Guest: Judy Readding Hosts: Ben Long, Kristin Keith, and Liz Rasmussen Join us as we talk with Judy Readding, a Larned native and someone who lived on the Fort Larned Ranch before it became a National Park Service site. Judy's perspectives offer a unique look into the Fort's early years as a historic site as well as its life as a working ranch.

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Judy Readding: But growing up here was it was it was wonderful. We had the Perez's on the south and Mama and Papa Perez and all their kids. What was funny is you'd be here, you know, just doing your thing and somebody'd walk up-- like I said we always had people coming in and out, so I never really thought much about it. They'd walk up and wonder where the fort was. So, I like it now. It's nice and it's good that it's preserved.

Phil Grossardt: You're listening to Footsteps: the Fort Larned Podcast, the official podcast of Fort Larned National Historic Site. Join us this season as we examine how and why the National Park Service preserves both cultural and natural resources and how the stories within are discovered, preserved, and told. Enjoy this episode as we talk with Judy Readding about her experiences on the Fort Larned Ranch before it became a National Park Service site.

Ben Long: Welcome Judy, glad to have you here. As we get started why don't we-- why don't you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your personal history, your connection to this place and things like that.

Judy: Well, I moved here when I was 8 months old, they tell me, I don't remember it. My mother graduated and father graduated from K-State and came here, my father to run the ranch. So I basically was here until I graduated from high school.

Ben: Nice.

Kristin Keith: And you were third generation here?

Judy: Yes. E.E. Frizell, my great-grandfather was the first, and then Edward DuMont, E.D. Frizell, and then my father Robert Reed Frizell lived here, and they were the last. He's the one that turned it into or got it started to State Park and then National Park. So, my sister Jane, my brother Larry, and we were the first three kids here. Then when my mother died, I had two half-brothers that were also here for a while. Now the youngest Neil who lives in Great Bend now was only here for a little while cuz by then we'd moved to Panama to grow coffee.

Ben: I've heard only a little bit about that bit of story. How long were you in Panama?

Judy: I lived there two years.

Ben: Okay.

Judy: And taught school there and then traveled a bit and then came back to Kansas to Aspen actually. The best time of my life was in Colorado. But growing up here was-- it was it was wonderful. We had the Perez's on the south, and Mama and Papa Perez and all their kids. And by the way they never learned to speak English cuz po-- Spanish cuz Papa wouldn't let them. So, there were the Perez's over here and then over here were the Douglass's. They were a Mormon family. Both families came with my great-grandfather, I think. Papa Perez, I think, you know, came across and started working early on. And then Clyde Douglas, I'm not quite sure when he came but he was there my whole life. And Donnie and his brothers and sisters all lived here too.

Kristin: So, do you think your life here at the ranch prepared you for living abroad then at all?

Judy: I get-- I mean we always had people in our house. My dad was just one that would bring home stray anybody's. We had a lot of people come and live with us. We had people from Panama even before we moved there. Like kids that would come and live with us and go to school here. So, you know, we kind of had a different upbringing, truthfully. But it was always very, I mean there were no-- nobody ever told you when to come in. You know, Donnie and I just kind of roamed. We'd ride the horses went to El Dor School. My dad went there all of his eight years, same teacher, 35 years.

Ben: Wow.

Judy: Lucinda Reede, it was-- she was something. And I learned to read when I was in kindergarten. It's all sex appeal. I learned to read because Johnny Lewis was so cute, and he was in third grade. And you got to sit with whoever you could read with, so I learned to read real fast. But it was a great way to have an education. You know, now when they talk about combining classes and I just have to laugh because that's how we, you know, that's how we were raised.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: And that's a whole story in itself. The parties we used to have out there. It was a fabulous education. And so, both Donnie and I went whole eight years there and then we went into Laned to high school.

Ben: How big was the high school when you were going there?

Judy: Numbers I'm not good with. Honestly, I'm not quite sure, I think our class was maybe 150, but I wouldn't swear to it. Not a whole lot of us left anymore. But yeah, it was, you know, it was a good way to grow up. And when I left was just-- when I went to college, they were leaving getting ready to go to Panama. So, I never came back really after college.

