Fifth Age Podcast: Tolkien Stories

In this minisode, cut from our Feanor episode, we discuss light and how it relates to the Silmarils. We talk about the history of Earendil. He ended up with a Silmaril which was placed in the sky and became the star that was used to create the phial of Galadriel, which Frodo used to burn Shelob. Dan talks about stars granting power to the British in naval history. It all ties together in a neat little package.

References:

All music is courtesy of Doctor Turtle.

In this minsode cut from our discussion of Feanor, we talk about the differences in writing between the Books of Lost Tales and the Silmarillion. We discuss how mythology is filled with the passion that a culture with language instills, but history is drier, even if it is consistent.

References:

All music is courtesy of Doctor Turtle.

In this minisode, cut from our Feanor episode, we discuss Melkor and the Vala. We talk about the creation story of Eä (the world is not called Middle Earth, that’s the continent). We have a brief interruption in the middle from some wildlife. We talk about the creation of the dwarves, elves, and orcs and how frustrating it must be to be Melkor.

References:

All music is courtesy of Doctor Turtle.

In this episode, we discuss Feanor and how he messed things up a lot for everyone. Also, we decide that the Lord of the Balrogs is Krampus.

 

0:53 Oath

1:27 The Darkening of Valinor

2:16 Morgoth is rescued from Ungoliant by Balrogs

2:40 Send us art!

3:05 Fëanor gives a speech blaming the Vala

3:30 Galadriel and Fingolfin’s family followed

3:45 Teleri = sea elves… Fëanor wants their boats

4:20 What happens when the Teleri say no to Fëanor

5:00 Some elves do not take part in kinslaying and some fight against Fëanor with Teleri

5:35 Not enough boats!

6:05 Why did elves leave at the end of LOTR?

6:40 King of Gondolin and Melian the Maia are Luthien’s parents

7:48 We’ll come back for you, Fingolfin

8:14 The Grinding Ice

9:00 Burns the ships instead of helping his half brother

9:25 Ships are Teleri version of Silmarils

10:25 Fëanor’s death

11:40 Fëanor was basically the next in line for the elf throne in Valinor

12:40 Fëanor is a bully

13:20 Why is Fëanor obsessed with light?

14:20 Why is Tolkien obsessed with light? - See Tom Shippey’s Author of the Century Concepts of Evil.

14:58 All of Morgoth’s imprisonments were about light

16:15 Lost Tales - Fëanor used a pearl from the Teleri to make the silmarils

17:05 Morgoth is not around during LotR

18:00 Different parts of Fëanor’s nature

20:28 Fëanor and his kids are awful - His grandson, Celebrimbor disowned his family

21:28 Morgoth’s crown

22:30 Fëanor thought the light of the trees lived in Galadriel’s hair

23:00 Galadriel is the most beautiful girl in the… room (depending on the room) #FlightoftheConchords

24:20 Galadriel’s judgement

24:40 Galadriel judged nobody harshly… except Fëanor

24:50 Gothmog is Krampus!

25:25 Fëanor asked Galadriel for 1 hair 3x. Nah, bro!

26:13 Fëanors fiery spirit consumed his body when he died.

 

References:

All music is courtesy of Doctor Turtle.

This is the first part of a long conversation about the First Age elvish craftsman Fëanor. We discuss background information about who he is and why he is important to talk about. It will give a lot of context to some other topics in Middle Earth. This was recorded a couple of years ago in the summer. We’re outside, there will be noises!

 

2:24 What is it about Fëanor that is worth discussing?

3:30 Dan keeps saying Ga-laid-riel

3:51 Fëanor is not mentioned in LOTR, but his influence is enormous

4:30 Dan hasn’t read the Silmarillion

4:43 Who is this Fëanor guy?

5:00 Noldorian craftsman, was taught by an elvish apprentice of Aulë

5:25 Sauron was also a servant of Aulë

6:10 The Silmarils - contain part of Fëanor so they can not be replicated, even by Aulë. Also contain light of the trees

6:37 Morgoth destroyed the lamps and was imprisoned by the Vala.

6:48 Yavanna creating the trees.

6:54 Creating the Silmarils, trees, sea, and the fire of his spirit

7:17 Silmarils shone from within, Varda hallowed them. If you’re evil, no touchie or it will burn you.

7:40 Silmarils are the greatest work of any elf ever

8:00 Fëanor created the Elvish script - Tengwar - the writing on the one ring and also created the Palantíri.

9:14 Morgoth was released from prison right around the time Fëanor made the silmarils.

9:38 Morgoth spreading rumors that Fëanor’s half brother Fingolfin wanted the high kingship.

9:57 Finwë’s wives

10:43 Morgoth stirred up trouble, telling Fëanor that everyone wanted to steal the silmarils

11:25 Fëanor threatened Fingolfin publicly because of Morgoth’s lies

11:33 Adam and Lilith?

