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Could there ever be a good orc?
Welcome to our first ever listener question episode! Thanks to Deb for this intriguing idea.
1:00 Tom Shippey, sources
1:20 Hi Deb!
1:37 Orc clans - warlike
1:50 Sauron and Morgoth found ways to unite them.
2:00 Nature of evil
2:30 People asked Tolkien this very question! Specifically Peter Hastings, the manager of the Newman Catholic Bookshop.
2:50 Naturally bad, but not irredeemably bad.
3:20 Who is Tom Shippey?
4:20 Orcs made by Morgoth
4:30 Evil can’t create, can only corrupt.
5:00 Morgoth made orcs in mockery of the elves and Eru.
5:15 It’s an example of subverting God’s will.
5:30 Orcs in other literature are generally derived from Tolkien (discussion of Bright).
7:10 Orcs and loyalty. See Tom Shippey’s Orcs, Wraiths, and Wights. Orcs show knowledge of good and evil.
7:38 “Regular Elvish Trick”
8:00 Elvish = bad, orcs are the opposite of elves.
8:20 Dan thought orcs would have opposite morals but they don’t.
8:40 Elves can be bad too, just look at Fëanor (or Eöl).
8:50 Orcs are the infantry of the old war against the Vala and the elves in the first age.
9:18 Morgoth put his power into his works, the evil dilutes.
9:40 Erica’s amazing hand gestures.
9:50 Morgoth’s diluted evil - this idea has spread to other fantasy.
10:14 The dilution of evil is also dilution of control, so Sauron has a harder time controlling them than Morgoth did.
10:20 Tolkien tossed around the idea of a hive mind, but never really settled on it. They misbehave.
10:40 Ocrs that were elves vs. orcs that were men?
11:00 Orcs vs. goblins - idea for future research for Erica! Or, if you know, please tell us where Erica can look it up!
11:20 Goblins/elves = Moria, Orcs/men = Mordor? (upon further consideration, Erica doesn’t think this part is terribly likely because both of those places are extremely far East considering when orcs came into being)
12:10 We solved everything! Wait… not in any way…
12:27 Melkor corrupted orcs and they serve him out of fear.
12:47 The alternative is unpleasant
13:00 Born, not manufactured like the goo chamber in Orthanc in the movies.
14:00 Initial group created in the first age and the rest descended from them.
14:20 Is the goo chamber in Orthanc corruption? (Erica needs to watch the special features again)
14:54 Could there be a good orc? Yes. Not irredeemable.
15:00 It’s important to Tolkien to have redemption as an option.
15:24 Catholic background - post-fall beings with free will
15:50 Nothing can be created without Eru
Tokien’s letters p 195 - “by accepting or tolerating their making… orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good”.
16:28 Orcs know good and evil so they MUST be redeemable.
16:40 Only Eru could create things with independent thought
17:05 Eru wouldn’t sanction Melkor’s works like he did Aulë’s.
17:24 Corruption isn’t inheritable
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By Dan Martz, Erica GrunsethWelcome to our first ever listener question episode! Thanks to Deb for this intriguing idea.
1:00 Tom Shippey, sources
1:20 Hi Deb!
1:37 Orc clans - warlike
1:50 Sauron and Morgoth found ways to unite them.
2:00 Nature of evil
2:30 People asked Tolkien this very question! Specifically Peter Hastings, the manager of the Newman Catholic Bookshop.
2:50 Naturally bad, but not irredeemably bad.
3:20 Who is Tom Shippey?
4:20 Orcs made by Morgoth
4:30 Evil can’t create, can only corrupt.
5:00 Morgoth made orcs in mockery of the elves and Eru.
5:15 It’s an example of subverting God’s will.
5:30 Orcs in other literature are generally derived from Tolkien (discussion of Bright).
7:10 Orcs and loyalty. See Tom Shippey’s Orcs, Wraiths, and Wights. Orcs show knowledge of good and evil.
7:38 “Regular Elvish Trick”
8:00 Elvish = bad, orcs are the opposite of elves.
8:20 Dan thought orcs would have opposite morals but they don’t.
8:40 Elves can be bad too, just look at Fëanor (or Eöl).
8:50 Orcs are the infantry of the old war against the Vala and the elves in the first age.
9:18 Morgoth put his power into his works, the evil dilutes.
9:40 Erica’s amazing hand gestures.
9:50 Morgoth’s diluted evil - this idea has spread to other fantasy.
10:14 The dilution of evil is also dilution of control, so Sauron has a harder time controlling them than Morgoth did.
10:20 Tolkien tossed around the idea of a hive mind, but never really settled on it. They misbehave.
10:40 Ocrs that were elves vs. orcs that were men?
11:00 Orcs vs. goblins - idea for future research for Erica! Or, if you know, please tell us where Erica can look it up!
11:20 Goblins/elves = Moria, Orcs/men = Mordor? (upon further consideration, Erica doesn’t think this part is terribly likely because both of those places are extremely far East considering when orcs came into being)
12:10 We solved everything! Wait… not in any way…
12:27 Melkor corrupted orcs and they serve him out of fear.
12:47 The alternative is unpleasant
13:00 Born, not manufactured like the goo chamber in Orthanc in the movies.
14:00 Initial group created in the first age and the rest descended from them.
14:20 Is the goo chamber in Orthanc corruption? (Erica needs to watch the special features again)
14:54 Could there be a good orc? Yes. Not irredeemable.
15:00 It’s important to Tolkien to have redemption as an option.
15:24 Catholic background - post-fall beings with free will
15:50 Nothing can be created without Eru
Tokien’s letters p 195 - “by accepting or tolerating their making… orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good”.
16:28 Orcs know good and evil so they MUST be redeemable.
16:40 Only Eru could create things with independent thought
17:05 Eru wouldn’t sanction Melkor’s works like he did Aulë’s.
17:24 Corruption isn’t inheritable