Dear Corner Office

Okay, so Laurel, can you share with everybody watching and listening a bit about your experience in HR? Because I really love what you've done?

Yeah, well, you know, I always like to start by telling people, I'm not your traditional HR person. I consider myself a mutt, right? I started out in accounting in high tech. And then I did some auditing, I got my MBA and operations, international business, you know, went overseas to fit that. And then got into consulting around risk management. But in everything that I did, I was always a big part of hiring people, coaching people engaging with people, there was just something about that development and training that I was always doing. And, and then I was at an organization doing risk management in southeast Indiana. And I realized, you know, they really are not ready, they're not ready for what we need to do. And they're paying me a really nice salary to just kind of sit and do slides. And I'm just not gonna do that anymore. So let's start thinking about something else. And I was actually involved at that time with all of the executives, it was a company that happened to have three divisions. So I was at the corporate headquarters. And so I was involved with all of the executives and the Board of Director every month because of my role. And one of the heads of HR for the casket company, his name is John Dickey, I'm gonna call him out because he's an amazing individual. And especially because your last speaker was talking about sponsorship and Ally ship. And if you put that in the dictionary, you would see John Dickey, he actually was in a meeting with me, he was the head of HR for the casket company. Yes, I worked in caskets. And he said, Hey, have you ever thought about HR, I'm like, funny, you should ask. I was thinking about HR. And his position was, I'm looking for people who can think who are really good business people, because you can learn the HR stuff, because HR is not rocket science. And so I ended up going kind of the long way around to get into HR. However, my experience in accounting, my experience in auditing, my experience, and process design, my MBA, my consulting actually made me a really great HR person, because I can speak the language of business. And I think that's what's missing a lot of times in our HR field, and why, you know, why are our HR people having to call ourselves business partners, nobody else puts business partner in their title. And it's because most of the time as you think about the growth of the function of HR, it has been about the soft stuff, right? If you think people, it's the soft stuff. But really, HR is about helping an organization utilize the human capital asset to achieve the objectives of the organization. And that sounds really cold, but it's not about being impersonal, you can still be compassionate. But the reality is, if the company's not doing well, nobody has a job. So you have to be an HR person. Second, right? A business person first, and then you're able to bring in that compassion and all of that, that data science and, and all the love you have for people to be able to make tough decisions and do the right thing from an HR space.

I love it. I love it. Oh, so for those of you who are like I am so not an HR Laurel just taught you. It's okay to jump attracted to Yes. Matter of fact, just change complete stations, but you still in the radio business, it's okay. Right? What should what not it no matter what, it's transferable, you make you're going to grow from it. So I love that I really, really do and what I love about it, you learn to speak the language of business. And we've talked about the human aspect of, uh, you know, HR like, Okay, we know the human, I didn't want to deal with the data. Right. And we talked a bit about You came in for my county, like, I know these numbers, but these numbers are different.


Yeah. Yeah. You know, I So first, let me say this, I tend to be a fairly controversial HR person because you know, my team before they call these Laurel isms, right? And one of the things that I said is we are not the party planners, we don't plan parties. That's not what we do. Right? We, that's not what we do. And we don't own everything. And if we don't own it, you send it right back over to that manager to do the stuff, right. You are partnering with people, you're part of the business, but we don't own all the crap. That's not what we're here to do. And guess what, we don't own culture either. We are the keepers of culture, we are the ones who are purveyors of culture, who give organizations the tools that they need to design the culture that the leaders say they want, we are there to keep people honest about what they say, but we don't own that stuff. Right. So don't, don't take on all of that ownership and all that pressure of being the the thing for people, you know, I heard you mentioned with someone earlier, kind of the human back in human resources, that always makes me bristle a little bit. Because normally when they say that, what they're saying is we want more parties, you don't let us do what you want to do. I didn't really manage this person's performance. And now I want to get rid of them. And you won't let me right. So when you think about then translating that into how do you become an HR leader, or an HR person, or a leader who has to deal with people, one of the ways to shore a lot of that up so that you can continue to be compassionate, you can continue to connect, but you can stay focused on the business objectives is to understand data. And people analytics is different than business analytics. So there are a lot of people who will say, well, we can do that. We know the business stuff we can do the people analytics, it is different. When you're thinking about people analytics, not only are you looking at predictive, which is a big movement. Now how do we predict where people are going to go, how they're going to leave those kinds of things. But you're really looking at a whole idea of supply demand, internal and external, you're looking at movement up, down and sideways, you're looking at how it connects to the training you have given or not given. There's a whole different piece around people analytics that relates to all of the the measures around the tactical pieces, right? hiring, retaining turnover, where are we going, but there's also the pieces that give you insight into, you know, every time we go to this particular university, we may get two or three people but they only stay one year. What does that mean? Does that mean there's a misfit in our culture? Does that mean, we just can't keep them engaged? What does it really mean? Around the people side of this data, it is very different than business data. It's the same principles, but the things you look at and the insight you gather from people analytics, helps you make decisions around the human capital asset. I know people get really upset with that. Because it sounds like you're calling people, not people, but the human capital asset, and move that into something that is going to continue to drive revenue, going to continue to drive profit going to continue to drive your culture of a place that people want to be, because they understand how their stuff connects to where the company's trying to go. You engage them in a way that drives innovation. And you understand through the data, how you are building and moving leaders, because leadership is about behavior. It's not about position, because we all know a lot of people that are in really high positions who are really poor leaders. So you use that data from surveys from recruitment from Glassdoor and all those places that are informal, to form the landscape that you need to evaluate and gather insight from in order to take action that is focused on your ultimate objective. If you don't know what your ultimate objective is, how do you know who you need to have on your team? And all that comes down to gathering the insight through the information?

I think somebody said that was HR one on one in five minutes. I just earned a master's degree and have a PhD for HR and people i don't i don't know maybe that's just me. But um, but this is this is Dr. Pearson. So she already has that PhD. So maybe it is obviously just me. So she will come
in. I'm getting one.

I love it. I love it. So what you have given a whole story, or let's say the framework, somewhat of people analytics, then what you can do with it. But let's take a step back to really talk about why do origami as Asians you steer away from it too often? And then why they should lean more towards it? And to what extent?

Man, that is a fantastic question. And I will say, the number one foundational piece that makes people run away from it is fear. And it's fear because of that DNI space, right? When you think about analytics, you think about data. When you think about data around people, you think about demographics, when you think about demographics, you think about quotas. And so people quickly their mind quickly makes that transition to if I measure it, then that means I'm doing a quota. If I measure it, then how come this x person gets it, and I don't get it, if I'm starting to measure it, that means I have to be accountable for it, and accountable not only for my action, but even more important, I'm accountable for the impact of the action that I'm taking whether or not those consequences were intended, right. So no matter what your intent is, you're always, always responsible for the impact of the actions that you took. And so when you start talking people data, one, HR leaders, you have to make sure you got the right people on your team, because there is information and data that comes into HR that is highly sensitive, that can ruin not only people's careers, but can ruin people's lives. So if you can't be trusted, you can't be in HR, you couldn't be on my team, if I couldn't trust you with information, right? Because all of that stuff runs through HR. So you have to understand the sensitivity of the information that you have. But you also have to understand that what you're looking for is insight in order to inform action. So yes, there are compliance issues for which you have to understand demographics. And you have to have the count, and you've got this many of this thing in this role. But the meat of that is, but what are you doing about it? Right? So I'll give you a prime example. I had was challenged in my role to say, Wait, you know, we don't have equity, we don't have pay equity. I'm like we do have pay equity? No, we don't. How do we know? Like, because we did the data, right? We do have pay equity. It's a bit here's the thing, when you are doing data and people analytics, you cannot have knee jerk reactions. You can't go with the emotional response, do we have a pay equity issue, and pay equity is real. So don't get me wrong, pay equity is real. When we went back and looked at our information, it's like, you know what, there were a few spots where it looked like we were not paying, quote unquote, equitably. But there's a very big difference in a systemic problem of paying people in equitably. And a historic change of people moving across an organization and PE getting off kilter, those are different. One has intent, the other is about time and not paying attention. And so when we looked at our overall data that happened to be around salaries, what we're able to see is no, you know, on a whole, we are actually pretty equitable. And when we have issues, we make a concerted effort to be sure we're getting people in the pay range, that we're making sure we're paying attention to how we're doing it, when we had some that were very, really off. Again, data is just the facts, the power is in the insight through the information, we were able to go back and look and say, You know what this person is way off what's going on? Well, you know what they started off 20 years ago as a switchboard operator. So as we move them up, and they've moved to different roles, we didn't necessarily pay attention to the skills that they've gotten in order to ensure that we were moving their pay as well. So please understand people that are doing people analytics and data analytics, especially around pay, I need you to take the emotion and set that aside. Because emotion is different than compassion. And you can be passionate about equity. But this is about business. And so you want to make sure that your understanding what is the data actually telling you about the actions that you've been taking, and the impact of that action. The other piece around that people data is really going back and saying, you know, if we have some issues around leadership and representation in leadership, what is the real reason for that? Is that an internal supply? Is that how we're interviewing? Is that the questions that we're asking, or is that where we're going to find people? And when you start digging deeper into those questions, that's when you start hearing the cultural challenges of diversifying an organization? Well, we can't go there. Well, we don't hire them. Well, you know, the only people we need to hire really are folks who have done this thing using this thing in this situation. Well, all those people already work for us, you're not going to find them. And by the way, do you really need them? Or do you need people who really think well and understand processes and flows because you're going to train them on all the stuff that's unique to you anyway, so by having the data and seeing the impact of the data, it enables you to start asking really deep, hard questions about why When you find out why you can determine a what that makes an impact on the ultimate outcome you're trying to achieve. Hopefully that makes sense.

It does. And I love how you bought it back again to something we talked about, which is why,
why? Yeah, yeah. That's my favorite question. Why? Five why's?

Yeah, I love I love that technique, cuz you're going to get to the root cause real quick. Yes. Um, and that's why I love kids, everybody. This three year old here keeps asking me why. But you know what, that three year old start? Yeah, you have kids? And you said, That's dumb. Why don't adults do that? They ask why? Yes. It's like, Wait, that is dumb. So I encourage you to if you don't know what the five why method is Google it. It is a great methodology for you to go through sometimes yourself. To figure out how to how to stop do i Why am I doing this? Why? Yeah, so Okay. So we've looked at impact of actions in your organization, the data alone, the motion alone is not where you need to be. Right? You have to find that space in between to really understand what's going on in organization. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.
You know, I think the challenge that people have, right, so especially if you're in the HR space, or if you're a woman, and particularly a woman of color, in corporate America, or even really big nonprofits, emotion, right can be seen not as passionate, but either as aggression, or you're too emotional. And when you're in a business setting, it doesn't mean you don't get to show up as you it doesn't mean you need to cut it off. Because there's a generation of women that also decided they had to, quote unquote, be like a man right to be successful. It doesn't mean you have to be unemotional. But what it means is you have to really understand your audience. And if the point is to be heard, how do you recognize the environment that you're in, communicate in a way that you can be heard in that environment, sometimes that means modification of behaviors, sometimes that means assimilation in order to be heard, but you do what you have to do until you can do what you want to do. Nothing that's going to make you unsafe, nothing that's going to be non compliant. And if you're unsafe, you need to get out. But there are certain periods of time where I need you, especially in HR, where people already think we don't think and we already think we don't know anything about numbers, I need you to move the motion and put it aside, be compassionate, but speak the language of the business so that they can hear you and hear the impact of the actions they're taking. So that you can then begin to influence new actions that actually make systemic sustainable change in the things that the data are telling you are incorrect, whether that's how you hire issues with turnover, issues with culture that drives certain underrepresented people to be leaving, right at that mid management level, whatever the issue is, if you're leading with emotion, not only are you not able to communicate, you're not able to hear. And if you're emotional, you're not listening, you're not listening actively, because you need to understand what people are saying, but also hear what they're not saying. So that you can address the issue at hand. And emotion keeps you from being able to be focused, and detailed, and really understanding where you need to come. And if you can do that you can use the data as a tool. You don't have to use it as a weapon, right? You can use it as a tool to impact systemic change within your organization to see sustainable, you know, improvement in those goals you're trying to achieve.


Oh, okay. I want you to I want you to pause for a manager's free. So I didn't realize holding my breath. I was like, oh, okay, so let's take a step. And because we only have a few minutes left, like this went way quicker. They all go quicker than I ever realized, right? We're talking to HR leaders, and you're like, Okay, how do I build this team? To help me do this work?


Yeah. Okay, one you have to look to home first. Are you a business person? First, are you an HR person? If you can't speak the language of business, it doesn't matter what you want to do where your heart is, no one's going to hear you. You're going to be the party planners. You're going to be simply relegated to just make sure the ER G's are working, make sure we do the thing, right that the pretty thing, even from a DN, D and Eyespace if you don't understand the strategy of the business and how D and I actually impacts the overall outcome and the overall profitability and innovation they're trying to get too, it just becomes a check the box exercise that people can throw all kinds of darts at. So you, as the leader, as an HR leader have to be a business person. First, you need to know which levers to pull that cause which outcomes first. Then when you hire people, you want to make sure you're hiring HR professionals who do understand that balance between data and compassion. It is different for different parts of the organization, you want to have really great, extroverted, wonderful people who are doing your consulting, who know how to sell it, but are also really honest about the organization who have an intestinal fortitude, and a courage to say, here is our culture, here are the things we're working on here, the things we still need to work on. But we really need people who can help us get there and mean that right? Then you need business partners who can actually hold the company accountable for what they say they want to do, who can speak truth to power, you cannot be in HR if you don't have courage. And I don't mean being ugly. I mean, having courage because you don't have to be unkind, right? To be direct, it is not necessary to be nasty. To be direct. It is also not unkind, to be clear. So if you are looking to build your HR organization, start with you as the leader, how connected are you to the business? How well do you understand the business? How well are you connected to the HR leader, or the other leaders in the organization to know where the business is trying to go? And how you can get them there? How do you then help your team understand that very few things are absolutely yes or absolutely no, they're usually compliance related. Other than that, it's a question of, Hmm, let me know where you're trying to go. Because I can probably figure out a way to help us get there, you're able to challenge you're able to challenge in a way that's forward moving, and you're able to challenge with the foundation of understanding the business and because you've understood the business, and you can have just as deep a conversation about the customer about the profit, about the processes that are happening in the organization as anyone else in the business that builds the trust that you understand, so that you now have a platform upon which to talk about the more people related or softer things, but you have to be a business person first. And you have to be curious. I learned what I learned. And I was able to ask the questions that I asked. And I was able to build a reputation that I built. Because I was curious about the organization. I want to know how it works. I want to know how we make our chemicals. I wanted to work overnight. And I'm a morning person, not a night person. I worked nights at my plant because I wanted to know what those guys were going through on rotating shifts. I wanted to know what they had to say, when everybody else wasn't around. I wanted to build a relationship with them. That said, I am not always going to tell you Yes, but I am always going to tell you the truth. You can ask me absolutely anything. And I will answer as long as it's not about an individual or about somebody else's performance. But if I don't know, I will tell you I don't know. And I find that and I'll find out. If I can't tell you, I will actually tell you, I can't tell you and I'll tell you why. So it's about establishing as a leader, a level of honesty, a level forthrightness, a level of transparency in the realm of HR that gives you the platform and the trust to be able to make changes that are difficult for people to make. Everything you do in HR is related to people, every leader, every person who is building a team, because again, leadership is about behavior, not position. It's about people. And so the data is the facts. The Insight gives you the information to make systemic change that impacts people. And if you don't get that, as a leader, you're not going to be able to find people who are going to get that on your team. And you're going to be relegated to planning the parties, you're going to be relegated to just doing the march and doing the banners and doing the events. And while there may be people on your team who love to do that, who understand the birthdays that when me right but I had people who loved it, you're not really going to become a key piece of the business you're just going to be that call center that they just relegate to the side and you won't be able to be in the detailed conversations and you get caught flat footed and they just call you when they're trying to fix it. So be a business leader first that happens to have especially in human resources and how to magnify the importance and the innovation of the human capital asset for the business. And if you can do that you will find people who work for you who will be able to do it to
Laurel see I think we need it like three hours 35 minutes just blew by fast. Yeah. So it is but it's always when the conversations good. It's so so many tactics and things HR leaders have to own it have to do and then there are things that outside of that to have to work as well. Um, yeah, somebody I want to share this comment. Laurel, you really frame the gaps between HR teams and the rest of the organization. Named the gaps and how to get HR to become real partners to the rest of the organization. Thank you.

Thank you Zoe for listening. Yeah, it's not personal to me, guys. It can't be emotional. It can't be personal doesn't mean you don't take things personally. But it's not. It's not personal. It's business. And if you focus on the business first, all the other stuff will come. I promise. I promise it will.

Absolutely. So how can people connect with you, Laurel?


So the best thing I would love people to go and listen to download my podcast so you can get it on my website. LAUREL Rutledge comm slash podcasts. I'm also on all the platforms. They're really quick short bytes 10 to 15 minutes. And I've got a big goal of trying to get to 17,000 downloads by the end of the year. So please like, share, download, if there's something you want me to talk about soon, that too. It's all about career and leadership. So we'd love to have you do that. I'm also on all the platforms. So you can find me on Instagram. You can find me on Facebook, LinkedIn, on Facebook and Instagram, it's Laurel K, Rutledge, or the Rutledge perspective.


And I love this because Laurel, you wrapped up I don't know if you caught the discussion that I was having with Marissa talking about leaders in the workplace like nah, y'all management. I can't do that. And and you so broke down, what does that look like? And that was really, really phenomenal. For me. Thanks. So all right. Thank you so much. Laurel. Be sure to check out her pocket if you love what she was talking about. I know you are like, Wait, hold on. Don't move. Don't move yet. It will get I'm trying to get to the website. Right Laurel Rutledge, I'm pronouncing that all of the consonant. So Laurel rutledge.com forward slash podcast. Go to our website is the quickest way to find her or you can Google in Laurel K. Rutledge. Thank you so much Laurel.

Thank you for having me. This has been lovely I really appreciate it.


You're very welcome. Everybody say whoa, okay, y'all I cannot believe we're in the final hour this them first three hours just flew by. I'm like the sun is like I'm awake. Now the sun the even like the sun out like the sun ready to get on like sun you always have the shot and you always have the shot is that maybe in Pittsburgh during the winter time. So we are going to do our last sponsor for the virtual Summit. I want to introduce you to this great Di Di consulting firm called Sun BrahMos founded by Casey Ada, Casey has a breadth of experience from working on Capitol Hill to being in the Peace Corps to even how about this having her own tech startup Chris, she helped reporters in other countries share what was going on, you know, reporters in certain countries get killed, right for sharing out certain information. She created a company specifically to help share this information is no longer around. But she was providing safety for these reporters to share information to share around the globe about what was going on in different countries. So she has done fantastic work. What she does now with some promise, though, is she helps organizations cultivate equity, inclusion and diversity in their in their leaders, right? training their leaders, helping their organizations understand where they are, and bring it in cultural competency as well. So if you are looking for someone to work with, I highly recommend you learn more at some brahmos.org It is a great organization. I've had fantastic time working with Casey over the last few years and I personally recommend this organization to you. And you like I don't know you either. I know. I know. But you get to know me today. It's gonna be better. I promise. I promise I promise

Next up is a great speaker named Marissa Lee, who's also an expert and authority in human resources. She is going to be sharing with us how she has used data in employee engagement. Because right before my internet dropped out, I was talking about employers shifting their employees lash in 2020. To their home. So working remote, and what did that look like in organizations? Like, how do we know they're working? How are they feeling? What are they doing? How do we make this better without being in the office? So she is going to come welcome Marissa, and join us to have that discussion about employee engagement. Hi, Marissa. You are on mute. Hold on, I got you. No, no. Let's try it again.

That's a good Oh, hi, how

are you? I'm making it work. Okay. So can you tell everyone a bit about your experience in HR being a leader? And we'll start there?
Absolutely. So hello to everyone. My name is Marissa Lee, and I am the founder and CEO of soul evolve, LLC, which is an HR consulting firm, and I specialize and decoding employee engagement for managers, and really being in the employee experience employee engagement space. But in addition to my business, I have been in HR over 10 years, like I have been in the healthcare industry, retail, building materials, coatings, chemicals, you name it, I've had a lot of HR experience in these different industries. And it's given me the opportunity to really learn a lot about people learn about business, and how they intersect when it comes to looking at engagement and building that strategy. And so, I'm really excited about the opportunity to dive a little bit deeper into, you know, my HR expertise, how that led me into engagement, and how I can continue to support you and give you some tips here today to consider as you look at your own engagement strategies.

So when we step back, and we look at what engagement look like in 2019, to 2020. What were some employers see in their employee engagement? Yeah, so

when it comes to engagement, there are some standard engagement factors that you will see then and that you will still see now. So things that come up like compensation, looking at being able to have flexibility, but it wasn't in the same way as it is now. And in 2020, you would see things like, more so people filling, Are they satisfied with the work that they they're doing? What types of benefits are things that the company are offering to them, so was pretty much I like to call those like the foundational engagement, tenants that you need to be able to address when it comes to any type of employee. But when 2020 happened, that pendulum swung, and there was a big emphasis around flexibility, purpose work, and really being able to make sure people felt like they belong or that they were looked being looked at as an individual, as opposed to just this. This one size fits all, I heard that us earlier one size fits all approach when it comes to engaging them. And just from a topic standpoint, when it comes to equity, really being able to look and see what is the intersectionality when it comes to engagement. Are you creating consistent experiences for all your employees? And how does that show up? How are you? How are you making sure you get insight into that? Because I can tell you right now without being intentional with that, more than likely you're missing the mark.

Absolutely, absolutely agree. So I jumped a little head because I'm excited about you talking about employee engagement, but out of HR overall, how did you end up focus and really looking at employee engagement especially as it relates number one to leaders. So let's just talk about employee engagement and then leaders. And then we can tie those two together.

Absolutely. So I wrote a book called Why I broke up with my company. So people look at HR, and they view HR as if they're not having an employee experience. And we are having an employee experience, I just So shout out to all the HR people out there. And I asked you all to show us some grace in regards to that. But throughout my career, I was having an employee experience. And from that, I started to get insight around, you know, the things that were going well, the things that weren't going well, why weren't they going well? How can that be improved by myself? How can that be improved by the leader. And so in going through my own journey, then I started, I moved away from the micro while just looking at myself, and started looking at the macro, while if I'm having these experiences, other people are also having these experiences, how can I assist them with improving the experience and getting better at that. And so that helped me hone in on really leveraging love relationships, and comparing it to working relationships, to help that resonate with people to show that how much energy you put into this relationship is going to determine how well it works. And you're always creating experiences for people, are you creating the right ones. And in the process of doing that, that's where I saw how leadership is really an activator for engagement, the leader can really drive engagement in the positive direction, or they can be poor leaders in sending in the other direction. And so there is a lot of power that leaders have in being able to keep a workforce engaged and focus on the things that they need to accomplish for the organization.

Yeah, those good leaders will keep you engaged, those not so good leaders will drive people out the door or to another team or department or division or country, but they're gonna go somewhere else somewhere. So I love how you bridge those two, because it's really important that understanding employee engagement is tied to leadership. And it's not like, oh, well, they're, they're not engaged. I'm not responsible for them doing their job. It's like, well, let's talk about that. Right? You have to own what that means to be a leader. And this is this is the thing I wrote a few years ago, many years, not that many years, less than two years ago, when I was still in corporate. They sent out a an employee survey. And they said, What do you think about your leadership team? I said, number one, you can't tell me they're my leaders. Because I may not follow them. I just work here. Right? The person I call my leader does not have a C suite title, or a VP title, right? And I think I always push back on that, like you mean your management team. Because oftentimes, you're a lot of leaders aren't accessible, the higher up they go, the they're not accessible to people. And I think if you're a true leader, you're accessible to people, I don't mean to the point we're in, there was a line outside your door. But it means that if somebody calls, whether it's the sake of mourning, or to say they're having an issue, you're responsive to that. Right, right. And oftentimes, like you're in the wrong place, and I think it, I have a whole other definition on take it when it comes to management and the terms leadership in the workplace, it needs to be earned. And it's not given and even telling me you're my leader, like, Oh, I'm not following y'all to the bathroom. And I have. So that, you know,
I don't believe fully agree with you on that. Like when I'm sharing tips around engagement, I will say Attention managers. And so I've had people talk to me about well, why do you say managers? Why don't you just call them leaders, everyone? Everyone isn't a leader? I agree with you. I definitely think that there's a distinction between management and leaders, you manage the process, you read people, and everybody hasn't made that transition to fully leading people they are trying to use management to to do the act of what a leader is supposed to do. And without that clarity and distinction. Those are some of the challenges and pitfalls organizations miss, and it manifests in the engagement of their employees. So something that's simple and subtle is really getting clear on the definition of what a leader is supposed to be doing. Is is paramount to drive in the engagement?

