around victim blaming as opposed to how did an offender find a vulnerable victim or how did they manipulate a vulnerability to get away with it. Then the trauma piece. To be a little bit more informed about what trauma looks like for victims, how it’s different, and the impact going forward.
So in that priest case, we started out with those two victims. We started getting records and material and the public kind of became aware of it. More victims came forward. These are men now our husband’s ages or older—40s and 50s—who have gone on some to have very successful careers, others who have really struggled with what happened to them as teenagers and as preteenagers. So I had a lot of interaction with those men and their families and some of their wives. We knew how important it was one that they not only have an opportunity to participate in the criminal justice system, not only to have their offender—They wanted to make sure they weren’t going to do it to someone else. That they were going to be there incarcerated and held responsible. Also that they had an opportunity somewhere to talk about the impact the crime had on them.
So that victim impact statement in the priest case was one of the most powerful days of my career ever but absolutely at that point. We brought in men from all over the country from Alaska and Texas and Utah. Men who for 30 or 40 years—One of the victims from Utah had filed a lawsuit against the diocese and it went all the way to the Utah Supreme Court, and his case was dismissed. He never had an opportunity to confront his monster. So that afternoon in that courtroom, I think we had 10 come in, again, because it was part of the plea agreement. So we were able to work out essentially a contract between the prosecutor and the defense attorney where we agreed to this range of years and you agree to let all the victims in the court [inaudible] and agrees to go along with it. It was so powerful. I mean it was not only an opportunity for them to kind of talk about what those 30 years have looked like. Sometimes it was a one time incident. What I really realized is that it doesn’t diminish it. Sometimes a one time horrific incident can be as impactful as serial abuse that happens for a decade. So it was so important.
So that really became kind of the framework that I used going into Nassar. We had the training; we had the team. We knew that we—I wanted to bring 500 cases, right. If there was a victim that came forward and we believed them and they wanted to go forward, let’s bring it on for the next 10 years or so. At some point the way our sentencing works, it doesn’t really make a lot of sense to prolong the inevitable, especially when you have an offender who’s willing to come to court and admit what he did. So we tried to find a way that those victims would have the ability if they wanted. Not everyone was in a spot where that was going to be good for them and it becomes part of what victim centered is. So that sentence agreement was a big deal. I think when we entered the sentence agreement, we knew of about 125 victims. I think when we started the sentencing hearing, we thought we might have 88 of those 125 come forward. Then as it kind of grew, by the end we had I think over 200 victims give impact statements in one way or the other. Obviously, we’re two ways out and there’s well over 500 victims who have reported or filed lawsuits. It was remarkable to kind of see the transformation from, I think, victim to survivor to kind of advocate that’s happened with that victim pool.
One of the things is stress about that case is I’m so grateful for everything that’s come from it. All the good that’s come with awareness, with the victim’s advocacy towards legislative and societal change, but you know as my friend and someone who we’ve talked about this often, most of my cases didn’t have that kind of interest or attention. Many of my cases in Detroit and around the state involved victims who will never maybe have a victim impact statement for some reason or another or won’t have interest or national awards or books or movies. I think it’s just equally as important to make sure those voices and those stories are understood, and a lot of times they are coming from various underrepresented or marginalized populations. So that’s been my other goal.
Danielle: Absolutely. The work that you’ve done around the state on behalf of those victims in particular has been really crucial and important. You’re absolutely right. They don’t get the attention they need. It’s a huge and gaping hole in both the Me Too movement and in our culture where we value one person’s story over the other. Yet, their stories are very similar and sometimes as heartbreaking no matter what. I know just because we’ve talked a little bit about it, but can you tell us a little bit about what it was like in those days leading up to the impact statements? Like how did you—Expecting 88 people to talk and ending up with more than 200 in a matter of days probably was chaotic and crazy and far away from the television screen and everything. What was that like? How did you organize that? How did you keep the survivors together emotionally? How did you keep it together emotionally? How did you make that work? Because it looked seamless on TV.
