Copyright Waffle

Jane and Chris from copyrightliteracy.org talk to their most distinguished guest to date - copyright legend the Rt. Hon. Professor Sir Robin Jacob.

Robin talks about his journey from physics student at Cambridge through to his life as a barrister and eventually High Court judge. He gives us the inside scoop on the cases he defended and presided over and talks about some of his copyright heroes. And of course he tells us the name of his favourite cake.

This podcast interview was recorded on 15 January 2025. We are extremely grateful to Robin for his time and for his patience while he waited for us to finish this edit.

Robin's copyright heroes:

- William (Bill) Cornish - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cornish

- Hugh Laddie - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Laddie

- Peter Prescott - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Prescott_(barrister)

- Anthony Walton - https://iporalhistory.co.uk/project/walton-anthony/

- Thomas Blanco White - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Blanco_White

Some selected cases:

- EMI Music Publishing vs Papathanasiou (Vangelis, Chariots of Fire): https://www.lostinmusic.org/cases/detail/16-emi-music-publishing-vs-papathanasiou-spheric

- Hyperion Records vs Sawkins: https://www.5rb.com/case/hyperion-records-ltd-v-sawkins/

- Interlego AG v Tyco Industries Inc (the Lego case): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlego_AG_v_Tyco_Industries_Inc

- Columbia Graphophone case: https://www.lostinmusic.org/cases/detail/10-frederic-austin-vs-columbia-gramophone-co

Chris and Jane (copyrightliteracy.org) talk to upcoming Icepops keynote Monica Westin about her journey from library school, through to Google, Manchester Metropolitan University and now to Cambridge University Press. We discuss how big tech companies deal with copyright takedown requests, what the legal and ethnical implications of new technologies are on finding and accessing information and finally what her favourite cake is.

With thanks to Aiden Clark for his editing support on this episode.

Monica's blog: https://www.monicawestin.com/

Monica will be our keynote at Icepops 2025: https://copyrightliteracy.org/2025/07/17/icepops-2025-draft-programme-now-available/

California Digital Library: https://cdlib.org/

Google Scholar co-founder Anurag Acharya: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anurag_Acharya

DMCA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act

Google transparency reports: https://transparencyreport.google.com/?hl=en_GB

Project Lumen: https://cyber.harvard.edu/research/lumen

Internet Archive Scholar: https://scholar.archive.org/

Mark Graham: https://blog.archive.org/author/mark/

Copyright heroes

Alyce Scott: https://ischool.sjsu.edu/post/alyce-scott

Katie Fortney https://cdlib.org/contact/staff_directory/katie-fortney-staff-profile/ and Rachael Samberg: https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/help/staff-directory/rachael-samberg

TorrentFreak: https://torrentfreak.com/

Creative Commons team: https://creativecommons.org/mission/team/

Google Scholar co-founder Anurag Acharya: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anurag_Acharya

Louise Koch at MMU

Cake

NYT Plum Torte recipe: https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/3783-original-plum-torte or: https://coleycooks.com/plum-torte/

20th Century Cafe Honey Cake: https://www.thebutterlab.com/blog/honeycake

Chris and Jane (copyrightliteracy.org) talk to researcher, author and the world's leading expert on all things ABBA - Carl Magnus Palm. They discuss ABBA's origins and the division of creative labour in the band, how the band got their name, the ABBA revival in the 1990s and how they have responded to the huge number of tribute acts. They also share stories of the authorised and unauthorised uses of ABBA's music and once again get dragged into the weird world of the KLF.