Absolutely. So I think you answered this, but I'm asking anyway. What's the difference about your approach to employee engagement? Then what others are doing in the space right now?

Yeah, so a couple of things, I would say one, a lot of a lot of different companies are looking at kind of the one size fits all, and not really doing the comprehensive look at engagement. So where I see my organization having an advantage, it's really helping organizations get clarity, to transition from the reality to their aspirational state, because a lot of times organizations look at engagement, they think they're in the aspirational state, where the reality says something completely different. So being able to help them understand what that is what that means. And then helping them go deeper. Because at times when it comes to engagement, people can remain very surface with that, you can something as simple for example, like, if you asked your employees, you know, did you review it, the survey feedback, you may get five different responses based on how those individuals looked at the question and how they process it. One person may say, I got the feedback, the other person may say, I got the feedback, but you didn't do any action with it. So I'm going to ding you here. Other person may say, I didn't get it because I was in a different groups, there are a lot of different responses that can come with that. And without doing the extra work of going below the surface, you don't really get to that information. So that's the operation side of me really looking for the root cause versus the cookie cutter approach of here's engagement, here's the things that you can look to work on. The other piece is really looking at the intersectionality part of engagement. As I mentioned earlier, if you are not leaning in, in that space, and if you think that everybody's experience is the same, I'm going to tell you now it's not. So you need to take the time to really review and see where are those differences? What are those nuances? And how can you improve that because it's likely to show up in your results, or it's not showing up in your results, you are getting good engagement results. But it's you're not seeing the impact in your business results, you're not seeing the impact and productivity, you're not seeing impact in these other areas. And that is informing you that even though you may have great results, there's something else that's amiss, that you have to really dig deeper and get an understanding about.
Absolutely. So Whoo, you got to my favorites spot. Right, right, we got enough time to dig into this, okay. Because I always like to get the tactical stuff. You talked about data. And you talked about intersectionality. And you talked about managers, and I'm gonna put up this quote, real quickly, very quickly, Haley said, I just saw a quote stating, become the kind of leader that people will follow voluntarily, even if you have no title or position. And that's that that's my challenge. Like that's, that's what that's all I'm saying. So I'm gonna go back to where we are, where we're really talking about data intersectionality, and looking at what's going on at those levels. And the reason I talk about this is organization like well as a whole or a majority, we're doing well. When you're looking at an equitable workplaces, there is no majority, you really have to look to see who and why it's not part of that. And and I want to get into that that intersectionality part as you utilize data, what were the things that you went through in that in that lens, and the data you're looking at to try to understand what the what, what type of engagement strategy to create and tactics to include in order to improve engagement?

Yeah, so I look at it in a couple of ways. First, you have to have like the quantitative data and the qualitative piece. So once you're getting the Insight if you have a survey versus if you get use employee engagement surveys or not, you can leverage that as a starting point to get some insight as to where you need to look to begin to have conversations, but there are other pieces to the engagement story. So if you are not looking at turnover in If you're not looking at employee complaints, if you are not looking at discretionary effort, and when I say discretionary efforts, that's not when, you know, employees are working long hours, because they got to get the work done, it's more so they are volunteering their time, they are happy to give their time to do extra things in the workplace or take on additional responsibilities as they go forward. And so those are different pieces that you have to first start with the the quantitative part, but then there's the piece of you have to have some conversation, the data means nothing without the insight to what that actually needs. So you may have a certain number in these areas. But if you're not doing stay interviews, you're not doing exit interviews, if you are not having focus groups around your engagement with different populations, and splitting up to get insight around that you're missing the mark there. So for example, it may be with different people of color that you are looking at having those conversations with, it could be different band levels, or great levels that you have in your workplace that you may have a higher level of engagement at the top of the organization. But as you continue to go get go deeper and cascade through the organization that shifts. And so where does that shift, and when it does shift, why, and really look to understand that as you go forward. And that helps you start to get more insight on things that you need to do that's tailored to specific groups, as opposed to this one size fits all engagement approach.

I absolutely love it. Thank you so much for digging in. And actually like telling, hey, go go have a focus group. But who we have to talk to the people? Yes, we have to talk. Yeah, you're gonna have to do that. We really appreciate you doing that. Oh, okay. So putting the human back in Human Resources is what I love to say about your approach. In doing that, because too often we're trying to automate, we're trying to separate. And it's really important to get back to that human side, even though we're looking at data is a people problem that has to be solved by people, data is just a part or tool to help us do that. And I love how you brought that aspect in here. Now, I just want to make sure we don't have any no questions. But I of course I do. Now, as you're looking at the data, what how do you know if something isn't success? Maybe that's an anomaly. When you're getting the results back in after after you start working through your strategy?
Yes. So the first part is you have to get clarity. And you have to define what is your engagement story. So that helps you with the baseline of what you're looking what you currently have. And it needs to be connected with the strategy. So as you are engaging your people, what is it? How do you see that manifesting in the workplace, so then that helps you kind of hone in on the the different KPIs, you want to look to measure and align with your engagement strategy. So you get your baseline, and then you start to manage that. But then it's like, What trends are you seeing what different engagement factors you need to introduce? Those are, once you have the story, then that helps you determine how you measure it, and align that success to organization success. And a lot of times what happens is the engagement strategy is separate from business strategy. It's one in the same, you it's just a component of that business strategy. So if you are looking at it different, like, oh, we need to work on this thing. No, it needs to be connected with what you are trying to achieve. What is your mission? What is the purpose? And how are you bringing that alive for your people? And how are you engaging them in the process? And a part of engaging them is it's not there's reciprocity. You have to remember that, yes, you know, there people are performing the service and things like that, but there still needs to be reciprocity there. What are you giving him pouring into them so they are able to pour into your company and then be able to drive it the way you want to? So you are the employer of choice. You are the leader in the market. And when you don't invest there is no different from the business side. If you don't invest in growing your business if you don't invest in it. You know, in materials and products and expansions and things like that you may run the risk of falling behind the competition. So what's the difference within an employee? What's the difference in being able to engage them? So there are different aspects, even from a business side, if you think about it from that lens, if you take that, and put that over to the people side would help to be able to guide your engagement strategy in a different way.

Oh, thank you so much. For for just one to two last questions. I've never number one, to ask questions. Is that such a thing as it will be? For people that just getting started understanding where their employee engagement, what is that one thing they have to do?
The one thing they have to do is understand their story. A lot of people just go into engagement haphazardly, and you have to understand what is current state. So having that clarity of where you stand today, and how that connects with you being able to execute on your business initiatives.

I love it. I love it. Next. Okay, then the final last question. Can people connect with you?

That's a great question. So you can connect with me on LinkedIn, I am very active on LinkedIn. And I definitely would love you to give your feedback and comment and engage with me. I love having dialogues with people. And the posts that I put up I love connecting on their posts that they're putting them is really a community being a part of my LinkedIn family. So definitely make sure you connect with me, I will connect with you and engage in your content and vice versa.

Thank you so much, Marissa, for joining us today. Be sure you connect with her. You can also pick up her book and and I and I love why I broke up with my company. It's like, I don't know, sort of kind of feels like a lifetime movie, but not Queenie, like Tifa as maybe terace and how it's really gonna happen. So I just I don't know. But I think it's gonna be a lot of fun and might end up in New Orleans in Miami. Oh, no. I think I think I really really liked that. Um, I we do have one comment I want to share. I agree Marissa understand your organization's story. This will help take you from where you are to where you desire to go. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. Dr. Pearson, thank you so much for being here today. She'd been hanging out. She'd been running strong for like three hours. So we're glad she could remain here. So Marissa, everybody check her out. Be sure to check out her book. I will talk to you later. Thanks for joining today.

Thank you. Thank you for everybody that joined I look forward to connecting with you.

 All right. Bye bye.

So next up, we have faith Eatman. Yes, I'm really excited about having faith to join us, because faith has done some phenomenal work. And what is even more fantastic about what faith has done is oh, how do I say? Had it not had this happen? I don't know, pre 2020 It would have been a whole other story. You're even shaking your head. How are you today?

I'm good. Are you doing Michelle?

Absolutely fantastic. I'm excited about you being here. Because this is something that so many of us have, have have wanted to know, we wanted to know what the DEI data in the workplace, but I want you first to tell people a bit about yourself. Career wise when you do and then we'll get into your your, your work NTI in an employer.

So hi, everybody, I'm thinking evening. And by day, I mean cultural transformation for our IT department at a large academic medical center on the south side of Chicago. And then by night i Capehart for advancing black women in the workplace. So to do this, I leverage honest conversations, my process improvement experience and expertise and my lived experience to bring creative di solutions in business. So I want to talk specifically about one of those solutions that I'm most proud of. And that is leveraging our employee resource group, focused on helping women of color advanced to leadership positions, to create a formal sponsorship program for black women. And so in June of this year, our Employee Resource Group, which is named notice, launched its first cohort for formal sponsorship program to increase the representation of black women at the senior leadership level. So the program is very focused on creating excess visibility and psychological safety for black women. As I just want to, before we go into our conversation, Michelle just do a little bit of level setting on sponsorship and sponsorship programs. And so sponsorship programs are designed to foster meaningful one on one relationships among executive leaders and junior level leaders, which we've caught protegees as a part of our programs. And so when you talk about sponsorship, it's been called the great career accelerator, because sponsors are personally invested in their protege success. They leverage their own influence to advocate for their product, raise promotion, and ensure they're visible to key decision makers. So when you talk to many executives, they may not call it sponsorship, they might not refer to a sponsorship, but you ask them, like how did they get to where they are today, many of them will quickly identify one or several individuals at some point in their career, that took a chance on them that vouch for them to get a leadership opportunity, or to get access to senior level conversations and things like that, they took a chance on them and vouch for them. And that set them firmly on the path to executive leadership. And so really, like when you hear black women asking about and talking about wanting to advance to leadership, like that's what we want, we want to be recognized for the value that we bring to the organization, we want to be noticed. And so formal sponsorship program is one way to get black women the recognition and the access and visibility that they need in order to access these executive leadership positions.
Sharing that what I want to go into next is rework we're pro post, deploy. And I am getting feedback. Hold on one second, let me see if I have something turned on. I don't see anything. So okay, wait a stop. Okay. So we're post George Floyd. And you want to bring this page into your organization? What are your What what are you thinking? What do you think? Or what do you know and have seen an organization that really needed to be bought to an executive levels attention? Yeah,

I mean, so I'll just speak from like, my own experience. And you you hit it on the head, right. So I think many of us in the wake of George Floyd, we were sitting thinking like, okay, what can we do, right, like, I know, I need to do something. What can I do in And that was kind of my, I had the same response. And so when I started thinking about what I could do I know that like, protesting, like, that wasn't the thing that resonated with me. But I thought, like, let me leverage my strengths, right? So my background is in change management and process improvement. And I'm really good at understanding how systems work, I didn't find barriers and no other tools, right to break them down into improve culture. And so, you know, I wanted to take the tools that I use to impact a problem that impacted me personally, right. And that was my experience as a black woman in, in the workplace and in corporate like spaces. And so, you know, I read books, like Minda hearts book, right. And I started stalking people on LinkedIn that were talking about their experience in the workplace. And I'm like, Oh, my like, that's like my experience, too. And that's when I started to notice like, this is a system, this is something systemic, this is something that is happening in many different organizations, it didn't just happen to me like it's happening to other people. And this is something that we need to seriously address, a part of the work experience and experience that black women are having is due to a lack of representation at the leadership level. And so to me like that is something very important that I wanted to bring forward to my leadership to say that we need to improve the number of black women that are represented at the senior and executive leadership level, because it impacts the care that we provide to our patients as well as our community. So we know like, along this time with George floor, like, we're getting information related to different outcomes for COVID. based on race, right, it was a lot of data about black women, that were three times more likely to die from pregnancy related, causing. And so you know, those are things that resonate deeply with me as a black woman. And I feel that in this space of healthcare, one thing that we can do to help improve that to increase the number of black women leadership positions.

So you have this fantastic goal that you want to reach. What did you do next? You're like, Okay, this, this has to change. What do you what did you sit down and and figure out you needed? Or did you sit down and do a strategy? And what was included in that?
Yeah, I mean, so, again, like this, from my background, from change management and process improvement, I understand, like, how the process for problem solving. And so you know, where I wanted to start with with defining the problem. And so I'll just talk to you a little bit about that, like, this is what the problem is, there's a lack of black women represented at the senior leadership level. And this is a problem why, right? And this is why we need to do something now. And then once I do that, right, I'm I want to investigate, right? So I want to go to black women, and hear their experience. Like I need to understand if this is just something I've experienced, right? Or is it as I stated, like something that is systemic, so going to the people who are closest to the problem to understand like, what their experience has been. And then I'm starting to ask why. And I think Marissa talked about this to like, really thinking about, let's not just address symptoms, right, but what is the root cause? And when we look at the root cause to the systemic issues, part of it is racism. And so then we need to think about, like, how does racism show up in our workplaces? So racism can show up in our workplaces by a lack of access, right? So black people, historically marginalized folks not having access the same amount of access to opportunities or to leadership, and also visibility, right, they don't have the same visibility to get to these opportunities. And they get these opportunities, as well as a lack of psychological safety. And so by focusing on those things, and kind of pinpointing some of those root causes, then the question was, okay, so how do we solve for this? And so in my research, and just as, you know, again, just talking to different people researching, you can quickly Google like how to help black women into leadership and you will see, sponsorship will come up as a solution. And so that was from conversations that I even had with white male executives to say like how did you get to where you are, what has been instrumental in you getting to where you are sponsorship was something that kept coming up over and over again. And so that was the solution that I landed on to say, hey, we can try this right. Let's try this and see what happens.

Okay, so, once you you had those steps in place. How did data play a part in, in getting this initiative moving?

Yeah, I mean, so I work at an academic medical center. Again, like I've led meeting process improvement initiatives, I understand like, we have to have data, in order to get that buy in, especially at the executive leadership level, I'm very fortunate to be a part of an organization where they were not only making Black Lives Matter statements, right, they put forward entire equity strategy. And they have been very transparent with our data, including leadership parodied by race. So that word, that data had been communicated through the organization. And so like, I knew that we had the data. And I knew that the organization was committed to increasing our representation by our representation at the senior leadership level. And so I felt confident being able to go to our diversity equity inclusion department, and ask for the data, right, like to get intersectional, we can say, Okay, I know we have the data by race, but can we have the data by race and gender? Right? So we want to see, like, I know what people are saying, I know what I feel, but like, Let's actually create a picture, right, let's see a picture of what it actually looks like. And so that's where I started. And I think the other thing we really wanted to see is just like where are where do black women sit in the organization. So by staff level, also creating that picture and telling a story.

Like, you went back and say, intersectionality, again, and, and because that's important that the more points we put in there, it's important when you're looking at equity, and who has been left behind, because as soon as you can solve it for black women, okay, now you go to black women who are mothers, now you go to black women who are lesbians, right? And, and still are going to have these marginalized employee, that you still haven't put equity to a new workplace. And so I love how you say, Hey, you did about gender race, this crosses over? Because it's truly important to look at that data through that lens to understand if, if, is there some work to be done? And maybe you're not, maybe you've done a great job, and there isn't additional work to do
right. Now, I mean, we've moved that we know how we feel, but Right. And like I always say this to anybody who was saying like, hey, we need to fix something? Well, okay, you know, let's look at the data first. So let's see, like, if it's a problem, how big of a problem is it? Right? Is it the problem we need to focus on so the data can help you with all?

So you have this sponsorship program? How does it work? And maybe you're seeing some sudden changes through it as it grows. But how did how did that launch? And where are you right now, in that sponsorship program?

Yeah. So. So we started the program in June. And the program is focused on pairing men, black women who are a mid level manager, so manager and director level with, we targeted white male executives for our first cohort. So at the VP level and above, and what we do like we took a very innovative approach to sponsorship, so there to do research you can find frameworks for and best practices for formal sponsorship programs, right that are focused on what I talked about bridging the visibility and access gap. But for our program, we also wanted to make sure that we were addressing some of those systemic barriers that I mentioned. And the way that we did that was we engage the equity strategist, who engaged in four facilitated sessions with the sponsors and the protegees together as a group. And we focus on sharing the black experience of black women in the organization. So we not only shared our stories of how we've experienced the organization, we were able to share some of our experiences as patients in health care, which is very important. But we also were able to hear from our sponsors, how they want to show up as allies for black women, and then think about how we can partner together to create the organization that we desire to have for our patients in our community. And so, we engaged in those four sessions, four monthly sessions, and then beginning in October, we have six months of group coaching that's focused on allyship. So to increase inclusive leadership capability for our sponsor, and also have some executive coaching for the black women, to help us to think about how we lead in a way that's authentic to our lived experience, and leverage that in service of the organization, and then add to going on concurrently throughout this time, each protege is having a monthly one on one with there's individual sponsors.

So I want to step back and ask a question about not just support from your executive team. But the financial backing because you talked about bringing in an equity partner or equity consultant, you've talked about these coaches coming in executive coaches for the black women, additional training for the sponsors. So did your organization find funding right in the middle of the year? Or how did how to how are you able to press upon them, they had to find funding to bring equity into the workplace.

Yeah. So again, like are, like, I'm fortunate to be a part of an organization that had equity strategy, as well as dollars set aside to focus on different equity initiatives. So they had the money set aside, they just needed to have like, you know, initiatives that they were supporting. And also, so our fiscal year ends, June 30. So you know, we started at the beginning of our fiscal year, July one. So there was some, you know, strategic, like, we had to think about like, when will started, how will fund it type of thing, but the money was there that had been allotted for our equity to whether
it Have you been able to get long term funding like they've committed three years, or is it year to year that you will, you'll have to go back to continued financial? Yeah,

I'll be quite honest. Like, we haven't talked about it that far, like we did put the program in place as a pilot. And so we'll revisit that at the end of the program, which is January fy 23.
Okay, of 23.
So it's like an 18 month. Okay. Right. Because if we're thinking about helping people to advance right to the next level, we understand that's going to take time, right? That's not something that's like, after the four months, like, Hey, everybody, there might not be rolling to put people in, right, we have to wait until the opportunity comes up. So it's an 18 month program.

Catch, okay, so I'm, let's get this. So is it executive training program, that's 18 months focus on black women in middle management, helping them get to senior management roles. It has been funded for an 18 month period. The training is not only for the black women, but also their sponsors to understand black woman's experience in the workplace, black woman's experience and health care, and really, for them to understand what racism looks like, overall, so So the sponsors are going through the journey?

Absolutely. Yeah. So we are both on a journey together. And I think that's so important. And it really has, like the experience so far, has really been remarkable. And so I'm really glad that we did set it up that way. Because I think there's just so much opportunity on both ends for us to to learn and to build trust amongst each other.

So I just want to talk for those of you who were here for Lynn hurdles. Talk. When we kicked off, she was talking about her program on the matter of race where she works with white people, teaching them what racism is and how to become anti racist. And so you just brought up another thing, which was people have often tried to fix us, black people, indigenous people and other people of color. But that's not the issue. Right? The issue is understanding number one, we're racism. So that's for white people to understand how they become anti racist. And so I like your approach in this program is we have to train the sponsors about our black experience black women's experience more specifically in the world, and in the workplace. And I think that's, I don't think there are a lot or many or any other programs that are really doing it on that level. 
And
yeah, you're exactly right. And I think one thing that I have to say About our executive leadership and, and this is internal and external, as I talked about, just after Joyce, George glory, I started becoming more and more vocal about the experience of black women in the organization publicly, you know, within my organization as well as like via LinkedIn. And one thing was, people would reach out to me and say, like, you know, I really like what you're saying, I hear what you're saying, I want to show up as an ally. But I don't know how right like, I really want to, I don't know what to do. I don't know, I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing. And more often than not, it was white male executives, who was who are reaching out to me to say these things. And so I guess what I'm saying is, I think that there may be white male executives and white people out there who wants to show up as outliers, right? They know that something is wrong, they know there's a problem. But they just they need. I mean, I know there are different candidates on this, right? I understand that. But they may just need someone to say like, here is the program do this. And if you bring it to them, right, like they will be, they will buy into it, but they just don't know what to do they want to do something, they don't want to be on the fence, right? They want to be anti racist, but really just need that push to take the next step.

Absolutely not, not even a push, sometimes. They just like, what, I'll go do the work. Just give me a coppice and after. So, I love that. And I've had quite a few people at that time, too, that wanted to know what to do and how to do it. And the number one thing I will tell you, you will say something wrong. But the point is, you have to grow through it. And you have to learn from it. Is it for though I don't have any kids, I've just seen a lot of them with a mom with a daycare. But one thing you learn is from that first kid to the second kid, sometimes just for the first kid for one to two is a whole lot of growth, I Oh, that's fine, you live in a wall, your thing, you know, the third year, and so you, you start to get better and smarter about this. And so I encourage those who want to do the work, especially in the workplace and bring equity in the workplace. It's important that you continue to make the mistakes, you grow, and you learn from those. And it's really important to think that you're not going to do something wrong. The point is that you look to do it fewer and fewer times.
So that's the growth mindset and definitely needed related to anti
racism. Absolutely. So how can people connect with you faith,

so you can connect with me on LinkedIn. So I talk a lot on LinkedIn about advancing black women in the workplace. So please do follow me. I'm always interested in engaging other people's content as well. And then as a part of witty, more women in technology International, we are a group of us hosts a room on clubhouse on Thursdays, we just called shut them down racism solutions for black women in the workplace in which we talk about solutions. We just solution that that are helping black women to not only survive workplaces, but to thrive in their workplaces. And so please do if you are a black woman, if you are an ally or a person who desires to be anti racist and to show up as an ally for black women. Please join us. We're there every Thursday night on clubhouse at 7pm. Central. And the room is hosted by witty Women in Technology International.

Absolutely. So if you if you joined the clubhouse app, which is a social media audio platform, you don't have to get dressed you can be in bed. Yeah. Yeah, and it's, it's about conversations. And really listening and growing don't have to come up to the stage, raise your hand come to state it'll make sense if you're not familiar with the app once you join, and you can just listen learn and grow from from those from those, those rooms. They last about two hours. But the important part is showing up to learn. The next important that pivotal part is taking action. So I love the allies, but I'm looking for abolitionists, those who are really going to put things in a line that are really gonna impress
Yeah, I'm here for whatever a word is about.
I love it. I love it. Thank you so much faith for joining us today. This has been absolutely fantastic. I love this work. Go ahead. Go ahead.
No, thank you. Thank you so much for having having me like you are a person who I met via clubhouse right. So we've had audio conversations, but not face to face, video. So that's always great. So I appreciate the opportunity. I've enjoyed the conference today. So thank you for the platform and the work that you're doing to create equitable workplaces.
Thank you so much faith, I really appreciate it. I'll talk to you on Thursday. All right.
Take care.