Angela: Oh I’m glad. Again, it comes back to that team. So it wasn’t just me. It was our constant kind of communication with our victim advocates and co-counsels. Honestly, the civil attorneys too that were involved were a huge assistance in trying to coordinate this. As I look back on that time, the thing that I remember—again because we started out talking about youth sports—we had a hockey tournament the weekend before. So it was Martin Luther King Day weekend. We were in Lansing of all places and I just couldn’t escape the case. So I was in court all day on Friday and then I had to meet my family at the ice rink. I didn’t really pay attention to where our first game was. I walk in. I put it in my GPS or whatever and I drive over in the snow. I’m like you have got to be kidding me. I mean I pull up to this place and it’s called the Summit. It’s where our ice rink is, but it happens to be a multisport facility where right next to the ice rink is John Geddert’s Twistars Gymnastics Facility, which for those who don’t know many of the Nassar victims had trained there and were part of that. Geddert was and is, I think, still part of a larger investigation. So I walk in and I’m like oh—I’ve never seen it. I’d never been there before. I’d seen pictures. I’d talk to so many victims about it. It was a Friday night and there were little girls practicing gymnastics. I sat there and I tried not to cry because I couldn’t believe that it was still open. That kids were still there knowing that that was one of the places that Nassar had abused victims. Then I think one of our next games was at Munn Ice Arena in East Lansing. So I was decked out in Michigan State gear. Those games were early, like 6:00/7:00 in the morning. Then the next one was at a suburban ice rink within half a block of Nassar’s medical center. So I could not escape the case that weekend.
What I remember though is between these tournament games is we go back to our hotel and I would log on to work because we were in constant contact. So we had a master sheet, like an Excel sheet—Actually, not Excel because I don’t know how to use Excel. It was like a Word document, super old school. The victims name, whether they wanted to be publicly identified or not. I was getting emails all weekend. We were trying to coordinate travel too and often paid for airline and hotels from all over the country. We’re trying to figure out Skype. We had a victim in South Korea and one in Boston and I think one in Europe. We were getting videos. One thing I learned from the Rapp case is these men were coming in to speak. The defendant, the priest Father Rapp, looked very different than what he looked like when he was abusing them. So I found some pictures. I’d gotten a yearbook and I found the pictures of what he—You know because he was a wrestling coach. He was very strong. By the time we convicted him 30 years later, he was pretty weak and feeble. During that sentencing hearing what we learned is the importance of photographs and to kind of center everyone around what the abuse looked like. So I had asked those men for pictures of themselves at the time that they were abused to show what a 14 year old looked like or those kinds of things and they gave me that.
So we used that idea in Nassar too. So when I was corresponding with victims I would ask them, “Hey can you send me a picture of yourself at the time of the abuse?” A lot of the pictures we got were in their gymnastic leotard or—We had, I think, 14 different sports represented. So soccer players and swimmers and rowers. So we were trying to coordinate that. We had a PowerPoint going on where we would keep it in order. We would have a master list. I mean there was so much fluidity and we had to try to pivot quickly. Most importantly because there was so much media there, we wanted to make sure we had a whole kind of what we thought was like a failsafe process to confirm whether someone wanted to be publicly identified. The last thing we wanted was for someone to inadvertently be live streamed or tweeted out who wasn’t. I think we made one mistake. We were able to fix it and have good relationships with some of our media folks who were pretty quick to delete tweets and stuff. In general, we confirmed that. I tried to introduce everyone. I tried to keep it smooth and moving. We were trying to estimate how many we could get to each day knowing that the number was growing, that the interest was growing.
With all of this, it’s important to remember Rachael Denhollander, the first victim to come forward, we wanted her to go last. We wanted her to have the final word because she really started this and had sacrificed so much. So it’s pretty remarkable to me. We initially thought we’d be there for three days and then we were there for six or seven in Ingham and then another three or four in Eaton. She just kind of kept coming back to court every day. Then the logistics. I mean we didn’t have enough seats in the courtroom. We had an overflow room. We had moms who were nursing that needed quiet space. We had therapy dogs on staff to be able to kind of hopefully be available to people. We had counselors on staff. We tried to think of all of the different variables. I have to say, many of these ideas came from our victim advocates who just were really thinking outside the box. Like how can we support these victims during what’s going to be a really challenging time and make it as seamless as possible, and we pulled it off.
Danielle: Yeah, you really did. How did they support each other when they were all together? Because I imagine that some of them didn’t know each other. They were decades apart in terms of when the crime happened. Did you see them come together as a group of survivors?
Angela: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Again, we tried to separate them before because we didn’t want there to be an opening for a defense attack that they were somehow colluding or getting their stories straight. Again, I go back to the Rapp case. So one of the things that we did in that case that I also did in Nassar was the night before the hearing we brought everyone together. We had this informal kind of meeting. In Jackson, it’s a small bigger town I’ve realized. Everybody knows everybody. Everyone knew who Rapp was. So even just the logistics of finding a place and then making sure people knew. So it became the Povilaitis meeting, right? So nobody knew what Povilaitis was.
Danielle: Or how to pronounce it.