Links to things mentioned in the show:

Abba at 50 in the news and BBC documentary:

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/2024/the-bbc-celebrates-abba-in-april-50-years-since-their-eurovision-win-in-1974 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b03lyzpr/abba-at-the-bbc

Carl Magnus's book Abba at 50: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ABBA-at-Carl-Magnus-Palm/dp/1786751011

Carl Magnus's website including his new book (Abba on Record): https://www.carlmagnuspalm.com/

https://www.carlmagnuspalm.com/abba/abba-books

Link back to Mark Lewisohn Copyright Waffle podcast:

https://soundcloud.com/user-243274189/copyright-waffle-episode-20-with-mark-lewisohn-part-1

Pop Pantheon podcast with DJ Louis XIV and Carl Magnus Palm: http://share.transistor.fm/s/1455862b?fbclid=IwAR0khgA-PDB3dUjTQn6B1hP20Ftj1yy76DWwZ8X-WkDQf3BHUr3s7tMwjY0

Abba Mania and trade mark infringement case:

https://collyerbristow.com/shorter-reads/abba-sues-official-tribute-band/

https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/abba-settles-lawsuit-against-tribute-band-over-abba-mania-name-2022-01-21/

George Mcrae's Rock Your Baby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKXui6_y2HM and the Wikipedia article about the song: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Your_Baby

https://www.smoothradio.com/features/abba-dancing-queen-meaning-facts-lyrics-video/

Blurred Lines case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharrell_Williams_v._Bridgeport_Music

Simon Anderson Copyright waffle podcast: https://copyrightliteracy.org/2019/12/16/musical-waffling-with-simon-anderson/

Simon Anderson lecture at Glasgow: https://www.create.ac.uk/news/2017/02/21/anderson-2017/

Dancing Queen by the JAMMs (precursor to the KLF): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJUyqhj4zMM

Link to John Higgs book on the KLF: https://johnhiggs.com/books/the-klf/ and podcast: https://soundcloud.com/user-243274189/copyright-waffle-episode-27-with-john-higgs

Madonna samples Abba's Gimme, gimme, gimme in 'Hung up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_Up

The Fugees sample's the Name of the Game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumble_in_the_Jungle_(song)

Abba National advert from 1976: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqpCjM1XgPU

Swedish Music Archive: https://www.svenskmusik.org/en

Bjorn Ulvaeus President of CISAC: https://www.cisac.org/Newsroom/news-releases/bjorn-ulvaeus-elected-next-president-cisac

Abba Voyage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABBA_Voyage Official website: http://abbavoyage.com/

Abba canned fish company: https://www.abbaseafood.com/

Knowing me, knowing you with Alan Partridge: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowing_Me_Knowing_You_with_Alan_Partridge_(TV_series)

Jane and Chris speak to bestselling author and cultural historian John Higgs about how copyright is intertwined in the weird and fascinating stories he has explored in his books. We talk about Ian Fleming's gold-plated typewriter, the KLF's scrapes with unauthorised sampling, how creative people go fishing for big ideas, how copyright supports him as an author and what the future holds for the next generation of creators.

Podcast editing by Emma Guilbert

Links to things mentioned in the episode

John Higgs website: https://johnhiggs.com/ (sign up to his newsletter here)

Love and Let Die Book: https://johnhiggs.com/books/love-and-let-die/

Mark Lewisohn podcast episode 1:

https://soundcloud.com/user-243274189/copyright-waffle-episode-20-with-mark-lewisohn-part-1?si=26847cea4f884ac1a9892ad374baa104&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

and episode 2: https://soundcloud.com/user-243274189/copyright-waffle-episode-20-with-mark-lewisohn-part-2si=e463e6becab44b90b03816ddfe84a6d2&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

The original Casino Royale (1967) film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino_Royale_(1967_film)

Stranger than we can imagine: https://johnhiggs.com/books/stranger-than-we-can-imagine/

John's book The KLF: the band that burnt £1 million pounds: https://johnhiggs.com/books/the-klf/

The KLF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_KLF

Discordianism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism

Alan Moore and the Ideaspace: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Moore

Brian Eno and the scenius:

https://www.datadeluge.com/2019/01/brian-enos-definition-of-scenius-1996.html?m=1

The 10th anniversary edition of the KLF book (published 2023): https://johnhiggs.com/10th-anniversary-edition-of-the-klf/

William Blake Archive: https://www.blakearchive.org/

Jane and Chris talk to copyright legend Professor Carys Craig (and her best pal Brodie - pictured) about her copyright history, critical legal studies, the fact that copyright is not neutral, the saga of copyright litigation in Canadian universities, copyright anxiety and of course her favourite cake.