Kristin: So, you've talked about being here and just roaming free and--

Judy: Pretty much.

Kristin: Some of your memories from school. What's one of your other favorite memories from growing up here?

Judy: Oh, they're quite a few. One of the things I used to love to do, and I was so glad when they cut down all the trees, I used to hate to come out here because it was so ugly with all the trees and the flowers and the shrubs, all gone. But when they cut down the trees, they left one tree out there by the Guard House. And that was my reading tree, because back then the way that you irrigated was with ditches, you know, with water and that tree was right by that ditch. So, I would leave in the morning, go get some tortillas from Mama Perez, saltshaker I carried in my pocket, and I'd go over to that tree, and I'd read and stick my feet in the water. You know, it was just a good way, I always think of that when I see that tree. I took my granddaughter's out there oh several years ago because I wanted a picture by it and you know we did all this posing up by the tree and my husband Clark all of a sudden says, "Do you realize that that tree is covered with poison ivy?" So we real quick, you know, not on my watch are my granddaughter's going to get poison ivy. So, we came actually I think to a faucet out here and just washed everybody down and they were okay. But no, I was really glad that they left that tree. And Donnie and I-- mean we used to when the barn, you know the top part had hay in it, how we ever were allowed to do this I don't know, but we had a big swing, you know, big rope so we'd swing from one side to the other and then we had caves built out in it. You know, like-- I mean can you imagine the dust? No wonder I've got cancer. You know, I spent so much in there. But you know we just had the best time up in the hay lofts and swinging and having a good time. I would never allow my kids to do it now. And when we had sheep, that was another thing I used to love to do. For a while we had the sheep and you'd have these guys that would come in to shear, and so at the other building they put these great big, tall sacks, you know, to put the wool in when they sheared them. My job was to go up to the second floor after they got it kind of packed in a little bit, so I could get out, and then we'd jump in and stomp on it, you know, and then they just keep pull-- you know throwing them in like this until we got to the top. Well, my mother would not-- you can't imagine how greasy we were. You know, just lanoline or whatever that stuff, and stinky. So we couldn't even come in the house, we'd come in this back door and then we had a shower back there. You had to shower off before you could even get in, but I thought that was such fun. So that was another really special... And you know just hiding and trying to scare the tourists that were always coming over. We used to have a-- well you know the tunnel that they thought was the original tunnel, that the Boy Scouts dug. Okay. People always wanted to see the tunnel. And so, if we knew somebody was here, we would sneak around from the other side and make noises. And one time there used to be a hearse in this building over here. And I think they have it at the Trail Center. It's that same black hearse and it's got like a little coffin in it.

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: I have been known to get in there, [laughter] make noises. Yeah, I mean we really-- we were and oh-- what was her name? The lady that ran the curio shop, we just drove her crazy. Douglas, I think was her name, I can't remember. But she was always telling on what we were doing.

Kristin: So, you would have a lot of people just randomly stop?

Judy: Yeah.

Kristin: So, when you were young, how aware were you of the fort's history?

Judy: None. Not at all. I mean really. What was funny is you'd be here, you know, just doing your thing and somebody'd walk up. Like I said we always had people coming in and out, so I never really thought much about it. They'd walk up wonder where the fort was because they're looking for the wooden kind of Dodge City Fort, you know, and it's like, well, this is it.

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: What you see is what you get. Basically, it was just like anybody else's house except you know I wasn't allow-- I didn't go in town very often, so it was basically just the kids that we had here. Phil Perez who was the grandson of Papa and Mama, and Donnie, and sometimes we'd have a family that would move into this house over here like people that just came to work for a while. You know, they weren't there always.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: But yeah, the Perez's and the Douglas's, they're my family.

Ben: So as it became a historic site did you then start gathering more and more of that-- of the history that was here or was that just sort of...?

