Counsel to Counsel - Career Advice for Lawyers

In the 25 years that I've been coaching attorneys, one of the common themes I hear is the desire to go in-house. We have spoken a number of times on this podcast about that.

Conventional wisdom says that going in-house means becoming more of a generalist and many of the in-house counsel I have interviewed have found that their work broadened a lot once they left private practice.

My guest in this episode, Misty Leon, took a different path. She has parlayed a niche practice into a great in-house role. In this interview, we talk about her path into a corporate law department, what it is like to be in a compliance role in a rapidly changing legal environment, and how her life has changed since leaving private practice.

What I love about having the chance to talk to Misty is that we have only met virtually. But since the pandemic, our paths have crossed many times on LinkedIn, on webinars, and in ways that would never have happened since Zoom took over the world.

Misty Leon is legal counsel to Texas Instruments in Dallas. She is a benefits attorney with 20 years of experience working with employer-sponsored retirement plans, health plans, and executive compensation plans. In 2021, she transitioned from being a partner at an employee benefits boutique firm to an in-house role. She also worked for several large law firms early in my career, and has represented both public and private employers, including governmental entities.

Additional Resources

• Episode 91-Transitioning Your Legal Career to In-house and Beyond With Amy Katz
• Episode 78-Transitioning to General Counsel-Career Lessons from a Litigator
• Episode 66-Going In-house with David Sclar
• What I've Learned as In-House Counsel
• Frequently Asked Questions About Going In-House
• Episode 49-Adapting to Change, Pivoting to In-house and DEI in the Legal Profession
• Episode 39-An In-house Career in the Life Sciences

One of the things I love most about doing this podcast is that I get to meet really interesting people and interview them. My guest in this episode takes the meaning of "interesting" to a whole new level.

Susan Ibitz is a face reading profiler who describes herself as a Human Behavior Hacker. Through her company, Human Behavior Lab, Susan has trained, consulted, and worked with lawyers, politicians, law enforcement, managers, sales teams, and literally anyone who wants to be more effective in reading body language.

She was trained in profiling by the CIA, FBI, U.S Military, and international militaries. She is certified as a Level III Hostage Negotiator and has many other certifications to her name.

Susan's mission is to reach, teach, and train others to unlock the science behind human behavior. She has worked with police departments, trial lawyers, sales teams, governments, and corporations as well as many other institutions. She helps her clients utilize profiling skills to increase sales, team productivity, employee engagement, team building, strategy, effective communication, marketing, and growth.

She is fluent in Spanish, Portuguese, English, and most importantly, body language, micro-expressions, linguistic forensic analysis, and face reading with a mask or without. She has worked in the U.S., South America, Mexico, Europe, and the Caribbean.

In this episode, Susan talks about her work and offers us some practical tips that we can use to be more effective in and out of the courtroom as well as in leadership roles and in marketing our legal services.

Retirement today is very different than it was 50 years ago. People are living longer, and lawyers, like many other knowledge workers, have the ability to work well into their 60s, 70s and beyond. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was productive well into her late 80s. But for many lawyers, continuing to work is a default option rather than something that has been carefully planned out. Part of the reason is that lawyers have very strong professional identities. Part of the reason is finances. As high-income earners, many lawyers fear that they won't have enough money to last them throughout retirement. That fear needs to be addressed before decisions can be made.

From my perspective as a career coach, I see lawyers creating meaningful and productive "third chapters" of their lives. A crucial part of this is to look at finances.

Given how long many Americans are now living, taking the time to prepare to finance your possibly lengthy retirement is essential in making a successful career transition. Finances should really be the first step in any transition planning. If you are healthy, it can be an exciting time of life. Figuring out how you will make it all work financially is an important first step.

My guest, has written a new book on that very subject. In this episode, we discuss her book and the financial considerations for lawyers who are planning for their next stage of life.

Julie Jason is the author of The Discerning Investor: Personal Portfolio Management In Retirement For Lawyers (and Their Clients).

Julie is an investment manager who started out on Wall Street as a lawyer. Thirty years ago, she founded her own Investment Counsel firm—Jackson, Grant, Investment Advisers, Inc. of Stamford, CT, a fiduciary boutique—where her team manages personal portfolios for high-net-worth families. She writes and speaks frequently on financial literacy and related topics . I met Julie while serving on a panel put together by the Senior Lawyers Division of the American Bar Association.

Other Resources

• Succession Planning for Your Career: What Comes Next?
• Episode 67-Retirement By Design (for Lawyers)

The pandemic put a damper on international travel. It also reduced the opportunities for American lawyers to practice law overseas. But as travel has returned, the demand for legal talent trained in the United States has never been stronger in the Far East.

One country where the need is particularly strong is Japan.

So what does it mean to practice in Japan? How do you find opportunities? What are some of the cultural differences and what do lawyers who are thinking about an international adventure need to know? My guest, Catherine O'Connell, has practiced law in Japan for over 20 years and has a lot of the answers.

Catherine O'Connell is originally from New Zealand, and has worked for major firms in New Zealand, Tokyo and London. She has held several in-house positions for well know Japanese companies.

