Gospelbound

By The Gospel Coalition, Collin HansenNews Religion & Spirituality Christianity News Commentary Religion

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Gospelbound episodes

October 06How North Korea Became the Most Religious Place on Earth (with Jonathan Cheng)
What if I told you that one of the most powerful evangelical revivals of the 20th century, and one of the greatest missionary success stories of all Christian history, gave way in one generation to the most enduring, notorious, oppressive, anti-Christian communist personality cult of all time?
Now you know why I say that Jonathan Cheng’s new book, Korean Messiah: Kim Il Sung and the Christian Roots of North Korea’s Personality Cult, is one of the most important books I’ve ever read. I wrote about the famous 1907 Pyongyang revival for my 2010 book A God-Sized Vision: Revival Stories that Stretch and Stir. I knew that Presbyterian missions in Korea contributed to the large number of Korean Americans who attend and lead Presbyterian churches today. And I knew of course that Pyongyang is the capital of communist North Korea today, so something bad must have happened.
But the missionary success story was so much greater, and the fall from grace was so much farther, than I imagined. Jonathan Cheng worked on this book for more than 10 years, and the depth of research shows. Originally from Toronto, Cheng lives in Beijing and works as the China bureau chief for The Wall Street Journal. Before that he worked as the Korea bureau chief, covering both North and South Korea. He’s one of my most helpful people to follow on X, for news from and about China. Let’s dive in to this fascinating and horrifying story about the Christian origins of North Korea’s Kim dynasty.
Editor’s Note: Please note that due to a technical issue during recording, the video quality becomes choppy towards the end of the episode. The audio was mostly unaffected, so we chose to keep the full conversation for listeners to enjoy.
Resources Mentioned:
Korean Messiah by Jonathan Cheng
God-Sized Vision by Collin Hansen
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1 hr 17 min
September 22How Do You Want Your Children to Remember You? (with Michael Keller)
I want to tell a story about how I learned something that changed my life. It was the first Keller Center retreat in 2023. Our inaugural fellows, a couple dozen of them, didn’t know each other well. We had just finished a team-building scavenger hunt crisscrossing Manhattan. We settled into a Sunday school room at Redeemer West Side on W 83rd Street. We were about to do a Zoom call with Tim from his hospital room. It was the last time many of us spoke with him. He would die within weeks. He left us notes on what he wanted to see from the center.
In that exercise before we talked to Tim, I led a discussion on the Great Dechurching, the unprecedented decline in Christian practice in the United States since the year 2000. I’ve led this exercise many times before and since, without incident. The goal is to identify what events and trends really shift culture. In this case, a majority of Americans had the internet in their homes by 2000. Add smartphones and social media and now AI and you can see that the dawn of the information age is perhaps the biggest story of the 21st century so far.
But the exercise didn’t sit well with many of our fellows. We weren’t yet comfortable with each other. Some wanted to dig a lot deeper with ideas and a lot further back in history. Others saw the internet more as a vehicle rather than the driver of cultural change. Some just misunderstood the exercise altogether.
I’ll never forget Michael Keller’s response. He pulled some of his dad’s notes on how to share the gospel in our current age. He described various overlapping and conflicting cultural narratives that help us make sense of the world, apart from God. And then he showed how Jesus critiques and ultimately completes those narratives. It was brilliant work.

The whole center rallied around this idea. We recorded and wrote the group study Making Sense of Us: Exploring Six Stories that Shape How We Live. Michael Keller wrote the foreword. And we rallied behind a new book, The Stories We Live By: Seven Cultural Myths That Fail Us and the Story That Never Will, published by Zondervan. It’s written by Michael and his father, Tim, based on those notes we saw in 2023. Ever since that day I’ve adapted what I learned into my own teaching, not just about cultural narratives, but about how we think about the various deep levels of cultural change. And I’m eager to talk now about this book with Michael on Gospelbound. We’ll also discuss another new book Michael recently wrote, Talking to Kids About Hard Things: Honest Conversations When Life Gets Complicated. He wrote that book with Rebekah Hannah and published it with New Growth Press.