Okay. Bye. Whoo. So definitely come join the conversation on clubhouse, if you don't mind, another social media app. But you can just jump on on Thursday at eight o'clock. Maybe go to YouTube, if you're like, I don't know about another social media platform. And I'm not asking these kids, you can go to YouTube, to watch a short video on how to download the app and how to engage on the app, that's a great way to have conversation, you may not find all the conversations you would love to have, but you can definitely find conversations to have on the app. So I definitely recommend joining WiDi wi ti Women in Technology International, which is a nonprofit, professional organization, for women in technology, International. Alright, so you can I'm in that room quite, quite frequently. Now, if you're just joining us for the ethical workplace, creating the future work virtual Summit, welcome to the summit, we are actually in the last 90 minutes. But don't go anyway, go go anywhere, we still have a lot to discuss. We still have phenomenal speakers, who are going to be joining us and sharing with you how they have used data, or how data can be used to create equity in the workplace. Oftentimes, when we talk about the future of work, we're talking about it in the lens of how technology is going to change and transform the workplace where you can use technology or data to transform the workplace to bring in equity. And as we sit in the midst of the Great resignation, the great retirement, the great, whatever you want to call it, we are now in my opinion, in the future of work, people thought the future was going to come after they retire. Surprise, it has shown up and it is here and now. And it's really important that you take this opportunity to continue to really build a workplace that is build a workplace wear in your aren't always the majority of our employees are happy. Have you asked and inquired about who's unhappy in that workplace? Because that truly makes an impact on if you're creating equity in your in your employee base in your workplace? And how does that impact your employee engagement? How does it impact career trajectory? How does it impact the health and wellness of your employees? So be sure you stay tuned, we're going to get into some of that. And actually what metrics employers should be finding. Now if you want to win a copy of giant Graham's book plantation theory, be sure you head over to equitable workplace positive hire.co. To register there, we will have the replay for this virtual summit share it over there so that you won't have to scroll through four hours of interviews to find that golden nugget you're you're you're looking for. It'll be right there broken out in individual sections for you to easily grab a whole to that, and easy for you to watch. So we are excited to have you go over there to engage Plus, it gives us the opportunity to reach out to you and say hey, we have I don't know maybe Laurel Rutledge with us. And she's back to do a different live stream on LinkedIn with us. I don't know, all sorts of crazy stuff. But we're definitely definitely going to have an opportunity for you to further engage with a lot of our guests here today. Now. We've had really great sponsors we talked about we still have one more sponsor we're going to talk about after our next speaker who is Laura Rutledge. I am going to bring Laurel up not Laura. Not Lori Lori Roll. I'm from South Carolina. So I might have, I might add a letter and drop a bat. Add a constant. Like for instance, I went to Clemson University I see it with a P but I spell it with invisible peak. So just a row with us today because that is what it's all about. So

Michele:
Welcome, everybody. Thank you so much for joining me today. It is another dei Thursday, but it is very special in several ways. Number one, number one, we have Mr. John Graham with us today. And I love John, let me say, first of all, he he calls me sister Heyward. Yes. But this is also the kickoff to open spaces system. Hey, sorry about that. This is the kickoff for the virtual Summit, equitable workplace creating the future of work. We always talk about future work being technology base. But to me, the future work is already here, and it's about equity. And we're starting off with John because he has written this fantastic book called plantation theory. Now, I will tell you all a secret that I can tell John yet. He knows I'm from South Carolina, I'm sitting in South Carolina, in a subdivision that starts with the word plantation. I want you to imagine that. So welcome to America. We all get into this really good and the next 30 minutes? Because I want to first have you introduce yourself to everybody that's watching and listening today.
John:
Absolutely. Well, Michelle, it's a pleasure to be with you. I'm happy to to be discussing such an important topic. I currently am the Vice President of Global employer brand diversity and culture for shaker recruitment, marketing, full service recruitment marketing agency that helps we help our clients build diverse and inclusive employer brands to attract, engage and retain the world's multicultural workforce, but also ensuring that the marketing actually matches reality so that companies aren't selling a false narrative and unintended ly driving up attrition rates, the work that I do is steeped in lived experience. So my contribution to moving dei to 3.0 status is working backwards from the lived experiences of the most marginalized talent in organizations, and helping, you know, consulting as a thought partner to chief diversity officers chief, a chief HR officers, chief talent, and people officers to tailor their strategies to address those needs of those most marginal in a way that that you can then stand on as an employer and employer brand. So I'm also the author of, as you said, plantation theory, the black professional struggle between freedom and security, which I know we'll talk a little bit more about today, but yes, happy to be with you.
Michele:
Glad you're here. Okay. What you kind of tell what the book is about with the title. And let's let's get into the title of the book plantation theory, the black professional struggle between freedom and security. What? What does that mean?
John:
Yeah, yeah, so I mean, plantation theory on its own right. A jarring headline, people don't necessarily associate their daily corporate jobs or professional jobs with a plantation. But what I've seen, not only throughout my career, but more so glaringly in the last 18 or 19 months is the struggle between freedom and security, meaning black folks being so being highly credentialed, super capable, outperforming based on work output, having brilliant ideas and the capability to do more than what their job titles showcase. But not being given the opportunity not being valued, not treated fairly or equitably in their organizations. And so it poses the question, Well, why don't you just leave, right? Go build your own start your own? Well, the notion of freedom. This is super scary, right? We weren't necessarily taught how to be free. And what I weave in and out of the book is the historical connections between the why and the what, and then starting to talk about how but yeah, freedom is a scary thing for those who are never taught to be free. And so we default to security.  We go to what we know the job security, get a good job stay with an indoor and we attribute That or connect that to like staying in an abusive relationship. So this is that struggle wanting to do more wanting to be free, but yet competing with the necessity and the urgency of security.

Michele:
So as, as we talk about the corporate struggle for black people, have you found that where we are in dei employers are still surprised about the experiences that black employees are experiencing in their workplaces?

John:
Yeah, I'll say an aggregate, no. But when it gets down to their specific organization, there are I see a lot of clients who are like, surprised or shocked by some of the things that we uncovered through our approach. And that's, I think that speaks to a bigger a bigger challenge of the power dominant group not being exposed to the lived experiences of marginalized people because they don't have to be, right. They they live in largely homogenous communities, their networks are largely homogenous, their entertainment, their religious experiences, sports, all of these things, right. Don't lend themselves to the experiences of those that don't look like them. And so when you see that uncovered in an organization where they believe, is doing well in some of these areas, while you start to realize they never stopped to ask better questions, and really examine what the lived experience is,

Michele:
are they also tracking maybe more metrics and numbers to a degree than they are actual incidences? are recurring patterns in your organization's certain metrics?

John:
Right. So depending on where an organization is in their maturity, right, and Dei, you have metrics in place, a lot of times they're representation based? are we increasing diverse talent? Numbers over time? You know, you're starting to see companies look at tracking the reduction of attrition, right? Are we maintaining or retaining the talent we have? What I'm not seeing is those exit interview data points, those Employee Relations complaint data points being used actively as a metric that's driving strategy. They know of that that data? They're aware of it? Is it incorporated into their public or transparent or widely socialized strategies? I'm not saying that.
Michele:
They're very interesting. So let's go back to the actual lived experience of black black people in corporate America. And let's talk about that for a bit what are some of the recurring incidents or behaviors or things they're encountering that that surprise or surprise employers that are going are continuous? In your organization?

John:
Yeah, great question. I mean, I highlight a bunch of these in the book. But I think in general, let me let me start with a higher framework here. So if we were to say in the last 18 or 19 months, if you look at most of the companies that have put out commitment, statements of change, allocated resource headcount, dollars to organizations, built relationships with HBCUs, all of these activities that they've embarked on, if you were to ask black folks at those same companies, have they seen a change in their daily lived experience? The answer is still resoundingly No. So what haven't they seen a change and they still find themselves the only ones in meetings that look like them. There may have been some incremental change in leadership, elevating a few folks in non p&l responsible roles, right, so supportive, or administrative roles. The daily slights, the micro aggressive management, that the emails with, you know, micro aggressive or macro aggressive tones, you know, being excluded from meetings that they should be not getting the performance review outcomes, that that would be commensurate with their work outputs. So these are the things that are still going on. If we think about representation, authenticity and development being the three major things that we track in our lived experience based approach. Well, we're still not meeting the mark on all of these, right? So you're not seeing the representation in leadership levels or board levels. You're still not being a you're still finding that it's hard to be your authentic self without repercussion, right. Code Switching the Reducing of the reduction of threat perception amongst power dominant culture suppressing ethnicity changing hairstyle like all of these things are still a daily reality. And then development opportunities are still scarce right, not not having a clear path forward for career development, not being given insider information or valuable information through access to informal networks, right, where most critical information on success norms, the unspoken or unwritten rules of advancement and leadership culture are translated or transmitted. So these are the things that still aren't being done, that we have opportunity to, to address.

Michele:
I absolutely agree at I remember years ago, talking to an engineer, who was working on a very specialized project, only one in his department, working with a whole other teams, very special, young black guy. And the organization was bringing in training and what he was doing on this particular project, he did not get invited to train and he even asked to attend. And he was like, Oh, you don't need to go. But he was the only one in his group in his function that was actually doing the work. And he ended up taking the opportunity, repositioning himself, right with that experience that was so unique with his skill set, and found another employer. Well, guess what? Now all of a sudden, his bosses approaching him to stay lightweight. When I asked for this, you told me I didn't need it. And it's really interesting how you point out, you don't provide me the opportunity. That's the training I need, right? Because now you're no longer pet. Right? Now your competition? Yeah, you're, you're no longer pet, you're a threat. And we see this often. And and one of the things one of the things we do with positive hire, specifically is train women with different skill sets. non technical skill says they have the technical ability. It's like how do you maneuver in these spaces, and literally taking a one hour webinar, like 4060 minutes, 75 minutes, and they're able to reposition themselves right things differently, and get a promotion of a new job. But nobody's teaching them this or given them that training. And sometimes we don't know what to ask, sometimes you are asking and being told no. And they are begging you to stay. And so it's really interesting that you bring that up, because the first thing I ever did with this organization was provide training, and to train and how I knew to provide this training, there was an older white woman when I lived in Tulsa, Oklahoma, she said, this advance your career. This is what and I went to the executive training program, I had to fight to get the money, right? story, but nobody had told me this, oh, you need a mentor. That's what they tell you. Nobody tells you about these other things. And so I'm glad you brought that up. And just for those of you who don't know, if you're especially in a large organization, they have 1000s of dollars available, usually to you for Training and Development, you don't know what to ask for. You're probably even paying out of your pocket for your own career coach, or training programs, certificate programs, and they love that. And I literally had somebody in my community. She's like, Michelle, I want to get this. And I went and asked my boss for it. I said, who you know, at HR. She like the person I know, let's say reach out to that person. And let's see who else she's up to HR. So she found somebody else and they covered it. They like, oh, yeah, we have money left in the budget. Her boss is. So you have it's how do you maneuver it? So I love that. So so. Go ahead, John.
John:
I'm sorry, I was gonna say you brought up several phenomenal points. Number one, we aren't taught the norms of corporate culture and the language required to be in leadership. There's a reason for that, whether it's proximity and access, growing up, education. These are things that aren't taught expressly right until you get to these executive leadership courses, which is interesting, where they fashion you to reflect the image of leadership. And what we know is the default image of leadership that cisgendered able bodied white men. That's one. Secondly, when we talk about this implantation theory, our ability to reflect whiteness is a determinant of access and proximity. And I say that because people, right there's a reason why you don't see many non white male and even white female, in this case in executive leadership roles and because they don't view you as leadership based on it's not even on your work outputs, it's your ability to, to speak the language right to understand the norms, at an intuitive level to be able to navigate the politics, the positioning, the jockeying, right, all of these things that are required at that at that level. And so why would they elevate those who are working twice as hard for half the pay into a position as an equal? That's, these are the tougher conversations that we have to have about diversity, equity and inclusion? Are we really addressing these undercurrents of cultural disconnect in these Grand Canyon esque divides between us in terms of racial realities? And this, this goes down to language, this comes down to cultural norms and nuances that are largely on top. So
Michele:
absolutely agree. And I know, I don't want to tell them what's in the book, The Show gotta go read the book. So I knew some of my examples. So you can go read the book, The Secret just?
Yes, please do.
John:
So one thing that I want to talk about, and you, you know, we hang out on some other platforms and have discussions, and I shared a 32nd clip last night on on on LinkedIn, and I did on the ground. And I think we were probably surprised, like, where she get this from?
Clips are real.
Michele:
But I knew that because I knew this cop was coming like, Oh, this is juicy right here. Okay. Let's talk about that accountability for diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives and goals. Right? What is this accountability? who is accountable? Who should be accountable?
John:
Well, I think we first have to define what accountability means. Right? We have a shared assumption of what accountability means. If I were to say, Michelle, I want you to be accountable for this, that comes a lot that resonates with you very differently, right, then it would for maybe somebody outside of our racial reality. So accountability can mean fully standing in ownership of the success and the failure and admission of guilt or wrongdoing or, right. That's what we perceive as accountable. That's not necessarily what accountability means in other cultures. So let's, let's let's look at it from a different lens. What if accountability means simply, who's responsible for leading or guiding this program? Who is going to measure the success of this program? What are the outcomes that we've all agreed on? Okay, cool. But nowhere in that accountability definition is a consequence mechanism for if it fails. And without, we don't have enough time to get into the underpinnings of what I'm talking about. But culturally and across racial realities, the way that language is transmitted, and consumed, can mean the difference in outcome. And so we have to be clear and aligned on what we mean by accountability. And when we think accountability, we're like, Well, who gets fired? If this doesn't work out? Right? What is the consequence for a mid level manager who's not embracing and advancing the approach to inclusive culture building? What happens if you're bringing diverse slates to hiring managers with diverse panels, and they're still not choosing diverse talent, even though they're more qualified? What happens if those are the accountability conversations that we have yet to get to? But there's also the other side of that, and that's incentive, right. So who gets rewarded, if these goals are met, these metrics are attained and so forth, starting to see a little bit of that introduced to tying it to Performance Review Bonuses at executive level leadership, cool. I daresay it provides or creates perverse incentive, though, because you'll, you'll work towards the number, not necessarily to improvement of the lived experience or removing the toxicity that's driving these negative experiences. So yeah, accountability has to first be defined.
Michele:
I love it. I love it. And I like that that last part, where you're talking about who's incentivize, and it's like, it's interesting. How often do we incentivize kids are doing their homework or cleaning their rooms? Or maybe people just don't? I don't know. I don't go in everybody's house. Right.
John:
I know, we had consequences for not doing that. I don't know about incentives. That's relatively new.
Michele:
I mean, you get to live here. I'm just according to my parents, so that's right.
John:
Do you like like heat, electricity, all of those things? Yeah. That's your incentive. But that's the point right? So we know human behaviors is altered by K carrot or stick right incentive or consequences is not new. So it's, it's, it's interesting to me that these known human caught on human behavior, social psychological behaviors are applied to our, to our change, change strategies and organizations. It's interesting.
Michele:
It really is. I remember hearing the incentive side at a Black Enterprise. It might have been it was a tech conference, it was in the bay, this was probably 2016. I don't remember which, which fortune 500 It was like, you get incentivized for doing what's right. Wait, I thought that was just? Yeah, I thought it was just your salary. Okay. Maybe that's just the show up fee. That's, that's just what what you charge them to show up at a job?
John:
And who defines what's right, right. It's subjective. It is,
Michele:
it really, really is. And I think there are ways to define what's right. And who, who can help define it, as you said, are marginalized employees marginalized people, and if they're not defining what is acceptable in the workplace, but you also can't lean into them to, to go through and build out everything. But they definitely did have a good portion of the statement as to what is right, and what that what accountability also looks like, as well. And I would love to see stakeholders in organizations, have a have another say before, executive side as to who's accountable and at what level? Because they always say, well, the stakeholders need this bed. Let the stakeholders speak. Right? And see what they have to say and what they're going to point towards as to what it who's to be held accountable, and what those those goals should look like. So let's, so I like, Yeah, you did everything. Now we need to push stuff back up. Because, yeah,
John:
well, you can't you can't define an outcome for somebody without ever incorporating or including their lived experience in the conversation. And that's largely what we've seen happen as the DEI initiatives are initiated at the top of the organization, typically by those most entitled privileged and status, done research and brought in data to inform hired Chief Diversity Officer cool. But when we actually talk about what are those daily lived experiences that never enters the conversation, so what you end up getting is a strategy that is designed to cover all right, when I asked one of the most critical questions in any client interface around EI is who are the intended beneficiaries of your work? And you'd be surprised how often that question doesn't get asked? Because their answer would be everybody. But I'm like, everybody's now marginalized. So if we're creating solutions for everybody, who are we actually creating solutions for? Nobody. And so now we have to ask ourselves, are we committed to solutions? Are we committed to activity? I need to know upfront, just so I don't have expectations, that that shouldn't be placed there. Right, and that your employee base doesn't have the wrong expectations either. Absolutely. So
Michele:
yeah, really. And you know, I'm an engineer. So I like the, the research and the data. But sometimes the data is wrong. The benchmarking you're utilizing is if you look at Tech, all of them doing poorly. So why are you going to? Well, they have 1.2% Black employees, we have 1.5. Why else? But but the area you live in is 13%. Let's really talk about why only tech companies are the only ones that can keep up. So it's a pipeline problem. Let's look, have you looked at your exit interviews, going back to what you're saying? Sometimes the data is so flawed and has so many biases built in, you cannot utilize it, you're gonna have to go out and find benchmarks to go.

John:
So that's exactly right, exactly. Right. One of the things I do in the book, in the last chapter is I pose a series of questions, checklists, checklists, questions for executives, but also questions for recruiters in this effort to encourage better questions. And you'd be surprised on what kind of response I get from those questions in that book, right. Like how many people are like I never would have thought to ask these actions. And we're talking about, you know, white men, we're talking about Asian Latin x, we're talking about black folks. Right? Who never would have thought to ask some of these questions. But to your point, the data is only reflect right when they say, garbage in garbage out, right? So if you're not asking the right questions, and then your output isn't getting, you're eliciting the results you're looking for? Well, then you have to question your questions. Question, the questions that look at your survey instruments, what are you? What are you actually trying to solve for? And are the tools that you're using the right tools to address or get at that information? So, you know, Tech has done. We've seen companies do Herculean efforts in very little time when it comes to threats to their business function. It's not a capability question at all anymore. We're at a willingness stage, what are you willing to do? If you're only interested in the bare minimum to stay in legal compliance? Okay, well, that's what we've seen for the last 57 years. But at this point, candidates see through it, existing employee see through it, the attrition rates are spiking right now, especially across black talent pools. And the questions that are being asked at the recruitment stage, they're opting out, because they're seeing the signals at first, first point of contact, that this isn't a place where I'm going to be valued, just based on the cultural competency or cultural intelligence levels of recruiters. So we've got some work to do beyond just the activity commitments and looking at real solutions that actually benefit those who are intending to benefit.
Michele:
gone absolutely, absolutely agree. So for those of you who are interested in John's book, so John, one question I have, because because it's about me, right, this book is about me. So I have the book, it's autographed, I got my an autograph. Book really for like, who is because you said is a list of questions. People who is this book really for?
John:
You know, it's interesting, my, my editor asked me that to AMA publisher, and they were like, you know, who's your target audience. And I said, I didn't want to write it specifically for one audience. But here's, here are the few. It's for the black HBCU students, freshman level or senior level thinking about what major they're going to choose or what career path they're about to embark on. It's to give them the the crystal ball to lay out the road ahead of them as they're going to experience that nobody's telling them in their coursework. It's to give them the talk that we didn't get before we entered corporate to know what we were going to experience on a daily basis. It's to help them to ask or at least evaluate the relationship of a corporate job differently than the premise we've been sold historically, right? Go to school, get your degree, get a good job, or 30 years retire and die. You have more access to information and network than anyone in the history of human civilization at this point, so you can make better decisions. Conversely, it's for the pedigreed B school student who is going to be tapped as the next titan of industry, to give them a perspective that they've never had based on proximity, environment, exposure. It's to help them lead differently to be an inclusive leader, not just in statement, but also in action, is to ask yourself better questions to arrive at better solutions that ultimately lead to better business outcomes. And for everyone in between. So that's who it was written for. It's also and lastly, I'll say it's written to tell our story as black professionals in a way that hadn't been told before and saying all of the things that we wanted to say, but we're afraid to for fear of risking security.
Michele:
Absolutely. I want for every, every black person who's being asked in the workplace to retell their trauma, to direct people, to direct people to John's book, because I think it's really important that we not have to relive it. But we still be able to show it and share that experience. And if you're like me, like look once twice after that, I need a fee, or I'm just not gonna do it. Right. In really, it's it's these types of Publishing's in materials that really help us not have to relive things but start to heal, and find and find places because we go home and we talk about it, we get on Twitter and we talk about it, we might be on clubhouse talking about it, right. But the ability to heal through what we experience is truly important, especially if we're not having to live it and tell it in the same place.
John:
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Michele:
So, John, any any final, final words for those joining us today?
John:
Other than thank you, again, for the Space Platform and the opportunity to disconnect with you. Always a pleasure, Michelle, and those are positive hire anybody listening? Certainly visit plantation theory.com. Get your copy, I'd be happy to sign it as well, if you want to drop me a note on LinkedIn and let me know you did so. That way and then also, I mean, what I encourage people all the time after any of these conversations is start asking better questions. Right, if we're not seeing the outcomes that are desirable? Well, let's look at what questions are being asked and really start to push our leadership into into action that's beneficial for those who are it's intended to be. So thank you.
Michele: 
You're very welcome. John, thank you so much for joining me, everybody. This is why I had John kickoff the equitable workplace virtual Summit, because it ain't equitable, yet. It's a lot of work to do. These stories are not old, they are present day. And we need that accountability kicked into high gear sooner, like 2019 sooner than later. So, John, thank you again, everybody. Have a great day and we will talk to you later.

Michele
Welcome, welcome everybody. This is Michele Heyward here, and today you are in for another great treat. I have sure Shehara Wooten here with me today, she's a Certified Financial Planner. And in a previous life, she was an engineer. So she might tie for people, we nerd a lot, right? She's still adieu to numbers. But today is really special because she is going to be talking about or we're going to be having a conversation about the racial wealth gap. And it's really important as we're in a transition here, not only in the US, but globally, talking about economics. And we're seeing different types of inflation here in the US. Different things are going on economically. But when you look at the racial wealth gap, it has been built in in so many levels. And how do we deal with that? So I'm so happy to have you here. Can you share with everyone a bit about yourself? You told me you used to be an engineer, which, you know, I'm excited about, but what are you excited to share with everybody? Absolutely. Well, first of all, I just want to thank you, Michelle, it's been so good to see you here. And thank you for having me on your platform. And I'm really excited right now to talk about our conversation where we're talking about the racial wealth gap. Like Michelle said, I am an engineer by training, electrical and computer engineer, is where I got my degree from The Ohio State University. And, and it's funny, because I noticed Michelle, she really stuck out to me when I noticed that we used to work at the same company years ago, I don't think we work there at the same time. But we we have worked at the same company. And that's not the nice thing. LinkedIn will, will do that you guys share a company and so. So from that point forward, we connect it. And I focus mainly on STEM professionals, women professionals, I think I was just drawn to women and STEM professionals just because of my background. And it seems that, you know, obviously, there's still a lot of work to be done. A lot of people come from backgrounds where they might be the first that to graduate into, you know, make the kind of income they're making. And, you know, and just need that kind of assistance and help. And I just the reason why I got into this and change careers was I looked at, you know, 25 year old Shahara. And when I was 25 years old, I was an engineer working in Philadelphia, and I remember going to an urban lead young professionals event. And there was a financial empowerment meeting. And at that meeting, there were insurance agents, there were financial advisors, I'd never really seen that before. And I was curious. And I knew that in my mind, like, there were things I wanted to do, you know, with my money. So immediately, when I saw this bank, and I saw this financial advisor behind the table, I said, You know what, I'm gonna go up to him, and I'm going to tell him, I'm interested in doing this. And I said, I want to retire by 30. I was 25. Mind you. So I was 25. I knew five years was short. And I also thought 30 was old. So

Shehara
I know much better now. You know, deep down inside 30 was never owed, but in my head at 25, it just seemed like, you know, yes, it is a good number, but the person just really didn't help me. So there's a whole long story behind that. But that really whet my appetite to really take control of my own financial narrative. And I learned and got information and then finally just decided I wanted to change careers and start helping people as well. So I always think about that 25 year old shoe hair and want to help others like that. And that way,

Michele
I love it. So often, it's those types of experiences that for us to really make impact and change in other's lives. So I love that story. Like I came here I'm gonna get it like five years, like Yes. Yeah. At least they didn't say go play the lottery, I guess.
Shehara
Exactly. Right. Yeah, it well, we just never even opened it accounts even started at you know, even 100 bucks a month. It was really strange. So, so now I just know, I know that either he was incompetent, or he just didn't want to help me. But I'm here in a position to be able to help somebody if they do come to me at 25 I want to retire by 30. Because you know, that's ancient. I can help us, you know, understand what the goals are and understand how to make it realistic for them. I'm not going to discourage them, but we're going to see What we can do, you know, so and I can help them now?

