Why is disturbance necessary for real change to happen? And how do leaders learn to welcome it rather than avoid it – both within themselves and in their organisations?

These are the key questions we discuss with Deborah Rowland in this episode of Changing Conversations.

Deborah is a pioneering expert on organisational change and change leadership. She is the best-selling author of numerous books, including Still Moving, and her latest book, From Ought to Is, which is piping hot off the press.

In this conversation, we share:

• That leading change starts with looking inward first – noticing your own patterns and reactivity.
• How to use emotions not only as personal, but also as systemic data to gain insights into the group and organisation.
• The difference between action – the unconscious repetition of past routines – and the movement that happens when patterns are disturbed.
• Why “edge and tension” is among the most important outer skills leaders can use to create movement, even though it is often avoided or poorly handled.
• How practices like check-ins, changing physical space, and asking “What’s the conversation we’re not having?” can change conversations and organisations.

We’d love to keep this conversation going. To continue the conversation with us, send your reflections and questions to [email protected].

You’re also welcome to use this episode as a conversation starter by sharing it with your colleagues and friends.