In This Episode:
00:00 – Why the best gospel presentation cannot save your children
00:58 – How an early Keller Center retreat shaped The Stories We Live By
05:02 – How Michael and Tim Keller began the book together
07:11 – The seven cultural stories shaping modern life
09:37 – Why identity may be the defining cultural narrative of our age
11:10 – Cultural narratives as Christian heresies
13:52 – The strengths and failures of expressive individualism
15:58 – What Michael hopes The Stories We Live By changes in the church
18:15 – How cultural narratives shape Christians too
20:27 – What remains in Tim Keller’s unpublished notes
23:06 – How Michael handles ongoing criticism of his father
25:35 – Tim Keller, “third way” criticism, and diagonalization
26:50 – What church planting taught Michael that he could not learn secondhand
29:56 – Redeemer’s transition after Tim Keller
30:49 – Why the best way to honor Tim Keller is not to imitate him
32:28 – Introducing Talking to Kids About Hard Things
35:09 – Why Michael was skeptical of parenting books
36:36 – “Your kids need your repentance more than your perfection”
38:25 – Why apologizing to your children matters
40:14 – The gospel in action through forgiveness and repentance
41:40 – Why technique cannot produce saving faith
44:01 – How to help children feel safe asking hard questions
45:17 – Teaching like Jesus by asking questions
47:53 – How parenting reveals who we really are
49:18 – Control, repentance, and what parenting exposed in Michael
51:52 – How Michael wants his daughters to remember him
53:27 – Collin on integrity between public ministry and private family life
54:58 – Integrity, not perfection
57:29 – Final reflections and recommended books
58:16 – Outro
Resources Mentioned:
The Stories We Live By by Michael Keller and Timothy Keller
Talking to Kids About Hard Things by Michael Keller and Rebecca Hannah
Making Sense of God by Timothy Keller
The Reason for God by Timothy Keller
Center Church by Timothy Keller
Making Sense of Us
Handing Down the Faith by Christian Smith and Amy Adamczyk
Gospel in Life
Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics
The Gospel Coalition
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59 min
September 08Why AI Will Write Your Next Sermon
Like many others, generative AI has become a nearly daily part of my life in the last couple years. I’ve found help for home repairs. Diet and exercise plans. Meal preparation. Trip planning. Personal health assessments. Footnote formatting. Even baseball swing and pitching advice for my son. Combine the best of Google and YouTube, tailored to my specific needs and situations from changing windshield wipers to fixing sump pumps, and that’s how I’ve used AI so far. I know I’m not even scratching the surface of what agentic AI can and will eventually do. I’ve seen friends spin up websites it would have taken years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to build just five years ago.
But do you know the most common use? It’s not one I’ve employed myself. And it’s not one I’d recommend. But according to Harvard Business Review, it’s remained perched on the top from 2025 to 2026 even as other common uses have wildly fluctuated up and down the charts.
It’s therapy and companionship.
If you’re like me, you’re probably wondering about how AI chatbots could be the reasons companies like OpenAI have been valued at $852 billion. Or why AI has become the widely and quickly adopted new technology in human history. Isn’t AI supposed to revolutionize business? Upend every profession and transform entire economies?
Perhaps.
The trend is clear. It looks like many others have been turning to AI for help in fixing their toilets. (Claude was wrong in my situation, by the way.) More commonly, AI is less of a computer interface and more of a, well, human face. A friend to share jokes and silly pictures. An imaginative storyteller. A trusty counselor to assess your new relationship. A medium who can predict your future. And a wise confidant who promises not to lead you astray (or tell you what you don’t want to hear).
Given the wild predictions about AI’s unparalleled value, how can these cases be the most common ways we employ the technology? Is your daily horoscope worth $852 billion?
Now, what if I told you this is exactly what the builders of AI expected us to do?
That’s the vision behind a new book, The AI Apocalypse: A Survival Guide for Humanity, which I edited along with Skyler Flowers and The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. I spoke on my introduction from the book at a recent TGC regional chapter meeting in Nashville.
Thank you to TGC Nashville and Edgefield Church for hosting and recording this podcast in front of a lively and engaged audience. You could have heard a pin drop when I talked to these (mostly) pastors about why AI will write their next sermon. Now is the time to work through the ethical implications together and decide where to draw the line.
In This Episode:
0:00 AI's Unexpected Role as a Human Companion and Counselor
7:21 AI, Love, and the Lessons from Her
13:37 The Role of AI in Defining Human Purpose
20:17 The Impact of AI on Literacy and Human Creativity
28:51 The Irreplaceable Human Touch in Preaching Amid AI Advancements
38:39 Navigating AI Ethics in Church, Family, and Education
40:41 The Impacts of AI on Society and Economy
Resources Mentioned:
AI Apocalypse edited by Collin Hansen

