We think of shame as destructive, manipulative, and toxic. And it can be all those things. But shame can also be a powerful and healthy part of our moral formation. In this fascinating conversation, Kevin talks to Te-Li Lau, a professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, about his recent book Defending Shame: It’s Formative Power in Paul’s Letters. Together, Kevin and Te-Li explore the pervasiveness of our therapeutic assumptions, the central theme of shame throughout the Bible, and good and bad ways to think about shame in our own lives.

Timestamps:

Introduction and Sponsor [0:00-1:28]Guest Intro: Te Li Lau [1:29-8:44]Positive Shame? [8:45-11:43]Defining Shame [11:44-17:28]East vs. West [17:29-25:36]Shame vs. Guilt [25:37-35:26]Is God a Bully to Use Shame? [35:27-40:48]The Solution for Shame [40:49-47:50]Paul's Use of Shame [47:51-55:43]Reintegrative Shame Theory [55:44-1:00:22]Modern Objections to Shame [1:00:23-1:05:39]