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Curiosity As A Tool For Better Relationships With Patrick Boylan
“Be curious, not judgmental.”
In this episode, Nick speaks with Patrick Boylan about the importance of curiosity in understanding others and navigating judgment. They discuss how asking questions can lead to empathy and a broader perspective, allowing for a more nuanced view of people’s beliefs and actions, all while highlighting the balance between judgment and understanding, advocating for a thoughtful approach to interpersonal relationships.
What to listen for:
“At the end of the day, it’s curiosity. Why do you think that? That’s the biggest question that anybody can ask.”
“We need to come together as a species and tackle our world’s issues together.”
About Patrick Boylan
Patrick Boylan is a skilled multi-instrumentalist and co-founder of MuseFlow, a groundbreaking music EdTech platform often called “The Duolingo of Music Education.” Frustrated by the limitations of traditional music education, Patrick began exploring self-directed practice, which reignited his passion for music and led him to focus on sight reading as an engaging learning tool. MuseFlow teaches bite-sized skills through sight reading, allowing students to master new concepts efficiently and enjoyably by focusing on reading and playing music at first sight, then applying those skills to songs that get unlocked. Patrick loves to share his insights on learning and EdTech, inspiring parents, teachers, and self-learners to help students and themselves achieve flow state through MuseFlow’s unique approach.
Resources:
Check out other episodes about curiosity
Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Send Nick an email or schedule a time to discuss your podcast today!
Thank you for listening!
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Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA
Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]
Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”
Click Here To View The Episode Transcript
00:00
The one thing in my opinion that would turn the tides of humanity and make people more empathetic and connected to every person on this earth, that we need to come together as a species and tackle our world’s issues together.
00:23
Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self-Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Patrick Boylan. Patrick, how you doing, man? Doing great. How you doing, man? I’m good. I’m excited you’re here. I think I say that a lot in the intros of shows because I’m having conversation with somebody and there are certain times where like lead time to get onto the show can be maybe a month, maybe two months. Then there are people like you, my friend, who…
00:48
I joked earlier and was like, well, when you first sent your stuff in in 2009. Yeah, but it’s kind of what it felt like though, honestly. But some of those are the best. And truthfully, I’ve had two of you this week. I had one guy a couple of days ago who does drum circles and so much music. And he just disappeared at one point like two years ago and then came back. And I was like, yes, I was hoping you’d come back. So I’m glad that you’re here too. I want us to be able to touch on music, obviously, because of the business that you have and the thing that you’re doing.
01:18
but I want us to be able to get into really how all of it has worked for you over the course of life and how it’s all shaped you to lead you to where you’re at today. Before we get there though, why don’t you get us started? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre? I’m the co-founder of a music education app called Museflow. We teach piano in a very different way. We’re expanding to all common instruments in the next couple of years. So it’s growing, people are loving it.
01:47
and I’m super stoked about it. Something that’s weird or that most people don’t know about me, I have two tattoos. I’ve got one on my butt, on my left butt cheek, it’s called, it’s just a family emblem that my dad drew on all of our napkins for lunches and uh Christmas cards and stuff like that. It’s four bunnies on two hills overlooking a sunset, and it’s our family. It’s me and my dad and my mom and my sister.
02:14
and our cats and our dogs and all that stuff. It’s a really cute little tableau thing, right? The other one is on my upper hip and I got it in college. I got it when I just decided that truth and honesty are going to be the most important things in my life, okay? And so I got a whistleblower. I got a guy blowing a whistle. Didn’t realize how phallic that was when I got it on my upper thigh, you know?
02:43
So it’s a little weird, but like I didn’t recognize that at the moment. What I was going for was like truth and honesty, right? And then I just, got it. And then I started doing, just being blunt, being like kind of mean about it. And like, wasn’t thinking about tact and I wasn’t thinking about like what my friends would be hurt by or if they, I didn’t care. I was just like, truth and honesty. This is just so important to my life. And like, I was being brutal about it.
03:12
And so one of my friends pulls me aside one day and he says, Pat, you got to stop this. You’re just being a jerk. You’re being an asshole about this. Like, yes, truth and honesty is important. Okay. But you got to blend it with everything else. All right. Sometimes tact and holding your tongue is the right call. Cause I got to tell you, you’re ruining friendships right now. I know a couple of people that have talked about this already and they’re saying you’re just being an asshole and they don’t want to be friends with you anymore. So you got to fix yourself or
03:42
you’re going to start losing friends. And I really trusted his opinion. He was one of my best friends. And so I listened to him and I pulled it back a bit. I pulled it back. I find it really interesting how your friend will lovingly say a thing to you, but also that you trust your friend. You know, like they’re the people that, um, they feel like they trust somebody out of, uh, I guess, systemic approach. Well, my family system tells me I should trust my parents.
04:09
or I should trust my brother and sister, or I should take whatever they say, kind of as gospel in a sense. People obviously like shit upon people with their dreams or whatever else, but it’s sometimes in those small things where it’s like, that person is upset that you’re being an asshole about a thing, but for you to be aware of you were being an asshole about it. Like if you didn’t feel you were, you probably wouldn’t have accepted it. You’d have been like, what do you mean? No, I’m just being a little bit of a boast or a little bit of this, but there was a hint of you back there was probably like,
04:38
The power feels good. You know, you’re like, yes, this is wonderful. Two things there, right? Number one, this is a historical relationship. This guy has been one of my good friends for, you know, years. And I’ve been working with him in very close contact throughout many different creative projects. He was a, he’s a director and I’m an actor. And so we worked on like seven or eight shows up until that point. And so I’ve worked with him.