Editing by the fabulous Emma Guilbert

Carys Craig biography at Osgoode Law school

www.osgoode.yorku.ca/faculty-and-st…craig-carys-j/

Carys is the author of Copyright, Communication & Culture: Towards a Relational Theory of Copyright Law (2011), and the co-editor of Trade-marks and Unfair Competition Law: Cases and Commentary, 2nd ed. (Toronto: Carswell, 2014) and Copyright: Cases and Commentary on the Canadian and International Law, 2nd ed. (Toronto: Carswell, 2013). Her award-winning work has been cited with approval by the Supreme Court of Canada.

Carys on Twitter: twitter.com/CraigCarys

Links to other things discussed in this episode:

Carys Craig and Bob Tarantino’s article “An Hundred Stories in Ten Days”: COVID-19 Lessons for Culture, Learning, and Copyright Law: digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/ohlj/vol57/iss3/3/

Webinar 29: Friday 15th January: Carys Craig and Bob Tarantino: go.alt.ac.uk/UKCopyrightLit-29

Carys’s article Critical Copyright Law & the Politics of ‘IP’ – available at:

digitalcommons.osgoode.yorku.ca/scholarly…rks/2715/

CREATe Evidence conference where Chris and Jane met Carys in October 2022

www.create.ac.uk/copyright-eviden…sis-and-futures/

Carys’s paper from the Evidence conference on the evidence around copyright and gender:

www.create.ac.uk/blog/2021/12/17/…the-connections/

Amy Thomas’s study from CREATe on women’s earnings – joint report with ALCS

www.create.ac.uk/blog/2023/10/31/…and-a-copyright/

Copyright Anxiety Scale research by Amanda Wakaruk and Celine Gareau-Brenan published in the Journal of Copyright Education and Librarianship:

www.jcel-pub.org/article/view/15212

York University vs Access Canada case

universityaffairs.ca/news/news-arti…ariff-dispute/

Supreme court judgement: decisions.scc-csc.ca/scc-csc/scc-cs…18972/index.do

Ariel Katz – From Copyright Children to Copyright Adults blog post - arielkatz.org/archives/3578

CCH case - scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/…em/2125/index.do

Best practice in OERs – code of practice and webinar that we ran on the topic

cmsimpact.org/code/open-educational-resources/

Webinar 38: 11th June: Will Cross, Peter Jaszi, Meredith Jacob, Prue Adler and Dr Carys Craig. Codes of Best Practices in Fair

Use in OERs: eu.bbcollab.com/recording/21726f2…f9b07cee91d82001f

Extension of Canadian copyright term www.yorku.ca/osgoode/iposgoode/…d-copyright-terms/

Free trade agreements of Canada - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade_…0after%20Germany).

Tunnock’s Teacakes - www.tunnock.co.uk/products/teacakes/

Nothing going into the public domain in Canada – link to news story?

www.lib.sfu.ca/help/publish/scho…right-term-canada

AI and copyright stories in Canada: publishingperspectives.com/2024/01/can…till-unmet/

Best practices guide to OERs in Canada – a Association for Canadian Research Libraries publication: www.carl-abrc.ca/influencing-poli…ce-fair-dealing/

Jane and Chris talk to Richard Ovenden OBE: Bodley's 25th librarian (and Chris's ultimate boss) about leading one of the world's greatest research libraries, his best selling book 'Burning the Books' and the copyright implications of preserving knowledge in the 21st century.

