Secretary of State Marco Rubio has released the Trump administration's plans for reorganizing the State Department—a first step toward reducing what the White House calls a bloated and inefficient bureaucracy. The proposed reforms could reshape U.S. engagement with the world, ending America’s human rights advocacy, shuttering key diplomatic offices, and threatening the very infrastructure that supports global U.S. leadership. With Congress holding the purse strings and foreign governments watching closely, how far will these reforms go—and at what cost to American influence and values abroad?

In this episode, Jacob Heilbrunn speaks with Paul Saunders, the president of the Center for the National Interest. Saunders served in the George W. Bush Administration from 2003 to 2005 as Senior Advisor to the Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs.

Music by Aleksey Chistilin from Pixabay