Angela: Or how to pronounce it. We did that with Nassar too. We found a room the night before. From the Rapp meeting, the thing that was so remarkable is two men who were cousins who didn’t know the other was a victim. So they walk into this room. It’s the detective and I. We have some appetizers and sodas ready to go and bam. They kind of are hit by, “You were a victim too?” It was really emotionally intense. We wanted to have them ask us any question we could answer. We wanted to prepare them for the next day as much as we could and kind of try to alleviate their fears. One of the things I’ve realized in 20 years of trial work is everybody watches Law and Order or some kind of show like that.
Danielle: Right.
Angela: That’s what they think the court is going to be like, right, and it’s so different. Often it’s somewhat boring. That was so great though because the next day we get to court with these men, and they’ve all met each other and they’re not total strangers to each other like it would have been had they just come to court. Just the emotional support that they provided. They all exchanged emails and connected on Facebook. I know for some time they were regularly keeping in contact as needed. So for Nassar, we felt it was really important too to have that kind of outside of a courtroom setting meeting. So we reserved a room, I think, at the community center in East Lansing. Again, it became the Povilaitis room. We kind of didn’t want folks to know. The chief of police bought pizza and we had cupcakes. The advocates had made these worry stones to hand out to everyone that had an inspirational word. We were able to kind of give them a preview, to answer questions. For those two or three hours, there were a lot of tears. There were a lot of connections made, and then you saw those connections continue. Because most of the victims—Many of them knew other athletes from their gyms or from their organizations that were a part of the case, but there were a number who were there alone you know. Then we had two families that had lost their children. One who had died in an accident, another who had died by suicide. We wanted to make sure that those families had a place at the table, were supported. I still have kept in contact with one of them. It’s been really wonderful to know that she was in contact with some of the other victims too.
Danielle: So I have two questions. One is when you gave your closing statement—Is that what it’s called? Was that your closing statement?
Angela: So it’s kind of technically an elocution because there wasn’t a jury, but you get a chance to say something, yeah.
Danielle: Okay. So I went back and read the whole thing, and you know I’m a writer. I’m struck by what an amazing piece of writing it is. I’m wondering how you sat down to write that and what you had to do to sort of clear the mechanism in order to put that together. What was your process like?
Angela: So it was similar to what I would do in a trial. What I did in trial work was I’d always have a second notebook, a legal pad where during witness testimony or closing arguments or when the other side was talking, I’d have ideas that would pop in my head. I’d literally just go to the back and start at the back instead of the front and I’d just write those ideas down. So in the course of those five or six days, I had a ton of ideas. It was like a gobbledygook kind of idea, but even though we were in this bubble I knew that I had an opportunity to potentially kind of talk about some of the big recurring things and the issues that we were seeing. Whether it was from the institutional responses or some of the mean comments we were hearing on social media about the victims, some of the continued victim blaming or questioning. So I knew that I had a really unique opportunity that most prosecutors never get to kind of confront those ideas. I kept thinking about how do we get here? I still kind of am awestruck by that.
We had an opportunity to go to Los Angeles for the ESPY awards when they gave the victims the Arthur Ash award and brought, I think it was over 140/150 of them on stage. I still am struck sometimes by that number. It’s kind of how I feel about what’s going on in the world right now with COVID because you see these gigantic numbers, but behind every number is a person and a personal experience and a family member and a coach and a gym. I remember sitting in the audience in Los Angeles during that rehearsal and just kind of breaking down because the breadth of destruction that one person can cause manifest itself in front of me. It’s, again, one of those things like I don’t think I’ll ever understand many of the predators that I’ve encountered. I don’t even begin to understand Larry Nassar, and I’ve kind of come to peace with that. Here’s someone who went to medical school and was trained to help and had an amazing life and opportunity and prestige, but yet choose to harm and hurt so many. The visceral emotion that was running through those courtrooms, I mean I can still feel it. So I wanted to try to capture that.
So I stayed at a hotel in the area. It became kind of my refuge. I remember I kind of started putting it together. I usually would be in my room. I remember my dear friends—you and Megan—sending me flowers, which were wonderful. For whatever reason, the night before the hearing I wanted to sit in the main lobby, the little gathering place. I didn’t want to talk to anybody. I think I tried a Hot Pocket for the first time, which was really disgusting. I just wanted to kind of see what was going on in the world, but also kind of read through it in my mind and try to organize it. So I just started typing the thoughts I had written down and try to have some kind of cohesive themes running through it. I’ll be completely honest. Chris Allen, again, from the attorney general’s office has always been my go to editor. He helped me edit it and get rid of some of the redundancies that I like to. I think it was sort of the Eaton County one I had some really strong words that probably didn’t need to be expressed because we were kind of dealing with some folks who were going to the media with some incredible comments. I think I might have suggested someone involved was a Holocaust denier. Maybe that wasn’t the best analogy.