Empire of AI by Karen Hao

The Odyssey by Homer

Social Acceleration by Hartmut Rosa

Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury

Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics

The Gospel Coalition

Recorded (Podcast) by The Gospel Coalition
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46 min
August 25Why Pascal’s Wager Still Pays Off (with Graham Tomlin)
The patron saint of cultural apologetics is Augustine of Hippo, author most famously of City of God and Confessions. Second place is up for debate. But you’ll get a lot of votes for a 17th-century disciple of Augustine, the Frenchman Blaise Pascal.
Graham Tomlin describes Pascal as the “man who made the modern world” in a new biography. Tomlin is the director of the Centre for Cultural Witness in Oxford, England. He writes of Pascal that “it is hard to think of anyone who has impacted so many fields of human endeavour in such a short time.”
Here’s a taste from Tomlin about Pascal’s accomplishments: he basically invented probability theory; proved the existence of the vacuum; laid the foundations of integral calculus; conducted the first modern scientific experiment; developed theory that made possible the hydraulic press; demonstrated that air has weight; designed and built the first mechanical calculating machine, which led to what we know as the computer; set the trend of wearing wrist watches; and built the first public urban transportation system in Europe.
And did I already mention he was one of the most effective and enduring cultural apologists of all time, perhaps second only to Augustine? Tomlin writes, “His was a Christianity founded in a profound experience of God, an intense devotional life and a form of faith that offered a radical alternative to the comfortable assimilation to culture that the Church of his day often seemed to promote.”
Let’s talk to Graham Tomlin about this remarkable man, who lamented man’s inability to sit quietly by himself, who observed, “The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing.”
In This Episode:
00:00 – Pascal’s wager and living as if Christianity is true
00:49 – Introducing Blaise Pascal, the cultural apologist who helped make the modern world
02:36 – Pascal’s remarkable inventions, including public transportation and the Pascaline
05:42 – Augustine’s influence on Pascal’s theology of desire, fallenness, and grace
08:11 – Why Pascal trusted reason in science but not as the starting point for faith
10:46 – Pascal’s “Night of Fire” and encounter with the living God
16:43 – Why Pascal went to war with the Jesuits
20:20 – Jansenism, Calvinism, and Pascal’s understanding of grace
25:51 – The hiddenness of God as an argument for faith
32:38 – How human misery points toward human greatness
39:46 – What Pascal’s Wager actually means
48:45 – Pascal, Jonathan Haidt, and the psychology of belief
49:05 – “Make it attractive”: Pascal’s enduring strategy for cultural apologetics
51:59 – How Pascal anticipated both the modern and postmodern worlds
59:22 – What Pascal would say about modern science and scientism
1:01:43 – Why Pascal’s faith speaks to people who have looked into the abyss
1:03:21 – Outro
Resources Mentioned:
Blaise Pascal by Graham Tomlin