Judy: You know, when you're a teenager, you know, a young kid you don't pay too much attention-- I my job was to dust everything. When they put in-- Mabel, that was her name. Mabel somebody Mabel Douglas, Mabel somebody. When they put that curio shop in--

Kristin: Which was like a gift shop?

Judy: It was like a gift shop. You know, my parents would go down to Mexico, they had a lot of Mexican pottery and just stuff. But it was my job to dust it, so I got to dust all that stuff. And then I got to dust the, like when they had oh people that could walk in and look at some of the rooms in that north bu-- or south building they had like that big clock that was in-- it's in the Sante Fe Trail center right now, and it's got zinc in these three big colanders.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: Now ask me why I was messing with that, I don't know. But I know I spilled the zinc, and I'll bet if we went over there right now, we could dip down into the cracks of that board and find zinc in there, cuz there was about that much left, I mean, gone.

Ben: Jeez.

Judy: And for the next two weeks I'd go over there, you know, I didn't tell anybody, and I'd take paper and try to flip it up out of there. You know, now they even break a thermometer in the school Hazmat comes in! So anyway. And now somehow that zinc is all back in there. I remember noticing that the first time I went to the Trail Center and thought "Hmmm, somebody has rectified my mistake". I don't know how that worked, but.

Kristin: Do you have other family heirlooms over at the museum that you know of?

Judy: At the Trail Center?

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: Yeah.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: Like there's a melodeon that used to belong in our house.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: You know, I don't know what else, truthfully. I think there was a little iron over there in the kid's thing that we found one day. We used to go behind the tractors you know when they'd plow, and you'd find all, you know, the Indian arrow heads and little things, but I found a little iron, kids iron one time. And I think that's where it is.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: Might be here, I don't know. It disappeared when I left, so.

Ben: Now we were talking a little bit before the interview about some of the changes that have been made to this house, which used to be yours. You want to talk a little bit about that?

Judy: Well, I don't remember exactly when they had the additions put on, but I remember as a family we moved over to that North Office-- or quarters whatever you call them over there. And we lived there while they were doing this and, you know, they put like for example there was a door there that went out onto a little porch with lots of windows and there was a bathroom there and Mary slept there, and Jane and I slept here. And then the stairway that curved like that, they made it straight and then they had an addition. We called it the Rec Room. And they had a, like a bar in there and a indoor, outdoor fireplace, you know, where that-- they could cook. And it was it was really nice. I liked that Rec Room.

Kristin: So those are--

Judy: Additions.

Kristin: That your family did--

Judy: My family did.

Kristin: That have since been removed?

Judy: Yes.

Kristin: Okay.

Judy: And then there was like, in the living room, there was like a window I don't know what you call those.

Ben: Bay window?

Judy: Bay window put in and the fireplace. See and I don't remember whether the fireplace was there before I was, you know, they did this addition or not.

Ben: We do have a photograph from, shoot, I mean you can see the kerosene lines go into the lights. So you know, I mean-- and a photograph in the corner too, so you can tell it's--

Judy: It wasn't there at a certain time.

Ben: No and the fireplace is there...

Judy: Oh, it is there.

Ben: ...in that one.

Judy: Oh, so it is pretty old.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: So maybe my grandparents. You know, I don't remember that. I don't-- I think that there used to be a beautiful big, what was that metal? Copper shade. I hope somebody got some money out of that cuz that was nice. I would like to know who took our playhouse. My grandparents from Missouri had this little playhouse out back and I imagine that disappeared when the state took it over, I don't know really. But I mean, it had lights, everything. It was a beautiful little house, windows, I mean everything. And it was gone the next time I was here, so I hope somebody's getting some use out of it.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: You know, surely, they didn't just trash it.

Ben: So, as the Park Service has taken this site over, what is your experiences with the changes here and what are some of the points of interest that you've noticed over the years?

Judy: Well as I said to you, I used to not like to come here because with all the trees down, and the flowers gone, and the garden's gone, it just looked so stark, you know. But you guys have done a wonderful job of getting this put back to the original. You know, after they let a few walls fall down and a silo fall down, I don't know if you know that history, you know, when they tore all the vines, I think off this house on this side, I think that wall came off.