05:07
deeply and very closely and I really appreciate his judgment and his kind of pulse on people. Yeah, you know and so both of those things like I trust the guy with my life and I’ll I’ll I’ll do whatever he wants when it comes to a show I know he has my best interest at heart and and that’s the biggest thing, you know number two I’ve always tried my best to take criticism with as much humility as possible and
05:37
regardless of if it’s accurate or wrong or true to myself or untrue, it doesn’t matter. That’s still your opinion. And your opinion weighed against mine. It just depends on our relationship, but it also depends on how much I trust you and all of that stuff. But like, I will take any and all criticism and I will implement it or not implement it based on the weight that I give it. And if I believe, and I do weigh it against myself, but that being said, it’s one of those things that I…
06:06
pride myself on. I pride myself on my ability to say, well, what do you think to everybody and anybody? And I don’t, doesn’t mean that I have to take it. That’s critical though. You’re two different entities, you know, and even within yourself to be able to say, well, I’m going to take that and you will accept that level of information because of the context. Like context is so important in everything. Everything. But also you can still get things from people like, uh, even if somebody
06:36
walking down the street, they was like, Hey, stop being an asshole. You’re like, well, maybe I can take something from that. Am I being an asshole right now or am I not being an asshole right now? And you get to do something with it. There are, think a lot of times where we as people, and this is where the mindset and self mastery stuff comes into play, where we will take things like, Oh, who’s this random fucking person across the street yelling at me? Why are they yelling at me? And this reminds me of when I was a little kid getting yelled at and these things and that.
07:05
If you take the approach of I wanna take on information and have it my little bucket and go, I don’t want this, I don’t want that, this is kinda cool. And like, okay, you get to do something with it. That’s a level of self-awareness that comes from being healthier, maybe just in that sect of your being. Because you’re like, this is what I’ve dedicated myself to. We also have gotten a little farther away from you have principles in place of trust and truth and.
07:33
honesty and these things that are critical to your being where honestly man kind of makes sense where you’re like I’m putting my foot so far in the fucking ground it’s anchored in there and I think sometimes people will go through that almost like the people how they become evangelical about things like it can be easy to think about uh people getting a multi-level marketing company say drink the kool-aid and go ham somebody who just got into religion god forbid you talk to somebody who was vegan and or in CrossFit
08:02
And all of that, you know what I mean? And it’s like, whoa, it’s like a stage that you can go through where you’re testing it out. You’re trying it out. There is still a little bit of that. I’m sure the power felt great because you’re like, man, I’ve been wanting to say these things for a few years and one more motherfucking thing. Yeah, it was free. It was a sense of freedom for sure. Like I don’t have to I don’t have to abide by any cultural norms of tact. You know, like it felt really great. But.
08:29
Yeah, but then I just realized like, no, sorry, I was just being an asshole about it. was taking it to the nth degree and everything needs to be in balance with other things. You can say truth and honesty are your biggest tenants of life and you can strive for the absolute excellence of that, 100%. But you also have to keep all of these other things aligned as well while you’re doing that. Anything farther on the far ends of any sort of spectrum, whether that’s…
08:57
on the left side or the far, know, whatever it may be, everything is a spectrum. And if you take it way too far and out of context in isolation, it can become toxic. It really can. One of the things I try to do on the show is have these conversations where we break up these big, big pieces, turn them much larger. Like we just explode them, but then also pull them back to smaller pieces without being like, here’s two or three things for you to take away for the week and just chill out these.
09:24
But in all reality, there are certain pieces of that that even in the balance can be really difficult if there are other things that are off balance. If you are triggered by certain things that happened, you can then sometimes get stuck in those triggers. I joke with people on the show pretty fucking often at this point. The more self-aware you become, the more fucking self-aware you become. And the more crazy making it can be while you go through the healing of that stuff because you can’t not see those things.
09:53
And think about what you deal with as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, somebody managing other people, managing yourself. You said you’re married. I don’t know if you have any children, but there’s like all these things. And sometimes people can say, but you don’t understand because boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. They make this major list. Other people will use that and say, yes, it’s because of these things that I have to do these other things. And therefore others will still go,
10:23
but I then get to and it’s all our perspective with doing it. So your perspective came from something that happened years and years and years ago. That’s why you put your foot so far into the ground and almost into people’s asses about just truth and honesty. But when we sit back and think about that a little bit, let’s break that down. Like what, what is it about what you’ve gone through and what you’ve seen? Like, why do you actually care what other people think to be able to then put it your own context? It’s curiosity.
10:53
For me, at the end of the day, it’s curiosity. Why do you think that? That’s the biggest question that anybody can ask. Cool, you believe that about me? Great, what about me makes you believe that? And it’s just curiosity over, and you say that you’re judgmental, like don’t get me wrong, I’m judgmental too. But a lot of my judgment comes from this place of like, well, okay, why would they believe something like that?
11:23
And then it allows me to still empathize with them while still being judgmental and being like, well, you can still be wrong regardless of your history, you know, or you could be cruel or not thinking about something else when you probably should be thinking about something else. And you’re like in the weeds of something here. And you’re really thinking about the reason why the thing should be this is because of all of these other things. But then see, you forgot perspective, see the forest through the trees. And so if I can understand from where you’re where you’re coming from.