Pensées by Blaise Pascal

The Provincial Letters by Blaise Pascal

Confessions by Augustine

City of God by Augustine

The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt

The Happiness Hypothesis by Jonathan Haidt

The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics

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1 hr 4 min
August 11How Kevin Vanhoozer Bridges Biblical Studies and Theology
Back in 2024 Kevin Vanhoozer’s book Mere Christian Hermeneutics: Transfiguring What It Means to Read the Bible Theologically won the Christianity Today book award in the academic theology category and also won The Gospel Coalition book award in biblical studies. I couldn’t even begin to account for all the other awards he’s won for earlier works.
I had the blessing of studying under Dr. Vanhoozer at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. And I was challenged in this book just as I was challenged and encouraged in his courses. Mere Christian Hermeneutics helps all of us who live on the far side of the “demise of biblical civilization.” When Westerners want to tell the story of the world, we no longer open the Bible. Vanhoozer aims to reconnect us with Scripture as our means of enjoying “covenant fellowship with the triune God.” I loved this summary in the book: “How an unholy people can come into the presence of a holy God is the chief complication in the biblical narrative to which the gospel is the solution.”
So let’s get into mere Christian hermeneutics, reading the Bible spiritually, the Transfiguration, and much more.
In This Episode:
00:00 – The transfiguration of Jesus and the way Christians read Scripture
00:39 – Introducing Mere Christian Hermeneutics
01:58 – What makes this approach to hermeneutics “mere”?
03:26 – How different reading cultures divide Christians
05:01 – Polarization among Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians
06:52 – The loss of Christianity’s cultural influence in the West
07:46 – Does Catholic authority solve Protestant interpretive pluralism?
10:43 – What does it mean to interpret the Bible spiritually?
13:23 – How the transfiguration guides Christian interpretation
16:08 – Why Christians should not separate Jesus from the Bible
18:24 – Johannes Oecolampadius and Scripture’s Christ-centered scope
21:57 – Bridging the divide between biblical scholars and theologians
25:05 – Kant, critical thinking, and the rise of biblical criticism
27:34 – The hidden assumptions modern readers bring to Scripture
30:14 – Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and teaching systematic theology
32:37 – Cultural hermeneutics and the formative power of culture
36:24 – The current state of theological interpretation of Scripture
39:29 – Potential dangers in theological retrieval
41:40 – Protestant catholicity and unity amid secondary disagreements
42:02 – Vanhoozer’s work with the Alexandrian Institute
44:35 – His four-volume systematic theology project
46:19 – Brahms, young theologians, and reasons for hope
47:13 – What pastors can learn from Henry James
48:54 – Outro
Resources Mentioned:
Mere Christian Hermeneutics by Kevin Vanhoozer

Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis

Meditation in a Toolshed by C. S. Lewis

The Bible Made Impossible by Christian Smith

The Death of Scripture and the Rise of Biblical Studies by Michael C. Legaspi

The Portrait of a Lady by Henry James

The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics
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50 min
July 28Jen Wilkin Wants to Help You Age Wisely
Only a couple years out of college, I told my coworkers that I looked forward to being old. They weren’t just dismissive of that comment. They were indignant. On one level, I know why. I understood little to nothing at age 23 about the hardships of aging and caring for the dying. I hadn’t yet suffered many of life’s inevitable pains.
At the same time, I looked forward to greater wisdom, maybe even defeat of some sins and temptations. I was excited about all I could learn if the Lord granted me years. Maybe I even had a couple Bible verses in my head, like Proverbs 16:31: “Gray hair is a crown of
glory; it is gained in a righteous life.” Or Job 12:12: “Wisdom is with the aged, and understanding in length of days.”
Both those verses are cited by Jen Wilkin in her excellent new book, Dust to Dust: Aging Wisely in an Anti-Aging World, published by Crossway. If you take my youthful naiveté at its best, I was recognizing what Jen distinguishes in her book: the world says to age is to diminish. But the Bible says to age is to deepen. Now in middle age, however, I experience the good and bad: the invisibility because no one would possibly notice my appearance. But also the freedom: because I have that middle-age dad’s superpower of not caring what other people think of my appearance.
I didn’t realize how much I needed Jen’s book, and I’m eager to ask a whole bunch of questions now on Gospelbound.
In This Episode:
00:00:00 – Jen Wilkin reflects on her mother’s death and the symmetry of life
00:00:49 – Why Collin has long looked forward to old age
00:01:20 – Introducing Dust to Dust and the contrast between cultural decline and biblical deepening
00:02:31 – Why modern culture values youth over old age
00:03:55 – Jen’s first moments of realizing she was aging
00:05:46 – How aging feels different for men and women
00:07:49 – Why many people fear becoming a burden
00:10:08 – Assisted suicide, dependency, and surprising cultural opposition
00:14:47 – The “chiasm of life” and how beginning and end mirror each other
00:21:02 – Why midlife offers a unique vantage point for perspective and wisdom
00:24:50 – Caring simultaneously for children and aging parents
00:29:12 – Why caregiving is not a season but a default setting of life
00:32:10 – How modern longevity has changed the experience of family and aging
00:36:25 – “You will not surely die”: the anti-gospel of age denial
00:37:52 – How suffering narrows our priorities
00:40:34 – Honoring parents and the fuller meaning of the fifth commandment
00:45:44 – Retirement, crystallized knowledge, and later-life vocation
00:50:46 – A theology of aging before a debate about anti-aging practices
00:55:33 – Jen’s regrets, sanctification, and learning to honor parents well
01:00:26 – Final reflections on aging, family, and hope
01:01:07 – Outro
Resources Mentioned:
Dust to Dust by Jen Wilkin