Ben: Oh no!

Judy: And one of the silos to the north I think fell when they were trying to do something to it. But you know, once they really kind of got to the-- all the different buildings having you know some renovation and it's just, you know, your living history is fabulous. I think it's a wonderful thing to have. So I like it now. It's nice and it's good that it's preserved. You know, I think it's very undervalued. I think if people knew what was here.

Ben: Absolutely.

Kristin: Sure.

Judy: You know, it'd be incredible.

Kristin: What do you think of the ranch interpretation over in the new museum? Have you had much time?

Judy: I'm sure I've studied it that well. I mean it was-- we had cattle, sheep, pigs, you know, over where the Blockhouse, that's the word for it, is now. We had a pig pen and that was one of the most awful experiences in my life. I was in there doing something, and I heard this horrible shrieking, and it was an ant biting a baby mouse, that wasn't-- even had--. You know, they were to about the same size and I tried to get them apart with a stick. It didn't work. But oh, that shrieking. You never think that a little thing like that could shriek so loudly. But yeah, we had the pigs, we had chickens, Mama Perez had chickens Like said, we always had people, you know, wandering in and out. And it was just it was a good place, unless they stole your dog. We had this-- it was a little Shetland Shepherd they called it. Little fuzzy looked like a regular collie, only little, and somebody took that, and I was mad for so long. I like-- anybody that came is like...

Kristin: Sure.

Judy: ...give them the snake eye. Are you the one who took my dog? We named her Holly Loki because there was this Hawaiian dancer on the Arthur Godfrey Show. Go figure.

Kristin: What's your favorite event to come out to now or to bring your granddaughters out for?

Judy: Well, my granddaughters haven't been here. I'd like to take them to one of the Candlelight Tours, I think those are wonderful. You know, and just your living history, they've been out for a couple of those things. But they're just not close enough to be able to do it. You know, when I want-- if I had kids I think it's wonderful like the little Websters, Shauna's kids, you know people that live here having their kids do the living history, I think is wonderful. I used to-- as a teacher Pawnee Rock, I used to bring my school kids here. And you know, it was always-- they loved it. You know, kids really get into it if they know a little bit about it and I think the living history is a fabulous way to involve the younger people.

Ben: I know whenever I get the chance, I always try to bring up that it is thanks to the ranch era and using the buildings, and they had a purpose, that's the reason that we're able to interpret the history that we do. Because so many of these forts even if they do have something left, usually it's foundations and you have to use your imagination and not only are the rooms not furnished but they just don't exist anymore.

Judy: Right.

Ben: So, I always try to make sure that the Ranch Era gets credit for sort of inadvertently preserving what was here.

Judy: Well, you know, like you say, I don't know how much they were thinking about, you know, preserving it as using it. You know, my great grandfather, you know, those buildings were used and because the construction was so good, I mean, why would you tear down...

Kristin: Right.

Judy: ...the wood? You know, they built on top of them. So you know, the buildings as I was growing up it was just like pens and horses and, you know, junk and this thing I mean it was a paradise for kids. Totally dangerous, just nothing safe about it. And we would just go from one little hobble to another. We had a-- out here there used to be cops of trees and we had a tunnel built in there. Peggy Vratle, who's Jim Vratle's older sister, that was in my class. When she was a little girl, she was visiting and we were riding a horse and swinging from the tree, from the horse, tree. She fell and broke her arm, and she would not go home, she did not want to go back, and she stayed around here for hours with a broken arm. But I mean, everything we did was dangerous, you know.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: Someday we ought to get Donnie Douglas and Phil Perez and talk about the one room schoolhouse experiences because that's a total story in itself, truthfully. The things that we used to do out there, but as far as a ranch we just had ranch things. You know, we had all the critters, and we didn't always have the sheep. For a while we had them in and then as I was older we didn't have them anymore, so I don't know just how long all that lasted.