Today, she has her own boutique law firm in Tokyo where she serves as a fractional lawyer providing on demand legal services to big and small companies. She also serves as an outside general counsel on retainer. She is the first foreign female lawyer to launch a firm in Tokyo.

Catherine has won numerous awards and as host of the award winning Lawyer On Air Podcast.

In the episode, Catherine discusses her experience in assimilating into the Japanese legal community. We also be talk about lessons she has learned from producing her own podcast.

Over the last 25 years, I've spoken to many lawyers who have expressed interest in going in-house. When I graduated from law school in the late 1980s, opportunities to work in a corporate environment were more limited. Today, there are many more lawyers working in-house. So what has changed? And more importantly, what does it mean to leave behind a law firm job.

Since most in-house jobs are no guarantee of lifetime employment, how should lawyers position themselves for future career success after they shift their careers in-house?

My guest, Amy Katz, is someone whose career I've been following for over 20 years. She began her career in a large firm, but has experience working for a major biotech company, going back into private practice, and more recently, has been working in non-practicing roles as a recruiter.

Today, Amy is the Chief Talent Officer for Outside GC.

Prior to rejoining Outside GC she did in-house recruiting for Major, Lindsey & Africa where she focused on recruiting general counsel and other in-house attorneys in a wide range of industries, most notably life sciences and technology.

Amy's career experience also includes over 25 years as a practicing employment attorney. Prior to joining MLA, Amy was a Member at Outside GC, advising employers on a wide range of employment law matters, conducting workplace and academic investigations, and designing and delivering compliance training. Before that, she served as senior employment counsel for Genzyme Corporation.

Amy began her legal career in the employment law department of the Boston law firm Foley Hoag LLP. Most importantly, she is someone who I consider a friend.

In this episode, Amy shares her insights about moving from private practice to in-house to a virtual law firm and finally into legal recruiting.

Additional Resources

• Episode 86-Career and Life Lessons from Jim Durham-A Pioneer in Legal Marketing
• Episode 78-Transitioning to General Counsel-Career Lessons from a Litigator
• Episode 66-Going In-house with David Sclar (see show notes for additional resources)

In the legal profession, AmLaw100 law firms get most of the attention. With eye popping salaries now being given to first year associates, it is easy to conclude that getting one of these jobs means you are at the pinnacle of the legal profession.

While starting your career at a major firm has a lot advantages salary, and otherwise, the open secret is that many lawyers who work at these firms will end up leaving by the time they are midlevel associates. Some will go in-house, some will go to the public sector, and others will go to smaller firms.

I've spoken to many lawyers who have stayed and continue to have fulfilling careers. But in my experience, many of these lawyers are much happier after they leave.

And the happiest lawyers are attorneys who have gone in-house or who have launched their own practice.

In this episode, we talk about the latter.

The decision to open your own practice is a daunting one. Lawyers as a group are somewhat risk averse. But it has never been easier to operate on your own or in a small partnership. Technology has made that so much easier.

And I can say as a solo entrepreneur myself, that the rewards are many.

Setting up your own shop requires a new mindset. Launching the practice is the first hurdle. But at some point, most lawyers want to grow or at least make their firms more profitable. Part of that is finding ways to generate more revenue. But another big part of that is finding ways to operate with greater efficiency. Setting up better systems is important as companies grow and law firms are no different.

In a great conversation, Mark Rockwell,talks about how to do that.

Coach Rockwell, works with lawyers who are frustrated by their inability to scale up and become more profitable. He helps them create their vision, and implement an operating platform that builds healthy, thriving law firms. He is a graduate of Willamette University College of Law, and Northwestern University, Kellogg School of Management.

Mark is both an attorney and entrepreneur. He has started and grown several companies during his career, and he has struggled with the same frustrations and setbacks all lawyers and business owners experience.

In law school, we learn how to think like a lawyer. We develop the analytical skills we need to analyze a case, draft documents, research legal issues and provide sound legal advice to our clients. But like many professionals, we don't spend a lot of time studying the human component of the practice of law.

While some of us come to the practice with strong interpersonal skills, many of us have not been in a position to lead prior to entering the profession. As lawyers move up the ranks this can create problems.

Lawyers who are individual contributors may provide outstanding legal services to their clients. But as they move into leadership roles in their firms, they need a different set of skills. And if they don't have those skills, that can create a bad culture.

Moreover, a bad work environment can cause numerous problems for a law firm. For starters, it can cause turnover which can be costly.

As someone who spent many years earning a living in the recruiting business, I know how much it can cost to replace a good lawyer.

So what can law firms do? To address some of the behaviors which are impeding the success of their firm, my guest, Carol Marzouk, has some answers

Carol is CEO and Chief Executive Lion Tamer for Leadership 'N Soul. Her business is all about transforming behavior, relationships, and culture in the workplace. She founded it on the principle that nobody has to endure a toxic boss, toxic employees, or a toxic workplace. In this episode, Carol shares some tips for how to improve the culture, your firm and how to lead more effectively.