So Chris helped me edit it into something that I think I’m really proud of. I listened to it a couple of times or read it and I go back to it when I’m now teaching people. Because I think those larger issues are still—even with the transformative effect that the Me Too movement and Tarana Burke and the Weinstein case and so many other cases have had, I think we’re still grappling with those larger victim blaming rape culture myths for sure.
Danielle: Right. Do you think that the Me Too movement has turned a corner? Has made an impact? Has changed our systems, our society? Or do you think there’s just so much more work to do because we’re dealing with hundreds and hundreds of years of patriarchy and white supremacy?
Angela: Yeah. I mean I think it has helped. We don’t have a magic wand where suddenly all of the issues we’ve been grappling with related to victim responses and institutional responses to reporting and support. I think we don’t have to look any further than the Weinstein case where you saw how hard it was for those victims to come forward and be eviscerated in the courtroom, sometimes in the media about their motivations. I mean this is one of those things I’d often try to voir dire on in jury question. No one questions the motivations of somebody who’s saying their car was stolen or their house was broken into, but there was this knee jerk reaction of what can we even believe that this crime occurred? That’s unsettling. We have to kind of break it down into it’s so hard for victims to come forward and to participate in the system, particularly if they’re not being treated well by the people who should—the prosecutors, the police, the court system. I mean I question whether I would ever come forward if I had ever been in that position because I know there’s so many non—We just can’t guarantee what’s going to happen and how your life’s going to be upended. All of the survivors I worked with on that case and many others who have risked so much.
Danielle: Right.
Angela: I’d be remiss. We’ve spent a lot of time talking about Nassar, but you know how important the other big case that I was on.
Danielle: Shawana Hall.
Angela: Yeah. Before Nassar, the Calvin Kelly case which involved a serial rapist truck driver who we had linked to 11 rapes spanning four states. I mean that was my big case before that I was working on for four years and had gone through many adjournments and many appeals. The women in that case—and especially Shawana Hall who was our main charge victim, they were treated pretty horrifically by many of the responding police departments. Not only did they report their rape, but it was horrific brutal assaults and kidnappings with weapons and lots of harm. They truly believed they were going to be killed. They would get to safety, and they do what we ask them to do. They report it to the police. They got to a hospital or a sexual assault program and get a rape kit done. Almost every single one of those police reports as we look back over 20/25 years, you know many of them there was some doubt when they had that contact with police or prosecutors even. I mean the police [inaudible] prosecutors to take what they thought was a challenging case. It was a challenging case, but it wasn’t unwinnable.
When you break it down, what does someone have to gain by lying? I mean that’s one of the analyses I would use when I was reviewing the case. Does somebody have a motive to lie? Is there someone in the child’s life who maybe has a reason? You have to be prepared for what the defense is going to bring. When you really break it down—Oh in Nassar they wanted money, or they wanted fame. I mean that’s just absurd because there’s no guarantee of that. When you talk about women from marginalized communities and minority populations and inner city neighborhoods, I mean they’re not going to have people to sue anybody. The idea that they’re somehow gaining something. The defense was that they were all prostitutes, which was not true, and that they didn’t get paid. So then they’re going to use the system for 10/15/20 years to try to settle a debt.
Danielle: It’s preposterous.
Angela: It’s preposterous.
Danielle: And gross.
Angela: The defense attorneys have to do their job. I want them to do it well. I have encountered very excellent defense attorneys. Some of my friends are. We need that aspect of the system. I want them to have their due process rights protected and [inaudible] to my burden, but it’s hard because working with the victims you see the impact that not only the assault has, how it’s changed their lives. The trauma, especially when we’re talking about untested rape kit cases or cold cases that we reopened. You see the impact that it has just on their ability to function everyday or to move forward. Then they’re willing to take that risk and come along on this journey with you to try to get justice, to try to be heard. Shawana did that. Some of the other victims in that case did that at great personal sacrifice. That case will haunt me forever. I am grounded in the idea that there was nothing more I could have done, and I truly believe that. I mean I worked on that case for four years with three weeks of the trial. I don’t sleep during trial. I probably get four or five hours because there’s something more I always feel I can do. I usually gain about 10 pounds, which is not good, because I’m not exercising during the trial or I wasn’t. It’s probably the reason I pulled back. I’m eating junk. I’m laser focused. I’m not a great mom or wife during that time or probably friend because I do feel this tremendous weight of making sure I’ve done everything I can. I know that in that case I did.