11:53
If I get it, if I can get into that, be curious, not judgmental, right? That is something I always try to remind myself. And it is a motto that I like to live by, be curious, not judgmental. I try my best, granted judgment still comes, you know? Well, it’s also a fine line and judgment can have a negative connotation to it, where even judging something, you’re just judging it based on what you know, the information you have, et cetera. It’s what you then do with it.
12:21
you know, if we can get real shitty with it. I know there are times where I get shitty, like it’s easy for me to talk about people driving on the road, because there are certain times you’re like, I don’t even know if you have a license. I don’t know. Are you driving from the passenger seat? Like what the fuck are you doing? But part of me is judging of like, is it safe for me to get past your dumb ass? Is it safe for me to do whatever? And I think there are things that happen within us that are almost mechanical that we’re unaware of.
12:50
Even breathing. Like everybody knows that you’re breathing and then when you actually concentrate on your breathing, you’re like, oh, I’m concentrating on it. We don’t have to think about that. There are other things that happen that we don’t think about because subconscious is there just to keep us fucking safe. And something happened back in the day or back when we were a little kid or something like that. So for you growing up, were there experiences that you had where you were like, man, this is one of those experiences that like rocked my world and changed me. Like that was one of them where your friend was like,
13:19
You’re being an asshole, other people are gonna leave you and stop. Somebody could have taken that, been like, yeah, my buddy Jimmy told me not to be a dick anymore and then everything was cool. And you took that as a critical moment where you’re like, oh, I should do something with it. Were there any others that really stand out? I think my dad was really, really great at teaching us these kind of like critical thinking skills kind of thing, or just understanding context or being creative.
13:47
But there’s two in particular that I’d love to share. And I’m curious what you think about them. Because I think you’d love them. Number one, um when we were like maybe, God, I was like maybe eight or something like that, eight or nine, I was bored. It was like summer break or something, and I was bored. And I was like, Dad, I’m bored. What can I do? uh And he’s like, oh, OK, great. One second. Hold on. Give me a second. And he leaves. And then he comes back with a mop and a bucket.
14:16
And he says, do you know what would be really, really fun? If you mopped the kitchen floor. You know it’s something to do, it’s effective. is, you know, what do you think? Like, do you want to mop the floor? That’s what I got for you. If you want to do that, go for it, please. Otherwise, find something to do. And I was like, that’s actually, that’s great. know, like, touche. You want me to mop the floor? I’m not gonna mop the floor.
14:41
But I will find a way to entertain myself. And ever since then, I don’t think I’ve ever been bored. I’ve always been able to entertain myself. And the other kind of critical, that was such a great thing that he did when we were younger, we did this kind of series of dinners where we did caveman dinners, which were, just made a
15:11
big, big thing of pasta, okay? Pasta and some meat sauce or something like that. And he had a big old butcher block table that we always ate dinner around. So he put a big old tarp, plastic tarp down on the table and onto the floor, kind of drooping down onto the floor. And he got us into our underwear, me and my sister, and we were very young, and he just slopped this big old pot of pasta on the butcher block table in the tarp and he said,
15:41
Go to town. You’re gonna eat with your hands. You’re gonna get dirty and it’s gonna be a lot of fun. We’re calling this caveman dinner, okay? Go wild. And we had a great time. Now the next night, he put us in our fanciest clothes and we sat down for a nine course meal. And he gave us all of the directions on all the silverware, right? And all the different plates and how we do it. And we had to sit there and be proper.
16:09
and have our napkins in our lap and our combed hair and use the silverware properly, right? And so I think it’s one of those things of like balance and context, balance and context, right? You can have the caveman dinner, great, but understand the context of when you need to actually sit straight and have a towel on your lap and eat with the proper silverware. Like you gotta know both those contexts and everything in between to live a happy and healthy life in our society, in my opinion. And so,
16:38
That was one of those things that he was really good at, giving us context and freedom and play, through play and freedom. While still also controlling the situation. Yes, In a beautiful way. Yeah. And educating. Think about what you do now. You have a music education company where you’re teaching people how to play music in a fun way. I wonder who in your life would have led you to do any of that.
17:07
It’s true. 100 % my father. Yeah. And well, think about like, even as you talk about, you know, I’m bored. I remember saying to my dad, dad, I’m bored. He was like, get the fuck outside, go do something. Go do this, go do that. And he would make up all these things that were really exciting to him. And I am not the mechanical engineer type or the one who wants to go out and lift heavy things and like remove shit from people’s backyards or whatever.
17:35
I wanted to go play music or create art or something like that. And there was a disconnect there. There were times where my mom or my stepmom or even my dad at times would go, well, why don’t you go draw or something? I’d be like, yeah, cool, why not? I could have thought of that, but whatever. Like, they gave me a good idea. I’d go do it as a little kid. Or like finger pain or something. But being able to understand context, understanding how people best learn, understanding about those people does come from curiosity, I appreciate that you look at it and go, well, why do you think that way?
18:05
Or why do you look at it that way? I think there’s also much deeper levels that we can get to with that. Like you’re not just curious. I’m assuming this, but I’m also, think we’re of the same elk. Where it’s not just basic curiosity to be curious. There’s a reason. Like we want to understand, like, why do you think like that? How did you get there? Who led this thing to you? How does that make sense in my head? Why does that not make sense in my head? Like what is, the fuck did we do with this information?