I met Carol through my ProVisors business network, and I can say with certainty that she is someone who was very insightful and very generous with her time. She is also a pleasure to speak to.

Listen in for a great conversation about how to deal with toxicity in the workplace. Whether you work with toxic people or recognize some of those behaviors in yourself, Carol has some great advice.

If you listen to this podcast or spend any time around me, you know that I am an enthusiastic member of ProVisors, a nationwide business networking group that is home to some great lawyers, accountants, financial planners, bankers, and many other trusted advisors. The thing I love most about the group is that I get to meet great professionals from all over the country. One of those individuals who I met early on was Frank Rudewicz.

If you meet Frank, it won't take you long to like him. He is the consummate professional who truly enjoys what he does. He is clearly invested in the success of those around him. And from his days at the FBI, he has great stories.

I invited Frank on the show because Frank has deep experience doing investigations. Since some of my audience are lawyers looking for alternatives to the traditional practice of law, I thought it would be great to have Frank on as a guest.

In this episode, Frank and I talk about how he got to where he is today. He shares some thoughts about why lawyers make great investigators and offers some tips for anyone thinking about making a transition.

Frank Rudewicz specializes in forensics and litigation support at the accounting firm CliftonLarsonAllen. He has more than 30 years of experience conducting domestic and international investigations for fraud, forensic accounting, asset tracing and other litigation-related matters. He has appeared on NBC Dateline and Forensic Files for his investigative work.

Frank is experienced in expert witness testimony and is the co-author of a book on Forensic Accounting and Fraud Investigation for Non-Experts. Prior to joining CLA, , Frank served as Principal, Counsel and Partner-in-Charge of Forensic, Litigation and Valuation Services for several national accounting firms and Senior Managing Director and Counsel for an international risk consulting and investigative firm, as well as Vice President of a Super Regional Financial Institution. Earlier in his career, Frank spent 14 years in law enforcement with the Hartford Police Department and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Additional Resources

• Episode 77-Going Solo with Employment Law and Workplace Investigations
• Episode 19-Canoeing vs. Whitewater Rafting-A Career Conversation With Jose Sierra

Anyone who knows me knows that I'm a big consumer of podcasts. For me, podcasts are a significant part of my own ongoing professional development.

As someone who is not a big reader, I have also found podcasting an entertaining way to keep up on law, politics, marketing, and a host of other subjects that interest me including behavioral economics, psychology, mindfulness, true crime, health, and pop culture.

And so I was very excited to stumble upon The Lawyer's Edge Podcast a few years ago. My guest, Elise Holtzman, is the host of that podcast and I've now become a regular listener. I was even fortunate enough to be one of Elise's guests last year.

More importantly, I have been learning a LOT from Elise and her guests about a broad range of career and marketing topics.

Lately, Elise has been focusing a lot of her conversations on the advancement of women in the law and given the depth of Elise's own knowledge on the subject, I thought it would be great to invite her on to talk about some of the challenges that women face when trying to advance their careers.

We talk about how the pandemic has impacted women, how her coaching helps women and non-women alike to develop the non-practice specific skills they need to be successful.

Elise Holtzman is a former practicing attorney, certified executive coach, and the founder of The Lawyer's Edge, where she and her coaching team help lawyers become better business developers and leaders.

Elise began her career as a commercial real estate attorney at two AmLaw 100 firms. She brings a deep understanding of the practice of law (and the demands of operating a firm) to her work.

Elise frequently speaks and writes on the subject of business development and career acceleration and as I already mentioned, she is host of a GREAT podcast.

Additional Resources

Episode 68-Are there Gender Differences in Legal Marketing?—What Men and Women Can Learn From Each Other About Building a Law Practice

I met Jim Durham in the early 1990s when legal marketing was just taking off in law firms. For decades before, law was thought of more as a profession. And while it is still very much profession, there has been a dramatic shift in the way law firms think about marketing.

While there a few remaining firms that rely on longstanding institutional relationships to keep associates and partners busy, most firms today are actively looking for ways to promote their reputations. The most successful and most highly compensated lawyers are the ones who have figured out how to create a niche and build strong relationships with potential clients and referral sources.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s when law firms began hiring marketing professionals and lawyers began working with outside marketing consultants and coaches, I had the good fortune to meet some of the pioneers in this new field. One who really made an impression on me was my guest , Jim Durham.

I recently reconnected with Jim and spoke to him about my work with senior lawyers who are trying to figure out their next stage. Jim is someone who has reinvented himself numerous times in his career. As I learned more about his back story, I realized that Jim was a story waiting to be told.

Jim has been a partner at a major law firm, a sports agent, a Chief Marketing Officer for several major law firms, an outside marketing consultant and inspirational speaker, and an internal marketing executive for MLB.Com , the online arm of major league baseball. Today, Jim Durham is the Chief Operating Officer at Verrill, a large regional firm that has its roots in Portland, Maine.

But his origins would not suggest that he would be where he is today. Listen to his story and hear his inspiring life lessons and valuable advice for being successful in your legal career, whatever path you choose.