I will constantly be haunted by the idea that 12 people can see something so differently than how I did because I thought after close to 20 years I could predict. I had gotten good at not selling something because I have never brought a case that I believed somebody wasn’t guilty. In fact, I’ve had cases where I asked supervisors to dismiss charges when I thought there was a question of someone’s guilt. I still struggle with how I could have read it so wrong and someone else seen it so differently. So for the listeners, he was acquitted. There’ve been a couple of really great articles written about the case and the impact on the victims.
Shortly thereafter, Shawana Hall died of an accidental overdose. I think I got the call—This is where it intersects with Nassar because it’s hard for me to separate those two cases because they were overlapping at the same time. The Kelly trial was in September 2017 and I literally had to pivot immediately to prepare for the Nassar trial, which we thought was going to start in December 2017 before the plea happened in late November. So it was the weekend before the Nassar plea that I got the call about Shawana’s death. I remember coming home from the Nassar plea. It was the day before Thanksgiving in 2017, and I had finally been able to connect with Shawana’s sister, Talaya, who you’ve met before and talked to. So here we have this relief of Nassar has plead guilty and we have a guaranteed result. Our victims don’t have to go through a potentially six month trial of intense media scrutiny where it still was not a slam dunk case. The jury could have found him not guilty or some other thing could have happened. There’s that kind, I don’t want to say euphoria but relief. Everyone is happy about the fact that he’s admitted it. Then I come home and try to figure out what our family’s doing for Thanksgiving because it was a different year with all that was happening. Then I get a call from Talaya and I connect with her. The detective and I who threw her heart and sole into it too, we built such a relationship with the family. We didn’t blame ourselves. That’s not the appropriate word, but we did feel–
Danielle: Responsible?
Angela: Somewhat responsible, yeah. I mean she had been doing well. Both the trauma of going through a trial and being cross examined and the not guilty hit her really more than anything, probably even potentially more than the assault or at least in a different way. So you know it’s actually her birthday tomorrow. I’m pretty sure it’s either the 4th or the 5th. It’s early April because it happened to be–
Danielle: It was her birthday that night.
Angela: That she was assaulted, yeah. So those are the kinds of things that stick in my head, right. I remember the days of assaults. I remember the locations of assaults because we have to prove those as part of our crime. So those kind of get embedded in my head. I’d probably not be a very fun person to drive around Michigan with because I could tell you where all the different assaults. I had three cases in Charlevoix in a short period of time. Now I go to Charlevoix, which is so idyllic and beautiful, and all I think about is the rape that happened during the Venetian Festival or some other sexual assault. So it is hard to turn it off.
Danielle: I think we should just say happy birthday to Shawana Hall.
Angela: I do too.
Danielle: If she were with us, we’d be able to celebrate that. I think one of the things listeners probably don’t know is that the key difference between the Calvin Kelly case and the Nassar case isn’t who the victims are. In the Kelly case, the majority of the victims were made marginal by their race, by their class, by their poverty. They were not believed in the same way that the victims who were more middle class, had lighter skin, came from intact families were believed. The cases are just so stark in that way. I mean both serial predators, both men who on their face are guilty, but a jury in Kalamazoo refused to believe Shawana Hall. It’s hard not to see that their verdict was rooted, in lots of ways, in their own conscious and unconscious biases. That’s work that we still need to do. We need to work on getting everyone to believe women and men who come forward and say that they’ve been assaulted. Believe first. That’s something that you advocate, right?
Angela: Oh, absolutely. I think it’s important for listeners to know that he still is under investigation in another city that had pending cases and continues to test their rape kit cases and has even more connections. So he’s in custody in Memphis and awaiting trial there on at least three.
Danielle: Oh good. I didn’t realize he was in custody.
Angela: Yes. We worked with those officials shortly after to make sure it was on their radar. Absolutely. I mean there’s a large national movement in light of everything that’s happening here. One of the things I was looking forward to before the country kind of stopped was an international conference I was going to be speaking at in a couple of weeks in Washington D.C. for the End Violence Against Women International. I was going to be doing a case comparison of those two cases and what we can learn, but that group has started a national campaign that essentially is the Start by Believing campaign. That instead of questioning or being suspicious of folks who report or disclose—and we’re not just talking to police. I mean as a result to Nassar, I had at least a handful of family and friends who disclosed their own history to me that I didn’t know prior to that.