18:33
It’s not just the curiosity of it. I mean, it’s really just like, it’s curiosity. I think it’s just, one of those people that is just a student of humanity. I’ve always been curious about human behavior and the motivations behind it. And it’s because I grew up as an actor. was what the thing that I did after college for seven years and…
18:56
and now I’ve pivoted into a career that I really, really love, the co-founder of this music education app that’s basically built on the way that I’ve taught myself how to play piano. And now I’m a professional pianist and I’m doing the app during the day. And you’re like, oh, what a weird life. But I still think that my curiosity comes from being a student of humanity because I was an actor. And you have to get really deep into people’s motivations.
19:24
when you are trying to replicate them in a realistic way. And it’s for outside in and inside out. It’s what are the institutions around them that make them feel and think that way? And do those themes tie into whatever piece that you’re performing in? But it’s also inside out. It is what about their childhood? What about their life? What about their perspective that has really made them behave this way? And so it’s always just been a fascination of mine. Why do people act the way that they act?
19:53
I love that your level of curiosity is at, let’s say a 10 and other people may just be slightly curious. But even if we all just take that a little bit and say, well, how can I be a little bit more curious, little less judgmental, but understand why I’m curious about this thing. Somebody says anything and I go, well, what is it? It’s not just the curiosity or even the answer back. It’s, oh, I really want to know because of whatever it is for each person. So for those people that are
20:21
on their path towards self mastery and along with curiosity, just everything else you’ve been through, what’s your advice for those people? The one thing in my opinion that would turn the tides of humanity and make people more empathetic and connected to every person on this earth, because we’re going to kill ourselves otherwise, that we need to come together as a species and tackle our world’s issues together. Climate change, economic justice, like so many things are global these days.
20:51
And it’s because there are almost 10 billion people on this earth. are so just, and we are a part of the earth. We need to shepherd it to the correct place and we need to be in service of the earth to really let our species just grow and evolve the way it probably should, you know? So with that comes a deep amount of empathy that we need to have for every human on this earth, regardless of culture, race, religion. It is one of those things I need to feel connected.
21:21
to somebody that lives on literally the other side of the earth. And how are we going to do that? It’s through curiosity. What makes you you? Describe it to me, show me. Show me your world. I’m so curious. so, be curious, not judgmental. Granted, judgment does inevitably come. I look, I judge people all fucking day. But it’s also one of those things of like, well, if I really want to know and care,
21:51
Get to the heart of who they are and their behavior and you’ll allow connection to just flourish. And for people that are naturally sort of judgmental or really hyper curious, I think the judgment comes from the bias or a situation that happened to us or just a deep, I don’t understand why you’re doing such a thing. Like I’ve joked to people before, I’ve said, I don’t understand why they’re doing it. I believe myself to be an intellectual and I thought a different way. So why the fuck are you doing it that way?
22:20
And some of it just has a little bit more air of a judgment to it, where it’s like a deeper curiosity. It’s a spectrum, as you put it. Everything’s a spectrum. Understanding ourselves and what we’re looking at, what we want, what we’re trying to do, and the reasons why we do those things, it’s also part of the balance, and we have to take it bit by bit. So man, I appreciate you being on today. It’s been great talking with you. I’m sure this is not the last time we’re gonna talk.
22:48
ah And before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? Yeah, just go to my website musflow.ai. If you want to learn how to play piano in a different way, maybe traditional lessons didn’t work for you. We teach with sight reading first. It’s the act of reading music at first sight. We teach the fundamentals through that, through that skill, through that lens, let you master it without any repetition.
23:14
It’s always new music that is being generated for you at a very specific level and then you beat that level and then songs get unlocked after that. So we’re incorporating technology in and flow state and sight reading and gamification. We’re really bringing it all together into this one new methodology of teaching an instrument and eh it’s fundamentally different and it engages you in a much more holistic sort of way. So if you’re interested in that go to museflow.ai
23:41
Shoot me an email, info at museflow.ai and don’t put that in the show notes, just like, know, it’s for the people who are listening. Yeah, like we would love to hear what you think. I’d love to give your audience a coupon code if they want it. Let’s call it mindset, mindset 50. Anybody who uses it 50 % off for life. Look, we’re still growing. We’re still adding new features as we go. We’re not finished at all. We’re still expanding.
24:09
our accessibility. We’ve got iPad, we’ve got Android tablet, but we’re building it out for phones and any desktop app. so we’re slowly but surely growing this. We’re adding new instruments, uh adding new parts of the app. And if you want to get in that kind of on the ground floor, we just hit a really great marker. are now being able, we can pair overhead with subscriptions. And so the engine is going and it’s rolling and people aren’t churning. It’s like,
24:38
It’s actually doing it and we’re getting incredible feedback from our users. so that being said, we’re still very new. So I’d love to give your audience 50 % off for life if they want it. So it’s mindset 50. It’s great for anybody who is also just, if you’re really, really good, but maybe your sight reading is terrible. There’s a lot of professional pianists that are very good at just like the songs that they know. They have 700 songs and they’re really good at them. A lot of classical musicians are out there that do that, but they’re not.
25:07
good at sight reading. And so they use our app to get better at sight reading. So yeah, it’s good for everybody. It’s good for young people. It’s good for old people. It’s good for new people. It’s good for people that have been doing this for years. Awesome, man. I appreciate that. And I appreciate you being on. Thank you so much for your time today. Vice versa. Thank you,
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By Nick McGowan“Be curious, not judgmental.”
