The Dave Pelz you see in 2017 isn’t all that different from the Dave Pelz you would have seen in 1957.

The golf fanatic was then playing on scholarship at Indiana University, and competing against Jack Nicklaus, no less, so to see where he is today—as a world renowned short game instructor—comes without surprise. The astonishing part is how he got there, because shortly after enrolling at Indiana, and losing to Nicklaus on a number of occasions, he realized he wasn’t Tour ready.

His ascension to the top of the short game world—which includes advising Phil Mickelson, one of the greatest short game players of all-time—begins at NASA, and has to do mainly with physics, his major at IU. As you can tell by listening, he’s pretty good at telling the story.

Topics include:

2:25 — Playing junior/college golf against Jack Nicklaus

7:30 — How a college golfer ended up working at NASA

11:10 — His introduction of the 60-degree wedge on Tour

21:45 — Phil Mickelson’s greatest short game shot

25:20 — His annual work with Mickelson

31:50 — His new green-reading project