Absolutely love it. Absolutely love it. Okay. We aren't getting the help we need right there. So so let's get into the conversation, racial wealth gap. And we're focused specifically, right now, let's say on black communities, black Americans, what are we looking at a comparison of the baseline of white Americans to black Americans when we're talking about wealth?

Shehara
Yeah, great question. So, in 2016, there was a study, and the numbers have updated, but they're still they still have the same impact. Basically, black wealth in 2016, averaged around $17,000. And then White wealth, or white families wealth, black family, white family, was 171,000. So I mean, that is a huge difference. And it just was really this hearing those numbers. It's just like, what, what is going on? Why is this happening? And, you know, just the, and then just being in working with people working with all types of cultures and backgrounds and ages, I started to see that there is a trend there, there is a trend, and it's not that everybody in the black community is that 17,000 And not everybody in the white community is that 171. But the fact that that is on average, that, you know, the baseline, I really started to look at what are some of the factors and there's also prosperity now it they did a white paper, it's an organization and they did a white paper that said black wealth is a there's a wealth gap of 228 years between black families and white families, they also stated that by 2053, Black wealth is predicted to go to zero. So 70,000 is horrible. 171 may not even be what you're looking for, you may think that's not even good, you know, but zero, so that really, really made me feel like, like, what is there to do? What can we do? And obviously, there's a lot of factors, you know, there's redlining, you know, I mean, we can go back to enslavement. And it's amazing that many of my people, I'm a, I'm a descendant of American slaves. And it's amazing that I'm here, you know, and have been able to do things without having necessarily the support the economic supportive of other cultures. But that, you know, but in the meantime, and that's why I wrote my book, it's called, in the meantime, you know, we have all this, these other exterior forces that have caused that racial wealth gap. But my my goal is that in the meantime, until reparations are taken care of until economic justice is served, what can we do to make sure that we own our own financial narrative? And what can we do to in our personal, our families, to build wealth, and to make sure that we're making creating a legacy for generations to calm until we until we get, you know, the justice we, you know, we deserve?

Michele
So in the beat, I love that in the meantime, you know, what is it? So what does it look like? In the meantime, what are some things we should be doing? We can talk about reparations, but I want to talk about in the meantime, because we've done so much in the four generations, post enslavement, and what does that look like for five generations? And what what have we done as far as accumulating and a lot of people don't realize how much we have done walking away with nothing, right sharecropping? Yeah, dying of hunger and different things like that to having to overcome after centuries of enslavement to even be at this wealth gap is still have so many another 10 generations to try to catch up and just isn't even mathematically. So what are we doing in the meantime to kind of quote to try to close that gap?

Shehara
Yes, so my my goal and my book i It's called In the meantime, I think I might have mentioned and own your financial narrative. So I do talk about the history so that people can understand or have a vantage point of you know, why things are going the way they are maybe why things may seem a little difficult, you know, sometimes but what I how I start off is I talk about building in my intro, I talk about Black Wall Street so I get into that because I really, I think they're a great model of what it was like to be able to Just build wealth. Like they were just such a model, they had stores they had, they had hotels, they had schools, all those things, all that creativity that we have, we can use that to help build wealth and to build the community. And they they use, they really utilize the power of community. So I really highlight that, but there were four there four sections, one called Build, live, save and give. So my build section I talk about net worth, I talked about values. So what are your values deep down inside? You know, do you value independence? Do you value leaving a legacy do you value, accountability, security, if these are the things you value, then we need to make sure that we have some of those basic foundational things like an emergency fund. Um, if you want to leave a legacy, I talk about how we need to make sure that we have an estate plan, that we have a way to pass on wealth that we're creating that way to do that. So whether it's insurance, all of those things that may seem like the, you know, they're more the appeal, so to speak, but you got to get back to the your values. And so that is the first chapter where we're talking about what are your values? What's your mindset around money? What does money mean to you? So I'm a big proponent, you know, obviously, we both are, in this, we came from scientific fields and backgrounds. But the net worth equation, we got to know that equation, you know, net worth equals assets minus liabilities. So are we measuring our net worth? How are we doing that, and if you have liabilities and they're more than your net worth your assets, then that's a negative number. Focus, though, on eliminating those liabilities, which are the debts and things like that, so that you can increase that net worth. So, so that's where they're coming with that wealth number, they're using the net worth equation. And we have to start to think, Okay, how many assets? Do I have listed all that out? How many, you know, liabilities? Do I have? If I have a positive asset situation? How do I continue to increase my assets and grow those? You know? And then what, what do I do even with cash flow? So the beauty is we're bringing in good cash flow, especially STEM professionals, you're bringing in great cash flow, money's coming in, money is going out, that's what cash flow is all about. But how are you controlling the money coming in? Do you feel like, oh my gosh, I don't know where the money's going, I make all this money do I know where it's going? So, you know, so I put some strategies in there, like, you know, bucketing things out, you know, making sure that you know, okay, these are the expenses that I'm going to make sure are cover for my savings, for my investments, for my utilities, all those things that are considered your, I must take care of, you know, put that in that bucket. And then you have your lifestyle, your fun bucket, like your groceries, put that money in a different bucket, you know, the gifts and things like that. And so I'm big on some of those practical tips, because, and that accountability, because sometimes when I started when I was 25, I didn't know everything about how this all worked, you know, I knew to sock away on my 401k. And that's what I was doing. But, but I didn't know about an emergency fund. You know, I didn't know that I needed to fall back on something like that. And depending on who's in the audience, you probably already knew about that. But some of us don't. You know, I remember one lady told me that she had graduated from college had a great job working at a nice chemical engineering firm. But because she didn't realize that she had the money to buy furniture, she went ahead and just did like the rent a room furniture, and then got herself in a situation that she didn't even need to be in, you know, um, so she furnished her whole house, but she ended up having having to have that dock against their credit and, you know, because she leased it when she could have actually bought the furniture. So there's things that you know, that happened because we just, we just don't know.

Michele
Absolutely. I want to go back to the emergency fund. Yeah, before that, you know, think about maybe our grandparents having a rainy day fund or grandma keeping always socking a little a dime or a nickel away for when something happened and when something happened. Where did the money come from? Sometimes your grandma like here you go, this should cover it like wherever you get this from making pancakes and but it was very interesting how a lot of generations part As understood and came from hardship, and we talked about that in certain ways about generations, the harder is the way you set up to be prepared for adversity. It because you've, you've been through so much, so many adverse things today have an easy, and they have less types of adversity that we've encountered. And I think we have to go back sometime. And teach them. The reason why we did this is so that when you encounter this, and so you don't see it, because we, we've already built that barrier. And so I like doing something called a rainy day fund. But my grandparents had that in some way guys knew how to go about and get get it. And what we do today is pull out a credit card, it's not the same thing.

Shehara
It's not the same thing. Yes. And they, you know, they would take the time to build up. So if they wanted something they would build up to get it, you know, and one of the things that I'm big one, a big proponent of is not so much just building up and saving up only, but bringing in other income streams. But when you think about it, when you look at grandma, granddad, and all of that they were working multiple, you know, income stream, they had that, but the thing that, you know, I think this conversation does is it highlights the lack of conversation, right? We don't talk about money enough. So our grandparents, our great grandparents, may have done all these things, but they they may not have thought to you know what, I'm gonna sit her down and talk to her about this and how I'm doing this because we didn't they didn't talk about money. Yes. And then did they even have time with all the stuff going on, you know, they had to make sure the house was taken care of the bills were paid go to work. So they may not have just, they just, you know, just watch me and figure it out, just like I figured it out. But what we're trying to do is we're trying to have more conversations about money and make it more of an open discussion and not just something under the rug, you know, so Exactly, yeah.

Michele
And I guess, for my family specifically, I'm the, I call myself the favorite aunties and my nieces and nephews. Like we can't have a favorite auntie. But if we do, it's not you. So don't listen to them. I'm the favorite auntie. But anyway. So some days I've done especially I have an older nephew, oldest nephew is 29. And I'm just 30. So you know that one year, right? I'm
like, wow, that is amazing.

So what I did for him was teaching finances and buying certain books. And I remember texting him a year or two ago. He's like, Yeah, I need to go back and do my budget again. And go back. When was the last time you did so about six months ago. But that's what we had, I had a different roommate, and I had a different job. So I'm making more money now. And, and he's an actor, so he has a day job. So he's taking voice lessons, he had to get headshots and stuff like that. He needs to know where his money is. And so we always he, he knows now to keep up with that. But that was me starting with him at 18. Or even earlier talking about money. With my younger niece, my younger nephew and his system very different. She will spend it all like borrow. And it's like, okay, this is $30 I need 85 to get X, Y or Z. Mom, what can I do around the house to make more money? Yes, I love it. So it's really interesting. They're like, Y'all raise What is it like? And so you don't know what the outside influences are. But one really gets the impact of the dollar and saving and waiting to be gratification the other like, she's like a hole in my pocket.

Shehara
Right, right. I gotta get this money out. Yeah, and it's so interesting how everybody has these different mindsets, these different stories around money. And I do talk about that too. Because there is a place for spending, there's a place for saving I've done I've talked to so many people and and they're like me, I'm one of those that I don't want to I'm a good I love saving where I don't want to spend but then I know that there's a balance, you know, because I do like new things. I like certain things. And so I got to make sure that I know that it's okay to spend and that's some of the things that that I talk about too. But then you also got to know there's the other side, you got to make sure you're saving and you just, it's really about putting systems in place. It's about putting a system in place to save and it's about putting a system in place to spend and know that it's okay. Because I know people and I and I've been one of those people who feels like is it alright for me to spend this. So for y'all for you guys out there because we always you know, rag on the safe on the bed. But there's those of us who don't like to spend and Yeah, exactly. And then you're like, Was that okay? Was I you know, is that okay for me to spend? Is it gonna come again? And so what is what is that mindset like that is causing you to think if I spend this will there be anything left? Or, you know, am I being too frivolous? Am I being irresponsible? There's there's both sides of the coin and it's okay. You know, so you just got to find that harmony between the two.

Michele
Absolutely. I agree. And it's funny, my parents it my parents perspective, my mom was to say, your your dad always started with spending money and shopping fruits, please you like it was five kids, you're growing? Like, you can't were to say that you weren't months ago, you right? When the eight you know, 12 months to 15 months, whatever. Absolutely. And then on other side, my dad, like, didn't didn't like spinny anything. Like if he could drive a car for 50 years ago and drive that car for 50 years, it didn't matter. What floorboard. And it was like the Flintstones is they have very different dynamics of finances. And so it's really interesting growing up, where my mom liked nice things, but she paid cash. My dad liked nice things, but he wouldn't go buy them.

Shehara
Rather somebody buy it for maybe they he liked people to buy it for him. No, he didn't want that.

Michele
Oh, wow. Like my dad was the person he wore a uniform to work your days off. He already.

Shehara
He can't live simple.

Michele
Your dad's always working like no, he's always wearing a uniform.

Shehara
That is a good one. I love those stories. I love those stories. And that's the kind of thing that I did within the book. Because you can't really I didn't want to just do a basic like, okay, these are all the things you have to do I do and sprinkle that in. But there's amazing stories in there of people who have overcome people who are, you know, like one lady Antoinette Monroe, she pretty much bootstrapped her, her becoming a real estate investor. And, um, you know, and so it's just interesting hearing how people do it. And, you know, and how they actually make things happen. She grew up poor, but then she always loved real estate, and just, you know, decided I'm going to do this. And then I had a man who used to work at Dow Chemical Engineer, and he just decided at 30. I want to retire, you know, at 40. And he went ahead and found, he found his people, you know, he found the right people, you know, and so he got his tax advisor, his financial planner, all of them helped him he did multiple businesses. And then when 40 came around, he didn't want to leave work. He enjoyed it so much. So he had all these multiple streams of income. But what it gave him and that's the question to ask everybody is What does financial freedom mean to you? Because what it gave him was his ability to define what financial freedom meant to him and what it meant to him. He realized when he got to 40, he didn't want to retire, didn't want to leave his job. But he realized that it afforded him the the opportunity, the choice to leave if he wanted to. So he had those different streams of income coming in. And when it when it came around, he was about 48, the company he worked for, decided to lay do layoffs, or you had to move somewhere. And he didn't want to pick up his family and move somewhere. So he just said, Okay, well, this is my time, this is my time to stop doing this, and do something else. And he was able to still provide for his family and keep the lifestyle that they had been used to, without having to pick it up. Because he didn't want to move so. So what is, you know, what is your definition of financial freedom? That's the question to ask what you know, what is enough money for you? And how are you progressing forward to make that happen? So I, I, you know, there's so many different things that we do with our money and ways that we look at our money, but it's not always just about money. It's about the choices that you can give yourself.

Michele
I love that I can say when you're debt free and you walk into work, you have a different type of swagger. A different kind of way Yes, of money in the bank, and you're not waiting for payday to hit. Yes, it is. It is a different way you carry yourself like you know how you have the little mind to say, how do I say this in a professional way, like not professional today? It is completely different. So I just want to say that. Yes, it keeps you hype, and you can still be humble But it is, trust me it is a different,

Shehara
yes, it is debt free. And then and then having a good positive net worth, you know, but having all these assets, I think that is so powerful, you know, to feel that way, oh my goodness, it is it is a blessing to have that. And that's, that's what we want to get to, you know, we can still own our own financial narrative. You know, in the meantime, we can still work through this. And there is a there's another statistic I'm gonna provide right now too, because spinning in the black community, as you guys have taught heard of, there's just not a lot of circulation right within the black community. The we have a $1 trillion, over $1 trillion in spending power. One of the things that I say is that if we could take $1 trillion in spending power, and I got this from another certified financial planner, he was actually the first black Certified Financial Planner LaCount Davis. And he said that if we could take that spending power moving into investing power, what How amazing would that be? You know, how can we balance that out, you know, and do those kinds of things where we can just start to understand that community increase our net worth, grow, and just be free.

Michele
Just be framing. I'm glad you brought that up being in tech startup space. And there's always the conversations about the percentage or lack thereof, of venture capital investment. And in Hispanic founders. One of the reasons for crowdfunding, tech companies pre IPO, early stage is because then you put $250 $1,000, hopefully, you can afford to lose it because you know, but it gives the opportunity of growing wealth in a different way, at smaller weight at smaller intervals. So that $1 trillion, buying power. And people if we change even 10% of that to investment power, right? Yes, it really does change your trajectory of where we are. And we talked about how, like the places like re wood, Black Wall Street are no longer there. But in a virtual space, they still do exist. And so we're able to take those same black dollars, right, and invest them in businesses that support us that are making change for us or they're not they're doing things on a global level, or they're just straight technology, they impact positively impact the lives of everyone, we then are able to circulate dollars in a different way. And so while I love to be able to circulate it in a small town, where we virtually we can still circulate that $1 trillion. Absolutely, yeah.

Shehara
I mean, there's so many ways out and and it's funny because I'm a foodie, right, but, and it's funny, I'm a foodie, that can't eat all that food. So, so I watch a particular channel on YouTube, a guy named JLG up, I don't know if anybody's heard of him, but he goes around Philly, and Delaware and New Jersey. And it's just an example I'm gonna share about how he's able to make that kind of impact where you are using your spending power, using your influence to be able to help others. And he'll just go and try different places. And because of his following, he's been able to promote these businesses and mostly small businesses, but because of that area, it's mostly black owned businesses. But there's white on small businesses, Latino Mexican, I mean, there's so many Cambodian, Vietnamese, so he has this whole it's just really cool to watch how what he's doing. And there's a story that's recently come out where there was a business, a restaurant, and he stopped by a couple years ago, they were struggling, and they had $500 is what they were making, they were struggling practically a day, after he went and share that business with the rest of his community. He they now bring in about $2,000, you know, $2,000 a month or a day. So things like that, how can we uplift others, you know, just by using our circle our networks. I mean, it doesn't take a lot to share someone's post, it doesn't take a lot, you know, much any money at all to comment and, and just get people out there. So I just, you know, I think that there's so many ways that we can do this, whether it's in the tech space and supporting and the venture capital type space, or just doing it with our own communities.

Michele
I love it. I love it. I'm sharing a link. Do you want to tell people Yes, yes, it's for

Shehara
Absolutely. So when you go on that link, I am actually I have a book out so that we're talking, that's what we're talking about. That's the context. It's called, in the meantime, super excited it published in August here. And in that link, there is an Amazon in this link, there's an Amazon link where you can buy the paperback if you want to buy a signed copy. But, and you can buy the Kindle. So when you click on the Amazon, but it's on Barnes and Noble, it's also one what other Amazon Barnes and Noble Books a Million. So if you have, you know, your preferences there, it's on a lot of different sites. And, on top of that, I'm also starting a Money Mastermind. So we've talked about the power of community. And I think that that is really important to expand upon that. So I know that there's a all of us, it's going to take many people to make this happen. And to make sure that 2053 Black wealth does not go to zero, I'm just doing my part. So if you want to, if you're interested in joining my next Money Mastermind or learning more about it, feel free to click on the link that says the confident money method. And we can talk and you can learn more about it. And so that that those are the two links in there that I would say are the most important to this conversation. Your story financial.com/links that HTML?

Michele
I love it. So yes, changing what the racial wealth gap takes a group effort. And so I love what you said about there, but definitely go and check out the book. I personally want a signed copy. Because, you know, yes.

Shehara
I know some people love I signed copies of my next my next thing is I'm working on the hardcover. So there's people who just love hard covers, and then I'll be doing an audio book too. So the the hardcover should be out before the years out. But then the, the audio will be out next year. So for those of you like your audio books, check that out. That'll come to, I might listen

Michele
to an audio book or two while I'm out walking. So yes. I like all the things don't Yes. I love it. Yes, yes. So any final words, anything else that you want them to connect with you on social, so they'll know where to find you?

Shehara
Yes, I am most active. I know we're on LinkedIn. So you can definitely connect with me on LinkedIn. It's linkedin.com/i n slash ahera. I tried to keep it a little simple with a Shahara. Just rather than doing all the other stuff, but then Instagram, that's my other spot. Money and moves is my instagram handle. So please follow me at those places. And then like I said, we'll be starting the next Money Mastermind here, the next cohort on November the 16th. And I will need to have everybody and and matriculated in by November 7, just to make sure no, November 7 or the ninth just to make sure we're getting everybody in. And so if you're interested jump on that call. And we can talk to see if that's a good fit. But those are the things I want to leave and just want everybody to understand that it's important to own our own narrative, it's important to just take the time, don't take a blind eye, you know, if you've been not wanting to deal with your finances, this is the time, this is a great time of year as we move into 2022 to just get things right, you know, get things set up. So whether it is you're already, you've already gone past debt, you know, you're debt free, that's awesome. Maybe you need to build an emergency fund, maybe you're new, you need to focus on investing, you're saving so much, but you don't know where to where to put it. Let's talk about that, you know, let's talk about you know, just really balancing things out making sure you're protecting your wealth. And then, like I said, my last chapter talks about giving because it's really important to give back and and in my research, I was super amazed at how how much tough philanthropic black Americans are. So we do give so we're spending but we're also giving as well. So I want to you know, put that out there. But we can do this guys, we can do it. And we can own our narratives and it, the change will happen because of us. And because of what we want to do and helping each other as a as a community.

Michele
I love it. So we're the next generation of great aunties and grandmothers with the safety net, but also building wealth. And so thank you so much for joining me today. Excited about the book. Can't wait to grab a copy. Be sure you're connecting with Sherif all across social And if you're like, I don't know get on the phone and talk about like, I like to go Black Friday shopping. She didn't say you remember she said you can word yourself. Yes, I need to find some coupons or so you can write every Monday. But I will tell you probably like November's probably before the holidays, shopping starts, really to take a look. You may have been doing better than you thought or during the pandemic, but really take a home ownership of it now is to do it, the better your feel. So I do a 5g to do it now. Don't wait to 2020 to do Absolutely.
Let's start now. So yes, I agree or Michelle I'm sorry. Yeah, Misha.