In this episode, Nick speaks with Patrick Boylan about the importance of curiosity in understanding others and navigating judgment. They discuss how asking questions can lead to empathy and a broader perspective, allowing for a more nuanced view of people’s beliefs and actions, all while highlighting the balance between judgment and understanding, advocating for a thoughtful approach to interpersonal relationships.
What to listen for:
“At the end of the day, it’s curiosity. Why do you think that? That’s the biggest question that anybody can ask.”
“We need to come together as a species and tackle our world’s issues together.”
About Patrick Boylan
Patrick Boylan is a skilled multi-instrumentalist and co-founder of MuseFlow, a groundbreaking music EdTech platform often called “The Duolingo of Music Education.” Frustrated by the limitations of traditional music education, Patrick began exploring self-directed practice, which reignited his passion for music and led him to focus on sight reading as an engaging learning tool. MuseFlow teaches bite-sized skills through sight reading, allowing students to master new concepts efficiently and enjoyably by focusing on reading and playing music at first sight, then applying those skills to songs that get unlocked. Patrick loves to share his insights on learning and EdTech, inspiring parents, teachers, and self-learners to help students and themselves achieve flow state through MuseFlow’s unique approach.
Resources:
Check out other episodes about curiosity
Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? Send Nick an email or schedule a time to discuss your podcast today!
Thank you for listening!
Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089
Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA
Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]
Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”
Click Here To View The Episode Transcript
00:00
The one thing in my opinion that would turn the tides of humanity and make people more empathetic and connected to every person on this earth, that we need to come together as a species and tackle our world’s issues together.
00:23
Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self-Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Patrick Boylan. Patrick, how you doing, man? Doing great. How you doing, man? I’m good. I’m excited you’re here. I think I say that a lot in the intros of shows because I’m having conversation with somebody and there are certain times where like lead time to get onto the show can be maybe a month, maybe two months. Then there are people like you, my friend, who…
00:48
I joked earlier and was like, well, when you first sent your stuff in in 2009. Yeah, but it’s kind of what it felt like though, honestly. But some of those are the best. And truthfully, I’ve had two of you this week. I had one guy a couple of days ago who does drum circles and so much music. And he just disappeared at one point like two years ago and then came back. And I was like, yes, I was hoping you’d come back. So I’m glad that you’re here too. I want us to be able to touch on music, obviously, because of the business that you have and the thing that you’re doing.
01:18
but I want us to be able to get into really how all of it has worked for you over the course of life and how it’s all shaped you to lead you to where you’re at today. Before we get there though, why don’t you get us started? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre? I’m the co-founder of a music education app called Museflow. We teach piano in a very different way. We’re expanding to all common instruments in the next couple of years. So it’s growing, people are loving it.
01:47
and I’m super stoked about it. Something that’s weird or that most people don’t know about me, I have two tattoos. I’ve got one on my butt, on my left butt cheek, it’s called, it’s just a family emblem that my dad drew on all of our napkins for lunches and uh Christmas cards and stuff like that. It’s four bunnies on two hills overlooking a sunset, and it’s our family. It’s me and my dad and my mom and my sister.
02:14
and our cats and our dogs and all that stuff. It’s a really cute little tableau thing, right? The other one is on my upper hip and I got it in college. I got it when I just decided that truth and honesty are going to be the most important things in my life, okay? And so I got a whistleblower. I got a guy blowing a whistle. Didn’t realize how phallic that was when I got it on my upper thigh, you know?
02:43
So it’s a little weird, but like I didn’t recognize that at the moment. What I was going for was like truth and honesty, right? And then I just, got it. And then I started doing, just being blunt, being like kind of mean about it. And like, wasn’t thinking about tact and I wasn’t thinking about like what my friends would be hurt by or if they, I didn’t care. I was just like, truth and honesty. This is just so important to my life. And like, I was being brutal about it.
03:12
And so one of my friends pulls me aside one day and he says, Pat, you got to stop this. You’re just being a jerk. You’re being an asshole about this. Like, yes, truth and honesty is important. Okay. But you got to blend it with everything else. All right. Sometimes tact and holding your tongue is the right call. Cause I got to tell you, you’re ruining friendships right now. I know a couple of people that have talked about this already and they’re saying you’re just being an asshole and they don’t want to be friends with you anymore. So you got to fix yourself or
03:42
you’re going to start losing friends. And I really trusted his opinion. He was one of my best friends. And so I listened to him and I pulled it back a bit. I pulled it back. I find it really interesting how your friend will lovingly say a thing to you, but also that you trust your friend. You know, like they’re the people that, um, they feel like they trust somebody out of, uh, I guess, systemic approach. Well, my family system tells me I should trust my parents.
04:09
or I should trust my brother and sister, or I should take whatever they say, kind of as gospel in a sense. People obviously like shit upon people with their dreams or whatever else, but it’s sometimes in those small things where it’s like, that person is upset that you’re being an asshole about a thing, but for you to be aware of you were being an asshole about it. Like if you didn’t feel you were, you probably wouldn’t have accepted it. You’d have been like, what do you mean? No, I’m just being a little bit of a boast or a little bit of this, but there was a hint of you back there was probably like,
04:38
The power feels good. You know, you’re like, yes, this is wonderful. Two things there, right? Number one, this is a historical relationship. This guy has been one of my good friends for, you know, years. And I’ve been working with him in very close contact throughout many different creative projects. He was a, he’s a director and I’m an actor. And so we worked on like seven or eight shows up until that point. And so I’ve worked with him.