Phil Groshardt: This year we're happy to announce a new type of event at Fort Larned National Historic Site. Centered around reenactors and living historians, Camp 11 will be a wonderful opportunity for you to experience Fort Larned as an active military post. The event will focus on Hancock's war in the Spring of 1867 and while no programs or talks are scheduled, you're welcome to come and see soldiers drill, play games, and go about their workday as civilians do the same. Join us April the 11th and 12th for this unique look into the past. An event you won't want to miss is this year's Mess and Muster, a collaborative event with the Fort Larned Old Guard and Fort Larned National Historic Site. This year's theme is: Defending the Frontier. Join us on Saturday April 26th as we explore what the soldiers experience was both in garrison and in the field and the tools, they use to accomplish their mission. The evening's program will look at original examples of historic firearms used at Fort Larned all programs are free. A bagged lunch and a catered dinner will be offered: lunch is $12 per person and dinner is $20 per person. A silent auction will also be held at the evening's program. For more information, go to triple www.ftlarnedoldguard.com. Have you ever wanted to experience history for yourself? We're always looking for volunteers to help us present the history of Fort Larned's firearms and artillery. if you're interested in joining the Fort Larned Rifle Corp and Canon Crew historic weapons program, this year's mandatory training will be held at the Fort Saturday, May 3rd and will be an all-day training. For more information, call the Fort at 620-285-6911 or email us at [email protected].

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Kristin: You talked about finding like arrow heads and that little iron. Is there anything else that you found when you were out here?

Judy: No. They used to have what they call Geronimo's jacket out here. Now I don't know if that was true, but in the museum, we have been known to take it and ride horses. I don't know that-- whose jacket it was. It was like a little vest thing. No, but finding things-- and I wouldn't have known what to look for anyway, you know. It's like this is just the house and sometimes my parents were gone a lot, so it was Mary Perez and Douglas's and Perez's that kind of took care of us.

Kristin: Is your name carved on any of the buildings?

Judy: A few places, yeah. You've got a picture of my sister and I; it's the only place we've been together and not fought. But yeah, there a couple of places and I can't even tell you all, but it seems like every time you had a new boyfriend you'd go and scratch it somewhere. It was just a very, I don't know, different way to grow up I think as compared to how my grandchildren are being raised. You know, it's like you have to watch them to do everything. And I understand it, but you know, it's like we grew up I think pretty fast as far as taking responsibility for things and... But I like this house especially. You know, my mother died here, and my father was born here in that bedroom right over there. And they say that Custer stayed there that was-- you know, now George tells me he doesn't think that would happen, but I don't see why not, he was here right?

Kristin: Sure.

Judy: So, I claim it.

Ben: There we go there we go. Now when you were growing up here how close were your closest neighbors?

Judy: A mile I would say, maybe not, you know, you've got Frizzel over here and they had you know a whole pretty much a little town with some people in it. Berger and Skeltons and then over here were Blackwells, EP and John Blackwell lived in-- you can see the house I think it's still there I haven't really looked. So, they were the probably the closest that I-- the ones that we associated with. And then Lewis is-- if you got on your horse, you'd go visit the Lewis's.

Kristin: Why do you think it's important to preserve sites like these?

Judy: Well, I'm not I'm not a student of history, but I know a lot of people are. And to be able to come back and see how things really were, you know, with actual-- I would think would be pretty exciting. You know, I see all these young kids that come from Hays and different places to do your living history, I think that'd be pretty you know important for them. Impactful, I guess.

Ben: So early on in the in it becoming a historic site, I know there are some celebrations out here we had the cast of Gunsmoke, Steve McQueen, people like that I hear.

Judy: That's a whole another interview.

Ben: So, you remember a lot of that going on out here?