Photo credit: John Cairns

Links to things mentioned in the podcast:

Meet Bodley's Librarian: https://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/about/libraries/bodleys-librarian

Burning the Books Radio 4 serialisation: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000m4pm

Tolkein at the Bodleian: https://tolkien.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/

Amazon's Rings of Power: https://www.amazon.com/Lord-Rings-Power-Season/dp/B09QH98YG1

Withdrawal of UK proposal to expand scope of text and data mining (TDM): https://www.allenovery.com/en-gb/global/blogs/data-hub/uk-re-considers-proposed-exception-for-text-and-data-mining

UK Web Archive: https://www.webarchive.org.uk/ukwa/

Richard's journey to Bodley's Librarian: https://blogs.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/oxfordtrainees/opening-doors-the-journey-to-bodleys-librarian/

Deal Library, Kent: https://local.kent.gov.uk/kb5/kent/directory/service.page?id=5GDeJlwVtCg

Ian Mowat, Historian and forward thinking librarian: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/11953652.ian-mowat-historian-and-forward-thinking-librarian/

Cliff Lynch, director of the Coalition for Networked Information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Lynch

The File by Timothy Garton Ash: https://atlantic-books.co.uk/book/the-file/

Privacy is Power by Carissa Veliz: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/442343/privacy-is-power-by-carissa-veliz/9780552177719

Simon Hopkinson's Saint-emilion au Chocolat: https://racheleats.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/saint-emilion-au-chocolat/

Chris and Jane (https://copyrightliteracy.org/) talk to incoming President of the American Library Association Emily Drabinski about critical librarianship and its relationship with copyright literacy. We hear about Emily's journey to library leadership, how she first encountered copyright questions, her plans for engaging with the library community and some weird facts about books. We also get to hear the song she commissioned to soundtrack her forthcoming presidency.

Music video for Emily Drabinski Rocking the ALA Presidency: https://youtu.be/L1teapiZDVw

Emily Drabinski's website: https://www.emilydrabinski.com/

Emily on twitter: https://twitter.com/edrabinski?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Emily Drabinski's pre-keynote talk for LILAC 2022:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztq_tjtl4zg

Press release when Emily became ALA President: https://www.ala.org/news/press-releases/2022/04/drabinski-wins-2023-2024-ala-presidency

Emily on critical librarianship: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/gc_pubs/537/

Laura Quilter: https://polsci.umass.edu/people/laura-quilter-0

Life story of Christine Jorgensen https://wams.nyhistory.org/growth-and-turmoil/cold-war-beginnings/christine-jorgensen/

Emily's presentation in 2021 at FestivIL - Teaching the Radical Catalogue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97IfrVFiKyc

Radical Teacher journal: https://radicalteacher.library.pitt.edu/

The film with Judith Butler 'Examined Life'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0HZaPkF6qE

Commentary on Emily winning the ALA Presidency: https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/blogs/the-scoop/drabinski-wins-2023-2024-ala-presidency/

Library Futures discussion with Emily: https://www.libraryfutures.net/post/four-questions-with-emily-drabinski-and-kelvin-watson

Emily's Heroes

Dean Spade founder of the Silvia Rivera Transgender Archives: http://www.deanspade.net/projects/sylvia-rivera-law-project/

Mariame Kaba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariame_Kaba and Million Experiments: https://millionexperiments.com/

Ruth Gilmore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Wilson_Gilmore

Boise Idaho: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boise,_Idaho

Jane and Chris go on tour in this episode of Copyright Waffle, speaking to Tania Todorova, Professor of Library Sciences at the University of Library Sciences and Information Technologies in Sofia Bulgaria. In 2013 Tania created the copyright literacy survey to research how much librarians and those working in cultural heritage understand about copyright. The survey has subsequently been run in over 14 countries around the world and we maintain a list of publications on the International Copyright Literacy Survey webpage. We ran the survey in the UK in 2014 and published our findings in 2015 in the journal Library and Information Research.