12:15 The awakening of the elves - elves were brought to Valinor by Oromë

13:13 Varda is the elves’ favorite vala because the first thing the elves saw were stars.

13:50 Finwë’s second wife had 2 calmer children. Finarfin and Fingolfin. Finarfin is Galadriel’s awesome dad.

14:56 Míriel and Indis - women are not discussed much except Galadriel.

15:48 Erica made a family tree of the house of Finwë.

17:00 Fëanor was creative but had a dark side, threatening his half brother at a party

17:25 The Vala tried to recapture Melkor when they heard he was making trouble.

18:07 The darkening of Valinor - Ungoliant, the trees, the silmarils, and Finwë

18:44 Vala want to revive the trees by breaking the silmarils to restore light to valinor.

19:30 Fëanor denying the Vala the silmarils shows his character

20:20 The silmarils are sacred objects and light is the cornerstone of the culture.

20:40 Can’t recreate the silmarils, it might not kill Fëanor to destroy the silmarils, but it might?

21:22 When Fëanor found out all the stuff Melkor did, he named him Morgoth, which means “abhorred one”. Then everyone called Melkor that forever.

21:50 The oath of Fëanor - He and his sons take an oath to hunt down anyone that keeps a silmaril from him or his family. DAN IS LAUGHING RIGHT NOW!

22:22 Dan is singing a camp song. Erica never went to camp.

 

In this minisode cut from the end of our upcoming Fëanor episodes, we cover a lot of ground pretty quickly. We discuss whether or not Sauron’s love of crafts and his creative vs. dominant nature, Galadriel’s hair, the work of the Noldo elves, whether or not Frodo had a choice to destroy the ring in the end, if Elrond could have done any better, and how Isildur’s failure to destroy the ring affected Elrond. The reference to Shippey in this minisode is a reference to a part of his book Author of the Century, where he talks about the ring and evil.

 

References:

All music is courtesy of Doctor Turtle.

Welcome to our first ever listener question episode! Thanks to Deb for this intriguing idea.

1:00 Tom Shippey, sources

1:20 Hi Deb!

1:37 Orc clans - warlike

1:50 Sauron and Morgoth found ways to unite them.

2:00 Nature of evil

2:30 People asked Tolkien this very question! Specifically Peter Hastings, the manager of the Newman Catholic Bookshop.

2:50 Naturally bad, but not irredeemably bad.

3:20 Who is Tom Shippey?

4:20 Orcs made by Morgoth

4:30 Evil can’t create, can only corrupt.

5:00 Morgoth made orcs in mockery of the elves and Eru.

5:15 It’s an example of subverting God’s will.

5:30 Orcs in other literature are generally derived from Tolkien (discussion of Bright).

7:10 Orcs and loyalty. See Tom Shippey’s Orcs, Wraiths, and Wights. Orcs show knowledge of good and evil.

7:38 “Regular Elvish Trick”

8:00 Elvish = bad, orcs are the opposite of elves.

8:20 Dan thought orcs would have opposite morals but they don’t.

8:40 Elves can be bad too, just look at Fëanor (or Eöl).

8:50 Orcs are the infantry of the old war against the Vala and the elves in the first age.

9:18 Morgoth put his power into his works, the evil dilutes.

9:40 Erica’s amazing hand gestures.

9:50 Morgoth’s diluted evil - this idea has spread to other fantasy.

10:14 The dilution of evil is also dilution of control, so Sauron has a harder time controlling them than Morgoth did.

10:20 Tolkien tossed around the idea of a hive mind, but never really settled on it. They misbehave.

10:40 Ocrs that were elves vs. orcs that were men?

11:00 Orcs vs. goblins - idea for future research for Erica! Or, if you know, please tell us where Erica can look it up!

11:20 Goblins/elves = Moria, Orcs/men = Mordor? (upon further consideration, Erica doesn’t think this part is terribly likely because both of those places are extremely far East considering when orcs came into being)

12:10 We solved everything! Wait… not in any way…

12:27 Melkor corrupted orcs and they serve him out of fear.

12:47 The alternative is unpleasant

13:00 Born, not manufactured like the goo chamber in Orthanc in the movies.

14:00 Initial group created in the first age and the rest descended from them.

14:20 Is the goo chamber in Orthanc corruption? (Erica needs to watch the special features again)

14:54 Could there be a good orc? Yes. Not irredeemable.

15:00 It’s important to Tolkien to have redemption as an option.

15:24 Catholic background - post-fall beings with free will

15:50 Nothing can be created without Eru

Tokien’s letters p 195 - “by accepting or tolerating their making… orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good”.

16:28 Orcs know good and evil so they MUST be redeemable.

16:40 Only Eru could create things with independent thought

17:05 Eru wouldn’t sanction Melkor’s works like he did Aulë’s.