From Strength to Strength by Arthur Brooks

The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis

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1 hr 2 min
July 21How AI Plays a Gospel Imitation Game (with Christopher Watkin)
You might think AI is the most exciting technological development of all time, and you’ve been vibe coding before the rest of us had ever heard the term.
Or maybe you think AI is the most dangerous technological development of all time, and you’re desperately hoping someone will step up to stop autonomous weapons and programs powerful enough to thwart any existing security system.
Or maybe you’re somewhere in the middle. Maybe you still don’t know what all the fuss is about.
No matter where you are, I know I can recommend a new single-season TGC podcast called Silicon Spiritualities, hosted by Christopher Watkin, a fellow at The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. My friend Chris also contributed two chapters to the forthcoming book I edited with Skyler Flowers, titled The AI Apocalypse: A Survival Guide for Humanity. I love hearing Chris teach on just about anything. But his reflections on AI have been especially insightful for me, and I’m eager to welcome him back to Gospelbound to discuss these two new projects.
In This Episode:
00:00 – The hidden human cost of AI training
00:36 – Introducing Christopher Watkin, Silicon Spiritualities, and The AI Apocalypse
01:48 – The gospel story Silicon Valley tells about AI
06:01 – Investor hype, idolatry, and AI religions
08:09 – Data workers, exploitation, water use, and the wider AI industry
12:03 – Avoiding both AI doom and AI hype
14:26 – Is AI more like the internet, electricity, or agriculture?
17:20 – Why Christian anthropology is not threatened by AI intelligence
21:01 – Why a frictionless life can become passive rather than free
25:30 – Using AI with integrity in writing and creative work
27:16 – Watkin’s practical uses of AI at home and in his work
29:34 – AI companionship and the desire to be known and loved
34:10 – Mutuality, reciprocity, and what AI cannot share with us
39:19 – Consciousness, imitation, and participation
41:51 – Transhumanism and the temptation to outgrow humanity
45:22 – Why studying AI has made Watkin more excited about God
48:29 – AI, existential risk, and the problem of the human heart
54:31 – Alignment, sycophancy, Her, and the imitation game
59:37 – Closing remarks
Resources Mentioned:
Silicon Spiritualities | TGC podcast hosted by Christopher Watkin

Deep Work by Cal Newport

“Computing Machinery and Intelligence” / “The Imitation Game” by Alan Turing

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Check out The Pour Over Podcast — politically neutral news for people who want the facts without the spin, and with a brief biblical perspective