Judy: Yeah, I do. I remember sitting down in that bedroom while Amanda Blake-- I had freckles when I was young and you're always putting on lemon juice to get-- her whole body was freckles. I'd never seen anything like that, it was like wow, you know, I guess I'll keep my freckles they're all right. But she yeah, she was putting on her makeup down there. You know, of course Doc Stone, Milburn Stone was- grew up at the or went to school at the El Dora, who was my great-grandmother by the way and that's what they named the school for. But yeah, they were all in here. You know, who was Matt Dylan? Can't think of his name. He just-- one of my favorite stories, I think they put that in the paper I saw just recently, he got drunk and he wasn't going to drive, or ride the horse and I always thought it was Newt Lupfer that told him, but they said somebody else in the paper told him that they'd clean his clock if you didn't get on that horse and ride and parade. And he rode, you know, and the of all those people that were out here, the Culps were the only ones that left I think they thought we were just too small they weren't getting the attention they wanted. But you know, there were a lot of, a lot of people out here and just-- I mean the whole town got into that. Again, that's a whole different thing.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: But I was a jingle bell. Everybody was a bell.

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: You know, of some kind for something. And I kind of get that the Gunsmoke thing and then Larned had a celebration--

Kristin: Yes.

Judy: Right after that. And in my mind, they kind of combined because they were the same type of celebration. Everybody grew beards, you know, wore dresses and it was a fun thing to do.

Ben: Yeah, I recently saw some footage of one of those parades that, I mean the celebration started in town and then moved out here, and there's all sort of things going on out here too.

Judy: Yeah, it was pretty busy.

Kristin: Yeah, I don't know how-- I mean I've had so many calls from people saying you know my grandmother made this dress for this celebration in Larned and I know exactly what they're talking about. And they want to know if we can use it out at the Fort and I have to break it to them that it's not quite right but thank you.

Judy: They couldn't use it out here?

Kristin: No.

Judy: Wasn't the right style?

Kristin: No. Most of them have short sleeves and the straight skirt, yeah.

Judy: Gotcha.

Kristin: But yeah, so many of those dresses around, yes.

Judy: Yeah, that's pretty cool. Going back to that Gunsmoke thing, I remember going to Hollywood to arrange for them all to come here. And we went to the Hilton, I think that's what it was called, and they had little-- they had little cabins that, you know, you stayed in not just in the hotel, and then they had the swimming pool and the hula hoop had just come out. And it kind of, I don't know, I like this story cuz it kind of tells me what my mother was like. We got a hula hoop in Color-- in California and so we were throwing it in the swimming pool, all these people were laying around, you know, sunning and there were no kids, you know, we were the only kids. We'd throw the hula hoop in and then we'd jump in, and I guess some lady made a complaint that we were splashing, and I just remember my mother tearing into her. And I love that story, you know, it's like you go Sarah! It was just a good way to grow up, truthfully. Lots of animals, God I had every animal in the world. I used to have back before chemicals and it would rain, you would have big puddles of tadpoles. Do any of you remember that?

Kristin: Oh yes.

Ben: Yeah.

Judy: You know, so I would have frog condominiums. I'd start out right back here with a tub for the little baby tadpoles, and then when they get back legs you move them to the next one, and then when they start to get their front legs you move them to the next one with a way to crawl out. And there was a guy named Reggie Milhaan that used to-- a lot of teenagers would come out at various times to work, you know, for my dad for just the summer or whatever. That little sucker, he came out, he dumped them all on the sidewalk. And I'll tell you what, he-- I would be hiding behind anything to throw an orange at him or, I was so mad at that guy. He only worked one summer he never came back. But wasn't that a cruel mean thing to do? I mean he would have been in high school. He should have known better than that. Like I said, I could go on and on, yeah.

Ben: Well, thank you for coming on.

Judy: This has been great fun.

Ben: Yeah, I'm glad we're able to get you on and hear some of your story, and--

Judy: Thank you.

Ben: ...and be able to tell that to whoever wants to listen.

Judy: There you go.

Phil Grossardt: As always Fort Larned National Historic Site is open 7 days a week from 8:30 a.m. until 4:30 p.m. and is just 6 miles west of Larned, so stop by for a visit. If you're interested in learning how you can help Fort Larned National Historic Site, give us a call at 620-285-6911 or email us at [email protected] and ask us about volunteer opportunities. Now back to the rest of the episode.