Tania invited Jane and Chris to Sofia in May of 2022 to speak to partners in the DeCRIS project which is an ERASMUS funded project exploring Digital Education in Times of Crisis and the role of OERs. Partners in this project attending the meeting were mainly library science educators from Bulgaria, Croatia, Germany, Spain. We were attending the second project multiplier event.

Jenna Hartel from University of Toronto also presented at the multiplier event – she has made a series of videos for library educators that she's put on her INFIDEOS YouTube channel. She had a sabbatical to create these 45 videos in place of writing a book or a chapter.

Tania is also on the organising committee of the BOBCATSSS conference which we presented at in January 2020. This is an annual conference for library students and LIS educators.

In this episode Jane and Chris also discuss the Jisc OER programme which ran from 2009-2012.

Links in this episode include:

Tania Todorova’s profile: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tania-Todorova

University of Library Sciences and Information Technologies: https://www.unibit.bg/

Copyright literacy Survey website: https://copyrightliteracy.org/about-2/international-copyright-literacy/

Our research on copyright literacy in the UK: https://lirgjournal.org.uk/index.php/lir/article/view/675

DECRIS project: https://decris.ffos.hr/

Jenna Hartel’s INFIDEOS YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVzUXHLxImg

BOBCATSSS conference: https://bobcatsss.info/

Jisc OER programme: https://www.jisc.ac.uk/rd/projects/open-education

Jane and Chris (copyrightliteracy.org) speak to science fiction author, journalist, digital rights activist and copyright legend Cory Doctorow.

We hear about his introduction to the copyright debates, his conversion to openness, the problems with the modern copyright regime and his latest book 'Chokepoint Capitalism' written with Rebecca Giblin. We also get his response to a song commemorating our conversation which appears to be by Kraftwerk.

Here are links to the things Cory mentions in the podcast:

Cory on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Doctorow

Cory's blog https://pluralistic.net/

Electronic Frontier Foundation https://www.eff.org/

Cult of the Dead Cow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_the_Dead_Cow

Walled Culture podcast with Cory Doctorow (Part 1) - https://walledculture.org/interview-cory-doctorow-part-1-newspapers-big-tech-link-tax-drm-and-right-to-repair/

Part 2 https://walledculture.org/interview-cory-doctorow-part-2-new-publishing-models-for-creators-amazon-as-a-frenemy-and-the-internet-archive-court-case/

The Dawn of Everything by Graeber and Wengrow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawn_of_Everything

Chokepoint Capitalism - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/710957/chokepoint-capitalism-by-cory-doctorow-and-rebecca-giblin/

Pixsy and copyright trolling https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252488167/Automated-image-recognition-How-using-free-photos-on-the-internet-can-lead-to-lawsuits-and-fines

Cory's open letter to Pixsy CEO

https://doctorow.medium.com/an-open-letter-to-pixsy-ceo-kain-jones-who-keeps-sending-me-legal-threats-5dfc54558f2c

Cory's favourite cake

https://www.wholesomeyum.com/recipes/low-carb-keto-sugar-free-carrot-cake-recipe/

Glossary:

Orthogonal https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orthogonal

Barratry https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/barratry

Part two of a fascinating conversation where Jane and Chris (copyrightliteracy.org) talk to Beatles expert Mark Lewisohn about the link between the Beatles and copyright and his relationship with research and archives.

Mark (www.marklewisohn.net/) is the author of multiple best selling books on the Beatles, the most recent of which is 2013's Tune In, the first volume in the three part definitive history of the band. We are honoured to be given a tour of his archive which uncovers a wealth of fascinating historical source material. We finish with a discussion about Paul McCartney's efforts to regain control of his back catalogue.

This is part 2 of two podcasts. Part 1 (https://soundcloud.com/user-243274189/copyright-waffle-episode-20-with-mark-lewisohn-part-1) includes a discussion about when the Beatles first encountered copyright, their publishing arrangements and copyright infringement cases associated with their music.