Michele
Everybody, have a great week and I will talk to you later. Bye

Michele:
Another fantastic speaker. Um, he has spent his career in HR as an executive working with some of the some of some well known companies and brands. But what I really like about Randy Yes, is how he breaks down the approach that HR should be taking when they decide or decide not to work with data in the workplace. So, Randy, come on up. How are you doing today?
Randy:
Great, Michelle, how are you? I'm feeling good. Yeah, I mean, after after that last with Lynne, that was great. I was I was happy to be able to kind of watch and observe that in the In the Green Room. So seems like you've had a great day so far.
Randy:
Well, just a little, a few tech issues, but we're managing through that best. That's what I'll say.
Love it. Love it. Well, I'm happy to be here. And thanks for having me.
Michele:
You're very welcome. Can you tell the audience a bit about your background in HR?
Randy:
Sure, I sometimes describe myself as the accidental HR guy, because I actually studied music. I was a jazz saxophonist, or I should say I am as the journey always continues in music. And so if you would have told me when I was in school, playing saxophone that, you know, someday, Randy, you're going to be the head of HR, at some really interesting companies that have been one HR, you know, that would not have resonated with me. And so, but if you would have told me at the time, you know, someday, Randy, you're going to be in this role where you can inspire people, and you can drive change, and you help people do their best. I mean, like, yeah, you know, Sign me up. So as it would happen is I actually a lot of just, you know, both luck, and some good decisions, and right timing, and then probably more importantly, paying attention to people smarter than me, I found myself being a part of really interesting tech companies at interesting times, both in the recruiting capacity, talent, acquisition and such. And then also head of HR. And so, on that journey, I had a chance to work early on with Google, from about 2005 to 2012. And during this really critical hypergrowth time, where data and people was really important. And I did that all in Zurich, Switzerland, which was kind of crazy. I was the head of all the talent acquisition across the EMEA region, Europe, Middle East and Africa. And then from there listening to smart people in 2012, they were telling me about this great startup, the only company they leave Google for it's run by this guy named Elon Musk. And so I had a chance to join Elon as his head of HR at SpaceX, which was a pretty adventurous and unique opportunity. And then from there, I had a chance to kind of align more with my values of working for a founder, who was working on helping to drive change through health, wellness, music, and that was with the iconic company, jawbone, or I had a nice run as the head of HR. And we get to do a lot of interesting things and grow and scale the company, and then also implode the company and pivot to another type of company. And so it's been an amazing journey. And now I spend my time helping founders and heads of HR, think about people issues, I work closely with my wife, who's the author of storytelling with data. And we're growing a company where we're helping people more effectively tell their stories with with the data that you so it's been a great ride, and yet, I still get to continue playing the saxophone, which I love. And we have three little kids. And so I get to be a dad too. So So I love that.
Michele:
Absolutely. So you've heard a few of those large companies, but they still utilize data. When when you think, well, they're tech companies too. So it's not a surprise. But on the HR side, when you look at data, or think about data, as or works relates to people, what are some of the ways you've used data to really make make better decisions? I'll I'll start there.
Randy:
Yeah, I mean, you know, in Google is probably a great place to start, because I think Google early on saw that there could be information around the way in which we work and interact, that can be helpful in how we drive the business. And it starts with, you know, some of the most basic things which I, I think back to a time when I was speaking to a whole bunch of HR professionals, and I asked them the question, and I said, you know, Alright, show of hands and no one's gonna judge, but how many of you with at least 50 You know, 75% accuracy could tell me what your headcount is today. Raise your hand if you think that and, you know, Michelle was like, half the room kind of slowly went up. I thought, Whoa, I said, That'd be like going to your, you know, your doctor and you're like, you know, what were my what was my blood work over the last few years? They're like, I'm not sure So the very start of it is from a people standpoint in data. It's amazing how little we actually have and no in us. And it's important to recognize that fact, because many people want to jump to really trying to do interesting and innovative things with data. And yet that most basic place that we should be starting with like, is a bit elusive. And so and I think a lot of that has to do with some of the inherent challenges with data. And we can talk a little bit about that. But when it comes to working with data, the the things that we can see and the insights and in my career, the chance, I've had to be able to look at everything from, you know, what drives people to leave a company? Or what are some of those motivations of why people don't feel like they can do their best work? Or, you know, what makes a manager a great manager and another manager in your company not so great? Or can we predict, you know, who might actually leave the organization based on signals we're getting. And that's just some of the, you know, basic things around, maybe attracting talent, hiring, making sure we have the great, you know, managers to lead the team. But then we were, I mean, even at job on if I think we were dealing with, you know, the wearable space, we were looking at other things like, you know, the next all hands meetings where you're, you're seeing the different speakers, well, some HR leaders would say, you know, I have the pulse, I have my thumb on the pulse of my organization, I say, oh, yeah, well, I can actually tell you what the pulse of my organization is based on this speaker versus that. So there's so many the, it's so big, it's so wide in terms of the areas you can drive really dramatic change and impact with data. But it's remarkable how often we try to start running instead of starting with some of the small things like that basic question of, hey, what's the headcount and, and that is just some of the nature of it, we can talk a bit about that around, especially HR leaders don't tend to be data minded. And I talked to one HR leader who said, you know, look, Randy, the reason I went into HR is because I'm not good at math and data. And we have to figure out where are some of those gaps, so that we can truly harness the power of looking at information and driving positive change as a result of that?
Michele:
I love it. So I know, I took a little turn, I was like, what can you do with data? But that's not the first step, right. Because what should organization to do first, before diving into data?
Randy:
Yeah, I think there's sort of two parts. So there's almost the mechanical part. And then there's the philosophical part. And and I highlight the mechanical part. And this is that adage of people not knowing what their headcount is, is that first part is that if you have bad data, or inconsistent data and unclear data, then the resulting change or positive impact that you're trying to do, can be difficult. And I think that that is mainly because people are touching data, we have different systems that are touching data. And so sometimes the accuracy and the information that we're dealing with, becomes untenable to be able to actually drive change. So, you know, first and foremost, I think getting a hold on. What we have for information and for the data that we're working with becomes very important. I remember even with some of the data that we were looking at, on why people would leave jawbone, for example. So when I would ask my team, so why do people leave jawbone? Do we know why? And we'd get different answers from different people in the organization. But we didn't have a consistent way of going about gathering and coding and looking at this information so that we could come to some very important insights for, for that decision. And so with little change, we're actually to go about modifying the way in which we could work with the data. So we arm the HR business partners to do a survey and talked about reasons and talked about, you know, the whys. And then afterwards, we could look at it. And in an a real tangible case, one of the reasons we found people were leaving, and I'll tell you how this actually started to drive some different changes. They felt like their work really wasn't valued. They said, You know, I'm working on this project. I don't know if it's important. I don't know if you know, this, this is something that's meaningful. And I said, Well, how are we actually relaying feedback to people that their work is meaningful, and that we're doing and having a positive news. And it turns out that we didn't really have a robust performance review program for the organization. And so people weren't getting feedback. They weren't getting it regularly. And they had no idea and as a result, they were making a decision to, to leave. And so I think, you know, that's a great example where we look at the data, we don't necessarily know how the data is going to play out or what the actions are going to be as far as Oh, but we could at least use that information in a way to get that right. So that first part around the kind of the mechanicals and getting some sort of process in place is important, especially when you have people who may not be so aligned or tuned into wanting to work with data. And for that we can find ways to help them. Now, the second part back to your kind of question is that we sometimes lack having this philosophy around why are we doing something? So, when we think about, you know, exit data, well, why is it important? Well, you can say, well, we want to lose people. Yeah, that's obvious. But that's not really a core philosophy of round why you want to get that information back. And so I think, starting with that philosophy first is hugely important no matter what you are going to do with data, because if you know the why you might have like, starts and stops. Or you might find out that the data didn't work the way that you were thinking or you don't have other data that you were hoping. But if you have the philosophy, that's what keeps you on track. So back to that example that we just talked about with, you know, not really knowing why people were leaving jawbone and using the data to figure it out what ultimately drove implementing a performance review program, is the philosophy that we could then develop from that, where we take a lot of time to hire amazing people for the organization. We want them to feel valued. And we feel feedback should be happening all the time. But my senior, we want to make it a more formal thing that people really know and have something they can touch and hold on to. And that's what we measure this when people believe and is why we do things performance review. So it's that two pronged approach around having that kind of having the mechanics to be able to drive and get good information. But then more importantly, having that Northstar have your philosophy to understand why? Why you're doing?
Michele:
Absolutely, always going back to the why. Yeah, it's important no matter who you are, where you are. So you've determined your why, what is the next thing? And we have a question, but we want to we want to hold off on that for a minute. Yeah. Once you know your why, and you're, you're fairly sure. And you're so what committed to your why, what's the next thing organization should be looking at doing moving ahead with their data? Well,
Randy:
I think I know you did, in sharing the why, like, we can't underestimate like the importance of the why and repeating and not only the why, from why we believe maybe on the HR side this to be important. But if that why isn't consistent from the top down meeting, like when we talk about this, you know, let's even talk about, you know, this concept of, you know, organization that says, We want to have a balanced and diverse workforce. Okay, hurray, that sounds like a great why, but it's not really a why it's more of a statement. So why is that? Well, if you don't spend the time from almost the top down, and find ways in which this becomes repeatable and known and questioned and discussed, then then that why is is pretty useless. And so you one example is, you know, Google, the importance around a diverse workforce was that many different people use our products, and we believe that our products are going to be most amazing if the people building them are representing the people who are using and working with them. And that's why we want to continue to focus on building a diverse workforce is because we'll build amazing products if we have an amazing and diverse team. Okay, that's a consistent why. And that's a great place to start. But that's just the beginning of the journey. Because I think that the other components are around, you know, is this a pithy repeatable phrase that sounds good to the media? Or is this something that actually embody in all the things that we're doing? And we would often see this, for example, on, you know, the critical hire that had to happen in a particular group, in conflict with the mission at hand, like, we want to have a diverse and workforce. I need this position higher tomorrow, or we're not going to have a business because we need to get this on board. And how do you bridge that gap in between with some of the constraints that might exist? You know, for example, if let's just take women in engineering, like we can count up all the women graduates from computer science degrees, and we know roughly how many women in engineering are out there and how many people are trying to hire them. And if your goal is to increase, for example, the number of women in your engineering team, there may be a conflict because you're drawing from a smaller pool, which is going to cause some constraints and other challenges on that hiring side. And so while the mission and the philosophy in that having that might be important from the top down, there has to be it has to permeate throughout where there may be moments in which you'd say, well, it might take us somewhat longer to find that but in service of what we're trying to do And we know that the overarching benefit of this is going to be far greater, we know that we will put more focus on reaching a harder to reach, you know, demographic and a pool. So I think that's the first thing. And I don't know if I kind of I, you know, I keep coming back to the why. And so I don't want to miss your question. So let me get to that piece.
Michele:
You know, I like that you dug in deeper into the why has to be number one from the top, it has to be driven through throughout the organization. And more importantly, understanding you have to be able to facilitate or really be actionable in the widen, even at the most difficult times, right? Yeah. Oh, it's gonna be too hard. That's why we have you here, because you can do hard things, aren't you glad?
Exactly. Well, and I think the transparency and consistency across the organizations become the most important things like that consistency of just because it's hard, does not mean that we abandon our why exactly. Having that y in place helps us navigate through even when it's there. And, you know, we've seen companies do this who, you know, held themselves accountable and put things out that will hold them accountable. And as a result, then there may be things that they don't want to happen, like, we missed our number, we failed, we did not hit the objective we have, but that doesn't mean we divert from the why, if you truly are committed to that, and that goal, again, coming back to the data, then, you know, we have that information to hold ourselves accountable against our making progress against that.
Randy:
Absolutely, absolutely. I like that. And I would also add, when you have that, why in place, and you know, you're going to have difficult things, you sit there and usually have strategies that you develop, to help you get through those what are difficult now become easier, because you have a strategy, you have resources all laid out to help you. And you can go back and say, Hey, we did this, we tried that. These are the results we have. And oftentimes those are not put into place prior to and it happens over time you develop those. But usually nobody in a lot of organizations haven't gotten that far even thought about what happens when and if we encounter this.
Yeah. And I can give you a great example of that. So for example, one of the things that when I talked about, I'll just go back to the Google example about really trying to focus on this diverse workforce is we knew what the mission and the philosophy was that we wanted here to we have the numbers that were going to hold us accountable for how we're making progress or not. And then there's this other component, which is almost kind of weighing in the human nature component. And by that I mean, so I know recruiters, I've known recruiters, that's what I started my career in. And recruiters, apologies to any of the recruiters watching, I hope you don't disagree, but recruiters will gravitate towards the path of least resistance, okay, their goal and objective is I need to fill this position. And so when you give a challenge to say, you know, you need to feel this position. And we're really trying to optimize for making sure we have the best chance of hiring the most diverse workforce. So there's sort of two approaches you could make to that. So Company A may say, we want to make this everybody's objective, okay. Every recruiter has this as an objective that they make this a point to, as part of what they're recruiting have some focus on diversity recruiting. Okay, company B. And I can tell you because we took this approach is, I love that idea. But unless this is, it's one thing to have make this like a focus, it's another thing if this is your job. So what we did is one of the things is we we carved out recruiters, we said, the only thing you will be focusing on is making sure you continue to keep the diverse representation of candidates at the table, your whole job is to recruit. And now that came with some trade offs. So we talked about smaller candidate pools, you can't set expectations that that recruiter is going to hire at the same volume, someone who's fishing out of a massive, you know, a dense pond. And so but driving kind of behavioral changes and understanding and making changes his changes in iterations along the way, I think, are like important tenets to remember is that having the philosophy is important, but you need to be able to adjust understand human nature and make adjustments along the way. And I feel like if you do that in a very humble approach, which is we don't know how this is going to work. We're going to be very transparent. We're going to adjust along the way, but we're not going to lose sight of why we're doing this and why this is important. And that, you know, we had we did that in Europe, for example, and again with the diversity of alette, you know, 12 engineering centers across You know, 12 different countries in the unique diversity challenges across, you know, all of Europe, Middle East and Africa is very different than, for example, here in the US. And so for us, we found the most could come from focusing on driving up the women in engineering and targeting that, in that group that was completely focused on where this was their job. And they had to make sure they were reminding others, the way that we could approach this in their hiring was focused on on a different candidate pool, we had some of the highest success rates for bringing up our Women in Engineering focus that we had set forth. And so you have to understand how human nature works. Make adjustments, but don't lose sight of what you're trying to do from a philosophy standpoint.
Michele:
I love it. Um, I want to get to the question we have in the chat, because we only have a few minutes left, probably jumping the gun for this blog. I'm curious as to what Randy thinks about the future work in people data, specifically with the rise of call for separation between dei initiatives and HR.
Randy:
Yeah, and I, I mean, it's hard without it's great question. Thanks for that. I think where that's going is what's going to happen, but in especially as there's a call out of what is trying to happen on DNI what's generally happening in HR. And I think, on that, I would just say that a couple things. One, there's a bit of a warning around, remembering that people who deal with data and analytics often lacked the people context for what is behind the data. And I think for HR practitioners and leaders, the best thing we can do is to make sure that there is always kind of context and we have better understanding of like, we are dealing with people, it is not just data that the data can help inform us. But we're also dealing with people situations, and other things that are unique to the people component of it. So I think one is to make sure that we don't separate. We don't keep too isolated that oh, this is this is people data and and this is HR stuff, like there has to be some commingling. I think, on the DNI aspect of it, I think that we're seeing, you know, entire functions that are starting to separate and be separate from the HR function. I think that's kind of another topic. But I think it's again, this approach that from the leadership, if they feel for example, if innovation is important in organization, what you will often see is that you have your engineering organization, but then there might be this group that's going to be focused on innovation. And in some organizations, they'll say, we want this group separate, so that it's directly aligned to the CEO that shows that it's important, the CEO knows and has a direct line of responsibility to that group and the changes that are happening. So if the question is around, a DNI and HR being separate, I think a lot of that's going to come down to almost that example that I'd shared about the recruiting function where you can make it part of everyone's mission, or you can actually say, we need to make this a priority, and therefore, we want to have these functions. separately. I don't know if I'm sure if you can understood the question in the same way, but
Michele:
I did, too. Number one, HR and data not mixing, where they don't always have the same skill sets data, people don't always analytical over here, have the best people skills and understand what may be driving the data. And HR people like that's those are numbers, I don't do numbers, you want the compensation group go down the hall. Right. And so that I do, I do agree with that. I think also, the separation of HR and Dei, where the eyes is connected to the CEO is a huge, huge move and important move for many organizations, not all of them. It depends on who's running HR. Yeah. And if that HR person is dei focused, and they have been driving and going through, you know, leading through that lens, then and not just white women lens, right but but the the eye on a larger scale, and understanding where their blind spots and having other people in there to guide that's that's a different place. If you don't have enough of those places, then sometimes it's better to separate it. But I think overall, you're going to have a blend of the analytics, you're going to have a blend of the HR as well as somebody who can communicate those two things blended together to leadership. Because if you don't I wanted a rare engineers second talk to people. I've been told there's an operator, equipment operator to executives. It was it's very that communication support is really, really key no matter where you are in the organization. But being able to bridge those two is definitely definitely key to driving sustainable equity in the workplace.
Randy:
Agreed. Yeah, and I think we're seeing this in I just, I wish I had the stat handy for me, but one of my colleagues and HR side of things brought up how much progress over the last few years has been made on bringing in either in heads of HR or heads of Dean DNI initiatives around people, underrepresented individuals into that role, and it's gone up tremendously. And so there is this is, again, another spot where you can say, uh, it would be ideal if our head of engineering and our head of sales and the all these other roles, but it's great to see that we can make some progress. And, you know, it's funny for me to be talking here as like, white male head of HR, like I'm, I was in favor a while ago, but it's now a time where there's an opportunity to really bring forward talented individuals who can, you know, better understand the challenges and changes that are going on in organizations. And I think it's great. And the progress that is happening is, is there it's not where we necessarily want it to be or where it could be. But I think we're making great change there. And I think a lot of that comes down to organizations being more transparent around their initiatives, and diversity and in staying committed to that. And, you know, for those watching, I would highly encourage this. Checking out, for example, Pinterest is a great example of companies that have put forward what their goals have been. And if you go and put in Pinterest diversity hiring, you can see from 20, I think 2015 was the first year that they put forward their goals that they were shooting for. And it's a great example of an organization that put goals out there, missed them, learn from them adjusted and not adjusted, because Oh, it's hard. But instead of, for example, we want to make sure we have, you know, this percentage of this demographic. And they found out that that was perhaps not the right approach or too broad or missing the point and the things that they drive not only from a putting numbers and things out there, but in committing themselves and holding themselves accountable. But also they talk about how that alone drives all other actions, all of their relationships, all of their communication throughout the organization. And that's just a great example where taking that step, but holding yourself accountable can actually pay dividends throughout the organization because it drives other behaviors. So I would highly recommend check out. They always make it public they put they put out there, I think they put up. Yeah, I just was actually looking so they have up recently, their stats that they've put up. And what I love is that they actually show where they were at from, you know, 2015 to last year to this was at the end of 2020. And so they've, they've committed to that. And that's not always easy, because you can see in some of these cases that they've actually, you know, missed the mark in some cases. And yeah, so they're pretty transparent about that they focus on what they're doing. And then not just the numbers, because there has to be more than just the data. But it is talking about the changes and things that have happened in the organization. So Pinterest is, is working hard on it. And I think that they've done a great job of holding themselves accountable, which is part of that process if you truly want to drive change.
Absolutely. Randy, how can people connect with you?
Randy:
I'm on LinkedIn. And I think that's a great place. I'm reading Affleck very good. And I'm on Twitter that I'm not so active there. And then again, as I mentioned, check out storytelling with data because I think that's the cornerstone of just not showing the data that your Excel spit out. But instead, what is the narrative you are trying to share? What is the change you're trying to make happen. And so at storytelling with data, we drive a lot of, we have a lot of great conversations, there's podcasts, there's video, there's a lot of learning opportunities to improve the way in which you communicate with your data. So that's also a great place to check us out. And we have a good following on LinkedIn. So be sure to follow storytelling with data on LinkedIn as well.
Michele:
I picked up the book and I have to find time to read it. So it's next to my spin bike. So once you know the new year starts,
it's an easy read.
Randy:
That's the best part about storytelling with data. It's and it's translated in Tober, I think 20 languages. It's used by over 150 universities as a textbook. So I will look forward to your review after you. You check it out. But thanks for checking it out.

Michele:
Thank you so much for joining us, Randy. Bye. I'll talk to you later. All right, thanks so much. This was great.
So that was Randy he shared his experience with Google data. HR and data don't always mix but it was absolutely fantastic. I love the comments and engagement we have. I am going to now do something very, very special, which is share a bit about one of our sponsors. And then we'll go to the next speaker. And our next sponsor is coming up, I promise is the next it girl. The next girl is a nonprofit that focuses on getting black and brown girls into it. Haha, you thought it was fashion, didn't you? The founder nopea Nivola received her Bachelor Science degree in computer science from Charleston Southern University in the state of South Carolina. She thought being at a predominantly white institution that maybe she was just one of few students major in computer science. But when she went on the industry, she was been very much alone. As a black woman in tech. She founded the next it girl about five and a half years ago in Indianapolis, Indiana, where she has the first chapter She then moved to Atlanta where she started the second chapter, and now has a third one located in Charleston, South Carolina, her hometown. If you know of any young girls, black or brown who are interested in learning more about tech from the ages of 10 to 21. Yes, they even go through college. Be sure to go to the next it girl.org Not only is it a fantastic organization to be involved with. They are also virtual. They've worked with companies like Amazon, they've done certain things like taking computers apart because you don't want them taking apart your computer at home. But it gives an opportunity to take apart the computer at somebody else at our program that is specifically geared around young girls to empower them to go in to tech. So thank you so much the PA for bringing forth a great program, especially bringing it bringing a chapter back home to the great state of South Carolina.