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1 hr 1 min
June 30Andrew Wilson Wants to Help You Pursue Happiness
Andrew Wilson is one of the happiest guys I know. So it only makes sense that he would write a book called Happiness: What It Is, Where to Find It, and How to Make It Last Forever, published by Crossway. He’s the expert. I’m delighted when I see Andrew at a TGC conference, or a retreat for The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. I look forward to every chance to spend time with him. He writes in this book, “Nothing is more honoring to a friend, a child, or a spouse than saying they make you happy. Nothing is more demeaning to them than telling them they don’t.” I can say, with no reservation, Andrew makes me happy when we’re together.
Ok. But where does that leave the rest of us? If we’re not naturally happy? If we’re not feeling happy right now? If we’re not hanging out with Andrew? The Declaration of Independence, 250 years ago, put happiness at the center of life’s aim: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Andrew covered that statement in his excellent earlier book, Remaking the World: How 1776 Created the Post-Christian West. Given the anniversary, I plan in this interview to sneak in a question or two about that fateful year. And we’ll discuss much more, including the difference between joy and happiness, whether God promises happiness, and why millennials grew up to be sad.
In This Episode:
00:00 – What makes us genuinely happier
00:40 – Why Andrew Wilson wrote a book about happiness
04:29 – Happiness, sorrow, and biblical examples of deep joy
07:26 – Is joy different from happiness?
11:53 – Does God promise happiness to Christians?
13:35 – Why millennials became less happy as adults
19:41 – Freedom, responsibility, and the limits of liberation
23:21 – The “problem of superfluous happiness”
26:01 – How pursuing happiness helps us fight sin
29:23 – Why virtue, gratitude, and humility make us happier
32:53 – Compassion versus empathy
34:15 – Turning delights into disciplines
37:06 – Remaking the World and America’s 250th anniversary
39:48 – What makes the United States unique?
47:08 – Discovery, defense, temperament, and optimism
48:55 – Closing and book recommendations
Resources Mentioned:
Happiness by Andrew Wilson

Remaking the World by Andrew Wilson

Generations by Jean M. Twenge

The Happiness Hypothesis by Jonathan Haidt

The Expulsive Power of a New Affection by Thomas Chalmers
— — —
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51 min
June 16New Resources Help You See God by Connecting Scripture (with Ben Gladd)
Different preachers get excited about different aspects of the sermon. Some collect and deploy excellent illustrations. Others just nail the application week after week. Others can really reach your heart.
What really fires me up are the connections between the Old and New Testaments, the way God’s plan of redemption unfolds in familiar and new ways from Genesis to Revelation. So you know I’d be excited about an excellent new resource, the CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament, edited by G. K. Beale and Benjamin Gladd. This study Bible includes a robust cross reference system that will help you see Old Testament quotations, allusions, and parallels within the New Testament so you can see all 66 books as a unified story from God. You’ll also find book introductions, study note commentary, articles, charts, and infographics.
In This Episode:
00:00:00 – Why continuity between Old and New Testament wording matters
00:00:41 – Introducing the CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament
00:01:53 – Ben Gladd and the mission of the Carson Center
00:04:06 – Why another study Bible?
00:07:06 – Green and blue fonts: changing the reading experience
00:08:24 – Quotations, allusions, and the “connective tissue” of Scripture
00:11:06 – Why Old Testament allusions matter for Bible study
00:12:46 – John 6, grumbling, and Israel in the wilderness
00:13:46 – Mark 1, John the Baptist, and the burning bush
00:15:41 – “Fishers of men” and Jeremiah 16
00:18:55 – Reading Revelation through Old Testament “emojis”
00:22:07 – John 1:1, Genesis 1:1, and Christology
00:27:47 – How the apostles read the Old Testament
00:31:19 – Guardrails for identifying legitimate allusions
00:35:36 – Do English translations obscure biblical connections?
00:42:27 – How pastors can use the study Bible in sermon preparation
00:44:19 – Why pastors should use the Old Testament for illustrations
00:48:31 – The Carson Center’s Concise Bible Commentary
00:53:44 – Learning from Don Carson and G. K. Beale
01:00:11 – Dictionary of the New Testament Use of the Old Testament
01:00:44 – Biblical Theology Briefing podcast
01:02:34 – A future Connecting Scripture Old Testament
01:05:19 – Closing
Resources Mentioned:
CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament edited by G. K. Beale and Benjamin L. Gladd

Keep Watch for Biblical Allusions by Ben Gladd

ESV Study Bible

CSB Study Bible

NIV Study Bible

Concise Bible Commentary from the Carson Center and Crossway

Dictionary of the New Testament Use of the Old Testament edited by G. K. Beale, D. A. Carson, Benjamin L. Gladd, and Andrew David Naselli