When we talk about start by believing, I think it’s important for people to not think of it just in the context of the criminal justice system but in society in general. You may have a friend who comes to you and discloses something that happened to them acutely or years ago. Your response to that person can really impact how they heal, how they move forward, whether they decide to report. There’s this conflict sometimes within law enforcement and prosecution that well, our job isn’t to believe them. It’s to investigate. If we’re automatically believing then we’re abdicating our duty or something. I completely disagree. I think you can both start by believing. You can corroborate. I want the police to do a thorough investigation and try to determine if they can corroborate a victim’s version or not or look into motivation if there is. You don’t do that through a police cross examination of a victim. There’s a good Netflix series, An Unbelievable Rape, where it talks about a true life story about detectives who didn’t believe that victim and then ultimately the ramifications of not believing had impact on other victims. So.
Danielle: That’s a great show.
Angela: It is. It’s very well done.
Danielle: It is very well done. Did you feel like it was pretty true to form in terms of inside business?
Angela: Oh absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean the thing about that is I had read the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist T. Christian Miller and Ken Armstrong, their long story that won the Pulitzer about that case. So that’s what started it. Then I know they wrote a book and then became a movie. I know [inaudible] was instrumental in assisting them with some of the technical assistance parts of it, but it was spot on about what we hear. I mean we’re in suburban Detroit. When I was in Wayne County, I was there when they discovered the 10,000 plus rape kits. When Kim Worthy became a really national advocate on this issue and raising awareness and this idea that it’s not a Detroit problem. I think at its peak there were 400,000 rape kits that were untested. Even just in those 10,000 in Detroit, they found connections to, I think, well over 40 states. So there are real ramifications both in public safety and offender accountability and victim healing when we don’t start by believing.
Danielle: Right. What do you think is the role of investigative journalists in the work that you do?
Angela: I have such tremendous respect for all journalists and especially the investigative journalists. Even in the last couple of weeks I think there’s so much news being disseminated and consumed. One of the pieces that I don’t think got enough attention and kind of got buried is this idea that thousands of journalists around the country through I think it was Ginette are going to be forced to have furloughs one week a month. What that really means for our communities is that these watchdogs who on our behalves are holding public officials accountable, holding institutions accountable, who sometimes are the only voice for a victim. When we look back on Nassar and we see how people had reported to people in authority and how those reports were diminished or buried. Particularly when we look at USAA Gymnastics. People thought they were doing the right thing by telling the president and others who have relationships with the FBI. I think all of that, that chapter is still left to come out in writing. Without those journalists, we wouldn’t have Nassar. Without those journalists, I would submit much of the focus we’ve had on rape kits wouldn’t happen. Without those journalists, we wouldn’t have Me Too and Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby and all of these kind of groundswell cases.
So I know just in the 20 years I’ve been within the criminal justice system, I think I talked earlier about picking up a newspaper and seeing a headline case and then being able to go and watch that case. That just doesn’t happen anymore. I know in Detroit there were at least a small handful of reporters whose job it was to cover Frank Murphy because you have 13/14 floors of just the craziest stuff going on. You could be in an elevator with the defendant’s family and a victim’s family and a police. That’s just not happening. So we’re already missing those stories. It kind of blows my mind when I talk to my friends there and they’re telling me about a big case they’re doing it. I’m like I’ve never heard of this. How can I not hear about this?
Danielle: Right.
Angela: Because it is important. Without those investigative journalists, there’ve been so many journalists involved in the Nassar case that I think have been great and others who’ve branched off, including on the Kelly case. Matt Mencarini from the Lansing State Journal are formally—His office allowed him to really dive into the Kelly case and spend a significant amount of time on that subject because they found value in telling that story. That’s what we lose when we don’t prioritize investigative journalists. I think it’s one of the most local things. I want to know what my city council’s doing and not just rely on Nextdoor or some other place to get it, right?
Danielle: Especially not Nextdoor.
Angela: Especially not our Nextdoor, right. No offense to the people that might be listening from Nextdoor.
Danielle: We could have a podcast just about kooky things from Nextdoor.
Angela: We could. Just from our own, right? But yeah. It’s troubling. I think that people have so many things to worry about right now. I know that that is probably not on most folks’ radar, understandably so, but if we lose the free press, if we lose our investigative journalists I think that the ripple effect through society is pretty horrific.