Michele: Welcome, welcome everybody. This is Michele Heyward, it is absolutely great to see each and every one of you today, we are going to have a fantastic day of four hours of talking about equitable workplace, workplace creating the future of work. I am the founder of early stage tech startup called positive hire. And part of what we do is utilizing technology as well as consulting to solve workplace issues. And we want to talk about the equitable, equitable workplace. Because oftentimes, when we talk about the future of work, we’re focused on technology, and not so much. What about the people? What happens in the workplace, so that people, and how do we bring equity into the workplace. So we have a phenomenal lineup of people today, who are former HR executives, who are current employers in in workplaces, who are people, analytics consultants, behavioral scientists, even executive coaches, helping train educate on humanity side of equity in the workplace, and those who are looking at the data side and bridging the two together. So we’re having these conversations, not to inspire you. But to literally give you actionable tactics and tips you can utilize in your actual workplace, with your teams, with your co workers with other like minded people. So take the time today to join us as you can. If you’re like, Michelle, I can’t stay on for all four hours, do not worry, we have you covered. If you’ve gone over to our website, equitable workplace dot positive hire.co. Or if you just go to the positive hire Code website, you can click on the button at the top and register for the summit there. Instead of having to scroll through four hours of great interviews. We’re going to split these interviews up. So no matter what you miss, you’ll be able to access it later. Yes, we want you to access it later. So that you can come back, you can share. And you can begin as you’re walking through this entire process, you have the resources and tactics and tools to get you started and put some wind beneath your sail. That is really what we’re focused on today. Now I specifically chosen this, the speakers, because they all have done different things to bring data and HR dei into the workplace. And they all have very interesting perspectives that they’re going to share. But more importantly, they’re here to connect with you today. And to really provide you some assistance and guidance in where you are. So if you have questions, you have comments, be sure you drop them in the chat, because we truly want to hear them now. Next up, we have one of my absolute favorite people to have on the show. I met her about six years ago. And she is running this fantastic program called On the matter of race. Oh, I’m gonna do some magic. pause for a moment.
Tada, you like the way I do that? I do that. Up next we have Lynn marine hurdle. Lynne has a fantastic story of how she went from being an actress. Well, that still can happen right? To actually become a communications expert. So then come on in and join us today.It is great to have you here Lynn and to see you again. I can’t wait till we see each other in person is better.But what can you tell the audience a bit about yourself and and, and then we’ll go from there. I want to get out I’m trying to jump over some stuff and get on it get into on the matter race. But yeah.Lynn:Hi, Lynn Hi, good morning or hello I’m not sure what timezone everybody’s in but Hi everyone.Michele: It is great to have you here Lynn and to see you again. I can’t wait till we see each other in person is better.But what can you tell the audience a bit about yourself and and, and then we’ll go from there. I want to get out I’m trying to jump over some stuff and get on it get into on the matter race. But yeah.Lynn: So I’ll tell you a little bit about myself that really can lead into on the matter of race. I’m a Bronx girl born and raised, my parents moved my sister and I, from the South Bronx, predominantly African American neighborhood when I was seven, and we moved into an all white neighborhood, because my parents really were concerned about education. And so 10 years later, at 17, I’m on a bus, almost home, but the buses stopped, because there is a mob of young white males with red bandanas tied on their heads with baseball bats running toward the bus, who then tried to turn over the bus because they were specifically looking for African Americans to get off the bus so that they could beat us really. And they only three of us are in there, including the bus driver. And I left that incident on, I knew that I wanted to be an actress. Like from the time I was three, but left that incident, knowing from just a voice in my head that I was supposed to do something about bringing people together around these issues. And I didn’t know where that came from. I didn’t want to do it. But when I went to school, I went to Syracuse University as a theater major, and changed my major sophomore year to nonviolent conflict and change, which is really all about conflict resolution in the way that we communicate and interact with each other. And that, really, I pursued that as a career after I got my degree and my master’s in education and creating Peaceable Schools. And so I’ve been coaching and speaking and writing, and putting together programs to help people really get along, but to also just learn how to bring themselves closer to conflict so that we can really learn about ourselves in conflict and learn how to do it better.Michele: That’s an absolutely terrifying yet a phoenix rising moment I, I can’t I can’t I don’t want to imagine. But I know that’s reality. And that drove you to this path. And from there, you built that career. And now you’re you’ve created a program called On the matter of race. Can you tell us a bit about the program? Yes. Another another thing I didn’t see myself doing. So I’m at a retreat with some colleagues and two white women who I had become friends with at that point, but who also were former clients, I was coaching them in conflict resolution. And they both said to me, pretty much at the same time, I really want to work with you again, have you ever thought about putting together some kind of program for white women like us, who really don’t know about racism, but one or understand it, where for the first time in our lives, we actually have friends of color? And we don’t understand when they have conversations about racism? And we want to and would you think about that, and I said, I don’t really think that’s what I want to do. Because I do that on a regular basis. It’s just that I don’t have groups that are for specifically just for white people. And in my experience, white people are resistant to really wanting to learn about racism. But the more we talk, the more I knew it was something that I was supposed to do. And so two and a half years ago, that first group started with eight people. And now I have I’m at nine, eight groups, about two, probably do nine, and two of those groups are C suite groups. Really, because one of the people that was in my first group, she’s continued on with me, and so she brought me into her company, the company that she works for her corporate space and, and I’m working in with C suite folks in that space. But it’s really about white people who are committed to understanding racism, as they’ve never understood it before. And not just learning the facts, not just learning the history, but also really going within to find out how they’ve been raised what they’ve been taught to believe what really happening for them as they’re learning and unlearning things about racism and how they’ve been able to actually uphold racism without even knowing consciously that they were doing it and also how they have consciously upheld into it as well. So as as you’re going through this journey with Well, let me back up, because you have you have this program, you didn’t think people were going to be why Kogami committed to it? What’s the process? Because I love this process you have on? Hey, it’s not like, I’m just going to take your money because you pay me. What is your process? Yes, yeah. Increase in determining who participates in your program? Yeah. Lynn: So that was my thing is like, I’ll do this under certain parameters. The first being that everyone has to be interviewed by me, because I really need like people who are ready to learn to understand that they are not the authority to really commit to going within and doing the work because there’s homework that has to be done his readings, his videos, there’s questions that need to be answered, real exploration. So I need to know that you’re going to really commit to doing that, because this is a six month journey, each level and there’s levels one through five, and each level is six months of meeting and working and really doing it right committing to it. So that has to be one of the things you have to be interviewed. The second thing is, how are you going to use this because we can sit and do the school thing, learn take notes and make A’s I don’t grade people. But you know, but we can do all of that. But then what do we do with that? So you come in saying, Hey, okay, I want to do this. There’s an uncle that I always wanted to talk with about racism, but I just don’t really know enough. How do I do that, or I want to bring it into my company. We’ve had people who one person who was put in the heading of di as a white woman, and she didn’t understand why Black indigenous people of color, were not happy with that. And then once she started in the program, she said, Oh, I know why they’re not happy. Because I really didn’t realize how much I didn’t know, I didn’t realize that just wanting to have a diverse company, just wanting people to get along better wasn’t going to be enough for me that I had to really understand start to understand racism and start to understand when people of color are talking, what it is that they’re talking about, and also being able to listen to them and believe them. And so those are the two things that are really important is the interview. And what’s the action that you’re going to commit to because three months into the journey? I say, Okay, now, what’s the first step you’re going to take on that action? If you haven’t already, because many people already, we’re taking action, right? But already, what’s your first step? And then you are already what’s your next step? And then for the rest of the three months, they’re able to come in talk about that get feedback, and support because it’s not easy stuff to go back out there and keep doing the action.Michele: That that keep doing the action is is what I’m gonna focus on in just a second. Yeah. So before the action, what are some of the reoccurring things that you found? That may be surprising as white people take this journey?Lynn:Yeah, well, there’s, there’s the one I think there’s one that is really a dominant factor in the white people who take this journey is that they were raised to believe that just being nice is enough that just treat people the way that you want to be treated. And and you’ll and you won’t be a racist, right and and when they find out that being nice is great. It really is but you smiling at people of color and being kind to them does nothing to dismantle racism. So I think that once they see that, that is that is difficult, because you you want to believe that you’re one of the good people and you probably are but when it comes to racism, you’re probably not because you are doing the things that continue to uphold racism. So it is beyond not even just speaking out. But one of the bigger things is believing us it. I asked them, you know, so many people came into my program after George Floyd was murdered. And it was as if that was the first thing that’s ever happened. And that it was so brutal, it opened their eyes. So when I take them back, right in history, and even just things that are currently going on, and they have to ask themselves, Well, why didn’t I believe people of color when they were talking about this? Why didn’t I believe like people when they’ve been saying this, because this isn’t new for us? We’ve been saying this for centuries, actually. Right? And so why didn’t we believe in it’s a very difficult thing for them to go back and to trace back and understand, wow, my parents who thought they were doing good, right, told me that in this country, you know, this country really does do great things for you. And so to believe that everybody has the same opportunities and the same starting line. That’s what they believed, but then to learn that that’s actually not true. I think it’s very difficult. And so what I know one person said, what she discovered was that what her parents taught her then was anybody who complains about this country, really doesn’t want to work for their right for their success. And so as we as black people, indigenous people of color, are bringing up the issues that affect our lives that seen as complaining. And so that’s for her, that’s, that was what she figured out. That’s why I don’t believe you all, when you’re, when you’re saying the things that are happening in your life, because that takes playing in my mind, anybody who complains about this country just doesn’t want to work for success.Michele: Absolutely. One of the common sayings is pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And I challenged people on this, especially if they’re talking about black people, because if they were enslaved in work camps in this country, oftentimes when they left, they were freed, or escaped, they were barefoot, there were no bootstraps, support yourself back off, right? And what I mean by that, not just physically, barefoot, meaning no resources. That’s right. That’s meaning people may not provide you any housing, you’re sleeping out wherever, if you can make it through and live and not get lynched. And so the experience is definitely different. When you go back generation after generation, we’ve progressed don’t get me wrong, but it’s not to the stance for which we have provided. And that is often off put on so many different levels when we look at race, especially here in the US.Lynn:Yeah. And the thing I also want to say about that is, it’s interesting, because this is something that’s been really bothering me this week, I believe I’m going to blog about it later today. And that is that this whole piece around diversity, what has happened again, because we’ve grown up in this white supremacist system, right? Diversity gets defined as we’re only looking for people of color, right? And that’s their only requirement. When I’m looking for qualified people of color. Who can do the job well, who’ve been left out, right, we’re looking for just if you have the black or brown face, or if diversity extends even further than that, right? If you’re LGBTQ, if you’re you have a disability that we’re just looking for that we’re not looking for people who are qualified, and there are so many, just as many qualified people out there, right to our do have a diverse background, as there are the people that continue to get the jobs, right. And that’s the thing that’s missing for me because that’s always the push back is this is about making sure you look a certain way. And it’s not about making sure that people can do their jobs. And I have to say for some companies, it isn’t about that. It is about checking off the box. But if you’re going to do it right, you have to Be Determined to find the people who are out there. And they are out there who are qualified to do the job, who are also from diverse backgrounds.Michele: Absolutely it. And the other thing I want to add in here, working with employers, sometimes they do want to qualify. But what I found is oftentimes black employees are doing the work. But they’re not given the title and the compensation to go with it. And I work oftentimes to help women, especially display that on LinkedIn and their resume to talk about what they accomplished, as opposed to the things they do. And so it goes both like we’re looking but they have to have the job title. And this is like, hold up, we’ve already proved we can show and prove they’re not they’re not oftentimes getting promoted. So let’s talk about what do you actually have have have had them do to get the job done, as opposed to a job title? And so it’s, it has to be? I haven’t found, I found a few.Lynn:Yeah, you’ve found some folks who know how to do that. But not everybody does. And the thing about my program, right, is that I’m preparing white people who are in these positions to sit at the table and actually understand the conversation that you are having with them. It isn’t something that they aren’t familiar with, it isn’t something that they find difficult to understand they know that wow, because they’ve experienced it.Michele: okay, so we are having some tech issues. Right now. Okay, you’re back. Okay. Okay, so I’m just gonna try my third backup item. Wi Fi, I went to heartline. I’m back on Wi Fi. Like, look,Lynn: y’all gonna let me do this or not. So I got a backup to the backup. Okay, well, you need to know I kept talking, I just kind of took off from your point and kept talking. So I did, I did say, you know, that we need folks. Because if people are in my program, then you have folks at the table who understand what you’re talking about, instead of it being something that just absolutely goes over their head, or they really don’t understand it, and don’t aren’t trying to understand it, right. But if you are able to experience knowledge around this and conversations, we have great conversations in this group, then you’re really working things through so that when you sit at the table, and someone is saying to you, you know, there’s more to this than just to getting people in who look different than you or think different than you. Right? There are. There’s also beyond the hiring, there is the promoting and there is the supporting of folks, then they understand not just that needs to be done. But how to do that. And that’s really important too. I love it. I absolutely love that. You that’s who you’re finding in it coming to your program. I like I like number one that the process you have, because I do we often talk about the white savior. Yeah. And that’s not what we’re looking for. That that that does not serve a personnel now. And it’s funny, because that is a place that a lot of people do come to like, wow. Like there are efforts that I want to make in my business, right. Wow, I’ve got exam and where this is coming from is this white savior? Right? Am I coming from that space? Someone of color confronted me about something that I said, right. And it really I went, I either went into tears or I pushed back then was very defensive. It was bad about white fragility. Is that what’s happening here for me? Like when you understand these concepts, right, then you can ask yourself these questions rather than continue to fall back into what was your normal behavior, right? It’s like, I don’t want to talk about this. I’m not a racist. Don’t you accuse me of being worse, rather than let me hear what they’re saying and examine whether or not Hey, did I actually get fragile there and just get defensive rather than say, I want to understand how they how this was received by that. Okay, this is this is fantastic, no matter the tech issues.Michele: I want to go to the work, go back to that actionable steps, the work that has to be done. And what sometimes is the pushback? And then what is some of the work that you’re seeing participants in your program actually do? Mm hmm.Lynn:Yeah. So, so I’ll talk about is everything from people posting on social media, just really either posting about what they’re learning about themselves, or just challenging friends who are white to really begin to look at these issues, or to say to people of color, if you are in friendships, right, with people who are white, it’d be great if you gave them information about this program, because it’s an opportunity for us to really be with each other other committed white people to have the conversation. They are, there’s someone who blogs about money and racism, right? Because the connection between that in this country is something that’s really not talked about, there are people who have conversations with family members that they’ve never been able to have conversations with before around this. And while it may not go well, at first, they keep coming back, right? Either the person does or they do and the conversations then get to a deeper place for them. There are people who are parents who desperately want to raise white allies in their children and don’t know how to do that. But because they’re in this group, we have conversations about that. We do role plays, before people even have conversations, because one of the things that I teach is, if you’re going to hammer it, folks, they are not coming for that, or at least they’re not coming to try to hear you. They’re coming to annihilate you because you’re trying to annihilate them. So how do you have the conversation and I think that’s the other thing that’s unique about my program is I’ve kept 40 years in the world and work of conflict resolution and teaching people how to communicate better with each other. So that combined with my 40 years of diversity, equity, and inclusion work really does set a different standard for how the work is done. As I said, we have people who are in corporate spaces who are bringing this into their corporations, we’ve had dancers who have looked at the world that they’re in and seeing the opportunities for white dancers, as opposed to people of color, I mean, even in the community of belly dance things, things that are not actually founded by white people, but have been white people have found success and things like that, and yoga, right? Looking at that and going, Wow, are the opportunities here really equitable? And if they are not, how do I take a stand in making sure that they are of this all different ways, I never tell people what action they should take. I just help them to take the steps that they need to take in order to fulfill those actions. Wow, thank you so much that that’s absolutely monumental. Um, how So you started this program two and a half years ago? How long have some of your participants have been there just so it’s a journey I have a full started with me two and a half years ago. Who are now we are officially, we are officially have the doors open for folks for our next journey, our next month’s journey, which starts the week of January 17. And I have folks who we have six folks who started with me, and and who are now going on to level five, right in January. But but also we have almost 100% participation and folks who are currently in one of my levels, who are then going on to the next level, because they’ve just they haven’t found anything quite like this. Right. And I know folks are doing great things out there. But what we offer is something that folks tend to really enjoy because why people don’t have these conversations on the norm we do as people of color. So to find a place where they can have them they can be safe enough to have them without being led by a woman of color. And who is very direct but also I teach with love but I I’m not going to let you off the hook right and to be able to exactly In yourself with other white people who are doing the same thing, and have the hard conversations, it really, I think it fulfills something in folks. And that’s why we see people going on to the next and the next and the next level.Michele:Yes. Love it. Live. Thank you so much. How can people connect with you?Lyn:  Yes, please connect at Lynn Maureen hurdle.com, you will learn more about me on the matter of race program is there too. But also, on the matter of races, I said, we’re opening up for our January journey. I only take 12 In, in each level. And so for level one, I’d love to have you get in touch with us the link fall in the meta race, or go to my website, and it’s there, as well. And I’m really looking forward to the folks being a part of this and connecting with me. Thank you so much, Leonard, it’s great to have you on this. Oh, it’s always a pleasure. You know, I’llMichele: do anything for you. I’m holding you to that. Port it. Thank you so much. Have a great week. That was LAN hurdle, wasn’t that fantastic. So she is doing work directly with white leaders to help them understand how to have conversations about racism, understand racism, and actually going to do the work is not an easy process. It is not a sprint, it is truly a marathon. So definitely, definitely be sure you connect with Lynn, you if you’re interested in learning more about the math on race. There’s the link so that you can go and engage and learn more about her program. So I highly, highly encourage if it’s not for you, maybe it’s for somebody that you know who may be interested. But again, remember she has a process she does. You have to apply and she interviews you so it is she doesn’t take everybody but she does make impact. So Thank you Lynn for the work that you continue to do.

Michele: Hello, everybody, thank you so much for joining me today, I have a very special guest with us today, I have Clarissa silver, who is a behavioral scientist, we’re going to be talking about what employers need to know about their employees health, post COVID-19, we’ve always been focused on how do we get people safely back into the workplace. But what are employers potentially missing when it comes to their employees health? Post COVID. So Clarissa, thank you so much for joining me today.Clarissa:Thank you so much for Michele, it’s a true honor.Michele:So can you tell people who a bit about you like some of your experiences, you have a vast experience in behavioral science and and I would love for people to learn more about you, in your experience.“Clarissa:Thank you so much. So I spent my career in infectious disease prior to becoming entrepreneurs. So for about 17 years of my career, I was working in HIV AIDS in several different capacities, from prevention, to intervention down to co founding nonprofit. And when I started my entrepreneurship journey that started in 2016, we started a behavioral science consulting firm. And we focused mostly just on behavioral research design for companies. So thank you so much for having me, I’m so excited to be here.Michele: It’s great to be here. It’s great to have you because I think there are some nuances that are being missed right now. When it comes to employees returning to the workplace, we’re focused on making sure people don’t get COVID, right, which is truly important. But what are some other things employers really need to be aware of a contract is up when it comes to their employee health.Clarissa: So starting in late February of 2019, we conducted a study with CEOs, startup founders, and high potential personalities in both the corporate sector and startup sector. So the high potential personalities kind of cut through several areas of companies. So from executive to project management, right. So when we, what we learned from that was that we started seeing brain fog for both COVID and non COVID cases. So we found that about 92% of the entire sample had experienced brain fog over the period of nine months of the entire study. So they reported at least experiencing three symptoms, in addition to the emotional and mental health issues that they were experiencing, because of the quarantine itself. So some of the key takeaways for us was to examine how we could start creating interventions around the cognitive decline we were seeing and address some of the factors that were impacting performance and employee relations.Michele:
So brain fog is huge. And I know I’ve experienced it personally, I love to run numbers straight through my head, and I found that Oh, wait, where’s my phone, because I need to add this up. We’re prior to COVID, I could simply do it in a split second. So I can definitely definitely relate to the brain fog. And having experienced that. But what really is interesting to me, is the personality types you focus on, what was the reason for focusing on this particular personality type.Clarissa:
Because we start seeing two different two different patterns, we start seeing strain and in employee relations, so within the executive suite to to the junior stuff, we were getting reports of dissatisfaction with leadership and strain across the relationship, meaning we saw personality changes within different people as a result of COVID. So one of the things that that we saw being impacted and that was underlying everything was that some in some cases, we were seeing two levels of trauma, right? We were seeing the pandemic trauma, right, that was overlaying the whole the whole experience for everyone. Everyone was being impacted. 100% of the sample reported some type of emotion emotional or mental health issue throughout that period. But the other the other level of trauma that we saw was that unresolved decades long trauma that now became the forefront of the of their consciousness. They weren’t aware that it was unresolved trauma and that they weren’t coping with it. The way it was manifesting itself was within the employee management and employee relation, and right and, and just how they were managing their staff, their their personalities became much more caustic. They be they start, we start seeing more gaslighting, we started seeing different aspects of personality shifts, because of that unresolved decades long trauma.Michele:
Wow. So is this could some of that be leading to the great resignation? Right now that we’re there, some organizations are experiencing?Clarissa:
Absolutely, even within our own sample, we did see a that we had about about 20% that are willing to leave, because they don’t see that conditions will improve in addition to the company’s strategy, right? So whether it’s a hybridized model, or or some, or some version of transitioning back, if that it was confounded, right, because people felt like they weren’t satisfied prior to this COVID strategy, and then continuing with that same level of engagement to them wasn’t worth staying at that company any longer. So sorry. So I would say that, perhaps COVID drew this out, but it probably existed prior to COVID. And that’s something that we didn’t check across the entire sample. So I think there was higher dissatisfaction with maybe burden and, you know, over over stimulus, right, because brain fog could also the result of that over stimulus. So we didn’t see, we didn’t really tease out those two parts. But we definitely feel like there was a driver prior to COVID that, that people now feel that this was unacceptable. And it’s unsatisfactory, where prior to COVID, they were just accepting the overburden and over stimulus.Michele:
So what can employers do to determine their employees health? Right now?Clarissa:So there’s this, there’s a few different ways that companies are structuring it, right. So so we designed an intervention and system that starts to address some of this brain fog, because we untreated, sure the symptoms go away, but cognitive decline isn’t guarantee that that is going to disappear, right? We we can almost with certainty project that the cognitive decline will have impact in the future. Right. So the first thing that that many of us are advocating for, and not just with the COVID cases, but in general, we’re all advocating to start evaluating this over stimulus. So some, some companies are designing schedules where they’re blocking out time, right, and that is something to help, some are taking complete mental health breaks, some are already designing cut offs at a certain point in the day, so six o’clock, you lose access to everything, right, five o’clock, everything gets cut off. So a lot of different places are trying out different strategies to see what would be the, the most optimal for them. But in general, we, you know, it would never ever hurt any company to do an assessment against brain health for for all employees at every level to and design interventions and bring in consultants to start addressing some of that, like work burden, because that’s just, we’re just talking about work burden, there will also work life prioritization and management issues that some companies have taken into account, right? So childcare services, you know, just different, different aspects of different parts that you didn’t disconnect from when you were working from home and homing from work, you know what I mean?Michele:
Exactly. So, this runs into what it sounds like employee engagement, employers need to go and really find out where their employees are, how they’re engaging with the organization, where the gaps are set, really start making a gathering that data first correct, right. And then Go ahead.Clarissa:
Right. And I think you know, that’s also a larger issue too, right? Because they’re not collecting that data, because it’s just like what you described earlier. So we were getting, so brain fog was impacting performance, right? Just like you gave the example. We also had examples from like Excel sheets, right? simple calculations that they were able to do within minutes. Now I was on a three, three week lag startups, you know, they’re a deck, a deck that would take them four days was taking them four weeks, but because you’re still capturing overall deliverable overall, so by the end of one month, hey, as long as it got done, right, it didn’t matter. They weren’t reporting, hey, I’m having issues getting it done. Um, they were just, they were just experiencing it and saying, okay, it’s sleep deprivation, right? So many of our, many of of our sample sought out primary care, right? Because when they started experiencing some of these issues, right? They were going to their doctor, and they were being told, okay, yes, it’s the overall stress of the pandemic, or Yes, it’s like, temporary deprivation. So they were getting scripts for different aspects, just to cope with doing the next things. People were not, however, accessing mental health. So one of the things that that, you know, we, we all need to do is like, yes, normalize mental health, right, and normalize the ability for employees to have a dialogue with whomever within the organization to say that these are these effects are occurring, because these do have future much more deleterious health outcomes in the future. So. So it’s not that the employees on their side wasn’t, weren’t trying to resolve their issues. They were, and they were given scripts to deal with, you know, anxiety, depression, sleep. Right. But that doesn’t eliminate the cognitive decline. And because of the over stimulus, and because of the overburden that everybody was experiencing.Michele:Okay. Good to know, I want to go to something you said, and it’s really important, which is making seeking mental health, normal, normalizing that, and I want to speak on that through the lens of the black community and Hispanic community, where that has a high stigma, how can we get more employees that fit into those racial and ethnic communities to seek mental health? Because they’re seeing that the highest number of deaths in during COVID and loss, and they are not necessarily speaking about in the workplace, and sharing that, because that’s just culturally what we don’t do. But what are some things that can happen, or how are things that employers should be considering in order to get more cuz usually a small percentage of their employees, but they’re still in, they’re still their employees to engage and really utilize those services.Clarissa:
So the first thing that I that we always recommend is structuring a real diversity, inclusion and equity programs, not just a one time thing, or annual event or, or part of a smaller division within aspects of your company, what we need to do is create better levels of support because because like you said, Michelle, the issue for for our communities, is that we we suffer more health disparities across every single disease. So you, you just nailed it on the head. Many, we weren’t even allowed to grieve in a proper way during COVID. That impacts of course, right? People were dealing with the same issues across everywhere, trying to balance out everything in one space while you’re trying to be productive, and you’re dependent on that income. That also has level of chronic stress, chronic anxiety, that creep that produces chronic illness in the future. So some of the things that we could start with trying to address for the Latino and black communities is first, just understanding that when there are issues that you’re experiencing, it’s not it’s not them in the moment that that is the most crucial, right? You think it will it will just get resolved or you have coped with many things right. We are a community that copes with so many different elements. And we adapt to it. But the problem is the future, right? So when we talk about health disparities, it is projected that in 30 years 50% of the black and Latino community will have Alzheimer’s or dementia, that doesn’t start 10 years prior, we’re finding cases that are starting a pre dementia at 30. So we, we can’t just adapt to what is sub optimal and adapt to the the circumstances that we’ve been enduring. You know, we’re challenging like we keep I have said so many times that we were running three separate pandemics, it were all they were all parallel. And, you know, and if we really ever look at many of us that were in mental health, and look at what we’ve argued for, we’ve always been constantly arguing to have racism effects be part of core mental health, right. So that means the DI programs should definitely include aspects that offer this consistently not as a one time thing, not as an annual, not as a, you know, a wellness day. And, and it can’t be just about these mental health breaks of overall, it has to be something that tries to deal with the centuries long adapting to everything, right. And that’s just what we understand about how we cope. But to deal with inequity every single day, and deal with just knowing that we’re, we’re always going to struggle. And it’s part we’ve normalized that where it should be the opposite. companies should be normalizing true equity, true, true programming that helps support every single employee of gendered programs, racialized programs, everything should be part of just in just fostering the that employee, because we could do plenty of cost benefit analysis, that shows the the value of diverse opinions, value of diverse contributions, right? Overall, right. But we’re not necessarily treated like we are high contributors all the time. So I think if we could just shape some of the way that these programs are being held, and how we’re how social support systems look in companies, so people don’t feel like they’re going to be penalized at the HR level, be penalized by upper management, that would be a better way to start structuring out programs that help with productivity, help with retention, and help with overall long term success of product vertical, you know, just just anything.Michele:
I always, whenever I’m talking to clients, or potential clients who are looking at coming on board or recruiting services, they always say that they have great benefits. And I always questioned them, who says you have great benefits? And I said, What do you mean, I said, if your population of employees are mostly white, and then how do you know those who don’t? And have you looked at the data like those who have issues or questions about your healthcare benefits, are they you’re under estimating employees, and in to dig into that data, you don’t know who’s really saying you have great benefits, because the people that you’re, you’re saying you want to create an ethical workplace for I telling you, these benefits are not for me, they do not help me. And one of the things that have come out in the pandemic is for telehealth. And so so often we focus on what you can just drive or go to your, your provider with certain providers aren’t in your neighborhood, right? Certain providers aren’t on a bus route, it’s taking you an extra hour to go to the provider in that particular employers benefit plan. So now this extra two hours to and from and that’s only if the employee is sick. If it’s a child, they still have to transport the child to it from home and then maybe they can come into work. But pretty much they’ve missed the entire workday, if you’re even if this was in the office, assuming they can work remotely and they may not be able to. So I like the changes that we’re seeing in the aspect of telehealth becoming normalized, but there’s still a lot of data and analysis employers really need to do on their overall benefits their overall employee engagement is to understand who is not benefiting from those benefits. And I put that in air quotes, because it may not be a benefit to those, it may be more costly for them, because they’re losing a day of pay when they can’t afford that. So, um, thank you so much for that input. So employers are saying, we’re going to open up September 1, August 1, Sunday, June first he started, people going back to work. And we’re seeing more people. What how are we seeing, I should actually what has been some of the the responses from employees, as employees are migrating back into the workplace.Clarissa:
Now, you know, we also have to remember that not everyone wasn’t employed the entire time. Right. So you’ll see a lot of the service sector within these companies have still were employed. So so a lot of a lot of the ways that I think, I think companies tried to, to bridge the gap between what was happening overall, and that was served their employees is the idea of expanding their mental health portfolio, right, expanding out the different emotional wellness programming that they had. Right. But one of the biggest things that that we have seen is that people don’t access that’s across across race across gender, people weren’t accessing those benefits, because they didn’t see the need, right? Like, if you can attribute what’s happening to you. Parallel to another process, like the pandemic, you’re not gonna think something’s clinically wrong. Right? You’re, you’re thinking that everything is okay. But the argument within the company is, okay, well, we are trying to address need, because we’re seeing all these different reports, right. But it wasn’t just the anxiety and depression that was occurring, because it was COVID induced. The other part too, was that people felt there’s to break there’s, there’s risk tolerance levels that we have to also remember, that creates anxiety for staff, right? So people that were, were doing the hybridized versions, or are looking at transitioning starting in August, right? They are having issues with perhaps COVID COVID strategy within the workforce, right, because of the, because of the difference in risk tolerance, right. So those that are going to be triggered triggered by I was compliance, I was super cautious. And now, you know, we have a blanket approach that I could possibly get infected, and I did everything to avoid it. So you know, so all of these things start to trigger, the way people will start planning for themselves and planning for the future. And if it doesn’t, because one thing that that most employees will always feel is that if, if a policy issue is is now in place, right, there’s not much choice that the employee will have to deviate from that policy shift. So So it’s almost like they are, they are forced to choose between different things that sometimes don’t seem like any good options at the end of it, right? Because either they’re triggered, or you know, they’re dealing with mandatory different things that they’re, that they’re comfortable with, but other people are fighting about. So therefore, you know what I mean. So there’s a lot of combinations that are causes anxiety trigger, and, and it’s starts. So if we look at anything, right, we look at, where does dissatisfaction start? Well, being forced to go and subject yourself to, to maybe not certain, like not the ideal situation for yourself, but they have to go, right? That’s if you track that that’s where you see dissatisfaction, that’s where you see attrition, that’s where you see a loss in performance or loss of productivity, right. So so these are good indicators to follow. Just so we could project into the future. Alright. What can we say was, was the primary cause of dissatisfaction? Right and if it’s, perhaps you didn’t listen to us employees, like you didn’t do it in the past? Maybe that’s, maybe that’s the ultimate answer, and start structuring things around. Well, okay, there is evidence for these aspects, right? Like, there’s evidence to show that you can implement this. And you’ll have higher satisfaction within the employees. And you know what I mean? So, so these are all good data points, but it’s like you said, Michelle, and part of why all of your work is so vital is that so many of these data points aren’t collected, it’s COVID, is making us look at things differently. Because there is now much more vocal lis around what’s sub optimal, right? And there’s so much more vocalist. And even if it’s not vocalist, they are leaving, right? They’re quitting, right. So that’s the outcome to that’s a data point,Michele:
it really is, I want to, I know, we need to wrap up. So HR has been through the gauntlet and back in March, February, here in the US starting, let’s say, March, they are tired, right? But they still are supporting employees are still supporting the executive team. They’re supporting clients, what support can be provided to HR so that they can now help their employees with with these with coming back into the workplace, when it comes to the employee health.Clarissa:
So a few companies are structuring support around HR, that helps the employee right, like outside of aaps, outside of what is part of the normal protocol within companies. So there’s, there’s a lot of these new programs that are addressing some of that work life prioritization. And management aspects. Right. So I mean, some some of the financial sector has gender transitioning programs, they have a food, like they have food shopping programs, right? So grocery shopping programs, right? And food preparation programs, so So things that even the smallest, like even the smallest incremental difference that you make, that saves time and money, right? Like if, if they if you can eliminate one aspect that is burdensome, right? So but not having it be reliance on HR. Right, you would need a, a, an additional EAP, almost
EAP employee assistance program.Michele:So So those of you who don’t know what, EAP employee assistance program,Clarissa:yes, sorry. So, you know, we need to, we need to start looking at, you know, different ways that we could support different verticals, just so that we could capture those employees that are, are going to be overburdened, and continue to do and perform as they always did, and have this fear of, of going to HR with issues, right? Or utilizing an EAP because of that, that relationship to HR that they’re, they’re worried about. So, you know, when we look at different programming, and if we could create small incremental changes to to alleviate some of the burden for the for the employee, for the purpose of getting higher productivity, you know, what I mean? It’s not, okay, yes, let’s just give everybody a little vouchers to go get, you know, food, that’s not going to be helpful either, right? Like, it needs to be, it needs to be assessed, and it needs to be examined within the companies like what would help your employees with whatever it is that x design, a small thing. There’s tons of consulting firms out there, that, that work on different aspects, tons of apps, tons of software that could provide even partnering up with emotional wellness apps and programs. Even that could be helpful, right? So we don’t have to look at it nice. Every time we do things. It needs to be a blended version. It needs to be both physical and digital, it has to be blended with with different aspects, because not everybody will utilize things in the same way. Right? Some people won’t use it. Some will only use digital, some will be happy with a blended model. So so we have to just start thinking creatively. AndMichele:
I would say this, I know early on, it was a lot have children in our age range Gen Xers, maybe early millennials, who were trying to figure out how to get their parents groceries delivered, you know, how do they get their medic like everything online, so their parents didn’t have to leave. But now their parents are stuck like all of us in the house. And you said something really important about our brain health and dementia. And we have older parents, and we’re seeing the dementia speed up, when we may have noticed them forgetting small things. And now it has escalated in the last 18 months. And I think employers need to also understand that additional burdens that are outside he was thought sometimes the household of their employees, especially to women, especially Latino, and black communities and indigenous communities that we pick up culturally, and understand that our elders are everything to us. And so we feed back into our communities. And making sure you understand some of the services may not be a service they use for themselves, but they have to utilize it for their extended family because that is truly their mental health to know that their their mom and their grandmother are getting food delivered, and they’re not going out to be further exposed. And I think sometimes that is left out in understanding often how our cultures work, how our communities are built, and how we communicate without, because this is very difficult for us. Because we had to stay away from my loved ones to keep them say it any other time for us culturally, when there something difficult going on, we come together as a community in person. So for us to be separated, has been a huge emotional and mental, not barrier but drawn us as as communities. And I think a lot of employers that aren’t familiar with our communities in our culture, don’t understand that. How much more difficult it has been for us in the last year and a half.Clarissa:
Absolutely, absolutely. That exacerbated everything. And it’s funny that, you know, we’re looking at the example of what we had to structure for our families. And many of us have our families living with us while we take care of them. Like we’re that sandwich. We’re that sandwich, right? Yeah, so so but now, I mean, it’s up to now we need that type of support, too. So it’s, now we’re hit with with that sandwich. And we got to come up with a new term, because now we’re all trying to figure out how we adjust to different aspects of just working and living.Michele:Absolutely. So Clarissa How can people connect with you to definitely learn more about what you do with behavioral science, especially as it pertains to COVID an employee’s post C OVID because the workplace is going to be a new error. And I don’t think enough employers understand where they need to start with collecting data, and especially creating workplaces virtually, and in in real life that to how to really be prepared for their employees.Clarissa:Yeah, thank you. So my site, Clarissa Silva comm has my latest research, including the study that we talked about earlier in the in this talk. And if you want to reach out to me, it’s info at Clarissa Silva calm.Michele:
Thank you so much for joining us. Clarissa and I have been talking about this, I don’t know since probably December last year. And understanding how our work really overlap. Um, it really is important for for the black and brown communities globally. And it really I don’t we generally know we get left out. We’re the last study if we’re studying at all, and we need to be the first study, because the impact on us is much is at a higher level than it then it has been at any other point in time. So thank you so much for joining me today.Clarissa:Thank you, Michelle. I truly appreciate it.Michele:
Everybody, if you’re catching this on the replay, be sure you also connect with corissa here if you’re catching us live, you can connect with us here as well. So that’s if you’re watching this on LinkedIn, you can definitely connect with her on LinkedIn as well. So everybody, have a great week, and I will talk to you later. Thank you. You’re welcome.