05:07
deeply and very closely and I really appreciate his judgment and his kind of pulse on people. Yeah, you know and so both of those things like I trust the guy with my life and I’ll I’ll I’ll do whatever he wants when it comes to a show I know he has my best interest at heart and and that’s the biggest thing, you know number two I’ve always tried my best to take criticism with as much humility as possible and
05:37
regardless of if it’s accurate or wrong or true to myself or untrue, it doesn’t matter. That’s still your opinion. And your opinion weighed against mine. It just depends on our relationship, but it also depends on how much I trust you and all of that stuff. But like, I will take any and all criticism and I will implement it or not implement it based on the weight that I give it. And if I believe, and I do weigh it against myself, but that being said, it’s one of those things that I…
06:06
pride myself on. I pride myself on my ability to say, well, what do you think to everybody and anybody? And I don’t, doesn’t mean that I have to take it. That’s critical though. You’re two different entities, you know, and even within yourself to be able to say, well, I’m going to take that and you will accept that level of information because of the context. Like context is so important in everything. Everything. But also you can still get things from people like, uh, even if somebody
06:36
walking down the street, they was like, Hey, stop being an asshole. You’re like, well, maybe I can take something from that. Am I being an asshole right now or am I not being an asshole right now? And you get to do something with it. There are, think a lot of times where we as people, and this is where the mindset and self mastery stuff comes into play, where we will take things like, Oh, who’s this random fucking person across the street yelling at me? Why are they yelling at me? And this reminds me of when I was a little kid getting yelled at and these things and that.
07:05
If you take the approach of I wanna take on information and have it my little bucket and go, I don’t want this, I don’t want that, this is kinda cool. And like, okay, you get to do something with it. That’s a level of self-awareness that comes from being healthier, maybe just in that sect of your being. Because you’re like, this is what I’ve dedicated myself to. We also have gotten a little farther away from you have principles in place of trust and truth and.
07:33
honesty and these things that are critical to your being where honestly man kind of makes sense where you’re like I’m putting my foot so far in the fucking ground it’s anchored in there and I think sometimes people will go through that almost like the people how they become evangelical about things like it can be easy to think about uh people getting a multi-level marketing company say drink the kool-aid and go ham somebody who just got into religion god forbid you talk to somebody who was vegan and or in CrossFit
08:02
And all of that, you know what I mean? And it’s like, whoa, it’s like a stage that you can go through where you’re testing it out. You’re trying it out. There is still a little bit of that. I’m sure the power felt great because you’re like, man, I’ve been wanting to say these things for a few years and one more motherfucking thing. Yeah, it was free. It was a sense of freedom for sure. Like I don’t have to I don’t have to abide by any cultural norms of tact. You know, like it felt really great. But.
08:29
Yeah, but then I just realized like, no, sorry, I was just being an asshole about it. was taking it to the nth degree and everything needs to be in balance with other things. You can say truth and honesty are your biggest tenants of life and you can strive for the absolute excellence of that, 100%. But you also have to keep all of these other things aligned as well while you’re doing that. Anything farther on the far ends of any sort of spectrum, whether that’s…
08:57
on the left side or the far, know, whatever it may be, everything is a spectrum. And if you take it way too far and out of context in isolation, it can become toxic. It really can. One of the things I try to do on the show is have these conversations where we break up these big, big pieces, turn them much larger. Like we just explode them, but then also pull them back to smaller pieces without being like, here’s two or three things for you to take away for the week and just chill out these.
09:24
But in all reality, there are certain pieces of that that even in the balance can be really difficult if there are other things that are off balance. If you are triggered by certain things that happened, you can then sometimes get stuck in those triggers. I joke with people on the show pretty fucking often at this point. The more self-aware you become, the more fucking self-aware you become. And the more crazy making it can be while you go through the healing of that stuff because you can’t not see those things.
09:53
And think about what you deal with as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, somebody managing other people, managing yourself. You said you’re married. I don’t know if you have any children, but there’s like all these things. And sometimes people can say, but you don’t understand because boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. They make this major list. Other people will use that and say, yes, it’s because of these things that I have to do these other things. And therefore others will still go,
10:23
but I then get to and it’s all our perspective with doing it. So your perspective came from something that happened years and years and years ago. That’s why you put your foot so far into the ground and almost into people’s asses about just truth and honesty. But when we sit back and think about that a little bit, let’s break that down. Like what, what is it about what you’ve gone through and what you’ve seen? Like, why do you actually care what other people think to be able to then put it your own context? It’s curiosity.
10:53
For me, at the end of the day, it’s curiosity. Why do you think that? That’s the biggest question that anybody can ask. Cool, you believe that about me? Great, what about me makes you believe that? And it’s just curiosity over, and you say that you’re judgmental, like don’t get me wrong, I’m judgmental too. But a lot of my judgment comes from this place of like, well, okay, why would they believe something like that?
11:23
And then it allows me to still empathize with them while still being judgmental and being like, well, you can still be wrong regardless of your history, you know, or you could be cruel or not thinking about something else when you probably should be thinking about something else. And you’re like in the weeds of something here. And you’re really thinking about the reason why the thing should be this is because of all of these other things. But then see, you forgot perspective, see the forest through the trees. And so if I can understand from where you’re where you’re coming from.