Danielle: Yeah. I agree. I agree. I have a couple of more questions and these are going to be kind of fast ones. Then I think maybe you probably want to eat some lunch or something. So what is your go to pump me up song that you listen to on the way to court or on the way to work? Did you have a song that you listened to during the Nassar case that helped you?
Angela: Oh jeez. I had a playlist that I would go to, but I don’t know. Can we swear on this thing? I don’t know what I can tell you.
Danielle: Of course you can swear on this thing.
Angela: So you may already know this.
Danielle: This is why I asked.
Angela: You do, right? That’s why you’re asking this. So one of my songs that I would go to when I was getting frustrated—and there were a number of frustrations along the way—but Big Sean was a go to. I Don’t Give An F About You. Not in a pump me up kind of way. In an I’m on the treadmill wanting to get try to get rid of this anxiety kind of thing. I had this playlist called fierce. I put a bunch of songs in it that reminded me of the victims or reminded me of Rachael or reminded just of this moment. Like Rachel Platten’s Fight Song was one of them. It always reminded me of Rachael Denhollander. This is going to get really cheesy, but Jewel Hands. That song kind of reminded me of the duty that I had to kind of help people. Oh, I can’t even remember some other ones. I mean I love all genres of music and tend to kind of gravitate towards sometimes 90s hip hop a little bit. So Eminem is always one. I think Lose Yourself is something. My friends if they were asking you from law school would tell you that there are two songs whenever I do karaoke or go to a Tiger’s game. It was Brick House. That was one of my karaoke songs.
Danielle: That was one of my favorite songs too.
Angela: Like the Eye of the Tiger. I love that song at Comerica Park. I could go on and on about music. There are so many great songs.
Danielle: Knowing what you know now about the world, about yourself, about being a mother, a friend, what advice would you give to your 20 or 30 year old self?
Angela: Well, I think one of the most important things—and this wasn’t a conscious decision—but I’ve told law students this when I speak to them because so much of them are focused on what’s my job going to be and where’s my first job and what’s my career? How do I get to be partner? How do I get to be judge or whatever? The most instrumental decision I think I’ve made in my life has been kind of who my partner is, who I marry, who my support system is. I hope everyone is as lucky as I think both of us Danielle to have tremendous partners through these life’s journey because I know I couldn’t have gotten through those really tough years of prosecuting and just trying to dig myself out of this emotional hole as a result of it without my husband. Knowing that he could handle everything that came our way with the kids and school and all of those responsibilities. So we’ve been together for 20 years, shortly after law school. That’s something I think is lost. I think we’re just lucky to have had that opportunity and to have found the people that really support my career and my ambition and my goals and have similar goals with our family.
I would say not to stick to the plan that you think you have for your life. If I would have stuck to that plan as a 22 year old first year law student, I wouldn’t have been a prosecutor. I thought I’d always be a prosecutor in Detroit and thought I’d spend 30 years there. Then an opportunity kind of came with the attorney general’s office to start something new. As a result of that, there were so many blessings and opportunities and doors that opened. Then really being aware of kind of when you need to make a change. I’ve since left the attorney general’s office as you know about a year and a half ago. I realized that for our family at that stage in our life that I could still do really good work and be committed to this bigger passion of mine and working on intimate partner violence and sexual assault but do it in a way that also took care of me, my emotional well-being, my physical well-being, and my family and the needs of my family at this stage. So I don’t know what the future looks like for me professionally or what, but at the stage I’m at right now I feel like I’m still having a really great opportunity to do good work but also have a much more balanced life. So.
Danielle: That’s really important. I know you’re doing good work and you’re making huge changes. You’re training police and prosecutors, you’re talking to judges, you’re educating everyone around you. You have made history. I know because I know you and know what kind of person you are that you will continue to do that.
Angela: Thank you. I’m grateful for you.
Danielle: I’m grateful for you too. Thank you for talking to us today.
Angela: Thank you for having me. This was fun.
Danielle: It’s been great. I hope to see you in the hood.
Angela: From six feet away at least.
Danielle: Yeah. We need a long walk. What are you doing during the quarantine to stay sane?
Angela: Well, I am grateful that we have the ability and opportunity to have a peloton bike in our basement. We’ve had it for about a year. It was I think a recommendation from you guys. I have got a nice streak going. So even if it’s just 10 minutes I’m jumping on the bike every day. Hopefully, a little bit more time to get lost in that. I still am trying to keep this gratitude practice where everyday even with so many worries and concerns and really all the stuff happening in the world, I have so much to be grateful for. So every morning I try to write it down, do a little bit of meditation, and try to have some grace with myself because it’s hard juggling all that we’re juggling with the dark cloud that I think it over everyone whether they realize it or not. So.
