Amelia and Rudy join Raul Espejo, one of the top members of  the Cybersyn project in Allende's Chile, the founder of Syncho Research  and the president of the World Organization of Systems and Cybernetics  for a conversation. We discuss Raul's experiences, his current projects,  and what he thinks socialists should learn about Cybernetics in today's  world, especially around the concept of variety.