11:53
If I get it, if I can get into that, be curious, not judgmental, right? That is something I always try to remind myself. And it is a motto that I like to live by, be curious, not judgmental. I try my best, granted judgment still comes, you know? Well, it’s also a fine line and judgment can have a negative connotation to it, where even judging something, you’re just judging it based on what you know, the information you have, et cetera. It’s what you then do with it.
12:21
you know, if we can get real shitty with it. I know there are times where I get shitty, like it’s easy for me to talk about people driving on the road, because there are certain times you’re like, I don’t even know if you have a license. I don’t know. Are you driving from the passenger seat? Like what the fuck are you doing? But part of me is judging of like, is it safe for me to get past your dumb ass? Is it safe for me to do whatever? And I think there are things that happen within us that are almost mechanical that we’re unaware of.
12:50
Even breathing. Like everybody knows that you’re breathing and then when you actually concentrate on your breathing, you’re like, oh, I’m concentrating on it. We don’t have to think about that. There are other things that happen that we don’t think about because subconscious is there just to keep us fucking safe. And something happened back in the day or back when we were a little kid or something like that. So for you growing up, were there experiences that you had where you were like, man, this is one of those experiences that like rocked my world and changed me. Like that was one of them where your friend was like,
13:19
You’re being an asshole, other people are gonna leave you and stop. Somebody could have taken that, been like, yeah, my buddy Jimmy told me not to be a dick anymore and then everything was cool. And you took that as a critical moment where you’re like, oh, I should do something with it. Were there any others that really stand out? I think my dad was really, really great at teaching us these kind of like critical thinking skills kind of thing, or just understanding context or being creative.
13:47
But there’s two in particular that I’d love to share. And I’m curious what you think about them. Because I think you’d love them. Number one, um when we were like maybe, God, I was like maybe eight or something like that, eight or nine, I was bored. It was like summer break or something, and I was bored. And I was like, Dad, I’m bored. What can I do? uh And he’s like, oh, OK, great. One second. Hold on. Give me a second. And he leaves. And then he comes back with a mop and a bucket.
14:16
And he says, do you know what would be really, really fun? If you mopped the kitchen floor. You know it’s something to do, it’s effective. is, you know, what do you think? Like, do you want to mop the floor? That’s what I got for you. If you want to do that, go for it, please. Otherwise, find something to do. And I was like, that’s actually, that’s great. know, like, touche. You want me to mop the floor? I’m not gonna mop the floor.
14:41
But I will find a way to entertain myself. And ever since then, I don’t think I’ve ever been bored. I’ve always been able to entertain myself. And the other kind of critical, that was such a great thing that he did when we were younger, we did this kind of series of dinners where we did caveman dinners, which were, just made a
15:11
big, big thing of pasta, okay? Pasta and some meat sauce or something like that. And he had a big old butcher block table that we always ate dinner around. So he put a big old tarp, plastic tarp down on the table and onto the floor, kind of drooping down onto the floor. And he got us into our underwear, me and my sister, and we were very young, and he just slopped this big old pot of pasta on the butcher block table in the tarp and he said,
15:41
Go to town. You’re gonna eat with your hands. You’re gonna get dirty and it’s gonna be a lot of fun. We’re calling this caveman dinner, okay? Go wild. And we had a great time. Now the next night, he put us in our fanciest clothes and we sat down for a nine course meal. And he gave us all of the directions on all the silverware, right? And all the different plates and how we do it. And we had to sit there and be proper.
16:09
and have our napkins in our lap and our combed hair and use the silverware properly, right? And so I think it’s one of those things of like balance and context, balance and context, right? You can have the caveman dinner, great, but understand the context of when you need to actually sit straight and have a towel on your lap and eat with the proper silverware. Like you gotta know both those contexts and everything in between to live a happy and healthy life in our society, in my opinion. And so,
16:38
That was one of those things that he was really good at, giving us context and freedom and play, through play and freedom. While still also controlling the situation. Yes, In a beautiful way. Yeah. And educating. Think about what you do now. You have a music education company where you’re teaching people how to play music in a fun way. I wonder who in your life would have led you to do any of that.
17:07
It’s true. 100 % my father. Yeah. And well, think about like, even as you talk about, you know, I’m bored. I remember saying to my dad, dad, I’m bored. He was like, get the fuck outside, go do something. Go do this, go do that. And he would make up all these things that were really exciting to him. And I am not the mechanical engineer type or the one who wants to go out and lift heavy things and like remove shit from people’s backyards or whatever.
17:35
I wanted to go play music or create art or something like that. And there was a disconnect there. There were times where my mom or my stepmom or even my dad at times would go, well, why don’t you go draw or something? I’d be like, yeah, cool, why not? I could have thought of that, but whatever. Like, they gave me a good idea. I’d go do it as a little kid. Or like finger pain or something. But being able to understand context, understanding how people best learn, understanding about those people does come from curiosity, I appreciate that you look at it and go, well, why do you think that way?
18:05
Or why do you look at it that way? I think there’s also much deeper levels that we can get to with that. Like you’re not just curious. I’m assuming this, but I’m also, think we’re of the same elk. Where it’s not just basic curiosity to be curious. There’s a reason. Like we want to understand, like, why do you think like that? How did you get there? Who led this thing to you? How does that make sense in my head? Why does that not make sense in my head? Like what is, the fuck did we do with this information?