Michele: Hello, everybody, thank you so much for joining me today we have a special guest. We have Jessica Walker, or Jessica, a walker with us because I finally figured out what job speak digital means. But anyway, Jessica is here with us to take today talking about maternal health, why it should matter. And I say that because I get the fortune of talking to so many employers who always say, our employees love our benefits. And always ask them, well, what’s the breakdown of your employees? And who don’t like your benefits and which benefits don’t they like or they’re requesting? Because that is usually the smaller number of people in the organization you’re not serving. And so I’m here today with Jessica, she like girl? Yes. So she so she’s here today to really talk about maternal health, why it should matter to everybody, not just to women, not just to to mothers. And so it’s really, really great to have you here, Jessica. So I’m going to let you introduce yourself and let everybody know a bit about you.Jessica: All right. Thanks. My name is. as Michelle said, it’s Jessica a Walker, which is my initials, jaw. Once I got married, I was like, Oh, you know what, I need to find a differentiator for myself, because there’s 50 million Jessica’s on the internet. And I knew I was going to do things on the internet. And when I googled Jessica, all other folks came up, and not me. So I decided to go with jaw. And that is just my initials, of course, after marriage. So that is what just a walker is. And now I am the founder of just speaks digital, which is a digital media company. We specialize in content creation and our VA VIP day, which is our virtual intensive content creation day where we help you create six months of content in a day. That is totally something I came up with, because I found a lot of people out here wanting to create content for their brands, and also in the maternal health sector. There were a lot of women being missed, because at the time, social media wasn’t a huge thing, which I know we’ll get into later, but I just want to preface it with I also help a lot of nonprofits get their message out with that VIP day as well. So yeah, that is who I am mom of six, advocate for maternal mental health and digital media, subject matter expert, and strategist, social media, social, digital media, digital media, ecosystems, all of the things, right, all of the things. Michelle, I would love to hear you.Michelle: I would love to hear me too. So we want to know your mom of six. But we want to know about Jessica, like just Jessica. So where were you born and raised then and and then we can get into the maternal mental health maternal health aspect that you are known for in that in that sector.Jessica: Okay, those those are song. Oh, I wasn’t I was born in the city, like in Jamaica. is one of the deadliest cities on the FBI list. Well, it used to be I don’t know if it still is. Those born in California. What sad, right? Yeah, and that’s where I was born in California.Michele: So she’s a Cali girl. Okay, so you’re born in California? She’s She’s a Cali girl, born in California. But how did you go from California girl, you get married have six kids. Now, where did maternal health and maternal health fall in there? Were in you know, like child one through six. You know? And how did that how did that get started?Jessica:Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this. Michelle, when we when we talked before about, you know, maternal mental health and just my journey as a mom. And this week, we’re coming off the tail end of black maternal health week. And this whole week, I’ve been doing a lot in maternal mental health, where I usually focus in on the digital side have been doing a lot and either being on webinars myself as a speaker or supporting webinars on the digital media side, and I realized that when I tell my story, I leave out a whole bunch that is truly, just very, it’s very hard to talk about because I was a teen mom. I was I got pregnant with my first one, my daughter, my first kid at 17. And so when I look at that story, and my husband is it the biological father of my oldest daughter, but he is definitely her father. When I look at that story, I’m like, wow, In this maternal stuff, like, unknowingly a long, long time, because when I was 17, I went to a secondary like school for pregnant teens. And in that classroom, I was the person telling all of those moms like, what they should be doing, what they should be reading, you know, helping the teacher out and all that good stuff. So I’ve been an advocate for a long time since I was 17 with the birth of my daughter, so it’s, it’s pretty crazy that it’s come full circle now, and I’m doing this advocacy stuff.Michele: I love it. I love it. So 17. Mom, you are now so now you’re raising her foot? Where does the health like? How do you realize like there’s a gap in the maternal health space, because you know, on TV, oh, the baby’s here. Oh, you had a baby. They don’t really talk about the postpartum and your body changing and trying to figure out what your new body is like, and all these other. Everybody’s fighting over the baby. Like when you go feed the baby, don’t you need to change the baby? Nobody’s focused on mom, and I don’t have kids. But I see it and like we can mom get a break. And because I have three sisters. And so they’re like, like, you can come back and get your kids? No, really, it’s been four hours. I’m done. Like I ran out of our one. Well, actually, I ran out out about five minutes. But when you come back to get your kids, and what does that really look like? So um, so I would really, really love to hear like, how for you was it some people like kid one and like I had enough. And some people like my mom, she like, she bought kids and she like, postpartum hit after my brother. But she knew, you know, they didn’t know back in the 70s. What that was so kind of where it Where did it start for you? Where did you figure out like, okay, something’s going on. And it’s nobody’s talking about it. But I know it should I need help.Jessica: Oddly enough, I didn’t. I didn’t realize what it was until I was on baby number three medicine before some baby number four. And if I look back, I can see traces of it in the other verse. But like you said, Nobody talks about that part, right? It’s like, oh, you’re pregnant, and then you get special treatment when you’re pregnant. And then it’s like, oh, I’m having a baby, then you get special treatment when you have a baby, right? And then it’s like, oh, you know, the baby’s here. And then everybody goes to the baby. And this whole entire time is like, what about me What’s happening? So I didn’t realize until the birth of my of baby number four, which is my son. And along with that came, you know, the death of my brother. So that triggered a lot of things, I think, as well. were, you know, I was the caretaker for him. And I took care of him while my mom were three sometimes, you know, for jobs, like, you know, just doing a bunch of stuff to take care of us. And I was taking care of my two younger siblings. So when I lost him, I kind of felt like, Oh, my God, like I lost a child because, like, I had taken care of him for so long. And then I found out I was pregnant, and I almost miscarried. And while I was in the hospital, they were like, oh, you’re you’re having a miscarriage and like, left me alone. And I was like, crying and like, Oh my gosh, like felt so alone about like yelling at my husband, like, do something he’s like, I don’t know what to do. So long story short, he was okay, I have him. And then after I had him, I just fell into like a deep, deep well of depression. But I could see traces of it. When I look back at pictures with the other verse before him. What happened was, I was sitting in my room, and it was really dark inside my room. And he came in and he walked in, and he said, Mom, I was so sad. And I was like, What are you talking about? Like, I’m happy. If you see my personality now, like, I’m on Ted, when you meet me in person. I’m always laughing and giggling. And he’s like, no, you’re always mad and screaming, and I was just like, Oh my gosh, he knows, because for a long time there, I was able to kind of hide it and like cry in the shower, or go into my room and just kind of put my head down and you know, lay low, so I was functional. And that sense of I would make sure the kids did their homework, make them breakfast, dinner, whatever, do whatever I needed to do to take care of them. But then I would go back into my room and there would be really dark and I would just sit in there and just kind of glue. So when he told me that, like the way that he told me, I was just like, and I just felt like I could turn in the stone. And I remember like looking in the mirror like it’s not his job to worry about me. I’m supposed to take care of him. He shouldn’t have to worry about his mom being okay and That was the thing that kind of snapped me out of it. And I started to research and look on the computer for anything that said something about this thing, right? And be honest with you back then or wasn’t a lot, it barely anything. And I researched and then I started finding about epigenetics and about slavery. And like, I started thinking about it, like, we went through several civil rights, we went through slavery, with the Jim Crow, none of that none of those times that we say anything about depression, or about just really truthfully about therapy, just going to therapy for all of the things that we have gone through, it really was like non existent. And then I started to look around my community. And I noticed as I was driving, like, like, I’m really surrounded by people, like how do you know, this is not supposed to happen, if you’re surrounded by people that are all going through the same thing you’re going through, you don’t know what the other thing looks like. So we ended up moving, because we had a situation that happened at our home. So we ended up moving from my mom’s house moving to our own home at this point. And we moved to the suburbs, and it was like, everybody’s laughing and birds chirping. And it was really, that was like, This is crazy. But there was a blog post, I remember going to this blog post, and it was by a Caucasian woman, and she was talking about her maid and how her nanny wasn’t there. And I remember thinking, like,
if she is having problems, if she’s struggling, and having problems after having the baby, I can only like I definitely got some issues, I can’t keep my lights on like food is scarce, like, you know, every day is a struggle, kind of a thing. So I started a nonprofit from that. And I, you know, went out and I wanted to just have support groups for moms to talk about what was going on, because I’m like this woman that seemingly has everything and half a nanny where I don’t have any support. And I’m taking care of all these kids. But you know, pretty much between my husband and myself and my mom who will come over and my dad will help out occasionally, like, this is a huge problem. Somebody needs to talk about this. So long answer to your question, but then fell?Michele: No, I think it’s a long answer. Because it’s a lift answer, right? It’s not like, Oh, I had an accident, or it’s like you live through this. So it’s not a short answer. So absolutely makes so much sense. So So for all of you moms that are out there, and parents really going through like, Hey, I didn’t realize the normal and somebody related this to me. Sometimes for military people, they don’t know they have, they need they have PTSD, because everybody around them has PTSD. So it’s not until they retire, and they go someplace else. Everybody’s looking at them, like what’s wrong with you, there’s like, but I’m normal for the military. But I’m not normal for civilian life. And you’re trying to figure out what that is. And that’s oftentimes when they realize they need help. But it’s a whole other thing. And I absolutely agree. Sometimes we have to step away, and really be around other people to try to figure out what is normal. And like you said, for the black community, we’ve been through so many traumas, what is normal and getting mental, because you had to be as strong as possible to endure so much, and put up so many blocks, blockades and so many layers of skin to fortify, sometimes you don’t know what you’re feeling, because all you’re really trying to do is survive. And I mean, the thing is to you’re told, are you seeing over and over and over again, right? It’s like, we don’t get press, you know, too blessed to be stressed. You know, all that good stuff, which I actually do believe in. But that’s a whole nother for another time of the breakdown of that. Right? And it has to do with stress levels and making sure that you’re protecting yourself from stress, stressful elements. But when you think about it, right? It’s like when when do we ever have this conversation even on our families in our households anytime, right? I remember I was talking to a friend of mine. And we were like, you know what, I don’t remember my mom actually like going on vacation. I don’t remember my mom sitting down and going, you know what, I’m just gonna take some time for me and self care. That was good. It was like always go go, go, go Go taking care of this one. That one, you know, whoever in the family or whatever needs to be done. It was always a constant go, go go. So to your point, I love the fact that you you’re able to relate it back to like military, like it really truthfully, is that you’re living in it. And I mean, I got like I said, it was like, several years. I was just like, Oh, this is just that this is motherhood and I need to just be happy that my kids are okay and just roll with it. But it’s like no, as a person as a woman like you said earlier, what not you know not mom but Jessica right as a woman. How do we understand that we’re still human beings even though we’ve given birth to a human being, we brought this person to the earth. And we populate it though. And I tell people, I’m, I’ve populated the world enough. I think I’m done with kids. I’ve run enough amazing human beings here. I’ve populated the earth. I’ve done my job, I think I’m done. But we’ve populated the earth. And we’ve brought these new human beings into the world, but also we ourselves, we still need care. It isn’t like, okay, now, that’s all I am. That’s all I do know, you still need to step back and take care of yourself and figure out what makes you happy? What makes you joyful? What, what do you want to do with your own life after you’ve given birth to these people, because they do take a lot of time and energy, but then also to your happiness is important for them to see it to be able to be happy and fulfilled in their own lives. So it’s a full circle thing. And it really is definitely important on both levels. So we talked about Jessica, we’ve talked about your y, let’s talk about how, how do women want? So we’ve talked about some signs, there’s like, okay, something’s changed. I know, I need some assistance. What are the things they need to be doing? Or how, how can they get the help they need?Jessica: Yeah, so the first step is to recognize that there is a problem, because also, self stigma is a huge issue, right? Because for the longest time, and I’ll speak for myself almost before anyone else, I was like, nothing’s wrong with me, I’m fine. I’m fine. And those words, I’m fine, are such a way to kind of cover up everything because you don’t want to deal with it. Right? It’s really difficult to deal with the fact that that’s happened. Really difficult to deal with that, right? It’s hard. And if we go back to what the the media portrays as depression, and crazy, right, first and foremost, you think, Oh, my gosh, I’m gonna do something really drastic, or I’m gonna start talking to myself or you know, any of those things, right? I am diagnosed with depression and anxiety, right? And anxiety looks like, you know, heart palpitations, it can come on in any time, you know, so I know that there’s certain things I need to do to manage that. But it has to start with me first, acknowledging the fact that this is a problem, and that I need to fix it. So first of all, is acknowledgement. And I have this analogy called heal, right is helping others educating yourself. advocacy and awareness, and then love loving yourself, right? So it’s heal. And you really need to encompass all of those things into it and then seek help, right? So whether that’s medication, I don’t take medication myself, but I know therapy was a huge thing. But also just truly to be honest with you, decreasing our levels of stress. That was huge. Just to say, Oh, you know what, I don’t need to talk to you your negative energy. So finding out exactly what you need. And if it’s a therapist, if it’s medication, if it’s a yoga instructor, if it’s meditation, if it’s deep breathing, whatever it is that you need, finding out what it is that you need, and going in and doing that self analysis and self awareness work. And that’s what’s going to help you.Michele: I love it. Thank you so much for that. I I remember talking to one of my sisters, about why she was doing all of these things for her kids. I said they’re big enough. I said, let them do it. And so she’s like, no, no. Well, I ended up getting the kids in the afternoon, I trusted my nephew. Now one of my nephew knows how to cook hot dogs, sausage, eggs, and frozen pizza. like a duck nails. He should survive, right? He could survive his sister, his oldest, she loves to cook. And she like, Oh, you want somebody who? Like No, this is like I’m hungry. So I guess she bought the cook. If I’m busy, I’m working on my business. And he was like, I could see him in the kitchen from where I was working. So I just taught him how to do stuff. And so sometimes, some of the stress can be relieved because the kids are growing older. And so they can handle that responsibility. And it’s not as though you say, Oh, go out and get a paycheck at 10 or 12. You’re just saying you’re tall enough now not to get burned. It’s just those little things. So what are some other actionable things that you found that you’ve been able to accomplish within your family to reduce your stress as to having to try to do 50 11 million things in 24 hours or less? You know, I
will tell you, Michelle, it’s really, it’s hard for us to do that. We struggle with that ourselves. We have six kids and we struggle with that ourselves, of delegating and telling them you know, they do have chores. So they do have that but as far as like I mean, they cook pizza, you know, like those things, but I think too, I want to I want to talk a little bit about that because What I’ve noticed specifically, and I’m only gonna speak specifically for black women, because that’s who I’ve noticed. And that’s what I’ve been around the majority of my life is that we use that as a mechanism for coping, that everybody needs us so that we can deflect from ourselves. So when we need self care ourselves, we put more into more people, we start to do more for more people to get away from the fact that we need to take care of ourselves, right? That’s a huge, huge thing. When I see women that come to me on the digital side that have five or six different businesses, and all of them are failing. Although Why are you? Why are you doing all this? Oh, because I got this, I got this. No, no, no,Jessica: let’s take a step back. If we really go deep within what’s really going on, I’ve just been feeling so you know, whatever. And this is the way we deal with it. So crazy, right? We deal with it by doing more. And putting more on the plate and going to feel valued when we really need to step back and go, Oh, wait a minute, what’s going on inside of me? And then how do I deal with that? So that I can, I can take a step back, I can actually take care of myself and not feel guilty about it. Because we fill our heart a large level of guilt. Whenever we do anything that’s for ourselves that we feel like isn’t serving someone else, immediately, when in essence, it serves everyone, when we’re able to take a step back. So I wanted to address that because it’s something that I see a lot that a lot of people don’t talk about, but we do it so well, sometimes, right? We can manage everything we just do and all this stuff, that we’re doing all that stuff, because we don’t want to deal with what is right in front of us even working a lot. So that was a huge one for me.Michele: Thank you so much for for that clarity. I think a lot of women needed to hear that. I get asked even without a mother, oh, you can really help people like I don’t have time, I’m not adding any more to my plate. Because you’ve asked me like we showed you like I said, if you want me to help you do X, Y and Z, then I will help you do X, Y and Z. But I’m not open this up to the world. Because like you say it is you only have so many hours in a day, and you have to come first before you can help anybody else. So for those of you that like Oh, well. I gotta help with the church, and they got to help with the kids. And then my neighbor, nice, nice cat sick like love. The church has 458 other members. It’s only five of you doing the work. The other 400 when they show up in a no lights, there’s no food, there’s no choir, either they don’t step up, or they go find a new church. And now you have a whole new congregation of people, you figure out who can really do the work. That’s all I’m gonna say. But it’s the same thing within your circle as well. So really, really reflect on that and really do so. And I can say one thing about a pandemic, I’ve seen more moms they’ve taken on more, but they are more open to ordering, right, they’re like order to groceries. And so they’re delegating out a using technology we wouldn’t have 1510 years ago to really help along those way. Even though many of you are highly overwhelmed right now between work, and homeschooling, and not having an outlet. So we we definitely want you to take in these tips right now. And definitely, definitely seek some some help. So Jessica, as we wind up any final words and thoughts, and be sure to let everybody know how to reach out to you, especially as it pertains to maternal mental health.Jessica: Yeah, so you can find me here on LinkedIn. Jessica, you can look, I think, actually, I think my handle is at Joel speaks. So you can find me there on LinkedIn and on Instagram. I have a lot of fun on Instagram. So definitely check me out on Instagram. It just speaks digital but my maternal health advocacy works happens on my Instagram page at maternal health speaker, I actually have a website full of virtual things that you can help yourself kind of get through if you’re having a bad day or if you just need a place to release or you’re just looking for resources. I have a whole website dedicated to that. So if you go to maternal health speaker link in my bio will take you there and you’ll be able to hear some really amazing stories as well as get into some meditation and listen to some some rain and all that good stuff that I put together on that website for moms because I was looking for that kind of thing and I couldn’t find it online so the virtual wellness room is there and available to everyone out all moms if you want to access it so that’s how you get in contact with me. Feel free to DM me, my DMS are open.Michele: Now remember his jaw Jessica a walker speaks digital that speaks with an as you know my Southern twang, but definitely definitely follow her. And if you’re on tik tok, you got to check her out over there too. She might do some funny stuff. I’m just saying you can catch On a grant to, but I think you’re you’re like it more on Tick Tock. But if you’re looking for her maternal health information, you now know where to go. Jessica, thank you so much for joining me today sharing your story sharing why this matters and how many moms can get the help they need.Jessica: Can I just say one more thing? Sure why this superduper matters is because all these children are growing up in the homes with if a mom is going through something, and the behavior of the child is reflected, right, we need to deal with the issue of the core and not just skip over that part of it. Right? Yes. But let’s see what’s happening inside of the home and how we can actually help the home be a really nurturing place for that child or that student, you know, whatever element you’re connecting with this young person in, so that way we can change the whole paragraph paradigm around maternal mental health. Keep mom safe. Keep moms healthy, both mentally and physically and also take care of generations to come.Michele: Absolutely take care of mom first. As someone said, Mommy is sick, all bets are off. So we got to make sure mommy is well, everybody. Thank you for joining us today. We will be back next time. Until then. Have a great week. Bye, everybody.