New Studies in Biblical Theology series

Pillar New Testament Commentary series

Biblical Theology Briefing Podcast with Ben Gladd and Matthew Harmon
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1 hr 6 min
June 02C. S. Lewis, the New Atheists, and the Failure to Disprove God with Alister McGrath
Alister McGrath remembers life as an atheist back in the late 1960s. He believed only what could be proven to be true. And he judged religious believers for trusting in an irrational fantasy.
Looking back, though, he can see an emotional basis for what he thought were purely rational conclusions. He didn’t want God to exist, because God would threaten his freedom. As an atheist he could do whatever he wanted. He could be the center of the universe.
Now as a Christian and one of the most well-known apologists in the world, McGrath sees how much desire determines what we believe about the universe. He says, “The human desire for unaccountability leads to the metaphysical conclusion that there should not be a God.”
Last summer McGrath and I caught up when he was the keynote speaker at a Beeson Divinity School conference on Persuasive Preaching. I was invited to engage and respond to his presentation. Alister is a theologian and Christian apologist with a particular interest in the relation of science and faith. In fact he recently retired as a professor of science and religion at Oxford University.
I know him as a godly encourager and kind interlocutor. I’ve learned a lot from him on various subjects, especially C. S. Lewis. In fact, I was listening to him at Lanier Library in Houston when he inspired me to begin work on a book about Lewis and Winston Churchill. So I’m excited to talk with him again about atheism and apologetics and a heavy dose of Lewis.
In This Episode:
00:00 – Why belief cannot always be proven
00:37 – Collin introduces Alister McGrath, atheism, desire, and C. S. Lewis
02:19 – McGrath’s move from atheism to Christianity in 1971
03:58 – Conversion as a process rather than an instant transformation
05:07 – C. S. Lewis’s “Is Theology Poetry?” and Christianity as a big picture of reality
06:30 – Christianity as aligning with the deep truths of the universe
08:01 – The New Atheists and the power of rhetorical certainty
11:06 – Why the New Atheist movement faded
13:26 – How apologetics has changed over the decades
16:29 – Tim Keller’s apologetic influence
20:25 – Integrating apologetics into preaching
23:22 – Faith versus fact—or faith versus faith?
24:28 – Enlightenment assumptions and the limits of proof
26:33 – Morality, Christianity, and secularized Christian values
28:31 – Truth, meaning, and transformative belief
30:07 – “Bleakness is not an indicator of truth”
31:53 – C. S. Lewis, Winston Churchill, and wartime apologetics
35:03 – Lewis, The Problem of Pain, and the BBC broadcasts
36:52 – Lewis’s faith, academic career, and public apologetics
39:53 – The Weight of Glory and spiritual flourishing in wartime
42:39 – Lewis on marriage, forgiveness, and the Holocaust context
45:29 – The Guardian, archives, and The Screwtape Letters
48:44 – McGrath’s storytelling apologetics and closing reflections
49:38 – Gospelbound outro
Resources Mentioned:
Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis

The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis

The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis

The Great Divorce by C. S. Lewis

The Weight of Glory by C. S. Lewis

The Air We Breathe by Glen Scrivener

Dominion by Tom Holland

The Dawkins Delusion? by Alister McGrath

Making Sense of Us by TGC and The Keller Center

The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics
— — —
📫 SIGN UP for my newsletter, Unseen Things:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/gospelbound
🎁 Help The Gospel Coalition build up a renewed church for tomorrow. Let's Build Together: Donate Today at https://www.tgc.org/together
🎧 Don’t miss an episode of Gospelbound with Collin Hansen
▫ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/gospelbound/id1499898207
▫ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0kRYr5FTKr5ru1N7MR65Br
✅ SUBSCRIBE:
▫ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thegospelcoalition
▫ TGC Updates: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/newsletters
Use code “GOSPELBOUND” for 25% off tuition.
Learn more at downlinememphis.com/virtual-institute or email [email protected] for group pricing and discounts.
Check out The Pour Over Podcast — politically neutral news for people who want the facts without the spin, and with a brief biblical perspective

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
51 min

About Gospelbound

From the publisher's feed

Gospelbound, hosted by Collin Hansen for The Gospel Coalition, is a podcast for those searching for firm faith in an anxious age. Each week, Collin talks with insightful guests about books, ideas, and…