Ben: Welcome to the discussion portion of the episode where we break down the interview and how it applies to Fort Larned. I'm Ranger Ben one of the Park Rangers here at Fort Larned National Historic Site. I do a lot of work with our social media, obviously with the podcast as well, and enjoy living history a lot. I'm also joined by Kristin Keith.

Kristin: Thanks, Ben, for asking me to join you this year. I've been volunteering out here at Fort I think for around 10 years now, I enjoy doing living history working with school groups that come through with some education programs and tours. I'm involved in Fort Larned Old Guard, I'm currently serving as chair, and also part of the Santa Fe Trail Association, our local chapter, Wet/Dry Route Chapter and the Learned Historical Society.

Ben: Also joining me is Liz Rasmussen.

Liz Rasmussen: Thanks, Ben, for having me. I have been volunteering at the Fort for about a year and a half. I really enjoy living history and learning more about the history of Fort Larned, which is so local here in Kansas, it's kind of cool to have something local that has such a big impact on how Larned was established and how the fort was established.

Ben: Yeah, there there's been several times that I've talked with Judy in the past, which is why I wanted to get her on this season. But being able to actually sit down and talk with her for a solid half hour, 45 minutes was really cool and hearing her stories. And especially hearing her perspective as someone growing up here, it was just home. It was the ranch. It wasn't this historic site where all these major historic things happened, it was just every day.

Kristin: Yes and hearing her experiences through a child's eyes was super interesting and it also makes you think, you know, during the fort-- military days there were children out here and you-- I started to think about you know some of the things that Judy was doing surely kids then were doing also, you know, 100 years later. So, it was really neat to hear her stories and then think about yeah, you know, 100 years previously kids were doing the same kind of things out here. Now of course, nobody was stopping by then and saying, "Hey where's the fort?". So, it was really, you know, fun to hear her. She was just going about her business as a child, you know, and strangers show up on your property and want to know where the fort is. You know, and she's like "Well, you're seeing it right now.'' Cuz, it didn't mean anything to her, you know it's just her home, wasn't some you know historic site we know now it was just her home.

Liz: Back to what Ranger Ben was saying about back in the active Fort days, it was normal people just doing everyday things and then once Judy's family had bought the ranch, they were still just doing they-- normal people doing everyday things. That was kind of cool to hear about how it was just, it was just a ranch. It wasn't the fort when she was there. I mean it was, but for her it was, you know, what Kristin said it was the ranch, it was her home.

Ben: Yeah, and too like, almost the inadvertent preservation of the buildings. Like, it wasn't "Oh we should preserve these buildings as best we can so that it can be a historic site one day". It was, "These are good buildings let's use them and let's keep up the conditions of the roofs and the walls and things like that." And thankfully because of that, and because they used that skeleton to build up from and not out, that we're able to have one of, if not the most preserved fort in the country.

Kristin: Right, the use of the buildings were the actual preservation of them. I really enjoyed her talking about her sense of freedom growing up out here. I mean she was isolated, she said she very rarely went to town. But she had said she had so much freedom as a child, you know, she would leave the house in the morning and just do all these different things and then that made me think about the women that came out here, maybe as laundresses but definitely the women who were here with their husbands, their officer husbands. I can imagine how they had a little bit more freedom out here on the frontier as a woman than they would have had back east living under the watchful eye of their families, you know, because of their social status being expected to behave in a certain way. But they get out here on the frontier and I think they, of course, you know, there was a social status out here, but they had a little bit more freedom to maybe be themselves and do some things they wouldn't normally have gotten away with back home.

Liz: Judy talked about how she used to be a little onery and she talked about that hearse that's at the Santa Fe Trail Center. How in that little coffin how she used to hide in there and I thought about that as well what Kristin was talking about officers children back home, you know, they had to act a certain way, be a certain way, and so did the women but out at the Fort they probably had a little bit more time to be actual kids and not have to worry about that.