Danielle: I agree. So if people want to find you, where can people find you on the internet Angie?
Angela: Oh, so I’m on Twitter. I don’t even know what my Twitter handle is. I can link you to it. I think it’s @AngiePovilaitis. That’s the best place.
Danielle: Perfect. Thank you.
Angela: Thank you guys.
Danielle: Talk to you soon.
Angela: Bye.
The post A Powerful Conversation About Victims’ Rights with Attorney Angela Povilaitis appeared first on RoshReview.com.
Today’s episode is with Dr. Billy Goldberg.
Some of you may recognize Dr. Goldberg from his work as an author.
His first book, Why Do Men Have Nipples? Hundreds of Questions You’d Only Ask a Doctor After Your Third Martini, was published in August 2005 and reached #1 on the New York Times Best Sellers list, where it remained for 11 weeks.
His second book, Why Do Men Fall Asleep After Sex? More Questions You’d Only Ask a Doctor After Your Third Whiskey Sour, was published in August 2006 and also reached #1 on the New York Times Best Sellers list.
I’ve read both of these books and found them to be extremely informative and very entertaining.
In February 2008, Dr. Goldberg began to host his own show, the Dr. Billy Goldberg Show on Doctor Radio Sirius XM Channel 110.
When not writing books or hosting his show, Dr. Goldberg is an emergency medicine physician at NYU/Bellevue Hospital in the heart of New York City.
I met Dr. Goldberg during my training at NYU/Bellevue and consider him a role model for his unique ability to combine humor and levity to patient care and resident education.
This was a really fun interview.
We talk about Billy’s childhood, how he became interested in media, the event that led to the idea of his first book (Why do Men Have Nipples), the most influential people in his life, the best advice he provided me on the final day of residency training, and so much more.
So without further ado, sit back, relax, and enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Dr. Billy Goldberg.
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Normally on this show I sit down and talk to leaders from various backgrounds such as medicine, business, and entertainment to learn about their successes and failures, ideas and ambitions, and most valuable lessons they’d like to share with you.
However in this episode, the tables are reserved and I am interviewed by Vinny Vallarine, the host of The Unlatched Mind podcast.
We had a 1-hour comprehensive discussion including the science, economics, and path forward during coronavirus (COVID-19).
This is an excellent discussion that takes a deep dive into COVID-19 with topics that will not be covered by cable news.
Vinny did an incredible job hosting the show and directing the conversation.
I encourage you to listen and can assure you that you’ll gain a much deeper understanding of COVID-19 and be better prepared for what’s to come.
For those of you who want to go to the original episode, you can find it at unlatchedmind.com.
The post (Almost) Everything You Want to Know About COVID-19 appeared first on RoshReview.com.
Magical is how I would describe Dr. Dara Kass.
She is an Assistant Professor of Emergency Medicine at Columbia University Medical Center, where she also serves as the director of Equity and Inclusion for the Emergency Department.
After completing her residency at SUNY Downstate Medical School and Kings County Hospital, she served as faculty of Staten Island University Hospital, where she facilitated the start of their EM residency program.
She previously served as the director of undergraduate medical education at NYU. As director, she introduced longitudinal career advising, innovative educational modalities, and numerous clinical experiences.
She is the founder of FemInEM, an organization dedicated to the achievement of gender equity in emergency medicine. FemInEM serves as an open access resource for women in EM: a community focused on career development, physician support, and seeing women in medicine thrive. What began as a blog is now a movement—a multi-faceted community comprised of women in medicine all over the world.
I can tell you that words are not enough to understand the magic and energy Dara brings to everything she is involved in.
In this conversation we talk about Dara’s childhood, what it was like growing up in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, in a duplex house with her grandparents on the ground floor.
Dara shares her story about the spark that led to the founding of FemInEM.
We hear about how she went from a simple supporter of Mayor Pete in the Democratic primaries to a member of his campaign.
And the most amazing part of this conversation is that just a couple days before the recording, Dara tested positive for the coronavirus causing COVID-19.
So, I spoke to her while she was in quarantine at her house, isolated from her kids, but still on the frontlines by continuing to care for patients through telehealth.
Dara is a locomotive when it comes to getting things done, but I can also tell you that she is someone who brings everyone together, finds the best in them, and builds something where the whole is greater than the parts.
So without further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation with the amazing Dr. Dara Kass.
The post A Conversation With the Magical Dr. Dara Kass appeared first on RoshReview.com.
The podcast currently has 13 episodes available.