Michele: Hello, hello everybody. This is Michele Heyward. I am so happy to have you here with me today. We have a fantastic topic. And we have a fantabulous guest with us. Today we’re going to be talking about can women really show up authentically. And we have Ruth Joy Connell with us today, Ruth joy was sup How you doing?RJ:
Hey, Michelle, thank you so much. I’m excited to be here. I’m excited for our conversation. I feel like we’re gonna, you know, strike a lot of chords with people who are watching and like, have a really needed conversation. So I’m really excited.Michele:Now, if you’re catching the audio of this, it’s, I’m cracking up because the joy on her face like the smile is like, Oh my god, we’re ready to get into this. I love. So, so I didn’t know exactly how long this might be a two part series. So just just hang out with us. Take it with us in the chat. If you’re catching this on a podcast, leave a comment, email me, we
want to know what your thoughts are on all of this. Okay. So right now, we are talking about women showing up authentically. First, let everybody know more about you and and where you are in the world. So they won’t get you confused with another Ruth joy.RJ: Yeah, no problem. So as you said, Michelle, my name is Ruth joy Connell, I am the founder and primary consultant at RJC consulting. And so what we do here is we specialize in implementing sales systems, specifically around lead management, client retention and project management systems for both individual consultants as well as consulting firms. And really just helping them make sure that their systems are supporting their growth and their financial revenue. So that’s just kind of high level a little bit about me, or a little bit about what I do, but about me and who I am as a person, I am someone who absolutely loves 90s music, like my absolute favorite era, ever. I also am located in Canada. So I’m located in Ottawa, Canada. So a lot of the people that I connect with online are primarily in the states and we work with clients, you know, in Europe, too. So I tend to kind of be always like the the person informing other people about Canada. Kind of what goes on here, especially during the winter months. And then, yeah, so and I was gonna mention the store called winners, but I know it’s not in the States. Most people won’t know it, but it’s my absolute favorite store. If you ever come to Canada, just stop by it’s a it’s a must. It’s a must visit.Michele:
It’s not Is it like decorated for the holidays, you’re around?RJ:No, I just, I love it. Because it’s kind of one of those stories that has everything of you can find like really high level. I know they have it in the states a different version of it. Like, we have homesense here, and I think you guys have home goods, right? Yes, yes. So the same parent company, TJ, TJ x, the parent company, it just we have winners here, and homesense. And then you guys have marshals and Home Goods there. So it’s very similar to that. It’s just one of those stores where you find these random things, but they’re always great finds. So I always just love walking around. They’re like I step into the store, it tells me what I need. And then I walk out with, you know, whatever it winter said that I needed that day.Michele:
They needed your money. Tell you what you need with lunch, you know, wintrust is where your money resides. legitimately, I’m like the poster child for win. Now I
spend it.
Okay, now, this topic is not my idea. It was my idea to do it on here. But this was really a discussion that you started yesterday. And I don’t want to get to where you started this discussion. But I want to talk about really where the question came from, in showing up. So let’s talk about a women showing up authentically. What happened when you asked that question.RJ:
Yeah, so to give a little bit of context. For me, one of the things that we’ve been migrating over to actually just, you know, even kind of before that, finding the platform, the ideal platform that the target clients that we’re looking for, you know, where they hang out where they express their concerns and struggles and then make connections, all that kind of stuff. That’s been something that’s that’s taken us a while to do, especially as social media keeps changing, and all these kind of things and learning new platforms, and you know, the latest trends and blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff, which I’m sure if any, you know, if you’re like me, you’re just over it. And so that has taken us a while to do and as we have gotten clearer about our target audience, and the problem we solve, more specifically, we’ve been looking to focus almost unilaterally on LinkedIn as our primary platform, our primary source. And so as I’ve been learning more about the platform, and how to show up and how to take the content that I’m used to putting out there and package it in a quote unquote, professional way, that’s something that was there was a misalignment there for me in the way that I wanted to show up. And the way that I felt like I needed to show up, especially on this platform, this is something that, you know, it’s still fairly new to me in terms of engaging on a regular basis, and being intentional with connections and relationships that we’re building on this platform. So in that regard, it’s new, or, you know, still learning it in my in my case. And so, with that being said, one of the things that I was looking for on this platform is how other people were showing up, and not necessarily for a formula of this is how you do it. But I think at the time I was looking for permission, if that’s the best way to put it, I was like, Can I show up as myself are other people showing up as them as themselves on this platform. And it wasn’t permission for, you know, from anyone in particular, but just that this platform allows, in the space, I should even say, a platform, this space, rather, allows for for people to show up authentically as themselves and still make genuine connections and attract the people that, you know, they’re looking to have in their community and or be of service to. And so that was something for me that I was struggling to see. And that led to a kind of internal conversation about, is this something that this space allows for? And if not, do I want to be in this space? Do I have to be in this space in order to make those connections? And where do I go from here? So that was kind of the thought process that led to, you know, that discussion that came up about how to show up authentically, regardless of the space you’re in, whether it’s a platform, whether it’s a community, whether it’s a workspace, whatever space that might be in for you. So that was kind of the back story behind the discussion today, essentially.Michele:
And, and as you’re talking, what came to mind, were two words, code switching. Yeah. And for a lot of white people don’t know what that is. Just bring your professional self, no, is literally being taught that the way you speak is not acceptable to your your locs in my not being acceptable. And in order to be acceptable is to speak a certain way. Right? You will not appear as aggressive. So wearing glasses. So you’re a pure nerdy, right. Having relaxed having a chemical process in your hair. So a comb goes through when my hair was never in your hair was never designed for that. Yeah. So when people say, Oh, well, we want our employees to feel as though they, you know, we want our employees to know they can come as themselves really, when I walk in with locks, like, Well, you know, they don’t fit really tight HR standards, your HR standards are built around whiteness. And a lot of times when we say people say come in authentically, it’s like, you don’t even know what that is for a woman. Exactly. Go ahead.RJ:
Go ahead. No, what what I was reflecting on as well is who sets the standard of authentically, who sets the standard of permission, where does that come from? And is that standard in itself inclusive of the different perspectives, the different people the different, you know, beliefs, experiences, all that kind of stuff that we’re looking to honor and realizing that authenticity and inclusion is not about you know, giving people a warm welcome or you know, paying lip service to You’re welcome here you can quote unquote, be yourself. But it’s a commitment to honoring in whatever space you are honoring the individuality of people, their beliefs, their the you know, the way that used to show up their culture, etc, all those kinds of things, commitment to honoring that in various circumstances and also creating the space for that to be okay when faced with opposition, whether it’s from internally from your company or, you know, stakeholders As our clients or community but creating the space to say no, this is actually what we believe. And so I was just as you were speaking, and talking about code switching, it’s who said that standard of the code that we’re switching to is the right code?
Who said that standard?Michele:
Exactly. And I sit here in South Carolina, and about an hour away as Charleston or the coast. And there are two cultures there. Gullah Geechee and literally just having friends like you like 90s music. So I was, you know, 80s 90. I was born in the 70s, late 70s 80s, and 90s, like my, my young adulthood and everything. But literally in college, they would go home and they would come back and like you went home, just like, I guess I could I hear the geek and they would work to change their accent. So they would have such a thick, Geechee accent, right? When you look at that, it’s acceptable to come from a foreign country, but it wasn’t acceptable to have a local dialect that is directly related to the black culture here in the state of South Carolina. Wow. And so when people are saying, Come, authentically, I go You lie. Because we don’t understand what you’re saying. And and, and especially here, when we speak American Yeah, I don’t know what American is, you know, no idea. No idea. I know, especially you even in Canada, like that’s not one of the options that we they teach here? No. But it really goes to like you say, who defines what authentically is? And what we push back on when we were having this discussion yesterday. If people do not accept you for who you are, they are not your people. Meaning that is not the place for you to be. Yeah. And it is not an inclusive culture. Right. It is not accepting of people. And when they say be authentically you, it is meaning you must conform to our definition of whatever that is. And I really, you know, because LinkedIn is toted as a professional platform, talking about the death of George Floyd, talking about microaggressions in the workplace, talk about racism, sexism in the workplace, like, Oh, this this isn’t Facebook, it is a professional platform, what we should be addressing every area of issues. Yes, because it directly impacts people. Yes,RJ:
I completely agree. And something you said that I kind of want to circle back to when you when you talked about, like showing showing up authentically, and that if you’re not able to do that those people are not your people. And so I think part of the you know, the challenge, and I’d love to get your perspective on this part of the challenge specifically for women, is that, that, you know, we are both women in business, and I’m sure we are connected to a lot of women in business. And so I think part of the challenge is the acceptance of the people you’re around or desiring the acceptance for the of the people that you’re around for the purpose of for those who are leading businesses for the purpose of the revenue that that comes with, and or the connections that that leads to, or the opportunities that come from them. So even though sometimes we might be able to recognize, okay, these are not necessarily my people, I think sometimes the fear of being able to say no, and say, you know, if I cannot show up in this space authentically, I’m not going to show up in this space at all. I think sometimes the fear of missing out on what could potentially like what were saying no to and not just that person, but maybe the revenue, the connections, the opportunity that is attached to them. I think that that contributes to the challenge to say no, and even if you’re not leading a business, per se, but you’re in a leadership role you are in, you know, part of a larger team, maybe that for you is the opportunities for advanced advancement or for support, or, you know, in various areas. And as I’ve been reflecting even on my own personal experience, but then having more conversations like this, asking other women about their experiences as well, I find that this has kind of is a recurring theme. It’s not even so much, or at some, in some cases, it’s not so much about the acceptance itself, but rather being able to have a seat at that table so that I can do x y Zed. That’s important to me. And so I think that that’s almost like a underlying challenge that that that causes us to be able to code switch that causes us to feel like okay, we can’t show up authentically, I have to show up in this particular way or won’t get to my end goal, whatever that end goal may be for that individual.Michele:And I absolutely agree with you. I think we’re at a pivotal point right now, in many ways, meaning, we’re in the midst of social justices social change movement at a really tipping point in a peak. And we’re pushing back on these norms, because they are not norms for us. It’s not normal, it’s been very uncomfortable. Have code switch, and we’ve played it to those places. And we have not seen improvements, right? sacrifice for generations to not have changed not have equity. And we’re pushing like, you know, what, if you’re not going to give it to me, when I play by your rules, I will no longer play by your Yes, yeah. And I and I really see that. And the other part of that being a tipping point is the internet, the access not only to other people, but the ability to generate an income, where you do not have to go into these environments, where you are, you feel the need, or the necessity, necessity to coast, which Yeah, really be able to provide for your family, and to feel happy or happy, or you know, make a mortgage and pay off your student loans or whatever your needs may be. And I see those are two driving forces in this push back to defining what authentically is, and no longer code switching for many people in the professional world, as well as opportunities. Yeah, because opportunity now is no longer in Ottawa, Canada, right? The opposite is internationally. So if you can only find 5%, in Canada, that 5% in Canada is now five more percent in, in the US 5%. In the A, it is a different game play. I see overall, for us just just because of technology.RJ:
Yeah. And I agree with that. And I am to your point, the the access to technology, the access to global reach and global impact and global community, I think it’s strengthening the voice that we have behind this, because to your point, if there was 5%, in Canada, who are advocating for, you know, spaces that allow us to show up authentically, in that honor, who we are in every respect, if there was just 5% of that here in Canada, that I can join with the 5% in the US and join with the 5% you know, in the UK and anywhere around the world, and we become a collective that speaking to the individual problem, but also the individual company, or the individual space, or, you know, calling those things out collectively to say it’s not just Ruth joy, it’s not just Michelle, it’s all of us saying this is a problem, whether or not we live in that country, whether or not we are affected directly by that, you know, individual space, this is still a problem. And this is not acceptable. And we’re not willing to, we’re not willing to to settle for it anymore. Realistically, we’re showing up how we are. And if we would love to be able to work alongside you, we’d love to be able to partner with you in some respect. But we are also willing to stand our ground and to honor our own authenticity, and to do what we need to show up, excuse me, and to create the space that we want to be able to show up authentically in and we’ll partner with the companies will partner with the teams and the leaders and the you know, the advocates for social change that are willing to honor that authenticity for our for us and our community as well.Michele:
Absolutely, absolutely. I love that. So now how are you going to show up on LinkedIn?RJ:Yeah. Okay, so you know, it’s funny, I so I was telling you, right, before we started our live that I’m gonna be doing more of these lives, because I love to talk, I really do. And before, one of the things that I was doing, as I was especially creating content for the podcasts that I have, one of the things that I was doing was like I was infusing my personality, but also tapering a bit of my personality. And not because, like the primary reason was because I’m like, ah, maybe you know, for the person I’m trying to speak to maybe I should say, like this instead of that. So as I was reviewing the content, I said, No, I’m not gonna, I’m not going to tailor it for what I think they want to hear. I’ll make sure from a strategic standpoint, that the language and all that kind of stuff is targeted, as it relates to the service that I provide, or, you know, the the area, my area of expertise, but outside of that, if I want to show up with lashes and lips, then I’m gonna do that if I decide not to, then I’m going to do that as well. If I want to, you know, make a joke about something that happened in one of the episodes of Fresh Prince of Bel Air like 25 years ago, I’m gonna do if I want to talk about, you know, this is how we do. Then I’m gonna do that too. If it gets my point across So all of that personality that I felt I was struggling to kind of let come through in that content. Live is one of the best and easiest ways for me to do that. And so I’m kind of leaning into what is going to naturally allow me to show up as myself. So that’s what I’m doing on LinkedIn. So you will see me coming live more often.Michele:
I love and I’m excited for this. So if you haven’t follow Ruth joy, you should definitely go follow her. Follow her here on LinkedIn, you want to connect with her, you want to be checking out her live. So what’s the name of your podcast? So theRJ:Yes, podcast, the name of the podcast is called the profit scale. And we focus primarily on all things money related, especially as it relates to pricing systems and making sure that you are set up as it relates to sales operations and the systems that are within your business to scale profitably, to grow profitably, and to ensure that your business is sustainable. So those are kind of the primary topics that we talk about on the podcast.Michele:
I love it. So for those of you considering consulting, you’re, you’re already in business, you know where to go. ROI, because I have a lot of women in STEM, who do a lot of engineering consultant improvement. Some are tech founders. So this is who you want to connect with, to help you get your systems in process. You’re a genius at what you do, you’re expert. So I definitely, definitely want to make sure all of you know where to go. Plus, she gonna show up as her  Yeah. I’ll just put it out there, you won’t always get these lashes, you know, this is a sometimes depending on how I’m feeling, or if I had enough time in the morning to actually do this. So I hear you everything else. With you look, I just showed up set up like Alright, let’s go. We have three minutes left, which was I’m proud. And literally, it’s like that some some days. You know, you show up? It’s showing up is the hardest part. Literally.RJ: Yeah, I completely I completely agree. And I think I think it’s gotten easier for me, the more I’ve leaned into what feels authentic for me, because then it doesn’t, I feel like I’m showing up like I would on it on a daily basis and not like I have to mentally prepare to put myself in this position or to, you know, show up in a particular way. So I think the more intentional we are as women and not not even just us individually, but also our peers and our colleagues, the more intentional we are as a community to ensure that we are we ourselves first are showing up authentically, because that in innately gives permission to others to do the same as well. And so that the more intentional we are about doing that, and then communicating and honoring the fact that others can show up authentically as well. I think it makes it easier to show up to want to show up and then to enjoy it while you’re there.Michele:
Absolutely. And I want to add something here. I don’t know if any of you follow Kiki Palmer on Instagram, but she talks about her acne and how all these people she’d been to several doctors and nobody could really really figure it out and she finally found a doctor who told her her acne was tied to PCs. And, and she was like she said she’d been wearing all of this makeup to hide it. And it really felt good to know what was causing it. It wasn’t you know it’s an issue. But she she was tired of her hiding. And she really wanted to show up. And so whether if you love wearing makeup and that is what you want to do it but if you feel as though you need to hide who you are. People are going to judge you. They’re judging you even with the makeup so I say to you and be comfortable with you. Because it really are the I can’t remember she the senator a Congresswoman who has alopecia. And she like she just stopped wearing her. Her wig, huh? Right. And he was like this feels really great. to no longer have to hide and to talk about it. really encourage you because there’s somebody else out there dealing with it. And you’re still not alone. So no lipstick, no makeup, no earrings. So necklace. Hey, my summit out dress up for that.RJ:But my whatever makes a difference to see especially other women being able to live and show up in that power that they hold of this is what is me and I’m going to show up in that way. It is so encouraging to see that variety to see that diversity to see that Showing up does not have to look like this. Again, I feel that that inherently encourages other people to, to know that you have options. And it’s not just you don’t just have to show up in one way, you don’t just have to make wear makeup. I remember for my wedding, I didn’t want to wear makeup for my wedding. And my friends, like a few of my friends are like, you have to wear makeup, I don’t usually wear makeup on a regular basis, like I said, the most you will probably get are the lashes and lips, if I’m feeling good, you’ll get some color. If it’s like, if, you know if I’m feeling good about and not because I have anything against makeup, but I just I’m most comfortable. This is how I’m most comfortable. And so, um, I remember, you know, I was talking about that. And then I don’t remember one of I think it was my one of the vendors that I was working with, for for the for for my wedding had suggested that I changed the contacts because I’ve always worn glasses, like suggested it to contacts and same with my photographer, and he’s like, you know, the glare and whatnot. And so I’m like, if you can’t explain from glasses, I’m concerned about my pictures. I’m concerned, I feel like this is, you know, this was kind of a make or break thing. And I was like, No, I want to be comfortable in this, you know, space and, and it doesn’t have to be a wedding. But it’s it’s the desire to feel comfortable. And we often have to champion that it’s okay for us to want to feel comfortable in the space that we are, which in itself is frustrating. But it’s, it’s our it’s our right. And it’s something that we have to be intentional about and that we have to be firm on that. Whatever that comfort whatever that authenticity looks like for you advocating for it and not taking no for an answer. And then in those cases where they’re in or in those spaces, where you know, the standard or the norm doesn’t allow you to show up in that odd spot authentic self, then challenging what that norm is, and requiring an answer. That’s one of the things for me that like I one of my favorite questions is why Okay, I understand you do things like this, why helped me understand the thought process behind this helped me understand, and then giving scenarios where I feel that doesn’t that doesn’t fit? And maybe it’s because I’m like systems minded. And the first thing I was looking for are the gaps. And so I’m always first trying to identify the gaps, maybe it’s just the me thing, but I encourage you to ask why to challenge and say, you know, why does it have to be a suit? Why does it have to look like this as a very simple example, I’ll give before I turn it back over to you, Michelle was if anyone has ever watched the show suits in that show, the first half if not more, Jessica Pearson is one of the main characters that shows up in the show and I absolutely loved her outfits in there because they like they they looked I should say traditionally or what is considered traditionally professional, but they always had so much personality and so much flair to them. And it was just one of the first times that I saw a woman showing up that wasn’t fully covering everything Are you know especially because she was in a leadership position you know, in that firm and so it was just so encouraging to see that hey, someone in leader like at the highest level of leadership she was the managing partner is showing up as her authentic self with her you know, wearing her dresses that have her back fully out wearing sleeveless wearing, too. It was just it was so encouraging for me although it was a TV show, it was like okay, you know there are there are women out here because yes, she’s a character but there are people like her in real life as well.Michele:
I love it. I absolutely loved suits but yeah, that that’s a good point. I never even thought about Ooh, that’s nice. Oh girl, I was watching every dress every dress every shirt. I was like Where can I find these? There was also about being classic and classy with your clothing even from the main character so that’s just one of those show they probably spent a fortune on quality. But he always made it look good. But everybody Ruth joy thank you so much for joining me this has been so much fun. Um, even though it was a definitely a difficult topic. I’m glad we went through the levels and and talked about it, but really peel back some things that others need to consider whether for themselves or the culture they are creating in organizations and what does it really mean to be authentic?RJ:Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Michelle. I’m glad that this that we were able to have this conversation and my hope is that it at least you know, as a seed for others to have that conversation within their own spaces. Whether it’s Women or anybody, just that if you are operating or leading a space especially, I think it’s an important conversation to be having on an ongoing basis.Michele:
Alright, thank you so much, everybody. I will see you next time and we will have another great topic. Bye everybody. Bye