17:24 Corruption isn’t inheritable

In this discussion from our Stewards of Gondor recordings, we talk about Nimloth, the White Tree of Gondor. We also talk about Elrond solving everyone’s problem by just kicking Isildur into a volcano and the Netflix Shannara series.  

00:30 What’s the deal with the tree?

00:58 It’s name is Nimloth

1:08 Descendent and look alike of Telperion

1:20 The trees of Valinor

1:30 You were right, Erica, the lamps were first!

1:50 The silver tree is Telperion.

2:00 The trees were killed by Morgoth and Ungoliant

2:20 Who are Morgoth and Ungoliant again?

2:40 Ugh. Spiders.

3:00 The tree in Numenor

3:15 Tar Palantir’s prophecy.

3:30 Sauron was in Númenor and wanted the tree destroyed.

3:57 Isildur stole a fruit from the tree/Herculean labor

4:30 Derpules  - get a photo of Derpules

4:47 Nerd alerts all around!

4:57 Isildur brought the fruit to Middle Earth (the continent)

5:50 Isildur doesn’t mess up all the things he does…

6:00 At least he’s not an idiot like Eänur!

6:09 But… he had a chance to destroy the ring and he didn’t.

6:14 Elrond didn’t Sparta-kick him in like he could have.

6:23 Beowulf - Killing one’s kin is one of the worst crimes imaginable. Unfortunately, Erica was wrong here. Elrond wasn’t really related to Isildur, but they were definitely buddies.

6:47HISHE, LOTR pt 2: Elrond Sparta-kicking Isildur into Mount Doom.

7:07 Elrond’s dad was an amazing fighter

7:10? (oops, Erica said badass).

7:07 Elrond was the standard bearer for Gil-Galad.

7:43 The tree in Gondor was tended in the courtyard. One died and was buried in the tombs of the kings. They didn’t want to burn it after the last time… The one in LOTR is the second one.

8:26 Buried another fruit

8:37 Aragorn and Gandalf find it in the mountains.

9:00 It’s a new tree when Aragorn takes the throne.

9:08 In the movie, it’s different. The tree comes back to life.

9:42 Shannara - Ellcrys - Netflix series.

11:58 Magic has a price.

13:40 Back to the topic…

13:45 Tree that Galadriel gave Sam was a mallorn tree. There were mallorns in Númenor, but they aren’t the same.

In case you were wondering, yes, we do care. <3 <3 <3

In this, the last part of our conversation about the Stewards of Gondor, we discuss a whole mess o’ stuff. We talk about some of the issues Erica has with the Two Towers theatrical release, Rivendell’s used car sales, Boromir failing, and Denthor not being able to even.

1:06 how long after finding Boromir does Faramir find Frodo?

1:24 he knows Boromir is dead, but this is the first Frodo hears of it

1:40 Frodo assumes that if the company’s wall died, nobody else could have made it.

2:10 movie/book scene of Boromir trying to take the ring.

3:07 Frodo takes the ring away, Boromir falls on his face, all better!

3:45 Boromir fails the rest of the ring but redeems himself.

4:15 Boromir was looking for Isildur’s bane and asked the council to bring the ring to Gondor.

4:50 Galadriel tests everyone and Boromir fails immediately.

5:30 Boromir held out for a long time. He doesn’t try to take the ring until the decision to go east or west is upon them. He was lost by the time they left Moria.

6:00 Boromir blows his horn as soon as he sees the odds in his fight.

6:55 Boromir blows horn in Rivendell and Elrond is all, “DUDE! Did you JUST?!?!?

7:05 we took the Tombadil down when we stopped selling used cars in the second age!

7:30 Boromir sounds the horn for very few reasons. Like reminding himself that he’s fighting.

8:00 the ring as a catalyst.

8:20 Boromir wants the ring as a weapon against Mordor. Especially once he finds out what it is.

8:45 when Faramir tells his story, Denethor has already figured out what’s going on with the palantír. Knows that Faramir let Frodo go.

9:03 UNLIKE the movie

9:15 Dan’s reasoning for why the movie is how it is: it’s clearer than if he just lets him go, like in the book.

10:50 Erica disagrees. Hates the Frodo in Osgiliath scene (for several reasons but also) because it’s a Boromir decision.

11:30 in the book, it shows Faramir easily passing the test that Boromir failed. It illustrates the differences between the brothers.

11:40 Faramir presents himself to Denethor for judgment, tells his story and says “I hope I have not done ill”.

12:50 Denethor disagrees with Faramir’s decision. Thinks he’s weak.

13:35 Faramir’s courage is standing up for what’s right, not charging into battle. So Denethor tries to get him to prove himself by sending him into battle in his brother’s place.

14:35 asks if there is a captain that will do his lords will IN FRONT of other generals like Prince Imrahil. Not cool, Denethor… not cool.

15:15 the movie puts Faramir in a worse position to show his courage more starkly.