18:33
It’s not just the curiosity of it. I mean, it’s really just like, it’s curiosity. I think it’s just, one of those people that is just a student of humanity. I’ve always been curious about human behavior and the motivations behind it. And it’s because I grew up as an actor. was what the thing that I did after college for seven years and…
18:56
and now I’ve pivoted into a career that I really, really love, the co-founder of this music education app that’s basically built on the way that I’ve taught myself how to play piano. And now I’m a professional pianist and I’m doing the app during the day. And you’re like, oh, what a weird life. But I still think that my curiosity comes from being a student of humanity because I was an actor. And you have to get really deep into people’s motivations.
19:24
when you are trying to replicate them in a realistic way. And it’s for outside in and inside out. It’s what are the institutions around them that make them feel and think that way? And do those themes tie into whatever piece that you’re performing in? But it’s also inside out. It is what about their childhood? What about their life? What about their perspective that has really made them behave this way? And so it’s always just been a fascination of mine. Why do people act the way that they act?
19:53
I love that your level of curiosity is at, let’s say a 10 and other people may just be slightly curious. But even if we all just take that a little bit and say, well, how can I be a little bit more curious, little less judgmental, but understand why I’m curious about this thing. Somebody says anything and I go, well, what is it? It’s not just the curiosity or even the answer back. It’s, oh, I really want to know because of whatever it is for each person. So for those people that are
20:21
on their path towards self mastery and along with curiosity, just everything else you’ve been through, what’s your advice for those people? The one thing in my opinion that would turn the tides of humanity and make people more empathetic and connected to every person on this earth, because we’re going to kill ourselves otherwise, that we need to come together as a species and tackle our world’s issues together. Climate change, economic justice, like so many things are global these days.
20:51
And it’s because there are almost 10 billion people on this earth. are so just, and we are a part of the earth. We need to shepherd it to the correct place and we need to be in service of the earth to really let our species just grow and evolve the way it probably should, you know? So with that comes a deep amount of empathy that we need to have for every human on this earth, regardless of culture, race, religion. It is one of those things I need to feel connected.
21:21
to somebody that lives on literally the other side of the earth. And how are we going to do that? It’s through curiosity. What makes you you? Describe it to me, show me. Show me your world. I’m so curious. so, be curious, not judgmental. Granted, judgment does inevitably come. I look, I judge people all fucking day. But it’s also one of those things of like, well, if I really want to know and care,
21:51
Get to the heart of who they are and their behavior and you’ll allow connection to just flourish. And for people that are naturally sort of judgmental or really hyper curious, I think the judgment comes from the bias or a situation that happened to us or just a deep, I don’t understand why you’re doing such a thing. Like I’ve joked to people before, I’ve said, I don’t understand why they’re doing it. I believe myself to be an intellectual and I thought a different way. So why the fuck are you doing it that way?
22:20
And some of it just has a little bit more air of a judgment to it, where it’s like a deeper curiosity. It’s a spectrum, as you put it. Everything’s a spectrum. Understanding ourselves and what we’re looking at, what we want, what we’re trying to do, and the reasons why we do those things, it’s also part of the balance, and we have to take it bit by bit. So man, I appreciate you being on today. It’s been great talking with you. I’m sure this is not the last time we’re gonna talk.
22:48
ah And before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? Yeah, just go to my website musflow.ai. If you want to learn how to play piano in a different way, maybe traditional lessons didn’t work for you. We teach with sight reading first. It’s the act of reading music at first sight. We teach the fundamentals through that, through that skill, through that lens, let you master it without any repetition.
23:14
It’s always new music that is being generated for you at a very specific level and then you beat that level and then songs get unlocked after that. So we’re incorporating technology in and flow state and sight reading and gamification. We’re really bringing it all together into this one new methodology of teaching an instrument and eh it’s fundamentally different and it engages you in a much more holistic sort of way. So if you’re interested in that go to museflow.ai
23:41
Shoot me an email, info at museflow.ai and don’t put that in the show notes, just like, know, it’s for the people who are listening. Yeah, like we would love to hear what you think. I’d love to give your audience a coupon code if they want it. Let’s call it mindset, mindset 50. Anybody who uses it 50 % off for life. Look, we’re still growing. We’re still adding new features as we go. We’re not finished at all. We’re still expanding.
24:09
our accessibility. We’ve got iPad, we’ve got Android tablet, but we’re building it out for phones and any desktop app. so we’re slowly but surely growing this. We’re adding new instruments, uh adding new parts of the app. And if you want to get in that kind of on the ground floor, we just hit a really great marker. are now being able, we can pair overhead with subscriptions. And so the engine is going and it’s rolling and people aren’t churning. It’s like,
24:38
It’s actually doing it and we’re getting incredible feedback from our users. so that being said, we’re still very new. So I’d love to give your audience 50 % off for life if they want it. So it’s mindset 50. It’s great for anybody who is also just, if you’re really, really good, but maybe your sight reading is terrible. There’s a lot of professional pianists that are very good at just like the songs that they know. They have 700 songs and they’re really good at them. A lot of classical musicians are out there that do that, but they’re not.
25:07
good at sight reading. And so they use our app to get better at sight reading. So yeah, it’s good for everybody. It’s good for young people. It’s good for old people. It’s good for new people. It’s good for people that have been doing this for years. Awesome, man. I appreciate that. And I appreciate you being on. Thank you so much for your time today. Vice versa. Thank you,
https://youtu.be/e_uEip0lA6g