Kristin: Yeah, I had to laugh about her story about trying to scare visitors because I don't know how many-- so many visitors who've come out here that I've talked to when I'm doing living history want to know if I have a ghost story, you know. They want to know if this place is haunted and now I'm thinking well maybe Judy started that rumor by popping out of different places as a child.

Ben: Yeah, and too I've inadvertently scared visitors doing living history that when they initially see you, maybe you're not moving all that much and so they think you're the mannequin or something like that and then you say "Hi."

Kristin: And yeah, you're dressed out appropriately, yeah. People aren't expecting that, sure.

Ben: No. Like both of you have alluded to, really whenever we're interpreting history, we're putting ourselves in the shoes of somebody else. Maybe someone similar to us, but someone else. And so that's-- that was really cool about the interview but then also visiting sites like Fort Larned or other historic sites, you sort of have to ask yourself "What would I do in these different situations?" Like yeah, so the kids and maybe the wives coming out here, they have a little bit more free time or freedom to do more of what they want. Or if you're going to another place, you see the decisions that were made and when you get right down to it, no matter who made it, be it this high up general, a president, or just someone living there, really, it's just human decisions that we all have to make at the end of the day. And when you break it down, history really is just the story of people. It's not just names and dates. And so really that is historic interpretation is putting ourselves in the shoes of somebody else.

Kristin: Absolutely. I also love Judy's story of her family, and I had no idea that she had done this until we're talking with her, but her family going to California to meet with the Gunsmoke cast, you know, and talk to them about coming out here for the celebration. And I'm like wow, you know, they probably thought they were really big time, you know, going out to California seeing movie stars and trying to convince them to come to Larned, Kansas. So, but what an incredible experience. I mean, she had such a neat childhood, very unique that most people don't get to experience, that's for sure.

Ben: Yeah, when she said that the celebrations where he had the cast of Gunsmoke and other Western stars, that that could be its own episode, I kind of wonder what stories she has about all of those celebrations.

Liz: I like how what just really intrigues me about Judy is how she's watched the Fort go from a ranch to as well preserved as it is now. I remember the first time I ever came to Fort Larned I was probably about 10. The Visitor Center was completely different. And coming to volunteer a year ago, see the Visitor Center now and all the buildings better preserved than they were when I first got there was surprising, in a good way. So it' be really intriguing to go back to really see how it changed in stages to where we're at now, that was intriguing to me. She's, you know, she's had the front row seat to all the changes.

Ben: For those listening to if you ever want to take a look at least some of the perspectives that Judy would have had, our series on social media Fort Larned Footsteps, not to be confused with the Footsteps podcast, takes a look at original photographs throughout the years. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot from the military period, that's another story for another day, but we do have quite a few from the Ranch Era and we've posted quite a few of those too, so you can see Officers' Row or living quarters for them, with full rows of trees in front and some cars from the 30s, 40s, and 50s. There's that perspective inside of uh the Post Commander's Quarters which for them was-- for Judy was her home. But that was from before Judy's time that that photo was taken inside. So, a few of those you can tell are taken from that Ranch Era cuz it looks quite a bit different than it did in the Military Era.

Kristin: And I'm sure she feels like every adult does now when you go and visit your childhood home which just seemed enormous at the time. We should have asked her when she comes back now if it just feels really small.

Ben: I'm with the mazes in the hayloft too, that felt, that felt big. Well, we thank you for taking a listen and we hope you join us next month as we continue to explore these themes, and we hope you join us for the rest of the season as well. Until next time, have a good one.

Phil Grossardt: We thank you for listening to this episode of Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast. Join us next month as we talk with Dr. Doug Scott, who's done extensive archaeology at Fort Larned National Historic Site and countless other sites around the US and the world. If you enjoy listening, please give us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, share Footsteps with your friends and family, and be sure to subscribe to keep up with the latest episodes. Make sure you also check us out on Facebook, Instagram, and X and as always, enjoy the valuable resources contained on our website: www.nps.gov/fols. Thank you for listening and until next time, this is Footsteps: The Fort Larned Podcast.

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